"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221adc72fc84024262ae6f9540b8370fbe\u0022\u003EWednesday, 23 July 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbb11a1338304967b9f8a01be5b088d9\u0022\u003EWednesday, 23 July 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2e1b81604ed4b418db40164d7d7a744\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3be101c1bfa4409b47c3a36409fecf5\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226004e137baed4f058cf8b303bd21f743\u0022\u003EForeign Affairs, Racing, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fdfd4e436d45ef9a09e6ca1666e1b8\u0022\u003E1. JOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Racing; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022072698ce7dee4dde811484746595f135\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022072698ce7dee4dde811484746595f135\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6682fd83324f05ba312621c23a79e2\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister now received advice from the Cabinet Office as to how Mr Glenn\u2019s $100,000 gift to Mr Peters should be treated by the Prime Minister; if so, what was that advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d20239fd1eb45c6a1c42da6e7d36ba3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Whether that is a gift is not a matter to be determined by me or the Cabinet Office; it is a matter to be determined by the registrar of pecuniary interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b09c707fda4cf99a5cdf58320a1514\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: In view of the calls from the Opposition for party leaders to resign or be referred to authorities for receiving donations and claiming not to know about them, has the Prime Minister seen any reports of any party leader who knew about donations by the Exclusive Brethren to buy an election, and did that party leader claim to have forgotten about them; if so, could that member\u2019s record of forgetfulness explain why he is so willing to contemplate having those people in a ministry of his own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022482e6fec3b4b42f5811cb1a3c4cc1d7f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think the matter is actually worse than that. I think that Mr Key remembered not reading an email he said he had never received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9fbeba82d74a2aa04e5ce82c0f3221\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware, and can she confirm, that paragraph 2.79 of the Cabinet Manual requires Ministers to obtain her express permission to keep gifts valued at more than $500; and will she not accept that Mr Peters, by his own admission, has now admitted that he received a gift of $100,000 from Mr Glenn, and, whether or not she likes it, has to determine whether he will be allowed to keep that gift?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af27e3745567458192f8eab1bdd52bc7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I say again that whether the sum is a gift is a matter for the registrar of pecuniary interests. But can I further make the point that immediately Mr Peters was told of the source of that particular donation to a legal fund, he declared it to me. The Cabinet Office advised me that the court case, of course, was one of particular public interest\u2014considerable public interest\u2014and in such circumstances, if, and I underline that word, such a sum of money were deemed to be a gift, there would be no reason to require a Minister to relinquish it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022825bb49dd9674f0da1560f2b1032df0c\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm these facts: that the Minister of Foreign Affairs is doing a competent job; that these allegations are unproven\u2014none have been confirmed to be against any rules or guidelines\u2014that the Minister has kept the Prime Minister informed at every stage; and that he is continuing to perform his role as Minister of Foreign Affairs in the best interests of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f20a5c89cfbb46beb4855ed9ae3b844d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is my understanding that the answer to all those questions is yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229836b6f5ade6496c87d86c4a77b05f9a\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that the political funding scandal now enveloping the Minister for Racing and Minister of Foreign Affairs shows that if we are to continue with a system of private donations to political parties, then it needs to be transparent; if so, why did the Labour Party and New Zealand First fail to support the Greens\u2019 call for such transparency in the Electoral Finance Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282aa7f678c29412ba69db957cf3c2cdb\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I told the House yesterday, I would be absolutely delighted to see corporate and large private donations banned, on the basis that there would need to be State funding. That has been our consistent position. In answer to the chirping opposite, of course there was no parliamentary majority for a system of State funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02ba16e81034005b781f15b5bda4912\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the question as to whether Mr Peters should be allowed to keep his gift of $100,000 from Mr Glenn is, in fact, quite a simple matter, and the Prime Minister should be clearing up that issue within a matter of days, not a matter of weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ec40ecb60b4b3e996ce49e5f83047b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that the member listened carefully to the answer I gave. What I said was that the Cabinet Office advises me that if the sum were deemed to be a gift, there would be no reason to require the Minister to relinquish it, given the considerable public interest in the court case for which that money was paying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b65cc1a252f403a9e5e88174ea4aa30\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the US Secretary of State is visiting New Zealand this weekend, after accepting a personal invitation from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and is that not yet another example of the strength of the current Minister\u2019s ability to carry out the Government\u2019s policy of continuing to improve relationships with the United States of America?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f09f19279ff45679db09b323ccd3492\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is my understanding that from the very first meeting of the Minister of Foreign Affairs with Condoleezza Rice he has made it very clear that he would like her to accept his invitation to come to New Zealand. She is coming this weekend. I think it is in the interests of New Zealand that she does so, and I commend the Minister for the work he has done to build the relationship with the Secretary of State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226702843cf53747c0a2c9a7fec755b314\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister have confidence that the Minister for Racing acts at all times with the interests of the whole racing sector at heart, or does she have any sense, as some in the racing industry do, that his actions tend to favour those at the high end of the industry, which, incidentally, is the same end from which New Zealand First has received substantial donations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244cb5c58809f4bc491256eb2de45e6f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, I do not have any independent information about where donations come from, but I can say to the member that I have had absolutely no advice or, indeed, even any suggestion of the issue of preference that she has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b20671c75954e79972e4201bfc5e110\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister, in light of everything we now know about the matter, categorically rule out the appointment of Owen Glenn as honorary consul in Monaco; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc28d425124648f4a3c4104df9e300d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have made it very clear that I consider such an appointment to be highly unlikely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae30f9211b9441d49064ab6b0899bf99\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister see as the strengths of the Minister of Foreign Affairs in dealing with our neighbours in the Pacific?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229570b70ef6034cb499ec68f8dd360152\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It has been, I think, the good fortune of New Zealand that our Minister of Foreign Affairs has, from his time as a university student, had connections with many people who have risen to the top of their Pacific country\u2019s legal systems, political systems, and business systems. He has drawn on all those personal contacts, and has brought to the portfolio, in my view, a very high level of interest in the welfare of the Pacific, and, of course, he has been responsible for very significant increases in the development assistance budget for the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21f14b5791f4c0a898baeb5e05a2993\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Should we take it from the Prime Minister\u2019s answer that Mr Peters, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who received a $100,000 gift from Mr Owen Glenn, could be in a position to appoint Mr Glenn as an honorary consul in Monaco; is the Prime Minister seriously telling New Zealanders that she thinks there is no conflict of interest there, that she is not worried about that, and that that is now the new standard for her executive\u2014that even if a Minister receives $100,000 from someone, that Minister can appoint that person to a position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53a9a9bac4942b884b5fb33076d3b46\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear that the member does not listen to the answers given. I can say that it is no more likely that Mr Glenn would be appointed honorary consul than it is likely that the gentleman whom Mr Worth lobbied for would be appointed to the position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c3c4d61ea54abaaaf13ed63917d71b\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister of Foreign Affairs also acting with her confidence in his role as Associate Minister for Senior Citizens, given that senior citizens have benefited through improved funding for pensions and elder care, and the SuperGold card?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd54f3e929aa483b88dfd1d641497e0e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Associate Minister for Senior Citizens most certainly is operating with my confidence, and I acknowledge his work in the development of the SuperGold card, and of the entitlements available pursuant to it, not least of which is the fact that on 1 October people from all over New Zealand who are over the age of 65 and who have that card will be enjoying\u2014provided that negotiations with the regional councils are completed\u2014free off-peak travel on public transport. I think that is a tremendous thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274958808e343403c8a225d5d861e44bf\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Did Winston Peters ask for the racing portfolio when the Prime Minister allocated the portfolios in 2005?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f23b444e2d8b4fed96a984fff8f3952a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb02b661b71b4bfcb32e8e2e485332e4\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister expect that the registrar of pecuniary interests will rule that a gift is a gift or otherwise, regardless of whether it was given by Mr Glenn or anonymously but, rather, on the basis that it was received and retained by a member of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022645742bcb7a140d5a2e0a4af8c329a96\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, Mr Peters\u2019 word has been accepted across the House\u2014that he did not personally know of or personally receive that sum of money. That has been made quite clear. As to how the registrar of pecuniary interests will rule on whether it is a gift, I cannot help the member. But I find it very strange that Opposition members are so certain about these things in the House this afternoon. I listened very carefully to Mr Key on radio this morning, and he was clear that he accepted Mr Peters\u2019 word that he had not known what the source of funding to his lawyer was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227746172ee73348a080f2b09515f359b0\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I ask for your guidance and assistance. On a couple of occasions now during the asking of supplementary questions\u2014once in comments made by Mr Key, and once in comments made by Ms Bradford\u2014implications of corrupt practice have been made. My understanding is that implications of corrupt practice by an honourable member of Parliament are out of order. I ask for your guidance on how such comments should be treated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf88573f624460f980cb10cc978fc8a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. Yes, they are out of order. I did not hear those comments, but if they were made, then I say to the members who made them please be on notice that they are unacceptable in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221caece5220344f0388e8cf05016e6761\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that the allegations made against Mr Peters are indeed very serious allegations, and that it is bad for her Government\u2014and, actually, bad for Parliament\u2014to have those allegations swirling around without their being satisfactorily resolved; and will the Prime Minister tell the country why she is not acting to resolve those issues and get to the bottom of them, when she could do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9bef4dbdc44321be21c54c71750247\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is simple: because I am not the registrar of pecuniary interests, nor the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, nor the Commissioner of Police. I have made it very clear that there are proper processes to be followed. I might add the obvious fact that I am not the Speaker. The Speaker receives complaints of privilege; they are matters for the Speaker to consider. I am advised by the Cabinet secretary on what is proper, and I listen very carefully to the Cabinet secretary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d45443e60734b2799b2963d344bc9b4\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that the Government\u2019s failure to get the numbers to progress sustainability measures like the Marine Reserves Bill and the Fisheries Amendment Bill may have anything to do with the large financial contribution to the party of her Minister of Foreign Affairs from Vela Fishing, which is involved in serious\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3a7a5cc59494f4085cdd53371480a1a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That is the very implication that I raised in my point of order\u2014that the Minister is involved in corrupt practice. I ask that that question be ruled out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf72e46b07924626bb451c50af666e0f\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: My question asked the Prime Minister for her view on potential influences that may impact on one of her Ministers. It is quite reasonable for her, as the Prime Minister responsible for her Ministers, to consider that issue. There was not an implication of corrupt practice; it was simply a question about the responsibility of Ministers and potential influences on their ability to do their job\u2014which is quite within her responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022982c4f2e3a494e76906e724ffedc1486\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: There are many Speakers\u2019 rulings on this matter, and any suggestion that people are subject to outside interference or direction in relation to how they cast their vote in this House has been ruled out on many, many occasions, in many, many different contexts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d693e8876f494eb05838d94042be1a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It was only in the last sitting period that Mr Peters raised a question about the National Party being venal and corrupt. You allowed that question, Madam Speaker. Mr Mallard actually assisted, on the basis that it was raised as a hypothetical question. In fact, it was a much more strongly worded question than the one that the Greens are raising. I point out that the difference between the two is that one question had documentary evidence and the other one was just an allegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f48a7ed05424fa68dbfe949fb8c31ab\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: The wording in the question that raised my concern was the inclusion of the words \u201Chad anything to do with the large donations he had received\u201D. I would have thought that those words were immediately an implication of corrupt practice and therefore should be ruled out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2e95cd036ca42f4950331358c4d8a6b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As members know, and as was rightly raised in the point of order, members cannot make implications or imputations in questions that go to matters that could be interpreted as misconduct or corruption. I listened carefully to the member\u2019s question, and I would suggest to her that she rephrase the question, because I would rule that in that context it could be seen that there is an implication of corrupt practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248cde2443c0b4f9dbda386534905b22d\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that the Government\u2019s failure to get the numbers to progress sustainability measures like the Marine Reserves Bill and the Fisheries Amendment Bill through the House may have anything to do with the relationship between her Minister of Foreign Affairs and other fishing interests, particularly, for example, those of Vela Fishing, which is involved in seriously unsustainable fishing practices, including the fishing of orange roughy, tuna, and Antarctic tooth fish?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bceabfa9b1c4fcc9e279133b8bc5143\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: If I were for a moment to accept that, in respect of New Zealand First, I would have to accept it in respect of every party that was unsympathetic to those particular law changes\u2014not least, of course, the New Zealand National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73f2c87bfc4416782374c6fb2a868b7\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why, given the seriousness of the allegations against Mr Peters, is the Prime Minister not following her normal course of practice, which is to refer this matter to an independent inquiry, in the same way she followed that procedure when the Taito Phillip Field matter was being considered, even if the inquiry was a bit of a sham?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e508078a70479e95a8f694d7a1597a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Issues have been raised in respect of pecuniary interests, in respect of tax, and in respect of privilege in this House. There are three independent sources of inquiry that can be used for each of those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221166f113c20348d689f30daeb7b1e8b3\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister for Racing and her Minister of Finance are regarded as having saved the racing industry through changes to racing\u2019s tax system that gave it equal footing with casinos?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad48595f4eee4257bd4af3c8a5afa962\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased that the member quoted that particular matter, because I have in my hand a 2005 document entitled National\u2019s Plan for the Racing Industry, which says that it would align racing betting duty with that paid by casinos, at a cost of $25 million. So it would be nice if Mr Key could clarify for the media later whether any donations were received from the racing industry in return for that promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd90f5690dc455c8365a9cd649ed0c4\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Do any of the Prime Minister\u2019s Ministers receive donations from industries they are meant to be regulating and taxing; and does she expect any Minister, including her Minister for Racing, who finds himself or herself negotiating tax breaks for party donors to bring that to her attention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253753f4d00354f3cbaedf66fa275aff6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I do think there was in that question exactly the implication that Mr Mark objected to before. I can say, in respect of Ministers, that they are not expected to receive donations from industry, at all. But I will also make the obvious point that when a Minister is appointed in charge of a portfolio, there is a legitimate expectation from sectors relating to that portfolio that they will be able to put a case to that Minister\u2014whether it is fisheries, forests, agriculture, health, racing, or whatever\u2014so that they can have their requests considered. That is the normal business of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c1d09b7aae44ed945512590adb688b\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister confident that the Minister of Foreign Affairs will continue her Government\u2019s programme of improving our relations with the United States and Pacific and Asian nations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3babe02f95466a92c1118eeacd0eb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly am. In respect of each of those three areas, it is noteworthy that in the past week or so Mr Peters has been doing our country\u2019s and the Pacific Islands Forum\u2019s business in the South Pacific. He is hosting the United States Secretary of State here this coming weekend, and accompanying her to the Pacific. Of course, at this time, he is in Singapore, in respect of a meeting, I believe, for ASEAN Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231f898e6813a407f84d115de8e0d83ce\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the content of some of the supplementary questions asked this afternoon, particularly those from the Leader of the Opposition, does the Prime Minister see the refusals by anyone to rule out the Minister of Foreign Affairs continuing in his role after the election as a reflection of his strong performance in the role, a reflection of the total lack of competence on the Opposition benches, or a combination of both?