"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a738ce03e5c46beb49e3dacfdbe36cc\u0022\u003ETuesday, 11 December 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289f82cbf25d3406baa03d3944065f910\u0022\u003ETuesday, 11 December 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cc115d1a42344819c8bef290f6a51ad\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fee42b8bc7b54d76b66b7f91ef864d34\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022090e94d5c0d5488d8e95a54f2230eb23\u0022\u003EBenefits\u2014Unemployment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2890c50c154aa8b8230dd07caf9b7f\u0022\u003E1. RUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has she received regarding the number of New Zealanders receiving an unemployment benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002214d7c3f8aa374c52ae14aeddcbfa0a9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d7c3f8aa374c52ae14aeddcbfa0a9e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to report to the House that the number of New Zealanders receiving an unemployment benefit is at its lowest since 1979. Our Government has invested in New Zealanders. We have rebuilt the tax credit system to make work pay and we are providing active support to help people find jobs. More than 141,000 people have come off an unemployment benefit since 1999, which is a decrease of 88 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2246b27b724727a7df189dc98f38cd\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made in reducing the number of young people receiving the unemployment benefit for long periods of time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f13909499d742188bed16367d93e4a7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Great progress. Five years ago our Government made a commitment with the Mayors Task Force for Jobs to ensure that all young New Zealanders are on a clear pathway to economic independence and well-being. That collaborative effort has resulted in a tremendous achievement. This week, fewer than 250 18 and 19-year-olds have been on an unemployment benefit for longer than 13 weeks. That is a drop of 97 percent since December 1999. This afternoon my colleagues and I will meet with the Mayors Task Force for Jobs to look at our next challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e1f910125114d779cc1bd6d1c67da22\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Are people leaving the unemployment benefit only by simply transferring to sickness or invalids benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30fb50139ea4bc18d046e7eaf1e97d1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is no. The reason that most people leave the unemployment benefit is to enter paid employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234565404a54c41149734eeccc42ef7fe\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is impossible to hear the Minister\u2019s reply. I ask the Hon Ruth Dyson to please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f15ee932b1b46559ad55ba7a999d4f9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is no. Most people leave the unemployment benefit to enter paid work. Only 8.5 percent of all unemployment benefit cancellations between September 1999 and September of this year have been as a result of transfers to the sickness benefit. Over the same period, 60,000 people went the other way. That makes a net transfer of 31,000. One-third of 1 percent of unemployment benefit cancellations over the same period were as a result of a transfer to an invalids benefit; and over the same period 450 went the other way. That makes a net transfer of just 2,850. The combination of those two factors is nothing like the 141,000 people who are no longer dependent on the unemployment benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f4de161215548d883d72f3cd9c80c89\u0022\u003EElectoral Finance Bill\u2014New Zealand Herald Coverage\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a480efdc81f94470b8c0e85cef4f6ae2\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statements, in relation to the New Zealand Herald\u2019s coverage of the Electoral Finance Bill, that \u201CThere have been weeks, if not months, with full-blooded attacks, front-page headlines, editorials, attack stories, cartoons, you name it.\u201D, and that complaining to the Press Council \u201Cjust doesn\u2019t get you anywhere\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3ce8773e68d4b7f8847bbe0472e3cd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3ce8773e68d4b7f8847bbe0472e3cd0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes; because that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e55d92f915e4845a01b1eec28f432f4\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about the Government\u2019s confidence in its own bill that in the face of criticism the Prime Minister cannot argue about the specific points journalists are raising but can only smear those journalists as being shallow, error-prone, and making major gaffes because of their limited knowledge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253cf59997ec14214bcede2c44fd6b44f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister was speaking to a group of journalists and journalism students in relation to the nature of parliamentary reporting. On that occasion, of course, she was not talking specifically about the debate around the details of the Electoral Finance Bill; she was talking about the fact that we have a robust media in this country that is sometimes\u2014not always\u2014highly accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f0bd7982934e249b36c8a0190d8c04\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that the Electoral Finance Bill has been widely criticised by almost every other newspaper in the country, by the Law Society, by the Human Rights Commission, and by New Zealand Bill of Rights Act specialists, and does the Prime Minister consider that those people and organisations are wrong in their analysis, as well as the New Zealand Herald?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1066ab6a651498b9c6ba4e554474ccc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: There was a great deal of criticism of the bill as it originally entered the select committee. A very large number of changes were made in the select committee, and, indeed, a large number of changes were made during the Committee of the whole House. That, of course, means that there is now quite a different bill from the one that went into the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeededc9c7ab4e34b0067df11389d382\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister, by mentioning a possible complaint to the Press Council, mean that in her opinion the New Zealand Herald has not been fair and balanced in its coverage of the Electoral Finance Bill, and in fact has deliberately misled or misinformed its readers; if not, what other grounds does she have for even considering a complaint to the Press Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4f8627118b34c12b2b3569f8f928385\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, the Prime Minister was not considering a complaint to the Press Council, because she says \u201Cthere was little point in complaining to the print media\u2019s self-regulatory watchdog, the Press Council.\u201D She was pointing out that the New Zealand Herald has run a campaign. Clearly, it has. A front-page editorial that says \u201Cour view\u201D and \u201Ctheir view\u201D, and where \u201Ctheir view\u201D is simply other newspapers saying the same thing as the New Zealand Herald, is scarcely a balanced coverage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cb53666e9b74daebd956a2fd775daa9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister confirm that one of New Zealand\u2019s primary concerns in the Pacific is to remove the influence of foreign interests in national elections in various countries in the Pacific; and what reports has she seen to advise that it is both a sound policy abroad and one to be encouraged back here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204f345d47cdf446bbef9191cdc73985f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is indeed the New Zealand Government\u2019s position within the Pacific, and of course it is very interesting to see, when one reads The Hollow Men, the very clear evidence of external influence being brought to bear on New Zealand\u2019s electoral process via the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ebcf77aeb34c97b11feaa2c70c6067\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister noted that the Business Roundtable\u2019s John Boscawen paid $9,000 to get a Canadian call centre to make automated calls to 82,000 Aucklanders, urging them to join his rally against the Electoral Finance Bill; and is she concerned that this kind of activity could herald the way in which electoral campaigns could be bought and sold in future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282b1ac44aad045d28431852dcb73330a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, I have seen reports suggesting that Mr Boscawen has spent considerable sums on hiring outside agencies to conduct what has been described as a phone scam. But the fact that Mr Boscawen has also paid for extraordinarily badly put together newspaper advertisements, which no one would have got past the first 235 words of, is neither here nor there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c4678fdcb146b1b6f5a7d226f41f5d\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the key principles of the Press Council that \u201Ca publication is entitled to adopt a forthright stance and advocate a position on any issue\u201D; and has not the New Zealand Herald simply been doing that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227285230fe576426da7c458160c10a2d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The media are certainly entitled to take a forthright stance. Sometimes some of them have difficulty understanding that politicians\u2014on both sides of the House\u2014are entitled to take a forthright stance in response. That is called being in a democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f125267fea594e36ac6f9f445a4285cc\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not becoming a hallmark of this Government that it simply attacks the motives of people and organisations that dare to disagree with or challenge the Government\u2014just as the Government did when it did not like what the Auditor-General had to say, just as it did when the Minister of Finance tried to say that the only reason journalists reported tax cuts was that they were for their own benefit, and just as it has now when the New Zealand Herald has been running a fair and balanced campaign against the Electoral Finance Bill; and do we not all know, on this side of the House, that it is the beginning of the end when the messenger starts to be shot because the Government cannot win the argument?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de01f62c297433380b782fd0d1c67d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That obvious and robust defence of the New Zealand Herald suggests that the member might well be described as the New Zealand Herald\u2019s page-boy from now on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb941b5527943478b7649bfb05c8748\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister recall the New Zealand Herald\u2019s very neutral stance on Peter Shirtcliffe and the Campaign for Better Government\u2014which comprised only three family members and campaigned back in 1993\u2014its 57 editorials attacking anyone who questioned Fay and Richwhite, or, on the question of the Airways Corporation board, its attack on some member of Parliament who had attacked the board chairman, even though the board chairman chaired the board of the New Zealand Herald\u2014and if it was not prepared to disclose that interest, why does he expect it to disclose something now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7609e3b384e4ab7a7fdea6c19ec6b5f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, many things! I recall the New Zealand Herald launching a very similar campaign against the abolition of the right to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which it said would mean the end of our legal system. But one must be fair: one also recollects the New Zealand Herald stating in one editorial that the National Party was doing very well, until Mr Key started to announce policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b07f3ef806c49b382984a79fb1c1258\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has it dawned on the Prime Minister that it is not necessarily the New Zealand Herald that is wrong, that it is not necessarily the millions of New Zealanders who are opposed to this bill who are wrong, and that every organisation around this country that thinks this legislation is wrong is not necessarily wrong itself; has it ever dawned on the Government that for once in its life it is wrong, so why does it not just scrap the bill, as we suggested 6 months ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c36b25755d42c690a740fe9ff5d415\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I suspect that the Government has been wrong more than once in some 8 years of Government; it would be rather surprising if we had not been. I am equally confident, however, that this is not one of those occasions. But the member should not be afraid of robust debate; some day he may want to be able to engage in robust debate with the media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236603aa2ffbc4eee93c13e3a490780fa\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister personally agree that the involvement of ordinary citizens in the review mechanisms for the Electoral Finance Bill should consist of more than just the usual chance to make submissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cfc31bc122348d6920bfb5ee358a039\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is always very difficult to ensure that there is a proper canvassing of opinion from the public at large\u2014particularly on complex issues like electoral law, where there is obviously not a simple yes or no answer around a whole range of matters. I think working through how best to engage in a review that incorporates public participation that is as wide as possible is a difficult matter, and is one that we need to give more time and consideration to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211c5a695384d456d888025192f05e39b\u0022\u003ETertiary Education Strategy\u2014University Equity Obligations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca16c4103534c0a83128b3321bd83d8\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: Is he satisfied that New Zealand universities are fulfilling their equity obligations under the tertiary education strategy; if so, what response does he have to the situation at Auckland University, which one newspaper today summarised as: \u201CFears held for poor, Maori and Pacific Islanders\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022c998b2f84e604dd49a8147fad5e2796e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c998b2f84e604dd49a8147fad5e2796e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E The member asks an important question. The answer is yes, mainly because there will be more university places next year than this year, and more places still the following year. There is an increase in access to universities in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374c35edde2b4e4081186c8f74d583c2\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: What action will the Minister take to ensure M\u0101ori students are not being disproportionately disadvantaged by the restricted entry policy of Auckland University?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222553932d60ba4649a32f4e0857fed49f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not be aware that every university is required to show how it will increase participation and achievement of under-represented groups, including M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students, in its investment plan. Every university does so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022180bcf58e59f4dccac9402528ec1cd7b\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on the increases in student numbers and in funding to New Zealand universities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b062bf535f1849c7befff2b91c78c58d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The funding increase over the past couple of years has been about 18 percent or 19 percent. The increase in student numbers from last year until next is forecast at somewhere about 4 percent or 5 percent. So the number of full-time students will increase, it is thought, from about 107,000 to 112,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a95e72c142428aad51011b24271629\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied with the direction of the tertiary education strategy for regional polytechnics, and will he assure the House that the strategy will not suck young people out of the regions into major cities, increasing the unlikelihood they will ever return?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad2c8af06714e4593db34095f057e71\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think if there is any trend at all in the way the polytech funding and plans are going, it would be to increase the amount of in-region activity, not to decrease it. So, all other things being equal, that would see the opposite effect to the one the member suggests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd22db88bb84e0daa36944598f9c183\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Given the response to my question, how then will the Government honour its commitments in its tertiary education strategy to support affordable, equitable access to tertiary education across the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87ac8fa619a43fd8dbf95b24b3a79a3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be aware of 8 years of activity to increase the affordability of education for New Zealanders. In the case of university students, the number of M\u0101ori students has increased in recent years\u2014it is now up at around 13,000; it used to be 12,000 or thereabouts a few years ago. For Pacific Islanders the increase has been even greater. It has gone from about 6,000 in 2000, to about 9,000 now. These are useful increases. I am not for a minute suggesting that they are sufficient increases, but certainly the increase in M\u0101ori and Pacific Island participation is something this House can be very proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a635ca1bce41cdad32c5edce1e0d6e\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: What response does the Minister have to Efeso Collins, who believes that students from poorer backgrounds would be excluded under the new regime at Auckland University, describing the outcome of the actions as creating \u201Can underclass\u201D\u2014an analysis confirmed by both the Auckland University Students Association and Dr Bedggood, a member of the Association of University Staff of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba9f378e743445095e2454539fadaf6\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think what has happened is that a number of these commentators have made an understandable mistake in thinking that the number of places in our universities or polytechnics are somehow being capped at their current level and that, therefore, because of an increase in demand some students would be excluded who otherwise would not be. The truth is a little different. The truth is that we are moving from unplanned and open-ended growth, to planned and managed growth but growth nonetheless, and as a result of that we will see more students in polytechnics and universities next year than we have in this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4d611514dd40e99e945fd9857e04b5\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: More underclasses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81f16d06a6c466d9f7ef5af6883c181\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what that prattle from the other side of the House has to say, but I can assure the member that we will have an increase in participation in our tertiary education, not a decrease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ade2145e91e4c11b7979116d4b91463\u0022\u003EEnvironment, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8264c1774042158c6ce92647ad8dde\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister for the Environment; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec2a5da89a44191821c844faf38c195\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec2a5da89a44191821c844faf38c195\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes; because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229873f13c972472fab5cd563a640927c\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Should Trevor Mallard apologise for his attack on Erin Leigh in this House; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed6048020114737a51c74508756c72d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister awaits the report of the State Services Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aaff78c6f2c4576b80f0dbccd0319ac\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What reason has Mr Mallard given the Prime Minister for refusing to apologise in the House at this point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994cc64ea0004163a4d616422e0cbfb0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mallard and the Prime Minister are both awaiting the report of the State Services Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221be483fb3b394741a39b327fdb69cb18\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason Trevor Mallard will not apologise that Mr Mallard did not rely just on the briefing note when he defamed Erin Leigh in this House but he also relied on other information, that information came from two other people, David Parker and Heather Simpson, and that proves more than anything else that the Public Service is now politicised under Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbf11b69c0b45a38a28e4ae153e32c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. I am advised the Minister did not talk to either of those people before giving the answer in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3027cb94c4e471d9a21a14db2088ec7\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why then will the Minister for the Environment not apologise for something that the ministry itself is apologising for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292240c8fd0394fee87f061e06efdf0bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The ministry, of course, has apologised to the Minister for giving information that the head of the ministry now considers to be inadequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747f7d64c0fd4030a0d63b88029e789d\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that Trevor Mallard\u2019s actions in the last few months live up to her promise that \u201CThe Labour Government will set new standards, both in terms of behaviour and performance, so that we will govern for the people and be accountable to them\u201D; if so, how is that the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c85b62038c4ddbaf54d2728de2bdca\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has a clear record of operating sanctions against Ministers who have not performed up to the required standard, unlike the member opposite, because, of course, when Dr Nick Smith was found guilty of contempt of court, his colleagues welcomed him back with applause and no sanction occurred. When Mr Tau Henare was engaged in the altercation with Mr Mallard, nothing happened to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f452cf5491d341d7b749a02c6c3bb044\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is very difficult to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2c70ebba8246a7a0f9ddb46b3ea73c\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not just the case that Mr Mallard has completely lost objectivity, that he no longer is in control of his own actions in this House, and that he is wrong, the Government is wrong, and the ministry is embarrassed by the spin that Mr Mallard has put on this; and why does the Prime Minister not just put Mr Mallard out of his misery before the New Zealand public do so in 10 months\u2019 time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022447288b72b6b4625884b86e6abf4a795\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member really believes in the rule of law and of standards, then he will await the full inquiry report before rushing to judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecf28fa3f5dc45c5af497f6adb15431a\u0022\u003EPrisoners\u2014Numbers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220caa06a026264e939242405f2d2a164a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What reports has he received on prison numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f33113fb11434a8d8528a74d545bf08b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f33113fb11434a8d8528a74d545bf08b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised by the Department of Corrections that the prison muster as of yesterday was 7,828. That means that current spare capacity in the prison system yesterday was 1,122 spare beds. I compare that with just over 100 spare beds during the prison crisis under the previous National Government in 1999. That utterly contradicts Simon Power\u2019s claims that the prison numbers are out of control and have reached crisis level. [Interruption] Mr Power has got it wrong again and Mr Ryall, who is interjecting, should know that there are no prisoners in court cells at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aa28ad8b5504aee8785e6985b3e46ac\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise whether, notwithstanding the efforts of previous hard-working and conscientious Labour Ministers of Corrections, current prison numbers are consistent with the Ministry of Justice forecast in 2006?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ff88272b5f449bb5dddf121978c507\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Although for much of the year prison numbers were tracking way above the 2006 Ministry of Justice forecast, the figures for early December are practically identical to the total number forecast for that period and numbers appear to be currently tracking very closely to those predicted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aaa0456d7044e86926acbe645cd5383\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm his department\u2019s briefing released on Friday, which states that the peak prison muster in September was 8,457, when the latest forecast predicted those numbers would not be reached until 2011; can he also confirm the department\u2019s view that this muster crisis is due to an increase in violent crime, which has increased by 32 percent since Labour came into office, and that \u201Caverage sentence lengths have not changed significantly\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250dd17df06c84637ae888f6670d0e75e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: On the very last point, although a gutless National Government never put in serious penalties for serious violent offenders, Labour has increased the minimum non-parole period for serious offenders from 10 to 17 years\u2014Bell, for example, got 30 years\u2014which was something the National Government never did. In fact, the National Government released serious violent offenders automatically after they had completed two-thirds of their sentence regardless of the risk assessment by the Department of Corrections. I can confirm for the member that numbers have tracked down steadily from those quoted by the member. There is no crisis and, contrary to the member\u2019s allegations that the Effective Interventions programme by the Labour Government is not working, clearly it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb120cc0a95e4ff596231fb1c25324f0\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Considering that re-offending substantially feeds prison muster numbers, is the Minister happy with how his department is supporting inmates to reintegrate through literacy and numeracy programmes, drug and alcohol treatment, and resettlement options; if not, what plans has he to better support the thousands of inmates due for release in the next 12 months, or do we need them to justify all the new prisons we are building?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b405b3d2498f4158bb98dbf1b49cbee5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There are a range of programmes designed to assist rehabilitation. Some of them are working extraordinarily well, such as the offender programmes Kia M\u0101rama and Te Piriti for child sex offenders. There are now much higher numbers of people in work in prison getting work skills, work experience, and work habits, which are proven to be related to offending. There is much more being done in terms of drug and alcohol rehabilitation\u2014in fact my predecessor, Damien O\u2019Connor, ensured that we are on track to having six drug rehabilitation units\u2014and there is much greater emphasis on training and education skills, which the member mentioned. In fact, the number of inmates doing New Zealand Qualifications Authority units has gone up quite dramatically and is at a very high level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c0963d5b1cd42ed81f815e3890c4b71\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Has Labour\u2019s Effective Interventions programme been an effective intervention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7570122460243bf8263dffbc7bbf023\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Simon Power gets it wrong and then entrenches himself in that position. He said it was not having an impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0f50fdbd2643a9aeb0365e4978c397\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: This was the Minister who was opposed to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227853a42ccd0745ac8f65253bce3bdbd0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to ask a question, he should rise to his feet and ask it, instead of interjecting across the House. Yes, the programme has clearly been effective in ensuring that although the worst and serious violent offenders are now spending much longer in prison, those who are there for short-term sentences, where the focus should be on preventing reoffending, are being dealt with in more effective ways at much less cost to the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257128857a70543f297906c1c362b4249\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the Minister previously opposed to electronic bail and to the introduction of the Sentencing Council, both of which are crucial parts of the Effective Interventions package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9999825cad146d69d5611d167b3ebd0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: At the time I was Minister of Justice and the paper was first looked at, electronic monitoring had not proceeded to the level of effectiveness that it has now\u2014and it has. This is a modern, new-age Government. We take advantage of new technology. Electronic monitoring is working well. I am in favour of a Sentencing Council that ensures that there is consistency in sentencing. When I see that sentences in Auckland for identical offences to sentences in Invercargill bear no logical relationship to the other, I see that there is a need for sentencing guidelines and a Sentencing Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a41708777744ceba1876288b48310e3\u0022\u003EElectoral Finance Bill\u2014Interpretation of Clause 80(d)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229534d5d1ab8348db89b54cfd59b32c23\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by her assurance that before the Electoral Finance Bill is passed she will give the House an interpretation of clause 80(d), so that members know how to comply with the law; if so, when will she be giving this interpretation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002237172bb02a164bdaa2d5c9dc5db140f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237172bb02a164bdaa2d5c9dc5db140f2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by my assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d10223c6964a47b7654692fe20f152\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister think was wrong with the interpretation she has already given to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfc0f35f71964b9c929815c1a62b2db3\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The interpretation I gave was my view. Since I gave that view, others have raised a number of issues\u2014some in a sensible manner; some in a very verbally abusive manner. But I am prepared to listen to all of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb9fc9a0b58f411f8f0559f4d72221af\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Does section 213 of the Electoral Act 1993, which deals with activity in a member\u2019s capacity as a member of Parliament, re-enact a provision that has been in force in our law since 1956, and would the Electoral Finance Bill re-enact this provision in clause 80?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f468cd9828428782ec8f4d368bed1f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I thank the member for his constructive contributions to the debate during the Committee stage. They were unlike some of the other contributions we have had, which have been designed more to hinder than to help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c72e39f713746b3857bf79db77463b0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister answer the two questions I have already put to her: what was wrong with the interpretation of clause 80(d) she originally gave the House, and when will she give another one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4575c6fa2244c1e9bda77ed2f557e91\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Before the bill is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258393e8697e542cd8fdc9e8b547886b1\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can she understand people\u2019s frustrations that even today, despite the fact that she said she was wrong in her interpretation she cannot say how, and that when the bill is passed, officials, MPs, public servants, and the public will have precisely 2 working days to work out what this law means before it comes into practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db07030a9a7d44c78fc6b7f44aa03db9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the member\u2019s frustration. However, I believe it is nothing more than crocodile tears. He has been a member of this House for many, many years and he has a pretty good idea of what an MP does, even if he does not spend much time in his electorate carrying out those duties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022595f615135da4bb1aa456491db32db6e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the process the Government has put this bill through will give the New Zealand public, politicians, and officials 2 working days to understand what its many and vague provisions mean, will the Government support National\u2019s amendment to put back the date of commencement of this bill to 1 April 2008 in order to give people the opportunity to understand how the law works?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f209e42649426fa0de561ecbffe57a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No. I believe that most people who will be working with the bill are faster learners than the member opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e290dfa7514eb88a66d6fa66914861\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Assuming, or given\u2014whichever word we wish to use\u2014that the bill is passed next Tuesday, will people be allowed to think on other days than working days, and are there actually 8 working days between that time and 1 January?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f5b7c2e1433462da8ddb40364a0553e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Finance is absolutely right, of course. That is why he is a successful Minister of Finance, unlike the person who has been asking the questions, who was an abject failure in that role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022297b7f35bb0c41cca60d2ef6e342e1c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on the propensity in some political parties to seek to interfere with the democratic process, as best evidenced by the seething cauldron in Rakaia right now, where the headquarters of the National Party are supporting David Carter against all other good, competent, and able candidates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205cf7b52c3dd4c12a40f5df756b94b7f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last bit is not in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c0a675b0ca4176afa90a3dc2348410\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry I cannot comment on the example because I have not seen it, but I would not be at all surprised by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de3b7d6921cc410fbe54ce03479c8dd7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that as of today on one provision that applies to MPs the Minister of Justice does not know how the law is going to be applied, so how can she rely on the rest of the community understanding the other dozens of complex provisions in time to comply with the law by 1 January?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022813776891e934115ad77e9bbdea13540\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I will not confirm that. I believe that the member is quite incorrect, but then, he has become a peddler of malicious fabrications. He is also the person who claimed last week that debate on the bill had finished. That is what he said last week, and it did remind me of John Key when he said that the war in Iraq was over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240e1caf7b90240a3baf1594eb10e2200\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the intent behind the legislation and its interpretation is to ensure that people can arrive at free and fair democratic decisions without the duress or coercion of privilege and money and a small clique at the top, which is what is happening right now in the Rakaia electorate? Ask Mr Connell, he knows what I am talking about. Look at the choice they are going to have: David Carter, of all people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220c86fc93ae4f5bb70750f5144530e0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: In the number of spurious questions that we have received from the National Party they have lost the reason why this bill was introduced, but, certainly, members who are supporting it have not lost why it is being introduced, and neither have the public. They know what the National Party got up to in 2005, and they know it attempted to buy the election. It will not be buying the next one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eca3a186fef4ac49782632a32d94dad\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister heard of a recent example where there were five nominees for a democratic position in New Zealand, but the party hierarchy came in and heavied the other four out of standing, and is that the kind of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806e4953ec5745df90e764774c49a2fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not true!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655d1d8002354c44bbe5bcd971a4aec5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It is true, all right. I will table the documents to prove it is true. Is that the kind of thing we want to be happening at the local or national level in New Zealand politics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e2032303b84d4d9c87907c8248803d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is responsible for answering questions within her ministerial responsibility. As long as there is no reference to any particular instance and if it is a reference generally to the law in her response, then that is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227222fd7651c34ced96f987f03794601f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I think that most members of the House, certainly those on this side of the House and in support parties, support a democratic, open process where everybody gets a fair go. I think the member is giving an example of some party or other that does not give its members a fair go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c323d4df38be4284b843104e7c5873ed\u0022\u003ECapital and Coast District Health Board\u2014Patient Deaths\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270731473f0064ecda172db1dac32763e\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he been advised of any deaths of patients from other district health boards requiring tertiary surgery at Capital and Coast District Health Board; if so, on what date was he advised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002286d78a3b6654476e840e2d09275b7bf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286d78a3b6654476e840e2d09275b7bf0\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: The Minister receives a number of allegations about health issues on a regular basis, the most recent being the statement by Ms Roy in the House on 6 December about a so-called \u201Ckiller hospital\u201D. These allegations are always followed up, but, on examination, many are found to be without foundation. I am advised that the member herself has not provided any information to authenticate her allegations. I am further advised that the Capital and Coast District Health Board contacted her on three separate occasions to request that she provide the information she had, but she has not done so. On the contrary, just yesterday she made an Official Information Act request for information the hospital has on these incidents, and that would suggest to me that she does not have any information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a2aeeead424092b6952e199ff4e056\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: How can there be any confidence in a Minister who just 5 weeks ago was \u201Crunning this show\u201D, who 1 week ago was dodging questions about patient deaths at Capital and Coast District Health Board, who yesterday was shooting the messenger, and who now has gone from being the new sheriff in town to appointing a monitor to solve the crisis at Capital and Coast District Health Board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e60c4f595b164c00a3226873dac043f2\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I think that if the member is questioning the credibility of the Minister, she should look in the mirror and provide any information she has on this serious matter so that she can retain whatever credibility she has left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ff646c79bc43569199e1d73f92d628\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any professional bodies raising concerns about comments on staff performance at Capital and Coast District Health Board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf2b64cabac4253a3946afdcf1bddf0\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I am aware that the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists\u2014not known to be a supporter of this Government\u2014has labelled Heather Roy\u2019s attack on clinical staff working at Capital and Coast District Health Board as \u201Cdisgraceful, untrue, unfair, and unprincipled\u201D and called upon her to apologise. I am also aware that clinical staff at Wairarapa Hospital have spoken out in support of the care given by their colleagues at Wellington Hospital, saying: \u201CDespite all the bad press that Wellington Hospital is getting at the present time, we experience the support from teams of dedicated and hard-working professionals, who are always there when we need their services.\u201D I think most members would endorse those sentiments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f70bdb2e803421bb2659318013001d4\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Can he assure us that overall bed numbers at Wellington Hospital will not be reduced by up to 30 percent in order to fit into the new regional hospital; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d01267c00384b418b22d3140faf5d29\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any advice on that matter, but I would find it very difficult to understand how one could go into a rebuilding programme and reduce the number of beds by 30 percent. It does not seem right to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a74ecda72ff4a79bc415f020fad9fc3\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in this House on 7 November that \u201CI am running this show.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f9664b15f94d9d9133a6a56d6c9da8\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the Minister was indicating that he was going to take responsibility for the position he held as Minister. As far as I can see, he is doing just that, and very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d373fd665e949eeb439be94252f6c41\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Hansard of question of the day No. 2 on 7 November 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0c9cd277094b22b32e3e10ba04d9d7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228609c949d8594522a91633321f0fe819\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the front page of Saturday\u2019s Hawke\u2019s Bay Today newspaper, saying that three deaths on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d156d66d1a41fcb44c36fe8dc1befb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267f4db204a9f4b4088087741bd1bb62a\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f8ecd3cc91e48a6951a5507f019da24\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in his department; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002216f7ee8637df429385404957e453a9b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216f7ee8637df429385404957e453a9b5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, much more than I would have had 10 years ago. Why? Well, I will give the member just three out of many reasons. Firstly, prison escapes per 100 prisoners are just one-sixth of the escape number 10 years ago under a National Government. That means the escape rate has fallen by 84 percent. Secondly, drug taking in prisons is less than half what it was when the National Party left office; fewer inmates are giving positive drug tests. Thirdly, much more is being done in positive areas to prevent reoffending, such as greater provision of work, and drug and alcohol rehabilitation programmes\u2014factors that are associated very closely with offending levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6cddaee3d648bba9af7e4dcb7f1597\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he give this House an assurance that high-profile, serious offenders in P\u0101remoremo prison are not getting special treatment, and why did his department refuse to answer written questions from me earlier this year, about whether William Bell and others were getting special treatment, in order to \u201Cprotect the privacy\u201D of these inmates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f96584812a4889977021aacab58977\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the member that I have been absolutely assured by the Department of Corrections that William Bell was not getting special treatment. I know that the member is fond of saying that inmates at the maximum security block at P\u0101remoremo prison are in a holiday camp, but it is a holiday camp where people are locked in their cells from 5 at night till 8 in the morning, and it is a holiday camp where very spartan conditions apply, quite properly\u2014I make no apology for that; I believe that these inmates are a serious risk to the community, and they deserve the close personal supervision and monitoring that they get every hour of the day. One thing I can tell the member is that, unlike when National was in Government and the Minister said the perimeter fence at P\u0101remoremo prison was not to stop the prisoners from escaping but just to slow them down, we have now got proper security in that prison, and, unlike the situation under National, inmates do not escape from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243c8e138bd4040b89902a86a0a676c4f\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Labour-led Government done to reduce the number of escapees so dramatically?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b60bef26a949729086a4fe0fc380bc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is very difficult to hear. I will be asking some members to leave, if the noise continues at this level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277b137413ffd4eb2a68050865a687ada\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: In the 1990s prison escapes were as high as 154 inmates escaping a year. In the last 4 years the figure has been under 20. It has come down from as high as 154 to under 20. Why has it come down? Well, I mentioned that in my answer to the last question; one of the reasons is that we have put in 17 kilometres of perimeter fencing, and it is much harder for people to get out. Unlike at the prison close to Mr Power\u2019s electorate, one does not have to cross just a 6-wire fence to get to the prison; one now has to cross a perimeter fence. There is electronic monitoring. There is much better monitoring and supervision of inmates and the factors that lead to escapes. That record is a record to be proud of. It is one of the lowest escape rates of any country in the Western World.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3cbb8e0a6814adbaed9a2d056f078e7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his department move a convicted murderer to within 300 metres of the workplace of his victim\u2019s daughter, after it had already placed him next door to where she lives, or does he not recall his stating in 2003 that his new laws would make that sort of mistake a thing of the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223831128155124a8f878019d8e9e6aabb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely recall that. Regrettably, the murder the member is referring to happened in 1992. At that time there was no Victims\u2019 Rights Act in New Zealand. It was only in 2002 that we brought in the right for every person registered on the notification list to be advised of any plans for release or parole. Unfortunately, the victim whom the member is referring to was not on the victim notification register\u2014unfortunately. Three members of her family were. The Parole Board, as a result of that, ensured that a condition of release was that the particular offender would not live within 50 kilometres of the three people who were on the victim notification register. The family of the victim has now been contacted by the police. They are now on the register, and, as a result, the Department of Corrections not only has recalled the inmate\u2014it moved the inmate within 24 hours of being notified that the inmate was living next to one of the family of the victim\u2014but also has now asked the Parole Board, which has the authority in this area, not to release that inmate, at the point that he might be released again, in the vicinity of anyone on the victim notification register. If the National Government, instead of doing nothing on victims\u2019 rights for 10 years, had brought in the Victims\u2019 Rights Act before that murder, this problem would not have arisen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07cad7d333141c8ad5d441a1d68a54f\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What action has been taken to reduce access by inmates to contraband such as drugs and cellphones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f004ff07d97467bb5c4529b25016745\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: It was very clear that there was a major problem with both drugs and cellphones in prisons. We have taken effective action against that. As I have noted, we have halved the rate of positive drug tests in prison. We are doing more in a bill that is currently on the Table before the House. With cellphones, we have also had much closer searching, but we are now in the process of putting jamming devices in every prison, so that if any cellphone is smuggled in, it will not work anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1653bc3ed6543298cffefca15db31b8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister respond to the brother of the young woman whose mother\u2019s murderer was placed next door to her, and then near her workplace, who said: \u201CWhat annoys me most is how Corrections and its Minister have misled the public and purported to have systems in place that they clearly have not, and that the Minister has just \u2018shrugged off\u2019 my family\u2019s case in a dismissive one-liner \u2018She wasn\u2019t on the register\u2019 \u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225790a40512664670aab97c9e3faca5be\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I have already answered that question at length and I will not repeat what I have already said. But in that article it was also suggested by that person that the victim whom the offender was placed next to had not gone on the victim notification register\u2014she did not want to be on it. Fortunately, the police have approached her and she is now on that register, and we can ensure that that situation will not happen again, because the system does work as long as people register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c96df61d5c2444bab08dc02ac5f6ac87\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence in his department when, in addition to these botch-ups, the last 2 weeks have seen four offenders escape, including a convicted murderer; a twelfth guard suspended from Rimutaka Prison this year; and an alleged head-butting incident and brawl involving Manawat\u016B Prison staff, at a Palmerston North hotel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d3e201fa00b4a2ea746b2256e4d0e5a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: How many times does the member have to be told that if he wants to talk about escapes, he should know that escapes are at a rate one-sixth of the level they were when his party was in Government, and he sat behind, and was an apologist for, the National Minister of Corrections. Yes, from time to time there will be incidents. I cannot say that all corrections officers at a party will behave better than National members behave at their private parties. I deplore the way that that particular corrections officer behaved, but it was totally outside the jurisdiction of the prison, it was not on prison property, and it was not in prison time. I am not sure how the member expects the Department of Corrections to act in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Mr Power is on record in the New Zealand Herald this morning as saying that he was going to ask a totally different set of questions. Perhaps he would like to take the opportunity to do what he promised to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225323a8e290264a7aa6c39e54b9a39dff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228359467a305c4f96ab217a93d1208389\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to ask the Minister a further question, in addition to my allocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229138528154f74c119a6d8d0dd6566d05\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection. [Interruption] Would the House please settle and show some respect to the next questioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269469db6340c4db1a281f6b2074b909f\u0022\u003ERoad Toll\u2014Trucking\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d258effafabf469b99a47a0573d4b82d\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: How does the Government expect to meet a road safety target of no more than 200 fatalities a year by 2040 while simultaneously allowing bigger trucks on our roads, given that deaths from crashes involving trucks make up around 20 percent of the total road toll, even though only 6 percent of the total distance travelled on New Zealand roads is travelled by trucks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5d8731f4f464d5dad4845a3aca05c71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5d8731f4f464d5dad4845a3aca05c71\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E As the member knows following the briefing I gave her last week, no decision has been made to allow bigger trucks on New Zealand roads. Cabinet has agreed to further work on developing a controlled permit system to allow heavier vehicles on specified routes. The Ministry of Transport, in conjunction with key stakeholders, is crafting a sensible permit system for heavy vehicles, and I expect a trial to begin next year. A key feature of it will be road safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd75fde793da47f5bc32541c11422fea\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said that roads will be safer with bigger trucks, is she saying that children who will be walking to Maramarua School down State Highway 2 now that their bus service has gone will be safer because the trucks will be bigger and heavier, and what evidence can she offer to support this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254fe274438c54276ad9b3c96ded3ec80\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am saying two things. The first is that the trial is for a permit system to allow trucks that are capable of carrying 50 tonnes to be able to load up to 50 tonnes. By doing that\u2014if we take the example of Fonterra, which says it will take 58 trucks off the road\u2014fewer trucks will be going past the school the member mentioned. The second thing is that over the last 15 years the number of fatal truck crashes that occur for every 100 million kilometres driven by trucks has halved\u2014down from about six fatal crashes per 100 million kilometres to three fatal crashes. So the trend in terms of accidents with trucks has been going down, not up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a3038293a74ceb89a8c64eaef2a7a2\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister acknowledge that truck drivers are not always to blame in truck crashes, and will she further acknowledge that if we had built better roads when materials were cheaper\u2014that is, concrete, steel, and bitumen\u2014instead of siphoning off the money into the Crown account, as the National Party did when it was in Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b404bcf78d14712a03ae010f5cac423\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Get over it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76be361b28349438c88b25080a34c9a\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: The member says \u201CGet over it!\u201D Will the Minister acknowledge that if we had done all that, there would be people alive today who were killed on our roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078c9374e3734b11a3b897c45f43af2b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes two very good points. Obviously, better roads make it safer for those on it, including those who are driving trucks. I also agree with the member that trucks are not always the cause of accidents. We do have some drivers in New Zealand who, when they see a truck, feel they have to pass it, and sometimes they make decisions that have fatal consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c1ec054687422aad038dcde79658f8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister plan to design the big truck permit system in a way that does not undermine more sustainable modes of freight transport, such as rail and coastal shipping, recognising that according to the Government\u2019s report on surface transport costs and charges, trucks currently pay only 56 percent of the costs they cause to the economy while rail pays over 80 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c007840b6294e8f85bae2feec438a5f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: As I explained to the member, the reason for carrying out a trial and doing the work before we have a trial is to ensure that we look at the impact such a system would have on other modes of transport. We are very aware of the need to ensure the use of rail and the growing use of coastal shipping. Part of developing a project like this is to do it carefully and to ensure that all the data is gathered before we decide whether to put this system permanently in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022687db0bf343447c6a5daed02e0512471\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: As part of that very thorough study that the Minister proposes, when will she be consulting road users such as cyclists, pedestrians, the Automobile Association, and other ordinary motorists, rather than just the private trucking company stakeholders that form 55 out of the 61 agencies consulted so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f018a613f21d4e348afc4786010ebb13\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my first answer, the Ministry of Transport will be working with a wide range of key stakeholders in the development of this permit system, and I expect that the ministry will consult widely on it. I want the best possible system put in place, with all the safety considerations as well, but I am also very aware that we have to make some progress in this area for economic reasons in New Zealand. We have to balance those two imperatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288d4081dd57644ceb09df0bad670514d\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Children not Enrolled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e8067eca90a475ea99d8567997cda1f\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What is the Ministry of Education\u2019s most recent estimate of the number of primary, intermediate, and secondary school aged children under the age of 16 who are not enrolled in any school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022978ff8e63f5c44abb3c85f7d07a3492d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022978ff8e63f5c44abb3c85f7d07a3492d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the Ministry of Education\u2019s new ENROL electronic enrolment register estimates that currently 6,334 students are potentially non-enrolled. This figure will include students who have emigrated before July this year, who may be in the process of shifting to another school, or who may have left school at age 16 without giving the school the proper notification. ENROL has been fully available only since October 2007, and without a full year of records it is not possible to say accurately just how many students are not currently enrolled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243b68c2e9f37436ba902166e4fb53dcc\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that that number is the largest number of non-enrolments this country has ever seen; and that although he is pretending that the issue has arisen only after the implementation of ENROL, the trend has been a disturbing one since 2000 and the number of enrolments has increased, year on year, at the rate of 8 percent each year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293458cab4e89428daa3f823c77110c5c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm that, because for the very first time ever we have an accurate system that all schools are on and that is up to date. We have never had that before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c1631df83d4312bba2f3911cbbe736\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Why cannot the Minister confirm that, when that information comes from information supplied by his own officials, who point out that since 2000 the number of non-enrolments under this Government has grown by 8 percent each year and his Government has ignored that trend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aaedc75b9c5435d8c74c115e08b3ffc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member failed to listen to my earlier answer when I said that this is the first time we have ever had an accurate, up-to-date electronic system with everybody on it. Previously we had a paper-based system that was notoriously inaccurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed48dc7e10c48729b665f082ef8b44f\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister\u2019s Government suddenly promising a crack down on truancy now, when it has been well aware that between 2002 and 2006 there was a 41 percent increase in the truancy rate and nothing has been done about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c191838c1cf443f98c3bb071a54cc146\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Lots has been done about it. But I remind the House again that for the first time ever we have accurate figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a955af16e7145e2924b117b153cb5c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s got worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243105b62ca98426e92c51291a58147fb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: So for the member to suggest that it has got worse is simply not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c5e4c738554d32b0ccb22a75dda221\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister keep saying that this is the first time we have had accurate data, when information from his own officials shows that ever since 2000 the number of non-enrolments\u2014some of those confirmed in parliamentary questions\u2014has grown, year on year, by 8 percent and the ENROL system now shows that things are far worse than anybody ever expected, and these kids are not getting an education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295817daa06a2456a8b0b60320bb594c5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say to the House\u2014and, again, I say this is the first time ever\u2014is that we have a completely accurate system that all schools are on, and it is instantaneous. We do not have the duplications we had with the paper system. We do not have schools failing to pass on the data properly, as we had with the paper system. We do not have a system where schools do not keep proper records, which we had with the paper system. Now we have an accurate system. We may potentially have over 6,000 children not enrolled, but that number will have to include of course students who have emigrated, students who have failed to notify a school that they have gone to work, or students whose parents are moving from one district to another. After 1 year we will be able to tell this House, and the country, exactly how many students are not enrolled. We do not want any students not enrolled, and at last we have a tool to find them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee9c1af39fbc4b82999a8ce20393dc62\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister stand in the House and wax lyrical about the accuracy of his system, when even if we look at just the gross numbers we know that we are talking about enough kids to fill 25 primary schools and five secondary schools\u2014kids who have somehow fallen between the cracks and who are not getting an education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b1dd5ae4d644729638d0310e18c19e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We may or may not be talking about that number. After 1 year we will know. When we have deducted students who have emigrated, students who have moved from one district to another, and students who have gone to work and failed to notify schools, within a year we will know that. The member should be complimenting this Government on the $5.5 million we have spent\u2014the National Government never did that\u2014to set up a system that is accurate, up to date, and enables us to deal with the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022390b82dd27234e32b12189e777619a7d\u0022\u003EConservation Support\u2014Businesses and Tourism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e960cee3b74f6da03906b306457c27\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What reports has she received about businesses and tourism operators supporting conservation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a50273384397434aa5c35a2b4724c918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a50273384397434aa5c35a2b4724c918\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E A new conservation trust has just been launched to further protect New Zealand\u2019s busiest national park. The Abel Tasman Birdsong Trust is a new approach where tourism operators contribute to local conservation projects. I applaud this initiative; it is a wonderful example of local businesses supporting the Labour-led Government\u2019s commitment to preserving our unique identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dae02de9e1a4285bba3b0f3afac9938\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: How will the trust support the Abel Tasman National Park environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba4375f9c00f424ca972091da1e95c49\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: The trust will work to support the preservation of this beautiful and unique park environment by restoring birdlife and expanding pest control. The trust will help to ensure that this park remains one of the best places in the world to visit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220add971ab3334db4ac556ba1dc546b5e\u0022\u003EMaramarua School\u2014Bus Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e412555b93734c7a9dce2df6a6e0f8cc\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does the Ministry of Education intend to cut free bus services to the rural Maramarua School; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002251294cff2662468fbbbc646e804bb648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251294cff2662468fbbbc646e804bb648\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E No, we do not. A free school bus service will continue to be available for eligible families next year. The Ministry of Education recently reviewed school bus services to the school, and found that some students using the bus were not eligible for a free service. The parents of those children can, of course, elect to pay for their children to continue using the school bus next year, or make alternative arrangements, such as car pooling, to get their children to school\u2014just as parents do all over New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b7e893f1524f37b02cd062228b6a79\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the Minister and his ministry even consider cutting bus services to a school on the edge of New Zealand\u2019s most dangerous highway\u2014known as the \u201Chighway to hell\u201D\u2014where there are no footpaths, no grass verges, and where children have been killed in the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034d0774ab7f4ce2894f0405b06d0d27\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We are not intending to cut bus services. Some children no longer qualify for a free ride. Their parents can, of course, pay for them to go on the bus, if they want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feb2bae955754c0fa3b33025110f9470\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What support does the Government provide to assist families to get their children to school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c0bbcef82c48a587470d9bcab3b183\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In National\u2019s last year in office it spent about $90 million a year on school transport assistance; today the Labour-led Government is spending in excess of $120 million per year\u2014an increase of $30 million. Free buses are available to primary school students who live more than 3.2 kilometres from the nearest school, and to secondary school students who live more than 4.8 kilometres from the nearest school, where an alternative public transport system is not available. These regulations have been in place for many years, under both Labour and National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b813d3aaf6de4612918319d0676a35d8\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give an assurance that full bus services to Maramarua School will remain at least until such time as a four-lane expressway and safe footpaths are built, or does he wish to be recorded\u2014as suggested on Campbell Live last evening\u2014as New Zealand\u2019s most stupid Minister of Education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb614d3561e42c385f586a306f70b4e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the House for the third time today that we have no intention of cutting bus services to Maramarua School. The parents of children who do not qualify for a free bus ride\u2014and some parents\u2019 children do not qualify\u2014will be able to purchase a place on the bus, if they wish to. These are the same regulations that operated under National. I remind the House again that the Labour-led Government has increased funding for rural school bus services by over $30 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d5277663ef43188f97ae690820c7f4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: What will the effect be of this school bus carrying non-eligible children, and what will the effect be if they are turfed off the bus\u2014a saving of a few dollars, or a second bus, or what have you? Perhaps the Minister would care to tell the House what he would say to the parents if one of these non-eligible children were killed on the road while walking to school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d956261887e34fa789068d666eb31f92\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I will say is that the Government is committed to supporting parents whose children need to get to a school where there is not a public transport system. That is why we have increased funding for rural bus services by $30 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022595bde4809d749f7a90d323d368c8d92\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister prepared to heed the advice of Grahame Smith, the former principal of Maramarua School, who writes: \u201CThe thought of children of any age walking even a short distance along this road is mind blowing. I know from personal experience, as I lost a 15-year-old son on that road, near the school.\u201D, or will he risk more children\u2019s lives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abb3d8a345940f7b483203517315f7c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Everybody would have deep sympathy for anybody who lost a child in a traffic accident. But the bottom line is that there has to be rules about how funding is applied and about which parents qualify. We are not taking any services away from that school. Some children do not qualify for a free ride; others do. There has to be a formula, and the same formula that is used under this Labour Government was used under the National Government. I remind the House again that we have increased funding for rural school bus services by $30 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0bb7a1dd6e41d2a6487265ac54be5d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Big deal!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59bdc8f03c54520b7104164db48e447\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear Mr Ryall saying that is a big deal. I bet it is a big deal for his constituents who live in the country, who are grateful for that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4ee2d595ff4fa58176b56ccc8550bc\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why have the Minister and the previous Minister, Steve Maharey, refused, despite four formal requests from me, to give me a briefing on this recklessly dangerous policy, or is this yet another example of his Government\u2019s plan to shut down the democratic process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c186c7509444c579a040e580a0cffe9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have never refused to give the member a briefing; if he wants to come with me after question time, I will give him one then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309af44f6c164734acee5861e86fbf47\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a New Zealand Herald article dated 12 November 2007, entitled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b87849ab6f4a22b5e4fa671e190a99\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022715774c5ae7840b89b04de1f44b7ac05\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282ea43bb58284f1486a66a6582394171\u0022\u003EEnvironment, Ministry\u2014Financial Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a8fbfdbf9de4474914a949e5cb5e43b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: Has the committee concluded its consideration of the 2006-07 financial review of the Ministry for the Environment; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022298ba5c9cb0840dfb94cae0e779d68a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022298ba5c9cb0840dfb94cae0e779d68a8\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E No; if the member had bothered to turn up to last week\u2019s meeting, he would know why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022848c5b7f9b034a17ae0ee8000697a8a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What explanation has she or the committee clerks received from the Ministry for the Environment for its failure to respond to the committee\u2019s 14 questions on communications contracts involving Clare Curran and Erin Leigh, for which a response was required by 5 p.m. last Friday\u2014or is the material so embarrassing that the Government intends to hold it until after the last question time, so it does not have to address those issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244fa9b7020ec4a7ea80f5c89f37a2104\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That moves out of process questions into substantive matters. So the chair has no responsibility for that; the committee does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c2c7918a684488a287cb2f117b4a4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: This is a supplementary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fcc6e8b147640a2a4ced53ba0e8f7f7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there are no further supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d54806140ca4467ac72daaea7feb73c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question was: \u201CWhat explanation has she or the committee clerks received \u2026 \u201D under the agreement? A specific agreement was reached between the committee and the Ministry for the Environment that these answers would be provided by a particular date. The question was quite specific. It was about whether the committee clerk or the chair had received any explanation since that deadline had passed. Surely that is within the Standing Orders in terms of questions that are appropriate to go to chairs of select committees, noting that this is likely to be one of the last question times in the House this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022027cda7c57c643ecac1892096052fa10\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, of course, the member went on and added a great deal more to the question, including asking something about the Government\u2019s intention. The chair of the select committee has no responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264cc608352b14af99119f4ed1dd2922b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. If the question is confined to whether the committee has received a response, then that can be addressed, but nothing else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16e44a9f4cb4f44921e9ee9ad7cfc9a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, any correspondence that has been received by the committee is confidential to the committee until it is tabled. I invite the member to grace us with his presence on Thursday, so that we can discuss the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e9ddbb768a44338fee1450bf1512d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the 14 questions from the committee and the email I have received from the committee clerk, stating that no response had been received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c8a6080f24409a92cd51583fa803cf\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002201432b4e696e4dbcb20934cdc7fdd376\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bcac59116b64bcc8266b30d8386fb50\u0022\u003ECorrection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a371021450e04688901366c59ebdd661\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a371021450e04688901366c59ebdd661\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I have determined that my proxy vote on the two votes that followed the second reading debate on the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill was invalidly given as a \u201CNo\u201D instead of an \u201CAye\u201D. I now request that the vote be changed in order to validate and record the correct position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb55032208c94128938bfbc2302ff0d8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e99f57729e444958836f999434d26f0d\u0022\u003EElectoral Finance Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207d3360c247e4afe8b60117a897ffdcf\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000219\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 6 December.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ab25083edb04ea9a5c1f0c03115aa42\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022243bdc0b98ee430291c56d1e19de9ff1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022243bdc0b98ee430291c56d1e19de9ff1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As the debate around the Electoral Finance Bill enters its final stages in the Committee the arguments still remain the same. This bill has been cobbled together by the Labour Government and supported by New Zealand First and the Greens, and the only purpose behind the bill is to rig the electoral system in order to give the gasping, dying Labour Government another chance. That is the only thing behind this bill, and Winston Peters knows it well. That is what is behind this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe bill is fundamentally flawed\u2014fundamentally flawed. There has been a convention around electoral finance legislation in the past whereby legislation like this bill is developed on a consensus basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269152153e3b4dcda4aa37d95192c02d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e12c30b982744b50be6200caf2b96e89\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is developed on a consensus basis, and Winston Peters knows that. He knows that very, very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut on this occasion Jill Pettis said it all. She said that there are people around New Zealand today who want to write cheques for the National Party because they want to see the end of the corruption that exists at the moment within the current Government. That is what is going on with this legislation. Winston Peters knows it, but I would tell\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2e4e360035b4beb8a3c34d8d98a98d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. If Mr Carter wants to talk about corruption, then I am sure he is looking in the mirror, but he will not make that allegation about any member of this Government or, for that matter, a Minister. He has just mentioned my name. If he wants a rundown on corruption, then he should tell members what is going on in the Rakaia selection process right now, where there were five candidates and now there is only one, or he can give any other example. But he cannot make that accusation. It is outside the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf8cdfe5ce484550a0807f830f3663c0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I would just like to draw members\u2019 attention to the fact that the member was on a point of order. There should have been silence, and there was a lot of talking. It was actually quite hard to follow. [Interruption] I am ruling on a point of order. Members know that that is a term that is not to be used against a member or against a party, as per Speakers\u2019 rulings, so I just caution the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233542688eae6402199fbfded33060ffb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: If Helen Clark thinks that this bill will save her Government, then she has another think coming, because the public of New Zealand know what is going on with this legislation. Winston Peters knows what is going on with this legislation, Helen Clark knows, Doug Woolerton knows\u2014they all know. This legislation is about screwing the scrum. It is about making sure the Government gets an advantage in putting its message out, using taxpayers\u2019 money, after it got caught last year taking $850,000 off the taxpayer. After Winston Peters\u2019 party got caught taking $50,000 off the taxpayer, Winston Peters said he would pay it back, and the cheque was in the mail\u2014yeah, right! That money has never been paid back. That is what this legislation is about; it is about any mechanism the dying parties of New Zealand First and Labour can find to screw the scrum, take money off the taxpayers to sell their message, and in the meantime attempt to slow down the National Party in getting its message out to the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022931027659fe84530abbf916a280bd047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022931027659fe84530abbf916a280bd047\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like the opportunity for a brief call; I will be more expansive later on in the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI think it is important that we consider these matters in the wider context. Most people in this country know that we are here because of what the National Party\u2014not the Exclusive Brethren, not the racing industry, but the National Party\u2014got up to in 2005. I think it is important in the wider Australasian context that we think about the wider social context. We live in a time of substantial proliferation of the so-called independent thinktanks. We are only too aware of the extent of the covert flow of funds in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWe have, in terms of the media reporting, a lack of objectivity about this issue. There was the extraordinary position recently of so-called independent commentators such as David Farrar, a National Party staffer, and ACT bagman Mr Boscawen being characterised as having some degree of independence and objectivity. That is clearly not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EBut there are some glimmers of hope\u2014more in the Australian media, I must say, than here. I refer members to the excellent ABC documentary The Brethren Express, which contains fascinating New Zealand material. It is yet to be shown on our television. One can assume that the decision to show it here will be made shortly, but it is available to members and to listeners by way of the ABC website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThere are also some other local resources about the Australasian socio-political scene that are extremely informative and useful as a resource to our whole community. The first one I refer to is some wonderful work by an academic called Marion Maddox, an Australian who is now in the department of religious studies at Victoria University in this very city. Marion Maddox is the author of the book God Under Howard, and her expos\u00E9 of the marginalisation by the former Australian Prime Minister of the traditional churches and his encouragement of the fringe churches is an extraordinary read. When I have finished these comments in a few moments I will ask leave to table her Ferguson Lecture, given in New Zealand in 2006, which makes extraordinary reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI close by referring also to another most important resource; namely, the evidence given to the select committee by Nicky Hager, which is not contained in his book and is quite new material. I refer members to that document\u2014in particular, pages 2 to 7 of the transcript of his evidence\u2014and I would like to make one direct quote. Mr Hager stated on page 4 of the transcript: \u201CI suspect that the National Party helped to draft the Exclusive Brethren ads, but I don\u2019t have proof of that. What I am absolutely sure of, what I have absolutely confident knowledge of, is that the people who the Exclusive Brethren liaised with and informed of their plans completely were the leader, Don Brash, the finance spokesperson, John Key, and the campaign manager, Steven Joyce, and that a very short period after that, the whole campaign team\u2014people like McCully and Brownlee\u2014also knew. The subsequent denials were not correct. They were untrue.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThank you Madam Chair. I seek leave of the House to table the 2006 Ferguson Lecture God and New Zealand Public Life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e316dd57030e47428171a190902c0dc1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is an objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00224367064188af439a9e984be8e48e0e7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224367064188af439a9e984be8e48e0e7c\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this perfidious Electoral Finance Bill, and I say \u201Cperfidious\u201D in the true sense of the word, because it is a breach of faith by this Labour Government to the people of New Zealand and it is treacherous because indeed it is totally in the self-interest of this Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about the title of this bill, we can think of it as the \u201CLabour Government Suppression of Democracy and Human Rights Bill\u201D because Helen Clark, on Labour\u2019s now infamous 1999 pledge card, said: \u201CLabour will build a future in which everyone has a stake and a chance.\u201D Here we are, 8 years later, and the New Zealand Herald\u2019s front page said it all: \u201CDemocracy under attack\u201D and \u201Ca dramatic assault on human rights.\u201D I could hardly believe that the Human Rights Commissioner felt so strongly that she would describe the chilling effect that this bill caused, regarding the regulated periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EEven further to that, if one looks at the footnote regarding the chilling effects, this is what the Human Rights Commissioner said: \u201C \u2018Chilling effects\u2019 refers to the stifling effect that vague or over-broad laws may have on legitimate speech and activity.\u201D That is the indictment on this Labour Government and that is the indictment on that interjector over there. She goes on to say: \u201CThis term has been used in the United States for several years when William J Brennan, the first Postmaster General, referred to the chilling effect on the exercise of First Amendment rights.\u201D This is, indeed, a great indictment on this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut another title suggested to me by the Hon Georgina te Heuheu was the \u201CLabour Government\u2019s Sticky Pink Hands in Ordinary New Zealanders\u2019 Pockets Bill\u201D, because here again is this socialist Government that just cannot help itself in controlling the rights and freedoms of ordinary New Zealanders. This week the House will debate the third reading of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill, and there again, the Government is attempting to trample over universities\u2019 freedom of expression and autonomy. Again, there is a chilling connection between that and, of course, the very same bill that we are speaking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that Bill English\u2019s amendment should be taken up by this Government so that at least the regulated period does not cover a full third of the electoral cycle, but instead goes from April onwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a354db8b773146ca80a1c64131830e15\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: This member is degenerating at an alarming rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226897a674b6be4cd88774eeef2d14905b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest to that interjector over there, who is so keen on suppressing fundamental human rights, that he listen to this very, very sensible suggestion that extends from April and on to the election. Even yesterday, when I attended a bus protest at Maramarua, one of the ordinary parents of these children whose lives the Labour Government is putting at risk said to me: \u201CWill I be able to protest next year, under this Labour Government?\u201D. Ordinary people do not understand what this Government is placing on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EFinally, a third fitting title for the bill might be the \u201CHelen Clark Legacy to Suppression of Free Speech Bill\u201D. She is the lady who said, back in 1999, that everyone would have a stake and a chance. I can tell Ms Clark that on the streets of Pukekohe and on the farms of Port Waikato, people are saying that this time her arrogance has gone just too far. The Law Society has it absolutely right in the conclusion of its submission when it states: \u201CRather, the bill in its current form is a flawed attempt to achieve a legitimate social objective.\u201D It should be thrown out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002216d1ec59d26948b187ec236b7f0d8e8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216d1ec59d26948b187ec236b7f0d8e8f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will tell the good doctor what perfidy is: it is deceit\u2014saying one thing whilst acting the very reverse in terms of one\u2019s behaviour. That is what perfidy is. To get up and talk about this side of the Chamber being responsible for it is really a disgrace. The National Party now gets over $7 million from the New Zealand taxpayer every year. Next year it will get $7 million more, plus it wants the $2.2 million cap. That is over $9.2 million dollars, all in the one year, and National members have the effrontery to argue\u2014and be supported by the New Zealand Herald and other commentators\u2014that this system is somehow unfair. That is disgraceful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EHow much money does the National Party need? It now gets $7 million from the taxpayer every year. It will get that amount in 2008, and it will have a cap of $2.2 million as well. That is almost $9.5 million for the 2008 election year. The National Party is running around with the mealy-mouthed New Zealand Herald correspondents, saying that somehow it is being unfairly treated. That is disgraceful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI will tell members what is unfair about politics. What is going on in the Rakaia electorate right now is apposite to this debate. National had five candidates, many of them dominion councillors and long-serving members of the party. One was a nephew of Don McKinnon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213cb29454b5746f88b1d67cdaadf3497\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Where did he go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fb2fac9774e408d9799f7eaa06242e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He was told by National Party headquarters that he should not stand and that he should pull his name out, because David Carter is the preferred candidate\u2014David Carter, who could not win any seat ever, and is now carpetbagging, not in Lyttelton but in R\u0101kaia. With all his money, he got told by the hierarchy that that was the choice and other worthy souls were told \u201CNo.\u201D This is how the National Party organises elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d312ae0acb114dd38df69db3ef1e324f\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Outrageous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b7e7960309465fae54fc2649b51951\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is outrageous. I challenge anyone who wants to persist with this silly, scurrilous argument to explain this: do members recall the Campaign for Better Government in 1993, with one Mr Peter Shirtcliffe and his family members? It was a thoroughly stuffed-shirt affair, as the English would say. He claimed to have thousands of members, but they turned out be his wife and his daughter\u2014that was it. And who was it that paid all their money? A foreign-owned company called Telecom. It had the effrontery to come into the New Zealand system and seek to organise the shape, character, and form of New Zealand\u2019s democracy. How outrageous! Did members see \u201CGranny Herald\u201D writing editorials about this affront? Did members see any New Zealand newspaper prepared to say that it is outrageous that a foreign-owned company now thinks it can organise New Zealand\u2019s democracy? There was not a syllable, not a sound, and not a word. Nothing whatsoever came from these horribly concerned lips in 2003. That is the National Party\u2019s record when it comes to democracy. It knew what Fay Richwhite were doing in the New Zealand market place. Did National members ever criticise Fay Richwhite? No. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on criticising an MP who was taking on this activity. That is National\u2019s record. All of a sudden, National members are out there, saying that this legislation is heinous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThey should tell me this: which businessman will be disallowed, excluded, disbarred, or ruled out of taking part in the 2008 campaign? They should name one. They should name one business interest who will be denied being included or involved in any way he or she may wish to be\u2014legally, of course\u2014in the 2008 campaign. National Party members should tell me now. They have been telling everybody else around the country and boring Rotary Club members silly with this argument, but they cannot tell Parliament. They save up all these arguments for the local RSA meetings, I suppose, as though its members are concerned to hear that sort of deceit. But National members cannot name one business interest who is ruled out, cannot participate, or is not able to be involved in the 2008 campaign. They cannot name one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThen again, some of the members of that party know nothing about what fair democratic traditions are about. Unlike people like Holyoake, this is a new breed who think that just getting money is all they have to do. It shows in their behaviour\u2014the Ryalls, the rat pack, the brat pack. They are so powerful that even though they have a new leader called Key, they can get Carter\u2014who is a hopeless member of Parliament and was a hopeless Minister\u2014a nomination in a blue-rinse seat, not by way of debate, challenge, and vote, but by being the one candidate in R\u0101kaia, of all places. Now, ain\u2019t that the truth!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfc780bd4ed14edb9a3113e98d46ed72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfc780bd4ed14edb9a3113e98d46ed72\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E In 1943 Winston Churchill said in the House of Commons: \u201CEveryone is in favour of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled. But some people\u2019s idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says something back, that is an outrage.\u201D That is what the Electoral Finance Bill is about. It is a self-serving bill. It is a bill about keeping a Labour Government in power. It is a bill designed to give the incumbents a gravy train of funding and limit everyone else\u2019s rights of expression. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that purports to support human rights in Zimbabwe and Fiji, yet at the same time wants to limit Kiwis in having their say. Last night I attended a citizenship ceremony in Te Aroha. It was a citizenship ceremony in which some folk from Zimbabwe and from Fiji wanted to become Kiwis. They had earned that right to become Kiwis. They came here because of our values, our opportunities, our free speech, and our free expression. I wonder what they will say when this bill comes in on 1 January and denies them and limits those opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis is Draconian legislation. We have seen dictators in the past. I tell members that those who interfere with their constitutions will rue that day. At the end of it, they all fail. This Government is going down the road. This Government is failing New Zealanders and New Zealand as a whole. This Labour Government has become obsessed with power. It is arrogant. It will not listen. It knows best. Everything we see today is designed around keeping this party and this Government in power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe editorials, television, media, and marches are all coming out against the bill. We saw that the Law Society has very strong comments about how abusive this legislation is. The Human Rights Commission described the bill as \u201Ca dramatic assault on the freedom of expression\u201D. It does not come much stronger than that. The commission said the bill was \u201Ca dramatic assault on the freedom of expression\u201D. New Zealanders are incensed with this Government, which wants to run their lives. This Government will rue the day it decided to push ahead with this self-serving legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe Government recently passed the Appropriation (Continuation of Interim Meaning of Funding for Parliamentary Purposes) Bill. That bill legitimises the illegal spending from the last election. The Auditor-General made the rules very plain, and Labour had to pay back $800,000-odd. That is why New Zealand First has a bill\u2014because of its illegal spending. So what does this Government do? It changes the law. It comes out and legitimises that illegal spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENow we have parties and candidates within Parliament being able to use taxpayer money to pay for their campaign. Of course, that should be considered election advertising. Election ads could be run during the election campaign, and the costs of those ads will not count towards the party\u2019s and the candidate\u2019s election expense cap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThat is what is so wrong; there will be one rule for the incumbents, one rule for MPs, but other parties will be locked out. This is de facto State funding of political parties. That is what it is. It is de facto funding of these operations. It gives a huge advantage to the parties already in Parliament and a huge advantage to the candidates already here, but everyone else is locked out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a mockery of free expression of speech and it makes a mockery of the whole funding regime. MPs should be subject to the same definition of electioneering as other people, or third parties, as they have been described. Otherwise, it is manifestly unfair and undemocratic. I subscribe to what Voltaire said\u2014or what is attributed to him: \u201CI disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.\u201D That is National\u2019s position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ac45fdbf364397b49fe98843c50d7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ac45fdbf364397b49fe98843c50d7c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Seldom has so much cant been heard from a political party than that which has dribbled out of both sides of National\u2019s mouth in the debate on this bill. We have heard nothing but mock outrage from speaker after speaker. Those members do not believe what they say, but they are saying it for political purposes, and that is the cynicism of this National Party. Its members have constantly misquoted the Human Rights Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhen the bill was introduced to the House and was referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee, the Human Rights Commission made some very important points about the bill as introduced. The commission worked closely with the select committee. It gave advice, it worked alongside the committee, and it ensured, along with the committee, that changes were made to the original bill. The bill as reported back to this Parliament and the amendments made in my name, which have improved on even what the committee did, have led to the Human Rights Commission saying that it is largely happy with this bill, and I will stake my reputation on that comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe National Party is constantly saying that the Human Rights Commission is still very concerned. That is not true. It is time that was put on the record, because one would think that those National members live in a time warp and that absolutely nothing has ever changed. You see, they really believe that there is not a place for a select committee and that there is not a place for a debate like this in this Parliament. That is what they truly believe. We believe that this is the place to debate the issues. This is the place to put amendments on the Table\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a6bae0f5a2f4b748ac7516497dccdeb\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and we were shut down prematurely!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f939c5dd31e140a280c43f29d859b09b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry that Chris Finlayson is interjecting, because I was going to say that at least he has attempted to put forward amendments that could improve this bill, unlike his leader and unlike his deputy leader, who, I believe, have done nothing but stand up in this Chamber and address it in a verbally abusive manner\u2014a manner that I have not seen for many, many years. I believe Bill English\u2019s contribution to this debate on Thursday\u2014when he stood up and abused me in a way that has led to people phoning my office to say that that was absolutely disgusting\u2014is the mark of the man. This is a debate of ideas, this is a place where we can have robust debate, and I believe in robust debate. When a person has to get down to personally denigrating people, when a person has to call them every name found in one\u2019s small brain, then I believe that that person is not prepared to debate the issues, and that he or she wants only to make a political point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EMr Carter said that the ordinary people do not understand. I can tell this Committee that the ordinary people understand only too well. They understand that at the last election National Party members tried to buy an election. They were doing it secretly, they were doing it in an underhand manner, and it was only because the Green Party caught them out that what they were doing was exposed. It would not have been known if that detective work had not been done by the Green Party. We may have had a different result. They were not prepared to own up. In fact, Mr Brash could not remember meeting the Exclusive Brethren. John Key still does not remember receiving the email about the money that was being spent. Is it not amazing that he cannot remember it, but he can remember not receiving it? That must be amazing\u2014being able to remember not receiving an email. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI say to the members opposite that this bill sets out to make it fair for all New Zealanders; that we cannot buy an election in a democracy; and that there is nothing wrong with being honest and transparent about what money we have and where that money comes from. I think Winston Peters raised a very good question indeed. He said \u201CName one business,\u201D\u2014and I would say one person\u2014\u201Cone organisation, that will not be able to participate in next year\u2019s election process.\u201D National members could not name one, because people and organisations are able to participate, they just have to be transparent about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5404055d5af4a4081c02ab76ca3cabb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5404055d5af4a4081c02ab76ca3cabb\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E We are debating the title and the commencement date of the Electoral Finance Bill. We are discussing two big principles here today with this bill, and I think we are confusing them and doing rather a poor job of it. The two big principles are democracy and freedom of speech. In this debate this Committee and, I am afraid, this Government are confusing two quite different things. Freedom of speech is the ability to speak our minds. It is the ability to state our opinions, whether they are right or wrong and whether or not people find them offensive. Of course, there are limits on freedom of speech. We cannot defame someone, we cannot be offensive, and we cannot cause distress in the public theatre by calling out \u201CFire!\u201D when there is no fire. But we are very careful about limiting freedom of speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe have a view that we can express any idea on politics that we care to. We particularly guard those people who want to speak out and whom we oppose, because that is the test of freedom of speech. That is why I have always stood up and said that the Exclusive Brethren should be free to express their political views. The issue is not whether I agree with them; the issue is whether they are free to express it without Government regulation or Government sanction. If we have to get Government recognition or sanction in order to express our political opinion, it is not free speech. That is the point. We should not have to go to the Government and sign up and register with the Government to express our point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe second great principle that we are discussing here is democracy. Somehow, the two have become confused; in order to have a functioning democracy, we have to hobble people\u2019s ability to spend their own money, to express their views, and how they might go about it. We do not. The way we have a democracy is we have one person, one vote, and everyone\u2019s vote counts. The people can vote and change the Government. That is what the definition of a democracy is\u2014a functioning democracy. We do not achieve a democracy by saying: \u201COh, those people over there are too smart. We need to somehow reduce their IQ.\u201D, or \u201CThese people over here are too fit and they could knock on too many doors. We need to somehow slow them down.\u201D, or \u201CThis party over here has too many members. We have to restrict it.\u201D, or \u201CThis party over there has too much money.\u201D, or \u201CThis church group is too organised and is putting out too many pamphlets. Therefore we have to restrict it to somehow level the playing field to achieve a democracy.\u201D No. We achieve a democracy by having each person with one vote, and we achieve freedom of speech by allowing people to express their political views freely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI say that it is a shame that we have conflated those views. It is a shame that this bill has been developed in the most partisan manner possible, with abuse being hurled from one side to the other. I think it is a great shame that the Government and the supporters of this bill have launched into personal attacks on those people who oppose the bill, whether they be individuals, organisations, or, indeed, the news media. We do not normally see that from the Minister Annette King. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec8f35174d24549bf34c7cbb953712a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t seen it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46c0b2be73543ddab9e41ae0de6b04a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I hope that Annette King will stick to the policies. No, I say to the Minister. I heard her attack John Boscawen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f77b7d4898e41b1a9ad6532ac18d4a7\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t mention him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9594eb329e24e78a4c86b817eca16a8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely heard the Minister attack John Boscawen, and I say to her that this is what chills New Zealanders. Citizens should be able to express their view. Newspapers should be able to editorialise, and if we disagree with them, I say to the Minister\u2014and I say to this Government\u2014let us have the debate, not the abuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u002210fe84a09e9e47a99d7de2cb5d93c8d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210fe84a09e9e47a99d7de2cb5d93c8d0\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the passion in Rodney Hide\u2019s speech, but I think it is important to note that the Electoral Finance Bill is not about stopping people from talking. This bill is about applying the same principle\u2014that there should be limits as to how much is spent in a campaign. There are currently limits on political parties and on candidates. The royal commission, 11 years ago, said there should be limits on others, as well, and we are simply enacting that recommendation. This bill is not a breach of freedom of speech. It does not prevent people from being engaged. It makes sure that the rules are sound and apply equitably across all the players in the campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis afternoon I want to specifically mention the amendment in the name of Christopher Finlayson of the National Party to change the date on which this bill comes into force, from \u201Cthe day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D to 1 April 2008. The Greens have never been 100 percent committed to a start date of 1 January. We understand why it is necessary to extend the regulated period, and we need only look at the \u201CIwi/Kiwi\u201D billboard campaign\u2014the racist campaign of the National Party\u2014to realise how early political parties will begin their election campaign and how easily they can avoid their spending caps by campaigning early. So we do believe there should be an extension of the regulated period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOur preference would be for around, say, 1 March. We investigated what it would take in this part of the debate to make that change so that the bill would not apply until 1 March and the regulated period would not apply until 1 March. We found that if a provision such as that written by Chris Finlayson was put forward and passed, it would undermine every aspect of the bill, and this is for quite technical and legal reasons. The amendment would mean that the bill would not come into force until\u2014in National\u2019s amendment\u20141 April. But that would not stop the regulated period. It makes no difference to the regulated period. What it does do is make the bill inherently inconsistent in its provisions. Then the only option is for the law courts to determine whether a regulated period of 1 January applies, whether a regulated period applies retrospectively, whether a regulated period applies only from the date that the bill comes into force\u2014which would be 1 April\u2014or whether, in fact, the regulated period would apply at all because of that inherent inconsistency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIf passed, Chris Finlayson\u2019s amendment would mean that there may not be a regulated period at all. That would mean that the caps would not apply for third parties, for candidates, or for political parties. The National Party would be able to spend anything it liked, because no regulated period would exist if this provision put forward by Chris Finlayson was passed and the law courts found the bill was so inherently inconsistent that they could not apply the regulated period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt does beg the question: if I got that advice and I found that out, with relatively junior experience as a lawyer, then what advice did Chris Finlayson receive? He must have received the same advice. I talked to the Office of the Clerk. I got independent advice about this issue. Chris Finlayson is a much more experienced lawyer than I am and he is much older than I am. He must have got the same advice\u2014that if his provision passed into law, the regulated period as a whole would be at risk and there may not be a regulated period at all, and that would allow the National Party, and indeed any political party, to spend any money it wanted over the whole period right up until the day of the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThat is certainly not a risk that the Green Party would ever be prepared to take. We believe that the reasons behind the regulated period are to help maintain a level playing field and to help ensure an equitable spending regime for political parties, candidates, and third parties, and that that is an important thing to do. We do not believe in eliminating the regulated period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt concerns me a great deal that this might be the covert purpose behind Chris Finlayson\u2019s amendment to shift the date on which the bill comes into force to 1 April. I would be very interested to hear what his advice was and whether he got the same advice that I did, from a variety of sources, that this could indeed be the impact. Perhaps he does not know. Perhaps it was not the advice he got. Perhaps his intention is perfectly innocent. That may well be the case. Certainly there is no way, surely, that the National Party could possibly support eliminating the regulated period so that it could spend whatever it liked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022611eb243623746a998c16d7ceae8592e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022611eb243623746a998c16d7ceae8592e\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E At least the Green Party member is prepared to reveal some of her real intentions about supporting the bill. Somehow this bill is all about not allowing the National Party to do x, y, and z. It is very strange to pass legislation that targets one political party and say one wants a level playing field. But at least the member is trying to tell us some of the real intentions in ramming through this legislation. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Annette King, has been talking about our deputy leader, Bill English, who happens to be accepted in the public and in the media as being about the only person who really understands the Electoral Finance Bill, and all he did was ask some questions about the meaning of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40001c4d5c842808110d364649922b8\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am terribly sorry to interrupt the member, but the sound is so loud that it is actually hurting my ears. Could we have it turned down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c646dff75c64ad79b7a75cf05b7b341\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: That is a compliment, coming from the Hon Judith Tizard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252e6e6c8b8dd422eac72e026e68441d1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: There is not a lot I can do. It is the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8f8bbfceb6464c96d2477483e730cf\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: What a way to complain! Certainly, some of us have voices that can be heard, and that is some consolation to me. I hope the Minister will hear this properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAt least we can tell that there is some consistency among the Labour Government. When the Hon Annette King, the Minister in the chair, cannot answer the questions she blames and attacks the Hon Bill English. All he did was ask some questions about the interpretation of the legislation. The consistency from the Hon Annette King is the same as that from the Prime Minister, Miss Helen Clark. She hit out at the New Zealand Herald when that paper dared to run an editorial asking questions as to why the Labour Government is trying to rush through the legislation. She criticised it as being shallow, error-prone media. She went on to lament that journalists in New Zealand are not taking more interest in the effect of international foreign affairs on New Zealand, and the only reason is that the media outlet did not send enough journalists to cover her photo-opportunity overseas trip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn fact, I did question why, right now, this House is debating the Electoral Finance Bill, when we take into the wider context today\u2019s Dominion Post headline \u201C5000 children \u2018slip through the cracks\u2019 \u201D of not enrolling in any school. In the House today all the Minister of Education could do was ask \u201CHow accurate is 5,000?\u201D. Well, whether it is 4,000 or 5,000 children, the public should be very concerned about that. Also in today\u2019s Dominion Post was a statement: \u201CCourageous neighbours are being praised for saving the life of a mother who was being stabbed repeatedly in the middle of the night.\u201D I would suggest that the wider context out in the public is about law and order, education, and the health system falling apart because of too much bureaucracy and not much attention paid to the real issues. Here we are with the Labour Government continuing to engage in pushing through legislation, with the help of the New Zealand First doormats, that the public does not want passed. Ten thousand people marched in the street, and the Labour Government will simply not take notice. Well, actually I can see why MPs like Doug Woolerton from New Zealand First want to rush through this legislation. I understand he wants to support this legislation because the existing MPs and political parties in the Parliament actually have the right advantage in passing this legislation. Candidates who are not in the Parliament from 1 January would have only $20,000 to spend until whenever election day is, but MPs and elected political parties right now in Parliament can spend whatever they like. Why do we have this benefit and privilege? It is because the Labour Government rushed through legislation to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220f5a3818f7f9426ba1d581fb816ce0a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f5a3818f7f9426ba1d581fb816ce0a4\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E As David Benson-Pope noted earlier this afternoon, it is important to look at the Electoral Finance Bill in its wider context. This is the second time in this term of Parliament that we on this side of the Committee have listened to the Labour-led Government defending the indefensible, and the public know it. The public can see right through what is going on in this Committee. At about this time last year the Government introduced the Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224daa11cb48724bbd91bb8c7f21fb0741\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Was that a year ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c91a17e203f4bb38cc4717ca41927f3\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a year ago, and the appropriation legislation was updated earlier this month as well. The Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill was, of course, to retrospectively make legal that which was illegal. I never thought I would see the day when I would sit in the House of Parliament debating a bill that had as its core purpose to make legal that which was illegal. My forebears will be spinning in their graves. This Labour-led coalition Government passed legislation at about this time last year to cover its butt after spending $800,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014not party money, not money it had raised itself, but taxpayers\u2019 money, our money, our taxation money\u2014on its air-brushed pledge card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Auditor-General, Kevin Brady, wrote a report about the time of that bill and he made several points in it. The first thing that the Auditor-General noted was: \u201CI thought there was little doubt that it was not permissible to use public money from the Party and Member Support appropriations for electioneering. I expected MPs and parliamentary parties to be especially careful in that area.\u201D But not the Labour Party, which is why about this time last year we had the Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill to make it legal. I say that is shameful in this House of Parliament. So what do we have now? The Labour Party was shamed\u2014some parties in this House have not been\u2014into eventually paying that taxpayer funding back, and now it is broke. The Labour Party is broke and that is the truth about what is behind this current bill in front of us. The Labour Government is broke, and so it wants once again to screw the scrum with the Electoral Finance Bill. This bill\u2014the second piece of reprehensible legislation we are debating today\u2014is all about Government funding by stealth by a broke Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill is purely about screwing the scrum in favour of the Government. This bill is not about providing a fair playing field\u2014those claims are nonsense. This bill is openly about Labour trying to win another election. Well, how noble is that? I would suggest to members that this is the second shameful piece of legislation brought to this Committee by this current Labour-led coalition Government. Every mention we hear in this Committee of this bill nobbling National\u2019s rich mates reeks of tall poppy envy. Well, guess what? This Parliament should be better than that. We should be passing law in this Parliament better than that. The Minister Rick Barker in his speech openly acknowledged that this bill is about nobbling National\u2019s supporters while protecting those who support this bereft Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022605eef0f9d7a42b58185358e185c952e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605eef0f9d7a42b58185358e185c952e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call until the member alluded to the Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill that we passed last year in this Parliament. I know that we are debating the Electoral Finance Bill, but I want to clarify a few things that went on with regard to the other bill. The member alluded to documents like the pledge card that are meant to be illegal, such as this National Party pledge card, which was put through the letterboxes of just about everybody in the country in 2002. The rules did not change between 2002 and 2005, and I cannot see for the life of me any difference between this card and the Labour Party\u2019s pledge card. But I can see a lot of difference between both of those cards and this. This is a policy document that outlines New Zealand First\u2019s policies, and the Auditor-General would ping us for $159,000, in large measure, over it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI just happened to meet the Auditor-General on the plane last week. He came up to me and we had quite a cordial discussion, which in some way surprised me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e7ed49d7db4185a333322b5e25fa8e\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Did he know who you were?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906793dc08e04c3fa633b238599df7ae\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did. He knew exactly who I was. I asked him one or two questions. He said that he is very, very pleased that Parliament has passed the Appropriation (Continuation of Interim Meaning of Funding for Parliamentary Purposes) Bill. The Auditor-General told me personally that he is very pleased that we passed that bill, because it sets down in law what we have been doing under Speakers\u2019 directions for many a year. That party over there, the National Party, has taken more advantage of the rules and regulations in this place than any other political party has, by a country mile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe need the Electoral Finance Bill. New Zealand First will support this bill because we are well on record as saying that we want politicians to be honest. We are honest, and we want to keep politicians honest. That used to be our campaign slogan. This bill makes the process honest, and we are going to support it. I know what is upsetting the National members: they cannot get their mates, as they did in 2005, to invest in brochures in a de facto way. There was $1.2 million spent on producing brochures in support of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6df9121fc2b4320a0768089ae7c4835\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: Is that OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223235f784a37a48938f68a0a0ddc6c334\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is not OK, and the member knows that. It is a long way from being OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has no opposition at all to third parties\u2014people who do not want to be part of a political party\u2014getting involved in the process. It has no objection to that at all. But we want there to be controls. There are caps on individuals. There is an election campaign cap of $20,000 per candidate and of $1 million for a party. It is only right and proper that other parties\u2014not political parties, but other outside organisations\u2014that want to play a part in the election process should be financially capped, as well. The debate should have been about whether that limit is adequate, too much, too little, or what have you. I think that the amount was $60,000 in the original version of the bill, and it was doubled when the bill came back from the Justice and Electoral Committee. The National members should have argued about whether that was enough or not enough. I could see some merit in doing that, but I cannot see merit in saying we are going to have an uncapped system and let an outside organisation put as much money as it wants into influencing the way that New Zealanders vote. That is why New Zealand First is supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have said before in this Chamber that that issue was recognised by the Royal Commission on the Electoral System, which stated: \u201CIt is illogical to limit spending by parties if other interests are not also controlled. Supporters or opponents of a party or candidate should not be able to promote their views without restriction merely by forming campaign organisations \u2018unaffiliated\u2019 to any party. \u2026 Nor should powerful or wealthy interest groups be able to spend without restriction during an election campaign while [the parties] are restricted.\u201D That was stated by the Royal Commission on the Electoral System. Members opposite may not like MMP, but we have got it. The public voted for it, we have got it, and it will be honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6d1ece71c1f48cfa28cd9407febe5d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6d1ece71c1f48cfa28cd9407febe5d8\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to challenge the statement made by Annette King earlier, which came as quite a shock to this side of the Chamber, and certainly it would have come as a shock to those listening. She said there is not a third party across New Zealand\u2014any lobby group, or one of those groups interested in the political environment or in laws passing through Parliament\u2014that is in any way stopped or prevented from freely expressing its view in election year. If she is saying that such third parties are not impeded in any way, that tells us in the National Party that Annette King and the Labour Government just do not get it. There used to be a time when Plunket, Women\u2019s Refuge, the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society, or any one of a myriad of organisations in New Zealand could just put ads in the paper, or could picket, or pick up a megaphone, or send out pamphlets and freely criticise what any political party was saying in election year. Members of those organisations could just get up in the morning and go out and protest, or they could run an ad in the New Zealand Herald. Members of the Littlies Lobby, Plunket, Women\u2019s Refuge, or the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society could get up in the morning and deliver pamphlets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThat is what they used to be able to do, before this legislation. Now those organisations or any other organisation have to fill in forms and go through some sort of bureaucracy. They have to send those forms into the Electoral Commission saying everything they want to do and what ads they will run\u2014whatever. That is the first thing. They have to go through all this bureaucracy just to have a view. Secondly, they have to employ a financial officer to oversee what little money they have to spend in an election year putting forward their view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo, first, they have to go through all this bureaucracy; secondly, they have to start employing administrators in order to submit their spending returns, their advertising, and their pamphlets. So what we have is these organisations across New Zealand, which by far in the majority are voluntary, and which struggle to raise funds for women\u2019s refuges, for the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society, for Plunket, or for whatever it might be, having to spend time, money, and resources on bureaucracy on the one hand, and on administrators on the other hand, just to have their say as Kiwis, as New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First does not care about that, for two reasons. One is that there is no private citizen in New Zealand who wants to give it any money any more to help its campaign. New Zealand First is bleeding votes and no one wants to send it a cheque. Secondly, it does not care whether the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society, Plunket, Women\u2019s Refuge, or any other organisation in this country wants to have its say, because those organisations speak against New Zealand First. New Zealand First is against freedom of speech and, of course, those organisations want freedom of speech. That is why New Zealand First opposes that, and it is why Winston Peters is now sniffing out Tauranga again. It is because the vote for New Zealand First is way down at 2 percent, and for the Labour Party the vote is way down at about 30 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EHere is how absurd this legislation is. The Minister who promoted this legislation did not realise that it does not relate just to cash given to political parties. It could be timber for signage. It could be crayfish for some sort of fund-raiser. When that was pointed out to her by the Electoral Commission itself she was shocked to find that a lot of people give donations in kind, not just cash, to political parties. She had arranged that all those donations, whether they were cash, signage, crayfish, or whatever, would have to be sent to Wellington and put through the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022b519f4e7510d406f8fac27c0307e1cbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b519f4e7510d406f8fac27c0307e1cbe\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I want to correct one thing that Phil Heatley said. Although he said many things that were total garbage, there is one thing that I want to correct. He constantly used the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society as his evidence against the Electoral Finance Bill. I assure the member that all the concerns raised in the society\u2019s submission have been addressed and met and the society is happy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbf36bec2e3b4f23a77959cf50bdbac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbf36bec2e3b4f23a77959cf50bdbac7\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would take a short call on behalf of the Green Party to talk a little bit about the free speech issue from another direction. I think the Electoral Finance Bill will improve the free speech of people like my colleague Chris Finlayson and others who I know have an independent mind. I would not like them to have to suffer the restrictions on their free speech that come with big bucks being poured into political campaigns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI sympathise with the right to free speech of the National Party and the ACT party, etc., because I do not want us to go down the track the United States has clearly gone down. If one reads the lead-up to the nominating conventions of the Democratic and Republican parties one sees that the discussion in relation to the contest between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama is all about who has the most money\u2014who has the most millions of dollars. That is the key thing in the campaign. People know that the result of the Democratic nomination will be decided largely by who has the big bucks, who can put the adverts on television, and who can swamp the places where the primary elections are held. That is what it is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere are articles all over the American press on this issue. Take, for example, Hillary Clinton, who, even though she has personal views that are quite liberal\u2014a bit like Chris Finlayson in our Parliament\u2014has been pushed towards what is called the centre, or we could call it the right, because that is where the interests of big money are. That is a pattern across America. We need only look at the senators and Congress people. The senator from Washington state is often called the \u201CSenator for Boeing\u201D, because Boeing is the big company in that state. Boeing gives money and it determines who gets the senatorial position in Washington state. So although the \u201CSenator for Boeing\u201D might have different views from Boeing, he or she has to suppress those views. That is the way American democracy works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEven with the little bit of gifting we get in this Parliament today we have to be careful\u2014and it is happening as we move towards Christmas; I think all MPs have received a half-dozen pack of beer from Lion Breweries recently. We in the Green Party have to work out some way of shifting that on without being bought off by it. But, psychologically, all those gifts have an impact. We do not want to offend people who are friendly towards us and who might give us things, when it is only on a minor scale. But if this bill is not passed and the funding of political parties goes really out of control, then we will move more and more down the track of the American situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI would not like people like Chris Finlayson to be under that pressure of big money too much. I have found I have quite a lot of common ground with Chris Finlayson on issues of democratic rights and things like that. I am trying to save him by opposing National\u2019s amendments and the direction the National Party is taking on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Electoral Finance Bill is not a perfect bill. Everyone knows that, and that is why the Green Party is putting forward the idea of a Citizens\u2019 Assembly, assisted by experts, to have a look at this whole question, and to a large extent to take out of the hands of politicians the control of how election financing is determined. We do have self-interests, and I think it would be good if the public could play a greater role in determining the restrictions on election funding\u2014how they take place, and how they take place in the best way to enable free speech. That is my view. We have a model in the United States of what happens without that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022e26316fe26634c43adc06e93510f6dbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e26316fe26634c43adc06e93510f6dbc\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on clauses 1 and 2. I suggest that maybe the title of the bill should be \u201CWe Lost and We Just Can\u2019t Accept It Bill\u201D, because in our area most of the noise has come from Labour MPs who lost their seats to National Party people\u2014now members of Parliament. They cannot accept that they lost because they did not do the work. They want to believe\u2014and they truly believe in their illusion\u2014that their seats were stolen from them by the Exclusive Brethren. Well, if we look at the pamphlet put out by the Exclusive Brethren, we see that the one naive mistake they made that separates what they did from whatever the unions did was to put a false address on it. They thought they were so smart that they could get away with putting a false address\u2014or an empty section, should I say\u2014on the form authorising the pamphlet. But the guts of the pamphlet was exactly the same as what the unions had put out. So we have the naive Exclusive Brethren and we have the unions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is really interesting to consider exactly how the unions go about raising their funds. I have a mate in the Dairy Workers Union, who, prior to the election, went along to a meeting where somebody stood up and moved that the union give $10,000 to the Labour Party. With his best mate standing for National in the electorate, my mate said: \u201COnly if we give $10,000 to the National Party.\u201D What happened? Two bloody great big union delegates got out of their seats up the front, and came and sat down one on either side of him\u2014tipping out the people who had been sitting there\u2014and put their hands on his knees. It was not that they were snuggling up to him; it was to make sure he would not get up and say anything else. What that says to me is that the Labour Party is quite happy to accept extorted money. It is quite happy to accept money that is extorted, but it is unhappy when, in an election campaign, other people accept support that is freely given\u2014or so we were told in a television documentary that was done soon after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ETo have the address of an empty section on a pamphlet is naive, but it reminded me very much of a couple of things the Labour Party did\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208b24d1381074a28bb26350e69aab0df\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: It was deceit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282cdee81e3e947ea8a50625812a70e87\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: Deceiving? Deceiving, like what? Well, it was deceiving, for instance, to have certain dead people vote in the Wairarapa election in 1987. Labour was caned for that. Another little deception was the misuse of the Privacy Act whereby in the last election campaign Labour got the names and addresses of State house tenants from Government records, wrote to every one of them, and put out its propaganda. No Labour Party members have ever stood to justify that action of Labour as part of its strategy for that campaign. It just goes to show that their morals are lopsided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThen they talk about anonymous donations. They cane the National Party for apparently receiving anonymous donations, without their ever accepting or explaining that in 1999 they accepted $800,000 worth of anonymous donations. And what do you know? They did it again! In 2002 they accepted $350,000 worth of anonymous donations. But, hey, that is OK! And what do you know? They did it again! In 2005 they got just about $300,000 in anonymous donations\u2014and that was OK! The only thing that really winds them up is that they did not get as much as National. Well, what do you know! The reason for that is the tide is going out; the tide is going out for Labour. Its members understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAnother thing they have never explained is the $800,000 worth of taxpayers\u2019 money they took from their leader\u2019s office budget to use for their pledge card and for other parts of the campaign\u2014$400,000 for that. Did they explain that? No, they did not, nor will they. They accept that they were wrong. They have even paid it back. Well, that is not so bad. Maybe New Zealand First could take a leaf out of their book. So they have paid the $800,000 back, but have they moved, through this legislation, to make sure that that cannot be done again? No, they have not. Why not? Apparently, they are as pure as the driven snow; they are the only ones on the right side of anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThey cannot accept that they lost those seats because they did not do the work or were seen as useless. They never showed up. Throughout the 7-month campaign run in Whanganui, I twice saw one of the most vociferous critics of the Exclusive Brethren. She did not have it in her!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022415e49af8ff24f2d8246a281ed99810a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022415e49af8ff24f2d8246a281ed99810a\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E It would be really easy to stand up here in the Chamber this afternoon during the debate on the title and commencement clauses of this bill and suggest a few alternative titles. But the first thing I want to do is to assure the Minister that on this side of the Chamber she is not seeing mock outrage, at all. There is no mockery in what we are debating here today. I can assure her that we are responding to the many, many New Zealanders who have told us how much they dislike this bill and who have said they do not want their freedom of speech shut down. I have replied to them that I will be vigorously opposing this bill\u2014and I have done so\u2014and that I will be doing it with the support of my colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThis bill could well be relabelled the \u201CBill of Wrongs\u201D, and if we did relabel it with that title, we would need to attribute that good idea to the Listener, which is widely thought of as a left-leaning publication. But back in August they already knew at the Listener that the assertion of former Minister Mark Burton that the Government was \u201Cseeking to encourage full and open expression from a diverse range of interests in the run-up to a general election\u201D was bogus. As a Listener editorial said, this bill could hardly be less likely to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EPeter Brown told us that New Zealand First wants controls, and that it wants this bill to supply the controls, on the way that election campaigning is undertaken. That would be absolutely fine if we had cross-party support, and if in fact it did not result in a lessening of the freedom of speech\u2014a lessening of the democracy that we have come to rely on in this country. Similarly, the bill could be retitled the \u201CShut Down the Voice of New Zealanders Bill\u201D. This bill seeks to dissuade New Zealanders from making comments, during the course of the election period, through registration processes. The bill could be labelled the \u201CLast Gasp for Labour\u2019s Future Bill\u201D. Unashamedly, this Government is using the bill to shut down debate, to shut down criticism, and to make it very difficult for anyone to participate in debates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBut\u2014and this is a very big, capital-letters, in-bold \u201Cbut\u201D\u2014at the same time, this Government will authorise millions of taxpayer-funded advertisements to promote its policies, in order to flood the minds and consciousness of the public as it makes decisions about New Zealand\u2019s future. The description in the Dominion Post last month of this attitude by the Labour Government\u2014one of attempting to elevate ambition over ethics\u2014is very apt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb1529150df40c583a2f27b5a5e8794\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Gosh, you\u2019re great at mock outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246c0e371f09b468c9d7e55e091759e2b\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: And this is not mock outrage; I am outraged, and I can tell the Minister that I have waited a long time to stand and represent the outrage of the people of Aoraki, as well. Next year the courts will determine how this bill is interpreted. Lawyers will grapple with this ill-conceived, ill-drafted, shambolic bill, and New Zealanders will further develop their unease. That unease is currently showing in polling. This is an unprincipled, desperate, unethical, abysmal apology for legislation. It is a disgrace to this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe commencement date of this bill is a sham. The legislation seeks to control debate for a period unprecedented in New Zealand\u0027s history\u201411 months. There is no need to wonder why; this desperate Government is clinging on to power and seems oblivious to the scraping of its fingernails on the blackboard of power. New Zealanders are cringing as they hear that sound. They are recognising the antics that smack of an anti-democratic process. Thousands have marched in the streets to protest the rigmarole they will be put through to participate in the democratic process. Many of those people have never participated, or openly criticised the Government or any other political party, in the past, but they are affronted by this apparent attempt to stifle the freedom of speech in next year\u2019s election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBut, worse still, this Government is not just desperate. It is not even dateless. Unfortunately, on its date it is carrying with it New Zealand First, the Progressive party, United Future, and the Green Party. No, it is not dateless, but certainly on this occasion the minor parties are not discerning in their choice of a date. They, too, are being recognised by the public of New Zealand for their partnership in this sorry saga. A healthy democracy should not tolerate this attempt to rort the democratic process. The Law Society has trumpeted the failure of this bill, and the Human Rights Commission has added a strangely cautionary note, given that this is a Labour Government bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c04144624c3d4fb1a6f03174d5622f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c04144624c3d4fb1a6f03174d5622f9e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003EI did not actually intend to speak on this part, but I feel I have to. I have to tell people who are listening about all of these people in New Zealand who are rising up against this bill. I will talk about something I read in the newspaper. I am not slagging off John Boscawen or anything like that, but to get the 5,000 people to the march in Auckland that the whole of New Zealand was worried about, he had to enlist the services of a secretary. Then he had to enlist the services of telephone survey people\u2014from a foreign telemarketing organisation\u2014and have them ring 82,000 Aucklanders to get 5,000 to a march. That is what he had to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ELet me tell members what the National Party had to do in order to get even a modicum of dissent over this bill. Through its membership it had to put out an email campaign, the likes of which we have never seen before. It put out, through an email campaign to all its members, a directive telling every member to go to another member, etc.\u2014like a pyramid-selling scheme\u2014in order to bring awareness of this bill to the forefront. This was to raise National members\u2019 anger against this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBut do members here know what? It has not done that. Outside the National Party and outside the 5,000 people who went to John Boscawen\u2019s meeting, after 82,000 phone calls, numerous ads in the newspaper, and numerous radio ads the public of New Zealand is actually reasonably relaxed about this bill. I have had people say to me\u2014National Party people mainly, because I still know a lot of them from the old days\u2014\u201CDoug, you\u2019ll rue the day that you voted for this bill.\u201D Well, I can tell members that we do not give a damn that those National Party people have been rarked up. National Party people do not vote for us. A few might after this election, I might add, but, by and large, National Party people do not vote for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo National members have been rarking up their own people, and John Boscawen has been working diligently to get 5,000 people to a march. This has all been organised to a degree that the New Zealand union movement could only envy. The union movement would envy the organisation, the money, and the friends enlisted to get this level of concern in New Zealand about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI tell members that average New Zealanders are not concerned about this bill. They do not want their elections bought, and they do not want their elections corrupted by people who have a really strange view of the world\u2014people who are mainly intent on pushing their own views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI can tell members that John Boscawen came to see me; I invited him to come to have a chat. I will not quote what he said to me but it is suffice for the Committee to know that he really means what he says and that he does not understand the electoral system completely. So intent is he on spending in excess of the limits prescribed by this bill that he said he would set up his own political party in order to achieve that. I said: \u201CGreat! That is precisely what the bill intends. If people want to participate as citizens, they spend so much\u2014no problem. If they want to spend more than that, they register as a third party. If they want to extend all those limits, they list as a political party.\u201D That is what the bill intended, yet so intent is he that he sees it as his cunning little plan\u2014he says so in the newspaper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe bill allows what John Boscawen intends. The bill understands that people will want to spend different amounts of money. But in the future such people will be known; they will not be able to run some sort of subversive campaign to help another political party break its spending limits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00220d7c189bb53b46a89d9fcc951052e7b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d7c189bb53b46a89d9fcc951052e7b6\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am proud\u2014absolutely proud\u2014to oppose this Draconian Electoral Finance Bill. This is a dark day for democracy; it is a black day. I attended those marches, the two in Auckland and the one in Wellington, and I can assure the Committee that the people in the marches were very concerned about the implications of this bill. There were many banners. There was a big banner saying \u201CDemocracy under threat\u201D. Other banners said things like \u201CI live in New Zealand, not Zimbabwe\u201D, \u201CNew Zealanders should not be gagged\u201D, and \u201CLabour\u2014thieves of democracy\u201D. Banners were held by war veterans that said \u201COur soldiers did not die for this\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI read the Hansard record where the Rt Hon Winston Peters had made belittling remarks about members who stood up and affirmed those banners that said \u201COur soldiers did not die for this\u201D. He has no regard for our soldiers and what they fought for. I say he insults their memory, quite frankly. I am wearing my father\u2019s medals from World War II, during which he fought in the Middle East. I am really proud to wear them today. He was the first person to sign up in the South Island town he grew up in. He did not hesitate to fight for his country and for human rights. He would be insulted by and appalled at this bill if he were alive today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister and the small parties who support this bill have badly underestimated the depth of feeling out there in New Zealand. I say to those parties they have got it wrong\u2014they have read the people wrongly. They have been blind, and they cannot see how the bill has impacted on people. This bill has gone beyond the Wellington beltway; it is an issue all over New Zealand. With regard to the first march in Auckland, when there were 2,000 people, the Prime Minister said that they were just ACT and National supporters. Two weeks later there was a march of 5,000 people. What did the Prime Minister say about that? She said it was a relatively small number of troops. That was a patronising, arrogant comment from the Prime Minister. Those 5,000 people were not dragged out of their homes to come to the march. They were not coerced in any way; they got there under their own steam. There were children, mums, and dads. There were ordinary New Zealanders from all walks of life. Those people had never marched before. At the end of the protest involving 5,000 people, the marchers were asked to put up their hands if they had never protested before. Members should have seen the hands go up; they shot up in the air. Those people were not protesters; they were ordinary New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis Government has been arrogant and dismissive of ordinary New Zealanders, and it will pay the price for that at the election in 2008, mark my words. I say shame on Helen Clark and this arrogant Government, which is so desperate to get a fourth term that it has come to this. The Government has spurned the advice of such organisations as the Law Society and the Human Rights Commission. It is ignoring the sentiment, feeling, and passion of New Zealanders. It is arrogant and dismissive of the depth of feeling against this bill. I will give Government members one piece of advice: this issue is registering way beyond the beltway. Those members will get the message loud and clear come election day in 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis is an anti-democratic bill. In a democracy people should be free to voice their opinions. They should be free to criticise the Government, they should be free to criticise the Opposition, and they should be free to put their point of view\u2014that is a sign of a healthy democracy. This legislation will not allow them to do that. The media, which is the traditional watchdog of public opinion, distilling information and reporting it, has come out in an unprecedented move. Editorials up and down the country are slamming this bill for what it is. If that does not give members on the other side a clear message, I do not know what will. The people, the press\u2014everyone is against this bill. And all that the Prime Minister can do is to criticise the media\u2014as she did recently at a journalism conference. There was a particular editorial in the New Zealand Herald that said that if this bill is passed, it will become Labour\u2019s epitaph. That is true; come 2008 that will be the epitaph on Labour\u2019s coffin. The Government will be out on its ear. The people will vote\u2014they will vote with their feet, their minds, and their hearts, and the Labour Government will be out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt is crazy that nobody understands this bill. Even the Minister of Justice does not understand it. She says the law of common sense will prevail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b9dbb95fb4d4d4ba4bf2c039a24a287\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3861957f2a14cc49e1fcd8e84e20cf5\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: The law of common sense. We are told we need to talk to lawyers, but I tell members that the only winners will be the lawyers. The loser will be democracy in New Zealand, which will die. National has had very grave concerns right from day one about the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3e0f522ed3a4ea7bac7a03275b56199\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3e0f522ed3a4ea7bac7a03275b56199\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I am compelled to take a call in what will be the final debate in the Committee stage on the Electoral Finance Bill, on its title and commencement. I wish to make some comments on both. In regard to whether the title is appropriate, my suggestion to the Committee would be that the title of the bill would more appropriately be the \u201CWe Will Find Another Way Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe Labour members of this House\u2014and to some extent the New Zealand First members\u2014have been standing up and saying this is a principled argument, and that they do not believe in having, for example, anonymous donations. But as one of my colleagues\u2014I think it was Chester Borrows\u2014pointed out, significant amounts of anonymous donations were going into the Labour coffers, going back over the various elections as far as we can see. Government members think the issue is not that we have anonymous donations; it is that National got more than they got. So therefore they said we needed to move to a State-funding model. Having not been able to get agreement to a State-funding model, they then changed the rules so that Government expenditure kind of counts in an indirect way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EA example from a little story may illustrate the point. You see, George Bernard Shaw, the playwright of Irish descent, was dining with a notable lady of his time. During the course of the meal he said to her: \u201CWill you sleep with me for \u20A410,000?\u201D. The lady thought for some time and then said: \u201CYes.\u201D Later on during the course of the evening, he said to her: \u201CWill you sleep with me for \u20A45?\u201D. Her response was: \u201CGoodness me! What do you think I am?\u201D. He said: \u201CWe\u2019ve already established what you are, and we are now bargaining.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI say there is a parallel, exactly, with what Labour has done here. It does not believe in anonymous donations, but it has found another way and it will use the Parliamentary Service money to endorse its members as candidates. I say there is no principle in that for which those members can hold up their hands. Labour at the last election\u2014and we have had plenty of examples of this\u2014broke the rules, and it continued to break the rules even after the Auditor-General warned it that what was happening was indeed outside the spectrum of what was allowed. What did we get after that? We got some kind of retrospective fix-it-up. So, again, we have the \u201CWe Will Find Another Way Bill\u201D. If Labour could not change the rules retrospectively, it is to change them right now so that Government members can find another way to use resources in order to endorse themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI now make a comment about the commencement date. A number of submitters have said that this bill is not easily understood and that they do not know what its implications are. If we move on from the Committee stage without changing that commencement date and pass this bill, we are locking ourselves into a starting date after the bill gets the Royal assent, and that will be pretty close to immediately in the new year\u2014maybe on 1 January. If we do that, we will be starting with a set of rules at a time when Parliament is not sitting, and when it is impossible to discern exactly what some of the provisions actually mean. We have given examples of those provisions, asking what this clause or that clause means, and we still do not know what those clauses mean. Yet we will be starting to work with legislation that is seriously flawed in interpretation and flawed in clarifying exactly what the rules are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo there needs to be a shift in terms of the commencement date. If we do nothing else, we need to set the date back, so that we have time to get some discernment and clarification. It is all very fine for the Minister to say we will come up with an explanation later, determine matters later, or do whatever else he may say. But we are actually entering an election year, and we need to know whether our behaviour, our expenditure, and the way that we conduct ourselves are captured\u2014we need to know what is inside or outside the rules. To start the commencement of this bill immediately on 1 January 2008, because that is an election year, would bring a great deal of litigation, I suggest, throughout the whole process of the election. It can have no other outcome, because there is such a lack of understanding of this legislation. Parts of it are completely incomprehensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022401a783a920c401b9dd6f3490d81979c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022401a783a920c401b9dd6f3490d81979c\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E I was particularly anxious, after days of trying, to get a call on the Committee stage of the Electoral Finance Bill, because I want it recorded for all time in the annals of this House that I am one of those members who spoke against and voted against this attack on the democratic tradition of this country\u2014and that is what this bill is. I ask the members opposite\u2014the Labour members and the members of Labour\u2019s coalition partners\u2014to lift up their heads and listen to what is being said in this House and in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI will focus just for a moment on the commencement date of the bill. What is the rush? No sound democracy rushes this sort of change through its legislative process. If the Government is determined to pass this bill, then what does it matter if it is delayed a little while, in order to give New Zealanders a little bit more time to pause and reflect on it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EGoodness, gracious me! The United States Constitution\u2014that brilliant document of democracy\u2014was not rushed through almost in the quiet of the night by a desperate Government and its coalition partners. I have a message for those coalition partners. I say to those members of New Zealand First, the Greens, and United Future that they should understand very, very clearly. This bill is progressing through this Parliament only because those members are voting for it. If it were not for the minor parties voting for this legislation, then it would not be passing through this Committee at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWe know that it is part of the New Zealand tradition that on major matters of such significance the big parties talk and thrash it out. The reason the Government is not being required to thrash it out with the National Party is that the Government is calling on the votes of minor parties\u2014[Interruption] There he goes: the list member from New Zealand First. What is his name? Mr Woolerton is screeching and shouting, and screeching and shouting, instead of just stepping back and thinking about the harm he is doing to the electoral future of his party by supporting this socialist Government on legislation that undermines the democratic traditions of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EIn rushing the commencement date of this legislation, what does the Labour Government, and the screeching member from New Zealand First, not understand? Let me tell members what Government members\u2019 problem is. Their problem is that they are control freaks. They want to get control of every aspect of New Zealand life, and they could never do that more effectively than by taking control of a nation\u2019s democratic processes and using them in a way that brings them absolutely no credit at all. It brings no credit at all to the Government, no credit at all to New Zealand First, and no credit at all to the Green Party. It staggers me that representatives of small parties have been prepared to stand up in this Chamber and advance arguments that do no credit to them at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is paying a high price for the Labour Government\u2019s need to control and dominate every aspect of New Zealand life. When will Labour members understand that just because things in a democratic process do not go their way, and just because New Zealanders stand up and demand to be heard, it need not be the case that it somehow becomes legitimate in their minds for them to use their majority\u2014slim as it is\u2014in this Chamber to undermine the democratic traditions of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5c3c8abdda647afa75eea526f356935\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of hokum!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8cb1c866cf24243838c58acb37c66a6\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there he goes again\u2014the boring member from New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022405160079e2044c4b6bff33236ab3c4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022405160079e2044c4b6bff33236ab3c4e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E What we have here is desperate attempt to litigate the last election, not the next election. It is a desperate attempt to re-litigate the last election, in 2005. We could almost call this the \u201CLook Back in Anger Bill\u201D, because that is what Labour is doing. Those members are looking back in anger. Let us see the constructs of this bill. What was it that inspired it? Well, there were technicalities that needed correction. I do not think that anybody has disputed that. Doing that is a good idea. It is a good idea, but there is a mind in Labour\u2014and I do not think that mind is present in the House\u2014that thought: \u201CLet us use this to some advantage. Let us leverage on it.\u201D What was it that really hurt those members in the last election? Let us think about that. It was the early demonstration of National\u2019s hoardings. \u201CWe are not having those again.\u201D, said the mind. \u201CHow can we stop it?\u201D, asked the others. The mind said: \u201CBring the date forward. They have that in England. Bring it to the beginning of the year. That will stop National\u2019s hoardings, which did us so much harm.\u201D So we have an early programme and an early date. It is borrowed legislation. The trouble with borrowed legislation is that it fits only where it hits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIf we look at the English situation, with due respect to Labour, it does not seem to be working over there because, I believe, there have been fingers in the till in spite of that Government\u2019s having policy that Labour thinks is so suitable for us. I would suggest that it was not the genesis of the parliamentary wing of Labour that developed this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851102ade62e4ed0a159fc0aa06303cd\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Who did it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f5e845259144528f646923cf0a768a\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the mind is somewhere in there, but also it started to get clever. Again, we look at the constructs. The mind said: \u201CLet us ask the Greens to help us. If we have enough of a majority, then we do not have to involve bipartisan discussion.\u201D What position were the Greens in after the last election? Someone, a dogma-driven, idealist-structured, and single-minded group of people, had produced a pamphlet\u2014a pamphlet; how dreadful! So that must be stopped and these groups must be stopped. The Greens were happy fodder for the clever, clever constructs. One could say that they were sucked in. What inspired them to do that? I guess it is a case of recognising in others that which one sees in oneself, because if we were to ask which party in Parliament was principally dogma-driven, idealist-structured, and single-minded, then I think the Green Party would qualify for those meritorious points. Those members saw in others that which must be stopped, because they know it works against them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First, with its vociferous spokesman on this issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0db8d8f95244e40aebe61f2c2055373\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Squawking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd24a148c7e48328298939817e20344\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not call him squawking; he is vociferous. I am put in mind of some of those geographic films on television about the animals, where the main contestants are fighting away and there is always someone lurking around the edges, waiting for some advantage. That is what I am reminded of with New Zealand First members. And United Future members will simply wait and see, although I understand they said that they would not support this legislation in the event of urgency being used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELet us spend a minute looking at the process. I sat through, I think, the majority of the Justice and Electoral Committee meetings and I would suggest the process could be described as a shameful sham. Lynne Pillay, who is in every other respect a pleasant person, was the same every day\u2014she had nothing intelligent or constructive to say. She used to say: \u201CIt has been decided. The Greens have agreed.\u201D, and when we considered discussion, she said we had no need. I have heard her say in this Chamber in response to one of the remarks made by my colleague Mr Finlayson that there was very little considered discussion on this bill. She said that Labour had the majority\u2014in other words, ipso facto, there was no need for discussion. I thought this was supposed to be a Parliament. That is what I came here for: a discussion for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00225095f0e6063f44449d7093ada6bd2be5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225095f0e6063f44449d7093ada6bd2be5\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak to clause 1, \u201CTitle\u201D, and I suggest that a better name for the Electoral Finance Bill would be the \u201CLet\u2019s Shoot Ourselves in the Foot Bill\u201D. I was talking to a lefty friend of mine\u2014not being tribal like members of the Labour Party, I have lots of lefty friends; poor, misguided souls that they are\u2014and this person was telling me about all the campaigns in which he was involved in past years. He was involved in Save Manap\u014Duri. He was involved in anti - Viet Nam War campaigns. He was involved in anti - Springbok Tour campaigns. He was involved in antinuclear campaigns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200738ac1f1514dbd9fd64e36ee78f897\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: He was a serial protester.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224531afbff6f7415fad4768975f017143\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: He was a good friend of Mr Hughes. The point made by him, and I think a very good point, was that this could not happen in 2008\u2014a person could not run a campaign like Save Manap\u014Duri in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI ask Mr Duynhoven to take a good look at clause 5(1)(a)(ii), because it does not talk explicitly about political parties but it talks about \u201Ca type of party or \u2026 type of candidate that is described or indicated by reference to views, positions, or policies that are or are not held, \u2026 (whether or not the name of a party or the name of a candidate is stated);\u201D. This is one of the big misconceptions on the part of the Labour Party and its support parties when dealing with this legislation. Indeed, there was a very interesting answer given by Mr Dunne, the member for Ohariu-Belmont, to a person who posted something on a United Future website a few days ago. This person said: \u201CIf the opinion can be seen as encouraging or persuading people to support or not support a party or candidate or class of party or candidate it will be limited. If you want to run a campaign which says \u2018Support parties which support Kyoto\u2019 then that is captured.\u201D Mr Dunne responded by saying that was wrong. He said to this fellow, who was called Dave: \u201CTo be caught, a group has to be spending more than $120,000 in support of a particular party,\u201D. Mr Dunne, like the Labour Party members, and like Mr Woolerton, has not taken a good, close look at clause 5(1)(a)(ii). If those people had, they would have seen that my lefty friend was right and that it would not be possible to run a \u201CSave Manap\u014Duri\u201D or anti - Viet Nam War campaign in 2008 under the Electoral Finance Act 2007 because it will prevent that kind of argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I make is a very interesting point, which has been raised by Metiria Turei\u2014and I think she is too concerned and I do not think it is a problem\u2014relating to the amendment to clause 2, which states that the Act shall come into force on 1 April. I listened very carefully to what that member said, because obviously there are implications for the definition of \u201Cregulated period\u201D\u2014and I particularly refer to subparagraph (a)(i) of that term in clause 4 because there are a number of periods that are specified in that clause. It seems to me that if the Act comes into force on 1 April, there are a number of options. Either the regulated period is going to be the period that commences 3 months before polling day and ends with the close of polling day\u2014a proposition that would not please Metiria Turei one little bit\u2014or one would give a purposive interpretation to subparagraph (a)(i) and say that if the Act comes into force on 1 April, in order to make sense of the definition of \u201Cregulated period\u201D the regulated period shall be the longer of the following periods: either the period that commences on 1 April or the 3-month period. The other option, if one wanted to be clear beyond peradventure, would be to seek leave so that the House could debate the definition of \u201Cregulated period\u201D again. But I do not believe that any judge would have a problem with that particular definition and I think Metiria Turei makes a mountain out of a molehill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFinally, let me say I am delighted that Mr Hughes is so strongly in favour of some controls on anonymity, because I have just checked the amount of anonymous donations he received in the 2005 general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f75ba4bc3734817861e9b62bdeb52bd\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ea974121244c85a6f09f8cc1362177\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: $13,821.78.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u002223215066e6314826b07333a0253efb03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223215066e6314826b07333a0253efb03\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u002216a5c69dcc6b46d7966f1d2230533392\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216a5c69dcc6b46d7966f1d2230533392\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6c1f3c82a994e1eb2fd9a452b9f1990\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am prepared to take a point of order only if it is to do with the reason why the motion should not be put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b7a1ede8923451e81d0154c6d9c41e3\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I was calling just before you put the vote. We are talking specifically about the title and we have members here who have been seeking a call over the last week. I ask you to consider Standing Order 137(3) on whether you consider it reasonable for the closure motion to be put. This is an important bill. We know it is very contentious and members on this side of the Chamber wish to raise some very important points around the specifics of the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc79421c8fb4a76a18208a45d939d9e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member for the contribution that he has made. I have listened considerably to this debate. I suggest that the member look at Speakers\u2019 rulings 73/1-3, and Speaker\u2019s ruling 73/3, by the Hon Doug Kidd in 1998, in particular. I therefore put the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d8422a140502445abd9ed9ef897ea694\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000383\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 166 in the name of Christopher Finlayson to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ba4d267115e4b9889f85439952f3b4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222a78e5c8eb3a4a35b9ddb9ceffe29e9c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236894f042a634a7487e0b12da05d365a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002219d9a41894534b2094a314b245b8f40f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d9a41894534b2094a314b245b8f40f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee divide the bill into the Electoral Finance Bill, the Broadcasting Amendment Bill (No 3), and the Electoral Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 164.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d6ca2cba17604ec3a988fb820bddbac3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000385\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000386\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002286727cdfdafe401fab709101bf1c8083\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207fed300708f4cb39f03619356d504e0\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0cc6204fbd24b0a994dfeebf258f32d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0cc6204fbd24b0a994dfeebf258f32d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the third reading of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill; the passing through their remaining stages of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill and the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2), and any bills into which those bills may be divided; and the first readings of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable) Preference Bill, the Real Estate Agents Bill, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3), the Public Health Bill, the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill, the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2), the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill, the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill, the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2), the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2), the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), and the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill. This motion is moved so that the Government can complete its legislative programme for the year by the end of this week, except for the third reading of the Electoral Finance Bill and the adjournment motion incorporating the timetable for next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e4ed9187417a4abe93ba5d267e64c68a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field;.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002227218e873bfc46618a97b8bfc2e6ee53\u0022\u003EEducation (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207a91cf62a454ef69bd21cf7834e380d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022d25a54611079477aaf67d965840266b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d25a54611079477aaf67d965840266b7\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Associate Minister for Tertiary Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Tertiary Education: I move, That the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill gives legal effect to the Government\u2019s reform of the system for planning, funding, and monitoring tertiary education. The objectives of the reforms are to support the Government\u2019s focus on quality, relevance, and value for money in the tertiary education system in order to ensure that the system contributes to the country\u2019s social, economic, and environmental needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe bill aims to streamline the system for funding tertiary education by providing a set of key planning instruments for steering the tertiary education system. The set of instruments includes, first, a single tertiary education strategy, setting out the long-term strategy and current to medium term priorities for tertiary education, which replaces the tertiary education strategy and the statement of tertiary education priorities; second, investment guidance published by the Tertiary Education Commission, which replaces charters and profiles; and, third, a 3-year plan prepared by tertiary education organisations in consultation with their stakeholders, which is aligned with national and regional priorities and will form the basis of funding decisions made by the Tertiary Education Commission. The new process will lead to reduced compliance costs for tertiary education organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Tertiary Education Commission will play a key role in ensuring the success of the reforms. The commission will work with tertiary education organisations to develop plans and ensure that the qualifications that are funded are relevant to students and stakeholders. Investing in a plan will ensure that the tertiary education system delivers the skilled graduates we need to secure a prosperous economic future for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe tertiary education sector has acknowledged that change is needed. This came through in the consultation process and in submissions to the Education and Science Committee. It is clear that the system of demand-driven funding, although contributing to increases in participation in tertiary education, is not the most appropriate way of supporting tertiary education\u2019s contribution to national goals. Taking a strategic approach to the funding of tertiary education by funding quality over quantity will support the Government\u2019s objectives for a broad and inclusive tertiary education system, while at the same time ensuring that the long-term needs of stakeholders are met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe new investment system will also safeguard taxpayers\u2019 contribution to tertiary education. This is because instead of funding tertiary education organisations simply on the basis of enrolments, the Government will be making wiser and more considered decisions on how taxpayers\u2019 money is invested. The changes introduced by the bill will therefore lead to greater returns on the Government\u2019s investment in tertiary education and will increase public confidence in the tertiary education system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe investment system emphasises collaboration rather than competition through a differentiated but complementary network of provision. This means that instead of competing for enrolments, organisations will be collaborating and building on each other\u2019s strengths as they work towards meeting national goals. They will also work in concert with industry to ensure that the needs to stakeholders are met. It is expected that taking a collaborative approach will contribute to greater outcomes from the Government\u2019s investment in tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThrough better, more strategic, longer term, and collaborative planning involving organisations, stakeholders, and the Tertiary Education Commission this bill will be a boon to everyone involved in the tertiary education sector. The flow-on benefits of this new planning, funding, and monitoring regime will be widely felt. It will bring certainty to everyone with a stake in our tertiary education system\u2014certainty to students about their course of study, certainty to organisations about security of funding, certainty for the public about the coherence and quality of our tertiary system, and certainty for Government in its funding and monitoring roles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAs we near the final stages of the passage of this bill, I take this opportunity to again express my own and the Minister for Tertiary Education\u2019s appreciation to the members of the Education and Science Committee for their role in this process. I look forward to the bill passing into law to enable the reforms to be introduced on 1 January 2008. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00221f240c0a12d7422f938027ccb7779185\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f240c0a12d7422f938027ccb7779185\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the third reading of the very important Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. The bill is very important, because there is no doubt that tertiary education is pivotal to the future of New Zealand. It is pivotal to driving economic growth and to improving our productivity, which is something that has been absolutely stalled under this Labour Government over the last 8 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that this Government has said that this bill is about achieving high trust, low compliance, relevance, quality, and value for money. Nobody would disagree with those sentiments, but we have seen, even before this bill has been implemented, the very opposite. We have seen a model that has demonstrated an ever-growing, creeping bureaucracy and jackboot-like central control. That is exactly what has been going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ETwenty-three submissions were received on this bill, and the major issues arising were those of academic freedom, institutional autonomy, and the removal of charters and profiles\u2014something the Hon Steve Maharey said in 2002 would be the ultimate achievement of tertiary reforms. How wrong that has proven to be, because he is doing away with them and instead bringing in these so-called investment plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other important issues were procedural fairness\u2014something that is clearly somewhat foreign to this Labour Government\u2014the treatment of sensitive information, and adult community education issues. I want to give just two examples of when this Labour Government has shown low trust and poor management and has rewarded failure and punished success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere could be many, many more examples than the two I am going to give, but I want to start firstly with the headline from the Independent Financial Review, \u201CFoul-up costs unis millions\u201D. The article states: \u201CTertiary institutes face paying millions in top-up fees next year because of an ill-timed government policy which caps funds and threatens penalties on those that grow.\u201D So much for high trust! The article continues: \u201CAuckland University\u2019s vice-chancellor Stuart McCutcheon says it will have a short-fall of millions because of funding cuts, an increase in the student achievement component and a cap on fees.\u201D It goes on to state \u201Cthe timing of TEC\u2019s investment plan meant it came too late to limit student numbers for next year.\u201D So much for good management! In fact, this is abysmally poor management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHere in Wellington at Victoria University, Chief Financial Officer Wayne Morgan said: \u201CThere have been threats of financial penalties from TEC if student numbers exceed the new quota.\u201D There we see bullying and poor management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe second example is that of the Southern Institute of Technology, which is an institute that has done remarkably well in showing lateral thinking, innovation, quality, relevance, and value for money. It is the only tertiary institution in this country that, by stint of innovation and hard work, provides a policy of having no student fees. But that is at risk. Why? Because the Tertiary Education Commission plans to take $8 million from this good-performing institution and with this money prop up institutions that are failing. That might help pay for the $2,000 a day that is going to the Crown controller at the Western Institute of Technology, or the $2,600 a day going to one of the accountants who is helping there. So there is another example of where this Labour Government is punishing success and rewarding those who do not do well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is almost unbelievable the way this central-control model is behaving. First of all, the Government has started on the polytechs; next, will it go to the universities? Who knows! Will the new Vice-Chancellor of Massey University, Steve Maharey, be told that the Government does not believe in regionalism and that it will remove Massey University from the North Shore of Auckland, so the university will have to retreat to Palmerston North? Is that the sort of headache the Government is going to put on Steve Maharey? Let us wait and see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe know that the Government just does not understand the concept that quality and value for money should underlie an efficient, effective system\u2014no matter who the provider is. Even though I was prepared to help this Government and provide it with a well-thought-out Supplementary Order Paper, it ignored those constructive suggestions. That makes me wonder why the new Minister for Tertiary Education, the Hon Peter Hodgson, failed to be present at the second reading stage of this bill, a bill that he claimed in this House was critical for tertiary education. He just did not turn up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223097637a6fec4f7f824b290c3c2145b3\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: The Assistant Minister was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb484ed8af984bc08196145a38a5898d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: The only person who turned up was the Hon Maryan Street, and I must admit she made a valuable contribution. But no one else from the Labour-led Government made any contribution whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa00b29d272a48528e23318362390c7a\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me! I was on the select committee the entire time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb4859beea64b9ea6819ae521c2fc70\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe, apart from a minor contribution from Marian Hobbs, Labour just wanted to get on with it and ram through this bill. The succession planning to carry this bill through has been abysmal and appalling. Firstly, we had the resignation of the Chair of the Tertiary Education Commission, Russell Marshall; secondly, the Chief Executive Officer of the Tertiary Education Commission, Janice Shiner, is off to the UK next year; and, thirdly, there is the reshuffling of the deckchairs by Helen Clark. Steve Maharey\u2019s huge mistakes had to be fixed up, so she wheeled in Dr Michael Cullen, and now we have the Hon Pete Hodgson, the man who presided over the $5 billion increases in funding for the health system, even though we saw no increase in surgery whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn this third reading debate, it is important to emphasise again just how arrogant and out of touch this Labour Government has become. It was the New Zealand vice-chancellors who said that in no other Western democracy has the State sought this degree of control over a university\u2019s teaching and research. The vice-chancellors would not have made those statements without a great deal of thought. It was Dr Cullen who belittled their submission and said: \u201CNo. Universities have, for at least 40 years in my personal experience, been complaining that academic freedom is under threat and that they are losing autonomy.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESo it has been with considerable relief that, finally, the Labour Government was shamed\u2014absolutely shamed\u2014into changing this bill so that academic freedom and autonomy would remain. It gives us a great degree of satisfaction, because, undoubtedly, this shows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1efe3c325484bc6a256620a479bb0cb\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: It came at the eleventh hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149a9e26c6e942e0be2507e2a951b030\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It did come at the eleventh hour. It was a victory for the select committee process. It was a victory for the submitters. It was a victory for the National Party. And it was an absolute indictment on this tawdry Labour Government, which has become so out of touch, tired, and worn out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe tertiary education system needs stabilising and simplifying, but Labour has provided the very opposite. As Professor McCutcheon said, we have moved quickly from an open system to a closed system. There is no doubt that, up until now, the new Minister for Tertiary Education, Pete Hodgson, has been too afraid to show himself. The task of the next National Government will be to sort out the mess the Labour Government has left behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002286674d05c4c940a79f118fc3f47f2eea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286674d05c4c940a79f118fc3f47f2eea\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes when I hear the member Paul Hutchison\u2014who has just resumed his seat\u2014speak on tertiary education, I have the feeling that he is interested only in personalities, whether it be the chair of the Tertiary Education Commission or the wonderful Janice Shiner, who has spent 4 very productive years in New Zealand. He does not talk about policy, nor does he talk about the system, which this bill will ensure is improved and lasts regardless of the personalities of Ministers, heads of departments, or heads of commissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe other fallacy that that man always brings up is the fallacy around academic freedom. Academic freedom was never challenged in this legislation, for the reason that this bill is an amendment bill. It amends the Education Act 1989 and academic freedom is spelt out in a section of the Education Act. People got so nervous about this issue that we restated the definition of academic freedom in this amendment bill. It is rather tautologous; it is in the amendment bill and it is in the Act that this bill amends. It is in there twice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EI rise to support the third reading of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. Earlier speeches on the bill have outlined many of the improvements to the tertiary education sector that will be enacted through the legislation. In particular, we have heard that the bill initiates a set of more streamlined steering instruments than previously existed, to assist the Tertiary Education Commission to invest specifically in the Government\u2019s and the country\u2019s priorities, and to respond to key stakeholder interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EDo we need more engineers? Are we short of scientists? Do we need to invest there or do we need to keep on producing lawyers for the National Party? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0710c8f78ec4d8996a4cb325f1036f8\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Not just for the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb9a404cb83d4e9fbc4e932b9d123213\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I have just realised that, I say to my colleague. I am very, very sorry. I just skipped blissfully over that. There are certain lawyers who are absolutely wonderful; there are others whom we have an abundance of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThis approach will assist tertiary education organisations to realise Government expectations for the funding they receive, while also allowing greater certainty for those organisations, due to the Government\u2019s commitment to finding its priorities over a longer term. I will say that again. For too long, tertiary organisations have had a 1-year funding window. This bill gives 3 years. In short, the funding for, and the outcomes sought from, tertiary education will be more firmly geared towards achieving strategic benefit for all New Zealanders. As the Minister for Tertiary Education has expressed in his speech, this new approach towards investing in tertiary education provision will enable a high-performing tertiary education sector, one that is vital for our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EIn the joined-up tertiary education system we have in this country, a high-performing sector is one that meets the needs of all New Zealanders regardless of the type of education they engage in. I would suggest that the joined-up nature of the tertiary education sector is one of the sector\u2019s major strengths. Rather than elevating particular levels or forms of study above others, we have a system that encompasses industry training, post-graduate university study, adult and community education\u2014which is often the way people re-enter training\u2014and other areas of study. All these areas of provision provide benefits for this country and its people, and they will be enhanced by the bill providing for more considered planning across the tertiary sector. I give members an example. I often hear people complain about how our workforce is not able to be as productive as one would like it to be. One of the reasons for that is the high level of inability in reading and in mathematics\u2014literacy and numeracy. This factor is as much a part of this tertiary planning as the need for scientists or accountants is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill will facilitate the distinctive contribution of all areas of tertiary education provisions, partly by requiring that tertiary education organisations work closely with stakeholders to ascertain their needs, and to respond to those needs through the plans proposed to, and approved by, the commission. The collaborative aspect\u2014not a competitive one, for a change\u2014put in place by this change will lead to a step change in the responsiveness of organisations, to those with the most interest in the kinds of teaching and research available. It is exciting to know that the link between investment plans, Government long-term strategy, and medium-term tertiary priorities will mean that each part of the tertiary sector can be confident of the role it has to play in achieving those priorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe move towards an outcome-focused system will also enhance the confidence of sub-sectors such as the polytechs, which play an extraordinary part and role here. They are not something to be run down and neglected, as is portrayed. They are vital. They found the demand-driven system problematic, with the competitiveness and uncertainty that came with it, which had polytechs trying to poach from other polytechs up and down the country. Instead, they are, for example, able to serve the needs of the energy industry in New Plymouth, and do not have to make up strange courses in order to get the numbers. That was a system that was put in place by the National Party. It was \u201Cbums on seats\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f929819f62e04493aa2ae03925ab05f1\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: It was Maharey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f90bc381a8f46c59c2b1f8504e3db74\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry. It was absolutely \u201Cbums on seats\u201D, and it was particularly led by Lockwood Smith. I remember it very clearly, as a member of the education movement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EA statement of the Government\u2019s long-term strategy and medium-term priorities will be essential in helping the sector plan for the future. It provides a transparency and a clarity that will let tertiary organisations see what the system as a whole needs to provide, and what role they play in the fulfilment of that whole. I am also confident that the changes proposed by the bill around quality assurance of adult and community education will solidify a far better approach to approving the course offered by these providers. I would find it very strange if the Opposition disagreed with that, given the noise it created on these issues some years ago. These changes recognise that many of these providers do not have the critical mass of established tertiary education institutions to deal with undue levels of scrutiny and compliance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThis bill is a comprehensive bill that does not improve planning just for universities, or w\u0101nanga, or industry training; it is a bill that works to improve planning across the whole tertiary education sector. It means that individual tertiary organisations can plan better, but it also means that we can plan better across the whole tertiary education sector. It is not about just making sure that Victoria University or the Southern Institute of Technology continues to meet society\u2019s needs; it is about the whole sector. It is not about competition; it is about collaboration. In that way, it is efficient; it saves us money and resources that otherwise could be spent in a most frivolous way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to emphasise that this bill will act as a significant enabler of stakeholder-driven change, which in itself will lead to better investment of Government funding. This approach is not top-down. [Interruption] This approach is very much\u2014as that member would know if he knew anything about the adult and community education sector\u2014from the bottom up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EFurthermore, the explicit connection between investment and meeting Government priorities through plans reinforces the particular relevance of each sub-sector of the tertiary education system, so that all students\u2014wherever they are\u2014can be confident that they are entering study that is worthwhile for themselves and for New Zealand, and that they will have jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u00221d6c08f0a9fe4945b746e393b32fd5f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d6c08f0a9fe4945b746e393b32fd5f6\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to express the opposition of the National Party to the passage of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. I have been sitting here thinking about what sort of contextual framework this bill needs to be put in. It has not been lost on me that just half an hour ago I was speaking against the Electoral Finance Bill and talking about the defence of democracy in New Zealand. Now, just half an hour or so later, speaking on this bill, something is right at the forefront of my mind and it is this. Just as a socialist Government is seeking to control the democratic processes of this country and is using its numbers in this House to drive through legislation, so we have this same Government that clearly understands one thing. One of the features of all socialist society is that control of the vitally important educational establishment is paramount. This bit of legislation seeks to extend that control\u2014Government control\u2014over the lives of New Zealanders and our institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EIt should not be lost on New Zealanders listening to the debate this afternoon and watching it on television that when the Associate Minister got up and spoke, the words that rolled off her tongue were \u201Cplan\u201D and \u201Cmonitor\u201D. It took me back to the Committee stage when the Associate Minister\u2014new as she was to her role then\u2014was in the chair, and every second word was \u201Cplan\u201D, \u201Cplan\u201D. Then the word \u201Ccommissariat\u201D was thrown into the conversation. What great socialist terms they are: \u201Ccommissariat\u201D, and \u201Ccontrol\u201D. When those members have their private meetings and caucuses and they are talking about this sort of stuff, I wonder whether they call each other comrade and refer to themselves as the commissariat of New Zealand\u2014not the Labour Party but the commissariat of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWe need to reflect very, very carefully about what some of the most intelligent, well-educated people in New Zealand\u2014the vice-chancellors of the universities\u2014had to say to the Education and Science Committee about this proposed legislation. The Minister in her speech made a lot of the role of the Tertiary Education Commission. It seems to me that where the Government wants control, plan, control, and plan, we should really be trying to create the environment in which the tertiary education sector\u2014in particular, the universities\u2014can actually achieve the best for New Zealand. When I look at this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad44cda14a84777bca0147abf1ca9ff\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf16e5f6fc94546b1040159bdeadb25\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Associate Minister can sigh, but National knows that in 12 months\u2019 time we are going to be cleaning this mess up. When one thinks about the message that the vice-chancellors gave us about academic freedom and about the autonomy of their institutions, one needs to ask oneself a couple of questions. Whatever happened to the days when tertiary education in this country was run by half a dozen men and women meeting occasionally around the table in Wellington? Now we have multimillion dollar bureaucracies. How does this legislation, this massive expansion of bureaucracy and the environment of control, plans, commissars, and commissariats, produce the world-class universities that New Zealand will need if it is to survive as a prosperous, modern, market economy in the world? How will this bureaucracy and these plans produce that? It will not. The reason it will not is that the Government is so obsessed with control that it does not understand how one creates environments to get the best out of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is how this massive expansion of bureaucracy and control will produce the higher quality research-led teaching that our students need if they are going to be competitive in the world. It seems to me that they should be the two significant objectives of any legislation on tertiary education in this country. Not about control\u2014[Interruption] Can I just say to those members opposite that if the Leader of the House wanted to come in and hear what I had to say, he would have been here to hear it. He actually does not need that member to give him a garbled version, so I suggest that member just reflect and think about some of the things I am saying. The great challenge in tertiary education in New Zealand is not how it is controlled\u2014not which Government can create the biggest bureaucracy, expand the Tertiary Education Commission the most, and cut back on the ability of universities and polytechs to make good decisions\u2014it is the interface between the economic development of this country, the quality of its social fabric, research and development, and learning. I do not see anything in this legislation that pulls all those things together and in any way lets us see ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWhat I see in this legislation is an attempt by a Minister to clean up a mess foisted on this country by a previous Minister. It has to be of concern to New Zealanders that twice in 8 years this House is debating and passing this sort of legislation. This Government did not get it right the first time. If New Zealanders reflect back to the environment of 2000-01 when the Government thought it knew everything, and off it went and rushed into it, they will see we now have to clean it up. The tragedy is that this is not a clean-up; this is an extension of Government control where Government control is not needed, because nothing in this legislation strengthens the autonomy of our universities. Nothing in this legislation protects and extends academic freedom. It is about plan and control. It does not address the issues of the interface between research-led teaching and the economic development of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ELike so much socialist legislation that has been passed in this country, this bill, when it is passed, will have an unintended consequence. Universities, beginning with Auckland, are saying that as a result of this legislation open entry will come to an end. Now, I am one of those people who happens to believe that New Zealand needs an outstanding, restricted entry, world-class university that attracts the best intellectuals in the world to this country. I do not think it was the Government\u2019s intention to create an environment in which entry to university will be closed off. It is interesting, is it not, that those Government members opposite may be responsible for creating an environment in which New Zealanders lose free entry to university. That stigma will stay with the Government for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00225037c357a70144d3a3cf017ebf6fc2ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225037c357a70144d3a3cf017ebf6fc2ef\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I too am glad to speak in this third reading debate on the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. It was very interesting to hear some of the speeches on this subject from members opposite, because many of them fell into the same kind of pattern\u2014the same kind of jargon\u2014and they basically went along the lines of \u201CBlah, blah, stakeholder engagement. Blah, blah, transparency.