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d71e26f1d65f45a49db10082d5aafa40\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is my opinion that Winston Peters has acquitted himself well as Minister of Foreign Affairs and I am sure that should he be in a position to be negotiating a portfolio again, he will be putting forward a very strong case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5628a9caae41808f1866f75e3dc36d\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister saying that the new standard for the way she will measure her Ministers is solely on their performance in their portfolio and not in relation to whether they take a $100,000 gift\u2014which is clearly in breach of the Cabinet Manual, regardless of whether she wants to accept that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8fdc473aa6459ea66166ee25fc604f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am mystified by that question, because Mr Key has agreed elsewhere that he accepts Mr Peters\u2019 word that he did not know the source of donations into that fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263534046884048fc984c336abb06b0e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister received any reports of somebody arguing that all political donations should be anonymous so that one cannot be influenced by them; secondly, that even where a political donation is anonymous the person who received it, not knowing who it was, should nevertheless declare who it was and what it was; and, thirdly, arguing that any behaviour by a person before he or she entered Government\u2014such as, for example, being convicted of contempt of court\u2014should have nothing to do with being appointed as a Minister, unless, of course, he or she is appointed as a Minister in a Labour-led Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221772126e8be947f88cab5b725357002c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It seems to me that all those conflicting positions are held by the same person: Mr Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d89cb602ae4a518d0f55fda8038711\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister prepared to accept that there is probably quite a lot of difference between a donation that may be accepted by a political party and a donation that is accepted by an individual for his or her own personal use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eacdec091a2b49b8867604b719d70730\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday I cautioned the member from going down that particular route, because if he is going to hold Mr Peters accountable for declaring donations into a legal fund as either relevant debt declarations or gift declarations in the interests of the pecuniary interest register, then we would want to know why Mr Smith did not declare the debts and did not declare the gifts, and whether he knows who puts money into his account. I am well aware that Mr Smith declared a beneficial interest in a trust, but he has not declared the debt that he owes\u2014nor has he declared who helped him pay for it; nor has he declared gifts under that section of the declaration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed1a7610773e49b99a984542ee2cfb58\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I contacted the registrar of pecuniary interests and sought advice as to what disclosure requirements I was to make. The registrar was clear that what I needed to declare was a pecuniary interest in a trust. I have done just that. I seek leave to table the pecuniary interest declaration that I made on that advice, which clearly states there was a trust that provided support for that legal action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc3ad16ebc244361a8f59b6243d67142\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It therefore follows from Mr Smith\u2019s point of order that if that were the appropriate course for him to follow and that he does not have to declare either debts or gifts, then nor does Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f200a5a67041118c4fdbcb9e91080d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: At the end of Dr Smith\u2019s statement he then sought leave. So leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba541cdef25744c4888493e14dcae0f0\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just want to make the comment as a point of order that Mr Smith\u2019s point of order was not a point of order. It was a personal statement and should have been dealt with as a request to seek leave to make a personal statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e4b767495d4775876f6faf1ba83d7f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. I gave the member the benefit of the doubt, because it was unclear as to whether he was seeking leave or making a personal statement. At the end of his thought I assumed he would in fact get to the point. I gave him the courtesy of waiting. At the end of it, he did seek leave. That leave was sought and has been denied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7e609791ede4633a56d37d5afd82768\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation\u2014Agriculture and Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e44479bfea2740c08d4ea16a4b9fb64a\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What reports has he received on the importance of ACC to farmers and other agriculture and forestry workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022496b29e51dd24f0692364ca8bf4a3a5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022496b29e51dd24f0692364ca8bf4a3a5d\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) provides not just weekly compensation but also ambulance and emergency services, ongoing medical care and home help, physical rehabilitation, lump-sum payments, and modification to homes and cars. In the case of a major industry, ACC provides those benefits to rural families, sometimes for life. This is important to rural people who work in the most dangerous areas of our country, and to their families. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry reports to me that up to 25 agricultural work fatalities and up to 16 forestry deaths occur each year. The loss of ACC would mean much higher insurance costs for rural families and much reduced cover and security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f93db5c8b54037a9497dcdc44e60c4\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen about possible alternative schemes; and what would the specific effects be for rural families and other agricultural workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df1001a6afa547bda85f7284b95237a5\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report that the National Party has a policy of ripping ACC protection from rural families and replacing it with a privatised scheme. When a similar scheme was introduced in Australia a report by the previous Australian Liberal-National Government found levies in Australia\u2019s competitive market were twice as expensive as those for New Zealand\u2019s primary sector. This research was backed up by an independent PricewaterhouseCoopers report last year. One can see what is in National\u2019s policy for Australian-owned insurance companies that donate to National, but one cannot see what is in it for farmers or anyone in our primary rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e83b46b61c645b9a3a1198f920a21ab\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What flexibility does ACC give to primary sector employers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a967f46f3b54cddb9a2ae7d6e0c8193\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: ACC offers an initiative for self-employed people and employers of fewer than 20 staff with good safety performances, so that safe workplaces can be recognised with levy discounts. It offers programmes to improve safety in the rural sector, such as farm bike safety equipment and the FarmSafe programme. The alternative scheme promoted by the National Party offers premiums up to 250 percent higher, reduced coverage, and less security for rural New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ca1b9efe9da4ae1972cb000396ad72f\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Would ACC offer more protections to farming families if it were a State-owned enterprise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e508d4818948e4a62fb0a74a798581\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: This is an interesting question. If it were a State-owned enterprise it would be on the list of assets National says it will not privatise in its first term, but because it is not a State-owned enterprise, National is not ruling out selling it. ACC would be privatised by National. For the same reason, we can expect that anything else owned by the people of New Zealand and not a State-owned enterprise would be sold, including Air New Zealand, Television New Zealand, the Superannuation Fund, the roads, the hospitals, and even the schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dad0c87a2f224cf18ef2a1aa8e049fab\u0022\u003EMigration\u2014Net Position\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8fa2c8347d421f93f856558a522a75\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CWhen I am looking at year after year after year of positive net migration to New Zealand, I know this country is very capable of attracting and retaining its best and brightest.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002235a1d0b50dd44de5bf80df41c9919390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235a1d0b50dd44de5bf80df41c9919390\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117c663a224f47c6b760fb2d6132ccd1\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister saying that she is unconcerned about record levels of emigration from New Zealand as long as the number of people arriving here from overseas is greater than the number of New Zealanders leaving; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f680c2576b45e58ab030678521a6be\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have said in the past that there is a \u201Cbrain exchange\u201D going on. I note that 62 percent of the permanent and long-term departures from New Zealand are of skilled or highly skilled people, while a larger proportion of those coming into New Zealand\u2014namely 67 percent\u2014are skilled or highly skilled. So New Zealand is the net winner in those terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea75f3180a634cfcb747c3dea6eb1989\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How can we be retaining skilled New Zealanders, when according to the latest figures more than 45,000 people left New Zealand to live permanently in Australia last year, making this the highest loss for a June year since records began 30 years ago? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231da3bb74fcf40cca5fa782a6ae0d166\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member is somewhat fixated with numbers to and from Australia. I think it is much more honest to look at overall net migration figures. Net migration figures in the ninth year of the Labour-led Government, in the year to June 2008, were positive by 4,732. In the ninth year of the National Government, the year to June 1999, the net migration figures were negative\u2014by minus 11,369. I rest my case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c34562d50a764471a741e7974f694493\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister say in response to comments by various migrant community representatives that one of the reasons why people move on is there is not the same level of opportunities in New Zealand as in Australia, and that the Government has not done enough in its three terms of office to amend our immigration and resettlement policy to encourage people to make long-term commitments to New Zealand, rather than to come here, gain citizenship benefits, and then move on to other countries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb8d3b8c7a424706af80799e91587232\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not agree with that. I think our Government has done a great deal to improve the settlement of migrants. When I became Prime Minister quite a high level of new ethnic communities\u2019 members were experiencing unemployment. That has fallen quite sharply, and we are seeing new migrants represented right across the mainstream of employment, which I think is a good thing. I think the reality for a number of migrants is that they go to be with bigger communities of their own people in Australia\u2014I think that is quite a powerful pull. But no, I could not agree with the assertions that the member quoted from some other source. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4fd40d01c45433f8481b263bf688109\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister recall that back in 2000 she told the New Zealand Press Association that the main driver for the number of skilled New Zealanders choosing to move to Australia, rather than to live in New Zealand, was the relative state of the economy; if that is the case, is Mr Dunne not absolutely correct\u2014that the reason they are deserting New Zealand in droves is the poor economic management of her Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d0c44671c3475a93b9b22e6dad1b7f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It might be relevant to compare the average per annum economic growth rates of New Zealand and Australia. From December 1999 to December 2007, New Zealand grew on average by 3.4 percent and Australia grew on average by 3.3 percent, as compared with the period from 1991 to 1999 inclusive, when the Australian economy grew at 3.5 percent a year on average, and in New Zealand, under a National Government, we grew at 2.8 percent on average.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea0b6f97dba94dd89fb5b48728cfb17b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002280c48ff980e24c7b969bf11872e4f454\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280c48ff980e24c7b969bf11872e4f454\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My question is to the Minister of Police. Which of the policies\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022561c9385ef964eef8592c072c0406dd7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member just continue his question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c47b5f8196e4123a1baefa4f0a05edb\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I will start again. Which of the policies released\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf011a3e1984dfa8be8e3f48d00d9e6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The obvious choice!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229601b48046f94722a723fd2ad9e91ae5\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Bigger is not better, Gerry, is it. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db1cad855bfe4069a652934c6093efc8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, that is it. The question will be read in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee243bfce4e243258557811e083c0363\u0022\u003EPolice Association\u2014Policies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279745eaacf9b4325893bfa37ed74fb90\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Which of the policies released by the Police Association in its document Towards a Safer New Zealand, particularly those regarding youth crime, and police equipment and training, does she agree with, if any?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022f94771c589814a089defa325896325ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f94771c589814a089defa325896325ec\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I support a number of the policies released by the Police Association. Some of its suggestions are pieces of work that are already being progressed or investigated. Examples include the provision for police to issue temporary, on-the-spot domestic violence protection orders, increasing police resources through the confidence and supply agreement with New Zealand First, the introduction of a new digital radio network, and, in particular, the development of a police professional registration model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228563ffc467154da3a7bf2aca8811b308\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Police Association has now joined New Zealand First in its call for Tasers to be issued to every front-line police officer; and that the association supports the lowering of the age of criminal responsibility, and is calling for police-to-population ratios to be comparable to those in Australia; and can she confirm that the Government\u2019s confidence and supply agreement with New Zealand First has a view to achieving those ratios comparable to those in Australia, by 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6ca601666a439692ba2cb8c3ff35a7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm the confidence and supply agreement as set out by the member. I can confirm also that the Police Association has a lot in common with New Zealand First\u2019s law and order policy. It also has many features that have been implemented by this Government and supported by the Police Association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f32f262dfa44b9899fef565ca421b1b\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. E whakaae ana te Minita ki te Kaiwhakaw\u0101 Matua o te K\u014Dti Taiohi, ki a Andrew Becroft e mea nei, e waru tekau \u014D-rau ng\u0101 taiohi hara e m\u0101uiui ana i te mate waipiro, i te mate kai p\u014Dauau r\u0101nei, a wai hoki r\u0101, whitu tekau \u014D-rau k\u0101ore i te kura, \u0101, n\u014D reira, ka whakaaro pea te Minita, he pai ake te \u0101rai i \u0113nei raruraru i te mahi whakatuma, e ai ki te k\u014Drero a te Uniana m\u014D ng\u0101 Pirihimana, he whakaaro whakatoi hara \u0101 \u0113tahi, kia h\u0101menetia te tamaiti tekau m\u0101 rua, tekau m\u0101 toru tau r\u0101nei te pakeke?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Does the Minister agree with the Principal Youth Court Judge, Andrew Becroft, that up to 80 percent of teenage offenders have drug and alcohol problems, and 70 percent are not enrolled in any form of education; and would she not consider it more constructive to create front-end solutions, rather than engage in what the Police Association describes as the \u201Cideological prejudices of many of those involved in the debate\u201D to lower the age of criminal responsibility?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225863dc8618cc40709698f8e466a8c8d0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: This Government believes that one needs to take a multi-pronged approach to the problem of youth offending. We agree there needs to be work at the front end, which is why Schools Plus is a very important policy for this Government, as are our Modern Apprenticeships and other policies that we have implemented to help young people into jobs training and education. We know that early intervention is needed when young people start to go off the rails, and also that one needs policies to deal with those who become serious offenders. We have taken the approach of addressing the issue on all those fronts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91fc2e021f74fe794431e56be68cf48\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell the media yesterday, in response to the Police Association\u2019s policy launch, that she was open to the trialling of antisocial behaviour orders, whereas when the Rotorua District Council proposed a local bill back in 2006 that would have done just that, Steve Chadwick said she was \u201Cnot convinced it\u2019s a bill I would want to put my name to\u201D; and also 2 weeks ago she told the Daily Post that the legislation was unlikely to come before the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83a04b580644f69a321e7dd31141f60\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the member is poorly informed. The trialling of antisocial behaviour orders\u2014a project out of the United Kingdom\u2014has certainly been looked at by this Government in terms of our effective intervention policy, and we said we were prepared to look at the project. However, a bill is being developed in conjunction with the Rotorua District Council and the local police, and it is still being developed. Not only has it been worked through with Steve Chadwick, but I have had several meetings about it. The Government awaits that bill when it is ready for introduction. So I say to the member that whoever is giving him the information is not informing him correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231925d56f984180ab1ca321eb9712ef\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe Madam Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou te Whare; ki te Minita, e whakaae ana ia ki te Uniana o ng\u0101 Pir\u012Bhimana m\u0101 te p\u016Bhiko, ar\u0101, te Taser, ka whara t\u016Bturu te tangata hara, \u0101, e m\u014Dhio an\u014D hoki ia, kei Amerika, mai i te putanga mai o te p\u016Bhiko, nui atu i te toru rau ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kua whara t\u016Bturu kia mate i te mauhere me te p\u016Bhiko, n\u014D reira, ka tautoko tonutia e ia kia uru mai te p\u016Bhiko nei ki Aotearoa, \u0101, he aha te take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Does she agree with the Police Association that Tasers are required to \u201Creliably incapacitate an offender\u201D, and is she aware that since June 2001 more than 300 people in the USA have died following exposure to Tasers during arrest situations; and if so, will she still support the introduction of the Taser into Aotearoa, and why?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd6e493998f45d8b7b92318f719c72a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There is no doubt that the New Zealand police need another intervention weapon between pepper spray and shooting someone with a gun. Unfortunately, our New Zealand police do not have anything between those tactical options. The trial of the Taser was carried out in New Zealand to see whether it was applicable to the New Zealand situation, how it would be deployed, and whether it would be deployed, and I await the advice of the Commissioner of Police on that evaluation. I am prepared to look at the introduction of another tactical option if it is going to save the lives of the public, including those who would otherwise have been shot, which has fatal consequences, and also the lives of those persons causing problems, because often those people are in a disturbed state, and the only option has been to shoot those people, which obviously has a fatal outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022720f582134b34150b272e8e8b769da9c\u0022\u003EOrganised and Financial Crime Agency\u2014Establishment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e27c229b9ba9437fb068e4e1571b092c\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Was the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand (OFCANZ) established on 1 July 2008 as scheduled; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00228bcb48a5c73f4ff087b50a406b0a7ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bcb48a5c73f4ff087b50a406b0a7ffb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Although I have not formally launched the agency, I am pleased to advise that it is already working on its first file.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a966315db6214abf99a90f0bdd0bf27e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that Cabinet considered papers on the proposed Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand without seeing the dissenting advice of the Serious Fraud Office, despite the fact that those papers proposed subsuming the Serious Fraud Office into the new organised crime agency; and why did Ministers refuse to meet with the Director of the Serious Fraud Office before making their decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b81db7411ab4291892a60392ae03800\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Considerable discussions had taken place around the establishment of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency, and when Cabinet came to make a decision discussions had already been held, including discussions between the Commissioner of Police and the Serious Fraud Office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223482609aed9444808516cee66fea2b9c\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House what steps have been taken to establish the Organised and Financial Crime Agency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200bd649b248a4588be2f56503ea6107a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The police have worked hard to establish the Organised and Financial Crime Agency, and that work includes appointing the establishment director, John Beaglehole, in December 2007; putting in place an establishment team, which includes a detective superintendent, a superintendent, and a detective inspector, who are working closely with the Serious Fraud Office to ensure a smooth transition; and working with other agencies to identify the most significant areas of organised crime, so that taskforces can be most effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a96a1175b6b460ea6a1aaa7fbc64d72\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Cabinet denied the opportunity to take into account advice from the Serious Fraud Office that the proposal to roll it into the new Organised and Financial Crime Agency was based on \u201Cfacts that are either misleading or, even worse, untrue\u201D, and that \u201Csome Ministers will be misled by this paper, with potentially very serious consequences.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288263cd1436b421a94c15426fd1e8c4f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that Cabinet had many, many discussions and meetings on the establishment of this agency, including discussion on the role of the Serious Fraud Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260475dcb9e2f4aa1a1233736e67ec881\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the former Director of the Serious Fraud Office, David Bradshaw, who said today that \u201Cdropping the powers to order suspects to produce documents and answer questions would delay investigations for years and would see cases dropped without the facts coming out\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f14443f7add4874bb2f204886252166\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Bradshaw said that today, then he does not know what powers have been transferred over from the Serious Fraud Office to the new agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a1f572280b4337be913956c6030dcc\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister respond to the submission by Mr Bradshaw to the Law and Order Committee in which he said that during his 10 years with the Serious Fraud Office the police had never asked it to help investigate serious fraud relating to organised crime, and that \u201CIf organised crime is now moving into the financial world, you\u2019d surely want, at the very least, the same capability and the same powers.\u201D, not less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228826a3f8a8534c6286b12bfdfa56aa7e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am staggered that Mr Bradshaw said that to the committee. Let me remind the member what powers have been transferred over. Production orders and examination orders will be carried over to the Organised and Financial Crime Agency under the Serious Fraud Office (Abolition and Transitional Provisions) Bill. The powers are essentially the same as those in the Serious Fraud Office Act, but judicial approval is needed to exercise those powers. In other words, one gets approval from a judge to exercise those powers. They are the same powers. If one tried to introduce those powers now, one would not get them through this Parliament, because there was no provision for oversight. Oversight of those powers requires a judge giving approval. They are the same powers with the same\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c56ddec2984c87858290180c148093\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: They are not the same. They are a different regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e48c2e4332c4e238d44455d465cc0d5\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member is screaming out they are not the same; they are the same powers with judicial oversight. What is wrong with that\u2014to have someone else have oversight? It happens every day in the issuing of search warrants and other orders that are given. It is a protection for the people of New Zealand; it ensures that the powers are being appropriately applied. Once approval is given, the powers can be applied. What does the National Party find objectionable about that\u2014other than its wanting unbridled power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed1bac05d7ab46cbbce996cd21500335\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252cdc6cf098f49efa64903d55b435aea\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What reports has he received on employment relations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022becfb340bdef46739d4907e50072c861\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022becfb340bdef46739d4907e50072c861\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a report that shows that under a Labour-led Government, and with some very good predecessors, income for New Zealand\u2019s lowest paid has gone up by 71 percent\u2014four times more than National achieved in 9 years\u2014notwithstanding National Party opposition to increasing the minimum wage. Since 2002, 130,000 parents have taken advantage of paid parental leave, notwithstanding National\u2019s opposition to the introduction of this scheme, to its extension, and to the increases in rates. Working families now have at least 4 weeks a year to spend as families as a result of the Holidays Act changes\u2014something that was opposed by National. National is recommending that that provision becomes negotiable, and in fact, goes back to what it was and is taken away from workers. Real incomes in New Zealand have improved by 25 percent since 2000. Many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders have done well with these changes, and they know that their rights are safe only with Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c208ce269045acbad76cc033cdf5cc\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen about employment relations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c7891ebb0bc4f82823af02a9309aab4\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen recent reports that show that under a National Government\u2014a receding possibility\u2014employer contributions to KiwiSaver would be gone, according to Kate Wilkinson; would be back, according to John Key; and then they would be gone again, according to Shane Ardern. The ability to fire people at will would be introduced. Workers would face the risk of being fired for nothing or for complaining about being sexually harassed, and they would have no right of appeal. I am proud that millions of New Zealanders have a Labour-led Government to ensure their rights are protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222049b49eec334256ab3d15404f34c2ab\u0022\u003EClimate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preferences) Bill\u2014Timetable\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dbee4f91d914789bcd33bf24a5e8941\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Leader of the House: What is the Government\u2019s timetable for passing the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill; and will the second reading be held during this parliamentary session?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002215bd5f39a58744e1962a2cdebe6bbc74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215bd5f39a58744e1962a2cdebe6bbc74\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s timetable for this bill is for it to be passed in 2008. As this parliamentary session must end by 6 October by law, we are aiming to hold the second reading and remaining stages before then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d6775e47ba44d0cabd031d133024fe7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What changes is the Government prepared to make to the bill to address the major flaws that have been identified by the Green Party in order to secure its support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5b3fdf3d47240fcbdf4741409a3dc45\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As Leader of the House I am responsible for the timetabling of the legislation; I am not responsible for its content. That is the responsibility of the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243688360a525479a9f0f35e160e1ae9c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: My question was set down for the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues. It is the Government that transferred the question to the Leader of the House. I thus seek leave to ask the same supplementary question, which Dr Cullen says he is not able to answer it, of the Minister, David Parker, who I am sure would be delighted to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa5e11c0242c4018b81c14acd9d3700a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d72d728e55f473c9a1ece7e1c789123\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the Finance and Expenditure Committee given only 3 days to consider over 1,000 amendments to this important legislation, on the basis that the Government urgently wanted it to be returned to the House, when the bill has subsequently sat on the Order Paper for 7 weeks without any progress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db43917b65ab4d3693293d1a73517199\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of that question, of course, is not the responsibility of the Leader of the House. It was a matter for the select committee. As to the second part of the question, I am sure the member is aware that at this point the Government does not have sufficient support to pass the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a59278842d439f9212969548b6c860\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government agree to refer the bill back to the select committee, given that it is obvious it is going nowhere before the House\u2014because I think we all agree it is crucial for New Zealand that we get the best-designed emissions trading scheme possible\u2014and furthermore, given that over 1,000 amendments were given and the select committee had only 3 days to consider them, the select committee could well use this time to do the job properly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f72d204b9d4e109fa2bbc50c3a9885\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear from the statements made by the National Party that it wants to pass a bill that does nothing, does not affect anybody, and makes no impact upon the economy, but that can be said to do something about climate change. That is not the Government\u2019s intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd0b927a16444fca40e0642d024d9d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question to the Leader of the House was not about National\u2019s view, which is quite rational about climate change and emissions trading\u2014[Interruption] So those members can yabber during points of order, Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c9b0c552dbc4e49a4d67e04da3f5754\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please, would the member make his point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227913ee8012f7429e8ed084029359ef70\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order concerned a specific question that asked whether the Government will refer the bill back to the select committee, given that we had so little time to consider such major changes. All I got was a recital on a misrepresentation of National\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2fd1f21a23840389a4bae676ecf1d2a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Leader of the House wish to add to his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f491362cb5f644a68312f863a583487d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to expand upon my fuller version of no. No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f4c89f5942417eb6a37ce8ebc25d7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What assurance can the Minister give that, given the importance of this legislation, we will have the opportunity to have the second reading during the course of this 3-week sitting period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046c254ee75e4ebab713346c7ee89969\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has a considerable amount of work to do during this 3-week sitting, not the least of which, of course, is that we have to finish the Appropriation Bill. The Leader of the House is particularly and acutely conscious of the need to finish the Appropriation Bill during this session.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4d75d85ca942fbac3c957b541834a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason that the Prime Minister has been pussyfooting around the misconduct of Winston Peters that the Government is so desperate to get support for this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b592d15e826c4a6fbcac4045b4f3e099\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have a very long political memory in the case of Prime Ministers and Parliament, going back to November 1981. I do not recall her pussyfooting at any time during that period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282d4b4f02f9a4572859dd20d53a9479d\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation\u2014Conflicting Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022766ddf996c1d45dabde00c44f7c7d0cc\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Has she received any conflicting reports regarding accident compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00227b718dfb4b594f9580ee20076299a70d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b718dfb4b594f9580ee20076299a70d\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have seen a report from John Key stating that National\u2019s stocktake of accident compensation would include all accounts, and that as well as the work account, the earners account and the motor vehicle account could also be privatised. I have also seen a completely contradictory report from Murray McCully stating that \u201Cthere would be big challenges privatising the earners and motor vehicle accounts, which is why the National Party policy does not go there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ddc72d52d4c4316829af8f91996b242\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other contradictory reports about accident compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0eb02d8ba2c425a833f2e98577e55dd\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, John Key said that \u201Clevy rates are rising rapidly and going through the roof.\u201D, but Murray McCully said that \u201Clevies peaked in 2002, and they are now nudging downwards.\u201D John Key said that under privatisation \u201Cpremiums will go down.\u201D, but Murray McCully said that the ability of private insurers to offer lower premiums is now \u201Cseverely constrained\u201D. Who can the public believe on privatisation when two National MPs are telling two different stories?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a0c165c479b4d109f04ecbc0bc8e442\u0022\u003EImmigration Service\u2014Mary Anne Thompson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a201d8913e06446aae3a870042083407\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What was irregular about the circumstances in which family members of Mary Anne Thompson obtained residence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00223075e5779174499b9ef4070eebeef017\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223075e5779174499b9ef4070eebeef017\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Associate Minister of Immigration)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Immigration: These matters are being addressed in the various investigations that are currently under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f2ce43cbc384e23ae95bd7555b4215a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister of Immigration, around the time these irregularities occurred\u2014a Minister who assured the House that he \u201Cruns the show\u201D to use his own words, and is on top of things\u2014aware of any of these irregularities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a98b7a42f04767b3bb435782282a11\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That particular quote is well known to members of the House, and was made by the Minister of Health in his capacity as Minister of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022400df5a761e94ed8ac0fcac0b5394912\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I recall it that way. I ask the member to rephrase the question. I do not think that comment probably added anything to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1414efca81a49cda37bf64f1b00883d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister of Immigration, around the time these irregularities occurred\u2014the Minister who is currently the Minister of Health\u2014aware of any of these irregularities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022746c253a1a2b453ab8f2e32b55e58da2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously all of these perplexing events will be swept up in the State Services Commission\u2019s inquiry. As has already been noted in the House, the former Minister was briefed on such matters in the context of a staff performance matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f1ed7bda3c48a682a9824a1005f080\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister of Immigration around the time these irregularities occurred consider the fact that legitimate applications from Kiribati citizens were being declined because of apparently unlawful decisions in his department to be an employment performance matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a86448e7fa8d4fe58d6b04c09f58cbf9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: These machinations that Dr Smith refers to no doubt will be addressed in great detail in the multiple number of reviews, and if he just goes on, taihoa he too will have it revealed to him. The Minister of the time was briefed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221520f18f6aa84a0ca3d0a282562c7363\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Just answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e58736acaa040a08be51acc6d557d11\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Smith this issue, unlike himself, is not inert, and I ask him to give us a fair go. The Minister was briefed in the context of it being a staff performance issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229645e74b9dd14813b8bf34a95863d3c7\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How could the Minister at the time, the Hon David Cunliffe\u2014who claims to always be in control of things\u2014consider the fact that staff regularly felt obliged to record \u201Cas instructed by\u201D when processing applications because of the frequency with which Government immigration policy was being breached, and why did the Hon David Cunliffe consider that to be a staff performance or employment matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9127655091845d1977cc0f08a45bb10\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, two reviews are of particular importance. The terms of reference dealing with the Auditor-General\u2019s department will be investigating what, if anything, Ministers said at various points in this process; and, secondly, the State Services Commission will uncover all the various decisions that were made either irregularly or in other wrongful forms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228888527d6ecf4bec82a7d1857bf334b8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that for over a year the Minister of Immigration at the time knew of these irregularities involving the former head of the Immigration Service but turned a blind eye to them by not asking any further questions about apparently unlawful activity within his own department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223511760f254b49a58d1dc3096b1b709f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: This is the third attempt to address the questions put forward by Lockwood\u2014although one thinks of deadwood. The man\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022525f5435b79e4dc98c9ab12d136c8e3c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is unnecessary\u2014absolutely unnecessary. Would the Minister please just address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249a0cd2da20a4ad9b5856e55ccdd80ae\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The former Minister received a briefing in the context of a staff performance issue. He chose not to intrude beyond that statutory line defining the difference between the bureaucracy and the responsible Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e2beb8e587e46ec817c3ee0efffb4df\u0022\u003EGifts\u2014Cabinet Manual Guidelines\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae1be6b77fc46deb34b6716534374e9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Is she aware of rule 2.81 of the Cabinet Manual that states, \u201CTo avoid creating or appearing to create an obligation, gifts in cash or kind are not to be solicited or accepted from a commercial enterprise or any other organisation, either in New Zealand or overseas.\u201D; and does she advise her Ministers that having their lawyer solicit and seek funds for their personal legal bills avoids \u201Ccreating or appearing to create an obligation\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aba05eb6f9a647d995345ca91e9ca8bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aba05eb6f9a647d995345ca91e9ca8bb\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I am aware of paragraph 2.81 of the Cabinet Manual. I would, of course, note that the manual is not a rule book; it provides guidance. I advise all Ministers to act in ways consistent with that guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f7d7b7a7624594adfb089d82d49eb1\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister then believe that Mr Peters has found a way through paragraph 2.81 by having his lawyer, Mr Brian Henry, solicit and obtain funds for Mr Peters\u2019 legal bills on his behalf, and that as long as Mr Peters does not know who was putting in the $100,000, he is still acting consistently with the Cabinet Manual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe147239149480fb1b862c0c2c724c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that the Cabinet Manual does not set out rules; it sets out guidance. Secondly, the member has no basis for the allegations that he has just made about money for legal fees. Thirdly, I point out that Mr Brian Henry has stated publicly now on at least two occasions that everything he knows about funding electoral petitions like this one he learnt when he was involved in the National Party electoral petition for Wyatt Creech, after the 1987 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f141d6c71b22475092443843b3b59d4d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister asked Winston Peters whether he knew that Mr Brian Henry was soliciting and receiving funds on Mr Peters\u2019 behalf, as Brian Henry has said he was doing, and has she asked also on what date Mr Peters learnt that his legal bill had been reduced by $100,000; if not, why has she not asked Mr Peters those questions\u2014is she concerned about the answers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152f60847f4346f4ba9bcf105647a917\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not asked those questions. The matter is clear to me. Mr Peters has advised me that he was advised late on Friday of the source of the money going to his lawyer. He had not known the source of that money before then. I believe that Mr Peters, like other sensible party leaders, keeps a great distance from the issue of soliciting funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f327afddf26948999f4a6a1799f11d1c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166d4586a65b4088abd128f8d1861467\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I think I am out of supplementary questions, Madam Speaker. I am happy to take another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfacd7ec7cfc43e3a7161a16d2419522\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can have tomorrow\u2019s question today, if he wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214c5f1260c124144a9d439ba151c43d7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Let us have something to look forward to here in the House. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Prime Minister is consistently and wilfully dodging the questions that Mr Copeland and I have been asking, by saying that Mr Peters did not know about the source of the donations. My question specifically asked whether Mr Peters knew that money was being solicited\u2014not the source of the donations, but the fact that the money was being solicited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b1875d2dfc34a9e9ac8d500feb5e5e4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have listened very carefully. The Prime Minister, like all Ministers, is required to address the question. However, Ministers are not required to give the answer that members want to hear. The Prime Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa94be20c0c1424e8001f8d9dfbd4e25\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the questions asked by Mr Rodney Hide, did the Prime Minister hear an interview this morning with the former leader of the ACT party, the Hon Richard Prebble, and can she contrast the nature of the statements made by Mr Prebble with those made by Mr Peters on those matters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221306cca8362d4d8e83bae0816c2d07d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have certainly seen the transcript of the interview, and I heard it myself. As I take it from the interview, Mr Prebble was very careful as a party leader not to know of, or be involved with, the soliciting of donations for his legal defence costs. That seems to me to be pretty similar to what my understanding of Mr Peters\u2019 position is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242dd736d19aa45288e427d845ba4008a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225feb71bd3e9c487495cbceb88b195a63\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. As members well know, and as I have explained in the past, there is a market in supplementary questions. I have to be notified beforehand, and I have been notified, so Rodney Hide has an extra supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf8f3433265447a58d28ff7092fb62ab\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and we can still look forward to another one tomorrow. Does the Prime Minister believe that Mr Peters knew that Brian Henry, his lawyer, was seeking funds to pay for his electoral petition against Mr Bob Clarkson, and does she believe that Mr Peters knew that the bill had been reduced by $100,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d15e3e8da05f47cca2f70655693f4d32\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot be expected to have any insight into those matters. What I do know is that Mr Henry has made it very clear that the way in which he has operated in respect of this electoral petition is exactly the way the National Party taught him to operate in respect of the 1987 one over the Wairarapa electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e3abc186a88428f9269c4df2be44d84\u0022\u003EState Housing\u2014Subletting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be36c4dbf3984625896bc49d35035749\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does she stand by the statement with regard to State housing that \u201Ccases of subletting are very rare\u201D, that pursuing them would be a \u201Cwild goose chase\u201D, and that the Minister is \u201Cstill waiting for Mr Heatley to front up with a single example\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b76c2040ae49939c737214f204a662\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b76c2040ae49939c737214f204a662\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Education) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Housing: Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ef5b32250d49a1b401c9dda54456d5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It might facilitate things if the House were to take question No. 12 now. Clearly, the Minister of Housing, who was in the House just a few minutes ago, has been detained outside somewhere and will, presumably, be back soon so that she is able to answer the questions. Of course, that would be a lot more satisfactory than\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca4c128cb7a64322831e96a6c0024570\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is leave being sought to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8395436ea3421e9ef239507978542e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot seek leave to do that; it would be by agreement of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e30eb0c4294b63bbc6ce370ecdec1c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know that you cannot do so. I am just wondering what the point is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f35c7930ab684cfba56266c8872e6657\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister left because she is due to catch a flight; she had to leave the Chamber. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d631c87fd2f34eac8a6646fc902a740e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now that we have established that members not in the Chamber are catching flights, could we please have the answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63f7380a5a74acb901a7f209547cec3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister of Housing stands by the statement made by the very talented and able former housing Minister in November 2006. Cases of subletting are very rare. Indeed, subletting accounted for just 0.06 percent of all tenancies last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210b80de2e78d4b6b962be1c056a91b91\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that through select committee processes we have discovered that another 44 new subletting scams have come to light so far this year; if so, were these cases serious, in her opinion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229322d2b683824a86ad652733c51b11a4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Any cases of fraud are serious, and are dealt with promptly and with due process of the law. I remind the House that when I was privileged to be housing Minister, in the very first case, I think, of subletting that that member brought to me, it was found that the tenant, Maxine Hardy, was in hospital and her brother was looking after the house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc3a40b3dbd4f1ebaedf3dc50544fde\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is the Labour Government doing to help house some of New Zealand\u2019s most needy families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220acb858d04d34012934d20c5a6a8718d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour-led Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b87ddfe73904e039f75aabe7709f46c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My primary question was fixed on subletting scams. The answer to that question was fixed on subletting scams. The member Lynne Pillay is moving well wide of the mark. Madam Speaker, you have never allowed me the scope to move around various Housing New Zealand Corporation management practices, when the question down on the Order Paper and subsequent answers have been specific. The member should not be able to ask a general question about the Housing New Zealand Corporation; it must be fixed on subletting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619cf4876ee8443aa610c67e786fd08f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could Lynne Pillay please repeat her supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a82a41810f4c2f9a751ee17a8ba6ce\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is the Labour Government doing to help house some of New Zealand\u2019s most needy families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295f0227ace5f427e91adb23e31986089\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now that I have had an opportunity to hear the full supplementary question, yes, I think that it could relate to the primary question. If I started interpreting supplementary questions very narrowly, we would probably not have many of them. Members should think very carefully about whether that is the ruling they wish me to give.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022530eba6805e64dc39ade6aaf841b14c2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I say with considerable pride as a member of the Labour-led Government that we have taken many steps to look after New Zealand\u2019s most needy families in the housing area. We have reintroduced income-related rents, which has made a profound difference to the thousands of families that are living in State houses and has lifted many of them out of poverty. In addition, we have added 7,793 homes to the housing portfolio stock, we have given out 3,000 Welcome Home Loans, we have launched a shared-equity pilot scheme, we have transformed urban communities like Aranui in Christchurch and Talbot Park in Glen Innes, we have modernised 5,100 properties, and we have done 17,300 retrofits. And so it goes on\u2014a list of achievements that a Government can be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421b3bb0d495435ebd8c287be3459c2f\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a \u201Cwild goose chase\u201D, given that, among the latest 44 scams, a New Lynn tenant illegally sublet a house for 8 years 6 months, a M\u0101ngere tenant for 8 years 3 months, another M\u0101ngere tenant for 5 years 8 months, and a Takapuna tenant for 5 years 6 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f625350bfe624e4fadc1119490ffe53e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I hope those are more genuine cases than that of poor old Maxine Hardy, whose case this member brought to the House 2 years ago. We found out that she was in hospital and her brother was looking after the house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250b632b982934d73b071284194019c95\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have the courage to tell all the needy families\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b295414f5e9a49e18da11deae2bfa224\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please rephrase the question. He knows that is not appropriate; he is not a new member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2aac2ce40024bdba2a2c783c5474156\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister tell all the needy families on the waiting list that subletting scams are a small problem, or does she think those families would have liked to move into one of those State houses over the last 8 years, instead of living in garages or caravans, or on the streets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11bb535a310462cb2f902fa842a2878\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can, with a lot of pride, say that we have added 7,793 houses to the Housing New Zealand Corporation portfolio, and I can, with shame for that member, say that his previous Government sold 13,000 of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d045a60beb4b949341dbe0be2d51af\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has illegal subletting increased year on year under Labour\u2019s watch, or is it that the corporation is now acting on cases of tenants who have been subletting illegally for up to 8 years, just because such cases are now being publicly highlighted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d68e36466f88471fa15728c03b0874e9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is clearly very sensitive. We are talking about 0.06 percent of tenancies. That is 0.06 percent too many, but in the greater context of the whole housing portfolio I think it is a very trivial problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c381e49cfa5540f78b1604cb2caae90d\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House whether the corporation has caught up with the high-profile sportsman who sublet his State house while he had a bach in the Bay of Islands; if it has caught up with him, what is the latest information on this case, does he still owe the taxpayer $32,650, and when will that issue be resolved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f0c9ba11a345539b2799c1ee688309\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that that particular individual is in court facing charges. As every member in this House knows, it is entirely inappropriate to talk about a case that is currently before the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc1e45cc134e4bb5b4029797c906de0d\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to table the estimates list of the 44 scams and their details\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2425aad1cda4b6fac25e8a1925e2ff7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb66b573f654884a9ac137447ae7469\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to table question time denials by the Minister of Housing that subletting rorts actually exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228111769f18b345b892d76110e96624e6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a853efcf4a495894674678324e97a9\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to table the committee transcript on the tenant who is before the court next week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac44eb4fbd74492a5fac2102c41f401\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea2038cb595e480699510c4c83096106\u0022\u003ECapital Markets Development Taskforce\u2014Announcement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022335d53e65ce94fc9b70ec0cf0d2b4d86\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce: Has she received any reports on the response to the announcement of the Capital Markets Development Taskforce; if so, what do they say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002221da1f4ace4d4594943df33c1b93bd0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221da1f4ace4d4594943df33c1b93bd0c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have. From those who genuinely want to see progress on adding depth and breadth to our capital markets, there has been an enormously positive response, especially in respect of the quality of the members of the task force and the level of expertise they will bring to the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537b4406c89f465eba95b113c1747f2a\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any reports as to why a former Minister of Commerce did not initiate such a brilliant proposal; and what response has there been to the Minister\u2019s statement that Labour\u2019s opposition to any sale of State-owned enterprises would never change, regardless of what the task force recommended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b17d5c85774299881f324c881f14ce\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I was actually very interested in the comment of the person who said Labour had shown its attitude to promoting investment in the capital markets by blocking the sale of Auckland airport this year, but then went on to say that he would not support the sale of State-owned assets, which seems somewhat contradictory. Of course, that is explained by the fact that both comments were made by the National Party\u2019s finance spokesperson, Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245bb5bf7521a439ea0bdfa293e342915\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Who has been appointed to the task force to specifically represent the interests of investors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227e6110686143a3814432256eace733\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The members of the task force have not been appointed to be representative. That was made very clear at the time, although I would highlight the fact that one of the members of the task force is the chief executive of our Superannuation Fund, which is a major investor in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e610945058f4ba7bee71ddce30dcaa1\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224edbbc6fb8d84713af9120ecb5a9794e\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd74fa068c4d42778bbf127504cca2ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd74fa068c4d42778bbf127504cca2ba\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. I am going to spend most of the debate today talking about the things that are not protected under any possible future National Government\u2014the things that are Kiwi. But one could not go a minute in this debate without referring to the dark looks, the shaking, the anger, and almost the tears of John Key today after Nick Smith made his intervention. I have never seen a member of Parliament looked at in such a dirty way by his or her leader in the House. I do not know whether Nick Smith did it deliberately\u2014maybe he did do it deliberately\u2014or whether he did it accidentally. What did they call those young boys over there? It was not the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022344f0162f2134b6590e75bb7b50b5fad\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The brat pack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc69a4e72e3450cbec3e695a58832c6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Whether it was part of the brat-pack undermining of John Key or whether it was totally accidental, John Key\u2019s knees were taken away from him by Nick Smith in the House today\u2014and we thought it was great. What is also really interesting is how John Key could not handle it. He got angry, he shook, and he started mouthing. It was a joy to behold from this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut that is not what this debate is about. This debate is about things Kiwi. It is about KiwiRail, it is about Kiwibank, and it is about KiwiSaver. It is about the things that the National Party in its slowly evolving policy\u2014slowly evolving, very slippery policy\u2014is not committed to. As the member of Parliament for Hutt South, I thought it was amazing that the National Party opposes spending $200,000 on looking at whether we could assemble locomotives in New Zealand. Why does it object to considering the question of putting locomotives together in New Zealand? I think it is a great idea. I do not know whether it can be done or whether the economics will work, but considering the question is something that I think is really good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI think it is amazing how the National Party - inspired websites have the Rt Hon James Brendan Bolger on them with\u2014do members know what title is underneath?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0206b35ed9e412595b5d52294c6d7da\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f895009bf34ac9a58ff4520f99daf9\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is \u201Ctraitor\u201D. That is what the National Party - inspired websites are saying about National\u2019s former leader. I think those members opposite need to have a look at someone like Mr Bolger who can look at the interests of New Zealand in the way he has. It is absolutely clear that having a working rail system is in the interests of New Zealand, and the only way of doing that is to have a Crown purchase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI thought it was very interesting that we are getting a pattern of privatisation. National says it is not going to sell assets\u2014that it is not going to sell Television New Zealand or the Accident Compensation Corporation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291226bfce70b40fc895c745ce2ab732a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Into several pieces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc912c89909045c59566f972b2643dd1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. But it will privatise the functions. National will not sell them but it will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3c9ba2959234a3095042ba47d8a2600\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022203feee7beac48a0ad86c223af4c2171\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it is called choice. National will privatise the function. It will not have a public broadcaster but will give the money to the overseas-owned TV3 instead. Well, that is an interesting approach. National will not have a New Zealand accident compensation system. Instead, National will give the resources to its donors from the Australian insurance companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIt is really interesting that National\u2019s tax proposals are now beginning to leak out. People who are low-income earners now know that National will be committed to those changes that are happening on 1 October but not to the ones scheduled to happen in the out-years. So low-income earners will get what they are going to get from Labour, but the National Party policy will be that there are no further tax changes for people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dc4c694e68046789b6a596eaac27b8b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ca835a6a1ef4593a224c49da9a18ba1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The member says \u201CRubbish!\u201D. It is very, very interesting that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef70a7ca17d64573bf7714366b5ffdfb\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: He knows everything, doesn\u2019t he!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc420ba91c89459eb6c0a21816133bcb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: He says he knows everything. Bill English has been consulting people, but not Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00221a6e112de7e74c4cbf9a1f5a29344885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a6e112de7e74c4cbf9a1f5a29344885\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E When inflation is heading to 5 percent and is gouging the budgets of many low-income New Zealanders, and when New Zealand businesses and particularly exporters who are trying to stay competitive so that they can employ New Zealanders are burdened with 4 percent domestic inflation for the last 5 years, Trevor Mallard is the best that Labour can do. His economic policy now amounts to a $200,000 gift to Trevor Mallard to try to save the Hutt South seat. When interest rates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdd94b8278443f3aa2d3d4f1cc88bc5\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Why does this member hate workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bebbe6238f64afea0f8d58f3f296e29\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member must hate workers, because under Labour interest rates have doubled. Mortgage interest rates are now twice what they were when Labour came into office, and Labour\u2019s solution to that is that member over there. Therefore, it is no wonder that consumer confidence and business confidence are lower than they have been for a long, long time\u2014the lowest for years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EHouse prices are not just not going up; they are dropping\u2014in some places, precipitously. We see news in the paper today that the performance of the Australian parent owners of some of our banks is now a real concern to financial markets, and what is Labour doing? Labour is mired in the workings of New Zealand First\u2019s finances. The Prime Minister has spent 10 days prevaricating and procrastinating over issues that she would normally deal with in a matter of a day or two. When public concern about law and order is higher than it has been for a long, long time because of a rash of violent crimes in Auckland, what is Labour doing? Labour is trading insults over who donated what to whom and when. Labour and New Zealand First pushed the Electoral Finance Act through Parliament. Why? Because they wanted transparency around big money in New Zealand politics. That is what they are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s flagship legislation, the emissions trading scheme, is now almost fatally caught up in the parliamentary process. We know that because the Leader of the House told us so today. When Labour has flagship legislation it wants pushed through, for which it needs New Zealand First\u2019s support, it is not in there negotiating the fine points of how the emissions trading scheme might deal with carbon; it is in there telling Winston\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bf91773ce7a4b33a3afdce82570f710\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: The member has a name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc40c1ee2ffb488fa9256ccc7bf5755a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Winston Peters\u2014it will do whatever it can to keep him out of trouble so that they might get his vote for the one piece of legislation that Helen Clark would like to claim as their legacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn short, the Government\u2014as has been the case for the last 18 months\u2014is not focusing on the issues that matter. It is focused on a whole set of preoccupations that are nothing to do with the real concerns of normal Kiwis, and that is why it is regarded as being out of touch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EHow does Labour think it feels to be one of those working-class voters, whom it thinks will vote for Labour but will not, when price rises are heading for 5 percent, when interest rates have doubled, and when house prices are dropping? Well, Labour does not care how they feel. What it cares about is how Mr Peters feels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELet us deal briefly with Mr Peters. It has now become clear that he did receive donations when he said he did not. That will be a surprise to the public. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of how that happened, it will be a surprise to them that when Labour and New Zealand First said that National members are the people who are influenced by big money, and that legislation must be passed to stop it, it turns out that Labour and New Zealand First members are the people getting half-million dollar and secret donations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222e27856c6684468bb892773b36cf550d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e27856c6684468bb892773b36cf550d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E Listeners will recall that the previous speaker, Mr English, who is the shadow finance Minister and the finance spokesperson for the Opposition, when last in Government was of course the Minister of Finance who cut the superannuation rate from 65 percent to 60 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the most important institutions that we have in this House is Hansard, and the Hansard record stands as a record of what we say. It enables members of the public, journalists, and members of Parliament to judge what is said today, and to compare it with what was said yesterday. It is one of the best ways in which we can judge the sincerity of what people say today, particularly as we approach elections, when some politicians are known to say what they think the public wants them to say rather than what they really believe. I want to concentrate today on some of the reasons why it is increasingly clear that members of the public are concerned that John Key and National members continually just say what they think the public wants to hear rather than what they really believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will start with Iraq. Lots of us were at meetings with John Key when he said New Zealand should be in Iraq. He was quoted as saying New Zealand was \u201Cmissing in action\u201D during the invasion of Iraq, yet this year he said \u201CNational wouldn\u2019t have sent troops to Iraq\u201D. Again, he is telling people what he thinks they want to hear and denying the true agenda. In respect of climate change he will say anything to win. He said in May 2005, and I am quoting from Hansard here, \u201Ceven if one believes in global warming\u2014and I am somewhat suspicious of it\u201D. That is a direct quote from John Key, the Leader of the Opposition. He now says \u201CI firmly believe in climate change and always have\u201D\u2014another incident where he was reinventing history and telling people what he thought they wanted to hear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe most recent time he was outed on his true agenda was in respect of accident compensation. There was no comment from the National Party on this issue until they were forced to comment in response to media queries, as a consequence of stories in the Australian media following comments to Merrill Lynch. They had told Merrill Lynch, and I quote from a Merrill Lynch report, that \u201CThe National Party has been cautious about its statements on the possible privatisation of the ACC market but are giving the insurance industry a strong message that it is a likely outcome if it wins the election\u201D. Having been clearly outed on that and not able to deny it\u2014because, of course, Mr Key is a former senior employee of Merrill Lynch\u2014National was forced to admit its privatisation agenda in respect of accident compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOther areas are of increasing concern to New Zealand voters, and that is why they are increasingly concerned about this hidden agenda. The next I will mention is the cost of going to the doctor. Tony Ryall is the National Party spokesperson on health. He is a front-bench spokesperson. What did he say? He said that National will not cap the cost of doctors\u2019 visits. His words were, in fact, \u201CWe don\u2019t support Labour\u2019s fees control system. We\u2019ll be knocking it on the head\u201D. That is the true National agenda. National members subsequently denied it, but that is their true agenda from their health spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELet us look at student loans. Student loans were said by both Bill English and John Key\u2014and I quote John Key\u2014to be \u201Can unaffordable \u2026 and irresponsible cost to the country\u201D. Now they say they will keep them, but we know about their promises to students. The last time National was seeking election Lockwood Smith made promises, said he would resign if the party did not keep them, and then broke those promises but did not resign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELet us look at superannuation rates and eligibility. Within the last couple of years both Bill English and John Key, in their responsibility as finance spokespeople, have said that the eligibility is too generous for superannuation in New Zealand and that we need to tighten up. National members were the ones who cut the superannuation rate from 65 percent of the average wage to 60 percent for a married couple; they would do it again. That is their true agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELet us look at what they would do in respect of education. John Key says there will be more money for private schools; Anne Tolley says there will be no more money for state schools. She said that to a principals\u2019 association. That is on record and that is the true agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELet us look at KiwiSaver. It is a flagship policy for Labour and very important economically to increase our savings and the depth of our capital markets. Kate Wilkinson is on record as saying that National would have no employer contribution; John Key says \u201COh, no, no, no; that is not our true agenda.\u201D But then what do we hear? We have another ideological burp\u2014the truth from Shane Ardern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022fef44794d1cf49c3bb5ca840df79747d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fef44794d1cf49c3bb5ca840df79747d\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Personal privacy is a highly valued asset that affords the individual a set of boundaries to protect his or her personal time and personal space. Recently a very public itch has developed over the invasion into our private lives by telemarketers. Typically telemarketers ring at times when one is most likely to be at home, which is the 6 p.m. to 10 p.m., after-work downtime, or during one\u2019s precious weekends. If one lives in Auckland or another main centre, the problem is unrelenting, with people reporting four calls in a weekend from the same company. The callers often will not acknowledge who they are, even when asked; they will pose as market researchers; ask for 5 minutes of one\u2019s time, but take 20; and will not respect one\u2019s clear and polite message of lack of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EA voluntary register has been set up by the New Zealand Marketing Association, but a large number of telemarketers are not members, and I have received many complaints from constituents who are still dealing with a barrage of calls, despite making the effort to sign up on the register. In May last year, United Future asked the Privacy Commissioner to give some thought to the problem. Last week she released a report from the commission, in which it surveyed developments internationally and in New Zealand over the last 4 years, to update and modernise our privacy laws. Amongst the three recommendations is the idea of establishing a national \u201CDo Not Call\u201D database, similar to those set up in other jurisdictions like Australia and the United States of America. In Australia, the register has been so popular that on the day it went live, it crashed, due to being inundated by applications. In the United States of America, 145 million people signed up in 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe register would apply to all profit-making organisations, and would give telemarketers a number of working days, after a person registered, in which to become compliant before a series of fines could be imposed. Last week, talkback radio callers were very responsive to the suggestion of a New Zealand register; the New Zealand Herald ran a poll and had over 4,000 voters cast their opinion, with 96 percent in favour of a register. It is interesting that the Government has already moved to introduce an amendment bill on one of the three recommendations made by the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, but on this issue of a \u201CDo Not Call\u201D register it has been strangely quiet. So too, in an election year, the National Party has been strangely silent, despite the fact there is huge public demand for this choice regarding the volume of telemarketing that people are on the receiving end of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIn the last 10 days, one of the astonishing aspects of the response to United Future\u2019s call for the Government to establish a \u201CDo Not Call\u201D register, is the personal stories I have heard not just from the general public, but from members of the media who have been interviewing me, and from members in this House as well, all adding to the damning evidence against this unacceptably intrusive approach taken by many telemarketers. One member of this House told me of receiving a call just last weekend from a telemarketer who refused to answer questions as to whether he or she was in fact a telemarketer. Eventually the member was forced to hang up, only to receive a call 2 hours later from this telemarketer\u2019s supervisor demanding an apology for his staff member, who was offended at being hung up on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ETelemarketers have had plenty of time to get a voluntary register to work effectively. It is now time for this House to scratch the public itch, and to strengthen our privacy legislation to ensure it is much more relevant to our 21st century context. The call is now out to all political parties to make clear their positions and to let the public know whether they are going to support the call for a register. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221d74470eb1e0483f96eb31cf84c7cfb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d74470eb1e0483f96eb31cf84c7cfb2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E What a sad sight it was to see the Prime Minister stand in the House today and take no fewer than eight questions from other members asking her to extol the virtues of the Rt Hon Winston Peters in his capacity as Minister of Foreign Affairs for this country. What a sad day it is when the Prime Minister simply casts aside one of the documents that make up the constitution of New Zealand\u2014the Cabinet Manual\u2014and says \u201Cit is not a rule book; it is just a guide\u201D. No one will forget that after the last election it was the Rt Hon Winston Peters who instigated the changes to the Cabinet Manual that would enable him to take the position he has today. This is a man who touts himself as being one of the great parliamentarians of our age\u2014a man who never hesitates to take an opportunity in this House to explain to other members how long he has been here, how much he knows about the place, and how much he claims to respect the institution of Parliament. Yet his very behaviour, not only after the last election but now, as has been revealed in the last few days, in the acceptance of a donation from Mr Owen Glenn, which was not disclosed, shows his utter and complete contempt for the parliamentary process that operates in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ETo have the Prime Minister spending her days working out how she can answer such a barrage of questions requiring complimentary statements about Mr Peters shows what a dreadful state the Government has got itself into. Everyone knows when they go outside of this place that New Zealanders are generally finding life a little difficult at the moment; that New Zealanders from one end of the country to the other are questioning just how secure they are as they go about their daily activities, only to pick up the morning newspaper to see more violent assaults, more murders, more crime, and all those other things that threaten the security of families in this country. The Prime Minister, sitting in the top office of the Beehive, is spending her mornings working out how she will say ever more complimentary things about the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELet us think for just a minute about what the issue is here. The issue is that under our system Ministers are supposed to stay completely free of any influence whatsoever\u2014completely free of any influence from those who might be advantaged by any particular law change or other such. This country has, for about 25 years now, progressively moved to a situation whereby the separation between the Government and the governance and running of various activities that are part of being in Government have been separated from Ministers so that there can be no question about the way in which a Minister delivers in a policy area for which he or she is responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis donation, which has been acknowledged by Winston Peters, has exposed the raw underbelly of New Zealand politics and some of the weaknesses that can be in the system. One of the great protections has always been the Cabinet Manual, which allows the Prime Minister to demand a certain standard of behaviour from members of the executive. Today the Prime Minister cast that aside and simply said: \u201CIt is not a book that sets down rules; it is simply a guide.\u201D So the behaviour of members of Parliament who become members of the executive is not prescribed in any rule, it would seem, but is simply found in a guide. The Prime Minister is the only person who can alter the Cabinet Manual, and the Prime Minister has discretion about what sort of behaviour is acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThat is the nub of the problem we have. Mr Peters spent months and months saying he never received a donation\u2014only, apparently, to find out last Friday that, yes, he had. Then he went out and said: \u201CBut it wasn\u2019t for me\u201D. But it was! When someone gets a legal bill, it is his or her responsibility to pay it. For Winston Peters to say that he did not know where that money came from is completely and utterly unbelievable. It is irresponsible, and what is worse he is destroying the credibility of this Parliament by continuing to stick to that line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u002245a6fc412c93447e94f2dbd089005b2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245a6fc412c93447e94f2dbd089005b2a\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E Otir\u0101, kei te Kaihaut\u016B t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u016B whakah\u012Bh\u012B tonu au i te mea r\u0101 ko t\u0113nei Te Wiki o Te Reo M\u0101ori. N\u0101 runga i t\u0113n\u0101, kore e taea e t\u0113n\u0101 ki te wero i te tuar\u0101 o t\u0113nei tangata \u0101-waha o Winitana. Mihi tonu atu au ki a ia ki te matenga ake o t\u014Dna whaea kua tuku atu nei ki te k\u014Dp\u016B o te whenua i ng\u0101 r\u0101 kua taha ake nei. N\u014D reira, n\u0101 runga i t\u0113n\u0101, ka mihi ake ki a ia me t\u014Dna wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EHoki mai r\u0101 ki te kaupapa i hui ai t\u0101tou i roto i te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi. T\u016B whakah\u012Bh\u012B tonu au i te \u0101huatanga o te kaupapa e p\u0101 ana ki t\u014D t\u0101tou reo. N\u0101 runga i t\u0113n\u0101, ka m\u014Dtini hoki au ki ng\u0101 mema o te Whare kia k\u014Drero M\u0101ori katoa ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e whai muri mai i ahau i t\u0113nei w\u0101. M\u0101 te mema m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 takiw\u0101 o \u014Ctaki, te mema makawe whero a Darren Hughes hei tautoko i taku m\u014Dtini. N\u0101 te katoa o te Whare nei e k\u012B, \u0101e, kua oti r\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I stand proud because this is M\u0101ori Language Week. Because of that, no one can verbally attack Winston to his face, but to his back. But I do acknowledge him in the loss of his mother, who passed away recently, and express condolences to his family, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI come back to the business and the reason why we are assembled here in the House today. I remain proud in respect to our language, and as a consequence propose a motion that all members of the House who speak after me should do so totally in M\u0101ori. The member from that electorate of \u014Ctaki, the red-haired Darren Hughes, will second my motion. The whole House says, yes, that is done!]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI will take a couple of minutes to translate what I have said. I have listened to the debate and the challenge on the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Rt Hon Winston Peters. I have nothing to criticise him for, this week. This is a very sad week for him and for his family, with the passing of his mum. I have one thing to say to Winston: \u201CNg\u0101 mihi aroha\u201D\u2014my sincere condolences. All I expect from him this week is to k\u014Drero M\u0101ori. I say that to every member of this House, and to that end I would move a motion that everybody who speaks in this House, after I sit down, must speak M\u0101ori. I am sure the member for Otaki, the Hon Darren Hughes, would support my motion, because he is a very good M\u0101ori speaker. I think he is from that tribe called \u201CNg\u0101ti Panewhero\u201D\u2014the people with red hair! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EN\u0101 runga i t\u0113n\u0101, kei te Kaihaut\u016B, mihi kau ana ki a t\u0101tou. Otir\u0101, hoki mai au ki te kaupapa o te R\u014Dp\u016B N\u0101hinara. T\u0113nei taku wero ki a r\u0101tou, kei hea r\u0101tou e t\u016B ana i runga i te Tiriti o Waitangi? He aha o t\u014D r\u0101tou kaupapa kia wh\u0101rikihia ki waenganui i iwi o te motu kia m\u0101rama tonu ai, kei hea r\u0101tou e t\u016B ana? Kei hea \u014D r\u0101tou mema M\u0101ori? A H\u014Driana mai r\u0101 i Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. A Tau H\u0113nare mai r\u0101 i Te Tai Tokerau. K\u012Bhai r\u0101tou te hara mai ki roto i te Whare ki te whakamanahia i t\u014D r\u0101tou reo, t\u014D r\u0101ua reo, t\u014D t\u0101tou reo. N\u014D reira, karanga atu ki a r\u0101tou hoki mai r\u0101 ki te k\u014Drero kia m\u0101rama ai te R\u014Dp\u016B N\u0101hinara, he M\u0101ori tonu r\u0101tou. Kei a r\u0101tou te wairua o t\u014D t\u0101tou reo, kei a r\u0101ua te mana o t\u014D t\u0101tou reo kei roto i t\u0113r\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B t\u014Drangap\u016B, te R\u014Dp\u016B N\u0101hinara.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[Because of that, Mr Assistant Speaker, I congratulate us. Indeed, I come back to the National Party\u2019s policy. This is my challenge to National members: where do they stand in respect of the Treaty of Waitangi? What part of their policy will they place before the people of the country so that it is clear to them what National\u2019s position is? Where are National\u2019s M\u0101ori members\u2014Georgina te Heuheu of Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, and Tau Henare of the north? They have not come into the House to honour their collective language, Georgina\u2019s and Tau\u2019s language, and our language. So my call is for them to come back to explain so that it is clear to National they are still M\u0101ori, that they have the spirit of our language, that Georgina and Tau have control over their language in that political party, National.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EOnce again I give a translation on my own behalf. I just say that this is a very, very significant week for the M\u0101ori language. The language has a great history, and I stand proud in the House this afternoon speaking in te reo, but I have to ask the question of the National Party, and I should be asking it of most parties, that although there are two significant, prominent M\u0101ori members in that party I have yet to hear them stand in this House and honour the M\u0101ori language. I hear them speak M\u0101ori a lot outside but I do not hear a lot of it in here. So I ask the National Party where it stands. Where does it stand in terms of the commitment to the development of the M\u0101ori language and M\u0101ori development generally? I do not see it, I do not hear it, and out there in the electorates people are asking what we stand for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EOn that note\u2014ka hoki au ki te reo M\u0101ori kia haere tonu ng\u0101 wero ki ng\u0101 mema o te Whare. N\u014D reira, hoki taku mahara ki te K\u0101wangatanga Tuatoru Reipa i raro iho nei i te Pirimia o t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101, a Norman Kirk. N\u0101na te reo i whakamanahia i roto i te Whare, tae atu r\u0101 ki te K\u0101wanatanga Reipa tuawh\u0101, i raro r\u0101 i a David Lange me ng\u0101 Minita M\u0101ori, koir\u0101 ko te H\u014Dnore Koro W\u0113tere n\u0101na i whakamanahia te reo M\u0101ori i roto i te Whare, hei reo tuarahi m\u014D te motu. N\u0101 runga i t\u0113n\u0101, ka tipu haere, ka pakeke haere ng\u0101 tamariki i roto i ng\u0101 k\u014Dhanga reo, kei roto i ng\u0101 kura kaupapa, e k\u014Drerohia nei e te reo. I t\u0113nei w\u0101, he wero an\u014D t\u0101ku nei ki t\u0113n\u0101 tangata e noho atu r\u0101, ki te m\u0101ngai k\u014Drero m\u014D ng\u0101 take ker\u0113me m\u014D te R\u014Dp\u016B N\u0101hinara, t\u0113n\u0101 koe Chris. Kei te m\u014Dhio tonu au, ko koe r\u0101 te tangata kai te hiahia hoki o te R\u014Dp\u016B N\u0101hinara kia t\u016B hei Minita m\u014D ng\u0101 Take Ker\u0113me. Taku an\u014D ki te wero i a koe, kai hea koe e haere ana, kei koe e t\u016B ana i roto i \u0113nei t\u016B\u0101huatanga, te \u0101hua nei kei te tamariki tonu koe. K\u0101ore koe e piki ake ki ng\u0101 teitei rangatira p\u0113r\u0101 r\u0101 i a T\u0101kuta Michael Cullen. Kei a ia te mana, kei a ia te tautoko huri noa te motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[So I go back to speak in M\u0101ori to resume the challenges to members of the House. My thoughts go back to the third Labour Government under the Prime Minister of that period, Norman Kirk. He authorised te reo in the House, as did the fourth Labour Government under David Lange, with M\u0101ori Ministers, namely the Hon Koro W\u0113tere, who sanctioned te reo M\u0101ori in the House, and as a second official language throughout the land. Because of that, children in k\u014Dhanga reo and kura kaupapa where M\u0101ori is spoken emerged and matured. At this time, I have a challenge to that person sitting over there, the Opposition spokesperson on treaty negotiations: greetings to you, Chris; I understand that you are the person from the National Party who wants to stand as Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations. My challenge once again to you is: where are you going, where do you stand in these circumstances? It seems that you are still a novice. You are not yet at the highest levels that Dr Michael Cullen is at. He has the standing and support throughout the land in these matters.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI say to the National Party that I have heard on the grapevine\u2014in fact, I have heard an announcement\u2014that Chris Finlayson will be the National Party\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi spokesperson and that he will lead the Treaty claims process. I wonder whether he can fit the shoes. Can he do all that work that Dr Michael Cullen has materialised, in just a few months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b06efe65dbb480da05be954a9c7c35f\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a secret ballot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b79cf486bf4e95b20843b57cd13243\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: A secret ballot! Then it is the worst-kept secret I have ever known. One thing is for sure\u2014the member who interjected is gone out of Wanganui. I was there the other day and I tell members that he is gone\u2014he will be gone by lunchtime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe National Party has a lot of challenges ahead of it. Labour has a strong track record in terms of M\u0101ori development, and the challenge is going out to National Party members. When they go around the traps they should not only say National will do this and that, and will carry on with what Labour has done, but they should tell people something new, because they are waiting to hear. They know that Chris Finlayson cannot hold his own in the room with M\u0101ori leaders. They will eat him alive and spit him out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EN\u0101 runga i t\u0113n\u0101, kei te Kaihaut\u016B, koinei taku k\u014Drero ki a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei w\u0101, whakamanahia r\u0101 te reo M\u0101ori i ng\u0101 w\u0101 katoa, kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[On that note, Mr Assistant Speaker, this is what I say to us at this time: honour te reo M\u0101ori at all times. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022196c3c7539fe4943b8587b8fab858609\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022196c3c7539fe4943b8587b8fab858609\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E The people of New Zealand would like a Government that actually is interested in governing. People are dealing with price rises for petrol. They are dealing with inflation at 4 percent and going up. They are dealing with double the interest rates for the mortgages that they had when Labour came into office. They are dealing with house prices that have tumbled\u2014in some areas of my electorate by over $100,000. All the equity has been wiped off people\u2019s homes. That is what they are dealing with, and instead what they have from this Government and this Prime Minister is a Government that is intent to do nothing else except cling on to power. Michael Cullen summed it up the other week when he said that this is all about power, and, by goodness, that showed exactly what this Government is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat we have now is a Prime Minister who, in the last few days, has spent all of question time trying to get around the obvious. She has answered question after question\u2014patsy questions\u2014from New Zealand First about the wonderful statements about Winston Peters. It sounded like a eulogy, frankly. What we have now is a Prime Minister who will not deal with this issue decisively. She dealt with Lianne Dalziel decisively, once she was found to have misled the media. She dealt with that, eventually. She dealt with David Parker decisively. He resigned as Attorney-General. She dealt with Ruth Dyson decisively when she was picked up on a drink-driving charge. But she did not deal with Taito Phillip Field decisively. In fact, Taito Phillip Field must be wondering why it is, while he is facing corruption charges, that we are now talking about this matter in the House. She did not deal with David Benson-Pope decisively. His career is now over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThat is one of the awful things. While she is going around saying: \u201CI want to cling to power. I need to do everything I can to support Mr Peters.\u201D, what she is actually doing is destroying any hope for his career. In fact, one of the things I heard yesterday from the Prime Minister was that this money was paid into the trust account\u2014this account for Mr Henry\u2014and that it was collected as a fighting fund for legal fees. That is not Mr Henry\u2019s version. The reason it is not Mr Henry\u2019s version is that Mr Henry does not have a trust account. I understand that members of the House might not understand this, but he is a barrister sole. One of the things about barristers is that they do not have trust accounts. They are not audited. They are not subject to Law Society rules about trust accounts. The reason is that they do not hold other people\u2019s money. They simply render an account and it gets paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have never, in my 20-odd years as a lawyer and in my time with the Auckland District Law Society and the New Zealand Law Society, once come across a situation where a barrister\u2019s job is to ring up people in Monaco and ask them to pay $100,000 into a fee\u2019s account. I have never once heard anything like that. I have never once had that happen, or heard of it\u2014and I have sat for years on the complaints committee of the Auckland District Law Society. I can tell those members opposite that not once did we ever hear anything about barristers ringing up trying to solicit money for their clients\u2019 fees. Never have I heard of barristers ringing up soliciting money for their clients\u2019 grocery accounts, or the car loan. Nor have I ever heard about them ringing up bank managers and asking them whether they would like to pay off a loan. It just does not happen in the real world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe people in my electorate will be wondering how come it is that they have had $100,000 wiped off the value of their $400,000 house, which is now worth $300,000 and is all taken up with a mortgage, while we have a Government more concerned with clinging to power than what is happening for those ordinary good Kiwis who pay the taxes that pay for Winston Peters\u2019 travel, and that pay for those people there on the Government benches. The people in my electorate wonder about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat we have now from this Government is the so-called new standard of performance. That is what Helen Clark promised in 1999. She said that we would have a new standard of accountability under a Labour Government. My goodness, have we seen that? We certainly have. We have seen a new standard\u2014a new low standard. Today we had Helen Clark stand up here in Parliament and tell us that the Cabinet Manual, which is there to stop any sense or implication of corruption, was just a guide. They are not actually rules apparently, even though they are talked about as rules. No, they are not really rules; they are now a guide. That is the new depth that this Government has sunk to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002249e5d1f36e2043258c3ccb9493834240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249e5d1f36e2043258c3ccb9493834240\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to clarify with you about speaking times in this debate. I have been using a stopwatch on the speakers, and with my colleague Judith Collins you cut her at exactly the 5 minutes. But I timed the previous Labour speaker, Mita Ririnui, and he went for over 6 minutes before you stopped him. I want to know why members of the Labour Party get such a long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebdd6ecb7a04479b832d84a6fbb732ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebdd6ecb7a04479b832d84a6fbb732ea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Williamson, I would have thought you have been here long enough to understand that it is M\u0101ori Language Week. Normally what would happen is that the member\u2019s speech would be interpreted by the interpreter and the time taken off. In this case Mr Mita Ririnui decided to do the interpretation himself, and he is entitled to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022d33e7508e45d4d38bc78bf1cb8832770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d33e7508e45d4d38bc78bf1cb8832770\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E E te Rangatira o te Whare ka nui te mihi ki a koe i t\u0113nei ahiahi i roto i Te Wiki o Te Reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E[To the Assistant Speaker of the House, it is an honour indeed to greet you this afternoon during M\u0101ori Language Week.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge that it is M\u0101ori Language Week and I thank my colleague the Hon Mita Ririnui on behalf of all the members of \u201CNg\u0101ti Makawe Whero\u201D for his invitation to complete this speech in M\u0101ori , but I am afraid my talents do not extend quite that far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI would like to express, though, my proud pleasure and to say that I have really enjoyed over the last 6 years the privilege of representing Otaki in our Parliament. Labour has governed at every stage with a plan for the future of our country and also for the electorate that I have the privilege of representing. I know that my community is in a better position than it was before Labour came to office; it is a better place to live, there are more opportunities for our young people and our families, there is more security for our older people, and we have better transport on the way. We have been a good Government and we deserve the chance to put our case to the country in this election, based not only on our record but on what our plan for the future will be. I am looking forward to that. I am relishing the chance to do that because I know we have had the courage to make the judgments that are required in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EPolitics is not just about sitting around and knocking the hell out of members on the other side of the House and turning up 5 years later to say \u201CLook we agreed to that a long time ago.\u201D, it is about saying on the day \u201CHere\u2019s what we will do for you right now.\u201D There is no doubt in my mind that when it has come to the critical times for judgment in our country in the last 9 years Labour has been on the right side of those judgment calls that have had to be made, and our political opponents who seek to replace us have been wrong at the time, wrong to oppose, and then finally turned up half-hearted down the track to say \u201CMe too, please include me in that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EIt does not matter what policy one looks at, but I have a few here I would like to show members. KiwiSaver is a visionary policy; Labour voted for it, National voted against it. Working for Families made sure that three out of four of our families are assisted, and many families in my constituency pay no income tax at all with the Working for Families package, and National voted against that. Cheaper doctors\u2019 visits: the cost of going to the doctor today is half of what it would be if we were not sitting on the Treasury benches; Labour was in favour, National was against. We have just marked one year of our policy for 3 and 4-year-olds to get 20 free hours in our kindergartens and pre-schools; it was voted for by Labour, and voted against by National. One of the great things we have done is taken the minimum wage in our country from $7 to $12 over our 9 years in office, putting $200 a week into the hands of the poorest workers in our economy; Labour was in favour, National was against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhen judgment counts and one has to make decisions on the day about policy it is Labour that has been on the right side for working families in our country, and National has been on the wrong side. The ultimate judgment test that our Government has had to make\u2014the ultimate most important decision we had to make\u2014was whether to be involved in the war in Iraq. The National Party was wrong on whether we should be involved. The National Party got the judgment wrong, it was absolutely incorrect, and Labour took the right position. That is the way we should be remembering how we have taken our approach to politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWe know that all around the world right now judgment is required. Leadership and experience is required with the difficult issues we face. There are fuel challenges, food challenges, and credit-crunch challenges with high interest rates all around the world. Bill English talked about what a problem those challenges were for New Zealand, offered no solution, and pretended that New Zealand was in some sort of isolated bubble while these issues were affecting the rest of the world. These are global challenges but we will respond to them. We will develop policies to make sure that our communities and our people have the chance to step up to the plate in that respect. We have the experience and judgment to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003ENational members say \u201COh, it\u2019s just time for a change, and that\u2019s our only campaign slogan.\u201D Their only basis for this election is \u201CWell, Labour\u2019s had 9 years, it\u2019s about time we had a go.\u201D Labour is asking National members: change to what? Because on those critical issues for families, businesses, and communities in New Zealand they were wrong when it counted in this Parliament and they will be wrong again. We have had the extraordinary thing this week where the National Party did actually release some policy over the adjournment. But its members do not want to talk about its policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EYesterday in the House we had questions on accident compensation\u2014a massive area of Government spending that affects the lives of hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders every year. The National members sat silent all throughout it. When the policy about 20 free hours for our 3 and 4-year-old children to get education was debated in Parliament yesterday the National members sat silent. They did not want to talk about it because they are taking the word \u201Cfree\u201D out of the free early childhood education policy. Why would one do that? The only reason one would do that would be because one wants to get rid of the concept of 20 free hours for our kids when they are getting their early childhood education. It is the same for accident compensation; privatise a scheme that people come from all around the world to look at! That is the kind of judgment National members are making but they do not want to talk about it\u2014privatisation will be one of the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhen National members are forced to talk about things\u2014because we know the expensive consultants Crosby/Textor are saying \u201CDo not let any of them talk about policy.\u201D\u2014John Key, as leader, just smiles, is bland, and takes pot-shots at Labour. When National members have to answer they are all over the place. When Chris Tremain talked about the accident compensation policy on the Back Benchers programme last week he was a blithering mess. If the National Party wants to keep putting up people like that I welcome it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022d95525884ab44de784aeb00e0884bb3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d95525884ab44de784aeb00e0884bb3c\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start by referring members of this House to some statements that the Rt Hon Helen Clark made in the run-up to becoming the Prime Minister. In November 1999 she said: \u201CIf we\u2019re elected to Government, then my commitment is that we will deliver a Government people can trust. It will be open and it will be accountable.\u201D She said on 23 April 1999: \u201CMy Government will set new standards both in terms of behaviour and performance so that we govern for the people and are accountable to them.\u201D In February 1995 she said: \u201CThe style of Government I will lead as Prime Minister will be open and participatory.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI welcome all those comments from Helen Clark, but I do not believe New Zealanders can stomach for one moment the claims we heard in the House today that the Cabinet Manual is but a guide about performance. I was a Minister for 9 years, and I knew that that was the rule book\u2014that was the absolute rule book. If one broke that Cabinet Manual rule book one was gone, and therefore we read it very carefully. I know that Ministers in the Labour Party will have read it very carefully. One is not to accept gifts. One is not to accept donations beyond certain levels without declaring them unless one is happy for one\u2019s career to be over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EUnder the heading of what gets \u201Ccuriouser and curiouser\u201D, I want to ask a couple of questions. Mr Peters claims he did not know about the $100,000 paid towards his legal fees from Mr Owen Glenn. Until Friday, when he was told, he said he did not know. Well, here is my first question. Mr Peters went on television back in February and held up a big sign saying \u201CNo\u201D. He said he did not receive money from Owen Glenn. Do members not believe that his lawyer, or his party president, or somebody in the New Zealand First Party would have got to Mr Peters within 5 seconds of the finish of that television interview and said: \u201CWinston, Winston, please don\u2019t pursue that line any further, you may regret it.\u201D? I have to say that if the party president or Brian Henry did not get to Mr Peters straight away after that interview, they were setting him up, because Mr Peters from that point on kept denying it. Those people could have ended his misery any time from February until today by saying \u201CWinston, excuse me. Best you don\u2019t do that again.\u201D Last week, there he was at the airport saying: \u201CI do not have my \u2018No\u2019 sign with me but what part of \u2018No\u2019 don\u2019t you understand?\u201D. If that is not hanging a member out to dry, I do not know what is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EUnder the heading of \u201Ccuriouser and curiouser\u201D, how about the cheque that Dail Jones saw that went into the New Zealand First bank account? I have this quotation from him: \u201CI saw the money. It was somewhere between $10,000 and $100,000, probably closer to $100,000.\u201D He then said: \u201CI discovered the donation in the party\u2019s bank account in December, and I asked the bank where it came from and they could not tell me.\u201D Now, that means the bank is in breach of all the financial disclosure regulations in this country. Banks are not allowed to transact cheques of more than $10,000 without being able to trace where they came from. That is in order to stop money-laundering, crooked behaviour, and so on. So it is not possible that the bank could not tell Mr Jones where that cheque came from\u2014because it was over $10,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESuddenly the cheque disappeared again\u2014it was gone. Now we are told it went off to Mr Brian Henry\u2019s trust account. But as my colleague Judith Collins, who was a member of the Law Society\u2014in fact, she was president of the Auckland District Law Society\u2014said, barristers cannot hold trust accounts. So the money had to have gone somewhere else. I put it to members of the Labour Government that if they had a $300,000 mortgage and every month their statement came in saying the mortgage was still $300,000, until one day in came a statement that said it was only $200,000, they would want to know how that happened. They would want to know, and if a member still had money owing to his or her lawyer and suddenly the bill changed by $100,000, that member would want to know. The fact that Mr Henry left Mr Peters out to dry all this year by not telling him means that something rotten is afoot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00224b1a00c64afb496daf189f2841664069\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b1a00c64afb496daf189f2841664069\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E One of the key issues that has come up again today is the nexus between democracy and money. This has been an extremely troubling nexus for many, many years in Westminster System parliaments. The problem is twofold. On the one hand parties that represent large corporations with access to a lot of money are much more likely to get large amounts of money into their coffers, and hence be able to run better election campaigns. The other side of it is that if money comes into different parties\u2019 accounts, it is very difficult for us to know how it influences the things they do when they are in Government, particularly if we do not know that the money is coming into their accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThis is the problem with secret donations and the secret donations regime that we have in New Zealand. Currently someone can give up to $10,000 to a New Zealand political party and nobody has to know, even under the new law. The problem with that is quite simply this: how does a member of the public looking at it from the outside know that the decision making of that party, if it gets into Government, is not influenced by its donors? How do people know that the tax breaks the party gives or the grants it makes have not been influenced by the donations it has received? Under our system the public has no way of knowing, and that is exactly the problem. The nexus between democracy and money means that the voters of this country have no idea how the Government\u2019s decision making is being influenced by money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere was a further problem before, and that was the trusts that the National Party used at the last election campaign. The Electoral Finance Act, for all its benefits and problems, got rid of the ability to use trusts, which is a really, really positive thing. I think even some members of the National Party were pleased to see the trusts go, because they made National look pretty bad. But we have not got rid of the $10,000 limit, which is a problem. The Green Party thinks there should be a $1,000 limit on non-identified donations. If someone makes a donation over $1,000, then the identity of the donor should have to be identified to the public so that people know who is funding political parties. We also think there should be a cap on individual donations. People should not be able to give $500,000 to a political party, because that kind of sum has a tremendous impact on political parties. There should be a cap on how much any individual or corporation can actually give to political parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWe also think there needs to be some kind of partial public funding of political parties. One of the tragedies of the Electoral Finance Act is that we did not get partial public funding\u2014or any kind of public funding. That creates the problem whereby political parties are dependent on private donors, which is one of the key problems with our system. We also think\u2014and the Electoral Finance Act did provide for this\u2014there has to be some limits on non - political party actors. If there are not those limits, then the caps on other spending just do not work. We have seen that overseas. The Canadians have limits, and the British have limits on third-party spending; we have to have those caps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EMost of all, the Greens really want people to decide all of this. The Greens have been promoters of citizens\u2019 assemblies. A citizens\u2019 assembly is where randomly selected members of the public are called together to be consulted, if nothing more, about important matters that political parties are not the right ones to make decisions about. How on earth can we be the right ones to make decisions about the funding of political parties, when we are political parties? We have a fundamental conflict of interest. The best people to make these decisions are members of citizens\u2019 assemblies, whereby, as has been done in Canada on a number of occasions, people randomly chosen from each electorate come together to consider the questions that need to be considered, and make recommendations. Having a citizens\u2019 assembly, instead of this assembly, make key decisions or, at the very least, recommendations around how we should organise our political funding system seems to me the most sensible way to do it; it has been used extensively overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI also say\u2014and I realised this today\u2014that apparently Matthew Hooton, who is, of course, a big National Party supporter, has now come out in favour of partial public funding. I would hope that that would make National members rethink. The problem of public funding has come up today because of the relationship between New Zealand First and the racing industry, its position on sustainable fisheries, and all the rest of it. I will not revisit that now, but I will say that surely it is in all of our interests to have transparency about this matter, so that all these allegations are not swirling around New Zealand First as they are at the moment. Would it not be so much better if all of this was transparent and we knew who was funding New Zealand First, the National Party, the Labour Party, and the Greens? If the information was all out there, it would make things heaps better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfafb29df6924949813006526d515858\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfafb29df6924949813006526d515858\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E E te Kaihaut\u016B o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Huri noa i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa i te \u0101huatanga o t\u014D tatou reo e whakatairangatia ana, e whakamaharatia ana hei reo p\u016Bmau m\u014D Aotearoa i t\u0113nei w\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and to you also throughout our House this afternoon, in respect of the promotion and commemoration of our language at this time as a language of New Zealand for all times.