\u201D Marian Hobbs was a fine one. She talked about stakeholder-driven change and she said that this was not top down but bottom up. I sat there and thought that if anybody criticises the education sector for its own jargon and meaningless bumf, he or she should have listened to that speech, because it had all the categories and all the words but it did not actually mean anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things we find with the whole tertiary reform debate is that there is a lot of high-level discussion, but if we distil it down, it does not make a lot of common sense. That was certainly something that Paul Hutchison and I found as we were part of a presentation about what the changes might be. After about an hour and a half of worthy and earnest questions on our part we were struggling to understand exactly what the impact would be for certain tertiary organisations. Finally my colleague Paul Hutchison said: \u201CLook, just give us one example. What difference will this bill make to Auckland University?\u201D. After some \u201Cums\u201D and \u201Cahs\u201D the officials with whom we were discussing this said: \u201COh, actually it is not going to make terribly much difference to Auckland University.\u201D So, after all this, there is no difference. How can that be when we saw on television last night that Auckland University is now moving away from open entry with some of its courses? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d22c9c77f914bba812bfcc753b40811\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: They have been planning this for about 5 years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdbdb4fab1d4265ac81152fd54b219b\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Cullen is exercised by my bringing this up. The Labour Party, which purports to be the party of the workers, is now being accused of shutting out students from disadvantaged backgrounds and creating an elitist institution. This is one of the examples that we will see more and more of whereby some institutions say they will limit the number of people coming into their courses because they will not offer spaces for students for whom they receive no funding. These institutions will, understandably, offer courses if they are funded for them, but, if they are not, why would they bother? Why would they offer spaces for the benefit of the community if they are not funded to offer them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378908f1601d4cc48993924b901e01da\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s National\u2019s policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313544fcb56543a0aaed267ca8810693\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: As usual, Sue Moroney is chipping in with her inane little utterances. She does not have a blind clue what difference this will make to tertiary reform, but she will focus her mind when the likes of her local university says: \u201CWe\u2019re cutting this course, that course, and we\u2019re not going to offer spaces for courses that young people want.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is the same for certain sectors. We spend a lot of time talking about other aspects of education. At the moment the early childhood sector is crying out for trained early childhood teachers. This is another area where the Tertiary Education Commission will ensure that there are fewer spaces than there have been in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the other points made by the Hon Marian Hobbs was that this legislation will move tertiary providers away from competition. Competition is not actually a bad thing. If members opposite think that students do not understand what competition is, then they do not understand the students they are hoping to improve the tertiary sector for. Students know exactly which courses are quality courses. Students will often travel to work or study with someone with a particular area of expertise, or with someone who has a PhD or has carried out research in a certain area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a20a1eaf9d44529613a440779362ef\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: And then be disappointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb4ed218c944048bbbd795255e29ed4\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Moroney says that students will be very disappointed if they travel to work with specific people. What kind of comment is that to make? How would it be for our hard-working professors, researchers, and people who are internationally renowned to know that some little minion on that side of the House thinks that their skills, training, and research amount to nothing and that they are interchangeable, like cans of baked beans, because they are all the same? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House we believe that the tertiary sector is about quality. It is about having skills in a certain area, and it is about an understanding of that quality and competition. People will travel to study in certain areas, and that is one way of ensuring that we have an excellent offering in our polytechs and tertiary providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Hon Marian Hobbs also said that we are moving away from a \u201Cbums on seats\u201D mentality. I find that interesting. Which Government was it that put all the bums on the seats for the radio sing-along courses, or the bums on the seats for the pendulum swinging for beginners classes? Pendulum swinging for beginners may have been big in Sue Moroney\u2019s area, but I would like to hear her take a call and explain how that particular course contributed to the Government\u2019s overall goal of economic transformation, because on this side of the House we cannot see how that kind of course contributed to that goal. Neither can we see how twilight golf or some of those other shonky courses, which apparently were moving away from a \u201Cbums on seats\u201D mentality to some other method of applying funds, contributed to that goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe big buzz word is, of course, \u201Ctransparency\u201D. As Dr Cullen knows, our universities in particular have a long history of transparency and quality and they do not need this particular bill to be able to offer that. Certainly when it comes to introducing a streamlined approach and less bureaucracy, I think that those who are involved in the sector will be desperately disappointed. One of the things that this bill introduces is more bureaucracy. There is a requirement to do more planning, to put together more documents, and to undertake more stakeholder engagement, whatever that means. From listening to members opposite, stakeholder engagement seems to involve hanging out with anybody, talking about anything\u2014preferably if there is food there. But in terms of the enhancement of the process, we cannot see how that will have an impact on tertiary provision in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ENational is looking at how we get better results out of the investment we make as a country. We still have to allow students to make the decisions they need to make to invest in themselves and to do courses that reflect their interests. We are concerned about some of the impacts of this bill and about what will change within some regional areas. We have already seen some discussions come to the surface in Southland\u2014certainly in Otago\u2014and last night in Auckland. We will see more of those stories. There will be more students who are not able to do the courses they want to as the rubber hits the road with this kind of reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EHere we are 8 years down the track and the reforms are being put in place now. Eight years down the track! The Government has spent over $400 million to get this far and it has very little to show for it apart from a big stack of glossy brochures about so high, a big bill as a result of stakeholder engagement, and a number of offices that have been opened and closed as the Tertiary Education Commission decides what is fit for purpose and what kind of organisation it will be. We have certainly seen a large number of bureaucrats added to the public purse. We have gone from an organisation that had no staff to one that has well over 300, and certainly most of us are trying to work out exactly what value they add to this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn terms of reforms, the jury is out about whether it will make a positive difference. National thinks it will make a negative difference, as a lot of this rhetoric does not transfer into change that is good for students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022a314cac16b3a49d780efacf96e5ad74f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a314cac16b3a49d780efacf96e5ad74f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party supports this bill. We are very strongly in favour of good tertiary education. I think it is useful to point out, though, that we are very concerned about what is being done up at Auckland University, which seems to be spreading a little bit throughout the country\u2014that is, restricting the entry of students to tertiary institutions. That is a dramatic change for New Zealand, where we have had open entry for so many years, making us a more egalitarian society. In more recent years open entry has enabled people in all age ranges to go to university, perhaps more so than in the past. People who missed going to university the first time around, for whatever reason\u2014not having enough money, not being born of the right parents, not getting the initial encouragement they perhaps should have, or going into other jobs\u2014have been able to go on to university. We are a bit concerned\u2014very concerned, in fact\u2014and we support the criticisms of various members of the community, including university staff, who said that this restriction of entry should not be allowed to happen. So with those few words, the Green Party supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00227d17049951644f34b32054cbdca55017\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d17049951644f34b32054cbdca55017\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. It is timely indeed to be thinking of tertiary reforms, the day after the University of Auckland confirmed its decision to eliminate open entry into the university from 2009. From the communication we have had with tangata whenua associated with the university, consultation has been at a bare minimum, if at all. We learnt from the University Students Association that the proposal was rammed through in 3 short weeks without due regard either for the consultative process or for consideration of the possible impacts such a decision might have. So the decision of that university to restrict entry to core disciplines leads us to ask how, in this bill, the Government, through the Tertiary Education Commission, actively recognises its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi to protect M\u0101ori language, ways of being, and traditional and contemporary knowledge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhat mechanisms are in place in this bill to give honour to a central premise of the Treaty of Waitangi that M\u0101ori could continue to live as M\u0101ori? In Ka Hikitia, the draft M\u0101ori education strategy, Wally Penetito gives life to this aspiration, eloquently stating: \u201CIf there is an emerging educational vision among M\u0101ori, it is the desire for an education that enhances what it means to be M\u0101ori: so simple and yet so profound.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party brings to the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill a knowledge of the simple and profound, and an understanding of the aspirations and concepts that establish a very clear foundation for both ensuring M\u0101ori student engagement and enabling M\u0101ori student success. The ultimate question, however, is whether there is sufficient provision in this bill to ensure that both the Crown and the institutions uphold the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi through the planning, the funding, and the monitoring functions of the tertiary education system. Our analysis of the bill found it seriously lacking on two fronts. One related to the consultation and the other to the guidance for the Tertiary Education Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhat we learnt from the select committee process was absolutely fundamental to our concerns around Treaty justice in this bill. The Association of University Staff of New Zealand advised us that the Government had received over 400 submissions relating to the omission of the Treaty from the tertiary education strategy and the statement of tertiary education priorities. We learnt from reading over 23 submissions received on this bill that numerous concerns were raised around consultation. Specifically, there is no requirement for the Minister, the Tertiary Education Commission, or the tertiary education organisations to consult with M\u0101ori in the development and monitoring of a proposed new institutional plan document. One has to wonder, then, whether there should be any surprise about the fact that Auckland University chose the lighter end of the consultation continuum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAs a party always willing to put forward new ideas and solutions, we in the M\u0101ori Party came to the Committee stage of the bill with two useful recommendations. We as M\u0101ori Party MPs are not limited by the constraints of abiding by the party line or being subdued into silence when we identify an issue of Treaty injustice. We are proud to be a strong and independent M\u0101ori voice and to be able to raise our concerns without fear or favour. We bring the House back to section 181 of the Education Act 1989, in which institutional councils are required to acknowledge the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in the performance of their functions and exercise of their powers. Councils are therefore required to acknowledge the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHow is that done? Well, it is not as difficult as some of our parliamentary colleagues think it is. The system needs to support M\u0101ori aspirations and achievements, including the revitalisation of te reo M\u0101ori, ng\u0101 tikanga, and M\u0101ori knowledge. The education system needs to work in partnership with wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and M\u0101ori communities. The education system needs to provide opportunities for educational success, which will enable M\u0101ori to live as M\u0101ori, to have the authority over M\u0101ori knowledge, and to validate M\u0101ori ways of being and seeing the world\u2014indeed, to enhance what it means to be M\u0101ori. So simple, yet so profound. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EYet what does this amended bill say? It states that the mandate for the Minister of Education to address the development aspirations of M\u0101ori is tied neither to the Treaty relationship nor to a requirement to consult. It is for this reason that at the Committee stage of this bill my colleague Te Ururoa Flavell introduced two amendments to sort this out once and for all. The first amendment specified consultation with local hap\u016B, iwi, M\u0101ori staff, and students by tertiary institutions in the preparation of proposed plans. Under the bill\u2019s current provisions an organisation can choose not to consult with M\u0101ori in the preparation of a proposed plan. We in the M\u0101ori Party therefore proposed an amendment to specify that in the preparation of a proposed plan, tertiary education organisations would be required to consult with M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe other amendment sought to insert the phrase \u201Cacknowledge the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D into section 159G of the Education Act, which determines the principles guiding how the Tertiary Education Commission operates. The Education Act 1989 requires in section 181(b) that a council of a tertiary education institution acknowledges the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in the performance of its function and in the exercise of its powers. However, there is no corresponding requirement on the Tertiary Education Commission to also acknowledge the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in the performance of its functions. Our amendment required the commission to do so. It is all very straightforward\u2014indeed, so simple, yet so profound. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EA significant number of submissions to the select committee told us that for a Treaty relationship to be meaningful it needs to be at all levels of the tertiary education system. Our two amendments were exactly that, proposing ways of making the Treaty and the Treaty relationship visible. Instead, Labour, along with National, New Zealand First, United Future, and the Independents, chose to act in ways that clearly reflect the lack of value they place in Te Tiriti o Waitangi as the foundation document for Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESeventy-five years ago the very first successful R\u0101tana candidate, Eruera Tirik\u0101tene, tabled a petition here in Parliament known simply as the R\u0101tana petition. It was a very weighty petition, literally so; it contained some 45,000 signatures and weighed 16 pounds, which is 7.25 kilograms. The petition requested that the Treaty of Waitangi be entered into the statute book in an effort to \u201Cpreserve the ties of brotherhood between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 for all time\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ETwenty years ago, in 1987, the Court of Appeal described the Treaty as \u201Cpart of the fabric of New Zealand society\u201D, and as \u201Cthe country\u2019s founding constitutional instrument\u201D. This is our history: M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101, tangata whenua and tangata Te Tiriti, peoples united in the promise of partnership. At its very heart the Treaty is an exchange of promises between sovereign peoples, giving rise to obligations for each party. As with any partnership, the Treaty partnership is forever evolving. This bill, the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill, provided us with an excellent opportunity to honour those aspirations of our ancestors throughout our history. It offered up a chance to make right the expectations of Tahup\u014Dtiki W\u012Bremu R\u0101tana, Eruera Tirak\u0101tene, Matiu Rata, the New Zealand M\u0101ori Council, the Court of Appeal, and the more than 500 rangatira who signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi back in 1840. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt provided a means by which M\u0101ori could continue to exercise rangatiratanga over ng\u0101 taonga, which, in the context of education, may include te reo M\u0101ori, tikanga M\u0101ori, and M\u0101ori knowledge. It gave us all a moment in time in which legislation could be consistent with the statutory requirement of institutions to acknowledge the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, by which the Treaty could truly flourish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFor some unknown reason, the members of this House, other than those in the Green and M\u0101ori Parties, chose not to have the courage to let the Treaty talk. They chose not to support our amendments and, in doing so, chose to deny, shut down, and limit any practical ways of actually letting the Treaty guide this nation forward in a meaningful direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe in the M\u0101ori Party are profoundly disappointed that such a golden opportunity for Treaty justice was overlooked, and that the bill will proceed without allowing our practical, pragmatic proposals to be considered of value. Our vote against this bill is therefore a vote that registers our consistent opposition to any bill that fails to acknowledge and recognise the impact of the Treaty in its deliberations. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022795ae4b8dab7475e8a62f7aba641ab0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022795ae4b8dab7475e8a62f7aba641ab0f\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of United Future to speak in support of the third reading of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. When this bill was reported back, the first thing I did was to go to the commentary provided by the Education and Science Committee to read the minority view of the National Party, because I remembered very clearly, particularly in the last Parliament, that that party, especially during question time, railed against the Minister for Tertiary Education. That party highlighted courses like the twilight golf course and sing-along courses, and it was particularly scathing about, and mocking of, Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa and some of the other tertiary providers that were really making a genuine effort and doing some very creative things to attract back into tertiary education adults who had given up on their education and their futures. But the National Party did raise the issue of quality, and it became blatantly apparent\u2014whether the courses that National chose to highlight were flawed has never been determined\u2014that we were lacking quality assurance in the tertiary sector, and that the \u201Cbums on seats\u201D policy had created some perverse outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis bill is an attempt to rectify that situation. So I was really keen to see why the National Party, having done all that, would be so concerned about the intentions of this bill and the provisions within it that that would cause it to oppose something that those in the sector\u2014from the reading that I have done in educational publications\u2014have been warmly supportive of. I have come to the conclusion that the National Party\u2019s minority view reflects some of the concerns that submitters had but that it does not reflect the work that the committee then did to rectify those concerns. They were not big concerns; they were small concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe first concern was around the issue of commercially sensitive information. Under this bill, of course, the Tertiary Education Commission and education providers will work more collaboratively together, and that is a great thing. They are also required to have long-term, 3-year plans, which I know the sector is thrilled about. It was sick of existing year by year, and it likes the opportunity now to develop 3-year plans. Those plans are allowed to be amended and adjusted as the situation demands. The bill also requires the commission to work in a mutually collaborative way with education providers right from the word go, as they develop their courses and the potential of their facilities. But there was some concern that during that process, commercially sensitive information would be required to be disclosed. The committee was right to look into that, but it discovered, however, that currently tertiary education institutions and the commission are obliged under the Official Information Act of 1982 to respond to any queries. So the need to disclose information is already built into the system and is an issue that providers have been addressing for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe second concern was around procedural fairness. There was concern that there was a lack of procedural safeguards to protect providers from a misuse of power by the commission in regard to its new statutory powers. There was also concern that there was no right of appeal for providers, should they not agree with a ruling of the commission. I suspect we need to keep an eye on that matter. But it was made clear that providers are allowed to take a complaint to the Ombudsman or to seek a judicial review if the process that is being undertaken is unsatisfactory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe third concern\u2014and I think that this was the most important concern raised by submitters\u2014was that this legislation would restrict academic freedoms and institutional autonomy. I think there was a submission from some fairly significant academics, who talked about the fact that institutions, particularly universities, have always been allowed to have an autonomous status in developing the content of courses and pursuing academic freedoms. There were some real concerns about that. However, the committee then recommended an amendment to clause 3, to make it explicit that the new functions conferred on the responsible Minister and the commission are to be exercised in accordance with the principal Act. And the principal Act makes provision for the preservation of academic freedom and institutional autonomy. Problem solved. So therein lies the problem. Those were the main concerns raised; those are the only things outlined in the National Party minority view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI was reminiscing about the fact that some years ago I had read an interesting article\u2014I am pretty sure it was about Singapore; I stand to be corrected if I have the wrong country\u2014about a country that had taken some really strong steps to align both secondary and tertiary education more closely to economic development and the goals of economic development within that country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87a8b9c882d4c058461de46f02ff566\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: It was Singapore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e949d0aa3964d7ca358fa4d80eb4d3a\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mark has assured me that I have the right country. And there were some fantastic outcomes from that. The alignment of those two sectors meant that young people with a tertiary education were pretty much assured that they would come out into real jobs that would really advance the direction that Singapore was focused on. That is what I believe this bill is trying to do here; it is trying to make sure that any lack of quality that may have been present under the \u201Cbums on seats\u201D policy is addressed, and that the commission starts to be much more consultative and much more collaborative with those who work in the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI have had a lot of contact with private providers of tertiary education, and one of their great frustrations has been that they were constantly second-guessing the commission, and hoping that when they put in their charters for reapproval and applied for funding for the next year, somehow that would match up with standards that they were never very clear about. This bill\u2014and this is why we welcome it\u2014does away with all that uncertainty and makes provision for everybody involved in the tertiary education sector to talk together, to have long-term plans that are collaborative, and to be able to adjust those plans whenever that is needed and the circumstances demand it. For that reason, United Future is very happy to support the third reading of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002244a8d508fced4cda9f55ed584937f438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244a8d508fced4cda9f55ed584937f438\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking on the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill I would like to address just a couple of comments the previous speaker made\u2014that is, that, effectively, private training establishments are not protected by the Official Information Act, and that they are exposed by the request for information. It is worth my noting, at the commencement of my speech on this third reading, that the concern is with how that is perceived on the outside, as far as the declaring of sensitive information about whether research relationships will be entered into. We know that confidentiality is a very sensitive matter where there is alignment between universities and research institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will address the issues that the bill presents from the point of view that at this time, while we listen to the rhetoric of this Government, which assures us that everything will sail off swimmingly into the sunset and that we will not have any more problems with tertiary education, I can inform Government members that they are dreaming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe have a situation whereby one of our polytechs is already unsure of its future. The Open Polytechnic has a lot to contribute, in my view, and it has a lot to contribute from the point of view of the Industry Training Federation. Yet The Open Polytechnic will have to again re-establish its quality and relevance. Most of my qualifications were done around that organisation, and, from my point of view as a member, I found its quality and relevance to be outstanding. I would be horrified if the implementation of this bill was in fact the death knell of that institution\u2014The Open Polytechnic\u2014which has some 32,000 people enlisted and undertaking education of a high quality, of whom two-thirds are in employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is a bit rich when this Labour Government talks about itself as though it is as white as the driven snow, because we can see that it was presiding over the tertiary education sector while we witnessed the most outrageous rorts ever brought upon the sector. Come the eleventh hour of this Government, in its state of paranoia, it brings in this centralised-management, overly prescriptive model of micro-management. But when we look at it from the point of view of other areas\u2014say, the industry training area\u2014we find that the Government turns a blind eye. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe Government is still loading up the Modern Apprenticeships programme with no sense of discipline and no sense of management. We are finding that with this so-called flagship policy of the Labour Government now in total disarray, it is an absolute shambles. Yet the Government is still talking about increasing the funding to 14,000 places by December 2008. We see situations where Modern Apprenticeships coordinators are not being held to account. They are costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars with just one completion, or millions of dollars with a handful of completions. So I would lay the claim back at the feet of the Government. When will it rein in this outrageous behaviour around the Modern Apprenticeships programme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EOn a basis of consistency, it should be holding those people to account. In fact, a number of Ministers for Tertiary Education have said that in the near future they would change and strengthen the policy, and hold those Modern Apprenticeships coordinators to account. But we do not see any result of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ECan this Government be trusted? I do not think so. We can look back on another incident, which I will take the opportunity to have recorded in Hansard during this third reading of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. It is related to the commencement of a good policy in 2002 through to 2004-05\u2014that is, the programme for enrolled nurses. But the Government butchered that as well. There were 240 students who undertook that training. They were the very best in the aged-care sector, and they took on the training to reach the qualification of enrolled nurse. However, when that last class sat their qualifications and graduated, their qualifications were taken away the day after. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is under that sort of climate and environment that this side of the House is extremely sceptical of the Government\u2019s way of managing the tertiary education sector. The sector has been seriously rorted all the way through. It is far too much about institutions and not enough about quality and relevance. It is an absolute shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe see in front of us further complexity. We have not seen any reduction in the number of staff of the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014in actual fact, we find that it is now increasing. We are seriously concerned about the complexities that are emanating from this bill. The Tertiary Education Commission has presumptuously rolled ahead and is using the bill as if it is now law. As my colleagues on this side of the House have explained, we are already seeing the unintended consequences of the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of work to be done in the industry training situation. We still have issues around the overlapping provision\u2014that is, where the polytechnics mimic the behaviour and training of the industry training organisations and are able to access equivalent full-time student funding. When a question of that nature was directed to the previous Minister for Tertiary Education, Michael Cullen, he said honestly\u2014I must give him that\u2014that the Government had not thought that one through and did not have an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe are still living in a very fluid situation, which this bill does not address. When we stop to think about the situation those enrolled nurses encountered we find that it does nothing to give the public confidence that the Government will back people up on what they go into institutions to receive. For the Modern Apprenticeships programme and for those enrolled nurses, this Government should hang its head in shame. Those are just two examples of some very, very poor management of the tertiary education sector over the last 7 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ETurning to the situation of this bill coming into law, I say that we have so much more work to do. When we look at section 195 of the Education Act, which was reviewed this year and which empowers the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit to look at the financial basis of tertiary educations\u2014basically, the institutes of technology and polytechnics section\u2014we see that only three were on their knees at this time. However, it is a very volatile situation. The institutes of technology and polytechnics effectively have got themselves into a problem whereby they are coming to Wellington about every month, begging for money. Yet the problem at the other end is that there is no quality. The report on section 195 stated that in future we should look at the quality coming out of the institutes of technology and polytechnics section, because that, along with financial viability, is hugely important to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would like to give an award to the Labour Government. I believe that in the last 7 years you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce650a51215147bd9cd5776d4d5edf48\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0a0ba7684c34f65948163b7228b8240\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014have qualified in butchery. It gives me great pleasure to award the Labour Government a Modern Apprenticeship in butchery, level 4. I award this certificate to those members on the other side\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae9bd91faaa942a7a887ef07c3537c38\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d6ff0568c574f1a9cdb1ee19020e50a\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: It states: \u201CThe Labour Government. Modern Apprenticeship in Butchery, Level 4. This is to certify that for 7 years the Labour Government has butchered the tertiary education sector. Awarded on 4 December 2007.\u201D Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d237bc6e4d84883be38f4d7a6937b5c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Just by way of explanation, every time the member uses the word \u201Cyou\u201D he is referring to the Chair. In future, the member must refer to a Minister or another member as \u201Cthe Minister\u201D or \u201Cthat member\u2019\u2019\u2014that is, in the third person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002269a4d6621a964a26aba7821587335ed0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269a4d6621a964a26aba7821587335ed0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to say that the ACT Party will be opposing this bill, and to explain why. This bill means more interference with the people who are actually doing the work. It means more State direction of how our universities should function, and it means less diversity. It means more bureaucrats, and it means more taxpayers\u2019 money being spent on collaboration, talkfests, and planning, but not on education. That is why we are opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002268754117c04345eabaa31bc3ceea8fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268754117c04345eabaa31bc3ceea8fc6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call on the third reading of the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill. I say to the National Party that it cannot have it both ways. I say to the member Colin King that the certificate he held up can stay firmly where it currently is, which is with the National Party. National uncapped the numbers and left us with the mess that we are now having to clean up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI say to National members that, year after year, Labour members have been criticised by them in question time in this House for the kinds of courses being provided by an unregulated tertiary sector with a \u201Cbums on seats\u201D model that did not work and that promoted low-quality, low-cost courses. They said that the people who went on those courses assumed they were going on quality courses, but they were not. Now we have this complete about-face from National members, who are apparently saying they did not mean any of that, that they quite like the old system, and that they oppose this one because it means more State control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI ask National members whether they will repeal this legislation if they become the Government. There is silence. I ask whether they have any policy in this area. No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f589ae5c48de40a784f9005be6dab70c\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022881717efc9d44b249ab2e9d7d85047c9\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: They say that it is my turn to speak now. Well, I say to them that they have made a number of speeches tonight, and Colin King, for example, did not mention it at all. Again, I say to National members that it is very, very easy to criticise. It is far easier to do that than to come up with a plan for the tertiary education sector that ensures that the institutions have more secure funding, that they can plan for the longer term, and that they can react far more quickly to the needs of their community and the needs of the regional, local, and national economies. This bill does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI was a member of the Education and Science Committee that heard the submissions. I ask National members where all the outraged opposition to this bill was when it came to the submissions. Where was it? It was not there. A number of very good points were raised during the submission process, particularly by the universities, and we took them on board and we made amendments to the bill. Certainly, most of the submissions were on the issue of academic freedom, and the select committee took them very seriously. But this bill had a surprisingly small number of submissions on it, given the incredible scope of what it is doing and how significant it is, and I believe that that was because the sector it wants more long-term security. It was ironic that, for all that the universities were going on about not wanting the Minister to be involved, a number of the universities that came along to the committee said that they wanted to keep the charters, which are signed off by the Minister. They did not want to get rid of them\u2014and, of course, they can keep them if they want. But they wanted to put in the bill that all the tertiary institutions should have to have these charters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EJust before I sit down I want to raise one other point, which is the issue that many members have talked about tonight\u2014that is, the decision made by Auckland University to restrict entry to its courses. Going by some of the speeches I have heard tonight, it would seem that there are no restricted courses in New Zealand at all. I would love it if anyone who wanted to go to university to become a doctor, and who could pass all the relevant standards in order to become a doctor, was able to do so, but, as we know, our universities that provide medical schools work within a budget, and what this Government will be saying is that here is the budget. Let us be clear: since 2006 we have not been restricting numbers. There has been a 19 percent increase since 2006\u2014$1.2 billion\u2014in the money going into this sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c07aec1ecfa54ac6acdcc7b47b0b6b31\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Foreign students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224371d78cb2bf457ebd9ce29dac526f8b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hayes, who is sitting way up the back of the Chamber\u2014he is not sitting down here with all his colleagues\u2014says it is all going on students. Well, students are actually a very important part of the tertiary education sector. That reminds me of another point I wanted to make, which is that not only has the Labour-led Government invested in the tertiary sector, from industry training\u2014which Mr Colin King was talking about\u2014through to universities, but also it has made university more affordable for students, made paying off student loans more affordable, and at the same time it has increased access to student allowances. This Government cannot be accused of restricting access to universities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI say to the provincial tertiary institutions and to our private training establishments around the country that they should step up to the challenge that Auckland University has put out there. It has said that it may not want to provide certain courses any more. Well, we have some very good tertiary institutions around the country that could step up and provide those courses to students, and those students would not have to move away from home, which they always have had to do in the past. I think one of the worst things about our tertiary sector was that 10 years ago university was considered to be the only area worth going to. If one wanted any sort of future, one went to university, even if university was not necessarily the best provider of what one wanted to study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis bill also says that we value our polytechnics, we value our institutes of technology, and we value our private training establishments. We are saying that where there is a need that should be delivered within the tertiary sector, then it should be delivered. Again, I say to the provincial polytechnics and the private training establishments that they should step up. Auckland University has said that it may be at near capacity, and it may not want to have unrestricted access to all its courses any more. Well, that is an opportunity for other tertiary institutions to step up and say that they are willing to offer those courses, and maybe students and their families would be saved a little money because the students would not have to move to Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, or Dunedin in order to study those courses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI believe that this bill is a very good bill. I am disappointed that the National Party is not supporting it, given how much those members have gone on about the unregulated access to money in the tertiary sector over the last 5 or 6 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022be0d72293c6849f7a1ea72c2b3bae033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be0d72293c6849f7a1ea72c2b3bae033\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I would be very happy to explain to that member why National opposes this legislation, but let me say first that when it comes to tertiary education reform, never have so many people who thought they were so smart been so wrong for so long with so much of a waste of taxpayers\u2019 money as the Labour Government in its 8 years of tertiary education reform. This Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill is what the Labour Government said it would do in the year 2000. Here we are, in the year 2007, before this Government has got around to getting the bill in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad6cd6c73a194308807e2ed82710982a\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022873b491fff2544378137da8f966a0949\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014under urgency, at the end of the year to apply in 2008. We did some rough calculations on what this reform has cost: $400 million. The Labour Government has spent $400 million thinking about tertiary education reform. There have been a few fundamental flaws in that thinking. One has become apparent today, and I would have expected the Government to explain its policy. Here is a simple question: does Labour believe in restricted entry to university?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8fcbb06c05845bea5c535caa6b757b0\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: To medical schools, to architecture schools, to law schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290af1492b60845f893709b73345d361c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I ask whether Labour believes in restricted entry to all university courses, as Auckland University is proposing. Well, those members are caught on the horns of a dilemma, because the direct implication of its funding system is that all universities will restrict entry to their courses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a30712b74cf41078b12985bb34d79e5\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a shame you just thought of it, Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c302024e042e47479d6dcfbc8800540d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: But, of course, the Government\u2019s supporters are against that, which is why that member is so concerned. What will Labour members say to the M\u0101ori and Pacific Island communities in Auckland? I ask how they will explain to those communities, which have the same aspirations as everyone else in New Zealand for a high level of education for their children, that entry to Auckland University courses across the board is now restricted. The big question is how it will be restricted. Well, it will be restricted according to secondary school qualifications. That is obvious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b6c1be659d14374a4cac8a88e46f9ac\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260128bfdc10a4eab81e3aa4d347d3a46\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is, because how else could one do it? What it means is that if one did not do too well at National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) at secondary school, which a lot of M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students do not, then one will never get to go to university. That is determined by the time one is 15. If there was any more of a fundamental breach of Labour\u2019s apparent crocodile tears about equity, then that breaches it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221895a656a3f84a7ab0a843153a7e8551\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: You got it wrong again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47103c28c1343a08be0187aff947ffe\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Where does the member think all the new university students have come from over the last 15 years? They did not come out of a huge increase in the number of secondary school students; they came out of an increase in the number of mature students. There are more secondary school students than there were, but by far the biggest increase has been in the number of mature students. If we stand at the enrolment line at Auckland University with the mature students and ask them what they got for NCEA level 3, they will ask: \u201CWhat is NCEA? I did School Certificate, and I failed it. Here I am, aged 30, realising that there is a second chance, and I am going to university.\u201D, and many of those people succeed very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELabour members have found that after 8 years of tertiary education reform, $400 million worth of thinking about it, and endless damage\u2014particularly to the polytechnic sector\u2014they have achieved one thing. It is the one thing that most of them do not want; that is, restricted entry to university. We could argue for and against the merits of it, and we will have that discussion. But the question is whether this is what Labour wanted, and the answer is no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI will just take members through some of the history, and my colleague Dr Lockwood Smith will agree with this. The \u201Cbums on seats\u201D system that Labour members so roundly condemned was never as open-ended as they say it was. It had a series of controls under National. Half a dozen people sat around the desk with the Minister and they gave the institutions the opportunity to grow. But they had some fiscal control, and they certainly had plenty of flexibility. They did not have a long, complicated bill like this one that dictated all the processes. They did not have 400 bureaucrats\u2014they had about six. Then what happened was that Steve Maharey got in. Well, what a disaster that was. He took his eye off the ball, and the tertiary institutions went crazy because while Labour was busy constructing this complex and elegant sociological model of tertiary education, the institutions were flat-out breaking all the rules, exploiting the loopholes, and running up hundreds of millions of dollars of wasted taxpayers\u2019 money. Not all of them did that, but quite a few of them did that while Labour members faced the other way. Their whole theory about tertiary education was something they were in love with, and they had no idea what was going on in the real world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI was pleased to be a spokesman who helped embarrass them about that: about the fact that they spent a billion dollars over 4 years on diploma-level courses that no student finished. It was the biggest single waste of public money ever that I have come across, apart from, maybe, Think Big. A billion dollars was spent on diploma courses that no student finished, and the Government did not know anything about it. So then the Government cracked down because it was such a political embarrassment. But when it cracked down, it cracked down with the most complicated system one could ever come up with: there were charters, profiles, investment managers, and 400 bureaucrats. I can recall reading a stack of documents; there used to be about a dozen different versions. I would read a stack of documents about the Government\u2019s plans for tertiary education, and do members know the one thing it left out in all those documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b95b5c0c7c4d44b28c0b427f55bc9d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277e929ee607422583826a54e1821b01\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Students never got mentioned. This was office-tower, middle-class, well-paid, secure, risk-averse New Zealand telling our 19 and 20-year-olds what their future was going to be. I conducted a few informal student surveys\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c50fb89bebb4d3a920611b130506e17\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: You really cared about students!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc529dbaab5549e3aaf0b21fb9f4622c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member should listen to this. I conducted a few informal surveys of students and I said to some students: \u201CHave you read the statement of tertiary education priorities, and do you know the eight principles of relevance, equity, blah-blah-blah, and all that sort of rubbish, and the strategic outlook\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b494e90d8bc542ecb41846394807c822\u0022\u003EHon member\u003C/span\u003E: And they all said \u201CYes\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81ebf9e49c0458a8a72eae2b3ca5b23\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: They all said: \u201CYes\u201D. And then they all used four-letter words that indicated that they did not feel that the views taken by a bunch of middle-aged bureaucrats sitting in an office tower were very relevant to their decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022002afa3d107046dfad46b015d8f5c1f4\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: They also used the same four-letter words about student fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b54634e6a8bc45d980af2ce1eeefb6e6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is the point. Who takes the risks about making a decision for tertiary education? I will tell members who takes the risks. One example is a 19-year-old student who does not really know what he wants to do, who sees some programmes on TV that makes some occupations look attractive, and who listens to his parents who make other occupations look attractive. His friends are all going in one direction, his girlfriend is at the other end of the country, and he has to make up his mind. He does, and he manages to do it without Dr Cullen or the vet who thinks he can run the place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAnother example of someone who takes the risks is the 34-year old woman with a husband in a low-paying job, who has a couple of kids, who has capabilities that she has never really explored, and who decides she really wants to be back in the workforce. She is willing to live hard, to work hard, to look after her kids, and to do her study to get a tertiary education. In this new world that Labour has planned, she does not fit, because she will not meet the criteria for restricted entry to university. The plan that was cooked up between some 27-year-old PhD graduate and a general manager at the polytech to try to get their negotiation sorted so they could get their cash happens to stop her course from running. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo a group of people who have no idea about the real world are trying to write plans for the knowledge economy, and I just say to the House that it will not work. It is too complicated, it is too refined, it is called \u201Cstrategy\u201D but it has none of the content of strategy, and in the end it treats young New Zealanders as if they were mindless automatons willing to go shape their lives on the musings of people like those members opposite. Who would make life-changing decisions on the basis of what that rag-tag front bench says is important for New Zealand? Nobody! And that is why National is voting against his legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226553b7a7f259487798de80f9818205cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education (Tertiary Reforms) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022baa27f6928e641a2b3aa856ec4511db6\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8c5a722c54745109674f479a565f19c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc2926a6b98d49909340ec229dd84b77\u0022\u003EPart 1  Annual rates of income tax, amendments to Income Tax Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00222bd0e39313994f418ac711f86732d3b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bd0e39313994f418ac711f86732d3b5\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This bill will be debated in four parts: the three parts of the bill, plus the title. Part 1, which we debate now, contains a number of key issues that National wishes to draw to the attention of the Committee of the whole House. The first issue relates to the setting of the annual tax rates. Some of my colleagues will focus on that issue, because there is, in fact, a golden opportunity tonight for the Government to prove that it cares about the income tax rates. There is the opportunity tonight, if the Government believes in reducing the tax rates, to do so right now with this legislation, because it sets the rates for this year. So, if the Government is serious about reducing personal income tax rates, it has the chance to do that right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I want to draw to the attention of members of the Committee the other issues that we will focus on in respect of Part 1, which contains a number of serious issues. The Government is about to introduce Supplementary Order Paper 167 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne, which will introduce new arrangements for the taxation of redundancy payments. Now that is a new proposal, and it has not been to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. If it had been to the select committee, there would have been submissions around such matters as why redundancy payments had been chosen and why lump-sum payments for accident compensation had not been included, even though a person may receive a lump-sum payment for loss of income that covers more than 1 tax year, just as is the case with redundancy payments. There is an even stronger argument for accident compensation lump-sum payments that cover more than 1 tax year to have tax relief in the same nature as that being given to redundancy payments. But, no, a Supplementary Order Paper was marched in at the last minute. We saw it only today. It has not been anywhere near a select committee. All of the issues that should have been covered before a Supplementary Order Paper comes to this Committee will not have been covered. Again, colleagues of mine will discuss that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 167 also covers the vexed issue of finance leases. The Government sneaked into the select committee a while back Supplementary Order Paper 119 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne. Government members did not even tell us it was retrospective and to do with finance leases versus operating leases; they tried to be all quiet about that. The Supplementary Order Paper caused a hell of an uproar, because it would have put a whole lot of existing finance leases out of business and caused major problems for certain businesses in New Zealand. After the select committee heard submissions on Supplementary Order Paper 119, the Government withdrew it. What happened then? Government members marched into the Chamber today, bringing Supplementary Order Paper 167 in amongst all the other papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 167 sets out a new attempt to handle those leases. When I talked to the businesses involved, I was advised that there are still major problems. There has not been adequate consultation. The provisions in Supplementary Order Paper 167 are a compromise, I know, but there is no need for that compromise. The Government could close the loophole going forward and not put existing deals out of business. But there is no doubt that if the proposals in Supplementary Order Paper 167 to do with finance leases go through tonight, there will be business deals that are put out as a consequence of that. It is bad lawmaking when through retrospective legislation we interfere with deals that have been done in good faith under existing law. That is another issue we intend to debate in relation to Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThen we get on to all sorts of other issues in Part 1. The issue of the research and development tax credits is covered in Part 1, and we will be making some comment about that. There is the issue of raising the threshold limit for charitable donations. We support that proposal; it was National Party policy. We will be covering that. There are also the issues about the change of name for Working for Families tax credits, and, of course, the new KiwiSaver provisions for setting up the tax credit provisions for employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe wish to cover in some detail all of those specific issues in Part 1 tonight. In fact, we will be moving amendments on some of them tonight because they are so outrageous. The provision to change the taxation treatment of redundancy payments in isolation and in an ad hoc fashion has had no consideration by the select committee. It is just absurd to bring in a provision like that. The industry out there today is gobsmacked that there has been no chance to make submissions on that. Other issues could have been covered much more sensibly with a generic provision such as that. As I mentioned a moment ago, my advice on new clause 78BB and the provisions on finance leases on Supplementary Order Paper 167 is that they will actually kill existing deals. There will be litigation. The Government should not be doing this. When the select committee looked at that issue in relation to Supplementary Order Paper 119, the Government withdrew that Supplementary Order Paper because it saw that it was a poorly thought through provision with far greater implications than the Government had assumed. As a consequence, the Government withdrew that Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is not good enough to now march Supplementary Order Paper 167 into this Committee without scrutiny. The provisions on that Supplementary Order Paper will cause existing deals to be destroyed, and for that to happen without the chance for scrutiny by the select committee is not good enough. That is what the provisions on Supplementary Order Paper 167 will do. I want to draw the attention of the Committee in particular to the new clause 78BB, which is the bit that handles the finance leases; to new clause 85B, which is the bit that handles the redundancy payments; and to new clause 155B, which includes the tax administration amendments in respect of those redundancy payment provisions. None of those measures have been to the select committee, and no submissions have been heard on them. They will have a major impact on New Zealanders, businesses and ordinary taxpayers alike. There has been no chance for people to make submissions on that Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is no way to implement tax law. It actually undermines the good work I acknowledge that the Minister has done. The Hon Peter Dunne has put out a discussion document and gone through a reasonable process, then undermined it at the last minute with Supplementary Order Papers containing provisions that were not adequately consulted on and that no submissions have been heard on. I appeal to the Minister. We will be proposing a number of amendments tonight, one of which will be in relation to the redundancy payment provisions on Supplementary Order Paper 167. I would like the Minister to seriously reflect on the fact that there has been no chance for submissions to be heard on them. Thorough consideration should be given to them tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbd348d693a041ff87fe93f89f1b2e33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbd348d693a041ff87fe93f89f1b2e33\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak briefly on new clause 85B, which Dr Smith has just mentioned. New clause 85B appears in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 167. It is the provision that will give tax relief for redundancy payments. I am sad to hear that the National Party will vote against another tax cut that this Government is bringing before the House. But there it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ELet us just have a look at the scheme of this tax relief measure, which will be introduced for employees who are in a difficult situation and who deserve some sort of relief. The legislation that is set out in Supplementary Order Paper 167 will make the taxation of redundancy payments fairer to low and middle income New Zealanders. Clearly, redundancy payments are employment income, so it is fair that they are taxed. Some members who have practised in the employment field will remember that in the 1980s and prior, redundancy payments were subject to a specialist and favourable tax regime whereby they were taxed at a very low rate. Under the current law, which has remained\u2014as far as I can recall\u2014since the early 1990s, low and middle income people can be pushed into a higher tax bracket if they receive redundancy pay. If that happened, it would come at a very difficult time for most people. Clearly, it would be a terrible thing for someone to have to contemplate, on top of losing his or her job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper will introduce a simple tax rebate to apply to redundancy payments received on or after 1 December 2006. This rebate will allow low and middle income New Zealanders to retain more of their redundancy pay and will keep complexity and compliance costs to a minimum. The rebate will be based on the flat rate of 6c per dollar, up to $60,000 per redundancy. Let us think of an example. It means that somebody who receives a redundancy payment of, say, $20,000 will be able to claim a tax rebate of $1,200. Someone who receives a $60,000 redundancy payout will be able to claim a rebate of $3,600. There is a maximum redundancy payout provided for in the Supplementary Order Paper. The maximum payout that qualifies for a rebate is $60,000, so the rebate itself would be capped at $3,600. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI am sad to hear members opposite announce the intention to vote against this tax relief measure for low and middle income New Zealanders. These changes will make the taxation of redundancy payments fairer and give certainty and more security to an issue that has been of concern to workers and unions for some time. I am very pleased to support the measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00226078f9e086c5459990268667699e189b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226078f9e086c5459990268667699e189b\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise tonight to speak on various parts of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill, but for starters I will focus on Part 1. As my colleague Lockwood Smith said, we will be canvassing various clauses of the bill, clause by clause, and taking it issue by issue as it comes along. In particular, I will focus tonight on three areas. Firstly, I will deal with clause 3 and the rates of income tax for 2007-08. Later on tonight I will have a look at the changes to the charities legislation in clauses 27 and 85. Clause 85 deals in particular with rebate in respect of gifts of money. Later on, I will look at the new sections KJ 6 through KJ 12, which introduce changes to the KiwiSaver employer tax credits. So there is a fair bit to cover. I know that other colleagues will deal with the various issues tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn rebuttal of the chairman of the committee in regard to Supplementary Order Paper 167, the issue here is a matter of process. This particular issue did not come before the committee, but has ended up in a Supplementary Order Paper before us in the Chamber tonight without a wider consideration of other matters such as accident compensation payments, which my colleague pointed out could have been brought into consideration along the way. Once again, a Supplementary Order Paper has been thrown on the Table without due consideration and without coming before the select committee, and in our opinion that is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI focus on clause 3, \u201CRates of income tax for 2007-08 tax year\u201D. Taxation rates in this country have been far too high for far too long. Under this Labour Government we have seen tax rates climb, not fall. Since 2000 the number of people in the 39c tax rate has increased, and as a result of that we have seen taxation collected in this country like never before. For the year ended 30 June 2007, $56.5 billion in tax was collected from this country. If we take a step back to the year 2000, $34.4 billion was collected in taxation. That is a total increase of $22.1 billion over 7 short years\u2014$22.1 billion. That is a whopping 5,525 additional tax dollars per every man, woman, and child. It is a 64 percent increase in direct taxation on the basis that this Government knows best how to spend taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014not its own money, but the taxpayers\u2019 money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EHow have we ended up in this position? There has been absolutely no movement in tax rates over the course of this Government, except in this latest bill that we see before us. I call it the \u201CToo Little, Too Late Bill\u201D. There are some tax deductions now but we have not seen that over the course of this Government, until this stage. What have we seen? Taxes are up, the thresholds have been unchanged, and we saw the \u201Cchewing gum tax cut\u201D threshold proposed and then taken out by this Government. We have seen tax bracket creep as people have moved into higher tax brackets. When we started out, there was the proposal by the Government that no more that 5 percent of the country would be above a 39 percent tax bracket. Now we see nurses, policemen, tradesmen, and wharfies all creeping up into that 39 percent tax bracket through bracket creep. They are paying more and more tax. We now see 12 to15 percent of taxpayers in that higher tax bracket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EOne has to ask whether we are going to see personal tax cuts over the next year? We have seen Dr Cullen out there proposing it, having his arm twisted by the Prime Minister. I come back to a Cabinet paper signed by Michael Cullen in 19 April 2007. There will be Ministers on the other side of the House, for example Mr Shane Jones, who were not present when this paper was signed off. What it shows is the determination of this Government to keep tax rates high. Clause 23 states the commitment from Dr Cullen: \u201CTo maintain our commitment to the long term fiscal objectives\u201D\u2014that is Cullen-speak for building the kitty\u2014\u201CI may need to make some adjustments to future Budgets. These are likely to be that we do not adjust tax thresholds in the medium term, thereby retaining fiscal drag and potentially allowing tax to GDP ratios to rise slightly. Accordingly, this paper seeks Cabinet agreement to rescind our previous decision to adjust income tax thresholds.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThere we go. It is a paper no doubt signed off by the Minister sitting in the chair tonight, Peter Dunne. It is a paper that is going to rescind on any future tax increases. It goes on to say: \u201CWithin the projection period, i.e from 2011-2012, we will adjust tax thresholds for inflation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd65eea5e6244adcb6833cc2184198c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd65eea5e6244adcb6833cc2184198c3\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I address clause 3 in Part 1, and I will read it out in a slightly reconstructed way. What it says is that the income tax imposed by section BB 1 of the Income Tax Act 2004 will once again apply in the 2007-08 tax year. If we actually sit down and interpret what that means in more technical language used by economists, we see it means that once more we are doing absolutely nothing about bracket creep\u2014absolutely nothing. This is the meat and potatoes of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. We have here a huge bill of great complexity\u2014it is 409 pages, not counting the other Supplementary Order Papers\u2014and there are various parts of it that move the game forward in the right direction. For example, if we look at business taxation, we see that the cut in the corporate tax rate is something that makes some sense. But, on the other hand, what we see even in that area is the lack of a coherent overall strategy to drive business taxation down to where New Zealand actually needs it. In New Zealand there were 44,000 partnerships as at February 2006. There are 74,388\u2014let us round that up to 75,000\u2014individual proprietorships. None of these will benefit from that cut, even though the cut itself makes a contribution in that general area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThis is the heart of the matter. We have been looking for 7 or 8 years to this Government to come forward with a coherent strategy. This was its opportunity, and what do we see? We see that it just wants to deal with it by repeating the rates set out in the schedule of the Income Tax Act 2004. This is against the background of some central statistics that are absolutely crucial to the political debate between the two major parties. These will form the basis of a vigorous contest between the two parties, and will explain why, in the minority report of this vast bill, the minority view of the National Party simply stated: \u201CThe National Party recognises that the company tax rates will be dropping to 30 percent, but we believe that personal income tax rates should also be lowered.\u201D We cannot have a clearer statement of intent on a central issue than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EAs recently as 2 years ago we looked at the statistics, and we saw that $20 billion more in tax had been accumulated by Dr Cullen since he took over as the Minister of Finance in 2000. That figure will be well in excess of $20 billion today. The OECD revenue statistics recently quoted a very interesting comparative study of Australian and New Zealand economic performance. The total percentage of revenue collected at all levels in Australia, namely provincial, state, and federal levels, was 30.9 percent in 2005\u2014say, 31 percent. In New Zealand it is six points higher than that. That is one of the margins that explain why New Zealand has fallen so rapidly in the last 7 years behind the comparative economic performance of Australia. The punitive rate of 39 cents in the dollar, when it was introduced for reasons that made no sense at all\u2014we all understood what it was about when it was introduced; it was the politics of envy\u2014was explained away at the time as attracting only 5 percent of taxpayers. But because of the bracket-creep phenomenon and because there has been no systematic attempt to address the issue of comprehensive income tax reform, we now find 14 percent of New Zealand taxpayers are paying that rate. This includes basic professions. It includes schoolteachers, nurses, and junior accountants. No wonder we are seeing the exit of 75,000 New Zealanders across the Tasman or to other parts of the world\u201480 percent of whom are under the age of 40. We are losing our best, youngest, most innovative New Zealanders, and part of the reason, but not the whole reason, is this almost unbelievable unwillingness to use the massive accumulative surpluses to actually deal with the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00220c7b365d232a404b8a99428c979bdc98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c7b365d232a404b8a99428c979bdc98\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to take a call on Part 1 of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill, because 17 December 2007, just 6 days away, is the 20th anniversary of the start of my long campaign to advocate for a far fairer and more generous tax rebate scheme in respect of gifts made to charities and churches in this country. Over those 20 years I have been involved in advocating this to every single, successive Minister of Finance. Oddly enough, the only one I missed out was the Hon Peter Dunne, who is the Minister in the chair tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI think this is a day not only for me to celebrate this achievement but also, more important, for churches and charities to come to grips with the reality that the rebate that until now has been only $630 per annum following a gift of the massive sum of $1,890 maximum will now be entirely uncapped for both individuals and companies. Now even a $1 million gift made by an individual will receive a full 33.33 percent rebate, or, in that case, $333,333.33. Companies will go from just 5 percent of net income to, potentially, 100 percent of net income, and that is something that, as I say, is to be celebrated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI am also delighted that the business tax reduction from 33c to 30c, which is reflected in Part 1 only because of the consequential amendments that follow from it, is occurring. I remember taking part in the debate in the 2005 election\u2014when, of course, I was a member of the United Future party\u2014among all the financial spokespersons of all the parties. There were only two spokespersons in that debate who were advocating for a reduction in the business tax rate: myself and Rodney Hide. No one else was. No other party in this House had that as its policy, and I say that because the commentary always refers to this legislation as a confidence and supply win for both United Future and New Zealand First. Well, if New Zealand First was in favour of business tax cuts at that stage, it certainly kept it a very well-kept secret from the rest of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI also applaud the KiwiSaver changes that are made in Part 1. I have long been an advocate for tax credits, which this bill now provides for both employees and employers to encourage savings. It always seemed to me to be an anachronism that whereas such incentives to encourage savings apply in virtually every other Western jurisdiction that I know of, in the late 1980s and the early 1990s we became purer than pure in attempting to have a system that was supposed to encourage savings by having absolutely no tax breaks whatsoever. I think that was a ridiculous step, and I am very glad to see it is now being changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESo far I have been praising Part 1, but I want to say, as the Southern Man said, it is a hard job to find the perfect income tax bill. There is a great failure in this particular bill, and that is that of the Hon Michael Cullen, who, contrary to the undertaking he gave in Budget 2005, did not adjust personal income tax rates for fiscal drag. Even the very small movement, which Michael Cullen promised in Budget 2005 and reneged on in Budget 2007, was in itself, in any event, totally inadequate. If we adjust for inflation from the year 2000, the 33c tax bracket should now move from $38,000\u2014which is now well below the average full-time wage income of about $44,000\u2014to $46,000, which indeed would be above the average income figure. That means a great deal for hundreds of thousands of middle-income New Zealanders. Likewise, the 33c bracket should have moved in this bill from $60,000 to $73,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI say tonight that in respect of my new party, Future New Zealand, we are committed to regularly adjusting personal income tax rates in this country to reflect inflation. It is unconscionable to do otherwise. For many, many years not just Michael Cullen but other Ministers of Finance have allowed fiscal drag deliberately to work in favour of the Crown and against the taxpayers of New Zealand, and that is unacceptable. The taxpayers of New Zealand should come first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00227dfb78e946e4499dbaafd454b2981924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dfb78e946e4499dbaafd454b2981924\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is actually quite coincidental that my call is following that of Gordon Copeland, who is one of the three members, including myself and Katrina Shanks, who are members of the Institute of Chartered Accountants. I am sure that the three of us are delighted to see the media release put out by the very sensible members of the institute, which said the Government\u2019s latest move to introduce this special provision for tax relief on redundancy payments does nothing to fix the more fundamental problem of New Zealand\u2019s progressive tax rate structure. This Labour Government complicated the tax structure even more by introducing the 39c rate, so I am quite sure that at the last minute there was a backroom deal somewhere whereby the Government brought in a flat rate of tax rebate for redundancy payments. I heard the compassionate speeches made by the Labour member, who said how wonderful it was and how considerate it was that that move was made for the lower and middle income workers of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI thought that while we are in a compassionate mood I would put forward a Supplementary Order Paper and invite the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, to comment on whether he sees fit to support it. Personally, like members on this side, I cannot see why, on the one hand, we gave special consideration to redundancy payments but, on the other hand, we exclude people who receive lump sum compensation payments for permanent impairment. So if the Minister sees fit to give relief to workers who face the unfortunate situation of redundancy and to give a rebate on their lump sum payment, I really think that the Minister needs to take a stand as to why individuals who are unfortunate\u2014usually in circumstances not of their own making\u2014suffer permanent impairment, and receive lump sum compensation should not be entitled to have the same relief as is offered in the late Supplementary Order Paper put forward by the Labour Government. I say to the Minister that many individuals who are injured, whether they incur injury at work or outside the workplace, would be of working age, and that permanent impairment would lead to hardship that, I would say, in comparison with the situation with redundancy payments, is of a more extensive and permanent nature. Why should those individuals be punished on top of their physical injury? The fact is that they suffer from permanent impairment, so why, financially, can they not get the same relief? I am sure that the Hon Peter Dunne will be looking very hard at this very sensible amendment I have put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EMy colleague, the very hard-working Dr Wayne Mapp, is less positive. He has cast doubt on the compassionate nature of the Minister of Revenue, the Hon Peter Dunne, but at this stage I have not decided to concede that. I hope that the Minister will in the next while start to look at my amendment. I think he will owe the public an explanation if he turns down this very sensible amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other provision I will comment on\u2014and it is one I actually support because it is basically National Party policy\u2014is in terms of the tax rebate and removing the cap for deduction for contribution donations made to charity. I just want to say that it takes the National Party to really get Labour and United Future into the modern day, after all, where donors should be rewarded and charitable organisations should be recognised for the good work they do. I think this is a great initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022102583f67502481eb4015759805680c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022102583f67502481eb4015759805680c1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am totally bemused by what I am hearing from the National Party. You see, the National Party has said, for example, that, as far as the totality of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill is concerned, it supports cuts to the business tax rate. It supports, for example, the new research and development provisions. National has always said that. Then I heard Pansy Wong say that she has long campaigned for and supported the provisions that allow tax incentives for people and companies to make charitable donations. She said all that. If one listened to such speeches, one would not believe that National is going to vote against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc2ddbe11f84c628db2ea6ebeeacf70\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: What are they voting against?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280997798fd8f4c03b310303b0c24dee5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure. What I think would be a useful thing for National members to do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282be7d89db484a89a06ac91301007a8f\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: They always just vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8f84f706314ddb8fa947322f4b2ce6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they do; they just oppose, oppose, oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWhat National members could do is say: \u201CWe don\u2019t like Labour\u2019s tax policy generally. We don\u2019t like the differentials in the tax rate even though the Government has indicated there might be some changes coming in, but we think this is generally a good move and we should vote for it.\u201D That would be a sensible thing for National to do, and it could campaign on the bits that it does not like. But, no, National is going to vote against the bill. It is completely and utterly bemusing, and I simply do not understand it. Pansy Wong said she strongly supports tax incentives for people and companies to make charitable donations, and Gordon Copeland said he has campaigned on this issue for a long time. Everybody thinks it is a good idea, so why does the National Party not vote for it? It is a very, very simple matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the redundancy provision. Once again this is taxpayer-friendly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022066148288aaa4c07a329a075bd267896\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Declare your interest!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5ac64d33edb4f4db48d73c8af24e05c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, this does not apply to the fact that redundancy provisions are not in our particular contract\u2014more is the pity, I say. The truth is that this will have a positive impact on low and middle income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343af04a1784432daf379107e16e5a38\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: What about accident compensation sufferers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022872f58341d5b44cab8c0febf77da6aff\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am interested to know from Pansy Wong whether this is taxpayer-friendly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246059f308cc34c40baadf2729af714de\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: What about accident compensation lump-sum payments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba9a30903a345568e3288e8b6315604\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but is this particular issue taxpayer-friendly? One has to say that it is. Therefore, I ask why the National Party is voting against it. What has National got against helping out people who through no fault of their own get redundancy payments and getting better tax treatment for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI want to speak now on behalf of the workers of South Pacific Tyres. Fortunately, this legislation is effective from 1 December 2006, so it will be able to take into account redundancy payments that were made to those workers. What happens now is that people will be entitled to a rebate, which will be based on a flat rate of 6c per dollar up to $60,000 in redundancy. That means, for example, that if a worker gets a $60,000 redundancy payout\u2014and some people who have worked for 17 or 18 years in a particular place might be entitled to something like that\u2014that worker is entitled to a tax rebate of $3,600, which he or she applies for. If, for example, a worker is entitled to a $20,000 redundancy payout, then he or she is entitled to a flat-rate rebate of 6c, which comes out at a $1,200 rebate. This is money going back into the hands of those workers. I say to the National Party that this is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIn the old days, up until 1992, the tax rate on redundancy was 5 percent. Then the National Party changed that and introduced a system whereby people got taxed on their normal rate. The problem now is that workers can be earning during the year, then get laid off and receive their redundancy payment, and that takes them into the highest bracket, because the total income is assessed for tax purposes in that tax year. What we are trying to do is say that, in fact, the redundancy payment is different from so many other things. It is compensation for loss of earnings, and it will enable workers to try to put a bit away when they are out of a job, until they get a new one. In this situation we should tax people more fairly, and I say that is a good thing. People should be able to get some tax relief when they have lost their jobs through no fault of their own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI come back to my fundamental question. If the basic argument is to help these people out a bit, because it is no fault of their own, why is the National Party opposing this? It just does not seem\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ee698982f3444c2822db40e13dab341\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: What about accident compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290eb4a5a46db45759efa981861adc1ff\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Members are saying: \u201CWhat about this? What about that?\u201D. Why do they not support this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccef3397731f4db6bdd6481c1127a6e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccef3397731f4db6bdd6481c1127a6e6\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is polite first of all, before we enter the Committee stage, to thank those who have been involved in the formulation of this bill, those who sat around the Finance and Expenditure Committee table, and the officials who helped us wade through it. I have a problem, though, in that since the bill first arrived at the select committee there has been a change in the chair of the committee; also, the bill has changed radically from the one the select committee first considered. We had submissions on it and changes from officials, etc., but the bill that has arrived here today has parts to it that are substantially different from the bill that the select committee spent probably over 6 months on in consideration, deliberation, and taking submissions. That is totally unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI could talk about clause 3 of Part 1, which is the bit that deals with income tax rates and addresses the $20 billion extra per annum in personal tax that has been taken by the Government every year since 1999\u2014$55 billion - odd. Over $1 billion a week now is taken in personal tax. I could compare the tax rates in New Zealand with the Australian tax rates and their thresholds that have been changed to the benefit of the taxpayer every year for last 5 years. I could talk about the 14 percent of taxpayers who are now in the 39c tax rate bracket rather than the 33c tax rate bracket\u2014the 5 percent that Labour said would be on the high rate in 1999. I could talk about all those who have been dragged up through fiscal drag\u2014the pumping of inflation from this current Government to drag them into higher tax brackets. I could talk about all those things, but I will not; I will leave that to colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to do is particularly look at the amendments to Part 1 on Supplementary Order Paper 167, which deal with amendments to the Income Tax Act 2004. Supplementary Order Paper 167 in the name of the Minister, the Hon Peter Dunne, is interesting in that we have 22 pages of last-minute amendments that arrived at lunchtime today. That replaces three pages of amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 119, dated earlier this year, dealing with finance leases. Supplementary Order Paper 119 had a kick-off date of 20 June 2007. We note here that the dates affecting finance leases on the new Supplementary Order Paper are backdated to, and include, 20 June 2007. That is actually significant. Many submitters\u2014many learned professionals\u2014submitted on Supplementary Order Paper 119. The Finance and Expenditure Committee had many discussions, and was very concerned about the retrospective nature, the catch-all drift nature, of the original Supplementary Order Paper, to the point where the Minister agreed and pulled the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI point out that in the commentary on the bill one entire page is given to the select committee\u2019s reasons on why the finance lease rules in the original Supplementary Order Paper were pulled. Then, just a few hours ago, this new Supplementary Order Paper 167 was launched on members of the House. That is absolutely outrageous. There has been no consultation, no discussion, and no discussion paper. All and sundry believed there was further work to be done around finance leases. I just do not understand quite why this Government is trying to bulldoze through legislation such as this, which confronts Sir Ivor Richardson\u2019s taxation accord process of 1992 where there was open consultation and open discussion, and where we get buy-in from those who participate in and need to enforce taxation law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMy colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith referred to new section 78BB. In my second reading speech I also raised issues about this part in relation to Supplementary Order Paper 119. It is a drift-net, because it seems to be law written for discovery. Many questions were asked of officials and advisers. We asked what the problem was, who the problem was, what the quantum was, and what the risk was. Basically, those questions were met with blank stares. We constantly asked for further quantifiable information, but very little was forthcoming. Thus the original Supplementary Order Paper was pulled in order to discover more information. I do appreciate that discussions were made outside of the select committee between various officials from the Inland Revenue Department, Treasury, and so on, but the Finance and Expenditure Committee was totally blind to the changes that were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESome of the original problems with Supplementary Order Paper 119 and Supplementary Order Paper 167 were their retrospective nature. The public relations from the Minister responsible for Treasury and the Minister of Revenue today started to push away that this measure is still retrospective in its nature. It will still be subject to litigation. At the end of the day, the parties caught in the crossfire, as I read this, will actually be New Zealand entities\u2014New Zealand financial institutions\u2014which will be sued at both ends from an offshore party and an onshore party because the terms of the original leases have changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI have a few questions to ask of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, that I will go through over the night, but one question I would like to ask him is what the fiscal risk is here. It was explained to us that the future value of all lease payments is unchanged. It is only the present value that is at risk here. It is the time value of money. I recall that someone mentioned that about $200 million was at risk, but we were not told whether it was per annum, over 5 years, or over 10 years. If it is over 5 years, that is about a $3 billion notional problem. What is it? How can we be putting it into legislation of a retrospective nature like this when the quantums are not given? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would argue that Supplementary Order Paper 167 is actually punishing those New Zealand companies that are trying to minimise the impact to New Zealand of the high interest rates that are a result of this current Government. These are mostly capital-intensive, large notional infrastructure projects, I believe, but, again, we were never told. I look forward to the Minister describing some of the leases if he could. Under the Fiscal Responsibility Act, I presume\u2014and I am open to be corrected\u2014there should be some costings around the Supplementary Order Paper. What are the costs? What are the benefits? Under this new Supplementary Order Paper the parties involved have to pay back one-sixth, or, read another way, 16.666 percent\u2014call it 17 percent\u2014of the depreciation claimed over the life of the asset. So why should these companies in New Zealand be singled out like that? There are some assets at 48c depreciation. Essentially the depreciation for them is now 31c in the dollar. I ask the Minister to clarify that point further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee spent much time, and expressed much concern, particularly about the retrospective nature of this legislation. I am sure that we have not heard the end of it. Quite frankly I am sick and tired of the fact that every time I get up to talk about a KiwiSaver bill, or a bill in relation to these taxation issues, we have yet another Supplementary Order Paper thrown at us at the last minute. I find that embarrassing for this House and I think a lot of explaining needs to be done. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022c408c889eabd4873a6568c2c9556b99d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c408c889eabd4873a6568c2c9556b99d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I want to respond to a number of the points that have been raised so far by members who have taken part in this debate. I will start by talking about the issue of finance leases. I note, incidentally, that the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee stated: \u201CThe majority of us accept that a change was necessary because a small number of cross-border leases have been classified as operating leases for tax purposes even though they are financial transactions and treated as such in the financial accounts of the taxpayers.\u201D And further on, the committee stated: \u201CWe asked officials to consider further the application of the legislation to existing arrangements. We understand that officials have since been working on alternative transitional options for existing leases,\u201D etc. That is precisely what has been happening since the decision was taken to withdraw Supplementary Order Paper 119. The amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 167 in my name reflects the work that has been done and the solutions that have been reached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI ask members to let me go through precisely what Supplementary Order Paper 167 says, then I will come to some of the questions that Mr Foss has raised. Under the proposal on Supplementary Order Paper 167, the leases to be affected by those rules are those that were entered into after 20 May 1999 and in which the lease asset is used mainly overseas and a person other than the lessor is earning income that is not subject to New Zealand income tax from the use of that asset, and a person other than the lessor has substantially all the risks and rewards incidental to ownership of the asset. Leases that do not satisfy those requirements, which in effect are most leases, will be unaffected by the amendments that I have tabled as part of this bill. If the lease is affected, the consequences depend upon the date that the lease was entered into. For leases that were entered into prior to 20 June 2007, the lessor will have to pay back one-sixth of the depreciation previously claimed and to reduce future depreciation deductions by one-sixth. That treatment is a pragmatic compromise that deters aggressive tax minimisation schemes and recovers some lost revenue, while limiting the negative effects on existing commercial arrangements. For all other leases, the taxpayer will be required to reclassify the lease as a finance lease and to recognise additional income or expenditure in the year when the lease becomes a finance lease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMr Foss asked some questions relating to the likely cost of the proposal. The advice I have is that from known leases the likely cost is around $92 million, and that the cost as a result of these amendments will reduce by $16 million. I need to advise the Committee that there is some sensitivity around this point. It is a net present value calculation. We are aware of only two leases at the moment that come within this broad contention. Therefore, it is not appropriate for me to discuss taxpayer affairs further. But I can say to the Committee that in developing the solution set out on Supplementary Order Paper 167, there have been consultations with affected parties and others, and the solution that has been arrived at is one that seeks to deal with the particular problem. It is a much narrower solution than was proposed on the original Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIf I can turn to some of the other issues that members have raised, I think it was Mr Groser and one or two other speakers who made reference to clause 3, which relates to the personal income tax rates issue. I am someone who has been on record for a very long time as being a strong advocate for personal income tax reductions. I think I have that reputation. I note that this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227317fa3b32a24a0f958b64f0cdd15e69\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Prove it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8c48e8cfc740d299d3e6248c5e2242\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The last time we had personal tax reductions in this country I was also in the position that I am in now. My record speaks for itself; it is not just words. The reality is that in this term we have done significant taxation reform. The business tax reform package was a United Future initiative as part of our confidence and supply agreement. It was the first business tax reduction in this country in 20 years. I am committed to seeing personal tax reductions. I know that the Minister of Finance is, as well, and I can assure the Committee that we are working on those reductions at this moment. Members will just have to wait and see what transpires from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOne of the previous speakers referred to the charitable donations regime. That again arose, contrary to what Ms Wong said, from the confidence and supply agreement with United Future that was signed in October 2005\u2014long before the National Party released its policy. I welcome National\u2019s support for the policy we set out to achieve from October 2005. I think it is a good policy, and I am glad National agrees with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI also want to say some words about Ms Wong\u2019s proposed amendment with regard to the redundancy provision, in so far as it affects accident compensation payments. There are some problems with the amendment she proposed, and I need to advise the Committee of those. The amendment proposed by the member actually amends the 2004 Income Tax Act. The difficulty with that is that that Act has been repealed with effect from 1 April 2008 under the rewrite bill, which brought in the new Income Tax Act 2007. So the member seeks to amend legislation that does not exist. But, beyond that, her amendment does not have any impact beyond 1 April 2008. It would apply to accident compensation payments for the period from December 2006\u2014so presumably from the commencement of the 2007 calendar year\u2014through that little window that ends in April 2008. So in that sense the amendment is unworkable. I understand the sentiment behind the amendment, but I say it is unworkable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think those are the major points that members have raised to date, and I have sought to comment on them. If other matters are raised, I will comment on them as the evening progresses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u00229984f5047f13400fa89b23d646a618c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229984f5047f13400fa89b23d646a618c6\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take this call to speak to the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill tonight. The area I would like to speak on tonight is research and development tax credits. Research and development is fundamentally important to New Zealand if we want to progress our country, increase our productivity, and be at the cutting edge of what we do. New Zealand is a small country and is quite boutiquey in what it produces, so it is important that we invest, and encourage investment, in our research and development so that we stay at the cutting edge, so that we can produce things in the global market that other countries cannot produce, and so that we can demand premium prices for those products. When we do that, we will find that our productivity will increase and that we will become wealthier, and, because our companies are doing so much better, our country as a whole will become wealthier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe question really is how to encourage companies to do research and development, to take their products to the next level by investing in their technologies, and to be at the cutting edge in their industries. How do we actually encourage our companies to do this? It is quite a commitment, especially as companies are struggling as it is to get ahead, to pay employees, and to go out to global markets, because it is a big step to go from a domestic market to a global market. So how do we encourage our companies to reinvest back into themselves through research and development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EIt is really important, when we look at these tax credits, to go very slowly and look very carefully, because there can be a downside to producing research and development tax credits in our country. It has been shown overseas that there have been major pitfalls when research and development credits have been put in place. The vehicle by which this bill is looking to increase the productivity of our businesses, and to encourage our companies to invest in themselves, is this research and development tax credit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI was not on the Finance and Expenditure Committee that considered this bill. Shane Jones, the previous chair of the committee, was in the Chamber but has lost interest and wandered off, but I see that Charles Chauvel is here tonight. He is the present chair of the committee. He is sitting across the Chamber and has taken one call tonight, I do believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EHow do we know this is actually the correct vehicle to use in research and development? Officials from the Inland Revenue Department, I believe, came and briefed the select committee. As this policy is based essentially on the Australian tax credit policy in relation to that country\u2019s Inland Revenue Department, Shane Jones, the chair of the committee at the time, asked our Inland Revenue Department officials who came in to brief the committee on this part of the legislation whether there was any evidence that the research and development credits in Australia were making a difference and actually working. The officials said that they did not know whether they were making a difference. I do believe, reading through the minutes, that Shane Jones asked that question of the officials more than once, and each time they came back and could not say that these research and development credits were actually making a difference. Yet we have still gone down this path, which is really interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EWe are all keen to get research and development moving along in New Zealand, and we are all keen to invest in research and development, but it is actually about finding the correct vehicle. It is about ensuring that we have enough submissions in, that enough research has been done, and that the officials have the answers to the questions we ask when putting this type of legislation together. This is what we need in order to put together the right type of legislation with the right vehicle in it for our companies and for New Zealand so that we do this very precious research and development. That is what this is actually about. We have to remember that in New Zealand research and development is currently 100 percent deductible for tax purposes, so already companies are getting 100 percent back. This legislation basically gives a credit at 15 percent tax rebate on top of the 100 percent deductibility already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022df766440478346edaaad5a640b73c955\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df766440478346edaaad5a640b73c955\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the Minister taking a call a moment ago, and I would like to follow up with him on a couple of the issues he responded to. The first is the issue of the proposed new tax treatment for redundancy payments contained on Supplementary Order Paper 167. The Minister ruled out Pansy Wong\u2019s amendment on technical grounds, saying that it covered only a certain time period. I put to the Minister in the chair, and to the Government, that what they are trying to do here with redundancy payments has some logic to it, because a redundancy payment is a lump sum paid in recognition of a number of years\u2019 work. Therefore, it covers more than 1 tax year. I can see that the Government\u2019s argument is that it is unfair that it should be taxed at the additional marginal rate of the year in which the payment is made, because it puts the person up into a higher tax bracket, when, if it was spread over all the years of employment involved, it may not put the person into the higher tax bracket. But the issue of compensation for injury, where a person gets a lump-sum payment because he or she has been injured at work and can no longer be involved in full-time work, is a similar issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe lump-sum payment can cover more than 1 year\u2019s work. All we are asking the Government and the Minister in the chair to do is to be rational. If they are going to make this provision for redundancy payments, there is an even more powerful argument to make it for compensation payments, because the poor person receiving the compensation payment may never be able to work again. Such people have been injured at work, they get a lump sum covering more than 1 year\u2019s payment, they are put into a higher tax bracket, and exactly the same arguments apply. It should not be beyond the wit of the officials in the Chamber tonight to change the provision on Supplementary Order Paper 167 to also include accident compensation lump-sum payments that cover more than 1 income tax year. I would really appreciate the Minister\u2019s advice as to why that obvious anomaly is being ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would like to raise with the Minister the matter of finance leases, also covered on Supplementary Order Paper 167. The Minister told the Committee that the cost of these operational leases, which are really finance leases, is roughly $92 million\u2014I think that is what he is saying\u2014and the provision on Supplementary Order Paper 167 reduces that cost to the Crown down to $16 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022883920ffb62e4e84ad4913451f778c75\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: By $16 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4b47dc932644e2a3defc201a8a48d0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It reduces it by $16 million; I had misheard. The Minister says that the department is consulted. I have talked directly today to some of the key players involved in these transactions, because, of course, they made submissions to the select committee. I wanted to check whether the Government had reached agreement with them on this new provision. In fact, it turns out that it has not. What I want the Minister to respond to is this. The margins involved in these kinds of transactions are obviously not great. If the Government is taking away $16 million in only two deals\u2014the Minister acknowledges that it is only two deals\u2014that predate 20 June 2007, there is no issue about closing this loophole going forward. There is no issue about that at all; the issue relates to the deals already done under existing law pre - 20 June 2007. If the Minister is recovering $16 million from those two deals, there is no question that those deals will be marginal if not put under. Is it right\u2014[Interruption] Dr Cullen shakes his head. He talked to the players involved. They will probably put the deals under. The language they shared with me today was that it will sink the issue. What was the language used? Here it is: I wrote down that this will \u201Cput this deal under water and as a consequence there will be litigation.\u201D I ask the Minister on what basis was this\u2014true depreciation loss is divided by six\u2014arrived at, because some of the players say it will put them under? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMy third question for the Minister relates not to Supplementary Order Paper 167 but to clause 64 in Part 1. There has been no discussion of this tonight. That is the amendment to the fair dividend rate in respect of offshore portfolio investment holdings. This is my question to the Minister. New clause 64, the new majority provision put in by the select committee, has provisions for the commissioner to determine, under subclause (3) the attributing interest for which the fair dividend rate may apply, and under subclause (4) the attributing interest of a person for which the fair dividend rate may not be used. There is a lot of concern about this, and controversy around the fair dividend rate. This is changing the provision somewhat, so my question asks how taxpayers will know specifically what the commissioner declares will be allowed for, as attributing interest for the fair dividend rate provisions, and what will not be allowed for by the commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf the commissioner does not allow certain attributing interests, and the person is a provisional taxpayer, I ask whether people will be caught under the penalty provisions\u2014use of money, interest provisions\u2014through not getting provisional tax payments correct, if they cannot foresee what the commissioner will declare is allowed for the 5 percent fair dividend rate, or is not allowed for the 5 percent fair dividend rate. The provisions here, as I understand them, will allow a higher tax assessment than the 5 percent fair dividend rate. If people, as provisional taxpayers, have based their provisional tax payments on a 5 percent fair dividend rate, and the commissioner says: \u201COh no, this attributing interest will not be allowed for under the 5 percent fair dividend rate; another method has to be used here under the new clause 64(4).\u201D, what happens if that is a higher tax assessment, and people, being significant taxpayers, have paid their provisional tax incorrectly because they could not foresee what the commissioner was going to declare there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAll I am asking is for the Minister to satisfy us that that is not possible, and he could tell us, I guess, that the commissioner will make clear at least a year in advance what payments can be covered by the fair dividend rate and what he will not allow under that rate. As long as that determination is made sufficiently far in advance, I can see that my concerns will not in fact come to bear. But I would appreciate the Minister advising on that, because there is some concern around the industry in this general area. So with those three issues aired, I will let other colleagues follow on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022499f000b082048b5b01f9da9e12d3ba6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022499f000b082048b5b01f9da9e12d3ba6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party rises to oppose the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill in its entirety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI will make some overview points, and I ask first why we are confirming these annual rates. It is clear to everyone in New Zealand, and to the majority of parties in this House, that New Zealanders are overtaxed. It appears to the majority of New Zealanders that this Government has taxed New Zealanders poor and made itself rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt is clear to the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders that they should keep some of their hard-earned tax money, and that they should spend it themselves, rather than allow the Government to accumulate it\u2014particularly heading into an election year, where the Government will spend money, not for a good purpose and not for general welfare, but to secure the extra votes it needs. And why are we confirming the 39c rate? Dr Cullen marched into office in 1999 saying \u201COh well, we will just tax the rich. We will just tax the 5 percent who are earning too much, and we need the extra estimated $400 million to fund what the Labour Party has planned.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa7027eb4c5440fc9bcf8a234829a028\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Superannuation cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffaea8799564ad0bb40debed93fcf9f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I tell Mr Barker that the economy was growing so strongly and tax revenues were so good that that member cannot point to any one year when that extra $400 million was actually needed. He cannot, and he has just admitted that he cannot. That tax was nothing but a \u201Cspite tax\u201D. That is what it was. The money was not needed by the Government, and of course now we find that 12 percent or 13 percent of taxpayers are paying this new \u201Cspite tax\u201D\u2014a tax that was never needed other than to penalise those who earned more than others, those who worked harder than others, and those who had been more successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAlthough we might agree that it is reasonable for people who have earned twice as much as other people to pay twice as much tax, it is hard to see it as reasonable that they should pay three times as much tax, four times as much tax, five times as much tax, or six times as much tax as their neighbour, as readily happens nowadays. More particularly, those taxpayers are the ones who do not put out their hands for help from the State. They are taking out health insurance, they are taking responsibility for their children; and they are working. But I tell the Minister in the chair, Peter Dunne, that they are the ones whom he represents, who do all the work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe find, with a bill like this\u2014and this is something that has been consistent for years and years in New Zealand\u2014that a great swathe of New Zealand has been overtaxed and overlooked. So I do not understand\u2014at all\u2014why we are confirming these tax rates. They are too high. New Zealanders do not want to hear the Hon Michael Cullen talk about tax cuts; they want to see him actually deliver them. Tonight is the night. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4f51c587a1945628a6d6d142e679bbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4f51c587a1945628a6d6d142e679bbb\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to some of the points that have been made. I go first to the comments made by Katrina Shanks about research and development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think it is worth rehearsing where the research and development changes arose. When the Business Tax Review discussion paper was released in 2006 and put out for consultation, a range of options were identified, other than changing the tax rates, in terms of providing assistance to business. Changes to the research and development regime, or a more aggressively attractive research and development regime, came in as the top priority from that consultation process, and that was introduced in this year\u2019s Budget. We have made the point that we are acting cautiously. We are deliberately following some of the lessons learnt from Australia. We are not going to have the pitfalls that they have in some areas, but we are going to be guided by their experience. I take this opportunity of commending to Ms Shanks a speech made by her deputy leader during the second reading of this bill on the issue of research and development that I thought was a remarkably constructive contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs far as the issue of finance leases is concerned, let me go back to what I said in response to the original questions. The exposure, potentially, at the moment is around $92 million. That will be reduced by some $16 million as a result of the measure contained on the Supplementary Order Paper. I indicated earlier that we get into difficult territory here, because there are two individual cases we know of\u2014I underline \u201Cthat we know of\u201D, and I do not want to start being too taxpayer-specific, because I cannot be. However, it is fair to say that since the original Supplementary Order Paper was tabled, officials have consulted all of the affected parties. Consultation does not mean an agreed solution, necessarily, but it does mean that the sentiments that are expressed on the Supplementary Order Paper are seen as a reasonable solution to the difficulty we face. Obviously, others will make a judgment in reaction to those, but it is our responsibility to secure the New Zealand tax base, and also to ensure that we have a robust regime moving forward. I think the changes that are contained on the Supplementary Order Paper, which I can assure Dr Smith have been the subject of wide discussion, provide that pragmatic balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI cannot remember whether it was that member or Pansy Wong\u2014I think it may have been Dr Smith\u2014who raised the issue of accident compensation in the context of the redundancy changes. We can make an argument that accident compensation payments deserve a similar form of treatment, but we could make the same argument in respect of a number of other areas of social policy assistance. The redundancy changes arose as a result of a particular problem. The member\u2019s analysis of the difficulties we face at the moment in terms of redundancy payments earned in a particular year, even though they might be compensation for many years\u2019 work, is entirely accurate. What this bill seeks to do is correct that anomaly. I indicated before that the amendment that his colleague had moved had some technical difficulties; it amended legislation that actually no longer exists. At this stage, we are focusing only on the redundancy change. I think that other issues will have to be considered at another time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFinally, I will make a comment about the changes the member commented on in respect of the fair dividend regime. This is an area of huge technicality, and I will not profess to be sufficiently expert to give him a comprehensive ruling on it. But I will make this point, which I think goes to the heart of the point that he was raising. These changes are intended to be applied prospectively rather than retrospectively. So the issue he was expressing concern about\u2014a square-up being applied by the Commissioner of Inland Revenue in an instance where the taxpayer may have made a wrong call\u2014should not apply. This is a prospective consideration rather than a retrospective one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI also observe, with regard to the fair dividend regime, that only just over a year ago we had a very intense debate in this Chamber about the entire approach to the taxation of offshore investments. All sorts of dire predictions were made as to what would happen on 1 April. I can recall\u2014and I am sure that my colleague the Minister of Finance can recall\u2014the representations we received from a range of investors and investment institutions that the end of the world was nigh. It is interesting that a lot of the prospectuses and correspondence now laud the portfolio investment entity regime that we introduced as being very positive. We are seeing adaptations of those regimes being introduced all the time by various savings entities that are good and positive, and that are benefited by some of the changes that were announced in this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022251ca526e16345d5993dfc8b9f524cd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022251ca526e16345d5993dfc8b9f524cd6\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is good that I follow the Minister, because, regarding the fair dividend tax situation, I was concerned that our tax adviser Robin would be really worried that some form of policy that he had put up had been very handsomely and widely embraced by the financial community. I was wondering whether Robin would want to revisit that matter, with the idea of somehow bringing down a harsher regime because he had been too kind to those people all over the place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI will talk briefly in general terms about a statement that Rodney Hide made versus statements I have read. Whether it is Time magazine, the Bulletin, or whatever the financial literature is that one picks up, it will tell one that around the Western World in the last 10 years the top 5 percent of wealth has never ever in the history of humankind grown at such a rate\u2014never ever. The growth in wealth of the top 5 percent of people in the Western World is absolutely unprecedented. Yet we have National and ACT coming in here and saying that in fact we are taxing those people out of existence\u2014that we are taking away all of the incentives that drive them on to greater productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThat is nothing less than absolute bunkum. Those people have never done as well in the history of humankind as they are doing today. They have never done as well as they are now doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de42af2b97154f8f9d3d0c162c4e9f98\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: In 1999 it was 5 percent; today it\u2019s 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fce69a279604af09ce561dd3f6f317d\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I hope that the people who are listening to this debate can hear that member raving on. He never makes any sensible contributions. He is voting against tax cuts, which National has done consistently since 1960, and he sits there bellyaching on about the difference between 5 percent and 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e077a30c6b6f411e89b1bad58d241cee\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: How about fiscal drag?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9051e7772834a339266cae55090298c\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the fiscal drag! That is a Muldoon term, if ever there was one. Do members remember how Muldoon used to bellyache about fiscal drag? There was a man who did not understand economics, if ever there was one. Contrary to what Rodney Hide was saying, I say the top 5 percent of wealth creators in the Western World have never had it so good in the history of humankind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First support the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill, and we support the tax reductions encompassed within it. We support the KiwiSaver scheme, obviously, because we need to save more in this country\u2014and New Zealand First has said that right the way through for many years. And we support what we see as a return\u2014or a slight dipping of the toe in the water, as Dr Cullen explained it as being\u2014to incentivising the taxation system around research and development. Unlike Katrina Shanks, whom I admire and whose expertise I respect, we in New Zealand First believe that it does make a difference when one gives a tax incentive. It helps when we give a message, in the only meaningful way that matters, that we want people to enhance their businesses and to enhance our industry by adopting better machinery and providing more productive workplace opportunities. The only way to tell them, show them, and encourage them to do that is to give them a tax incentive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI turn to the minority view of the National Party, which is essentially about a philosophical belief it has that personal tax cuts across the board will do something magical to our economy. Personal tax cuts did not do that in America and they have not done it anywhere else where they have been applied, but all of a sudden National believes that they will do wondrous things for New Zealand. That, of course, will be what the debate at the next election is all about. It will be about personal tax cuts versus personal services delivered by the Government, be it in health, in education, or in all the other sorts of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e296e31134a4478f94b98981d359c230\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019re a socialist at heart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ccf3e21a8fa4537838a840dbd28f2fe\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a matter of being a socialist. This legislation is actually a very, very mainstream measure, and only a party that has moved to the extreme right, like the National Party, would suggest that these were left-leaning policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First have said unashamedly that we do not favour across-the-board tax cuts. We support tax cuts that incentivise businesses that export and encourage exports, and we encourage tax cuts like the Working for Families package, which gives money to those who need it and does not reward those who do not need it. That is why we support this bill. That is why we have supported the Labour Government and its support partners through this entire enterprise. We believe it is heading in the right direction, and we are encouraged by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa47325bf0e34658bac57469ac57f75a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa47325bf0e34658bac57469ac57f75a\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E That was Doug Woolerton from New Zealand First, who brought to us his perception of wealth creation among the top 5 percent of wealthy people in the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBut I think we need to be clear about what the debate has been around, I say to Mr Woolerton. It has been around the number of people in New Zealand who have moved into the top tax bracket and who now pay 39 percent. It is no longer just the 5 percent of New Zealanders who were originally there; we have got to the point where 12 to 15 percent of New Zealanders are in that top tax bracket. People in my own electorate and other members\u2019 electorates\u2014teachers and policemen\u2014have moved into that top tax bracket. I ask Mr Woolerton whether they are rich, and whether nurses are rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fbfd30656e4cf6bf5caeac4a36fced\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c56b46772bf4a11a1b9a24133bb950f\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: They are not. Are policemen rich? I believe that they are in the wrong tax bracket. That is what the debate has been about tonight, and that is one of the key reasons that members on this side of the Chamber are not supporting the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is to refer to the Minister in the chair, Peter Dunne, who put on record tonight his reputation around tax cuts. I ask that Minister whether he was in Cabinet on 19 April, when Dr Cullen put up a paper. Clause 23 stated: \u201CTo maintain our commitment to the long term fiscal objectives, I may need to make some adjustments to future budgets. These are likely to be that we do not adjust tax thresholds in the medium term\u201D\u2014meaning in 3, 4, 5 years\u2014\u201Cthereby retaining fiscal drag and potentially allowing tax to GDP ratios to rise slightly\u2026 Accordingly this paper seeks Cabinet\u2019s agreement to rescind our previous decision to adjust income tax thresholds. Within the projection period (ie from 2011/12 onwards)\u201D\u2014so we are looking out a fair way, ladies and gentlemen\u2014\u201Cwe will adjust tax thresholds for inflation, but some portion of fiscal drag might need to be retained to finance our decisions.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair put on record his position on tax. I would suggest that he was part of Cabinet on the day that it signed that particular minute, and I believe that that does not accord with his record on taxation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will finish by making a comment on Dr Paul Swain\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221040f1a26c5497aba70bf03e91e50eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Paul Swain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2ed93824964665adaba796bb47b6e9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, he is a learned member\u2014and some of the comments that he has made tonight. The member wanted to know why National was not supporting the wider taxation provisions, even though parts of the legislation may have some merit. Well, we do not like Labour\u2019s tax policy. We do not like it specifically or generally. We do not like where the economic direction of the country has gone under this Government, and that is why we are not supporting the legislation. If National supported this legislation, it would be the equivalent of our standing up here and supporting the general direction of the Labour Government. We do not buy into Labour\u2019s vision, and on that basis we do not support this legislation. That is the answer the member is looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWe have learnt something tonight, though, with regard to Supplementary Order Paper 167, which Mr Swain is very keen on. It brings about some redundancy payment advantages. I have not looked at the fine print of that Supplementary Order Paper, but I wonder whether there are any lower tax rates for silver platters given as redundancy payments. Mr Swain, who is very learned and has had a long career in Parliament, is moving on to better things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f160b7a9e2884f2ba6babc2a78f79661\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: In that case you get 3 months\u2019 severance pay when you lose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226561280115fa4b7a8d23cb6ad09411c8\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member; I will be looking forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ba48b34671436bbf07184751ac31e5\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he standing against you in Napier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f6caf86e8647acac686a0bf7b68b82\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: He is not standing against me in Napier. We put that challenge out there, but Dr Cullen would not take it up. He was quoted in the newspaper as saying that Labour would be choosing an excellent candidate in the seat of Napier, that that candidate would have his 100 percent support, and that that candidate would win Napier in the next election. It will be interesting to see whether the candidate who was chosen was the candidate whom Dr Cullen was actually thinking about at the time. Never mind; that remains to be seen. But I am not being arrogant about it; it will be a hard campaign in Napier, and I am looking forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022825bb3264d624bb5ae88108e3fabebc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022825bb3264d624bb5ae88108e3fabebc1\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Labour\u2014Taupo):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022193273a4c60c4eb18c236b82d5d605bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b425ce4829d4c9a8162e736aaf4eed7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of Pansy Wong to insert new clause 85C is out of order as it was lodged with fewer than 24 hours\u2019 notice and may have an impact on the Government\u2019s fiscal aggregates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 167 and 168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d2783adca1c463694d0122b21808c01\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243c76faaccfb44f7bf729c573c007335\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242e943a88779459cb92f9f48eec8d1e4\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002296a66160b62e489499115dd3aea9b51c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296a66160b62e489499115dd3aea9b51c\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill refers to amendments to the Tax Administration Act 1994. Before I get into the detail, I have to say that I hope the Government has a serious look at the Tax Administration Act 1994. It is a shambles. It is an absolute shambles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c158437b6984465e8252e826e7b464d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a National Party Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe47471d96ab4cfd9f47c2fc9aaaf55e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a shambles because of the provisions of 1994; the problem is that the Act has been amended so many times since that time that any practitioner would require a PhD to find his or her way around it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcad004bb324c1bb3a80088563229a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve got a PhD\u2014no problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c514c042174c2e86ecd248d2257930\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the Minister he should try to find his way around that particular Act. It is just a shambles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does, though, is deal with some of the compliance and penalties provisions in that Tax Administration Act. There are three particular issues that the Opposition wants to focus on. One relates to the issues around unacceptable tax positions. They start with clause 184. Then there is an issue around voluntary disclosure provisions. They are particularly relevant to clause 188. Then there is an issue in relation to simple mistakes or errors made in the filing of tax returns. The clause that most closely relates to that is clause 191.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI will start with the unacceptable tax position provisions. If we look at the commentary made by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we see that what the select committee has to say is quite revealing. The select committee heard a number of submissions on this issue. Before I go on to discuss what the select committee said, let me make very clear what the provisions in this bill do in respect of unacceptable tax positions. The unacceptable tax position provisions have caused a real problem for taxpayers. Back in 2006 an attempt was made to remedy that problem, to give the Commissioner of Inland Revenue discretion to not apply tax penalties when certain unacceptable tax positions were taken, because it would simply be unfair to do so. But the problem was not fixed. The effort in 2006 to fix the problem did not fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat this bill is doing\u2014and I move specifically to the provision\u2014in clause 184 is clarifying the position in respect of unacceptable tax positions. It makes it clear that where the new international financial reporting standards lead to someone developing an unacceptable tax position, that person will not be penalised for that, which is quite proper. Most particularly, clause 184(2) makes very clear that, from now on, unacceptable tax positions can apply only to income tax and the tax shortfall arising from the taxpayer\u2019s position, and it sets out the thresholds. What that subclause is doing is making it very clear that the unacceptable tax position provisions can no longer apply to GST or to withholding tax payments. What is interesting about this is that the Government has recognised that the attempts to fix up the unacceptable tax position provisions in 2006 did not work adequately. I believe that that is why the Government is now making it very clear that, in fact, GST filings and withholding tax filings are no longer covered by the unacceptable tax position provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf we go from there to the select committee\u2019s report, we see that the issue now becomes the date on which this new clarification applies. The select committee commentary states that the majority believe: \u201CThe amendments to the unacceptable tax position penalty in the bill have not been made retrospective because the discretion enacted in 2006 (and repealed in this bill) was backdated to 1 April 2003. The majority of us consider that this dealt with the cases where the imposition of that penalty may have been unfair.\u201D What is inconsistent about that comment made by the majority of the select committee is that if the changes made in 2006 had fixed the problem, we would not need the amendment now being made to clause 184. We would not need further clarification that GST and withholding tax payments are no longer covered by the unacceptable tax provision penalties. If, in fact, we need clause 184(2) to make clear that those unacceptable tax position provisions will not apply to GST and withholding tax, why can we not, in the interests of fairness, backdate it? The majority of the select committee said that backdating should be unnecessary because the issue had been fixed in 2006, and there was discretion for the commissioner to deal with the issue back to 2003. If that were correct, we would not need this subclause. The fact that we have got this subclause shows that the issue was not fixed in 2006, and therefore this subclause should be backdated to avoid any doubt that issues to do with GST and withholding tax payments are not covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI have put an amendment before the Committee to amend clause 184(3). It backdates it to at least 2006. I accept that maybe the fiscal consequences of backdating it to 2003 could be significant, but there should be some backdating to at least recognise that the 2006 effort to fix this issue failed. If it did not fail, we would not be doing this provision now. That effort did not produce the outcome expected by this Parliament; therefore, it should be reasonable to backdate this remedial legislation to at least the time that we tried to fix it, and that was 2006. That is why I have laid an amendment on the Table to backdate this provision\u2014to have it apply from 1 April 2006 instead of from 1 April 2008. It does not take it right back to 2003; it takes it back to when this Parliament tried to fix it up but failed to do so. That is why it is being fixed up now\u2014because last time round the House did not achieve the outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat the practitioners, the professionals, tell us is this: although the Inland Revenue Department policy people were supportive of the change, although the policy people advised that the changes made in 2006 would pick it up, Inland Revenue Department operations did not deliver what this Parliament had expected to be delivered by those 2006 amendments. That is why clause 184(2) is required, and it should be backdated to 2006 to make sure that what this Parliament intended in 2006 is now delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is the first issue in respect of Part 2 that the Opposition wants to cover. There will be other issues, but that is the particular provision in respect of the unacceptable tax position. I want to make clear\u2014and I am sure this speech will be called to an end very soon\u2014that the other key issues relate to clause 188. That clause is in respect of voluntary disclosure of tax shortfalls. Again, we previously tried to fix that up. Everyone in Parliament agrees that it is really important to encourage voluntary disclosure, because in that way we collect more revenue. I want to come back to that clause, because I think that, with its current wording, we are not going to get voluntary disclosure to the extent that we should. The Opposition wants to put forward further debate on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe other part in Part 2 that I give notice we want to focus on is clause 191, which repeals section 141KB. Section 141KB deals with only section 141B of the principal Act. Section 141A deals with simple mistakes made by people filing tax returns. I want to come back to the issue, which I think is very real, that where people make simple mistakes they should not be penalised. There are issues around clause 191. There is a classic example, which I should mention, where a person filed a tax return, used the wrong return to file it, paid the right money, and was penalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211d225f8e4cd784c6488b53ca98606b8bf000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269faffb17bc545a09692a5e6634207eb\u0022\u003ETuesday, 11 December 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e2d3e8bf29f4b27a37d00cb3e249b4f\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 12 December 2007)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0d80670a74748358693491530af4d4f\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269928826d18d4b72b9f96f3228090574\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022435b2247259647e98e37e76168d93eea\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00223b175b2bf4784a0baa504155ef6695f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b175b2bf4784a0baa504155ef6695f3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2, as I mentioned when we were heading towards closure last night, covers the amendments to the Tax Administration Act 1994. The main set of issues in Part 2 in respect of that Act relates to compliance, and this is obviously very important, because New Zealand\u2019s tax system relies on voluntary compliance. We do not have a huge army of inspectors out there going around inspecting all employers to see that they are complying with our income tax requirements in relation to PAYE, or to our GST requirements. As a PAYE taxpayer and a GST taxpayer, I do my own returns. One does get checked from time to time, but the system essentially relies on voluntary compliance and therefore on a certain amount of goodwill, because it is impossible to check every taxpayer. That is where the provisions in Part 2 are so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere are three clauses in Part 2 that in particular cause concern. The first of them I mentioned last night\u2014and I will not go over it in full detail again this morning\u2014is clause 184, \u201CUnacceptable tax position\u201D. I mentioned last night that in 2006 Parliament tried to fix this problem. Parliament accepted that the way in which the unacceptable tax position provisions were applied was unreasonable, unfair, and in fact did not lead to sensible voluntary compliance with our law. So in 2006 Parliament amended the law to try to give the commissioner the opportunity not to impose unacceptable tax position penalties on people where it was unreasonable. The net outcome of that was unsatisfactory. We did not succeed in 2006 in fixing up the unacceptable tax position provisions. So subsection (2) in clause 184(2) makes it very clear that GST and withholding tax payments will henceforth be excluded from unacceptable tax position provisions, leaving only income tax in there, and the thresholds are changed for income tax to try to make that a little more fair, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut the key issue I was referring to last night is that clause 184(3) makes these new provisions come in from 1 April 2008. National is arguing that this is unreasonable. They should be backdated to when Parliament tried to fix the problem before. If we believe that in fact our effort to fix it in 2006 did not work, we should fix it now and backdate it to when Parliament wanted the change. Parliament wanted the change in 2006, so the amendment I have tabled amends clause 184(3) to replace 1 April 2008 with 1 April 2006 to make this clarifying provision come in from when Parliament intended it should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI covered that in detail last night, so I will go on to the next issue, which relates to clause 188, \u201CReduction in penalty for voluntary disclosure of tax shortfall\u201D. Again, this is very important, because, as I said, our system relies on voluntary compliance. Therefore, it is really important that taxpayers, when they realise they have done something wrong, actually tell the Inland Revenue Department that they got it wrong, that they disclose to the department they made a mistake, and that they pay the additional tax required. That way we collect more revenue. It is really important that when people make these voluntary disclosures they do not get penalised for it, because if they get excessively penalised for it, they will not do it; they will try to cover up their mistakes and get away without paying the extra tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe issue here is that clause 188 reduces the penalties for voluntary disclosure, and that is good; we all agree with that. But again the provision is coming in from 17 May 2007, and all the professionals feel that, again, because we tried to deal with this unsatisfactorily in 2006, it should be backdated to when Parliament tried to fix this problem and failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo there are two key clauses in relation to which Parliament tried to fix the problem last year and it is accepted that we failed because the legislation is back in the House now. We are actually trying to fix up what we tried to fix last year, because when we tried to fix it last year it did not work. In the meantime, people have been caught through the commissioner not applying the law in the way Parliament expected that the commissioner would. We expected the commissioner to do certain things, but it did not happen. Hence, I have put forward these two amendments to backdate these provisions to when Parliament intended that the change should happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00220caa635157434bafadfd6390c36b2780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220caa635157434bafadfd6390c36b2780\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call to respond to the points that have just been made, because I think the spin that has been placed on the events of the last couple of years by Dr Smith does not accurately reflect the position. Let me rehearse the situation as it occurred, and I speak with some long-term interest in this, having been the Minister of Revenue at the time the original voluntary disclosure, disputes, and penalties regime was put in place, over a decade ago. When I returned to this portfolio after the last election, the issue of the way in which the voluntary disclosure rules and unacceptable position rules were working was raised with me. The upshot was that in a similar piece of legislation to this last year, I introduced what I said at the time was an interim measure\u2014that we would work on a detailed solution, which is the solution contained in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo I do not accept the proposition that what we did then we are now correcting because it had not worked. What we did then was put in place an interim solution, recognising all the way through that a more detailed solution would emerge, and that solution is contained in this bill. The consequence of that in terms of the commencement dates, aside from any administrative complexity that going back to 2006 might give rise to, is that the dates more appropriately take effect from the time of the passage of this legislation, or, in relation to the provisions of clause 188, from the time of the Budget announcement in May this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that Dr Smith has put forward his amendments, and I acknowledge the fact that he had the courtesy to come and discuss those with me sometime yesterday. I appreciate that. I had officials consider those amendments and give me some advice about them, and we are satisfied that a couple of issues arise. Firstly, there are practical difficulties with the timing change; there are revenue implications that are potentially significant. The second issue is that we are not persuaded that the situations he sets out, in particular with regard to clause 188, are in fact desirably changed by legislation or not even provided for in the current provisions. So we are not disposed to support those amendments, but I acknowledge the way in which he brought them forward and I appreciate the fact that he had the courtesy to alert me to them in advance and enable us to give some consideration to them. But I put on record that the genesis of this is not a recognition that what we did last year failed; the genesis of this is that what we did last year was to say that there was an interim regime pending the development of more final rules, which are given effect to in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00228b7f78d00b3b4ef8b089e76cdba76269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b7f78d00b3b4ef8b089e76cdba76269\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I take the opportunity in this urgency debate to speak to Part 2. This part specifically deals with amendments to the Tax Administration Act 1994. I want to use my 5 minutes to ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, about the way in which this policy will be introduced, particularly in respect of clause 175, with the insertion of section 139AAA and the new proposals around the late filing penalty for GST returns. I know that it is a matter of some interest, or more than some interest, for many constituents around the nation. I know that Parekura Horomia\u2019s constituents throughout his electorate will be interested in this particular issue, and I look forward to the Minister taking a call about the late filing penalty for GST returns. M\u0101ori businesses and P\u0101keh\u0101 businesses will be impacted by this, will they not, Mr Parekura?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227476fa2e5fda4bce9ab5451f9983c1ca\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Parekura!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baedf10df8414e0c8c24302a0b40c6e0\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Horomia. They will be impacted by it. Many small businesses around this country deal with taxation and the taxman. They know that dealing with taxation\u2014the filing of GST returns, fringe benefit tax returns, PAYE returns, resident withholding tax, and provisional tax\u2014creates large compliance costs for them in terms of getting their returns done. The key issue is whether we are creating a regime that will enhance the provision of these returns or will exacerbate the provision of these returns. That is the point I am making. Although we write into legislation the particular penalties that may accrue here, we are actually changing the system quite dramatically from what it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn clause 175, which inserts section 139AAA into the Tax Administration Act, we are changing the system so that a business that is working on an invoice basis will be charged $250 if it has a late return. If it is working on a payments basis, or on more of a cash basis, then it will be charged $50 for the late filing of a return. This is particularly in relation to GST. That changes the system somewhat from what it is currently. Those late filing charges have not been placed on taxpayers when they put in their returns, but there has been an assessment of the revenue that would be taken. In that regard the Inland Revenue Department has not been lenient\u2014\u201Clenient\u201D would probably not be the correct term\u2014but it has been helpful. I know of certain situations where businesses\u2014for example, my own business\u2014have put in tax returns and for one reason or another they may have been late. Often in small businesses that happens accidentally, not because there is any purpose to try to defraud the department. I remember one time when on holiday, I asked someone else to do a particular return for me and it was just never done. In those situations the department has been lenient and has come back and allowed us to put in the return, as long as it was within a particular time. With these fines, we will see a fine of $250 or $150\u2014whack! This will happen as soon as a business is late in putting in a return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI just want to know from a policy point of view how the department will deal with those late returns. I know that small businesses around the nation will be interested in this matter. Minister Horomia\u2019s constituents will be interested in it as well, so I ask the Minister in the chair, Peter Dunne, to take a call on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI guess the key point I am making is that although we may relax penalty regimes or change them to encourage compliance and try to decrease compliance costs, it will do nothing if the Inland Revenue Department is pernicious in throwing these fines into place and starts getting small businesses\u2019 backs up. These people pay most of the tax in this country. Not only do they pay provisional tax, fringe benefit tax, and GST but also they employ the majority of people in this country. Those employees pay a significant proportion of tax in this country, and on that basis it is very important that the Inland Revenue Department stays onside with small businesses. They are a key part of our nation, and that is why I am asking how the department will deal with the situation where a return is late. Will it be Draconian in the implementation of the $250 fee for a person working on an invoice basis, and will it be hard on a taxpayer on the $50 basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u002216cedafce74c419bbd17b8719ae4527f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216cedafce74c419bbd17b8719ae4527f\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure once again to speak on Part 2 of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. When looking at this bill, we see it is a very, very comprehensive bill. The thing we have to think about when putting together legislation like this is that we should be putting together legislation that is streamlined, that is in accordance with all the other tax legislation, and that flows nicely, instead of putting together piecemeal legislation that will then create complexities for the people who use it. Although the Inland Revenue Department gives out booklets to guide business people and anybody else who has to use this type of legislation, at the end of the day there has been a history of those booklets having errors in them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe electoral funding legislation is an example of a situation where the Electoral Commission put out booklets telling people about its summary of that legislation and how it would impact on their lives and their returns, only to find its interpretation was different from the law. The commissioner\u2019s interpretation was different from the law itself. The onus is on the person concerned to go back and understand the law and not to rely on those booklets, which are guideline booklets for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EMy concern is that this tax legislation is very, very complex, and we cannot really expect Joe Bloggs on the street, the dairy owner, the owner of the chemist shop, or the person who owns the garden centre, people who are really busy in their businesses, to go ahead and read this legislation because they cannot rely on the guidance provided by the Inland Revenue Department in the booklets that it gives out. At the end of the day, the onus is on people who are filling out returns to get things right themselves and to understand the legislation. So it is very important that we try to keep the tax legislation as streamlined as we can, because it does impact on most New Zealanders. It is important that it is not complex. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI become concerned when I see big bits of legislation\u2014and the legislation before us is massive\u2014and also big Supplementary Order Papers around the legislation. That means that maybe the legislation has not had as much discussion as it should have had, if there are such big Supplementary Order Papers supporting it. I would like to think that discussion is available. For example, there was obviously not enough discussion around the finance lease provisions of this legislation when it was put out. I am hoping that the Government has a good strategic view on that issue, and that we have a vision for where we want to be with regard to taxes in the future and a view on whether this legislation is a good vehicle to take us to where we want to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI would like to talk specifically to one measure in Part 2 of this legislation today: new section 34B inserted by clause 153, which is about tax agents. Tax agents play an extremely important role in terms of getting people\u2019s tax returns right to begin with, and also in ensuring that if they get them right, then the Government and the Inland Revenue Department are maximising their net revenue because they know they are capturing all the revenue they should get. As time has gone on, tax agents have become more and more important in our society, as the tax legislation has become more and more complex. Now, the onus is on those accountants\u2014it is normally chartered accountants who are tax agents; that is not always the case, but quite commonly they are chartered accountants\u2014to have a good understanding of this legislation. Also, they are now accountable for the returns that they put in. If people represent themselves as tax agents and as professionals, they are liable, I do believe, for any errors in those tax returns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003ESo when we are talking about penalties, I say it is important that this legislation gets the provisions on tax agents and the listing of tax agents absolutely right. The legislation states in new section 34B(2), inserted by clause 153, who can be a tax agent. It can be a person who \u201C(a) prepares the returns of income required to be furnished for 10 or more taxpayers; and \u2026 a practitioner carrying on a professional public practice\u201D. A person providing that information also has to update the commissioner about the changes around him or herself. The Law Society has brought out a really good submission on clause 153, where it talked about its issues in relation to that. When it talked about new sections 34B(2)(b) and 43B(12)(c), it talked about the Tax Administration Act and how it should apply to the size of an organisation, so that the obligation to provide an updated list of partners or members is relaxed in the case of organisations over a particular size. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EIn big organisations where a tax lawyer or a tax accountant does the returns for that big organisation, or in a chartered accountancy practice where returns are being done for many, many organisations, there can be a very high turnover in staff in the organisations themselves where those people work. Part of the requirement here is for the tax agent to provide details of shareholders of closely held companies, partners in partnerships, and members of unincorporated entities. It may not be appropriate in all cases to go back to the commissioner and keep on telling the commissioner about the changes in those organisations. In some instances, changes could be occurring nearly weekly. That is a massive administration nightmare for some of the big organisations. It is also another form of cost for the people who use those organisations, because every time the organisation fills out a new form more time is spent on doing administration, the cost of which is then passed on to the clients. That is particularly the case in large partnerships, where partner turnover is such that lists of partners would be required to be updated several times a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe submission from the Law Society pointed out that maybe we should include a size threshold in new section 34B(12), or enable the commissioner to dispense with those requirements in certain cases, having regard to the size of the organisation. When looking at tax agents, I think it is important to see the whole range that is offered there. We need to have provisions in this legislation that do not make it more onerous on those tax agents, moving forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe other area that the Law Society talked about was the type of foreign investment fund and the determination on the type of interest in foreign investment funds and the use of the fair dividend rate model. That is in clause 165 of the bill, which seeks to repeal sections 91AAO(2) and 91AAO(3) of the Tax Administration Act 1994 and to repeal their effect on a retrospective basis. In this clause we are talking about a retrospective basis going back to 2006. That is a long way to go back in legislation, considering we are coming into 2008. Section 91AAO(2) provides the principles by which the commissioner would be guided when issuing determinations as to the availability of the fair dividend rate model. The society disagreed with the proposal to repeal that provision, though it did accept that there might be an alternative form to amend it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe repeal of that provision would allow the commissioner to determine whether the fair dividend rate method applied to an investment, without giving taxpayers any basis for reviewing that decision. The commissioner would not be required to follow the published criteria. If criteria were published, there would be an amendment as the commissioner saw fit. If the fair dividend rate method has any validity, then the principles as to when it does and does not apply must be capable of expression. Those principles should be expressed in section 91AAO(2) of the Tax Administration Act, so that the commissioner is not left to make and change the law in that area at his or her own discretion and without principled guidance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI think it is also important to look at the penalties around people when they are doing their voluntary tax, because tax is voluntary. As my good friend beside me Chris Tremain from Napier said, many, many people do make stupid mistakes, and normally they are just stupid mistakes\u2014they are an error. It is really important to allow the Inland Revenue Department to keep having some discretion, so it can go in and say someone is a good taxpayer, and it knows he or she has made a mistake. The inputs may have been put in the outputs and the outputs in the inputs by mistake, because the schedule was accidentally upside down in the spreadsheet when the taxpayer was compiling it. Many people do that. Many people do not have accounting systems in their small businesses, and they run things off spreadsheets all the time. It is easy to look at a revenue line and an expenditure line, and to put inputs and outputs in the wrong way around. It is actually really, really simple to do that in a small business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5bf14aceaf44b53a357613804dcbd2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5bf14aceaf44b53a357613804dcbd2e\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the welcome from those members on the other side, and I would like to note that we are under urgency at the moment. The only good thing about urgency is it gets the members on the other side of the Chamber to work before lunchtime. I say good morning to Mr Swain, in particular, and I am sure my fellow Finance and Expenditure Committee members will comment on that one later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EPart 2 deals with the nuts and bolts of this legislation, although as I noted last night it is a moving feast. I presume it will not change much from the version for which we have had notice in total of not even 12 hours yet, which, as I have noted, quite frankly I find a disgrace and not a good look for Parliament at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EPart 2 talks about tax credits, tax rebates, etc., and I think it is important to note two things. The attraction of a tax credit, a tax rebate, be it a research and development credit or be it a rebate, as mentioned in Parts 1 and 3 and on Supplementary Order Paper 167, is that the higher the tax burden the more attractive are rebates and credits, and special favours. As previous speakers have noted around various bills covering KiwiSaver, taxation, etc., many submitters to the Finance and Expenditure Committee are now saying essentially \u201Cme too\u201D because they would like a share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI think it is important also to note that the Inland Revenue Department has had a lot to do with the formulation of this bill, and it will be administering it, and the Minister of Revenue is in the Chamber, and to note two of the key points of the \u201Cdesired future\u201D of the department. The second major point\u2014and there are five of them\u2014is that the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s desired future is: \u201CWe make it easy for customers to get it right and hard to get it wrong.\u201D Well, after I do not know how many pages of a bill, plus the Supplementary Order Papers, I think that is around the wrong way at the moment. The redundancy rebate was announced yesterday\u2014in fact, the Minister himself talked about a simpler, less complex regime. Essentially he argued for a flat tax on redundancy payments, but we will talk more about that in Part 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI also note that Dr Lockwood Smith\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers tried to address issues where that regime is not made easy. Also, the fifth point in the \u201Cdesired future\u201D of the Inland Revenue Department states: \u201CWe are professional, approachable, effective and efficient.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI have talked about a few of the clauses in Part 2, particularly clause 147, which is about the keeping of business records. The majority voted for a change to the heading to section 22 in the principal Act, from \u201Cbusiness records\u201D to \u201Cbusiness and other records\u201D. On a first look, that is fair enough. Perhaps it is a modernisation. It is a different way of keeping records, or is it spreading the tax matrix even wider and higher and longer and deeper? In fact, what are \u201Cother records\u201D? To me, that reads as: \u201CJust hand over any, all, and total information about your relationship.\u201D, particularly as it concerns superannuation contribution resident withholding tax rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWe have had a recent example of the Inland Revenue Department putting the onus on and increasing the cost structure\u2014and the Minister touched on it before\u2014around the fair dividend rate changes of last year. He mentioned that there were worries at the time, that the earth was going to freeze over, etc. Actually, the costs have gone up because the onus there was that the record keeping had to go back to the year dot in order to claim the $50,000 de minimis for the various fair dividend rate issues in the earlier taxation bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EClause 147C, which inserts a new section 28B into the principal Act, again puts the onus further down the track, where the investor again changes to the portfolio investment entity regime: \u201CInvestor to advise portfolio tax rate entity of investor\u2019s tax file number\u201D. Again, on the face of it, most people accept that. I think it is on our bank statements now. But, actually, must we do that? There are already provisions. There is a 45c tax rate to be charged if people do not do that\u2014it is the non-declared tax rate and tax code. I do not quite understand why that might be there. Perhaps there is a simple answer and the Minister could address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002200e835339bb94e9692e011c511d1f93b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e835339bb94e9692e011c511d1f93b\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond briefly to a couple of the questions that have been raised. I want to go back to Dr Smith\u2019s comments earlier. I have now received some information about the interim measures that were put in place over the last year, which he may be interested in. I am advised that since the legislation was passed last year, the commissioner has received some 604 applications not to apply penalties, and of those 604 applications 393 have been agreed to. That is about two-thirds in the year to June 2007. It is clear, contrary to the assertion that has been made, that the interim measures actually have worked out extremely well. If two-thirds of the applications for relief have been agreed to, then I think that is a pretty high hit rate. I think it sets a good platform for the changes that are contained in the current bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMr Tremain asked some interesting and valuable questions about the new GST filing rules. Just to refresh the point on this, I note that we are moving from a system where at the moment effectively a penalty is applied to the principal outstanding to one where in certain circumstances a fee of either $50 or $250 becomes payable. The concern he was raising was related to how arbitrary the application of those fees would be. In other words, could we have a situation where at the moment, under the current regime, that amount might be added to principal and take some time to be resolved but a flat regime of specified amounts could apply immediately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to assure the member of a couple of things. Firstly, the way this regime will work in practice is that where a taxpayer clearly is in error through the employer monthly schedule, then the Inland Revenue Department will advise that person that the GST payment is late and that subsequent breaches will be penalised. The late filing penalty will be imposed on any returns that are filed late in the 12 months following that first breach. So if all the returns are on time, then the process kicks off next time around. So I want to assure him that the concern he expressed, as I understood it, related to whether the removal of the current regime and its replacement with a flat fee would mean that people would simply be stung like an instant traffic fine. The answer is no. They will receive a warning, and if there is a breach for the second time within that 12-month period, then those fees will apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI again want to make the point that this change is really designed to simplify the process, to make it easier for people to comply, and to get away from a situation where the way in which the current rules apply often means that the debt imposed is much greater than simply having a fee regime. But we are not going to turn the Inland Revenue Department in this instance into a set of GST traffic cops who go around stinging those who fail to meet that first date. There will be that warning period, then the follow-up if the breach is repeated within the 12-month period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00229d6995a6a380454b913d0320e935ccac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d6995a6a380454b913d0320e935ccac\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the advice the Minister has just given us about the situation in respect of unacceptable tax positions and shortfall penalties. But I might say to this Committee that the concern about backdating the provisions in this bill is not just something that the Opposition has dreamt up. There are many in the profession who believe it should be backdated to 2003, and National has simply said that that is unreasonable and that we should go back to when we tried to fix it up. I accept what the Minister has said\u2014that the effort to fix it up last year has improved the position for many taxpayers. But this is a balance of the Government\u2019s desire to keep maximum revenue and its responsibility to be fair to taxpayers. The changes that are made in this bill are designed to try to make the system more fair to taxpayers, and it therefore should be accepted that what will be left now from 2003 on\u2014but we suggest backdating it to only 2006\u2014is that there will be some taxpayers left who will be treated unfairly by the way this Parliament sees this situation today. That is not right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to go on because we are running out of time, I sense. My most important amendment is in fact to clause 191. If we look at clause 191 we see it looks very simple. It is simply headed: \u201CSection 141KB repealed\u201D. So it is important that members understand what section 141KB is in the existing Act. What section 141KB is all about is that it gives the commissioner discretion to cancel some shortfall penalties. That was the provision we brought in to try to deal with some of these problems. But what section 141KB gave the commission to do was to deal with issues covered by section 141B. Now, section 141B is the section that deals with unacceptable tax positions. So what is being repealed here is section 141KB, which gave the commissioner discretion to deal with what were considered to be unacceptable tax positions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe amendment I want to make is this: none of the provisions in this bill deal with simple mistakes. It is what my good colleague Katrina Shanks was talking about. She is an experienced person in this area, and she knows that people filing tax returns can make simple mistakes. Let me give the Committee an example of what I mean. Some taxpayers pay the correct amount of tax, but file the wrong tax return. They have made a mistake. According to the tax returns filed they have not paid the correct tax, because according to the return they were meant to have filed they have paid no tax. Those taxpayers have paid all the tax they should have paid but filed the wrong return, so that cannot be recognised as the correct tax paid. What happens? The taxpayer gets penalised for making a mistake\u2014in fact, the correct terminology is \u201Cnot taking reasonable care\u201D\u2014which is covered in section 141A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMy amendment to clause 191 simply retains the title of section 141KB\u2014\u201CDiscretion to cancel some shortfall penalties\u201D, and would enable the commissioner to deal with unfairness in both unacceptable tax positions and not taking reasonable care\u2014in other words, deal with issues that arise under sections 141B and 141A of the existing Act. My amendment would enable the commissioner to use the discretion when faced with a clear mistake\u2014when someone has paid the full amount of tax owing, yet has done something wrong technically. The officials look a bit puzzled. The Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand is deeply concerned about this, not just Lockwood Smith. The institute is concerned, because it sees this happening amongst its members all the time. People make these simple mistakes, and although they have paid the correct amount of tax, they are penalised. Is that fair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI really put it to the Minister, and urge the Committee, to give full consideration to the amendment that I have placed on the Table. All it would do is give the commissioner the discretion to not impose shortfall penalties where it is obvious that a mistake has been made. The Government has all its revenue. If the Committee says that it will not accept my amendment because it would have fiscal implications and that it was lodged with less than 24 hours\u2019 notice, I would argue that that decision was not valid because the amendment just gives the commissioner the right to exercise discretion. The Government is not going to lose any revenue. A technical mistake might have been made, but at the moment the commissioner cannot deal with that issue in a fair manner. I urge that my amendment be given consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022864bb5cf0b5745aca78733fa7725e163\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022864bb5cf0b5745aca78733fa7725e163\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00224aedd4bef3da4d13bdef03a22ca73952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aedd4bef3da4d13bdef03a22ca73952\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak to two other clauses in Part 2\u2014first to clause 173 and then to clause 184, which talks about the International Financial Reporting Standards. Clause 173 deals with provisional tax and rules on the use of money interest. There is always discussion about this, but in particular this provision looks at the rules around the use of money interest\u2014that is, when there are excess funds at the Inland Revenue Department, the department has use of funds. At the moment it pays a credit rate of, I think, 6.5 percent, or, if the taxpayer supposedly has moneys due, he or she has use of the funds owed and is charged something like 13 or 14 percent\u2014about a 7 percent spread. So that is a 7 percent spread between the money that is owed to a taxpayer and stays at the Inland Revenue Department and the money that it is essentially lending to the taxpayer. Any bank or financial institution would give its right arm, its left arm, and probably both its legs to have an interest rate spread between deposits and loans of over 7 percent. That is absolutely outrageous. I think the term there is \u201Cusury\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere has been much commentary, even from members on the other side and from the smaller parties, on the unfairness of charging interest rates like that and actually driving people into further debt, borrowing to pay the borrowings to pay the borrowings. The amendments proposed by my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith try to address some of the issues that bring people into that position. Again I will quote from the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s desired future details: \u201CSociety has confidence that appropriate action will be taken against customers who do not apply.\u201D That also implies that those customers who are doing the right thing and pay the right money at the right time, but perhaps tick the wrong box in the form they send in, also need to know there is good faith on the part of the Inland Revenue Department. I would be interested to hear the comments of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, on the good-faith ambitions of the Inland Revenue Department and whether it will be addressing the difference between its borrowing rate and its lending rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EClause 184, as Dr Lockwood Smith touched on earlier, talks about the unacceptable tax position. Towards the end of clause 184 is an explanation of what does and does not put someone in an unacceptable tax position. Interestingly, it talks about the International Financial Reporting Standards, which have been recently adopted. I believe that there is such a thing as the New Zealand version of the International Financial Reporting Standards. Is that deliberate or is it just to internationalise it? We have asked Treasury about this quite a few times at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and even the Government accounts have been reproduced under the New Zealand Financial Reporting Standards as opposed to the International Financial Reporting Standards. I apologise to the many listeners out there who think that this may sound like gobbledygook, but, sadly, this is taxation law. Even Landcorp in its annual report suggested that the International Financial Reporting Standards made a mockery of its reporting, etc. So Landcorp cannot understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI believe that in a recent paper Treasury said it was looking to readdress the necessity of the New Zealand Financial Reporting Standards, or at least how it was created and measured against the International Financial Reporting Standards and whether it was having a desired outcome for New Zealand. In many instances the fluctuations in their profit and loss accounting, and, therefore, their tax obligations, were flying around all over the place and not giving a solid and transparent report to whomever their agents might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere is one other clause in here that we discussed at the select committee\u2014and I apologise for not finding it right at the moment\u2014but the Minister or the officials may remember it. It addresses KiwiSaver and refers to KiwiSaver members being able to forgo interest in relation to funds at the Inland Revenue Department or, I believe, at some entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4624d2293ce4f299a0f51ab02e15ab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4624d2293ce4f299a0f51ab02e15ab9\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002242fea220801c4fe09e325ed61fc22bac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242fea220801c4fe09e325ed61fc22bac\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on this bill because when we talk about the implication of putting penalties on people who do not file GST or other returns, simply for the sake of having a mandatory penalty, it smacks of a Labour - United Future - Progressive Government that has no comprehension of what it is actually like to be in business. These people have never been in business. They have probably never filed a GST return\u2014apart from for a union. For them to now put in a mandatory penalty just for the sake of it shows their comprehension of what it is like for the people who actually earn the money that pays the wages of those members, who sit on that side of the Chamber and tell them what to do through tax bills such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Minister has come back and made a valid point that there will be some discretion within the 12-month period, and that people\u2019s history in relation to the filing of returns will be looked at. That is fair enough. That is what happens now. The Inland Revenue Department looks at people\u2019s history of filing returns. If they have a history of being a good filer of tax returns, then it will sometimes waive the penalty, let them get away with it, and say they made a mistake. That would be the appropriate approach, and the department does that now. It looks back over the past year at one\u2019s filing history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhat is the purpose of putting on a $50 mandatory filing fee? Why put on a $50 or $250 mandatory fee for people who fail to file on time? The only purpose can be that the Government wants to sting hard-working employers in this country. It wants to hold business back and it wants to increase compliance costs\u2014to be the bane of hard-working New Zealand business people, basically. The Labour Government wants to restrict and compromise the ability of those people to carry on their own approach in their businesses. There is no need for an extra filing fee for late filing. The Inland Revenue Department still can use discretion, and that should be sufficient. There is no need at all for these fees. The Government should take a call on this issue and explain why it wants to introduce these fees. There is no good rationale to do so. It is merely another attempt to put more compliance costs on to small business, and it shows that the Government lacks any comprehension of what it is like to have a small business and have to file GST and other returns on a compulsory basis over a number of months in a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI encourage the Minister to take a call and explain the rationale for introducing these fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002216bf3b779e8e4007b55f361850e2b0ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216bf3b779e8e4007b55f361850e2b0ee\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith to clauses 184, 188, and 191 are out of order because there may be an impact on the fiscal aggregates, and they were lodged with less than 24 hours\u2019 notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to the proposed amendment to clause 151(4) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 168 in his name be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto number the paragraph being inserted after section 33A(2)(d) as \u201C(db)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220ea869239329418db3b6b889d65ed5f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000064\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Papers 167 and 168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e129b0dde067497cb744ec4c2de70e42\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022282e863d77384e04aabb96e6732f1b5c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8807574cc0f4ec4a834e910ce37b77d\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to other Acts and Regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022937bc72ed1ef42d796a17286e4afdcf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022937bc72ed1ef42d796a17286e4afdcf9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 3, clauses 200 to 275, with new clauses 276 to 545 therein, on Supplementary Order Paper 168. The debate on this part includes schedules 1 and 2 and new schedules 3 to 5, also set out on Supplementary Order Paper 168.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00225b8ba3dacc384f00bf5752edd0c14b36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b8ba3dacc384f00bf5752edd0c14b36\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill, which we debated earlier, covers amendments to the Income Tax Act. Part 2 covers amendments to the Tax Administration Act. Part 3, which we are debating now, covers amendments to other Acts and regulations. The principal set of amendments that National will be focusing on in this debate is the set of amendments to the KiwiSaver Act 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThey are very significant amendments. What these amendments do, and what Part 3 does, is introduce the whole compulsory employer contribution regime for the KiwiSaver system here in New Zealand. These are the provisions that caused Business New Zealand to come to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and say that New Zealand businesses had been ambushed by the Government, and that the Government proposed these measures in the Budget without consultation with employers and businesses in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is pretty powerful language from a group that is not known to be anti-Government. Business New Zealand works quite closely with the Government, but it said to the select committee that these provisions ambushed New Zealand businesses. It went further and told the select committee that some of the provisions around the compulsory employer contributions were \u201Cemployment relations sandpaper\u201D. In other words, the provisions would cause major problems to employment relations in New Zealand as we look ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat did Business New Zealand mean by that? Probably the best example of what it meant by that can be found if we look at clause 219 in the bill, which is on page 363. Clause 219 is a long clause with many amendments to the existing Act, such as sections 101A, 101B, 101C, etc.\u2014it goes right through. The new section that will cause quite a lot of trouble is new section 101B, to be inserted by clause 219. Let me draw the Committee\u2019s attention to what that new section is doing. It states: \u201CThe purpose of this section is to ensure that, for contractual arrangements of parties to an employment relationship (as defined in section 4(2) of the Employment Relations Act 2000), compulsory contributions are paid in addition to an employee\u2019s gross salary or wages described in section 101D(3).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis means that employers may have entered into existing agreements with employees based on an employer\u2019s ability to pay a certain level of wage or salary based on the business\u2019s income. Suddenly, this legislation will require employers to add to employees\u2019 total remuneration package through making contributions under this clause to the compulsory employer contributions. To land that on employers part way through negotiations on an employment relations agreement, when they may be already fully stretched in meeting the obligations of that agreement, is obviously a very significant imposition on employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe will be covering a number of the various new sections inserted by clause 219 as this debate goes on, but perhaps one of the features that concerns us most as we look ahead\u2014and a number of features concern us\u2014relates to employment agreements and the negotiation of them. How are employers to handle them? An employer may negotiate an employment agreement with a number of workers, and some workers may say: \u201CYes, we want to be part of KiwiSaver.\u201D, and the employer may say: \u201COK, if you want to be part of KiwiSaver we can afford this much as a salary or wage increase. But then we have to consider that on top of that we have to pay our compulsory contribution, so we will agree to this deal for you.\u201D Other employees may say: \u201CNo, we\u2019re not going into KiwiSaver.\u201D, so the employer may say: \u201COK, to make it a fair package, you have to be remunerated a little more to make sure you have an equivalent package.\u201D So a slightly higher wage or salary is agreed on for that person because the employer does not have to make a compulsory employer contribution, which is part of a total remuneration package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat happens, then, if a few weeks or a couple of months later an employee who gets that slightly higher wage or salary remuneration because he or she is not part of the KiwiSaver scheme, suddenly says they want to be part of the scheme? That person has a right to do that under the law, so the employer is caught. The employer has agreed to a certain wage or salary package on the basis that a person was not part of the scheme, but the person changed his or her mind and now wants to become part of the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is the kind of friction that Business New Zealand was talking about. The select committee heard a lot of submissions on this particular issue. A lot of submissions were received on new clause 219. There are a number of other areas, such as the age of entitlement, on which employers make contributions. Other colleagues will be covering the full range of issues, but I wanted to emphasise that first set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d07d28f4c3914e43b4e3b1a049592f26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d07d28f4c3914e43b4e3b1a049592f26\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make some brief comments about the changes to KiwiSaver made in Part 3, and also to direct some comments to the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 167, at least in as far as that Supplementary Order Paper will make changes to the KiwiSaver scheme. The changes proposed on the Supplementary Order Paper will assist to make sure that KiwiSaver does work as intended, and to the best effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EDr Smith is quite right; we did hear some very compelling submissions on KiwiSaver at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. The select committee proposed a number of changes to the legislation and recommended, for example, allowing employees who contribute to KiwiSaver schemes to phase in their minimum 4 percent contribution, starting at 2 percent on 1 April 2008 and arriving at the full 4 percent as late as 1 April 2011. To be consistent, that option is to be offered to members of complying superannuation schemes, as well, and that is obviously a commendable move. I note that the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions last week issued a statement welcoming, in particular, that change and asserting\u2014I think with a degree of justification\u2014that the KiwiSaver improvements will help those on low incomes. It was speaking in particular about that recommended change, and I think that will encourage what is already a spectacular rate of KiwiSaver uptake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJust having a look at the other changes recommended by Supplementary Order Paper 167 in this area, I note there will be good consumer protection measures that will require complying superannuation funds to ensure that their fees are not unreasonable. This requirement already exists for KiwiSaver schemes. The Government actuary will be empowered to monitor any fee changes to see whether they are unreasonable, so there is a good prudential oversight regime that will be introduced. These changes will see the introduction of a public register of complying superannuation funds so that everybody can see whether a specific scheme will attract the relevant KiwiSaver benefits. So the changes mooted will increase transparency and make what is already an excellent scheme an even better one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00229a3a21e14875482590c8b95fc9bafc6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a3a21e14875482590c8b95fc9bafc6a\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I will also speak about Part 3, in particular about clause 235 and the provisions thereafter that relate to the mortgage diversion provisions in relation to KiwiSaver. I think that all of us in this Committee recognise the importance of homeownership, not just to provide stability for families, which in itself is a most important public policy goal, but also in retirement. In fact, a free home in retirement is the difference for many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders between relative comfort and moderate to severe hardship. All of us know that New Zealand superannuation is inadequate if, at the same time, a person is trying to pay rent on a house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn that connection, I will draw some statistics to the attention of the Committee, prepared for me by the Parliamentary Library. The number of privately owned owner-occupied homes in New Zealand peaked as a percentage of all homes at 73 percent in 1986, but by the year 2000 that percentage had dropped to less than 50 percent. That is a massive drop of 23 percent in just 20 years. By contrast, the percentage of people renting or leasing a home went from 23 percent in 1986 to 44 percent in 2006\u2014almost a corresponding offset. One statistic, the percentage of private homeownerships, went down 23 percent, and there was a 21 percent increase in the number of people renting or leasing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThat brings into focus, I suppose, the tremendous importance of the mortgage diversion part of the KiwiSaver scheme. It can be utilised by people who have been in KiwiSaver for 12 months, and it enables them, under subparagraph (i) of new section 229(2)(i) in clause 235(6), to divert \u201Chalf of the total contributions deducted for or contributed by the person, received by their KiwiSaver scheme provider;\u201D into the repayment of a mortgage on their home, for as long as that mortgage continues. That of course is a very, very important part of the overall arrangements. That is a holistic approach to savings, because it enables a KiwiSaver member both to pay off a mortgage and to save systematically for retirement, at one and the same time. As a result many will enter their retirement with both a freehold home and a well-diversified portfolio of financial investments. That is the goal we want to achieve through this important legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe first anniversary of people coming initially into KiwiSaver will occur on 1 July 2008, so in practical terms mortgage diversion will start from that point onwards. I can confidently predict that this facility will be extremely popular. Why do I say that? I say that based just on my own personal experience and that of many other people I know. We all appreciate that for young people raising children and endeavouring to pay off mortgages, it is also very difficult at that point in time\u2014when the bills are mounting and there are mouths to feed\u2014also to be setting aside money systematically for retirement. That reality has not changed. In fact, the statistics I have just quoted show that it has actually become worse\u2014much worse\u2014in the last 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn my view the huge reduction in the level of homeownership rates and the increasing number of people who are forced, long-term, to rent, is now one of the great problems that face our society. So we need to find a way through that, and that is what mortgage diversion does. It is a vitally important component of KiwiSaver, in my view, and one that I have no doubt will make an important contribution to both the social and financial security of hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders as we move through time. I can foresee 20 years from now that this House and all New Zealand will look back on the introduction of KiwiSaver, including the mortgage diversion component, and say that it has profoundly affected the financial and social security of New Zealanders and their families. For that reason, this part of the bill has my wholehearted support. It was something I personally worked very hard to bring into legislation. I am delighted that it was adopted by the Government and I think that in time it will prove to be a very, very important contribution. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022f28bec9522314f609ddaf5b4f5333fa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f28bec9522314f609ddaf5b4f5333fa9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Gordon Copeland has just spoken on the mortgage diversion scheme and on the part he played in bringing that to its inception. Although I certainly have empathy with his view of the level of homeownership in this country\u2014and he is right; it has dropped significantly, which is nothing for us to be proud of as a nation\u2014I am not so convinced that the mortgage diversion scheme will be as successful as he makes out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIt is an initiative, yes, but the reality is that other issues involved in getting people into their own home, such as the cost of that housing, need to be considered first. There is a lot of debate around once people are in properties where the full amount of their savings should be going. There is a lot of argument to say that the money should be going fully into the house. With the combination of higher interest rates and capital accretion that can be achieved through having our own home, it can be argued that people are far better to have their money going entirely into the savings in those homes than going, by a convoluted process through KiwiSaver with its added bureaucracy, back into the home in another way. However, it is an initiative and part of the scheme, and we will be interested to see how the numbers work out when we go into July next year and see the effect then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will focus on Part 3 of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill, largely on the amendments to the KiwiSaver Act 2006. In my 5-minute slot this morning I will focus on three specific areas. The first I will deal with is the age of entitlements debate, which was an area the Finance and Expenditure Committee had quite significant representation on. I will also talk about the salary sacrifice agreements and the position that employers such as the Christchurch City Council found themselves in. I will also touch on the transitional rates and the position we have got to in regard to those rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI start with the age of entitlements. This was an issue that did not perplex the committee but that the committee gave some consideration to. It concerns the question of whether we should allow individuals under the age of 18 to obtain all the benefits of the KiwiSaver scheme. Many submissions were received from people from across the board, and particularly from the unions, who felt that the full benefits of the KiwiSaver scheme should apply to 16 and 17-year-olds. Both the National Distribution Union and the Council of Trade Unions were most vocal on this particular aspect of the legislation. The Council of Trade Unions, the National Distribution Union, and the New Zealand Nurses Organisation said that preventing young workers from gaining tax credits and employer contributions was somewhat discriminatory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe argument behind not providing the credits to 16 and 17-year-olds was that the Government felt that it would take away the focus on education, and that 16 and 17-year-olds should remain in the education system. I take a different point of view, in that I believe that some 16 and 17-year-olds out there are better off in the workforce. They have reached a point in time at that age when, for one reason or another, they have decided that they have reached the end of the road as far as school is concerned. But many of them go on into careers. They become young apprentices and take on jobs where their future is in doing the hard yards of being an employee and learning a trade. Sometimes, their education blossoms for them as they take up an apprenticeship and learn many more skills through doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EMy argument is that we should be encouraging 16 and 17-year-olds to be saving as early as possible. In that regard, I think it is good reasoning to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take up that opportunity once they end up in employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI understand the argument that by totally removing any age criteria we are allowing many families to take up these tax credits for very young children. It will be interesting to see how many take-ups of KiwiSaver there are by those under 20, which have been taken up by families getting their 5, 6, and 7-year-olds into a savings scheme early on in their life. I think members will find that quite a significant number of families of high net worth are taking up that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u00228bd3ebe204a24779a168d5c1d51b7125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bd3ebe204a24779a168d5c1d51b7125\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak to Part 3, and I will address the KiwiSaver aspect of this bill. I would like to talk firstly about the uneven playing field out there. With this legislation I would not like to be an employer or an employee, because the playing field has become really uneven. When an employer goes along and offers KiwiSaver to its employees, that is all very good, but the reality is that not everybody will take it up. Employers may be offering this scheme to encourage their employees to work and save, which is absolutely great, but under this scheme employers are also contributing up to 4 percent going forward. An employer is giving one employee who is taking up the scheme 4 percent, and another employee who has not taken up the scheme is not getting that 4 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe Government says that is fine because the employer can negotiate with its staff, according to who has taken up the scheme and who has not. But, at the end of the day, somebody may leave the scheme because he or she is in financial hardship and needs to have a respite from it, so he or she will lose that 4 percent, or an employee may decide to enter the scheme after he or she has been through a wage negotiation round, and that employee has every right to enter that scheme. But all of a sudden the employer\u2019s payroll is changing. It cannot predict what the payroll will do from month to month, so it is up to the discretion of the employees as to what they will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe great thing we have had in the past with salaries and wages is that they have been pretty transparent. When someone goes in and earns $20 an hour, that person actually earns $20 an hour. The person beside that employee who earns $20 an hour earns $20 an hour as well, and that is the way it is. I thought that we brought in the fringe benefit tax a few years ago to keep that situation transparent. To keep things even, those people who got benefits like cars and perks relating to their work would put in a fringe benefit tax and they would be taxed at a higher rate. There was a disincentive so that people got a dollar value for the work they did. In that way we could even out that playing field and there would be a bit more transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003ENow in the workplace we still have the fringe benefit tax to keep that transparency, but we also have Working for Families, which complicates that situation. We can now have a situation where two people are working beside each other and doing exactly the same job. One person is getting Working for Families and is getting a little more. That person is still doing that same job but is getting a little more. That person could also decide to go into KiwiSaver, and could again get a little more. All of a sudden a gap is created and it is growing between two people who are doing exactly the same job. One is getting KiwiSaver and Working for Families, and the other is not getting those payments but is doing the same job, and the gap is growing. It also works in the reverse, which is quite complicated. One person who is getting Working for Families might not want to go into the next income level because that would affect the Working for Families payments, and the other person is not getting Working for Families and might take that promotion because it does not affect the income that the person is bringing home. By the time we put KiwiSaver into that mix as well, it all gets really murky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EWhere is the transparency in the workplace when employers go into negotiations with their employees? We are creating complexity in the workplace. I would ask how employers are meant to act in good faith with their employees all the time, which is what we ask them to do under our labour legislation, when there is a moving feast in front of them. What employers want to do is to reward and pay people an amount of money for the work they do, but how can they do that when there is shifting ground underneath those employees all the time? Employers cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI think we will find that, going forward, a lot of court cases will show that employers are not being fair when, in fact, they are trying to be very fair but the rules they have been given create this changing ground underneath them. I would ask how an employee who cannot afford to go into KiwiSaver might feel working beside somebody else who can afford to go into the scheme and who is getting a 4 percent bonus to go into KiwiSaver. The first employee cannot afford to go into KiwiSaver and has not gone into the scheme, so he or she is not benefiting from it. How do those people in the workforce feel? We have to ask ourselves whether we have given employers and employees a fair playing field now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a46e25d924da461589dd5d97ad39be87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a46e25d924da461589dd5d97ad39be87\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I speak now to Part 3, which deals with changes to various other Acts and regulations. First of all, a previous speaker Mr Gordon Copeland mentioned the mortgage diversion part of the general KiwiSaver scheme, which is alluded to in, I think, Supplementary Order Paper 168 and in this part. Gordon Copeland is no longer on the Finance and Expenditure Committee since he went out on his own, and I think it is important to note that pretty much after he left there has been virtually no discussion whatsoever, no lobbying for, and no sponsoring of the mortgage diversion facility or that part of KiwiSaver. In fact, commentary has been very, very silent because most commentators believe that, yes, it is a worthy goal or worthy ambition to have some facility like that, but it does not sit very tidily at all within KiwiSaver\u2014a long-term retirement savings scheme\u2014to have as part of that same suite of bills a system that assists and encourages people to borrow money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI note that even the monetary policy inquiry we had, which touched on all things KiwiSaver, shied away from the mortgage diversion part of KiwiSaver. There is obviously a reluctance to take that part out, but I imagine the Minister\u2019s preference would be to take it out\u2014perhaps to carve it out and let it form some part of other legislation. I do not think that is such a bad idea, and the National Party would welcome such discussions, firstly, to simplify the KiwiSaver legislation and, secondly, to make a more pure and transparent method to homeownership. Further to that, even the Council of Trade Unions did not comment on the mortgage diversion part of it, but it did note how unaffordable New Zealand housing is. It was not talking about the debt of the mortgage; it was talking about the ability to fund a mortgage or to get a deposit for a first home. The council lamented how badly New Zealand wages had fallen behind Australia\u2019s. The head of the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union, Andrew Little, before our committee on other business, recently also noted that. He used the example of how in New Zealand an electrician could get between $70,000 and $85,000 a year, while over in Australia the same electrician was on A$120,000 to A$130,000. He agreed, as part of his submission about some other matters before the committee, that that attraction was pretty hard to resist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI think it was Mr Tremain and Katrina Shanks who earlier touched on the contributions around KiwiSaver. That issue is alluded to in this part but is not hugely addressed. It is more about home affordability, and KiwiSaver will struggle because\u2014remember\u2014it is 4 percent of gross, not 4 percent of those moneys left, which is about 5.5 percent or 6 percent of net. Quite frankly, when people are saving towards KiwiSaver, over time their annual return after tax will be about 3-ish percent, I guess, and their mortgages will be at 8 percent to 10 percent. Why on earth would they save towards KiwiSaver whilst they still had a mortgage? That is the contradiction that the mortgage diversion part starts in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will just touch on the amendments to clause 284 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 168. It defines certain disposals by portfolio investment entities or by the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. I would like to mention that New Zealand is heading towards some dangerous territory here. Admittedly it was not a portfolio investment entity or the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, although they have been doing this; it was the Earthquake and War Damage Fund, I believe, which divested from tobacco stocks, thinking that Dr Cullen wanted it to divest from those, and believing that he would be pleased and happy for it to do so. Now, that is a debate that we should have, for sure, but Ministers of Finance, Ministers of the Crown, and any members of Parliament, of course, must be at total arm\u2019s length from any funds that the Crown owns and from any way that their influence could even be misconstrued. Be they for moral or ethical reasons, if it is set up in the deed of those funds, then they should be left alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI also seek the Minister\u2019s opinion and advice on the amendments to clause 263B set out on Supplementary Order Paper 168. I would welcome it if he could explain to us the issues around the Health (Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2007, which is included in the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014or perhaps someone from the various health portfolios would like to participate on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00227d5518b653dd4e94a0326436be216083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d5518b653dd4e94a0326436be216083\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The Opposition would really appreciate the Government responding to some of the concerns that are being raised\u2014for example, the concern expressed by my colleague Chris Tremain about the age limitation on the KiwiSaver provisions in the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe select committee was asked many times by people making submissions why the provisions were restricted to people above the age of 18. If we want to develop a savings culture in New Zealand, if we want to encourage saving at a younger age, when people first start to work\u2014and of course they can legally work at age 17\u2014why not enable them to be part of the full KiwiSaver scheme when they can legally work in New Zealand? If the Government is serious about supporting a savings culture with this now quite complex KiwiSaver scheme, it seems wrong to tell young new workers that, sorry, they cannot become part of the full KiwiSaver scheme until they are 18. Where is the logic in that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf the Minister stood up and said that, at the end of the day, it was a revenue issue, that the whole scheme was costing a lot of money, and that if the Government lowered the age of eligibility down to 17 or 16, it would cost too much money, I could understand that. I could understand the Government making a pragmatic decision about the revenue cost, because KiwiSaver is going to cost the Government a lot of money over the next few years\u2014a lot of money\u2014and there are very significant revenue issues. But we need to understand why we do not let people be part of the KiwiSaver scheme when they start work. It is very clearly spelt out in clause 219, where the age of entitlement is specified. National members are at a loss to understand why new workers cannot get into the KiwiSaver scheme when they first start work. It seems bizarre that they cannot do that at whatever age they can legally start work. That is the first issue, and we would really appreciate hearing the Government\u2019s explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe second issue is covered in the transitional provisions of clause 237. Members on the select committee listened to submissions\u2014often from unions, particularly the Council of Trade Unions\u2014that argued quite strongly that the 4 percent contribution from employees is a big ask for low-income earners. Middle and higher income earners already save. One of the big issues with the KiwiSaver scheme\u2014if it is to work properly\u2014is whether it can help lower-income people to start saving and to get the benefits of saving. So many submissions to the select committee stated that 4 percent is a big ask for middle to low income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMany of them asked why we would not allow flexibility whereby an employer could agree with an employee, as part of a remuneration package, to make a greater contribution, thus allowing the employee to put in, say, 2 percent, rather than the full 4 percent. The Government partially responded to this question by saying that, as a transitional measure, it would allow an employee to put in 2 percent for 2 years, if the employer agreed to put in 2 percent\u2014rather than 1 percent, which is the standard rule for employers that is set out in this legislation. It said it would allow that transitional provision for 2 years, then in the third year the employee would put in 3 percent, to be matched by 3 percent from the employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe issue is that the transitional measure is not recognising the position of low to middle income earning New Zealanders. A lot of our people are in that area. People do not realise that the average income of New Zealanders is about $10,000 a year higher then the median income, from memory. It is significantly higher. If we look at the median income of New Zealanders, we see that it is somewhere down in the $30,000 to $38,000 range. It is a huge ask to expect people with families to contribute 4 percent of that gross pay to this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe should hear from the Government why it was unacceptable to it to have employers agree to make up the difference as part of a total remuneration deal, and why it refused to listen to the representations from the unions that it allow a more flexible scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002279643b34613f438f8dbb46a8b8ea7713\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279643b34613f438f8dbb46a8b8ea7713\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad that earlier Mr Foss spotted the most critical element of this bill in the massive amendments that are being moved to it, when he referred to the new Part 2A, inserted by clause 263B, which affects the Health (Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2007. This was the deep, dark secret of this bill, and I give him credit for having discovered and revealed it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI should tell the Committee precisely what this change does. It replaces section OB 1 of the Income Tax Act 2004 with section YA 1 of the Income Tax Bill. More seriously, this change is a drafting change consequent upon the rewrite of the Income Tax Act. It picks up the provision that is in the 2004 Act, which technically no longer exists, and carries it over to the bill. But I give the member credit for his perspicacity in getting to the heart of the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOn a less serious note, I turn to the more substantive comments the member\u2019s colleagues have made. Mr Tremain and Dr Smith have raised questions about young people taking up KiwiSaver, why the member tax credit is not available to those under the age of 18, and a range of associated issues. The underlying concern that they have expressed is that this legislation is potentially limiting entry into KiwiSaver by people under the age of 18. I am pleased to inform those members that of the 316,000-odd people who have signed up to KiwiSaver already, just over 16,000 of them are 16 and 17-year-olds. So despite the absence of the member tax credit and despite some of the other incentives such as compulsory contributions not being available to those people, we still have a significant uptake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f5af2105f9647b0b52da60cf659d41c\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll be by the parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255907ad764b44af9aba13bcaea3bbcd2\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that may be by the parents entering into a savings arrangement on behalf of the children. That is quite probable. I can remember many years ago when some of us were young, callow youth, there were various savings schemes our parents entered into on our behalf that, as we grew older and became earners, we were able to carry on. I think precisely the same will happen with KiwiSaver, and I welcome the fact that we are already seeing such a significant uptake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EDr Smith said earlier that the Government may run some huge fiscal risks here. That is absolutely correct. We have already exceeded 100 percent of our year 1 target for KiwiSaver, and the year from July is barely half over\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc0aa52fb8884b3fafca4259aa6dcab7\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: An excellent response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae31a04915347de996712807c4c1570\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: On the one hand it shows that we will run some risks, and, on the other, as Mr Chauvel says, it is an excellent response. People can see that KiwiSaver is a scheme that is entirely beneficial to them and to their long-term interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EDr Smith raised a concern about employers having to pay their contribution on top of existing salary or wages they may be paying out and settlements they may be reaching in respect of their employees. He overlooks the fact that employers will be eligible for an employers\u2019 tax credit of up to $20 a week to offset the cost of that contribution. The consequence of that is that in 2008 the employers\u2019 contribution is 1 percent, and the salary or wages that will be covered will be up to $104,000 per employee. That will go to 2 percent in year 2, or down to $52,000; 3 percent in year 3, or down to $34,000-odd; and in year 4, with the 4 percent contribution rate, the subsidy will still cover $26,000 of salary contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOver that 4-year period there is a deliberate phase-in. Employers will be able to restructure their costs in such a way as to not be adversely impacted. If the current trends continue, we will see a substantial proportion of the New Zealand savings market enrolled in KiwiSaver and able to take advantage of all of its provisions\u2014for the first time, perhaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI remind the Committee that this country has had a shocking history of long-term savings over a long period. We can go back to the 1970s and the superannuation debacle at that time, the 1980s superannuation debacle, and the mid-1990s superannuation debacle. For the first time KiwiSaver, based on voluntary contributions, has the potential to get us over that crisis that we have all lamented at various times over the last three decades. That crisis has put us into a position where our lament now is: \u201CLook how good Australia is. Look how good Australia has become since compulsory superannuation came in in that country.\u201D I remind the Committee that that was in the mid-1990s. It is a comparatively short transition. I suspect very strongly that if we were to have this debate in a decade\u2019s time, we would be saying that some of the great strengths of the New Zealand economy at that point will be occurring because of the investment through KiwiSaver and the level of uptake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think that this scheme not only is very timely, but also is on the right track. It has all the right incentives for people to join. I want to make just a quick comment as I close, in response to Katrina Shanks and one or two others who have talked about\u2014and I think Dr Smith used this phrase\u2014\u201Cambush and sandpaper arrangements\u201D in respect of employers. I think that is most unfortunate. At the time that these proposals were being developed earlier this year, in the context of the 2007 Budget, it was totally appropriate that there be a measure of secrecy and security about their development. I well recall being at the Budget lock-ups where employers were first briefed on the impact of these changes. I did not see and do not remember anyone at those meetings talking about ambushes or other things. In fact, their initial reaction to the changes was extraordinarily positive. If one goes back and looks at their initial statements immediately afterwards, one will find that that was the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere will be implications for employers\u2014of course there are\u2014but they are essentially matters to be resolved between employers and employees. I find it somewhat ironic that those groups that spend a lot of time telling successive Governments to butt out of the employer-employee relationships now turn round and say: \u201COh, you\u2019ve made it difficult for us because you\u2019re going to require us to talk to our employees, to negotiate with them.\u201D This is the very thing these groups have been telling Governments for years they should be able to do in a free and unfettered way. They cannot have it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022dab90fc28c4244b5b729832bf1adc83a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dab90fc28c4244b5b729832bf1adc83a\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take the debate in a slightly different direction in this 5-minute speech. I want to focus on the Customs and Excise Act 1996, and the two amendments to that Act that will have quite a significant impact on child support payments in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe first is section 280K, which is inserted in the principal Act by clause 263. It deals with the disclosure of arrival and departure information for the purposes of the Child Support Act 1991. Subsection (1) states: \u201CThe purpose of this section is to facilitate the exchange of information \u2026\u201D. Section 280L provides for the Inland Revenue Department to have direct access to arrival and departure information, to help it apply the Child Support Act 1991. In that regard, a range of information is to be provided, and I think that is a good thing. Subsection (4) of section 280K refers to the person\u2019s name, the person\u2019s date of birth, the person\u2019s tax file number\u2014all information that I think will be hugely relevant in starting to dealing with what can only be described as the mountain of unpaid child support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to bring to the Committee\u2019s attention some of the figures, which are frightening. I find it unbelievable that parents can have children, then walk away from their obligation to bring up those children. I find it simply quite unfathomable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022705bf935e2d8404cac33968755494cad\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Unconscionable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b7eb1545314a709b148d705e1c54d8\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CUnconscionable\u201D is the word that the Minister uses. For the life of me I cannot understand how someone can bring a small baby into this world, see that baby grow, then walk away from one\u2019s responsibility to bring up that child. I accept that people move out of relationships. I understand that. It happens around the world, and that is not going to change. But for a parent to actually walk away from his or her obligation, both financially and on a relationship level, to bring up that child I find totally unconscionable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EHere are some of the figures. Child support debt now has risen to $1.129 billion. That is up from $380 million in 2000. We have seen this exponential increase in parents of either sex\u2014but I have to say mainly men\u2014walking away from those relationships, walking away from their responsibilities to bring up their children. Quite frankly, I find that unconscionable, as the Minister said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe second point I will make here is that the amount of assessment debt has gone from $192 million to $450 million. As at 31 March, 23,959 liable parents owed more than $10,000 each in child support. Over 23,000 people in this country have walked away from their obligation to bring up their children, their obligation to financially support their children. To allow the State to take over that role is just unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EOf those parents, 11,793 now live in Australia, and they owe a collective $354 million. Although this side of the Chamber does not support the vision of this bill, particularly the taxation provisions, in terms of the Customs and Excise Act 1996 I believe that there is an onus on this Parliament to come down on those parents, to make it difficult for them to walk away from their obligations. We should not accept, by any stretch of the imagination, their walking away from their obligations. We should come down hard on those parents who are living in Australia. The provisions of section 280K, \u201CDisclosure of arrival and departure information for purposes of Child Support Act 1991\u201D, and the provision allowing that information to go to the Inland Revenue Department, will help us to clamp down on those parents and get them to take on their obligations. I do not know why the Government should have to do that. It is something that parents should do as of right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELastly, and in that regard, although both men and women are involved in this issue, 288 fathers earning over $100,000 have total child support debts of $5.5 million. What are those men doing? What do they think? Do they think they can just walk away from their obligation to raise their child? It is totally unacceptable. National supports sections 280K and 280L.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to the proposed amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Papers 167 and 168 in his name be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) inserted by paragraph (b) of clause 201(6) the word \u201Cshare\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cscheme\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of clause 298(3) the words \u201Cparagraph (c)\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cparagraph (d);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto renumber paragraph (c) inserted by paragraph (a) of clause 298(3) as paragraph (d);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (db) inserted by subclause (2) of clause 402 the words \u201Csection LH 2(4)\u201D, and to substitute the words \u201Csection LH 2(6)\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from the heading to section OB 7C inserted by clause 464 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from subsection (2) of section OB 7C inserted by clause 464 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from row 5C inserted in table O1 by clause 466 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from the heading to section OK 4B inserted by clause 480 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from subsection (2) of section OK 4B inserted by clause 480 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from row 4B inserted in table O17 by clause 481 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (bb) inserted by clause 482 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from the heading to section OP 11B inserted by clause 484 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from subsection (2) of section OP 11B inserted by clause 484 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit from row 6B inserted in table O19 by clause 485 the word \u201Cbusiness\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cresearch and development\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit subsection (3B), other than the heading, inserted by clause 519B, and to substitute the following new subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E(3B) Despite subsection (3), this section does not apply for the purposes of section LH 1(2) (Who this subpart applies to); and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (ob) inserted by subclause (1) of clause 521, and substitute the following new paragraph:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E(ob) subpart LH (Tax credits for expenditure on research and development):.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002208f97f20fb824f3a8ddb84ba2002cf96\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000149\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Papers 167 and 168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225eab85194390407e96ed6fac8f5b1a9d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c42b65292abd4ab08374f6c5c7de0174\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f827b9f52fc140778ba512ae6fe7d34d\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b4fad6cbeac14018bfe94142abf548ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c600fc40757a480b9f7a80ebb5bfe336\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022016cfeb16c694fc0aab10a344bc88f99\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a74c6f51bb84487d945182a24a3baca1\u0022\u003ENew schedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cfb14eb79074a4f8b49c72b6684a750\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That new schedule 3 inserted by Supplementary Order Paper168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew schedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022893685f8e9764b1e88110de3f0ae58ac\u0022\u003ENew schedule 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225407db1ffec24b21838ea3467eabb519\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That new schedule 4 inserted by Supplementary Order Paper 168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew schedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fdc47ff873a4b3e9fc2511c4dab7e36\u0022\u003ENew schedule 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa43f8ea8ade458c92486ad03827ddea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That new schedule 5 inserted by Supplementary Order Paper 168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland; Independent: Field; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew schedule 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f803a5766074b868485679f13e137b3\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022db4b3cc750fd4f7cb7f35a17fa9e031c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db4b3cc750fd4f7cb7f35a17fa9e031c\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I will use this debate on clauses 1 and 2 to re-establish exactly why National is opposing this legislation, because there are some matters in here that we support, as members listening to this debate will have heard. We support, for example, the reduction in the corporate tax rate. We support a number of the different measures in the bill. But the fundamental issue in respect of this bill is that this bill is what is colloquially called \u201Cthe May tax bill\u201D. It is an annual tax bill. What the annual tax bill does every year is set the income tax rates for New Zealanders. The Government had the opportunity with this bill to cut tax rates for ordinary wage and salary earning New Zealanders. This was a fantastic opportunity given that the Government now says that cutting taxes for ordinary wage and salary earning New Zealanders is a priority on its agenda and is something it now considers important. It could have done that with this legislation because this is the bill that sets those income tax rates. But the Government has not. It has not had the slightest interest in reducing income taxes for New Zealanders. Sure, the corporate tax rate is reduced, but there are not that many corporates in New Zealand. Most New Zealanders pay personal income tax. This bill, the annual tax bill, is the vehicle for dealing with that. It is spelt out in the title of the bill. Clause 1, \u201CTitle\u201D, spells it out. It has those words \u201Cannual rates\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that sets the annual income tax rates, and the Labour members could have used this bill if they genuinely believed in lower income tax rates for wage and salary earning New Zealanders. They could have done it with this bill that we have been debating for these last few hours, which has been in front of this Parliament since May this year. But the Government has not done so. That is why the Opposition is opposed to this bill. We believe in reducing personal income taxes on all New Zealanders. That is what we totally support. We are committed to it. The ACT party is committed with us, but certainly none of the Government parties are committed to income tax reductions for New Zealanders. I know that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, has taken exception to that comment, and I accept that United Future believes in personal income tax reduction. But does that not show the paradox? He is the Minister of Revenue. Does he not feel something like a neuter? What an extraordinary situation we have in this country today\u2014the Minister of Revenue can say he personally thinks that income taxes should come down, and everyone knows his views are irrelevant. His views do not matter a damn. This Labour Government is not about to bring down income taxes, regardless of what the Hon Peter Dunne personally believes. It is staggering. I was at a conference with the Hon Peter Dunne the other day and as the Opposition spokesperson I dared not say what I believed, because it would have set the hares running, whereas Peter Dunne, the Minister of Revenue, could say what he thought should happen to personal income taxes, because everyone knows it does not matter what he thinks. Everyone knows that Labour takes no notice of what he thinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat we all know in this Parliament, and I think what New Zealanders are coming to see, is that Labour might, in election years, talk about tax cuts. It did last time; Labour talked about tax cuts prior to the last election, and once it got back into office it changed its mind. Labour promised to shift the income tax thresholds\u2014a very minimal move but it would have helped. It would have helped avoid the need to deal with redundancy payments in this legislation as an ad hoc measure brought in at the last minute. If the Government had shifted those tax thresholds as promised at the last election, we would not need the ad hoc measures that are being brought in by this legislation. So that is what the people of New Zealand have to be very sceptical about. Labour promised personal income tax cuts prior to the last election and then backed down. It broke its promise on it. We know that Labour will promise income tax cuts again as we head towards this election. We know that Labour thinks about personal income tax cuts only in election years, and all New Zealanders should be very suspicious. Last time, Labour promised tax cuts and reneged after the election. New Zealanders should be very suspicious because everyone knows that Dr Cullen does not believe in lower personal taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b68efc786aa74fe4b0615a56149f5b35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b68efc786aa74fe4b0615a56149f5b35\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I am speaking to the title of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters Bill. As I keep noting, this debate incorporates many, many Supplementary Order Papers, some of which are very, very fresh off the press. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI think this bill should actually be renamed the \u201CSorry, the Government Spending Has Dragged You Into a Higher Tax Bracket Bill\u201D. Because, as Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith just noted, with Government spending New Zealand workers are being dragged into higher and higher tax brackets. In fact, the infamous \u201Cchewing gum tax cuts\u201D announced in the 2005 Budget were dragged off the table and are now no more than a piece of dodgy, disgusting chutty on the bottom of some school desk somewhere. They are long forgotten. But, as Dr Smith just noted, election year is coming up and, funnily enough, tax cuts are being talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIf the Prime Minister wrote the bill, perhaps it would be entitled the \u201COops, Sorry, Treasury Got It Wrong Bill\u201D. Apparently the Prime Minister\u2019s road to Damascus conversion on tax cuts has come about and previous lack of tax cuts are all Treasury\u2019s fault because its forecast was so wrong over so long. In fact\u2014I tell members just as an aside\u2014Treasury produced some papers recently that point out its forecast has not been wrong. It has been predicting surpluses for quite some time, and it has just projected a structural forecast further out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EPerhaps this bill should be the \u201CWe Just Thought of Something About Redundancy (We Have Had a Chat to the CTU) Bill\u201D. I would like to talk about the redundancy clauses of this bill. The redundancy provisions were picked up in the Supplementary Order Papers, and there were public relations statements from both Ministers Dunne and Cullen. But I raise the point again about the redundancy rebate clauses in this bill. They have never been aired. They have never been aired in this forum. They have never been aired in a select committee. They have never been discussed by this Parliament. We have not received advice from officials on this\u2014absolutely never. These provisions have never been debated in this Chamber up until the last 15-odd hours. They have never been debated in Committee with cross-party buy-in to try to make some decent legislation. Even if philosophically National might disagree with it, we would try to contribute and help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe redundancy rebate has never been challenged out in the public by those taxpayers who, at the end of the day, will have to be funding this. It has never been challenged by those who perhaps want some of this tax revenue spent somewhere else\u2014be it on hip operations, education, student loans, or whatever. It has never been challenged other than in a dodgy discussion in a backroom in some Minister\u2019s office up in the Beehive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe redundancy rebate has never been quantified or qualified. How much is it? What will it cost? What is the fiscal impact? National has Supplementary Order Papers pushed aside because of the supposed fiscal impact of them, some of which is quite minimal. What is the fiscal cost of the redundancy rebates of 6c in every dollar up to $3,600? What is the cost? What is the study historically? How does that rewrite the accounts? How does that rewrite the forecast accounts? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a suite of bills that fell out of Budget 2007, which is a good reminder of the confidence and supply issue. I guess the confidence and supply issue is why the Greens over there are abstaining on this bill and, of course, why National is voting against it. We do not have any confidence in the supply of funds to the current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe title of the bill, I think, is quite misleading. There are some absolutely classic quotes that came from Dr Cullen\u2019s and Minister Dunne\u2019s press releases that I think will come back to haunt them. This is their road to Damascus. Dr Cullen has essentially said that he likes a flat tax rate of 6c in the dollar for any redundancy payments. That is actually what he says. I will read to members, perhaps with a minor change or two, what he said, and this could be the title of the bill. Dr Cullen and Mr Dunne said yesterday, when talking about redundancy, that taxation payments should be fairer to people who are pushed into a higher tax bracket when they receive redundancy payments\u2014and they extended it to lump-sum payments. Well, income is income. If one tries to argue that this income should be treated differently by the Inland Revenue Department than one\u2019s own income, then one is in trouble. The department will go after that person. If one keeps it simple\u2014\u201Ckeep it simple, stupid\u201D; give the department a big kiss, if you like\u2014one sees income as income. The complexity that this starts to bring into the tax system is not welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAnother point is that the redundancy rebate is not quite as generous as the Ministers have announced, because it has to be claimed. It is not a rebate. A person does not suddenly get a cheque when he or she receives redundancy pay. It has to be claimed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00227919ef94b01d4df69e44ebf88e112f75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227919ef94b01d4df69e44ebf88e112f75\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As with my other colleagues, I think it is really important to go back to first principles when we look at this massive complex bill and see the giant central piece of the jigsaw puzzle is simply not there\u2014a coherent and strategic approach to tax reform, which is the very purpose of this massive undertaking, and which this Government has singly failed to address. The reason it is the central issue, and the reason it will be one of the central stories next year as the political competition heats up, is because fundamentally we are a market driven economy. That means that people move themselves and their resources in accordance with economic incentives, which are vitally influenced by tax policy structures. Therefore, the absence of any coherence in the life of this Labour Government since 2000 towards a strategic approach to tax is a massive, missing central piece of the political jigsaw puzzle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe idea that perhaps we could have looked at this in a closed economy setting 30 or 40 years ago is completely out of date in light of the rise of the global economy. The often quoted facts about this massive exodus of New Zealanders\u2014not simply to Australia, but elsewhere\u2014is perhaps the clearest illustration that members of the public can fully understand the need to have a competitive tax structure. Even when we look at the bits in this curate\u2019s egg that we like, such as the reduction of the corporate tax rate, we see that we are lacking coherence there. This is not an overall strategic approach, and I will just mention two or three of the obvious reasons why it is not. Firstly, it is not a comprehensive approach to business tax reform. What we know is that there were\u2014from memory\u201475,000 individual proprietorships and 44,000 partnerships in New Zealand in the year to December 2006. If we were to have had a comprehensive approach to business tax reform, we would have had some solution for those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second obvious point is that we all know the issue of disintermediation in tax and banking policy\u2014we are about to discuss that in a bill coming up shortly, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). What the Government has now done by failing to have a strategic approach is open up a massive wedge of 9c in the dollar in relation to the top marginal rate. I find it laughable to use the phrase \u201Ctop marginal rate\u201D when I know it cuts in at $60,000 gross tax, but nevertheless that is the decision the Government has made. To me $60,000 a year does not sound like an enormous amount of money\u2014and we could ask any nurse, doctor, or teacher earning that salary whether he or she feels \u201Crich\u201D\u2014but that is meant to be the threshold for cutting in at this tax rate. So this gap has been opened up and the lack of a coherent, strategic approach now creates this problem. So, yes, bits of this legislation make sense, but overall, when we look at this massive document, we have to say it is a lack of strategy and a lack of coherence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EMore recently we have heard the Prime Minister in particular rabbit on about the tax being consistently made in respect of the surplus. She said: \u201CWell, nobody told us. Treasury got it wrong. Treasury didn\u2019t tell us.\u201D What a load of cobblers\u2014I do not think that is unparliamentary language, Mr Chairperson. Let me quote directly from the Treasury advice to the incoming Government in 2005. Members will recollect the Prime Minister\u2019s spin that nobody told the Government it had a surplus and nobody told it about income tax reform. Let us reflect on the following statement to the incoming Government 2 years ago: \u201Chigh marginal tax rates on personal and company income are more likely to have a negative impact on growth than others, by inhibiting the decisions that drive investment and enabling people to make the most of their economic opportunities.\u201D There are a dozen other such statements from Treasury contained in documents that even we have public access to, going back years, that indicated to the Government, if it had been of a mind to listen, the need to address the problem of growing surpluses, the need to address the growing competition in tax policy, and the need to advance a coherent and strategic approach to these issues. The reduction in corporate tax to 30 percent might have been a pretty hot policy position to take 15 years ago, but not so today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u00227a98f2db6ad34606ac02a7da566c6c31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a98f2db6ad34606ac02a7da566c6c31\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak on the title of this bill. In the debate on this bill I have spoken about KiwiSaver and research and development tax credits, but I have not yet spoken about corporate tax rates, and I want to address them for a little bit. However, the one theme that is coming through as we read this bill, digest it, and understand it is the theme of how complex it is. Where is the long-term strategy for tax in New Zealand? There does not seem to be a long-term strategy. It all seems to be very piecemeal, and I have a problem with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI talked about research and development tax credits. We can talk about how there are now vehicles to try to get research and development tax credits. The perfect example was that the policy for research tax credits came from Australia. In Australia, banks tried to take advantage of these research and development tax credits by saying that development of their software was research and development, when actually it was redevelopment of software they already had. And that is what we will see. We will see people coming in and trying to take advantage of situations. Obviously there are loopholes in this legislation that enable people to do that, and I do not think they have been addressed as they should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about research and development it is just one tiny portion of this legislation. There are gaps in the legislation where people will try to take advantage of tax credits. Once again we have created a little tax pocket for a limited number of businesses. When we talk about KiwiSaver tax credits we are talking about exactly the same thing. We are taking about applying a specific tax advantage to a small portion of our population\u2014to those going into KiwiSaver. I get confused as to where the strategy is. Should we not have one tax structure\u2014structure, not rate\u2014for everybody that is the same, so that everybody progresses through the tax structure, instead of \u201CYou belong in this silo, you belong in this silo, and you belong in this silo.\u201D, and making it very piecemeal? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI believe that the Minister Peter Dunne, who has put this big bit of legislation together\u2014and it is a big bit of legislation\u2014supported Working for Families when it went through this House, and it is another form of tax credit. The Labour Government would say that it is a tax cut but, in effect, it is a tax credit. For years this Minister has campaigned on income splitting, but nowhere in this bill have I seen income splitting come through. He has campaigned and campaigned on income splitting for the last 24 years. One would think that the Minister of Revenue would be able to get it into this tax bill, but it has not made it. So how does what he has here line up with his long-term strategy for where he wants to see tax in New Zealand? It is quite interesting because obviously he is passionate about that matter, but this legislation does not support what he believes. It will be interesting to see what the long-term strategy is for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI would like to touch on the corporate tax rates in this legislation because I believe that they add another level of complexity. We now have a corporate tax rate at 30 percent, a personal tax rate at 33 percent, a personal tax rate at 39 percent, and then there are not-for-profits, which are still sitting on 33 percent. We have a range of tax rates now that people can use, depending on the legal entity vehicle they are using. So we have silos again. People will really have to think about how they will structure their organisation to get the best tax benefits they can. This creates another vehicle for people to get into the 30 percent rate. We do not want to encourage avoidance, which I think this legislation does by widening the gaps between all the different tax rates. We have to be careful when we generate new legislation that we do not allow this to happen, but I believe that is what we are doing in many areas in this legislation. We are creating silos where people can apply, do a bit of manipulation, and move their businesses around. Accountants and lawyers must be extremely happy with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002283b76bca7d2f4ccba09feb117b475f91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b76bca7d2f4ccba09feb117b475f91\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the title of this bill and to bring another strain of thought to the research and development tax credit side of this debate. I want to speak specifically on that matter and, more generally, on the wider tax base. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ENational will not be voting for this legislation. We believe that the tax position put forward under clause 3 is not the direction in which this country should be heading. This bill is not going down the track of setting the vision that we need as a country and, as a result, we will not be voting for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to focus on the research and development tax credits and why we do not believe they will specifically achieve what we need in this country. Under the Labour Government we have seen a supposed agenda of economic transformation. But the reality is that although the New Zealand economy has changed over the last 6 to 8 years, there is no way that it has transformed. Other countries have changed rapidly. The export composition of many countries\u2014of many small nations like Finland, Ireland, and Singapore\u2014has transformed their economies significantly, to the point where their exports as a percentage of GDP are significantly higher than those of New Zealand. We still wallow at the 20 percent level of exports to GDP while other countries like Ireland have a significantly higher rate than that. Those countries saw 10 years ago, 8 years ago, 6 years ago, the need to transform their economies away from specifically agricultural-based industries into more of a weightless economy, and they transformed their economies rapidly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe legislation before us gave us the opportunity to leapfrog, to go forward, and to focus specifically on the industries that will transform our economy. I think the bill has lacked focus in that regard and that New Zealand has lacked focus in terms of its economic transformation agenda. New Zealand needs to act quickly to take its exports forward. The area where I think we can do that significantly is in the weightless economy. In 1996 our total exports were $20 billion and in 2006 they were $32 billion\u2014a growth rate of some 51 percent. That is a significant contribution. If we look at the weightless economy, which are services that New Zealand provides to economies overseas\u2014such as 24-hour telecommunications services and helpdesk services\u2014we see that they have grown from $792 million to $2.3 billion over the same period of time. That is a 193 percent increase in exports generated out of this nation. To me that is the focus that we should have had with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI see that the research and development tax credits in this bill are across all industries, such as my own businesses\u2014my real estate business, my travel business, and development companies in Hawke\u2019s Bay. I fail to see how an investment in research and development tax credits for those businesses will take this nation forward, or encourage export growth, or improve our balance of payments deficit. Quite frankly, it will not. Companies that are not in that market will use all manner of means to get a tax credit they would not otherwise get. I think that is the wrong approach. The research and development tax credit was an opportunity to focus on the weightless economy and to focus on our export markets to drive our exports as a percentage of GDP forward and upward. In that regard, I am disappointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI do not think there has ever been a precedent for an Opposition party to vote for another party\u2019s tax bill, and National will not be changing that tradition. National is against this bill and will not be voting for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226220bd5cce814e59a74f4451b734d455\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000183\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 167 and 168 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d21755d5f1a94c5d91807cb423958c17\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229791a5d386294459ba687257323b956f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022724e53ff13794e749567590eb63dde63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022724e53ff13794e749567590eb63dde63\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee divide the bill into the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill, the Taxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill, and the Taxation (KiwiSaver) Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 169.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222fe957acc7d0402fac1914e5720f4158\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000185\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000186\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8078fcf392b4d2fa5d7da23b0914e0a\u0022\u003EDairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022973784fa84a7440f967a8c50716e28c4\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002209b5aaeb90644f24ad7c02ad18a403ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209b5aaeb90644f24ad7c02ad18a403ac\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. The Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) was introduced into the House on 14 August this year. It was read for the first time on 21 August and was referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration. The committee received and considered 10 written submissions on the bill. The bill amends the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act 2001. It provides for the export rights to 11 designated dairy export markets, at the expiry of the rights currently held by the Fonterra Cooperative Group. The bill will complete the transition begun in 2001 to a new industry structure, without the monopoly powers of a statutory marketing board. It will also provide certainty to all the dairy industry\u2019s stakeholders about the future access they have to these markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAs well as provisions relating to dairy export markets the bill also extends existing regulation-making powers relating to the New Zealand Dairy Core Database. This is an important industry-good asset containing information on dairy herds and their production performance. The key issues raised in the submissions on the bill related to which export markets should have all restrictions removed and which should continue to be regulated under the new system, the term of allocation for export licences, how long allocated export licences should be valid for, and the scope of powers given to the chief executive of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry for the purposes of monitoring and enforcing compliance with new allocation rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIssues about the current management of the New Zealand Dairy Core Database were also at issue. Of the current 11 designated markets, the bill provides for all export restrictions to be removed from two markets and from parts of four other markets; in other words, these two markets will no longer be designated markets. In the case of four further designated markets, new, narrower definitions are provided for. The bill provides for export licences to all remaining designated markets to be reallocated periodically among New Zealand dairy companies, on the basis of each company\u2019s share of total milk solids collected from New Zealand dairy farmers. The new arrangements will come into effect as the initial allocations made to Fonterra in 2001 expire, from now through to 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ESome submissions to the committee strongly supported removing export restrictions to certain markets, as this would complete the transition begun in 2001, and provide more export opportunities for dairy companies. However, one submission strongly opposed removing export restrictions to some markets, on the basis that this could risk destruction of some value to New Zealand interests. The committee has not recommended any change to which market should remain regulated and which should have restrictions removed. I believe that the committee has considered this matter carefully in the context of the relevant purposes of the principal Act, and I commend its final decisions and recommendations to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe fact is that for some markets, because of the particular import arrangements operating, export licences allocated to multiple participants would not be legally enforceable. The New Zealand Government could therefore not guarantee that licence holders would be able to exercise their rights, even if those rights were actually given. Therefore, the New Zealand Government, by removing export restrictions for these markets, will be providing opportunities for a wider group of New Zealand - based companies to expand their export activities. For one other market the benefits of regulation are not sufficiently large to justify the cost of continuing a regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for export licences to be allocated to multiple participants on a periodic basis. This was to be done annually, for the next 3 years, which was proposed in the bill, but moving to every 3 years\u2014that is, triennial allocations\u2014from 2011 onwards. The proposed triennial allocation period was intended to provide a balance between the interests of growing companies, which would tend to favour a shorter allocation period, of course, and those of established companies, which would tend to favour a longer allocation period. The committee has recommended that export licences should always be allocated annually; in other words, the committee recommends not moving to triennial allocations in later years. As the committee points out, no matter what the allocation period is, companies will be able to predict with relative accuracy what their share of export licences will be, as each allocation approaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill provides a number of powers to the chief executive of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry for the purposes of monitoring and enforcing compliance with the rules of allocation for export licences. These include powers of entry, search, seizure, and the power to require certain information. After seeking clarification of the rationale and scope of these powers, the committee has recommended a number of amendments. These amendments aim to clearly define when and how these powers will apply, and to generally make the monitoring of the compliance regime more workable and effective. I believe they are all in the spirit of good legislative practice, and I am therefore appreciative of the committee\u2019s work in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill extends existing regulation-making powers relating to the New Zealand Dairy Core Database, so that if a copy of the database is vested in an entity other than the current operator, which, of course, is the Livestock Improvement Corporation, regulations can be made to apply to any new entity. This will ensure the ongoing integrity of the database, for the benefit of the whole industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThis bill represents an important step in the evolution of the New Zealand dairy industry. It provides a fair and equitable mechanism for a wider group of companies to access designated dairy export markets. I would like to thank the chairman and members of the Primary Production Committee for their expeditious but thoughtful consideration of the bill and for their timely report, which was tabled on 31 October this year. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a799de32e2e741ff9b3255793eaa8a34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a799de32e2e741ff9b3255793eaa8a34\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E National will be supporting the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) through all its stages, and I thank the Minister for his comments. To my mind this legislation shows the maturity of the dairy industry and the way it has moved a huge amount since the late 1990s, when we considered whether there was a better way than the old mechanism of sale through the New Zealand Dairy Board. Following the initial restructuring of the dairy industry, we saw the formation of a very large company called Fonterra, which collects 95 percent of all milk produced in this country. The company has clearly done very, very well in the last few years, and I congratulate Fonterra on its performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI also share the celebration of dairy farmers who now find themselves seeing a record payout. This is driving the whole of the economy, and if members want further proof of that, they can just look at the comments made by the Governor of the Reserve Bank when he reviewed interest rates a couple of times ago. He made the comment then that interest rates would remain high because of the Fonterra payout. It was interesting that he made those comments as the payout was being predicted by Fonterra, and certainly before any dairy farmers had actually received the benefit of that additional payout. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat the statement proves, and what all New Zealanders need to realise, is that the economy of New Zealand is hugely affected by the success of the whole of the dairy industry. Because of Fonterra\u2019s dominance within that industry, the success of Fonterra affects the livelihood and the standard of living of all New Zealanders. So National is pleased at this further step in the maturing of the dairy industry, and is certainly heartened by the performance of the dairy industry since that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Minister said that the Primary Production Committee handled its role efficiently and reported back on time. Again, it is a disappointment to me to find that we are in urgency\u2014the final rush before Christmas\u2014having to now put this bill through all its stages, when it has been sitting on the Order Paper for the whole of November and could have been done under the normal process. But the legislation must be passed by the end of this year. If members look at the commencement date, which is covered in clause 2, they will see that the legislation will come into effect on the receiving of the Royal assent. We all know that even the Governor-General requires his Christmas holidays, so here we are in urgency making sure that this bill is actually put through. I acknowledge that the whips rang me quite recently to say that we would be changing the Order Paper this morning as a means of making sure that this legislation would go ahead of the taxation legislation. That is how critical it is that the bill be passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI will make a couple of comments about the procedure through the select committee and about one or two of the changes we made. As the Minister said, there is the issue of the allocation period for licences. We heard submissions both ways as to whether it should be on a 3-yearly or a 1-yearly allocation basis. Although we were persuaded in the end that there would be an additional cost associated with an annual allocation process\u2014we did not think those costs would be huge\u2014we were very keen that the industry maintained a system that allowed maximum efficiency within the industry. That means that we are encouraged by the dairy industry restructuring legislation and by the way that new players have been coming into the scene and competing against the dominance of Fonterra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI do not think that Fonterra has much to worry about, because it is such a dominant player, but these new players\u2014the likes of Synlait and Open Country Cheese\u2014have been good for the industry by giving the farmers of New Zealand other choices as to where they may decide to send their milk. We were keen to make sure that the allocation process reflected what we predict, from the select committee point of view, will be ongoing new entrants into this industry. This has to be good for farmers and also for the whole of the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe committee was certainly also concerned, initially, about issues around the powers of entry, search, and seizure. We put a lot of effort into this, but at the end of the day the committee was convinced that whilst the measures within the legislation are quite severe, they are necessary. Under no circumstances can the Government entertain not being in a position to carefully monitor compliance with the actual figures by which these quota allocations are finally made. They will be made on the basis of the milk collected from individual farmers. On that basis it will be a direct proportional share of the dairy industry, and the Government needs to have the ability to make sure that that system is sound and complied with by the industry\u2014not that I suspect any of the players who are responsible would attempt to cheat that system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe final issue I will touch on is the core database. We received submissions\u2014particularly from one company, Ambreed New Zealand\u2014that argued that what is in place now has not delivered fairly, as was expected by the select committee when it heard the original dairy industry restructuring legislation back in early 2000 or 2001. Having listened to the arguments from Ambreed, I sympathise with the position it finds itself in. As it clearly said to us, price equals access, and I think there is an issue around whether we got that legislation right in the original Dairy Industry Restructuring Act. Having said that, I point out that the committee was quickly made aware that the very issue raised by Ambreed was actually outside the scope of the bill. I think it is important that Parliament notes the words in the report from the select committee: \u201CThis matter, however, is outside the scope of the bill, but needs further investigation.\u201D I suspect that over time that will occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis legislation is necessary. It has to be passed by the end of this year\u2014in other words, within the next few days so that the Governor-General can put his signature to it and then himself have a holiday. I think the select committee did a very admirable job with this complex legislation. This legislation will put the dairy industry in good heart for the future. This industry is also of vital importance to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u002282071ff9c88e48a49fe860ff96780445\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282071ff9c88e48a49fe860ff96780445\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a very brief call on the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2). As the previous speaker said, this is a bill on which the Primary Production Committee took a very bipartisan approach. We all worked together on it for the farmers of this country and for the industry. We are very pleased it is to be passed before the end of this year, because it will be applicable from early next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThe bill removes the restrictions of exporters through to markets, and, as was highlighted before, it gives us a reference period for determining the allocation. That means the data will span three seasons rather than two, which was originally in the bill. Also, it highlights the power of entry, search, and seizure of documents in the workplace and talks about the control of a core database. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EOverall, it is a very good bill. As the Minister said before, it is really an evolution of the dairy industry from 2001 onwards. It will certainly allow exporters a much better and more streamlined opportunity to export our dairy products around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EWith those few words, I commend this bill to the House and look forward to the deliberations on it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f909ac442e924e8aa69d5d8cc4c1bde7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f909ac442e924e8aa69d5d8cc4c1bde7\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E As those listening may have ascertained, there is a great deal of unanimity on the Dairy Industry Restructuring Bill (No 2), so I will not be taking a very long call. I think there are some salient things that need to be said, and I will run through those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe first is that the Primary Production Committee, under the chair of David Carter, continues the tradition of looking for the best outcomes in solving whatever comes before it. There is always a great deal of goodwill and unanimity about what we end up doing, and this bill is no exception. We recognise the significance and importance of the dairy industry to New Zealand, and we gave earnest consideration to the issues raised in the Dairy Industry Restructuring Bill (No 2). This bill was quite specific. It was not wide ranging, and, as has been suggested, some submitters wished to bring up matters that were not contained within the bill. Whether or not we are sympathetic to them, we are limited in what we can and cannot do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister of Agriculture introduced this second reading, he made a comment that I think we can identify with. He said that this bill is part of the evolution of the dairy industry. The dairy industry is New Zealand\u2019s most significant exporter. Fonterra is our biggest company; it generates huge amounts of revenue through exports. But the dairy industry is an evolving industry, and one of the interesting things is that we have seen that it does have the maturity to actually advance. It is not trapped in any kind of time warp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EBesides Fonterra, there are now seven other players, even though their combined mass occupies about 5 percent of the dairy industry. The provision allowing those players to operate is what we actually had to deal with, and the allocation of opportunity in the area of export markets. There are perhaps four conditions that come into decisions about this matter. There are the conditions and rules of the importing country, the desires and expectations of the exporters, the desires and expectation of the producers, and the international rules that exist under the World Trade Organization. All those things kind of come together, and we had to look at allocation of specific markets. Other speakers have outlined the issues surrounding that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAs David Carter said, one of the issues that perhaps has a bit of traction but is not within the bill is the way in which the core database is operated. His comment that price is access sums it up. I think an issue that the industry needs to address is whether what exists now is serving the industry in the best possible way. If the industry is to continue to progress, it needs to have all the information in the database relatively available to other players; otherwise, we are limiting the genetic resources, the sharing of information, and all of those matters. As I said, this matter is outside the scope of the bill and therefore was something we could not consider. However, it may well be addressed at a different time in a different forum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the Minister is prepared to accept all the amendments recommended by the select committee. We gave quite considerable consideration to how this measure can best operate, and I think we are all pretty much happy with the bill as it is reported back in this second reading. As has been stated, National will support this bill through all its stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00220ac81faa05224b408ada34ab83ae0f20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ac81faa05224b408ada34ab83ae0f20\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is important that I make a contribution to this debate. I want to put it on the record from the start that the company I am involved with is a Fonterra supplier and a shareholder in LIC, but the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) is going to enable greater competition in the dairy industry, which I think is fundamental. The important point I want to make around those two companies is that there are seven players outside of Fonterra, albeit they are small players in the overall dairy industry. But it is important that the markets are opened up and that Fonterra does not have a monopoly over them. I think that that is what this bill sets out to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI also make the particular point that here we are, at 20 to 12 during the day. We are in urgency\u2014we do not normally sit at this time of the day\u2014to put this bill through Parliament because it is important. But I say to the Minister and the other members over on the other side of the Chamber in the Labour Government, and to those members who prop up the Labour Government, that this bill has been lurking around on the Order Paper for about the last month. Yet here we are, having to put this legislation through in a mad panic under urgency. It is important for the cornerstone of our economy that it goes through today\u2014extremely important\u2014and we will support it in going through. But I make the point that the Government has had to slam the House into urgency because it is so hopeless at managing the things on its Order Paper. This is a hopeless Government. It has had a month to get this legislation through, but here we are today, at 20 to 12, having to put it through under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAnother important point that I make on this bill\u2014and I will probably make further contributions on it when we get into the Committee stage\u2014is that it will allow export licences to be allocated on the basis of a proportion of the milk solids collected from dairy farmers, with a minimum threshold of 0.1 percent of the total milk solids collected. Those export rights will become available between 2008 and 2010 on a yearly basis. That is a very important point to make there. Those rights outside that period will become available from 2011 on a 3-yearly basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other important point, which has been touched on but which I think it is worth making a further contribution on, is around the core database that LIC tends to have a monopoly over in the current regime. It was a little outside this bill to get into the nitty-gritty of that, but I think that with Mr Carter\u2019s chairmanship of the Primary Production Committee, it may be something that the select committee seeks to have a further look at in 2008. It is not necessarily fair that price dictates the level of service for the other minority companies that are trying to get involved in providing a service and dealing with the core database. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ESo those are some issues that I think we need to make a contribution on. I would like to get the Minister, in the Committee stage, to talk about the definition of milk solids, because that would be an important contribution. I think the Minister should tell the House that whether \u201Cmilk solids\u201D is written as one word or as two words is significant, because the words have a different definition. So it would be worthy of the Minister in the Committee stage to make a contribution and explain the definition and why that is so, for the benefit of listeners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENational is supporting the passage of this legislation through the House. We wonder why we need to be in urgency to get it through, because if the Government were organised we would not need to be ramming it through under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b795d21895bf4e89b61be756bbf1695c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b795d21895bf4e89b61be756bbf1695c\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f2bd20067c546f6aaeadfb1c093a632\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go\u2014the Labour leftie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c4f78b1db4470f8bf4b392229adb68\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: In reply to David Carter, I say we will pay it back, on our own terms and when we think it is appropriate\u2014with the appropriate hype and all the rest of it as members would expect. So I tell those members they will not miss it when we do it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244bf742b459343f8833bc9b1faf97837\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: Go home and have a look at the news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297399874e30245e7b8c4e6df1ecbd85f\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and they should keep an eye on the news, and they will get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think that it is right to say that New Zealand First supports this Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2). I was listening to the previous speaker Nathan Guy, and I just want to run over the things that have made the New Zealand dairy industry great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655d31941d56455a8600903a6a73f473\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of people want to run over you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022162a68d448654300bd3ea1ee96a75cc2\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I know that a lot of people want to run over me, and I know the reasons they want to. But I will talk about what made the New Zealand dairy industry great, and why we in New Zealand First have concerns about it. A lot of it is encompassed in this bill, but not in the detail. This bill allows the transfer of quota that was shifted from the New Zealand Dairy Board to Fonterra, and that will now go further out to other dairy companies. I will give a couple of illustrations of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand dairy industry has done well, because we have ensured that it stayed in the ownership of New Zealand farmers and in the ownership of New Zealand, and we have made no bones about the fact that we would protect that industry in any way, shape, or form that we could. It has been a longstanding joke that if the Dairy Board of the day got into trouble it would come to this Parliament, talk to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Agriculture, and ensure that laws were put in place to guard the dairy industry. Now we are seeing proposals to split up the dairy industry and to open it up to overseas owners and wider ownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EPeople do not remember, and many people do not understand, that it is the quotas we hold, and the quotas that have allowed us to get into markets\u2014mainly in Europe\u2014that have provided the cream on top of the cake for the dairy industry. Those quotas were held and jealously guarded by the Dairy Board and by Fonterra. Now they are going wider, and I hope that the companies that pick them up respect that, and guard them as jealously and as carefully as has been done in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EDairy farmers, traditionally, have understood something that beef farmers, sheep farmers, and wool farmers in New Zealand have not understood. They have understood the value of vertical integration. Individual farmers have understood that they could not market their products themselves, and they could not turn milk into cheese themselves. So they hired \u201Csuits\u201D or, in the early days, white-coated people, dairy factory managers, to do those things while the sheep, beef, and wool industries allowed overseas interests to dominate the market. They became price-takers, and the Vesteys, Hellabys, and all the rest of them clipped the ticket on everything. So that made those industries that allowed overseas companies to dominate the marketing of their products weaker than the dairy industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe dairy industry kept our marketing in-house, we kept it in New Zealand, and we make no bones about it. That has been the strength of the dairy industry. Dairy farmers have always understood that they had to hire marketers, they had to market manufacturing people, and they had to market their products in other countries while retaining ownership, retaining control, and making sure the returns thereof came back to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EA couple of smaller dairy factories are starting up around the country as we speak. One is called New Zealand Dairies Ltd, in Studholme, not far from Timaru, but we are seeing in those companies a lack of capital. We are seeing them go to the people they are selling to. In this case it is a bunch of Russians. I do not mean a bunch of Russians in that they are not honest; I mean\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228176af5b95a349d5a119e34189375e07\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Xenophobia! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995efa459e32473090d97be6a01eceda\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. This is a fact, and these people have put money into this company and now want to control it. I say to Mr Carter and to this House that xenophobia is what has made the dairy industry great. The dairy industry did not follow the stupid, naive market views that were followed by the meat industry, which is now giving profits to everybody except farmers; or the wool industry that is now on its knees, giving profits to everybody except farmers; or the sheepmeat industry, which is now giving profits to everybody except farmers. That is what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022288255726e6d42659a5e093d336bb988\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: That is rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228815666bdbcb4211a66b25d0af81fd19\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no\u2014it is not rubbish, because the dairy industry that once was the poor cousin of agriculture now dominates agriculture and is earning in excess of 20 percent of our export earnings\u2014because of xenophobia. We decided we would keep this industry within this country and we could control it, and we should still be doing that. We should not allow other countries or other people to come in and take the profits away from our farmers. We have the ability in this country to provide the money we need for this industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2414f557114d1a8ad3e67e57d5fcc6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Stalin!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117ce8dc994141aea86b270cb39ed07f\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: This is not about Stalin. I would just like people who are listening to know that the National members are laughing and mocking in a way that seems quite sad to me, because I grew up in a National Party that took the ownership of the dairy industry seriously. It believed that the ownership of the dairy industry should be in the hands of New Zealand farmers. That was the National Party I grew up in, and now National members mock me for making this speech to say that this industry should be New Zealand - owned. I am not saying that Fonterra should have a total stranglehold on the industry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf0de867ca54c2b81a7df1244759c62\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: You just did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c56fe56671b8448fb8b0bdba7689efe0\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I am saying there should be legislation ensuring that whoever starts up dairy farming in this country is a New Zealand company with New Zealand ownership. I hear Mr Eric Roy, who now comes to this Parliament to earn the substantial part of his living. Mr Roy owns a big sheep farm down out of Gore but it does not make enough money for him, so he has to come to this Parliament as an MP to supplement his income, and now he sits here and mocks me when I am trying to protect the dairy industry. Instead of flitting around the world, why did he not involve himself in his industry and protect it while the dairy people were protecting theirs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305818248fe24912b7a13953d6a1b18c\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll put my record up against yours any day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323959eac92a4ed6b9e8543c92396e44\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member can put his record up against mine. I would like to see that, actually, because my record on dairy company directorship is a damn sight better than Mr Eric Roy\u2019s record on his pitiful sheep-farming career. I tell members that if they look at the returns going to sheep farmers and at the returns going to dairy farmers, then therein lies the story. There is no need to look further. But because of a philosophical belief in unfettered markets, Mr Eric Roy is happy to see the dairy industry go to whoever is the highest bidder. We in New Zealand First are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa23499898ac4748b465df45b48b2e25\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea19538e9d146d5bb7094b0714010f3\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Carter can say \u201Crubbish\u201D and we will hear his contribution, but Mr Carter is happy for other people beyond these shores to involve themselves in the New Zealand dairy industry. We in New Zealand First are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022255a0a513995451482a050c03adb9c24\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022286334f6503543dd8fda04ab24c5e363\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Dairy Industry Restructuring Act 2001\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00225416614e872d4783ac97e40e7e7d73b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225416614e872d4783ac97e40e7e7d73b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think the important section of the bill is around clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D. This legislation has to be passed by 31 December 2007. The date is important because it was the original date on which the allocation to Fonterra of these licences was set. The history goes back to the issue around quota allocation being very difficult to determine at the time of the dairy industry\u2019s restructuring in 2001, when the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act was going through Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI point out that although the Act went through Parliament in 2001, the discussions on the deregistration of the New Zealand Dairy Board and the opening up and restructuring of the industry actually commenced through the late 1990s. I think Parliament should record today the efforts made by a former Minister of Agriculture, the Hon John Luxton, who drove this process and initiated it. It was something that at the time was not widely accepted by some of the dairy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a6f8b97fc54191abc15816872af653\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: While he and Wyatt Creech were starting up a cheese factory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d5625b6e7245d5b13aff446ce47c81\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Woolerton says that they managed to start up a cheese factory, which was a very successful initiative. It was allowed by this very legislation, and it is something that that member ought to applaud instead of knocking. But that member is at the stage when he is living in the last century, I assure members. Mr Woolerton is living in the last century, but I just say to him\u2014I have a few things I want to say, but I do not want to use up my time\u2014that this industry has been moving on for a long time. It is time that \u201CRip Van Winkle\u201D woke up and took the chance to look at what has happened, because we should be very proud of this industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton, that one of the interesting little developments in the Primary Production Committee was to be found in the definitions. We found, to our surprise, that the whole of the quota issue is determined by the amount of milk solids collected on New Zealand farms. Through this process we found, to our absolute amazement, that the word \u201Cmilksolids\u201D\u2014and I say it as one word because we found there was a reason why it had to be one word rather than two words\u2014had never been defined in legislation. So we have included that definition to make sure it is there in the legislation so that any subsequent allocation is made on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe other issue I will touch on, which I did not mention in my first contribution, is around the calculation of quota and the ability of companies now to do that over a period of three seasons. This was something that struck the select committee. The select committee members know, because of the climate change issue as much as anything else, about the issue of droughts affecting particular regions. It is certainly something that is on the minds of the select committee members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFor example, if Westland were to be devastated by a drought in any one particular year, then more than that year would be affected in production terms. The effect of that drought could flow over 1 year, 2 years, or even 3 years. The select committee recognised that and has therefore given the ability for the calculation of quotas to be on the basis of recognising the effect on more than 1 year or 2 years\u2019 production, but in actual fact 3 years\u2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI think those are the main points, but one that is certainly of annoyance to members on this side of the Chamber is the fact that the Government, after having had this bill on the Order Paper for some time, has not been able to move it in normal sitting time. Here we are now in urgency, driving the bill through all its stages so that the Governor-General can get it on his desk prior to the Christmas break, sign it, and make sure it is done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis issue has been around since early 2000. The Government has had 7 years, and now here we are, in the very last, dying days of this Parliament\u2014in fact, in the dying days of this Government, I suggest\u2014rushing it through all its stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4c06729ce44ecb97fe1254ff82f276\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Dream on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486afd91c33746f6841fe735f785b96e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Ashraf Choudhary laughs, but he is the only member on that side of the Chamber who is laughing. At least this bill is finally being attended to, and for that I congratulate the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00224f63903169544af190af4795dc6e36c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f63903169544af190af4795dc6e36c2\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E As has been suggested, there is a great deal of unanimity about this Dairy Industry Restructuring Bill (No 2). However, it is appropriate that we need perhaps to highlight one or two natural issues because, as the Minister said, we are in a process of evolution and we may want to come back and look at some of the things recorded in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI draw members\u2019 attention to clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, in Part 1. I note the somewhat vitriolic attack on my good self by Doug Woolerton in the earlier stages of this debate about the need to be xenophobic. If he is prepared to look at who is an eligible participant within the interpretation provision of this legislation, he must be shaking in his shoes. There are two qualifications to be a participant: an entity must hold an export licence and it must collect at least 0.1 percent of the milk production of New Zealand. For a member who is claiming that we need to be xenophobic and need to protect the monopolistic structure, he is allowing and sanctifying in this legislation a provision that someone who holds one-thousandth of the production of New Zealand and an export licence is out there competing in the export field. I am sure this must be of great concern to Mr Doug Woolerton, who has this view that it is extraordinarily necessary to be a monopoly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI would just make the point that we are in a state of evolution. That is good, because we cannot stand still\u2014we go either forwards or backwards. I believe this legislation is going forward. But the time may well come when we say: \u201CHang on, we used to have a monopoly and now it is an oligopoly.\u201D As I said in the second reading, as far as I am aware\u2014someone may correct me\u2014seven players are now contesting with Fonterra. At the moment this is not an issue, because those players only have to have one-thousandth of the production in order to be in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae7237ee4d5a489fb8713e64b01bcae8\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: They could be Russians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022656c7915ec1f4bd798223a8075cefe85\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Some of them could be anybody. Yes, that is a very good point, I say to Mr Carter. For example, New Zealand Dairies, which is situated at Studholme, is a Russian investment in the New Zealand dairy industry. Mr Woolerton, who is claiming the xenophobic approach to monopolistic management of the dairy industry, must be gravely concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cbd4c5344da4dddb6c69d0a3a34f050\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: I said that\u2019s what made this industry great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5965b9423546fb8a9d7faff477995e\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, Mr Woolerton must be worried that the industry is turning on its head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ab067b638d46689685b8d210337bae\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, I\u2019m worried. You\u2019ve seen my statements all over the place. You\u2019re not worried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a5e13d929b4a189bcb5949141301a4\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: But he is still voting for this provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe second point I wish to raise is in relation to section 28A, which is to be inserted into the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act by clause 12. Here we give a delegated responsibility in terms of transferring export licences. I commend to members the amendments that are in place. One of the things we tend to do with quite a degree of abandon at times is to put these delegated responsibilities into legislation that states that we can do whatever we want by Order in Council. To transfer a licence is quite a significant issue, and although it is appropriate that it be done by Order in Council, it is also appropriate that we have a very clear methodology and process so that there is adequate consultation and adequate checks and balances. That is why I commend to members that the amendments in this bill are passed, because the Primary Production Committee has given due consideration to all of those elements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe third point I would raise again in this Committee debate relates to the elements to the database. Although the dairy industry is a leading light in many respects in the New Zealand pastoral industry, in terms of genetic gains it is not the leader. The leader now in terms of production through genetic gains is the sheep industry. I believe that one of the key factors is the fact that the sheep industry has open access to its database. Yet the dairy industry has said that it is under the Livestock Improvement Corporation and, yes, there can be access, but the access costs so much per cow. One of the members of the select committee may remind me what the figure is, but I think it is about $2 a cow. As David Carter said earlier, price is access. If I were a dairy farmer and I said that the genetic property of the Livestock Improvement Corporation is the only one we are really interested in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022da64e30ce4bb4b87bcb512962a208ce2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da64e30ce4bb4b87bcb512962a208ce2\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak in the Committee stage of the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2), and I take great confidence and comfort from the speakers who have spoken previously. I want to deal with two areas, one of which is the integrity that is required around a quota system. It is very, very important, because we mention the farmer a lot\u2014the producer of milk solids and suchlike\u2014but the quota is owned by the Crown, and is part of the process of our getting free trade or privileged access to various markets. On that basis, whatever a quota management scheme is about, it has to have integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen we look at new section 29A, inserted by clause 14, we understand just how structured and how principled this process is. That cannot be overlaboured, because we are an export nation; we export 85 percent of what we produce in this country. It is very difficult when we hear the speaker from New Zealand First talking about Fortress New Zealand and that kind of mentality, because, in actual fact, we have to continually argue for the removal of barriers. Quota access, by its very nature, is privileged nation access. It is a very fine line. Effectively, in the world of trade, New Zealand runs two arguments, and it is very important that we are seen to be very thorough and have quota management processes that have integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen we go through section 29A to section 29J, we find that the chief executive has some wide, sweeping powers to be able to go in and check the data, the record-keeping, of anybody who has access to that export market. We see that, at the end of the day, if any of those laws and regulations that underpin the integrity of the quota system are breached, the fines are quite substantial. We see that the fines have been extended under this bill up to $200,000, with a further fine not exceeding $10,000 for every day or part of a day during which an offence is continued. So there is a high level of accountability. That is good to see, and I myself think it has to be there, because from time to time people from the dairy industry have been dragged before various countries\u2019 officials to explain their actions. That sometimes can have an effect upon other quota markets that are held. When we look at the dairy industry we see that this quota is not large as a proportion of the whole of the dairy industry\u2014it is rather small. But in the sheepmeat industry, a very large part of the access to Europe is under quota. So I am pleased, and I take great comfort from the way that this bill progressed through the select committee. I am comfortable that it is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to talk about is the Livestock Improvement Corporation\u2019s core database. This issue is something we need to get sorted, because in itself it can actually be a barrier to improving the productivity of this nation\u2014and not only within the dairy industry. As there is more demand for our products to be scrutinised, we will have to get into areas such as animal identification, and the Livestock Improvement Corporation\u2019s database is a vehicle whereby we can identify the very cuts of meat that people are consuming. The Livestock Improvement Corporation has raised an issue here\u2014we see that it came from AmBreed New Zealand originally, which is a competitor within the market\u2014and it is important to realise that there are other valuable aspects that the Livestock Improvement Corporation\u2019s animal database can contribute to. As a nation we will continue to export a lot of what we produce, and when we consider that 85 percent of what we produce overall goes overseas, it is important that we do it well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI commend the select committee for processing this legislation in a timely fashion. This issue is something that those in rural areas have been very concerned about since 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a85045c96bb5412fa53b4ce8360d7cfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a85045c96bb5412fa53b4ce8360d7cfd\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to cover a couple of points made by Eric Roy, when he mockingly said I would be quivering in my boots at this legislation. Of course, he is right, because I and some of my colleagues voted against the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act, the one put into this Chamber by Mr John Luxton when he was the Minister for Food, Fibre, Biosecurity and Border Control. It broke up the monopoly of the Dairy Board and allowed Fonterra to become a monopoly, to a degree. Before that it was not possible to start up a private dairy company, as we know. While Mr Luxton was changing the law for the dairy industry, he was proceeding with plans to start up his own dairy factory, and that is what he did. The National Party thinks that that is good business. I do not think it is the right thing to do. Yes, Mr Luxton obeyed the letter of the law, as we do, but did he do what was morally right? No, he did not, and neither did his colleague Mr Wyatt Creech. He also did not do what was morally right, but now they both have a very successful dairy company, which they are about to lose control of. Mr Talley is going to own that dairy company in Matamata, and Mr Luxton and Mr Creech will do very well out of that. So I will not be going to great lengths to thank Mr Luxton for the Dairy Board restructuring, or, indeed, for any of the legislation that followed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First do worry about those sorts of things, because the laws that allowed the dairy industry to become huge and great and internationally competitive are now bit by bit being dismantled. Part of that is the record-keeping that we hear the members of the National Party talking about in LIC, based in Hamilton, which has an amazing database. It is one of the most amazing outfits in the world when it comes to genetics for dairy cows. There have been many assaults on the Livestock Improvement Corporation, which is what it was known as then. People have wanted to get access to its database and access to its information for years, not for the assistance of the dairy industry and not to progress our enterprises, but for their own material gain. That has been staved off, but for how much longer, one wonders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe arguments are always along the lines of those we have heard today: that opening up access to that information to everybody and his or her mother\u2019s dog will help things in New Zealand and in other countries. We in New Zealand First want to know how it will do that, because we do not believe it will. We think that information should be protected for the benefit of the people who paid for it, for the people who set it up, and for the people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272afdc1bad5b43b2a63b97e0c1927931\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s xenophobic!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db427975902f4025b2e4b20265213347\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not xenophobic; it is called looking after one\u2019s best interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfbfd3dc098b45609cfc62aa17ef0684\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s communism too!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ddb87c802248108b92afef3ac41d79\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not about communism. New Zealand First supports PGG Wrightson and the sort of enterprises it is involved in overseas, such as operating dairy farms in Chile and that sort of thing, because hopefully the money will return here. But we do not support people who come here and take our money back to their country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be0d298595024ceb9047ab716f910609\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so we don\u2019t have reciprocity. It\u2019s a one-way street.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed08263e3f54accac4d2b43d8ef5511\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: We do have a one-way street. Those members over there used to believe in reciprocity in the sheep industry, and they used to believe in a fair go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI remember my father telling me about the days when the farmers in the South Island would toddle across to Tooley Street\u2014I do not like to bring the Chair in, but this is of interest to people, I am sure\u2014and the English of the day used to treat them to drinks, look after them, and give their wives little presents. And they would do the farmers like a dinner. My forebears in the dairy industry thought that that was for toffs and idiots who did not know how the world worked. We believed that an industry should be tied up by those who owned it and should operate for their benefit. But no, no, the people across the Chamber who come from sheep and beef stock backgrounds believed that we should give the wealthy English lords and ladies their cut of the pie. They have done so, and they still do today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI hope those people are happy about that, because in the dairy industry we think that is nonsense. In the dairy industry, we think that is a rip-off. In the dairy industry, we think that is just childish, naive behaviour. We think the dairy industry should be run for the benefit of the farmers, not for the benefit of the ticket-clippers throughout the world. That is the way the dairy industry has been run and that is what has made it great, over and above other industries that have been going a lot longer than it and that were in fact seen as the premier industries in the agricultural business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First reluctantly supports this bill. We make the points I have made: that it is certainly a sad day when we see people gradually losing control of their industry, supported by the National Party. [Interruption] While I am making this speech I am being mocked by the very people whom farmers put into this Parliament, thinking they would support farmers. I am here to tell farmers not to rely on the National Party for the support of their industry, sadly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00224204291ec82b4fd19c03f2c78de4b612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224204291ec82b4fd19c03f2c78de4b612\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to support the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2); it is a good bill. I will respond to some of Mr Woolerton\u2019s comments. It seems to us that this is a good bill, because I do not think that farmers\u2019 interests and producers\u2019 interests are served by having only a monopoly exporting into those quota markets. If we look at the history of the world, then we will see that it has always been smaller companies with an idea that have come along, have innovated, and have provided the new markets and the new ways of doing things, and they have provided for an increase in prosperity for everyone. That is why we support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI have to say that I was somewhat amazed when I listened to Mr Woolerton\u2019s comments. He does know the industry, having worked in it, but I would suggest to Mr Woolerton that if xenophobia worked, as he says it does, then countries like Albania, North Korea, and Cuba would be rich and prosperous. In a country of 4 million people, we cannot eat all the cheese we produce, we cannot drink all the milk we produce, and we cannot use all the primary produce we produce, and that is why xenophobia does not work. We have to be open to the world. We have to like people from other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMr Woolerton has an idea to build a fortress around our industry, where we would not change anything, we would not allow any competition or choice, and we would not innovate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641274fe21e548fb9fd93e8fa4912d31\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, I didn\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c8711df4c44e15b2559a580961f385\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Woolerton says he did not say that, but the implication of having one buyer and it being run as a farmer cooperative is precisely that. Mr Woolerton said that, yes, New Zealand First has the view that we should have a fortress around New Zealand and that we should protect ourselves from foreigners. We also learnt that Mr Woolerton thinks that anyone who disagrees with New Zealand First and Mr Woolerton is, somehow, an idiot who does not understand the issues as well as he does. He would rather say that than debate the arguments and ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI have also learnt this about Mr Woolerton, and I think this is a sad day. When Mr Woolerton disagrees with someone, it is because that person has ulterior motives. I think it is a sad day when we attack former members of this House for having ulterior motives for what they do. We might disagree with them, but I do not think we have seen people here with ulterior motives promoting legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI make this point, again to Mr Woolerton. Having people who are doing well in business and making money is good for New Zealand, it is good for the farming industry, and we want a successful and prosperous dairy industry all the way along, at every step of the way. That is what will make the dairy industry successful into the 21st century and beyond. The idea that we can somehow have a locked-up little market, where one company sells to the world and that will be good for farmers, has to be absurd. Like I have said, I say to Mr Woolerton that if that worked, then Albania would be rich, North Korea would be rich, and Cuba would be rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072550c5a49047eba9ac64b478109a7a\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And Doug would be president.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb95cf27b0c3497da89ee01f364573bd\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: And Doug could be the president of those countries for life. So the ACT party rises to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI learnt one other thing about New Zealand First members. Here they are, railing against this bill, and I have learnt that they are xenophobic and proud of it. I learnt that they want to have a fortress around New Zealand, that they believe in monopolies, that they attack people who disagree with them as having ulterior motives and for being stupid, and that this bill is a disaster for the dairy industry. I then learnt one other thing: New Zealand First will vote for the bill, along with every one of us. Thank you, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00222d2ec43a3a5a4902843c37cf72c61893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d2ec43a3a5a4902843c37cf72c61893\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Because of some of the comments made, I should apologise profusely, having been in Parliament for 24 years, 9 of them under National Governments. Never before has there been urgency before Christmas to push things through, so I have to acknowledge that this is an extraordinary precedent, and it is probably due an apology! Those members who have not been here as long as I have will know that this is all correct! I am putting this through to the Tui ads, so they can say \u201CYeah, right!\u201D at the end of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIn a slightly more serious vein, I want to move an amendment on the advice of parliamentary counsel, which I have discussed with the Chairman of the Committee. The amendment will see a minor change in wording, but there will be a different meaning. I refer to page 18, paragraph (b) in clause 29, which has the wording: \u201C(b) the right to access documentation relating to the application for a search warrant and the exercise of a search power under the Official Information Act 1982.\u201D I am advised by parliamentary counsel that the correct wording should be \u201Cthe right under the Official Information Act 1982 to access documentation relating to the application for a search warrant and the exercise of a search power \u2026\u201D. I am sure the select committee meant exactly that, but I am advised that it would better to have that wording rather than the original wording. Thank you, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00224e30865f5d6141f5859e4fed1b6040f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e30865f5d6141f5859e4fed1b6040f5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will certainly accept that amendment as proposed now by Mr Anderton. I just want to tidy up a comment that Mr Anderton made. It is not clause 29; it is actually clause 14, which inserts new section 29K(6)(b). Just for the record, it is clause 14 that is being amended. But I think it is a very sensible amendment. I am surprised the select committee did not pick it up in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 171 and the following amendment to clause 14 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to Part 1 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b) of new section 29K(6) and substitute the following new paragraph:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe right, under the Official Information Act 1982, to access the documentation relating to the application for a search warrant and the exercise of a search power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d7b0cf9c3f5451c8583cca28c5acbbb\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6b0fa20c81e40a2871ee25c83e09d12\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af66eeefb62149f9ab664074cc19e2d0\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u002270fed16853684e4d96ffa47c770c71a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270fed16853684e4d96ffa47c770c71a0\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a contribution today that I think is very important in the Chamber. I want to talk just on the schedule. The Primary Production Committee worked hard on this to get it right, and I think it is a fair point that I am about to make. The director-general or chief executive of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry technically allocates the export licences. We need to be mindful that the New Zealand dairy industry is primarily based on pasture-fed diet, and primarily our animals are outdoors all year round. We all know that climatic changes occur. In parts of New Zealand we can have a drought, and we are currently experiencing a mini-drought on the East Coast of the North Island. If we think back, in recent times we have had floods, we have had snowstorms, and we have had weather bombs throughout the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe significant point I want to make to the Committee is that the select committee worked hard and has come up with the provision in schedule 5B that allows those seeking an export licence to have their historical data analysed out to three seasons. The point I am making is that if we have a weather bomb, and farmers are constrained, as we know can be the case, that flows through to the heifer replacements\u2014that is, the young cows that are going to come into the herd. It needs to be broad in its approach, so that we looking at not just one season or two seasons, but we are taking that data analysis out to three seasons, which I think is very, very important. I acknowledge the hard work, under David Carter\u2019s leadership, of those members on the select committee who do own a set of gumboots, and who have come through a grassroots upbringing, like some of us in the National Party, who were well aware of the point that this is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI turn to those members on the other side of the Chamber who were on the select committee and who have not come through that process. I am not sure whether there is one farmer left in the Labour caucus who would even be aware of that point. So this is a significant point in this bill that will mean it is fair, right across the board, that when the director-general or the chief executive of the ministry is technically allocating quota, he or she can look back across those three seasons of data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f41b2e1216e438fa195d82c27913bd4\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e451f4890e4542c4865a4043d2809c18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e451f4890e4542c4865a4043d2809c18\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. The bill was introduced into the House, as I said during the Committee stage, on 14 August this year. It was read for the first time on 21 August, then referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration. The committee tabled its report on 31 October. The bill has now had its second reading and has passed through the Committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand dairy industry has become the country\u2019s largest and most important export industry. For the year ended 31 March 2007, the dairy industry contributed a total export value of $8.4 billion, representing 25 percent of total merchandise exports. New Zealand dairy products are exported to 152 countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAt the farm level, dairy accounts for an estimated 35 percent of the agricultural sector\u2019s GDP and 2 percent of total GDP. When we include dairy manufacturing and the dairy industry\u2019s contribution to other sectors, such as wholesale trade, we see that the wider dairy industry\u2019s contribution to total GDP is around 7 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill is the obvious next step in the industry\u2019s transition to a new structure without the monopoly powers of a statutory marketing board. In the 6 years since the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act was passed, the industry has shown itself to be extremely capable of not only surviving but also thriving in this less regulated environment. This bill will provide the industry with certainty about designated export markets, and will therefore allow industry players to plan for the future with confidence. I believe that this is why the industry has expressed general support for the approach taken in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe industry has shown itself to be a highly successful organisation and industry sector in reaching world markets and helping New Zealand to be well positioned for the future. The framework contained in this bill will allow all industry players to participate fully in that success and continue to position the industry well on the world stage. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002217cba36e6a5d48219383799201bd9afa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217cba36e6a5d48219383799201bd9afa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) and congratulates the Government on finally bringing this matter before the House today. I think that when people analyse the contributions made in the debate we have had in the second reading, the Committee stage, and now the final reading in quick succession, the interesting Hansard will, of course, be that of the New Zealand First member Doug Woolerton. I thought I would make just one or two points, because a lot of the information he stated in his contribution\u2014which was absolutely incoherent, I might add\u2014is incorrect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFirst of all, Mr Woolerton congratulated the dairy industry and noted its huge progress over the last decade, and I support that. But he then went on to criticise the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act of 2001, which led to the formation of Fonterra. So in one breath he was criticising Fonterra and its performance, and in the next breath he was saying what wonderful progress this company has made for the benefit of all New Zealanders. I find that logic very, very difficult to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMr Woolerton then spoke against two of my former colleagues in this Parliament. I am referring to the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech and the Hon John Luxton. He said that both those people drove through the dairy industry restructuring legislation in 2001, and he implied quite definitely that they did that for personal gain. For the sake of the record, I say that neither of those gentlemen was in Parliament in 2001 and they could not have been involved in the debate. They were not in Parliament. To be absolutely fair to them, I note that by that stage they had retired from Parliament. They saw an opportunity under the dairy restructuring to set up a very successful dairy process called Open Country Cheese, and I congratulate them on their ability to establish that company. It has been a significant contributor to the very regional economy that Mr Woolerton came from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe final point is that Mr Woolerton, having railed against the Dairy Industry Restructuring Bill (No 2), concluded his remarks by saying that the bill was dreadful legislation but that he would vote for it. I think that just goes to show something about Mr Woolerton\u2019s career. He has been involved in the National Party and in New Zealand First, and he now completes his parliamentary career as a true and committed member of Helen Clark\u2019s Labour team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u0022bebe06d9d3ff4faa8e076212e60ee60d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bebe06d9d3ff4faa8e076212e60ee60d\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call. First, I thank David Carter for his good chairmanship of the Primary Production Committee. We work very closely and in a bipartisan way on that committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EEarlier on, Nathan Guy suggested that the Minister should probably define the term \u201Cmilk solids\u201D. I will define that term for the House. As a scientist I guess it is probably my job to explain these things. We have two definitions. \u201CMilksolid\u201D as one word is milk solid that contains milk fat plus protein. The definition of the second term, which consists of two words, \u201Cmilk solids\u201D, is milk protein and fat plus other elements in the milk. So two clearly defined words have been used, I say for the sake of clarification. The farmers get paid on the basis of milksolid\u2014one word\u2014which is milk fat and milk protein, and, of course, the levies to the dairy farmers are also based on that definition. With that explanation I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a03a310c4246448797e073b62d9a9251\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a03a310c4246448797e073b62d9a9251\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I too will take a brief call in the third reading debate of the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2). It is not so much that there are concerns that some things are not being covered, but that all that is said in the debating process is recorded in Hansard, and at future times people will look at that record and interpret the bill against that. I am largely stimulated by the remarks of the New Zealand First member Doug Woolerton, who seemed to have some comments to make about the ills of the meat industry in relation to the dairy industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI ask members to let me just place it on the record that I, along with the rest of the National Party, am essentially very proud of the achievements of the dairy industry. We think it is great that the dairy industry is the leading industry in New Zealand. We are pleased with the way that it has gone forward, particularly after the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act of 2001 was passed, when Fonterra came forward. If the measure is the viability of the dairy industry and the price increases we are seeing in dairy products right now, we can see that rather than the restructuring being an impediment to development, the industry has done exceedingly well. I note, coming from my part of New Zealand, Southland, the great desire of people from the North Island to invest in dairying in the south. If that is an indication of the state of the dairy industry, it is certainly doing very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EMr Woolerton alluded to the comparative situation between milk and meat, and said that if we transferred a xenophobic cooperative structure into the meat industry we would immediately solve all the problems, or that had we gone there initially we would not have the problems in the meat industry that we have today. There are some significant issues which I think change the whole landscape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EFor example, those who represent dairy farmers in terms of their processing and marketing are under a greater degree of scrutiny than anybody else, because the farmers are themselves under scrutiny. Every single day, sometimes twice a day, when dairy farmers milk they have an opportunity to measure their own performance. They might note that they have more milk and the milk vat is up one day, and ask what they did or did not do. So dairy farmers have a very, very rigorous way of measuring themselves, and they tend to apply that to those who represent them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that milk is a homogenous product. Milk is pretty much the same all over New Zealand. There are variations in butterfat levels and slight variations in milkfat percentages, but, essentially, the product is the same. That is not so in the meat industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThirdly, milk stores relatively easily after it has been processed in comparison with meat products. Particularly as the future of the meat industry is moving into chilled products, meat is becoming even more fragile and requires a greater movement of product through, so it cannot be stored for any length of time till the market is just absolutely right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EFourthly, there is just an acceptance of milk generally as a product. If people in the world who have never consumed Western products before are given a variety of foods to consume, of the three products that they will consume again and again, two of them are milk products: ice cream, and chocolate. There just is a universal acceptance of milk as a product in the world, and there is a great desire of Third World countries to consume more calcium in order to be healthier and grow better, and that association is with milk products. So there is a universal acceptance of milk. Which product do dairy farmers have as a competitor? Well, they have soy milk. That is virtually the only competitor that is out there to milk, so they have captured an opportunity that is just there because there is such a great demand for the product. But in the case of meat, it competes with a whole range of animal and fish proteins that are out there, so it is in a much more competitive environment. So just to say we should apply this to that, and that will solve all the problems, is an issue. I think we needed to simply place that on the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAs has been said, the milk industry\u2014the dairy industry\u2014is the foremost part of the New Zealand economy. It is important that we pass this legislation today so that the industry can take the next steps, and so the people who are now involved in company structures outside of Fonterra have an opportunity to provide some stimulus to the industry, not on a competitive basis\u2014well, not specifically for that reason\u2014but with product development, and with opportunities in packaging, marketing, and branding. They are in the marketplace enhancing and increasing the appreciation of the products that are produced out of New Zealand. Yes, those people are a very small section of the industry, but we also need them as a measure against Fonterra. How does one measure a monopoly if there are no other players in the market to say how well they are doing? When they do that, we actually have some measures. I see all those things as healthy, and I see it as a sign of a company that is viable, healthy, growing, maturing, and serving a very, very useful part of New Zealand\u2019s economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ENational supports the third reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00226990ced0056e43afacbe30d04268184d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226990ced0056e43afacbe30d04268184d\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First also supports the third reading of the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2), but it does so with provisos\u2014our vote will not come with a proviso; one either votes for a bill or one does not\u2014and with warnings. This bill is at the end of a very long chain, which started with the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act. To guard ourselves against the ramifications of that Act, we had the formation of Fonterra, which came after that Act. The farmers believed that they needed a bigger company in order to protect themselves from competitors. I was a very strong advocate for Fonterra. I was opposed to the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act, but once that had passed I was a very strong advocate for Fonterra. The National Party was not, and many other people were not as keen on Fonterra as I was. My faith, and New Zealand First\u2019s faith, in Fonterra has been realised. But members should make no mistake about it: we are now in a situation where Fonterra will be very different from what it has been, and in our view it will be weakened because of proposals on the floor that are currently outside the parameters of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ELet me deal with a few of the issues that have been raised after my previous speech. One of those issues concerns the word \u201Cxenophobia\u201D. Somebody was giving me a lecture about the dairy industry not being able to eat all its cheese and having to export. Well, that is precisely what the proponents of the cooperative structure in the early days of the dairy industry understood immediately\u2014that this was all about exporting. It was all about excellence, and it was all about marketing. The farmers of the day hired people to do all those things, and they did them successfully. I might say that they were not afraid to pay them. Right from the earliest days the salaries in the dairy industry, outside of the farming operation itself, have been very, very good, and the expertise has been at the leading edge of innovation in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe people who set the industry up knew that we had to export. We had to get into new products, and we had to innovate. They did all those things through retained earnings and through borrowings, to the degree that Fonterra now has a credit rating that has slipped since the announcement that it may list on the stock exchange, but that is still second only to that of the Government. Fonterra does not have a credit rating of some third-tier meat company, or whatever, but one that is second only to that of the Government. Those people went after innovation at a rate seen nowhere else in our economy, and it has been really, really successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo rather than looking backwards\u2014and I note the talk of Rip Van Winkle and xenophobia\u2014this is an outward looking industry that has always been at the forefront of innovation. This is an industry that is modern. This is an industry that has not gone to other places and begged. This industry has looked after itself. It has been a leading-edge industry, and I have been a proponent of it since my earliest days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d4bdc942f24a578389eb7b01eae028\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: You are flip-flopping!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699c5b72fdb6431a9171c8ea372ba80e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, we are not flip-flopping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI might say that the retained earnings of myself, my three brothers, my father, and many of our contemporaries are still in that company today, because in the days that we operated\u2014not the days of my brothers, though one of them is still going\u2014it was a dollar in and a dollar out for the share. In those days we did not allow other people to come in and get a chunk of the dairy industry. There was one motivation: to grow the company and to grow the industry. Every farmer knew that the result of that growth was a better milk price. Farmers knew what was happening in their company. They knew how successful the executives and the managers were by what was in that milk price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI tell members that farmers understand this industry like no other. They understand what the executives are doing and they understand the profits that come from the different profit centres within this industry. They are not just suppliers of milk, but they will be if they let other people into this industry\u2014they will become suppliers of milk. But at the moment they own a leading-edge company that from this little place, New Zealand, controls one-third of dairy produce available for market in the world. That is no mean feat. That has been mocked today by members of the National Party as being xenophobic and backward looking, which it is not. It is leading edge technology, and I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe difference comes when New Zealand First says that this industry should be protected, as it always has been, as opposed to what the National Party says, which is led by ticket clippers and market people who just want a chunk of this industry. They do not want to do the graft, they do not want to put in the work, they do not want to take the risk, and they do not want to put up the dough for investment; they want a chunk of this company. I tell members that if I were them and not involved in the dairy industry, and if I were just a money man from wherever, I would want a chunk of it too. But New Zealand First says: \u201CDon\u2019t let them have it.\u201D We implore the farmers to keep control of it themselves as they always have. If they nurture this company and carry on as they have in the past, they will reap the benefits through their milk price. They will not reap the benefits of this company through a share price, because that is a one-off, and they will not reap the benefits of this company from a return on dividend. Other people will reap the rewards of the company through those avenues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EFarmers\u2019 only avenue to a guaranteed result is through their milk price. The forefathers of this industry knew that. It is what they set up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde97c1e960246cfb53fc7cbc2b1c02c\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: What about the foremothers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fdc63001f9e4ba2bb170ac741a48e60\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: And the foremothers. Sue Kedgley is absolutely right to pull me up, and I apologise to her for not mentioning them. In the farming industry it is the women who drive the finances, and they always have. It is the women who have largely had control of the purse strings. I could relate to members many an argument over those matters, but that is indoors stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis industry has been at the forefront, and we are in danger of seeing it slip back. New Zealand First members will not stand by and keep their mouths shut and watch that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00229cecefeaadb14999ab59587f9db22028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cecefeaadb14999ab59587f9db22028\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will begin by indicating that the Green Party is supporting this bill through its third reading, as I think all other parties in the House are. I simply say that this is a sensible bill. As has been said, it continues the process of dairy industry restructuring that has been going on for some time. It opens access and increases flexibility, and we support it for all those reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI think Mr Hide was right in saying that innovation tends to come from smaller operators who come up with those innovations\u2014before, of course, they are munched by the big operators who have the economic might in the marketplace. That is why the Green Party says that we are pro-business but we are anti-corporatism. In particular, we are against corporate welfarism, which is something we continue to see with the environmental subsidy going to a number of big businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI also wish to make just a brief comment on the issue of the context of the broader Fonterra restructuring, which Mr Woolerton has spoken about very eloquently. The Green Party has also expressed concerns around the proposals. We see this as an inexorable process towards the overseas control of Fonterra and the end of the interests of New Zealand dairy farmers being at the heart of the company. We are aware that there are a number of safety mechanisms within the proposals, but we see them as delaying rather than stopping that process, so we do have concerns about those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EA lot has been said about the bill itself and the access to those markets, and I think there has been a good discussion. I thought it would be useful to take a slightly broader view, because there is always great interest in the dairy industry across the nation and in Parliament. As I think Eric Roy in particular said, what affects the dairy industry affects the New Zealand economy as a whole. So there is always broad interest in these things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI was interested in the dispute between Mr David Carter and Mr Woolerton in relation to the role of John Luxton and Wyatt Creech, whom Mr Woolerton alleged were setting up a cheese factory while preparing this legislation. Mr Carter made comments in reply but I was not here when they were here so I do not know about the ins and outs of that matter. But I do note something quite interesting in Speakers\u2019 Rulings. Speaker\u2019s ruling 71/2 talks about declaring financial interests. It states: \u201CA farmer member does not have a financial interest in a bill to provide for the payment for and marketing of dairy produce.\u201D I thought that was quite interesting when I came across it, because it kind of indicates another standard for farmers in the Speakers\u2019 Rulings of the House itself. It is interesting because it seems to be the same across a number of issues in relation to farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere have been big payouts to farmers recently and there are flows to the economy from that. Of course, the payouts to farmers flow to the economy for good and for bad. In the past there have been a number of calls for land use diversification, because when those payouts go down the whole economy is vulnerable. By increasing land use diversification we increase the resilience of the New Zealand economy. That has happened at times when there have been lulls in those prices. A booming wine industry is one example of a focus on diversification and on other ways of producing value from our land. For example, there has been the increase in forestry, although that has been moving backwards in recent times. There is a concern that the big payouts are reversing that trend and moving towards a conversion of large amounts of land into dairying, and there is a kind of monoculture spreading across the New Zealand landscape. I think someone described it as a geological shift in land use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting that much conversion is not on the basis of the payout per se, but on the capital gain to be made from the conversion. This is particularly so as access to water becomes more of an issue. Of course, there is increasing tension in this country and around the world in terms of access to clean water, and that will be an increasing issue for the rest of this century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere has been massive expansion and intensification of dairy farming, sometimes in areas that are entirely inappropriate for dairy farming, and this is something that the Green Party is seriously worried about. I note the comments made by Environment Waikato\u2019s Dr Peter Singleton, who said that the issues of dairying and water quality are urgent and critical, and that the only hope is through regulation. That comment was made in the context of Federated Farmers running a massive campaign to gut the Resource Management Act\u2014side by side with the National Party, I might add\u2014and to remove all environmental restrictions on farming activity. This is of enormous concern. In fact, Charlie Pederson said that Federated Farmers could not accept any constraint on the continued growth of dairy farming. I have to wonder whether he is including the laws of physics in that, because the reality is that we are starting to hit the environmental constraints, and no business can continue to expand indefinitely exponentially when confronted with environmental limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELet us be clear that the Green Party does want what is best for New Zealand farmers. We recognise the enormous economic importance of farming, and we recognise the communities that are built around farming, as well. We have opposed vigorously the closing of rural services\u2014for example, schools\u2014because we see the importance of those things. But we also continue to assert environmental accountability from farmers as we would from any other business. We recognise that the environment was not a big issue in the past. Many farming practices were developed at a time when environmental accountability was not really a matter of debate. No one was talking about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe also recognise that there is a natural stewardship in farmers. Farmers live on the land; they are obviously concerned with the sustainability of their farming operations, particularly family farmers, people who may have got their farms from their ancestors and who want to pass them on to their descendants. In that context we also note the increasing extent of corporate farming, where those social and family constraints are not as apparent. Of course, that is not always true, and being a family farmer does not necessarily mean one is a sustainable farmer, but I think there is an intrinsic interest among family farmers to look at questions of sustainability. That influence is now perhaps becoming less important in the farming sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge that there has been a huge amount of progress in the farming sector. We have seen the growth in, for example, nutrient budgeting, which is an important mechanism for increasing sustainability and reducing environmental impact at the same time as increasing profitability in farming. We are seeing increasing riparian protection, and effluent management has become a lot better, but we have to acknowledge that many farmers are still not participating. We are saying that farmers\u2019 representative organisations like Federated Farmers should be spending their energy supporting the change leaders in these areas, rather than continually defending the laggards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe reality is that even with best-practice farming, simply as a result of the massive intensification and expansion of dairy farming, we will see a decline in water quality in this country. The point is that this is a challenge for all New Zealanders, not just farmers. We need to move beyond the rural-urban divide, and we need to move beyond seeing this as a farmer versus a greenie thing, and actually start to work together. I know that some farmers feel like they are getting the bash from environmentalists all the time, but we need to work together on these huge challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f7290892ac14e82a8bd76283e8342be\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: In confronting the environmental challenges before farmers, we have to move beyond the rural-urban split and start to work together. That means giving credit where it is due\u2014and it is due in places; a lot of progress has been made\u2014but also it is about farmers acknowledging that a lot needs to be done. We need to move beyond denial. We need to move beyond minimisation and ask how we are going to work on this stuff together. In the context of mass conversions, where a lot of money is being invested in dairy conversion, we have to acknowledge that the context is changing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EClimate change will change farming, both because of the climatic impact and because of the price of carbon. Environmental regulation will increasingly change the context. Issues around water access will increasingly change the context of farming, and there is increasing talk now of farmers and commercial users of water paying a price for the use of that water. That is something that will affect farmers. So industry leaders have to understand how the world is changing, rather than trying to hold back the tide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00229eda616eb4834b1f86140ec1f7f7f56e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eda616eb4834b1f86140ec1f7f7f56e\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to be able to speak to legislation on which\u2014an unusual occurrence\u2014we generally all agree. That is pretty good, actually. When Samuel Marsden arrived in the Bay of Islands in 1814 with two cattle and a bull, he probably had no idea that less than two centuries later the dairy sector would constitute New Zealand\u2019s biggest industry, injecting some $8 billion into the economy and constituting some 20 percent of all our exports. As the good reverend set about training M\u0101ori in British farming and gardening techniques, believing that those would pave the way to the adoption of Christianity, he would have been amazed at the dividends that such skills would pay off in 2007, for the M\u0101ori dairy sector now owns over 100,000,000 dairy shares, and M\u0101ori also represent over 15 percent of all sheep and beef interests in Aotearoa. That is the context in which the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) is being read. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe bill allows the Fonterra Cooperative Group to have the right to keep exporting to designated markets, and also allows for other dairy processors to become eligible to hold export licences. The bill consolidates the position of New Zealand in the global marketplace once more, after the expiry date of the dairy quota markets established under the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act 2001. This opportunity to again secure a welcome mat in external markets is a move that the submitters and the Primary Production Committee endorsed, and it is a move that we in the M\u0101ori Party also fully embrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe see that the allocation of export rights to dairy quota markets to a wider group than Fonterra is consistent with kotahitanga, the principle of unity and purpose of direction. Allowing for greater participation and certainty in the dairy industry is a more inclusive approach, which should bring with it a wider support base amongst the industry. Public feedback supports that claim. The submission from the T\u0101tua Cooperative Dairy Co. Ltd, which is based in T\u0101tuanui, outside Morrinsville, supported the bill as finally enacting the goals of the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act: to maximise economic benefits for our country arising from tariff quotas as maintained by foreign Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn that regard we know that M\u0101ori dairy farmers are ready and willing to take on the world. They want to be poised to benefit from the widened eligibility for export rights that will be put in place by this legislation. Just how ready they are is able to be gauged from a project that is currently collecting physical, financial, and environmental data from 45 properties in the Tai Tokerau, Te Arawa, Taranaki, and Ikaroa R\u0101whiti regions. I am pleased to share with the House that the M\u0101ori dairy farmers of New Zealand have a project supported by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry that benchmarks M\u0101ori dairy farm physical, financial, and environmental performance. The data will be collected for three seasons, to balance the effects of climate, from across the four North Island regions. The farms will be benchmarked for their physical and financial performance, as well as receiving overseer assessments for environmental sustainability. The farms reflect varying ownership structures, from sharemilker to owner-operated to M\u0101ori incorporation - owned and governed farms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are hopeful that through that project, M\u0101ori farming authorities\u2014incorporations and trusts\u2014will be able to realise the benefit of meaningful management and monitoring information in order to support their future progress and development. The M\u0101ori Party welcomes the advancing of projects such as that one, as they will lead to a strong platform from which to enter designated dairy markets that operate country-specific tariff quotas for New Zealand products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe bill will also provide future certainty to the industry, and given that the Livestock Improvement Corporation advises us the New Zealand dairy industry enjoyed, in 2006-07, its most productive season on record, such certainty is clearly a bonus. Just to put some context around all of this, I tell members that we are talking about 11,630 dairy herds and a population of 3,917,000 cows, which is an increase of 84,000 just in the least year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EBut we do note that the changes will not be without controversy, particularly associated with Fonterra. It appears that Fonterra strongly opposes removing export restrictions for Japan in the cheese market, and for those parts of the United States designated markets without provision for designated imports. It believes that removing the restriction risks a significant loss of value to the New Zealand dairy industry and economy over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, other players, such as the T\u0101tua Cooperative Dairy Co., have a completely opposite view to that of Fonterra, suggesting that the key thrust behind the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act of maximising the economic benefits for New Zealand arising from tariff quotas will be better achieved by the removal of export restrictions, thereby allowing other companies to expand and increase their performance. In such a view, the removal of export restrictions for cheese exports to Japan is therefore desirable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe know that Fonterra held a round of five meetings with all of its M\u0101ori shareholders in the last week of November, so we are hopeful that if M\u0101ori had a view about the maintenance of tariff quotas, it would have been raised in those hui. We are all awaiting, too, the results of those hui, as we are keen to hear from wh\u0101nau their thoughts on the selling-off of Fonterra shares to the overseas market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has always believed that farmers must keep control of the dairy industry, and as such the proposal to sell off interests to external markets leaves us with considerable room for concern. It is the farmers, who own the shares now and who have put their hard work into the production of milk and the tilling of the land, who require our support. We would be concerned if overseas investors took control over an industry that is so crucial to the future prosperity of this country. So although we support the general intentions of this bill to open up the market, which will allow for greater participation and certainty in the dairy industry, we are, if you like, alert to the possibility of the inevitable issues around control that come when overseas investors raise interest in our land. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022b450149f275347fc8702a48bdb090455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b450149f275347fc8702a48bdb090455\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to thank that member, Tariana Turia, for her contribution on the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2). I enjoyed listening to the very sound debating points she put in front of the House today. This is a very important bill for the cornerstone of New Zealand agriculture. I have also enjoyed hearing the debates from the Green Party and, in particular, New Zealand First, because I want to take up the challenge from New Zealand First around what Mr Woolerton has been talking about in terms of Fonterra looking to the future around its capital structure regime. Mr Woolerton has spoken two or three times today, and it seems that during his addresses, he has been all over the park. On the one hand he has been saying that we do not want Fonterra to look offshore to overseas investors or even to internal New Zealand investors, and on the other hand he is saying we support competition. I believe that this bill will allow greater competition in the New Zealand dairy industry. Where Fonterra in the past has probably had a monopoly on some of these overseas markets, this legislation will let the smaller players\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7095010be34b228b86c659736981ca\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: They did have a monopoly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4800618e034b3b89ed98d8341bab96\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: The chair of the Primary Production Committee, David Carter, points out that it did have a monopoly. The smaller players\u2014there are about seven of those smaller producers in New Zealand, making up about 5 percent of milk that is exported\u2014now have the ability to get into those markets. But I say to Mr Woolerton and New Zealand First, who are wading into this debate, it is really up to New Zealand farmers. Tariana Turia has acknowledged that today. New Zealand dairy farmers will make that decision without New Zealand First wading into the debate. New Zealand farmers are smart enough, and Fonterra, I believe, is smart enough, to recognise that we need to get Fonterra\u2019s suppliers to agree to 75 percent of this to get it through. Seventy-five percent of farmers need to look outside their own backyards to make a decision in the direction of where Fonterra wants to go\u2014not be driven to listen to what New Zealand First is saying, because it seems that New Zealand First is keen to look inwards instead of outwards. This is a big decision that New Zealand farmers need to make, and they will make it in their own time when they get all of the facts. I am not sure New Zealand First is full of the facts when it joins this debate today, because listening to Mr Woolerton I am confused as to where his party actually sits on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other important thing to realise is that this industry is producing 15 billion litres of milk a year. When one thinks about it, one realises that we cannot export that fluid, fresh milk around New Zealand, so it has to be processed. The money for all New Zealand dairy farmers is in the fluid, fresh, the liquid milk market around the world. That means investing in worldwide markets. But New Zealanders cannot do that without opening it up. So the challenge to New Zealand First is whether it wants to see the status quo with Fonterra or whether it wants to see Fonterra move into the worldwide markets. I say to Mr Woolerton that New Zealand farmers, not the influence of New Zealand First, will make that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe important issue with this bill\u2014and we are in urgency\u2014is for us to realise that it will allow greater competition in the New Zealand dairy industry. New Zealand dairy farmers have other external factors tthey are concerned about. I believe those external factors will be further debated in the House this afternoon. Farmers are concerned about the emissions trading scheme, and it will be interesting to hear the debate on that this afternoon. Agriculture is set to join that scheme in 2013, and I know that some of my colleagues will make valuable contributions this afternoon around that issue. We should not get drunk in charge and follow willy-nilly and be world pace-setters in this climate change debate, because we need to weigh up the economic opportunities and our environmental obligations. That is what the members of the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party have been talking about this afternoon\u2014balancing those issues. If we look at where New Zealand First members would like to see this whole debate go, we see they believe we should just stay in and look inwards instead of outwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThose are some of the challenges we need to think about addressing in the future\u2014not having knee-jerk environmental debates such as Labour wants to have. We need to make sure we are investing in the future of research and development to ensure we are changing the microbes in the rumen of the cow\u2019s gut and ensuring we are making changes at the grassroots level. The most important thing with an emissions trading scheme is to change behaviour\u2014not to have it overall as a tax, which will just be struck down on each individual farmer. We need to change behaviour, and I am acknowledging that, but we need to ensure that the emissions trading scheme will direct the change of behaviour and not be just another tax. We have seen the Government come into the House to try to pass the \u201Cfart tax\u201D. We have seen the Government come in to try to impose a carbon tax. We need to be mindful of weighing up the environment and the economic drivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2) is very important. We are in urgency on a Wednesday afternoon, and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has had this lurking around on the Order Paper for the last month. Now we find ourselves in urgency because it is very important that this bill is passed and gets the Royal assent before the end of the year. So National is supporting the bill. It is fortunate that we have had the good work of the Primary Production Committee, which has focused on the grassroots to ensure that some of the good changes in this bill will help as we move forward, accepting the challenges for the New Zealand dairy industry that lie ahead of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002245efea95a3cd44b79fa384e666907a10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245efea95a3cd44b79fa384e666907a10\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Dairy Industry Restructuring Amendment Bill (No 2). The ACT Party is in favour of competition and choice, and it is in favour of opening up opportunities to our dairy farmers. We support this bill in its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb7860ce4c2546c2a5a370f329c120f0\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb7860ce4c2546c2a5a370f329c120f0\u0022\u003ETaxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb7860ce4c2546c2a5a370f329c120f0\u0022\u003ETaxation (KiwiSaver) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb65a3a490704b64af8e4879bc4dcaf8\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00223a138eb1ea7f4e7cb234d1e812d25a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a138eb1ea7f4e7cb234d1e812d25a47\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill, the Taxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill, and the Taxation (KiwiSaver) Bill be now read a third time. The Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill is the annual bill that sets out the income tax rates to apply, in this case, for the 2007-08 tax year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Taxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill introduces a wide range of important measures. It introduces the new 15 percent research and development tax credit\u2014a measure that is intended to help raise the amount of private sector research and development in New Zealand. The bill also introduces amendments resulting from the recent reduction in the company tax rate to 30 percent. I should point out that both sets of changes are a direct result of the recent business tax review that was carried out as part of the confidence and supply agreement between United Future and Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also relaxes a whole range of tax penalties, such as that for taking an unacceptable tax position, so that those penalties now reflect the seriousness of the offence and distinguish between people who try to do the right thing and fail, and those who have no intention of doing the right thing. The idea behind these changes is to further promote voluntary compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also increases tax incentives for making donations to charitable organisations\u2014again, a particular consequence of the confidence and supply agreement between United Future and Labour, and arising out of the discussion document on charitable tax changes that we issued last October. The changes include removing the current rebate thresholds on donations made by individuals, and removing the deduction limit on charitable donations made by companies and M\u0101ori authorities. So from 1 April next year all charitable donations will be tax deductible. That is a significant and dramatic step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOn the savings front, the bill allows policyholders in unit-linked life insurance products to access some of the benefits of the new portfolio investment entity rules. It also allows certain contributions to retirement schemes to be subject to withholding tax rather than income tax, which means that contributions to those schemes will not be taken into account for social assistance purposes. I might observe in passing that earlier I made a call for an objective of tax policy to be an alignment of personal, company, and trust tax rates at 30c in the dollar. The combination of the business tax changes and the changes related to the tax treatment of certain savings vehicles contained in this bill gets us just over halfway along that path.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also allows for the introduction of data matching between the Inland Revenue Department and the New Zealand Customs Service. That change will enable the Inland Revenue Department to identify when people with outstanding child support debt enter and leave New Zealand, so that it can take steps to recover that debt before they leave the country. I acknowledge that that provision of the legislation received pretty much universal support from the House. There is no tolerance for those who shirk their child support responsibilities. The change that is contained here will make enforcement of the existing regime that much more effective, and it comes on top of changes that we made last year to introduce further incentives for people to meet their obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 167, which was released yesterday, added two further important policy measures to the legislation. The first was the introduction of a new tax rebate for redundancy payments, to make the taxation of redundancy payments fairer for people who find themselves in a higher tax bracket as a result of receiving a lump-sum payment. The second change was to reintroduce legislation intended to shut down tax schemes relating to leases on overseas assets that result in a loss to the New Zealand revenue. The amendments had been introduced at an earlier stage, but were later withdrawn to allow the Government more time to consider transitional concerns that had been raised in submissions made to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. As a result, the proposals have been modified to allow a less disruptive transition to the new rules for parties that were involved in leases that existed before 20 June this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese are the main policy changes to which the bill gives effect. It also contains a number of remedial changes designed to ensure that the tax law is as effective as possible and always works as intended. Supplementary Order Paper 168, which was also released yesterday, takes amendments made by each of these bills to the Income Tax Act 2004 and inserts them into the Income Tax Act 2007, which was enacted while this legislation has been before Parliament. This lengthy process involved restructuring the legislation proposed in these bills, and using the new terminology developed as part of the overall process of rewriting the Income Tax Act, and it contributed to the substantial size of that particular Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe third bill is the Taxation (KiwiSaver) Bill, which gives effect to Budget announcements relating to employer contributions to KiwiSaver and to complying superannuation schemes. The main changes, of course, are the introduction of compulsory contributions on the part of employers to match their employees\u2019 contributions, and the introduction of an employer tax credit to help offset the costs to employers. These changes are part of the package of KiwiSaver changes that were introduced in the Budget this year with the primary objective of increasing the incentives for people to save for their retirement. The fact that over 316,000 people have joined KiwiSaver in the first 5 months of its operation shows not only that this savings scheme is meeting a need but also that people do want to save for their retirement. It is particularly encouraging\u2014and this was a point noted during the Committee stage debate\u2014that many of these savers are younger New Zealanders who are being introduced to a savings habit that will, hopefully, stay with them for their life. That has to be good for the country in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt was also observed that the Government does run huge financial risks here. The biggest risk is the popularity of the scheme. The fact that after 5 months we have exceeded the year 1 target for uptake shows that most New Zealanders were ready for a scheme of this type, applauded its introduction, and are pleased to be part of it. This Government and successive Governments will have to cope with the consequences of the popularity and the vitality of KiwiSaver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese three bills, which emerged from legislation that, until divided by the Committee, was one piece of legislation, have required a huge effort on the part of a number of people. I acknowledge, in no particular order, the contribution of members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who worked through this legislation over some months; the drafters; the policy officials in the Inland Revenue Department, Treasury, and my own office; and the people who made submissions. I acknowledge the members of this House who participated in the debates for their lengthy and complex consideration of this matter. Very detailed issues are contained in these bills, and I think that, as they arrive for their third readings, the legislation is in good shape. This marks another significant achievement in the process of tax reform in New Zealand. I want to record my thanks to all of those people for the contribution they made, at whatever stage, to make this legislation possible. Therefore, I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002206e00f432f444a2f9c10368930f7bee3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206e00f432f444a2f9c10368930f7bee3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation that we read for a third time today reveals the full sham of this Labour Government\u2019s new-found interest in personal income tax cuts. The Government members tell us now that Treasury has finally told them that the Government can afford personal income tax cuts. Well, this was the first test. This Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill was the test. Labour could have reduced personal income tax rates. It was the first test. And what does Labour do? It fails, because it does not reduce the rates at all. We know why. The reason is that there is no election this year. There is no election this year, and this Labour Party is so dumb it thinks the people of New Zealand can be fooled into believing that Labour supports tax cuts when the only time it talks about them and promises them is in election years, and then it does not do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo, what have Government members done with this bill? What they have done is so extraordinary it would find a perfectly good place in a Monty Python show. They have suddenly decided: \u201CRedundancy payments! We\u2019ll reduce the tax on all redundancy payments by 6c!\u201D. Has anyone had a chance to make any submissions on that policy? No. Has the policy been through the generic tax policy process, which is an important part of trying to make sure our tax legislation in this country makes sense? [Interruption] Paul Swain knows about it. The young Darren Hughes would not know anything about it, but Mr Swain knows about the generic tax policy process. It is an important process. Did this 6c rebate in redundancy payments go through that process? No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me share just a couple of things that show what is so stupid about this provision. The Minister Peter Dunne has just said that the reason for it is that a redundancy payment can put a taxpayer into a higher tax bracket, and therefore that taxpayer pays more tax than he or she should on that redundancy payment. I have no problem with that argument. But the Minister should think about it a bit. Let me give him an example. Let us say for argument\u2019s sake that a salary earner on $40,000 loses his or her job. This person has been in this job for a few years, so he or she gets a $40,000 redundancy payment. Under this legislation, this person will get a 6c rebate on that $40,000 redundancy payment. But I want the Minister to reflect on this. If this person genuinely was getting a reduction for the tax that the higher tax bracket would impose on him or her, he or she would not get a 6c rebate on all of that $40,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd8321a3a99744c3b197f4f02c14f6a1\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8a283a768d4119a5dc9444b9e50054\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, that person would not. That person would not, if, in fact, he or she was being compensated for being taken into the higher tax bracket. You see, at $40,000 of salary, this person\u2019s marginal rate is 33c. It does not change to 39c until he or she hits $60,000. So the first $20,000 of the redundancy package would be taxed at only 33c, and only the last $20,000 would face the 6c higher marginal rate. But by giving the full 6c rebate on the entire $40,000, on the bit from $40,000 to $60,000, this person is paying a 27c tax rate on that bit of income. Where is the logic in all of that? I see the Minister frowning. I can tell him that I am right. My figures are absolutely right. I am correct. Where is the logic in saying that the person getting this payment should pay only 27c on the bit between $40,000 and $60,000? Where is the logic in that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat makes it more stupid is that the person we are talking about is, sadly, now put out of work and gets a redundancy payment\u2014and of course we should be concerned about excessive tax on that payment\u2014but what about the same person on the same salary who is injured at work, sadly so injured that the person will not be able to work again for the rest of his or her life? At least someone who gets redundancy has the chance to get another job. Someone who will not be able to work again for the rest of his or her life will get a lump-sum payment from the Accident Compensation Corporation, say for argument\u2019s sake for the same amount of $40,000. But that poor person who perhaps can never work again gets the full tax\u2014the full 39c\u2014on their lump-sum compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhy does Labour hate injured workers? Why does Labour hate so much these poor people who get put out of work and cannot work again because of a tragic injury that may not even be their fault but have to pay the full tax rate, and someone who is made redundant, whose prospects are nowhere near as serious because he or she can at least work again and get another job, gets this really special tax treatment whereby over a certain range of income the tax rate is below the tax rate that ordinary people earning that kind of money would pay? Had this policy been through the generic tax policy process, all these silly anomalies would have been sorted out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat we see with this legislation we are debating in the third reading today is really a reversion back to the bad old days. When I came into this Parliament in 1984 we had ridiculous tax law. I think something like 70 pages of tax deductibilities were available to taxpayers in New Zealand. I give the Labour Government of those days some credit\u2014the Labour Government post-1984\u2014and Michael Cullen was part of that Government. It is a shame Michael Cullen has forgotten some of the good things he did back in those days. It is a shame he resiles from some of the good things Labour did in those days. Labour simplified the tax system. It accepted that the policy of a lower, broader base actually brings in more tax revenue. But what we see with this legislation now is that, today, this modern, Helen Clark - Cullen Labour Government is turning its back on that sound tax policy. What we get is a whole lot of adhockery, such as the 6c rebate on redundancy payments and the tax credits for working families or for all kinds of New Zealand families. This bill also changes the names of the various family tax credits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat is so bizarre about this bill is that a family that Dr Cullen considers is so rich it should pay the top personal tax rate is on $60,000. Dr Cullen considers that someone on $60,000 is so well off he or she should pay the top personal tax rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297906d8fb3334073b8a0253034f6efc9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The top.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a654d4abfd6478894a5d8595dc4546d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Michael is right\u2014the top. But if they have five children then the Government considers that they are so poor they should pay no income tax. So on the one hand the Government is saying those people are so wealthy they should pay the top rate, yet on the other hand if they have five dependent children they are so poor they should pay no income tax at all. Those are the facts. If a family has an income of $60,000 and five dependent children, their net tax position is zero. So we can see this stupid adhockery. Why do we maintain these ridiculous high tax rates on ordinary working New Zealanders, then say: \u201CHang on! After we have collected all this tax, we have to give it all back to them.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is not the only adhockery in this legislation. It now brings in the tax credits for research and development. What we will see with those\u2014and we are already seeing it\u2014is accountants up and down this country, working on how much of most businesses\u2019 current expenditure can be brought in to qualify for the research and development tax credits. We know that Shane Jones, the Labour member and chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, asked officials whether there was any evidence at all from Australia that these tax credits work. The officials had to say that there is not. We have all these bits of adhockery that this legislation brings into our law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe final one I want to mention is this: in the final stages of major tax law we had five Supplementary Order Papers\u2014three major ones and two minor ones\u2014just dumped on this Committee yesterday. That is not very good tax legislation. One of them brought in a new provision for cross-border operational leases whereby one-sixth of the depreciation write-off available for these leases will now no longer be available. What is objectionable about that is that the Government tried to sneak in a Supplementary Order Paper on that a while back. The select committee examined it, found that it would be unacceptably repressive on certain business deals done in New Zealand through its retrospectivity, and threw it out. But the Government then brought in this Supplementary Order Paper and dumped it on the Table yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe commercial interests involved now have to work through how they will actually live under this new provision. Time will tell whether serious litigation follows this measure. Again, it is ad hoc. Again, it has no rational basis behind it. That is the problem with this legislation. It ignores a rational reduction in tax rates for all New Zealanders and brings in a whole rash of ad hoc provisions. That is why National is opposed to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022211bf8e0d896443bbd4fdbf2106e9e83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022211bf8e0d896443bbd4fdbf2106e9e83\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We have just heard from a member of the tax-cutting National Party. It is the party that has run for years that the only thing that matters in life\u2014the only maiden\u2019s dream that is worth having\u2014is having a tax cut in one\u2019s Christmas stocking, or somewhere or another. We heard from Lockwood Smith, first of all, that the tax cut for redundancy is too big and has to be opposed. It is not fair; it is too big. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESecondly, we heard that the Government is providing tax credits for families, so that people with five children will get, and are getting, a tax reduction compared with somebody with no children\u2014somebody who shall remain nameless in this House. I gather from recent rulings that we are allowed to refer to childlessness now; but I will not mention the member in that regard. People with five children will pay less than somebody who does not have any children. The member may not know this, because his specialisation in life is dairy herds or something of that sort, but I tell Dr Lockwood Smith that bringing up children is expensive. He should try it some day. It is still not too late. It is still not too late, by the look of those photos we have seen of him. He could still be the father of some children, and he will find that they cost money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIn most countries\u2014in almost every Western country that I know of\u2014the tax system recognises the cost of raising children. That might be a rort to an accountant\u2014though how I do not know\u2014but to the rest of us it is regarded as some form of social justice and social equity. If the member wants to think about why we have a simple 6c in the dollar rebate on redundancy, he should think about the accountants he was just referring to. What he is proposing in terms of the marginal rate approach provides a huge opportunity for a tax rort. It means that after working 1 month somebody on, for example, $150,000 a year could collect that month\u2019s salary, and the remaining 11 months\u2019 salary as a redundancy payment, and be taxed at 15c in the dollar. The member has gone quiet now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThen we come to the issue of the top tax rate, which for some reason obsesses the National Party. Of course, the level it cuts in at depends on what the rate is. When the National Government left office, the top tax rate was 33c and it cut in at 1.1 times the average wage. Actually, I am wrong in that; it cut in at below the average wage in 1999\u2014$35,000, and the threshold was $38,000. Now it cuts in at well above the average wage, and it is slightly higher. Is it huge by international standards? The famous low tax rate country, Ireland, taxes at 40c in the dollar\u2014and has no imputation credit for dividends\u2014and it cuts in at 1.2 times the average wage. The National Party\u2014I hate to tell members this, because they might not have learnt this\u2014in living memory, has never ever cut the top tax rate when in Government. It has never ever, in living memory, cut the corporate tax rate when in Government. It has never ever, in living memory, cut the tax rate on savings when in Government. So where is that tax-cutting National Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat has this Government done? We have cut the tax rate on savings, and this legislation carries that forward somewhat further. We are cutting\u2014and this legislation will carry out the completion of the process\u2014the tax rate on business for the first time since the time of the last Labour Government in the 1980s. National did put up the top tax rate, and it was National that left the 66c in the dollar tax rate in 1981 that the member referred to. I tell Mr Foss that there is no point in apologising now; he was probably not even born then. But the fact is that it was a National Government that put up the top tax rate, and it never lowered it. So let us try to work out which Government actually delivers in these areas, and which Government just talks about it. National puffs up its chest in Opposition and says that it will cut taxes, but it gets into Government and puts them up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat is the other feature of this legislation? We have heard practically nothing about this. This legislation has important considerations in respect of KiwiSaver. Have we heard anything about KiwiSaver from the Opposition in this debate? Those members do not want to talk about it. We have well over 300,000 people enrolled in KiwiSaver, and the number is growing by thousands every week\u2014every week. The National Party does not want to say now what its position is on KiwiSaver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2dbfa89d6c047638208be5f8116eb4f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228caa991f119b45c294d516bd9f57f6c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, at some point it used to be that it was terrible, it was a rort, it was unfair, it was indecent, and it would do nothing. Now National is saying: \u201COh my gosh, there is well over 300,000; it will be well over half a million by the time of the election. What is our position going to be on KiwiSaver?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThen we heard from Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith PhD and bar about research and development tax credits. He is opposed to them, but he did not hear his deputy leader\u2019s speech in an earlier stage of this legislation, where Bill English gave them reasoned support. Why? I have to tell the member that life has moved on since the 1990s. The evidence is now very clear that limited tax credits do work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278010acbac7c4767b7d652e98a4c6ce2\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a37c2e2dc12f4b81a068cfcc27cc8f6e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes! And the reason for that is that the return to society from investment in research and development is not the 20 percent or so that is the return to the business; it is more like 90 to 100 percent. How come New Zealand firms\u2014including Fonterra\u2014have been doing research in Australia since Australia introduced research and development tax credits? And how come Australian businesses are looking to move research and development to New Zealand, now that we are talking about research and development tax credits within New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe point is that we can be so pure that all we do is drink pure water, and wonder why people are enjoying champagne in other countries. Well, it is time for us to get just a little bit more intelligent about, firstly, how we support savings in this country. If anybody thinks we do not have a savings problem, that person should just go and look at the data, at the weakness of our capital markets, and at the price we pay for interest in this country compared with our competitors. We should look at the cost to business that that creates and realise that we have to act on this challenge. Cutting the top tax rate, compared with lifting the performance of our capital markets, is a matter of utter, utter insignificance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhen members opposite finally get around to the point of announcing what their tax policy will be, they will have to explain what will happen to those who are earning modest incomes. Will they receive anything? Will they follow Dr Lockwood Smith\u2019s prescription today, which is to cut assistance to families in order to give money to people like Dr Lockwood Smith? He said that people on $60,000 a year with five kids\u2014five children\u2014should not receive any tax credits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ecbeee40a94a7eb16e9cfe48f3b203\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say that, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022050997c504ce489286b7bbd258ee6431\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, he did. He said that it was wrong; it was wrong that people on $60,000 a year with five children received tax credits in relation to the cost of raising those children. Well, we on this side of the House are very proud that with Working for Families we are helping a broad range of lower and middle income New Zealanders to meet the cost of raising a family. Nothing is more important than that in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe are proud that we are introducing a research and development tax credit that will help to lift our performance. We are proud that we have a KiwiSaver scheme that is already a stunning success, and that will lift the savings rate within New Zealand. We are proud that we are lowering the corporate tax rate, and in next year\u2019s Budget we will announce personal tax cuts that will not go to all of National\u2019s friends, but will go, in significant amount, to people on low and modest incomes, because it is about all Kiwis sharing in the economic success that this Government has created. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EUnlike Mr Hide, who said in the Committee stage that people who earned more than $60,000 were the only people who worked hard in this country, we believe that all New Zealanders contribute to the success of this country\u2014[Interruption] And at that they jeer. Well, if they want to jeer at that, they should go out door-knocking in the average Kiwi suburb and tell people that they do not contribute to New Zealand. We will follow and collect their names, because they will be voting Labour on election day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220daca3f940964db59855a72705aca960\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022837c1befdd7d4994b5c5d4ea3dec211a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First\u2014Donation of Money\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a83aa455621548ca9f868fe7b9e201bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a83aa455621548ca9f868fe7b9e201bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This morning at 9 o\u2019clock in Auckland, on behalf of New Zealand First, I handed a cheque for $158,000 to Kay Hyman from Starship Children\u2019s Health. The money will be used for paediatric research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe have always contested, and continue to contest, the findings of the Auditor-General\u2019s report against both New Zealand First and United Future, because both had their expenditure pre-approved by the Parliamentary Service and the Chief Electoral Office. I have written\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd428abaeff4edca115daa726c8e3f3\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member sought the indulgence of the House to make a personal statement, and the requirements around a personal statement are very well-known. This statement is going well outside those requirements. If we were aware that this would be the subject matter of the personal statement, we certainly would not have given leave, because it would not have met the requirements of the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa5492720df4af4bc607986771dffcc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The claim cannot be made that if one was aware something might have happened somewhere during someone\u2019s personal statement, consent would not have been given. That would require someone to be clairvoyant. Mr English knows that. But the most important thing is that I have only two more sentences to go, one of which concerns the Auditor-General. It is a personal statement because it concerns exactly what we have done. That is all it is\u2014two more sentences. All right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022307d9439641c4a23bbd183fd6b1d7b1a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, of course you will finish. But I just say that the member should not stray outside the facts of the matter he is raising. He is entitled, in my view, to have gone as far as he has, because he and his party have been under considerable attack in this House in respect of the subject matter of his personal explanation. I think he is explaining what they have done and why. But I advise the member not to go too wide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3b55e53d284380a41c11c7d37bdfe8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have written to Kevin Brady, the Auditor-General, advising him of the donation and explaining that at least now some good will have come from this issue. I seek the leave of the House to table a photo of the donation taking place and my letter to the Auditor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f0d1d537df403c92129f8afdc96d85\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: What about the press release\u2014table that, too? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229850ee885e5649ba81dce57b405cb74a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased you waited till the point of order was finished, Mr Tremain. Thank you. Leave has been sought to table those items. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022632832926667498c8d126b362c20b212\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022632832926667498c8d126b362c20b212\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I also seek leave for the National Party to explain now why it has not paid its GST\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f9ff7d95c647a98f3ba98b25f21701\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Thank you, Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00228589c9baa04c4a5cad75941868518da5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228589c9baa04c4a5cad75941868518da5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E In a similar vein to Mr Peters\u2019 seeking of leave for National to make an explanation, I seek leave for Mr Peters to make an attempt at an explanation about why he has not paid back the money yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229abe30a8be1546398612b9668d85a813\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member may not seek leave for any other person or party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022308604a3b6644ae78ff1c4aa33a4e6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022308604a3b6644ae78ff1c4aa33a4e6da\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In response to an allegation that has now been made across the country by Mr Hide, I say that if he knew anything about the law, then he would know full well there is no cubby hole into which to poke any such payments, as the law has now changed. But we have done something worthy in the interests of the ordinary, poor people of this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cde1107dd9f8486eaef22c2b63364c97\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. We are now debating the motion that was moved by Mr Dunne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd26a169d21948dfbb152a9cbabda4f8\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd26a169d21948dfbb152a9cbabda4f8\u0022\u003ETaxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd26a169d21948dfbb152a9cbabda4f8\u0022\u003ETaxation (KiwiSaver) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236763ac5bb504c6eac4eab3e90edbc79\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000453\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4f89ff752a644a1b0b4f219794787c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4f89ff752a644a1b0b4f219794787c6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Mr Peters might want to explain just where he got the $158,000 from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b03ed84f4a9448a9597ff37c6e0a986\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not get it from abroad, as the member\u2019s party did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b076d5d204b40678da518ada3c9ae5b\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Enough points of order have been raised this afternoon. Members will settle down please, particularly Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da54d873f5bb4430a51c4416c4d0078e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: What we do know about New Zealand First\u2019s repayment is that those members did not get it from the taxpayer, which is where Dr Cullen got the money he used to break the cap on electoral expenses in the 2005 election, in a manner that was unprecedented. That is directly relevant to this legislation, which sets our tax rates, because that particular incident helps explain some of Dr Cullen\u2019s ambivalence about tax policy and where it is headed. I will just pick up on some of the statements Dr Cullen made in his speech to the House. He is falling back on the mechanism that Labour uses when it is in electoral trouble\u2014that is, the making of loud and vigorous statements of principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDr Cullen made a couple of statements that I think bear some scrutiny. In relation to the first, one would think that Labour had invented the idea of compensating families for the cost of raising children. Well, it did not. Working for Families is simply an extension of the child tax credits that were brought in by National in 1996 and 1997. Those child tax credits, which were much criticised by Labour at the time, were simply an extension of the rationalisation of family assistance through family support that was carried out by the Labour Government in 1987, under Roger Douglas when he brought in the family support system. So for Dr Cullen to claim that only Labour has ever recognised the cost of raising children, and that it is some kind of radical new statement of equity, is rubbish. It is just rubbish. He updated a model brought in 10 years ago under National, a tax package that cost, I think, about $3 billion, which was the largest personal income and family support tax package the country has ever seen, even including those in the 10 years since then\u2014even since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe point my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith was making was simply that taxing people at 39c in the dollar when they earn under $40,000, and then recycling all of that money back to them as child tax credits, is a system that bears some scrutiny because we may be able to simplify it. We have had quite a lot of discussion about how that could happen, but Dr Cullen is going far too far\u2014in the manner he has become accustomed to\u2014by saying that Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith is opposed to Working for Families and tax credits for families. Of course, the system can be simplified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe other statement Dr Cullen made in respect of equity for taxpayers leaves me absolutely puzzled. You see, as Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith pointed out, tax policy has become a hotchpotch of ad hoc arrangements. One of the reasons is that Dr Cullen is now implementing policies he has opposed for almost all of the time he has been the finance spokesman for Labour, going back, I think, to 1994 or 1995. So he has had to change his mind under political pressure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ba3d0cd2734287bdd52b65d11646b1\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: What an outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220429b097fc044d1a7b801217c06beff\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is not an outrage, but there is clearly no principle in what he is doing. I will just use the examples that have come through the debate. The way the Government will handle the tax on redundancies will effectively reduce the tax rate on redundancy payments, compared with the tax rate people are due to pay on their income. So someone on the tax rate of 39c in the dollar, which cuts in at well under the income levels that anyone would consider wealthy, will be paying 39c in the dollar on their income tax and they will pay 33c on their redundancy payment. People who earn $400,000 can use tax and company structures that mean, effectively, they pay the same tax rate as a person who earns $40,000. They can pay 33c in the dollar. Under Labour, people who earn less than the average wage\u2014who earn $39,000\u2014pay tax at the rate of 33c in the dollar. Again, the tax regime on savings now provides through the portfolio investment entity regime the opportunity for people who pay 39c in the dollar on their personal income to pay 30c in the dollar on the income they earn on savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWhat is actually happening is that Dr Cullen is gradually flattening the tax rates on everything except personal income. Why is he doing that? Well, one can only assume that it is some kind of obsession, as expressed the other day when he referred to the leader of the National Party not just as a \u201Cscumbag\u201D but also as a \u201Crich\u201D\u2014and then a four-letter word that I think is probably unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a1b99464d746dab2326ca601000e29\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Five letters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d9c47dce91c4f74adf18a18c9f48ce5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It was a five-letter word that we cannot repeat. Dr Cullen and Labour have this fixed view that anyone who earns $60,000 is rich and, therefore, that they should be punished. So he has reduced the tax on companies, reduced the tax on savings, and today he has reduced the tax on redundancy payments. He has done everything except reduce the tax that people pay on their personal incomes. What is it with Dr Cullen that, although he claims to be the guardian of equity, the first $2 billion worth of tax cuts he has made have gone to companies? How does he explain that to the Council of Trade Unions conference\u2014to the person on $39,000 who has had no tax breaks for 8 years under Labour, but who knows that $2 billion worth of taxes a year have been reduced for companies. What did Dr Cullen used to say about company tax cuts? He used to say that they were mindlessly stupid. He used to say that the only beneficiaries of company tax cuts were overseas investors who owned businesses in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221713d3f6f4694636a7fa8814620c2a95\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Disproportionately that\u2019s true. Disproportionately that\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be76ad324f2419cadc7dd90b5dbe018\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I ask whether that is right. Why is it that Labour, all fired up about equity and fairness, has given the first $2 billion worth of tax cuts to the overseas owners of New Zealand businesses? That is apparently what Labour has done, according to its own logic. Of course, there is a logic to what Labour has done, which is that the lower company tax rate means that companies will retain their profits and reinvest them. There is some logic to that, but what has happened to the equity argument? How will Labour MPs explain to middle-income New Zealanders on the factory floor why those people have not had a single tax break in 8 years? Labour members cannot explain it. They cannot explain it, and that is why they have lost the argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c60a4262edcb4ec080522855bf4c5d01\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cadd7224d70841ff8ccaf034c854051e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they have lost the argument. That is why Helen Clark suddenly announced her new-found understanding of fiscal surpluses, and said that they are big enough for tax cuts. The reality is that middle New Zealand should have had a dividend from economic growth over the last 8 years. People are looking increasingly to Australia, where workers have had a dividend from economic growth. New Zealand workers can feel doubly aggrieved that the dividend from economic growth has gone to people who can afford to save, to people who run companies, and to Kiwis who live in Australia. So Kiwis have had tax breaks, but they have had to go to Australia to get them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDr Cullen cannot have it both ways. One argument he makes is that National is a bunch of mad tax-cutters who cannot be trusted. Today he made the opposite argument: that people cannot trust National to cut taxes because it never has. He is actually wrong about that. But he cannot have it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELabour members will have to make up their own minds about tax cuts. They need to own their record and their record is that they have given tax breaks to those who are better off, to people who own companies, and to those who can afford to save, but Labour\u2019s own supporters have gone wanting for 8 years for a single dime, for a single cent. Dr Cullen promised them in 2005 the \u201Cchewing gum tax cuts\u201D\u2014as the leader of the ACT party so grandly called them. Then he took those cuts away. So the only thing Labour members promised workers, it took away. That is why, next year, workers will not trust them. Labour members had the chance, with the passage of this bill this year, to give some tax reductions to low and middle income New Zealanders, yet for the eighth year in a row they have refused to do it. But magically in election year the workers out there who have had to pay more and more tax are meant to believe that now Labour members are giving tax cuts out of the goodness of their hearts. What a load of rubbish! Dr Cullen has spent 8 years ruining his credibility on tax; it will not come right next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00224d08d779da364e409713f43a6dd85781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d08d779da364e409713f43a6dd85781\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The performance of the Rt Hon Winston Peters in the House, just before, illustrates why we have got ourselves in such a muddle over tax policy. It was all about politics and grandstanding and nothing about principle or sound policy. Just to recap, I remind members that all of the political parties were discovered by the Auditor-General at the last election to have spent money outside what the rules were considered to be, and every party\u2014some begrudgingly\u2014paid the money back. Mr Peters and New Zealand First did not. They were going to take a legal case, they held off, and they kept the interest, apparently, on their money all that time. Then, rather than pay back the money to the taxpayer, as every other party did, they grandstanded and had their picture taken giving the money to a hospital. That is like a taxpayer who, on being found not to have paid his or her tax, does not actually pay it back for 2 years and does not pay any interest or any penalties, but who then gives the money owed to the taxman to his or her favourite charity, gets his or her picture in the paper doing so, and says: \u201CLook at me, how wonderful I am!