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI greet my fellow parliamentarians and you, Mr Assistant Speaker, in M\u0101ori Language Week, and as a reminder that M\u0101ori is one of our official languages. Before I launch off into the less charming aspects of my speech\u2014because they are directed at the Opposition\u2014we should bear in mind that this is one of our official languages of Aotearoa, and it is kept alive as a consequence of the zeal and the interest of families to maintain bilingualism. All of my fellow M\u0101ori members of the House who are pursuing that\u2014my whanaunga Hone Harawira along with myself, and, indeed, Tau Henare\u2014have been, if not zealots in ensuring that our kids carry on the language, then very, very supportive of it becoming a reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is very sad that there has been an outbreak of amnesia from the other side of the House, in search perhaps\u2014and we see it on the front bench\u2014of some sort of analgesic. However, the reality is that they are holding unsuccessfully the proud member of Ng\u0101ti Wai, the leader of Aotearoa Tuatahi, to a level of accountability they refuse to observe themselves. Not for them the detection or revelation of the Waitemata Trust and its shadowy funders coming back from overseas to Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOf course, the crowning folly offered by Mr Key is, whilst he is chomping on Winston\u2019s hind leg\u2014presumably he is cocking the other one\u2014he refuses to rule out the fact that National mistakenly hopes it can work with him. In addition, National refuses to acknowledge that it has been the recipient of handsome amounts of lucre. But why will those members not observe the same level of laxity in relation to Mr Peters that they apply to themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9cafcde92624b66b34be472b412d54d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but two members, who do not have the floor, are interjecting on each other. That is not permitted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb51f8d5b54e4bd9817aa41e99b3d075\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I follow Mr Williamson, who unfortunately has left the Chamber. Mr Williamson spoke before I did. He recited a potted but stilted version of history. If there is one group of politicians whom the public associate with furtiveness in relation to funding their activities, it is the members on that side of the House. They attack Winston Peters, forgetting that it was litigation that first brought him here. If any of them go out and repeat, as Matthew Hooton was unwisely doing\u2014soon, no doubt, to be at his cost\u2014ridiculous, unsubstantiated, dangerously libellous things about Winston Peters on National Radio, etc., then they will face the full force of that litigiousness again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOf course, the last thing that our colleagues from the other side of the House want to do is talk about who is going to pay for their excessive promises in relation to tax cuts, and who is going to pay in relation to responding to the special-interest groups\u2014obviously, Australian insurance companies, which is a joke. They complain about the anaemic nature of the New Zealand capital markets. They complain about the large numbers of Kiwis who are going across the Tasman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe first asset they line up to sell to the Aussies is one of the most successful, flourishing enterprises, with a very handsome endowment of capital invested in a wide array of destinations, employing some very competent New Zealanders. The first thing they will do is gouge it, then they will bleach it, and then they will hock it off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI hope that the person who leads, along with us, the attack to stop that from happening is our friend the co-leader of the Green Party. He, if anyone, would know the dangers of what could happen if we let too many of them loose, and I am sure he could speak at length on that matter. However, the first thing National will do is destroy accident compensation. That is why it will not be successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00229091834f0f2c42869e3abd4dc5e009a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229091834f0f2c42869e3abd4dc5e009a1\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E That was another vintage contribution from Mr Shane Jones: so light on substance, so lacking in detail, and so short of the facts that matter. When we listen to the contributions of Labour MPs we can understand why Nandor Tanczos said that the general debate each week was the absolute pits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe deepest depths of those pits were reached today by Mita Ririnui, who launched a personal attack on me. This is the person who appeared on Willie Jackson\u2019s TV programme with Georgina te Heuheu and me a few weeks ago and said that National had never voted for a Treaty settlement. He has been on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee since 2002 and knew the real record, but he said that none the less, because that is the party line that the Goebbels department on the ninth floor instructed him to give. That is the standard of that Minister. He is washed up, useless, and abusive. He is a person who is going nowhere, like the preceding Ministers in charge of Treaty of Waitangi negotiations. The current Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, who has sat in Cabinet throughout the 9 years of this Government and saw the lamentable performance of his two predecessors, is in just as much trouble as his two useless predecessors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs my deputy leader said, there are huge issues facing this country at the moment, such as rising unemployment, and law and order problems. [Interruption] For the benefit of the Minister of Justice, who knows nothing, be it about Rongotai or P trials, does she realise that P trials are so out of control in the courts in Auckland that they last for 3 months, tying up huge resources? These are the problems that we in the National Party are anxious and, indeed, zealous to address, yet this Government is expending huge amounts of energy trying to explain away the financial issues of New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI frankly was appalled to hear the Prime Minister this afternoon dismiss the Cabinet Manual as a mere guide. I contrast those weasel words with her firm statement in 1999 that if Labour were elected to Government, her commitment was that Labour would deliver a Government that people could trust\u2014it would be open and it would be accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIf we look at the firm and decisive way that the Cabinet Manual was employed to deal with various Ministers in the early years of this Government, and contrast it with what has been going on today, we see the difference. Dover Samuels had serious allegations made against him and was immediately required to stand down, though he was subsequently reinstated. His real crime, of course, was being a paid-up member of the George Hawkins faction of the Labour Party. As Judith Collins said, Ruth Dyson was required to resign her portfolios immediately when charges were laid against her, but she was subsequently reinstated. The same applied to Marian Hobbs, Phillida Bunkle, and Lianne Dalziel. John Tamihere was required to resign over allegations he had misled the public about a payout from his former employer. David Benson-Pope was not required to resign immediately. The facts dripped out, and Labour certainly paid the price for that. Taito Phillip Field was sacked after the last election. There was an inquiry, and again the facts dripped out, and a Queen\u2019s Counsel was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a very flawed report. Then David Parker had allegations made against him and was required to resign his portfolios immediately. He was reinstated to Cabinet as Minister of Energy and Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues when he was cleared. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThat is the appropriate way to deal with these things, yet the standards have been lowered in recent times. I cannot better the excellent contributions of Mr Williamson and Mrs Collins, because they have raised a number of very important yet unanswered questions, particularly about Mr Henry\u2019s role in this affair. Why did not Mr Henry warn Mr Peters not to constantly say that there was no involvement? Where did the money go? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELianne Dalziel should listen very carefully, because this is a very good question that I would like her to answer. Where did the money go? Brian Henry did not have a trust account. Where did the money go? Of course, she is not prepared to answer that question. She is worried about answering it, because it is a fundamental question. What is the role of Mr Henry as a barrister in all this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c31e2b94f7b64a56b517d29aed482c59\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but I just refer members on my right to Speakers\u2019 rulings 57/3. Interjections are to be rare and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c6447acc4d4d34902ea5db6132595c\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: You are being very personal and nasty today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465dc7b9a6c14231ae93368f45a70dae\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: For obvious reasons, I am fond of the Minister of Justice on a personal level. But that is her stock response\u2014that I am being very nasty. What I am really doing is asking some very pertinent questions that she should do well to listen to. Mr Henry, as a barrister, cannot have a trust account, and that question remains unanswered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6f35fe190b548c8ac38a83b0f4668fa\u0022\u003ENew Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3ad0545d5e14b5cbefdc14dfa6b8c7c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e531581dd9b24ba0942b6b315f6ae896\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Tariff Act 1988\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1dcb0c16ca141f4b2e773638e6e576f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1dcb0c16ca141f4b2e773638e6e576f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Acting Minister of Trade):\u003C/span\u003E Today I am acting on behalf of the Minister of Trade, the Hon Phil Goff, who at this point is overseas representing New Zealand\u2019s interests in further trade talks. But I know that he would want me to convey to the Committee his gratitude for the work that was undertaken by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee in examining this bill, which was recently before the select committee, and for its recommendation to this House that there be no amendment to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI think that members of this House have, in the main, worked very constructively on this bill, knowing that it will have a major impact on businesses in New Zealand. It allows our free-trade agreement with China to come into force. The signing of the agreement with China is a very significant achievement for this Labour-led Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EBefore the free-trade agreement was signed with China our exporters faced extra costs and charges when they tried to sell their products and services to the Chinese market, which is a very large market for us. They faced tariffs of up to 20 percent, making it harder for them to create the jobs and the wealth that can come from trade. That is because the Chinese tariffs on New Zealand products cost exporters almost $120 million a year. When it is easier because of this legislation for our Kiwi companies to do business, we will all benefit. Our companies will be able to expand and hire more staff, develop new products, and grow our economy. The Prime Minister, who has also been very instrumental in this deal, which came out of our work with China, said that the agreement sets a high standard and that it is a model for how two trading partners, disparate in size but complementary in the products and services they offer, can take a trading relationship to a new level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESupport for the free-trade agreement has come from many, many different quarters. For example, the agreement is supported by the Council of Trade Unions, the Dairy Companies Association of New Zealand, Federated Farmers, Air New Zealand, Fonterra, the Hospitality Standards Institute, Ng\u0101i Tahu, Meat and Wool New Zealand, the National Distribution Union, Zespri, Business New Zealand, the Seafood Industry Council, the Wellington chamber of commerce, and many others. The agreement is widely supported by many organisations in New Zealand, whether they are businesses, organisations that represent our tourism industry, or part of our union movement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill has two Supplementary Order Papers. One divides the bill into the Tariff Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill, the Radiocommunications Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading Amendment Bill, and the Electricity Amendment Bill, and a second one amends clause 2 to state that Parts 1 and 4 will come into force on 1 October 2008 rather than by Order in Council. The Committee is about to debate the Supplementary Order Papers and the bill itself. I commend this bill to the Committee, and once again I thank members for their very constructive approach across the political divide in supporting this legislation and the advantages that will flow from it for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00221394f2ae8f0149dbac7012a088fbbaee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221394f2ae8f0149dbac7012a088fbbaee\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E First of all I acknowledge amongst the Government\u2019s advisers the presence of my former colleague Dr David Walker. I congratulate him and his team on the assiduous effort they have put in over a number of years to produce this agreement, which I described yesterday\u2014and outside the House\u2014as of potentially historic importance to New Zealand\u2019s long-term trading prospects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EToday as we go through the Committee stage I will start by addressing some of the arguments against the New Zealand - China free-trade agreement, and I will start with the political case against it\u2014the linkage with human rights\u2014which, I think, is very important. Some other arguments of an economic character, which I think are fairly weak arguments, have been used, but obviously in terms of the broader public debate and the media attention it was the linkage with human rights issues that attracted attention. It is important to have some commentary around that to put it into perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn this respect it is important to define what the difference is for the two main parties and, I am sure, for some of the smaller parties. The issue is not about the primacy of human rights. I do not want to get involved in a philosophical discussion about where in the hierarchy of human needs, human rights stand vis-\u00E0-vis things like poverty elimination. The underlying reality is that members of this House are absolutely at one on the absolute importance of proper respect for human rights. I think we would all also have the view that the human rights situation in China is far from perfect. So that is not the issue; the issue is whether we should therefore have turned away at the last minute from this trade agreement because that record is not perfect. On that, we have taken the view on this side of the House, as has the Government, that that would have been a catastrophic strategic misjudgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI want to explain in my own language why I think that is the case. On the first point there is another debate there about New Zealand interests. I cannot recall which great diplomat of the past said this, but it might have been Talleyrand: \u201CIf you don\u2019t look after your country\u2019s interests, no one else will.\u201D But that is not the point we are discussing today. We are discussing whether it is even remotely plausible that not proceeding to trade with a country\u2014and a free-trade agreement is simply a mechanism for accelerating trade between two countries, so it does not differ intrinsically from the concept of trading with a country\u2014would in some sense help the position on human rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWhen we start to drill down into this argument, we come across, I think, a position that is completely implausible. First of all, I doubt that there is a country in the world\u2014no doubt, including our own\u2014that does not have, in some dark corner of the closet, some issue in respect of human rights that we would rather not hear about and that would not stand up to close international scrutiny. Fortunately, we live in a country where such issues would be few and far between but I am sure that they exist, according to the views of many people. So if we were to take the view that we should not form free-trade areas or find other avenues for accelerating trade with countries that have a less than perfect human rights record, what would we really be doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EFor a start, I would argue that we would be excluding trade with all developing countries, because in some generalised sense it is probably fair to say that few developing countries\u2014as much because of the greater problems of poverty and want that face them at this stage in their development\u2014have a larger measure of problems in terms of human rights than others. We would then turn round and say: \u201CWell, what about Australia?\u201D. No doubt there would be people who would stand up and say that they did not think too much of the apology that Prime Minister Kevin Rudd made to the first people of Australia, and that we should therefore pull out of the CER free-trade agreement. We might go systematically through all the countries of the world and find that actually there is nobody who meets our high standards and that we should therefore not trade with them. That is the first issue. When we drill down into it I think we come up with a completely implausible position. It is essentially an argument for economic autarchy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second aspect of this, putting aside New Zealand\u2019s interests, is the question of whether it is even likely that this is the right way to advance human rights. I think, then, that we have to come down to a view that says this: every country that has gone through stages of development has had serious problems in terms of human rights. We can take our children\u2014or in my case, grandchildren\u2014to the Tower of London, we can go to see the torture chamber, and we can find that this of course is now an object of tourist delight. Well, we know that it was not put into the Tower of London as an object of tourist delight, and that inside the political antecedents of our very own country are torture, gross abuse, lack of habeas corpus, and the lack of the fundamental freedoms that underwrite a decent society such as we have in this country. So all countries have had this in their past, or their derived past, if you will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe idea that we can somehow suddenly achieve the standard of excellence that some submitters expect in one hit\u2014and only when that standard has been achieved will they be in a moral position fit for a free-trade agreement with New Zealand\u2014is, frankly, not only ludicrous, when one drills down into the practicalities of it, but also representative of a fundamental misunderstanding about how this all-important issue of human rights is advanced in the real world. Although I would never want to buy into the argument that in some sense human rights are a relative issue and cannot be divorced from the state of economic development, I think it is stretching all the empirical evidence to suggest that there is no linkage between higher levels of economic development and increasing respect for international trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI have never been a believer in trade embargoes, not just because of New Zealand\u2019s interests but because I fundamentally do not believe that they work. I have often used the following example. Nobody could think of a more extreme trade embargo to achieve political objectives than the American trade embargo on Cuba that has been in place since around 1957\u2014for over 50 years. At the time when Castro took over power, American trade was responsible for 90 percent of Cuba\u2019s exports, but there has been a trade embargo ever since. I have always taken the view that if Fidel Castro is a God-fearing man\u2014and he may well be, because my understanding is that he was brought up by Catholics and may now be returning to that stage in life where he starts to be a God-fearing man\u2014I would argue that he should be down on his knees every day of his life to thank God for the American trade embargo. I do not believe for one minute that he would be in power if the Americans had overrun Cuba with McDonald\u2019s franchises, investment, American tourists, and American trade. That is why I am deeply sceptical about trade embargoes for political reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002202a0db311cf44cc9a9050ee55c218aba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202a0db311cf44cc9a9050ee55c218aba\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Acting Minister of Trade):\u003C/span\u003E It appears to me that members would like to roam widely in this debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f42bd28b4b452ba67fa9ae249277f4\u0022\u003ETim Groser\u003C/span\u003E: Initially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333a7dcfcdba46259bceb1705fa4723d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not know, but I suspect that members would like to be able to raise all sorts of things rather than keep the debate very constrained as it is by the part by part consideration. I seek leave for the Committee to take the bill as one question so members can range across the entire debate. [Interruption] It can be as long as members want, but it means that members can talk about everything. If the Committee does not want to do that, that is fine. I noticed from Mr Groser\u2019s very good speech that he wished to roam widely, and I suspect that Mr Hayes would also like to, as well as my colleague Keith Locke. I seek leave for this bill to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e475b4ce7ba4be9bbf91271e7ebbbca\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to address the bill\u2019s five parts as one question. Is there any objection? There is objection. Before I call the next speaker, I say that since leave has been declined that means that the Committee will stick very closely to each part for the rest of the debate. I want members to talk about amendments to the Tariff Act in this part, followed by amendments to the Customs and Excise Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00229cf5be200cc5494bb9363e22842bb7c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cf5be200cc5494bb9363e22842bb7c3\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Mr Groser gave quite a talk on human rights. Given that he was not stopped and that many of his comments were directed, partly, at the views that the Green Party holds, in fairness I think it would be in order for some response to be able to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00224dc7a9a8c0fc4c66afdb822499803982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dc7a9a8c0fc4c66afdb822499803982\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I support my colleague Mr Locke on this matter. I think it is entirely