\u201D. There is nothing principled or sound about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIf Mr Doug Woolerton wants to keep chirping in as he does, he and his party should announce where the money that New Zealand First has been spending has actually come from\u2014not just the money it paid to the hospital but the money that Mr Peters spent in taking Bob Clarkson to court\u2014money that has never been declared. I say to New Zealand First members that before they start giving some bad motives to the National Party or to the ACT party over what those parties are doing, I think they should be a bit more upfront about where their leader has been getting his money from all these years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAs to this bill, I say that the problem is that there is no principle, there is no sound policy, and there is no forward thinking in anything that this Government is doing in the area of tax. Let me explain. The first thing we should do with a Government is decide what we want that Government to do. Once we decide what we want the Government to do, we can then go and figure out how we raise the money for that. But that is not what this Government has done. It has sat on a pile of cash and asked \u201CHow can we spend it?\u201D. In fact, it has asked \u201CHow can we get more?\u201D. It has put up taxes and charges to get more money to spend rather than think about what New Zealanders want their Government to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe second thing we should do, having decided that, yes, it is appropriate that the Government spends this amount of money, is raise tax as efficiently and as effectively as possible, because a poorly designed tax system puts costs on the economy\u2014that is to say, on all New Zealanders. The costs are not just the cost of filling out the forms, the costs are what is called in the jargon the dead weight costs of tax\u2014the costs, the trades, the deals, the business, the jobs, and the opportunities that are not realised because of the tax system that this Parliament has put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIf people think like that, they will want this\u2014they will want the tax system to be fair. It is fair to say that fairness is somewhat in the eyes of the beholder, but let us discuss both concepts. If we want a tax system to be efficient\u2014that is, to raise a set amount of money in the least costly way\u2014then, indeed, we will have a low flat tax on income, or a consumption tax like GST. That is the way we will do it. And we will say to ourselves: \u201CWe are not going to have a tax system that is designed to push people a certain way, or that tells us how to spend our remaining bits of money left after the tax has been taken.\u201D No, because when we do that, we distort the economy, we add costs to the tax system, and we complicate the tax code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo we would be looking for, maybe, a flat tax of something like 18c in the dollar and a GST of 12.5c in the dollar, and then people would be left with the money above that to spend as they choose, not as politicians think they should choose. That is what we would be doing; not saying \u201CWe think saving\u2019s a great idea. Let us allow people to keep some of their money if they save it.\u201D, or \u201CWe think research and development is a good idea and we will give tax breaks for that.\u201D No, we would not say that, because that is just politicians telling people what to do with their own money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is another thing. We would not be having this argument about tax rates of 39c and 33c in the dollar, because we would be thinking about tax from the point of view of efficiency and fairness. We would say that the fair proposition is that if someone earns twice as much money as others, they should pay twice as much tax\u2014not three times as much, not four times as much, and not 100 times as much, as can happen under the Labour Government, but twice as much. People can live with that, but they cannot live with the idea that as they earn more money they should pay not just progressively more tax but exponentially more tax, because that quells any incentive to be entrepreneurial, to invest, and to get ahead. That is another feature we have seen in our current tax code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut there is a big elephant in the whole room of this debate about tax, and it is the one that I think we have to link in much more closely\u2014that is, we cannot talk about tax cuts, or what tax rates should be, unless we get Government expenditure under control. As long as politicians sit there and view the cash they take off New Zealanders through the tax system as a war chest to spend on policies to win an election, then no tax cuts will be sustainable, taxes will continue to rise, New Zealand\u2019s economy will continue to be sluggish, our performance will be poor, and our best and brightest will leave for overseas climates. In order to get a strong economy, in order to get savings, and in order to get interest rates down, one thing is needed, and that is for the Government to get its own spending under control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EGovernment spending is not under control. This Parliament cannot begin to scrutinise the spending of Government departments that are running out of control. The budgets are simply too big. When I first came here I made a bit of a name for myself by exposing the odd million dollars, $10 million, or $20 million that was wasted. I made a bit of a name for myself, but I soon realised that those sums were a pittance because while I was doing that, this Parliament had gone from spending $100 million a day every day to $150 million a day. That is what happened. While we were saving by exposing the odd scandal of around a few million, actual Government spending was going up by billions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat should we do about it? It seems to me, and to the ACT party, that we do need some discipline on ourselves and on Governments to constrain Government spending. I think we should agree to hold Government spending at the rate of inflation. How is that for a start? Then Government spending can increase to compensate for inflation, but it cannot go beyond that. We constrain ourselves. If the Government wants to spend more money, there is a simple solution to that: ask the people. Let us have a referendum and say \u201CLook, we have all these great projects. We have got KiwiSaver, and this and that, and we want to spend the money on that.\u201D Let us ask taxpayers if they want their taxes to go up this year at a rate faster than inflation. I know that it seems odd to people in this House that we would actually ask for taxpayers\u2019 consent, but, after all, it is their money. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba1d772054c041f383a6692af47b280e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba1d772054c041f383a6692af47b280e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the third readings of the three bills arising from the Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226764998dec34de4815f5e037661c3bd\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Pay the money back!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a51d5632608414a99e098b8738e3010\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Seeing as those members want me to talk about paying the money back, I will talk about that in a moment. Firstly, I say that New Zealand First supports, and always has done, any cut in taxation that we possibly can support. We support savings wherever and however we see them packaged, we support incentives that give an advantage to our producers and our entrepreneurs as opposed to those in other countries, and we support the Government to help our businesses wherever it can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe believe that the Working for Families package is a positive thing, and that it sends the right messages and does the right thing. I say for about the sixth time that if at the time of the last election\u2014around the time when Working for Families came out\u2014we had adopted across-the-board tax cuts as proposed by the Opposition, I would have received something in the vicinity of $90-odd a week extra, as an MP, which I would have enjoyed. As opposed to that my son, who has a very good job, and his wife have recently had their second child. She was off work\u2014off paid work, I might say, but working harder than ever as a mother\u2014and they would have received nothing under across-the-board tax cuts. Under the Working for Families package they received in excess of $100 per week, and I received nothing. [Interruption] We will never cross the divide on that argument, because it is a philosophical one. We in New Zealand First believe that Working for Families is the right way to go, and we support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ETalking about principle, Mr Hide made a statement that we are not acting in a principled way in New Zealand First. I say to members that if we believe that we have not done wrong, if we believe that we have been served badly by circumstances or a wrong decision, and if we believe that the principle is wrong, then it is wrong to go, under pressure, and pay back money when we do not believe we owe it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c2b84d8f1a4baab4c0163a75a1c8ba\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Pay it back to the tax department!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022debc06684156432db0a5902e12785198\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about principled decisions now; we are not talking about the tax department, or anything close to the tax department. If we want to act in a principled way\u2014and, as a party, we want to give the message that we understand people\u2019s concerns, but we will not fulfil the demands of people who demand wrongly that we pay some money back that we do not believe we owe\u2014then we take a principled decision and give the money to a worthy charity. That is what we have done. We have paid the money to a charity, and good will come out of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdc2b960c2ec40e5a75b2b8eafb44991\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: You stole taxpayers\u2019 money!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1a9e5bffcc3467e97bd5396380a9576\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Let the members in the Opposition tell me whether they would take the money off Starship Children\u2019s Health. Would they take it away from those children? Will they say that that money is not doing good? Are they saying that that money will not help a child in New Zealand? Are they saying that that money does not help the community? Are they saying that that is not the right thing to do? If they are saying that, let them go into the public, and stand on a platform at election time and say that they would take that money off Starship Children\u2019s Health and deny those children the opportunity for health. That is what we call a principled decision. I come back to the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd8e12d0dd8422da510d59baeb2d7b9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You stole taxpayers\u2019 money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236aa80766a924cda838ed5b6d873be2e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: We have not stolen any money, and we certainly do not use $7 million of public money like the National Party does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe support this legislation because we believe it does all of the right things for society. It sends the right messages, it provides help where it is needed, and it is good for society overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00227cb0bb2b6ed24ea891d3c4b3e1f754d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cb0bb2b6ed24ea891d3c4b3e1f754d4\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to give a brief contribution on two points in the legislation before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe first one is in relation to the tax cut debate that has been going on here. The National Party and Mr Hide have talked a lot about the need for greater tax cuts, and that has been debated both here and in the public domain. The Green Party considers it unfortunate that the debate in this House, in particular, is always between whether we should have higher or lower rates of income tax, or, for that matter, company tax. We believe that it is time to redefine the question of what is being taxed. Outside this House there is increasing recognition of and support for the use of Pigovian taxes and other forms of eco-taxation as a way of both simultaneously addressing environmental problems and raising revenue, ideally to provide a means to reduce income tax as a result. The Green Party will continue to push for the use of those forms of taxation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other issue relates to KiwiSaver, where the Green Party would have liked to see substantial ethical investment criteria set out in the legislation. There are obviously strong incentives for New Zealanders to participate in the KiwiSaver scheme, and we support it, but it seems obvious to us that making substantial ethical investment criteria part of the package would have been a sensible thing to do. We think it is unfortunate that that has not happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOn both of those fronts, we consider the failure to incorporate those ideas to be a lost opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u00226497c913a9704bdc862cebec2dd9ec94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226497c913a9704bdc862cebec2dd9ec94\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am going to take a brief call on these bills that enact promises outlined in the 2007 Budget, and which are the latest example of this Labour-led Government keeping its promises to continue the process of New Zealand\u2019s economic transformation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn this third reading speech I want to address three of the matters that are dealt with in this legislation\u2014KiwiSaver, the company tax cut, and the research and development tax credits. I will start with KiwiSaver. An important aspect of these bills is the enhancement made to KiwiSaver, first, in the Budget, secondly, in the recommendations coming from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and, thirdly, in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. To refocus KiwiSaver, definitions have been reviewed, loopholes have been closed, and general submissions as to the burden on companies and individuals have been considered and dealt with. This bill will ensure that the original aims of KiwiSaver will be met in the fairest and most efficient way possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe enhancements to KiwiSaver, introduced by this legislation, will make it even more attractive to New Zealanders, and they certainly come in a timely fashion. If anyone doubted the need for this scheme, he or she should consider the statistics that I found the other day when I was considering the remarks that I would make on this occasion. Members opposite might be interested to know that in the year to March, prior to the opening of the scheme, savings from all sectors in New Zealand fell to $1.3 billion. This was down from $5.9 billion in 2005, and $7.4 billion in 2004, and our household savings rate remains very poor. New Zealanders spend $1.15 for every $1 saved. Just this month a World Economic Forum report ranked New Zealand 108th out of 131 for our national savings rate. Those are historical scandals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe simply must do something to address those dreadful savings rates, and KiwiSaver starts us along the road. The public understand this. They have embraced the scheme. As the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Revenue observed, over 300,000 New Zealanders have enrolled in the scheme already, after only 6 months of it being open for enrolment. Finally, 32 years after the Kirk Labour Government first sought to guarantee retirement peace of mind to New Zealanders, and after all the years after National dismantled it and put nothing in its place, KiwiSaver, along with the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, accomplish that goal. I cannot describe how proud I am to be about to cast a vote for that future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI want to speak briefly also about the company tax rate and the research and development tax credits. I am not one of those people, like members opposite, who believe in cutting tax for the sake of it. Frankly, anyone who does is a fool. Depriving a State\u2014distant from its markets and with a history of under-investment in infrastructure\u2014of revenues can be downright dangerous, as the 1990s showed us. I am not one of those, like members opposite, who think that tax rates by themselves are the only determinant of where companies choose to base themselves. If they were, no company would ever elect to base itself in the United States with a federal company tax rate of 39.3 percent, or Japan 39.5 percent, or Germany 38.9 percent. For the foreseeable future, clearly we will never compete, nor should we, with ultra-low corporate tax regimes in nations like Singapore and Hong Kong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, though, it is clearly desirable to maintain rates of taxation that are broadly competitive with those jurisdictions in our neighbourhood and with those with living standards with which we like to compare ourselves. Australia is obviously relevant in this regard, having cut its corporate tax rate last year to 30 percent. Even though we have to treat comparisons with Australia with some caution as we have a very simple tax system, unlike Australia\u2019s system with its payroll tax, superannuation levies, Medicare surcharges, and stamp duties, it was clearly important to consider following suit and to make the necessary amendments. We now do so and, as Dr Cullen said, we are doing it in the first cut in corporate tax rates in New Zealand since Labour was last in office in 1988. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe value of these tax cuts to New Zealand business next year will be $2.1 billion. Astonishingly, members opposite, whose rhetoric is all about cutting tax\u2014indeed, it seems to be their only policy\u2014are voting against this legislation. This legislation also introduces a 15 percent research and development tax credit to bring us into line with the many other developed countries that invest in building know-how in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EJust as KiwiSaver is addressing our abysmal savings record, so too research and development tax credits will help to raise the level of private sector investment in research and development in New Zealand. It will benefit business to the tune of $630 million in its first year of operation. I really do believe that this measure will help New Zealand businesses to expand domestically and overseas, to improve their ability to research and develop new products, and to invest in skilled staff. All this will drive higher productivity with internationally competitive firms selling products for which international consumers will pay a premium. These outcomes are absolutely key to our future economic success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI say in conclusion that New Zealand is enjoying the longest period of economic growth in 30 years. Since 1999 our average growth rates have outstripped those of Europe, Japan, the US, and the UK. Company tax returns show that recent profit growth has averaged some 20 percent per annum. We continue to rate highly in terms of international competitiveness, openness, freedom from corruption, and ease of doing business. Unemployment at 3.6 percent is at record lows, and labour force participation is at record highs. None of this is happening by accident. It is in very large part a legacy of Michael Cullen\u2019s excellent economic management, typified by the measures contained in this legislation. Long may that continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00222b3ae38c13f440d499de2c6ea632ca7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b3ae38c13f440d499de2c6ea632ca7d\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. At the end of this month all Ng\u0101i Tahu wh\u0101nui who have joined the Whai Rawa programme will be eligible to receive the next distribution from Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu. The distribution of some $250 is twice as much as last year. Every dollar that a member contributes to his or her savings under Whai Rawa will receive $1 in matched savings from Ng\u0101i Tahu. It gets even better for Ng\u0101i Tahu rangatahi, youth, who are matched at a ratio of 4:1. So if one of their young people under 16 years of age saves $15, Ng\u0101i Tahu will match it with $60. This is M\u0101ori enterprise and success at its absolute best. It is a programme designed to provide a base level of saving for all registered Ng\u0101i Tahu members, as well as supporting a culture of savings and asset building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAt the end of July 2007 there were over 6,300 members and over $1.5 million invested. But the entrepreneurial capacity of Ng\u0101i Tahu is confined not only to their steady membership and the fund size of their medium to long term savings scheme. The influence of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu is also felt in this legislation. Ng\u0101i Tahu specifically lobbied to ensure there was creativity and clarity around the retirement scheme contribution tax. Their efforts have been rewarded through the provisions that Ng\u0101i Tahu have promoted, which means that contribution tax can be directed at source, rather than 6,300 members having to make their own individual contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe commend Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu for their efforts, and we acknowledge also the sponsor of this legislation, the Hon Peter Dunne, for being willing to do what was necessary to achieve simplicity and clarity. We also note that this legislation enables the retirement contribution to be offset by any imputation credit or M\u0101ori authority credit. These two initiatives, we believe, will avoid setting up a whole new raft of compliance issues that can only run the risk of creating non-compliance breaches at an individual level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe legislation we are debating today sets the annual income tax rates for the 2007-08 year, introduces amendments to encourage voluntary compliance with tax obligations, and amends other Acts and regulations such as the KiwSaver Act 2006. In many respects there are some positive proposals included within the legislation. We welcome the tax credit for research and development, and support the changes made in the select committee to the eligibility criteria for clarity purposes and to make them less restrictive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe believe that it is a very positive initiative to establish a tax credit for science and technology - based research and development conducted predominantly in New Zealand by New Zealand businesses, and we are confident that such support will pay dividends in the long run. We support also the tax incentives for charitable donations. We accept the rationale of submitters who suggested that increasing the tax incentives will in itself increase the opportunity for charitable giving. We will be interested to learn how the Inland Revenue Department will take this into account in its review of tax incentives, which is to be reported back on 31 March 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe other major development we wish to speak to in this legislation is the recommendation that the minimum employee contribution be reduced to 2 percent to facilitate greater participation in the KiwiSaver scheme. At the second reading of the legislation, my colleague Hone Harawira revealed the results of the Marae DigiPoll carried out just 1 month ago, in which it was disclosed that 84 percent of the 1,000-strong group polled had decided not to join the KiwiSaver scheme\u201484 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EYet although there was such little interest in KiwiSaver, there was enormous interest in the issue of tax cuts. Tax cuts were one of the highest priorities. We in the M\u0101ori Party are very interested in the whole concept of support for tax cuts. Manaakitanga and rangatiratanga lead us to address the impacts for low-income taxpayers. We certainly are of the view that those people on lower incomes should carry less burden proportionately than those who are on high income levels. We know, for instance, that 1.9 million taxpayers are on an income of $25,000 or less and that these people are paying $1.5 billion in tax while the Government is accumulating surpluses of $4 billion to $7 billion per year. It is this group that should benefit from tax cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI come back to the issues with KiwiSaver. We are pleased to note that following advocacy from the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, the National Distribution Union, and the New Zealand Nurses Organisation the minimum employee contribution will be reduced to 2 percent in order to facilitate greater participation in KiwiSaver. The recommendation that came back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee duly included a minimum contribution rate of 2 percent of gross salary until 31 March 2010, 3 percent from 1 April 2010, and 4 percent from 1 April 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAlthough we are pleased that the recommendation for a lower contribution rate for KiwiSaver was accepted, we were disappointed that another recommendation from the combined unions that under 18-year-olds should be eligible for KiwiSaver was not accepted. We did have to wonder at the evident flaws in the argument that opening up the door for people under 18 might reduce incentives for young people to remain in education and training. We have to ask whether this will be another piece of legislation that acts against the interests of our young people, just as, for instance, we saw the Minimum Wage (Abolition of Age Discrimination) Bill have the words \u201Cage discrimination\u201D removed from the title, and promptly do exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ELike many of thesemultifaceted bills, some very positive changes are included alongside the not so desirable changes. We support the tax credit facility for research and development, tax relief for donations, tax exemptions for Tokelau and Niue trusts, and the lower contribution rate agreed to for KiwiSaver. But we have to once more temper our support by asking the constant question: when will we see tax changes for the poor that will bring about justice for those who are not currently enjoying an enviable standing of living? We wonder why the endless name changes are necessary. The terminology that has been associated with tax\u2014for example, credits for families, the in-work tax credit, the parental tax credit, Working for Families tax credits, family assistance, family support, and minimum family tax credits\u2014just adds layer upon layer of confusion, which makes an already alien concept like taxation even more inaccessible to the general public. It is just as nonsensical as the logic around excluding 18-year-olds from being able to join. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this legislation, and we hope that some of the issues we have raised here tonight will be given further consideration in the interests of the well-being and the wealth of all peoples of Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00220b1a71e7b522408f8a74ec876e961ef9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b1a71e7b522408f8a74ec876e961ef9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E There are lots of businesses in my electorate, and I will tell those businesses that the National Party voted against a tax cut for them. I will tell the businesses in my electorate that when National, the so-called party of tax cuts, had a chance to vote for a reduction in the corporate tax rate, it voted against that\u2014again. I am absolutely going to tell them that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ELots of businesses in my electorate do research and development. I have something to tell those companies, which wanted a tax incentive to be provided for research and development. [Interruption] Mr Bennett has been saying he supports a tax incentive for research and development. I will ask those companies whether they know that when the Government took legislation to Parliament that gave companies incentives for research and development, Mr Bennett voted against it. I will tell them that all Mr Bennett did was to shout and scream across the House. He would not stand up and make a speech to tell people why he was voting against research and development incentives. He just shouted across the House. I will tell businesses that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI will tell the companies in my electorate that make charitable donations that when the Government put forward legislation to try to improve the incentives for that, the National Party voted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263f96acea9544daf9eec7e3d3eaad6ac\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b5b397adaf4a7dacbda5c66a3330fb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yep\u2014National members did. They voted against incentives and improved contributions for companies, which they had been calling for for some time. Pansy Wong stood in this House and said she was pleased that that would happen. I will say to those companies that when National members had the chance to vote for that, they voted against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThen, of course, I will be talking to lots of people in my electorate who have joined the KiwiSaver scheme. I will tell those people that when the Government introduced legislation to make improvements to the KiwiSaver scheme, so that when they retire they will have more money in their pockets\u2014which I thought the National Party was in favour of\u2014the National Party voted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b6cbeb9a4541499572629dc31a4cd2\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0af8f52b5f4580821f54ee31448b65\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: National voted against it. No one has given us any reason why that should be; National members just shout across the House. [Interruption] No, I did not hear anything from the National Party as to the reason for that. I think National will remove those incentives. In fact, the message that is going out is simply that if people vote for National, the KiwiSaver scheme is in peril. In my view, it is gone if the National Party gets in. That is just a message of warning to the voters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ENow, a few workers in my electorate have been made redundant, particularly at South Pacific Tyres. I will tell those workers and their families that when the Government introduced a scheme in this legislation to give them a tax rebate of 6c in the dollar on their redundancy payments, the National Party voted against it. The National Party voted against a tax rebate on their redundancy payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EFinally, there are taxpayers in my electorate who have suffered penalties\u2014we know people who have suffered penalties. I will tell the taxpayers in my electorate that the Government listened to what they said. We said that the penalty regime was too rigid, and that we would introduce a scheme to make it more flexible and more reasonable, in order to encourage compliance. I will tell them that the National Party voted against that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ENational voted against tax cuts for business, voted against incentives for research and development, voted against improvements for companies that wanted to make donations to charities, voted against increased incentives for KiwiSaver, voted against a better redundancy for workers, and voted against a more liberalised scheme for the penalties that taxpayers have to pay. National is a party that has only one policy: tax cuts. It is the only tax policy it has. Of course, we waited during the entire debate on this legislation to hear what National\u2019s policy was. There was not one dicky-bird, not one sausage, and not one mention of what the National Party was going to do. National talks about making tax cuts when it is in Opposition; it never gives them when it is in Government, of course. It has talked about tax cuts for years. Here was the chance for National members to stand up and say what they were going to do, and there was not one mention of that\u2014not one dicky-bird. And when the National members had the chance to vote for tax cuts, they decided to vote against them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI want someone to explain the reason for that. I cannot understand it. Maybe I am missing something. Maybe I am not bright enough to get the little nuances from the National Party. But I do not understand why, when the National members had a chance to vote for tax cuts, they voted against them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, all I will say is that the National Party supports tax cuts; it says it is in favour of tax cuts. But when it is in Opposition and it gets the chance to vote for tax cuts, it votes against them. That is why no one will trust National on tax cuts. I say roll on next year!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00227f00d6b4ee2545e2b698ef0983e80b89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f00d6b4ee2545e2b698ef0983e80b89\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was Mr Paul Swain, the hard-working MP from Rimutaka, who just gave an election platform speech for the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe6489bebe24cbe9190e5da02e12c22\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: And very good it was, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1d632d93a9441e29b0989e22f0f0e82\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: There is one problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dcc32ccfc1b438a8b97ae03751549e1\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c5506e8c4f4716bdda934940fb34e2\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Swain will not be giving that speech, because he is, in fact, retiring from Parliament at what I would suggest is a very good time in his career. He is retiring before the Labour Party is run out of office. So I say to Mr Swain \u201CWell done!\u201D; that was a good election platform speech, but unfortunately the electorate will not be hearing that one when it comes to the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to get into the taxation debate, but before I do that I must comment about the antics of Mr Winston Peters this afternoon. The leader of New Zealand First, before waltzing into the Chamber, quietly had a look at himself in the window to make sure he was looking just right for the occasion. He came in, sat down next to Mr Woolerton, and requested leave of the House to table a picture of himself\u2014a picture of his giving a gift to Starship Children\u2019s Health hospital. I am a short-term MP here, but the arrogance of that is hard to justify, and I cannot understand it. It begs the question whether young MPs like myself should be seeking leave to table pictures of ourselves giving donations to charities in, say, Napier, because we do not feel like paying our Bellamy\u2019s bill on a particular occasion. Quite frankly, it was unbelievable. But we are not here to debate those antics; we are here to discuss the third readings of the taxation legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to get to the guts of why National is not supporting this legislation. Mr Swain stood over there and spoke at length about how he could not understand why we are against it. Various members across that side of the House have tried to say that our opposition to this legislation is all about protecting our rich mates. Well, if they call nurses, policemen, and wharfies our rich mates, then maybe they are right. If they call builders, plumbers, engineers, and fitters and turners our rich mates, then maybe they are right. If they call university staff, plumbers, and Wellington bureaucrats our rich mates, then maybe they are right. We believe that hard-working Kiwis are being overtaxed, and this legislation does nothing to resolve it\u2014absolutely nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to talk to five specific points this afternoon to put our side of the argument as to why we are not supporting the legislation. The first point is the increasing tax burden, and the second is the quantity\u2014the mountain of tax that has been collected in the last 6 years. I want to touch on fiscal drag, I want to look at our surpluses vis-\u00E0-vis Australia\u2019s, and, lastly, I want to finish on the chance of tax cuts under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EOnce again, we think Labour has overtaxed hard-working Kiwis, and, as a result, we will not be supporting this legislation. In terms of the increasing tax burden, when Labour came into office and introduced the 39 percent tax rate, Dr Cullen said on 23 December 1999 that 95 percent of people will not be asked to pay more tax, and that, instead, only the top 5 percent of income earners will pay more. According to Cullen\u2019s answers to questions in the House just recently, not 5 percent but 12.9 percent of taxpayers are now expected to pay the top income tax rate in the 2008 income year. They include those nurses, those wharfies, and those fitters and turners who are now in that top tax bracket, and who that side of the House believes are rich. Treasury\u2019s key facts paper released on Budget day actually goes further than 12 percent; it states that 14 percent of taxpayers are now paying that level of taxation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ERemember also, and more important, that virtually everyone\u2014not just those top taxpayers but virtually everyone\u2014is paying more tax because of bracket creep. People on the 19.5 percent rate will have drifted to 33 percent simply because of CPI increases in their wages without any accompanying adjustment to the bracket levels. Bracket creep means that in real terms our tax rates increase subtly every year as we earn more income and move to higher tax brackets. As a result, a person on the average wage now pays an extra $2,400 in personal income tax a year than he or she did in 2000, despite being no better off in real terms. It is those people who have moved into higher tax brackets who that side of the House believes are in the rich category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ENote too that our top tax rate kicks in at only 1.4 times the average wage. Although Australia has a higher top personal tax rate\u2014National members acknowledge that\u2014it kicks in at $180,000, not $60,000. That is what catches our nurses, that is what catches our policemen, and that is what catches our wharfies. Do members on this side of the House think that nurses, teachers, and wharfies are rich? No, not one iota. We think Labour has overtaxed those hard-working Kiwis, and as a result we do not support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESecondly, in terms of the quantum of the tax burden, let us have a look at how much tax has been collected over the last 6 years. In the year ended 30 June 2000, $34.4 billion was collected in tax in this country. In the year ended 30 June 2007, it had risen to $56.5 billion. That is a whopping $22.1 billion increase in taxation across the country over those 6 years\u2014$5,525 per man, woman, and child in this country in extra taxation\u2014a whopping 64 percent increase in additional taxation. If that is not reason enough to be voting against this legislation, then I do not know what is. National members think Labour has overtaxed hard-working Kiwis, and as a result we are not supporting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe third point is fiscal drag, which is the net effect of additional tax collected through people rising into higher tax brackets. Fiscal drag in New Zealand since 1 April 2000 is estimated as being in the order of $1 billion in extra income tax revenue. Since 2000 Australia has increased tax thresholds and reduced tax rates. Like I said before, the top personal income tax threshold has increased in Australia over that period from $60,000\u2014where we are at now\u2014to $180,000. The lower personal tax rate, which applies immediately after the tax-free threshold\u2014yes, the Australians have a tax-free threshold, which they are aiming to pick up to $20,000 over the next 6 years\u2014has reduced from 17 to 15 percent. So, above the tax-free threshold, if one is a low-income earner, the lower rate that one pays is 15 percent. These tax changes have largely offset the effects of fiscal drag in that country, and that was a key reason behind average take-home pay increasing in Australia over recent years. Between 2000 and 2006, the gross average hourly wage in Australia increased by 34.3 percent, and the average net income increased at a similar rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBut here in New Zealand, between 2000 and 2006 the gross average hourly wage increased by only 22.1 percent. New Zealand net incomes have grown at a slower rate. That has to do with income taxation. That has to do with the personal tax rates that we charge people in the middle and lower income levels. Changes to those levels can have a massive impact on the take-home pay of hard-working Kiwis, and that is why we are not voting for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThis situation has been exacerbated in no small way by the number of Kiwis moving to Australia. There were 75,000 last year in total, with net migration of some 40,000. Dr Cullen wrote that off as a lifestyle choice. He said people were leaving because of a lifestyle choice. Then he went on to say that they are functionally innumerate and we do not need them anyway. Unbelievable! In closing, I say that I think those people understand the numbers. I believe they are not functionally innumerate. They understand that the tax rates are lower there and that they earn a better wage there, and that is why they are going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3e407d5521a4ca68f1d64973215c733\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3e407d5521a4ca68f1d64973215c733\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the third readings of the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill, the Taxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill, and the Taxation (KiwiSaver) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I acknowledge the Minister in the chair for the Committee stage, Peter Dunne. He sat in that seat and listened very carefully to what the debate was about, and he responded on a very regular basis in order to address the concerns we had in relation to the original Taxation (Annual Rates, Business Taxation, KiwiSaver, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I realise I am new to this House, and I have spoken few times compared with everybody else, but it is not often that I have watched a Minister sit there, listen intently to the debate, respond, and add some value to the debate as a bill has gone through the Committee stage. That is what he did, and I acknowledge that, because we appreciate the respect he showed in paying attention to what we were saying during the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EAt the same time, I apologise to the officials who normally would be sitting on those seats by the Chair. They sat here all last night, until 10 o\u2019clock\u2014because we sat until 10 o\u2019clock on this legislation\u2014and they listened and took notes. Then they came back into the Chamber this morning to listen to the rest of the Committee stage. Obviously, they did not realise that this debate on the legislation would come up now. The legislation is being rushed through\u2014that is what happens in urgency; things are pushed through this House, instead of being planned out\u2014and they have not been able to make it back for the third readings. I apologise to those officials. They do good work for this Parliament and this Government, and they work long and hard to try to make legislation as good as they can for the Government at the time. I apologise to those officials who have done the long yards for us and who are not here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI must say that during the Committee stage I was expecting the Labour MPs to take a lot more calls than they did. I think one call was taken, by Charles Chauvel, in over 2 hours of debate this morning, and that is disappointing, because this legislation is really important for New Zealanders. The fact that Labour members did not give it enough respect during the Committee stage to get up to speak to it and support it says something about this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI have been sitting here during these third readings and I have been disappointed again in the personal attacks happening in this House\u2014the attacks Michael Cullen made against Lockwood Smith\u2014and I really think we can do better for New Zealanders. I think New Zealanders are getting frustrated by the personal attacks that are happening in this House. It is about time we raised the level of debate in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI come to the taxation bills that we are here to talk about. This legislation is very comprehensive and it has taken a long time to come before the House, but the thing that strikes me about it is that there is nothing about personal taxes. People are coming to our constituency offices to talk about how they do not have enough money, and how they find it hard to make ends meet. One would think this legislation would address that at some level, but, no, there is nothing about personal tax cuts in it. In fact, soon this Government will not have to worry about it, because 40,000 people a year are leaving this country to go where they can get tax cuts\u2014Australia. More and more people are leaving. Steve Chadwick over there is laughing her head off, thinking it is funny, but it is not, because what we are losing are the people we want to keep\u2014good, hard-working New Zealanders. We want them to stay in New Zealand and get ahead under their own steam because we have a good environment for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708f7df78e7841d4a47be1ec775ed3f7\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah, it was fantastic in the 1990s. It was wonderful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224577d6d4b3c34145b194bdea295aad7a\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS\u003C/span\u003E: We hear Labour members say \u201CWhat about 1990?\u201D. I do not actually care about 1990. I care about the future. I care about the future for myself, my family, and my children. If that member wants to sit there and talk about 1990 and live in the past, she should please do so, because next year, in 2008, when the people of New Zealand get to have their say, they will not say that they want a worn-out, tired Government, which you are, because you have no answers to any of these issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce2a3aeaa8f4e678051af8f871f0396\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228483f86127e041c09f92e7cb3c59991c\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Assistant Speaker. The people of New Zealand will be asking for a change of Government, and they will put National on to the Government benches. That is what will happen, because they are sick of this Labour Government interfering in their lives and not delivering what Labour said it would deliver. Take, for example, the \u201Cchewing gum tax cuts\u201D. Where are they? Where are they in this tax legislation? They are absolutely nowhere. Many, many more people will be joining those 40,000 people who left last year to go to Australia to get the tax cuts that they deserve because they are hard-working New Zealanders. The Government over there does not believe in building the kitty like the Government here does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI looked at this tax legislation in quite a bit of detail the other day, when I knew I would be speaking on it, and I could not figure out where the long-term strategy for tax was. Where are we going with our taxation policies in New Zealand? The Minister of Revenue is in charge of this legislation. He has advocated for 24 years for income splitting\u2014that is his passion. He has been in charge of this legislation. He has charged ahead, taken the lead, and gone out there, but there is nothing in this legislation about his passion. There is nothing about what he really believes will make a difference to New Zealanders, which is income splitting. He has put together this tax legislation, but he has not put in it what he believes in. So how much is his heart in it, and does he really have a long-term strategy, considering that he thinks he will change this legislation in a year\u2019s time? That is not what the people of New Zealand want. They want to see a Government that is committed to a long-term tax strategy that will get us ahead in the years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EAt the same time, the Government should be interested in protecting its revenue base. That is very important for this country, if we want to get ahead as a country. What we do not realise when we look at this legislation is that the New Zealand Government is the biggest business in New Zealand. It takes the most money\u2014it has the biggest revenue\u2014of any business in all of New Zealand. Given that it takes in the most revenue in New Zealand and it has no long-term strategy, what does that tell us about this legislation? It tells us quite a bit. It tells us that it has no direction and that it is piecemeal legislation. I truly believe that is what we are seeing here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThis legislation addresses four or five main issues. They are the new research and development tax credits; a reduction in corporate tax rates; the KiwiSaver employer tax credit and compulsory employer contributions; moving the rebate cap on charitable donations, which is what the National Party talked about last year, and which this Government has picked up on; technical changes to portfolio investment entity rules, which have already had changes; offshore portfolio share investment rules; and amendments to tax penalties, which are interesting in themselves. When I was out there in my previous life as a chartered accountant, I talked to those poor business people who try their hardest to keep it together and run their businesses. They have a passion for their small businesses. They are trying to make ends meet, which is really hard for many small businesses out there, and they wear every single hat one can imagine. They do HR, they do finance, they do law, they import\u2014you name it, they do it in their businesses\u2014and then they forget to file a GST return on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EOr they make simple errors because they cannot afford accounting systems. Many small-business people do not know how to use accounting systems, which is even more important; they do not have the time to sit down and learn that, because they are busy trying to run their businesses. So they input a spreadsheet backwards on to a GST return, inputs become outputs and outputs become inputs\u2014it is very easy to do, and many people do it in New Zealand\u2014and all of a sudden they are slammed for a false return, or for a return that is dated incorrectly, or for a return that is on the wrong form. Many businesses do Internet banking today, and they may draw down the wrong form off their Internet banking website. All of a sudden they find that there are a zillion transfers between all these accounts to make up the differences\u2014which the Inland Revenue Department automatically does\u2014and before they know it they have got a muddle and they cannot get out of it. It is such a common theme coming through, which I saw as a chartered accountant. All of a sudden one has four or five different tax accounts within the Inland Revenue Department\u2014one for GST, one for annual tax, one for provisional tax, and so the list goes on. Then one has PAYE and student allowances. It is really difficult for people out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003ETo conclude, I would like to say that this tax legislation that the Government has put together for New Zealanders is disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022688aad5da8d2432fa47ecc1b96656f97\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2007-08) Bill, the Taxation (Business Taxation and Remedial Matters) Bill, and the Taxation (KiwiSaver) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Real Estate Agents Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000561\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d2c0654fc1149b08a6ff56a0de95421\u0022\u003EClimate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f8bc57f91e04a3d813b3b4a80bd1903\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002299ea1a7c039146009a7f2a53607c5fe8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299ea1a7c039146009a7f2a53607c5fe8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Acting Minister for Climate Change Issues)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill be now read a first time. This is a debate about a landmark piece of legislation\u2014the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill\u2014and at the appropriate time I will move that this bill be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe bill establishes two new tools in delivering climate change solutions\u2014an emissions trading scheme, and a preference for renewable energy generation by implementing a 10-year restriction on new fossil fuel thermal-energy generation, with exceptions that ensure the security of New Zealand\u2019s electricity supply. This will assist in meeting the Government\u2019s goal of 90 percent of our electricity generation being from renewable sources by 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EReducing greenhouse gas emissions below \u201Cbusiness as usual\u201D levels is the objective underlying the emissions trading scheme. The broad design of the policy has received considerable praise\u2014both within New Zealand and internationally. I might say, having acted previously for the Minister at the United Nations, our approach caused considerable comment from a number of countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EPeople have by and large accepted that climate change is real and that we must reduce emissions if we are to do our bit in helping the world deal with it. Most people agree that the emissions trading scheme needs to cover all gases and all sectors, and I think this is the difference between the approach New Zealand is taking and the approach of many countries so far. Overall, and generally, they agree with a gradual, staged introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s approach is to maximise the scheme\u2019s environmental integrity while minimising any costs and adverse effects. The Government will assist households and businesses to adapt, and will provide a smooth and gradual transition. The Government has relaxed the penalty regime and set up a consultative process to develop allocation plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EOther key issues that arose during the previous engagement focused on three key aspects: how the Government should assist through the free allocation of units to sectors and within sectors; how the market will operate in terms of international linkages, liquidity, and the unit of trade; and the treatment of pre-1990 forest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe legislation maintains a policy of free allocation of units, as was discussed in the framework document. It makes clear that the planned review of the emissions trading scheme must consider our allocation model in the context of the emissions pricing policies of major trading partners. Even in the last few weeks, the international competition issues for our economy have decreased as a result of the new Australian Government\u2019s decision to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, and through it to take on a binding cap on its emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EFinal considerations on the matter of the phase-out of allocations are not complete, and the ongoing views of stakeholders through the Climate Change Leadership Forum and other ongoing engagement are important. The legislation also contains the Government\u2019s preferred approach around issues such as international linkages to other emission trading schemes, liquidity, and the unit of trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAn important issue on which the Government has yet to make a decision at this point is the inclusion, or not, of the so-called hot air assigned amount units in the emissions trading scheme. Hot air units is the term given to certain Kyoto units issued to countries like Russia and the Ukraine under the Kyoto Protocol. These units represent real emissions reductions in Russia, whose ratification of the Kyoto Protocol was crucial to it coming into effect. The Government intends to analyse a series of options prior to making a final decision next year. The ongoing engagement with stakeholders will be highly relevant to this consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe existing Climate Change Response Act provides a regulation-making power to impose restrictions on the units that may enter the New Zealand Emission Unit Register and what they can be used for. The bill re-enacts this power, making it possible to place restrictions on hot air units if the decision is to do so. Any changes to the rules on what units can be surrendered for compliance or held in the registry will not apply retrospectively, and the bill makes this clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn respect of pre-1990 forest, the Government\u2019s proposal would see compensation for landowners on the basis of hectares of forest. The Government has not been able to identify any fairer method for targeting that assistance. The overall level of allocation to deforestation is generous, and it is equal to the full amount of deforestation emissions at historic rates of deforestation. Some forest owners purchased their forests after the cap on deforestation was announced. Some forest owners have deforested significantly in the period since the cap was announced, and others have been unable to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe bill is silent on how units will be distributed to individual landowners, and provides a process for an allocation plan to provide for free allocation to landowners of pre-1990 forest. The allocation plan will be publicly released in draft form, and submissions will be considered before the final plan is agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for a self-assessment model, in which participants who do activities must monitor their activities, record their emissions, report them, and surrender units to cover the emissions. Provision is also made for participants undertaking removal activities, such as afforestation of post-1989 forest land, to earn units for every tonne of emissions they remove from the atmosphere. The administering agency will have the powers to audit participants\u2019 compliance with their obligations, and to take enforcement action where there is failure to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EImportant issues remain upon which the Government has yet to make decisions. We are determined to engage fully in these issues over the next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe legislation being introduced includes default provisions for all sectors, including activities on the dates upon which sectors assume obligations, which align with the announced dates of entry into the scheme. The bill also sets broad parameters that will govern the free allocation of units to the forestry, industrial, and agricultural sectors, although it does not state the total number of units available for allocation to the industrial or agricultural sector, or precisely which individuals and firms within the sectors will receive a free allocation of units. The inclusion of these default provisions in no way negates the Government\u2019s commitment to ongoing engagement with stakeholders on implementation issues. The default provisions are included because an essential principle of the scheme\u2019s design is that it applies fairly across all sectors and to all greenhouse gases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt is important that there is certainty to all sectors, in the absence of further legislative action, that they will be covered by the scheme. It is important that the forestry and transport sectors, which are entering the scheme first, have the assurance that they will not be alone in having obligations under the scheme. The option of either a processor or a farm-level obligation in the agricultural sector is one example where the Government wishes to consult further before making a final decision and where the legislation allows either decision to be implemented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EOne important element in the original framework of the emissions trading scheme elicited little debate, indicating a broad consensus. That was the overall objective of the scheme. The objective outlines the need to establish a new equilibrium between environmental impacts and economic growth. For too long there has been an imbalance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere must be a concerted international response to climate change. Emissions trading is a crucial element of New Zealand\u2019s response. It is especially pleasing that the framework we launched in September has received strong support in many quarters, including reviews by internationally respected organisations. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022a084bdbdf021416286a08fd01cdc72f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a084bdbdf021416286a08fd01cdc72f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the first reading of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill because we believe that an emissions trading system is the sensible approach for New Zealand to take in response to the huge challenge of climate change. In fact, back in 1999 the National Government did a large amount of policy work on this subject and it concluded that an emissions trading system was the right way forward. When the current Government proposed a carbon tax, National members said that an emissions trading system was a better option. Then 18 months ago, when we produced A Bluegreen Vision for New Zealand, we again said an emissions trading system was the right way forward. The irony is that at that time Labour heavily criticised the proposal. We now welcome the fact that there is consensus between the major parties that an emissions trading system, covering all sectors and all gases, is the right way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe reason National believes that emissions trading systems are the foundation for a sensible climate change policy is that pricing signals are the best way in which to incentivise people in forestry, agriculture, energy, and transport to make better decisions in respect of the environment. We think that a little country like New Zealand needs to take into account the decisions that other countries are making, as we respond to the challenge of global climate change. We look at the United States, where 23 states are now part of emissions trading schemes. We look at Canada, we look at the European community, and we look at the decision of both the previous Government of Australia and the new Government, all of which have come to the same conclusion that an emissions trading system is the right way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational believes there are a number of very important detailed issues in how emissions trading systems are put together, and believes also that this bill needs very heavy scrutiny. The Acting Minister Trevor Mallard noted the issue of whether we should accept into our market Kyoto-compliant units from those Eastern European countries. In truth that will probably make it less expensive. It will make it more unstable, and it may mean it has less environmental integrity. National members look forward to detailed work at the select committee to make the right choice around that important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is the big issue about allocation plans. New Zealand has major industries such as agriculture, forestry, steel, aluminium, and cement. National does not want to provide a bill that simply exports those industries and jobs offshore because of the costs that we impose on them in New Zealand. The proposition in the bill for an allocation plan of units to those industries that face competitive issues is the right way to address that. But National raises questions about the very rapid level of removing that assistance where, effectively, from 2012 to 2025 all of that assistance will be taken away. If that is broadly in line with where the international community moves, that would be appropriate. Having just returned from an international parliamentary conference in London and the United Nations conference in Bali, I think the Government is being overly optimistic about the level of international progress, and that is an issue that we will want to visit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EFurthermore, New Zealand needs to understand that in respect of the areas of forestry and agriculture this emissions trading system is unique. To date, no other country has attempted to put land use and the issue of agricultural emissions into an emissions trading scheme. We in National will want to scrutinise those provisions of the bill very closely at the select committee, because New Zealand will pay a high price if we get those provisions wrong. In National\u2019s proposal for an emissions trading system we felt that we should put the electricity sector first rather than the transport sector. The argument is over 1 year. We will not argue heavily about that, although I raise the question of timing. Why has the Government decided to put our landfills that emit emissions at the very last point\u2014in 2013\u2014when all of the evidence is that that is some of the lowest-hanging fruit, of which we can, for the least cost, make the most gains? National\u2019s preference would be to see that sector come in earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI must make comment on the proposition in this bill to put a ban on new thermal generation. We have seen a real hotchpotch of Government policy in this respect. Let me recite the history. The Government intervened in the electricity market in 2002 in levying all New Zealand electricity consumers to build the new Whirinaki oil-fired power plant. It then came along in 2003 and rejected the Dobson hydro scheme, which would have produced renewable energy. The Government intervened and stopped it. It then came along in 2004 and through legislation blocked Project Aqua, the biggest renewable energy project this country has seen in a long time. The next year the Government provided a guarantee for the massive new E3P gas-fired generator at Huntly. And now it will put a ban on new thermal. I simply ask the Government: where is the consistency? One moment it is intervening to stop renewables and to provide Government guarantees for thermal\u2014as for the oil-fired power station and the gas-fired station\u2014and the next minute it does a massive U-turn and wants to completely reject and ban them. Albeit, I have to say I think the ban in the bill is something of a Clayton\u2019s ban in that there are some gigantic outs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI think what is really going on with those provisions is that under this Government we have seen a trebling of the amount of electricity produced from coal. The Government is deeply embarrassed by that. It knows that will be an albatross around its neck as it goes into the next election, and it is trying to cover its base with this Clayton\u2019s ban on thermal generation to save it from its appalling record in that regard. National says that we want to heavily scrutinise all of those issues in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI will also comment on the wider debate around climate change. I am somewhat amused by the debate around climate change in New Zealand as to whether we are going to be a world leader or a fast follower. I have to say, that is like arguing over whether we want the gold medal or the silver medal when we are last in the heats. If we look at this Government\u2019s actual record on emissions we see that it is pretty appalling. If we look at the United Nations and its report on emissions, we see that of the 36 countries that have commitments under the Kyoto Protocol, New Zealand\u2019s record is the fourth worst. Our emissions have gone up by 25 percent. I compare that with our near neighbour Australia. Australia is on track to actually meet its Kyoto Protocol requirements with a growth of 4 percent in its net emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe truth is that because of the shenanigans we have seen in public policy in New Zealand, despite ratifying the Kyoto Protocol in 2002, it is now 2007 and we have lost 5 years. The loss of those 5 years, in which there has not been any substantive policy on climate change, has seen us now with this bill only 2 weeks prior to the Kyoto Protocol coming into effect. We must be honest and say that this bill includes retrospective controls on industries like forestry. The Government has had 5 years to do its work and it let us down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI draw Parliament\u2019s attention also to the international council on integrity around climate change, which, when it takes into account record and policy, again ranks New Zealand at the very bottom end. Labour promised when it came to Government that it would reduce emissions by 20 percent by 2005. It has not. Emissions have gone up by 12 percent. National wants to play a constructive role in getting the right sort of emissions trading system for New Zealand, because climate change is an issue that is bigger than any party in this Parliament or than any single country. We want to take a responsible approach to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00224ca01f5cb77a4e259cc005baaa780ca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ca01f5cb77a4e259cc005baaa780ca1\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad National has joined the 21st century. Last year it was in climate change denial. Last year the National Party was taunting this Government and saying that New Zealand should follow the example of Australia and the United States and not sign up to the Kyoto Protocol. The interesting thing is that had we not signed up, we would now be following Australia to Bali to sign up. What would that make us? It would make us followers, like some other party in this House that I know. The truth is that if we had followed that advice, we would be a laughing stock now. It is a bit rich to be getting advice on the Kyoto Protocol and climate change from the National Party when it has been in denial all along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is exposed to climate change in multiple ways. We face a choice: we can strongly seize the benefits and reduce the liabilities, or we can sit on our hands as the Opposition would have had us do and be exposed to enormous risks. We are more dependent on climate and climate change than any other developed country, because more of our economy is based on climate-dependent production. In our export markets, consumers and regulators are already asking hard questions about the sustainability of our produce. Unless we can say that our exports are from the first truly sustainable country in the world, we will increasingly be shut out of markets upon which we rely. Fortunately for New Zealand, climate change is not only a risk but an opportunity. As consumers are turning away from environmentally damaging products, they are also turning towards environmentally responsible production and are prepared to pay a premium for it. If we can get our own house in order, New Zealand can take advantage of this opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe emissions trading scheme is a landmark in our efforts to address this crucial issue. It puts sustainability at the heart of our economy. The underlying principle behind the emissions trading scheme is that it should cover all sectors and all gases. It therefore has profound effects on the future of our primary industries. The nature of the effects on forestry and agriculture, in particular, deserves special attention. Agricultural sector emissions represent almost half of New Zealand\u2019s total greenhouse gas emissions. These emissions are currently significant because they are a major source of emissions growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIt was not plausible for New Zealand to leave our major industries out of the emissions trading scheme. It would have meant, at the very least, that the cost of the sector\u2019s emissions would need to be paid elsewhere in the economy. So all sectors are in the scheme, but we have also had to design a trading scheme that allows for a smooth transition. Emissions trading allows flexibility in land use while ensuring that decision makers consider the true costs, including the environmental costs, of their choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EWe can particularly see the strength of the emissions trading scheme in the forestry sector. A couple of decades ago, the Government used to provide subsidies to farmers to farm marginal lands more intensively\u2014in other words, to cut down their trees. We ended up with eroding hill country and inadequate protection for our soils, waterways, and communities. Emissions trading turns that around. In Gisborne there is a river on land where farmers were subsidised to cut down all the trees. The bed of the river rose 50 feet. The Government was then asked to pay to help with the flooding that resulted. Emissions trading makes for less erosion, because the scheme gives an economic incentive to plant more trees. Protecting against erosion helps the environment and protects communities. It is much better for farming business than over-intensification of marginal land. The emissions trading scheme allows forest owners to benefit from the value they provide to the rest of us when the forests store carbon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe forest sector will enter the emissions trading scheme on 1 January next year. Forest land will be designated as either pre-1990 or post-1990 forest land. Owners, lessees, and rights holders of forests planted after 1989 can join the scheme if they choose to. They will then receive New Zealand units when their forests grow, and surrender units if their carbon stocks decrease. Depending on the price of carbon, it is likely to be worth at least several hundred million dollars to the forestry sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EOne advantage of the emissions trading scheme is that it allows the benefits and costs from the Kyoto Protocol to be devolved. In fact, the more that costs and benefits are devolved, the more effectively the trading scheme works. It puts the incentives closest to the contributors to the problem and to the solution. From 1 January, owners of exotic forests first planted before 1990 will be liable for emissions if they choose to convert their forest to another land use\u2014for example, if they move from forestry to agriculture. If someone owns a small forest, such as a forest smaller than 50 hectares, and it was planted before 1990, then he or she can be exempted from the scheme. Naturally, if no liabilities are faced, no free allocations will be received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EDeforestation is the second largest source of greenhouse gas emissions globally. Therefore, we have to do something about it. Reducing deforestation is one of the lowest-cost options for reducing emissions. It is also important to address it immediately, as forestry is the one area where individuals can bring forward their emissions to beat any future measure. The Government is easing the transition for the sector. It will meet the cost of 21 million tonnes of deforestation emissions from exotic forests until 2012. An allocation will also be made to cover a further 34 million tonnes of deforestation emissions after 2012. The assistance given to pre-1990 exotic forest owners is equivalent to the historic rate of deforestation over the current exotic forest estate. The first reporting period for deforestation of pre-1990 forests will conclude at the end of 2009, at the same time as transport. The two sectors will be able to trade emission units between themselves. In total, the assistance package offered to pre-1990 exotic forest landowners is worth around $825 million at a carbon price of $15 a tonne. This is a very substantial commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe Government is still looking at the question of indigenous forests. There has been some consultation with owners of indigenous forests planted before 1990. It is unlikely that much of our native forest can be chopped down now, because it is largely protected. For example, we have stopped cutting down 1,000-year-old beech trees on the West Coast, and the region has already been compensated for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EOther sectors, like agriculture, will not come into the emissions trading scheme for a number of years. They still need certainty, and for that reason the bill includes provisions about that point of obligation. Back in 2003 the Government agreed to meet the cost of non - carbon dioxide emissions from agriculture until 2012. In return, the sector increased its research efforts on cost-effective abatement technologies. That agreement has been kept, and agriculture will not come into the emissions trading scheme until 1 January 2013. In the meantime, the agricultural sector will start measuring and reporting its emissions before trading begins from 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThere is more work to do in deciding some issues affecting the sector. One crucial question is where the point of obligation can lie. Options include at the farm level, at the process or company level, or at the sector level. At the moment the Government preference is for a process or company level point of obligation, but we will work with the sector closely to develop a practical and cost-effective system that rewards good environmental practice. The Government will work with the sector on these and other issues, and the issue of a phase-out of free allocations by 2025 is still on the table for discussion. The bill we are introducing today has review provisions on this that will ensure we consider developments with our major trading partners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThis issue of climate change, and the policies that this and other Governments will follow to reduce emissions, is one of the most complex and vital issues that we have ever faced in this Parliament, and probably one of the most complex and vital in terms of the planet\u2014all of us are in this together. We now have a comprehensive package of measures to rebuild capacity in order to address New Zealand\u2019s land-management challenges. New Zealanders expect our primary industries to play their part. Our markets expect us to play our part. We have to get started with a vision of a sustainable and carbon-neutral New Zealand. This Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill gives us a historic place to start, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220bd27121d32542f6816571eadc1a65b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bd27121d32542f6816571eadc1a65b2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow the comments made by my colleague the Hon Nick Smith in response to the Minister\u2019s speech earlier this afternoon, because he very clearly articulated National\u2019s position and our concerns. We are committed to going through the select committee process in order to ensure that New Zealand gets a very good climate change and emissions trading regime. It was disappointing, therefore, hear the second speaker for the Government sound, again, a little petty about how people get themselves to any particular position. I would be quite within my rights to say that the Government is only now, after 8 years, getting to where National was back in 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe tragedy is that we have seen an extraordinary deforestation of this country over the past few years. The very Minister who is criticising the position taken by us\u2014which is in favour of this bill, I might add\u2014is the person who has presided over the felling of some 15 million trees in the last 2 years, and who this year, in 2007, has presided over some 30,000 hectares of New Zealand forests being cut down and not replaced. That has to be a concern to anybody who looks at New Zealand\u2019s emissions profile. I agree with him that we have to do something because of the reliance we have on the world\u2019s demand for agricultural products from our country. If we do not have a tidy carbon footprint, then we are likely to see a degree of stress, probably significant stress, in the markets we need to access in order to sustain our lifestyle in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of my other responsibilities is in the area of energy, and I want to make a couple of comments about the way that this bill is supposed to fit in with the Government\u2019s Energy Strategy. The Energy Strategy was produced after a long gestation, and I think it was somewhat of a disappointing document, inasmuch as it talks about a whole lot of concepts and has some very, very challenging goals in it, but does not talk about the practicalities and realities that will face this country in meeting the energy needs of its citizens and in trying to comply with a regime that demands we reduce the carbon dioxide emission profile from that sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe only thing I take comfort in is that the emissions trading system should see encouragement for some fuel substitution inside the energy market, particularly around fossil fuels, and it should see, we would hope, more renewable generation come into play. But as my colleague Dr Smith pointed out, every time that this Government has had an opportunity to support a sizable renewable energy project, it has found some reason to knock it over. That has to be the ultimate irony that works against the credentials it is trying to claim as a Government that is keen on looking after the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESome serious questions need to be answered in the select committee process, and not the least of those, when it comes to energy, concerns the definition of security of supply. If we look at the demand curve for electricity in this country, we see that the Government has massively underestimated what it is likely to be. Currently, if we read the Energy Strategy we learn that it says there will be about half a percent of demand growth every year. But we know that historically that rate has been well ahead of 2 percent. There is a suggestion there that energy conservation will make up the difference. Well, that is highly unlikely, in our view. As Dr Smith pointed out, the dependence that New Zealand now has on thermal generation means that the challenge to get back to a higher level of renewable generation is even greater than it was some short years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENot only do we want to know what the definition is for security of supply but we are fascinated to know what non-baseload thermal generation actually means. Right now, every bit of thermal generation capacity in this country is running, unless it is designated as reserve. Here we are heading into the warmer months of our climate, but we still have thermal generation running at peak loads. So what is non-baseload generation? At the moment every little bit we have is in fact baseload generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe would also like to know, in looking at the exemptions provisions of the bill set out in clause 60 right through to clause 62, what will trigger some exemptions being granted. Will it be a price signal? If there is a price trigger, can New Zealanders look forward to massively increased electricity prices? I for one do not accept that we need to have rising prices in an environment where we are reducing our greenhouse gas emissions from our electrical-energy sector. I think there are things we can do. One of the aspects of the energy portfolio is the scarcity of electricity. If it was not in scarce supply, we would not be seeing some of the dramatic price rises that we have seen over the past few years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo there is a real challenge here to have a better regime for renewable energy to be fed into the grid and to be developed, and for some sensible legislation around the role that thermal generation will play in supporting that. People will be aware, I hope, that Contact Energy has a $1 billion project for the development of a very, very large wind farm on the west coast of the North Island, just below Auckland. The company has made it very clear that it will have to back up that big wind farm with a smaller amount of thermal capacity. That brings us back round in a circle, and causes us to ask what security of supply is, as a definition, and what non-baseload generation is, as a definition. We want to know those two things. We also want to know whether a price signal will trigger the exemption process, or whether it will just be a matter of whoever is the Minister of the day making up his or her mind about what that means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAnother interesting aspect of this bill is the fact that we see nothing in it that talks about how New Zealand might better develop carbon stores. We heard Minister Anderton talking about various projects around the place, but as we have said, some of the biggest carbon stores in this country have been completely knocked over and taken out in the last couple of years. There is no suggestion from the Government in this bill that we are to look at how we might measure the improved carbon store in the country\u2019s pastures or how we might encourage the agricultural sector to get some benefit from improved soils\u2014making the effort to improve carbon sequestration, effectively, in the improved soils. Also, there is no suggestion that active work will be done by the Government of the day, whichever Government it may be, to ensure that we have soil stabilisation. Much of Mr Anderton\u2019s speech made mention of it, but, sadly, none of what he was talking about is reflected in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOur commitment is to travel with this bill into the select committee, supporting it, and then we will pick up on what the Hon Trevor Mallard said today. He said that the Government wants to consult widely and that it wants to work closely with all of those who have an interest in New Zealand\u2019s future, particularly with regard to climate change, because there is no doubt that we cannot separate what we do to mitigate against climate change and what we do to reduce our carbon dioxide emissions profile, from what our future economic prospects will be. We accept that the Minister is saying in good faith today that he wants to work with us, and we make that commitment as we support this bill going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00225d2a21505b19492eb5a02ab07e72f676\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d2a21505b19492eb5a02ab07e72f676\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill going to a select committee. New Zealand First looks forward to the debate on this bill, because, like most caucuses, we have people who are slowly coming to the realisation that climate change is a problem. We have people who agree and people who disagree, and we have had many debates in our caucus over this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI will mention that Peter Brown has problems with Part 2\u2014he asked me to mention it\u2014and he will be watching over my shoulder as we go through the process, to ensure that we do not get too silly on those aspects. I welcome that, because I think every caucus in Parliament\u2014perhaps not the Greens\u2019 caucus\u2014has struggled with this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe are certainly looking forward to the debate. We will not beat the Government or anybody else over the head about the 5 years that National says have been lost. I am sure that the Greens feel that we have all been latecomers to the party, as it were. But I think those 5 years have been a period when the opinion of the public of New Zealand has moved, and the polls we are seeing now reflect that climate change is of concern to in excess of 70 percent of the population. I think that now is about the right time for us to be debating a bill such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First was not amongst the first in this race, but we certainly will be approaching this bill with an open mind, and we are intent on getting things done. It is absolutely true that the debate over the whys and the wherefores has moved on. I think that debate was important, but now we need to approach what we actually will do about it. When I see\u2014what do they call them\u2014Green Cabs running around Wellington\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cca89520c374b8caf2c91360a8b0514\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And the Green Parrot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e6716397061466791d7555a6b17b8e6\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Green Parrot\u2014I see that the realities of life are moving into the commercial world. People are seeing that they can have a little competitive advantage. I and, I am sure, the National Party and others welcome that sort of thing, and that is the sort of positive debate we are seeing come out of this discussion. We will see many more such positive things. If slings and arrows are cast around, we will just have to accept that, but at least now we in this Parliament are all moving in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe, as a population, have had debates with foresters and we have had talks about rights. We in New Zealand First voted against the carbon tax. Now we have come to an emissions trading regime. Others know far more about it than perhaps we in New Zealand do\u2014people in Europe, for instance\u2014but it is still a relatively new science. The trading regime is still relatively new, and I think we have a long way to go before we perfect it. There are a lot of arguments to be had before we agree amongst ourselves, but the debate has started. We in New Zealand First embrace it with open arms, and we will do everything in our power to progress it to the advantage\u2014but not to the cost\u2014of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00220433111d29354e09a043b9100a8e8aa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220433111d29354e09a043b9100a8e8aa8\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E As we debate the first reading of this Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill to establish an emissions trading scheme for New Zealand, our representatives are in Bali at the annual meeting of the parties to the Kyoto Protocol, discussing the nature of an agreement to follow the current protocol from 2013. The science has crystallised around the key number of 2 degrees of warming, beyond which there is little chance of arresting a process of climate change that will continue to accelerate. There is a strong and urgent international call for countries to agree that keeping warming below an average of 2 degrees must be the goal of everything we do. New Zealand has not yet signed up to that goal. The best scientific advice is that to meet that goal we need to reduce emissions by between 25 and 40 percent by 2040. Europe has agreed to that. Australia, under its new leadership, has just agreed to that. New Zealand has not yet signed up to that, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe time for debate about whether human-induced warming is occurring is over. A few sceptics remain, but their arguments have been rebutted repeatedly by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Sceptics claim that changes in solar activity are causing the warming\u2014sunspots. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has systematically investigated and debunked that idea. Sceptics say that warming has stopped and that the world has cooled since 1998, but that is an example of how statistics can be used to justify a lie. The year 1998 was a standout year. It was much warmer than any previous year, and the years since have not been so warm, but they have still all been warmer than the years before 1998. If we remove that one anomalous year, then the warming trend continues smoothly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ESo there has been enough talk; it is time to take action. If we had taken action when the Kyoto Protocol was first negotiated in 1997, on the basis of some pretty certain science, then our task today would have been much easier. But like most of the world, we wasted those 10 years, saying \u201CAfter you.\u201D, and \u201CNo, no, after you.\u201D, while the world burned. Although New Zealand\u2019s emissions are small on a per capita basis, they are 4\u00BD times worse than China\u2019s, despite our renewable hydro resources and despite all the coal we are selling to China that it burns and takes responsibility for. Our extraordinarily high emissions per person are a serious trade risk if we do not reduce them substantially by the time our trading partners demand clean trade. Compared with Europe our cars average fuel use of 11 litres per hundred kilometres, while theirs use 7 litres, and our car ownership is the highest in the world. Our homes are poorly insulated, our industry has bad-quality electric motors and compressed air systems that leak, and we have very little public transport. And that relates only to the half of our emissions that do not come from farming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAddressing climate change has to use all the mechanisms at our disposal: public information, education, skills training, demonstration, benchmarking, regulation, and pricing. This bill is about pricing. It is designed to make fossil fuels and other causes of climate change relatively more expensive, and renewable energy, energy efficiency, and alternative farming technologies relatively cheaper. It is designed to change behaviour and that is how we must measure its success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ESince 1993, the Green Party has been advocating a carbon charge, with corresponding reductions on the bottom band of income tax. So we welcomed the Labour Government\u2019s 2002 policy that among other things promoted a carbon charge. But because the Government did not say what it would do with the money, it lost the political battle and, frightened of even more tractors on the steps of Parliament, it abandoned the charge in 2005. That was 4 years wasted. We now have a second-best system of an emissions trading scheme, and economists and a number of business people have recently come out in support of the view that it is a second-best system. Too late, those who now regret their opposition to the very much simpler and fairer carbon charge, with lower compliance and administration costs and real revenue to recycle, must accept their role in killing the better scheme and accept the second-best. It is here, and we have to make it work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThat is why the Greens will support the bill\u2019s first reading, but we will work very hard to improve it at the select committee. The first question is \u201CWill this complex system reduce New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse emissions?\u201D The answer is\u2014on its own, not very much. There is no requirement for any of the emissions reductions to be made in New Zealand. The intention here seems to be to purchase cheap Clean Development Mechanism credits from developing countries that have no caps on their emissions but that need funding from developed countries to improve their energy efficiency, build renewable energy, and expand their forests. So far, so good\u2014that is how Kyoto works\u2014except that there is now a lot of published evidence that many of those Clean Development Mechanism credits are poorly verified and are, in fact, fraudulent. We need to do a lot more at home rather than rely on those trades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Government estimates emissions trading will reduce transport emissions by 0.3 percent; the statistic disappears into the margin of error in any calculation. By comparison, setting fuel efficiency standards for vehicles entering the country, as now agreed to under the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Strategy, will save 25 percent of the fuel that those cars use. This system is claimed to be a world first that includes all sectors and all gases. In fact, it does neither. Half of our emissions are not covered at all until after the first Kyoto commitment period is over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAgriculture, the major emitter of methane and nitrous oxide, is totally exempt until 2013. Dairying must be the most profitable sector of the New Zealand economy at present, as well as one of its dirtiest. It is the fastest growing source of methane and nitrous oxide emissions. It can well afford to pay for them, but it has been given a taxpayer subsidy for 5 more years, during which time it will grow, converting more and more forest area to dairying, and being aided and abetted by the Government\u2019s own company, Landcorp, that actually does the conversions. It is not as if there is nothing farming can do. Nitrification inhibitors are now available to significantly cut nitrous oxide emissions, but where is the incentive to use them? This huge taxpayer subsidy of well over $1 billion is founded on an agreement in 2003 that the industry has not kept, despite what Mr Anderton just said about research funding. The industry has done nothing to voluntarily reduce its emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAlso exempt, but in this case forever, is the methane emitted from underground coal mines. New Zealand is accountable for it under Kyoto but, once again, in a substantial subsidy\u2014this time to the coal industry\u2014the taxpayer will pay for coal seam methane. Unlike a carbon charge, the emissions trading scheme produces no revenue for the Government to recycle in order to help the most disadvantaged become more energy efficient so they can cope better with the higher prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is quite possible to have higher fuel and power prices but lower bills. If a person\u2019s home is insulated and that person has better public transport and a more efficient car, then that person needs less energy. But any money provided for that\u2014and there should be some\u2014will again have to come from the taxpayer, because what little revenue the scheme does provide is all going to subsidise farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ESome weeks ago I warned that the Green Party is not of a mind to support legislation that leaves all the most critical decisions to regulation, over which Parliament has no scrutiny, and that is what this bill does. It is critical for the environmental integrity of the scheme that we do not allow Russian hot air\u2014units resulting from the collapse of their industry\u2014into our registry. But that decision is left to an Order in Council decision under new section 30G, as is any decision to link with other trading schemes overseas. Also without parliamentary scrutiny, the Minister has wide powers of exemption, may issue new New Zealand units and auction them, and must make allocation plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe hardest decisions of all\u2014and I have been warning of these since the mid-1990s\u2014are the decisions around the allocation of free credits to protect firms that are trade-exposed. The timing in this bill allows the Government to be comfortingly vague until after the election about who will qualify for free units, how many, and over what part of their emissions. The crunch decisions will be announced after the election in the form of allocation plans. We considered very carefully whether we could support such a delegation of powers by Parliament. The mitigating factors are that clear criteria are set in the bill and there will be a process of public submissions. We believe that that has taken care of enough of our concerns, and that it will be workable. However, we will work very hard, with many others who want a system with environmental integrity, to have agriculture enter earlier, to have coal seam methane captured, to exclude Russian assigned amount units based on hot air, and to persuade the Government to sign up to the internationally recognised critical goal of no more than two degrees warming and to a very substantial emissions reduction target within New Zealand in the post-2012 period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00226f5de0d1d91c45b898dd9ad9f029593d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f5de0d1d91c45b898dd9ad9f029593d\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare. As I was thinking about what to say on this bill, a couple of emails came in. The first was from Lowndes Associates proudly announcing that it is the first law firm to get carbon neutral certification in Aotearoa\u2014although given the amount of methane coming off the bull droppings that are a natural part of law firms, one would have to assess that claim through a healthy whiff of incense. To its credit, though, Lowndes Associates also has an army of legal experts to help its clients understand the Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme and the emerging carbon trading market\u2014and that suggests at exactly what level this whole thing is being pitched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe second email came from the Indigenous Environmental Network at the United Nations climate talks in Bali, urging Governments to reject the World Bank initiative to include forests in carbon markets. The Forest Carbon Partnership Facility was set to be launched as a key project to reduce emissions through deforestation in developing countries, but the Indigenous Environmental Network said that the scheme would not make any difference because all that it would do is let industrialised nations and companies buy their way out of emissions reductions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen law firms, international indigenous groups, and the World Bank all get caught up in something as big as climate change, we know that it is a big deal, so we have to ask how come this Government is introducing something as important as this bill under urgency. We simply do not get robust and intelligent debate on a bill that is squeezed into the middle of 19 other bills being rammed through the House just before Christmas. What we get is limited discussion from MPs thinking about something else, and no real depth of understanding of the costs and benefits of an emissions trading scheme to support global efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions\u2014a lot of which I am getting from other members in this House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBut there are a couple of concepts I would like to present as the M\u0101ori Party contribution to this debate, if I could. The first is our responsibility as tangata whenua to care for all those who live in this land, and their descendants, in line with our kaupapa of rangatiratanga, manaakitanga, and wh\u0101naungatanga, and the obligations we have of care and preservation. This emissions trading scheme has a similar philosophy of recognising and honouring obligations in the industries of forestry, mining, steelworks, and farming, through the verification and surrender of emission units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe second is the concept of kaitiakitanga and our responsibility to care for our world through the reduction of those activities that would harm and, indeed, destroy that world. In the interests of life itself, let alone social, economic, and environmental sustainability, we have a responsibility to reduce our carbon output. M\u0101ori have a role to play in the reduction of greenhouse emissions, and we do not resile from that responsibility, but M\u0101ori also have the right to manage what little assets they may have for the betterment of their people. We realise that in order to manage both roles effectively we must\u2014and we do\u2014appreciate that our total well-being, our health, our economy, and our sustenance are dependent on the well-being and health of our world, just as all indigenous peoples across the globe understand their unique role of caring for and conserving mother Earth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBut is this emissions trading scheme really the answer to all our climate change problems, or is it just creating another property rights regime to let the world\u2019s biggest polluters continue along their merry, filthy way? Charging people for greenhouse gas emissions was supposed to encourage businesses to come up with alternatives to fossil fuels, but all it is doing is giving them an excuse to continue. Why bother with the expensive, long-term structural changes if we can meet our targets by simply buying pollution rights from operations that can reduce their carbon cheaply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETo understand how the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill will affect M\u0101ori we looked at what it would mean for Crown forestry. In a report called M\u0101ori Impacts From Emissions Trading Scheme we get a clear understanding of the responsibility M\u0101ori owners of Crown forest licence lands have: \u201CIn determining what constitutes a fair, equitable and proportionate burden, Maori are assumed to be concerned with their level of economic development relative to non-Maori (as a consequence of past Crown actions or otherwise) as well as their relative contribution to New Zealand\u2019s green house gas emissions.\u201D There are no simple solutions to this problem, particularly with so many factors at play. To meet the challenges posed by greenhouse gas emissions we need to be creative and innovative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFurthermore, there is the question of whether the 55 million carbon credits due to be allocated to pre-1990 forests under the proposed Act for Crown forestry lands should be allocated as part of Treaty settlements, and here is where it all gets kinda tricky. Naturally, Government officials say the claimants should have to buy their carbon credits out of their settlement moneys, whereas M\u0101ori involved with Crown forestry rental lands quite rightly say that those carbon credits should be treated like accumulated rental separate from their settlements. The M\u0101ori Party supports the advice from the Climate Change Iwi Leadership Group and the M\u0101ori reference group that carbon credits should be allocated on the same basis as accumulated rentals held by the Crown Forestry Rental Trust. In other words, once one has acquired Crown forestry land, one gets carbon credits of equivalent monetary value over and above one\u2019s settlement. We do not see the sense in making claimants buy these carbon credits from their settlement. In fact, we believe that to make them do so would constitute a further breach of the Treaty of Waitangi. Claimants are not the reason these lands are not in M\u0101ori ownership, and M\u0101ori should not be punished for that while still being denied the same opportunities available to other New Zealand owners of pre-1990 exotic forest lands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe also note the concerns of the New Zealand Council for Infrastructure Development that this legislation might place a 10-year ban on thermal energy. We have a particular interest in this, given the contribution the Tuar\u014Dpaki Trust is making to geothermal power through M\u014Dkai I. The Tuar\u014Dpaki Trust, which comprises hap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa and Ng\u0101ti Raukawa, is an ahu whenua trust that is fast advancing progress in efficient thermal generation, and we will be extremely interested to hear from its chairperson, T\u016Bmanako Weret\u0101, about the implications of this bill for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, there are some huge issues in this bill; issues that will linger long after this session of urgency has been lifted. We welcome the opportunity for iwi to reflect on the issues that emerged at the national climate change hui in October, and the national M\u0101ori forestry hui held just last month. We recommend in the strongest manner that all M\u0101ori interested in this debate make sure they get along to the next national hui on this climate change bill, which will be held at 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 December, at the Brentwood Hotel in Wellington. We cannot just leave this to chance. We must manage both the opportunity and the risk that presents itself with this bill. So the M\u0101ori Party will support its first reading, to enable those debates to be held. Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00226176da958b904fb0b84e386376e08579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226176da958b904fb0b84e386376e08579\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future): \u003C/span\u003EIn 1989 I had the privilege of leading the New Zealand Government delegation to the first Conference on Atmospheric Pollution and Climate Change, in a little village called Nordvijk just outside The Hague in the Netherlands. The events of that meeting, which was attended by representatives of 160 countries, became somewhat overshadowed when on day 2 of the conference the Berlin Wall fell and most of the Eastern European delegates who had been there suddenly shot home very quickly. I recall at breakfast on the day of that event dining with the East German Environment Minister, who assured me that there would have to be one or two changes back home, but nothing serious was going to happen. By lunchtime, he was gone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5659bf465cb4dddb576d1c8bd8699eb\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: At least he\u2019d finished his breakfast!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221701f592f88a42b7b587c1dc327d4d8d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: It was a good breakfast, too. That meeting set the pathway for what became the Rio Earth Summit in 1992, which, in turn, set the groundwork for the Kyoto meeting that led to the Kyoto Protocol, and, now, the Bali meeting, which is looking at the post-Kyoto environment. It is interesting to track the change in thinking that has occurred over those two decades. Back in 1989, the focus was much more on atmospheric pollution, the concern about deforestation, the fact that there were issues relating to international development and debt, particularly amongst Third World nations, and there was this consequential thing in the background about how this might be doing something to promote greenhouse gases, which might be damaging to our environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOver the subsequent two decades the emphasis has shifted 180 degrees. We are now totally preoccupied, and quite properly so, with climate change and the ways in which that can be mitigated. These other matters that were at the forefront of the agenda at that first round of discussion are now seen as more of the symptoms of the problem, rather than the problems themselves to be resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOver those two decades a number of issues have arisen as ways in which we should address those issues. The bluntest instrument of all, in my view, was the notion of a universal carbon tax. I think it is totally appropriate that having looked at this matter the New Zealand Government abandoned it in 2005, because it was too blunt an instrument. I do not accept the viewpoint put forward by an earlier speaker that moving to an emissions trading regime is a second-best option. I have long felt that that is actually the better option, where we put a price on a product, enable people to trade in the commodity, and establish the type of regime that is, in fact, envisaged in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EHaving said that, it is one thing to take a view in theory about what is desirable; it is quite another thing to design a workable system in practice. While we will support the introduction of this bill, we give notice that the detail that needs to be resolved will require a great deal of work by the select committee before we could feel confident\u2014and I am sure others would have a similar view\u2014that the regime we are putting in place is a sustainable and workable one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFor example, let me turn to the provisions under Part 1 relating to the point at which various sectors will enter the regime. On the face of it, it seems logical to have a staged approach, presumably based around the complexity of resolving industry or sector-specific issues. I suppose one could say, given the work that has already been done in some quarters, that it is logical that forestry should be the first entrant, liquid fossil fuels should follow, stationary energy, industrial processes, agriculture, waste, and so on. But it is actually not as simple as that, because while forestry might, for example, appear to be the obvious candidate, it does not necessarily follow that all of the issues relating to forestry are resolved at this point, or are in a state where they are likely to be resolved to enable, without significant work being done, the entry of the forestry regime in part by 2008\u2014that will not happen\u2014but certainly by 31 December 2009. There are issues relating to some of the technical details, and I had advice only this afternoon about more problems that will need to be addressed in that regime. The same applies to the various other sector areas set out in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo we support the bill going to a select committee. We support it being carefully considered and these matters being resolved to the greatest extent possible. But I want to enter a couple of caveats. There will be natural tendency to have this bill passed before the election, because the Government, and, I suspect, parties supporting it, will want to be able to go out and say: \u201CWe have done something. Look at this, it has been passed into law. New Zealand has a strategy.\u201D If that can be achieved, well and good, and the cards will fall where they will. But this is an issue\u2014and I think Dr Smith made this point in his remarks earlier on\u2014that is bigger than any particular political party, this Parliament, or any particular Parliament. I would far rather that we took a little longer and got it right, rather than rush to a glory that might be very short-lived because we are amending it at our leisure over the subsequent years. That is the first point I have some concern about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second point is that, as we work our way through this, it is going to be critical to get the maximum buy-in from the largest number of people possible. As I hear all the discussion about this group being involved, that these meetings are being held, that these people are in favour, and so on, there is one large group of New Zealanders who are completely left out of the process to date, but who are in fact going to be critical to its ultimate achievement in so many different ways. I refer to New Zealand households. We are going to be talking, through the various stages of sectors joining this regime, about all sorts of impacts on households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EReference has been made to some form of compensatory adjustment being made available to them so that they are not adversely financially affected by the provisions of this bill. That is all fine in theory, but the real test will be the extent to which they feel, as the regime unfolds, they are actually part of what is happening. Because if they feel in any way disconnected or imposed upon, or unfairly treated, or unequally treated, then I strongly predict that there will be an adverse political reaction that will see the Government of the day, whichever it might be, forced to make compromises and changes that will challenge the fundamental integrity of what we are trying to do. I strongly urge that the Government\u2014in the first instance\u2014the select committee, and all those involved with furthering the development of this process take some time over the next few months to make sure that we are not just putting in place a high-level strategy with a language all of its own that most New Zealanders do not understand, but that we start to talk about it at a level that people can relate to and can start to see what the impact on them will be, what the consequences will be, and where those compensations, if they are to be made, might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOtherwise, we will be setting this up to fail. We have gone down the path previously of saying that we do not want a carbon tax. I think that is absolutely right, because it is a blunt instrument, unevenly imposed, etc. There is an overwhelming public view that we have to do something. The danger here is that if we put in place a regime that is half-baked, ill-considered, and does not have public buy-in, it too will go the way of a carbon tax, and as other regimes and other agreements enter into it, New Zealand will still be left in the position of trying to figure out what its response is. I do not think we can afford to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002248e98ba8e5b84abcb620840a07061a51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248e98ba8e5b84abcb620840a07061a51\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I know that Mr Harawira worries about the quality of the speeches given under urgency, but I say that the speeches on this bill have been excellent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the ACT party I feel as though I need to offer an explanation, because I believe that we will be the only party voting against this bill. Let me explain. I first became aware of the possibility of anthropogenic effects on the world\u2019s climate, I believe, in 1972. There was some debate then about whether the earth could be possibly warming or cooling, and certainly there was a possibility of an effect of industrialisation and its impact on world climate. Subsequently, the consensus emerged in the late 1970s, interestingly, that the earth was cooling as a consequence of human actions. Indeed, because of my interest in such matters I went on to do a master\u2019s degree in ecology and environmental science, and indeed lectured in environmental science for many years, and did a master\u2019s degree also in resource economics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOver that time a lot of scares came along and obliterated the concern people had about the possibility of human impact on world climate. These scares have come and, thankfully, gone. I am mindful of Mr Peter Dunne when he was speaking, and alarming the House about Y2K. The scare now of course is global warming, or in fact as it has now been called, climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt is a worry, of course, because we are having such a large impact on the earth, and it is a worry in a host of complex ways. New Zealand is a trading nation, and the perception of New Zealand and our markets is crucial. So whatever we might think of the science, we have to be good environmental citizens. I use the word \u201Cgood\u201D not in an objective, scientific way, but in a way to justify ourselves to the very peoples we want to be selling our products to in order to maintain our access, and, more particularly, to win a preference for New Zealand goods and services. It is good that New Zealand maintains and extends its green image, and I fully support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me just run through why we are opposed to this bill. I think essentially it is that we do not want to be running ahead of the rest of the world. If we are going to constrain carbon emissions in New Zealand, it is going to be a huge cost on New Zealand. I find it interesting that not even a rudimentary cost-benefit analysis has been done on the scheme. I notice with some interest that the National Party leader, John Key, said \u201COh, by 2050 we\u2019re going to reduce what emissions were in 1990 by 50 percent.\u201D, which is a huge stretch. It would constrain enormously New Zealand\u2019s capacity to produce, and divert resources out of current industries from which we make a great deal of money into those that are not even on the horizon. It is hard to imagine how New Zealand could possibly meet that goal. Even holding the level of emissions has proved impossible for this Government. We can set these worthy goals without thinking about the costs, but if we are going to hold down carbon emissions it will be a huge cost on the economy, and indeed a huge disruption to the economy. So members should make no bones about it; this is a big issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe second point I will make is that although there is some debate about the science, I think a good working place for politicians to start is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. We can all point to that and say that, yes, this is where\u2014I guess I am saying\u2014there is scientific consensus, but we all know that science is not run by consensus; it is run by facts. Yet as politicians we have to come up with a response, and that is a good place to start. I should point out that that is a political response. The science does not tell us what we should do. At the end of the day it is going to be politicians, not scientists, who have to decide what the response is to any environmental scare or threat. As limited as we are in many people\u2019s imaginations, it is hard to think of any other route whereby there can be a response, other than a political one, to the questions and issues of science and, in particular, of the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhen we look at it, certainly the alarm statistics we were having some years ago have somewhat diminished, so it is less scary than it was. We are talking a long time frame\u2014a hundred years, a temperature rise of 2 or 3 degrees over a hundred years. But a lot can happen in a day, a lot can happen in a week, a lot happens in a year, and a heck of a lot will happen in a hundred years. For example, the Western World will probably be three times richer per capita. Poorly developed countries will be eight times richer per capita, hopefully, if they pursue good policies. So the world will be a richer place, it will be a different place, and it will be a technologically advanced place compared with what it is now. So the sorts of things that we are worried about\u2014about where we are going\u2014are quite something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet us think about temperature. There are a lot of cold countries in the world. Finland is cold, and it is a very successful economy. I guess its average temperature must be zero degrees or 5 degrees. If we look at Singapore, its average temperature must be jolly hot, and the temperature range between Singapore and Finland is far, far higher than any change we are talking about for the world, even in the worst case scenario from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That is the point that I would like to make in this speech. The amazing thing about human beings and modern society is our ability to adapt to our environment and, indeed, our ability to change our environment, which is what we are debating here. All this alarm that we have that we must stop climate change, and that we must stop carbon emissions, escapes the point that we can adapt to changes. We can adapt to somewhat higher water levels; of course we can. We have adapted to far worse. We can certainly adapt to different temperature regimes. Human beings demonstrate that. We can succeed in cold environments and warm environments. Yet the suggestion is that somehow some change in temperature would be a calamity. Actually, the facts do not bear that out. So my view on the science is that we should just be a bit cautious and a bit sceptical, particularly in our response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI know that Jeanette Fitzsimons said that this bill will have an almost negligible effect on New Zealand\u2019s carbon dioxide emissions. That is absolutely true. This bill is a political thing so that Parliament, the Government, and the political parties can say they are doing something. But the actual impact is quite small. It goes nowhere to meeting the commitments that Labour and National have signed up to; all it does is set up a soft regime. That is another point about this environmental trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is my worry about it. I was involved on the side, as an academic, in setting up the quota scheme for the fisheries, so I know something about setting up market schemes. I heard Dr Nick Smith say that we need to incentivise in pricing, and I think that that is true. But what we are doing here, I think, is setting up a scheme that will be a potentially corrupt scam worldwide, because what is being traded is an odd thing\u2014the ability to emit carbon dioxide, and eventually other greenhouse gases, I guess. Countries that are crooked will be involved, and companies that are crooked will be involved, and they will be trading in these emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere will also be people sitting on property rights that are made valuable simply because of legislation such as this. They will defend those rights to the death, lobby politicians, and say: \u201CNo, you can\u2019t do that.\u201D We have seen that already in New Zealand with the forest owners. They said: \u201CWe thought we were planting these trees and that we\u2019d own these carbon credits.\u201D I think the potential for abuse and corruption on this is massive. I agree with Jeanette Fitzsimons that this is a very second-best solution. We can achieve Nick Smith\u2019s goal of incentivising in pricing by a tax. The virtue of a tax is that it does not create a property right or therefore a political lobby group that will be arguing around that. In fact, a tax creates a lobby group that says: \u201CIs this a good thing that we should be doing\u2014paying this tax?\u201D But the lobby groups will be huge on this bill when it goes through the committees, and over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt is a great thing to be part of the ACT party. We are just two MPs, but we have two votes against this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00220f08584009794dcf8c0e8778704a506f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f08584009794dcf8c0e8778704a506f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to stand up and take a call in the first reading debate on the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill. With reference to the member Rodney Hide, who has just resumed his seat, I say with the greatest respect that, if anything, there has probably been too much caution and too much scepticism from politicians around the world on this issue. I do not think we could say that that has been lacking. I think that were we ever to rely on science to produce an absolute result on anything, we would be very disappointed, particularly when it comes to an issue as complex as climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis issue is not about deciding where we will spend our holidays next year because it will be 2 degrees warmer somewhere and 2 degrees colder somewhere else; it is actually about the very subtle but important changes that happen in ecosystems with very small increases or decreases in temperature, which have huge flow-on effects that impact on the rest of our economy. We have had issues in this country, such as the importation of honey from Australia, which have highlighted what could happen if new pests are introduced into New Zealand. If our bee populations were to suffer, that would have huge flow-on effects down to our agricultural sector. This House should take very, very seriously any indication that there may be a change in climate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EEven if we take the very sceptical view and say there is only a 1 percent chance that all the scientists in the world whose research has been quality peer-reviewed are right and we are on a pathway to massive destruction, we should take that seriously, because by the time we are certain that climate change and its devastating consequences are a reality, it will be too late to do anything about it. A year ago the Government released five energy and climate change discussion documents and engaged in a significant consultation process. The 3,000 submissions that were received showed the depth of feeling out there in the New Zealand community, and those submissions have been worked through over the last year. Certainly, we know that around the world the depth of feeling about climate change is high. I take on board what the Hon Peter Dunne said, but, of course, this bill is only one tool in the arsenal to combat climate change. Other policies and other initiatives are also going on. It is not the only one, although it is obviously an incredibly important one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOther members have gone through at length what the bill does, but it is important to highlight the need for New Zealand to play its part. We are second only to Australia in the amount of greenhouse gas we generate for every dollar of economic activity. That means that New Zealand, as one of the OECD\u2019s biggest per capita polluters, needs to stand up and say we are prepared to take seriously our role in climate change reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAgain, in contrast to what Mr Hide was saying earlier, there are actually many precedents in the world already for emissions trading schemes. New Zealand is certainly not \u201Cwell ahead\u201D of the pack when it comes to emissions trading schemes. There are active trading schemes in a variety of pollutants, not just greenhouse gases, around the world, and the largest is the European Union Emission Trading Scheme, which I am sure the select committee will take a great interest in. Also, various states in the United States have their own schemes, including markets to reduce acid rain, reduce nitrous oxide, and other schemes like that. I think it will be very important for the select committee to look at the experiences of the European Union, even though New Zealand has a very different greenhouse gas emissions profile, and we are bringing in a different trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI note for members\u2019 benefit that, since the beginning of 2005, 12,000 energy-intensive plants in the European Union have been able to buy and sell permits that allow them to emit carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. The companies that exceed that individual limit are able to buy unused permits. This scheme goes on until the end of 2007, when the second period will start. Although organisations such as the UN and the World Bank have praised the European Union Emission Trading Scheme and highlighted it as a scheme that could form the basis of a global system, in practice there have been a few bumps that I think we need to look at during the select committee process. For example, the accusation has been made that more permits to pollute have been granted than were needed. Certainly, that is something we should look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOf interest is the fact that the European Union now wants to bring the aviation sector into its emissions trading scheme. It produces about 3 percent of the European Union\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions, but it has had an 87 percent increase in carbon dioxide emissions since 1990. Following the emergence of cheap air travel in the European Union, with \u00A35 fares, that is hardly surprising. According to the European Commission, someone taking a return flight from London to New York will generate the same amount of carbon dioxide as an average person heating his or her home for a year. That tells us how significant this issue is for the European Union. This proposal has been strongly opposed, not surprisingly, by the International Air Transport Association, and airlines outside the European Union, particularly those in the United States, have said they will oppose the proposal, and plan legal challenges. The US has even warned that it could spark a trade dispute. I think these are issues that the select committee needs to look at when considering our emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EA number of suggestions and proposals were considered during the consultation period, and it is important to look at why an emissions trading scheme was pursued. From those submissions, it was clear that there was broad\u2014although, it must be said, not unanimous\u2014support to introduce an emissions trading scheme. There was strong consensus that, to be fair to all sectors involved over time, it had to involve all gases and all sectors, and that is what this bill does. An emissions trading scheme is also the most flexible and the lowest-cost option, and it enables firms and industries across all sectors to pursue emission reductions, and that is something we want to incentivise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAlso, the science tells us that we need to control the quantity of our emissions. We can talk for a long time about where those emissions should come from and which industries can do better, but, of course, over time the important factor is an overall reduction in the total amount of emissions. If we look at New Zealand\u2019s current net position, we see that our emissions are set to continue to rise if we do not introduce measures now to stop that. This bill is an important part of that. The good news for New Zealand is that we can, in a cost-effective way, reduce our emissions substantially through both a range of recently announced policies and this emissions trading legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOf the sectors that will be brought in, a lot will be said about the agricultural sector. There has been a large amount of discussion about the time frame for bringing in the agricultural sector. Unlike most developed countries, almost half our emissions come from the agricultural sector. We are unique in the world in that respect. It is our single biggest source of greenhouse gases. One-third is from nitrous oxide, and approximately two-thirds is from carbon dioxide\u2014a by-product of partial digestion in ruminant animals. A fair and equitable emissions trading scheme, I think we all agree, must over time include agriculture as well as all the other big emitting sectors. Part of the reason is there is huge opportunity within our agricultural sector for low-cost greenhouse gas emission reductions. It would be a huge cost on the rest of the economy if we were to exclude them and not get the benefit from the potential that lies within that sector. It would also be unfair on all the other sectors and on the taxpayers, who would have to carry the burden of those emissions if this sector was not brought in to play its part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut we have acknowledged that its inclusion is complex, and therefore it will not happen till after the first commitment period, although, as already indicated, monitoring of this sector will commence well before then. Minister Parker has said that when the sector joins the scheme, the Government would prefer to impose direct obligations on processing companies rather than individual farmers, but many approaches will be investigated and all options will be looked at. Fortunately, I think our agricultural sector is known for being adaptable, and it is known for leading the world. We know we have a lot to lose if we open ourselves up to false barriers to our trade from markets that are prepared to say they will not deal with a country that does not have an emissions trading scheme. We are already world leaders, because we know that we produce 1 kilo of meat or 1 litre of milk far more efficiently than anyone else in the world does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI welcome Federated Farmers\u2019 response to this bill and their commitment to being part of the solution. The challenge has been firmly laid at their door, and the Government is coming to the party with an investment of $175 million over the next 5 years in a plan of action for land management and climate change, and in science and technology. Although work has been done on nitrogen inhibitors, methane reduction research is still in its relative infancy, and it holds huge potential. The benefits to New Zealand of that could be not only greenhouse gas reduction and the trade benefits that would come from that, but also the use of that technology around the world to bring in other countries, and to ensure that once again New Zealand is seen as a leader in assisting the entry of the rest of the world\u2019s agricultural sector into the Kyoto Protocol. That perhaps could also allay many of the concerns around the world about the implication for food supplies of the Kyoto Protocol. No other country is looking to bring agriculture in at this stage, although the European Union reform of the common agricultural policy has led to some reduction in greenhouse gases, and what New Zealand is doing here is being watched with interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have addressed many of the other issues in other speeches today, but I just want to say that the select committee will have a range of important options to look at. One that has been pointed out is minimising environmental leakage, which is going to be extremely important, and also making sure that as the methods of measuring greenhouse gases change over time, any scheme that we put in place here is able to adapt to that. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe99429349d4371ae4124e3c4d7e51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe99429349d4371ae4124e3c4d7e51f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As has been stated earlier by my colleagues Nick Smith and Gerry Brownlee, National supports the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill to the select committee, but we do so with caution. We will use that select committee process very, very carefully to analyse, or attempt to analyse, the effect that this legislation will have on New Zealand\u2019s economy. Under no circumstance can I accept legislation that will significantly impact on our New Zealand economy at a rate far greater than any similar economy in the world. That will not achieve anything for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on two or three comments that have been made by earlier speakers. Firstly, in relation to the contribution made by the ACT member Rodney Hide, I say to him that it is not an option to do nothing. New Zealand ratified the Kyoto Protocol in 2002. There was significant debate around that decision of Helen Clark to ratify at that time. I remember National arguing very strongly that we did not need to be ahead of our major trading partners. But that debate is a past debate. New Zealand has ratified Kyoto. We have significant international commitments to meet; therefore we have to get on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe current Government has an appalling history of rushing to ratify, and then spending 5 years to get to the current position. The Government had the \u201Cfart tax\u201D as its first proposal. Well, that cost the member who promoted it\u2014the Hon Jim Sutton\u2014his job. He is no longer in Parliament. Then Labour pronounced a carbon tax, and we have had a number of people talk about that today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4a9354280444c98837cae8f8b27fa0\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: That bit the dust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187efc0e762c478294e5fdf26639bbeb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That bit the dust, as Doug Woolerton said. So there is an urgency about this matter, and I say to Mr Hide that the option of doing nothing is not a runner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second comment I picked up was from the Minister who introduced the legislation, Trevor Mallard. He said that this is landmark legislation, and that is very, very true. This is the most complicated piece of legislation I have ever had to grapple with. A lot of tax legislation goes through here\u2014terribly complex stuff\u2014but because there is a benchmark preceding it, it is easier for me, as a member of Parliament, to get my head around it. This is ground-breaking legislation. As mentioned by a number of speakers, this is about an emissions trading scheme that is far wider than attempts made by any other country in the world. No other country in the world has attempted to put agriculture into an emissions trading scheme, and I will talk about that later. I am not arguing for 1 minute that agriculture be exempted; I am just saying that we must get this right for the future of our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe important point about this legislation, as it goes to the select committee, is that our emissions trading scheme will be one that will work. There are thousands of variations to an emissions trading scheme, but for one to work properly it must introduce behavioural and management changes to those who emit. If it does not work properly we are simply back to where Labour was and, in effect, we are putting a de facto tax on emitters. If it does not change behaviour then we are not actually achieving anything to address global warming. That is what I will watch in the select committee process\u2014that we truly have an emissions trading scheme that is about emitters and those in a credit position being able to negotiate between themselves, and, more important, that gives signals back to emitters that they need to do something responsible about reducing their emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I fear, as I understand the legislation introduced in regard to agriculture, is the proposal to signal the collection of any liability to agriculture at the point of the processors\u2014the meat companies, the Fonterras, and others. If that happens we are missing a very valuable opportunity to get that signal back to the farmer, who ultimately will pay the cost. For example, if I send lambs from my farm to the works and there is an associated cost levied by the Government on the freezing company, then I will cop the cost. But if I am a guy who wants to do something about it on my particular property\u2014as opposed to my neighbour who says \u201CI couldn\u2019t care less and I\u2019m not going to take any action at all.\u201D\u2014that is the sort of emissions trading scheme that has to get back, with the correct signals, to those who can change behaviour to do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe legislation will be examined very, very closely at the select committee. One of the questions I will ask is one I have already asked of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officials when they were before the Primary Production Committee a couple of weeks ago: \u201CWhat work have you done, Mr Murray Sherwin, as the Director-General of Agriculture as to the impacts of this proposed legislation on farmers?\u201D. His answer was, in my mind, close to irresponsible. He said to the select committee: \u201CWe have done no real work because the matter is too complex.\u201D Now this country is so reliant on agriculture that we cannot make decisions without knowing what the financial impact will be, and that is certainly an issue that I will be teasing out at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe third comment that was made in this House earlier today that I want to pick up on was from the current Minister of Forestry and Minister of Agriculture, Jim Anderton. He said something that is probably typical of Mr Anderton. It reflected his absolute ignorance, and I found it offensive. He suggested that anybody who questions this legislation is, in effect, a sceptic about climate change. I am totally fed up with people who call me a sceptic simply because I question the economics of this and the effect it will have on New Zealand agriculture. Mr Anderton is the Minister of Forestry who has overseen 15 million trees coming out and he is the person who has seen our forestry situation in New Zealand go to a net deforestation figure for the first time in 50 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe more alarming statement made by Mr Anderton was that agriculture had to pay its share of the burden because agricultural emissions have increased substantially since 1990. I say to Mr Anderton that he should go and do some research. If he bothered to contact the Parliamentary Library, it would tell him that agricultural emissions from 1990 until 2005 have gone up 15.2 percent\u2014effectively 1 percent a year. By comparison, energy industries emissions have gone up 53.7 percent and transport emissions have gone up 61.9 percent. So again I say to Mr Anderton\u2014who is meant to represent the farmers of this country\u2014that he should know the facts. The growth in emissions from 1990 until today has been in small part agriculture\u2014and significantly around dairy conversions\u2014but in no way should agriculture be hung out by that Minister as the industry that is to blame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMy final point is that I accept that the need to do something is urgent, but we cannot do anything that makes this economy suffer. If we get this wrong\u2014and do not get an emissions trading system that sends the correct signal to our New Zealand farming industry\u2014we will do two things. Firstly, at the end of each commitment period we will transfer a bundle of money to the Russians. That will not help global warming. Secondly, and more important, we will put New Zealand agriculture at a competitive disadvantage compared with other people who produce similar products in countries such as Australia or South America. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EParliament needs to realise that the New Zealand economy is based on primary production, and what we produce is not unique in its quantum\u2014it is unique in its quality; I will accept that\u2014and what we produce here can be produced elsewhere. At the end of the day, if we impose a huge cost on New Zealand farmers and no other country does, that means that our product suddenly becomes difficult to sell. Again, what have we achieved for global warming? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe one thing that Mr Anderton was right about when he made his contribution is that this does present opportunities for us. The initial reports from the likes of Lincoln University show that in a carbon efficiency sense New Zealand\u2019s farming systems are very, very efficient. The world needs to note that there is no point in making it difficult for New Zealand to carry on an efficient farming system, and then make it easier for the European producers, who are huge emitters themselves in an agricultural sense. There is no sense in transferring the wealth from this country to make us poorer, and to make the Russians wealthier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87890844bb741a9a1317937ecdbbd8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87890844bb741a9a1317937ecdbbd8a\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to follow the very thoughtful contribution by my colleague David Carter. I would go one step further than him and say that I think this is probably one of the rare occasions we have in this House to write policy almost on a blank page. Although that is not technically true, because there are some antecedents to this, it is about as true as one ever gets in the real world of politics to writing a policy on a blank page. It is a policy of\u2014and for once the words are justified\u2014profound importance. This will have very large impacts on the way New Zealand will look in 20 to 30 or more years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBehind all the uncertainties of the debates we have had on climate change over the last 10 to 15 years, I think the thing that motivates us in the National Party is a clear sense that in recent years the science has absolutely firmed up that human-induced, or anthropogenic, climate warming is becoming a greater and greater problem and that it is totally irresponsible to sit there and worry about the uncertainties and do nothing. I understand the uncertainties around the effects. For example, we have around 380 parts of carbon dioxide - equivalent gases per million in the atmosphere. According to the Stern report, this may reach a range of 450 to 550 parts, inducing perhaps 2 to 3 degrees of global warming. Others have an even more frightening prospect. We are never going to settle these issues, but we have to make a response now. The one thing I agreed with in Rodney Hide\u2019s analysis was that, yes, some major issues are still being debated out there but, as he said, politicians have to decide on a response. On that ground the National Party will support this emissions trading scheme bill going to a first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn relation to the uncertainties there is a metaphor I like to use that I have used in the past, and it is a quote from Arnold Schwarzenegger in his latest career move as Governor of California and one of the leading exponents in the United States of standing up to the plate on climate change. I thought he put it very simply and very neatly when he said: \u201CIf my son shows signs of sickness and I have nine physicians saying \u2018Take him to the hospital.\u2019, and I have one physician saying \u2018This is a naturally occurring phenomenon. Don\u2019t do anything. He\u2019ll get over it.\u2019, what do I do? I take my son to the hospital.\u201D It is a very simple political metaphor, and I think it is exactly the right prudential approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EMoving from that to the policy response is an awesomely complicated matter. There are two faces of this: the domestic and the international. The first point I want to make when I look at those two interconnected faces is that precisely because we are trying to get something that will be durable, we have to factor political sustainability into the equation, both domestically and internationally. That is why we put into the discussion paper on external strategies the following statement. We observed that there were three traditional strands to New Zealand foreign policy that we saw consensus emerging on, across particularly the two parties\u2014defence, foreign affairs, and trade\u2014but we saw a fourth strand emerging, which is climate change, and that is the area that we need to work on. We need to work on that because only if it can command at least bipartisan support in the context of New Zealand politics will we have a politically durable base. And it is only if it is based on political reality that the companies and individuals whose behaviour we expect to modify through an emissions trading scheme will have sufficient certainty that although there will still be fine-tuning of the scheme in the future, to be sure\u2014this will have to regarded as a work in progress\u2014the fundamental direction is settled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ETo me that is the real lesson of the carbon tax and the \u201Cfart tax\u201D. I am not trying to make a partisan point here; I am just trying to make a point about the importance of factoring political sustainability into the equation. If we start off with a view that we do not need to take account of political realities and commercial realities, as soon as pressure is imposed on those environmental policies, what happens? It is the collapse of those environmental policies. So, taking too extreme a view in terms of the balance between the environment and economic sustainability resulted, in those two cases, in the complete collapse of an environmental response. There is a deep lesson there for all of the people who will be involved in this debate. That is why, right at the start of this process, our leader, John Key, made it absolutely clear that we are not a one-issue party. We do want to sustain this country economically, just as we want to fulfil our environmental responsibilities, and we will be looking for balance. It is only in that way that we will get a politically sustainable solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI now want to pass to the international dimension of this issue and make some fairly general observations. Frankly, the international negotiation of this is the heart and soul of the matter. If we do not get an international response that builds on the first commitment period with a successor agreement or a set of interlocking complementary agreements, then we have literally nothing. Kyoto is a first response by the international community to global warming. I was much intrigued by Peter Dunne\u2019s interesting personal recollections of predecessor negotiations to the global warming convention. It is easy to criticise Kyoto, precisely because it is a first, and, I think, limited, response by the international community. In reality, all international economic diplomacy moves forward on the basis of incremental progress. People want revolutions. New Zealand farmers in the world trading system always wanted a revolution. That is not how it happens. If we look at the history of the international community\u2019s response to international trade imperatives, what we see is a successful policy of incrementalism\u2014starting off 50 years ago with a very limited set of agreements, building on the back of that, and always moving in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI suspect that when the history\u201430 or 40 years from now\u2014of the international community\u2019s response to anthropogenic-induced global warming is written, the history will be a very sad story of failure if we simply stop at Kyoto, with its limitations. It will be a success if the future historians on climate change politics can write: \u201CKyoto was a first, limited step, which led to more sustainable political agreements.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn respect of the future of the negotiation, let me make just a couple of points about the United States and the developing countries, because quite clearly this is where we need major buy-in. Of the two, personally I am much less concerned about the situation of the United States, and I say that for three interlocking reasons. First of all, in terms of the dimension of the problem, the United States is probably currently around equal to China in respect of its total greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, according to some estimates China may now be fractionally ahead. So the nature of the threat and the nature of the problem from the sum of all developing countries is a much, much larger problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESecondly, I think it is palpably clear that opinion in the United States is changing. My colleague Dr Nick Smith, our spokesperson on this issue, has referred to 23 individual states where there are climate change initiatives under way. So although there have been some problems at the federal level, to describe the United States as not moving in the right direction, is, I think, a gross mischaracterisation of the reality. Thirdly, we will be absolutely relying on the combination of international commitments and science breakthroughs if we are ever to seriously get on top of this problem. An enormous proportion of the world\u2019s scientific knowledge, scientific talent, and research development money resides in the United States. I am not so concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI am not expecting very much from Bali, and I would urge other people to be a little patient. The way I would see it panning out, in terms of my experience with international economic negotiations, is that Bali will be seen essentially as a holding pattern. The United States will define its position, essentially, for the post-Kyoto commitment period, starting in 2013, after the next presidential election. That will take place at the end of 2008. The President, whoever she or he is, will appoint her or his chief climate change negotiator, probably around May 2009. This will require a long period of consolidation in the United States. Members should not be surprised if it is not until 2010 that we see a United States response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn the meantime we will proceed down this track. We are committed to working with the Government. We think it is very important to get the detail right. Let us observe the point that Peter Dunne made\u2014that this is far too important to rush through. Let us try to get this as right as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000704\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022d56aaadb724b46aebe7c4dcca32b5eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d56aaadb724b46aebe7c4dcca32b5eb4\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister of Immigration)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: I move, That the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill be referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002269ca2c3090c847f5a0365476b71e7689\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269ca2c3090c847f5a0365476b71e7689\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister, in introducing the bill, indicated it would go to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Perhaps the junior Minister would like me to move it for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4c858e60664e038da0c36de34f3a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4c858e60664e038da0c36de34f3a28\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7137cf85607446dbe3fe55a7d739f4b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member move it again, please. He needs to state the words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002205e5f121f8e8418da001c9c3223212f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205e5f121f8e8418da001c9c3223212f2\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister of Immigration)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: I move, That the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b3b30be54b449a78ac1986b905c153f\u0022\u003EReal Estate Agents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002262ed3d80c7ed4ee5861b10b63fab4eee\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c009a967b44a4b709c4e8c2e0e7905a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c009a967b44a4b709c4e8c2e0e7905a8\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Real Estate Agents Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the Real Estate Agents Bill be considered by the Justice and Electoral Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis bill will provide long-overdue protection to people buying and selling their homes. It will support the vast majority of good, honest professionals working in the real estate industry who are unfairly tarred with the same brush as the last land shark who ripped someone off. Such people are a minority in the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279597559540241e3a02872eff607851c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, land sharks! What\u2019s a land shark?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d955a0d1891b4bd48b8c2df2967338ae\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The land sharks\u2014that is right\u2014who indulge in dubious business practices, have caused great financial hardship and anguish for consumers. That is indeed undeniable. The risks this minority pose to ordinary Kiwi consumers are considerable. The risks include mishandling of funds, poor contractual advice, misleading representations, conflicts of interest, misuse of information, and fraud. When things go wrong it is ordinary Kiwis and their families, as we know, who pay the price. The cost to victims who have been ripped off by careless or rogue agents can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EFor most New Zealanders their greatest asset is their home. Buying or selling a house is, for most people, one of the biggest financial transactions of their life. That is why this bill, which is about protecting consumers and good, honest real estate professionals, is so important. We are all aware of the succession of cases that have raised serious concerns in the community and in the media. Consumers have turned to the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand\u2019s complaints and disciplinary regime when things go wrong, yet many feel they have been deprived of a fair hearing. It is clear to the public that the current system lacks transparency, openness, accountability, and independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe media have picked up on these public concerns. I quote from the Southland Times: \u201CIt is almost a test of stamina to see whether the community can muster any sense of actual outrage, rather than just weary sourness, over the alleged misdealings of yet more sharkish real estate agents.\u201D The Dominion Post stated: \u201CIt is time for a system that focuses on the customer, rather than protecting patches and quashing competition.\u201D The Independent stated: \u201CPublic outrage has been sparked by cases involving agents seeking to buy properties themselves, serious undervaluations, and the concealing of vital information from buyers.\u201D Finally, the New Zealand Herald stated: \u201CThe institute \u2026 has regarded its duty of self-regulation for the industry as about just one of those two words, self.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMembers of the public and honest real estate agents alike have complained to me about the way the institute handles complaints\u2014for example, the long delays in processing complaints, the poor quality of investigations, and complainants not being adequately informed. The industry\u2019s actions on occasion have been inexplicable and inexcusable. Members should remember the Ottaway case, where an agent was formally warned by the Commerce Commission and fined a paltry $750 by the Real Estate Institute for marketing a house as being \u201Cout of the hustle and bustle\u201D without disclosing that an apartment block was planned for next door. The buyers estimate their losses to be $35,000 of house value, yet that same agent went on to win several awards as being a top real estate agent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eacece39655429e93a8864fb45076a3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner break I was referring to the Ottaway case. The buyers lost $35,000 of house value, yet that same agent went on to win several awards, as we know, for being a top real estate agent, and was hailed as being an example to the community, an example that the community should be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMembers will remember the institute taking action earlier this year against the Joneses, a real estate firm, for publicly saying: \u201CNew Zealanders pay way too much money for a fairly indifferent sort of service.\u201D The charge was that the Joneses had brought the industry into disrepute by saying that consumers deserved a better deal. The Real Estate Agents Act 1976 gives the Real Estate Institute the privilege of self-regulation and the power to act as the gatekeeper for complaints. In essence, the institute determines the level at which a complaint will be dealt with, if at all. According to the institute\u2019s own figures, which it sent to me, between 2004 and 2006 it received 507 complaints from members of the public, but only nine of those were referred to the independent licensing board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse. The institute recently advised me that it had also received a number of other serious complaints from bodies such as the police and insurance companies, of which 140 were referred to the licensing board. Who knows how many hundreds of complaints were actually made to the institute by police and the insurance industry but not acted upon? We do not know. The institute\u2019s own journal of 4 December this year said that these complaints \u201Ctend to be at the more serious end of the scale\u201D. The need for openness and transparency in this sector cannot be overstated. The industry is seen by many as a closed shop, and that is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ELast year I offered the Real Estate Institute the opportunity to come back to me with a solid set of proposals that would deliver a complaints and disciplinary system that was independent, accountable, open, and transparent. I suggested that the institute look at the Banking Ombudsman, for example, which achieves those outcomes and is funded by the industry, not by the taxpayer. Sadly, the Real Estate Institute\u2019s proposals, in my view, amounted to tinkering. It asked me to increase fines and, effectively, set up regional disciplinary committees, but its proposals would not deliver on transparency, independence, or increased accountability, nor would they restore public confidence in the sector. It was at that point that I instructed the Ministry of Justice to provide me with advice on options for reform to deliver what the community\u2014not the politicians\u2014is demanding of this industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe result is the bill that we are debating tonight, which, at its heart, is about protecting the Kiwi consumer. The Real Estate Agents Bill will provide a modern regulatory framework to protect the consumer when buying or selling property, and will restore consumer confidence in the real estate industry, which is what all those honourable, honest real estate folk want. The bill will make the day-to-day business conduct of real estate agents more open and transparent, will raise the standards of conduct of industry members, and will support honest real estate professionals in their work. The bill addresses the need for more consumer compensation for losses. At present, the Real Estate Institute keeps fines paid by dodgy real estate agents, yet it can legally and morally pass on those same moneys to the victims if it wants to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWhat does the bill do? The bill removes the regulatory functions from the institute, as well as removing the compulsory requirement for agents to become members of that institute. It abolishes the Real Estate Agents Licensing Board and creates a new body independent of the industry, called the Real Estate Agents Authority, to oversee compulsory licensing as well as complaints, disciplinary, and enforcement processes. It will also provide information for consumers. It introduces a fit and proper person test for people entering the industry, and requires ongoing professional training. It sets up a public register of real estate agents, branch managers, and salespeople, to record any breach of industry standards, and any disciplinary matters upheld by the authority and disciplinary tribunal, against the names of those involved. It strengthens mandatory disclosure requirements, including possible conflicts of interest, and introduces a cooling-off period for sole agency agreements. It requires agents to provide buyers and sellers with mandatory standard information before they sign a sale and purchase agreement. The new authority will have a wide range of investigative powers, and will be able to order a wide range of penalties and remedies, including censuring or reprimanding an agent, requiring an agent to apologise to consumers, ordering a reduction of an agent\u2019s fees, and imposing fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill also creates a fully independent disciplinary tribunal to deal with serious cases. The tribunal will have the ability to order the cancellation of licences, award compensation, and impose fines. It will not cost consumers anything to lodge a complaint, and they will not be required to hire lawyers, because the authority, through its complaints assessment committee, will represent their case if it is referred to the disciplinary tribunal. Penalties for criminal offences under the bill are greatly increased. Dishonest agents will now face fines of up to $40,000 for individuals and $100,000 for companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill does not make any changes to the employment status of salespeople within the industry. The Government will review this provision after 5 years to consider whether there is any justification for the real estate industry not being subject to the same employment law as other industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThese reforms will not be funded by the taxpayer but will be funded by the industry from the over $1 billion in commissions collected each year through licence fees and levies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will quote from one of a handful of letters I have received since I foreshadowed these reforms: \u201COn behalf of Bayleys Realty Group I would like to extend and reiterate our support for the requirement for change and improvement in the regulation of the real estate industry. Both John Bayley and I believe this is an important opportunity to bring positive change to the industry which will in turn elevate levels of consumer protection and confidence in our sector. Mark Grant, CEO, Bayleys Group.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, as I said at the start, this bill is about protecting consumers as they buy and sell their biggest asset, and supporting the vast majority of the people in this industry, who are good, honourable, honest, hard-working real estate folk who do a good job every day, but are tarred by the same brush as the last land shark that ripped somebody off. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002249a28770575d4a53a3b12349121f5a1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249a28770575d4a53a3b12349121f5a1b\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister, Clayton Cosgrove, for his opening comments in respect of the first reading of the Real Estate Agents Bill, and I will address some of the comments he made during the course of the debate. The Minister is right: the Real Estate Agents Act of 1976 does need reform. The legislation does need to provide transparent and accountable governing bodies and disciplinary tribunals. All of those things are true. He quoted a letter from the chief executive officer of Bayleys Real Estate towards the conclusion of his remarks, where the chief executive said that this was an important opportunity to bring positive change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, National does not believe that the way this bill has been handled brings positive change. The Minister had an opportunity to deal with this issue in a rational and considered way. In my view, and in the view of the National Party, Mr Cosgrove, in his capacity as the Minister in charge of this bill, has overshot somewhat in the way that he has dealt with this particular legislation. In fact, from recollection, this reform has been announced more times than even the economic transformation we are still waiting for from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe know, for example, that the most common phrase Mr Cosgrove has uttered since he first announced this change in May of this year is \u201Cland shark\u201D, which is a phrase he uses at every opportunity. Unfortunately, that type of approach has actually vilified thousands of land agents who have never done anything other than to go about their business selling properties on behalf of customers\u2014vendors who are satisfied with the process, who have paid their commission, and who have got on with their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ENational agrees with the Minister that an independent authority to deal with complaints and disciplinary issues is needed. We are in favour of transparency and accountability, but we are not in favour of the vilification of an entire industry off the back of some scattered examples the Minister has used. The Minister came to the House today and started talking about the \u201Chonest folk\u201D in the real estate industry but, unfortunately, since May of this year that is not a phrase that has carried the same amount of mentions as the phrase \u201Cland shark\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat worries me most about this particular piece of reform is that it is actually a missed opportunity, because there is need for reform, and on that I agree with the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. But here we are going to miss the opportunity to found a system that is based on the customer\u2014on the consumer, and on his or her right to be treated fairly. Rather, the opportunity is being taken to pound an industry into submission. When the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill came to the House, we trusted the lawyers to come up with some suggestions that would make their industry more user-friendly. I suggest that the rational, calm approach adopted in that instance would have been a good model to use in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI tell members that on this side of the House we are concerned about several things. First, bureaucratising is not the answer, and we have seen that with the Department of Building and Housing. That particular department was an answer to a problem that could have been solved in quite a different way, and we need to be convinced that the costs associated with the new process the Minister has described this evening are not going to be passed on to the very consumers the Minister purports to protect with the introduction of this legislation. I have followed this debate very carefully for the last 8 or 9 months, as the Minister knows, and one of my favourite things that I found very interesting in the original discussion document, which was tucked away in the middle of the document under an innocuous bullet point, was the issue of changing the employment status of real estate agents from independent contractors to employees, and all the legislative implications that that would have for that industry. Of course, the Minister backed off that suggestion once people said to hang on; they began to ask: \u201CWhere\u2019s the evil?\u201D, \u201CWhere\u2019s the harm?\u201D, and \u201CWhat is it that the legislation is trying to address?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e045fab99fd04e469dd961315806d59e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: A listening Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4f7ae6e04d40ebacff653d0fecdc48\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says he is part of a listening Government. It is a pity he was not in the Chamber for the Committee stage of the Electoral Finance Bill. But what I can say is that to impose in legislation a 5-year review of the employment status of 20,000 New Zealanders is to hang the sword of Damocles over those particular individuals, so that the Minister, whoever that may be at the time, retains the power and the authority simply to change the employment status of a group of people at whim. It is unacceptable to leave an industry in an uncertain state for that entire 5-year period; all those prospective agents, who like the freedom of being independent contractors, and who do not put demands on their employers with legislative requirements, now do not know what their employment status could be in 5 years\u2019 time. That is a bad way to draft law. It lacks certainty and it lacks clarity. It is not a good way to propose to deal with that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI tell members of the House that I have read through this debate, and I cannot in fact understand why, if the Minister is so determined to reform the negatives in the real estate industry, property management is excluded from this legislation. Why is an industry that holds trust account moneys on behalf of clients excluded from this legislative framework? Why are residential tenancies excluded? Who is not being protected in those two instances? It is the consumer who is not being protected, yet the Minister comes to the House and says that this bill has nothing to do with promoting his own political prospects; this bill is all about the consumer. Well, actually, if it were about the consumer, property managers and the like would be included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EA first read of the bill reveals that it also fails to remedy an oddity under the Auctioneers Act: a real estate agent cannot hire the services of a registered auctioneer unless that real estate agent is also a registered auctioneer. That situation is not addressed in this wide-sweeping reform with which the Minister proposes to protect the consumer. So I say to the Minister that we come at this issue determined to see accountability and transparency, and an independent body put in place. What we will not agree to\u2014and the reason that we will not be voting for this legislation today\u2014is a half-baked effort, with truly poor work having been done on legislation that is to protect consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe are going to hear more rhetoric from the Minister over the next short while, and he should bear this in mind: every time he opens his mouth to promote himself and his so-called destruction of land sharks, he should think of those thousands of land agents who have done nothing wrong, and of the entire industry that is at risk of being vilified by a piece of legislation not comprehensive enough to deal with many of the proper issues it should be dealing with\u2014many of the issues that, in fact, National members agree should be dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea75c01d53fc4feab701b259d7bcc16a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea75c01d53fc4feab701b259d7bcc16a\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou, Mr Assistant Speaker. I would like to take a short call on this Real Estate Agents Bill, because when somebody mentions the word \u201Cshark\u201D my ears prick up. Why? As a diver who has been diving for many years, and as a fisherman, it has been my experience during my life to encounter many kinds of sharks, starting from the Carcharodon carcharias, which is the white pointer or the \u201Cwhite death\u201D, the mako shark, the thresher shark, the orca, the blacktip shark, the whitetip shark\u2014you name it; I have dealt with them all both as a fisherman and head-on as a diver taking photos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI am very interested in Simon Power\u2019s analysis in terms of land sharks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71d2fcfcb97473fae29f6dc2e144586\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ab6ceb8ccf48cd95ea4d88040f8f79\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am speaking to this bill. That member has mentioned land sharks on many occasions, and I think it is appropriate that I get up in reply. Simon Power said in his presentation that my colleague has offended thousands of real estate agents. Having read the bill, I found no provision in it that would offend me, except\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4306a6c3db484aad8ac6046a1e06e7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00b4886461b4d148645b6dc890c53bb\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I listened to the member. The advantage of becoming a diver is that one goes into a silent world, and one observes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6674964e6c741eb9a7180a6d9cf1843\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: You got that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b431ab07ee440feaa29d1177e68ff35\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I got it right. In that silent world one observes, with wisdom, what is actually happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI say to that member and to the House that this bill is not directed at law-abiding, decent land agents\u2014and that member knows it. I ask whether anyone has tried to extract teeth from a mako shark, and I challenge that member. To say that this bill will wipe out a number of legal, law-abiding land agents, is a lot of humbug. I will invite that member, perhaps the next time I go diving off the Cavalli Islands, to come with me. I will look after him, and I will take him into the land of real sharks\u2014real sharks. In my area of the Cavalli Islands and Matauri Bay, the sharks love legs that look like milk bottles We see flippers, half a wetsuit, and those white legs, and that is when we understand what sharks are all about. They will hone in, without any prejudice and discrimination. But I will offer that member, that colleague across the Chamber, an invitation to come diving with me in the Christmas period. It will be \u201CPokare Kare Ana\u201D for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003ETo suggest that this bill will cut across the intelligence and the rights of real estate agents who are going about doing their job\u2014come on; get a life! When someone mentioned the word \u201Csharks\u201D\u2014and that member mentioned the word several times\u2014I thought that I had had a lot of experience with sharks. I compliment my colleague Clayton Cosgrove, because he has the courage to be able to decide who the real sharks are, and who are in between. At the end of the day, this legislation is designed to protect the public of New Zealand, those hard-working families, who are out to purchase a decent house\u2014genuinely\u2014or a piece of land, and it will protect them from people who are going to exploit them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EAt this time of the year, when there is goodwill to all men and women, and a time of sharing and greetings, perhaps my invitation to the colleagues across the other side is kei te pai\u2014be of good cheer\u2014even though there are a few sharks swimming around here. N\u014D reira. Mihi atu ana ki a koutou. Kia ora koutou katoa. Mere Kirihimete; happy New Year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00226677b25198734bf7a91c9ae81c3557e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226677b25198734bf7a91c9ae81c3557e3\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak to the first reading of the Real Estate Agents Bill. I very much enjoyed the last contribution about sharks, and the long list of different types of sharks, but I have to say that it did not have anything to do with the bill tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we are looking for a reason why real estate agents are so exercised and upset about the way in which these reforms have been handled, we find that one of the things comes down to the use of that word \u201Cshark\u201D. For good, honest people who take their work seriously and conduct their work professionally, being called a land shark is incredibly emotive and deeply insulting. I think that the Minister Clayton Cosgrove needs to go and talk to some agents in order to understand how deeply insulted they have been by being called not only land sharks but rogues and cowboys. The board of the Real Estate Institute certainly did not enjoy being called a B-grade Goon Show.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThese people take their work extremely seriously and conduct it with a high level of professionalism, but by the way we hear the Minister talk about the industry, in that kind of John Wayne meets Buzz Lightyear style\u2014he is there to shoot up the town, to reform this industry, and to drag it kicking and screaming into the new century\u2014it is as if he is on a crusade to tidy up a range of issues that are purely and simply not there for by far the majority of those hard-working Kiwis who work in this area. The crusade is certainly designed to build the Minister\u2019s own profile and to build a platform\u2014which has been successful\u2014to elevate his position in the Labour Government. But it bears no relation to what is going on out there in the industry. If we look at what is happening in the real estate industry, we find that in any given year there are about 200,000 transactions. Most of those go well, without incident. This year there have been only 57 complaints. I have been told today that about one deal in 10,000 goes wrong, so what we have here is a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Minister wants to give the impression that he has dragged the industry kicking and screaming into reform, but that is not true. The industry has been calling for reform for years. The industry has been saying that its Act needs to be updated, and that it needs to have a modern Act that reflects today\u2019s situation. But that has not happened. The Government has actually dragged its heels and it has not updated the Act. But it now wants to give the impression that the industry has been against these reforms, and that it is somehow being dragged into a modern century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI think the Minister has also overlooked the fact that some of the changes being called for\u2014and some are in this bill\u2014are exactly what the institute has been asking for, for years. The Minister said that in the event that something went horribly wrong and there was a crook in the industry, the fine would be \u201Ca paltry $750\u201D. Well, it is $750 because that is what it says in the Act. And the agents themselves have been saying: \u201CLet\u2019s increase it. Let\u2019s increase it dramatically, so that when crooks are found they can be pinged for $10,000, $20,000\u2014$50,000\u2014and we can really make a difference and send a strong message.\u201D But, once again, the Government has dragged its heels in updating the reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ELikewise, industry representatives have been calling for changes to the way that agents are educated. They have wanted to add a lot more rigour to their education, and to make sure that the hurdles are significantly higher for agents to get into the market. Once again, the Minister has dragged his heels. We know that he has, on his desk for sign-off, a new education regime for agents, but he is refusing to sign it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESo while the Minister is channelling a Clint Eastwood - type character, our message from this side of the House is that he is not Clint Eastwood, actually; he is a Minister in a responsible position, and it is not his job to use emotive language to highly politicise an issue that could have been straightforward. It should have been a genuinely straightforward reform issue, but the Minister has made it a highly political issue and has done 20,000 agents a disservice. He has done their families a disservice but, more important, he has created the impression that all real estate agents are crooks, that they are all land sharks, and that they are sort of Herb Tarlich goons who are there just to rip people off. He actually used the phrase \u201Cripping off\u201D in his speech. If we bring some common sense to the discussion and the debate, and if we bring the debate back down to a more reasonable level, we find that that is not the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThere are tens of thousands of agents who work extremely hard. They are small-business people. They pay their taxes. They take their own risks. They put bread on their families\u2019 tables, and they take their jobs extremely seriously. They see what they do as being a profession. They see what they do as being something really important. But that has been lost now in this debate, because we have had this hysteria created that they are all a pack of crooks\u2014that they are all out there to rip off Kiwis. And that is a deep insult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI have been speaking to some real estate agents, and many of them, the Minister might be interested to know, voted Labour. I do not know why, but they voted Labour in the past and they feel deeply insulted by what the Minister has said. He has used this bill as a platform for his own profile; he has not looked at this issue in a common-sense way. While he has talked about tarring agents with the same brush, he is the one who has done that. He is the one who has used that emotive language to create the impression that all agents are crooks. Had this been handled in a different way, I think our side would probably have supported the majority of these reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn terms of what needs to be done, we think there are some significant areas to tidy up. Who knows why property managers are left out of this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe4d2e0eb0c40438487865b8bfb6588\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Bizarre!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221de3961819e44f9799e2fb3017514a67\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: It is utterly and totally bizarre, when one in five complaints is as a result of some kind of property management issue, not the real estate aspect, at all. We have 200,000 transactions in a year, and only about one in every 10,000 of those goes bad. This Minister is pretending that it is the norm for real estate transactions in this country to go bad. Well, I do not think that Kiwis buy that kind of rhetoric. I hope they understand that the debate here has been very misleading, it has been hysterical in parts, and it is a method of building a platform for the Minister to build his own profile as opposed to doing a service to New Zealanders by putting forward reasonable reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EReal estate agents themselves have been calling for many of these reforms, so although I think that the Minister wants to create the impression that he has corralled these outlaws and that he is the one who is bringing some professionalism back into the industry, that is not true. It is a deep insult to those agents who have worked extremely hard, have built up a professional background, and have done work in our communities over the years. That is one of the things in this bill that we think needs to be tidied up during the select committee process. We want to see things like the issue relating to property managers debated during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe want to see some changes, but more than anything we want the Minister to peg back the politicisation of this issue. We want him to bring back some common sense, to get these reforms through, and to update some of the laws relating to this industry in a common-sense, reasonable way, because the politicisation of the issue has been deeply insulting to the professionals who work in the industry and to their families, and it has done a disservice to the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00226370d4ca9fe54ac495deea5093253c64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226370d4ca9fe54ac495deea5093253c64\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I will not labour this, but I just ask your indulgence and advice. I have been accused time and time again in this debate of characterising all real estate agents\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221701ac65ca7748dda585ee8eabec7178\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a matter for debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b210fc25d54110984015dfffcd073c\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not even a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022085619cb5a9046aeb0a0d125fe299c66\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the members to excuse me, but this is a point of order, and I ask whether I could be heard in silence. I thank the members. I have been accused of characterising all real estate agents as rogues, land sharks, or evil people. For the record\u2014and I am quite happy to provide it to all members\u2014in the last 12 months, in every interview and every press statement on this issue, I have said repeatedly that the vast majority of the industry are honourable, hard-working, honest folks. That is a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15e70e9be694da3aa0523137d5564e5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. That is a debatable issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022682877a72cc64ab3a9a00b960e8631ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022682877a72cc64ab3a9a00b960e8631ec\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is not my job to defend the Minister, but I have to say that in the discussions I have had with the Minister he has always recognised that most real estate agents in this country are honest, law-abiding, genuine people. I know that from time to time he has used the words \u201Cland sharks\u201D and perhaps some other stronger terms, but he has normally clarified that with a specific case, as he did in his opening speech tonight. I know a number of real estate agents. I know them personally and I know them professionally, and I have not had one of them complain to me about this bill. I have had several mention that they are concerned about the industry and say that it needs a tidy-up, as the two National Party speakers have said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have listened to the National Party contribution thus far with a good deal of interest. I thought that Simon Power made some very good points and that Katherine Rich made some good points at the end. But the underlying point that seems to come across from National members is that they will not vote for this bill because the Minister has upset a few real estate agents. Katherine Rich said at the end of her speech that she wants the bill to be tidied up at the select committee and that she recognises that some technical amendments could make it a better bill. That is in essence what she said, but she summarised that by saying, in effect, that as the Minister has upset a significant number of real estate agents, National cannot see its way to supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe real estate industry is, to all intents and purposes, a closed shop and it needs to be opened up. It needs to be opened up and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291af56b69d5142e88cc2158316690f75\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Anybody can join it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022402ba81d9b8b4a4aa827df29b044b28c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Everybody can join it, but they have to join it, and they have to abide by rules and standards that are pretty much second-rate. The underlying point is\u2014[Interruption] Should I sit down, Mr Assistant Speaker, while the members have an exchange?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1066ee1fcf44b286cb4e5f5993a647\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member on my left and to the member on my right who are interjecting on each other that that is totally out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241974663d61e4a7c872715b9b01e4c0e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. The underlying purpose behind this bill is to give some protection to people who buy houses and homes. Having one out of 10,000 being ripped off is not good enough. It is not good enough. The member Simon Power shakes his head. He thinks it is OK for one in 10,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd391d73149b4bb0bf42da7498ffe352\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The bill doesn\u2019t do that. Read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a26703232e054930ba9e8af0c75ff6e6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the member should read the bill, and I remind the member what the purpose of the bill is. The bill states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to\u201D\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d5c4670e6e4103bbe799574e5ed768\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister opposite knows what I am going to say; I have let the comment go three times so far. It is completely inappropriate, under the Standing Orders, to suggest that any member of this House is under the influence of anybody outside this Chamber, and I want him to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796725d6b075425a9ba7bb22aca01c23\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d33b29548e3491f96c609e6d5e45ac6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that I never heard anything like that, but members know that they cannot indicate that anyone is under the influence of any outside person. All members here are honourable members and their word is their bond. I would suggest that we get on with the debate. The Minister said that he did not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206810bae783940f2b449a8f67e767398\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I was about to read the purpose of the legislation, which is in clause 3 in Part 1, for the benefit of the National Party. It states: \u201C(1) The purpose of this Act is to promote and protect the interests of consumers in respect of transactions that relate to real estate. (2) The Act achieves its purpose by\u2014(a) regulating agents, branch managers, and salespersons: (b) raising industry standards: (c) providing accountability through a disciplinary process that is independent, transparent, and effective.\u201D To New Zealand First that all sounds like very good news. This industry needs a tidy-up, and this bill will go some way to achieve that. I accept that when it goes to a select committee it will be amended, changed, and adjusted, but at the end of the day it will come out as a bill that one hopes will address the problems of consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EReal estate agents are a service industry. They service the public. I can say to the honourable members opposite that the most expensive asset an individual, or in particular a young married couple, purchases is a home. Those people need to know that they will get a fair and reasonable deal out of the whole thing, and they do not need to go away thinking that they have been ripped off. This bill attempts to do that. It puts in place a number of rules, which those members have referred to and that will possibly be subject to some change at the select committee, but they are relatively minor amendments. They are not a reason for National Party members to shake their heads and say that they will not support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESimon Power opened his speech, and I thought he was going well, by saying that the current legislation, the 1976 Act, needs updating and needs to be brought into the 21st century. This bill attempts to do that, and with his willingness\u2014I know he is a lawyer and he knows the ins and outs and the intricacies of legal matters\u2014and his positive contribution, I am certain this bill could be improved to the point that it satisfies him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is comfortable with the way the bill reads now, but we recognise that we are not the experts on the real estate industry and that some concerns will probably need to be addressed as the select committee progresses with the bill. But we think this is something that needed to be done a long time ago. I note that the Minister did call the real estate industry to account some time ago. He asked agents, on a voluntary basis, to tidy up their act\u2014putting it in finer words. That opportunity was declined, so the Minister had to make the choice of either doing something or sitting on his hands and doing nothing. Thankfully\u2014and New Zealand First thanks him\u2014he has come to grips with this issue and has produced this bill that will go a large way towards addressing the concerns of people who purchase houses and homes. That is the purpose of this bill. Those people have to get a fair and reasonable deal. New Zealand First supports this bill going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002297c92848759c43f4b5783a688c42b4d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297c92848759c43f4b5783a688c42b4d8\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party welcomes this bill and will support it going to the select committee. Like the Government and many people in the community, we too have concerns about whether homebuyers and sellers currently have adequate rights and protections in relation to the activities of unscrupulous or incompetent real estate agents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EBuying or selling a house or other property is the biggest commercial transaction many ordinary citizens undertake in their lives. Often people do not fully understand what they are getting into when they sign agreements with agents, even if they have been in the property market before. It is an even more perilous exercise for the many people for whom this is the first time. Buyers and sellers can, and do at times, become the innocent victims of wheeling and dealing at a level of which they have little or no comprehension. As non-professionals in the world of real estate, most of us tend to take real estate agents at their word and when something goes wrong we have only a dim notion of what, if any, remedies are available to us. Some of the more notorious cases, for example, that of Deb Leask in Napier, have appeared in the media but many never see the light of day. All too often people do not make a complaint at all because they do not understand the processes involved and/or because they have no faith that they will receive any redress, at least without having to take on potentially expensive litigation, which would undermine the purpose of the action in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe appreciate the effort the Government is taking to reform real estate law and institute a range of new consumer protection measures, including the establishment of an independent Real Estate Agents Authority that will oversee licensing, complaints, and disciplinary and enforcement processes, and provide information to consumers. The new authority will have broad investigative powers, along with the ability to order a wide range of penalties and remedies. The bill before us tonight also includes the establishment of a Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal that will be separate from the authority. This tribunal will investigate all charges laid by another new body, called the complaints assessment committee, whose job it will be to sort out which complaints are serious enough to go forward and, where necessary, refer them to other bodies too, like the police or the Commerce Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAt the moment the system is run almost entirely in-house by the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand. The Government says that only nine complaints out of the 507 received by the Real Estate Institute in the past 3 years have actually gone to the independent Real Estate Agents Licensing Board for resolution. Although these figures may, for all I know, be contestable\u2014I have not extensively researched this\u2014it is still of concern that so few complaints reach any independent body for action. Most complaints, meanwhile, go to subcommittees of the institute where the maximum penalty is $750, rather than the $5,000 that can be applied by the licensing board. The new authority will be able to fine an agent up to $10,000 and an agency up to $20,000 and will have the power to publicise its findings and the sanction imposed. It will be able to demand an apology, order terms of settlement on a house deal, and if a criminal offence is committed the fines rise to $40,000 and $100,000 respectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFurther major measures contained in this bill include the establishment of a public register of real estate agents and sales people, recording any breaches of industry standards on their part, a requirement that licensed agents have ongoing professional development training, and an obligation on agents to give consumers educational information about their rights, plus a written statement disclosing any conflicts of interest they may have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Real Estate Institute and its members are, of course, affected hugely by this bill. I note that the institute \u201Cwelcomes those reforms in the bill which remedy real problems in the current regime but is concerned that the bill goes too far in changing the law where there is no problem and not far enough in other areas which require more regulation.\u201D The Real Estate Institute appears to endorse the purpose of the bill in further protecting consumers\u2019 interests, raising industry standards, providing an independent and transparent disciplinary process, and introducing compulsory continuing education for agents. The Real Estate Institute also appears to be happy that the bill makes no change to the employment status of salespeople within the industry, although I note that this will be reviewed within 5 years of the legislation becoming law\u2014a measure that the Green Party definitely welcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, the institute, as the National Party has pointed out, also has a number of major issues with the bill, including what it sees as its failure to include property management and letting within its scope, a perceived lack of industry consultation on the setting of levies and fees, the aforesaid requirement to review the employment status of agents within 5 years, and the proposed changes to the education of real estate agents\u2014an issue where I have a particular concern about what is going on. I look forward to hearing further from the institute on these matters and the other matters it raises, along with hearing from all the other submitters who will, I am sure, come forward with all viewpoints during the parliamentary process ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn summary, I think the bill is about justice not only being done but being seen to be done. In this day and age most of us are keen on some real independence and transparency in complaint and review functions, whichever body of Government we are dealing with\u2014something, by the way, I would love to see applied to the operations of the Ministry of Social Development. Meanwhile I think there are some aspects of the bill before us that may need tidying up. Although fundamentally supporting the bill, the Green Party will, as ever, remain alert to the possibility of helpful amendments during its passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5c53dd844e04e20ae7cc9a21ca5761b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5c53dd844e04e20ae7cc9a21ca5761b\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, ki a koe an\u014D Mr Assistant Speaker, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. Let me open this k\u014Drero with something that I found fromMargaret Mahy: \u201CThese days it seems to me that when I look at the world I see many people including politicians, television readers, real estate agents and free-market financiers, librarians too at times dressing as sharks, eating leaves and drinking out of puddles, casually taking over the powerful and dangerous images that the imagination presents, eager to exploit the fictional forms that haunt us all \u2026\u201D. How awesome is that! In other words, the operation of truth is exercised with a certain amount of freedom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs anyone who regularly has a look at the real estate magazines would know, real estate agents have a pretty remarkable talent at being enormously creative in the way they describe the state of property. A derelict, rundown shack can be branded as \u201Cneeding a lick of paint\u201D, an ugly throw-back to the 1970s with colours thrown together during a late-night dope session or acid trip is promoted as \u201Cfunky\u201D, and a house that breaches every building code under the Act is labelled as \u201CDIY delight\u201D. The reality is that disturbing mistruths, poor contractual advice, misleading representations, and outright lies have all entered the environment in which we consider this bill\u2014a bill to protect and promote the interests of consumers in real estate transactions, and the M\u0101ori Party says it is about time. I think the ultimate irony of the state of the real estate industry was revealed earlier this year when Harcourts sought to honour one of its real estate agents who deliberately misled consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party welcomes the advent of a new regulatory framework for the real estate industry for another very important reason: the correlation between discrimination by real estate agents and limited accommodation options for M\u0101ori has long been a part of the scene. In 1991 the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Housing Research Project reported that non-M\u0101ori or P\u0101keh\u0101 families will have more choice of housing because landlords, letting agents, real estate agents, and mortgage lenders will feel more comfortable interacting with them and will believe their families to be more reliable, trustworthy tenants or mortgagees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EJust 2 years ago, in October 2005, in my own electorate a M\u0101ori woman was reported to have been told by a Tauranga real estate agent from First National that the rental property did not want M\u0101ori tenants. Kelly Lovett subsequently lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission and the Race Relations Commissioner, Joris de Bres, and they confirmed that such discrimination was illegal. Illegal or not, Tokoroa landlord Walter Pellikan quickly came in to support the taking of such a stand. His view was that \u201Cbanning M\u0101ori tenants makes good business sense and should be allowed\u201D. Just to put this in some context, the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand eventually came out with a very strong statement encouraging members to \u201Cactively work against racist policies by rental property owners\u201D. It also advised that such actions went against the institute\u2019s code of conduct. Yet 6 months later, despite the advice of the industry leaders, another report, this time in Nelson, Tasman, and Marlborough, confirmed that discrimination in the home ownership market was still being delivered by some real estate agents. The Centre for Housing Research described comments from social service organisations in Marlborough that spoke of difficulties in working with real estate agents to house M\u0101ori clients, concluding that M\u0101ori were being discriminated against by racist practices that act as barriers to M\u0101ori accessing rental housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI rise to give this context to provide some perspective on how M\u0101ori consumers have experienced real estate agents, managers, and salespeople for decades upon decades of encounters. We are well aware that the industry\u2019s disciplinary procedures and processes have not worked in ways that exude transparency and accountability. The sales psychology has dominated over industry standards. Consumers have faced real risk from agents who have mishandled funds, given poor contractual advice, misused information, or have undisclosed conflicts of interest. The home truths of the industry have been far from acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill to ensure that the administration of licensing, complaints, disciplinary and enforcement processes, industry standards, and practice rules are enabled to take place and restore the reputation of the real estate industry. The bill sets out the specifications by which anyone engaged in real estate agency work must be licensed and act within the scope of that licence. That is extremely constructive and well worth supporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere is one issue we are hoping the select committee stage will advance. The bill enables certain exemptions for the licensing processes for real estate agency work. Amongst the exemptions are Landcorp and its employees. This issue is one that we are keen to receive further advice on, particularly in light of the issues that we have been raising over the past 2 years in regard to Landcorp sales. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe have brought to this House, and to the attention of the Ministers, concerns raised by Hauraki and the Tainui Waka Alliance, Ng\u0101ti Kahu, Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, the New Zealand Maori Council, and other iwi regarding Landcorp activities in relation to the sale of lands subject to Treaty claims. We all remember the noble advocacy put forward by Ng\u0101ti Kahu to try and stop the sale of the repossessed Rangiputa station on the Karekare peninsula. We remember the concerns over the sale of the Taurewa land blocks and the proposed sale of a $10 million block of prime Coromandel land at Whenuakite, which should have been the subject of negotiation with the Hauraki M\u0101ori Trust Board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhile we were pleased that in raising these issues the Minister for State Owned Enterprises eventually announced a review of Crown land disposal, a review reported back in September that we must never leave a stone unturned when considering the vital significance of whenua, of land, to tangata whenua. We will be looking at the select committee process for clarity around the exemptions from the regulations proposed in this bill, particularly the fact that Landcorp will be exempt from the regulations around disclosure of conflicts of interest. We in the M\u0101ori Party believe we need robust processes for the sale of land subject to Treaty claims by Landcorp, and we will definitely be interested in the debate as it unfolds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, urgency can be long and hard work without too much let-up or moments of light relief. In thinking about where these problems have come from in the recent real estate industry debacles, I came across this poem by Andrew Chiu-kit Tsang of Manukau that I thought I might add to the debate. This poem, this waiata, this k\u014Drero, is called \u201CDuring the Real Estate Boom\u201D, and I am sure Mr Power will be interested in this, because he listened to my first waiata\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac80a479d00f4d3daae1bbba92f4fd2b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288080a5e3c4146519b10e5c282232d14\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. It goes something like this: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EDuring the real estate boom\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EEveryone becomes a real estate agent\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENo wonder\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere are 13,000 real estate agents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E8,000 police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003Eand 3,000 soldiers in our country\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI went to my favourite sandwich shop in Manukau\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe boss wished to sell me his listing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut I only wanted a sandwich!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI went to Papatoetoe to get a fresh chicken\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe boss wished to sell me her listing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut I only want a fresh chicken\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI ring up my best friend in Howick hoping for a good chat\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHe also wished to sell me his listing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut I only want a good chat!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESome say a good man should be able to buy his own castle\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EGimme a break!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not yet a good man!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat is deep and meaningful. It is food for thought, honourable members. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f30a78a7939644329b2531322ccabdde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f30a78a7939644329b2531322ccabdde\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E There can be no argument that as service providers, real estate agents ought to be accountable for their actions and for the service they provide. We will be supporting the reference of this bill to a select committee for one reason, and one reason alone. In the debate that has unfolded over the last year, the one organisation that has not, in our view, had a significant opportunity to put its case forward and to be examined and tested upon that case, is the real estate industry. We think that an opportunity before a select committee for those issues to be teased out is the appropriate way forward, because when we look at this bill, we see that it takes us a long way from what we would regard as an acceptable regime for the regulation of the real estate industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Real Estate Agents Act dates back to 1976. It is outdated. It does need to be reformed, but this bill goes way beyond that. This is not a reformation; this is a complete replacement. It is a revolution, and it is an unnecessary revolution; the case has not been made for the measures that this bill contains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFor example, there is no doubt that there needs to be in place an adequately structured and resourced disciplinary regime for real estate agents. Under the existing legislation, for 30 years there has been a provision for the appointment of regional disciplinary committees, but none have ever been appointed. So the Minister has said that because no Government has ever implemented this Act, the Act is not working and it should be replaced. Worse still, the Government will veer away from what has been a long-established principle when it comes to industry regulations in New Zealand, and that is the principle of industry self-regulation. We hold industries accountable for the activities of their members. The Law Society, the Institute of Chartered Accountants, and any other professional body has its own internal rules, procedures, and accountabilities. In this instance, this bill effectively nationalises the real estate industry, because it says \u201CWe do not trust you to regulate your affairs and the conduct of your members in a way that is appropriate. We will therefore put in place a statutory environment that you will not have control over but that will be independent\u201D\u2014and that is a double-edged word at the best of times\u2014\u201Cso that we can ensure\u201D, allegedly, \u201Ca standard of public performance.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Minister said tonight that we should not worry, as the taxpayer will not pay for this; the industry will pay for it. What that means is that the consumer will pay for it. People have spoken tonight, Mr Brown and others, about the young couple going out to buy their first home, but I say that every time they buy a first home or shift up to another home they will be paying for the regime put in place by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe have around 19,000 or 20,000 real estate agents in New Zealand. By my count, the so-called bad eggs\u2014and I am not going to use the language the Minister has, because I do not think Ministers should use extravagant language to describe situations\u2014or the non-performers would be, by the most charitable of counts, fewer than 100, and probably around 50 out of 19,000. So here we are, putting in place a regime to curb the excesses of the few by controlling the many. But we are going to go beyond that and say that we no longer trust the industry to regulate its affairs. We are going to impose statutory regulation on its affairs, and the costs will be borne by the users. If we think about any other set of professions in this country and apply the same yardstick, we know there would be uproar. It is totally unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs I said, the only reason for supporting the introduction of this bill is to allow the real estate industry the opportunity to put its case before a select committee, to be examined in public, and to be able to answer some of the charges and allegations that have been made, by innuendo in the main, over the last 12 months. I say very clearly that if this bill emerges from the select committee looking as it is today, then we will not be supporting it any further because it is simply a step too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe good real estate agents that we have heard referred to tonight provide an immense community service for a large number of people. I know from my own electorate that a number of real estate agents are involved in local service clubs, and their companies are involved in funding or supporting a myriad of local activities, because they need to be part of their communities in order to provide a service to those communities. They need to know about schools, community organisations, and neighbourhood set-ups, in order to advise clients and give them confidence when they are buying in a particular area. People want to know about the type of neighbourhood they are buying into and what facilities are available to them\u2014how the system basically runs. So it is in the interests of real estate agents to be in tune with their communities. It is in their interests to provide a good service, a professional service, and an ethical service to the people they serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI repeat that there will be bad eggs in all cases, and there does need to be an effective disciplinary regime put in place. Everyone agrees with that point. But the way to do it is to update and modernise the existing legislation, not to throw it out and impose a State-controlled bureaucracy, in terms of the way in which this industry is to be regulated in future. I am not going to speculate upon the Minister\u2019s reasons for what he is doing, but I think they are grossly excessive. I do not think they are necessary, I think they go way beyond the types of steps that need to be taken, and unless the measures in the bill are radically reformed, then it will not be worthy of further support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut I say to members of the real estate industry that over the years I think they have, in many senses, been their own worst enemy. I think they have been complacent in terms of the representation of their interests. I think they have believed that basically they could just drift along. They do need to put their case, they do need to be heard, and they do need to be tested. At the end of the day, I am certain that the process will show that the best way of dealing with the issues that consumers, politicians, and, I suspect, the general public are concerned about\u2014and good real estate agents in relation to the credibility of their industry\u2014is through far less Draconian measures than are contained in this bill. If this bill proceeds in this form, then it will do so without United Future\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc0062b0dcbe4258b7d4238b45b5219b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc0062b0dcbe4258b7d4238b45b5219b\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to follow on from what the Hon Peter Dunne has said. I have to say that there is not much in the content of his argument that I can disagree with\u2014just the conclusion. At first glance it may certainly seem prudent to vote for this Real Estate Agents Bill at its first reading and subject it to the proper scrutiny of a select committee, but it needs such an extreme makeover and such amendments in terms of property management and other integral issues that have been omitted, that any proper amendments should well be outside the ability and scope of the select committee to make the meaningful changes that would be required. Basically, we need to start again. We need to do it once and do it properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EOn reading the explanatory note of the bill, one could be led to the conclusion that a huge problem regarding real estate agents has just recently surfaced and that this \u201Cremedial sledgehammer to crack a nut\u201D bill is the only solution. The explanatory note states that in March 2007 Cabinet noted a range of problems with the Real Estate Agents Act and agreed to a full review of it. What I want to know, though, is what happened in July 2003 when according to the Associate Minister of Justice, who I understand was Minister Barker, Cabinet made decisions on the Real Estate Agents Act review. Suddenly, 4\u00BD years later, we need to consider this bill\u2014and now, under urgency. Associate Minister of Justice Clayton Cosgrove unfortunately has vilified the industry. He said he had to take the real estate agents\u2014the so-called land sharks\u2014\u201Ckicking and screaming\u201D. The Minister was going to drag land sharks \u201Ckicking and screaming\u201D into the spotlight and \u201Cdrop the hammer on them\u201D, in order to impose a new regulatory regime. We have heard references by the Minister to land sharks, rogue agents, and carnage in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI want to ask why, if it was so bad, nothing was done about this back in 2003. What happened back in 2003, which is over 4 years ago? At the time the Real Estate Institute welcomed the opportunity for public consultation on how the real estate agency industry should be regulated. It said that it had been well aware for over 10 years that a number of elements of that regulatory regime needed updating, particularly in areas of licensing procedures and enforcement of obligations. That is hardly \u201Ckicking and screaming\u201D. It was aware then of a significant number of detailed issues that needed be addressed. Those issues had been drawn to the attention of successive Ministers and discussed with officials, and the work was set aside for over 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThat is what the institute said then and what it wanted then. What did Minister Barker do 4 years ago? It appears he did absolutely nothing. Unfortunately, there is now a real risk that this review of the real estate industry has lost its objectivity, and that it has been hijacked by hyperbole, by emotive labels such as \u201Cland sharks\u201D and \u201Ccarnage in the industry\u201D, and by exaggerated claims that have not necessarily been sustained. For example, we heard in the select committee from the Minister, who said: \u201CI was accused of taking a cheap shot when I referred to the premium case where a High Court judge ruled against a real estate professional. I think it was to the tune of $3.2 million.\u201D I had a look at that case; the amount was $900,000, not $3.2 million as the Minister alleged. Although I admit that it is a significant amount of money, I think the important thing about this case is that, on appeal, it was won and the real estate agent was vindicated. The real estate agent was vindicated, not vilified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, this is the sort of example that does nothing to inspire confidence in the process of this review. We have heard of delays waiting for complaints to be heard. Yet in the most public example of this, where the appropriate forum for that complaint was a regional disciplinary committee\u2014and we have heard about regional disciplinary committees\u2014that committee had to be established under the existing 1976 legislation. Its establishment had to be ratified by the Minister, who had to approve both its establishment and the members. Was he asked to establish it? Yes, he was. Did he do so? No, he did not. It is dangerous to look at only one side of the story and to vilify an industry, when the papers have been on the Minister\u2019s desk for over 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EHaving said that, it is important to support absolutely the purpose of the bill, which is to promote and protect the interests of consumers by regulating agents, raising industry standards, and providing accountability through a disciplinary process that is independent, transparent, and effective. Indeed, the real estate industry itself totally supports this objective, as do we. If one reads the Real Estate Institute\u2019s views it is important to note that it supports, and indeed welcomes, the reforms that remedy real problems in the current regime, but the institute is concerned that it goes too far, changing the law where there is no problem, and not far enough in other areas that require further and more regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis is not an industry being dragged kicking and screaming; this is an industry that has been asking for years for the laws to be updated. This is an industry that is welcoming the update of its regulatory framework. This is an industry that welcomes the independence of the complaints investigation and disciplinary process. This is an industry that welcomes the introduction of compulsory continuing education. This is an industry that wants to be respected, wants accountability, and wants transparency, but it is an industry that deserves good law. It is vital that New Zealanders buying and selling probably their most substantial asset have confidence in the professionals they are using to assist with such a significant financial transaction. There needs to be strong consumer protection and there needs to be strong consumer confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EReal estate involves not only buying and selling property. An important part also relates to property management, and this has been totally ignored by this Government. An integral part of property management is the handling of funds. The Minister himself has highlighted the mishandling of funds as one of the rules that should be applied. So why on earth, then, is it not addressed in this bill? The Government believes that property managers pose less risk. The institute believes, however, that one in five complaints relate to property management groups. Way back in 2003 the institute advised the Minister it was concerned about property managers operating outside trust account control and an audit regime. Now, in 2007, it is still concerned, but what has the Minister done? The Minister has ignored the institute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EProperty management involves holding significant funds in an account. Hundreds of millions of dollars pass through the bank accounts of property managers. What happens to missing rent moneys? The institute, under this bill, has no jurisdiction to deal with complaints about missing rent moneys. There is no requirement to hold the moneys in a trust account. There is no fidelity fund. If residential property managers are not covered by the new regime, then gaps in the current laws will leave consumers vulnerable. If anything goes wrong, the only recourse for consumers may be via the courts. This is contrary to the purpose of the bill, which, of course, is consumer protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere are concerning parallels between the latest bureaucratic system proposed and the Department of Building and Housing. Consumers can still be protected without having to bear the costs of senseless bureaucracy\u2014that is what will happen. The industry will not bear the cost; the cost will be handed down to the consumer, and housing affordability will get harder. For these reasons and the uncertainty, as mentioned by my colleague Simon Power, of whether in 5 years\u2019 time salespeople will be able to work as independent contractors, or whether they will be regarded as employees, National opposes the bill. We welcome and support the industry\u2019s view that transparency and accountability are welcomed. But, unfortunately, this is a wasted opportunity. Proper reform is welcome, but this is not proper reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000847\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ae8f55e3bb34431a16b2fde5db29a2b\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5a54b98146e4b928ae6cd283e21fd2c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00225b31505ffef24863aa52d5cf62834a16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b31505ffef24863aa52d5cf62834a16\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that this bill be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its consideration. I express my pleasure at being able to address such a crowded and excited House at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis bill, which amends the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989, will require all non-bank deposit takers to be registered by the Reserve Bank and to comply with minimum prudential requirements. This will see a significant step forward for the stability of the non-bank sector in New Zealand and, hopefully, for the understanding of New Zealanders about their investment decisions. The bill is part of a package of measures that will strengthen regulatory oversight of our financial sector. My colleague the Minister of Commerce will address some of the other measures later in the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe work on this framework predates the current difficulties some non-bank deposit takers are facing, and it is the Government\u2019s response to the recommendations of a review that I requested from Treasury, the Ministry of Economic Development, and the Reserve Bank in 2005 on the regulation and performance of New Zealand\u2019s financial institutions. So that in turn led to the review of financial products and providers. That review was aimed at strengthening the current regulatory environment in order to promote confidence and therefore increase participation in sound and efficient financial markets. This bill assists that objective by bringing the regulation of non-bank deposit takers into line with international benchmarks. It does this by requiring non-bank deposit takers to comply with minimum prudential requirements set by the Reserve Bank. Recent collapses of finance companies do, however, underscore the need for regulation that raises prudential standards in this sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe amendments in this bill implement the first phase of the new non-bank deposit taker framework. A second bill, to be introduced next year, will cover the remaining amendments required to implement the registered non-bank deposit taker regime, including licensing and fit and proper requirements. The bill adds a new Part 5D to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act to provide for the regulation of non-bank deposit takers. The power conferred on the Governor-General, the Minister, and the Reserve Bank under Part 5D must be exercised for the purpose of promoting the maintenance of a sound and efficient financial system or for avoiding significant damage to the financial system that could result from the failure of a non-bank deposit taker. This provision is similar to section 68 in Part 5 of the Act, which deals with the registration and prudential supervision of registered banks. Non-bank deposit takers are defined to include finance companies, building societies, and credit unions that issue debt securities and provide financial services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides for entities to be declared by regulation to be deposit takers, to cover situations where some institutions that are non-bank deposit takers in substance are not caught by the definition but should appropriately be regulated as non-bank deposit takers. The legislation empowers the Reserve Bank to exempt particular deposit takers or classes of deposit takers from complying with any of the non-bank deposit taking requirements in situations where it makes no sense to capture them in the non-bank deposit taker regime. Non-bank deposit takers will continue to be subject to Securities Act requirements\u2014we are setting this to music later\u2014as enhanced by the review of financial products and providers reforms, including the need to have a trust deed and a prospectus and investment statement. Trustees will continue to be the front-line supervisors of non-bank deposit takers and will have responsibility for enforcing most of the requirements imposed on non-bank deposit takers by the new framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes that non-bank deposit takers will be required to have a current credit rating from a rating agency approved by the Reserve Bank. The bill also includes regulation-making powers relating to the governance of risk management of non-bank deposit takers and the minimum capital a non-bank deposit taker is required to maintain. The non-bank deposit taker and the trustee must ensure that the minimal capital amount is set out in the trust deed. The bill also empowers the making of regulations for the purpose of imposing requirements that non-bank deposit takers and their trustees ensure that trustees include the capital ratio the non-bank deposit taker is required to maintain, a maximum limit on exposures to third parties\u2014that is something I think some of us might like to have in this House\u2014and requirements relating to liquidity. In each case the bill provides that there is not only an obligation on the non-bank deposit taker and trustee to ensure that the trust deed includes what is required by the regulations but also an obligation on the non-bank deposit taker to comply with that provision in the trust deed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe bill enhances the ability of trustees to perform in their new role. If negotiations with the non-bank deposit taker to agree to an amendment to the trust deed in order to comply with the regulations have not been successful, trustees will have the power to make the amendment. The bill creates new offences by non-bank deposit takers, trustees, and directors of non-bank deposit takers. The legislation gives the Reserve Bank the powers to investigate and enforce the regulatory requirements under new Part 5D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAs the prudential responsibilities of the Reserve Bank are expanding, the bill also makes changes to the institutional arrangements of the bank itself. They include amendments to the bank\u2019s governance arrangements that will include the bank\u2019s transparency and accountability, while maintaining an appropriate degree of regulatory independence. The bill does not alter, I wish to emphasise, the Reserve Bank\u2019s monetary policy functions or monetary policy independence. The bill provides that the Minister can direct the Reserve Bank to have regard to a statement of Government policy objectives relating to the financial sector functions and objectives of the Reserve Bank, and to demonstrate in its statement of intent that it has done so. Ministers have the same power in respect of comparable Crown entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe bill enhances the required content in the Reserve Bank\u2019s statement of intent to also bring it into line with Crown entity requirements. In addition, the Reserve Bank\u2019s annual report will need to contain an assessment against the intentions, measures, and standards set out in the statement of intent. The Reserve Bank will be required to regularly assess a report to the Minister on the regulatory impacts of the policies it adopts or that apply in respect of its powers relating to prudential regulation, and the oversight and designation of payment systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe legislation will require that the Reserve Bank publish a financial stability report, which will be provided to the Minister of Finance at least 6-monthly and presented to the House of Representatives. At present the Reserve Bank publishes such a report but is not required to do so. The financial stability report will be required to contain the information necessary to enable an assessment to be made of activities undertaken by the Reserve Bank to achieve its statutory prudential purposes. The bill also increases the Reserve Bank board\u2019s focus on prudential functions when reviewing the performance of the Reserve Bank and the governor, by making specific reference to the Reserve Bank\u2019s prudential functions in the section that outlines the duties of the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) broadens the ability of the Reserve Bank to promote a sound and efficient financial system, while retaining the role of trustee as the front-line supervisor. It is a significant step forward in terms of updating the regulation of non-bank deposit takers and improving the prudential standards adopted by these entities, and I suspect we will have unanimous support for this bill being referred to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff30a656c5642a89a69689db076ba76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff30a656c5642a89a69689db076ba76\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E To listen to the Minister of Finance now in the first reading of this Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3), one would think he sounds about as enthusiastic for this legislation as he is for personal income tax cuts, for which he has about zero enthusiasm. But the difference is that this legislation will go through, whereas with personal income tax cuts, who knows? The last time this Minister promised personal income tax cuts, of course, he changed his mind and he did not deliver them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me come to the detail of this bill. The Minister has covered most of it, and there is little point repeating all of what he said. He went through it so fast that listeners may have missed out on some of the key bits. He mentioned an awful lot about these non-bank deposit takers\u2014he referred to them often. That is what they are, but I want to make it clear that here we are referring to the finance companies, the building societies, the credit unions, and businesses like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is important that we introduce a better regulatory regime for these businesses, because I think many New Zealanders in recent times have suffered significant losses following the turmoil in financial markets associated with the problems in the subprime mortgage market in the United States. We have seen finance companies here in New Zealand go under, with many lenders, if you like\u2014people making deposits with those financial institutions, those non-bank deposit takers\u2014losing their money. I think it is in the interests of all New Zealanders that we improve the regulatory regime around these financial institutions. So many of them now, I think it is fair to say, are actually involved in many activities that the trading banks are involved in. It makes no sense for some of these lending institutions to be carrying out similar kinds of business to trading banks, yet not to be regulated in remotely the same way as trading banks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think that the regulatory regime proposed in this legislation makes sense. The Minister went through it very quickly, but it includes things like requiring finance companies above a certain size to have a credit rating. Banks are required to have that and so should these institutions as well. Things like regulations around risk management, minimum capital requirements, capital ratios, maximum limits on exposure by these financial institutions, and certain liquidity requirements are fundamental prudential regulations. I think all members of this House would say: \u201CYes, now that these institutions are involved in transactions similar to our trading banks they need to have this kind of regulatory framework within which to operate.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI make it very clear right from the outset that National will support the first reading of this bill and it being sent to a select committee. There are a couple of things we will probably want to learn a bit more about during that process. The first one I mention is one the Minister did not mention in his first reading address. He went so fast that I may have missed it\u2014if so, I ask the Minister to forgive me. Clause 6 of the bill has a curious amendment to the principal Act. Maybe a Government speaker will be able to enlighten us as to the purpose of this amendment. Up until now section 16 of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act has enabled the Reserve Bank to deal in foreign exchange. The current provisions enable the Reserve Bank to deal in foreign exchange with any person it thinks fit, including the Crown. That makes sense. It makes sense that the Reserve Bank should be able to deal in foreign exchange with whomever it thinks it makes sense to deal in foreign exchange with, although it should do so very carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut what is curious about this amendment in clause 6 is that it provides also for the Reserve Bank\u2014and it actually amends the provision\u2014to deal with any person, including the Crown. That is fine; that is the existing provision. But it then adds a further provision, providing for the Reserve Bank to deal on behalf of any person, including the Crown. Why do we want the Reserve Bank to be able to deal on behalf of any person? That means the legislation is providing for the Reserve Bank to become a significant currency trading agent. I am a person under the law. Presumably, if I wanted the Reserve Bank to deal in foreign currency on my behalf, this provision would allow that to take place. The Reserve Bank could do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI am curious as to why the Government wants the Reserve Bank not only to be able to deal with any person, including the Crown, which the current law provides for\u2014and I have no problem in dealing on behalf of the Crown, because, after all, the money the Reserve Bank is playing with is really Crown funding at the end of the day, although technically there are probably issues around what is Reserve Bank money and what is Crown money\u2014but also to be able to deal on behalf of any person. I think it would be of interest to learn from any further Government speakers on this first reading as to why that provision has been put in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI also note in clause 7 that the Reserve Bank will now be required to hold higher levels of foreign reserves than in the past. Presumably that relates to this new provision in clause 6 that enables the Reserve Bank to become a greater currency trader than it is at present. Again, I think the select committee will want to examine these clauses. I am not sure there are many knowledgable people in New Zealand who argue that the Reserve Bank should get into more currency trading than it has. Sure, banks like that of Singapore with massive reserves behind them have been, perhaps, fairly successful in intervening in currency markets, but there are huge risks around that, so National will want to learn a bit more about clauses 6 and 7. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAnother clause we will want to learn more about is clause 10. Clause 10 inserts new section 68B, which will enable the Minister to give the Reserve Bank directions. It is not immediately clear to us why this should be required in relation to the bank\u2019s regulation of finance companies. One would think that the regulatory framework would be something independent of political interference. It is not immediately clear to us why the Government sees the need to be able to direct the Reserve Bank in respect of Government policy in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe will want to learn more about this, because the last thing we need is what is meant to be an independent regulatory environment becoming one that the politicians\u2014the Government\u2014can start to meddle with. We know from past experience in this country that when Governments meddle in what are meant to be independent regulatory frameworks, they have not produced great outcomes. I am not being partisan; I think our history shows that Governments from both political flavours have meddled in the past to the detriment of this country. We will want to learn more about why the Government wants that power to give directions about Government policy objectives, as we have concerns about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAlthough we want to learn more about certain of those provisions, National does support the overall policy intent of what this bill sets out to do. However, at the select committee we will want to explore some of those matters that cause us some concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2e0a636808d474fa059797a4950fef2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2e0a636808d474fa059797a4950fef2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in support of the first reading of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). This is the first bill to make it to the House arising from the review of financial products and providers. This extensive project, which has encompassed a task force and nine discussion documents, has followed what I would describe as a quality regulatory design process engaging fully with important stakeholders, from framing the problem definition to designing the policy response, and that is a good process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAs the Minister who inherited the process, I cannot take any credit for where we are now. In fact I would like to remind the House that this review of the financial sector began under the very able leadership of the Hon Paul Swain, who not only gave teeth to the Takeovers Panel but also gave it something to chew on as well, in the form of a Takeovers Code. Then we had the securities markets regime providing for registered exchanges and the introduction of a co-regulatory regime that sees NZX and the Securities Commission undertaking their respective roles in a way that gives confidence to our capital markets, both domestically and internationally. Then we had the changes designed to enhance investor protection, improved disclosure provisions for investment advisers, and stricter rules on insider trading and market manipulation. These take effect at the end of February next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThen we had the review of financial products and providers. This had its genesis in two pieces of work. As a new Minister of Commerce in 2002, I raised the alert concerning the first work, which led to the review of financial intermediaries; and the second, directed by Dr Michael Cullen in 2005, was on the regulation and performance of New Zealand\u2019s financial institutions, which led to the review of financial products and providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill derives from the second of these, and from the work that the Minister of Finance directed. When this resulted in nine discussion documents all being released to the market at the same time, I thought the market would balk at the amount of work that this required, but, to give the market credit where credit is due, it came to the party. Not only did the major stakeholders provide support in their development of the discussion documents themselves but also they provided detailed submissions enhancing the quality of the decision-making process. I pay tribute to all the industry groups, from banks to credit unions, from financial advisers to insurance brokers, and from finance companies to building societies. Out of their contribution we distilled some important principles that we see in the bill tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EConfidence lies at the heart of everything we are doing to enhance the regulatory framework for our non-bank deposit taking sector. This is the first of the bills applying to that sector and it sets up the framework for registration and prudential supervision to be undertaken by the Reserve Bank. Non-bank deposit takers will continue to be subject to the securities regime, and trustees will continue to be front-line supervisors in that regard. A bill to be introduced next year will enhance that supervisory regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDr Cullen has already outlined to the House the key provisions of the bill. All I want to say is that the Government\u2019s decisions did not arise from the finance company collapses. However, the need for this legislation is highlighted by them. People could be forgiven for thinking there is no existing regulatory framework to protect the interests of investors in finance companies if all the information they are relying on came from the media. It is very important to recognise that it is the existing framework that we are strengthening. We are not starting from scratch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe approach the Government has followed has been welcomed by the broad range of sectors that make up our financial sector. I am sure that the bill will attract submissions from those who may dispute the cost-benefit analysis of certain aspects of the prudential requirements imposed by the bank on a wide range of financial institutions, ranging from finance companies to building societies and credit unions. Ministers considered these issues very carefully and felt that the balance fell on the side of exemptions being allowed only to the very small deposit takers from the credit rating provisions. I am sure that the select committee will listen very carefully to all of the submissions in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EFinally, for those who say \u201CBring in these provisions now. Make credit ratings compulsory right now.\u201D, I just make the point that there is absolutely nothing stopping any finance company from getting a credit rating should it choose to do so. If investors want that level of assurance from their finance companies, then they should demand that they do so. This is actually an area where the competitive market does work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Government has adopted a very good process in bringing this bill to the House. I am very pleased that other parties are supporting this bill as part of the review of financial products and providers, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00224c8471eac2cf484b861ecbf0e609f812\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c8471eac2cf484b861ecbf0e609f812\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E As the previous speaker said, we will be supporting the bill. In sending this kind of bill off to a select committee we should be straight-up about why it is here and what we can expect it to achieve. Clearly, we are in an environment where there is stress around the non-bank deposit takers, many of whom, of course, will not do any better as a result of the passage of this bill because of the losses they have already incurred. I have every sympathy with them, but it is probably important for those people who in the future will be considering the investment of their life savings\u2014and I share with the Minister the hope that there will be more of that\u2014to know that this bill will not necessarily secure investments in the future against the risks that are in a market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI venture to suggest that there was a time when we stood in this House and passed other law related to security for investors, to transparency, and so on, which had the effect that I am sure this law will have, which is that some people, with some investments, will have more security because there will be more transparency, but we cannot contain people\u2019s urge to get better returns. To get better returns they have to take bigger risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis legislation will shift the boundary of relatively secure and transparent investments, but it certainly will not do away with risk in the market. It happens that risks around finance companies have eventuated, and, in fact, just about all of them\u2014such as finance companies\u2019 lack of capital, lack of transparency, related-party lending, and published financial information that was either wrong, did not make sense, or could not be understood\u2014will still occur. So Parliament needs to bear in mind that applying this framework to non-bank deposit takers has some merit, but we ought to be careful that we do not mislead investors that there are such things as high-return, risk-free investments. They simply do not exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis will reduce the risks and, therefore, probably the returns associated with non-bank deposit takers. Of course, there is a whole range amongst this group. There is the venerable institution of the Southland Building Society, which is expanding even to the Deputy Speaker\u2019s part of the country and opening branches in Auckland. No one could accuse the Southland Building Society of taking risks or of having a strategy focused excessively on growth, but it will be captured by this alongside the finance companies that have failed so spectacularly in recent times. So let us not pretend we are taking away risk in the market; we are shifting the boundary and doing it in a way that, I think everyone agrees, is a step forward, but let us not pretend it is much more than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe second point about this is that although these mechanisms help with security of investment, they do not guarantee it. Just because people put their money into an entity that has a credit rating, it does not mean that it is safe from loss. We have venerable institutions such as UBS, a worldwide, top-ranking bank\u2014whose future now appears to be in the hands of one of the Gulf state Governments, which has injected $10 billion into it in the last couple of days\u2014on the basis of products that probably had good credit-ratings. In fact, some of them have had AA ratings, which should be regarded as quite a secure investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is ironic that the time when we are putting this bill through\u2014given that credit ratings are probably the core measure in it to reassure investors\u2014is exactly the time when credit-rating agencies are coming under the kind of scrutiny that applied to auditing firms after the Enron collapse. I hope that the select committee will have the opportunity to get some expert opinion on it. I do not want to imply that credit ratings are a bad thing; simply, they are no more reliable than the entities that give them, and those entities come under their own pressures and face their own incentives. It is no particular guarantee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe third point I want to make is to back up the comments made by my colleague Dr Lockwood Smith, and that is to do with the ability of the Minister to give a direction to the bank. As far as I know\u2014the Minister might be able to correct me\u2014the legislation has not permitted that kind of thing in the past. Has it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274cefa47767e4b8eba464ef3c57eb45b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: No, because this is much more around the prudential supervision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12d8bad44bc448c85d77cdb4e0de430\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is around the prudential supervision. Of course, we need to understand just what the Government might have in mind as the kind of direction the Minister could give. That is in the context of a concern that raised itself about 12 months ago, I think, here in New Zealand around the role of the Reserve Bank. It is my understanding that it is relatively unusual\u2014not unprecedented, but relatively unusual\u2014to have the prudential supervision and the operation of monetary policy in the same entity, as the Reserve Bank does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn a small country it is probably what is done and what one would expect, but it means that there need to be very clear understandings about how the two might interact. Those understandings\u2014at least in my own mind, small as it may be\u2014were blurred somewhat when the Governor of the Reserve Bank, I think earlier this year or late last year, gave the impression, at least, that he was able to connect the two. That impression may have been created by the amount of commentary telling him he should, which was the idea that he should use the asset ratios that are designed for prudential purposes as an additional tool for making monetary policy more effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI do not think he did in the end, and if it was hinted at, then I do not think it would have made much difference in any case. But I think it should be quite clear that the two functions are separate and that the prudential supervision regime is there for the purposes of the security of the financial system\u2014that is its unqualified objective. The conduct of monetary policy should be different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo if a question were raised about the ability of the Minister to give direction, it would be as to whether, with the completely understandable pressures that come on a Minister such as the Minister of Finance, he or she might be tempted to use that power in some way that would assist political objectives rather than economic objectives. I would hope that in the select committee we will hear a compelling case for that particular amendment. If it is not compelling, then it may not be worth taking the risk of creating any kind of confusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAfter reading through the regulatory impact statement I think the Government has actually made a few wise choices there. The statement sets out a number of alternative options\u2014for instance, to do with minimum capital. It looks to me that it has chosen the right option there. The other one is restrictions on lending to related parties. It would be easy to be panicked by the behaviour of some of the finance companies into having a strict and inflexible regime around restriction on lending to related parties. From what I can see, the Government has chosen the option that is probably the most flexible and gives people the chance to make their own choices and face their own risks. I hope those aspects of the bill, which appear to have the agreement of most of the people who have been consulted, will stay intact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI suppose the final point is that this is probably about the best that Parliament can do to deal with the distress of all those people who have lost money in finance company collapses. There never has been an easy option, as the Minister of Finance has pointed out, to help people recover their money after they took their own risks. But this is a genuine attempt by Parliament to ensure that in the future there is more transparency and some greater degree of security, particularly for people who regard these institutions as more secure. Now, they happen to be wrong, but this bill will give some body and content to the sense that if someone is advertising in the market as a financial institution and is taking deposits, then that person has met some minimum requirements that did not exist before. We will support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca3050a1c70142c781ed2f57e631a82f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca3050a1c70142c781ed2f57e631a82f\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First members support the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3), and do so because we think the bill is long overdue. We understand absolutely that the risk in investing can never be removed totally, but we have been far too lax in this regard. It is timely that at least some attempt is made to bring some surety to investing and that there are, shall we say, some messages from the Government of what is and is not reasonable risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is all very well for financially literate people\u2014as many in this House are\u2014to say that one should not be investing in those sorts of investments, but people who are out there working hard in other occupations are not always aware of the risks. If they were going to be moneylenders, they would involve themselves. If they were going to be bankers, they would involve themselves. But they are not, and, unfortunately, it is often the innocents, who are busy doing their daily work and who expect their advisers and the people who help them with their investments to be halfway honest, who too often take advice without checking it or even going further than one adviser, when it comes to taking advice on investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis bill attempts, in some way, to redress that situation. New Zealand First absolutely applauds the bill and says it is long overdue. Now, it is long overdue for us to go home, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I will stop right there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022d42a02a2d09b44a085058913db9c70dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d42a02a2d09b44a085058913db9c70dd\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am much inspired by the final comment of Mr Woolerton. I will try to keep this mercifully brief, with just a few observations. In supporting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253eb53212fe74ecabfeb4a356e57f469\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: I was trying to set a precedent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dafcf3590ac4a9aa0e02e9a84ccb769\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, and we are happy to follow that, I can assure the member\u2014on occasions, at least. When it comes to anything to do with the Reserve Bank, the thought that I\u2014and no doubt many people\u2014have in mind is just what a vital institution a well-functioning, independent reserve or central bank is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI recall the legendary Australian Secretary to the Treasury John Stone, whom I knew in a certain sense when I lived in Canberra in the late 1970s. He was the author of the \u201CStone Age\u201D in terms of Australian economic literature and made the point that many a prince, many a country, and many an empire has fallen because they believe that sound money and sound financial institutions are the matter of interest only to dry-as-dust financial people. Thinking about the many pressures that might bring down Robert Mugabe, I suspect that hyperinflation is a better bet than external political pressure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have a very good financial system but it is not perfect. We always have to cope with the tendency towards financial disintermediation. If one sets in place any regulatory framework, one puts in place at the same time, unintentionally, a set of incentives to create new institutions and to find new ways around the regulatory framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI fully accept the Minister\u2019s statement that the political origins of this bill predate the latest crisis amongst our finance companies, consequent upon the collapse of the subprime markets around the world. It is just a never-ending fight that goes on once every 5 or 10 years between regulators, people, and the marketplace. We are dealing with that all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EMr English was absolutely right to say that one can never eliminate risk. Any attempt to do so actually just transfers the risk to the taxpayer. That is what the literature about moral hazard is essentially all about. I remember reading years ago about one of the senior Bank for International Settlements figures. When asked by a banker who was in serious trouble to define just how far the bank would go towards bailing him out, he replied: \u201CI will discuss that with your successor.\u201D There is a limit to which any regulatory framework can deal with risk. Risk is an essential part of the framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill going to the select committee. We have a number of questions. I am intrigued to understand a little more of what I call the \u201Cpeashooter\u201D provisions. That is a reference to The Economist\u2019s description of the first intervention in foreign exchange markets in 20 years by the Reserve Bank. I do not think it is a major issue, but I want to understand better, along with my colleagues, precisely where the lines are in terms of ministerial direction, for the reasons I think Mr English was suggesting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn due course, the Reserve Bank will sell those holdings, if it has not done so in complete form already. It will tell us that it has made a marvellous profit. I suggest that that would not necessarily prove that it was a good intervention, any more than if Dr Cullen took along $100 to Sky City on Friday night and made $120. That would not prove that he should be there as a professional gambler. These are some of the questions we have in our mind that we would like to explore at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn terms of the new disciplines foreshadowed for non-bank deposit takers, again I see no particular purpose in repeating the main provisions of the bill. They have been discussed by a number of speakers. We start from the basis that we have a sound system. That system has now been subjected, essentially, to two international crises. One of these occurred in late 1997 and spread into 1998. It was rather erroneously called the Asian economic crisis. I say \u201Cerroneously\u201D because although it started with the Thai baht, the contagion process reached Russia and Brazil before, finally, stellar work by Rubin and other major players in the international finance system managed to hold the thing in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ENew Zealand performed pretty well, although it did have major implications at the time for, first, our exchange rate and, second, the final, frankly overdue, junking of the\u2014I have forgotten the technical term of the targeting system used at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225442605d632145068d5114a761aa8eee\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: MCI.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb1f3e2178348fbaf8a66551899f8ee\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right; the monetary conditions index. We got our exchange rate depreciation through the back door, because the international financial markets basically misread New Zealand\u2019s dependence on Asian markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad74c3b8c33f41edbcebbfb901f6a97d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: MCI.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223504cc0907da4b84922caa2a84490739\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe will obviously still have risk in the system no matter what happens to this bill when it has been processed professionally through the select committee. The tragedy is that it is not just in respect of electoral finance that the law of common sense does not apply. There is a rather nasty phrase that we all know: \u201CThere is nothing faster parted than a fool from his or her money.\u201D It is a very cynical phrase but, unfortunately, we cannot legislate for common sense. All we can do\u2014and this is the purpose of the bill, quite clearly\u2014is set up a framework for better prudential controls of this currently poorly regulated sector, though it is, of course, regulated to a certain extent; provide better information and better public disclosure; and hold the directors and management to account. I am happy to participate in a positive way, and the National Party will be supporting this legislation at its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8a14db58dcd432d82b22235a32dbc66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8a14db58dcd432d82b22235a32dbc66\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare. In July this year the Waitakere Wellbeing Summit held a hui at the Kelston Community Centre to consider a simple question: do all families in Waitakere have enough to live on? It found that 19 percent of people living in Waitakere\u2014some 27,000 people\u2014are living on low incomes. But even amongst the poor it noted disparities. Although it found that some 15 percent of P\u0101keh\u0101 were categorised as low-income earners, for M\u0101ori that figure rose dramatically, to 25 percent, and it rose even higher, to 27 percent, for Pasifika, and, surprisingly, to 32 percent for Asians. The focus of the hui was to think of ways to help families who are in a state of multiple disadvantage and who, therefore, are at the greatest risk of extreme hardship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWell, we know all about the impacts of the current financial situation on citizens here in Aotearoa. I remind the House today that the level of household debt in the last 7 years has rocketed by a massive 73.6 percent. Consumer debt is growing larger by the day, the consumer price index has increased by 1.8 percent, house prices have not just gone through the roof but settled above the cloud layer, and prices for basic foodstuffs have shot up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe costs of getting finance are ever increasing, and, to no one\u2019s great surprise, dodgy finance companies, which are playing fast and loose with everybody else\u2019s money, are going belly up as well. Over the last 18 months, in fact, 12 such companies have collapsed, thus creating crisis and chaos for more than 50,000 investors and costing $1.3 billion in debenture deposits. To come back to that hui in Waitakere, I note that one of the recommendations was to regulate lending institutions and lending rates, particularly in the non-bank financial institution sector\u2014retail money lenders and loan sharks. There is that word again; it is a favourite of my whanaunga Dover Samuels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis bill is supposed to introduce changes so that deposit takers, including non-bank deposit takers like finance companies, building societies, and credit unions, will have to take greater care of the finances of their investors by getting a credit rating from an approved rating agency. I cannot help but see the irony in the latest finance company to bite the dust, Capital \u002B Merchant Finance, which went bust under the slogan \u201CInvest with care\u201D\u2014not that the 7,000 investors who are owed about $190 million have much to laugh about. Certainly, these 7,000 investors thought they were investing with care by putting their hard-earned cash into the country\u2019s 13th largest finance company, which had a high profile through its sponsoring of Television One\u2019s news, until it all went haywire last week, along with the Christmas plans of 7,000 households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party supports the movement that this bill makes to establish regulations for deposit takers. We support the maintenance of minimum capital levels and capital ratios, limiting exposure, and maintaining risk management approaches in line with good corporate governance standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe McDouall Stuart 2007 report on the New Zealand finance company sector, Flow and Ebb, set out a clear context for the volatility that has affected finance companies over the last 18 months. When we consider that this is a sector with more than $10 billion of investor money, we see that it makes sense for Parliament to try to minimise financial collapse. Of course, when we consider that this sector has more than $10 billion of investor money, we see that it also makes sense for Parliament to express concern about the impact of such volatility on wh\u0101nau, on the economy, and on general well-being, and to do all that it can to ensure that care is taken in providing for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of talk around the easy cash market about the impacts of financial collapse on mum and dad investors, so I thought I would tease out that mum and dad concept a bit more. It occurred to me that one of the greatest investments any parents can make for their descendants is in reviewing their financial, emotional, genealogical, and physical circumstances when it comes time for them to get married.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBack in the old days, partnerships forged through marriage were regarded with enormous significance. Peace and the settling of grievances, the strengthening of whakapaka, political solutions, and land rights were all factors that might be considered by elders in pledging their descendants to another hap\u016B or even another iwi. Wh\u0101nau would look into the other party\u2019s background, hold negotiations, and debate with the wh\u0101nau of the other party, so that when the deal was finalised everyone would be aware of the legacy being created by the union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn much the same way, a wh\u0101nau considering making financial investments should also carry out the same kind of thorough investigation and analysis in order to guarantee the future health of their investment. But to do that, investors need to have better information from which to make strong decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EToo many investors, M\u0101ori included, invest their savings in finance companies without realising the risk they are exposed to due to the fact that the finance companies do not always have the proper rules and standards in place to safeguard their investors properly. The common misconception is that standards are in place and that proper monitoring has occurred, but that is not so. As a result people, many on low to modest incomes, have lost their hard-earned savings. We can blame individuals for not doing their homework, but often we find that some people are simply being pushed to live beyond their means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt is also a matter of knowing whether the claims made by financial advisers actually stack up, like companies saying that they are underwritten when they are not; that they are guaranteed by Lloyd\u2019s of London when they are not; or that investors will get their principal back even if the company collapses, which, of course, they do not. The real test is not so much about whether investments are safe. All investments carry a measure of risk, and the greater the promise the greater the risk. The test is whether the investing public can believe that the rules of the game are fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis is where recent research from Massey University warns us that legislation like this is needed, quick smart. Dr Chris Malone from Massey\u2019s college of business says that a failure to quell investors\u2019 fears and help remaining financial institutions survive could lead to negative impacts on other sectors, and that restoring investor confidence is critical to cutting the circuit of panic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo the M\u0101ori Party welcomes this proposal for a sound and efficient financial system and for putting measures in place to avoid significant damage to that system in the event of financial company failure. Just as our t\u016Bpuna did all the homework necessary to ensure a good marriage, so too should we carry over those same principles to ensure that our own Reserve Bank can effectively protect the New Zealand financial system. The M\u0101ori Party will support this bill at its first reading. Kia ora, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc659b4c8b6b4ce9aa732b540d2a5949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc659b4c8b6b4ce9aa732b540d2a5949\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party rises to support the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) going to the select committee. We listened most carefully to Mr Groser\u2019s remarks, and concur with him that there is a difficulty when people invest money. Particularly where they are getting high returns, they have to be accepting of the risk. I think the Government fully understands that. The regulation around securities is no easy matter, because it is very easy to find risk being shifted from the entrepreneurs on to the taxpayer. The select committee will need to study this legislation most carefully. But ACT certainly supports the bill being referred for consideration. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bf3368688eb468493adfa23179fd6d3\u0022\u003EPublic Health Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222073b265d33043afa80d0398983af43a\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002273baab68ce04443f82ee2ad788ab561e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273baab68ce04443f82ee2ad788ab561e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: I move, That the Public Health Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Health Committee for consideration and that the committee present its final report on or before 24 June 2008. The proposed Public Health Bill will update New Zealand\u2019s currently fragmented and very outdated legislation for public health and become the primary health statute. It will replace the Health Act of 1956 and the Tuberculosis Act of 1948. In fact that Act will be almost 60 years old at the passing of this bill. This bill is designed to improve, promote, and protect public health\u2014truly a primary health measure. It sets out specific responsibilities for the identification and management of risks to public health, in particular those arising from communicable diseases\u2014diseases that can be spread from person to person, such as tuberculosis, HIV and AIDS, and non-communicable diseases, such as diabetes and cancer, and also protections to the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EA particular new feature of the bill is that it provides for an all-risks approach\u2014that is, an approach that allows for comprehensive management of all significant and emergent threats to public health. The Public Health Bill is an extensive piece of legislation, covering many facets of health. The bill will continue the traditional public health focus that we all know on communicable disease control and on environmental health issues, such as water quality, food safety, and drinking-water monitoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe bill will also expand on health emergency provisions in the Health Act, which currently deal only with epidemics of communicable diseases, to all actual, or even potential, public health emergencies, irrespective of the cause. We have all realised the need for an all-of-Government response to potential pandemics, and this bill takes account of changes in international travel patterns and threats, such as SARS and pandemic influenza, to enable the range of risks to public health to be managed at New Zealand\u2019s own borders. New Zealand can be congratulated on its planning approach. The bill includes new provisions aimed at reducing risks of non-communicable diseases, which include the power to issue guidelines and to make regulations. There are several reasons why this new public health legislation is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EPublic health legislation has traditionally focused on controlling infectious disease and on ensuring a safe environment\u2014for example, by preventing overcrowding in houses or providing for sewerage systems. The bill continues that focus, because it is important, but modernises and updates approaches and terminology to reflect the 21st century. In particular, the bill reflects that human rights and the notion of individual freedoms have advanced significantly since the Health Act was enacted some 60 years ago. The bill ensures that public health powers are exercised within a human rights framework. This means that individuals are informed about the applicable law, time frames are given, and the right to appeal is explicit. The bill balances the rights of the individual against those of the public interest to be protected from diseases or other threats to public health\u2014a very important aspect. Where individual rights are limited in the public interest, the bill ensures that safeguards are provided\u2014also a very important aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe current Health Act tends to provide an all-or-nothing approach for managing risk. For example, in relation to communicable disease, the only power currently available is to detain a person with a communicable disease, which is a very old-fashioned approach. In contrast, the bill provides that public health risks are managed with responses that are commensurate in proportion to the risk. Throughout the bill, tiered options, or pick-and-mix menus, are provided depending on the disease confronted, and that is very important. Further action must be proportionate to the risk. The bill provides that the least restrictive option and alternative must be applied when managing health risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAnother reason we need this new public health legislation is that our current legislation focuses on issues that were only current 50 years ago. Fifty years ago our public health issues were communicable diseases, such as tuberculosis and typhoid, and environmental health. Issues such as a lack of sewerage and non-sanitary buildings are a picture of long ago. Although communicable disease and environmental health are still important issues, we now face other threats to public health. For example, when the Health Act was drafted ships were the predominant mode of international travel. Now most people fly between countries, making the spread of conditions that are a very serious risk to public health so much easier. These changes in international patterns, and new threats such as SARS and the pandemic influenza mean that we need to be able to manage all kinds of risks at our borders. The bill updates and clarifies provisions to protect our borders, and expands the current emergency provisions that deal only with disease epidemics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EHeart disease and cancer are now the two leading causes of death in New Zealand, as well as being significant drivers of health expenditure. In order to reflect the significant impact that non-communicable conditions have on death and ill health in New Zealand, the bill has new provisions for dealing with non-communicable disease risk factors. Health has never been about hospitals and surgical volumes alone. The bill provides for the Director-General of Health to issue non-binding codes of practice or guidelines about non-communicable disease risk factors. It also provides the option of making regulations to reduce, or to assist in reducing, risk factors associated with communicable diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAs indicated, the Public Health Bill covers a wide range of public health issues, and is one of the foundation pieces of legislation that supports a modern health system. The Health Act has served us well for 50 years, but it is time that it is replaced with modern legislation. The Public Health Bill will enable New Zealand to be more effectively protected from all risks to public health. I am very aware of the high level of interest from public health officers, medical officers of health, and practitioners, in the introduction of this bill tonight. I commend the Public Health Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022103bbd45da414c73a2c016e859a17b60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022103bbd45da414c73a2c016e859a17b60\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The public will be wondering why Parliament is sitting under urgency to introduce legislation that talks about protecting our country from cholera, yellow fever, and the plague. I am reliably informed that the arrival of these diseases to our shores is not imminent, but new public health issues are asserting themselves in this new century. Severe acute respiratory syndrome, bird flu, obesity, and diabetes present actual or potential challenges to New Zealand\u2019s public health. The updating of the Public Health Act is overdue, and much of this bill represents improvement on the 1956 legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe bill moves beyond dealing with the prevention, monitoring, and control of communicable diseases such as TB and cholera. For the first time, it is proposed that public health laws will include measures to deal with non-communicable diseases like obesity and diabetes. This is a significant step, underplayed by the Minister. The National Party has considerable concerns about this proposal. In particular, we question the so-called voluntary codes, and the sweeping powers to regulate just about everything we do, that are hidden in clause 374. Parts of this bill smack of nanny State gone too far. Communities and individuals want to be empowered to make choices to achieve their goals. New Zealanders do not want to be told what to do by some central agency, and given no support other than to follow orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are fed up with this Labour Government interfering in their lives, and parts of this bill will hand control of many of our choices to the Wellington bureaucracy. Let me explain National\u2019s concerns. The first is the issue of voluntary codes\u2014the so-called voluntary codes. Clause 81(1) grants the Government the power to issue a code of practice or guidelines to a sector of a particular activity that the sector undertakes, where the Government believes \u201Cthat the sector can reduce, or assist in reducing, a risk factor associated with, or related to, an activity. Clause 83 spells out what a code can provide. It includes, under subclause (2)(d), \u201Cthe accessibility of specified goods, substances, or services to members of the public or to sections of the public, in particular, to minors:\u201D; and under subclause(2)(e), \u201Cthe ways in which specified goods, substances, or services are advertised, sponsored, or marketed (whether directly or indirectly):\u201D. The Government also wants codes for the provision, under subclause (2)(f), of \u201Cthe information to be given to consumers of specified goods, substances, or services, whether as part of any advertising, sponsorship, or marketing or as part of any packaging or labelling of goods or substances.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThese are wide-reaching provisions. Although the ministry must consult with industry representatives prior to issuing a code, the final decision will rest with the ministry. Further, the Ministry of Health will have to report in 3 years on the effectiveness of these so-called voluntary codes, and no doubt that will lead to enforceable codes. Our question to the Government asks: if these codes are voluntary and not legally enforceable, why are they included in the law? If these codes are to be voluntary and are not to be legally enforceable, why are they included in the bill? If this Government truly had no secret agenda, then voluntary codes would be just that\u2014voluntary, and agreed cooperatively. Instead, we have a Trojan Horse where voluntary codes can, on the signature of a Minister, become compulsory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ESecondly, our concerns focus on clause 374, and on paragraph (x) in particular. This clause completely undermines the Government\u2019s argument that there are no coercive powers for its food police. This clause allows untold regulation in the name of dealing with non-communicable diseases such as obesity and diabetes. Clause 374(x) states that the Government may regulate in any way for the purpose of \u201Creducing, or assisting in reducing, risk factors \u2026 associated with, or related to, non-communicable diseases:\u201D. A \u201Crisk factor\u201D is further defined in clause 79 as \u201Ca thing or substance that, on its own or together with other things or substances or conditions, may, \u2026 give rise to, or increase the incidence of, non-communicable diseases \u2026 in the general population or in communities \u2026\u201D. Put together, that means that the Government has an unfettered ability to reduce any risk factors associated with any non-communicable disease. It has carte blanche to deal with that. This clause gives the Government breathtaking powers to regulate what we eat, what we see, and what we choose. For example, this clause will allow the Government to regulate what appears where on supermarket shelves. This clause will allow the Government to restrict the sale of fish and chips to adults only or to children accompanied by adults. This clause will allow rules being enforced in school tuck shops to be enforced in workplaces and homes throughout the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef1fc818d282496a88861dcb04908562\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d better hurry; this is under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c00bea8bcba49f1a6fd0790d2016e0f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is being done under urgency, but what is worse is that this provision, this sweeping regulatory provision, warranted fewer than seven or eight words in the Minister\u2019s introductory speech. We also draw the House\u2019s attention to clause 374(r), which allows the Government to halt at the border any products that it sees contributing to non-communicable diseases. Surely a Government must be able to achieve its goals for public health without telling its people how to live their lives or feed their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Government tells us that industry is working very cooperatively with it. The Government claims great progress. If that is true, then these provisions are at best unnecessary or at worst Draconian. There is no doubt that obesity and diabetes are major challenges for our people and our health system. As National states in its health discussion document, encouraging individuals and members of at-risk communities to adopt healthier lifestyles can make a big difference. Besides increasing awareness about health issues, promotion should identify and target the sociocultural aspects of human behaviour. Our cultural hard drive has to alter so that healthy choices are preferred. A successful long-term approach will provide people with the education, skills, and desire to make healthy dietary and lifestyle choices, and stick to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EPeople make personal decisions every day that affect their health and well-being\u2014exercising, drinking, smoking, and eating. Although these choices may be shaped by public health messages and cultural experience, they are still choices that individuals are responsible for. The Government should be providing the information and support that people need to make healthy choices, instead of making those choices for them. Surely we must have a country that can achieve its goals for public health without telling its people how they have to live their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENational will support the passage of this bill to a select committee, but we make it very clear to the Government and the Ministry of Health that we are not prepared to countenance the unfettered regulatory power that this bill proposes to give central government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u002253f14283c3504339bde45a125cf9386a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f14283c3504339bde45a125cf9386a\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Public Health Bill. The Public Health Bill is fundamental health legislation. It is extensive and it covers many areas of public health. The bill is designed to improve, promote, and protect public health. It includes provisions designed to manage actual and potential risks to public health, to give clear responsibilities and accountabilities, to ensure monitoring and reporting of public health risks, to give explicit emergency powers, and to avoid undue infringement of human rights and privacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EA main feature of the bill is that it sets out the purpose, powers, functions, and duties of the various key players, including the Minister of Health, the Director-General of Health, the Director of Public Health, the district health boards, and the territorial authorities and statutory officers\u2014namely, medical officers of health, health protection officers, and environmental health officers. The bill organises the key players into three levels of operation: locally, through statutory officers; regionally, through district health boards and territorial authorities; and nationally, through the Minister of Health, the Director-General of Health, and the Director of Public Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe bill contains provisions regarding health information, notification, and cervical screening. The health information provisions largely reproduce the Health Act, which defines and provides the routine information flows of personal health information, updates existing audit provisions, and provides for notification of specified conditions. Notification provisions include, for example, a duty on medical practitioners in laboratories to report conditions such as typhoid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EAs will be mentioned in further detail in other speeches, the bill contains provisions relating to non-communicable disease risk factors. These provisions provide principles and non-binding codes for reducing non-communicable disease risk factors\u2014for example, through improved nutrition\u2014as well as legislate for a parliamentary report back on possible further legislative measures to address non-communicable disease risk factors. The bill also provides the option of making regulations to reduce, or assist in reducing, risk factors associated with non-communicable diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe bill contains provisions to manage conditions posing a health risk. Communicable conditions such as HIV, hepatitis, and tuberculosis pose risks of infection to others unless appropriate steps are taken to prevent or minimise such risks. The current Health Act simply provides for the detection of people with notifiable conditions through the decision of the medical officer of health, with no time periods or appeal provisions specified other than that the person may be held until he or she is no longer infectious. In contrast, this bill aims to build on existing provisions in the Health Act and the Tuberculosis Act, within a human rights framework that includes explicit time periods and appeal provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe bill also aims to provide a range of options\u2014rather than only the detention option in the Health Act\u2014for preventing the spread of communicable conditions that pose a risk to public health. Contact tracing involves identifying and seeking people who have been in contact with a person who has a communicable disease, such as tuberculosis, in order to prevent the further spread of the disease. The bill includes provisions that enable medical officers and medical health practitioners to undertake such contact tracing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003ELocal government already has an extensive public health role under the Health Act, principally in relation to environmental health\u2014in other words, public health matters related to the physical environment, such as sewerage. The bill largely reproduces the Health Act functions of territorial authorities in relation to environmental health, with minor modifications to update and modernise the language. The bill introduces a new framework to regulate activities that may pose a public health risk. Industries that are regulated under public health provisions, such as camping grounds and hairdressers, will continue to be regulated in the same way as they are now. At some point in the future, and with consultation, the regulations will be revised to reflect the new framework, and consideration may be given in the future to whether other activities that pose a risk to public health should be regulated under the framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe bill implements an all-risks approach to emergencies by providing special powers that can be used to manage an actual or imminent public health emergency, irrespective of cause. This means infectious diseases, as well as emergencies arising from physical, chemical, or radiological factors. The border health protection provisions aim to prevent, reduce, or eliminate the spread of risk to public health at the border. They relate in particular to people and craft coming into or leaving New Zealand, as possible sources of infection. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002295e9b3da7be24c91afec87c4eb518293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295e9b3da7be24c91afec87c4eb518293\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Public Health Bill 2007 along with my colleagues. We will be supporting this bill going to the select committee, but as has been outlined by the Hon Tony Ryall it is with some misgivings. We have considered this bill and have looked into the bill and have many, many questions. The first of those questions must be why this bill is being considered under urgency. What exactly, after 50 years, requires it to be considered this year rather than next February? However, putting that aside, we will be supporting the bill as it passes, as we expect it will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThis bill will head in two directions in particular. The first direction is reviewing the current legislation\u2014the public health legislation\u2014and we know that it is woefully outdated. The second direction is looking at the promotion of public health, and that is where we get into, shall we call it, uncharted territory. That latter direction gives me and my colleagues some cause for concern. It is a little bit like the question, how long is a piece of string? We are very unclear, in reading this bill and in looking at it, just exactly what some of the provisions will encompass and what they will mean in the long run. I think that my colleague the Hon Tony Ryall hit the nail on the head when he said that when we take codes and, with the stroke of the Minister\u2019s pen, put them into legislation, then we are providing a very powerful, powerful thing for the Minister to do. When we are talking about non-communicable diseases, then I can tell members that we have some cause for concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe purpose is all-encompassing and there is no doubt that when it comes to some aspects of that woeful, and now inadequate, 1956 Health Act, there needs to be an all-encompassing update of the legislation. But there are examples of the sorts of things that one would expect in a public health bill, such as the declaration of a health emergency, the assessment of the risks to public health, and the appointments of health protection officers or the medical officer of health that one might expect would be in the bill. Health information is one aspect that is covered in the newer parts of the bill. The access that health professionals will have to information is, I think, very topical right now, and it will be very interesting to get a very good picture within the select committee of how New Zealanders see that part of the bill working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EOf concern to us are the non-communicable disease provisions within the bill, which relate to diseases such as cancer, cardiovascular disease, and diabetes. There are some very broad and woolly statements in the bill. I will just explain to members what I mean by that and give the examples of these quite broad and woolly statements. The Director-General of Health, in exercising his or her functions, must take into account the importance of improving and enhancing the health of communities by addressing broad determinants of health, including risks factors. That is a very wide set of considerations. He or she must manage or eliminate risk factors by involving communities, sectors, and Government agencies. That is all of us. He or she must consider the well-being and mutual interdependence of families and their communities, including wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, promoting, maintaining, and enhancing the health status of the general population and communities. That is a pretty broad statement again. Lastly, he or she must also implement public health objectives through coordinated action. There is not much that cannot be covered by this bill, in other words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is here that we come to the codes of practice and guidelines, and, as has been outlined by the Hon Tony Ryall, the bill authorises the Director-General to issue those codes of practice or guidelines to a sector on a particular activity. That is all about, as has been outlined by the Hon Steve Chadwick, an all-risks approach. We have already seen an all-risks approach in the Health Committee quite recently. It was in relation to drinking water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe last thing I will outline in my discussion on this bill tonight is in relation to the territorial local authorities and their particular responsibilities under this bill, because I have some concerns. The bill sets out the general powers and duties of territorial local authorities in respect of public health, and they already have some responsibilities in this area. It talks about the necessity for them to control nuisances. I was quite perplexed by the word \u201Cnuisance\u201D and I wondered what this meant. Clause 166(2) states: \u201CA nuisance may, without limitation, arise from or be constituted by any 1 or more of the following:\u201D\u2014and I was not concerned about these\u2014\u201C(a) buildings or structures: (b) land, air, water, or land covered by water: (c) animals, insects, or birds: (d) refuse or accumulations of material: (e) noise or vibrations: (f) emissions or discharge.\u201D But then it got a bit trickier. Clause 166(3) states: \u201CIn particular, a nuisance may arise from or be constituted by any 1 or more of the following:\u201D Now, there are paragraphs (a) through to (f) here, but I will not take the time over them all. I just want to tell members that amongst them are \u201C(d) dirt or odour: (e) animal carcasses: (f) composting.\u201D\u2014they constitute nuisances. Under this bill a territorial local authority is required to regularly patrol or go looking for those particular nuisances. I just wonder whether they will be coming past my section, looking to see whether I am doing any composting, or whether there is any dirt or odour. I wonder whether they will notice, as I did, that there is a dead hedgehog down the back of my section that smells somewhat at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt may seem like I am being overly light about this particular bill, but I am saying that the select committee members will need to be very careful when we examine the bill, when we call for submissions, and when we hear those submissions, that we hear whether this bill goes too far. I believe there is a possibility that it will be too encompassing\u2014that it will give too many powers to the Director-General and, by the stroke of a pen, to the Minister. Therefore the National members of the select committee will be very diligently listening to the people of New Zealand as they submit on this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022234ad41b30bb4cb9bb75fdf061ae69fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022234ad41b30bb4cb9bb75fdf061ae69fa\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to support the Public Health Bill going to a select committee. I must admit that when I heard one of the previous speeches I actually wondered whether I had a copy of the same bill as that particular speaker. I have checked, and I definitely have the same bill, but my interpretation is quite different in many ways from that of the member. So I can see we will have a very interesting debate at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis bill is not part of a conspiracy; it more than likely should have been completed a long time ago. It was not just deliberately put through under urgency in any conspiracy mode. I believe that the first reading is being completed at this particular time so that the select committee can get to work on the bill as soon as possible, after the adjournment. It is timely to update this legislation; it has not been done for some time. It is long overdue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EAs other speakers have said, this legislation will replace the Health Act of 1956 and the Tuberculosis Act of 1948. By my calculations the Health Act is over 50 years old, and many aspects of life have actually changed quite markedly since its introduction. The Act now does not reflect contemporary public health issues or contemporary human rights and values.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis is important legislation, and the public of New Zealand and those people involved in the health area will be very keen to have some input into this bill. It is a pretty hefty piece of legislation\u2014there are many, many pages there\u2014and it covers aspects of health from the roles and responsibilities of various officials in the health system through to health information. It also covers reporting in cervical screening\u2014and I must say that was an area I thought was rather settled now\u2014management of conditions posing health risks, through to emergencies and border health. There is a high level of accountability within this particular bill. I was very interested to read that territorial authorities have an extensive role\u2014principally in relation to environmental health, under which, of course, comes food and drinking water. The bill is an extensive update and, hopefully, it will have a similar life to that of the previous legislation. So it needs to be right. We need to make sure during the select committee process that we have everything absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis legislation is important because it will become New Zealand\u2019s primary public health statute. Fifty years ago, immunisation for many diseases did not exist. Some diseases that are relatively common today were previously unknown\u2014and here we can talk about cancer and heart disease. The 1956 Act was relatively silent on non-communicable diseases. We all know that one of those diseases is obesity, and closely related to that is diabetes. Communicable disease control includes the controls necessary for HIV and AIDS, which were diseases that were not even identified in the original legislation. Today we have to take account of changes in international travel and of threats such as severe acute respiratory syndrome and bird flu, which are best identified at the border rather than having some sort of reactive response in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe also have to be concerned about some of the diseases that some immigrants are bringing into this country, and here we are particularly referring to tuberculosis. We have to be aware that the strain of TB that is now prevalent in New Zealand today is resistant to today\u2019s drugs and can be only managed rather than cured, and that in itself is quite a concern to us. I think it would be fair to say that most New Zealanders believed that New Zealand was on top of all Third World diseases, but, unfortunately, the reality is that we are not. It is a fact that all of the guilty parties that are right here in this Parliament, and that have directed comments about xenophobia in New Zealand First, have, at the same time, opened the public purse to cure the Third World diseases that have been brought in\u2014and I can see some heads nodding in agreement. We are told that there is a large number of TB cases in Auckland hospitals; in fact, some wards are dedicated entirely to TB, a disease that most New Zealanders believed had been totally eliminated here in New Zealand. So risks to public health do need to be managed, and managed very carefully. In New Zealand First we believe in the precautionary principle and we think it is of paramount importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI was very interested to read in the explanatory note of the bill that the risk management approach will be paramount in this bill, and, of course, we could see that in the epidemic preparedness legislation that we passed earlier in the year. The bill notes that this approach is going to operate locally through the district health boards and nationally through the Minister and other high-level ministerial roles. However, the last thing that most New Zealanders would want to see\u2014and I know National members would agree with me, in this particular instance\u2014is the construction of 21 different plans in 21 different locations. We accept that there can be some regional variations, but not to any great extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand First we were quite interested, too, in the contact-tracing requirements. It is absolutely essential to have these provisions in place in order to identify and seek people who have been in contact with a person with a notifiable condition, to prevent the further spread of that condition, and, of course, to offer treatment. We had that situation earlier in the year in respect of the Zimbabwean refugees and AIDS. We actually believed that this would have been the current practice, but if it has not been legislated for, then it has to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe were very interested to read in the bill that the following activities are regulated by the Health Act, and that they will continue to be regulated under their current regulations in the bill. It is a pretty diverse list, from camp grounds, to hairdressing, to burials and funeral directors, to needle and syringe exchange programmes, to the manufacture, import, and assembly of microwave ovens, and to the business use of plastic wrapping. We understand that after this bill is enacted, these regulations will be reviewed under the new framework that is being provided in the bill. We also understand that no additional activities are included in the bill, but any that might be in the future\u2014for example, tattooing\u2014will be included only after a consultation practice. We would also have liked to see sun beds and sunscreen included in the consultation process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say this is a very interesting bill with many different parts that will no doubt be very carefully examined by all of the members on the select committee. I must say we all expect the Government to be adequately prepared for any public health crisis, and this is an attempt to update this particular legislation and to be prepared. New Zealand First supports this legislation, and we look forward to receiving submissions from all of those parties that are going to be affected by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00220c6ada90ba6e45cc860d21e2c98fe255\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c6ada90ba6e45cc860d21e2c98fe255\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It seems that there will be a consensus of support right across the House on this Public Health Bill. The Greens are delighted that this is so, even though it is an incredibly complex bill of 259 pages dealing with all sorts of minutiae, as the previous speaker said, from hairdressers and shops to microwave ovens, operating camping grounds, mortuaries, and many other details. Nevertheless, it is an important bill and we are particularly pleased that this bill, as it says in its explanatory note, is addressing non-communicable diseases and environmental health issues\u2014public health issues. It points out that the major causes of population ill health today and the major drivers of health care expenditure are those broadly categorised as non-communicable diseases such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and so forth. We are very pleased that, for the first time, this public health legislation will address these major causes of population ill health and disease in New Zealand today, although it is interesting to note, having said that, that only five slender pages out of an almost 300-page bill deal with this particular issue\u2014that is, the issue of what we loosely call non-communicable diseases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is particularly appropriate that this bill is coming before the House now, because the Health Committee has spent a year or more inquiring into the obesity and type 2 diabetes epidemics. We have heard compelling evidence over the last few years that the key threats we face in New Zealand\u2014as elsewhere, particularly in the Western World\u2014are from the epidemics of obesity, type 2 diabetes, and so forth. We were informed by experts that if we do not deal with these epidemics, these diseases will overwhelm our health system. We had many experts warning that if we do not change the eating habits of young New Zealanders, in particular, then young New Zealanders will be the first generation of children to die before their parents. We will not have a lot of money left to deal with waiting lists and other things because we will be spending all of our money trying to cope with the consequences of obesity and type 2 diabetes. That is the evidence we have heard over the last couple of years in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe reason for those epidemics is quite simply that we have created an environment in New Zealand where unhealthy foods are more heavily promoted, more available, and more accessible than healthy foods. There are overwhelming commercial pressures on our children to eat unhealthy food. The vast majority of submitters to the select committee called for changes to that environment. They said education alone simply would not work, any more than education alone worked in terms of reducing smoking in New Zealand. It is not going to work. Changing the whole environment is like turning around a supertanker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe overwhelming majority of submitters said that we needed to change the environment and that education alone would not work. They said: \u201CPlease, put in some provisions or regulatory powers to enable the Government to restrict, for example, the advertising of unhealthy foods to children and to put in some marketing restrictions.\u201D The overwhelming majority of submitters called for these provisions. So we are delighted that there is a very minor provision in the bill, which Tony Ryall referred to as that insidious paragraph (x) in clause 374. Thank goodness for paragraph (x), because that provision was what the vast majority of submitters and the majority of members of the select committee called for. Thank heaven that in 2007 in this Public Health Bill, which is supposed to be primarily dealing with non-communicable diseases\u2014the major cause of population ill health today\u2014we have one little paragraph, paragraph (x), which will allow us to look at this particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the National Party members departed from the rest of the select committee, who said: \u201CYes, this is an overwhelming problem that is going to bankrupt the nation and overwhelm our health system, and all our taxes are going to go up because we are going to have to cope with the consequences of obesity and type 2 diabetes if we do nothing, and if we do not change the environment.\u201D But the National Party said: \u201CYes, we agree with all that, but education is all we need. All we need is a little bit more education and everything will be fine.\u201D That is nonsense. It is the do-nothing approach. It is basically saying \u201CLet\u2019s do nothing. Let\u2019s allow the food industry to have absolutely unfettered powers to target our young children with unhealthy food. Let\u2019s have no restrictions on the ability of the food industry to make profits from wherever they can.\u201D Instead of being honest and saying \u201COur approach is that we do not want any restrictions on the food industry.\u201D, the National Party reframed the debate\u2014as public relations people would say\u2014and instead they said: \u201COh, we don\u2019t want nanny State. We don\u2019t want any restrictions on the advertising of unhealthy food to children, because that would be nanny State.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EPerhaps the next speaker from the National Party could explain to me whether the regulations that we have to wear seatbelts in cars are nanny State? I do not see National Party members standing up and saying they are an outrageous imposition and nanny State. We have restrictions that say we cannot sell cigarettes and alcohol to children in schools. Is that nanny State? Should that be allowed? Surely by the National Party\u2019s logic we should get in there and sell alcohol and cigarettes, because otherwise it is nanny State. It is a very clever reframing of the debate, but I think people need to know that all this is about, and what the debate will be in the select committee is whether we should allow the food industry the unfettered ability to target our children with unhealthy food, and continue the problems we have such as the obesity epidemic and type 2 diabetes. National members will say: \u201COh no, it doesn\u2019t matter if all our children are going to end up with type 2 diabetes, as long as we do not restrict the ability of the food industry to promote unhealthy food to children.\u201D [Interruption] We are delighted with paragraph (x), which I can see is going to be the major issue of contention in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHowever we do have some concerns with this bill. We are concerned with the powers in this bill that will enable schools to be closed to, or school attendance restricted for\u2014basically\u2014unvaccinated children. We think that there are significant issues here about the freedoms of people, and particularly, in this case, of unvaccinated children. We think there is a debate to be had, and we think that the vaccination groups in New Zealand will be very interested in some of the provisions in this bill. We will expect the National Party to support us strongly over these concerns. National wants maximum freedom and the minimum of intervention in our lives, so I am sure it will support us over those particular concerns. Having said that, we are very pleased with this legislation and like, I think, every other party in this House\u2014although I am not sure of ACT, but certainly, the overwhelming majority of this House\u2014will be supporting this bill. We look forward to its debate in the Health Committee and we look forward, in particular, to debating clause 374(x).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba1e8962415482c8e986421ec2bdd1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba1e8962415482c8e986421ec2bdd1d\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I say t\u0113n\u0101 koe to Mr Henare. I would like to congratulate the previous speaker on the most intelligent dissertation on this topic today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThree months ago the Business Council for Sustainable Development did a survey that showed nearly 80 percent of New Zealanders believe that the public health service has worsened over the past 5 years. That same poll predicted that on the current rate of spending on health, at $11.6 billion a year, by the year 2050 the Government could expect to be allocating more than $21 billion a year to help. In the context of that high public interest and exorbitant expenditure, two other reports were issued that brought the matter to a head. The first was a comprehensive analysis monitoring the health of New Zealand children and young people, which concluded that children with chronic conditions, long-term disabilities, mental health issues, or conditions traditionally managed in the primary care and out-patients setting, such as diabetes, epilepsy, and chronic renal failure, were not being adequately captured by routine hospital or mortality data. That report also said that traditional data failed to capture issues of cultural identity or the role this played in health and well-being. Following on from these conclusions, Te Roopu Rangahau Hauora a Eru P\u014Dmare tabled another report from their series, Hauora: M\u0101ori Standards of Health IV\u2014A study of the years 2000-2005. As Dr Papaarangi Reid and Bridget Robson explained very clearly in the very first sentence of their report: \u201CM\u0101ori have the right to monitor the Crown and to evaluate Crown action and inaction.\u201D This is a right that derives from the indigenous rights of tangata whenua enshrined in Te Tiriti o Waitangi and embodied in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo the stage is firmly set, from all perspectives, for this bill to start the process of legislative review for the effective management of public health. The explanatory note states that the bill is designed \u201Cto improve, promote, and protect public health\u201D in order to help attain \u201Coptimal and equitable health outcomes for M\u0101ori and all other population groups.\u201D A worthy purpose indeed\u2014on that statement alone the M\u0101ori Party could support this first reading of the Public Health Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo let us just see whether this bill achieves that goal. But, firstly, I want to put the statement made by Dr Reid and Bridget Robson into context. As tangata whenua our primary right to self-determination is understood in our capacity to be recognised as indigenous peoples. But it also extends to a sense of duty, of manaakitanga, to ensure the well-being of all people living in our territories. This means, logically, that M\u0101ori must monitor health, including any persistent disparities between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. Secondly, the urgency for M\u0101ori to monitor Crown performance is required by the consistent disparities in health outcomes, the ongoing exposure to determinants of ill-health, the overwhelming lack of responsiveness of the health service, and the ongoing under-representation of M\u0101ori in the health workforce. So the M\u0101ori Party shares with M\u0101ori health professionals the priority that must be given to a focus on M\u0101ori as a population group, and our collective responsibility for te \u014Dranga o t\u014D t\u0101tou wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe must care about these longstanding inequities. We must not accept normalising and tolerating such unfair and unjust deficiencies of a health system meant to operate in everyone\u2019s interests. We must care about M\u0101ori approaches and models being supported across purchasing environments. We know that the M\u0101ori health sector has had problems with the population-based funding models promulgated by district health boards and primary health organisations, because these models have insufficient resources to truly support stand-alone M\u0101ori or Pasifika primary health organisations. We know, too, that other determinants impact on wh\u0101nau ora. Poverty, income, low-paid employment, all forms of violence, educational underachievement, dealings with the criminal justice system, income support, impoverished housing conditions, and isolation and alienation from other wh\u0101nau members all impact on wh\u0101nau well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe have a major challenge in front of us. In particular, all research pathways lead to three major challenges that contribute to ethnic inequalities in health: differential access to specialist, general practitioner, and specialist-nursing services, and inadequate screening leading to slower pathways through health care; differences in the quality of care received; and differential access to determinants of health, such as the exposure to other risks like unsafe workplaces, substandard and crowded housing, and environmentally unsafe living conditions. But on top of that we have specific instances in Aotearoa linking institutional racism and interpersonal racial discrimination as a key factor accounting for much of the inequality between M\u0101ori and others. Evidence is relentlessly paraded through this House that shows that M\u0101ori receive lower levels of health services and poorer quality of service. Other evidence, including Ministry of Health analysis of the New Zealand Health Survey, confirms that discrimination may be an important cause for ethnic inequalities in health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EYet, as unbelievable as it sounds, the Ministry of Health has still not filled the vacancy that has existed for much of this year in the appointment of the Deputy Director-General Maori Health. Given the quality of the applicants, the M\u0101ori Party finds it astounding that no appointment has yet been made. Alongside that, the public health unit itself has been diluted and its focus dissipated across the ministry. It now stands under the rule of the strategy directorate, rather than maintaining specialist public health leadership in one area. The statutory requirement to carry out public health advisory functions, as set out in section 3E of the Health Act of 1956, is thus compromised by organisational impediments. It remains to be seen how this bill will achieve equitable health outcomes for M\u0101ori or, indeed, manage the risks of emergent threats to public health without having the organisational structures in place to address these inequalities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe desired change is not impossible. We have not reached the point of no return. All it would take to make a big difference would be to focus on the issues of significance to M\u0101ori, to focus on M\u0101ori development, and to guarantee a specific focus to address and eliminate inequitable health outcomes for M\u0101ori. A big part of making a difference would be to instigate the mandatory collection of ethnicity data and mandatory analysis by ethnicity at all points throughout the public health sector, including planning and management. We note, of course, the correlation with the Monitoring the Health of New Zealand Children and Young People report, which was also concerned about the paucity of data. I said before that we have not reached the point of no return, but we do not also want to be so hands-off that we drift off down a one-way street that ends up in a policy cul-de-sac, closing off all possibilities for progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt gives us huge concern that despite the upfront, stated objective of equitable health outcomes for M\u0101ori, there is nothing that specifically gives weight to that commitment. There has been no consultation with M\u0101ori. There is no commitment in the Public Health Bill to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. There is no explicit focus on inequities or M\u0101ori health development. It appears to be another case of \u201CDo what I say, not what I do.\u201D In fact, other than the purpose statement at the front of the bill, M\u0101ori seem to be completely absent from the entire bill. We are prepared to let this bill go to the select committee, as we are keen to enable M\u0101ori health collectives and professionals to have their say at the table. But we signal our strong concern, which is the unnecessary, avoidable, unfair, and unjust ethnic inequalities that continue to plague the sector. Public heath must benefit from specific focus on M\u0101ori if we ever hope to make the difference that is really needed. Kia ora, Mr Deputy Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00222b7b718c84984f56ba4a39177cb8fd73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b7b718c84984f56ba4a39177cb8fd73\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of United Future to support, along with other parties, the first reading of the Public Health Bill. I am particularly pleased to see that the House is giving this bill the opportunity to be considered by the Health Committee. It is interesting to consider that it is over 50 years since legislation was looked at, in this regard. This bill also replaces the Tuberculosis Act from around that time, and in discussing such legislation we are looking at a time in New Zealand\u2019s history when the majority of New Zealanders died from communicable diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHere we are, all this time later, and the health environment within New Zealand has changed quite dramatically. Now New Zealand health professionals, and in particular the New Zealand health dollar\u2014which will always be rationed no matter how ideal we get the system to be\u2014are dealing with a death rate that is largely fuelled by non-communicable diseases. So there is an intention and an attempt within this bill to bring some public health initiatives into law around non-communicable diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe bill is divided into eight parts, and I want quickly to flick through them. The first concerns the powers, functions, and duties of various key players in the health sector, such as those of the Minister of Health, the Director-General of Health, the Director of Public Health, district heath boards, territorial authorities, and the like. It is very clear that under this bill the powers that those functionaries have are clearly specified and laid out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill deals with health information, notification, and reporting, and it also includes the cervical screening provisions that were put in place in the previous Parliament. It talks about updating existing audit provisions, and it provides for the notification of specified conditions, which is fairly straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe third section, which is one I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, concerns the issue of non-communicable diseases. It provides principles and non-binding codes for reducing the rates of non-communicable diseases. This is the controversial part of the bill. I remember that some time ago when I was on the Health Committee, we had a briefing from health officials. I cannot remember what we were having a briefing on, but we asked them about the different ways the Government could respond to a particular circumstance. They said there were three ways. The Government could do nothing, and sometimes that is the best way to respond to a health situation\u2014for example, if it is a virus that is going around, it will be gone soon, so we do nothing and let it take its course. The next thing was to involve public health education, and the third thing was to regulate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis bill brings in a fourth provision, which would kind of slot into the middle of that continuum. It is the introduction of non-binding codes. This is not full-on regulation; it is a step beyond education, and it certainly allows the Ministry of Health to make some sensible suggestions. One of the areas that came to mind, which I think is an area where we need some non-binding codes right now in New Zealand, is the issue of foetal alcohol syndrome. When I was a young mum\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536c3281306b4a3d8e01020483e88020\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: A long time ago now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022950ec3ed7dab493081541a05285c8f92\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it was a long time ago; I admit that\u2014we were advised by our general practitioners that a moderate amount of alcohol consumption was actually OK and would not do any harm. Most of the young mums I got to know consumed mild amounts of alcohol during their pregnancies in the mistaken belief that it was perfectly safe. New scientific evidence now suggests that the advice we should be giving to young mums is that they should go nowhere near alcohol during the term of their pregnancies. There are genuine cases where it has been very clear that even moderate or mild consumption of alcohol during sensitive parts of a baby\u2019s development has created this syndrome. We have a high incidence of that in New Zealand, and we should consider that there is an area where some really interesting non-binding codes could be introduced to make a real difference to the health outcomes of literally thousands of New Zealand children. That is what this bill seeks to introduce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI note the speech made by the Hon Tony Ryall. He talked about clause 374, and he is quite right in his warning about that. I do not want to sound as if I am criticising him, because he is quite right. When we look at clause 374, which is about the regulations around public health in a general sense, we see that all the way through, in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), and so on, it is mainly talking about communicable diseases. Then we get to a little paragraph, paragraph (x), which slips in the ability for there to be some guidelines to \u201Creducing, or assisting in reducing, risk factors \u2026 associated with, or related to, non-communicable diseases:\u201D. That paragraph could be completely overlooked. It has been slipped in there, and I would like to think that during the select committee process some clarity will be given to it. Is it about non-binding codes, or is it about something that could possibly be considered to be a bit more onerous? United Future accepts that there are some concerns. I have certainly been reading some publicity around concerns on that matter, and I think we need to be very clear as to what is being proposed there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBeyond that third part of the bill are some provisions for the management of conditions posing health risks\u2014that is, to do with communicable diseases\u2014which basically roll over some of the existing provisions in the Act and identify some new and more modern risks of communicable diseases. The bill talks about the role of territorial authorities, particularly in relation to environmental health and the provision of sanitary works. It also deals with the interesting issue of stopping \u201Cnuisances\u201D, which will be an interesting thing for the select committee to look at. It talks about regulated activities, and when we look at the regulated activities we see the breadth of what this bill has to cover. Those are activities\u2014such as hairdressing, and needle and syringe exchange programmes\u2014that currently come under some form of regulation, and the bill talks about the fact that there is currently a serious gap in the heath provisions for some of those regulated activities, a gap we need to look at under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI move to the provisions concerning emergencies and border health. That is where the \u201Call risks\u201D approach to emergencies comes in. The \u201Call risks\u201D approach is specifically to do with emergencies and border controls around health issues, such as severe acute respiratory syndrome, bird flu, and those types of issues. Part 8 of the bill covers miscellaneous provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis is a fascinating bill, and United Future is disappointed that we do not enjoy representation on the Heath Committee. We wish the committee members well in their consideration of and deliberation on this bill, and we are happy to support its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u002201386b9901724787bdc52391beaa097f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201386b9901724787bdc52391beaa097f\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the very good Minister of Health for bringing this important Public Health Bill to the House tonight. Moving away from the conspiracy theories of the National Party speakers, I would like to emphasise in my speech the important role that the bill has in extending to New Zealand\u2019s borders protection from public health risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe Public Health Bill will replace the Health Act 1956. The Health Act contains many provisions that aim to protect New Zealand\u2019s borders by preventing, reducing, or eliminating the spread of risks to public health at the border. However, the Health Act provisions were written 50 years ago, and they reflect the fact that back then ships were the predominant form of international travel. Whereas it was a great novelty in 1956 for my father to travel internationally entirely by plane, aircraft now carry most people travelling between countries. The Health Act provisions are also very specific on the diseases that the border health provisions can be used to manage. The Act provides that anyone who disembarks from a boat or ship is liable to quarantine. However, that provision can be invoked only if the person is known to have one of four listed diseases: yellow fever, plague, cholera, or avian influenza. That is obviously inadequate in this day and age. The bill expands the provisions in the Health Act so that all risks to public health, irrespective of cause, can be acted upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003ELet me paint a scenario as to when the new provisions in the Public Health Bill may be invoked. Imagine that a plane is arriving in New Zealand. During the flight to New Zealand four passengers start coughing blood and bleeding from their nose and bowel, and record very high temperatures. The captain of the flight notifies a medical officer of health in New Zealand that four of the passengers have taken ill, and describes their symptoms. The captain requests travel information from the passengers. Nobody at this stage knows what is wrong with any of the passengers. When the plane lands at Auckland airport the medical officer of health and other ground staff are on hand to meet the passengers. The medical officer of health uses powers under the Public Health Bill to quarantine all the passengers and crew on board the flight. This means that all the passengers are moved to a special facility where they are isolated from members of the public to prevent the spread of the condition. Although no one is yet aware of what is causing the passengers\u2019 symptoms, the symptoms are very concerning, and it is considered that they may be a serious risk to public health. While in quarantine the cases can be further tested to determine the nature of the disease and the threat it poses, and, of course, the people can receive treatment. [Interruption] May I point out that certain vessels full of sound and fury on the other side of the House tonight signify nothing. Other passengers can also be monitored to determine whether they are also developing the condition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe Public Health Bill empowers medical officers of health to take action to protect New Zealand\u2019s borders from conditions that are suspected of being a serious risk to public health. Under present legislation, passengers on board a ship or plane can be quarantined only if they are known to have one of the four specified diseases I mentioned earlier. The Public Health Bill will allow all risks to be managed at the border, including viruses that we do not even know about yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe bill also contains new provisions to control people departing from, as well as those arriving in, New Zealand, to prevent the export of sources of public health risk. New Zealand is part of an international community and we owe it to our neighbours not to export diseases, conditions, or contaminants that may be a risk to public health. That is particularly important given our direct flights to the Pacific region. Medical practitioners or medical officers of health may advise the relevant airline, carrier, or country about a person with a quarantinable condition that is specified in the bill who is intending to leave the country and who is a health risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe bill will assist New Zealand\u2019s compliance with the 2005 International Health Regulations that came into force in June 2007. These require New Zealand to be able to implement a full range of health measures at the border to ensure that threats to public health can be managed. New Zealand, of course, is bound by those regulations. The most important benefit of the International Health Regulations is the greater level of global health security that will come from having a coordinated global surveillance and response system for managing emerging health hazards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EProtecting New Zealand\u2019s borders from all risks to public health is an important function in this day and age when risks and threats can come from many directions and causes. The Public Health Bill will keep New Zealand\u2019s border control legislation in line with the 21st century. I commend the Public Health Bill to the House, and, like other sensible members of the Health Committee, I am looking forward to the submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00222fcd3ae53eee4c95bae6f267282d1bbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fcd3ae53eee4c95bae6f267282d1bbf\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E That was all very earnest and dreary, but, frankly, there was nothing in that speech to show why we should be rushing through the first reading of the Public Health Bill under urgency tonight. We have had the Public Health Act for 50 years\u2014since 1956\u2014yet this Government feels a need to push this bill through under urgency right at the end of the year. That had me wondering why that is. It is pretty clear why\u2014in this 259-page bill, one has to get right through to page 213 before one gets to the Trojan Horse clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI would say that the Government was hoping that at the end of the year, in the festive season, it could just rush the bill through under the nose of the public and the Opposition, and that all of us, like them, would not have read the bill. Well, that is actually not correct. We have read the bill and we have found what the Minister has been trying to hide in it. The Minister has been trying to hide the power to exert some very Draconian influence that can be used if the Minister does not get his or her way. What will happen is that if the voluntary codes do not work, the Minister will regulate. There will be more of this nanny State stuff that, frankly, the public of New Zealand are absolutely fed up with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIt is quite interesting that in the commentary to this bill there is nothing about this Trojan Horse clause. It is quite interesting that in the Minister\u2019s press release she made no reference to it. It is quite interesting that the Government thinks that if it puts up Lesley Soper for long enough, with her boring, drab monotone, people will go to sleep listening to stuff about border controls and will not see the real nanny State stuff in here, which, frankly, the people of New Zealand are absolutely sick of. [Interruption] Martin Gallagher knows how badly it went down in his electorate when the Government decided it was going to try to regulate tuck shops. It went down very poorly. It just shows that we have a Government that thinks that whatever it does inside the beltway with the white, liberal establishment in Wellington just does not matter. The Government members do not give a toss about the New Zealand public. They think they can ram through anything they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I note that there are some good elements of this bill. We agree that the legislation needs an update and we will be supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, but we will have some really hard debates with these failed Labour Party lackeys when we get there. We will be going through this bill clause by clause. I tell members that the National Party will not stand for this State-dominated regulation that these guys are going to foist on the public of New Zealand. This will be an election issue. It really will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe Government thinks it can legislate against diabetes and obesity. It thinks that New Zealanders want to be told what they can eat at the tuck shops of the nation. We heard Sue Kedgley speaking before. She was talking about the National Party and about what happened on the obesity inquiry. I can tell members what the Green Party\u2019s priorities for health are. Would members believe it? We spent more time on an inquiry into aspartame in chewing gum than we did on child cancer services in Wellington. That was because the Greens and Labour dominate the Health Committee. [Interruption] That is right. That is where their health priorities are. They are not saying anything now because they know that is right. The fact is that for once I agreed with Hone Harawira. This Government has completely let M\u0101ori down in the area of health. It has done nothing, really, for M\u0101ori health. [Interruption] It has not. It has been pathetic and poor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis bill will be pretty controversial, and we will have a real battle in the select committee. Government members think they can hide the Trojan Horse clause on page 213 of a 259-page bill and rush it through under urgency, but that just will not wash. It is just another example of this Government thinking it can fool the public of New Zealand and get stuff through that the public are strongly, strongly opposed to. They will pay for it at the polls next year, I can tell members that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EWe concede that a few things have to be updated in relation to communicable diseases. We have had SARS. We are in the age of bird flu. Indeed, I will grudgingly concede\u2014even though the list member from Southland, who is soon to be retired, made such a terrible speech\u2014that we do have to have border controls to take steps against communicable diseases entering New Zealand. But on the issue of non-communicable diseases, if we cannot change the way people think about stuff like obesity and diabetes, and if we cannot convince them that they want to make healthy choices as of right, we will not be able to tackle obesity. We cannot legislate for this stuff. People want to have the choice to eat what they like. If we give them the right education, if we give them choices, and if they learn from an early age, they can be educated into making those right choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI say in summary that, yes, we will support the Public Health Bill being referred to a select committee, but we will see what happens there. We will certainly not be supporting any of the Draconian legislation that the Labour Party has hidden away on page 213 of a 259-page bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00226784e2ecc84f4b969db0baf92b91e5b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226784e2ecc84f4b969db0baf92b91e5b0\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E We have listened to an exercise in absolute cynicism from members opposite. We have heard the dog-whistle speeches from over there. For the benefit of people who are watching this debate tonight, I tell them that National is actually supporting the Public Health Bill. National members go into some sort of diatribe, and because Government members are concerned with the outbreak of diabetes, or concerned with the issues that Sue Kedgley and my good colleague Lesley Soper raised about critical public health issues, we are somehow accused of being politically correct and of running a nanny State. Well, talk about what we call dog-whistle politics! The classic was the member for Northcote, who admitted: \u201CWell, I am saying all of this stuff for public consumption, but\u2014cough, cough\u2014by the way, we support the bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df3a0da84e142f0be2373dce10ca288\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: They are hollow, that\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780af328726642a38c782eed7bbf58ce\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: They are hollow, all right. They are hollow vessels\u2014hollow men and hollow women. I stress that this bill will become the primary public health statute for New Zealand and that it replaces outdated legislation for public health\u2014the Health Act 1956 and the Tuberculosis Act 1948. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn my brief call I take the opportunity to commend all the people who are working in the field of public health\u2014the public health officers working for the Ministry of Health up and down the country\u2014for the excellent job they do. Instead of slagging off those people and implying that people who work for local government are somehow politically correct, grey inspectors poking about, I commend them for the excellent job they do in public health in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIf members want an example of leadership, I tell them that this is a Government that is showing, yet again, excellent leadership with this very, very important legislation. Indeed, this bill is a very good way forward. I strongly support the bill and am deeply disappointed in the Opposition members, who, in spite of all the rhetoric, cough and splutter and say they support the bill. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224488265d7ede468987ad1b8af533ce19\u0022\u003EWaka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a81f6ddaf6a4ed2abd8b8455fcac41e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002252430a7e66c7439da29820ac6cb201c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252430a7e66c7439da29820ac6cb201c5\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Ka nui te mihi ki a koe e te Kaiwhakahaere o te Whare. Greetings to you. I move, That the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, despite Standing Orders 192, 195(1)(b), and 195(1)(c).]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill provides for the establishment of a new, optional, legal entity tailored to meet the needs of iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori associations that manage communal assets. The bill is underpinned by the Government\u2019s M\u0101ori affairs policy of supporting the realisation of M\u0101ori potential, and is the result of the consideration by this Government of issues and opportunities in the area of M\u0101ori governance and tribal representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill recognises the right of M\u0101ori collectives to develop their own structures to suit their cultural and governance needs, to determine their own mandate and representation, and to do so through an independent process. It is also about recognising that good governance is a key enabler of effective organisations. Good governance leads to sustainable cultural, economic, and social success and to an enhanced contribution by M\u0101ori to the future of Aotearoa New Zealand. The New Zealand Law Commission initially investigated these ideas in the context of the Treaty settlement process, identifying a pressing need to provide a structure for the successful receipt of Treaty settlements and to facilitate the efficient administration of community-owned assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to address a number of problems that arise out of a number of common and defining experiences for M\u0101ori collectives within the current environment. First, there is a lack of cohesion between the form and function of existing legal frameworks and the unique characteristics that shape M\u0101ori collectives. Although M\u0101ori have adapted to using legal forms such as trusts and incorporated societies, often these structures do not enable them to operate in the most efficient and transparent way possible. In some cases unwieldy structures are being developed to accommodate the many activities of the group, resulting in the duplication of limited resources. M\u0101ori collectives are increasingly pursuing multiple, diverse objectives. These range from managing Treaty settlements and fisheries assets, retaining and protecting their tribal land, to operating commercial entities and providing important community services. It becomes imperative for these collectives to establish a structure that can incorporate commercial and non-commercial activities so that the different objectives of those activities can be managed appropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003ESecond, historical Treaty settlements will continue to be a key driver for the establishment of representative organisations in the immediate future, although they are not the sole focus for those entities. Cultural, commercial, and other activities are of equal importance. Third, tribal resources and assets are owned by members of the tribal group community. Representative entities have an ongoing obligation to manage those assets for the benefit of both current and future members in perpetuity. Fourth, members of iwi and hap\u016B cannot opt out of their tribal membership in the same way individual shareholders can. Therefore, the rights and interests of members need to be protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThere is a clear need for a mechanism to assist M\u0101ori collectives in managing their communal assets in order to achieve greater certainty for M\u0101ori, to assist the Crown and third parties to leverage off existing successes and focus on forward development and growth, and to support cultural identity and positive contributions to national identity. This legislation supports these objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EAs I have mentioned, the bill provides a new voluntary legal entity for iwi, hap\u016B, and non-tribal M\u0101ori associations that hold communal assets. It provides democratic and transparent processes for the formation of a waka umanga, with an emphasis on an open and early dialogue with prospective members. The bill enables those using the waka umanga model to create a structure that represents both their overarching tribal body and its constituent parts\u2014hap\u016B, marae, or rohe. The model can be developed to reflect traditional tribal structures. Tribal groups can seek recognition as the legitimate representative of that group for matters outlined in their charter, in effect creating a mechanism for tribal groups to confirm their mandate and gain legitimacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill provides that the Government must act in accordance with the interests of members\u2014current and future\u2014whilst allowing waka umanga the flexibility to shape themselves through their charter. Existing entities such as M\u0101ori trust boards, charitable trusts, and incorporated societies can transition to the waka umanga model if they wish. The bill provides that internal dispute resolution is mandatory, with an emphasis on process and early resolution. A secretariat will be set up under the bill to assist waka umanga in complying with the Act, and to provide guidance and support where needed through the registration process and beyond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EExtensive consultation with M\u0101ori and other key stakeholders has been undertaken by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri and the Law Commission since 2004, including in late 2006 concerning the overarching waka umanga proposal and in June-July 2007 on the detail of the bill itself. I am confident that the views expressed by M\u0101ori have been heard and taken into account. Yes, some iwi are already well established and comfortable within their existing structures\u2014like Ng\u0101i Tahu, for example\u2014but many are not and are currently bending into a structure that does not meet their particular needs. It is these groups that I envisage will see benefit in a model that has been designed for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn summary, this innovative legislation is a purpose-built governance model, underpinned by the principles of cultural match, flexibility, and good governance standards. It is about creating certainty for iwi and hap\u016B and for those third parties that deal with them\u2014including the Crown. With the advent of technology, globalisation, and digitalisation it is clear that M\u0101ori need to adapt in order to remain relevant in the ever-changing world. To do that, they need to be supported by good governance structures and practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe Government has placed much emphasis on economic transformation as one of its key goals for this term of office, and especially for M\u0101ori. I believe that the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill is a prime example of how the Government is providing and supporting M\u0101ori leadership in this area. I believe that the bill will provide a very positive step forward for M\u0101ori governance. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00226b873276b6d64a80931b29d4d28b6edf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b873276b6d64a80931b29d4d28b6edf\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E The public may well wonder why it is that at 10.30 tonight, under urgency, until midnight, this House is debating a range of bills, one of which is the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill, which is before us now, when no M\u0101ori leader that I know of and no tribe that I know of asked for this legislation, when the entities that it sets up are voluntary in any event, and when there are far more pressing matters that relate to M\u0101ori development than the setting up of yet another governance entity, which this Government seems determined to press on to M\u0101ori. I do not doubt the sincerity of the Minister\u2019s speech but, really, there are far more pressing things that he should be addressing his mind to after 8 years in Government. Some of the things that are preventing M\u0101ori from moving forward have nothing to do with the kind of thing that is in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe could go into urgency to address the appalling rate of child abuse that goes on in many of our communities, but we will not. We could go into urgency to address the educational failure that is inherent in some M\u0101ori communities, but we will not do that. Instead, we will debate a bill about the setting up of entities that are voluntary and whose value is untested and debatable; a bill that has the potential to create more problems than it solves and more tension within tribes than tribes need at this particular time in their development. Suffice it to say, for those reasons, and for other reasons, National does not support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori did not seek this legislation. There is no demand for it from M\u0101ori. The initiative is one that was developed solely in Wellington, and now it seeks to be imposed on M\u0101ori tribes. It is voluntary, so it may never come to pass. M\u0101ori do not have to pick it up, so one wonders why the Minister would waste his time introducing it. M\u0101ori in the 21st century are quite capable of developing their own entities and managing their own affairs. In fact, there are a number of increasingly high-profile M\u0101ori entities in New Zealand now, which bears testament to the fact that M\u0101ori are capable of managing their own affairs. They do not need a Labour-led Government to, yet again, impose on them an entity that, as I said, is debatable in its value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill, as the Minister has outlined, makes provision for the establishment of two types of entities. It makes provision for their formation and their registration, for accountability back to their stakeholders or beneficiaries, and for the M\u0101ori Land Court to oversee all. There in itself is a huge problem. Sitting overall is the M\u0101ori Land Court, with whom M\u0101ori have had not the best of relationships over the decades, and that court now seems to be so much the decider of M\u0101ori affairs that one would think we have not moved out of the 19th century. But, of course, oftentimes with this Government one gets that feeling anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAlthough the Minister has gone into some detail in relation to the bill, probably to enhance his own understanding, nothing he has said gives any confidence that the purposes, as set out, will be achieved, particularly the purpose designed to give legal certainty and stability to M\u0101ori governance entities, because this bill has the ring of an Act that was passed by the Labour Government of the 1980s\u2014the Runanga Iwi Act. That, I think, was also passed under urgency, against the wishes of M\u0101ori. Nobody had asked for that either, but that Government determinedly pushed it through and imposed it on M\u0101ori, and, of course, it came to an end when the National Government in 1990 sensibly repealed it. There is a bit of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu here, and the Labour Government should think about that. Again, it finds it difficult even to contemplate that M\u0101ori are capable of managing their own affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to take just one example from the bill. Clauses 9 to 11 deal with the formation of waka p\u016B, which is the tribal entity being proposed. On the face of it, a group of hap\u016B are able to form themselves into a waka p\u016B for the purpose of settling a claim, which they may rightly decide they have proper claim to, and, at the same time, however, a leader or leaders at an iwi level, which embodies those same hap\u016B, could also say that they are the ones who should form the waku p\u016B. What will the Government do then? It seems to me, as I said earlier, that this has the potential for divisiveness and for far more tension than anybody needs at this stage in M\u0101ori development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to be quite clear as to why National does not support this legislation. M\u0101ori did not seek it. They did not ask for it. Although the Government said it consulted M\u0101ori\u2014I might say consulted in inverted commas\u2014the initiative was not M\u0101ori. It was the initiative here in Wellington, developed first by the Law Commission\u2014and nobody asked the Law Commission to do this, other than the Government\u2014and then armies of bureaucrats busied themselves, over a number of years, to put this legislation into place. There is no great rush for it. I am sure there will be no great rush for it when it is passed, if the support parties of the Government help it through. It does seem to be an utter waste of time. This is a model developed by bureaucrats in Wellington, and it is now sought to be imposed on M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I said, this bill had its genesis in the Law Commission, and that in itself does not engender great confidence, especially now with Sir Geoffrey Palmer pushing legislation left, right, and centre. But I suppose when the Government is not capable of doing its own legislation, it has to turn to one of its own. Thirdly, this is typical of the Labour Government\u2019s mode of operation, which is: \u201CWe know best. M\u0101ori, you need us to tell you how to run your lives.\u201D Frankly, the Minister should be ashamed of himself for coming to the House with legislation that M\u0101ori have not asked for. He has had bureaucrats in Wellington busy, wasting time, working on it. M\u0101ori do not need any Government in the 21st century telling them how to run their lives\u2014how to suck eggs, actually, because that is what this is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe experience of Ng\u0101i Tahu and Tainui\u2014and I bring those two tribes into this debate with the greatest of respect\u2014is a shining example of what M\u0101ori can do when they are released from the shackles of the M\u0101ori Land Court, for one, and when they are freed from an overbearing Government that seeks to push legislation on them. Indeed, in the 21st century all M\u0101ori ask for is to have full capacity to exercise their rangatiratanga, to find their way, to develop their own structures, and to manage their\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba85baa346c844d3a3f5a9ad5a67dd8c\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Is that National Party policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0183f8676634ba2b02c2d86393d938f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: There is some person on the Labour side who thinks she knows better than M\u0101ori people. Goodness me! She is typical of the Government she is part of. She is a P\u0101keh\u0101 woman, as well. National in Government in the 1990s gave M\u0101ori the freedom to develop their own entities, and Ng\u0101i Tahu and Tainui are prime examples of that approach. If only that Government could get it into its head that it does not have the solutions for everything, that it does not know best how to manage M\u0101ori, and that it should set them free. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI said at the beginning of my speech that there are far more pressing issues to worry about than this, but this Government has wasted human and financial resources in developing a bill that has no value\u2014it is voluntary, so the Government actually admits it has no value\u2014and it is likely not to be picked up by any M\u0101ori group, because no one is asking for it, and it flies in the face of M\u0101ori exercising their tino rangatiratanga in the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u00220cabf4e3f11a40b6ac19116ad63bf29a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cabf4e3f11a40b6ac19116ad63bf29a\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take this opportunity to rise in support of the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill, and I also take the opportunity to commend the Minister Parekura Horomia for bringing this bill to the House. It is not surprising that the Opposition is not supporting this bill. When in the past has the National Party supported a positive initiative to give enhancements for M\u0101ori? Never. So it is not surprising that National is not supporting the bill. It is not surprising at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee heard from the Law Commission. It gave us a briefing in relation to the principles surrounding this bill, and it pointed out quite a serious problem, which was that existing legal identities did not provide adequately for the tribes. The commission\u2019s report states that the \u201Cincorporated societies law prohibits the pursuit of pecuniary gain as an objective;\u201D. It also states that \u201Ccompanies are designed for individual investors not communal investment;\u201D, and that \u201Ctrusts manage assets for beneficiaries and not at the direction of beneficiaries; charitable trusts are ultimately responsible to the Attorney-General, not to the people; Maori Trusts Boards are responsible to the Minister; Maori Incorporations serve individual shareholders; and statutory bodies depend on Government for their powers and for any amendment to those powers.\u201D The report continues: \u201CMaori have made creative use of existing legal structures but the Commission considered they should not have to work around structures but through structures designed for them. To overcome that problem the report proposes another option for Maori, the use of a new form of entity \u2026 which would have corporate identity and perpetual succession, hold assets for a general class, and operate according to charters designed by the people to accommodate their circumstances.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe commission also claimed that the lack of legal framework for tribal restructuring was to ensure that entities are developed by people themselves against the background of their own culture. Almost all current legal institutions do not reflect the iwi structures in their governance models. Because of that, M\u0101ori are prevented from access and overall participation within the economy. That is unfair; therefore, it deserved to be addressed. So the Law Commission called for legislation to provide a legal governance model that could be adopted by M\u0101ori identities managing collectively owned assets that embraced some fundamental aspects reflective of their tribal structure, capturing the cultural sensitivities necessary to enhance the service for M\u0101ori as a whole. The bill is reflective of those principles as outlined by the Law Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EAs the Minister stated earlier, this legislation is underpinned by the Government\u2019s M\u0101ori affairs policy of supporting the realisation of M\u0101ori potential, and it comes as a result of the consideration by this Government of issues reflective of M\u0101ori governance and tribal representation. The bill recognises the rights of M\u0101ori collectives enabling development of processes in sync with iwi development\u2014their own structures, with their own administrative procedures\u2014so as to enable iwi to make their own decisions about what was important to them; that is, to provide iwi with the ability to ultimately become independent, self-sustaining, and self-reliant, based on those terms. To achieve that, we must accept the enduring traditional significance and importance of iwi, by identifying the characteristics by which iwi are to be recognised. This bill captures the very essence of those principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EIn taking this short call, as chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, I say that we look forward to receiving this bill, and I intend on calling for submissions and welcoming the input of all affected parties as we analyse this bill and report those findings back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b07d4ac4ee314cb6b8de2e9051ac84de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b07d4ac4ee314cb6b8de2e9051ac84de\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The intelligentsia sitting with their flat whites, pontificating about how they can help the lumpenproletariat! That is how the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill came about. That is what it was! The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, Parekura Horomia, has been Minister for 8 years, and he has not had even one piece of legislation in the House that he thought up. He has been taking $180,000 a year, and not once has he come to this House with his own idea. Who came up with this legislation? The big fat cats of M\u0101oridom have been sitting down on the quay and thinking to themselves what they can do for the lumpenproletariat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252cf0a1e4c6547129dc617bcdb91425e\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t even know what the lumpenproletariat is!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75c99c655fc49c98fce35f8385159eb\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Let us get to New Zealand First. Let us cut to the chase, for the new ambassador to the Cook Islands. I want to quote from a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283a45edeb7b543e78ac0a210c4980154\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Are you iwi or Kiwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdc0a91b9104740b3f735cc1a9cb6ce\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I am iwi and I am Kiwi. The speech states: \u201COne result will be that the Government will step back from the role that the last Labour Government took upon itself of interfering in the matter that properly belonged to the Maori tribes. It is not the business of the Government to dictate to Maori how the territory of the tribes is to be determined.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWho said that? It was the Rt Hon Winston Peters, 17 years ago in this very House. When he became the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs he repealed the Runanga Iwi Act, and that was the one and only thing he ever did right. Well, actually, no; but I will not tell members the second thing. He also went on to say: \u201CThe wishes of the people were never a consideration of the former administration.\u201D\u2014meaning the Labour Government. \u201CInstead, it proceeded full speed ahead with a piece of legislation that had neither the support nor the consent of the people.\u201D The Labour Government rushed it through the House on 28 August 1990. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIt is exactly what we have here, in terms of being rushed through the House. Why, for God\u2019s sake, after 8 years has this Minister done nothing? He is an abject joke around the traps. He is the worst Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs that this nation has ever seen, and I include myself as one of those illustrious former Ministers of M\u0101ori Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut then we heard from\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I do not mind a bit of barracking. I can take it, just like the rest of us. But I always get told to interject from my own seat. I ask that the Minister follow the rules, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222210ea7970334dcf9b0dc3c34ef705f1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has been sitting in the seat he is in for a while. He is allowed to do that. It is only when he moves to another seat for the purposes of interjecting that it is out of order. He has not done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222711498e106641c2ae13d10383cdb066\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, there we go. After 8 years, what have those members opposite done for M\u0101ori? The National Party when in Government supported the first k\u014Dhanga reo and supported the first kura kaupapa M\u0101ori, and where have we seen kura and k\u014Dhanga in the last 8 years? This Government is an abject failure. New Zealand First is about to support the same bill, in principle, as the Runanga Iwi Act. We did not ask for it. M\u0101ori did not ask for it. Not one M\u0101ori came to this House with a petition. Not one M\u0101ori came to the select committee or came to the House with a petition to say: \u201CPlease, sir, we need this bill to survive, because we\u2019ve run out of blankets, we\u2019ve run out of beads, and now we need this waka umanga.\u201D For goodness\u2019 sake\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f46fd834e1f480ebf7b3b59dd2723ce\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, what an insult!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221222c0b03e09492f8dbd0162dbbfdd08\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: They do not like this bit, but boy do they not smell of the old colonial master! Boy, do they not smell of the old \u201CWe know best; Helen Clark is our mother. Helen Clark is the mother of the nation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWell, this Government is on borrowed time, and the first thing we will do\u2014well, maybe not the first thing, but the second thing\u2014is get rid of this nanny State rubbish that continues to tell the indigenous people of this country\u2014[Interruption] Well, I wonder what the M\u0101ori Party is going to do. I know it will support us. I know it will support the National Party\u2019s view, which is to vote against this bill because it is an abject waste of time and money. I tell members that the Minister did not even know about the waka ama legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022196d547ef6264cbaa5b7e690685df447\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Waka ama?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fd2afa294147e8b6194316e30d1e2d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill. I made a mistake. The other one was joining New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister did not even ask for this to be done; it was Sir Geoffrey Palmer and his mates\u2014the Labour Party lackeys. It was the Labour Party lackeys who thought to themselves that it would be a good idea and that maybe it will make the Minister look really good. I doubt it. They thought that maybe it will show the nation that the Minister has been doing some work. It would have been all right if he had written the blooming thing, but he had nothing to do with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78f7f91f06f4905a99e5b6bc510f898\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re soft in the head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de2d4939b96d4a0da451556c702257b0\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Horomia who is soft in the head. That is not what they say about him around the community. Oh, no! They do not say that Parekura is soft in the head. They do not even know who he is. I tell him that he can go to all the tangi and hui he wants, but the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs is an abject joke. He is the laughing stock of M\u0101oridom. This bill only goes to show that he does not know what he is doing and that he has to rely on the former Labour Party leader Sir Geoffrey Palmer to do his bidding. Again, it is nothing more than the old colonial master telling a bunch of M\u0101oris what to do, again. In the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2019 speech, not once\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225785e6a390de4d1f9f7b8a239e416528\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: What about the unemployment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217cc8c3fe8e443e899df6a4aa3454d87\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: So this is all about unemployment, now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230b2391b065f4257af6c4462537cd4a6\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You did nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0fa76c8aae74b80980b9778f144959b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we did nothing. That is all right, I say to Parekura. The National Party supported k\u014Dhanga\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c1bebea06a34c729b2b457f9f214d28\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You did nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e922786407a4ca0be529d1db85459a3\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we did nothing. Five kura kaupapa a year were established under the then Minister of Education, the Hon Lockwood Smith. That policy went, under this Labour Government. How many kura have been established under this Minister? Sweet FA. So do not tell me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257fa5281108741d89b2aab74a0f58f01\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am wondering whether you could determine whether the phrase \u201Csweet FA\u201D, given what it alludes to, is a parliamentary term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225343174a53484dbcb305bffaa76bd868\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I think all this comes down to order in the Chamber and to a question of taste, really. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1cfb96da4ac4951a64fc69e307da8e7\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one person\u2019s taste is another person\u2019s meal. That will not cover up what that Minister is about to feel. He is about to feel the wrath of the people. I saw them out there a couple of years ago and they should have taken the opportunity to boot him out then. But I am relying on the M\u0101ori Party to take that seat. I am relying on the M\u0101ori Party. In fact, the House is relying on the M\u0101ori Party, because we are sick and tired of the garbled messages that we get from this Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022107abb774ed24896aaf849b46b27cf63\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll cut and run again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022848d40693ff74f968d56e1f03207bf2a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: There he goes again. You see, the reason why we have a translator is so we can understand what he is talking about. We cannot understand his English and we certainly cannot understand his M\u0101ori. We are sick of him. He is a joke. At least I tell the truth, that he is a joke. This bill encapsulates what he has been doing. Do members know what that is? It is a big, fat nothing. This bill was put forward by the so-called intelligentsia of M\u0101oridom and P\u0101keh\u0101dom. Eddie Durie sat down with Sir Geoffrey Palmer and thought that this is what the poor natives need\u2014a corporate structure. Iwi\u2014and Kiwis\u2014have been around for thousands of years. We do not need this bill and we never asked for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6bb18f57d1a4a84a2fa80435b8a2ce6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6bb18f57d1a4a84a2fa80435b8a2ce6\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E One or two issues were raised in the previous speech that I think need to be referred to. The first one is that the member continued to use the expression \u201Clumpenproletariat\u201D. He actually does not understand who the lumpenproletariat are. He was referring to the lumpenproletariat as being M\u0101ori. Well, Karl Marx used the word \u201Clumpenproletariat\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834b551478614509ab6ed9f08d820d8c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Well, workers don\u2019t understand, so you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f98d6caa38c4e4c90cd419adcd4cb62\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: They were not the workers. The proletariat were the workers. The lumpenproletariat were the criminal class\u2014the prostitutes, thieves, and pickpockets. What that member just said shows that he believes that all M\u0101ori are lumped in with that class. He has insulted every M\u0101ori in New Zealand with the use of that expression, and he needs to go back and do his homework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EA second area he needs to do a little bit of homework on is in relation to k\u014Dhanga reo. It is absolutely correct that National said it would put in five k\u014Dhanga reo per annum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97bd2d9f9f14db0a79bdb45815aa83c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. It was kura. Get it right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b584976db3954911ba051a1371a2d7c9\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, kura kaupapa\u2014the member is correct. It was five per year for 3 years, starting in 1995. As the then Associate Minister, with responsibility for M\u0101ori, I knew that in 1998 we were not going to put in any more\u2014none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce98c5fd027e4763920152bad53c643f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, that\u2019s wrong, because there were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf218e88c314c009fa43ca36ee716dd\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: And that member was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs at the time, and I had to say \u201CSorry, we aren\u2019t putting any more in, because there\u2019s nothing budgeted for.\u201D But New Zealand First said: \u201CListen! You\u2019ve got all these kura kaupapa and they are having to work in broom cupboards, with no support, no help\u2014nothing. We will put in place a policy whereby those developing kura kaupapa can be connected with an established kura kaupapa. We will put in additional money so they can be supported until they get to the stage where they are independent and have been reviewed by the Education Review Office. And we don\u2019t care how many are developed each year as long as they are meeting the quality.\u201D That was a policy put in place by New Zealand First in 1998, to develop kura kaupapa in the absence of any policy by National at that particular time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e199f2eaf451483781972196c9dba8f5\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish\u2014what a load of rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214f326be536e4847b1709d3c27939c72\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: And the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs did not even know that was going on. He took no interest, at all, and never talked to me about it. He did not even know what was happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI will go on with one or two things. I think it is fitting that a Minister from Ng\u0101ti Porou is bringing in this bill. Tau Henare got another thing wrong. New Zealand First has said we will support this bill going to the select committee and that we will listen to the arguments there. We believe that some genuine issues have to be worked through. Remember, it was the leader of New Zealand First who introduced Ka Awatea\u2014a document about empowering M\u0101ori. It was Winston Peters, the leader of New Zealand First, who resolved the Taranaki leasehold issue by producing an extra $60 million\u2014not the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut I will go back in history and remember that corporations were a concept introduced by a great New Zealander\u2014and I mean a great New Zealander. Many New Zealanders of both Treaty partners do not understand the greatness of the man Sir Apirana Ngata of Ng\u0101ti Porou. When we sing \u201CPokare Kare Ana\u201D, do we think he created it? He did not have the words \u201Cwai a Rotorua\u201D in it; \u201CWaiapu\u201D should have been in there. Te Arawa\u2014[Interruption] They stole it. Poi was not a thing the wahine did; it was a male thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ESir Apirana Ngata introduced all those sorts of things, but he also introduced the concept of corporations to M\u0101ori\u2014and I will now refer to a Marxist concept\u2014who had had the means of production taken away from them. It is part of our shameful history. Sir Apirana Ngata asked how the means of production, which is the land, could be utilised in a productive fashion. He came up with the concept of corporations, and he worked it. As a result, places like the East Coast became very, very economically viable and in fact did very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3decd97d49d4a0aad0d20eb06ec720b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s because they owned their own land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d20f815a2c894e9cab52f5e8c0247b63\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: And Tau Henare knows that that was a great period. By the way, the party Apirana Ngata belonged to was the embryonic party of the National Party. So I ask those members to stand up and say that he was one of theirs. But, in fact, Apirana Ngata imposed a P\u0101keh\u0101 structure. He was viewing the world with a P\u0101keh\u0101 perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c050a56970e47029fec762beeca0794\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: So is that the reason we\u2019ve got this here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a5664a992f41ba9b70a8cc96f78906\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: I want to say\u2014if that man over there will just shut up\u2014that all I am prepared to do is speak with a P\u0101keh\u0101 voice, as somebody who has attempted to walk across the bridge, who knows full well that he will never, ever get fully across it, but who is prepared to continue to make the effort to get as far as possible in order to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe in the Education and Science Committee have been looking at how we can make the system work for every person. We had a very good, encouraging presentation from Apryll Parata in terms of Ka Hikitia. I talked to my colleague Te Ururoa Flavell, who said that, yes, it was good, but he still did not have confidence that it would eradicate the gaps. And I had to agree with him. I could empathise with his frustration. It was going to help to close the gaps, I was totally confident, but it was not going to eradicate them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe have to realise that there have been dynamics of subjugation, and of removal of the means of production\u2014which is land\u2014within our country. That is a fact, and we as a Parliament have to front up to it. As a nation, we need to recognise that and say that, yes, it occurred, and continue to rectify it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI see in this particular bill the issue once again of wanting to look at how we are operating, and how we are giving back to M\u0101ori entities the potential to use the means of production. We will put the bill through the select committee process, we will listen, and we will ask whether it will further empower M\u0101ori and whether it is really in the same line as Ka Awatea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI will use an example, which is a bit of a hobby horse of mine, of the subtle way in which P\u0101keh\u0101 have been able to impose their will on the people of this nation. I ask the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bccb588b93f481586a0ba9da95fa4df\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: And they\u2019ll do it again tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba2fcef030f49139bda23f57f846bfa\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: No. I tell the member there that I have said right here and now that I am speaking with a P\u0101keh\u0101 voice, as much as possible, to a P\u0101keh\u0101 audience, and M\u0101ori can agree or disagree with me, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a12259a40f254b84b8d99aeaeb336bf0\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re doing it again tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c210056cd3cd4d4999365ecd009c8c3d\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: Surely, that member is not going to close down freedom of speech or freedom of expression? But here is the point: we have departments, ministries of education, and everything else that keep calling this nation Aotearoa New Zealand. But we have to ask ourselves when New Zealand was actually named New Zealand. How many people in this House know who actually named this land New Zealand? There is one person, because I told him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f7180718fe4b88bb0e925d8115d6da\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Abel Tasman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf3133be67684f18b613ce9bd2db63ad\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: It was not Abel Tasman; no, he named it Staten Landt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2578cb22a746f7b28a586b0299682f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Who was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88805a0a55c4a37a6ce60fd53ebfebd\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: It was a guy by the name of Blaeu who was a Dutch cartographer. Who named it Aotearoa? It was another P\u0101keh\u0101, not a M\u0101ori. He was a P\u0101keh\u0101 by the name of Stephenson Percy Smith. He named it Aotearoa. I will give the reason why the traditional name of this country was not Aotearoa. [Interruption] Hang on a second! I ask Tau Henare to tell me something. There had been linguistic contact between P\u0101keh\u0101 and M\u0101ori for over 70 years when the Treaty of Waitangi was translated by missionaries into M\u0101ori, so why did they not use the term \u201CAotearoa\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296219570036a4282b9fa1e020a57e448\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7173feedfc8400dae0c4403dc6c6146\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if that was the traditional name for this country, then surely they would have put \u201CAotearoa\u201D in there. The Declaration of Independence would have used the term \u201CAotearoa\u201D; instead, it used \u201CNiu T\u012Breni\u201D, because there was no traditional name. I tell members here and now that P\u0101keh\u0101 have subtly imposed this story through the school journals and through the education system, so we have all come to believe a P\u0101keh\u0101 myth. That is the way we have operated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac8c4717d4624e1ca56235fbb4851b73\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It was a Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248bab220cf96459da1b1f20b8e1254dc\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: It was a Smith; the member is right. It was a Smith myth. Let us go back to the bill itself. New Zealand First will be supporting it going to the select committee, but not beyond the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c978e8c93694baaa43f7a3f35181585\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69b5ab8a21940d680394da733e09c48\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: We will listen to the arguments and do the necessary, because if we believe that this bill gives greater empowerment to M\u0101ori groups to utilise their means of production, then we believe that that is a positive direction for New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022975f6aa7acf14bf6bdca33402ac26f63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022975f6aa7acf14bf6bdca33402ac26f63\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker; t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa; t\u0113n\u0101 koe, Gerry Brownlee. There is a whakatau\u0101k\u012B that I will refer to as we consider this bill to provide for the formation and registration of new statutory governance entities\u2014waka umanga\u2014by tribal groups and M\u0101ori associations. It goes like this: \u201CMe m\u0101tau ki te whet\u016B, i mua i te k\u014Dkiri o te haere\u2014before you set forth on a journey, be sure you know the stars.\u201D You see, our t\u016Bpuna were celestial navigators and astronomers, referring to the stars as a key navigational beacon for ocean voyages, calculating time and the seasons, and attributing names to each of the periods in the lunar cycle\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a00f168cbc42bf930b2b2dd19986b7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but on all sides there is just far too much chatter. If members want to chatter, they should just go outside to the lobbies, please. The speaker is not getting a fair go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e276a3946584b438e2ab2e452a3e0fd\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Do I start my time again, Madam Assistant Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d946d8aed704842bc91dfcd1b4c6e94\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231763bc0e754785827cea5d210c5bf3\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I am just joking; it is all right. I was talking about the cycles and about how our people attributed names to various periods of the lunar cycle, such as Whiro, Tirea, Ohoata, \u014Crongonui, Maurea, Mutu, and so on. Names were also given to the individual stars, or whet\u016B\u2014Te Ikaroa, Te Mang\u014Droa, Te Paeroa o Wh\u0101nui, Whiti-kaupeka, Ng\u0101 P\u0101tari, and many, many more. The legwork was done, negotiation with key stakeholders was thorough and complex, and no journey would be embarked upon until every last factor was accounted for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs we launch this waka umanga project, which is basically a tailor-made legal structure to cater for the governance needs of M\u0101ori collectives, we in the M\u0101ori Party ask ourselves whether the same desire for certainty has been followed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I appreciated very much the intervention that you took before, and now that I have finished the sorts of funny things at the start, I am trying to move to be a little bit serious. I would appreciate it if those members who are interrupting my flow would move outside please, if that is OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e21fbbeac546f8b2065cf9a1b18791\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. It is just chatter, chatter coming in all the time, and it really is rude. If members want to talk, then they should just go outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7f772a93124a288c4f9766b1e2693e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Where was I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555419f7bb9c45ef8cf5c77fb73948fc\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I don\u2019t know. Where were you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f27198ed7341f686096c7a686355b5\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell Mr Henare right now. A key selling point that that member happened to miss when he was talking about this proposal is that a registration as a waka umanga is optional. That is OK; choice is good, we say. That is, of course, depending on whether the choice is a real one, because it would appear from the outset that a powerful incentive exists for iwi, which is that if they gain a legitimate status under the eyes of the Crown, then they are all the more likely to be in a safe position to receive Treaty settlement funds and assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe problem is, inevitably, how we define the very nature of the problem in the first place. Let me put it like this: is it a problem as defined by wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi? Or is the nature of the problem envisaged in this bill really just a solution to address a problem for the Crown? Is the solution one that has been dreamt up by the agents of the Crown to solve problems that the bureaucracy has in itself created by imposing inadequate legal structures on hap\u016B and iwi during settlements? These are the sorts of questions we are asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe come to this bill knowing, of course, that the governance needs of M\u0101ori collectives are not being properly catered for in the existing legal structures such as trusts, companies, and incorporated societies. So, hey presto, this bill specifies that corporate governance arrangements and standards be included in the charter of every waka umanga, including procedures for internal dispute resolution. With true legalese attention to detail, a waka umanga must meet certain standards of accountability before it can be registered. This includes the election and duties of governors, planning, financial management, the role of the chief executive officer, and other specifics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAlthough the motive to address the problems of trusts, companies, and incorporated societies was a positive one, the proposed legal entity closes down the possibility of developing M\u0101ori models of governance consistent with tradition, tikanga M\u0101ori, and tino rangatiratanga. I think that is the major point. The upshot of it all is that although we all see that there are some issues with M\u0101ori governance that require a response\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014the one-stop shop standard, one-size-fits-all corporate model approved by the Crown, is not, we say, and never will be, the only answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c93e75e4574a46aaa21045d662a8e3\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: So yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ffcb7d35184901928d62841bc7fda3\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: This was alluded to a little bit by the Hon Tau Henare when he did talk with some clarity. As our whakatau\u0101k\u012B tell us, before we set forth on any journey we must be sure we know the full pattern of the stars before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes a legal entity that is both more easily subject to Crown control, we say, and less expressive of tino rangatiratanga. It is great for the Crown, but it is not so great for the Treaty partner. We believe the solution lies in rephrasing the problem in terms of how to make the Crown recognise M\u0101ori governance entities as formulated by M\u0101ori. A different starting framework could have come up with something quite different. We have to wonder, if wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi had been given the opportunity to create their own governance model to determine their own governance entities, what would that have looked like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt comes down to rangatiratanga. It could have been quite different. The bill could have reflected the k\u014Drero that was laid down at Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa in November at a hui held specifically to explore a kaupapa M\u0101ori organisational framework. The hui was stimulated by the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu pepeha, \u201CM\u0101 te rango te waka ka rere\u201D, which refers to the importance of having the foundation correctly prepared in order for a project to be launched successfully. Literally, the rango are the rollers used in the launching of a waka. So when an important waka was built, the trees for the rango were taken at the same time that the tree for the waka was taken. They had their own karakia, and had to be treated with the same degree of care and respect as the waka itself. If the preparations with respect to the rango were not properly carried out, then the waka would not be properly launched and, therefore, it would not glide speedily into the water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThrough this line of thought a paper was provided by Ani Mikaere at the hui, and it demonstrates the importance of having a strong contextual footing before any project is established. She stated: \u201CHow should we view the Waka Umanga Bill? It may well incorporate aspects of tikanga, thereby modelling the cultural sensitivity that the Crown proclaims to be in accord with its Treaty obligations, but clearly the accommodation of tikanga values within a Western legal framework is a totally different prospect to the acknowledgement of tikanga as the supreme law of the land.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the same hui Annette Sykes argued that tikanga M\u0101ori, with its ethical foundations in whanaungatanga, manaakitanga, and kaitiakitanga, should provide the basis for law in this land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5d1786743a4106b0be0591bc20b898\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be misled by Annette Sykes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e564608d49e499a9f2f1a71eac9fa9f\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is all very well for Dr Mapp to say, but she actually tried to make a positive contribution. Her response to the waka umanga proposal was that in seeking to define authority within Western imperatives, Western frameworks, and processes of k\u0101wanatanga, the waka umanga proposal was in itself a further denial of the fundamental right of tino rangatiratanga affirmed into Te Tiriti o Waitangi. And this is the key issue. The Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill may well incorporate aspects of tikanga, but clearly the accommodation of tikanga values within a Western legal framework is a totally different prospect from the acknowledgment of tikanga as the supreme law of the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe overriding recommendation of the hui held in November was in recognition that any such governance model needs to be developed by M\u0101ori. We in the M\u0101ori Party recognise that even though the Law Commission did seek to consult M\u0101ori, it was consultation with a restricted agenda, so the possibility for wide-ranging options to be considered was similarly limited. If the Law Commission had undertaken a different process, then it may well have come up with something quite different. Tangata whenua attending the hui at Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa opted for that difference. They suggested that hap\u016B and iwi should be given the time and space to come up with their own governance models, and that the Law Commission assist in that project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOf course, we are fully aware of the risks of opposing a proposal such as the one addressed in this bill. We know the argument that the proposed law will be an improvement on what we currently have. Well, in formulating the waka umanga concept, the commission has striven to create a mechanism that is \u201Cspecifically shaped to meet the organisational needs of M\u0101ori tribes and other groups that manage communal M\u0101ori assets\u201D. And, yes, of course that is an improvement on the status quo, and we look positively on that, but at the end of the day it is still a Crown measure that accommodates tikanga in some way. In this way it is but another subordination of tikanga M\u0101ori to the laws and philosophical foundations of other world views and Western frameworks. Ani Mikaere in her paper How Will Future Generations Judge Us, asked the people at the hui to consider that as tangata whenua their cultural survival demanded that they look to tikanga M\u0101ori for solutions, and encouraged them never to lose their ability to imagine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo, in summary, we remember the message of the pepeha: \u201CM\u0101 te rango te waka ka rere\u201D, and the importance of ensuring the foundation is correctly prepared in order for a project to be launched successfully. The questions raised at the hui and by some of our leading analysts and thinkers throughout M\u0101oridom make us all the more aware that the foundation for this waka is not yet on steady ground. We will support the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill at this first reading to ensure the voices of Te Ao M\u0101ori are brought to the table. But we will be alert to the question that haunted the hui: how will the future generations judge us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00224e0080bcb5fc4ac59c5192691caa94b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e0080bcb5fc4ac59c5192691caa94b4\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very short call on this Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill after having heard significant and mostly useful arguments about it. The Greens will support having the bill go to a select committee. We think it is worthwhile\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b5990f5b7044b7ae3c36c917444f0b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s great. Here we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9d4268311542f6a2a9b322a663f209\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Henare has finished, I say that we think it is worthwhile having this bill proceed so that we can see whether it really will meet the needs of M\u0101ori or whether it is too structurally focused on providing for the needs of the Crown and, particularly, the Office of Treaty Settlements. But it is certainly true that the nature and structure of governance entities has been a serious problem in the Treaty settlement process. Arguments about governance entities have held up some settlements for 5 years or more, and the blame for that lies squarely at the feet of the Government and of the Office of Treaty Settlements, because they have argued for their criteria for a governance entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a6ae11af8342e4977b907028eac95c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: This won\u2019t fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222917339bdc08432ea983d44993abb20d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee can shout and slap his hands on his desk, but that is not a particularly useful way of dealing with the arguments about the merits or non-merits of the legislation, which I am trying to elucidate to some extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa0cf9cbd34045cda29a8f2897407121\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please, the interjecting is just too much. We need to hear the speaker and we just cannot over the member\u2019s interjecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ce6fd80fb844b28fe51469ce258ac4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, ask her to stay relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d81bcbe5f6024565ab661e535f20fcea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I am ruling on this point of order. I am asking you and Mr Henare to just give the speaker a fair go, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6be7cfbc30544549cdc4a0496b35801\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker. As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted by the National members, the Office of Treaty Settlements is largely to blame\u2014in fact, I think it is solely to blame\u2014for the delays that have been experienced by iwi M\u0101ori who are trying to get their settlements through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens have never been strong advocates of the settlement process and we have criticised every settlement. We do not believe the settlement process is fair, and until it has been completely revised in accordance with the needs of M\u0101ori as opposed to the needs of the Crown, it will always be a fundamentally\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c74638b9b48403ca3dd60a413101e97\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Henare, I will now ask you to desist. The member has really gone over the top in interjecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728060da698147ac83d6455866fe0c48\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: In what way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261206cfc323347749fa53616db46501c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Henare, I am on my feet. I will give you a warning. I am asking you now to desist. I think you have interrupted every speaker in this debate tonight quite extensively, and I am just warning you that it is going over the top. I have ruled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a5fae562204169a7d2e68b4be8431d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6db287c6e644595af109a6b54407aeb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have ruled on that simple point of order and I have ruled that the member\u2019s interjections are too disruptive for the order of the House. I am not taking any argument on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae4f11d2bdbf4191942a88b5aade8a9b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Can you point out to me in the Standing Orders where it allows you to shut down one person in the debating chamber? The Standing Orders state that I have a right to interject in a \u201Crare and reasonable\u201D way. You might not think the interjections are reasonable, and you may not even think they are rare, but I do have that opportunity to interject on any speaker in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c86cf8235040479580d16ffd1b328eab\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have been very tolerant towards you, Mr Henare. It is my decision, and my decision is from Speakers\u2019 rulings and the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022411bced1018e404782bb7e1259cd77ae\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9058bc077143d3917353220d127203\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. If the member is going to argue with me, the member will leave the Chamber now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4ac2c59a3646528c396bf35f61af29\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek a point of clarification. Are you saying that I am not allowed to interject in the next 35 minutes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d75a0ddb6c482b953768713bd28322\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is trifling with the Chair. He is questioning my ruling. The member will leave the Chamber now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c47c92b3c4c4574bb9aa75e2a1fd2a4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276890c0f9134516ac9c2c7b3a5bace8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The member will leave the Chamber now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225382929a54274c53ba56c3aefdfd92b1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I am calling for a point of order\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220826264fbaf749b49260f9975ccae7d1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated, Mr Brownlee. I am dealing with one matter, and the matter is that Mr Henare is leaving the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022178025b412504ed8a10f89a183775da9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That was an extremely unfair act, in our opinion. Mr Henare has every right to interject on a speaker, as has any member in this House. I have to say that in my time in this House I have heard far worse interjections on speakers than that offered by Mr Henare tonight. The appropriate course of action would have been for you to suggest that in order for the speaker to be heard, her speech should be heard in silence, a position from which there is absolutely no recourse for any member of the House. But to simply single out a member and ask him to leave the Chamber is to be completely unfair, and I think it contributes to disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f202bbc99904df6a1a665a9f5f9a7a4\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: I want to just say that during my speech of 10 minutes Mr Henare continued to interject for the whole 10 minutes. There was not 5 seconds when he was not making an interjection in that speech. In my particular case I chose to ignore him, but he continued to do that afterwards and, having been given a warning by you, he continued to ignore that warning. I have to say that I believe the action you have taken could very well have been made long before it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc723b0743694b5592f650d782c4043a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I would say to Mr Brownlee that Mr Donnelly is perfectly right. I think I have been overly tolerant of Mr Henare. However, I will not debate it with the member. The point is that I have made my ruling and the member was certainly guilty of misconduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f2eb66394824afb8094100538f26f59\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: We hold the Office of Treaty Settlements fully to account for its delays and its behaviour in creating the delays for settlements, particularly around governance entities. As I was saying before, we do not support the Treaty settlement process; we consider it to be inherently flawed. But at the same time, our people are engaged in that process and are trying to do the best that they can for their people, so in the meantime we have to find mechanisms to make it easier for them to get proper justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ETo that extent, we are prepared to consider the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284de546d23b541bd8b527e309eb95057\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Stand up when you\u2019re speaking. Stop slouching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a4ebf1c041f4c03937690c5defc18b6\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I say to Mr Brownlee\u2014and have it go to a select committee. Then we will be able to get people to come in and we can hear their submissions\u2014[Interruption] Mr Heatley is making really helpful comments about personal etiquette, which was nicely done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI know that there was a consultation process, and my colleague from the M\u0101ori Party has outlined a lot of the serious concerns that were raised during that time. We are always reluctant to force M\u0101ori to have this continual round of consultation, where they are perpetually ignored. They are always asked for their opinion, which is then largely dismissed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a97140c0054734ae0f4c0e451dc319\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019re going to pass more legislation to make them do it all over again. How stupid is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022086453affb4948a1aca41779ed866abc\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: It is a risk. I agree with Dr Mapp, who so rudely commented on Annette Sykes earlier even though her view is the same as his. Even though she agreed with him on the point that the bill was not a very good idea, he was still very rude about her. The point is we have to be very careful about that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBut in the meantime this bill is before the House. Let us see whether it is possible to remedy the problems with it and see what other options come out of it. As we know, the purpose of the select committee process is to look at what can be done to fix legislation, and we are prepared to be constructively engaged. If in the end it turns out that there is just not the support for it, that it is not able to remedy the issues it is designed to remedy, and that it will cause more problems or will be used as a tool by the Government and the Office of Treaty Settlements to force M\u0101ori into a specific kind of governance structure and will not enable them to have the more creative solutions they are putting forward, then we will not be supporting it any further than that. But it is worthwhile having that exploration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens take a constructive approach to legislation. We would like to see a real discussion had about this matter by the House and by Parliament as a whole. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8a409df706440a98ca98df4332f8d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8a409df706440a98ca98df4332f8d80\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I have two points. The first is that I called well ahead of Ms Turner. Secondly, the Chair appears to have recognised that New Zealand First and the Green Party are both parties that support the Government ahead of the official Opposition. That seems to me to be somewhat unfair, particularly in regard to the fact that the Standing Orders make it clear that whoever gets to his or her feet first should get the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294595bbea6c34cc891eb15334b2969ab\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is perfectly wrong on that point. It has nothing to do with being a competition as to who stands first, at all. [Interruption] Please be seated, Mr Brownlee. I am on my feet ruling on a point of order. I warn the member not to try the Chair. The point I would make to the member, and I would have thought the member knew this, is that there is an order of speaking and we are following that order in this first reading debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226e31fa1466c742c1974292d3513c32d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e31fa1466c742c1974292d3513c32d3\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Would you be good enough to tell the House where I would look in my copy of the Standing Orders to find a contradiction to the Standing Order that states that whoever makes the call first gets the call, because this is a new ruling. Could you could simply tell us, Madam Assistant Speaker, when it became a Standing Order of this House that there is a predetermined order for speaking. We know that that is the case in question time, but it does not exist in any other debate other than the general debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002260557fa98b0c453fb7507db6e34a178c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260557fa98b0c453fb7507db6e34a178c\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps I can assist the member in his request. If he looks on page 41 of the Standing Orders, he will see how the Speaker determines who speaks. There has been a longstanding provision in this House\u2014as long as I have been here, anyway, and that is a fair while\u2014that the Speaker generally picks speakers alternately from the Government and the Opposition. But when the Opposition has had a fair number of speakers, and there are a number of speakers from minor parties, it has been the tradition that the Speaker picks those who have not yet spoken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222a2262100a204b1db32c49a2b814bff1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a2262100a204b1db32c49a2b814bff1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Duynhoven points right to the dilemma that the House now faces. Standing Order 101, under the heading \u201CRules of Debate\u201D, states: \u201Cwhen two or more members rise together the member called upon by the Speaker is entitled to speak.\u201D In this case, two members did not rise together. One\u2014me\u2014rose well ahead of anybody else and received the call. Standing Order 102 talks about \u201CFactors to be taken into account by Speaker in calling members\u201D. The rules\u2014and members need to read them, because the House should understand what is going on here\u2014state: \u201CIn deciding whom to call, the Speaker takes account of the following factors: (a) if possible, a member of each party should be able to speak in each debate:\u201D. That would be a good idea if we were a Parliament in which parties were equally represented. We are not; we are a Parliament in which the major Opposition party is overwhelmingly represented in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESecondly, Standing Order 102(b) states: \u201Coverall participation in a debate should be approximately proportional to party membership in the House:\u201D. That is fair. But the proviso is if it is possible. Thirdly, Standing Order 102(c) states: \u201Cpriority should be given to party spokespersons in order of size of party membership in the House:\u201D. That is a disputed Standing Order, as the Speaker will know. Most minor parties have one person representing a range of spokesmanships, which means that that Standing Order completely contradicts the idea of any speaking arrangements being proportional. Last of all, Standing Order 102(d) states that in deciding whom to call, the Speaker takes account of \u201Cthe seniority of members and the interests and expertise of individual members who wish to speak.\u201D I think that the weight of these Standing Orders, quite rightly brought to the attention of the House by the Hon Harry Duynhoven, falls overwhelmingly in favour of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u002263af9f212aaf4543b6bd392b38c68089\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263af9f212aaf4543b6bd392b38c68089\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The previous member made the statement, when he raised his first point of order, that there was a Standing Order that said that the person who took the call first should get the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a4481e93d843bd85c06cd9eff4e4e8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: 101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e7d1ca26bc4cf3a7357acbb656db42\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, it does not say that. In fact, the member has just got up and disproved his case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250006aa9b07e44bbbf4b6d2caaa44686\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind the member that Brian Donnelly was on a point of order. Nobody interrupted Mr Brownlee. As I said before, it is not a race; it is up to the Speaker\u2019s discretion within the Standing Orders. I remind the member that it is the Business Committee that has agreed to an indicative order of calls, which we have certainly been following for the 5 years that I have been here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002272933a33ff34408db0ba62d3ee5c9842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272933a33ff34408db0ba62d3ee5c9842\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022069daaf2979741c98776f3b364e48441\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I have ruled on the matter. The call is going to Judy Turner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558fbeae4e294e1db5dadd9e12633aba\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That is OK, but I have a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a17bd0a77ba64f6caf15c0485da98951\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a different point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218ff2fdf68a4941a1eaf2a2cf6fc5b9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order, Madam Assistant Speaker. You cannot ask me to indicate what my point of order is, then decide whether it is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224faa6499df204b1588cf81580eacdc51\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I am not going to take another point of order from you on the point of order that I have already ruled on, which concerned the speaking order. That is how it is. I have given the call correctly in terms of the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6d3f58711d74c609713056bab1c4baa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6d3f58711d74c609713056bab1c4baa\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I fully accept that you have made a determination and that that is what will happen, but I would be most interested to know on what day the Business Committee decided there would be an order to speaking in the House. I have sat on that committee for some 8 years and do not recall that decision being made by the Business Committee. If I am wrong, please tell me the day on which that decision was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4fba439dff47ee9844a22d1d78f886\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to go back to the minutes of the Business Committee meetings in order to find out when it made that decision. These decisions are made at the beginning of each term. The committee has looked at the proportionality of Parliament. As I said, it is an indicative order that the Speaker uses to go by. That is exactly what I have done, as per the Standing Orders. The Clerk has just told me that the decision was made on 8 November 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc8bdc9137e24183a740d480735600d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc8bdc9137e24183a740d480735600d4\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I offer my sincere apologies. I must have been away that day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d196c15027467aa8ab8680a2fd536e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d196c15027467aa8ab8680a2fd536e\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future\u2019s introduction to this bill happened about 6 months ago. We were invited to a briefing that was apparently kick-starting a second round of consultation on the matter that this bill seeks to address. The first round was a series of 15 information hui that were conducted during October and November in 2006, when Justice Durie sought feedback on proposals for legislation contained in the Law Commission report 92, Waka Umanga: A Proposed Law for M\u0101ori Governance Entities. What came out of his round of consultation was that tribal authorities felt that the existing legal provisions did not always provide adequately for tribes. For example, they pointed out that incorporated societies, where the law prohibited financial gain as an objective, often did not suit their needs. Companies are designed for individual investors, not for the management of communal assets. Trusts manage assets for beneficiaries rather than at their direction, and charitable trusts are ultimately responsible to the Attorney-General rather than the affected people. Based on that kind of feedback, and a range of other things that came out of that consultation process, the ongoing work on this bill continued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ELet me talk about some of the other concerns that Justice Durie highlighted as a result of that process. There were some real concerns around the issue of formation that there were major and debilitating disputes on how organisations should be formed to manage tribal affairs and assets. As the Green member Metiria Turei mentioned, these disputes often delayed a settlement process while they were being worked through. The second consideration was that there was no independent and fair process for the ready resolution of such disputes, so these disputes went on and on with no clear process in place to help settle them. The third concern was that the Treaty claims process had become overly determinant as to how tribes are being shaped for future generations, and there were some concerns around that. The fourth concern was that the interests of smaller hap\u016B groups may be washed out by larger settlements. The next concern was that there were no clear policies on voting rights for regular marae supporters and absentees, and that the courts were reluctant to intervene on tribal formation disputes. All of these were issues that were raised during that process of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThere was an additional concern about the fact that at present there can be no finality about who represents a tribe in legal proceedings, commercial transactions, or consultations. Therefore, United Future\u2014and I am taking only a brief call\u2014is happy to support this first reading because it seems sensible to us, and it seems to honour the dialogue that has happened to date. We support this bill being referred to a select committee so that tribal groups can further investigate this option to see whether it has merit and whether it has any application for the legal needs that they have, and therefore we are happy to support this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a964a4c06304407eabb0e1a0d1415d3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a964a4c06304407eabb0e1a0d1415d3c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E It has been fascinating to sit in the House tonight to listen to the speeches that really do convey the sort of Uncle\u2014and Auntie\u2014Tom approach that so many political parties have towards M\u0101ori in this country. The most disappointing speeches of all have come from the M\u0101ori Party itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI recall that the M\u0101ori Party was established because the group who established that party did not like the foreshore and seabed legislation. They went from one end of the country to the other, saying that that was the worst form of colonial suppression and land-grab upon M\u0101ori ever seen. They enlisted the support of M\u0101ori up and down the country, on the basis that they were going to have some sort of new renaissance for M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori leadership, and for M\u0101ori governance in this country. Then they came trotting into this House tonight, voting for a bill like this, which confirms all of the worst aspects of the way M\u0101ori have been treated in this country since the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that simply puts a M\u0101ori name on the institutions of the colonial Government and of the modern New Zealand Government, and makes M\u0101ori say \u201CForget about all of your iwi affiliations and all of your traditional ways of doing things, and fall into line with the way we expect the law to be administered in this country.\u201D, which is in total disregard of M\u0101ori culture and the history that M\u0101ori have always had in this country. It absolutely staggers me. I think it is amazing that we have so much law in this country specifically for M\u0101ori. There are those out there who say \u201CWell, if you start saying that, you are somehow a racist. You\u2019re picking on M\u0101ori.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut the worst finger that goes on M\u0101ori in this country comes from this country\u2019s statutes themselves. There are so many laws specific to M\u0101ori. I cannot understand why normal property laws, if we are to adopt them, have to be so different for them\u2014and M\u0101ori have adopted them, by the way; they say \u201CYep, OK, we\u2019re going to go with those.\u201D Why does there have to be a separate court for M\u0101ori to go to? Why do we have to have a different name for some sort of M\u0101ori trust structure? Why do we have to have different arrangements for communally owned property for M\u0101ori? These are simple points, and it staggers me that M\u0101ori are standing up in the House tonight, one after the other, saying \u201CWe think this is a great thing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe know that Mr Parekura Horomia is basically not a bad bloke. But he is hell-bent and determined upon doing the business of his political party, which has always been about making M\u0101ori subservient to its political views. Absolutely! If we take just a few moments to look at serious progress in the last couple of decades for M\u0101ori, we see that none of it has been about imposing control on M\u0101ori; all of it has been about saying \u201CTake the lead that you know you can, and get on with it.\u201D I find it amazing that somehow the National Party is the villain in tonight\u2019s debate, when in fact it has been the National Party that has been so willing in the last couple of decades to address Treaty of Waitangi issues, to recognise that there was grievance, and also to step outside the circle and say \u201CThere is a group of people in this country who can do well for themselves, so let\u2019s create an environment in which they can do it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhat really is irritating is that some of the advantages that will come to the country in a wider sense from that approach, will be lost if we keep driving down the lines of this sort of legislation. I give the House one simple example of that. In 1992 there was the fisheries settlement. There are a couple of interesting things about that. Firstly, at that point no one really knew how big the fishery was. It was just out there, and there were people fishing it, and there were foreigners coming in, doing joint ventures, and cleaning out the seas, left, right, and centre. Occasionally a new species was found. That was fished to death, and let go. So there was a decision to say \u201CLet\u2019s put some sort of a quota and some sort of a boundary around what we catch in our seas.\u201D, \u201CLet us be fair about it and say that there is a traditional fishery via the M\u0101ori in this country.\u201D, and, \u201CJust for simple purposes let\u2019s allocate, among this artificial quota, 20 percent for M\u0101ori.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhat has been the effect of that? The effect has been that New Zealand has remained in control of its fishery, and that M\u0101ori now control more than 50 percent of that fishery. It has been acquired by commercial means and through good practice, and it is also maintaining an industry that could easily have been lost to this country. That is an advantage not just to M\u0101ori but to the whole country. That was a simple, simple exercise that recognised a group of people who had an interest, and a capacity, to look after something that was of use and value for the entire country. It was perhaps the best exercise of a property right we have ever seen, post-1840.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENow we come down to this particular bill. I remember my time on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee where we had numerous occasions to talk to M\u0101ori trust boards, left, right, and centre, and numerous occasions to haul in the M\u0101ori Trustee\u2014a heck of a nice chap, but doing a hell of a job. Huge amounts of land inside this country were owned by M\u0101ori but were of no use to them because no one was looking after the land. Here we have a bill that simply puts a flash name over the top\u2014Waka Umanga, a M\u0101ori name\u2014but the bill perpetuates exactly the same sort of uselessness that has bedevilled M\u0101ori for years, for decades, ever since the Treaty of Waitangi. I do not think one speaker who spoke in favour of this bill tonight has given one positive reason why the House should support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to know if some of those people out there, who maybe have even a minuscule interest in some M\u0101ori land, will be advantaged by this bill. The answer is no; they will not. Nothing will change. The people who have managed to get themselves into a position inside the M\u0101ori structure, and who have then used the law of the land with the exclusions it has particularly for M\u0101ori, will continue to control those assets and the benefit from them. But I do not know how Parekura Horomia, who I said before is a good bloke, can reasonably say that this bill represents progress for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELet me go through the rest of this bill. We have titles like \u201CGovernance\u201D. Well, I would have thought that it is no business of this Parliament how a group of people who own property should structure their governance. No one tells me how to do that. No one tells me how I have to own my property. No one tells any others who are individuals in this country the way to own their property and the way to run it. But, oh no, the M\u0101ori\u2014well, they are a little bit thick, a little bit dim, a little bit slow, so we had better have a special law for them! It is the worst form of Uncle Tom patronisation that we could possibly get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2a7f837abc40b0b34ab9a8f599a035\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Iwi Kiwi! \u014Crewa speech! M\u0101ori special privilege!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225087aeaad71a498491aa7f1fe6facef4\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I get sick to death of people who happen to have a M\u0101ori name railing against the idea that M\u0101ori might make progress, simply because they have their own perverted view of what democracy means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAs I go through this bill I look at terms like \u201Cpublic good outcomes\u201D. Well, there is always a public good outcome from the ownership of property if it is well administered. Why does it have to be recognised in a bill specifically for M\u0101ori? I look further through the bill and I see terms such as \u201CGovernance, management, and other matters relevant to registered waka umanga\u201D. Why does this have to be so different for M\u0101ori from any other form of ownership of assets? Why is it that M\u0101ori, apparently, cannot make up their minds and cannot make their own decisions? Why do they have to be patronised and held by the hand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMy experience of looking at good Treaty settlement processes over the last 20 years has been that M\u0101ori will prosper extremely well. I come from the South Island. We have only one tribe down there, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955e6b045f714777900ba1a9aa923929\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but his time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00225aa9aec6d4c2419697978abf854ea667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aa9aec6d4c2419697978abf854ea667\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I do not intend to take a very long call on this bill, but it is worth mentioning that it should be sent to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. If ever there was a reason to speak on a bill that advantages M\u0101ori, this is the one to speak on. That member of the Opposition\u2014the member who has just resumed his seat\u2014is a stark example of the difference between the Opposition and the Government. The Opposition wants to lock M\u0101ori into a way of thinking that there is only one type of law that should apply to everybody, and not recognising that with property law\u2014property law, of all the laws the member points to\u2014the fundamental difference between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 is collective ownership of land. That is the fundamental difference. So he is showing his ignorance in huge magnitudes in this House tonight, and that shows that the National Party at no point in time will ever recognise fundamental differences in the way that M\u0101ori operate in this land, and that is sad. It is sad, because there have been two speakers from the Opposition\u2014Georgina te Heuheu and Tau Henare\u2014who, frankly, should know better. What they are saying tonight in this House is that M\u0101ori should lock themselves into governance structures that do not meet the needs of current-day development aspirations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhat is the fundamental difficulty with the M\u0101ori Trust Boards Act? Who are M\u0101ori accountable to? They are not accountable to their people but to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2014to the Crown. That is the shackle the National Party wants to perpetuate, and that is a shame. It is a shame that two National Opposition members in this House who are M\u0101ori want to perpetuate that type of governance structure. But there is more than that. There are a number of models, which the good member for United Future spoke about, that do not quite fit the current-day aspirations of M\u0101ori collectives and M\u0101ori iwi organisations who want to modernise the way in which their governance entity operates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other myth perpetuated by the Opposition was that this bill was solely driven by the Government. It was not. This was a considered piece of work that was done through the Law Commission. It was led by Justice Durie, someone who is well known to the Opposition and well known across this House, who has a standing well beyond that of the parliamentarians in this House. To perpetuate the myth that this bill has not been at all consulted on throughout the country I think is dishonest. It makes me so concerned about the type of leadership that National members might provide to M\u0101ori that we really have to expose them for who they really are, and that is dishonest and not able to achieve the aspirations that M\u0101ori want to achieve now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other part of this debate that concerns me is in part the argument put up by the M\u0101ori Party. Although there is widespread recognition of the collective benefits and interests of M\u0101ori as they exist within their iwi and hap\u016B, and their need to develop their own aspirations and ways forward, the reality is that in order to bring them into today\u2019s world and to help their economic development aspirations they have to have an entity that can actually take them forward\u2014a vehicle for today. That is all this bill is. No one has said that this vehicle would be compulsory. No one has said that this vehicle would determine the way in which M\u0101ori have to operate in the future. However, it is a vehicle that, should it fit the desires of iwi and of M\u0101ori organisations, could be looked at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIt is worth picking up on a point that Metiria Turei raised in respect of Treaty settlements. I hope that once this bill gets to the select committee, the select committee will consider the way in which a waka umanga model will help the transition for iwi who are currently organised as either trust boards or incorporations, so the transitional provisions might be well considered by the select committee. But the other part is in respect of those iwi who are currently in negotiations over their Treaty settlements and whether the establishment of a waka umanga could cut across the types of negotiations that are currently happening with the Crown. It is certainly not the intention, but should the select committee concern itself with investigating this matter, then it would be time well spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ECan I say that of all the discussions that have gone on tonight\u2014and at 5 to 12 at night some of them may have been from a bit of an intoxicated rabble\u2014one thing we on this side of the House cannot stand is plain, dishonest mistruths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2cd3b62fca4fb6954b1efca8d320ca\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I will raise this point of order, but I rather hoped that you might have noticed what the problem was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b6271c9fa0746e0ac9d99e1580aba82\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065cc1e02a634e6c95f44d78f30990af\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: If the cap fits, wear it. I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a919ae8eea49e783fd505aafe5805b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The member needs just to withdraw that remark, with no other comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d39b637a54412abcf549b925843bd8\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3cbc4675e84a48a697598645683539\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d0288d86654633a14d7a05175134b1\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: One thing that cannot stand in this House is the perpetuating of an argument that simply is not the truth. Really, what this legislation aims to do is to free up M\u0101ori to be able to look at a model\u2014a new vehicle, if you like\u2014to be able to go forward. That is all it is. It is not compulsory; it is voluntary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EShould M\u0101ori want to amend the charter to better fit and suit their needs, there is provision in the bill to do that. There are transitional provisions that enable their current entities to move into a waka umanga type of vehicle. Perhaps the best opportunity here is the opportunity to better reflect where the benefits of any sound economic development model should go, and that is back to the collective, back to the iwi, and this bill provides for that. It is not about shareholders. It is about ensuring that one\u2019s collective aspirations can be advanced. It is about modernising opportunities for M\u0101ori. It is about ensuring that they are better able and geared to enter into economic development opportunities, which we will see will advantage not just M\u0101ori but this nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI think that all parties in this House should support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, if for no other reason than to have a very robust discussion about the way in which M\u0101ori will continue to advance their interests for the benefit of all New Zealanders. I commend the bill to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002268893240ba7a4f0c9f9c4c8af27d8ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268893240ba7a4f0c9f9c4c8af27d8ac7\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will be brief, because I think the position of the National Party is reasonably clear. We will not be supporting this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI begin my speech by referring to what the Rt Hon Winston Peters said on 19 December 1990 when he was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and was introducing the Runanga Iwi Act Repeal Bill. He said: \u201CM\u0101oridom today needs policies based on the future and not on some dream-time imagery in the minds of cultural fellow travellers and social engineers.\u201D All I would say is \u201CAmen to that.\u201D [Interruption] It is a shame that Mr Donnelly does not understand that as he lapses, in the closing stages of this career, into political correctness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ENational opposes this legislation for a number of reasons. First, we ask: why the urgency? We received a briefing on this bill some months ago, so why the rush at the end of the year? A very important question\u2014and one should always ask it in relation to any legislation\u2014is whether the legislation is necessary. Labour Ministers never stop to ask this basic question, nor do they ever ask themselves whether a particular issue is already covered by a statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071211fed990c3ae9e4620bfa8af424495999c001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9f4f19960284e2e91fdffb85d5df817\u0022\u003ETuesday, 11 December 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe481b15b65f4753979bab24036e7ac1\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 13 December 2007)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c5b475ac4824defa2e2f02af2b7f19f\u0022\u003EWaka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c9f94b4e0994c6dab5354bc8192a8a8\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002291e553368c2e49c4ace3a93a08bf039e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291e553368c2e49c4ace3a93a08bf039e\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would you mind if I asked Dr Pita Sharples to start the day with a karakia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9f2d60a7244246bd772fe6c128d24e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is most unusual, but is there any objection to that? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022859322a27e8c4e1991e0b32734172c35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022859322a27e8c4e1991e0b32734172c35\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E When I was concluding my 1 minute 20 second contribution last night I said that an important question we should always ask ourselves as legislators is whether the legislation is necessary. But it seems that in this case, as in many other cases, the Labour Ministers have not stopped to ask this basic question, or to ask themselves the question about whether the issue they are seeking to address is already covered by a statute. They have to be seen to be doing something, whether it is proposing a review or having an inquiry. They always look to control, to regulate, and to prescribe. Indeed, it seems they are never happier than when they are here in the Chamber introducing prescriptive legislation like this crummy effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe National Party says that the need for the legislation has not been demonstrated. We do not subscribe to the theory that Parliament can legislate and then we can all try to work out what the law is and why we need it. The Minister said there was a pressing need for the bill, but he really gave us no compelling reasons. Instead, we had his usual recitation of words like, \u201CWell, there is a clear need.\u201D, or \u201CThere is a pressing need.\u201D But repetition of phrases like that, like a mantra, does not prove, indeed, that there is a need. As I said last night, when I quoted from what Mr Peters said when he was Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2014and I emphasise what he said\u2014\u201CMaoridom, statutory organisations, trust boards, community development committees, Maori incorporations, and the Maori Congress do not need to be inundated with a further 50 incorporated runanga, or, possibly, 72 quasi-governmental authorities disbursing funds from the taxpayer.\u201D That is what he said on 19 December 1990 in the context of the Runanga Iwi Act Repeal Bill. What he said then applies with equal force to this particular legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThat highlights the difference between the National Party and Labour. Labour likes control and regulation. Its members like to pass unintelligible legislation so that they can try to keep control, and we can see that with the disgusting Electoral Finance Bill. Our view, of course, is quite different. Why not let M\u0101ori choose whatever structure they like\u2014whatever structure they think is appropriate and will work? I have not seen any evidence that iwi have been demanding or requesting the establishment of a body like a waka umanga. So where is the demonstrated need? We say it is simply not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESecondly, as one of my colleagues said last night, this is a structure proposed by the Law Commission, and then further developed by bureaucrats in Wellington and sent out to iwi. It is so typical of this know-all Labour Government. It believes it knows what M\u0101ori want. It says to iwi \u201CLook, we\u2019re here to help.\u201D, but we all know that the most terrifying sentence in the English language is \u201CI\u2019m from the Government and I\u2019m here to help.\u201D Why cannot M\u0101ori decide for themselves how they will manage their affairs? If legislative intervention is required to assist a particular iwi, then Parliament can help out. That is the way Te Runanga o Ngai Tahu Act 1996 was developed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut let us look at what is proposed here. Once a waka has been recognised by the M\u0101ori Land Court, if the Crown intends to settle historic grievances with iwi, then it has to do so through this Government-imposed waka structure, not with the body M\u0101ori choose for themselves. I refer members to clause 11(1), which states: \u201CIf a waka p\u016B is the legitimate representative of a tribal group for the purpose of entering into negotiations to settle a Treaty of Waitangi claim with the Crown, the Crown must not negotiate or settle with any other person or body claiming to represent the tribal group in relation to that claim, except as authorised by the waka p\u016B in accordance with its charter.\u201D I also note as an aside Clause 11(2), which provides that \u201CTo avoid doubt, nothing in this Act requires\u2014(a) the Crown to negotiate in relation to, or settle, a Treaty of Waitangi claim;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI should not have thought that that was going to be necessary, at least in relation to this Government, because the Government does not know how to negotiate or settle claims. Its record over the last 8 years has been disgusting, and no belated flurry of activity in the 9th and final year of its term will be of any moment whatsoever. The arrogance and superciliousness of this Government is best exemplified by a statement from its solicitors, the Law Commission, in its paper on waka umanga. \u201CRegistration under the proposed Act provides tribes and general-M\u0101ori groups with a stamp of approval;\u201D. Well, why should M\u0101ori require some kind of official stamp of approval from that lot? M\u0101ori do not need a stamp of approval from the Government. They know that. As Mr Henare said last night, their social organisations have been around for thousands of years. It is only this Government that thinks that some kind of stamp of approval is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo National will not be supporting this bill. Let me make the position of the National Party clear beyond doubt: iwi should be free to develop their own structures, with their own administrative procedures and measures of performance, so that iwi can make their own decisions about what is important to them. National considers that iwi must be independent of the Government. M\u0101ori should be in control of their own future. They should not be subjected to a paternalistic Government whose Government-knows-best approach is rooted in colonial times. So for these reasons National intends to oppose the first reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u00225c186583dd974c0890d89f30efa22d2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c186583dd974c0890d89f30efa22d2a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E After that supercilious and patronising speech I will just place it on the record that the Government and I, as an individual member of Parliament for Auckland Central, think that this Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill is a very good bill. The bill gives options for M\u0101ori, who, as business groups, have been ignored and often sneered at by members opposite. I endorse the work of this Minister, and I look forward to this bill being well debated and well discussed at the select committee by M\u0101ori and by other New Zealanders. It is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc5a23dbfb6e47b78d07580c54ad5ae4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022687e979ac6c64265b55a705cdd3e6019\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022687e979ac6c64265b55a705cdd3e6019\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, despite Standing Order 195(1)(b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4d9cb9e07ce448d95985b1e69e6d1fa\u0022\u003EAffordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287e8328305124382a03afc12cb443524\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00227afd0d678914469885acb3e9cda06325\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227afd0d678914469885acb3e9cda06325\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Local Government and Environment Committee. The Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill enables territorial authorities, as it says, to promote the provision of affordable housing to low and moderate income households in a way that encourages mixed communities. The bill will provide new powers to local authorities to help solve affordability problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EHousing is becoming increasingly unaffordable. More working households are locked out of the housing market because of escalating house prices in relation to household incomes. In Auckland alone, the number of working households unable to buy a modest house that meets their needs rose from 20,400 in 1996 to 54,900 in 2006\u2014an increase of 169 percent. At the same time, starter homes are not being built in new developments. Houses are increasingly getting bigger, with more modern amenities, making them too expensive for first-time home buyers. In addition, more people are renting. Renters have become a more diverse group, including households with children and older renters, who will increasingly out-compete single-parent and single-person households that have traditionally relied on the rental sector. Without affordable rental options, households are spending too much on rent and less is left for other essential living costs, including saving a deposit to buy their own home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EA lack of suitably located affordable houses has economic and social consequences. People live further away from work and have to spend extra hours commuting, at a cost to families and to the environment. Without a range of house types within neighbourhoods people have to move out of their community if their housing needs change. Homeownership has significant social and economic benefits. It can promote greater family stability, improve the connections with communities, and create continuity of education as well as community stability. Homeownership also provides long-term security and a buffer against poverty before and after retirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill gives territorial authorities the ability\u2014not the compulsion\u2014to require some affordable housing to be built in new developments, or to contribute money or land towards affordable housing being built elsewhere. Territorial authorities have been asking for this legal clarity and this mandate for some time. The Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill is enabling rather than prescriptive and provides a robust and transparent process for any territorial authority wanting to use the new powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EOnly those territorial authorities that want to do so need to develop an affordable housing policy. The bill requires territorial authorities to carry out a housing needs assessment so that they have a clear picture of housing need in their areas. Based on this assessment, territorial authorities can develop an affordable housing policy that sets out how they will respond to the housing need. The territorial authority must consult with its community before adopting any housing policy. An affordable housing policy will form part of the territorial authority\u2019s long-term council community plan and will, therefore, be a public document. It will state what is required of developments, how any contributions will be collected and used, and what models the territorial authority may put in place to make sure any resulting housing continues to be affordable for future community needs, and this is a very important provision in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ETerritorial authorities can choose how they keep housing affordable. A territorial authority could, for example, vest a house in a community housing trust that sets up a shared ownership scheme or rents the house to a moderate-income household. Alternatively, a house may have a deed restriction that preserves its affordability over the long term. Territorial authorities will also need to consider what incentives they can provide to developments that are contributing affordable housing. The bill permits territorial authorities to use a range of incentives to offset the costs of providing affordable housing. For developers, this is an opportunity to target housing at a growing segment of the housing market. The bill is designed to encourage affordable housing, not deter development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ESafeguards will be put in place to ensure that any affordable housing contributions are considered reasonable by the community. Territorial authorities will have to consult with their communities before adopting an affordable housing policy, and that policy can be appealed to the Environment Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe bill will also prevent the use of covenants on land titles that aim to exclude social and affordable housing. These covenants, which are used in urban areas in particular, unfairly discriminate against some of our most vulnerable people, such as older people, children, and people who require assisted living, such as people with intellectual disabilities. The use of such covenants is a small but growing issue. The bill does not aim to address building costs. Nor is it the purpose of the bill to address land supply or land price issues, although it may have a positive effect on these in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill is one of a number of tools that will be necessary to address the housing affordability problem. It is only one tool, but it is an essential one. The Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill balances the need of the community for affordable housing\u2014and what is wrong with that\u2014with developers\u2019 needs for consistent and predictable planning guidelines. The bill promotes housing choice through ensuring that a range of housing type, tenure, and cost, to meet the needs of moderate-income households, is being built into new developments. I commend the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00223be55335c2f140719bca9ffb6087757f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223be55335c2f140719bca9ffb6087757f\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will not be supporting this legislation, quite simply because it does nothing that matters in a climate where, for the last 5 or 6 years, property prices for both land and buildings have got out of reach for tens of thousands more New Zealanders. Many of them are young New Zealanders, but the Minister ignores the fact that many of them are also older New Zealanders entering retirement, who would love some sort of accommodation stability. In a climate where housing is getting out of reach for more and more New Zealanders, the Government has tabled legislation that it heralds as its magic bullet, but all it does is give district councils more and more work to do at the expense of their ratepayers, and give builders and developers more and more paperwork and regulatory hoops to jump through, costing them more. Quite simply, they will pass those costs right back to the first-home buyer. The question the National Party has is why the Government does not do something that matters. There are lots of things it could do to address the appalling housing affordability problem that would actually do something for first-home buyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EFirst of all, we found out through the housing affordability inquiry, which the National Party called in front of the Commerce Committee\u2014and which the Prime Minister and the Minister of Housing at the time said was not necessary\u2014that developers, builders, first-home buyers, consultants, university representatives, those in the Department of Building and Housing, and all sorts of others say it is the cost of land that is driving up property prices, more so than the cost of building. Are building costs driving up property prices? Yes, absolutely, over and above the cost of inflation, but their effect is nothing like the cost of land in driving up property prices, overall. When I say \u201Cproperty prices\u201D I mean the cost of building and the cost of the land underneath. So the land component is driving up property prices much more than anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Government says we need to free up more land for development so that the supply-demand equation is met. That is land on the outskirts of cities, and new land and land within city boundaries. At the moment if a couple, say an elderly couple, want to split their section into two or four sections, which would supply more housing for those in the market, the lengths they have to go through, the hoops they have to jump through in terms of local council regulations, or of legislation that this Government has given councils, mean that it is all too hard. Why would a couple within the city boundaries of Auckland want to split their property in half? It would take 2 or 3 years and cost tens of thousands of dollars. They would have to consult with someone in Bluff, if the local council wanted them to, because through the Resource Management Act anyone can object to anything, anywhere! That is the first thing. Why does the Government not make sure that more land is freed up for subdivision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAfter 8 years of this Government and 15 years of the Resource Management Act, everyone up and down the country on the front line, not just to do with housing but also to do with electricity generation and transmission, road building, telecommunications, you name it\u2014anything to do with infrastructure\u2014is saying that the Resource Management Act needs to be streamlined. This Government has ignored that call for 10 years. How can it be that a subdivision in Whangarei can be objected to by someone living in Invercargill? How absurd is that! The hoops one has to jump through quite simply have to be fixed so that builders and developers are not paying $10,000 to $30,000 per section to get their applications through the Resource Management Act process. When they have to pay $10,000 to $30,000 through that process they slap it on the price of the section, and the first-home buyer ultimately pays it. But this Government ignores calls to streamline the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe have seen two or three pieces of amending legislation to the Building Act brought before the Parliament in the last 3 or 4 years. Has the Government made it easier to build better houses? No it has not. If builders want to shift a window 3 inches to the right they have to submit more plans to the council, get more consent, and have more visits from an inspector. Does that make the house any less leaky? No, but it certainly slaps another five or 10 grand on top of the price of housing for first-home buyers\u2014just another bill they have to pick up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ELastly, housing affordability is made up of two components. Firstly, skyrocketing property prices have occurred over the last 5 or 6 years because supply has not met demand. Secondly, take-home pay has not kept up with those prices, and interest rates have gone through the roof, to a point where they are the highest in the developed world\u2014at roughly 9 to 10.5 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ELet us take the interest rate component first, before we look at take-home pay. Interest rates have skyrocketed in the last few years simply because of the Government\u2019s poor management of the economy and its unproductive spending. It is unproductive spending to pour billions of dollars into health but not provide for more doctors, nurses, and operations. It is unproductive spending to pour billions more into health and billions more into the bureaucracy but not provide for more operations, more doctors, or more nurses. Unproductive spending drives up the costs in the economy. This Government will pour money into the Ministry of Education, but it will not provide for more teachers or for teaching more children. Unproductive spending has driven up interest rates in this country, and first-home buyers pay the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe second aspect is take-home pay. If only this Government would recognise that a significant tax cut to those young families who are trying to pay off a mortgage would make all the difference in the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e959c18e9b914f9689f8ea8abd243177\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5d731c38df749598ccfaf4a27917221\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Labour members mock me. The Government has railed against tax cuts for 7 years, but with an election looming\u2014less than 12 months away\u2014and people across the country saying they are sick of the Government wasting taxpayers\u2019 money, Michael Cullen has done a U-turn and said: \u201CWe\u2019ll do tax cuts.\u201D But the country does not believe that Labour will give tax cuts, because it is so reluctant. The Government does not want to do it. I tell the Government that a difference in take-home pay\u2014a tax cut for young families\u2014would make all the difference in the world when it comes to being able to service a mortgage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational opposes this legislation because it is so convoluted; it will not help first-home buyers\u2014certainly not today. Councils that pick this up have to do a study in their districts, which will take 12 months, and then they have to include it in their long-term community plans. That is just lovely! That will take another couple of years. So 3 years down the track, if councils want to, they can invoke this. The interesting thing is that Queenstown Lakes District Council is doing this at the moment, without this shoddy legislation. Unbelievable! How is it that we are having to pass the first reading of this legislation in the debating chamber today, yet the Queenstown Lakes District Council is doing this at the moment, without this legislation? National will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00223a9061dfb4f1448e874aee03df30c9bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a9061dfb4f1448e874aee03df30c9bc\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a brief call in support of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. Before I begin I observe that we have just heard a most extraordinary contribution from a member of a previous Government that gave us leaky homes and, of course, the Resource Management Act; but those discussions I will keep for another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI am pleased to speak in support of this legislation. I refer Mr Heatley and his colleagues to the bill\u2019s title. This is another example of a pattern of behaviour that Labour has demonstrated since 1999\u2014of working with local government to achieve solutions that it is happy with. The solutions that happen in each area will be determined by local communities, not by people who rely on the free hand of the market to mess up most things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI compliment my colleague the Hon Maryan Street on the introduction of the bill. It meets, and will begin to address, some of the challenges that this Government and this community face. The first challenge, in the wider housing area, was the assault by the previous Government on the State housing stock. The community has not forgotten that members opposite, who are bleating right now, tried to cover, with a most unsuccessful smokescreen, the fact that National sold over 13,000 State houses. The other pattern of behaviour that has contributed to some of the difficulties that we all acknowledge in our community in this area right now is the interesting and extraordinary behaviour of the banking and non-banking financial sector. Clearly, people who have not been required to put equity into loans have unfortunately exposed themselves more than prudent investors would have done in terms of the housing market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAs the Minister said earlier, this bill is one part of a palette of initiatives that will address those challenges. First of all, we have the work that the Housing New Zealand Corporation is doing right now in our communities in terms of replacing, reconfiguring, and restoring our housing stock; secondly, we have the initiative around the Welcome Home Loan scheme; and, thirdly, we have the very, very great success of KiwiSaver enrolments. Members will be aware that we were expecting KiwiSaver enrolments to be at 300,000 at this point. Well, they are already at 316,000, so the end-of-year target has been well exceeded. That will be very good news for a large number of New Zealanders when it comes to moving into their own affordable housing. This involves work with local government in order to enable what is appropriate for its communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAs the Minister said in her first reading speech, this bill is one of a number of tools that will lead to further productive collaboration with local communities, and it will help New Zealanders to build their communities in the shape in which they want them to be built. I am pleased to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00224ef142803b5d411e91ec595a22cb2c50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ef142803b5d411e91ec595a22cb2c50\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E The disappointing issue about this Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill is that, after 8 years, all the Labour Government can promise is a survey. I have heard and I have read that the new Minister of Housing, Maryan Street, is quite promising, but her first initiative is to promise a survey. She tried to say to the National Party that we should not be too worried about this bill because it is not prescriptive, that no one has to do anything, and that no territorial local authority will force anyone to do anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EYou know, in some respects that is our fundamental complaint, is it not? This particular response is pathetic. The best that her hard-working department and her hard-working Cabinet team can come up with today is a survey, and the ability, I guess, to make a few by-laws\u2014an ability not for the Government but for local authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI guess she will go out next year to the voters of New Zealand and say: \u201CVote for Labour because we are going to fix your housing problem with a survey. That is our solution, and, in fact, we did such a good job of it that we sought to pass the legislation through urgency, because that is how important the survey is.\u201D I have to say to the Minister that it is simply pathetic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIf a survey is Labour\u2019s response to the front-page article in the New Zealand Herald today that shows an increasing gap of wealth between Australians and New Zealanders in housing affordability, frankly it is not surprising that more and more New Zealanders are making the choice to go to Australia. Last year 40,000 New Zealanders moved to Australia; 40,000 New Zealanders made a vote of no confidence in the Government. That is the truth of it. New Zealanders are moving to Australia because they are sick and tired of this Government and its lacklustre response to all sorts of problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Government could have done a whole raft of things. My colleague Mr Phil Heatley pointed those out: more land availability and fewer prescriptive building regulations. I just point out to the Minister\u2014she may not know this, you see\u2014that in Wellington City, according to the council, as a result of the Government\u2019s building legislation, people now have to provide 300 pages of documentation and 12 A3-sized plans just to build an ordinary house. We are not making this up; these are Wellington City Council\u2019s own figures. That is a tenfold increase from just 4 years ago. I know there has been a leaky buildings crisis, and I know that things had to be done to fix that up, but multiplying the paperwork tenfold is not a solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EEarlier this year I went to a forum in Auckland run by Arthur Grimes. He identified the most critical issue for housing affordability as the lack of urban land for subdivision. He specifically identified metropolitan urban limits as driving up land prices, and he had a huge amount of data on that. My colleague Mr Phil Heatley was also there. We read that material. I want to share something with members: not a single Labour person was at that meeting. This is important research. Arthur Grimes is a highly respected economist and there were hundreds of people at that meeting, but not one member of the Government was there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EArthur Grimes identified the critical problem as being lack of land availability and because the metropolitan urban limits have not shifted for well over a decade. What has this Government done about that? It has done absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e445b502f7648a59e13d3b516f3a44b\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What did the National Government do about infrastructure for Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eefe33aad00940f299a8df204fe312bc\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: We did do things, actually. I say to that member that we had the economy growing. This Government is simply missing the big picture. It does not understand that the real causes of the housing issue are problems such as lack of land availability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second point, I might add, is clearly stated on the front page of the New Zealand Herald today. New Zealanders are too poor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c2116c5b124d8f829beafca3418f52\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well it must be true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227746ccf2766840af8be6cbbc96b50fd8\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Do members hear that? Labour hates the New Zealand Herald at the moment. The Prime Minister is saying: \u201CWe hate the Herald. The Herald is unprofessional and does not know how to do journalism.\u201D That is Labour\u2019s approach, and the Minister of Housing has joined her plaintive voice to that chorus, as well. \u201CWe hate the Herald.\u201D is Labour\u2019s mantra. I guess we will hear a bit more today in a certain third reading about how Labour hates the New Zealand Herald. Why do Government members not go and read the New Zealand Herald and read the data that says New Zealanders are poorer than Australians? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere are some key reasons for that. One of the fundamental reasons is the tax situation. Labour has not given a tax cut on rates or thresholds for nearly a decade. In fact, its only response was to increase taxes in 1999. In the last election Labour promised to change the thresholds. Do members know what it has done now? It has broken that promise. It has broken that promise to New Zealanders, and National will be reminding them of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EToday, New Zealanders are paying more in tax than Labour\u2019s promise indicated, and they are doing so because Labour broke that promise. If it had kept that promise then there would be more money in the hands of New Zealanders. That is actually how people pay for housing. I know that is a startling revelation, but if people have more money in their pockets, then they can pay bigger mortgages, they can buy properties, and we can actually solve the housing crisis. But Labour ignores those obvious steps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAfter 8 years in office, Labour\u2019s best approach is to have a survey. If that party is saying: \u201CWell, National is concerned about housing affordability,\u201D\u2014we are\u2014\u201Ctherefore it should be voting for this bill.\u201D, then we say no. We say no because it is simply the wrong solution. Actually, it is not even a solution at all. Why call it the wrong solution? It is no solution to go out to the public and say that the approach to this issue is to have a survey and to perhaps just give the option to local authorities to have a little bit of affordable housing here and there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ELabour will ignore the real issues, of course. It will ignore the Resource Management Act, it will ignore Arthur Grimes, it will ignore metropolitan urban limits, and it will ignore reducing taxes. It will ignore all of the things that matter. It will ignore all of the things that would reduce the cost of housing and make housing more affordable for hard-working New Zealand families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders know that. They have seen this Government in action now for 8 years. They know the Government has failed and, frankly, young New Zealanders are voting with their feet. This Government should be alarmed by that article in the New Zealand Herald today. Actually, the Minister was alarmed, but the Government has no solutions. It has alarm but no solutions. And when the new Minister comes up with her magnificent solution under urgency it is to have a survey. National will not vote for a survey. We are voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00226fef214d1b924727a43657e0b405c5dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fef214d1b924727a43657e0b405c5dc\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take, hopefully, just a short call. It is interesting, is it not? I actually enjoy listening to my colleague over there, Dr\u2014Captain\u2014Wayne Mapp. But I have to say that I get tired of these M\u0101oris who cannot pronounce English, who are all the time standing up and talking about \u201CNew Zillun\u201D. Mr Mapp had me wondering for a while which country he was referring to. Here in New Zealand we have had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d094dd5f5a7442a3a60e11324b96dc1b\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Blame my Kiwi accent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206432740fcf8405d8c66dc9dc20a05d5\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Mapp is not M\u0101ori\u2014that is right. Not being able to pronounce the Queen\u2019s English properly is the sort of mistake that we often get accused of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI guess the fact that we are talking about affordable housing here in New Zealand says a lot in itself. Many of us simply want to focus on ensuring that those vulnerable New Zealanders have housing. Affordability has become the issue because of a range of things that have happened in this country. We must remind ourselves where these things started from: they go back to the 1980s. There was a time in New Zealand when people considered that it was part of the great Kiwi dream\u2014it was a right\u2014for every New Zealander to aspire to owning his or her own home. That was something that we just took as read. It was not taken for granted; it was the way it was in this country. I remember very, very clearly as a young boy growing up in Pahiatua that New Zealand was known as the country of the quarter acre section, pavlova, and the flagon of beer. We proudly talked and joked about New Zealand being the home of rugby, racing, beer, and homeownership. That was the way it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI remember a great leader of this nation, a man whom many of us admired. Having lived in the Waimakariri for so long and in Canterbury, on and off, for 30-odd years, and having campaigned in Kaiapoi, I am very familiar with that great man, Norman Kirk. When I came into this House I actually quoted one of Norm\u2019s statements. His words\u2014and I hope I get them exactly right\u2014were: \u201CPeople don\u2019t ask for much. They simply want somewhere to live, somewhere to work, someone to love, and something to hope for.\u201D That pretty much summed it up, did it not? That is the Kiwi dream. In a nation that has always prided itself on being very egalitarian, classless, and very conscious of its obligations socially to those less advantaged, housing was always key to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI guess what is sad is that in the argy-bargy that goes on between the two old parties, Labour and National, both seem to forget a couple of things. The reason that Labour is in this position of trying to do something to make housing affordable and therefore available to those who have been priced out of the market is largely due to the economic reforms of the 1980s and the way in which, philosophically, the Government of the day\u2014in fact, there were two of those Governments, one after the other\u2014moved towards user-pays and a businesslike approach through all of the social agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824a1c338fb24293842922953a4be871\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d824be363bb440b3a7bf33e475a4c73d\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Bradford agrees with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the National Opposition of the day railed against many of these changes. It debated and campaigned and told the whole of the nation that Labour was a horrible, nasty Government that had forgotten its roots, had forgotten where it came from, and had forgotten what it stood for. Then National got into power in 1990, and by crikey it ramped things up. It set to and sold State homes from one end of this country to another, and none of us will forget the fact that certain members of Parliament within the National caucus profited out of that. They took advantage; they bought some of those State homes. That is the history; that is the background. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThen, of course, to compound the problem, we had these two Governments, which, one after the other, opened up the doors to rampant, uncontrolled immigration, and we got the consequential effects of that. When I got to Parliament in 1996 I opened up my electorate office and started taking in work as a list MP\u2014we all do that, and some people tend to forget that list MPs actually do constituency work, particularly in constituencies where the constituency MP is lazy or is not particularly liked; one gets a heck of a lot of work out of those MPs, and one quickly comes to know who those MPs are. One of the things that really annoyed me was finding New Zealanders, citizens of this nation, who had paid taxes, worked hard, and strived to bring up their children, who were in desperate situations\u2014like a matrimonial break-up or a mum with two kiddies\u2014and were quickly trying to get into a home only to find that there were no emergency homes available in Christchurch because they were chock-a-block full of refugees, asylum seekers, and other people who had been brought into this country and given priority over New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First members shake their heads. Pita Paraone has asked the previous Minister of Housing, Mr Chris Carter, so many times why it is that the prioritisation of housing allocation in this country does not go to New Zealand citizens. Why is it that we have all these foreigners, who are given the privilege of residency and of coming into our land to take up employment, and who get here on the basis that they have the means and the wherewithal to support themselves, being given a Housing New Zealand Corporation house while a whole bunch of New Zealand citizens who were born and bred here end up on a waiting list unable to get one? New Zealand First is absolutely unashamedly for putting New Zealanders first, not foreigners who have been given the privilege of residency and who are allowed to come here and work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThat is one of our great disappointments when we look at the Labour benches and at the Labour Government members, particularly Chris Carter. He just did not get it, did he? He still does not get it. It is not a question of saying to those residents who have been given that privilege, that honour, of coming to our land and starting afresh that they will get some assistance. We have given them the assistance; we have let them come here. They said in their applications that they had a job to come to, they had qualifications, they fitted all the criteria, and they had the money to support themselves and to look after themselves. But then, hello, somewhere along the line they get a Housing New Zealand Corporation house. Then we wonder why we have a housing issue for New Zealanders\u2014citizens of this land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will support this bill going through to the select committee, because we are interested in hearing the debate. We have heard some good arguments put up by Phil Heatley, and we have heard the counterarguments on the other side of the House. Those arguments are best played out in the select committee, so let us hear them. Let us not delude ourselves: the reason we are in this situation is that there has been faulty, flawed foreign investment and a faulty, flawed immigration policy, and we have no understanding of the pressures that we create in the real estate market when we allow people to come into this country and simply buy up what they want, then move offshore and manage what they have bought from offshore. We have no care and no concern about the impact on low-income or moderate-income families who simply want one thing: somewhere to live, someone to love, and somewhere to work. They want that Kiwi dream and the right to own their own home, and we need to remember that when we manipulate the economy and start talking about market forces, because the losers are always the vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002219d0175a204d4341bfde0b6c0ef06233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d0175a204d4341bfde0b6c0ef06233\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is pleased to be supporting the first reading of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, which is in front of us this morning. As I think every political party in this House realises and accepts, barriers to homeownership are huge at present, and the percentage of people in this country owning rather than renting their housing is dropping all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ELike other members here I am sitting on the Commerce Committee\u2019s affordable housing inquiry at present, where we are hearing a large number of excellent submissions all stressing the enormity of the problem we face, and the complexity and range of possible solutions. I find it very ironic that Mr Heatley and Dr Mapp from the National Party are opposing this bill, given that National actually called for the housing affordability inquiry and, like the rest of us, it has been hearing the realities of what is going on out there. This bill at least presents us with one small and rather tentative part of the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn respect of this I am glad that the Minister and the Government have seen fit to change the name of the bill to more accurately reflect the limited scope of what it seeks to achieve. In its original form the bill was labelled the Affordable Housing Bill. One of my main objections at that point was to the fact that the name was rather grandiose in the context of legislation that attempts to achieve only a very small, incremental, and non-binding improvement to one aspect of a much larger crisis. I was concerned that somehow the Government was conveying the impression that it could sort out the housing affordability problem with just one bill, perhaps for political or tactical reasons, but I am sure that this would have backfired when people realised its limitations. So I commend the Minister and the Government\u2019s common sense in bringing the title back to a more realistic reflection of what the bill might hope to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party certainly supports the underlying purpose of this bill, which is to enable local authorities to develop and implement affordable housing policies in relation to new developments. I have been aware for some years now of the sterling efforts being made in the Queenstown district, by its local council and others in the community there, to try to turn back the tide on its becoming simply an enclave for the wealthy. That district has had a crisis for decades with the shortage of affordable and available accommodation for workers and their families. For example, a recent study found that someone on the average income in the Queenstown Lakes district of around $63,000, or $1,227 a week, would spend about $900 a week servicing an interest-only mortgage on a low-end house in the area\u2014with \u201Clow-end\u201D being around the $500,000 mark. With tax as well, the homebuyer would have only a few dollars left to live on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn response to this situation, the council is working hard at strategies to help homebuyers, both through the council\u2019s partnering with a local housing trust and the Housing New Zealand Corporation to work on a new affordable housing scheme, and through plans to add new rules, definitions, and incentives to develop affordable housing for over 2,000 households by 2016. I commend the Queenstown Lakes District Council for its progressive and far-sighted efforts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI contrast these with the attitude of the new Auckland City Council, which seems to have the opposite approach, despite Auckland also having one of the biggest problems with unaffordable housing in the country. A meeting is happening in Auckland today, I believe, that will evidently decide whether to break an affordable housing contract that the council signed up to earlier this year, when it formed a partnership with the New Zealand Housing Foundation to build about a hundred affordable homes over the next 5 years. This is trifling compared with what Queenstown is attempting to achieve, but even this small, worthy, progressive first step by Auckland City may be doomed because of John Banks\u2019 apparent commitment to reverse any socially responsible policies, now that he is in charge again. And this is despite the fact that although Auckland prices might not be quite as bad as Queenstown\u2019s, it does take nearly a whole average wage to pay off an average mortgage on an average house in the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI understand that one of the motivating factors for the Government in bringing forward this bill at this time is that the Queenstown Lakes District Council may have run into some legal and technical difficulties in being able to do anything about requiring developers to include affordable housing in their plans. I think it is great that this bill aims to break the deadlock over this, and that where a council has a will, it will be able to go through with its planning once this bill goes through. Councils will have legal certainty about pushing forward with planning, which is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAt the moment, it is apparent that the regulatory tools available to councils, including the Local Government Act 2002, do not directly address the issue of affordable housing. This bill will allow those territorial authorities who choose to do so to develop an affordable housing policy that specifies what actions a developer may be required to undertake, on the one hand, and what the council must do, on the other hand, to help compensate the developer\u2014for example, through excusing payment of development contributions, having rates remission policies, providing direct funding assistance, or applying things like a density bonus. Before a council can do any of that, it has carry out a housing needs assessment and consult the community about the development of an affordable housing policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party thinks that all this is grand. Our only problem with it is that it is completely optional, and that only some councils will choose to go down this path. I am sure Queenstown will take the lead, and I hope it will be followed quickly by places like Wellington and Christchurch, which seem to have a comparatively progressive attitude towards accepting that there is a council role in helping to house the local citizenry. However, in places like Auckland City, Rodney, Northland, and others, I fear we might see quite a different approach, despite a very high housing need among low and middle income earners in those districts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party believes that housing is a fundamental social good and that it is a basic human right for all citizens and residents, not just for some. We believe that not only central government but also local government must play a leading role in developing policies that ensure that everyone has their basic housing needs met through either renting or buying their homes. Therefore, although we will be supporting this aspect of the bill as far as it goes, we would prefer it if the Government were to go a lot further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe believe that all local councils should develop affordable housing policies, after undertaking needs assessments and consulting well with all stakeholders. All councils where a housing need is identified should be required to put together policies that require developers to facilitate the provision of affordable housing, as per the trade-offs allowed for in this bill. All councils should also be willing to facilitate the release of surplus land to help with future land supply for community and State sector housing, and where need exists they should also be actively building more housing themselves and supporting community sector social housing initiatives. Thus, our main problem with this bill is not with what it sets out to do, but with the fact that it does not go anywhere near far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOne further aspect of this bill that I have not mentioned so far is the element that brings to an end restrictive covenants on developments that attempt to exclude any or all affordable housing from those developments. This tool has been used with increasing frequency in the Auckland region. I am not sure about other areas, but it is certainly a feature in our part of the world. Such covenants prevent the Housing New Zealand Corporation and other social housing providers from buying or leasing properties within a development. This means from the developers\u2019 point of view, of course, that covenants are keeping property values high while keeping low and middle income people out. But from a social justice perspective, they are increasing and rigidifying the gap between the haves and have-nots that, sadly, is already increasing in this country, as it is in many parts of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn a small way, this provision within the bill is a microcosm for a decision about which way we want Aotearoa to go. Do we want a future where the rich live safely within their gated communities and secure compounds and no riff-raff are allowed within the walls? Or do we want a country that still has some notion of social equity and a fair go for all? The Green Party totally supports the removal of the power to place exclusionary covenants on developments, and I congratulate the Minister and the Government on taking this step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3b6f415bc254f57b2b8150eb246a56c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3b6f415bc254f57b2b8150eb246a56c\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. The link between decent housing and good health is well established. Indeed, for centuries, the saying \u201CA man\u2019s home is his castle\u201D has represented the concept of a man\u2019s home reflecting his identity and character. Even in te Ao M\u0101ori we say something similar: He matua pou whare, e rokohia ana; he matua tangata, e kore, e rokohia\u2014the main ridge pole of a house will always stand, but not so a person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFor far too many citizens of Aotearoa New Zealand, and in particular for more and more M\u0101ori and Pasifika, the problems of housing affordability are rapidly eroding these longstanding values. This bill seeks to remedy these problems by providing councils with the tools to address housing and rental affordability. But for many of our wh\u0101nau the low level of incomes, and the fact that many M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau have young children and larger families, poses real challenges for suitable housing options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOn top of that, developers are building larger and more expensive homes, the starter-home market is shrinking, a property price boom has seen the rate of homeownership plummet in recent years, and today hardly any low to medium income wh\u0101nau can even consider buying a home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI will share with the House some staggering statistics on housing affordability and homeownership that show that fewer than 30 percent of M\u0101ori own or even partly own their own homes, compared with 65 percent of non-M\u0101ori. Of those who do own or partly own their own homes, only 6.7 percent are M\u0101ori. Of those who rent their homes, 67 percent are M\u0101ori, compared with only 44 percent of non-M\u0101ori. And with rentals of $275 a week in Auckland and $211 a week in Wellington dramatically eroding the standard of living for far too many of our people, even rental affordability is becoming a major issue for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI would like the House to consider the critical state of available housing options in this country, particularly in light of a national forum held at Te Papa Tongawera less than 10 days ago. There we learnt that homelessness is becoming a significant and growing problem for people moving between temporary forms of shelter, for people living in boarding houses or other inadequate housing, and for people forced to sleep rough in parks, streets, deserted buildings, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EDr Guy Johnson from the Australian Housing and Urban Research Institute has analysed the frightening reality of the homeless population. He told us that 75 percent of homeless youths become homeless adults, that 30 percent of all homeless people were first homeless in their youth, and that there is a growing population of people who have been homeless for much of their life. The effects of this are apparent in a life characterised by a lack of continuity and certainty, anxiety about the constant search for where to go next; the disruption to education or employment prospects, and the increasing likelihood of exposure to violence, discrimination, and exploitation. As a consequence of such a lifestyle, physical and mental health decline, and the impacts of isolation and alienation are profound. In the land of plenty, these increasing levels of homelessness are an indictment on our society and a condemnation of this Government\u2019s current housing policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI also refer the Minister to the very valuable resource published last August by the Family Centre social policy research unit and the research centre for M\u0101ori health and development at Massey University. The study\u2014Maori Housing Experiences: Emerging Trends and Issues, by Charles Waldegrave, Peter King, Tangihaere Walker, and Eljon Fitzgerald\u2014confirms the fall in M\u0101ori homeownership rates, and catalogues the issues of overcrowding, inadequate heating, and substandard housing as critical factors in any discussion on the status of M\u0101ori health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe know that the economic conditions we have regularly profiled in this House have also had a massive and adverse effect on the ability of wh\u0101nau to afford adequate housing. We note that this bill enables, but does not require, councils to assess the level of affordable housing in their districts. Given the dire circumstances surrounding M\u0101ori housing and the access to appropriate housing in Aotearoa, we are keen to know why such an assessment is not a core part of the business of local bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party commends those councils for pushing for legislation to help resolve the desperate housing crisis we are in, and encourages local bodies\u2014particularly those in and around Auckland and other high-growth areas\u2014to respond positively to the lack of affordable housing in their regions. The M\u0101ori Party urges the Minister of Housing and her ministry to consider the vital need for policies that will help to house the homeless and prevent homelessness. The M\u0101ori Party urges the Minister to ensure that M\u0101ori will be involved in further developing M\u0101ori housing policy\u2014particularly around design and location and the conditions pertaining to M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis bill is worth supporting if it will genuinely promote the provision of affordable housing to low and moderate income earners. We will support it as part of our efforts to work with councils and any other agencies to develop affordable housing policies that can be taken up throughout Aotearoa New Zealand. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022126b21118053467a89b03837c63df714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022126b21118053467a89b03837c63df714\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak to the first reading of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. United Future will be supporting this first reading, because affordable housing is an issue that we are passionate about. But I will signal at this first reading stage that we have some concerns. We are not sure that this legislation is the solution, but it certainly is an opportunity to hear from the wider public, particularly those with a vested interest in the housing industry. Over the last few years members from United Future have had some very interesting discussions around the issue of affordable housing. I remember very acutely some of the issues that came up at the affordable housing summit in Wellington that we attended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe are concerned that this bill is an opportunity wasted, and that there could be more helpful things included in it. The bill enables, but does not require, territorial authorities to assess the level of affordable housing in their districts, and following that assessment it allows a territorial authority to develop an affordable housing policy and to implement it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe bill says that the implementation of that policy includes enabling territorial authorities to require developers to facilitate the provision of affordable housing, and it says in clause 12 that an affordable housing policy must state how territorial authorities might assist those developers who are facilitating the provision of affordable housing. Territorial authorities will be asked under clause 11(2) to consider in their policy development a requirement of a developer to include a proportion of affordable housing in a development. That is an area that concerns us, because there will have to be some fairly good incentives in there for developers to factor that into their thinking. I guess a territorial authority could include in its own plan an intention to free up appropriate land specifically for affordable housing. This would mean that when people were purchasing land for development they would understand what the intention of the territorial authority was. We are a little bit concerned that people who have invested in land for development will then discover, after the fact, that they have all sorts of requirements slapped on them in a way that I think could be extremely \u201Cbusiness unfriendly\u201D and unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the things I am acutely aware of is a discussion I had with one of the leaders of the Registered Master Builders Federation, who talked about the federation\u2019s estimates around the issue of compliance costs. It figured, allowing for reasonable and fair compliance on a residential property, that New Zealand homeowners could save up to $30,000 per average house if there were more sensible compliance regulations around housing. The fear being expressed at the time was that in the wake of the weathertight homes issue, the industry had become so risk-averse that it had a level of compliance around the building of houses that was unreasonable and that added to the problem of making houses unaffordable for middle to low income New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe recommend to the Government and to the committee that they look at some of the very fine work that has been done by the social policy unit of the Salvation Army, which has some fantastic recommendations about the way we could be making greater progress on the issue of affordable housing. We are not completely convinced that this bill reflects the kinds of suggestions that the unit has thoughtfully put forward, and that is of concern to us. [Interruption] The Green member is quite right: there are some positive things in this bill. I am not trying to say that this bill is not worth the paper it is written on; I think there are some interesting and positive provisions. I guess our fear is that those provisions do not go far enough and that they have some heavy-handed ways of approaching affordable housing that penalise the wrong people and do little for the people who are in need of affordable housing. But we are very happy to support the bill\u2019s first reading, because this is a discussion that must be had. United Future wants to reassure the House that we are supporting this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022 data-id=\u0022d63c5e6c1035483cb4b307a98be51c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d63c5e6c1035483cb4b307a98be51c76\u0022\u003EMARK BLUMSKY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. \u201CMy house, my castle\u201D is a term that is well used when people talk about their houses. I suggest that with this bill that may not be the case anymore. Under this legislation it could be that when people want to sell their houses, they will sell at prices that are not the prices they want to sell them for, or the prices they would expect, because in this legislation there is a caveat that will be placed to ensure that people\u2019s houses, when sold, will be affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003ENormally people would want to be able to sell their houses for what they are worth. With this legislation, they will not be able to. Other people will decide what their houses can be sold for. If a person gets one of these affordable houses, that is fine, but when that person sells it, he or she will not be able to sell it for the price that it may well worth\u2014someone else will decide the price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EPeople in this situation may say: \u201COK, fine, I bought my house cheaply; therefore maybe there should be an obligation to sell it cheaply to keep the affordable housing stock at a certain level.\u201D But I ask members not to forget that if a house is bought cheaply initially, it is because it was made cheaply. It either had a smaller floor plan, one garage less, or maybe not such ritzy fittings inside the house. A house bought cheaply as part of a bigger development will have some characteristics about it that make it cheaper. People will say: \u201CFair enough, I bought it cheaply, it should be sold cheaply.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EBut the problem is that when Kiwis own their own house, no matter what price they bought it at, many have a pride in it. It is their castle. They make adjustments to it, they develop it, they put on an extra room, they make the garden bigger, they add to it, they built on\u2014it is the Kiwi way. It is DIY, and it is what we do as Kiwis. They add value to the house because they love their house. But what will happen with one of these houses is that the owners ain\u2019t going to be able to get the value for their efforts in the house because someone else will decide what price they can sell it for, because affordability needs to be retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003ESo why would people bother? If they get one of these affordable houses, why would they then bother adding value to it? Why would they put in the effort? There is no upside. At the end of the day, they will have probably the worst house in the best street, because they will not bother. Their neighbours will love it when the person next door has the worst house in the best street. What could well have started as a pretty swanky, smart development with 20 houses\u2014a couple of them being affordable, and all of them looking pretty sharp at the start\u2014will, at the end of the day, be dragged down. It is the old story: the worst house in the street drags down the rest of the street. My goodness, there are a lot of people who have put their life-savings into investing in houses, and that investment will be impacted on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EIt is sad that the Labour-led Government, when it wants to make housing affordable and talks affordable housing, immediately picks on the developer to fix that. Why should it pick on the developer? It is because developers are a very easy target. There are not very many of them, so there are not too many lost votes. It is a bit like deciding: \u201CRight, affordable housing\u2014let\u2019s make the developers do the work. Let\u2019s blame them; let\u2019s make them carry the can.\u201D To use an analogy, it is a bit like deciding that kids need to be healthier. To make kids healthier we think they need to eat more apples, so we pass legislation that forces greengrocers to sell two apples every day to every customer. But the problem is that not everyone will want to buy those apples. Yet, if there is legislation forcing the greengrocer to give away green apples to the kids, they will be given away\u2014they will not be sold. And who will carry the cost of those apples? I can tell members now that it will certainly not be the greengrocer; it will be every other customer who will carry the cost. There is no difference in what this legislation is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EIn the last 24 hours I have managed to speak to a couple of significant property developers who build a lot of housing in New Zealand. I have to say they all endorsed the concept of affordable housing. There is no doubt that these people would love to see more affordable housing in New Zealand. But none of them felt that this bill and what it is trying to do is, in fact, the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EIt was thrown at me\u2014and I thought it was a very good point\u2014that when cars were first manufactured Henry Ford decided he wanted cars to be available for the masses, to be cheaper, so he developed the Model T. He developed an affordable car for the world to drive. He did it because he manufactured a lot of the same car. So it makes one wonder\u2014as it was thrown at me yesterday\u2014why we do not encourage one or two manufacturers to make the Model T of houses and develop and produce a range of houses that are all very similar, bulk produced, and available to be put on the land that becomes free. I thought there was some real merit to that. The only difference is that we would probably not want all the houses to be painted black as the Model T was\u2014the cars were any colour a person wanted, but they had to be black. By definition, if houses are mass produced in that way, they will be cheaper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EThen the issue just comes down to land availability, and that is when councils can play their role in this crusade on making sure there is affordable housing. A council can and does have a huge role in making sure that land is available. Councils can revisit their city boundaries. They can revisit the containment line that they put around cities currently beyond which development cannot go. Land on the other side of that fence could become available for housing, which it currently is not. I know Wellington City, for example, actually puts the containment line around Wellington City to force housing development to go to infill. We are suggesting that maybe that containment line should disappear to make land available for housing. The other thing that could happen is that councils, instead of selling land, could make land available for affordable housing and charge just a lease\u2014a rental of, say, 5 percent return on the leased property; a subsidised mortgage. A council could own the land and lease it to the housing owner on a perpetual lease. By having that subsidised mortgage the land costs become a lot more affordable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EOne has to wonder just how much difference this bill will really make. In a 20-storey apartment building with 120 apartments, 12 of those might be made to be affordable. If there were 100 of those 20-storey apartment buildings, there would be 120 of those apartments that may be affordable. At the end of the day, what difference will that make? I say that because in San Francisco, which is often used as an example of a place where there is good, affordable housing, in the last 10 years 278 affordable houses a year have been developed using the type of concept suggested in this bill\u2014that is 278 houses a year in a city of 7 million people. So we have to wonder whether this is the solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EThe bigger picture is the bigger answer and that is to make sure that personal tax cuts are delivered\u2014and the National Party will do that. The bigger answer is to enable people to have more money in their pockets, to sharpen up the regulatory regime, to keep interest rates lower, and to reform the development rules and make sure the Resource Management Act behaves\u2014because it certainly does not behave\u2014to make it easier to build a house. The bigger picture is the answer, not picking on developers and suggesting that that is the way to answer the problem\u2014it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u002298f7fc53e01f447c848d2b88864d3816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298f7fc53e01f447c848d2b88864d3816\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a brief call on the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. I certainly want to commend the Minister for her excellent introductory speech. I also take this opportunity to observe that even in Hamilton, in the Waikato, the issue of affordable housing is very important. I want to make a couple of brief observations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003ETo those people who say that all we need to do is create more greenfield sites, and that it is purely an issue of supply and demand, I ask them to have a look at Hamilton. The city has grown literally by about one-third or more in the last decade or two, with new greenfield sites. Have we had affordable housing sections in those new greenfield sites? No, absolutely not! So obviously legislation is going to be required to have some impact in order to create those affordable housing projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe other week the Minister visited Habitat for Humanity in the Waikato and met Mr John Gallagher, the chairman, and also Pete North. It was a fantastic meeting and I have to say I was exceptionally impressed, as was the Minister, with the wonderful work that Habitat is doing. I am hoping, as a result of this bill, that that will be one of the organisations that will be a partner in this context. We visited one of the residents of a Habitat property who is moving to own her own property and she said: This is not just about the bricks and the mortar\u2014the structure\u2014it is about having a home and a house that realises our dreams and aspirations, and lets us get on with our life journey.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThat was a very, very fantastic day. As the member for Hamilton West I give credit to that organisation. [Interruption] The difference between Labour members and Opposition members is that they talk, and we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbae937f0bf04ec0a2e9238853c86d7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbae937f0bf04ec0a2e9238853c86d7f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E What a laugh that is!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae13fe5b59f45c099488bf84e7cb761\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is he still here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf56be386874a77a76f3cbd4b7300c0\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Here I am again, and I will be here a hell of a lot longer, believe you me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe problem with the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, and why I want to speak on it, is that when we read this legislation we see that it does nothing. That is the sad part about it. I listened carefully to the speeches made by my friend and colleague Ron Mark, and also to those of Sue Bradford and Hone Harawira. I was interested in Sue Bradford\u2019s speech because it was quite negative about the bill and its likely outcomes. Ron Mark raised some serious questions about the bill. Hone Harawira raised issues about the need for affordable housing and then asked whether this bill would achieve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis bill is just typical of a Government that is failing, which brings this sort of legislation into an election year as window dressing. It is disappointing to think that the smaller parties might support this bill, not because of what its intention is but because of what it will actually do. When we study it carefully, we see that it will achieve nothing at all, other than to put significant costs on to the ratepayers of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat is the issue that concerns me, because we know this Government has put huge costs into local government over the time it has been in Government. This Government has passed 69 different pieces of legislation that have caused costs to local government and to ratepayers and that have caused a rates revolt. The Government has had to have a study on the issue of rating but, quite honestly, it has done nothing with regard to that, at all. But here they are passing more legalisation; if there is a cost at all\u2014and there will be\u2014it will be imposed on the ratepayers of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me take the House through the way that will happen and what this bill is going to achieve. My view is that the end result will achieve nothing. The bill basically says that if there is to be affordable housing, the first step that has to happen is that the local authority has to do some research to find out whether there is a need for affordable housing. That is strange. In the area that Hone Harawira and I represent, for instance, we both know there is a need for affordable housing, so I ask the House why we need legislation that asks that question and that says to local authorities \u201CYou have to go and research to see whether the area that you represent needs affordable housing.\u201D We do not need a law to find that out; local authorities already have the ability to go and find that out, and some of them do. We do not need to pass more legislation under urgency to do that. We do not need legislation that tells them to go and do that\u2014if they want to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second thing is the research, which will cause costs, bureaucracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024cd1372ffd49c99547e7f1fd4a133d\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850bd6eaab2f47eb928bc5d9d578a3f1\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it will hit ratepayers. What happens then? For local authorities, if they find out, much to their surprise, that they need the ability to do something in regard to affordable housing, the next step is that they have to put that into their long-term council community plans. We know what that process means. It means that it goes into the books, it means there are rounds and rounds of consultation, and it means there are discussions and opportunities to object and to debate, and to have meetings. So we will have not just 1 year of research but probably at least another 2 years after that of going through the long-term council community plans of the local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIf this bill passes and goes through in 2008 and we have not done anything about it by 2011, all we have found out is that maybe there is a need for some affordable housing\u2014well, hello! Do we not know that already? If it is done by 2011 and gets through the councils\u2019 long-term council community plans, they will say \u201CYes, we are going to address the issue.\u201D The issue then will be that we will have done nothing other than cost ratepayers a lot of money, discover something we probably already knew, and spend 3 years finding that out. I say that that is a waste of this Parliament\u2019s time, a waste of ratepayers\u2019 time, and a waste for the people who actually needed some help. That is the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe must also remember that we are talking about costs to ratepayers, because the Government is putting nothing at all into this affordable housing bill\u2014not a sausage; it is totally the responsibility of local government. I ask those members on that side of the House what consultation they have done with local authorities on this bill. I ask the small parties whether they have asked that question. I ask Ron Mark of New Zealand First whether that party has asked the Government whether it has actually consulted with local government on this. I can tell members the answer as to that consultation; the answer is \u201CNot a stitch.\u201D Local authorities are bemused by yet another cost. I ask Sue Bradford whether she asked the Government about what research it was doing with local authorities. I can tell members that the answer is \u201CNone.\u201D Local authorities are not happy with that, because they know that the bill will put more cost on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe have got to the stage where we have put the whole thing through research, and we have done at least a couple of years of long-term council community plans, so now we have to go through the audit process. The audit process costs local government and ratepayers a whole lot more money. So far, then, we have caused a whole lot of bureaucracy and cost to ratepayers for research, and we have had to go through the consultation of the long-term council community plans, at the cost of ratepayers and a whole lot of time and bureaucracy, and now that we are going through the audit process\u2014at more cost to the ratepayers\u2014the Government still has not put a stitch in. Michael Cullen is sitting there with his pockets bulging with money, but not one stitch of a dollar is going to address the issue of affordable housing. He is happy to make sure that the ratepayers of this country pay, when they are already stretched. Then, having done all that, someone will say they are not happy with the legislation and it had better be taken to the Environment Court. That will mean more cost. By the year 2011, and going maybe into 2012 or longer, the Government will still not have paid one stitch\u2014not put in a cent or a penny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe poor ratepayers of this country will have been asked to address an issue, but no one will have a house. Not one house will have been built at this time. All these people who need affordable housing will still be hanging in, saying \u201CIn 2008 the Government put up a window-dressing bill, trying to garner some support. But it is just a political ploy.\u201D And Government members will be going out and saying \u201CAren\u2019t we lovely; we are worried about you. We have got a bill called affordable housing\u201D\u2014that is what they\u2019ll say\u2014\u201Cwe have passed all this legislation to help you because you need an affordable home.\u201D They will not tell people they will have to hang on 4 or 5 years and continue living in their tents and caravans. The Government will not tell people that it is not putting money in but is expecting the ratepayers of this country to provide the funding. The Government will not tell people that it might never happen. The Government will say: \u201CWe are a good Government, and we are making affordable housing affordable. We have passed a bill. We know you have a need. We don\u2019t care if it costs the ratepayers of this country a whole lot of money.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis bill is good for the Labour Government, because it will stand on the stage and say that it is doing something. Well, that is a joke, and it will be exposed. I hope the small parties change their minds about supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a4e75390f53e424c84ed4ba97ab2bc23\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000133\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c150883c068c4cc188471021d2b11c32\u0022\u003EDog Control Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220602d17ecd5945ee8678971913becba4\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002201e460b5555947829919d9838cdf9e45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201e460b5555947829919d9838cdf9e45\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I move, That the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time. I intend to move at the appropriate time that the bill be referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EEnsuring safety around dogs depends on a combination of four principles: good law, effective enforcement by local councils, community support for the councils\u2019 work, and responsible dog ownership. Good law alone is not enough to stop dog attacks, and this law and the principles it embodies need to be supported by the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Government has made a number of changes to the dog control law and is looking to outlaw further lists of dogs in the future. In short, though, this bill requires councils to include in their dog policies any additional matters that are specified in regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe bill changes the way in which the law deals with menacing dogs. It requires a mandatory neutering of dogs that are classified as menacing, on the basis of their belonging to a breed or being a type of dog listed in schedule 4 of the Act. The bill simplifies the process for adding further breeds and types of dogs to that schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe bill continues the Government\u2019s work of keeping dog laws under review and constantly improving them, for the security of our communities. This bill is part of that ongoing process, and I therefore commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3b79e080f6c4db5964e636ffb48aa82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3b79e080f6c4db5964e636ffb48aa82\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the bill. National will support the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) being referred to the select committee, because this issue is of concern to New Zealanders. But sadly, this is a poor excuse for a bill. It is all of 4 pages and is simply window dressing to give the appearance of doing something. There has been no real problem analysis, so all we have ever seen in respect of dog policy is constant tinkering and nothing really substantive to deal with irresponsible dog owners. That is whom we need to be dealing with\u2014irresponsible dog owners. The Minister talked about good law. He is the very Minister who, in talking about changes to the New Zealand Fire Service, could not even do the financial analysis to support any recommendations for change. The Minister is only tinkering with the issues and putting out yet another discussion document. There are to be lots more talkfests and another review, but nothing substantive that will make a difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis issue is about irresponsible dog owners. They are the people who will never register their dog, and they expect everybody else to pick up the tab for that. It is the irresponsible dog owners, those who do not register their dogs, whose dogs are the majority of the animals found wandering on the streets, and we do not want them to be there. But everybody else bears the cost for those people, who think they have a right to have a dog, and who get off scot-free when it comes to the cost of policing their dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhat does the bill really do? Essentially, the bill provides for three things: policy to be done through regulation, the schedule of breeds of banned dogs to be done by Order in Council\u2014and that can be done by the Minister\u2014and councils to adopt policy within 12 months of the regulation having been made. Let us look at the first one: policy by regulation. This is where the Government has failed to do any real problem analysis. It still does not understand the issues, and has put out yet another review consultation document in respect of the Dog Control Act. How many changes have there been under this current Government, since it has been in office, in respect of that Act? I would suggest that there have been more than enough for the Government to finally understand what the issues are. But, hang on! The Prime Minister needs to look good, so that is why this bill is here. It is 4 pages long, and it does not really do very much at all. Although this bill is about amending the Act to allow for policy to be done by regulation, there is no real policy to go with it. The Government has put up a 4-page bill in order to make whatever changes it wants through regulation, without the openness and transparency that a full legislative process has to offer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI will give members a classic example of a situation where openness and transparency have been abused through the regulatory process\u2014that is, legislation by stealth in respect of the Animal Welfare (Restriction on Docking of Dogs\u2019 Tails) Bill. That bill, which was introduced to Parliament by Dianne Yates, was dropped because there was no support for it. There was no majority support and no public support for the bill, so it was dropped, canned, trashed, or discharged\u2014whatever we want to call it. Nobody wanted a bar of it, so that bill disappeared. And what happened? The Minister went along and talked to the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee. The committee has now included in an animal welfare code for dogs the ban on the docking of dogs\u2019 tails. That is a back-door method; it is not a case of openness and transparency. It does not provide the full public input that should be provided, and that is what happens when we try to do something through regulation. It is a back-door method. That is exactly what has happened with regard to the ban on the docking of dogs\u2019 tails. It has gone through the back door because the Government could not get it through the front door. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI turn to the second aspect of the bill\u2014the power of the Minister to add to the schedule of banned breeds by Order in Council. There is some evidence that the breeds currently listed in the schedule as banned breeds are part of a significant number of the dog attacks that occur in America, so they are part of our banned breeds schedule here in New Zealand. However, other breeds have not been identified in the same way as those breeds. The breeds on the banned list in the schedule are fine, but other breeds have not been identified in the same way as them. One of the biggest problems we have with regard to this issue is identifying the actual breed of a dog. There are many cross-breeds in this country and it is very, very difficult to identify them. Vets do not want to do that; dog owners do not want to do that. We can call the dog concerned a mongrel. Why would we add more breeds to the schedule? The use of DNA testing to establish the actual breed of a dog is plain silly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ELet us face it; it does not matter what sort of breed a dog is. Any dog has the potential to attack a person\u2014any dog has that potential. For the Prime Minister to say that if certain dog breeds are banned then dogs will stop attacking people is absolute nonsense. It is simply nonsense; it makes no common sense at all. Actually, common sense saw Annette King coming here with her Electoral Finance Bill. It was smothered in her bosomy embrace, and in that instance it is unlikely to see the light of day for some time. However, in spite of that common sense will not die, even though it is taking an incredibly severe beating at the hands of the current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI now want to talk about the third aspect of the bill, whereby councils are required to adopt a policy no later than 12 months after a regulation has been made. Councils must use the special consultative process, and that actually comes at a cost to councils. I just wonder whether it would have been better to allow councils to adopt the policy at their earliest possible convenience. That could have allowed them, maybe, to piggyback that consultative process on the back of that for some other issues, thereby reducing the cost of having to adopt policy that is instigated through regulation within 12 months of the regulation having been adopted. I think some consideration needs to be given to the costs on councils. I do not see any consideration of that in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EBut as I said previously, there is no policy to speak of within this bill. Here we are, 7 years down the track under the current Government, and it has still failed to identify the issues substantively, address them, and deal with them by targeting irresponsible dog owners and in some way trying to recognise the cost to councils of dog control. But, no, the Government has failed to do that. If we look at the bill, we see that there is some confusion around one of the issues in relation to the neutering of dogs. The explanatory note of the bill talks about neutering being compulsory\u2014as I understood it when I read it\u2014but the bill talks about neutering being at the discretion of the local authority. So even with just a simple, 4-page bill, this current Government still cannot get it right. Government members talk on and on about doing something, but they have come up with a bill of about 4 pages with nothing substantial in it, at all, to deal with irresponsible dog owners. They have completely missed that point, and that is something we need to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe need to deal to the irresponsible dog owners\u2014those people who do not contain their dogs properly, do not look after their dogs properly, and do not socialise them properly. We need to make sure that they bear the brunt and the cost of dog control, so that it does not fall so much on the shoulders of all the responsible dog owners. We need to go a lot further than this bill, which really is appalling. I take issue with the Minister when he talks about good law, because this Government does not know what good law is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1c649622a444afea03b259cfd27f46d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1c649622a444afea03b259cfd27f46d\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker very much reminded me of the notion of the glass being half full or half empty. That member always sees a glass that is half empty. Are those members supporting the bill or not supporting it in its first reading and referral to the select committee? After that speech, I have to say I do not know. How about that member, for once in her political life, on behalf of the people of Coromandel, being a little bit positive? The people of Coromandel want a positive member. Just for once in that member\u2019s life, could she be a little bit positive? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EShe knows, as we all do, that dog safety is achieved through good law that is kept under review in the light of experience, good enforcement by local authorities, community support for local enforcement, and responsible dog ownership. As that member knows in her heart of hearts, there is no one magic solution or magic bullet for the myriad of issues surrounding responsible dog management and dog control. That member may find that it would be very, very good for her health if she was positive. As it is the Christmas season and all that, it would be really good for that member, just once in her life, to say there are good things in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003ELet us get down at the select committee and get through the bill. That is positive leadership. Without further ado I commend this bill, because I am a positive member, and I wish the members of the select committee well in their consideration of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272c1a835e024400ca5aa56a41b7b13c9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Bye, bye!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cba7583a427f4c4386b1cc5374102c6d\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: I say bye bye to that member, and to those members\u2019 negativism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00224966bff5f7c74770a286e8d3a2d2c9be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224966bff5f7c74770a286e8d3a2d2c9be\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not extraordinary that on the last day of the parliamentary year, on which we are under urgency, the Government\u2019s great moment to address the issues of the nation is by way of the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2)? I have to tell members of the Government that when they are taxing New Zealanders to death, when we are dropping in the OECD, when people are dying in Wellington because of failures in our health system, and when there are 5,000 kids who are not at school, I do not think that the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2), under urgency, will save the Government\u2019s bacon. This bill is pathetically small. I question the Government on having the House in urgency to argue a measure that is of such little consequence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us just recite the history of what has occurred in respect of dog control. We had the awful tragedy involving Carolina Anderson from Auckland. The Government\u2019s great answer was that we had to have microchipping of dogs. If only we had microchipping of dogs, then dog attacks would stop! Well, since then, each year there has been a tragedy. I know that in Gerry Brownlee\u2019s electorate there was an awful tragedy this year. So the Government, once again, brings in more regulation. More laws is the answer, and somehow this bill will solve the problem that the Government told us was solved in 2002, solved in 2005, and here we are in 2007\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a5098601254cbdb201b1eb3722ff71\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: In urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e58627b362b0418b8381b07ac3e872c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI look at the detail of the bill, and I say: \u201CGod bless Brian Neeson.\u201D In 1997, members of this House will recall, Brian Neeson brought to this House a bill to ban particular dog breeds. I checked on that. What did the Labour members say in 1997 when Brian Neeson proposed a ban on particular dog breeds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222427bb1f7e1443708f39e6f59ad4cbf7\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f144aed222ba4b588e0c4c0067e6519a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Labour members said it would not work. In fact, they vigorously opposed Brian Neeson\u2019s bill. I was somewhat gobsmacked, I have to say to the members opposite, to read in the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2), 10 years later, that Brian Neeson\u2019s idea has been resurrected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224949aff3755d4eae81bc7ad0b20f8837\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6780f466c574a6fb91c8bd792e2ae2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Under urgency. Do members know what I think is really extraordinary? I think that Labour members, in the 8 years Labour has been in office, have become so bereft of any ideas about where to take our country that they thought they would check out the old books, dredge through the history, and see whether they could find an idea anywhere. They came across Brian Neeson\u2019s idea, and they said: \u201CLet\u2019s make it look like we\u2019re doing something. Let\u2019s pick up Brian Neeson\u2019s 1997 bill about banning particular dog breeds and bring that into the House. Perhaps that might save our electoral bacon.\u201D Well, it will not. This bill will make as much difference to protecting children from dog attacks as did the changes they made in 2002 and in 2005, which equally were failures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to draw the attention of the House to just how minor the provisions in this bill are. It is not as though there is not provision in the existing law to ban particular dog breeds. All this bill does is make a minor change to the procedure by which we can ban particular dog breeds. There are some minor changes in respect of the policies that councils need to have in respect of dog control. I have to say to members opposite that if there is an issue that will change the votes of New Zealanders next year, it will be the one of extra costs on ratepayers. Every single time this Parliament passes laws that impose additional costs on councils, those costs go straight bang on to the cost of rates. After the last 8 years of this Labour Government we have seen rate increases running at more than double the rate of inflation. In my area, rates today are 50 percent higher than they were when Labour came to Government. When I met with some leaders from local government this morning\u2014[Interruption] I tell Mr Barker that they said they have had a gutsful of the Government passing law after law\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e87c49b52794d3aa86aad1748272fc7\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: 69 pieces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed930e33188418a8eae8224a8c7dae7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: As my colleague John Carter, National\u2019s spokesperson on local government and a champion for ratepayers, says, 69 laws have been passed by this Government that impose additional costs on ratepayers through this sort of legislation. So when this bill goes to the select committee, the question that will be on the lips of National Party members is what the additional bill for the ratepayer will be. Does Darren Hughes know what it is? How much will this cost the ratepayers in his electorate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556fe9f15dfb4eea9edbc96e6539b2b0\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t think to ask. He didn\u2019t even think about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022160d00319e104630b4cf30ba16ce55eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: He did not even think to ask those sorts of things. You see, whether it is this bill or the preceding bill, the Government always has a plan and a strategy. The Government thinks: \u201CIf only we passed a law that made every council have a policy on home affordability, then somehow houses would be more affordable. If only we passed a law that required every council to have a policy on dogs, then somehow we would reduce dog attacks.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the members opposite that the Government\u2019s obsession with bureaucracy and strategies and all this muck makes little difference\u2014as we see by their previous record on dog attacks. National says it is time to start thinking about the ratepayers. It is time to start thinking about practical measures. I would love to hear the next speaker from the Labour Party talk about the success of Labour\u2019s policy of requiring the microchipping of dogs. That was the last great saviour of the people of New Zealand. Has that been a great success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211b98f60cb44460a96da0a6065c2dff\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: John Carter thought it was a fantastic idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e05f201f9e44866af9b1e15e2589ccb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Miss Mackey whether dog microchipping has been a great success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568483da4eab47b48cb6765da0e1af7c\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: John Carter thought it was a great idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdf8cdf5ac664318859d35e15568d313\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, she does not want to answer. You see, what Labour did was pass a bill requiring the microchipping of dogs, which has made not an iota of difference. It has increased the costs for dog owners. It has increased the compliance costs for our councils. Here we are, on the last day of Parliament, under urgency, again debating legislation dealing with dog control. We say this bill is incredibly weak and incredibly minor, and it will not make a difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn respect of dog control, we should actually give councils less bureaucracy and more freedom to get on with their business. The penalties, for instance, that we apply to people who are involved in dangerous dog attacks are pathetic. Increasing penalties would be a low-cost way to make some of the irresponsible dog owners responsible. When I looked at this bill I thought that maybe the Government had finally had a dose of common sense and will impose some tough penalties on people whose dangerous dogs maliciously attack innocent New Zealanders. I looked at all of the clauses\u2014it is not a long bill; it has only nine clauses\u2014but not one of them addressed the issue of penalties, which I think most New Zealanders want. I think most New Zealanders want tougher penalties for those people who have irresponsible, dangerous dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the members opposite that if they want to have law that will address the issue of dangerous dogs, then they should punish those who are irresponsible, get off the backs of the responsible dog owners, and stop applying additional costs on councils, which is making the job of our elected mayors and councillors so difficult. You see, what this bill really says is that Labour has learnt absolutely nothing. For all that we spent on the inquiry into rates, Labour is continuing to ignore the fact that every time this Parliament passes laws that increase the compliance and bureaucracy of our councils, all we do is add to rates bills. This bill is not an answer to the issues of dangerous dog attacks; it is just more bureaucracy from a dying Labour Government that is bereft of ideas on how to take this country forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00228158c9a03cf043e9873b3fbe9fffaa2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228158c9a03cf043e9873b3fbe9fffaa2d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I listened with interest to the member Nick Smith. He took his full call and I am none the wiser about whether he will support the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2). I am absolutely clueless as to what he is going to do. He went all round the bushes and back again and could not even tell the House whether he will support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1e4a42ab6c48b5bdebf5b2cd8eb6de\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa5cc44ebcd74bc59dcdbc8e6a5b1524\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He does not know. I would not mind betting that National will support it. I think it will support the bill. National members are totally negative but they will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa5024948fbb4c34b4f28917f077da34\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Pay the money back to the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022179c519c40c5444dbb177f66ea149724\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There he is. There is old Gerry Brownlee. He is awake after his night on the town. He is awake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) is a very simple bill. It is very straightforward. It does not attempt to replace the Dog Control Act 1996 at all. It is not designed to do that. It simply amends that Act to address, I suggest to the members over there if they read it, two key areas. One, it poses a \u201CDuty of territorial authorities to adopt policy on dogs\u201D\u2014I am reading that; it is a heading to clause 4. And two, clause 5 inserts a new section 33E headed \u201CEffect of classification as menacing dog\u201D. A dog that can be determined as a menacing dog has to be neutered, if not immediately then in due course. In the fullness of time, that will reduce considerably the number of menacing dogs; if not down to zero it will reduce them considerably over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f1160e162934cec92cc349b5982e161\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d3ed3eee254fefadb6ce88337ec387\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member cannot work that out then he should not be here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis is a very simple bill. It is obvious the public has some concern about menacing dogs out there. I think it is very straightforward. New Zealand First will support it going to select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ead4e12cd54b49259ee0c3905523dc7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ead4e12cd54b49259ee0c3905523dc7b\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the previous speaker, Peter Brown, for his commendable brevity. I will do likewise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EDespite previous difficulties over bills dealing with dog control measures, the Green Party will be supporting the referral of the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) to the select committee. It seems, on the face of it, to be a sensible little bill, allowing councils more scope, flexibility, and control over what they can do about dog dangers in their local areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI have to say that I for one certainly believe that, in many ways, details of animal control do more logically lie within the purview of local government rather than taking up extensive time in this Parliament and its select committee process, as has happened in recent times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI am pleased to see this bill going forward. Unlike the National Party, but like New Zealand First, we are very happy to make our position clear. We will be supporting this bill and we just hope it goes through with some speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd9f42c351f04d64a18992d7ad8ec3cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd9f42c351f04d64a18992d7ad8ec3cf\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. I am pleased to take a call on the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2). I greet Mr Gerry Brownlee this morning. I know he had a bit of a \u201Cwuff\u201D night last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79d019f92cb46b89af00d307265a383\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ae6599d4f4476fb62471fa24721477\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I just thought I would cheer him up this morning. I will tell a story. In the heart of the Waiariki electorate, about an hour\u2019s drive south-east of Rotorua, there is a small township with \u201Cwuffly\u201D 2,000 people in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b21250b645ed409dbef967eb7b432b25\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f26bd704c043138ba7f836b014f0ea\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Let me continue. The township is the doorway to a region full of beautiful bush, rivers, forests, and farmland. Within this rohe are the marae of Moewhare, T\u012Bpapa, Rangitahi, and Painoaiho. This is the tribal nation of Ng\u0101ti Manawa, \u012Ba. Beside them is the nation of Ng\u0101ti Whare, who act as kaitiaki of the lush natural forests of Whirinaki, Te Wh\u0101it\u012B Nui a Toi, and Te Urewera. There is also the legendary Te Kura Kaupapa Motuhake o T\u0101whiuau. The township I am talking about is Murupara. It would be good for members to go and see that town. It is an awesome little town and there are great people there. The downside, of course, is that in April of this year, Murupara was known for only one thing. On 21 April Virginia Ohlsen lost her life there after being attacked by a pit bull and Staffordshire cross belonging to her nephew. The country watched in horror as the story unfolded about how it came to be that a 56-year-old mother was mauled to death by an unregistered dog, literally in her own backyard. But it did not stop there. Two days later an 85-year-old Auckland woman was bitten on the face by a Rottweiler in a supermarket car-park, and exactly 1 week after the fatal attack in Murupara 8-year-old Jackson Williams and 15-year-old Te Aroha Pukuivi were attacked by two pit bulls in Auckland, leaving the youngest hospitalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThese attacks reinforce the need for owners to register their dogs and keep them fenced and under control. In all of the April attacks it was unregistered dogs that caused the problem. If there are any positives about this whole situation, there is only one. The owners of the dogs that were the cause of the mauling in Murupara and South Auckland did stand up and take responsibility. They were prepared to take the consequences of the dog attacks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill makes it clear that the responsibility for the control of menacing dogs is a collective responsibility. The bill will establish new opportunities for central government to work proactively with local government to discuss dog policy matters. It requires each council to take the initiative in adopting a policy relating to dogs. It also establishes a new classification that makes it utterly clear that a dog owner must not allow a dog classified as a menacing dog to roam at large without being muzzled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party appreciates the fact that the bill takes into account the need for transitional provisions. We believe that the capacity for owners to make the appropriate adjustments within the 6-month time frame is a reasonable measure, and we hope that it will assist compliance with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI am not going to take too much more time than is necessary to express our support for this bill to go to the select committee, but I do want to end on a positive note by referring to a document entitled Murupara Dreaming, which reflects the current initiatives across this community to make a difference. The document I am talking about refers to a community of \u201Cdetermination, passion, people stepping up and leading, people who can be bothered, and people who truly care. This is because, through this process, we have seen ways to lift our community, we have seen the opportunities for ourselves and for our moko, taiohi, and wh\u0101nau, and we\u2019ve realised that no one can change things as much as we can change things for ourselves.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThese words are from Jacob Te Kurapa of the Whakat\u0101ne District Council, and they reinforce for me the potential that all of our communities have to take leadership amongst their people and make progress across all areas. For me this is reflected in Te Kura Kaupapa Motuhake o Tawhiuau, a special character school in Murupara, where celebrating Ng\u0101ti Manawatanga is a way of life. Te Reo Irirangi o T\u0101whiuau 99.7FM based at that kura is their link into that community and broadcasts every day, because of the volunteers and community spirit. Actually the students of the school are the backbone of the station, using te reo M\u0101ori throughout the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe enthusiasm reflected in Murupara and expressed in the community report I referred to earlier is, indeed, a positive context for this reading of the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2), and gives us all the confidence we need to know that local solutions can, and are, the best approach for local problems. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221e13e6d1945f426b8a5ee59d0c0104ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e13e6d1945f426b8a5ee59d0c0104ba\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a brief call on the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) to make just two broad points. The first is that I have always had a strong view that we should be moving towards the compulsory neutering of dangerous dogs. That has been reinforced by a number of incidents that we have seen over the years, and I think the most particular and recent of those was the incident in Christchurch when parents were innocently in a park with their children, and a dog actually broke out from a neighbouring property to savage one of those children. People should not be under that risk when they are in a public place. So the bill\u2019s provisions that go some way down the path of providing for the compulsory neutering of what are called menacing dogs is welcome in that respect. Those dogs are listed in schedule 4 of the legislation. But there has to be a question remaining as to whether that schedule is complete. That is a matter that, I think, will be judged over the period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is the more substantive one. I support the moves that are contained in this bill to require local authorities that say they want to take a more active role to, in fact, have a more active role in respect of dog control policy. But there is one glaring omission in the legislation that will make it difficult for that role to be effective, and until that omission is addressed it will put some measure of doubt upon the credibility of our overall approach to dog control policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to quote from the Government\u2019s own Cabinet paper on this issue. That Cabinet paper warned: \u201CThere is little systematic information collected or monitored on the incidence and characteristics of dog bites or attacks.\u201D The paper states further: \u201CIt is therefore difficult to build an overall picture of the effectiveness of the dog control regime.\u201D The Government\u2019s response to that pretty trenchant criticism from officials was to indicate that it is prepared to look at ways to improve data collection. But that is a very woolly and vague statement. I will not attempt to pick up the phrase used by the previous speaker, but I think he would describe it as \u201Cwuffly\u201D\u2014it means absolutely nothing. Until we have a compulsory data collection regime administered by local authorities whereby we know precisely the incidence of attacks, the impact of those attacks on children and other persons, and the types of breeds that are responsible for those attacks, our dog control policy will continue to be ineffectual. This bill fails to go that far. It is a welcome first step, but it is not going to deal with the fundamental issue, and we are still going to continue to find incidents occurring where the safety of the public is put at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAlthough we support the introduction of this bill as a step towards an ultimate policy, we note that, in fact, it really sets up a consultation process, and until that process has been completed and more definitive steps have been put in place, we have to conclude that the proposals contained in this bill will be of limited value only.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00227ea426fb29634b1bb29658d40ce8e4c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ea426fb29634b1bb29658d40ce8e4c4\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak to this first reading of the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2). We will be opposing this bill. Why? Because it will have absolutely no effect at all. How many times have we seen dog control bills come before Parliament and enacted into law, and nothing happens? Children keep being bitten. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe first point I want to address is why this bill\u2014a very simple bill we have been told by many members in this House\u2014is being considered as part of this urgency motion. Is it really a matter of such urgency for the country that everybody sitting at home listening to this debate with bated breath is waiting for this bill to be enacted? I think not! So, like the microchipping legislation, we are going to pass this bill off to a select committee today, to impose more rules and regulations around the issue of dog control that will have absolutely no effect. The issue should not be addressed in this forum\u2014in urgency. Actually it should not have been put forward at all, but given that it has, it should have been put forward in the normal course of events and debated in that manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe dogs, of course, are not the issue. The responsibility lies with the owners\u2014something that is completely overlooked in this legislation. Neutering dogs will not solve anything. The responsible owners of so-called dangerous dogs will go ahead, as they are required to by law, and have their dogs registered, have their dogs microchipped, and have their dogs neutered. The problem owners\u2014those who train their dogs to fight\u2014have not had their dogs microchipped and have not had them registered, so why does anybody in his or her right mind think that they will have them neutered? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis is just a further example of a knee-jerk reaction, and how many times, particularly with dog control laws, have we seen this happen? Far too many. There is a terrible event that gets a lot of media attention, so the Government rushes to develop new legislation in a knee-jerk response that will achieve absolutely nothing but will make it seem to the public as if the matter is being taken care of and being taken very seriously. ACT is proud to be the only party that has consistently opposed dog microchipping, which is a cost to responsible dog owners and a further driving underground of irresponsible and sometimes criminal dog owners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EDog laws\u2014and this point was raised by a member from the National Party who I heard talking on the radio\u2014just add more compliance costs for the law abiding. New dog laws will add just more regulation, as I have already outlined, more costs, and more fines for the law-abiding dog owners who go ahead and do the right thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EVery few of the dogs that have been registered actually ever attack anyone. It is the unregistered dogs that create the problems. That points out just how ludicrous this legislation is. In fact, it is a fantasy to think that those who do not microchip or register their dogs will go ahead and neuter them when this law says they have to. It is such a fantasy that we should include with this legislation the muzzling of dragons and the putting of leashes on unicorns. That would be about as much use as this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EDog rangers say that the real problem dogs are owned by lawless owners, and we have seen that time and time again. The worst culprits are the gangs that train dogs to fight and attack and do not register them in the first place. These new laws will have absolutely no effect on the lawless. The fact is that the problem has never been a lack of laws. They are already in place, as everybody in this House knows, but there is a lack of targeted enforcement against criminals who own these dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESo what would we do? That is what everybody always wants to know. What would the ACT party do? We oppose this bill, but what would we do? I have beaten Darren Hughes to it. He really wanted to stand to speak on this bill and ask that question, so I will answer it for him. Rather than impose knee-jerk legislation, ACT would impose sanctions where the responsibility lies\u2014with the dog owner. I invite somebody from the Government to stand up and tell me how many convictions and imprisonments have resulted from serious dog attacks on children. What happens instead is that the dogs are put down and the irresponsible dog owners\u2014many of them being patched gang members, training their dogs to fight in filmed exhibitions\u2014simply get a new dog and start the same process all over again. If people train their dogs to be a weapon they should be punished accordingly if that weapon then harms someone. That is something that this House should think about. Given that I presume this bill will go forward to a select committee, I hope that those things will be taken into consideration when submitters are heard and the amendments made at Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT will oppose this legislation. We like to see sensible legislation put forward\u2014laws that will have some teeth and can do something, rather than useless laws that will achieve nothing but will lull people into a false sense of security to make them think that matters are being taken seriously. That is not the case with this legislation, and we will be opposing it for that very reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00228697b50c46944ec2beb1472834165d3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228697b50c46944ec2beb1472834165d3b\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E When Peter Brown from New Zealand First spoke, he accused members in the House of sleeping. He is the only member I have found who can actually stand up and speak while still asleep! I think he is amazing how he does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d739ee5662064b8da001f4a99aea9505\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: A talented member!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210573273b5de4bd49ff71aeac37602e7\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014multitasking, and a male to boot! That is saying something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI want to take a call on the bill before us for the very reason that, yet again, it is a bill about giving Labour members an opportunity next year, in 2008, which is election year folks, to stand up and say \u201CLook what we\u2019re doing! We\u2019re doing something about dog control.\u201D This is just a political publicity stunt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37e6bf0dbf34931a3c8ae1201345152\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: A gimmick!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291314a98975847bf83c4eedd0cde27e8\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a gimmick, just like the bill that we had before about affordable housing. It is just another opportunity for Government members to say: \u201CAren\u2019t we a good Government. We are worried about affordable housing. Look what we are doing. We have introduced this bill.\u201D The fact is, of course, that bill puts huge costs on to local government and ratepayers, and this bill is in exactly the same category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me put before members the reasons that the other parties in the House should be concerned about this bill. The first thing the bill does, apart from giving the Government the opportunity to get out there and say \u201CWe are really concerned about dog control and dogs biting people.\u201D, is to take away from the public the right to have an input into how dog control in this country runs. When we read this bill, we see that it shifts the ability of Parliament to debate legislation and changes to regulation. The consequence of that, of course, is that the Government will then go and sneak behind closed doors and make all sorts of changes that suit it and are to its advantage, just as it is doing with the Electoral Finance Bill, and the public will not know about it until they run against it. That is the reason this bill is here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet us be very clear that there are two things that this Parliament and the public of this nation should be concerned about with this bill. Firstly, there is the fact that the Government will give itself the power and the opportunity to make regulations. This is the Labour socialist Government that wants to nanny manage everything in this society. Well, here is another example of its hands-on control: \u201CWe won\u2019t tell anyone. We\u2019re merely going to make the decisions for you. You don\u2019t have to worry, we\u2019ll take the bite out of this country.\u201D Well, actually, that will not happen at all. Rules and regulations will be made that affect the public, affect the dog owners of this nation, affect the kennel clubs, and affect the people who care about dogs\u2014and they will not know. That is what this Government does. That is what it is about. It is about managing everyone\u2019s lives for them rather than people taking responsibility. Added to that is the question of who will pay. Is it local government, the ratepayers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc78d20daf64ec184cdef8a7ae099bd\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: The dog owners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e5536ba0a840588723e1c14e874c9b\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute; it will not be just dog owners. It will be ratepayers and local government too. Of course, dog owners will pay. There is no question about that. They will pay through their fees and regulations, but local government has to administer this in conjunction with the other 69 such bills this Government has passed since coming into office. Actually, it will be 71 bills because we have the affordable housing legislation as well as this bill, and there are two or three other such bills in the pipeline. Just about every day local government and ratepayers end up having to pay more because this Government says so. This bill will end up putting more costs on to dog owners and ratepayers. There will be more bureaucracy and more local authority staff, and, as a consequence, the costs to ratepayers will continue to increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe know in this nation that there is already a rates revolt. In fact, the Government was so concerned that last year it had a rates review. Some of us remember that. The Government asked for a rates review to be done. I have to say that the review came out with some dopey stuff but it also came out with some very good stuff. I ask the Government this question: which one of the recommendations made in the rates review has been implemented?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223dabf08826b4745ad37c7bd72e1e163\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: None!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef2954cd0784e089d1c5ca67b54b289\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Really? That is astonishing. Can I just ask this question then: what was the purpose of the rates review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecff12606ec46908312749242640fc9\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Box-ticking! Mindless bureaucracy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b073d10df54959bf3c67e8e238cbe5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: And shifting the focus off the Labour Government, so that the Government would not be blamed. It was just to shift the focus and take the heat out of the issue\u2014to do anything that moves it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat is exactly what this bill is for. It is exactly the same thing. It is merely there so that the next time someone is bitten by a dog, the Government can say: \u201CHang on a minute, hold it, don\u2019t worry, I know your bum is hurting where the dog bit it, I know the stitches are not good, but, don\u2019t worry, here is a bit of a paper called the Dog Control Amendment Act. That will make your bum feel better.\u201D Actually, it will not at all. It will not do anything, and that is the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIt seriously worries me that this nanny State Government continually wants to control the lives\u2014the destiny\u2014of everyone in this nation. This bill is more window dressing and it will merely cost money. It will cost dog owners money and it will cost ratepayers money. It will cause more bureaucracy, and it will achieve nothing. If National thought this bill could make some difference, any difference at all, we would say it was worth supporting through all stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOne interesting thing is that this bill will add to the list of banned breeds. Although this is a silly bill and will add costs, National is interested to see what the public think, and for that reason we will support the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. But let me be very clear that in the select committee the Government will have to convince us that this bill is worth continuing with. Unless there is an advantage to the public and to the people we represent, why would our party and other parties in this House support the bill? One of the things that has always worried me in this Parliament is our tendency to put through more and more legislation, more rules and regulations, more control, more costs, more\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228126b793a3db4a26a53aeffe229f9032\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member support the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1df844705ac45e081c2462c82667d85\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There he goes! I have just told the House that we will support the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee. Sandra Goudie said we will support it to the select committee, Nick Smith said we will support it to the select committee, and I said that, just 15 seconds ago. Never mind; poor Mr Brown is tired and he has dozed off. But that is OK. As I said, he is the only member who can stand, speak, and be asleep\u2014all at the same time. We have just proven that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe problem with the bill is that there will be more costs. There will be more compliance costs and more costs on ratepayers. In fact, this year ratepayers will face huge rate increases across the country. The cost will be close to double figures, and in some cases it will be well in excess. The average increase is likely to be 7 or 8 percent, all because this Government has imposed costs on local government. This bill is another example of that. It will add to the worries and problems of this Government, and when the public look at legislation like the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) and the housing affordability legislation we have just put through its first stage, they will realise why they have high rates bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00221ce642009bc94ad491cb4a0a207fea83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ce642009bc94ad491cb4a0a207fea83\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call on the first reading of the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2), which will be going to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and we look forward to a robust debate there. I say to the member who has just resumed his seat that that was a \u201Cbob each way\u201D speech. He spent the entire time opposing the bill and opposing the Dog Control Act, and just before sitting down he said: \u201CBy the way, we\u2019re going to support it.\u201D Labour knows that whenever something happens in this country to do with dangerous dogs, National members leap to their feet and ask what the Government has done, and what it is doing, to control dangerous dogs. Well, the Government is constantly looking at the current laws, the tools provided to local government, to deal with dangerous dogs. We have only to look across to Australia, which has had microchipping. I noted that the honourable John Carter did not mention the very good speech he gave in this House when he was a Minister in the National Government. He was not the Minister responsible for that legislation but he was a Minister, and he supported the microchipping of dogs and said he looked forward to a bill coming into this House, because microchipping was a cost-effective and simple way of keeping track of dogs. I agree with that member, even if he has done a 180-degree about-face\u2014a flip-flop\u2014on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have found that countries like ours that have gone with microchipping have been able to record the behaviour of a dog, in a way that we have not done before\u2014say, a dog that has shown menacing behaviour. Without that, it is very easy to move that dog to another territorial authority where it has no record of that dog\u2019s previous behaviour, or to swap owners. With a dog that is microchipped, its behaviour will be recorded so even if the owner tries to change the dog\u2019s location, or change its name, that local authority will know that it is a dangerous dog, and that dog can be destroyed before we see another tragedy like we have had. So it is typical of National members to say that because some people may not comply with the current law, we should not do anything at all to make sure that our laws are as strong as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is another classic example of the Labour-led Government, and the parties that support this bill, taking an approach that will prevent dog attacks and give local authorities the ability to track these dangerous dogs and destroy them, before they attack a child. We will never know how many attacks we manage to prevent; that is what happens when we look to prevent attacks rather than simply clean up the mess, or be the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI look forward to this bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I am sure we will have a robust debate on it, as with the previous Dog Control Amendment Bill in the last term of Parliament. I look forward to the bill providing local government people with more measures to be able to deal with the dogs they have to deal with every single day, and being able to give those people the powers to do what they need to do to take these dogs off our streets. I am sure that another speaker from the National Party will stand and absolutely oppose everything about this bill, and in the last 30 seconds say that National will vote for it. I am very happy to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228fd32b38d2194e6794290464cdf9212a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fd32b38d2194e6794290464cdf9212a\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will support the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) going to select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4195158e5740e8bc01fa673c0d05eb\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae98abacf16345c9a117f53b1b35c8cd\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: I will say it again, because the Government does not seem to hear the message. The National Party will support the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) going to select committee\u2014and only to the select committee. We want to make some points about the bill at the select committee. I will cover some of those points today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWe all support dog control. Of course we all support dog control. Everybody in this House, and most thinking people in this country, support dog control\u2014just like we all support affordable housing. Of course we support affordable housing. We in the National Party just take a different point of view from the Government\u2019s view that we need to apply a huge cost upon local government. It might sound a bit like a broken record for me to say this\u2014but I do believe it\u2014the real effect of bills such as this dog control legislation and the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, which was just debated in this House, is to impose cost on local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIt sounds boring, I know, but when I was involved in local government, time after time we were dealing with legislation\u2014this micromanaging of the Labour Government coming down to local government\u2014that we were required to turn into a by-law, at huge cost and with huge time pressure. At the Waitaki District Council, where I was deputy mayor, we were sitting in a costly council meeting talking about some by-law we had to put into effect, and we started doing a count of the number of pieces of legislation that were being handed down. At that time I think we got to 69. There were 69 pieces of legislation that we were compelled to do something about in the Waitaki District Council. So we said to the local member of Parliament at the time, David Parker, that the Government is imposing cost on local government. Do members know what the former Otago MP said to us? He denied it was happening, because Labour Government members cannot see what is right in front of their faces. That is the effect that legislation such as this dog control bill is having on the sector. We ask to what effect. I think that is the debate we will have in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill, which National will support going to select committee, is all about a Government, under urgency, trying to look as if it is doing something. This bill, under urgency, is about the Government\u2019s desperate need to look like it is actually doing something. It is a bit like the affordable housing legislation. It thinks it is doing something about affordable housing. Well, actually, the Government is not doing anything about affordable housing, because so many years will go by until the policy comes into effect that today\u2019s people who desperately need housing in places like Central Otago and Queenstown will have moved on. It is bureaucratic legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIf we look at the general policy statement and the intention of this bill\u2014which, of course, National supports\u2014we see that the bill will \u201Cmake it mandatory for dogs classified as menacing by virtue of belonging to a breed or type listed in Schedule 4 of the Act to be neutered.\u201D We support that going to select committee. But the next sentence says: \u201CAlso, the process for the addition of a breed or type of dog to Schedule 4 of the Act will be simplified.\u201D Aha! So here we get to the nub of this bill; it is the process. The process is the problem with this bill. You know, it sounds good\u2014it sounds fantastic\u2014but, as with many bills, the devil is in the detail. Once again, this bill dumps on local government. On the one hand it is dumping on local government\u2014yet again, for the 72nd time in recent history; but on the other hand\u2014and here we get to it\u2014the bill is making the real decisions on dog control by stealth, regulation, and Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI turn to various parts of this very small bill, which we are debating under urgency. Clause 4 of Part 1 is entitled: \u201CDuty of territorial authorities to adopt policy on dogs\u201D. Does that not just reek of ratepayer money? Does that not just reek of councils sitting for days on end, and officers writing yet more reports because of this amendment bill? Does that not just reek of an increase in the general rate? Have we not just had the strongest message from local authorities, from local government, about the unaffordability of rates? Has this Labour Government listened? No. This Labour Government continues to foist upon us bills like the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, which was debated just shortly before this bill. It just reeks of putting cost on local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill spells it out even further. This Government just loves tying up local government in red tape. Clause 4(2) inserts new subsection 5A into the principal Act and states that territorial authorities must fulfil the requirement to include any matters prescribed in regulations in their policy \u201Cusing the special consultative procedure.\u201D Oh, no! Do members know how much cost is involved in that, and how much timeliness? And what will it achieve? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI turn to the new subsection 33E, which is entitled: \u201CEffect of classification as menacing dog\u201D. It sounds good. Subsection (1) states: \u201CIf a dog is classified as a menacing dog under section 33A or 33C, the owner of the dog must not allow the dog to be at large or in any public place or in any private way without being muzzled \u2026\u201D. It sounds good, but then we get to subsection (2), which states: \u201CSubsection (1) does not apply if\u2014(a) the dog is completely confined within a vehicle or cage;\u201D. That is OK, but then we get to paragraph (b), which states that subsection (1) does not apply if \u201Cin respect of any dog or class of dog, a territorial authority considers that it need not be muzzled in any specified circumstances \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo what does this mean? It means that it is the responsibility of a territorial local authority to decide whether a dangerous dog, as classified under schedule 4, needs to be muzzled. That decision lies with the territorial local authority. That is not a decision that should have to be made by a bunch of councillors living in a community. How will it pan out? What will the local authorities do with this particular provision? The provision states that a dog need not be muzzled if \u201Cin respect of any dog or class of dog, a territorial authority considers that it need not be muzzled in any specific circumstances \u2026\u201D. What does that mean? Does it mean that the territorial local authority will have a hearing? Will it have a special council meeting? Will it have a public meeting? Will it have a submission process? What does this mean for the local authority? How will it be handled when some dog owner who has a registered dangerous dog says: \u201COh, well, no, I don\u2019t think my dangerous dog, under schedule 4, should have to be muzzled in public, because it likes to go for a walk in the park on a Sunday morning. I promise it won\u2019t bite anyone, Mr Mayor.\u201D? How is a territorial local authority meant to handle a decision like that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI move on to new subsection 33E(3), which states the requirement for an owner of a menacing dog to \u201Cproduce to the territorial authority a certificate issued by a veterinarian \u2026\u201D. Is the Government kidding? In reality, the dangerous dogs in our society, in the main, do not go to veterinarians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI turn now to new section 78A, which is inserted by clause 7 of the bill. The section is entitled: \u201CRegulations amending Schedule 4\u201D. Here we get to it: \u201CThe Governor-General may, by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister, amend Schedule 4 \u2026\u201D. This should be the decision of Parliament. That is why we are here. I am elected as the member for the Otago electorate to take issues like this back to my electorate, take soundings from the people I represent, and bring those opinions back to the Chamber to debate. That is what we are here for as MPs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI look forward to this bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee, where we will have the opportunity to debate these issues and to tell this Government to stop offloading on local government and stop trying to look as if it is actually doing something. We support this bill going to select committee with reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e498faf9c0b49bda9c57b13804578c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Dog Control Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000252\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a980f67e6b6041e3b0d6ea6752b279bb\u0022\u003ECompanies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022574ae21e814c4c3f856dc5cae1692532\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002241a41305136b4feca302f8f446ccac7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241a41305136b4feca302f8f446ccac7f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. It is my intention to refer the bill to the Commerce Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is to amend the minority buy-out provisions in the Companies Act 1993, in accordance with the recommendations set out in the Law Commission report Minority Buy-Outs, which was written as a result of Justice Doogue\u2019s decision in Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Ltd v Infratil 1998 Ltd. That case concluded that the provisions could do with some further clarity in order to make the minority buy-out rights more beneficial and workable. The case highlighted the fact that the law did not provide a basis upon which the shares at issue were to be dealt with at the time the company was required to pay the shareholder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe amendments to the minority buy-out provisions include providing clarity surrounding the value of the shares to be purchased from a shareholder, to ensure that the value is an honest estimate. To achieve this, the bill requires that the share offer to the shareholder be accompanied by a statement outlining for the shareholder how a fair value for the shares was determined. The amendments also provide that the price of the shares in a minority buy-out be calculated from the date the company gives the shareholder notice agreeing to buy back the shares, but that the calculation of the value of the shares must not take into account any fluctuations that have occurred due to the triggering event, except in times when a shareholder is being eliminated against the shareholder\u2019s will. Thirdly, the amendments clarify and expand the powers of the arbitrator to determine the share price in a minority buy-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe company has three options at a time a shareholder invokes the minority buy-out provisions. It can agree to the purchase of the shares, apply to the court for an exemption from the requirement to purchase the shares, or arrange to have rescinded the special resolution that led to the minority buy-out provisions being exercised. Currently, only in times of an amalgamation is the company obliged to send to each shareholder of a company a statement setting out the rights of the shareholder in the amalgamation. This bill extends that obligation to any situation where there is a special resolution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill also clarifies for the parties involved the time of the transfer of shares from the shareholder to the company. The legal title of the shares, and the voting rights attaching to them, remain with the shareholder until such time as the price is ascertained and paid in full. However, after an original offer has been made and the company has paid the shareholder a provisional payment, any purported disposition of the shares of the shareholder, except in favour of the company, will be of no effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ETo conclude, I tell the House that the bill establishes a much more clear and transparent process for calculating the price of shares in a minority buy-out situation, and addresses the particular issues raised in the Infratil case. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022083a8a02e6c64348b65ca0b8ee9293e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022083a8a02e6c64348b65ca0b8ee9293e0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill being referred to the Commerce Committee, and National will most certainly give it the attention that it deserves. But anyone listening to that speech by the Minister in charge of the bill, Lianne Dalziel, factual and accurate though it was, could well ask himself or herself what on earth this is all about. Although the Minister talked about the appropriately stated movements that occur in these situations, I do not think she gave a fair outline of the circumstances this provision may trigger, or, for that matter what it is all about. So I will take some time in the House this morning to explain exactly how all this works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that yesterday the House passed the provisions for the KiwiSaver legislation, and the idea of that is to encourage more New Zealanders to save and to invest for their future. Many of those accumulated funds will end up being invested in companies that are domiciled both in New Zealand and overseas. When the companies are domiciled in New Zealand, these laws will apply to shareholdings in those companies. The Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill is about giving shareholders, or the representatives of shareholders, an opportunity to exercise their judgment about the wisdom of holding shares, where there might be a transaction inside the company that they have disagreed with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe provisions of the Companies Act say that shareholders have a specific right to engage in a discussion and then have a vote over major transactions within the company\u2014over mergers and acquisitions inside the company, and over a range of activities that are inside the normal activities of the company. These provisions are there to try to give the shareholders the right to determine what happens to that company. For example, they can decide whether to liquidate the company. Those are rights that are held by the shareholders as opposed to the executive of the company, and they are there to protect the investment that New Zealanders make in any particular entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo how do these provisions kick in? Let us say that Company A decides it is going to expand by making an acquisition of Company B. The first company would be required to go to its shareholders to get a resolution empowering it to go into that particular transaction. Some of the shareholders might say no. They may then find themselves in a minority. So Company A goes ahead and acquires Company B. Those who had disagreed with that might say that this acquisition will cost them, that the value of their investment will decline because of the move, and that therefore they have the right to require the company to buy them out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe could give plenty of examples of such situations occurring, where a big company has decided to take over another one because it might be in trouble\u2014struggling just a little bit\u2014and because it looked like a good acquisition at the time and as though there was a profit down the line somewhere if the big company could get it to go. I will not mention names, but one only needs to look at the airline industry to see numerous examples of this sort of situation occurring. In a number of cases\u2014and for various reasons I will not mention names\u2014those companies fail, and the investment by the shareholders is, of course, in that circumstance, completely lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis legislation protects those who have disagreed with that activity right at the start of the new entity coming together. They are able to say to the company: \u201CI want to be bought out.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228890554dfdbf443da15619aeeaf8e671\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s before the amalgamation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b6ad091d7fe44cc917e92702c9abeaa\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right. The Minister actually knows a bit about this, and I appreciate her nodding and affirming that what I am saying is absolutely correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022817bbc371b894e5fb6480b45866b7a87\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Before the amalgamation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221929652fc30649f69312cbcd7d3af9c2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, \u201Cbefore\u201D, Minister. [Interruption] \u201COf course, Minister. Yes, Minister. Yes, Minister.\u201D That is what they say all the way through the Beehive, all the time. The officials over there just say \u201CYes, Minister.\u201D, even though they are not particularly happy with the current Government, because the way it treats State servants is quite unbelievable. The Labour Government has no respect for State servants, so its Ministers are just getting the \u201CYes, Minister.\u201D treatment from the public servants\u2014and so they should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe decision is made by the shareholder, who says: \u201CI don\u2019t want to be part of this. Buy me out.\u201D This bill puts in place a number of technical measures for determining the value of those shares, and then for the way in which the transactions between the exiting shareholder and the company are to be purported. It does, as the Minister said, come from the Infratil case, and I think it is worth considering what the judge said in that case, which was heard by the courts in the year 2000. He said: \u201CIt is common ground that the minority buy-out rights sections are defective.\u201D So the judge identified that there was a problem with our current law that led to this new law coming on. He made a number of points about the rights of minority shareholders in these circumstances, and continued: \u201CHowever, here there is a relatively substantial sum of money involved.\u201D\u2014there always is in these cases\u2014\u201CIn other cases there could be a substantial number of shareholders involved.\u201D\u2014there usually is\u2014\u201CWhile the Law Commission and the legislature may have been wise to avoid the complexity of some of the North American legislation, it would seem essential that, if the minority buy-out rights sections are to be effective, they should be urgently reconsidered.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe judge\u2019s advice is to urgently reconsider things. That is why we have the legislation in front of us today, but it is interesting to consider this idea that we should have done something urgently. In the judge\u2019s conclusion to his judgment he refers to a statutory vacuum, and said: \u201CI regard the section as substantially flawed \u2026\u201D He is talking about the Companies Act and minority buy-out provisions as they existed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276baa389d999420cb3654436cdc72582\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: 1993\u2014who was the Government then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43e5ae0fcca45d285365250f02ca110\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Interestingly, the Minister over there is giving a bit of a commentary, and I appreciate that. If only she had used up her 10 minutes she could have had so much more to say. The judge said: \u201CIf the minority buy-out rights sections are to be beneficial and workable, they should\u201D\u2014as already indicated\u2014\u201Cbe urgently reconsidered.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis is how the Labour Government deals with small investors in this country. We are now under urgency, urgently dealing with this matter 8 years after the judge said it would be a good idea. Unbelievable! What is more, we had to look at dog control legislation first and consider that before we got to this. I think that indicates the priority that the current Government put on business in this country. We welcome this bill coming before the select committee, because I think we will have to do some work around some of those calculation provisions. It is obvious that if there are a large number of people, particularly in the executive of any particular business, recommending a course of action to shareholders, they will put as much gloss on that as they possibly can. It seems to us that to then have the right to subsequently value shares for the purpose of the minority buy-out is a little bit on the offside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne thing that worries me is that quite often these acquisitions are financed\u2014[Interruption] The Minister keeps shaking her head. I know it is difficult for her to understand. Goodness me, I am trying to make it as easy as I can for her. Clearly those officials up in her office, whom she and the rest of that Labour Government have brassed off, have simply nodded at her and said \u201CYes, Minister!\u201D, and told her she was right when she had got it wrong. But a lot of those acquisitions will be financed by some pretty heavy borrowing and what is really a concern here is how far those agreeing shareholders will have to agree to an extra level of debt in order to be able to cover the buy-out of those who have said no. That is a perfectly reasonable thing; the Minister can think about that. If 20 percent of the company says \u201CNo, I don\u2019t want to be in this.\u201D, and the company offers $100 for that company over there, it will cost it $120, actually, to go through with the acquisition, we would assume. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThat issue is something we need to get much more clearly defined in the bill, because shareholders expect the executive of their company to give them a good deal. That is why they hold the investment in the first place; they want to get a return on it. But I wonder where the requirement is in the bill\u2014I cannot see it from the first reading that I have given the bill\u2014that all shareholders are told the real cost of the acquisition and the buy-out costs. That provision does not seem to be there, I tell the Minister, but she should not worry: National will come to her rescue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENational will be looking at this legislation very positively in the Commerce Committee. I think we will probably have to bring in some independent advisers on this one. I can see us bringing in some independent advisers because it is a very complex bill, and I am distressed that the Minister does not understand it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00221bd4ae8cf23a4473a868afdfc8932d9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bd4ae8cf23a4473a868afdfc8932d9f\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E That was a bit of a worrying speech, actually\u2014particularly as I understand that the speaker, apparently, is the chair of the Commerce Committee. But I certainly hope that the Minister, Lianne Dalziel, will be instructing officials to give the committee a full briefing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b89bd601914aae9d58eb6a371d8896\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no! They need an in-depth briefing after listening to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a23fee3eb744142ba806633dd9a2cfc\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want the Minister to make sure she gives the select committee every assistance. That is very important. Having said that, I tell members that I do appreciate the member opposite. He is chair of the Commerce Committee and I am sure that he tries to do a very good job. I hope he does. But, again, I sense a degree of frustration, because at least we now have a Minister who is addressing quite an important issue. I want to make the point\u2014and I think, in fairness, the previous speaker did make this point\u2014that the provisions of the Companies Act 1993 require currently that the company offers a fair and reasonable price to the shareholder for the shares, but provide no guidance as to how a fair and reasonable price is calculated. Indeed, the current law does not require that the company give any information to the shareholder on the basis of its valuation for the buy-out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe good thing about this legislation is that it will provide for a fairer and more transparent transaction process for the minority shareholder, and it strengthens their minority buy-out rights. I am looking forward to the select committee looking at this bill, clause by clause and line by line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will make one other point: this is another good move for what I call the mum and dad shareholders. If we can improve this law around the rights of the minority in a company, that will encourage people actually to invest. We so need to build a savings culture and an investment culture in this country. This legislation will encourage people to invest in companies in this country, and I think that anything we can do to encourage ordinary people to invest in our economy, particularly by way of purchasing shares, and to improve and strengthen their particular rights in these particular cases, is to be encouraged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI commend this bill, and look forward\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293165a10a9e543748039bd92bcf9734c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why? The man doesn\u2019t even know what\u2019s in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451d460e274b4a77a67bd55ffca82ded\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I think I know a heck of a lot more of what is in it than the chair of the Commerce Committee\u2014he should be afraid; he should be very afraid. But I am not going to take any more time now. The Minister has given this Parliament an assurance that she will make her officials fully available to the select committee on what, I think, is a very positive bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00229b7a216861bf449b9cb9400e63113d4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b7a216861bf449b9cb9400e63113d4c\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thank the member Martin Gallagher for that analysis of company law and minority share buy-outs. I am sure that in the fullness of time he will take the opportunity to come to the Commerce Committee when we are considering this bill and share his wisdom with the rest of us\u2014and with those independent advisers whom Mr Brownlee has spoken about\u2014in his own airy sort of way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIn actual fact, the Companies (Minority Buy-Out Rights) Amendment Bill is serious legislation. This bill amends the 1993 Act to clarify the buy-out provisions for dissenting shareholders in times of a special resolution. The key objective is to improve the practical operations of that minority buy-out regime in order to ensure it functions efficiently, cost-effectively, appropriately, and without flatulence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe major difficulty with this particular legislation is that, unfortunately, it has not come about because of a technical issue that proved difficult for a one-off minority buy-out; it has come about, of course, as a result of the Infratil - Natural Gas case, and a decision by Justice Doogue in July 2000. In fact, I think I am right in saying that it was Justice Doogue who was on the bench the day I was admitted as a barrister and solicitor. I am pretty sure it was Justice Doogue, and what a fine fellow he was. He congratulated me. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure it was Justice Doogue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe difficulty, of course, is that it leads to a wider question, a question that I have raised in this House on a number of occasions, which concerns the fact that the Government\u2019s response to Law Commission recommendations is nothing if not consistent\u2014that is, whatever the Law Commission recommends, the Government puts into legislation within a certain period of time. Of course that begs the question that is on everybody\u2019s minds today: what do the Ministry of Economic Development and the commerce unit do, and, more particularly, what is the Ministry of Justice doing while the Commerce Commission continues to make that huge number of references by way of legislative change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EHowever, in this particular case the Minister of Commerce is right to move this bill to the House. In fact, National, as my colleague Gerry Brownlee has said, will support the passage of this bill through its first reading and, pending the advice the select committee receives, no doubt\u2014in my opinion, anyway\u2014for its second and third readings, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EYou see, the intention of the minority buy-out provisions is to provide an exit regime for those shareholders who are dissenting, and who have unsuccessfully opposed a fundamental change to the structure or operation of the company. In amongst Mr Brownlee\u2019s contribution, where he talked about some of the practical examples where this regime may have assisted, he was dead right when he talked about the borrowing implications for the company once the dissenting shareholders had exited the company following the transaction. He questioned whether that increased borrowing would be incorporated in the valuation of shares, post or pre - minority buy-out, and what effect that would have on the dividend return to those remaining shareholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOf course, balancing up the rights of the minority shareholders who look to exit on a dissenting transaction presents one of the most complex and difficult matters for directors of a company. It concerns their duty to shareholders as opposed to their duty to the company. Those are two quite different things. The fundamental duty is to the company, but the secondary or less significant duty is to the shareholder. Not all directors understand the difference between those particular transactions, and if it is the matter of the health of the company and, indeed, of its remaining shareholders, because of the borrowings-to-asset ratios remaining following a minority buy-out dissenting view, then that creates a really interesting paradigm for directors to make these decisions in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is hoped that this bill will assist those directors in making a decision that will work for the health of the company. Of course\u2014as the Hon Paul Swain will know\u2014the last thing the health of any company needs is a group of dissenting shareholders who do not want to be party to a major, or indeed a significant, transaction. But, at the same time, the rights of the remaining shareholders, in a secondary sense, will have to be balanced against that fundamental duty of directors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65c8d9a7ed6438b86fd6f14b3c634c3\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: As long as it clarifies it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1c0d197cae493d99e2b0539e4a59ac\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Paul Swain, who has had a bit of experience in this area as a Minister for State Owned Enterprises, is dead right when he says that as long as the legislation clarifies that point, that will help. We do not want directors to be put into a position where the minority buy-out regime complicates and makes more convoluted the series of duties that the directors have to weigh up when considering the implications of a buy-out for dissenting shareholders in a time of a special resolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ENow, I know my colleague Judith Collins, who was a company lawyer in a previous life, will have a firm understanding of the technical issues surrounding this matter, and I welcome her 17\u00BD minute contribution to the debate on this bill, because I think it would be worth hearing. I was only fortunate enough to be practising for a very short time, and, of course, I feel a little humble in the presence of those who practised in a much more technical area than me. I have offered only a general overview. The extent of my knowledge of these matters pales compared with the contribution made by the member from Hamilton West, Martin Gallagher. But, nevertheless, his contribution was valuable because it provided a springboard for a more detailed discussion on some of these issues. He brushed over it in a general sense, but his understanding of the more complex innuendoes surrounding the conflicting duties was apparent in some of the language he used during the course of his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs the bill says, the important thing here\u2014and this is echoed by the chipping contributions of the Hon Paul Swain\u2014is to simplify and clarify the regime. The minority buy-out provision should have the following key features. I am sure the House will indulge me as I work my way through page 2 of the explanatory note. The first key feature is: \u201Can obligation on the company of a minority buy-out to send to each shareholder of the company a statement setting out the rights of shareholders\u201D. That is fine; that makes good sense. In fact, I would be very surprised if that was not followed today under the existing regime. The second point is: \u201Cthat the share offer for a minority buy-out be accompanied by a statement outlining for the shareholder how a fair value for the shares was determined:\u201D We should remember that that particular statement should also perhaps include\u2014in my opinion\u2014a statement to remaining shareholders about what the increased borrowing means for their shareholding value and potential dividend stream once the buy-out occurs. The third point states: \u201Cthe valuation of the shares \u2026 should be calculated as \u2026 on the date the company gives notice\u201D. There is no problem with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe fourth point states that the valuation \u201Cshould be adjusted to leave out of account any change in the valuation attributable to the event\u201D. Well, this is the key point that Mr Brownlee drew our attention to during the course of his contribution\u2014at what point does that consequent liability get married in or weighed in as part of the remaining valuation of those shares? We need to say that in determining the valuation the adjustment needs to leave out of account the effect of a triggering event, and if the shareholder and company cannot come to an agreement, the price will be determined by arbitration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThose last few clauses are pretty standard stuff, really. We know\u2014and I say this particularly to New Zealand First and my colleague over there, Peter Brown\u2014that this is not without its complications. I hope Peter Brown\u2019s contribution to the House acknowledges the fact that although the House appears to be waving this legislation through to a select committee, these are important matters of commercial and company law that should not be underestimated in terms of any potential conflict and application of duties that may arise in the public company or State-owned enterprise environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI have to say the only thing that worries me is that if Mr Brownlee as chairman of the Commerce Committee moves to make the Law Commission its independent adviser, we may not get the answer to some of those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6d09537389947979ad5925a63cb8053\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6d09537389947979ad5925a63cb8053\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to follow that member, Simon Power, because in large measure he outlined in some detail the concerns, as he saw them, about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b0266ef05649d883ffc53549651b4c\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Oh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab32508a787f4b74a2e624d00e090997\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, he did. He did quite a good job. It must be the morning for complimenting National members, because I actually thought Gerry Brownlee started off very well when he opened up and gave the public, who might well be listening to this, some background on what it is all about. But he got into the frivolous stuff towards the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am not sure that I understood Simon Power on this issue. He will probably tell me whether I have understood, but he seemed to put a lot of emphasis on the concern he has in regard to the directors of a company. I do not want to undermine the directors of a company, who have huge responsibilities when it comes to minority shareholder buy-out, but my concern and New Zealand First\u2019s principal concern is for the minority shareholders. I think this bill goes quite some way towards addressing those concerns. Simon Power started to read the eight bullet points from page 2; he started to go through them, one by one. That was in fact my intention also, but he stole my thunder and I will not bother. But I will touch on one or two points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere is an obligation here for the company involved in a minority buy-out to communicate with the shareholders and to tell them their rights\u2014what they are entitled to, and what have you. There is also an obligation to tell the shareholders how the value of the share was determined. Those are very important points. This bill is based around the case Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Ltd v Infratil 1988 Ltd, but I recall that when BNZ was sold some years ago, a number of minority shareholders did not think they were getting a fair deal. They held out, and in the end they got a pittance, and were not listened to; as I understand it, they just got cheques in the mail. Of course, we all know what happened to BNZ after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESo those are the two factors\u2014first, to communicate with shareholders and to tell them their rights, which is an important innovation, and, secondly, to tell the shareholder how the value of the share was arrived at. The final point, which Simon Power touched on, is to explain to the shareholders that they have got the right to go to arbitration if they cannot reach an agreement. As I say, there are eight points here. Some of them are very technical and would take a longer time to explain to the House than I have. This is a bill that I think is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205bbdfaf6ad94dd493ef05504039abff\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Is Tauranga rebelling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d5ceea38cf43e89cf3cd1031caddd3\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member asking me a question? Because I am prepared to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3cfe40de944b2ba4ea0d5095c02217\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, how does your Tauranga electorate feel about the Electoral Finance Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c0b96ac1ab4a0f981826ce5f531d89\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Tauranga electorate totally supports it. I just digress; I actually went to a public meeting held in the Tauranga electorate on Monday. The people asked all the questions about the bill that they were concerned about, and they were totally supportive when I was there. I understand that Winston not only had been there before me but has given an interview to Audrey Young, explaining all of the differences. I have not read that article but I had it reported back to me, and I have to say that the way in which Audrey has printed it is quite different from what Winston told her. I say there could well be a suggestion of a lack of media ethics in the way that issue is reported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI can tell members that I spoke to the Tauranga chairman this morning about another matter and he is quite content. He said the issues that concerned him\u2014and some concerns were raised with him\u2014have all been addressed. Is the member happy with that explanation? I am running out of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EComing back to this bill, I say that we think that those three factors in the list of eight on page 2 of the explanatory note are very important. The last one I touched on was the ability of the minority shareholder to go to arbitration if he or she is not happy with the situation. We think this bill is worthy of support, and New Zealand First will support it going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00225fa0d0aa56244e9cbc68ef60d723aceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fa0d0aa56244e9cbc68ef60d723aceb\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in support of the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. Unfortunately, like much of the legislation in the dying days of the Labour Government, it is too little too late. As the contributions from the National side of the House have shown, we in the National Party take seriously the rights of minority shareholders. One reason we do that is the headlines\u2014for instance, this one in the New Zealand Herald today: \u201CMortgage worries \u2026 fewer people taking loans as the housing market cools.\u201D This could be considered a good thing except for the fact that the sharemarket has not been a place of safety for many investors\u2014many mum and dad investors\u2014in New Zealand. After 8 long years of a Labour Government the sharemarket is still not a place of safety. This Labour Government has spent an awful lot of time castigating people who buy more than one house, which is very interesting because Chris Carter, the former Minister of Housing, has several houses. The Government spends a lot of time saying to people: \u201CYou shouldn\u2019t be buying up houses and renting them out to people. You shouldn\u2019t be doing these things. You should invest in other things.\u201D Well, what are the other things? Mum and dad investors with $40,000 or $100,000 to invest have to look not at commercial buildings, because they cannot afford those, but at a place like the sharemarket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThose investors should be able to rely on the sharemarket, regulated by this Government and also by the New Zealand Exchange, as a place where they can have a modicum of safety for their investment. But the fact is\u2014and it is a sad fact\u2014that votes are what count. In the sharemarket, a person who has more money in shares will have more of a say. It is not untrue, and it is not an exaggeration, to say that most of the shares in the New Zealand sharemarket would be controlled by either big investment companies like AMP or by other private equity funders and shareholders. Those are the people who effectively control much of the wealth in the sharemarket. Yes, we have lots of mum and dad investors, lots of people out there with their life savings, extra to their house, in the sharemarket, but those people effectively do not get much of a say except for the one meeting they get in the form of an AGM each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat happens is that some of the company directors are appointed as independent directors. I would like to deal with the fiction that I see around the issue of independent directors. I ask members to just look at this example of an independent director: John Maasland, who was chair of the airport company. John Maasland was acting as the independent director, making decisions he felt were in the best interests of the company, so, instantly, he was given the word that he would be shifted on because the big shareholders\u2014the Manukau City Council and others\u2014would make sure that he is not the independent chairman. That is obviously a right; it is allowed under the law. But why do we put so much faith in a situation that is effectively fictional, because the independent directors, like all other directors, are in fact elected at the AGM? They are elected by the shareholders, and if the shareholder voting power is with a great big investment company, the great big investment company will decide whether that director stays the next year. So we put an awful lot of pressure onto our independent directors without actually giving them the ability to be truly independent without the fear that they are going to lose their positions. I pay tribute to some of the independent directors whom I have worked with, and whom I have seen over the years make decisions that have been truly in the best interests of the company, even if a particular majority shareholder or a very powerful shareholder did not like those decisions because they were not necessarily in the interests of that shareholder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is very important for us to understand that we will not become a wealthy country until we have a sharemarket that the people of New Zealand can have true and total faith in, and we will never have that if we consistently think that just because something is legal, then it is OK. Well, it is not always OK. In fact, we find over the years that many minority shareholders have felt that they have had very little voice. I welcome the attempts of the Government to do something about that\u2014around the valuation of minority shares, and the buy-up provisions. But I would also say to the Government that we can say all we like about going off to arbitration and about taking court actions to protect one\u2019s interests as a minority shareholder, but the vast majority of our minority shareholders are mum and dad investors who are aged 65-plus and who will never go off to take complicated, expensive, and very, very tiresome legal action to protect their rights. It is important that we start to address the culture that has allowed some companies\u2014in my opinion\u2014not to do the right thing by minority shareholders. Of course, democracy is one of those things that are great when they work for one and not so great when they do not. For some minority shareholders the democracy of the share voting power can have very disastrous consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI am very concerned that the Government in its last dying days is now talking about minority shareholders rights. Having said that, I ask what it is doing about the agencies that were set up to protect some of these people\u2014that is, the Serious Fraud Office and others? It has brought the Serious Fraud Office back into the Ministry of Justice\u2014a ministry that has shown itself to be completely in with the police. The Ministry of Justice shows itself so completely incapable of coming up with any policy that it now relies on Sir Geoffrey Palmer at the Law Commission to put forward all its policy. That seems to me to be an indication that we need to go significantly further than the provisions that people are talking about in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI also take the opportunity to acknowledge the work of some of our commentators in this shareholding area\u2014the work of people like Bryant Gaynor, for instance, in the New Zealand Herald who has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c68aa1519a9490eaf0e39b53c3da01e\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Brian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9b93b5d7f04d2db5bdc2ad754f0cf2\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I did say Brian, did I not? I did say Bryant. I am sorry, I meant to say Brian. I thank Mr Swain. Brian Gaynor has spent a huge amount of time and effort looking at companies, in many cases from the minority shareholder point of view. Over the years, as a company director, Mr Gaynor has been extremely irritating at times, but the fact is that the work he does is extremely helpful to many independent and small investors who have had to look at the New Zealand Herald to get a view as to whether they should be investing. Sometimes, unfortunately, with the way in which initial public offerings are handled through sharebroking companies and through the financial markets, the commissions that are paid and the deals that are done mean that the independent advice tends to come from people like Brian Gaynor\u2014and, I should say, from the work of people like Bruce Sheppard from the New Zealand Shareholders\u2019 Association. People like him have been willing to come out and sometimes make a bit of a stunt in the old AGM and carry on in some way that certainly gets some notice. But behind all the stunts and the rhetoric, these people are, with others, standing up for the rights of minority shareholders. I know it is not always a view that is particularly popular around the board tables, but I believe it is extremely important that New Zealand get rid of its cowboy reputation in relation to its companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI do not believe that this Government will necessarily regulate a change in attitude, but I do not think we need to look too far to see that there have been a lot of people, not only in the sharemarket area but in the finance company area, who have made a lot of money out of a lot of very small investors and who are not held to account. They are certainly not held to account anywhere except in the court of public opinion. When we look at why New Zealanders have so much faith in investing in property, I think we do not need to look very far to see that a lot of it is to do with a lack of faith in the way in which some few\u2014I say \u201Csome\u201D, because it is certainly not all\u2014few people have manipulated minority shareholders for their own ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that is well overdue. However, it is only a very small attempt at a very late stage by this Government to do anything for minority shareholders. National will certainly support the bill going to a select committee. We will hope to see something better come through after that process; we will certainly be putting big efforts into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022b849467571ca4781acfd83c83901a150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b849467571ca4781acfd83c83901a150\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker; t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The M\u0101ori Party comes to this bill aware that many of our wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi are taking up the company structure as laid out in the Companies Act 1993. Whale Watch Kaik\u014Dura, M\u0101ori active-wear brand Kia Kaha Clothing, Mai Media Ltd, and Shotover Jet Ltd are all examples of M\u0101ori organisations that have been attracted to the company structure as a mechanism for their commercial operations. These international market leaders see the provisions of the Companies Act as providing them with a robust structure for economic benefits to be realised, for the capital growth of their assets, and to ensure financial benefits go to individual shareholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHowever, we do realise that the company structure may not be appropriate for hap\u016B or iwi whose objectives are solely or primarily political, social, or cultural. The company structure may not be suitable to meet the non-commercial objectives of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, and we recognise that as one of the limitations of the current companies legislation. We take all of these factors and interests into mind when we consider the amendments mooted in this Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to improve buy-out regimes when minority shareholders have elected to have their shares purchased by the company. The current legislation has made it easier to operate as a company, with particular attention having been given to decreasing the set-up costs and making name approvals available almost immediately. But issues are still apparent, particularly around the concept of minority shareholding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFrom the outset, we know that the concept of minority shareholding has always been one of those issues that has turned wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi off the company structure in the first place. The requirement that those with interests must hold shares has created practical difficulties for hap\u016B and iwi due to the complexity of identifying all the persons to whom the shares should be issued. This bill assumes that hap\u016B and iwi have worked through all of those issues and have come out the other end. In other words, in the situation of a dissenting vote, minority shareholders have willingly elected to have their shares purchased by the company and the process of this bill is necessary to ensure their shares are valued fairly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn general terms, the minority buy-out regime is triggered in response to a dissenting vote\u2014that is, where the shareholder exercises the votes pertaining to that shareholder\u0027s shares against a proposal and that proposal is agreed to by the required majority of shareholders, that shareholder is entitled to require the company to purchase those shares in accordance with section 111 of the Companies Act 1993. Both the Law Commission and Justice Doogue concluded that the Companies Act 1993 was actually defective in its failure to set out a workable method when such a situation occurred. Therefore, the challenge for this bill is all around how to value minority shareholding when a minority shareholder has elected to have his or her shares purchased by the company under section 111 of the Act. In fact, Justice Doogue was so convinced of the failings of this particular legislation that he referred in his 2000 report to a \u201Cstatutory vacuum\u201D and stated the specific section was \u201Csubstantially flawed\u201D. We in the M\u0101ori Party are, therefore, pleased to receive this legislation to ensure that the minority buy-out rights are to be both beneficial and workable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe do not have a great deal more to add to this debate, other than to note with depressing consistency that this bill appears to be another bill before the House in which there has been little, if any, consultation with M\u0101ori. We were unable to confirm what the nature of the consultation with M\u0101ori companies or M\u0101ori company directors had been in the Law Commission review, or if there had been any consultation with M\u0101ori in the drafting of this bill. Our experience to date would tell us there has been none. However, we will support this bill going to a select committee, and we hope that this will provide an opportunity for the independent voice of M\u0101ori to be heard. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022329769d0a00545a284a6f09e09a657b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022329769d0a00545a284a6f09e09a657b7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to address a couple of points made by Judith Collins and also Simon Power, who I thought made quite a useful contribution. But the first thing I would like to know is why the National Party is filibustering on this kind of legislation. I hear that it is supporting it, and what I am interested to know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255ca24ea22444f08d913702b2ce9318\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the questions that Mr Swain is asking us, and I seek the leave of the House to take 2 minutes to answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5fe36449e8b493da4aed2c614f6b27f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228718b03750ab4270a1e37c6684a34265\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: A very simple answer to the question would easily suffice here. It may be because those members had a bit of trouble at the post-media do last night. There was a bit of grumpiness and now they are trying to take a bit of utu; that is what it might be about. I wonder whether National Party members know the saying \u201CCutting off one\u2019s nose to spite one\u2019s face\u201D, and over there is a particularly large nose and not a very pretty face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226713587db98c4cc582e1631303523cd9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is what Doctor Cullen has done; silly man! He should have talked to us before he talked to Vernon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f01effc1389462a93f3d9666778aea9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Was this because of last night? That is the only thing I can think of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f2f397aa39242dd86cbd4b5e7b568cf\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s nothing to do with last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b827728ebd47d18993af014aedbaf2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I take the member\u2019s word that it is nothing to do with last night, because he is an honourable member. I presume the National Party is going to be supporting this legislation because it is good legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI want to take up the first point that Judith Collins made. She said that the Government has not done much in this area until now. Of course, that is completely not the case. When the Labour Government came in, in 1999, I had the privilege and honour to be the Minister of Commerce, and one of the things we looked at was the problem we had not only with company law but also with the rights of minority shareholders. We got to work putting into place the Takeovers Code that the National Party had agreed to in Government but had decided not to implement because of pressure from the Business Roundtable. We got it under way straight away to give minority shareholders rights at a time of takeovers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThen there was a whole lot to do with insider trading, to make sure that the torch went on to insider trading and exposed it, in order to protect minority shareholders. Now we are bringing forward the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. It is more really good progressive business legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4a213c48244a9880480cdb22c9a131\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 8 years late!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e1d1df50074110bcdb47b9c7747763\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this has been a very, very busy Government. We have had lots of legislation to bring through, not only in this area but also in transport, health, and education. There is so much to do in so little time, which is why we need to be able to continue on for the next 3 years, as the programmes and projects are not yet finished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESimon Power raised what I thought was quite a reasonable point. He essentially said that in the case of a company director, or company directors, trying to make a decision about where the company should go they not only need to take into account the health of the company but also need to take into account what is potentially the outcome for some minority shareholders who, for example, are opposed to a decision to amalgamate, and then decide that they want the buy-out rights. That has to be factored into the decision. I think what this bill is trying to do is clarify the rights of minority shareholders who are in that position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIt is not just on the question of amalgamation; it is also to do with times of special resolution, because that is not specifically mentioned in the legislation. If there is a special resolution it clarifies, for example, what the rights are in the case of a company\u2019s constitution being imposed, or removing a restriction on a company\u2019s activities. Someone might be opposed to that and want to buy out. It may be a major transaction that the minority shareholders might not be keen on, or, as I said before, an amalgamation proposal. At the moment the old legislation says they do have rights, but it does not really clarify what those rights are. I think the most important piece of clarification is to say that at the time of the opportunity for the minority shareholders to buy out, there firstly needs to be clarity around the value of the shares to be purchased from a shareholder, to ensure the value is an honest estimate. What is an honest estimate? That is a fair point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe second point is that the price of the shares at that moment, in a minority buy-out, will be calculated from the date the company gives the shareholder notice agreeing to buy back the shares. That is fair enough. But, of course, there could be some fluctuations around that time, as always happens when this kind of activity goes on. The legislation says that the calculation of the value of the shares must not take into account those fluctuations. Of course, thirdly, if an arbitrator is in place, then it clarifies and expands the powers of the arbitrator to determine the share price in a minority buy-out situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESo this is a good situation. I come back to Simon Power\u2019s point, which was that we need to have some certainty and some clarification so that, for example, directors do not get themselves into the position where they do not take a positive step in the interests of the company because they are concerned about the impact, potentially, of those who are opposed to it and then exercise their minority buy-out rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI think where Simon Power got to in the end was that, provided there was clarity in the legislation, he would support it. I think it does provide that clarity. Of course, the opportunity with this legislation is that it will go to a select committee\u2014the Commerce Committee, I presume, chaired by Gerry Brownlee\u2014[Interruption] No, I actually think he does not do a bad job, to be perfectly frank. A good meeting is a quick meeting, as I have always said. I hold to that particular principle. Of course, it is an electronic committee so some members have struggled, but it is a very good committee. Gerry Brownlee seems to have mastered the new technology\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd2a6d327564f62866dc6731bbfd361\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s always logging off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022689ba96512104605bef8fbf0ce1925f0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, logging off and on, when the time suits. I think the important thing is that this bill will go to the Commerce Committee. I expect there will be quite a lot of submissions from the business community, and rightly so. I think it will be really interesting to hear whether what is in the bill before us will meet the needs of shareholders. I am sure that people will come up and say \u201CYou\u2019ve forgotten about this. You should do this. What about that?\u201D. I am sure that under the leadership of Gerry Brownlee, and with the hard-working and conscientious members of that select committee, we will come back to the House with, possibly, a new and improved proposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIt is with great pleasure that I support this legislation. It is another arrow in the quiver of important business legislation that this very busy and business-friendly Government has introduced into the House. That is another reason why we need to be able to continue with our work after the next election, because there is so much more to do. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022f02dd5d8df094133af422267250267c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f02dd5d8df094133af422267250267c5\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. We listened with rapt attention to the very profound comments from the previous speaker, Paul Swain, and from Gerry Brownlee. We are most upset that we are not represented on the Commerce Committee that this legislation will be going to, and that we will not be able to hear the wisdom of not only the members and the chairperson but also the many presenters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb895ce2aad64635a25af70c3d34fd00\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You can seek leave. We would love to have you there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dde5212bbf64851a8226738d2d8864d\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that invitation. We will look closely at taking it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI am sure that the interests of the minority shareholders will be protected. However, I listened very closely to Pita Sharples\u2019 speech, and there is a lot of work to be done to make sure that this legislation is applicable to M\u0101ori trusts and the like. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022299c3f49356745d78f0499de9b3511a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022299c3f49356745d78f0499de9b3511a6\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on this bill. Personally, I am supporting this bill to the Commerce Committee, only because of the brilliant chairmanship of Mr Gerry Brownlee. I have confidence only in him, and because he is supported by our brilliant Simon Power, the legal brain. I think this bill has to go through a close scrutiny. I point out that it is no wonder the Hon Paul Swain, who was previously the Minister of Commerce, did not bring any changes to the minority buy-out section, because from the content of his speech we are quite sure he was not sure what was being proposed and the way it was going to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I would like to tackle two issues. One is the technical valuation of the shares. I contrast the statement that this bill is going to give a practical and constructive method for the valuation of the shares for a company upon request by the minority shareholder that wants its shares to be purchased by the company. Under the Companies Act 1993, upon receiving that notice, the directors would have to nominate a fair and reasonable price for the shares to be acquired. But in the proposed changes, the bill says that that price must be an honest estimate of the value on the day, etc. I hope the excellent chairman Gerry Brownlee, during the select committee deliberations, will ask the officials to provide some evidence of dishonest estimates that have been proven to have happened in regard to all these minority shares bought out throughout this period, without these amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe all know that lawyers love to spend time challenging and debating a new word or new phrase whenever they have been introduced into legislation. I am sure every commercial lawyer in the country is now sharpening his or her pencil and starting to interpret what the politicians who are trying to pass the first reading of this important bill mean. This bill is part of the urgency motion. They must have meant something, given that in the present Act, all it says is that the director has to give an estimate of the fair valuation of the shares, but now we are inserting a clause stating that the price must be an honest estimate. How does one define \u201Chonest\u201D? Should the directors immediately go external, seeking an independent estimate of that? Have the directors up until now, or before the bill is to be passed, demonstrated that they have not been giving an honest estimate of the value? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that apart from this word \u201Chonest\u201D, the bill also specifies a couple of days regarding when the valuation has to be given; it specifies some parameters and says that first of all we have to ascertain the value of the total shares in each class, and then each class will be adjusted to exclude some fluctuation before and after the event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI personally think that these three additional amendments that have been brought into this new bill will not give much direction to the valuation of the shares to be bought out from those minority shareholders. I am looking forward to the diligent National members on the Commerce Committee getting a detailed briefing from the officials and asking for an explanation, step by step, of how that would actually help the practical and efficient way of valuing shares.\u201D As one of the three qualified accountants in the House, I have long been resigned to the fact that the valuation of shares is really an art and not a science. We could go outside and get a valuation of what they call a \u201Cgoing concern\u201D, selling the business if it is to continue, or we can get a replacement value or historical value, which nobody believes is fair. Therefore, I hardly believe that what is contained in the new bill will achieve that workability and efficiency, etc. As I say, the only saving grace is that the bill is being referred to the Commerce Committee, which happens to be chaired by the brilliant Gerry Brownlee. The members on the National side, I am sure, will ask those hard questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other subject I want to touch on is that of minority buy-outs. Quite interestingly, in the case of a public company situation or even a medium-sized company, nowadays I really wonder at the meaning of the word \u201Cminority\u201D. A 10 percent shareholder in a public company can be a cornerstone shareholder, and, in effect, one would hardly describe that person as a minority shareholder. He or she probably has as a representative one or two of the board members. So I want to know whether in those circumstances those board members would excuse themselves or whether they are collectively still able to come up with what we would call an honest estimate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhen we think of a minority shareholder in the traditional sense, we think about shareholders who are helpless and may be subject to the tyranny of large-parcel shareholders. But in the current day, minority shareholders themselves can be quite influential and substantial shareholders who may not agree, or indeed may even stand up to the other shareholders, who are actually true minority shareholders because of the small parcels of shares they hold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis bill, in my mind, has not quite addressed or really come up to the play with the modern scenario of what a minority shareholder can be. What I am alluding to is that I do not believe there is a practical framework to work out the value of shares. If we consider the current definition of a minority shareholder, we see that the shareholder can actually be quite substantial in a company, and invariably that situation will lead to litigation. It will also lead to arbitration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo as we look at this bill, we are not sure that in fact it will bring efficiency or effectiveness. The reason is that Parliament tends to be quite slow. We tend to be reactive, as was demonstrated by the former Minister of Commerce, Paul Swain. He acknowledged there was a problem with minority shareholders\u2019 buy-out rights 8 years ago, and what did Labour do? The outgoing, dying Labour Government has introduced, 8 years later, under urgency, a solution to fix it. That solution might have been fine 8 years ago, but 8 years later, things have moved on. Therefore the solution here really will not, in my mind, contribute to a lot of difference. Ultimately, if it is a lot easier for a listed company to look at the valuation of the shares\u2014and I thought that might be one of the practical suggestions to save on litigation, etc.\u2014I wonder whether the select committee can look into the practical suggestion of having an independent valuation triggered early on in the piece, rather than having the board of directors going away and trying to interpret how and in what circumstances they can prove to others that they have given an honest estimate of the value of those shares. Maybe they should just agree on a framework as to how they can appoint an independent valuer for those shares. I have lots of doubts, and my only confidence is in the supreme chairmanship of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u00221b272eedbaa14c5ea6faac87168f8faf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b272eedbaa14c5ea6faac87168f8faf\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take this opportunity to take a short call on the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. I stand in support of this bill. As a member of the Commerce Committee I take a particular interest in the buy-out provisions and the application of these provisions, and I compare that to the debate we had on the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill last evening on the issues surrounding iwi structures and trying to marry that up with other legal identities in order to give them the opportunity to be able to compete in today\u2019s economy. So as a member of the committee I will be taking a particular interest in those comparisons, and I look forward to a robust analysis of this draft and to supporting the committee\u2019s recommendations to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea44d38c8c0f48d9a3eadeddc0680c7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea44d38c8c0f48d9a3eadeddc0680c7f\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I join with those members of the House, from both sides, who have praised the wisdom of the chairman of the Commerce Committee, to which committee this bill is to be referred. It is invidious to deal with the issue at length, but I certainly recognise his artful insight, his scintillating contribution to chairmanship of the committee, and his dogged determination to do right by those who appear before the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill is interesting legislation, but it is certainly not without complexity. That is why National supports its referral to the select committee. We think, though, that in the context of the submissions that will likely be received, changes to the bill will be necessary, and it is appropriate to enter that caution at this particular point. Some philosophical issues underpin minority buy-out rights legislation. But in essence the position is that if the goalposts are moved despite the shareholder\u2019s opposition, he or she is entitled to decide that he or she no longer wishes to be a player and is also entitled to be protected from losing financially by reason of his or her decision to leave the field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe intended functioning of buy-out provisions has been described in a number of ways by a number of academic writers, and I simply cite an article that appeared in the 1997 Columbia Business Law Review by that well-known commentator Alexander Khutorsky. In an article under the subject heading \u201CComing in from the cold: reforming shareholders\u2019 appraisal rights in freeze-out transactions\u201D, he stated: \u201CIn theory, the existence of appraisal statutes has a two-pronged effect on merger transactions. First, the appraisal remedy is supposed to guarantee that dissenting shareholders get a fair price for their equity stakes. This prong of the appraisal statute is embodied by a procedural scheme whose end result is a judicial valuation of the minority stake in the target, with attendant money damages where appropriate. Perhaps more important than the actual exercise of the remedy is the ex ante effect which the mere existence of the remedy is supposed to produce. This second prong works by inhibiting the incentives of majority owners to act strategically by providing for the possibility of a threat of litigation and uncertain damage awards. The corporate planner\u2019s assumed preference for certainty, coupled with potential cash-flow constraints in meeting potentially sizable judicial awards, should encourage the planner majority owner to offer fair consideration in freeze-out transactions.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn a New Zealand context, the inadequacy of our current regime emerged a number of years ago when the Natural Gas Corporation and Infratil were locked in litigation in 2000. In very general terms, what happened was that Infratil was the first minority shareholder to invoke the minority buy-out provisions to force the Natural Gas Company to buy its 6.7 percent stake in the Natural Gas Company after it opposed the $824 million takeover of energy retailer TransAlta. Infratil was unhappy with the $1.30 provisional price set by the Natural Gas Company, but after the company sought a declaratory judgement to get control of the Infratil shares, Infratil was forced to hand over title to those shares, and the price was later set at $1.68 after protracted arbitration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe current statutory regime is easily explained. The broad scheme of the New Zealand Statute, as far as it is relevant to matters that arise on this bill, is that the shareholder must give notice of an intention to invoke the procedure within 10 working days of the passing of the resolution. The board, within 20 days of receiving the shareholder\u2019s notice, must then elect one of a number of courses of action and notify the shareholder of its election. Those courses of action are: first, to back away from the resolution that has triggered the shareholder\u2019s notice; second, to agree to buy the shareholder\u2019s shares or procure a third party to do so; and, third, to seek an exemption under section 114 or 115 of the Act. In very general terms, those sections empower the High Court to excuse compliance by the company on financial or just and equitable grounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo if the company agrees to buy, within 5 working days of notifying its election it must notify the shareholder of the price it is prepared to pay. If that price is unacceptable to the shareholder, the company must be notified forthwith, whereupon the issue of the price must be referred to arbitration, and within 5 days the company must pay the price it has nominated. Each side is bound by the decision of the arbitrator. If the price is fixed by the arbitrator at more than the company\u2019s proposal, then the company must pay the shortfall. If the arbitrator fixes the price at less than the company originally offered, then the amount paid in excess of that amount is recovered by the company from the shareholder, and the arbitrator has the power to award interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThese deficiencies in the legislation were very clearly laid out in the Infratil case. In a comment that is often made in connection with buy-out rights, the lack of detail was trenchantly criticised in the existing regime. The judge said in the course of that judgment\u2014I am referring to paragraph 4 of the judgment\u2014\u201CIt is common ground that the minority buy-out rights sections are defective. Although they provide for the company to nominate a fair and reasonable price for the shares to be acquired, they do not state at what date that price is to be ascertained. Nor do the sections make any provision for the company, in nominating the fair and reasonable price, to give any information to the minority shareholder of the basis of the valuation. Nor do the sections provide any mechanism for the completion of transactions falling within them. As already noted, section 112(4) is silent as to the basis upon which the shares at issue are to be dealt with at the time when the company is required to pay the provisional price. Nor has the arbitrator power to make orders in respect of the completion of the transaction following the arbitration. Having created minority buy-out rights, the Act fails to provide for important features of the transactions that can arise under them. In the context of the Act as a whole and its history, that is understandable. However, here there is a relatively substantial sum of money involved. In other cases there could be a substantial number of shareholders involved.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAgainst the background of that decision the issue went off to the Law Commission and, after what others have described as a substantial period of delay, now comes to this House in terms of the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. The bill contains a helpful, explanatory\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ddb0b81054b441fa210a325b69706e8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c1f299838c42b293e8e06228c9833e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029dbfcd3d1c40ee92496313e29f3c9b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Michael Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022285190b3fe2d40eaaf16a40e0beaaa0e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is outrageous! I have never seen anything so biased in all my life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f0bedcd64748d396b11d7193b29cdd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is to withdraw that remark, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257bd2564177842a2b115921326622f03\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What are the rules around here? I raised a point of order on the bell. I was clearly the first person to raise a point of order; the audiotape will demonstrate that perfectly clearly. The videotape of it will also show that very clearly. You looked my way, then immediately turned to Dr Cullen. It would appear now that the Chair is totally complicit in the Government\u2019s determination to jackboot all over the democracy and conventions of this county. I will not apologise for saying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216fb8b9697ec49eeb92bd677eea9a660\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, the call is mine, as I have explained to you several times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99efd31ccfb47ab8f591f5b5c091b3b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Let us be clear on what the sequence of events has been here. I sought a point of order, and you chose not to accept it but instead turned deliberately to Dr Cullen and took his point of order. I have now expressed my disappointment about the biased nature in which the Chair has operated in this particular case, and I have further alleged that the Chair is complicit with the Government in trying to expedite a piece of business for the Government that will see the democratic rights of New Zealanders trampled all over. Now, apparently, you are simply saying that you have told me the rules before, that there are really no consequences to what I said, and that we are going to hear from Dr Cullen because we have some time limits here that we need to address. Madam Assistant Speaker, you are in a very difficult position, because you either have to take some pernicious action against me or, effectively, revisit the way in which the House operates when circumstances like this arise. This will be precedent setting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af86c7ca93264a3e868c49a4d09354f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The member seems to think there is some sort of strange complicity to achieve some device. Far from raising a point of order to expedite business, I was raising the point of order to slightly delay some business of the House. I was going to seek leave\u2014I will do that in a moment and explain why\u2014for the next item of business, which is the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill\u2019s first reading, to begin at 2 o\u2019clock. I understand that some people are still on their way and that more people can probably be here at 2 o\u2019clock than are here at the moment. I know that Opposition members are very sensitive about the New Zealand Herald editorial this morning and feel they have to beat their chests, but the Government intends that the House carry on in urgency to complete first readings, and that we will come back next week because most of us are going to be here anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI now seek leave for the House to rise for luncheon, then to begin again at 2 o\u2019clock for the first reading of the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f1c14c4be64560a6582ee37ca9eb9a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Before we do that, because the point of order was raised before the question had been put on the previous bill and the speaker had finished, I will put that question first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7e3f6960eb548eea7bb5134267331d5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You cannot put the question, because Mr Worth has not finished his allotted time. I raised a point of order\u2014which was ignored\u2014on the bell, meaning that he still has 2 minutes to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2b6f005a9d4b6bac06075c65741701\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thought he had finished. OK; we will do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022012a5f4c303f4f96ab20dfc10320c1bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Worth wishes to carry on speaking for 2 minutes, then I am very happy for him to do so. I am fascinated by his erudite explanation of this bill, which I trust will be noted fully in the next New Zealand Herald editorial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226124f050547a497ab32a665b3525d4c3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I would just like to say, as I relayed to Mr Brownlee before, that it is my decision about the call. As well, if the member wants to criticise the Chair, then he knows the proper procedure for doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256127d9dd4d64c8082a671c8c2fe7d22\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: I am grateful for the opportunity of continuing this speech on the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. I was just about to turn to the substance of the bill in the short time I had remaining, having made comments to set a broad contextual framework for what that position might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that will be looked at when the bill comes to the select committee will be the appointment of advisers. This is the type of legislation where I believe that independent advisers should be engaged. The reason for that, without in any way criticising those officials who will be drafted into the task of providing support and assistance on the bill, is that there needs to be a hard-headed, commercial look at this legislation. The issues are easily identified, but their solutions, perhaps, are not so easily identified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ECertainly, the following key features need to be considered. First of all, there needs to be an obligation on the company of a minority buy-out to send to each shareholder of the company a statement setting out the rights of shareholders when a special resolution triggers the minority buy-out provisions in the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5be1a2e11a447dc8b30b4b751fb36de\u0022\u003EMauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022319245245aca4493911a0e15965d8222\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6840c63ab2c48b8ba1e8d60bd7b7c84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6840c63ab2c48b8ba1e8d60bd7b7c84\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, that the committee report back to the House on or before 27 March 2008, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192 and 195(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThis bill transfers ownership of the fee simple estate in the Mauao historic reserve, generally referred to as Mount Maunganui, to the iwi of Tauranga Moana\u2014Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga\u2014in recognition of the significant cultural, traditional, historical, and spiritual importance of Mauao to them. It also recognises the relationship between Waitaha and Mauao, and the importance of Mauao to the wider public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the initiative of Kiri Toha Tangitu in the mid-1990s, who started discussions on Tauranga Moana, and with my colleague the Hon Mita Ririnui, regarding Mauao. Mike O\u2019Brien and W\u012B Parer\u0101 Te Kani, who have both since passed over, should also be mentioned because of their energy in progressing the proposal on behalf of iwi for the Crown to consider returning Mauao to the ownership of tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI would also like to recognise the kaum\u0101tua of Tauranga Moana Iwi and the trustees of the Mauao Trust, who have demonstrated considerable patience while the technical aspects of the bill have been finalised. I recall meeting the trustees and iwi representatives on 11 August 2007 in Tauranga when we signed an agreement to introduce this bill. That in itself was a significant milestone after many, many months of discussion, negotiation, and finalising the finer points of the transfer proposals to return Mauao to the iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill transfers the fee simple estate to iwi. Like other maunga tapu, the hap\u016B and iwi of Tauranga Moana are bound to their ancestral mountain, Mauao. The whakatauk\u012B \u201CKo Mauao te maunga, ko Tauranga te moana\u201D reflects the central part of Mauao in their collective identity from times gone by and into the future. This bill gives effect to the agreement that was signed by the Crown, Tauranga Moana Iwi, the trustees, and Waitaha representatives on 11 August 2007 to introduce vesting legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill will transfer the fee simple estate of the Mauao historic reserve to Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga. Mauao will retain its historic reserve status under the Reserves Act 1977, but, as the Act does not provide for the transfer of reserves, enabling legislation is necessary. The bill guarantees that the public will continue to enjoy access to Mauao, and the Tauranga City Council will continue to administer the reserve. The increased involvement of iwi over time will complement and enhance the already iconic status that Mauao has for the country. This bill and the agreement it seeks to implement are not consideration of any Treaty settlement, nor will the bill affect any historical Treaty negotiations in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill is not long with 16 clauses. Its brevity, however, should not be seen to overshadow its significance. The vesting of the fee simple estate in iwi recognises the mana of Mauao. It is not concerned with determining ownership or mana whenua at 1840. It recognises that each of the four iwi have, through the ages, had significant ties to Mauao that are enduring for those iwi and hap\u016B today. The Waitangi Tribunal understands that all the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga, and Waitaha have associations with Tauranga Moana and Mauao. This bill fulfils the initiative of those representatives of Tauranga Moana and makes good on the agreement brokered by the body mandated by the iwi to progress the proposal through to legislation\u2014Te R\u016Bnanganui o Tauranga Moana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EFor these reasons I consider that the bill should proceed without delay to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and be reported back on or before 31 March 2008. This will allow the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee sufficient time to receive submissions on the bill after the Christmas break. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002220a0c0f58243488bb50d510158645898\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220a0c0f58243488bb50d510158645898\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E After 8 years we all of a sudden have four bills from the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. That is an amazing stint. Why now, and what is the rush?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I want to concentrate on Mauao. Myself and my colleagues the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, Chris Finlayson, and the local member Bob Clarkson sat down with some of the local people. We asked them whether the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill was a good thing. They said that it was, but they had one big gripe. And that one big gripe was that it was a Clayton\u2019s bill. Basically, the bill says: \u201CYou can have Mauao, your historic maunga, but you don\u2019t really get it; all you get is a name on a piece of paper, and that is all you\u2019re going to get.\u201D And it says so in the bill: \u201Cthe Crown, for all legal purposes, continues to bear the rights and obligations in respect of the reserve \u2026 as if the fee simple in the reserve were still vested in the Crown.\u201D That is what the bill states; that is not from us. That is, I suppose, an issue with the local people. They still think that there could be some movement on this bill, even though they, and we, support the Government in putting it forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EMembers will hear from my colleagues and me that we are not opposed to this measure. What we are opposed to, I suppose, is the fact that these sorts of bills are becoming far too frequent\u2014where someone is gifted something, but not really. One does not really get the Christmas present. One is getting a Christmas present, but Santa Claus is saying: \u201CYou can have this, but not really.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225a4fd3fffbd435b97449598383d5e61\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Even if that is what the iwi wants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e473f6818ba04ecab1278465e5703d43\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, hang on. The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs is saying that that is what the iwi wants. Well, actually, we were there. We talked to the local iwi, and the local iwi said this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255b9c20ac5dd47ee8d91ba63420c5a6d\u0022\u003EHon Mita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: No you didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f044f4cd93a4376bb26490572f4535c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so where were we when we met with the local people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf9af36c61c475ca0de6ae8893941ca\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: In cuckoo-land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd8af6e44b14496bc648b03e5168d75\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs is now saying that the local iwi office is in cuckoo-land. The people in Tauranga should know that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has just referred to their officers as being in cuckoo-land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWe were there. We were even there with Te Ururoa Flavell from the M\u0101ori Party. We heard from the local people, and the local people told us that they were being forced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293878dbe1878430f8218cd2f4c65e1be\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I bet he loves Gerry Brownlee!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230802d1b992843508338d10fa1b804a0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, they were being forced to sign and agree with this. What worries me is that although it is a good thing that we recognise the historic, traditional, and cultural\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664c274f497b42b989148dba4e49fe49\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: But!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220320414f6a1b4dd381a6d955e8f02e78\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is a \u201Cbut\u201D, because the Crown gets away with too much. If the local people say they do not want it, then the Crown walks away. It is no skin off the Crown\u2019s nose whatsoever. But for over 100 years the local people have been saying: \u201CPlease hand back the title to this maunga.\u201D In essence, they are being told that they will get the fee simple title, but not really. Everything shall remain the same, even though there is a bill stating that they will get the maunga back. They cannot do anything with it. They have to work with other people. That is fine. Let them work with other people\u2014let them do all sorts of things\u2014but at the end of the day this bill is a do-nothing bill. It forces the local people into saying: \u201CYes, we want a Christmas present even though we are not really going to get to play with the toy.\u201D I just wonder whether we could have done a wee bit more than what we are doing now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to turn my thoughts now to 8 years of this administration, for good or for bad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbb759e39434afdaf90edde367b378d\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Mostly good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212fc58969de5414cbac3b39c37476bdf\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Mostly bad, thank you, Darren. I want to turn my thoughts to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who, within the space of 24 hours, will have introduced three bills into this House. One or two of his bills are controversial, and one or two are purely and simply mechanical bills. Suddenly the Minister has got busy. Suddenly Te Puni K\u014Dkiri has got busy. Suddenly the Minister has looked at the calendar and thought to himself: \u201CCrikey we\u2019ve got an election soon. I had better get busy. I had better say to the public: \u2018Look what I\u2019ve done over the last 8 years of a useless administration.\u2019 \u201D. It has been a no-hoper administration. So the Minister comes to the House in urgency, just before everybody is about to go on holiday, and he introduces three bills. For 8 years he has been sitting on $180,000 a year, and a Crown car, and all he has come up with in those 8 years is three or four bills. One of those bills, which we are talking about today, forces the local people to sign on the dotted line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIf that is the sum total of the 8 years in office of this Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, then the M\u0101ori community is in bad shape. I think the M\u0101ori community is in good shape, despite the Minister. I think the M\u0101ori community is in good shape, not because of this administration, which wants to give and take with the same bill, but because it wants to be in good shape and to move on. It is doing things, despite this Government. It is not because of this Government that M\u0101ori are succeeding beyond people\u2019s imagination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWe have had 8 years of this administration, and suddenly we have four bills. Why now? What is the rush just before Christmas? We are here in urgency, and urgency requires that there is something urgent to be brought to the House. The word is \u201Curgency\u201D. I know that the Leader of the House may have had something urgent to bring to the House\u2014or he may not have\u2014but certainly this bill is not urgent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86ec850fba946f98d790d6b4f4027a0\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you don\u2019t want them to have it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228470167743b74e3f8e3d96f5929f0be1\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should ask the local people\u2014you know, the ones he said lived in cuckoo-land. It was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs who said that those people up in Tauranga lived in cuckoo-land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9e341ff09e447b89141fc65c6d5acb\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You are making it up, Tau. You\u2019re always in cuckoo-land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cc8a225e7ac47a19af586098ed90b74\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can read his Hansard afterwards; that is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EAfter 8 years all we have is a bill that says the local people can have something, but not really. They can sit on a committee, but not really. They can sit around the table and make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205ab57241dd04346b5ec4c563558c409\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: What did you give them, Tau? You gave them nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d7ad678f3e47579b21006773eaf7d0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That is what we hear after 8 years of uselessness. After 8 years of doing nothing, the Minister suddenly sees the writing on the wall and he says: \u201CWhoops-a-daisy, I had better put something on the agenda so that the people out there can think that I have been doing something.\u201D Well, I have news for the Minister, and it is all bad. Come election day, people will not worry about the four bills the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs tried to put up in the last days of this session. They will be thinking about the future of M\u0101oridom and they will not be looking backwards, as the Minister will be come the day after the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc81ba1c78524ccab7d99fb3108421b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc81ba1c78524ccab7d99fb3108421b4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E E ng\u0101 iwi o Tauranga Moana, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I am very pleased to take a call on the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. Unlike the bill that the Minister rammed through its first reading last night, the Waka Umanga (M\u0101ori Corporations) Bill, which no M\u0101ori leader, as far as I know, and no M\u0101ori tribe, as far as I know, requested, asked for, or wanted, this bill is different. The presence of some of the locals from Tauranga Moana in the House today hopefully says something about the level of support for the bill now before us. That makes me feel comfortable about standing and, on behalf of National, supporting this bill through its first reading and on to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMy colleague the Hon Tau Henare is right, though. He and I, and two others of our colleagues, did meet recently with some of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi and we got a sense that they felt a little bit cheated that on the one hand Mount Maunganui is being returned to them, at least in the form of a vesting in trustees for the Tauranga Moana iwi, but on the other hand, as Tau Henare said, it was a Clayton\u2019s return. That is a shame and it takes some of the gloss off what should otherwise be a very important and significant moment in their history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EHowever, we are very happy to support the bill\u2019s first reading because we are told there is a general level of support for it. It is something that the iwi of Tauranga Moana have been asking for over a long number of years. Here we are today considering this bill, admittedly under urgency, but I guess that for them they would see it as a priority for the House to give this bill some urgency. Most M\u0101ori who have been waiting for the return of assets, or the vesting of various pieces of land or landscape to be returned to them, have been waiting for a long time, so if we are in urgency this is a bill that ought to get priority, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis House will have become accustomed to the importance of maunga to tribes, and although parliamentarians may not have been aware of it 15 years ago or two decades ago, they are certainly now aware of the importance of natural landscape features to M\u0101ori. All of us M\u0101ori in the House who sit here today can be identified through our maunga, our awa, and our land, and that is why this should be seen as something very important for these several iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe example was set by a National Government back in the 1990s, which recognised the importance of these things. I guess there is room in the future for further recognition of other maunga. We will not say where they sit, but it is not far from here. Who knows whether there is a way of getting a form of ownership back. Even though it is not really ownership, it is certainly a recognition of the importance of maunga to iwi and no doubt other iwi will be very interested in seeing what is going on here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has outlined, Mount Maunganui, which was acquired by the Crown in the 1880s, has been administered as a historic reserve since 1981. Essentially, it will carry on in that vein, except that it will be vested in trustees consisting of representatives of the three iwi\u2014Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga\u2014and all of the activity that has gone on before on this maunga will continue. That was an issue that my colleague Bob Clarkson, the local member for Tauranga, was intent on ensuring, as we all were. No doubt he will articulate these issues when he takes a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EBob was with us when we had a meeting with representatives of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, and it is very clear that he is a good local member. He is a very good local member. He is an excellent local member, because he has this pretty wide view of the interests of all, but he has a keen sense of how important the vesting of this maunga is to the iwi. That is why he is in the House today, and that is why he will also support this bill going to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ENational members support this bill, and there is probably not a lot more that could be said about it. We support it for very good reasons. This vesting is wanted by the iwi, it is something they have yearned for for a long time, and it is part of the way that they identify themselves. Like all iwi, of course, I identify myself with Ng\u0101uruhoe and Tongariro, the mountains in the middle of the North Island, and I can totally accept why this vesting would be important to them. It is just a pity that they feel this reservation that they supposedly get ownership but they do not. But I think that on the other side of that equation, the upside is that if they were to get complete ownership, they would also get all the liabilities and obligations that go with it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b999a63e4f422282e7f1c77a40f7f3\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear! Ka pai, Georgina.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe1b7c38b5a4f67b748d13297d12467\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u0101e, I thank the Minister very much\u2014and, of course, that then becomes a return of an asset that could end up being a little bit of a chain around one\u2019s neck. But that is up to them to decide, and they have decided it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe will look at this bill in the select committee. We probably will not spend too long on it, because it is reasonably simple, but obviously if there are deeper concerns about the form of vesting\u2014the sort of Clayton\u2019s ownership that is being returned\u2014then we will hear from them on that. But, as I say, it is quite good to leave all the responsibility with someone else and still be able to say \u201CWe own that mountain.\u201D National supports this bill going to a select committee, and my colleague the local member Bob Clarkson will have other things to say about it. I am pleased to be here today to acknowledge the iwi of Tauranga Moana and to acknowledge this step in their development and their future progress forward. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3335b3e5213486297a9a56d1f3ebe72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3335b3e5213486297a9a56d1f3ebe72\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill, which will acknowledge the significance of this important ancestral mountain to the tangata whenua of Tauranga Moana while preserving the conservation values of Mauao to the nation. One of the principles of this bill is about the Tauranga community coming together with the iwi and Tauranga Moana, and supporting the principle of preserving the conservation values of Mauao to the nation. I think that is quite significant, because it shows that where there is a willingness within the community to work together and support a common goal, we end up with good legislation that supports that principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe transfer will recognise the value of Mauao to iwi and will elevate the values already associated with the Mauao historic reserve. The bill does not include the recreation reserve at the foot of Mauao, but it includes the three parcels that comprise the historic reserve\u2014the bulk of the mountain. From the outset kaum\u0101tua have expressed their desire to protect Mauao from alienation and commercialisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThis bill provides for the continuance of the provisions of the Reserves Act 1977, which already provides for those key planks. Clause 6 of the bill prohibits the trustees from disposing of, transferring, or charging the reserve or any part of it. Similarly, the bill prevents the Minister of Conservation from exercising any power under section 26 of the Reserves Act 1977 to vest the reserve in other persons. The bill therefore achieves the transfer of the fee simple estate in Mauao historic reserve to Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga in perpetuity. The only remunerative activity that could occur would be under the provisions of the Reserves Act. For example, interpretive tours could be undertaken and the receipts paid back into the administration of that activity. Third-party access and use rights for the incumbents, such as those regarding the reservoir navigational beacon and trig station, will continue, and public access is guaranteed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThere is no intention to revoke the reserve status of Mauao historic reserve. The Minister of Conservation will retain the power to appoint the administering body of the Mauao historic reserve. I consider this bill to provide a great compromise that provides for iwi to own the reserve as its registered proprietors, and for all New Zealanders to continue to enjoy Mauao. The bill does not preclude iwi from investigating options with the Crown and the Tauranga City Council around the joint management of the historic reserve under the Reserves Act 1977 in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EI would like to mention some of the finer points of the bill. Clause 7 has been the source of some debate. It provides that the Mauao historic reserve must be treated as if the fee simple estate were still vested in the Crown. Although that clause may sound contradictory with the proposal to transfer the ownership of Mauao, it is necessary for several reasons that clause 7 provides that the Crown, for all legal purposes, continues to bear the rights and obligations in respect of the reserve as if it were the owner of the reserve. This clause ensures that the trustees of the Mauao Trust are not liable for any obligations that currently fall to the Crown, such as those under the Building Act 2004 that the holder of the fee simple estate may have in relation to the structures, or alterations to structures, on the reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EClause 8 is a particular application of clause 7, and it provides that the Mauao historic reserve remains a historic reserve and that, in respect of it, the Minister of Conservation continues to have the functions, obligations, and powers of the Minister in relation to a reserve vested in the Crown. Clause 8 also maintains the current position of the Tauranga City Council as the administering body for the reserve. Without the explicit provisions in clauses 7 and 8, the Minister of Conservation would not be able to appoint that administering body, and the legal status of the reserve would be unclear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe Tauranga Moana iwi and Waitaha are to assume more of a role in managing the Mauao historic reserve in future. When the administration infrastructure is in place the full extent of the rights, obligations, and potential liabilities associated with that will fall to the trustees of the management body. Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga, and Waitaha are currently represented on an advisory committee that has input into council management decisions over the reserve. A revised proposal recently submitted to the Government, which formed the basis of the agreement by iwi to progress this bill, includes Waitaha also being represented at the management level. Tauranga Moana iwi and Waitaha have signed the agreement and have indicated broad support for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EIn summary, speaking as the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, we look forward to receiving this bill. We look forward to being given the opportunity to analyse this bill through the select committee process, and obviously we will be commending it when it comes back to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2de5574e4bd44f2a1c5959312b75186\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2de5574e4bd44f2a1c5959312b75186\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a short call on the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. The Greens are very pleased to support the bill going to the select committee, and we are pleased to hear that there is generally broad support for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI agree with the Hon Georgina te Heuheu that it would be nice to see more of this kind of legislation, where recognition is given to M\u0101ori for their ownership, where there is recognition that title is not something to be feared by the community, and where one can enable M\u0101ori and iwi to have title of their traditional properties without it being used as a scaremongering tactic, as we have seen in the past with other kinds of properties. It does not have to be done within the framework of the Treaty settlement but through other more rational processes with the Government and with Government agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, I was not able to meet with the iwi before this bill came to the House, but I do understand that there is generally broad support, and I certainly take the advice of other colleagues who have spoken with them about that. In so far as the bill provides for the maunga to go back to those who are its traditional, original, and rightful owners, the Greens are very pleased to be able to enable that to occur to some extent. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002237f31b8bc28c477aa81f9216a9b7c79c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237f31b8bc28c477aa81f9216a9b7c79c\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take just a very brief call also on the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. I support the bill\u2019s intent, and I support its being sent to the select committee. There would have been a time in New Zealand\u2019s history when Mauao would have been known only as Mount Maunganui, which is tied to the shackles of our colonial past, but this bill certainly signals a new way forward. The bill should be supported. The intent with which those people who want to see the restoration of the maunga back to iwi happen should be supported. The bill should also be supported because there is clearly an intention to maintain a link with everybody who now sees Mauao as their maunga, not just the iwi of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga but also the people of Tauranga. This is a model of what is perhaps possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ESome of the members who spoke before me pointed to the issue of what the benefit would be of giving back a maunga in fee simple title when the management still rests, to some extent, with the local authority. I will tell members what the benefit is. Partly, the benefit is to ensure that iwi are now a very critical part of the management of Mauao. The other aspect is that it locks in a long-term relationship with the local authority, no matter who the people around the council table of the day are, and it enables iwi to say: \u201CThis is what we want to see happen with our maunga.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other benefit, which is made clear by the very nature of the name of this bill\u2014the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill\u2014is that the identity of that maunga within that rohe will now be forever known as Mauao. I think the benefits of that, when leveraged by iwi, will be realised in the tourism sector, because now, more than ever before, it is not just our clean, green image that is well recognised in terms of our identity throughout the world but also the living landscapes that exist and the stories we have within our areas. So people will want to know about Mauao. Just as people know about the volcanic cones in Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua land, and now a whole industry shares the history of T\u0101maki-makau-rau with all visitors\u2014New Zealanders and international visitors\u2014so too can the opportunity be for Mauao. Therein lies the benefit of vision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI certainly support the intent of local iwi to see their maunga returned and vested in them. Clearly, recognition of the mana of Mauao within the district will be realised in current-day opportunities, and certainly tourism is one part of that. More critically, the opportunity to leverage a long-term relationship with local authorities in the long-term management of Mauao is something that we will continue to see realised as a result of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI applaud the hard work and effort of the local member Mita Ririnui, and also the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, Parekura Horomia, for bringing this bill to the House. In spite of the assertion by Tau Henare that the bill has come forward all of a sudden, I say that, no, this bill has taken some time, and people have had to get their minds around it. What does it really mean? Is it of benefit or is it not? Is it something that will realise opportunity or will it not? Those types of things take time, and, really, in the sense of good faith, both the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and the Associate Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations have taken a coordinated approach to ensure that they are working in sync with the people who are really set to benefit from this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI say to the people of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga that they have set a fine model. It is our role, along every part of the way, to ensure that that can be realised. I see future opportunities and potential models for other iwi, but it could be something else. We should always uphold the principle that where there is greater benefit to the broader interests of all New Zealanders, then surely we should support that. I would hate to see people make politics of it at this stage of the process, and I would like to see full support for the intent of this bill. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4dcacd50c3043d7a39f0cbacc761d99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4dcacd50c3043d7a39f0cbacc761d99\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki): \u003C/span\u003EMadam Speaker, kia ora t\u0101tau katoa. Tauranga Moana, m\u0113n\u0101 kai te whakarongo mai koutou i te w\u0101 k\u0101inga, t\u0113r\u0101 pea kai runga i te rori, \u0101, t\u0113r\u0101 pea kai te noho mai i ng\u0101 pakitara o te Whare nei, ko t\u0101ku noa ake ki te whaiwhai haere i ng\u0101 mihi \u0101 t\u0113n\u0101, \u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 ki a koutou,\u00A0t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all, Madam Speaker. To you of the Tauranga Harbour, whether you are listening in perhaps from home, on the road, or seated within the confines of this House, my part is merely to follow up the acknowledgments made by each of those before me, saying: greetings to you, greetings to you, and to all of us.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere is a short video clip on YouTube called \u201CMauao Bombs\u201D, which features some M\u0101ori kids in baggy, black pants doing bombs off Salisbury Wharf in Tauranga. The creative acrobatics and diving prowess of these young rangatahi is capped off at the end of the clip by a close-up of a sign that states \u201CNO JUMPING\u201D. The comments alongside the video clip state: \u201CIt\u2019s a shame the council decided after decades of fun to ban jumping from this wharf.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWith a healthy appreciation of the skills that are required to jump off a bridge, having spent some of my childhood perfecting the art of bombing at school and anywhere else I could show off, I can say that the video grabbed my attention as I was thinking about this Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. For those who are unfamiliar with the name, by the way\u2014and it has been discussed already\u2014Mauao is the original name for what is now known to most as Mount Maunganui in Tauranga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe video made me wonder whether the mana and integrity of Tauranga Moana iwi will be as constrained by the enactments of this bill as the Mauao boys are constrained by the local council by-laws. The big question, as we consider this bill, is how the ownership rights of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga will be respected, when all rights remain with the Crown through the Minister of Conservation, devolved in part to the Tauranga City Council. That is the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWho will end up doing the jumping and who will end up nailing down the signs of possession and control? I ask this question with all due respect to the signatories from Tauranga Moana. As I understand it, Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga sought a comprehensive package in respect of the transfer of title, management arrangements, and Treaty settlement negotiations for Mauao. Their expectation was that they would receive the entire Mauao historic reserve. Their expectation was also that the process and outcome would uphold the mana of the three iwi of Tauranga Moana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETo cut to the chase, I say that they want their maunga back. It is that simple. In case someone tries to use the old scare tactic of saying that M\u0101ori will not allow access, I am clear that that claim is absolute rubbish, just as it was for the seabed and foreshore legislation. The challenge for this House is to gauge whether the way in which this bill vests the fee simple estate of Mauao historic reserve in the trustees of the Mauao Trust goes anywhere near to reaching this expectation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn its most practical form, the bill gives effect to the agreement to introduce vesting legislation in relation to Mauao, signed by the Crown and iwi in August of this year. Importantly, the bill makes explicit the objective of the Crown. The Crown says that it is all about building healthy relationships with Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga, and Waitaha. On the face of it, it all seems to be pretty good stuff\u2014positive expectations of the iwi, constructive commitment from the Crown, and, at the heart of it all, acknowledgment of the historic significance of Mauao. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs the story goes, I am told that the Patupaiarehe gave the name Mauao to this mountain following a battle of love between a humble nameless hill and a great chiefly mountain, \u014Ct\u0101newainuku, both of whom were vying for the love of P\u016Bwhenua. Unsuccessful in his pursuit for the heart of P\u016Bwhenua, the nameless one longed for the sea. The Patupaiarehe drew on all of their magical powers to drag him to the places where he now stands, which marks the entrance to Tauranga Moana. He became known as Mauao\u2014caught by the dawn\u2014and, in time, he has assumed greater mana than his lifelong rival \u014Ct\u0101newainuku. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMauao features throughout the mythologies, whakapapa, and k\u014Drero known to Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga, Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Waitaha. The archaeological landscape within the Mauao historic reserve is also of lasting local, national, and international significance. It represents the physical remains of approximately 600 years of human occupation. The archaeological features of Mauao have considerable cultural significance to iwi of Tauranga Moana. In short, it is the most sacred landmark of the whole Tauranga area, and is the reason that Tauranga iwi have actively resisted any commercial imposition on the mountain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHuge pa sites from Ng\u0101ti Ranginui and Waitaha were located on the mountain. The history also includes the occupation of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi iwi through the battle of K\u014Dk\u014Dwhai, and the archaeological heritage of Mauao as a w\u0101hi tapu ensures that the cultural and historical significance will never be lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere is also a post-contact history in which the Government of the late 1800s forcibly acquired ownership of the maunga by forcing owners to pay for expensive surveys of the land\u2014surveys that in themselves were so prohibitive that the owners were eventually placed under no alternative but to sell their interest to extinguish the debt. According to other records, fossicking by European settlers also desecrated the maunga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe sacred maunga of Mauao was central in the stories and whakapapa of Tauranga Moana iwi and Waitaha. His name features in the tribal pepeha. He is central to the mana, rangatiratanga, and kaitiakitanga of the three Tauranga Moana iwi. Members should think about it. Clause 7 of this bill states that the general law continues to apply as if the Mauao historic reserve was still vested in the Crown. What I am saying is that iwi have only the title. That is right; this is a Clayton\u2019s return of the maunga, which has the potential to completely stifle the ownership interests of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, and Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EYet again we remember the words of N\u014Dpea Panakareao at the signing of the Treaty, who passed comment: \u201CThe shadow of the land goes to Queen Victoria, but the substance remains to us.\u201D The problem is that only a year later he was to rephrase that original statement, concluding: \u201CThe substance of the land goes to the Europeans, the shadow only will be our portion.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the case of Mauao it must be said that there was concern about the difference between the shadow and the substance, even before the vesting agreement was signed. As I understand it, on 14 July this year Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga attended a ratification hui at Hairini Marae, at which 87 percent of them voted against the signing of the agreement. At this stage, the understanding was that if the vote of the four iwi was split, or consensus was not reached, another hui would be called a month later for a final vote to be taken. But, hello, what happened? Suddenly, the Crown intervened and shifted the threshold of the vote, concluding that a mere 66 percent of all voters would be sufficient\u2014a decision made without consulting or notifying the iwi r\u016Bnanga, and in particular the people of Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga, in this case. It was all done in the shadow of the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe have on record information that informs us that Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga twice voted resoundingly for not signing the agreement. We also have statements that describe how the resolve of Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga has been tested unduly and unnecessarily, and I quote: \u201CThe process thus far has been seriously flawed and our people have been alienated because the mana of our iwi was not respected.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe contrast this statement with the emphasis the Crown gave in the preamble of the bill about its so-called commitment to healthy relationships with the iwi of Tauranga Moana. But yet again the Crown comes up sadly wanting. We have a situation in which to all intents and purposes Mauao remains in Crown ownership. We have a situation in which Tauranga Moana iwi were unable to find resolutions to their concerns about the long-term impacts of clause 7, which clearly sets out that the Crown continues to bear the rights and obligations as if it was the owner of the reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIwi wanted to know exactly how clause 7 would have an impact. Ng\u0101i Te Rangi remind us that although their old people wanted the maunga returned at all costs, the price of clause 7 may be too high. I have met with representatives of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, and some of them are not happy. It is the classic divide and rule tactic. It is the same old story with settlements: \u201CTake it or leave it. But if you leave it don\u2019t come back and don\u2019t do a tangiweto.\u201D So what happens? The people become divided. It is an all too familiar feature of the interactions set in train by Crown intervention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhat makes me angry is that the Crown will never fully understand the long-term impacts and trauma that come about through provoking such division. These are iwi, just like the high-spirited young boys jumping off the wharf, who see Mauao as being central to their identity and to the sense of who they are. They deserve the House\u2019s full respect for the way they have acted and for the integrity and commitment they have always upheld in trying to achieve the best outcomes for Tauranga Moana iwi and for Mauao. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill going through to the select committee to ensure that all the voices that need to be heard in this debate have the chance to put their concerns. But we will be watching to see that securing Mauao remains of the highest priority for those iwi who have always called it \u201CHe maunga tipua, he maunga tapu, \u0101e, he maunga nui\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecda075b4af546429b3c44b2fb147cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecda075b4af546429b3c44b2fb147cc8\u0022\u003EBOB CLARKSON (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to see everybody heading in the same direction. We are not actually even slagging off each other, which I think is a pretty good sign. I keep going up to the Waitangi celebrations on the top of the Mount, and I have to say \u201Csorry\u201D every time I go up. The various M\u0101ori groups know what I am talking about. I am talking about the ownership of the Mount. I have done that for several years now and it is quite sickening. So it is good to see a bit of movement here. I am pleased to talk on this Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill, of course, because the Mount is in my area and is quite dominant within it. I do not see too much wrong with doing this deal. It will help to build a healthy relationship between the Crown and the different M\u0101ori groups. Sad to say, it is a bit of a Clayton\u2019s deal. We are vesting it to the M\u0101ori groups; we are not giving it to them. This needs to be debated in the select committee to see whether there is a better way to do it. By partly giving it, it will be kept out of the Treaty settlements, because there is no monetary gain in the future. If it was a simple transfer of title, it could be argued that it could be part of a land Treaty settlement\u2014which might drag on for years\u2014and have a value put on it. I do not think that the people of Tauranga would be happy to give full title; they want free access to walk around or up the Mount at any time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f75d690cf247aca3eb2142d939a941\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what Georgina said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244b601412c02464993e1ee1879b4f3eb\u0022\u003EBOB CLARKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I said that there was no heckling today. And that access would be for the foreseeable future. Full title might cause some access problems in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003EA couple of points need to be dealt with in the select committee. If extra access rights are needed for various things, like water reticulation, water tanks, navigation lights, and those things, some provisions might have to be put in the bill to cover them in the future\u2014there are some access provisions in it at the moment\u2014but only if they are needed for good reason. It should be made clear how we will deal with those issues. We do not need a situation whereby a future Minister can revoke the reserve status and the land become private property. This needs discussing in the select committee, as well. I want to hear clearly that the camping ground is out of the equation and will not be affected. I believe it is, but I would like to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003EGenerally, to finish my short speech, let us get a result. It is good to see us all moving in the same direction. I think we can get a result out of this, and we need to. I need the ownership declared, because I have asked the M\u0101ori groups up there to bury me on the top of the Mount when it is all sorted out. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7ea44a0179d42148a080462362a7d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7ea44a0179d42148a080462362a7d08\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou. I rise, naturally, to support the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. But before I do that I want to acknowledge something very important that I almost overlooked. A tremendous event took place this morning in Parliament: the signing of the Te \u0100tiawa (Te Whanga-nui-a-Tara) agreement in principle in relation to their historic claim. That is a huge achievement not only for the Government but, in particular, for Te \u0100tiawa. The k\u014Drero here in the meeting room echoed how we must appreciate our arrival at this point. So I congratulate the Minister, and all the Ministers\u2014including me\u2014who were involved in bringing the claim to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear in this House that our ancestral association with our maunga Mauao has never, never, never been severed\u2014not by anyone. I recite these words, which we call our popular pepeha: \u201CPapaki t\u016B ana ng\u0101 tai ki Mauao, i whakanukunukuhia, i whakanekenekehia. I whiua reretia e Hotu rawa, he mea rua ki te wai, ki tai wiw\u012B, ki tai waw\u0101, te whai ao, te ao m\u0101rama, tihei mauri ora.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[The tides rendered and crashed upon Mauao, casting the waters about in turbulent movements. Hotu cast two things upon the tides here and yonder. Upon the physical world and the world of enlightenment as well, and behold there was life.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EEssentially that pepeha is attributed to the arrival of the Tainui waka into the Tauranga Harbour. On its arrival there was not much of a welcoming committee. The seas were high, the winds were strong, and the weather was bad. The ariki of the Tainui canoe, Huturoa, said that there was a bad spirit here, and that we had to make a sacrifice. So an old woman from the canoe said \u201CI will be the sacrifice.\u201D, and threw herself into the tide. From that moment on the seas settled, the clouds cleared, the wind went away, and settlement began. So we called Mauao, Mount Maunganui, our maunga iringa k\u014Drero. All our history, all our poetry, all our culture surrounds this particular maunga at the mouth of the Tauranga Harbour. When people go on and on about transferral, fee simple title, and Clayton\u2019s arrangements, I wonder to myself what those people are talking about. This is our ancestral maunga. Its mana has always been with us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this legislation is basically to bring authorities at a local level into line so that we can manage this very important taonga resource in an appropriate manner. That is what this is about. But there are roles and responsibilities for all those involved. Clause 3 of this transfer bill highlights what some of those are, including the obligations of the Crown. In other words, it removes the obligation of the trustees of the Mauao Trust from any public liability, and that is an honourable thing. That is an acknowledgment of the status of local tangata whenua, and we applaud that, regardless of what has been said in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EWhen people use the word \u201CClayton\u2019s\u201D, the only Clayton\u2019s phrase that comes to mind for me is \u201CClayton\u2019s consultation\u201D. What the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, the Hon Tau Henare, the local member, Bob Clarkson, and the member for Waiariki, Te Ururoa Flavell, had with a small organisation in Tauranga is Clayton\u2019s consultation. If they had gone right through the moana and talked to everyone, they would have come back with a better appreciation\u2014and certainly with a better line. So when I use this tone of voice, it is because I realise that although some people who have spoken in this House live very close to the vicinity of the maunga, they have no understanding of its people and iwi dynamics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EWhen I stand to support this Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill, I have to make it clear that our relationship with our ancestral maunga comes in many different forms. We describe it in the first sense as spiritual. In the second sense, it is historic. In the third sense, it is cultural. In the fourth, and very important, sense, it is economic, because it did form part of the base of the economic development in the times before colonisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI want to respond to the member for Tauranga\u2019s comments around his desire to be buried up on that maunga. I say to Bob that I am sorry, but it cannot be done. There was a point some time this year where he made that statement clear and I offered to do it for him straight away, but that was not to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI need to acknowledge the wisdom of many of the kaum\u0101tua of Tauranga who have been involved in this project right from its inception, but to do that I need to go right back to our old kaum\u0101tua rangatira, who have always asked the question of why our maunga has been alienated from its people. As I come forward into more contemporary times, up to the 1960s and 1970s, and I think about the decisions that were made by local authorities to alienate the Mauao even further from the people, including the public, I am reminded of people like my kaum\u0101tua Turirangi Te Kani; Charlie Kuka; Bill \u014Chia; and my uncle and predecessor, the member for Eastern Maori, Paraone R\u0113witi, who lobbied Parliament for justice in terms of the return of this ancestral maunga to the people of Tauranga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EBut as you will recall, Madam Speaker\u2014and I must acknowledge your role in bringing this legislation into the House\u2014even in the year 2000 a delegation of Tauranga moana kaum\u0101tua met with you for the very purpose of discussing ways and means of returning their maunga to them, although they did make it clear at that time that kei te pupuri tonu m\u0101tou i te mana o t\u014D m\u0101tou maunga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[We will continue to retain ownership of our mountain.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EEven though we still hold the mana of our maunga, we want it recognised in law, for its protection and everybody else\u2019s protection. So that is very important and it needs to be acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI acknowledge those who have passed on since that first meeting\u2014W\u012B Parer\u0101 Te Kani, a very, very instrumental person in bringing about very difficult decisions; the late Mike O\u2019Brien; and Kiri Toha Tangit\u016B, as mentioned by the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. I also acknowledge other kaum\u0101tua, including my uncle Kihi Ng\u0101tai and his wife; the representative from Waitaha, Tame McCausland and his wife; the Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga kaum\u0101tua, Monty \u014Chia and his wife; and also Ng\u0101ti Ranginui kaum\u0101tua M\u014Drehu Ng\u0101toko and his wh\u0101nau. Very important, wise, and level-headed people in Tauranga have been involved throughout these negotiations. They decided, following that first meeting with you and myself, that they wanted the return of the maunga in fee simple form, although they understood that public access was important. They had no intention whatsoever of preventing that from continuing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003ESo when I hear people in this House say that the people of Tauranga were forced to sign the agreement that transfers the maunga back to the people, I wonder where they get those stories from, because I have not been at any meetings where anybody has been forced to do anything, and I say that in all sincerity. The kaum\u0101tua of Tauranga made a decision. They wanted the maunga back, understanding that public access issues were involved. They can never be forced to do anything, and you yourself, Madam Speaker, are aware of that. They are very clear-minded people. I suppose some people, when it came close to signing the deed of transfer, regardless of the positions they took thought it important to have their names on the document. They were given the opportunity to do that. But to turn around in the next breath and say that they were forced to do it is a load of rubbish, and that needs to be said in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EOnce again, there are a lot of stories I could tell about this incredible maunga\u2014this maunga iringa k\u014Drero\u2014in this House, but I believe I have only 10 minutes, and one of the bells has already gone. So in closing, I thank yourself, Madam Speaker; my colleague the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs; the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, who spoke in this House earlier on and who does have an ancient association with the maunga with the arrival of the Tainui waka; and also the member Dave Hereora, who was very humble and modest when he spoke in the House and who also has the same connections to the maunga as I have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI appreciate in particular all those members on the other side of House\u2014the Greens, the M\u0101ori Party, and others, including the member for Tauranga\u2014because throughout this whole process an incredible level of patience has been shown by all parties. In conclusion, I thank the Mayor of Tauranga, Stuart Crosby, his councillors, his chief executive, and all the officers of the Tauranga City Council who did all the groundwork, all the legwork, to make sure this day happened. On that note, I thank everybody who contributed to the positive outcome of the return of the maunga Mauao to the people of Tauranga moana. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00221136548a15354b2bb586b72b7c4cb689\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221136548a15354b2bb586b72b7c4cb689\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, that the committee report back to the House on or before 27 March 2008, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192 and 195(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d159dcff52634d5bb4ad4d8cfd89d331\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aede2f0db2374cdf8e3db1b7bf2bb7b7\u0022\u003EInjury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221866ad756c144f39b3d6526def147f15\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022f60a291bbd064f05a033452ff216cbb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f60a291bbd064f05a033452ff216cbb6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for ACC: I move, That the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for consideration and that the committee present its final report on or before 12 May 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill continues the Government\u2019s commitment to a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme for reducing the incidence and impact of personal injury. This Government has already made substantial changes to the scheme, including returning responsibility for cover for workplace accidents to the Accident Compensation Corporation, and the introduction of the new treatment injury provisions. These changes have provided major steps in the Government\u2019s goal of making the scheme more responsive to the needs of claimants. This amendment bill continues to progress this goal by making changes to cover for work-related injuries, eligibility and entitlement to weekly compensation, and entitlement and processes for vocational rehabilitation and independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill makes some significant changes to cover provided for work-related injuries by extending this cover to include mental injuries caused by a single traumatic event, and by making changes to the cover provisions for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection. This Government believes that if a person is clearly harmed in the course of his or her employment, he or she should be covered by the scheme regardless of whether the injury was a result of an accident or an occupational illness. The changes proposed in this bill make that intent clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces cover for mental injury caused by exposure to a sudden traumatic event in the course of employment. This means, for example, that a train driver whose train hits somebody on the tracks, or a bank worker who witnesses a colleague shot during a robbery and goes on to develop a mental injury as a result, will now be covered by the accident compensation scheme. These people are entitled to the same benefits under this scheme as others harmed by their work. This cover will ensure appropriate treatment and rehabilitation, and it will help facilitate an early and sustainable return to work in cases where the claimant has to take time off. This is a major and progressive development for the scheme, and it brings New Zealand into line with the cover offered to workers in other overseas jurisdictions, including most Australian states, British Columbia, Ontario, Alberta, Denmark, and the United Kingdom. The bill provides cover for clinically significant mental injuries rather than temporary distress that constitutes a normal reaction to trauma. The bill does not introduce cover for mental injury caused by non-physical stress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill also responds to concerns expressed by the Ministerial Advisory Panel on Work-Related Gradual Process, Disease, or Infection. The panel highlighted the current test to determine cover for work-related conditions as being a barrier to cover for claimants. The bill introduces changes to the cover provisions for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection to ensure that people harmed by their work receive greater access to cover and more clarity around whether cover is available and how it is determined. It does this through amending the test of work causation set out in the existing Act, to provide greater certainty of cover for claimants with these conditions. In particular, the bill clarifies that the responsibility and cost for investigating a claim rests with the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes in the areas of weekly compensation. Weekly compensation is paid to claimants who are earning at the time of their injury, and is intended to provide earnings-related compensation so that claimants can meet their everyday expenses and focus on recovery. A review of the existing weekly compensation provisions was undertaken in response to concerns that seasonal workers were being disadvantaged by the current rules for calculating weekly compensation. Nearly a quarter of today\u2019s workforce is in non-standard work\u2014they work part time, are self-employed, undertake casual or seasonal work, or move in and out of employment. The bill updates the weekly compensation framework to improve access to weekly compensation in this increasingly varied labour market, particularly to seasonal and casual workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe changes to weekly compensation provisions make the assessment for claimants more reasonable and easier to understand. The bill provides fairer and more straightforward weekly compensation for seasonal and casual employees through improving access to weekly compensation for people who are injured while temporarily between jobs. The bill allows earlier access to minimum weekly compensation for certain claimants, and it increases the rates of weekly compensation paid to potential earners. In addition to providing weekly compensation to people who are unable to work because of their injuries, ACC also provides vocational rehabilitation to aid them in returning to work. The bill enhances the existing legislative provisions for vocational rehabilitation to provide better outcomes for the claimants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ETogether with the existing provisions, the changes help to ensure that injured people are able to return to work or to look for a job. This is important to people and their families as well as to the economy of New Zealand. The provision also provides a greater degree of flexibility to allow ACC to deliver the most appropriate rehabilitation to claimants. The bill provides ACC with the discretion to extend the current 3-year limit on vocational rehabilitation to enable ACC to meet the needs of the claimants where longer periods of vocational rehabilitation may be needed. It also\u2014and importantly\u2014removes the upper age limit for vocational rehabilitation to reflect the changing nature of our labour market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces a requirement for occupational assessors to consider a person\u2019s pre-injury earnings when identifying suitable work types. This provision helps to ensure that, where possible, jobs identified for claimants reflect their previous earnings. The bill also addresses a number of other policy issues and improvements aimed at making the scheme clearer and more responsive to the needs of claimants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) builds on the framework provided by the existing legislation, providing a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme for reducing the incidence and impact of personal injury, and it is a bill that is responsive to the needs of claimants. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022256d3417b671428fb641d28e840b886e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022256d3417b671428fb641d28e840b886e\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Forty years ago Sir Owen Woodhouse\u2019s report led to the establishment of a comprehensive 24-hour, no-fault, social insurance scheme. The two most defining features of it are, firstly, 24-hour cover for all personal injuries, regardless of fault, and, secondly, no right to sue for damages for such injuries. The accident compensation scheme has stood the test of time because its principles are clear, consistent, and concise. The report also outlined the importance of prevention, compensation, and rehabilitation. National supports those principles and that framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAs I say, the important features of the accident compensation scheme, such as conciseness, clarity, and consistency, are now coming under increasing threat, because the Labour Government is helping to make it complicated, compromising, and unsustainable. Let me demonstrate this by highlighting four provisions in this bill. Currently the Act covers mental injury in only two situations: mental injury suffered because of the claimant\u2019s physical injuries, and mental injury suffered as a result of certain types of sexual abuse or assault. This bill will introduce a new cover, for mental injury arising from a traumatic event in the workplace. Examples given include witnessing a colleague shot in a bank robbery. The annual cost of the claim, we understand, could amount to up to $72.2 million and it could lead to a potential increase in levies of between 1.3c and 12.1c of liable earnings per every $100. The cost will be funded solely from the work account, and the work account levy is from employers and the self-employed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut how about witnessing a colleague being shot in a bank robbery while on leave\u2014outside the staff\u2019s working hours? Would that be less dramatic? If not, why is the Government not proposing to cover that situation? The levy would have come from the earners account; the earners levy, of course, is imposed on the worker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a3e8df48fd4a0eb662195d8fb2c643\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the consistency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d89a4bfe794d53a7703e5c2ff6b277\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question from my colleague Dr Paul Hutchison. But what about customers who happen to be in the bank and witness the shooting of a bank clerk or feel the risk of being shot at, especially if they are children or elderly people? To cover that situation the levy would have to come from general tax, assuming those people were not working. So, once again, we want to know why traumatic mental coverage in this case is confined to only working hours in the employment situation, because one of the features of the Woodhouse report was not to distinguish between workers and non-workers. Therefore different funding streams are identified to cover the various situations, but the principle of personal injury or coverage should be the same. No matter whether a person is working or not working\u2014a different funding stream\u2014the cover should be consistent. In this case, the Government chooses to cover a situation simply because the funding tends to come from employers. We want to know why other situations are not being covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn the typical Labour way of doing things, it went ahead, raised expectations, and then introduced ambiguous terms so that individuals would have to prove the injury suffered. In this case \u201CThe event must be seen, heard or experienced by the person directly \u2026 and be one which could reasonably be expected to cause mental injury.\u201D One can just envisage the arguments and the views of experts involved. The process will drag on and on, and Parliament, I have no doubt, will be asked to introduce future amendments to simplify the provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe have a case in point because in this bill we are now asked to change the criteria to cover the work-related gradual process, disease, or infection. No sooner had Parliament passed that gradual process coverage into law, than we are now being asked to amend the legislation to make it work because not many people can qualify. I bet in the first instance that provision was brought in without detailed analysis and objective principles. The change now is to shift the responsibility and cost for investigation on to ACC, and if a person has exposure to the cause of injury both through work and non-work, the person will receive cover if the work exposure was the more likely cause\u2014and who is going to decide that? Also, if the person qualifies, a claim can be declined only if ACC proves that the work task or work environment places the claimant at no significantly greater risk of developing that personal injury. The estimated additional cost is $11 million, and the levy once again happens to come from the work account. I am not too sure these changes will actually make the provisions any simpler. All I can envisage is a lot more work for experts in the field to prove the claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAnother devious change is brought about in this bill to undermine Parliament\u2019s power to scrutinise the widening of the scope of schedule 2. At the moment, schedule 2 is where individual occupational diseases can be added, by Order in Council. But this course is introduced to change occupational disease to personal injuries defined by exposure to agents, chemicals, dusts, compounds, etc., or by occupational groupings, industry, or processes. This gives wide power to broaden the scope of claims, without the scrutiny of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is devious and underhand because if we look at the bill in a clause by clause analysis, all it states is that clause 30 will repeal section 336(1)(a) of the principal Act and substitute a new section 336(1)(a), which relates to new section 30(3). That is not exactly alerting Parliament and everybody else to that dramatic widening of the coverage of the claim. This broad brush, under-the-radar approach subsequently does away with any cost-benefit analysis. We do not even know how much it is going to cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe fourth provision that I want to comment on is the repeal of the entitlement for wilfully self-inflicted injury. At the moment the Act prohibits ACC from providing entitlements other than treatment for wilfully self-inflicted personal injury and suicide unless that personal injury or death is a result of mental injury. The reason for this change, we were told, is because apparently the research indicates that the vast majority of suicidal behaviour and wilfully self-inflicted injury is associated with having a mental health disorder. Having further proof of mental injury adds little value to the determination of cover. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut the Act intended to cover mental injury in only two situations: that suffered because of a claimant\u2019s physical injury and that suffered as a result of certain types of sexual abuse and assault. Now mental health disorder is classified as personal injury, and we do not even know how much that will cost. The inconsistency, the widening of the coverage without objective analysis, and the total disregard of the fundamental principle of accident compensation is irresponsible and unacceptable. We are told in the bill that we could be looking at a cost increase of up to $75 million. ACC is already recommending increases for next year\u2019s levy, and no doubt this will ensure escalating costs. Expectation has been raised on the one hand, yet the subjective nature of these new claims will ensure ongoing appeals and arguments between ACC and claimants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational will not support this bill because it will further undermine and endanger the long-term viability and defining feature of accident compensation, as outlined in the Woodhouse report 40 years ago. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The National Party would want the accident compensation scheme to continue with its defining feature: its comprehensive, 24-hour claims in exchange for not suing for damages. The last thing we want is any Act to undermine those defining features.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002241b2c6ed215f4afcbaba07a586d9a1e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241b2c6ed215f4afcbaba07a586d9a1e6\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) is a bill to be proud of, and I congratulate the new Minister for ACC, my friend and colleague Maryan Street, on its introduction. The bill deals with some of the harder issues for workers facing work-related injury or disease. It keeps pace with the changing world of work and work arrangements and ensures that our world-class accident compensation scheme continues to be fair and sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs we head towards the summer holidays, when most of us are able to have at least some time off, I am particularly conscious that there will be many New Zealanders working during this period. Retail workers, hospitality workers, care workers, transport workers, and tourism workers\u2014many of whom are casual and seasonal workers\u2014will all be at work. This is a time when there is a greater risk of work-related injury because of extra workloads, longer working hours, and fewer breaks. Sadly, some of these workers will become work-related injury casualties. But the good news is that we have an accident compensation scheme that is the envy of the world. We can be confident that most workers who find themselves in this situation will be adequately cared for. This Government is committed to ensuring that our accident compensation system is fair and responsive to all. The bill will close the gap for those workers who may in the past have been deprived of fair compensation. The Labour-led Government continues to work hard to eliminate any arrangement where workers can be disadvantaged, whether it be in relation to accident compensation or other minimum rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EConcerns have been raised that workers whose earnings fluctuate through the year because they are on casual or seasonal employment or some other form of non-standard work are being disadvantaged by the current rules for calculating weekly compensation. Although the current rules continue to meet the needs of people in standard work, nearly 21 percent of our workforce, or around 457,000 people, are in non-standard work. If they are unfortunate enough to have a work-related injury, the current calculations do not cut it. Weekly compensation is paid at 80 percent of a claimant\u2019s pre-injury earnings. It is intended to provide real and actual compensation so workers can meet their everyday living expenses and get on with their recovery. The reality in today\u2019s labour market for around one-quarter of the workforce is that current arrangements can put these workers at risk of receiving inadequate or no weekly compensation. The bill addresses this by changing the way weekly compensation is calculated for casual and seasonal workers so that the compensation is based on their earning periods, rather than on a combination of earning and non-earning periods. This is a particularly welcome amendment, given that casual and seasonal workers are more likely than permanent workers to face work injury. I know the amendment will be widely welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to cover for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection. The ministerial advisory panel has highlighted that the three-part test is a barrier for cover for payments with a work-related gradual process, disease, or infection. The burden of proof currently rests with the claimant, and this can be hard to meet. The Government\u2019s commitment to making these changes is reflected in the bill. It amends the three-part test of causation to clarify the threshold of allowable non-work exposure. In addition, the bill clarifies that the responsibility and cost for investigating a claim rests with the Accident Compensation Corporation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe bill also addresses cover for mental injury arising from traumatic events in the workplace. No cover is currently available for mental injury caused by a sudden traumatic event while that person is at work. We are all aware of awful situations that have occurred at work\u2014shocking accidents or crimes that have been witnessed by workers. I ask members to just go and talk to a train driver who has been in that situation. This exposure can lead to the development of long-term mental or psychological problems that impact on a person\u2019s ability to function day to day. This is an important and essential addition to the accident compensation scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, this week is the 40th anniversary of Sir Owen Woodhouse\u2019s recommendation to introduce what became one of the most revolutionary and innovative systems for accident compensation in the world. New Zealand\u2019s universal, no-fault accident compensation scheme has stood the test of time, and is still a landmark social insurance scheme of international significance. Since the 19th century, decent people have accepted that common law claims do not provide an equitable and socially desirable response to the industrial injuries of workers. Even way back then there was a growing belief that industry needed to have better regard for the welfare of its workers and that the costs of injuries should be borne as part of the costs of production. The first legislation in New Zealand to provide workers with a right to compensation for work injuries was the Workers\u2019 Compensation for Accidents Act in 1900. But New Zealand claimants had to prove injury by accident arriving out of, and in the course of, employment, before they were eligible for cover. Cover for disease was precluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EFrom 1940 coverage for industrial disease was gradually introduced. After the passing of the Workers\u2019 Compensation Act 1947, compensation became payable in respect of any disease contracted in the course of employment and due to the nature of employment. The Workers\u2019 Compensation Act 1956 provided a system of insurance at the expense of the employer of the worker against accidents arising out of, and in the course of, his or her employment. The benefits available under the Workers\u2019 Compensation Act 1956 proved far from satisfactory. The maximum compensation corresponded to approximately 52 percent of average weekly earnings and could be paid for only 6 years, after which it ceased automatically. Injured persons could sue for damages but they had to prove fault, and if they could not they got nothing. Of course, there was nothing available for those not in paid employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe dissatisfaction with that scheme led to the establishment of a royal commission of inquiry, chaired by the Rt Hon Sir Owen Woodhouse. As we all know, a key recommendation made by the commissioners was the abolition of common law claims for compensatory damages. It was recommended that New Zealand should replace the common law lottery with a comprehensive, meaningful, no-fault compensation scheme, in exchange for which those who had cover would surrender their right to sue. It is interesting to note that the 1972 Parliament voted unanimously to pass the Accident Compensation Bill into law, which demonstrates the consensus there was around the Woodhouse recommendations. Unfortunately, that all changed under the National Government of the 1990s. Listeners should have no doubt that if it gets the chance the National Party will wreck our accident compensation system again. It will privatise the system and sacrifice on the altar of privatisation the social contract that New Zealanders entered into all those years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EJohn Key has recently confirmed that National\u2019s policy is to re-establish a competitive market to provide accident insurance. When Murray McCully was the Minister for ACC he said that creating a competitive environment is a vital part of the reforms\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de596377d93a4fe18faa98127db0d67b\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s namedropping!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263e4c0d2598b4005a7440c9dfdf8c563\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr McCully should listen to what he said: \u201CInsurers, like everyone else, are in business to make a buck.\u201D I respect Shane Ardern, but even he said that accident insurance should be no different to any other form of insurance and that the most price competitive way of making this cover available to any industry in New Zealand is to let the insurance market compete for this business. He said it worked before and that it would work again. The truth is it did not work. It was a mess\u2014a major botch-up\u2014and the only people who did well out of it were the insurance company mates of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI welcome this bill; it is another step in this Labour-led Government\u2019s commitment to that very important social contract Sir Owen Woodhouse introduced 40 years ago. As a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, I look forward to hearing submissions and progressing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002284af1203141144809573962c23848c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284af1203141144809573962c23848c1f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2). I note there is a stark contrast between the objectives put out in the policy statement of the Government and the purpose described by the parliamentary Bills Digest, which was also put out. The Government goes into a long-winded waffle where it says the overall purpose of this bill is to continue the Government\u2019s commitment to a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme for reducing the incidence and impact of personal injury, etc., whereas the parliamentary Bills Digest says the purpose is to amend the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act 2001. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that National will not be supporting this bill, because we believe it has not been well-thought-out. It blurs the margins between injuries caused by accidents and other medical conditions, and it is extremely poorly costed, as Pansy Wong pointed out earlier and as I will do shortly. The Labour Government never managed to understand that when the accident compensation scheme came into being in the late 1970s, along with the substantial benefits gained\u2014and I must say it came into being under a National Government\u2014New Zealanders also lost the very important right to sue. Although there is absolutely no political inclination to change that situation, it is important to emphasise that New Zealanders made a substantial trade-off when they gave up that right to sue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eabec2173d324637b748e53fdc9a20ed\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: So they should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211658e27022a4660a76d4eb71a383353\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Tariana Turia. I do absolutely accept that. But we must not underestimate how important that loss of the right to sue is. For instance, I can give an example of a young man with a family of three, down in Queenstown, who had a traumatic incident that has left him a paraplegic. He had just started his business, so all his money had gone into that. He was therefore on a low income, and, for the rest of his life, at 80 percent of that income, he will not have the ability to be able to provide well for his young family. If he had the right to sue, he would have indeed received a substantial claim because, the way that it happened, the perpetrator was undoubtedly in the wrong. We must not underestimate just what has been lost, and therefore it is absolutely important that we make the scheme work as well as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere are several areas in this amendment bill that are particularly problematic to National. One of them is associated with the costings and the poor way in which the Government has gone about sorting out the costings related to mental harm from trauma at work, and the inconsistency, as again pointed out by Pansy Wong, that there is no provision for mental-harm compensation outside of work. It just seems extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other area, of course, is the way in which not only injuries but also gradual process conditions can be added to schedule 2 of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act 2001, which causes further blurring with other diseases and conditions. I think it is important to point out the situation with schedule 2, which does indeed give far wider power to broaden the scope, without the scrutiny of Parliament. It is a very, very much wider power, and again, as Pansy Wong pointed out, this is being introduced in a very devious way and not in a transparent way. If we look at clause 30, we see that section 336(1) is amended and paragraph (a) is repealed and substituted with \u201C(a) adding or varying the description of a personal injury, together with the corresponding\u2014(i) agents, dusts, compounds, substances, radiation, or things (as the case may be) and, if appropriate, the relevant level or extent of exposure to such agents, dusts, compounds, substances, radiation, or things; or (ii) occupations, industries, or processes; or\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThat indeed leaves a very wide scope with which a Government can, by Order in Council, introduce a whole series of things. We know that the aim of the Labour Party has been, for a long time, to equate disease with accidents where New Zealanders have given up the right to sue. If, indeed, this Labour Government had raised New Zealand from the lower half of the OECD into the upper half of the OECD, maybe it might be a reality to afford these things. But undoubtedly we have to spend every dollar wisely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is more than a coincidence that today at Auckland University there is a forum on accident compensation. It is marking and acknowledging the 40 years since Sir Owen Woodhouse outlined this plan. I think it is important, once again, to reiterate the five principles that he talked about: community responsibility, comprehensive entitlement, complete rehabilitation, real compensation, and administrative efficiency, which is one of the things that we are concerned about. In an article in the New Zealand Herald the other day, written by Associate Professor Rosemary Tobin, Susan St John, and Dr Grant Duncan, they say administrative efficiency is achieved in a collective scheme whose costs of administration are far lower than any private insurance arrangement could be. What absolute rubbish this is, because we know that the partnership programme and third party administrators have managed to deliver these services far more efficiently and effectively than the grand monopoly of the ACC itself. I think it is very important to point that out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAbout a year ago, when the issue of expanding the schedule of gradual disease process was being brought up, Simon Porter, who is a senior solicitor with the employment team at Bell Gully, noted that the biggest challenge with these diseases is in determining whether the onset was work-related or caused by other outside factors. He said that this is certainly Business New Zealand\u2019s main concern, and mentioned that chief executive Phil O\u2019Reilly has commented that although he does not object to the expansion of the list per se, he sees real problems with some of the proposed conditions. In particular, he questions how accurately hearing loss, one of the proposed new conditions, could be diagnosed as being caused by employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut I do want to talk just for a moment about the regulatory impact statement that this Government has brought out. It is way, way out of reality\u2014just have a look at the variability. In fact, we can see that the Government is costing vocational rehabilitation at about $1.7 million, and the upper age-limit for rehabilitation at about $1.17 million. I cannot for one moment accept that that is anywhere near realistic. But then we go to the changes to weekly compensation packages, and the variations go from $63 million to $138.6 million. That is a huge variation. How on earth does this Labour Government expect to gain any credibility whatsoever when it costs something as important as this so pathetically? Then, of course, the range for mental injury cover caused by work-related trauma went from $7.6 million to $72.2 million per year, which is almost 700 percent. That is absolutely pathetic, in terms of once again the Labour Government failing to do its homework on such an important issue. The Government says that the central cost of the cover for work-related gradual process is in the order of $11.835 million, but of course that does not cover all the new claims that would be accepted. The Government merely says that claims that have previously been declined are not likely to have an impact, as the reasons for their declination will not have changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThis amendment bill appears to be recklessly irresponsible by the Labour Government in several areas. The Government simply has not done its homework to find accurate costings of what it is proposing. As the Ministerial Advisory Panel on Work Related Gradual Process Disease or Infection pointed out, it recognises that further research was required to fully calculate the cost implications of the advisory panel\u2019s recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4186601b23641a7b20c986fd6078ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4186601b23641a7b20c986fd6078ec2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have listened to both the National Party spokespeople on accident compensation, and I cannot work out where they are coming from. They are advocating that we go back to the Woodhouse principles more strongly. [Interruption] Pansy Wong is saying yes to that. But the impression members on this side of the House have is that National wants to privatise accident compensation. [Interruption] Oh, National members have changed their minds on that. When did they do that? Was it last night, at the party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf that party over there is committed to the accident compensation structure, then its members should be voting for this bill. If they believe that accident compensation is the way to go, they should be voting for this bill, because this bill extends a number of improvements to accident victims. It is as simple as that. We can go on with this highfalutin waffle, but this bill extends significant improvements to a number of accident victims. The Minister clearly outlined in her speech that it extends cover to include mental injuries for single traumatic events. She used the example of the train driver. Is that guy not worth considering? Is he not worth some sort of cover? Do National members feel proud of themselves for voting that down? For that reason alone, they should vote for it. [Interruption] They cannot sit back and say no. Does that train driver need accident cover?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b443f59a1c5461188c258688e15edf6\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Look at the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdab2bba93a4d60a5ad68ed47f2beef\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have looked at the bill; I think the member should look at the bill. The member should pay attention to the bill and not just be blinded by political rhetoric.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI usually quite like Dr Hutchison\u2019s contributions to accident compensation debates. I have always put him down as a sound thinker. But he seems to be saying that this bill blurs the edges between accidents and sickness. I would say that that is a good move. If we could extend accident compensation cover to cover sickness, we would, would we not? It is a good move to blur the issue. That is not a retrograde step; that is a good move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere is one little thing in this bill\u2014maybe more than one\u2014that I want to stress, because I think it is a very good move. Somewhere in the bill is a clause that refers to the loss of potential earnings for young people. Paul Hutchison referred to the case of a younger person, and those are the sorts of circumstances I want to talk about. I ask members to imagine a young guy of 18\u2014or it could be a young lady\u2014who is doing exceedingly well at university. Perhaps that person will be a high-flying lawyer or a surgeon, or something that will really produce some income\u2014maybe almost as much as Grant Dalton\u2014so he or she can buy a $3 million section in Queenstown. Imagine that that this person takes a year off, works in his or her holiday period at the meatworks or on the wharves, and gets injured and is incapacitated for life. Right now that person would be getting peanuts. This bill at least acknowledges that that it is a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First fought hard for this when the Government renationalised accident compensation. We fought hard to get this sort of coverage. It is only very lukewarm coverage, but at least it is a move in the right direction. It is by no means adequate. We believe that in the longer term the Government will have to say that this young person I have hypothetically referred to should get fuller coverage. It should be recognised that he or she could be earning quite considerably in his or her more mature years and should get compensation for that. But this bill does open the door a little bit on that, and New Zealand First will be pressing for a better formula in terms of compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOne area that I thought was in the bill, which New Zealand First also feels very strongly about, is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fb4c22fdb554caf888c0faf1bd4ba93\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you\u2019d read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d29343ed8e2409c8d3d28940f600be9\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I know; Dr Hutchison can look at me, and he might well agree by looking at me\u2014this country is getting older. The population is getting older. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fb9b85aac24255b5dcecd8cb63a9be\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce74b95eaf543cf8f1e03fd0350594a\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, every year, as my colleague says. Every year we are depending more and more on mature people staying in the workforce longer. If we look at the accident compensation coverage they get and the treatment they get, we see that it is second rate. I thought this measure was in the bill. I was looking at it just before I came to the House, but now I cannot find it. But I can say that New Zealand First will support this bill for that very reason\u2014we will be trying to get that into the bill. We will try to get fairer coverage for older people. I know that the Greens will support this. They look at me and they say: \u201CYes, we need people like you to carry on for quite a while yet.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209eb3919cdf64382b5b87d7575971019\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc7176523ae4ea99064f81856931df5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eccfa830ecc642deb3d557bb722d334a\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been carrying on for quite some time already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c1185bf7f3b4cfaa1c9f4333ec80245\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have some news for the member: I will carry on for a little bit longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c843cafe0243ee87a08edd8b3b0c78\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: A perfect remedy for sleeping disorders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810a10c42bbe46d0929acff44f4bb4fd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill goes quite some way to addressing some concerns, but it does not go far enough, and New Zealand First will be pushing it a little bit further. On the negative side\u2014and my understanding has not been changed; someone will correct me if things have changed\u2014we still pay compensation to a person who gets injured whilst committing a crime. We will be asking the select committee to look at that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI do not think I need to say any more. The detail has been worked through, and I am sure that Mr Bennett will take a call and enlighten us even further as to why National are taking such a hard-hearted attitude to this bill. But New Zealand First will be supporting its referral to the select committee, where we will endeavour to improve it even more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be573989bacd497fbfe36d0fa7be5906\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7a594b9e54d43db9cde7cf4b8bc7c08\u0022\u003ECapital and Coast District Health Board\u2014Appointment of Crown Monitor\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c7cce42aaa438f9a76bde04fb32c43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c7cce42aaa438f9a76bde04fb32c43\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a ministerial statement under Standing Order 348 relating to the appointment of a Crown monitor for Capital and Coast District Health Board. Over recent months a number of issues relating to the management of Capital and Coast District Health Board have become significant concerns for the Government and for the Wellington community. Without at this time rehashing points that have already been made and fairly widely debated within this House, I will say that the quality of health services is a major priority for the Labour-led Government, that we invest heavily in it, and that we have achieved real and measurable improvements right across New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe priority we place on improving health services for our families also means that when our standards are not met, and when the public has a right to feel that their expectations are not being met, then the Government must act. At the Cabinet committee this week Ministers discussed the problems facing the board and a range of proposals to address them. We endeavoured not to make a decision in haste. We knew we had to get this decision right. The Government has just announced\u2014the Hon David Cunliffe being in Auckland today\u2014that a new chair and a Crown monitor will be appointed to Capital and Coast District Health Board. The Crown monitor, who will report directly to the Minister, is Dr Ian Brown, an obstetrician and gynaecologist, who is the current Director of Medical Services at the Northland District Health Board. He is also the former chair of the national Chief Medical Officers\u2019 Forum and has been a member of the National Medical Strategy Workforce Group. I acknowledge that Dr Hutchison, who, of course, was a practitioner in this area, recognises Dr Brown\u2019s expertise and value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe new chair is Sir John Anderson, the current chairman of Television New Zealand and, of course, one of New Zealand\u2019s pre-eminent business leaders, with a proven record in governance. Ken Douglas will remain as deputy chair to provide continuity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOf course, the Government at this point is appointing new board members in any case to all district health boards around the country, and therefore, of course, the fact is that appointing a new chair is by itself not necessarily a matter of particular note, but in the case of Wellington it obviously bears some relationship to other matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe first priority for the new board and the Crown monitor will include consulting with clinical staff on the creation of a forward plan for the district health board. As well as appointing the Crown monitor the discussion on providing deficit support to Capital and Coast District Health Board will continue. Discussions with the board will focus on deficit support in order to relieve some of the financial pressure currently experienced by the board. This does not mean that it has an open cheque book. It means that this district health board is expected to resolve the issues it has, and that the Government will be working with them to ensure that all solutions are sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIn closing, I think it is important to stress that the vast majority of Wellingtonians who rely on Capital and Coast District Health Board get a very high standard of service. The doctors, nurses, and other staff at the region\u2019s public health facilities are committed and hard-working. They deserve praise, not the ridicule that some members of this House have expressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002233b2b5545e91472ab49094a14b2fd394\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233b2b5545e91472ab49094a14b2fd394\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder whether the Minister of Health could clarify whether the Peter Douglas being appointed is the same Peter Douglas who is currently on the board. The Minister is standing in the House today and saying that a new board will be expected to deal with the problems facing Wellington Hospital when half of its members were on the old board. I do not think the people of Wellington will buy that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe culture change required at Wellington Hospital will be harder to achieve now that the Government has baulked at appointing a commissioner. What is needed at Wellington Hospital is a culture change, and that is no easy task considering the climate of mistrust that exists between the management, the board, and the doctors, nurses, and other front-line heath staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EGovernment briefing papers have revealed that the Labour Government has had Wellington Hospital under intensive management, or intensive monitoring, since May. I cannot see how the idea of a Crown monitor will mean much, as the Government has been actively monitoring Wellington Hospital for the last 6 months and all the while has been watching this crisis unfold at the Capital and Coast District Health Board. For half a year, while the Government has been intensively monitoring Wellington Hospital, public health services in our capital city have been allowed to suffer. I think Wellingtonians will trust Sir John Anderson and look to him for action, but we believe that a commissioner would have had a more immediate impact on turning this hospital round. This turn-round could have been achieved more effectively by a commissioner. Creating culture change will be very challenging from the chairman\u2019s seat, and even more challenging when Sir John is also trying to turn round Television New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ESir John is left with a lot of baggage from the old board. Not only were four people re-elected by the people of Wellington on false pretences, because they were part of a board that suppressed damning reports on the quality of that hospital, but also Sir John is left with a lot of baggage from that district health board. There are four members whom the people of Wellington re-elected, plus two more board members whom the Government is reappointing. Can we really expect Sir John to turn round Wellington Hospital when more than half of his board are the same failed people who, as we have seen, brought the Wellington health services to its knees? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe most important message that the Opposition can give the Government is that front-line personnel must be part of the solution. They have been treated as though they are the problem. That is ridiculous. We have detailed previously a number of proposals that will re-engage the clinical workforce in improving the quality and productivity of services at Wellington Hospital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt is simply bizarre that since the Government changed, Wellington Hospital has hired more managers and administrators than doctors. It has taken a crisis in maternity, drastic problems with community services, a damning audit report, and papers showing one serious mishap after another for this Government to do anything about the state of public health services in the capital city of New Zealand. This is a Government that has dithered and dithered over saving our capital city\u2019s health services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI am sure the people of Wellington will be keeping a very close eye on the performance of this board. I think people will be stunned that the Government expects a board made up of most of the people who were involved in causing the problem to be part of the solution. That is a job even a gentleman of the calibre of Sir John Anderson will struggle to meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00225061bd2997f2468b8a7cb02526812c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225061bd2997f2468b8a7cb02526812c56\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My contribution will be brief but hopefully to the point. New Zealand First acknowledges what the Government has done and is supportive of it. We also recognise that the medical staff\u2014the doctors and nurses, and all involved in that hospital and district health board\u2014do a first-class job and are first-rate people. We believe that something had to be done, and we believe that Sir John Anderson is the right person to head the new team\u2014so to speak\u2014with the help and assistance of Ken Douglas. We sincerely wish them well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022721caa3f6a1940589a62c982ec059010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022721caa3f6a1940589a62c982ec059010\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party welcomes the step the Government has taken to sort out the appalling mess at Wellington Hospital. Unlike the National Party, we think this step will have minimal interference in normal processes, yet maximum effect in turning things round, compared with completely overturning the board and starting again. We sincerely hope it will work and we express our support for all the medical staff who, at last, are to be consulted on the way forward for this hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u002265482bde938b416b98be21c45483eac2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265482bde938b416b98be21c45483eac2\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party supports the move the Government has made at this time. It is our firm belief that the board actually does have the confidence of the community at large, because its members have only just recently been elected. Having used the services at Wellington Hospital myself, as have members of my family, I commend the people who work at that hospital for the great service they provide. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002204bb2bd6570a493eaf40760eeb9b4d02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204bb2bd6570a493eaf40760eeb9b4d02\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the ACT party I say that we, too, felt that a commissioner should have been inserted into position\u2014an independent commissioner with the ability to think outside the square and turn this organisation round. Unfortunately, the board has a very familiar look to it. The Government has had 6 years to rectify the situation at Capital and Coast District Health Board. I wish the board well but I suspect we will see very little in the way of change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere is a difficulty with the district health board format. Boards are democratically elected but, unfortunately, democracy ends there. Boards are given the instruction that they are there to implement the Government\u2019s health policy. That will not change. Systemic failure, which has been rife, I am sad to say, at Capital and Coast District Health Board, results in medical errors being made. This Minister of Health, the Hon David Cunliffe, in his very short time, has managed to misinterpret, very deliberately and cynically, criticisms of himself and his health policies as an attack on the clinical staff at Wellington Hospital. That is quite wrong. There is no one in this House, I think, who does not believe that the doctors, nurses, and other health professionals working at Capital and Coast District Health Board are very committed, professional, and provide excellent skills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBut when systemic failure arises, it inevitably results in medical errors. That is exactly what we have seen. It was very distressing to see a report earlier this week about a razor gang\u2014and the proposed cutting of 50 doctors. I can liken that only to cutting muscle rather than fat in an organisation in crisis. We do not believe that this business of dealing with Capital and Coast District Health Board\u2019s woes has been done quickly or boldly enough. I hope things improve at Wellington Hospital, but, sadly, I fear that will not be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2b8922472974deb83d7fed1de2a4a6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2b8922472974deb83d7fed1de2a4a6e\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future supports what the Government has chosen to announce today. We certainly support the appointment of Sir John Anderson. We think he is a very fine choice to be looking at the very serious matters that face this district health board. We encourage the Government to continue to keep a very watchful eye on, and stay in close contact with, the Crown monitor as things progress. We would hate to think the Government has completely ruled out the option of appointing a commissioner in the future should the situation prove to be more serious than it looks even now. Having said that, it is not because we have any disregard for who has been appointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe also support the comments made by other members of this House regarding their commitment to supporting the very fine staff who work for this district health board. We want to make sure that where there are systemic problems for that district health board they are addressed as such, and that this House refrains from attacking people who are delivering a very fine service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0f7d07097704e48a6031b562ea55aa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0f7d07097704e48a6031b562ea55aa9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to one key point raised by both Tony Ryall and Heather Roy, which is whether a commissioner should have been appointed. Clearly, the Government considered that option. There is a major legal barrier to the appointment of a commissioner. Even though there is substantial continuity in the membership of the Capital and Coast District Health Board, as a legal entity in any practice, this is a new health board, not the old health board. A new health board started only this week. It would therefore be very difficult for the Government to justify under any legal challenge the appointment of a commissioner to replace the current board, before that new board had had a chance to show whether it was capable of turning round the situation at that board. Let us not pretend that litigation does not occur in those kinds of circumstances. In other words, the advice that I had very clearly as Attorney-General was that we would be exposed to a very serious risk that any such action could be challenged and overturned in court. That was not therefore thought to be the appropriate way to proceed in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOn the second point made by Mr Ryall, I fully agree with him that the front-line personnel need to be part of the solution. That is another reason why the Crown monitor who is being sent in is not a person from outside the hospital and medical profession but is in fact a highly experienced person within the hospital system. He has very high credibility and has participated in a range of activities that clearly well suit him to form that crucial bridge between the board and the medical staff and to ensure that proper consultation occurs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe Government has every hope that the appointment of a new chair and a Crown monitor will lead to a change in the effectiveness of the governance arrangements at this district health board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6bc3e88c52f4bc98f2ed2401d7ac720\u0022\u003EInjury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b571511f93b74f95819eccf419301b38\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000596\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5aedae9c2354df28e55bdc4b6e36c32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5aedae9c2354df28e55bdc4b6e36c32\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Overall, this bill makes a number of beneficial changes to the current accident compensation scheme, and the Green Party will be supporting it to go to the select committee. However, we believe that this bill should be improved in four key areas, and we will reconsider our support in the future depending on whether at least some of the issues we are concerned about are addressed positively in some way during or after the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe first of our concerns is in regard to the cover relating to mental injury. Although we welcome the proposal to extend cover to mental injury caused by a traumatic event experienced while at work, we think that this bill should go a lot further. The Green Party believes, in fact, that cover should be broadened out to include all mental injury covered by accident, work-related gradual process disease or infection, or treatment. This would effectively restore the position that existed under the Accident Compensation Act 1982, before National\u2019s so-called reforms to the scheme in the 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EGetting down to the detail of the bill, it seems to me particularly anomalous that cover will extend under this legislation, for example, to a person who suffers a mental injury as a result of seeing someone die in a car crash, while at the same time a health professional who suffers a similar mental injury as a consequence of witnessing a series of deaths and other trauma as a result of his or her work\u2014a paramedic, or someone like that\u2014will not get cover because his or her problems are caused by a series of events and are not a one-off experience. So at a minimum the Green Party would like to see the bill amended to correct this particular anomaly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe second area about which we have particular concerns relates to cover for work-related gradual process, disease, and infection. Although we are pleased with the provisions contained in clause 10 of the bill as far as they go, we believe that they fail to address the most serious inadequacy of the current legislation as highlighted by the Ministerial Advisory Panel on Work Related Gradual Process Disease or Infection, which reported back to the Government in March 2006. This issue is the difficulty faced by claimants in proving, where there is no clearly separate and antecedent physical injury, that conditions such as regional pain syndrome or multiple chemical sensitivity are personal injuries as defined in the principal Act, even when the causation test under section 30 is met. The bill should be amended so as to ensure that claimants who have conditions such as these but without a discrete antecedent physical injury, and who meet causation criteria, should be able to get cover for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection injury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe would also like to see cover extended to those who contract serious illnesses or impairment as a result of being the children or grandchildren of workers who have been exposed to toxic chemicals such as dioxins. So-called third-party cover should be made available to these people without any further mucking around. Although some of the issues I am discussing here are highly technical, as is the case with a lot of accident compensation law, I remind the House that behind the sometimes mind-bending detail of law and regulation are real people who are suffering daily because of the often unfair, and even at times cruel, way in which so much of our accident compensation system still operates, despite improvements made since 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe third area of particular interest to the Green Party in this bill is that of vocational rehabilitation, and we are pleased to see that the circumstances under which vocational rehabilitation can be provided are extended. However, the extensions all relate to people who are entitled to receive weekly compensation, or who would have been entitled to receive it but for the fact that they qualify for national superannuation. The original Act and the new bill completely ignore the needs of people who may have little chance of finding employment without vocational rehabilitation, but who are denied weekly compensation because they are non-earners or not potential earners as defined in the Act at the time of their personal injury. People in this situation often end up languishing on a sickness or invalids benefit for a considerable period of time, or on no benefit at all if they have a partner with significant earnings. If they do qualify for an invalids benefit, they may potentially be able to access the training incentive allowance through the Ministry of Social Development, but others will have no support for vocational rehabilitation whatsoever. Often such people end up in debt through a student or private loan just in order to have any prospect at all of getting back into the workforce. We would like to see the bill amended by providing for an obligation on the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) to provide vocational rehabilitation for claimants who cannot get weekly compensation but who are vocationally and medically assessed as having little chance of getting full-time work with an earning capacity similar to their earlier employment without such rehabilitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe final area of particular interest to us is that of vocational independence. We welcome the provision in this bill to require occupational assessors to take into account earnings before the claimant\u2019s incapacity occurred, and I hope that this should preclude ACC from forcing highly skilled people off weekly compensation and into inappropriate low-wage jobs. Our overarching policy in this area is that the vocational independence provisions of the Act should be repealed altogether. Losing one\u2019s job is still at times a consequence of injury, and it is not fair that someone should lose his or her compensation because even though that person is medically capable of some types of employment he or she has the skills to undertake, that person cannot find a job in those areas due to the state of the job market at the time. We believe that the vocational independence assessment should be abolished. Provisions already exist in the Act for the corporation to negotiate, or, if the claimant does not agree, to deem certain activities to be contained in an individual\u2019s rehabilitation plan. Job search requirements can be one such deemed or negotiated activity under current law, and people can be booted off compensation if they do not take reasonable steps to obtain a job. The extra step of vocational independence assessment is not necessary and is a very blunt instrument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAlthough availability of appropriate work may not be such a big issue at the moment in the current economic climate, this will not always be the case, just as it was not the case during much of our recent history. In the late 1990s and early 2000s I was aware of many claimants who were exited from weekly compensation, and who then spent months, if not years, unemployed because there were no jobs available for them for which they were either vocationally or medically suited. The loss of employment such people suffered was a result of personal injury, yet through no fault of their own they found themselves without a job, without compensation, and receiving either an unemployment, a sickness or invalids benefit, or no benefit at all. Some people are, of course, still in this situation to the present day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe would like to make a number of other improvements to this bill, but I will not take up the House\u2019s time with them now as I am sure we will have plenty of good submissions on these and related matters at the select committee. I look forward to the select committee process and to hearing what people who have a deep interest in the matters covered by this bill have to say. I hope that despite the unfortunate time of the year, affected individuals and organisations will find the time and energy to make submissions to the select committee. As I said earlier, this bill does make some progress towards improving our accident compensation system, but there is a long way to go before we are even close to meeting the Woodhouse principles. The Green Party is supporting this bill in going through its first reading because of the useful steps forward it takes, but we will reserve our position in later votes depending on whether we can make any progress on at least some of the matters I have talked about today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00226ed58733627a47c5bc7134803ac5e09e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ed58733627a47c5bc7134803ac5e09e\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker; t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. It is always a good thing to be able to come to this House and know that we are debating legislation that, if implemented well and with some changes, will make a difference in the quality of people\u2019s lives. The quality of life for M\u0101ori workers in relation to their experiences with injury prevention, rehabilitation, and compensation has not always been a topic that I can talk about with much joy. We know only too well that injury is the leading cause of death for M\u0101ori for the first three decades of life. M\u0101ori are overrepresented in injury statistics across all age groups, and in employment and sports. Most of these injuries are preventable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe know also that M\u0101ori aged 25 to 64, particularly men, are more likely to be injured at work than non-M\u0101ori. This reflects the types of occupations in which M\u0101ori men are overrepresented, such as manual and trade occupations, manufacturing, and construction. Occupational segregation operates to maintain M\u0101ori in more high-risk employment. High-risk occupations, which are those with high rates of new workplace injury claims, are agriculture, manufacturing, construction, and forestry. These come after hunting, fishing, and mining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIt is not just a matter of M\u0101ori having such dire experiences of injury statistics; it is also a matter of the fairly negative experience of having to go to the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) itself. Research from Dr Peter Jansen on Maori consumer use and experience of health and disability and ACC services reveals that M\u0101ori are currently not receiving entitlements to care, rehabilitation, and compensation at a level comparable to the proportion of M\u0101ori in the population. That is appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe issue is, in essence, that M\u0101ori have greater need but have less access to treatment. I know this because many people who have come to my office\u2014M\u0101ori people\u2014have come for help because the staff at ACC have tended to treat them as malingerers who do not want to work and who do not have any rights to accident compensation. It is obvious from these stories and these statistics that our people are overrepresented in high-risk industries and under-represented in claims and entitlements from ACC. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EGiven this history, we have given priority to this Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) in order to review the amendments proposed for work-related injuries, the changes in weekly compensation eligibility and entitlement, and the changes in entitlement and processes around vocational rehabilitation and independence. We are particularly pleased that the bill improves access to compensation for a number of currently disenfranchised groups\u2014seasonal and casual workers, and those in non-standard work; those mentally injured by trauma; those between work; and young people who are injured. The M\u0101ori Party has previously voted against bills that were not inclusive of the rights of these groups, so it is obviously pleasing to see that these groups have been included from the outset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are especially interested in the initiatives to provide cover for mental injury arising from traumatic events in the workplace. Our reading of the bill suggests that cover is extended to those suffering mental injury, as opposed to temporary distress, by exposure to a sudden traumatic event in the course of employment situations\u2014for example, witnessing a death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI know the impact of such events from personal experience. When I was working in a Government agency a member of the public held a staff member up against a wall and clutched the staff member\u2019s throat in response to behaviour that the member of the public had clearly taken offence at. I imagine that the trauma for that worker was huge. I also remember only too vividly that at a hui I attended when I was working in R\u016B\u0101toki one of the speakers attending the hui died. As I moved to give him CPR I realised that it was too late. The shock of that sudden death stayed with me for a very, very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESometimes when we talk about people having temporary distress it is unfair not to note that that distress can stay with them for a long time. When I read in this bill that this cover will help ensure there is appropriate treatment to facilitate rehabilitation I am absolutely convinced that experiences such as those I have mentioned are indeed encompassed within the scope of personal injury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI will be interested to learn at the select committee whether any of the submitters bring to our attention the possibility of racism being added as a work-related gradual process of injury, because that was identified in Dr Peter Jansen\u2019s report, as well. Clearly, racism has long-term effects, including that of post-traumatic stress disorder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere are some very good features in this bill, and I believe that weekly compensation for seasonal and casual workers will be calculated more fairly as a result of amendments included in the bill. For example, compensation for meatworkers will be calculated more in line with their working periods rather than their non-working periods, which I think is fair. Instead of having 3 months\u2019 work averaged out over 52 weeks, it will be averaged out over 12 weeks, which in effect means that the 80 percent compensation will be of their real income. This change is intended to improve access for seasonal casual workers and others in non-standard work, and it is something we would support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe would like to see more focus on occupational safety and health included in this bill. A 2004 National Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Committee report on occupational injury and disease in New Zealand highlights the lack of information on M\u0101ori work-related mortality and morbidity. Despite the fact that awareness and monitoring of occupational safety and health issues for M\u0101ori are sorely lacking, we know that particular issues flow from the facts of their employment. M\u0101ori and Pacific workers are more likely to be shift workers and, as a consequence, are more likely to be vulnerable to the range of work-related disorders associated with shift work\u2014sleep disturbance, peptic ulcers, ischaemic heart disease, obesity, hypertension, diabetes, mellitus, female reproductive disorders, and disorders of the immune system, as well as psychological and relationship disorders. A recent publication, the New Zealand Blood Donors\u2019 Health Study, reported that when occupation, lifestyle factors, and excessive sleepiness are controlled for, there is an almost twofold increase in the risk of work-related injury for shift workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe final issue I bring to the debate is the precarious nature of non - full-time, non-permanent employment, where M\u0101ori are also highly represented. Precarious employment is employment that is low quality and puts workers at risk of injury, illness, and/or poverty. Precarious workers are more exposed to physical work hazards and stress from insecurity. We will be looking carefully at the select committee report to see that the specific issues for shift workers and workers in precarious employment are fully canvassed in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAll workers have a right to expect that the workplaces they go to, the work they do, and the people they work with and for are not compromising their health and well-being. They also have a right to benefit from the social contract represented in the accident compensation scheme, which began some 40 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this bill in order to enable a full discussion to take place and to allow all of us in this House to benefit from the robust discussion about the impact of injuries upon the community. We will reserve our final decision until we are really well informed by the submissions made to the select committee. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7aba68b499f460199854e901ae7bed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7aba68b499f460199854e901ae7bed7\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I speak on behalf of United Future on this first reading of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2). This is a bill that seems to widen access to accident compensation entitlements. It is a refinement of the accident compensation system, as it proposes amendments to cover for work-related injuries, changes in weekly compensation eligibility and entitlement, and changes to entitlement and processes around vocational rehabilitation and independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThere are some changes in the bill to tests for causation for work-related injury where there is a gradual process\u2014when an injury is gradually experienced by somebody\u2014and that is a good thing. It includes eligibility to lump-sum payments to be extended to claimants for work-related gradual process, disease, and infection, and to those who suffer personal injury following the date the bill comes into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Tariana Turia, talked about the new cover for mental injury that is caused by exposure to a sudden traumatic event in the course of employment. I think that this is an extremely good thing to be included in the bill. We know of some very highly publicised cases where people have witnessed murders, train drivers have had people walk out on to the line and be killed, or very traumatic events like that. The cover for those people to get some counselling and help with that is hugely important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe access to cover for people in between jobs is widened from 14 to 28 days, as long as future employment has been organised. This provision does not apply to people who are out of work and who have left work, but if people are in between jobs for a period of up to 28 days, then they can still receive cover. I think it is a good thing. The abatement conditions for those who are partially incapacitated and who return to part-time work are improved, and I have had lots of constituent cases around that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI am particularly pleased to see that the bill is making some improvements to leave entitlements, so that they will not be considered earnings for weekly abatement purposes. I had a case only about a week ago from a constituent who fell exactly into this category. He was in between jobs. There was an accident during that period of time that was work-related, because he was finishing up, but he had handed in his notice on a job and was planning to go into new employment after taking a holiday. He was very full of angst over the fact that the holiday pay that he was entitled to\u2014that had been caught up on and paid out from the first job\u2014was calculated, and it affected his accident compensation payments at that time. It looks like we will get some real movement on that, and I am sure that the gentleman I spoke to in Whakat\u0101ne only a week or so ago will be very pleased to hear of that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the negatives of this bill is that in widening access to accident compensation entitlements, we also widen the very real gap that exists right now between trauma-based disability and medical or disease-based disability. I accept that the issue I am bringing before the House does not fall within the scope of this bill. I believe that there is a very real challenge for the Government to address this matter in the future, and I would also go as far as to say that failure to address this blatant inequity is an extension of gross unfairness that borders on cruelty. I have been spending quite a bit of time recently talking to those within the disability sector, and the stories are tragic. We can meet people whose set of limitations is identical to the set of limitations of somebody living right next door, where their impairment has been caused by an illness and the people next door have had a car accident. The difference between the services provided in each case is enormous and it is discouraging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI believe that some real work needs to be done by this Government\u2014and, in fact, by every party in this Parliament that is seeking re-election\u2014to look at how we can better help those who suffer debilitating conditions but who have not suffered them as a result of a traumatic accident. There is a very, very big gap in the provision of health and disability services in this country right now. Issues around compensation and the loss of income remain unaddressed, and I think we do the public whom we serve a great disservice when we fail to find a way forward on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future is happy to support this bill. We will be very interested to see what submitters to the select committee say. We do not have membership on the select committee that will be looking at this bill, so we will be relying very heavily on the report back from the select committee and the recommendations it makes, but we are very happy to support this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u002260d92fa769094d3287cfec68e7d6328f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d92fa769094d3287cfec68e7d6328f\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Our world-leading accident compensation scheme was a social contract to provide a universal, no-fault accident compensation scheme in this country, for which New Zealanders gave up the litigious path of the right to sue, and it has very much stood the test of time. I compliment the new Minister for ACC, Maryan Street, on bringing this Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) to the House. It is a far-sighted and significant bill that will further deliver for New Zealanders, and I am proud of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EIn contrast to the negative speeches given by the National members, who want, of course, to return to a privatised accident compensation scheme\u2014a National experience that did not work for employers, employees, or for anyone except the insurers\u2014the Labour Government is committed to having a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme and to making this scheme more responsive to claimants\u2019 needs, because at the end of the day, a technical bill, which this one is, is still delivering to the human stories of the people affected by the legislation we create. I am very sad that National members can come to this House and witter on about their opposition to this bill, pretending that this bill is making accident compensation more complicated, when, in fact, they know that this bill is about having an even fairer and more sustainable accident compensation scheme. It is about improving outcomes for injured workers; providing fairer and more straightforward weekly compensation for seasonal and casual employees, whether they might be meatworkers, farm workers, tourism workers, care workers, or retail workers; making important changes to the cover provisions for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection; providing cover for clinically significant mental injuries, like the train driver whose train hits someone on the tracks or the bank clerk who witnesses a colleague being killed in a bank robbery; and providing the Accident Compensation Corporation with the discretion to extend the current 3-year limit on vocational rehabilitation when claimants need longer periods of rehabilitation. These are all exceptionally important provisions in this bill. None of these provisions, or the people who will have their lives improved by them, deserve the nonsense of petty opposition that we have heard from the National speakers today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EI will concentrate particularly on some of the positive aspects of this bill for the benefit of workers whom I have had through my office door and whom I dealt with in my previous life as a union organiser. The first aspect is changes in the area of weekly compensation. The bill provides fairer and more straightforward weekly compensation for seasonal and casual employees, and that is a very good thing. There is no doubt that the world of work has changed dramatically, and that more people are working part time, are moving in and out of employment, are self-employed, or are in casual or seasonal work. Updating the weekly compensation framework to improve access to weekly compensation, changing the way that weekly compensation is calculated for casual and seasonal workers, making the assessment for claimants more reasonable and easier to understand, allowing easier access to minimum weekly compensation and extending the period of eligibility so that claimants can access weekly compensation if they are injured within 28 days of stopping work, and also allowing self-employed people and shareholder employees who are injured during a transition to employee status to be eligible, are all positive parts of the bill. So is improving abatement conditions for partially incapacitated workers when they return to work part time. I would ask why the National Party is opposing those very good proposals that increase fairness. Well, who knows? I wonder whether the National members themselves know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe other positive aspect I want to talk about is the changes the bill introduces to the cover provisions for work-related gradual process, disease, and infection, to ensure that people harmed by their work receive greater access to cover and can have more clarity as to whether cover is available. If people have been clearly harmed in the course of their employment, then they should be covered by the accident compensation scheme, regardless of whether the injury is the result of accident or occupational illness. The bill makes that philosophy clear. The three-part test set out in section 30(2) of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act is revised in the bill in order to clarify the threshold of allowable non-work exposure, and that is a good thing, as is some provision for extending eligibility for lump-sum compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003ENo cover is currently available under the accident compensation scheme for mental injury caused by exposure to a sudden traumatic event in the course of employment. The bill introduces such cover where the traumatic event is significant and is seen, heard, or experienced by a person directly. Providing that cover will help to ensure appropriate treatment and rehabilitation and an early and sustainable return to work. Again, those are all good provisions of this very good bill that I am surprised to hear the National Party opposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to point out how pleased I am to see that the bill introduces a requirement for occupational assessors to consider a person\u2019s pre-injury earnings when identifying suitable future work for claimants. Having worked with those faced with the identification of unsuitable jobs in the past, I think this provision is a very important one for a lot of reasons, including the full utilisation of retained skills and professional abilities by a great number of those claimants, and also because of the injured person\u2019s own self-esteem and the attention we need to pay to that as part of any rehabilitation and return to work process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EIn summing up, I say that this is a very good and well-thought-out bill. It is a technical bill, and it is also, as I said at the start, a bill that addresses real human stories that come through the doors of our electorate offices. These are real human stories that my former colleagues as union organisers still experience very often. The bill talks about delivering real improvements for the people involved, the people whom we must never forget in a technical bill. I am looking forward to the submissions on this bill to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, of which I am a member, and I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4c0f8aa47114e25b2015974fada0208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4c0f8aa47114e25b2015974fada0208\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I saw the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) come across my desk. I grabbed it, read the general policy statement, and saw that the bill would \u201Ccontinue the Government\u2019s commitment to a fair and sustainable ACC scheme for reducing the incidence and impact of personal injury, by proposing amendments to cover for work-related injuries,\u201D. When I read that I thought \u201CGreat!\u201D. Of course, if I had been like Peter Brown, as he explained to us last night, I probably would have put the bill down and thought it would do everything that I hoped it would do, and everything that the general policy statement said it would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI brought an issue to this House in September of this year about work-related injuries. I assumed and hoped that when legislation came before the House that had a commitment to a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme, and that was proposing amendments to cover for work-related injuries, I would see some changes to the law around the case that I had brought to the attention of the Minister for ACC. But, alas, when I read the legislation I found that that had not happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI want to talk today, at the first reading of this legislation, about what is not in it, and what should be in it if we are indeed to have a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme, and if we genuinely want to reduce the incidence and impact of personal injury. You see, if one looks at the definition of a work-related injury in section 28(1) of the principal Act, one finds that we are talking about a personal injury that the insured suffers \u201C(a) while he or she is at any place for the purposes of his or her employment, including, for example, a place that itself moves or a place to or through which the claimant moves;\u201D. So we are defining that workplace as somewhere where the insured person is actually working, whether it is a movable place or a place that a person moves through while doing his or her work. Section 28(1)(b) also states: \u201Cwhile he or she is having a break from work for a meal or rest or refreshment at his or her place of employment;\u201D. I read those provisions carefully, because they are really pertinent to the case that I brought before this House in September and brought to the Minister\u2019s attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWhat is the problem? The problem occurred in 2003, when an employee of AFFCO\u2014a meatworks company\u2014left the plant on a break, walked outside the secured compound of the plant, and went to the car-park with another person. That employee went into that car-park on his break, allegedly, to smoke a joint. It had nothing to do with work, he was on a work break, and he was actually committing an illegal act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230020e856b06451db9aaa06238bba9a0\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Allegedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f9168a319704f0c9c2b4773a32a93a0\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I said \u201Callegedly\u201D. While they were sitting in a car a car drove up. An occupant saw the worker and his mate sitting in the car, recognised the worker\u2019s mate, and, as part of ongoing gang warfare in the area, put a shotgun through the window, shot at the gang member, who was not the person whom this accident compensation claim was about, and also badly injured that worker. It had nothing to do with a workplace injury, it had nothing to do with the company, and it did not happen in the place of work\u2014not even within the secured compound of a workplace. As a result of that, AFFCO is being charged $1 million for the ongoing care of this injured worker, despite the fact that the company has talked incessantly with the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) about it not being a workplace injury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EOne has to look at the definition of workplace. I was hoping that this legislation would start looking at the definition of workplace. The car-park where this accident took place was outside the secured area. In fact, I am informed that Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry regulations require that a car-park that is used as a public car-park cannot form part of a secure workplace. So the poor old employer, which has a car-park outside the secured premises that is a public car-park for a public park next door, on one side, and a butchery shop on the other, is now being told that that car-park forms part of the workplace. So members should forget all the stuff around the alleged happenings and what the worker was allegedly doing; the fact that this car-park was not part of the workplace is irrelevant to ACC. That to me seemed wrong. And I would have thought, from the reaction to this story when I raised it in this House, that the Minister accepted that there was some opportunity to have a discussion about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EAt the time that this incident happened nobody saw it as a workplace accident. It was reported in the local papers and there was a great deal of publicity about it. The police treated it as a gangland shooting. It was written up in all the local papers as part of an ongoing gangland shooting problem. It had nothing to do with AFFCO and the meatworks, other than the fact that it had taken place in the car-park outside the AFFCO meatworks. The Occupational Safety and Health Service did not consider that it was a workplace accident, either; it considered that it was a police matter. The only person who, in addition to ACC, has continued to say it was a workplace accident, despite AFFCO notifying ACC that it did not consider it to be a workplace accident, is the Minister herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI heard one of the members on the other side going on about liability and ACC accepting that. That is not true. An original letter was sent to the claimant, the injured person, but that was withdrawn when the full information became available. ACC has been well aware of that. I tabled it in the House; it is a fact. But I just want to make the point that I am also informed that the issue of AFFCO\u2019s liability is not determined by the letter ACC sent to the injured person, but by the accreditation agreement AFFCO has with ACC. It does not affect at all ACC\u2019s ability to exercise its statutory discretion to accept responsibility for the accident. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI want to raise one last point. When I raised this issue with the Minister in the House and asked her whether she would commit to a mediation process, she agreed. In fact, she issued a media statement on 20 September welcoming that mediation and negotiation. Well, of course, it did not happen. It was just a way to get the issue off the front page. The parties did meet at the car-park, and that quite clearly showed ACC that the car-park was a public car-park outside the secured area. They did meet, but it turned out that the ACC officials who turned up at the so-called mediation meeting had no power to act. They had no intention to act, because they had not been given an alternative amount of negotiating dollars with which to act. So there was no mediation and there was no negotiation, and all the Minister did was get the issue off the front page of the papers by agreeing to look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI repeat: I eagerly looked at this legislation, fully expecting that, having been made fully aware of the circumstances around this particular case, the Minister would have taken some opportunity to address that obvious iniquity in this legislation. It is not there, Madam Assistant Speaker, and the National Party is not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00223ecdd9ef5afc438f8a556556b601d6a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ecdd9ef5afc438f8a556556b601d6a8\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to be able to rise and speak in the first reading of the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2). I congratulate my colleague Maryan Street. As a new Minister it must be very exciting for her to bring forward such an important bill that will make a real difference to people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ENegativity has been displayed by members opposite today. However, this legislation is something positive that will actually affect some of the most vulnerable people in our society\u2014those who have been injured at work, and those who are in seasonal and precarious employment. This bill will do a lot to make things right for this particular group of people in our society. It is about the Labour-led Government\u2019s commitment to a fair and sustainable accident compensation scheme. It is the envy of the international community. I hope the National Party take that into consideration instead of condemning this very important step forward for our well-valued accident compensation scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe last speaker, Anne Tolley, spoke about a situation local to her, and I wish to bring to the House\u2019s attention a situation in my local area\u2014in Hamilton East\u2014that will be resolved by this bill. I am disappointed, because I had hoped that the member of Parliament for Hamilton East, who is on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee that will hear this bill, would be present in the House this afternoon to take a call. It seems that he will not be taking a call, and that is disappointing, because a man in Hamilton East, Mr Bruce Gardiner, has communicated frequently with members of Parliament over his particular situation, and it will be addressed by this bill. His pleas have been heard\u2014yes, by this Labour-led Government. Unfortunately, his member of Parliament, David Bennett, will be voting against this bill\u2014a bill that will actually address the issues of one of his constituents. I am sure Mr Gardiner wants his story to be known, because he has had a lot of publicity about what happened to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThis bill will make some significant changes to the cover provided by accident compensation for work-related injuries. It will extend this cover to include mental injuries caused by a single traumatic event, and it will make changes to the cover provisions for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection. The cover that includes mental injuries caused by a single traumatic event will be of particular importance to Mr Bruce Gardiner of Hamilton East.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EHis story is that one day, in the course of his duties as a milk tanker driver for Fonterra, he was driving along a country road\u2014well within the speed limit and well within the law\u2014doing the job that he had done many times before, he noticed a person crouching in a sprint position on the side of the road. He did not have time to react before the person ran out in front of his milk tanker. Unfortunately, Mr Gardiner could do nothing to avoid that accident and that death from occurring. That person had probably got to a point in his life where he had decided to end it. Mr Bruce Gardiner, through his work, actually became an unwitting player in that scenario, and the trauma and mental injury that that caused him was not covered by accident compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EMr Gardiner has been a very strong advocate for the law being changed in this regard. As I said, he is from Hamilton East. It has been a big call for Mr Gardiner to talk about the personal stress that this moment in his life caused him. His suffering meant that he was unable to continue in his duties as a milk tanker driver for Fonterra, and he continues to suffer to this very day because of that very traumatic event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI will be very pleased to campaign as Labour\u2019s candidate in Hamilton East at the next election, and to be able to inform Mr Gardiner, his family, his friends, and his entire community that the Labour-led Government has heard his pleas. It is the Labour-led Government that cares about these issues, and this bill\u2014having its first reading today\u2014will address those issues in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe bill provides cover for clinically significant mental injuries, rather than for temporary distress that constitutes a normal reaction to trauma. The bill does not introduce cover for mental injury caused by non-physical stress. It introduces changes to the cover provisions for work-related gradual process, disease, or infection, to ensure that people harmed by their work receive greater access to cover and more clarity about whether cover is available and how it is determined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides fairer and more straightforward weekly compensation for seasonal and casual employees, by improving access to weekly compensation for people who are injured while temporarily between jobs. Many New Zealanders will be very pleased to hear that Parliament is considering this issue, because a great many New Zealanders are involved in temporary work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides the Accident Compensation Corporation with the discretion to extend the current 3-year limit on vocational rehabilitation, where appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI have listened very carefully to the debate, because this issue will be a litmus-test issue for New Zealanders come the next election. I have listened very carefully in the hope that the National Party speakers on this bill will throw some light on what their policy is in regard to this issue. Unfortunately, it was very difficult to work out. Apart from hearing their negativity and their opposition to our world-class accident compensation system, it was very difficult to work out where National may go on this. However, although they may not have let that slip in the course of this debate, they certainly have made public statements that give us some clues about where National would go on the issue of accident compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EJohn Key said: \u201CI want to confirm today that National\u2019s policy is to re-establish a competitive market to provide accident insurance.\u201D Back to the good old market model, the failed model of the 1990s! The National Party has not learnt a thing. Gerry Brownlee says that during the last, all too brief, period of private sector involvement in accident compensation, premiums fell dramatically, and accident statistics fell as employers experienced the direct financial benefit of keeping workplaces safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWell, what we know is that privatisation of accident compensation did not mean a better service, and it did not work for employers or employees. Since Labour renationalised accident compensation, the average self-employed levy has come down by 6 percent, the earners rate has reduced by 7 percent, and the average employer\u2019s levy has dropped by\u2014and wait for this figure\u2014a massive 43 percent. That has happened under our world-class system of accident compensation, which is the envy of the international community. Labour stands firm and very proud on its record in this area. It is an area that is close to my heart. Before my election to Parliament I trained health and safety reps in the workplace, and I know of many, many other stories of trauma, apart from Mr Bruce Gardiner\u2019s. I know what that trauma means for people\u2019s lives\u2014not only for the people injured but for the people around them, for their workmates, and, yes, for the profits and productivity of their workplace, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIn closing, I say that although there are many wonderful challenges in my new role as the junior Government whip, one of the downsides is that I am no longer a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which will consider this bill. However, I give my best wishes to that select committee. I know that it will be well led and that the submissions on this bill will be well received. I wish the committee luck in its deliberations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223069fe7e74d2419b97d687881b6efe08\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdaaa98e18a3448db0949afe8dbf72bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdaaa98e18a3448db0949afe8dbf72bb\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Deputy Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for ACC: I move, That the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill (No 2) be referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and that the committee report the bill by 12 May 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228809f177ca1348268bc04b24557d2692\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cfc04c4637f4a589f5c101db12369cf\u0022\u003EPoint of Order\u2014Mauao Historic Reserves Vesting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00225248e1242e6c4f64ba6f93f20c7c40f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225248e1242e6c4f64ba6f93f20c7c40f4\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to correct an error in our voting on the previous bill, the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. I believe that our votes were given against the bill, and we wish them to be recorded in favour of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb366c4a93ce4ab5820eeae9b70dd4ca\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e14c9738ec4ed5b831dd6664548138\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking leave to change the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b590ee4f3b245b082d814d55e95d687\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave to have the vote recorded in the way the member has indicated. Is there any objection? There is not. That will be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002272ea5dc9aae2460e8fb490895edf9a60\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f1115ac2ecb42a6aa3192b8c12f801e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00223606c30c7722496da5f34c7a50b989e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223606c30c7722496da5f34c7a50b989e3\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, that the committee report back to the House on or before 27 March 2008, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening of a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192 and 195(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThis bill brings together amendments to a variety of legislation related to M\u0101ori affairs, including the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board Act 1988, the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955, the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, and Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. On the whole the changes are in the nature of housekeeping. They update legislative provisions currently out of date, or improve existing provisions. None the less, they are important to the groups affected by these provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EFirstly, the bill will amend the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board Act 1988 and the Maori Trust Boards Regulations 1985 to provide for a seventh regional management committee to represent Maniapoto marae from the K\u0101whia Harbour region. Until this occurs, a new regional management committee cannot officially represent its constituent marae on the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board, vote on trust board matters, or receive operational funding. By bringing about the formal recognition of the new regional management committee in legislation, the bill ensures that K\u0101whia marae will be able to fully participate in the decision making of their iwi governance entity. The Maniapoto Maori Trust Board has also requested that the Act be updated to record the new name of the Maniapoto council of elders. Accordingly the bill replaces references to the council\u2019s previous name, Te Mauri o Maniapoto, with its new name, Te Kaum\u0101tua Kaunihera o Maniapoto, throughout the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill will also align the minimum voting ages under the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955 and the Maori Fisheries Act 2004. Some M\u0101ori trust boards also act as trustees of their iwis\u2019 fisheries settlement entity. This means, in practice, that when iwi members vote for members of their trust board, they are also voting for the trustees of their fisheries settlement entity. There is confusion, however, over who is eligible to vote in these elections. Under the Maori Trust Boards Act, iwi members must be 20 years or over to vote, whereas under the M\u0101ori Fisheries Act 2004, 18 and 19-year-olds can also vote. This inconsistency in minimum voting ages causes statutory compliance issues for trust boards. If trust boards let only beneficiaries aged 20 years or over vote, they will comply with the Maori Trust Boards Act but be in breach of the Maori Fisheries Act. Equally, if trust boards let 18 and 19-year-olds vote, they will comply with the Maori Fisheries Act but be in breach of the Maori Trust Boards Act. To remove this confusion, the bill will change the minimum voting age under the Maori Trust Boards Act to 18 years. This will bring the Act into line with not only the Maori Fisheries Act but also society\u2019s common understanding of the age of maturity and the voting age for general and other elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill will also remedy any irregularities in voting that may have occurred due to the inconsistency in minimum voting ages. Some trust boards may have opted to comply with the Maori Fisheries Act and allowed 18 and 19-year-olds to vote. The bill will validate instances where this may have occurred by providing that the election of trust board members prior to enactment of this bill will not be invalid on the basis of under-age voting. This validation will remedy any adverse effects of the statutory inconsistency, and provide certainty for trust boards and beneficiaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill will also execute a key condition of the agreement between the Crown and the Tuwharetoa Maori Trust Board relating to Lake Taup\u014D. In 2007 the Crown and the Tuwharetoa Maori Trust Board came to a final settlement in relation to the trust board\u2019s property rights in Lake Taup\u014D. Under the agreement, the trust board will receive a lump-sum payment and a new annual payment from the Crown. The bill will amend the Maori Trust Boards Act to provide for the new annual payment so that the trust board will begin to receive a key part of its compensation package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill will also provide for an increase in the membership of the Waitangi Tribunal, from 16 to 20 members. The Government is committed to settling all historical Treaty claims by 2020. An important part of reaching this goal will be the ability of the tribunal to inquire into, and report on, the historical Treaty claims it receives. The tribunal is committed to completing this process by 2015, but has identified that to do so will place further pressure on its already busy membership. The bill addresses this issue by providing the tribunal with four extra members. It is hoped that this increased support will assist the tribunal to achieve its goal of inquiring into, and reporting on, historical treaty claims by 2015\u2014contributing to the Government\u2019s goal of settling all historical Treaty claims by 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes technical drafting changes to section 6 of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. Section 6 is a key provision of the Act, as it sets out the rights of M\u0101ori to make claims against the Crown in respect of alleged breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi and the tribunal\u2019s jurisdiction to consider them. Since the fisheries settlement in 1992, section 6 has been amended every time a settlement is achieved, to specify the effect of each settlement on the tribunal\u2019s jurisdiction. This drafting practice has led to 26 subsections being added to section 6, overshadowing its key provisions. Without the proposed amendment, more subsections would be added as future settlements are achieved. The bill will move these subsections to a new schedule to the Act and add a single provision to section 6, stating that the jurisdiction of the tribunal is subject to the Treaty settlement legislation listed in the new schedule. Finally, the bill tidies up a number of minor drafting errors in some of the other Acts and updates information as required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I thank the many people who participated in the consultation process for these provisions. Although these amendments may be technical in nature, they will create certainty for a number of M\u0101ori groups by ensuring that the legal frameworks in which they operate are up to date and reflect current situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b89c8a12ad404fe6b948d6b6fd36e6fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b89c8a12ad404fe6b948d6b6fd36e6fa\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the first reading of the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2), which the Minister moved in the House this afternoon. As the Minister quite rightly said, omnibus legislation deals with matters that are largely technical in nature. He has outlined proposals to amend various Acts. The amendments to the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board Act, the Maori Trust Boards Act, the Treaty of Waitangi Act, and Te Ture Whenua Maori Act are largely technical in nature. They are aimed at increasing administrative efficiency and at tidying up matters of a technical nature that require tidying up. In that sense, the changes in this bill are appropriate. They make sense, and National supports them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThat is why, though, we were quite shocked to find, when the Minister first briefed us on this bill, that he had included major changes to the Maori Trustee Act 1953 in it. We thought the Minister had tried to sneak major changes\u2014after so-called consultation, but not necessarily consultation with the right people\u2014into a bill that should largely meet with the agreement of the Opposition. Those changes are contentious in nature. In fact, just recently I have had inquiries about the changes he proposes to make to the Maori Trustee Act in the M\u0101ori Trustee and M\u0101ori Development Amendment Bill, which I notice is on the Order Paper but has been shifted quite a long way down it\u2014and that is where it should be. The Minister consulted with us National members, and he had included amendments to the Maori Trustee Act in the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) that we said we did not accept were actually appropriate, because they were contentious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the Rt Hon Winston Peters is in the House this afternoon, because he will of course recall the contentious nature of the Maori Trustee Act. When he was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs under the National Government in 1990, he actually commissioned an inquiry into, and a report on, the Maori Trustee Act. That report was done by the solicitors Richard Charters and Annette Sykes, and, if I recall matters correctly, they came up with some rather horrendous findings that suggested the M\u0101ori Trustee may be in debt to beneficiaries to the tune of millions of dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Minister should really listen to this, because he should actually take the M\u0101ori Trustee and M\u0101ori Development Amendment Bill off the Order Paper. It is inappropriate and it is contentious, and he has not consulted the right people. The assets of that trust do not belong to all M\u0101ori. The owners of those trustee assets can be identified, albeit a lot of them have passed on. But the descendants of those people can be identified, and the bulk of those assets belong in the Waiariki and Aotea district M\u0101ori Land Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I say, the Minister took that legislation, those amendments, out of this bill at our request. They are gone for the moment. So we accept that this bill before us is largely technical and we support it. We support the bill before us now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Minister has outlined the reasons for the changes included in the bill. I will comment on only a couple of them. The technical nature of the bill is, I think, very well demonstrated by the change to the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955 that specifies a minimum voting age of 18 for M\u0101ori trust board elections, as the Minister has explained. There is a difference right now between the minimum voting age for M\u0101ori trust boards and the minimum voting age for the mandated iwi organisations under the Maori Fisheries Act\u2014one is 20 years and the other is 18 years, and it makes sense to align them. That will be done, and of course it should be done, because the difference results in extra compliance costs, which the various boards should not have to meet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOne of the other changes reflects changes to the annual payment to be paid by the Crown to the Tuwharetoa Maori Trust Board. That brings the Act into line with a recent agreement between the Crown and the Tuwharetoa Maori Trust Board. Again, that is necessary to give effect to recent agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI suppose the one area of this legislation that in a way could be contentious, but is probably not in effect contentious, concerns the changes that are proposed to amend the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975 to increase the statutory cap on the membership of the Waitangi Tribunal from 16 to 20 and to restructure section 6 of the Act. The first of those changes is probably the more substantial change. The tribunal has been operating with that membership since 1987, I think. There were originally three members on the tribunal, but that was extended to seven. When I was a member of the tribunal\u2014and very proud to be so\u2014there were seven members. In around 1987 the Government of the day took the starting point for claims to be heard back to 1840, and the membership was increased to 16. Given that last year this Parliament set a closing date of next year\u20142008\u2014for the submission of claims to the Waitangi Tribunal, and given that this Government is endeavouring to complete all settlements by the year 2020, in National\u2019s view it makes sense to increase the membership in the way that is proposed in this bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI suggest that increasing the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s membership is one thing, but I trust that the Government will also boost the funding of the Waitangi Tribunal to enable it to take advantage of that increase in membership. Given the Government\u2019s record over the last 8 years of not properly funding the tribunal, yet seeking for it to get going in its work, there is no point in having additional members without having the financial resources needed to make sure that all 20 members are sitting regularly and can, in fact, sit like a normal court. That is one of the things National would give consideration to. This measure will only make sense, and we will only get through the settlement of claims in a timely and durable way, if the membership of the tribunal is given proper backing and support to enable it to sit regularly in order to clear the mountain of claims that still lie before it. I hope we do not have\u2014as we do now\u2014members not always being fully occupied: some members waiting to be appointed to a tribunal, and some members not sitting regularly at all. That does not make sense when the tribunal is under a time limit of sorts. The Minister makes no mention at all that he sees the need to increase the funding of the tribunal. So, as I say, I hope this will not be a Clayton\u2019s increase, where we get more members but they sit around not hearing claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIn reality the tribunal has been poorly served under this administration. It has had to cancel hearing dates that it had scheduled\u2014sometimes those scheduled for the beginning of the year get moved towards the end of the year. Urgent inquiries have necessitated changes to the tribunal\u2019s timetable. We do not want to have any of that. As I say, we are very supportive of the increase in membership, but we want to see the Minister committed to ensuring that financial resources follow that membership increase. I know that would be hard for that Minister, though actually this is not the Minister that the money comes through; it is a justice one. Who would that be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022babe2fb3508e4ca4a3229dc6b6746a8b\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Barker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ff2729aee64c7ebfa099f415a3fd58\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: It is Rick Barker, the Minister for Courts. He is going to get the money needed to support the tribunal\u2019s new membership. So a good job for Parekura Horomia in the new year is to get on to Rick Barker, chase him around, make sure that he has put in a Budget bid for the next year, and make sure that the tribunal members actually get to work, sit on claims, start to clear the logjam of claims, and get these settlements out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOne thing is absolutely certain: although some claimants are happy to move to direct negotiations, other groups of claimants want to have their day in court. National recognises that. When we get into power next year, we will make sure that the tribunal can meet deadlines and can move to get the settlement process under way in a much more robust matter than is currently the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5642e2670d6430b8fdbc83b34220533\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bfc2b0965df44e18688947070813f76\u0022\u003EPoint of Order\u2014Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00223b1275c2576045998f284a4352a7ff35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b1275c2576045998f284a4352a7ff35\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to talk about a matter that occurred earlier on this afternoon to do with the National Party\u2019s vote on the Mauao Historic Reserve Vesting Bill. Hansard and the television footage will show that no party vote was called; everyone in the House was in favour of that, and what the National Party opposed was to do with the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee meeting outside Standing Orders on the sitting days, because the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is not the busiest one in Parliament. I want to make the point that the error occurred as a result of human error and the Clerk is aware of that. I want to put that on record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1433b56ea244cb6be7b15804b09647d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that. It is certainly acknowledged in the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b335fb7f9d34d1f9b436f584bac4f7b\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222633e29a38504a4b90bfda739f9a67a1\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000699\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u00229c6aa427df964fe785d8171092946a9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c6aa427df964fe785d8171092946a9f\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take this opportunity to stand in support of the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No. 2) and I look forward to it coming to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. I want to assure the previous speaker in terms of the issue raised about increased funding that that, along with other issues, gives us the opportunity to consider it and make recommendations back to the House. I certainly look forward to that discussion with the members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No. 2) is omnibus legislation that amends four existing pieces of legislation relating to issues relative to M\u0101ori: the Maniopoto Maori Trust Board Act 1988; the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955; the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975; and Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. I understand that it is intended that the bill will be broken up into four separate bills after the Committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EI note that the bill will bring into effect a key condition of the new deed of agreement achieved between the Tuwharetoa Maori Trust Board and the Crown in relation to Lake Taup\u014D, a taonga of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. The new deed of agreement clarifies T\u016Bwharetoa\u2019s property rights in Lake Taup\u014D. Under previous agreements T\u016Bwharetoa was granted a share in the revenue of the Crown generated from Lake Taup\u014D, and T\u016Bwharetoa\u2019s ownership of the bed of Lake Taup\u014D was also recognised. In 2005, negotiations were commenced to further clarify T\u016Bwharetoa\u2019s property rights in Lake Taup\u014D, and in 2007 this resulted in a new deed of agreement between the Crown and T\u016Bwharetoa in relation to the lake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe terms of the deed include agreement that the people of New Zealand will continue to have freedom of access to Lake Taup\u014D for non-commercial recreational use. Lake Taup\u014D will be managed in partnership between the Crown and the trust board. The trust board as a landowner will have the right to change commercial operations for use of the lake, the Crown will continue to own and manage the trout fishery, and the Crown will pay the trust board a capital sum of $9.865 million in settlement of loss of revenue and other financial issues. In the spirit of partnership, the Crown will also increase its annual payment to the trust board to $1.5 million to better reflect the trust board\u2019s share of the revenue the Crown generates from Lake Taup\u014D. So although it may seem that the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No. 2) is simply making a technical amendment to section 10 of the Maori Trust Boards Act, it marks a significant step for all Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EOn the amendment being made, the new annual payment will be triggered. This will put in place a key aspect of the deed, further strengthening the relationship between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. The trust board will have certainty over its rights as owner, and a sound financial base from which to manage Lake Taup\u014D for the benefit of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa and the public of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EI also indicate my support for the increase in membership of the Waitangi Tribunal. Last year the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee considered the amendment proposing a closing date of 1 September 2008 for submitting historical Treaty claims to the Waitangi Tribunal. I spoke in support of that amendment at the first reading of last year\u2019s M\u0101ori Purposes Bill and I noted that a closing date would give M\u0101ori, the Crown, and the Waitangi Tribunal the certainty of knowing that historical inquiry processes would be completed in a timely fashion. The ability to appoint four extra tribunal members will ensure that the completion of the historical inquiry process is done not only in a timely fashion but also in a comprehensive and expert manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has indicated that this bill will be coming to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. The amendments are technical in nature and those groups likely to be affected by them have been widely consulted. Many support the proposals. The committee therefore looks forward to receiving this bill, considering the public submissions received, and reporting it back to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c746b7cd5d2c46e8b7e2ad78f402cf6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c746b7cd5d2c46e8b7e2ad78f402cf6a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start by saying that the National Party will support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, especially the very, very non-controversial issues with the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955\u2014the voting age being 18, and the changes to the annual payment to the Tuwharetoa Maori Trust Board under the new agreement relating to the lake\u2014and issues with the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board Act 1988, including formalising of a new regional management committee for the K\u0101whia Harbour and effecting a name change for the Maniapoto council of elders. Also, the minor drafting errors in Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 and Te Ture Whenua Maori Amendment Act 2002 are to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to cut to the chase and say it is about time that there was an increase in the statutory cap in terms of the membership of the Waitangi Tribunal from 16 to 20. I think that some form of increase, and some form of change to the way we look at the Treaty settlement process, is well overdue. It has needed to happen for a long time. So I congratulate the Minister on at least increasing from 16 to 20 the statutory cap on the membership. Whether we will get an extra 4 people or whether we will get the maximum, and whether the tribunal will be funded appropriately to actually move quickly, to settle, to look into, and to tell the stories of those who are laying claims before the tribunal is another matter, and that, most probably, is not the outcome of this bill. On the surface, it is a mechanical bill that tightens the bolts, changes a few tyres here and there, and, hopefully, puts a new spin on this Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and the work he has done\u2014or the lack of work\u2014over the last 7 or 8 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EMy colleague the Hon Georgina te Heuheu was absolutely right in her criticism of the Minister in terms of his wanting to include in this bill the amendment to the Maori Trustee Act 1955. I was shocked and appalled that no one had told the Minister that in a M\u0101ori Purposes bill we could not really have as controversial a measure as that. A M\u0101ori Purposes bill is an omnibus bill, and it is supposed to be supported by the House. At the briefing he gave the National Party we saw that the bill had the amendment to the M\u0101ori Trustee Act, and, as my colleague said, to change something like that, to use a M\u0101ori Purposes bill to change something as fundamental as the M\u0101ori Trustee and the role of the M\u0101ori Trustee, is huge. It is not only controversial but also a huge step in the wrong direction, I would suggest. There has not been any consultation whatsoever with those beneficiaries, who basically own the bank in terms of the M\u0101ori Trustee and whose money it is that the M\u0101ori Trustee looks after in the interest of those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe National Party will not stand in the way of this bill, which, as I said, is a mechanical bill. It changes the nuts, changes a few tyres here and there, and greases the wheels. I think, when it does come to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, we will find\u2014and the House will find\u2014that the most interesting part of this bill will be the amendment to the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. That really has been, and will continue to be, the nub of the question as to race relations in the next 5-10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWe know that educational standards, health issues, and the like will continue to be issues, but until this nation is able to stand up and say to itself that we have honestly and fairly tried to address the claims before the tribunal in a manner that is quick and lasting, then we are not going to go anywhere near where we thought our country might have been 10, 20, or 150 years ago. I think that will be the major point of the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) when it comes before the select committee. It will be about where our nation goes. We cannot go down a track of just tinkering with legislation and hoping that one day things will just fall into place. The increase from 16 to 20 on the statutory cap is basically nothing legislation. We will see whether it does what the Minister says it will do. I have grave doubts, because we cannot increase the cap unless we are going\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ea74cbf5324f87844d615415a52d8a\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You were blaming Winston last time!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282419e6c5c454b9cb0192953b079967a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019s fault, I say to Mr Horomia. It has nothing to do with New Zealand First. Like I said about the last bill, it has got everything to do with the Minister wanting to show the community that he has been doing something\u2014whatever it is. For the last 8 years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9b6c1c8c6146c2a54cc2d57abca27f\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why more M\u0101ori work. That\u2019s why M\u0101ori assets are growing. We work hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022950ed91af2ec45cc8a1da6bec23a26d2\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes; that is why M\u0101oridom voted for the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995a27861c114020b721d7a5f90d558e\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll saddle up the market rents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266442a97f5ef4416bc2372516b5705eb\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh\u2014market rents! That Minister can talk about market rents. He was one of the slum landlords down on the East Coast. He was trying to rent out his house to his wh\u0101nau, and I would not have rented out a house that looked like that to a dog. But the Minister did, and we all know that. We all know he is a bit of a landlord down on the East Coast. We all know he is one of the absentee landlords, but that is all right. What we are talking about is a Clayton\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi amendment to the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWhat we are here today to talk about is that Minister\u2019s lack of foresight and lack of vision in the 8 years he has been sitting in his seat and taking the ministerial salary, the Crown car, and everything that goes with it, like the free flights all around the country. All he can come up with is increasing the membership of the tribunal from 16 to 20. That is not going to work unless we put in substantial resources along with the extra four people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c4c0d29359443fb9d0c43ce353d44f9\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Which has been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ea0cab06f94c1fa44e4b733ccf86c5\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it has been done\u2014in the twilight of the member\u2019s career. He is in the twilight of his career and he wants to make an impression, but the only lasting impression the Minister makes is that of a do-nothing Minister for 8 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ENational will vote for this bill. We want it to come before the select committee, because we want to hear what the people have to say about this Minister\u2019s lack of work over 8 years. He has been paid, but he could have stayed at home. In fact, it would have been better if he had stayed at home and taken the salary that he has been on for so long. We will support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, and we cannot wait for the submissions to roll in, in their thousands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00223436588569fe4953a023027eb581f97a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223436588569fe4953a023027eb581f97a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It must be great to be the spokesperson on M\u0101ori affairs for the National Party. That person could make one speech a year, then go home for Christmas. Mr Henare gets even that part wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI ask which members remember the fiscal cap of $1 billion that Doug Graham floated in 1994 with National\u2019s consent and backing. When I heard Georgina te Heuheu say that National would provide the resources on this matter I pricked up my ears, because that will come as the best-kept secret within the politics of this country as far as M\u0101ori are concerned. That is the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESecondly, as Mr Henare well knows, National says one thing before an election and does the very reverse after it. When National was in power there was never any mention whatsoever, in respect of the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill\u2019s effect on the tribunal\u2019s work, of ever properly providing the tribunal with the resources to do its job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225144e2a4198f4b8b9b3c4f2608d11f00\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a842febcf524e7f834504a7f171a912\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Is that wrong? I ask Mr Finlayson to tell me why I am wrong. I say to Mr Finlayson that he cannot sit there and shout out every day. The member is qualified, so he can tell me why I am wrong. He cannot. That was the value of that interjection. I think Mr Finlayson is one of the most qualified people in the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225985be8112e24a1fb5780d93f365b9b9\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: So they say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f705033f4a64d8d88d2e006d9a6bbe2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I suppose Mr Woolerton can throw in that interjection. When Mr Finlayson is put to the test, he also does not know what he is talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis is National\u2019s record. When did National provide the tribunal with the resources to do its job? Everybody knows that it is a huge job to be done, and if we are going to get the target settlement dates completed via the tribunal in a way that makes M\u0101oridom happy, then the tribunal will need greater resourcing\u2014perhaps more than this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229387f50827794773a6c3df3a8344cdce\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve done nothing for us in 8 years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d83ae4d3d543cc857e9753cdf73d26\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I suppose we could say the Government is guilty of not doing anything in 8 years, but what is National\u2019s record? What has National\u2019s record been since 1975? It has done nothing at all. It has done nothing at all since the tribunal was first established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI also say to Mr Henare that it is not right to criticise a M\u0101ori who still owns ancestral land. That is the aim of the exercise\u2014to have ancestral land, to keep it, and, hopefully, to pass it on to future generations. Why Mr Horomia should be slagged for being such a M\u0101ori is beyond me, but then there may be a slight envy factor that we could refer to here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Trustee funds have been taken out of this bill. I ask whether members remember that in 1985 an attempt was made by Roger Douglas to sweep all the funds into the consolidated account via an addition to the schedule. That is what he did, and he got stopped\u2014not by the National Party. [Interruption] No, he was not one of mine. Roger Douglas has never been one of New Zealand First\u2019s people. I say to Mr Bennett that Roger Douglas is one of his types of people, and he is welcome to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d039645ce046c0a806489d1e413c60\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He knows a lot about politics, that fella!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d718b93635d4f63b1d6411c10dfec83\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he is a new member and he does not even know who Roger Douglas is. But I will tell members what he does know. He knows how to imitate Roger Douglas\u2019 policies\u2014how to pillage the country and leave it wide open to the ravages of international money, based not on the interests of this country\u2019s wealth and export creation but just on helping out one\u2019s mates, which is what the Electoral Finance Bill is all about, as we all know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f11fd4dd587e4007bf80ea47afe877a5\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why they hate it so much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220680890da7364fe4847d68766f870806\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they always revert to type. That happened in 1985. Then, of course, as Georgina te Heuheu said, there was an inquiry in 1991 by two very able people, Mr Charters in particular, and the M\u0101ori Trustee has been soundly based ever since. We will be very interested to see what the legislation says, come next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELet me ask a question of the National Party. What is the National Party policy on the issue of the M\u0101ori Trustee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227634e9c7a49449bc8ccf466199421dee\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Wait and see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c41f55c8e22454b8c3774f122ac9d51\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I get it. What is the policy? It is \u201Cwait and see\u201D. Why have those members departed from their real policy, which is \u201Cme too-ism\u201D? Someone on the Government side of the House says something, and National members say \u201Cme too\u201D. It goes even as far as the music industry. We have seen it in respect of National\u2019s DVD. Why everybody is complaining about Mr Key using Coldplay\u2019s music I do not know, because that is what National\u2019s stance has been. It is \u201Cme too\u201D on everything, including the music. We saw a variation on that today. It is called \u201Cwait and see\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI suggest to the National Party spokesperson from T\u016Bwharetoa that we would like to know National\u2019s policy before Christmas. All these M\u0101ori will be going to all these unveilings and all these marae, and having all these wh\u0101nau meetings, and they would like to know what the National Party\u2019s policy is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928cf4133cdd4c10a39b239293d03aab\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Finlayson knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c15fa36bef433ba1391bc06088f3bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He would be the only guy in the party who does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAll I want to say is simply this. The bill does increase the numbers on the tribunal from 16 to 20. Frankly, I think it is not enough. The tribunal needs more members if we are to expedite its work and take this issue, which has tended to linger for far too long, off the political agenda as a result of people being satisfied that their claims have been properly met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhile I am talking about this issue, I just want to say this. The Central Plateau settlement should be going ahead with expedition. To delay this matter month after month and year after year is not in anybody\u2019s interests. I would ask those other people who are not happy to go back again to join with the original claimant group in order to try to sort out this matter before they next come to Government, rather than go through this tortuous process of going to the High Court for a further legal wrangle. But, then again, which party said that this would be the matter that would create more dissension amongst M\u0101ori than any other? In actual fact, it was New Zealand First. We said that. There is nothing as antiseptic as the old saying \u201CI told you so\u201D, but we did say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI conclude by thanking the Minister for the precise and clear way in which he enunciated the provisions of the bill, and to wish all those in M\u0101oridom\u2014in fact, the country itself\u2014a very happy Christmas and a delightful New Year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3eaef6b6ea7462a83227318d6746de3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3eaef6b6ea7462a83227318d6746de3\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a very short call on the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2), to say that the Green Party is supporting it. We are pleased to be able to do so. It does do some useful things. I do not see that it is particularly controversial, though some members, especially this week, have made an absolute drama out of all sorts of strange things, for quite unnecessary reasons. But it all adds to the pleasure of being here, so I do not mind particularly. It is certainly entertaining. It is very good that this bill is before the House. It means that this work will be done. We agree with much of what is in the bill, and we look forward to the comments from submitters and to working in the select committee on progressing the legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00225e2cacc424c149c5a262c7135462b305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e2cacc424c149c5a262c7135462b305\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker. As has been noted before, this bill is an omnibus bill amending four Acts: the Maniapoto Maori Trust Board Act 1988, the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955, the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, and Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. In considering these bills I thought of some words of my ancestors\u2014he kai kei te hara a te kak\u012B. It is a literal reference to food that causes the throat to sin, which is an allusion to the sin of overindulgence\u2014ar\u0101, kai kia m\u0101kona. Gluttony is a fault that is severely criticised amongst M\u0101oridom, and gluttony is the fault we level at this Maori Purposes Bill (No 2). The only consolation we can offer the House is the fact that the excesses of this bill today are at least somewhat restrained by the fact that the amendments to the Maori Trustee Act 1953 will be considered at a later stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe want to place on record our appreciation that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs listened to our concerns about the overcrowding of bills that have come before this House. We will never understand the logic of squashing a whole heap of different legislative items together for the sake of getting them through the House. We are pleased that the very significant proposals being put up around creating the M\u0101ori Trustee as a stand-alone organisation have been deferred for another day. I say kia ora to Parekura. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBut getting back to the feast that is being debated today, I turn to the bill that we will digest in its four separate parts. The chameleon actions of this Government towards the age of youth never cease to astound us. On the one hand, the Minimum Wage (New Entrants) Amendment Bill creates a situation in which 16 and 17-year-olds are entitled only to 80 percent of the adult wage, and then this bill looks to promote a minimum voting age of 18 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe amendments to the Maori Trust Boards Act address yet another peculiarity around age\u2014this time, the fact that the current minimum voting age under the Act is 20 years. The thing is that the M\u0101ori trust boards that come within the jurisdiction of this bill are mandated iwi organisations, subject to the Maori Fisheries Act 2004, in which the minimum voting age is 18 years. This is not the first piece of legislation, and it is bound not to be the last, in which the merry-go-round of eligibility ages for youth is creating havoc for legislators. We suggest that a useful outcome of this specific issue in the Maori Purposes Bill (No 2) to validate the voting age as 18 might be to consider a broader item of legislation that addresses the uncertainty around consistency with matters of age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAnother aspect of the amendments to the Maori Trust Boards Act is the amendment to give effect to the recent agreement made between Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa M\u0101ori Trust Board and the Crown, to repeal annuity and revenue-sharing arrangements in place of a lump-sum payment. This aspect of the bill has a fascinating wh\u0101kapapa dating back some 80 years to 1927, when the Crown legislated to vest title in Lake Taup\u014D, the Waikato River\u2014up to and including the Huka Falls\u2014and most of the rivers flowing into Lake Taup\u014D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt was only 15 years ago, in 1992, following years of negotiations, that the Crown agreed to return title to the trust board as trustee for its beneficiaries. The passage of the last decade and more has seen the Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa M\u0101ori Trust Board involved in complex negotiations towards securing title in respect of the lake bed and the bed of the Waikato River to the Huka Falls. Having secured title, the board negotiated with the Crown to grant licences and concessions for commercial purposes, and to charge for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis series of negotiations, contained in a deed signed on 10 September 2007, has freed up T\u016Bwharetoa to negotiate with local government in the management of the lake as a taonga of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. This bill therefore comes at the end of some 80 years of perseverance and commitment from T\u016Bwharetoa to give effect to that September agreement to repeal annuity and revenue-sharing arrangements, in place of an annual payment to Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa M\u0101ori Trust Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe support the opportunity for T\u016Bwharetoa to proceed in this regard, but we must place on record the ongoing issues that remain to be dealt with regarding the anomaly to do with water\u2014that is, that T\u016Bwharetoa has rights over space above the water but not over the water itself. To use a word that has been used in this Chamber today, is this not something of a Clayton\u2019s concept if ever there was one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI refer now to the Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board. The amendment relating to the trust board is a significant but safe set of proposals around naming and representation rights. The bill will change the name of the Maniapoto council of elders from Te Mauri o Maniapoto to Te Kaumatua Kaunihera o Maniapoto. Both the council and the trust board agree that the new name better reflects the nature of the council, and, given the obvious unity, we will, of course support the proposal, which reflects their interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe bill also amends the M\u0101ori Trust Boards Regulations 1985 to enable a new Nga Tai o Kawhia Regional Management Committee for the K\u0101whia Harbour region to have representation on the Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board. That is another amendment that we as the M\u0101ori Party, a proud and independent M\u0101ori voice in Parliament, will of course support to ensure that all Maniapoto-affiliated marae are represented both by a regional management committee and by a representative on the trust board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Maori Purposes Bill (No 2) also introduces two amendments to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993: one, to remove an incorrect reference to section 227 in section 40(2); and, two, to, of all things, correct the spelling of \u201Cincorporation\u201D. I might be out of order here but, really, how can it take 14 years for someone to realise that \u201Cincorporation\u201D is spelt with two i\u2019s and not one! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI move now to the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. The last course in the h\u0101kari laid out in the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) will be to increase the statutory cap on the membership of the Waitangi Tribunal from 16 to 20. This move to enhance the membership is in response to an anticipated increase in its workload as a result of the rushing forward of the closing date for the submission of historical Treaty claims in 2008. This is a very significant amendment and one that we wholeheartedly support. Any proposal to assist iwi in having their claims heard before the tribunal is to be supported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIndeed, this was a proposal that we first announced on 9 May 2007 in our release calling for more resourcing for the Waitangi Tribunal. We have constantly sought support for the enhancement of the role of the Waitangi Tribunal so it can deal with claims more speedily. The tribunal needs to be resourced sufficiently so it can work full time. We are hopeful that increasing the statutory cap on the membership of the Waitangi Tribunal will be a step in the right direction and will lead also to the opportunity to review more widely regarding functions and funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe note, however, that setting deadlines for historical claims will not actually do anything to bring the process to an end. Just as the amendments to specify a voting age of 18 bring up far broader issues around entitlement, no one in this House can ignore the wider context around the Treaty settlement process. Improving the settlement process from a M\u0101ori perspective will ensure that the claims will be settled earlier, that they will be settled fairly, and that there is broad consensus for the process and therefore greater commitment to settlement resolution. This bill does not achieve the progress we so desperately need, but it does establish a starting point for at least the conversation to occur. We will support this bill going to the select committee to ensure that the conversation is given space to take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00220019cc106582432c8c4a4d88045a9e10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220019cc106582432c8c4a4d88045a9e10\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call because the National Party has indicated through previous speakers that it will support this bill going to a select committee. As a member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee I am looking forward to dealing with the issues it raises, particularly in relation to Part 3, which deals with the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut before dealing with the particular provisions, I think, in fairness to Sir Douglas Graham, who was such an outstanding Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, I ought to respond in some detail to the vulgar, crude, and intemperate attack made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs. He has come back from North Korea and, of course, we are pleased to see him back from North Korea, but I think that he has learnt a thing or two from his new friend Kim Jong Il and he is confusing the truth and propaganda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the truth of the record of the National Government between 1992 and 1999 and at the work done by Sir Douglas Graham as the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, we know that for Mr Peters to stand up in this House and insult that work by implication is totally unfair. The record of the National Government between 1992 and 1999 in this area is nothing other than outstanding, and that Minister, who is now a member of the Labour Government\u2014he ran away from the National Party in the mid-1990s\u2014did not do anything to advance the cause of justice in so far as the historical grievances were concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291af50e44d3f4e6b882623e3d5f12368\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is that why you won all the M\u0101ori seats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b473c77a24f4f4da7d438fc85a12a14\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can understand why he probably has the pip that Sir Douglas Graham was made the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, because I know he made a bid for it when he was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. But Jim Bolger, with his customary foresight, knew he would be no good and he appointed Sir Douglas Graham, who was then the Minister of Justice, to take the job. So I can understand why that member has got the pip. He was pipped at the post by Sir Douglas Graham. All I can say for New Zealand is thank goodness he was, because if he had been the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, then his performance probably would have been as lousy as Mark Burton\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe reality of the matter is that Jim Bolger and Sir Douglas Graham did a great job in the Treaty area, and they can be very proud of what they did. For that member, the former member of Tauranga, to stand up 9 years later and insult that memory is grossly unfair. If he has any decency he will stand up and apologise to Sir Douglas Graham when I have finished my speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is a great honour to follow Georgina te Heuheu, because she was a member of the tribunal from 1986 to 1996, and a very good member of the tribunal she was. She was there, and when she talks about issues about the tribunal, she talks not only as an extremely diligent member of Parliament but also as a person who made a significant contribution to New Zealand as a member of that tribunal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227800242f6d4a48bcbe804bddab140347\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s the policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e793cfa653e94de6b2ea4987da23adb7\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member asks where the policy is. The policy will be announced in due course. Where is the member\u2019s policy on all sorts of things? The policy will be announced in due course, and I am sure that the M\u0101ori of New Zealand will be very impressed with it. We will wipe the floor with you when the policy is announced. Let me deal very briefly with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a37d02abf3a4dfcbbd1414117ce62ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I know that the member is a very junior member and has just arrived here, but he cannot talk about wiping the floor \u201Cwith you\u201D. That is not a proper parliamentary term. I would ask him to try to collect his thoughts, which are pretty chaotic right now, and apologise for what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6a3174566b4d22b81258d1971f5992\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is quite right. The last thing I would say is \u201Cwipe the floor with you\u201D, Madam Assistant Speaker. I regret that, because, of course, what I meant to say was that we will wipe the floor with the former member for Tauranga, just as Bob Clarkson will wipe the floor with the former member of Tauranga if Mr Peters decides to stand there again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet us get on to clause 16, which deals with the jurisdiction of the tribunal. This clause is an extremely good amendment and the National Party will support it. Clause 16 amends section 6 of the Treaty of Waitangi Act. It sets out the jurisdiction of the tribunal to consider claims. While the Minister of Foreign Affairs was away in Pyongyang his colleague Mr Woolerton introduced what could only be described as a half-baked member\u2019s bill to try to delete all references to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi from section 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f04c34e6238a4d5084b39c358a23a2e8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is outside the Standing Orders and parliamentary rules to seek to relitigate a bill that has been dealt with in the same term of a Parliament, as this speaker is wont to do and is trying to do now. I know that he is new to the House, and that he is only a junior member and does not know too much about procedure, but he cannot do that. I would ask him to come back to the legislation before the House now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c81cdd770b4c11a824891ee26f4b00\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member was making references outside the bill. He should please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221287da9ae0004edba83189244ecc940c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was, of course, making reference in passing for the benefit of the Minister, who has been so busy cuddling up to Kim Jong Il in Pyongyang that I thought it only fair I should tell him what his colleagues have been up to. That bill could only be described as dopey legislation, which sought to remove all references to the principles. Maybe if the Minister has time at some point, he should read section 6(1) of the Treaty of Waitangi Act, and he would see that to remove references to the principles there would render the whole Act meaningless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat is proposed is that all the subclauses in section 6 from subclause (4A) through to the end of section 6 be removed and put in the schedule. That is a perfectly sensible amendment and the National Party will support it. That issue really does not need any argument in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point\u2014and it has been adverted to by a number of speakers, including Dr Sharples\u2014concerns clause 15. It involves increasing the number of members of the tribunal from 16 to 20. The National Party, again, thinks that is a very sensible proposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut, as all the speakers have said, it is only part of the story, because the tribunal is suffering from not only a lack of numbers of members who can do the job but also a lack of adequate resourcing. Indeed, section 4(5) of the Act states that the Ministry of Justice is obligated to \u201Cfurnish such secretarial, recording, and other services as may be necessary to enable the Tribunal to exercise its functions and powers.\u201D The reality of the matter is that the legislative framework is there to enable this sort of thing, but it has not happened adequately enough over recent years. The tribunal suffers from a lack of resources. In particular, it suffers from a lack of qualified historians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThere is also the need for proper funding for hearings, so that, as Mrs te Heuheu said, hearings can proceed with greater speed than they proceeded, for example, in the northern South Island tribunal inquiry Wai785. That was a stop-start affair for a number of years. For example, in August 2003 for a couple of days, the claimants themselves presented their evidence. Then there was a gap for some months before a hearing was held at \u014Cmaka Marae from 13 to 17 October, when Ng\u0101i Tahu presented its evidence in response. Again, there was another gap until November of that year, when the Crown heard evidence. Then there were final submissions\u2014I know, because I was involved in them\u2014early in the following year. Then there was a 3-year gap between the final submissions and the tribunal\u2019s release of the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMaybe the Minister of Foreign Affairs thinks a 3-year gap between the final submissions and the report is acceptable, but we in the National Party do not. We think it is unfair on the claimants, it is unfair on the Crown, and it is unfair on those who get involved in the hearings before the tribunal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo we say these are good measures, but they are only part of the story. What is needed is proper funding and proper resourcing\u2014particularly, I emphasise, proper resourcing achieved by finding historians who can help write the reports. These are the issues the Government needs to face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhen this M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) becomes law and the Treaty of Waitangi Act is thereby amended, the framework for getting on with the job and for completing Sir Douglas Graham\u2019s great achievements is there, but a lot more work needs to be done. National will be supporting this bill going through to the select committee, but we say that it is only part of the story. This Government\u2019s record on funding the tribunal, and indeed on the important work of resolving the historical grievances, is particularly poor, even by the Government\u2019s standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022591c1eb6f8d24f47a828599b64927444\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022591c1eb6f8d24f47a828599b64927444\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the E9 for the 1996 election, in which the National Party had a disastrous year in the M\u0101ori seats and we in New Zealand First won the whole lot of them, which would probably give a clear indication as to whether Mr Finlayson, the previous speaker, was making any sense or telling any truth whatsoever in his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00225462f6a70c1c422e953d4252f79c92d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225462f6a70c1c422e953d4252f79c92d7\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the results of the election in Tauranga in 2005, when Kim Jong Il\u2019s mate was completely outclassed by Bob Clarkson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3b2bddc68d146b099d21934d955bea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3b2bddc68d146b099d21934d955bea5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the returns in respect of expenditure in the Tauranga electorate at the last election, in which one candidate declared $10,000 and the court said: \u201CNo, you are not telling the truth. It is much more than that. Let us work our way through and find out what it is.\u201D He did sneak through because of other things, but the reality of it all is that he put in a false return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022573b50902ce0479ca42ba177ba3e303b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573b50902ce0479ca42ba177ba3e303b\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the report of the full court of the High Court that adjudicated on the petition brought by Mr Peters, which was the second resounding loss he had in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022 data-id=\u00221b8dc4a2e69a40159c69b84ca4580cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b8dc4a2e69a40159c69b84ca4580cb4\u0022\u003EBOB CLARKSON (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the paper declaring where Winston got his funds from during the election in Tauranga\u2014Western Bay Finance\u2014but, unfortunately, I do not have a paper, so I cannot do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256d362239411496ba90161bc04da67f4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not trifle with the House like that. If members do not have something to table, then they cannot ask for leave to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a87ea63d5e0a413fa4aa967debda49e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a87ea63d5e0a413fa4aa967debda49e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Assistant Speaker. That member has made that allegation to the man in question, who has denied it\u2014as I deny it. Why does he not go outside and say it? Because he knows he will have his little bottom sued off. There he is, prepared to make a statement to this House without one fact or the document, and, having said it, he admitted it. He should go outside and say that, and we will see how long he lasts\u2014\u201CBig Boy\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200365182803f4946b21aa88d12199707\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u00221c15309a319a4f55ab5775b9465eb0e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c15309a319a4f55ab5775b9465eb0e3\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to return the House to the seriousness of the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) and to take a short call on the bill, of which my colleague the Hon Parekura Horomia very ably moved the first reading today and on which the Minister of Foreign Affairs has also spoken very ably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe bill is one that is largely technical in nature, and perhaps not one that many P\u0101keh\u0101 have paid much attention to. I note that it will be broken up into four separate parts during the Committee of the whole House stage of the bill. There are two parts that I would particularly like to speak on. The first is the bill\u2019s provision for an increase in the membership of the Waitangi Tribunal from 16 to 20 members. The Labour Government is committed to settling all historical Treaty claims by 2020. The closing date of the submission of historical claims to the tribunal is, as we all know, 1 September 2008. Four of the current 16 warranted members of the Waitangi Tribunal are historians. Of course, the increase in the number of historical claims and the time frame in which they will need to inquire and report to the tribunal make it essential that there be more provision for extra members of the tribunal. Even more important, we have to consider the fact that many of the current members are part-time and that there are questions about whether they can serve on every case. It is essential that this work is done clearly, straightforwardly, and with provision for reaching the date of 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that an important part of reaching the goal of the ability of the tribunal to inquire and report fairly and openly is that we increase the number to 20. Many P\u0101keh\u0101 will not have realised the significance of this, but the fact is that those four additional members should assist the tribunal in achieving that goal of inquiring into, and reporting on, the historical Treaty claims by 2015, contributing to the Labour Government\u2019s goal of settling all those historical Treaty claims by 2020, which is something that has been well received throughout this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c325af03d8064c62b752202533c27a7c\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the House rose for the dinner break I was speaking on the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2), and I had dealt with the increase in numbers for the Waitangi Tribunal, which is a very sensible move in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe second matter I was interested to take a short call on is that of voting ages. The bill will align the minimum voting ages under the Maori Trust Boards Act 1955 and the Maori Fisheries Act 2004. This is a very good thing. Some M\u0101ori trust boards, of course, also act as trustees of their iwi fisheries entity. This means in practice that when iwi members vote for members of their trust board they are also voting for the trustees of their fisheries settlement entity. So we can understand some confusion over who is eligible to vote. Under the Maori Trust Boards Act iwi members must be 20 whereas under the Maori Fisheries Act 2004, 18 and 19-year-olds can also vote. This inconsistency in the minimum voting ages causes statutory compliance issues for trust boards. If trust boards let beneficiaries aged 20 years and over vote, they will find that they comply with the Maori Trust Boards Act but are in breach of the Maori Fisheries Act. Equally, if trust boards let 18 and 19-year-olds vote, they will comply with the Maori Fisheries Act but will be in breach of the Maori Trust Boards Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe bill will change the minimum voting age under the Maori Trust Boards Act to 18 years, bringing the Act into line not only with the Maori Fisheries Act\u2014a very good move on the Minister\u2019s part\u2014but also with society\u2019s common understanding of the age of maturity and the voting age for general and other elections. Considering the many different legal ages for various things in New Zealand, any move to align ages of entitlements is a very good action, and will be of general interest to the New Zealand community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00223d77e7735dcc4442bb945df2118e762d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d77e7735dcc4442bb945df2118e762d\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the M\u0101ori Purposes Bill (No 2) be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, that the committee report back to the House on or before 27 March 2008, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 191(2), 195(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002208075c2f3b944fdbb7d5af35654b85a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022119ed515498d4749ad2e5d01a75566f0\u0022\u003EElectricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abab6a2a81374532b8244cdf8d0d1e36\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022f830ecbcf8d448d2880059886fb7ea3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f830ecbcf8d448d2880059886fb7ea3d\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I will be recommending that the bill be referred to the Commerce Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe Electricity Industry Reform Act of 1998 required ownership separation between electricity lines companies and electricity supply companies in order to facilitate competition in the electricity industry. The Act was amended in 2001 and again in 2004 to encourage lines companies to invest in generation\u2014in particular, in \u201Cnew renewables\u201D, provided they did so in separate companies and complied with arm\u2019s-length rules. In practice, notwithstanding these amendments, there has been little investment in generation by lines businesses. Lines companies submitted that the amendments did not go far enough and that barriers remained to their investing in generation. The purpose of this amendment bill is to address the issues that discourage lines companies from investing in renewable generation while retaining key restrictions on cross involvement between a company\u2019s lines and generation activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe bill achieves this through three main policy changes. The first policy change is intended to make it easier for owners of lines businesses to sell the output of the generation they were permitted to own under the 2001and 2004 amendments to the Act. The objective here is to encourage the owners of lines businesses to invest in permitted generation, especially generation from new renewable energy sources. This policy objective will be achieved by allowing lines companies to retail up to 100 percent of the nominal annual output capacity of their permitted generation. This is an improvement on the existing Act, where allowable sales are restricted to the actual output of the generating station. In situations where this generation has a variable output, such as on a wind farm, this places a significant restriction on the company\u2019s ability to sell the electricity it generates. Lines companies will also be allowed to trade in financial hedges, without restriction, in order to manage their risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill proposes a number of significant changes to corporate governance rules intended to lower the costs of corporate separation and compliance with arm\u2019s-length rules. The threshold for compliance will be raised to 10 megawatts, an increase from the present limit of the higher of 2 megawatts or 5 percent of maximum demand. Currently, a lines company intending to operate in both lines and generation, or retail activities, needs separate boards and management structures. The proposed amendments will relax the separate board member requirement, thus allowing the same person to be a director of both the lines and the supply businesses, provided that there is at least one independent director, excluding executive directors. In addition, the same person will be able to be the manager of both companies, when the companies supply up to a threshold of 30 megawatts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe second main change is to narrow the scope of ownership separation requirements to focus on geographical areas where there is potential for the exercise of market power and anti-competitive practices, namely where lines and supply are co-located. This will be achieved by allowing owners of lines businesses to be involved in generation and retailing without limit outside their lines area. In addition, requirements for corporate separation and compliance with arm\u2019s-length rules outside the lines area will be repealed. Existing ownership separation rules will be retained where lines and supply are co-located. This is because co-owned, co-located lines and supply businesses have both the incentive and the ability to lessen competition in retailing and local generation. Ownership separation removes this incentive and ability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe third main change is to amend the definition of renewables. Currently, the owner of a lines business may only invest, without quantity limitations, in \u201Cnew renewables\u201D, which are defined to exclude hydro and geothermal generation using traditional technologies. This new definition includes all renewables, to reflect the Government\u2019s policy of encouraging the development of renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill is an important element in the New Zealand Energy Strategy. By facilitating lines company construction of renewable generation and the selling of the output, these proposals will contribute significantly towards our 90 percent renewable energy target. At the end of the debate I will move that the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill 2007 be referred to the Commerce Committee for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0d8ef1481f84498b6be6351661aac13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0d8ef1481f84498b6be6351661aac13\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will support the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill being referred to the Commerce Committee. We do so making the observation that this bill and its intention joins a very long list of policies announced by the National Party, then flogged by the Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bac73ef77dd472b8d37b083fa1b8567\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: No one believes that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798b7f1bca374c90bd6d48307ca2b981\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Poor old Sue Moroney is the Labour junior whip. I mention her name because her opportunities to have it recorded in Hansard during her political career have been relatively few. We had a policy in 2005, going into the election, that did exactly this. If the member were to go through the Hansard record of the debate on the 2004 amendment legislation, she would see reported throughout it our comment that restricting lines companies in the way they were being restricted then would not result in the necessary pick-up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Hon Harry Duynhoven, who does not know much about this topic and who unfortunately is just a stand-in Minister of Energy tonight, did his best. He read from the officials\u2019 notes and he did a beautiful job of reading them. It was almost seamless; one would not have known he was reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d135bc8db745d38f74f042842e7ee7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Other than the strings! He\u2019s just a puppet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2ec80e17945491c8e5f6dcf4bbc2e4d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that is right\u2014other than the pauses sometimes being in the wrong place. He tried to explain what this is all about. It is pretty simple. Lines companies throughout the country obviously have an interest in electricity distribution. They also have very, very stringent limits on what they are able to invest in. They are companies that have particularly strong balance sheets, and the ability for those companies to invest in generation\u2014particularly embedded generation, or distributed generation\u2014is quite considerable. If they did invest in a wind farm that had 100 megawatts of capacity, they would never have that 100 megawatts available for sale, because we know that a wind farm works at only 43 percent or 45 percent efficiency if we are lucky. They would be constantly chasing their tails. This provision says that the lines companies can go out and retail their full 10,000 gigawatt hours, that they can supply that by buying in and out of the market, that they can hedge that cost by taking out hedge contracts, and that they can fully participate in the market, provided that they put the generation in place, and that is the key to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis country has a scarcity of electrical energy, but we should not. We should have an abundance of electrical energy, but, unfortunately, for the last 8 years the Labour Government has made conditions so tough that no one has invested to any great extent. It is very interesting that in the 9 years of the last National Government, nearly 1,600 megawatts of new electricity was put in place, but in the last 8 years the amount has been much less than 700 megawatts. A lot of that has been renewal, which we want, but its efficiency rating is so low that it causes a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESurprisingly, this is not a bad attempt by the Government to put into legislation the National Party\u2019s 2005 energy policy. For that reason, we are prepared to consider it at the Commerce Committee. We think that some of the arm\u2019s length separations in here are a little bit of a joke. I guess they reflect how the factions work inside the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40f3c264c714e44ac0049d374fa06c8\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, there are plenty of those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed3aac2a3408471a900552385f0b4d2c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Everyone knows they are all one, but there are different heads of factions and different handshakes going on around the place at different times, and they all try to keep their little bit secret from each other. I do not think that is a good way to conduct business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe will look at the provisions as the select committee considers them. All in all, I do think that if this law is enacted and the lines companies respond to the opportunities offered by the change in the law, it should have quite an effect in at least holding the price of electricity, if not seeing it fall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022b94f0d0f18814f74ad91d2f80bb8ed1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b94f0d0f18814f74ad91d2f80bb8ed1d\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a short call on the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. It was interesting to hear the previous speaker, Gerry Brownlee. He had some sort of paranoia about National\u2019s policies being stolen by the Labour Party. Yeah, right! [Interruption] That is right. It also reminded us of Max Bradford. That name is a blast from the past that I never thought I would have to worry about. The unlamented Max Bradford\u2014oh my goodness! We have moved on from there, but I do not like to be reminded of these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224170457a963d42ff82367242bde44323\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: His colleagues are still here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2cb08a8ed874cc58b98e76d49d87b8d\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill is an important part of the Government\u2019s plan for a sustainable future. Sustainability is something that we are all coming to grips with. Everybody is talking about it. Everybody knows that we have to deal with the issues facing our planet and the issues we have with climate change. Our Labour-led Government has set a goal of 90 percent renewable generation by 2025. It is a perfectly achievable goal. We have already introduced legislation for a New Zealand emissions trading scheme and a 10-year ban on baseload thermal generation, except where it is needed to ensure security of supply. This Government is committed to both renewable generation and security of supply in order to continue New Zealand\u2019s drive for economic transformation. We are encouraging more renewable generation, improving energy efficiency, and maintaining security of supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is to deliver all of those things, and the amendment is to further encourage lines companies to invest in renewable generation. As the Minister has outlined, it does that through three major changes. First, it makes it easier for owners of lines businesses to sell the renewable generation they are permitted to own under the 2001 and 2004 amendments. Second, it allows owners of lines businesses to be involved in generation and retailing without restrictions outside their lines area. Third, it extends the definition of eligible renewables to include hydro and geothermal energy now covering all renewables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It is good that it has the support of the Opposition. I can assure the Opposition that we did not steal its policy. This is our idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877eaa4dc4004e2bab2315581d8db3aa\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re desperate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225403ecd5ab8b4ebaba0649a96951f895\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Opposition members are desperate to claim ownership of things that we all know we have to deal with. I look forward to the debate at the Commerce Committee and to the bill being reported back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00225aedaec1d3f941a6a2ded6ce78f453dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aedaec1d3f941a6a2ded6ce78f453dd\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. I understand that it is in perfect line with National\u2019s 2005 policy initiative. Indeed, we probably would have had it more quickly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c834dc25a4a14cfca807af24c682164a\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a photocopy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a000c49ae98e4079a49915752cffc4d8\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ryall could well be right; it could be a photocopy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI fully concur with the points that have already been raised by my colleague Gerry Brownlee. In taking this call I will illustrate how useful this bill will be to the smaller lines companies, like those we have in the West Coast and Buller regions. The mission of Westpower down on the West Coast is to operate successful businesses that provide the following electricity-based services: distributing electricity, generating electricity, providing power systems, electrical contracting, asset management services, and electrical engineering consultancy services. Further north at Westport we have Buller Electricity Ltd, and its mission is to be \u201Can innovative, customer-focused company providing excellent services and a high quality reticulation system.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThose specifications are exactly what people would want. Both of those organisations exist for the community or are owned by the community, but the impact of legislative and regulatory changes on companies the size of Buller Electricity and the somewhat larger Westpower is considerable. On the one hand they strive to be a successful enterprise, and on the other hand they have been caught between the narrowing gap of escalating costs and prices restricted by regulation. The key to success for these smaller lines companies in this bill is that hydroelectricity generation is now classed as a renewable\u2014something that was not certain previously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis bill frees up small lines companies to get engaged in electricity generation, thereby improving their income and their security of supply, and limiting their dependence on imposed costs from other generators. Without this bill, if Westpower wishes to build a hydro scheme, it has to seek a special exemption from the Commerce Commission. Making an application for an exemption is not a cheap exercise, and the associated costs are restrictive. That does not stop the development from happening, but the arm\u2019s length rules provisions in section 25 of the Act make it necessary\u2014and expensive\u2014to seek exemption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe interpretation clause in the bill specifies that \u201C \u2018renewable energy source\u2019 means solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, biomass, tidal, wave, ocean current sources, or any other energy source that occurs naturally and the use of which will not permanently deplete New Zealand\u2019s energy sources of that kind, because those sources are generally expected to be replenished by natural processes within 50 years or less of being used\u201D. This lifts a whole load of restrictions that small lines companies previously worked under. It allows them to look at having hydro schemes for increased security of supply and a reduction of supply costs, and it reduces the cost of the 30 percent transmission loss that is reputed to occur when electricity is sent from Lake Coleridge across Mount Horrible to the West Coast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe already have Westpower looking at a hydro scheme that will produce perhaps 6 megawatts in South Westland, which would be adequate for the development of hotels and dairying in that area. Without increased electricity, we will not get development there. The West Coast has 56 rivers and heaps of creeks, with limited reservoir capacity. The development of new systems will probably depend on the use of run-of-the-river systems, taking full advantage of the plentiful and frequent gifts of rain we enjoy down there. This bill provides for a 50 megawatt limit on generation by lines companies. This is not at all restrictive in the case of the West Coast, which has a capacity to use 42 megawatts at peak periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EAnother benefit this bill will bring is in allowing knowledge to be freed up and used to good advantage. There are presently large reservoirs of intellectual capacity relating to electrical generation within the lines companies. For instance, Westpower has a contracting subsidiary called ElectroNet, with over 120 qualified staff involved in asset management, information technology, and electrical and lines divisions. The company has an excellent record of having the resource and expertise to compete at the highest level in the electrical field. Adding generation capacity to lines companies creates an opportunity for career path development. It is particularly important at the present time, with the brain drain and skills drain to Australia, that we take every opportunity we can to attract people and hold them by usefully engaging their talents. This bill goes some way towards that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELooking further north, I see that the bill allows Buller Electricity to continue to develop hydro opportunities. It has a chequered history of doing that. One reflects on Buller Electricity Ltd v Attorney-General over the Ng\u0101kawau scheme, which brought everything to a grinding halt. Without this bill, if small, community-owned lines companies such as Buller Electricity have fulfilled an intention to generate locally from hydro generation\u2014and this is the catch 22\u2014it would be compelled to sell it off, because ownership of hydro generation without hydro being classed as renewable prevented any benefits from coming to Buller Electricity. In other words, it was stuck in a poverty trap. This bill will provide potential income streams, which will benefit Buller consumers. None the less, the company is still in the situation of having no foreseeable load growth, capped revenue, and ever-increasing costs. At least now there can be revenue from its own generation plus sales outside the region, the benefits of which go back to the consumer-owned trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I support this bill but would like to sound one note of caution: in spite of this beneficial change of regulation, the Resource Management Act could still stifle the sensible development of this initiative. I think the beneficiaries of this bill will welcome National\u2019s policy on revision of the Resource Management Act to give this bill true effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022301a4aae664d463ebe10370967c78562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022301a4aae664d463ebe10370967c78562\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I thought the previous speaker made his point pretty well. I have to say he read that speech pretty darn well. Perhaps someone should advise him that from time to time when there is a little dot at the end of a sentence, one pauses; one does not carry on reading\u2014that is the idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288488f56b34c45a1aeeeef87bcc7b245\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a94bca644ad44a3aa7f7f1496307bbad\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No problem! I would love to give National Party members advice, and I know that that member will take my advice willingly. Let me get back to a few basics. I hope the National Party appreciates this, because my colleagues here are going to give me a little bit of borax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7da8e248b74a519d4f51295b4cfb86\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e917b543c7944d190e7a072b9f86f43\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. They will give me a little bit of hell, but never mind, I can handle that. When Max Bradford brought in his reforms\u2014[Interruption] They are getting a little bit irate now. At the time he did that, there was an abundance of electricity in this country. There was more than we needed. The theory was he would carve it up and there would be competing entities generating electricity, and that would reduce the price for the consumer. That worked for a year or so, but gradually the demand for electricity overtook the pace with which generation was being brought on stream. This bill is essential. This gives the lines companies more freedom to produce electricity. That is it in a nutshell; that is all it is about. Believe it or not, the first party to say that we should be doing that in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeef0b5fea2c41d59d24075d45e34158\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Was it ACT?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221792340489ff427187f25acdcd7ea88b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was not, actually. It was New Zealand First, and Phil Heatley, the member for Whangarei\u2014and I have just checked this\u2014followed us around on the campaign in 2005 and thought that that was a good idea and that National would follow that. That is how National became involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWith due respect, I cannot recall Labour wanting to give too much more freedom to lines companies; but they do now, because, firstly, the country needs more electricity, and these guys are prepared to get in and do it\u2014or we hope they are. Currently they can produce electricity but there is no incentive for them to do it, because they have to sell it all into the grid. This bill releases that obligation. But there is another incentive for them to do it, because the Government is putting on a moratorium; Part 2 of the emissions trading legislation, which the National Party voted for yesterday, will put a moratorium on base electricity produced from coal or gas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have real concerns about that, and I have no problem saying that, because I know that we have supported the bill, and my colleague Doug Woolerton stood in this House yesterday and acknowledged me as at least one New Zealand First member who has concerns about Part 2 of the emissions trading bill that had its first reading yesterday. Let me make it quite clear: I agreed with my caucus colleagues to send the bill to the select committee, but I do have real concerns about putting a moratorium on coal and gas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ELet me tell the House why; I know I am deviating from this bill but it is all intertwined and it is important that people understand the full reason. If we put a moratorium on coal and gas, it seems to be a little bit of a double standard, because we are mining coal and we are selling it to the Indians, the Chinese, and the Japanese, and two of those countries are not signed up to the Kyoto Protocol, and they are burning coal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224401357ed6ee473090449efa5868fc07\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: For steel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e119b14210384a978c25a9e6c4506a3e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: They are burning it, probably to produce steel and we are also giving exploration licences to people down south to go and look for oil. If they find oil, they will find gas first. We are saying that they are unlikely to be able to sell it into the New Zealand market, so that will discourage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022209672971fdf418995383e0680b1b62c\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t get it here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a4969b9ae2490bb182efe11f03c5cf\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The Green member says \u201CForget it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711c60a5b754452db60c927338201683\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: No, I said: \u201CYou can\u2019t get it here.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454c75476a604a28b42f629b55605e08\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you do not know that, with respect. You might think you know that, but you do not. If they find gas they will have no market in this country to sell it and they will have to sell it overseas. So that will be a disincentive for exploration for oil and whatever in this country. I say that that is a bit of a double standard, and that I have major concerns about supporting a moratorium on coal and gas, or thermal energy as it says in the bill. I want to be straight up. I wonder whether the Minister, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, will share that view. I know that the Greens will criticise me for it. I know that the National Party will criticise me for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBut let me just draw the attention of the House to the fact that tonight we will finish in urgency, tomorrow 120 MPs will go home, and most of us\u2014most of us\u2014will get on a plane and fly to wherever. Then we will come back Tuesday morning on another plane, and we will probably stay in a hotel overnight on Tuesday night, and our carbon footprint will go up considerably. Yet we stand in this House\u2014National Party members and Greens in particular\u2014saying we are greater than the average member of the public and that we should be doing everything possible to reduce our carbon footprint. I will not blame the Greens for the delay in the House. This crowd over here\u2014the 48 National Party members here\u2014have done their very, very best to delay this House over the last few days in urgency. They have been talking waffle, garbage, and God knows what to extend it out. They want to put 50 questions to members in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have got quite a lot off my chest tonight, actually. I have been dying to say much of this tonight. I am grateful that Arsenal won today and got into the UEFA Champions League play-offs and will be playing a European team. But, more important, back to this bill: this bill is a very simple, straightforward bill, and New Zealand First will be supporting it to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4a4cce0ebe242cba7d6907e2210b5a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4a4cce0ebe242cba7d6907e2210b5a8\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Once again the House sits to fix up Max Bradford\u2019s dog\u2019s breakfast, and I think back to just how many times we have had to do that since 1998.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c61854781094b9094083d8dc3b530ee\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: It was such a bad mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7e354aeef344449cdee55ebe2368b7\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: It was such a bad mess. I sat on the select committee considering Max Bradford\u2019s bill, and we had officials who were lawyers and economists come along to the select committee and say: \u201CIt will work like this. Under this great market we are having, this person here will be able to sell to that person there.\u201D I said, through the chair: \u201CBut they won\u2019t, because there aren\u2019t any wires running from here to there.\u201D The economists and lawyers looked at me and said: \u201CWires? What have wires got to do with it?\u201D. Well, I told them that if one is to sell electricity from here to there, one needs wires for it to run through. That idea seemed to be something that was completely beyond their comprehension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Max Bradford bill was a matter of pure ideology triumphing over all practicality and feasibility. It broke up an integrated and efficient system that was the envy of the world in that it had a plan for dispatching the most efficient generation first. That is replaced these days with a market, which sounds fine, except that a market can be gamed. A market can be gamed and we have no guarantee that it is the most efficient generation that is displaced first. The very sophisticated computer that Electricorp used to have did a good job of that. It broke up what it saw as a horizontal monopoly, with retail companies and lines companies owned in the same structure, and it was worried about cross-subsidisation. Well, it replaced that with a very much more powerful, and very much more serious, vertically integrated monopoly. We actually do not get competition, because we have five major generators that do not all retail in all areas. Where we have incumbent retailers in different regions that have virtually a regional monopoly, we do not have a fully competitive electricity market. We warned everyone at the beginning that we would not have that, because the market in New Zealand is too small for that, and ever since then we have been trying to fix it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe learnt shortly afterwards that when that bill went through, 500 megawatts of new, renewable generation\u2014mainly wind power\u2014fell off the table, because the lines companies had been planning to build another 500 megawatts and suddenly they were not allowed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea90c384a0344e7b96d0319050fe801c\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member saying that the wind power got blown away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa2588f5fb14ca9b0f49d86dea0151c\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am saying that wind power got blown away by the Max Bradford reforms\u2014500 megawatts. We have people standing in this House saying that not enough generation was built after that legislation went through. Well, 500 megawatts that would have been built was not built, because all of a sudden the builders were no longer able to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIn 2001 the first step was taken, which allowed lines companies to build small-scale renewable generation without a cap, and fossil generation up to 10 megawatts. That was logical for distributed generation to be built in the area where it was used, rather than having it built at one end of the country with massive pylons taking it to the other end. We do not lose as much on the lines if we use it locally. That sounded like a great idea, but what happened then was that the lines companies that looked into building such generation found they could not really sell the power, because they were selling it into a market that was totally controlled by their competitors. One does not get a very good price when one is selling through one\u2019s competitors. The problem was that they were not allowed to buy hedges. They were not allowed to buy back-up for their power. If a lines company builds a wind farm and it cannot buy hedge power from the market to sell to its customers when the wind is not blowing\u2014like, say, from someone else\u2019s hydro, which is the perfect match for wind power\u2014then it is hamstrung. It has to take whatever price the market hands out, rather than being able to sell at a good price. This legislation fixes that. Lines companies with generation will be able to buy hedges up to the level of the maximum output of their generation so that they can fill in the gaps when the generation is intermittent. That is a totally logical thing to be able to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI think it is also time, now that we have some of the new renewables like wind power happening, to revisit the definition of renewables in the 2001 Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Act. At that stage we excluded hydro conventional technology from the definition of renewables. We also excluded geothermal, because there were quite a lot of doubts at that stage about the amount of carbon dioxide that geothermal was putting out. At this stage, when we look at a future where we are trying not to use fossil energy for generation, it is appropriate to reinstate hydro and geothermal in that definition, and that is what the bill does. We need to look at this in relation to the review that is going on at the moment of section 62 of the Electricity Industry Reform Act, which ends the requirement to supply rural areas in 2013. That review is going on at the moment, and we need to make sure that this decentralised and distributed generation is able to fill that gap. We want some certainty now that companies wanting to invest in renewables in their local community will be able to do so and will be able to engage with the market in a fully competitive and effective manner, and will not be trying to do so with one hand tied behind their back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe still have not dealt, though, with the question of the generators/retailers monopolies. We still have very, very large industries making very, very large profits, and shortly they will make larger profits still when the emissions trading scheme comes in. Three of them are owned by the Government and one of them is not. They are able to exert considerable monopoly power because they combine generation and retailing. That is something that has still not been addressed, and I suspect that when this legislation comes back to the House for a further look sometime in the future, that is the thing we will be looking at. The Greens will be supporting the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022750595b64bf642bebbc797e37dcd6c9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022750595b64bf642bebbc797e37dcd6c9e\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare. Earlier this year the M\u0101ori Party caucus had the opportunity to meet with the Aotearoa Wave and Tidal Energy Association. It was a most instructive hui, where we were told that, given Aotearoa\u2019s likely energy demands over the next 10 years, we needed to be creating a larger renewable energy \u201Cpipeline\u201D now. The association reckons that wave and tidal power solutions, or \u201Cblue energy\u201D, could start contributing to the country\u2019s power supply within the next 5 to 10 years, and eventually meet up to 20 percent of the nation\u2019s energy demands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI was reminded of that meeting and the association\u2019s passion for tidal energy as I worked on my speech for the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill tonight, because the association also felt that marine energy technologies were on the cusp of commercial development, and that we should be capitalising on our world-class wave and tidal resources to test home-grown and overseas designs. So we urge energy leaders in Aotearoa to catch this wave of innovation if we are to optimise energy generation from renewable sources. The M\u0101ori Party has often raised in this House the need to confront the twin crises of peak oil and climate change. Indeed, just last week I issued a press release reiterating the call we made back in 2005, and oft times since, for the need for a cross-party parliamentary commission on peak oil. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EEveryone knows too that the link between oil consumption and climate change is a priority issue for everyone in this House. So we again repeat the call for broad-ranging options to serve our future power demands, and to invest in new power generation options: blue energy, hydro, wind, geothermal, or whatever\u2014just let us give it a go. We support the change to the definition of \u201Cnew renewables\u201D so that lines businesses can invest in all renewables, including hydro and geothermal, which had previously been excluded. We are well aware of the positive contribution that efficient geothermal generation can make to reducing carbon emissions. The New Zealand Council for Infrastructure Development tells us, for example, that efficient gas-fired power generation in and around Auckland could replace our dependence on Huntly coal, as well as reduce pressure on transmission capacity into the region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt is very timely that geothermal generation is included in this broader definition of renewables, because just yesterday I was referring to the work of the Tuar\u014Dpaki Trust, which has just granted a 30-year licence to the Tuaropaki Power Company to generate power from its geothermal fields until 2027. We note that this bill also proposes to make it easier for lines businesses that carry electricity produced by others to sell the output of that part of the generation they carry, thereby encouraging them, and others, to invest further and, hopefully, in renewable energy generation. Just a small but necessary word of caution, though. We would hope that any such investment would include fair and just negotiations for those hap\u016B and iwi within whose territories those resources lie. On another level, this bill also proposes to narrow the scope of ownership separation requirements so that where lines and supply are not collocated, line businesses can be involved in both generation and retail, again, to encourage more market investment in renewable energy generation and development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn closing, then, we can again raise the critical importance of our whole nation preparing to deal with a pending energy crisis and we challenge all sectors of our economy and the wider community to utilise our limited natural resources in a sustainable, environmentally considerate manner so that all citizens of Aotearoa New Zealand can have access to affordable energy resources in a world of ever-increasing energy shortages and rising prices. Whatever our future might involve, it must include efficient management of electricity, and the M\u0101ori Party will be supporting the promotion of a range of strategies as part of those solutions. These include: the investigation of net metering and the viability of compulsory solar water heating in all new homes and buildings; the investigation of passive solar design as mandatory in all new dwellings; the retrofitting of all Government buildings with solar water heating and renewable energy power supplies where possible; tax breaks for approved passive solar, new and retrofitted design, buildings; and tax breaks for insulating, solar heating, and energy-efficient dwellings, businesses, and vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe look forward to discussing these and a whole range of other proposals as submitters come through the select committee process in relation to this Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. Accordingly, the M\u0101ori Party will be supporting the bill at this reading. Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00228967a4df8e6c40e4b3b4a2c500b0df85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228967a4df8e6c40e4b3b4a2c500b0df85\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I do not do regrets, but if I did they would be that I had to sit and suffer on the select committee, which I was on with Jeanette Fitzsimons and others, that had to deal with the botch-up of the Max Bradford reforms back around 1997-98. The classic comment that Max Bradford summarised, in a short sentence, was: \u201CAs a result of these reforms, power prices will come down.\u201D It was a very clear statement. I remember it; it was on the telly. He was asked: \u201CMr Bradford, what do you expect as a result of these reforms?\u201D. \u201COh,\u201D said Max Bradford, \u201Cpower prices will come down.\u201D In fact, power prices went up. That was what happened. That was the problem with those reforms. As a result of that, Max Bradford lost Rotorua, his seat, and, of course, the National Government lost power in 1999. If members will excuse the pun, the National Government ran out of power as a result of those power reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWe sat in that select committee night after night, trying to get at what the reforms were supposed to do. The Government said that the issue was about getting rid of cross-subsidisation. Of course, there are a number of ways to deal with cross-subsidisation. Functional operational separation, for example, is one way to deal with it, and we are dealing with that in the telecommunications legislation. But, you see, the reforms were about ideology. They had nothing to do with reforming the electricity sector, trying to improve the cost of electricity, or trying to provide better services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247894f8fa7404e7197fd11ff33ab3156\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Looking after their mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b9f42cf76c41bfa20cb4374e2a8bdc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It was. It was about National\u2019s mates. Which people suffered? The elderly and people on fixed and low incomes. They are the ones who paid the price for Max Bradford\u2019s electricity reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI recall what happened in the Hutt Valley. There was a sudden surge in privatisation, and shares were given out. Everyone got 1,000 shares, if members remember that. Of course, what happened was that low-income people\u2014beneficiaries and people who had debt\u2014took $800 instead of $1,000 because they needed the money to pay debt off with. Suddenly those people were disenfranchised. They had no ability to influence the power company, and they had no dividends as a result of selling their shares off for $800. The power price went up. So the people who could stick their shares in the bottom of the drawer, the ones who could afford to do that\u2014people on decent incomes\u2014sat on their shares. They were blue-chip stocks, and as a result the prices rose. The people on low incomes, once again, paid for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThen there was the great theory that electricity was a perfect market, and that if people did not like the energy company they were with, they could swap companies. Do members remember that? There was to be the great switch. The problem was that when customers rang to say they did not like a company and were going to swap to someone else, they did not hear back for 6 months. They never heard back. Then suddenly people ended up with power bills 9 months later, and when they did want to switch and swap companies, the companies said that yes, they realised people could do that, but it was all very difficult. The companies said they did not have the technology and were not ready for that. So the perfect market in which consumers were able to swap and switch companies was completely nonsensical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWhat happened with regard to the meters? In the end the select committee said that the issue of the meters was too hard. The select committee members said they did not really know what to do about them, so things should just be left the way they were. The great theory was that new meters would start to be used and people would be able to tell straight away whether they were spending too much on electricity. The meter industry was all revved up. The silly old thing stuck on the side of my house is still there. What happened to the new flash thing that was to go above the bench top? It did not come. So that was a total fiasco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ENow I see Max Bradford is travelling the world as an international consultant\u2014yes, he is\u2014on behalf of the World Bank. Do members know what for? Electricity reform! Can members believe that? I say to the World Bank that it should look at the 1998 reforms and see whether it can get its money back, because the people of New Zealand certainly have not succeeded in doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EPeople have outlined the nature of this bill. I think it is a good bill. This is not the last time we will have to come back and fix the botch-ups of Max Bradford\u2014I am sure it is not. As Jeanette Fitzsimons outlined quite clearly, the bill involves three policy changes. The first makes it easier for owners with lines businesses to sell the output of the generation they were permitted to own under the 2001 and 2004 amendment Acts\u2014that is, for people to be able to hedge and to sell at times when there are problems with, for example, wind power. The second change is to allow the owners of lines businesses to be able to be involved in generation and retailing without limit outside their lines area. That was restricted before. And the third one is to define renewables, which is a really good thing, too, given the issues now around climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESo here we are again, under urgency, in the dead of night, ramming through legislation to fix the botch-up\u2014the muck-up, the mess-up\u2014of the Max Bradford \u201Cpower prices will come down\u201D reforms of 1998. As I say, if I ever get to heaven and I am standing there, and there is some discussion about whether I should go in or go downstairs, I will say I sat on that select committee\u2014I sat on that thing, and I had to put up with about a year of listening to ideological nonsense about electricity reform in New Zealand. I am hoping that St Peter will say \u201CCome forward, my son; you have done your time on Earth.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dc7685a14304de1a44cda4d8d002eea\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c468aab8c41f4eb59703f5013843f20d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022991c10ce3aaa42c2abac88930feaaf78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022991c10ce3aaa42c2abac88930feaaf78\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Customs: I move, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill deals with three aspects of customs work. It will enhance the current statutory appeal and review rights in relation to the forfeiture and seizure regime, provide greater flexibility for the New Zealand Customs Service to deal with ad hoc arrivals and departures from our shores, and strengthen the service\u2019s ability to deal with the illegal manufacture of tobacco. It also makes minor technical amendments to clarify certain provisions in the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe first major change relates to the appeal process about forfeiture of goods. The forfeiture regime is a whole-of-Government mechanism that the Customs Service enforces in its own right and also on behalf of approximately 15 other Government agencies with border-related interests. The regime is a strong one, and it needs to be, in order to encourage people to comply with New Zealand\u2019s laws and to deter people from attempting to evade New Zealand\u2019s legitimate revenue-gathering activities or to breach its borders by importing or exporting restricted goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EA recent Law Commission report reviewed the forfeiture appeals regime, and suggested it could be reformed to be simpler and to provide greater transparency and better access to justice. It also recognises that where people want to claim back an interest in forfeited goods, the process should be low-cost and speedy, and should be able to be dealt with by the Customs Service in the first instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ETo simplify the process, the bill proposes replacing the existing system with an internal review process with the right to appeal to the independent Customs Appeal Authority. There will be a single point of entry to the appeal process, via the Customs Service chief executive, which will cost the applicant nothing and will enable matters to be dealt with speedily. The amendments will streamline customs processes and provide a greater level of transparency and protection for innocent third parties. We thank the Law Commission for the work that it has done in reviewing the current customs forfeiture legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe second major change relates to the arrival and departure of craft at places outside the main entry points to New Zealand. Currently, the Customs and Excise Act requires that craft arrive and depart within a designated customs-place, except for where emergencies or weather conditions dictate otherwise. This could be unnecessarily restricting in some circumstances. The proposal seeks to allow the chief executive to grant reasonable, one-off requests to land outside official customs points of entry, on a case by case basis, where that is considered appropriate. The proposed amendment responds to a public need and supports both regional and economic development and a thriving tourism industry\u2014for example, by allowing charter flights to land at smaller airports without compromising border security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe third major proposal in the bill relates to the management of domestic tobacco production. The current regime for controlling the manufacture of tobacco products makes it illegal to manufacture tobacco products outside a licensed Customs Service - controlled area. There is an exemption that allows the manufacture of tobacco products for personal use without a customs licence. It is proposed to add conditions to this exemption to provide more flexibility and clarity about the regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EWe are also proposing to increase the penalties associated with dealing in illegally manufactured tobacco products. The bill is particularly concerned about the undesirable health and social consequences that stem from the illegal manufacture of tobacco products. These include making tobacco products available at low cost, which encourages higher consumption levels with the associated health impacts. The illegal manufacture of tobacco products also reduces the amount of excise duty the Government collects. Increased penalties will provide a greater disincentive for people to abuse the personal use exemption, and will signal how seriously the Government regards the illegal supply of tobacco products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EFinally, there are some minor technical amendments to the Act contained in the bill. A change to section 209(1A), under clause 9, clarifies that this offence provision involves an element of knowledge. A change to section 148B, under clause 7, corrects a drafting error, and a change to section 288(1)(a), under clause 15, includes \u201Coutward reports\u201D that were omitted when the Act was last amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I tell the House that the bill has been carefully drafted to strike a balance between the need to protect our communities and the rights of individuals. It will allow greater flexibility of customs processes, and facilitate smoother interactions between the Government and the New Zealand public. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00220aba7a9a4fa84c6892803b756fb295c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aba7a9a4fa84c6892803b756fb295c5\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise tonight on behalf of the National Party in support of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) going to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAs the Minister of Education has just stated, the bill does three things. Each one of those needs to be thoroughly investigated in the select committee, and I am sure that the National members on the committee will do just that. The issues raised in the bill for further discussion are the enhancement of the statutory appeal and review rights in relation to forfeiture and seizure regulations and legislation, the provision of greater flexibility for the Customs Service to deal with ad hoc arrivals and departures, and the remedying of legislative inconsistencies relating to the illegal manufacture of tobacco and other products. On the basis of that, it seems to me that it would be sensible for this bill to be given a thorough investigation in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe issues that need to be properly looked at are the reasons why the Law Commission recommended the changes to the forfeiture and seizure regime. Based on what the Minister said, I understand that the current way people can appeal\u2014the multi-appeal system, as it were, or the two-pronged appeal system\u2014could be costly. It could also cause problems for those who subsequently find that the reasons the Customs Service had for taking that product or material\u2014whatever it was that was forfeited or seized\u2014were no longer relevant. The process that people go through is expensive and can sometimes cause unnecessary and damaging delays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EProbably the best anecdote I have heard so far is the case of some night-vision goggles seized from the Taranaki Rescue Helicopter Trust. The Customs Service was notified that these goggles, which had been bought in good faith from US military surplus, might have been acquired in an illegal way or even stolen. While the US investigation was going on, the Customs Service was obliged to take those goggles back, and there was a potential loss to the trust of $34,000. Over time, it was discovered that they had not been stolen, and the trust found itself in a lengthy process to have the equipment returned to it. That is probably as good an example as I have come across of a situation where the chief executive of the Customs Service should have had the ability to look at where the Customs and Excise Act applied and where the Customs Service was involved, and say: \u201CLook, obviously this has now been resolved. We can now tick this off, and that material or equipment can be returned.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe second area of concern is ad hoc arrivals and departures. Under the proposed legislation, the chief executive will have the ability to decide whether a place not deemed to be a customs place, such as a provincial airport, can be a customs place for the purpose of diverting a medium-sized aircraft coming from an international destination. What needs to be thoroughly investigated in the select committee is whether those airports will be able to cope with things like the biosecurity concerns of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. We could be exposing ourselves to quite a high risk there. Under the bill, the chief executive will have to consult the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry on biosecurity. Given that this will be an ad hoc decision\u2014and probably an eleventh hour decision, because the plane may have been waiting for fog to clear, or whatever the reason may be that the international airport that is a certified customs-place is unavailable\u2014what happens if there are not enough staff on the ground to look at what the airplane is carrying, whether it be passengers, luggage, cargo, or whatever else? That issue needs to be thoroughly looked at in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe third point is the tighter control of exemptions around the harvesting and domestic cultivation of tobacco, and the potential risks not only to health but also for black market\u2014clandestine, call it what you will\u2014underground activity, with the Customs Service not having the ability to charge a fair tax, which has all sorts of ramifications in terms of developing a market. It also has a negative impact on health in that those who are supposedly cultivating this tobacco for their own domestic use may be selling it, and there is no possibility of the State recovering any costs that may flow from that in terms of health care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIn summary, National is in support of the proposal, but\u2014to use the words of my senior colleague Murray McCully, who is a former Minister of Customs\u2014we need to give the tyres a thoroughly good kicking in the select committee to find out exactly what is hidden in the detail of some of this stuff, particularly in terms of the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations and some of the official advice that has been received over the years, and whether the ability of the Minister to intervene in some cases is still the best approach. The select committee is the right place to look at those issues, and for that reason the select committee will give this bill a thoroughly good going-over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022303552a7a8c84287a1e8a13441180452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022303552a7a8c84287a1e8a13441180452\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak at the first reading of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), and I thank the speaker opposite, Shane Ardern, for his support of this bill and for his comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs we have seen, the bill does three things. Firstly, on the recommendation of the Law Commission, the bill changes the appeals system for people after their goods are seized, and it makes the appeal process faster and cheaper for the appellant. So it is a matter of streamlining the system and cutting back on cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003ESecondly, it makes a number of technical amendments to ad hoc arrivals and departures. As the member mentioned, it will deal with ad hoc events, tourist events, and will be of great benefit to those places that are running one-off, ad hoc events. As has been mentioned, the select committee will no doubt look very thoroughly into this legislation to make sure that biosecurity measures are complied with and that it is possible for the appropriate mechanisms to go to those particular ports for those biosecurity measures to take place. We must be particularly careful, when these ad hoc events happen, that they comply with all the usual processes of arrivals and departures, both for people and for any goods they are carrying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThirdly, because of other changes to our tobacco laws, the bill tightens up on the personal use and growing of tobacco, and I note also that there will be increased penalties for those who are dealing illegally with manufactured tobacco products. So the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) is, in some ways, making things easier and is, in other ways, closing up loopholes. Basically, the bill is about technicalities around customs and excise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EWe thank the Minister for bringing these measures before the House, and we trust that once submissions are in, the select committee will make sure there are no inadvertent loopholes and that the new procedures will mean that the Customs Service will be able to get on with its duty. I just want to thank the Customs Service for the work it does. I have just read its latest magazine, and it has been doing an excellent job, particularly around drugs and illegal imports to New Zealand. I take this opportunity to thank the Customs Service staff on behalf of New Zealanders for the work they do in protecting not only our biosecurity but our shores. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac9d5f58e41e4fa2b4b6933799b50ac3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac9d5f58e41e4fa2b4b6933799b50ac3\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party rises to support this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, and we will be most interested in it. I will take what the last speaker, Dianne Yates, said and just focus briefly on one point. It is something for this House to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe have had an exemption in the past for the growing of tobacco for one\u2019s own use. It is something of an anomaly, I guess, because we have the view that it is something that is bad and should be subject to a sin tax, essentially, to drive down the use of tobacco. But we have figured that it is pretty hard to police people who grow a few tobacco plants out the back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e5cd8a31cf42ee8fdcf8f7e291fa93\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not just to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d7b189ac2314a6e987ce7d6eaf8356f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No, but this is the nature of the policy\u2014it is too hard to police people growing a few plants out the back for their own use, and rather than making that a criminal offence, making it illegal, and having the police arrest people who have a few tobacco plants out the back, we will give an exemption for personal use. Now there has been the discovery that people have been growing several tonnes of tobacco ostensibly for their personal use. The Government, understandably, is moving to clamp down and make it clear that the law around tobacco for personal use does not mean one can have tonnes and tonnes, because, with the best will in the world, it is hard to smoke a tonne of tobacco in a year. It is very, very hard to do. So that is quite smart. But I want to explore this idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe bill goes on to state that it will not just clamp down on the growing of multiple tonnes\u2014which, clearly, are for sale, or reward, or quid pro quo\u2014but will also eliminate the personal use exemption for tobacco. I am not sure that is smart. The bill states that we need to do that because the personal exemption is ultra vires. They are a couple of big words, which, I understand, after I checked with people smarter than me, mean that something is outside the law. I have been thinking about this. Is it not this Parliament that makes the law? How can it be that we are passing a law because what Parliament intends is outside it? If it is the will of this Parliament that it is OK for people to grow a bit of tobacco and sit down on their porches and smoke it in their pipes without having to fear the police descending on them, and without having to fear customs and excise legislation penalising them, criminalising them, and taxing them, then surely we can do that, because there cannot be any law more superior than this Parliament\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThis Parliament has to give some thought to whether it is OK to grow tobacco for one\u2019s own personal use. It cannot be the case that the reasoning for doing it is that to allow it is ultra vires. That cannot be right, and I look forward to that explanation in the select committee, though, sadly, I will not be there. But in the Committee of the whole House, I will make that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESecond, I am worried about the Government\u2019s comment that the illegal manufacture of tobacco products also reduces the amount of excise duty the Government collects. Now, that has to be a worry in the context of this bill, because, presumably, the Government is not taxing tobacco to raise money but because of the health concerns we have. In fact, people who smoke complain bitterly that taxing tobacco is just a revenue generating device. In fact, my friend from the M\u0101ori Party made the point that if the Government was serious about dealing to tobacco, then it would prohibit its sale. I ask the member whether it would be manufacture or just sale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b32cb0217d4c4daeb2943c989e20ae\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: The whole lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1a23c265054534b2f1597c4c65870a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The whole lot in New Zealand. But, Hone Harawira tells me, the Government will not do it because it loves the revenue. I thought that cannot be true, but then I read that we have to clamp down on the private growing of tobacco in someone\u2019s backyard because of the revenue implications. I could understand that if we were talking about tonnes and tonnes, but if we think about this, we realise there cannot be that much money if grandad, living as he does in the Marlborough Sounds, grows a bit of tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb2f80b31344913a7acaed78ba0ed18\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Wacky backy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebaa58fc8e104823a8dc396dafee672d\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014tobacco. Is the member casting aspersions on my grandfather? It would be tobacco. He sits on the porch in his 89th year, puffing on his pipe, free of Government interference and happy with the world. I think it is probably a health plus, because such people are out there, hoeing in the sun. They are enjoying themselves, they are getting their benefits, and they are puffing on their pipes once in a blue moon. Are we in this Parliament serious when we say: \u201CNo, no, the police will turn up.\u201D? Are we serious when we say that people cannot have as few as 10 tobacco plants, which, on their birthdays, they roll into a bit of tobacco to smoke in their pipe? Are we seriously saying in this Parliament that doing that should be illegal? I do not think it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn fact, I can go further. Hone Harawira told me that he would not make it illegal for people to grow their own tobacco for their own use. So even the man who raised the issue\u2014and I think it is an important issue to raise\u2014of banning tobacco totally would still allow us to grow a bit for our own use. Yet here we are in Parliament saying that people cannot. What will we do? Will we have the police running around checking on tobacco? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI look across at the Greens. I do not know what their policy is on marijuana, but I do remember the discussion that people should be able to grow marijuana for their own use. Well, why not tobacco? Why not let people grow tobacco? I am looking forward very much to the discussion in the select committee about what the policy towards the growing and use of tobacco for one\u2019s own use should be, because I do like the idea of living in a society where one can do that. I would extend it to other medicinal products as well. People could grow herbs in their backyard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c7461f75674de7b99351d5fa25120e\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: A few poppies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592d8ba94fcf48a8a43a6cfd9ebbe854\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: A few poppies\u2014whoa! Sue Bradford is putting words in my mouth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut why not? This issue about the use of tobacco\u2014growing it in the backyard for one\u2019s own use\u2014is actually a serious issue. I know that Mr Charles Chauvel, being a liberal, being of a legal mind, and being open-minded about these things, will want to know a good reason why New Zealanders living in a free society like this cannot have a few tobacco plants in their backyards to puff in their pipes on their 85th birthdays. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00223148adcff4d0429a8d349fa774f6cdd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223148adcff4d0429a8d349fa774f6cdd6\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take just a short call in respect of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No. 3) and to make a number of small points. The first one is, of course, that what this bill does, and the reason the National Party is going to support it, is that it clarifies law that at the moment is unclear, and it sets about two different courses of action for what is pretty much the same objective. The Law Commission has made a recommendation that the law be clear and concise\u2014and so it should be. People have to live within the law; they need to be able to know where the lines are drawn. This bill aims at simplification in respect of appeal processes for those people who have had items taken from them at the borders and seek to regain control of them. At the moment, they head along a track where they need the Minister\u2019s authority to have those released or need to appeal to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to allow an appeal to go through the chief executive officer of the Customs Service, and then to the appeal authority. Eventually, the second leg of appeal is through the High Court\u2014a court that is used to dealing with those matters and is obviously the final court of appeal for a number of other pieces of legislation that we have to work under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe next thing the bill seeks to do is to establish the authority of the chief executive officer to be able to designate, on a case by case basis, landing places for the entry and exit of people entering and leaving our borders, if they are not traditionally supervised by customs and excise staff. Of course we have to remember that in today\u2019s world we are under greater threat from the incursion of criminal products and processes. Also, as regards border control, there are threats to our biodiversity. So there is a need to guard those very carefully. We have seen incursions from other countries, in recent times, of pests we do not want to have here\u2014both criminal and \u201Cbiodiversical\u201D, if there is such a word. Authorisation can be made in consultation with the police and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Customs Service, the Ministry of Transport, and the Department of Labour, and so it should be. It should be a much simpler and fairer process and it makes good common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe third point, which our friend from the ACT party has recently outlined and debated from a constitutional point of view, is the limitations around the growth and manufacture of tobacco products supposedly for personal use. It may be surprising to people to learn that there is a trade in illicitly grown and manufactured tobacco products. People are taking the opportunity to grow tobacco products on a commercial scale. As an ex-smoker, I wonder why the hell people would even bother, but they do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt will be interesting to see just where the various parties line up in respect of this, because we do have a bill before the House at the moment for the growth of cannabis for personal use in respect of medicinal cannabis. My view is that it would be incredibly hard to control; it would lead to the commercialisation of that little industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI thought that my friend Mr Hide was going to start making a play about how we can move for the growth for personal use of tobacco and then leave off cannabis, but surprisingly he did not head down that track. My response to that is that having worked in some small towns with an absolute plague of cannabis, I am sure we do not want to go there. The ramifications of allowing the growing of cannabis for personal use would be much worse than for tobacco. Also, trying to restrict tobacco use any further than this legislation does is something for which we could never put the lid back on the bottle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ENational will support this bill because in a timely way it makes three significant amendments towards the simplification and the control of parts of New Zealand ways of life and protection that need to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00226d8ea217802f49169fa6afc26d47715c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d8ea217802f49169fa6afc26d47715c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My call will not take very long. I thought Rodney Hide raised an interesting point. Let me suggest that New Zealand First would not for one moment be against Rodney\u2019s 85-year-old father growing the odd tobacco plant so he could put it in his pipe and smoke it on his porch. I would agree with Rodney\u2019s father making his own home brew\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156f285f7c9d4584b0ed0141e5b462d0\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: He does!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f94fb8440d2f49d09e1f19f0321203ea\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225205c3dda37d4e41b1448ffbb7a0f7a8\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Put that in your pipe and smoke it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225092c6a48f2f4984a97a1ec2c11e05f1\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I say, in fairness to Rodney, that he raised an interesting point. That is not what the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) is about, and that is not, as I see it, what the customs and excise people are about. I think he raised an interesting point. Should there be an allowance for elderly people to grow tobacco for their own pipes? Maybe Rodney will agree that if they have the golden age card and they are unemployed, they should be able to grow a bit of tobacco in their backyards. Is that a reasonable way of putting it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa404a1a36c64b669d702460daf0907f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Can we hold you to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec20b2d95d634c428947ef1a6f3daeb4\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member will get my vote on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is on record as wanting tighter and firmer border controls. By that I mean tighter controls on people, goods, and everything that comes and goes across our borders. We have pushed for the Immigration Bill, which is going in the right direction, and when that comes back to the House some time in the new year we hope we will have tighter controls on the people who come here, in terms of the reasons they can come here, how they get visas, and what have you. We support the Customs Service having tougher controls on its responsibilities. Those guys do a great job on behalf of this country\u2014often in the middle of the night, often dealing with very awkward customers\u2014and we need to give them all the legislative support we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI will not go into the details of this bill, because it has been well canvassed by the Minister and various other members in this House. New Zealand First will support this bill going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd7d0f9ecd548d881b7ad3b9c3f5525\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd7d0f9ecd548d881b7ad3b9c3f5525\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E It is a huge pleasure for me to speak to the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3). I note that this Government wants to ensure that the processes surrounding forfeiture and seizure are as streamlined and practical as possible. I also note that in 2006 the Law Commission recommended that the current system, which allows people to appeal after their goods are seized, be changed to make the appeal process faster and cheaper for appellants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI also note that the New Zealand Customs Service has the very difficult job of balancing the needs of trade and tourism with the need to ensure that our borders are secure and our people are protected from harm. Managing that balance, which is sometimes tricky, sees the service working both to facilitate the movement of people, craft, and goods across the border, and to enforce the laws that ensure that illicit goods or people do not enter or leave New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI take the opportunity in this first reading to pay a great compliment to the Minister of Customs, my Hamilton colleague Nanaia Mahuta. I want to say what a very hard-working, good Hamilton member the MP for Tainui is, and what really good work she has done since she assumed this portfolio. This bill is just another example of Nanaia Mahuta\u2019s very hard work. I know that all Hamilton and Waikato members of Parliament, irrespective of their political affiliation, support me in that. I have heard great praise from across the political spectrum for her excellent work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to acknowledge, in the context of border security, is the wonderful men and women of the New Zealand Customs Service and our border control agencies. I note particularly the very, very good work done by the Customs Service in the Hamilton-Waikato area. The Waikato is emerging as a major inland port in the context of the Fonterra operation at the Te Rapa rail marshalling yard. That is a huge boost to rail. The number of containers that go out of there to the ports of Tauranga and Auckland means that many, many trucks are now coming off the road. That yard is a jewel in Hamilton\u2019s crown, and I acknowledge the role of the Customs Service in terms of some of the processing that it does there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAlso, just the other day it was my pleasure to be present, along with my good colleague Sue Moroney, at the opening of the new Hamilton International Airport terminal, which has customs clearance facilities. It was wonderful that that terminal was opened by the Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa39759006044164b18fadd5c9c91873\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: David Bennett was there!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8f4b828f7cb457d91de7a217b218d70\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sadly, he was not. I think Lindsay Tisch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd3b276883444148c768fade47158e8\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Lindsay Tisch was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf70eff63fa4e05b815c5cea64f9563\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Piako was there. I know that David Bennett wanted to be there, but I suspect that, ten to one, the whips on his side of the House did not have the vision and the wit to give him leave to attend that very, very important occasion. Our whips had huge vision; the Government whips allowed two members of Parliament leave to be there with the Prime Minister. Those whips showed some strategic thinking and recognition of the importance of the opening of that major airport terminal and customs facility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to focus, in the context of this first reading speech on this bill, on how important an airport such as the Hamilton International Airport is in terms of the customs process and clearance. I want to observe and acknowledge that it is a very good example of local authorities working together. The five key local authorities in the central Waikato area are shareholders in the airport. It is a case of collaboration, of their working together with agencies such as the Customs Service, which does a very important job. Balancing the needs of trade and tourism with the need to ensure that our borders are secure and our people are protected from harm is a matter of facilitation of both the people and the goods that come through an airport such as the Hamilton International Airport. Obviously, we are very encouraging of further international flights there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EWe should bear in mind that this wonderful development happened under this Government and in the economic climate that this Government has created. I certainly acknowledge the member opposite Richard Worth for his huge support of it. I suspect he feels a degree of envy for the development that has taken place in Hamilton. He will know the huge pleasure I have, along with Sue Moroney and others, in representing this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EFinally, I also compliment previous speakers on their very interesting contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn terms of some of the detail of the bill, I note that, currently, when there is a dispute the appellants can appeal to the District Court or to the Minister of Customs. The bill replaces that dual system with an internal review process, with a right of appeal to the customs appeal authority. That creates a cheaper and more expeditious review process. Again, some processes are being streamlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI also want to say that, as a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, I am really looking forward to doing a lot of good, hard work on this bill, as is my good colleague Dianne Yates, who is a very, very good chair of that committee. [Interruption] I think Palmerston North has a very good operation, but I know that Simon Power, in his heart of hearts, will share a degree of envy of the wonderful Hamilton International Airport terminal in the Waikato, which our good Prime Minister opened recently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EWithout further ado, I commend the first reading of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00221aa6d64307d84a2c9a3eca2981e81d1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221aa6d64307d84a2c9a3eca2981e81d1e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. Kia ora t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Every Tuesday morning and every Thursday night I depart from and arrive at a place that is not \u201Ca Customs place\u201D, but that may well be in the near future. Rotorua Regional Airport certainly has plans in the pipeline to enter into the running to be an airport that will be designated as a customs place. That is, of course, dependent on the strength of the consultation with the affected community, and in particular in our case with an iwi called Ng\u0101ti Uenukuk\u014Dpako. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Uenukuk\u014Dpako has in fact lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission, claiming that the Rotorua District Council has prejudiced the iwi by failing to offer it the same or similar redress that the council has extended to other people situated within the same noise-impacted areas identified by the council. The dispute centres on the way that consultation has occurred on the proposal to extend the runway at Rotorua Regional Airport\u2014a proposal that would place Rotorua firmly in the queue for the establishment of an international airport. So I am interested in the amendments in this Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) in respect of the arrival of aircraft that may land at Rotorua for both commercial and recreational purposes and require customs services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill will enable a process to occur by which, as others have mentioned, the chief executive of the Customs Service could designate Rotorua Regional Airport as a customs place, with the understanding, of course, that all of those agencies that have an interest in border control would also enable such a process to occur. It makes it easier for agencies like the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Ministry of Health, Maritime New Zealand, and others with an interest to be involved in the process of assessing an airport or a port\u2019s eligibility to approve ad hoc arrivals and departures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFrom another angle, this bill also provides clarification around the personal use exemption for manufacturing tobacco and strengthens the penalty regime in respect of unlawfully manufactured tobacco, as has been discussed by other members this evening. As the House will know, we in the M\u0101ori Party, and in particular my fine colleague from the north, Hone Harawira, have placed priority on our campaign to get tobacco out of Aotearoa. The Tobacco out of Aotearoa, or \u201CTOA\u201D, campaign encourages tangata whenua to work towards their auahi koretanga\u2014to be smoke-free and proud. Our strategy has included the promotion of marae that seek to make their tribal womb totally smoke-free. We have also spoken out about other initiatives, such as the proposal from the Cancer Society and Action on Smoking and Health to ban visible cigarette displays. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAgain, in May of this year my fine upstanding colleague and good friend Mr Harawira launched the Black Rock Awards for contributions towards making Aotearoa smoke-free. Recipients this year included Brendon P\u014Dngia, the Warriors, the Motion Picture Association of America, and smoke-free workers. It is entirely consistent with our Tobacco out of Aotearoa strategy to support the amendments in this bill that place controls on the manufacture of tobacco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI want also to mihi to all of the auahi kore champions across Aotearoa, such as Mr Mahara Okeroa, who are doing their best to reduce the use of tobacco, whether it is manufactured legally or illegally. I refer to things like the smoke-free h\u012Bkoi that was organised this year around the lakefront at Rotorua by Te Papa T\u0101karo o Te Arawa, Te Whare Hauora o Ngongotah\u0101, Korowai Aroha, and Tipu Ora M\u0101ori providers to acknowledge World Smokefree Day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill builds on all of those efforts to stamp out a product that clearly does much injury to our health, our economic stability, our social well-being, and our future. We hope that the measures mooted in this bill will provide a strong disincentive to the illegal manufacture or use of tobacco. We know too well the toll that tobacco has on our people, and we want to be clear that our support for this bill is aligned with our strategy to make Aotearoa tobacco smoke - free. But we are, however, puzzled that although the bill puts in place mechanisms to address the issue of illegally manufactured tobacco products, it still allows individuals who wish to cultivate and manufacture small quantities of tobacco for their own consumption to do so, as Mr Hide has alluded to. I cannot quite see the logic of that, myself. Surely it is either illegal or it is not. Surely some tests will be carried out to ascertain whether the small quantity of tobacco is actually for personal use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to touch on the appeal and review rights under the statutory forfeiture and seizure regime. We note that the Law Commission has recommended that the current appeals system should be replaced with another process that provides for a cheap and speedy internal review process. In its report the Law Commission had highlighted concerns about a dual system of appeal to a court and a ministerial review. But there is also another report by the Law Commission that might be relevant to further discussion on the bill. The president of the Law Commission, the Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Palmer, said: \u201CThe law on search and surveillance in New Zealand is a mess. The rule of law in our society depends upon having certain and principled law enforcement powers. New Zealand does not currently have that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs I understand it, the report of the Law Commission into search and surveillance was a massive report of some 500 pages, with 300 recommendations, that took the Law Commission 5 years to complete. The Law Commission also found that present-day statutory provisions often contain insufficient safeguards to ensure the rights of innocent citizens are protected. As I understand it, section 21 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act provides the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure. But, as the Law Commission concludes, clear controls on the use of search and surveillance powers by law enforcement officers are necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo although we support the general intentions of this bill and the general progress it makes in controlling the illegal manufacture of tobacco and in opening up other ports or airports that have not been designated as customs places, we leave open the question as to how thoroughly and effectively the forfeiture and seizure regime has dealt with the issues around also protecting the rights of citizens. We look forward to further debate on the bill in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00226797efddae0643269866c319fa547048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226797efddae0643269866c319fa547048\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3). National supports this bill. However, as an assistant spokesperson on the environment, I want to focus on some of the concerns I have about the part of the bill that deals with ad hoc arrivals and departures to and from ports and airports, and how this could affect biosecurity risks. Generally speaking, except for exceptional circumstances such as violent weather or navigation-related issues, all craft arriving at and departing from New Zealand have to access designated customs-places. However, in recent years there has been demand for craft, both commercial and recreational, to arrive at non-designated places. This bill makes it easier for the chief executive officer of the Customs Service to improve ports and airports for arrivals at, and departures from, places that are not usual customs-places, on an ad hoc basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe chief executive officer may approve these places, subject to any conditions that he or she feels are relevant, and in consultation with border control authorities such as the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Ministry of Health, Maritime New Zealand, and any other department of State whose operations may, in the chief executive officer\u2019s opinion, be affected by the granting of an authorisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAlthough National agrees that this provision makes good sense\u2014particularly if we are hoping to minimise the effects of energy use and emissions for transportation\u2014National wants to be assured that these provisions will in no way increase biosecurity risks. New Zealand\u2019s isolated geological history, our unique flora and fauna, and our economic dependence on primary industries mean that we are particularly vulnerable to pests, weeds, and diseases from overseas. The social and economic consequences of biosecurity breaches are huge. Didymo, which is already destroying our beautiful mountain rivers, is expected to cost $285 million, and the varroa bee mite, which has infested hives throughout the North Island and is beginning to enter the South Island, will cost $661 million. A foot-and-mouth outbreak could be disastrous for our country and could cost up to $10 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ERight now, under the designated customs-places policy, with limited entry points, barely a week goes by without a biosecurity breach. There have been 227 incursions in the last 5 years. As I come from the South Island, didymo is one of the ones that upsets me. When we see the streams of toilet paper - like growths in our once pristine southern rivers, it breaks our hearts. It is suspected that didymo was introduced by overseas fishermen who carried the infestation in their waders. Those are the types of people who may like to fly to a non-designated airport for recreational reasons, and unless the chief executive officer of the Customs Service is extremely well organised and diligent, they could well pose an increased biosecurity risk to our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ESimilarly, New Zealand is under threat from marine infestations, with 150 non-indigenous marine species now identified in New Zealand waters. Although they are mostly benign, recent infestations such as seaweed, Undaria, and the sea squirt are a serious threat to our marine environment. I would like to be assured by the chief executive officer of the Customs Service that he is well aware of these dangers of further infestations. New Zealand waters are at present free of many of the world\u2019s most renowned marine pests, and we must ensure that that continues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say that National supports the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, but with a plea that the issues concerning the management of biosecurity and health risks around the use of non - customs-places\u2014ports and airports\u2014can be well canvassed and vigorously debated. Our country and its water are at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce4fb20508dc4a25ad284f417bf4736c\u0022\u003EFinancial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294275ae334ab40c7b218b7519125e3c1\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2cdd2ebae114abbb87343f71000975e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2cdd2ebae114abbb87343f71000975e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill be now read a first time. It is my intention that the bill will be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAs the title indicates, the bill sets up a registration system for financial service providers, and establishes a requirement that they all belong to an industry-based approved dispute resolution system, to improve consumer access to redress in the financial sector. It is the second bill arising from the Review of Financial Products and Providers that we have dealt with in this final sitting of the year. I am aware that such bills would normally be referred to the Commerce Committee. However, the first of these bills was an amendment to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, and it makes sense that these other bills go to the same committee that dealt with that bill. That committee is under the very able chairmanship of my colleague Charles Chauvel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe new registration system will identify for the first time all entities providing financial services in the New Zealand market\u2014in fact, I find it rather extraordinary that we do not have a single register that is able to identify all such entities at this stage. This will assist all relevant regulatory authorities to both monitor and enforce the law, and enable sectoral data to be collected. It will allow more effective monitoring and evaluation of financial service providers, including facilitating effective coordination and information-sharing between financial sector regulatory authorities so that the requirements on firms are streamlined. The establishment of such a register will provide easy access to information about financial service providers. Having a register will enable New Zealand to meet specific anti - money-laundering obligations under the Financial Action Task Force, or FATF as it is referred to\u2014the particular recommendations that it has made\u2014and it will ensure that the controlling owners, directors, and senior managers of financial service providers do not have certain criminal convictions, are not bankrupt, and are not the subject of a management ban under companies, securities, or consumer legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill covers a wide range of entities, including banks, building societies, credit unions, managed funds, securities issuers, money transfer services, finance companies, credit providers, foreign currency exchanges, and insurers. The definitions are intended to be as broad as they can possibly be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe register will be operated by the Companies Office. The Companies Office has been consistently assessed by the Business New Zealand - KPMG survey as the most helpful Government department in New Zealand. It provides a world-class service, with efficient and user-friendly processes to help reduce compliance costs for business. This bill leverages off that expertise and capability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EVirtually all financial service providers are companies or entities that are already required to register with, or provide information to, the Companies Office. Giving the Companies Office the function of registering financial service providers means that efficiencies will be gained, and that compliance costs will be minimised for businesses, which will have to deal with only one registration body. There will not be duplication of requirements to provide registration information. For consumers, it will mean that there is one easily accessible point for information on financial service providers. For example, a consumer could find information about a financial service provider\u2014such as its constitution, trust deeds, prospectuses, and other disclosure documents; details of senior management; and financial reports\u2014all from a single online source. The registration function will be separate from any other merit licensing or qualitative fit and proper tests that the relevant financial sector regulator will carry out. But all information on the financial services provider will be accessible, making it a comprehensive database of information on a provider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe registrar of financial service providers will undertake enforcement functions in relation to breaches of the registration requirements, and will have the power to share information with the Securities Commission, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, and other prescribed agencies that carry out supervisory and enforcement functions relating to money-laundering or terrorist financing\u2014for example, the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes access to a comprehensive, industry-based dispute resolution system to improve consumer access to redress in the financial sector. Effective dispute resolution and redress mechanisms are essential to encourage consumers to participate in financial markets and to promote market discipline for financial providers. Existing voluntary, industry-based dispute resolution schemes, such as the Banking Ombudsman, and the Insurance and Savings Ombudsman, already provide effective access to redress for consumers. However, they do not currently extend to building societies, credit unions, finance companies, financial advisers, and some superannuation schemes. This bill will not see those schemes replaced. In fact, some of the existing schemes may expand their coverage, and others will model themselves on the existing schemes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMembership of an approved dispute resolution scheme will be mandatory for financial service providers that transact with consumers. Consumers in this context include small to medium sized enterprises. I think that is a considerable advance in consumer protection; it recognises that small businesses can be as vulnerable as natural persons. Dispute resolution schemes will be approved by the Minister of Commerce if the schemes meet the principles of accessibility, independence, fairness, accountability, efficiency, and effectiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would like to extend my thanks to the industry participants who contributed to this bill through the consultation process, and to the officials for all their hard work. I am pleased that the parties in this House have agreed to facilitate the referral of this bill to the select committee. I look forward to seeing the committee look carefully at the detail of the bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7c59999b6af41808a7ca679fe46ce9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7c59999b6af41808a7ca679fe46ce9a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E We are now in the thick of urgency, and the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill being referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee requires some careful attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI start by complimenting the Minister of Commerce, Lianne Dalziel, on her handling of this particular legislation. I do that in a genuine way, because when the Minister set out on this particular course of action off the back of the Government\u2019s Review of Financial Products and Providers, she did so using a level of language and rhetoric that was appropriate. She consulted widely in the industry. She kept the issue relatively low profile. She did not take the opportunity in recent months to vilify participants in the industry. She did not, at any time I am aware of, use the opportunity to stand on a platform and have a crack at\u2014to use a colloquial term\u2014the industry she was in the middle of discussions with over some of the regulatory matters before it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis stands in stark contrast to the way her colleague the Hon Clayton Cosgrove dealt with the real estate industry. Let that be a lesson to him. If the language and rhetoric are appropriate, if the industries being dealt with are dealt with with respect, if their views are listened to, if they are quietly consulted, and if the process is seen to be transparent and not political, people get results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill comes off the back of the Government\u2019s Review of Financial Products and Providers, which was designed to promote confidence and participation in financial markets by investors and institutions, and to promote a sound and efficient non-bank financial sector. Since that review process commenced in earnest, we have seen a number of second-tier lenders collapse. What that has meant for some 58,000 individual investments\u2014not investors, but investments\u2014and what the loss of approximately $1.3 billion in investors\u2019 funds has meant is that the magnifying glass has gone on to this process quite significantly. It has taken on a new level of importance in recent months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Minister has been very careful when making public statements about this process. I have listened very, very carefully to the language the Minister has chosen in this area. At the end of just about every press release she has issued on this matter, she has been wise to state that Parliament cannot legislate against risk. Parliament cannot prevent risk. It cannot educate or inform people to the point where it ends up leaving the Government as a co-guarantor, or with some type of vicarious liability, because it has overstretched in informing, regulating, and educating the public, and the public may form a view that that level of involvement by the Government has placed it in a position where it may be seen to act as some type of guarantor for these types of investments. That is not the case and should not be the case; nor should any Government or Parliament attempt to legislate for risk. However, a suite of bills is currently before the House\u2014one in particular is about to come. Amendments to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, the introduction of the prudential supervision regime, the registration bill we are discussing today, and the long-awaited Financial Advisers Bill, which we may or may not see prior to Christmas, form an integral part of that suite of bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI think the entire House and all parties are concerned\u2014and if they are not, they should be\u2014about the quality of advice being offered by financial service providers. This bill creates a registration system for those financial service providers that they will be required to belong to, that will identify them, that will allow better monitoring and evaluation, and that will provide information for consumers. As the Minister said, it is kind of an online one-stop shop source where information\u2014financial statements and the like\u2014will be readily available for those investors and others who have an interest in these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThere is\u2014and I qualify my earlier remarks by saying this\u2014likely to be a cost for this legislation. We on the select committee will be interested to examine the costs to business for this regime, where they will be passed on to, and who will ultimately end up bearing the cost of this regulation. That needs to be carefully examined during the select committee process. The matter of access to consumer credit\u2014a summit was recently chaired or held by the Hon Judith Tizard, I am told\u2014is one we may need to consider in the context of this bill. A particular consideration is whether loan sharks or their equivalent need a similar type of registration system, or whether this registration system could be used as overarching legislation right across the financial provider sector. As the Minister noted in a briefing today, that is a matter for the select committee to discuss. The Minister pointed out in her contribution the issue of whether a person should be placed on the register if a criminal conviction has occurred. That is slightly trickier than we first thought, particularly under the Fair Trading Act, and it is a matter that will require some further examination at the select committee, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAlthough National will be supporting the first reading of this bill and will be looking to play a constructive role during the discussion of this particular suite of bills, let us just say that when we get to the Financial Advisers Bill, either prior to Christmas or early next year, there will still be a number of unresolved issues. The Minister acknowledges that there is still work to be done, but it is fair to say this: we have to start this process in earnest quickly in 2008. This is a big deal for the finance sector. This is a significant suite of legislation that the select committee will be required to deal with. National will come to the table of the select committee with an open mind, to make sure that a cost-effective, efficient system is put in place across these bills to ensure consumer protection without putting Governments in a difficult position, and without crossing the line to pretend to legislate against risk, which, of course, we know is inherent in any investment decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u00225d244a2624ae460e93d712592e759993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d244a2624ae460e93d712592e759993\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In New Zealand at the moment there are registration requirements for some financial providers, such as banks, building societies, and credit unions, and for some products, such as prospectuses, under specific legislation, but the provisions that require these protections are not comprehensive, and they do not identify what financial services a particular entity provides. This situation does not comply with international standards for combating money-laundering and the financing of terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EMembers will be aware that in 2005 the Government announced a review of the regulation of non-bank financial products and providers. The previous speakers referred to this review. The aim of the review was to develop an effective and consistent regulatory framework to promote confidence and participation in sound and efficient financial markets, which are clearly essential as we build prosperity in this country. The review has combined a number of separate reviews of financial products and providers that were planned or already in train. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill implements some aspects of the highest-priority priorities under the review, which are necessary to achieve compliance with international obligations and to better protect consumers. Other aspects of the first stage of the review are being implemented through companion legislation, the Financial Advisers Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes the establishment of a compulsory register of financial service providers. The purposes of the proposed register include identifying the service providers and ensuring that the controlling shareholders, directors, and senior managers are subject to criminal checks to enable members of the public to access information on the products and services provided by the entity, and to provide information about which consumer dispute resolution scheme the entity should belong to. The purposes also include assisting the registrar and other regulators to enforce legislation regulating the financial sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for the Registrar of Financial Service Providers and Financial Advisers to have responsibility for establishing and maintaining the register. The registrar will be the person holding the office of Registrar of Companies\u2014an existing position. That person will undertake enforcement functions in relation to breaches of the registration requirements, and will have the power to share information with the Securities Commission, the Reserve Bank, and other agencies that carry out anti - money-laundering supervisory and enforcement functions, such as the financial intelligence unit of the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes provisions for establishing a comprehensive industry-based consumer dispute resolution system to improve consumer access to redress in the financial sector. The purpose of the dispute resolution system is to provide a simple, low-cost avenue for consumers to seek redress. The dispute resolution system will be fully funded by the industry. Government involvement will be limited to approving schemes, including periodic renewal, receiving periodic reports, and powers of inspection if necessary, rather than involvement in the day-to-day operation of a scheme. The schemes to be set up under the bill are intended to be accessible, independent, fair, accountable, efficient, and effective. I welcome the indication from the Opposition that there will be a commitment to constructive dialogue at the Finance and Expenditure Committee over the details of the bill, and I very much look forward to its consideration in that committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022809e359a70794bf5ad2b594db576ff62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022809e359a70794bf5ad2b594db576ff62\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Simon Power has said, National will support the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill going to a select committee. I guess 2007 will be recalled in history for quite a long time as the year in which we saw a substantial collapse of finance companies here in New Zealand. Mr Power mentioned a $1.3 billion loss, which was largely to smaller investors who will suffer that sort of loss for a long, long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI note that the Government, in this bill and in other bills associated with this legislation, is moving to restore confidence within this particular industry. A lot of investors have been badly hurt, and I would like to note that this is not entirely the Government\u2019s fault. This trend is not unique to New Zealand. It started, in particular, in the United States, with second-tier lenders there under pressure, so there has been a world-wide trend. In many cases it is a loss of confidence that is causing the problems, to the extent that some very well-founded finance companies have been pressured, although not to the point of collapse, because their long-term investors have been scared by some of the horror stories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe package we are discussing in this legislation will be coupled with the Financial Advisers Bill. I note that Charles Chauvel interjected during Mr Power\u2019s speech and said that we will be discussing it on Thursday of next week. Mr Chauvel should know. He is a very, very senior member of the Labour Government. He is the one who welcomed his own appointment as a parliamentary private secretary to the Attorney-General on 1 November this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355c10bced754b779f04cbfa0c9f5744\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How is he going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229ed01dcc5944625a767f12c2939fc35\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I think he is going very well in his role. I must admit that he has not had a huge amount of publicity. He got a lot of publicity when he announced his own appointment, but he has not had not a lot since. But I am sure that Mr Chauvel is indeed in touch with the Attorney-General, who will be well aware of the programme for next week, so he has announced to us today that we are back here not only on Tuesday but, clearly, on Wednesday and Thursday to debate the Financial Advisers Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EOn a more cautious note, I say that any of this legislation must be balanced. The consumer deserves protection, but at the same time any Government initiative to deliver that protection and confidence back into this industry must be very, very carefully balanced, because if it is not done correctly the protective legislation will become both cumbersome and costly. If that happens, it will ultimately be the investors themselves who pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI conclude by echoing the comments made by my colleague Simon Power in congratulating the Minister of Commerce on the way she has worked with the industry to deliver this legislation. I have had the opportunity to speak to a number of people over the last week who certainly welcome the legislation. They feel they have been very adequately consulted and they have been treated with absolute respect. That is in sharp contrast to the response I know Mr Clayton Cosgrove has received from the Real Estate Institute. Mr Cosgrove, if he is listening, should take heed of the way in which his colleague Lianne Dalziel has delivered this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMy final point is one I hope Dr Cullen will consider carefully. This legislation is heading to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I express concern here about the workload we have put on that select committee in the last couple of days. It has received the Reserve Bank legislation and the emissions trading legislation, which in itself, as acknowledged by the Minister, is landmark legislation, more so than we have seen in this House in a long time. Here we are loading the committee again with the Financial Services Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill, and no doubt on Thursday it will get the Financial Advisers Bill as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed82a790b6d430ca89e5952795a3ab4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: On Thursday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f420eeafea2f429a838954bbdb8512a7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: On Thursday of next week. It will be a long, long week but the Opposition is up to it. We have enjoyed the last couple of days and we are looking forward to coming back on Tuesday to continue the debate for the rest of the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5bbda9469b248a398695bf36a0863ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5bbda9469b248a398695bf36a0863ba\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill and to say that this bill has in common with the Real Estate Agents Bill that one of its purposes is to try to protect small investors. I was not in the Chamber at the time, but I certainly hope that the Opposition supported the first reading of the Real Estate Agents Bill. [Interruption] I hope that it did support that very important bill. Dr Cullen says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c796d1578c4f457bae72d5c67df0a735\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when the whole industry has been vilified?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4ea17f17040465eb3ccb81748bd966f\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: To be honest, I am staggered and surprised to learn that it did not. The issue addressed in that bill relates to this bill in the sense that the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, who is a very, very good Minister, wants to protect the consumer\u2014the ordinary person\u2014who wants to get a fair shake, and that is also the case with regard to this bill. Frankly, yes, I will concede that the Hon Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s style can be robust, but it is a robustness on behalf of the ordinary little people in this country who want to have a fair shake, and he is to be strongly commended for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EWe talked before, in relation to other legislation previously in front of the House in terms of the buy-out of minority shareholders, about having an environment that protects small investors, whether they are investing in their own home or a rental property or are lending their hard-earned money to financial providers. I acknowledge that Simon Power certainly illustrated the huge impact on our economy of the collapse of various finance companies and how mum and dad shareholders, and particularly older investors, have been swept up in that. Any legislation, be it the Real Estate Agents Bill\u2014which seems to me to be a pretty good bill, and I am shocked and staggered to have to absorb the information that the Opposition did not support its first reading\u2014or any other bill that helps to protect the small investor is to be commended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill contributes to the aim of our Government\u2019s major reform programme of promoting confidence and participation in the financial markets by investors and institutions, no matter how big or how small they may be. The Government also wants to promote a sound and efficient non-banking financial sector, which again is very important in terms of international investment in our economy. I note that the bill sets up a registration system for financial service providers and establishes an industry-based dispute resolution system to improve consumer access to redress in the financial sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will not take too long a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213fded0b02ad4fbf9b61bb6dbbc0134b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, go for it; there\u2019s no rush.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ef9a813474425c9ce9c26c82e7816b\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: There we go, the Minister is encouraging me to take a longer call, but I will not take very long except to say that I note the bill will set up a registration system for financial service providers that will identify all entities providing financial services in the New Zealand market. As well, it establishes a comprehensive industry-based dispute resolution system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe registration system set up by this bill will assist the relevant regulatory authorities to monitor and enforce the law and enable sectoral data to be collected. That is a good thing. The register will provide easy access to information about financial service providers to investors and institutions who seek to utilise them, and that is another good thing. At present it can be very costly for investors to seek information on the products provided by the various financial service providers. This bill will allow investors to be well informed in their investment decisions. It does not matter whether one is a large investor or a small investor; that is obviously a very, very important thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe dispute resolution system will improve customer access to redress in the financial sector. I notice also that the dispute resolution in this bill will be industry-based, providing an effective alternative to court action. That is a positive thing. Indeed, the involvement of industry participants in the operation of the dispute resolution body encourages the adoption of customer service - oriented attitudes. Reflecting on previous speakers, I think it has been extremely sobering to read in the media of the collapse of various finance institutions, and the terrible, devastating impact that has had on life savings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI hope, obviously, there will be a wide cross-section of submissions to the Finance and Expenditure Committee on this bill. I commend the chair of that committee, Mr Charles Chauvel. I think he is making a very, very good contribution. He is certainly a very hard-working member of our team. As I said before, I see this particular bill very much in the context of other legislation that has been introduced over the last day or two, including the Real Estate Agents Bill. I have to say I am still trying to come to terms with the fact that the Opposition, for reasons totally lost to me, is not supporting that particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI commend the first reading of this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00225adaaf89b2b54d928c9891e1d7f5da55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225adaaf89b2b54d928c9891e1d7f5da55\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will take an exceedingly short call. We are talking about an industry, a segment of New Zealand society, that is causing huge concern for the general public of this country\u2014huge concern. Simon Power advised the House of the figure that investors have lost in recent times\u2014something like $1.3 billion. Although it is something like $1.3 billion, we have turned this debate into an argument over whether Clayton Cosgrove has handled the Real Estate Agents Bill as well as he should have. The National Party members should have supported the Real Estate Agents Bill and got over their problem of dealing with the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBut some of the goings-on in this industry have to see the light of day. Organisations\u2014and I do not know whether I should name them\u2014are engaging so-called independent financial advisers on a commission basis, knowing that they are no longer independent. These financial advisers go out to sell the product of a particular organisation, and, to put it bluntly, speak bullshit to the individual members of the public, because they sell on the basis of maximising their commission, rather than trying to get the best and safest return for the individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI invite members of the House to put themselves in the position of mature adults who have just lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, because that is what has happened. I know we cannot legislate against risk, but we can legislate to ensure that the playing field is level, that people fully understand the level of risk they are getting involved in, and that the risk is minimised to the degree that they want. If people want to go for a high interest rate, they must be aware that they are taking on a higher risk than if they played it safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe know that many of these financial service providers invested in second-hand cars and dubious overseas land and property deals. But the average investor did not know where his or her money was going. A second-hand car loses its value the day it is driven out of the car yard. It goes down X percent. So the valuation of the asset goes down, but the return that the company pays to the investor goes up. Well, sooner or later the guy who pays out the 10 or 15 percent interest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022449a2774cc3e4810a64dce7729bfe397\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: They are trying to assist, and this member has been asking questions about why it should go ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266194606438c4d06be48543408a2535d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I did not quite catch that, but I am interested. The point is that when an asset goes down and costs go up, sooner or later the ends of the problem meet and something goes belly up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe have seen another financial service provider advertise its service by using a very, very famous and well-respected rugby player on the front of its advertisements. I know people who have invested in that organisation because of that rugby player. I do not know the rugby player at all; I have never met him, but I have a high regard for his past ability on the rugby field. If he wanted to give me advice on rugby, I would say yes, and I would bow to it. If he wanted to give me advice on farming, I would respect it. But, with due respect to the individual, I would not respect his advice on financial matters. But that is the way financial services are being sold. Many, many hundreds, if not thousands, of people in New Zealand thought: \u201CThis guy\u2019s on the front; it must be good.\u201D, and now those people have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill is essential. I will not go into the details, because my honourable colleague Martin Gallagher, who has just resumed his seat, has outlined what the bill is all about, as have previous speakers. I just say that we have to take this issue much more seriously than we appear to be doing tonight. I know that we will knock off early, when we finish this bill, but this is really key stuff for the average New Zealander. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294ee64d4bbaf445393f0a25c57e13d3d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The big one next time\u2014the Financial Advisers Bill; it\u2019s the biggest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022840c2d014310489cbf18b2ef9ddac9ea\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Financial Advisers Bill has to be coupled with the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill, and we have got to get it right. We know we cannot eliminate the risk, and we have to tell the public that that cannot happen, but we have to minimise the risk. We have to make it so transparent that when the public make a decision, they know what that decision is all about, what the risks are, and what could eventuate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am tired, and I guess that everybody is tired, so I will take my seat. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00226f3d8d61aac045f1ac38d1fa7d562f77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f3d8d61aac045f1ac38d1fa7d562f77\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te iwi e noho tonu nei i roto i t\u0113nei Whare o t\u0101tou\u2014special greetings to those of us left here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt seems like just the other day\u2014actually, it might have been just last night\u2014that I was speaking to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3), the companion bill to this Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill. During that debate we talked about a new breed of financial institutions called non-bank deposit takers\u2014building societies, credit unions, and finance companies, or loan sharks as some of them are known. Both this bill and the Reserve Bank bill introduce a new framework to ensure that all such deposit takers are licensed, and to ensure that directors and senior managers are made subject to fit and proper standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe aim of the new framework, of course, is to promote confidence and participation in financial markets by investors and institutions, and to ensure a sound and efficient non-bank financial sector. That is all fine and dandy; this sort of policy change was actually needed some time ago, to tidy up the sector and to make it more accountable to investors and consumers alike. The key problem has been the lack of adequate protections for investors, and, given that more and more people are pulling their money out of finance companies, we need to prepare for more collapses before they occur. Although compliance costs will increase, the changes are needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETighter control is needed over some of the rather shaky, sharky, and shonky financial service providers and advisers whom my constituents tell me have done a lot worse, in terms of defrauding people, than even real estate agents. Talking about that lot, it is worthwhile pointing out one of the flaws in this bill, which is the proposed model of dispute resolution. Although dispute resolution provides a level of consumer protection, it would have been better if the process were not so dominated by industry players as has been the case in the real estate industry, which has led to the Real Estate Agents Bill providing for the dispute process to be administered by the Ministry of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis bill before us also establishes a registration system for financial service providers, to enable easy access to information about providers, and to allow more effective monitoring and evaluation of those providers, as well. This is supposed to ensure certain standards for owners, directors, and senior managers. Although it is great to know that people will not now be allowed to serve in those roles if they have certain criminal convictions, are bankrupt, or are the subject of management bans, history tells us that thieves and crooks come with a range of degrees and titles\u2014particularly the good ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is also very interested in the creation of this new registrar of financial service providers, which will have the power to share information with the Securities Commission, the Reserve Bank, and the police. We will be even more interested to see how it actually rolls out in practice, because the bill as it reads presupposes that the Securities Commission will be active, and we know that it has no great history of being proactive or diligent in enforcing breaches of securities law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFinally, it would be remiss of me to leave the House tonight without noting the high finance company charges that often cripple consumers, and hinder those on low incomes from seeking development loans. I raise the possibility of establishing a M\u0101ori financial institution along the lines of the Grameen Bank, successfully set up in Bangladesh. The Grameen Bank and its founder, Mohammed Yunus, were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006 for placing trust in the skills and capabilities of the community by lending funds for community development. Best described as a microfinance organisation, the Grameen Bank is a community development bank that makes small loans without collateral\u2014no charges, low interest, and high levels of support and controls. Such a bank for M\u0101ori would be well-positioned to lend to those at the low end of the income and assets scale, to help them improve their lot through the funding of enterprise development. In the same way that other major financial institutions are backed by the Government, we suggest that a M\u0101ori bank established along these lines should also be so underwritten, in line with proactive recognition of the Treaty partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn sum, we support the changes to ensure that deposit takers are better monitored and evaluated by the Reserve Bank so as to minimise the shock and ripple effects of financial collapse on families and the economy. We would also encourage wider discussion on the development of a financial institution to fund low-level M\u0101ori development as an idea whose time has surely come. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00226f68692d237c462fb7458907ad57cc1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f68692d237c462fb7458907ad57cc1c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to support the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill, and I hope that next Tuesday we will have the chance to complete the trio with the Financial Advisers Bill, which is still below the line. This is part of an important suite of legislation dealing with issues that have been highlighted by recent events. As both Ms Dalziel and I have explained to the House on a number of occasions, the legislation has actually arisen out of an extensive programme of review of the regulation of the non-banking financial sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIt is important to note that risk is inherent in investment, and it is important that people understand what that risk is and judge that risk against the returns they are getting. We have seen in New Zealand over the last year or so many people chasing a small amount of additional return, people who nearly always have relatively modest amounts of assets. Mr Brown mentioned people losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most of those people are actually people with $20,000, $30,000, or $40,000 as their life-savings, apart from their house. Sadly, we have seen these people losing some of that money. They are looking for an extra 0.5 or 1 percent but are taking a far too excessive risk in relation to the additional return, because of the information available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAlthough we can never completely prevent those things happening, it is hoped that this suite of legislation and changes will reduce the chances of that recurring in the next economic cycle. This is actually a very classic outcome of an economic cycle. As asset values rise, as people seek higher rates of return, and as people become more and more confident that nothing can go wrong, people start taking higher and higher risks. Of course, eventually things go wrong, as they always do sooner or later in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAs this is the last bill we are doing, I think it would be highly churlish of me not to thank the Opposition for its cooperation. I would dearly like to be a fly on the wall at National\u2019s caucus meeting next Tuesday morning as the House manager explains why we have not finished the entire business this week and have had to come back next week. This was the Government\u2019s plan A, as I explained to the media and my own caucus on Tuesday morning, and the great majority of Government members are here next Tuesday in any case. I particularly thank the Opposition, because the way things have turned out means I will now get home significantly earlier than I had been anticipating this week. So I thank those members very much. I expect to get home at the same time next Wednesday as I had been planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab2a95359003417687298ba52138fbcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab2a95359003417687298ba52138fbcf\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Let me, too, commend the Minister Lianne Dalziel for the way she has gone about this legislation. I think she has done a fantastic job in a difficult area. It is a job most politicians would be tempted to grandstand on and make a song and dance about. I believe that the Minister has actually got in and done the business and produced a bill in what is a very, very difficult and fraught area. I also think there is an amazing consensus around Parliament about the limits and abilities of Government regulation when dealing with risk and financial management. This is something I think is new to this House. The consensus is that, yes, the Government can provide a role in providing better information, and in rooting out fraud and fly-by-nighters, but it cannot eliminate the risk. There is this peculiarity about people\u2014I guess it is greed, and the idea that history does not repeat itself. When a company or financial institution is doing particularly well, and when, as the Minister Michael Cullen observed, people can get an extra 0.5 percent, they will rush in, not recognising that down through the ages people who have got high returns have had to take on a big risk and have often lost the very money they seek to protect to provide the lifestyle that we would all wish for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Government cannot protect people from their greed or prevent them from taking exceptional risks. It is part of life. But the Government can provide a good regulatory regime that provides the necessary disclosure, the necessary information, and the desired checks and balances on those people who would stand up and say they will take our money, our savings, and invest them wisely on our behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI believe this is very difficult legislation. It is complex legislation, with a complex impact. There are high rewards for people who can game the regulatory environment, and for those who can find routes through that others cannot and therefore can appear to offer better returns with a suspected lower risk than what is real. Unfortunately, we have seen that happen in recent times in New Zealand, and that lesson has been hard-learnt for some people. Hopefully, it is a lesson that others will pick up on and therefore they will be much more careful with their investments. I commend the Minister for this bill, and I look forward to considering it in the select committee. Like Minister Michael Cullen, I too thank the National Party members for letting us get home early. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200712116629d0ac60c94ae3993260c6327d4dc5001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.35 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"