appropriate, given the importance of this matter, for us to start with some general comments. I am well aware of Mr Locke\u2019s views. I have put forward my contrary view, I would like to hear his response, and then I think we can proceed with a more technical and detailed examination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220024be03793a401799cf99361cbe2c23\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to give some considered thought to this matter. It is a problem because of the way that the member actually introduced the matter into the debate. I would really like to confine the debate to Part 1, and members may go to general debate when they come to clauses 1 and 2 at the end. I am sorry, but I am now ruling that the Committee sticks, as was voted on by members of the Opposition party, to amendments to the Tariff Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a35e9f379fc44cd2881fcb8d527aa146\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a35e9f379fc44cd2881fcb8d527aa146\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225981096586744d62bd91b1cdfa81930b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I have given a ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c16cf1b3684963830bf4fe06e548d6\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: May I draw to your attention, Madam Chairperson, that we have had a general contribution that was intended to presage more detailed comments and subsequent contributions. That was not objected to by the Government, and it seems only appropriate that the Green Party member is also able to address this. I certainly understand the need to stick to the individual parts, as you quite rightly say, but our denying leave to the Minister\u2019s request was not to suggest that we therefore discuss only individual clauses. This is very important legislation, and it is appropriate that we deal with the detail. But before we get to the detail, I think that members want to be able to have a general discussion, and in particular the Green Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210da98745f384448bbe3ec641d7740be\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated, please. You are challenging my ruling. I will say it very clearly again: the Committee voted to consider the bill part by part. Members know, as experienced members of the House, that this is not a general debate. The general debate occurs either in the second reading, the third reading, or in the debate on clauses 1 and 2. Members chose to do this by voting against considering the bill as one question. I was lenient when I listened to the first speaker. I gave the Committee the choice, and the Committee made its choice. We will now go ahead, sticking to a part by part consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e59cc81e41ff483bb515fe2ef4723fe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e59cc81e41ff483bb515fe2ef4723fe6\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chairperson, you have directed us to concentrate strictly on Part 1, and indeed on all the subsequent parts. There was no issue of a vote. Leave was sought and denied, and we simply said we would follow the rules. No vote was taken on the issue, at all. There was never a question of a vote, and I remind you, Madam Chairperson, that it is not an issue of taking a vote; simply, any one member can seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EPart 1 deals directly with the reduction in tariffs. That is how the free-trade agreement works. What is the purpose of a free-trade agreement? It is to introduce free trade. What stops free trade? Tariffs stop free trade. In the trade between New Zealand and China, many goods\u2014in particular, goods in the agricultural sector\u2014suffer high tariffs. In addition to that, there are typically quotas, as well. A free-trade agreement by definition\u2014and under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules\u2014is designed to eliminate tariffs between the parties to that free-trade agreement at a faster rate than would otherwise be the case. Otherwise, the parties would be going just by their bound commitments under the World Trade Organization, and that would not be dealt with until the Doha round itself was dealt with. In this instance China and New Zealand, for strategic reasons as much as trade reasons, have decided to go for no tariffs and no tariff quotas on all trade between our nations. That will be achieved by 2019. That is the point of Part 1. That is the very particular legislation being introduced by Part 1\u2014an amendment to the Tariff Act and the tariff codes thereof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe remarkable thing about this is that New Zealand First is going to vote against Part 1 because it is not fast enough. One of the things I would like to know from the speakers of New Zealand First is how fast they think it should have been. Do they think there should have been full free trade between our two countries by, let us say, 2010 or 2012? I guess most New Zealand businesses would say that that would be a jolly good thing. But was it actually achievable? Was it ever likely that China would agree to eliminate all tariffs in 2 or 3 years? No, that would be an idle pretence. More particularly, New Zealand First knows the truth of that. Those members know that this is actually an excellent free-trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIf we look at the history of free-trade agreements, we will see that seldom, if ever\u2014particularly where agricultural products are involved\u2014are tariffs and tariff quotas eliminated completely within a 10-year period. That is an extraordinary precedent, and I congratulate the officials, led by Dr David Walker, on the extraordinary achievement they made on that. A major country like China, with major agricultural potential but vulnerable, with its small farmers, to trade from New Zealand, has nevertheless decided to allow full free trade in all temperate agricultural products, or in any agricultural products that New Zealand happens to produce\u2014and we are an efficient producer of agricultural products. That is unlike other Asian nations that are always concerned to protect their small farmers. So China, a major agricultural producer, is willing to accept full free trade of our agricultural products, which will be started from 1 October this year. So the first changes will occur very quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe committee heard from Fonterra, New Zealand\u2019s single largest exporter, that it has already concluded arrangements worth $300 million. I also say that one of the things I have always found extraordinary in respect of ministry officials and official ministry documents is that they say there might be an increase, as a result of this agreement over the 10-year period, of maybe $300 million in trade. I have always wondered how that sum could possibly be so small.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022725932182c3b4ea98a51200d6f136067\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022725932182c3b4ea98a51200d6f136067\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very brief call, because I know that Dr Mapp, notwithstanding his very comprehensive delivery to the Committee, really wants to get this bill through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216542490302e456ca4105a58123a5859\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish! It wasn\u2019t comprehensive at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291db96b9386d4d4e9489d5c73571470a\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s because I only had 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395cb2ca24eb4d1abfa7b074c969db1b\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sure that Dr Mapp does not need much longer than 5 minutes, but that is another issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to state the obvious in terms of the fact that we are now confined by your ruling, Madam Chairperson, to being very focused on each part, part by part; that is certainly respected. I join other members in acknowledging the excellent help of the officials, and certainly the help they gave to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. I note particularly, with regard to clause 10, in which new section 15G is substituted, that \u201CThe Minister may extend a transitional safeguard measure \u2026 if the extension is\u2014(a) consistent with the provisions of the relevant free trade agreement;\u201D\u2014either the China free-trade agreement or the Thai free-trade agreement\u2014\u201Cand (b) not inconsistent with New Zealand\u2019s other international obligations.\u201D This seems to me to be crossing the t\u2019s and dotting the i\u2019s, and I look forward, in view of your ruling, Madam Chairperson, to our now having a very narrowly focused, finite debate. That is the point of the Committee of the whole House, and I always adhere to it. The broader, sweeping debate will now obviously be confined to the third reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e719772e68e34057bd0a842489cd9c8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e719772e68e34057bd0a842489cd9c8c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I will continue to elaborate on the points I was making about the way Part 1 initiates the free-trade agreement by reducing the tariff schedules down to zero by 2019. It is a remarkable achievement by the officials to get that outcome in the negotiations. I note that the Government must take some credit for driving the negotiations in that way. Clearly, it takes a high-level push from the Government to be able to drive forward that level of success. I know that the Minister of Trade, and indeed the Prime Minister, were actively engaged with the Chinese Government to that effect. I think we have to consider just what a tremendous achievement that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI was saying, when I was closed off\u2014if you will\u2014that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade said there would be only a $300 million gain per year in a 10-year period\u2014at least, by 2019. I have always thought that that is an absurd proposition. I choose those words carefully. Trade is already worth $2 billion. Is the ministry seriously suggesting that the effect of a free-trade agreement a decade from now will be only 10 percent of the current levels of trade? That does not seem credible, because it ignores the fact that it is not just about the potential gains we will get by the tariff reduction of 20 percent; it is actually about the relative advantage we will have over all other nations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is a well-known theory of free-trade agreements that one of the advantages countries seek is not just the growth in trade between countries but also trade diversionary effects from other countries. Although China might currently buy meat, grain, and dairy products from a range of countries, it will now divert that trade to New Zealand because we will have a 20 percent price-competitive advantage over all other nations once the agreement comes into full effect. People act before the reality of that full effect, which is why Fonterra was able to get the $300 million deal now, in anticipation, because the trend is already established. People act on the basis of the final effects, not just on the initial effects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second point I make as to why that $300 million gain has to be an underestimate is that once trade is boosted, total demand goes up. China is growing extraordinarily rapidly\u2014even now, at a rate of 10 percent per annum. Even now, several hundred million people are able to spend $10 a day, or more, on advanced products in China. At 10 percent growth per annum, that will increase rapidly, and the demand that this agreement will generate in China will be far greater than a simple 10 percent increase in trade over the course of a decade. I predict that within 5 years China will be New Zealand\u2019s single largest market. Trade will be largely in agricultural products, but it will also be in services, tourism, and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI say to the M\u0101ori Party that M\u0101ori organisations understand that advantage. That is why they came to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and were so enthusiastic about the agreement. They saw the potential to grow a market, and that is what the reduction of tariff barriers does. It does not just divert trade; it leads to total growth in international trade. If we want a comprehensive demonstration of that, we have only to look at the European Union. The establishment of no tariffs right across the European community did not just divert trade from, say, New Zealand to Britain; it hugely increased the economic potential of Europe, and Europe has gained immensely over the 50-odd years since the establishment of that free-trade agreement. This agreement will do the same for New Zealand and China, and for other countries that join in, as well. It will not just lead to trade diversion; it will lead to a massive and total increase in trade and prosperity. That is the gain of Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf10a298d281410bb4f53f8dc6d11f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf10a298d281410bb4f53f8dc6d11f51\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think Wayne Mapp is using parallels that are not particularly appropriate here when he talks about the European Union, because the example of the European Union is of economies that are at a relatively similar stage of development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca9dbd18b964ad2af7caa6f42c2db42\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What about Poland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5071d2d768d4b7e83e3b63745bff327\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, the other principle of the European Union\u2014and there is a call about Poland\u2014is that countries that were seen to be lagging behind a bit at its foundation, such as southern European countries, or Ireland in some respects, were given great assistance by the European Union to level up the whole situation. In that sense, whether we are talking about the European Union or about CER, where we have two comparable economies, the opening of trade and the removal of restrictions\u2014and I am not saying each is perfect\u2014we have a much more positive argument when we are talking about comparable economies. That is so particularly when they are neighbouring economies\u2014in our case separated from Australia just by the Tasman Sea, and in the case of the European Union, adjacent geographically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut it is quite different in the case of New Zealand and China, because the wages in China are hugely lower than the wages in New Zealand. Wayne Mapp mentioned business organisations here. I can mention one that submitted to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2014namely, Earth Sea Sky, a clothing manufacturer\u2014which was very strongly against the free-trade agreement for that very reason. It is being driven out of business by the low wages in China, and it specifically talked about losing its skills base. The skills base is important for a country like New Zealand. The company said that things like the existing accumulated experience in cutting patterns, which is a very skilled trade, could disappear. The woman in Earth Sea Sky had her own experience of that. Her group is continuing more or less on the basis of her own experience, but with related experience as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat sort of hollowing out of New Zealand manufacturing is not in the long-term interests of the New Zealand economy. We want to have a more rounded economy. Wayne Mapp talked about agricultural exports. It may be that we will get some increase in agricultural exports as a result of this agreement, but at what cost to the rest of the economy? I think that is the point. It is just wrong to have this ideology of free trade where somehow everyone benefits, regardless of the state of each economy, the relative wage structures, the specialisations, etc. This is particularly the case with an economy as dominant as China\u2019s. China not only has low wages but has heavy Government involvement to make sure it can smash any competition, including competition from New Zealand manufacturers, and force them either to go out of business or to move their manufacturing offshore. So the comparison Wayne Mapp has made is, I think, completely inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00221933d05100f24113a7e0f5567ec1da50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221933d05100f24113a7e0f5567ec1da50\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I have heard some nonsense talked in this Chamber, and that speech was a significant contribution in that sense. My colleague from the Green Party, Keith Locke, talked a load of nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBut before I climb into that I would like to acknowledge the officials who are here today, particularly my ex-colleagues from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, who are led by David Walker. I would also like to publicly thank Simon Murdoch for his leadership in this process. What has been really good about the process is that it has involved officials from across a whole range of Government departments. It is good to see our departments working together in the same way that we in this Chamber are working across political divides this afternoon. So I extend my congratulations there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI was particularly interested in the freedom and latitude you gave the previous speaker, Madam Chairperson, because clearly he was not in any sense talking about Part 1. Part 1 talks about removing tariffs and amends the Tariff Act 1988. As I said in the House last night\u2014obviously, our Green colleague did not hear me\u2014there is no fairer trade than free trade. Mr Locke talked about one of the arguments brought to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and I can talk about a group called New Zealanders with a Conscience that gave us a four-page submission outlining their concerns that the Government would get less income because it was going to drop tariffs, and that the Inland Revenue Department would fall into deficit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThat is a particularly serious problem that our committee addressed, and the submitter argued that small businesses would close down as a result of these tariffs being reduced. On page 2 of its submission the group says that the agreement \u201Cwould cause a great drain on the Government purse\u201D. I really have to say that the select committee members, across all parties, disagreed that that would be the outcome. The point is that as a select committee we decided that this bill\u2014which I think is the most significant piece of legislation to pass through this Parliament in the last 3 years\u2014will contribute to making New Zealand an open and competitive economy, and will give us strong links to the rest of the world. China is showing other countries that it too is prepared to engage more strongly internationally by dropping its trade barriers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ETrade liberalisation policies go back at least 25 years in this country, and the moves that we made with the CER agreement 25 years ago have enabled our economy to be in the strong position it is in today to make these tariff adjustments without having a significant impact on companies that operate in our community. I think that the removal of most tariff and other trade barriers with China, as foreshadowed in Part 1, will improve resource allocation in New Zealand, contribute to economic growth, and also lower prices for consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EMy Green colleague has gone, but the point about free trade is that no buyers pay more for a product than they want to, because if they are asked to pay more and they do not want to pay, then there is no transaction. That is a fundamental point not understood by New Zealand First, not understood by the Green Party, and not understood by the M\u0101ori Party, and it is really important that the community understands that point. For the same reason, the economic adjustment faced by industries will be small compared with those adjustments that would have been required when import licensing existed 30 or 40 years ago\u2014when our economy was protected by high tariffs. I have been around many businesses in my community, and of the 20 or 30 people I have talked to only one person has said that bringing tariffs down and allowing cheap Chinese machinery imports is going to be a bit of a problem and have an impact on his business. I am thinking now of Rob Saxton in Greytown, the town where I live. He is the Stihl agent, and his products are quite highly priced, but they are of high quality. Consumers choose whether they go that way or go to Bunnings warehouse and spend $10 or $15 on an instrument that is perhaps less robust. This is what free trade is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9a322b800cb40f7ae7856bad6277115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9a322b800cb40f7ae7856bad6277115\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague Wayne Mapp said yesterday: \u201CTraders are waiting for us to do our legislative work so they can get ahead and reap the gains of the agreement.\u201D That is very, very true, and it is with pleasure that I rise to speak on Part 1 of the New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill. Part 1 is the mechanism that reduces the barriers while at the same time providing safeguards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe barriers to trade are very, very real when one does not have free trade. I reflect on what the previous speaker said: free trade is fair trade. Exporters do not have an easy task, but it is an honourable one and it is one that, like it or not, the rest of us live by. So what will be the effect of this free-trade agreement? The tariffs on 96 percent of New Zealand\u2019s current exports to China will be eliminated by 2019. Two-thirds of all of New Zealand\u2019s goods will be tariff free within 5 years. What a wonderful opportunity has been created, and I would like to add my compliments to the officials, to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and to everybody who has been working tremendously hard to achieve it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThere are many ways of penetrating a market. There are probably as many ways of penetrating a market as there are exporters involved in the trade. I reflect back on a career in the Dairy Board. With the difficulties associated with quotas, with the endless conflict, and with the challenges for access, it was amazing that we had the trade we did have\u2014and what an effort it took! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe task of the free-trade agreement is to reduce and eradicate the unnecessary blockages. So how do those blockages occur, and why do we have to have the transitional aspects that occur in Part 1? The blockages generally occur through apprehension on the part of manufacturers and local producers. If we look at the Common Agricultural Policy\u2014which was a huge blockage to progress, and everybody acknowledged it was not sensible\u2014we see they occur from fears of privation, from fears of starvation, from the experience of war, and from the experience of countries being unable to feed their people. We go right back to the basic law of the provision of food, shelter, and clothing being a Government\u2019s first responsibility to its people. So food has always been an incredibly sensitive, delicate issue, and tariffs were a way of giving protection. They have been used clumsily, though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWhen I think back to trading in the Pacific, I know that the Pacific offers New Zealand exporters tremendous trading opportunity. We have markets that are operated under French\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022549e77de43f646c49e802bd9d89145d4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: China?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220395d7df3700444ba921849ff47a0a72\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, indeed. But as a precursor to dealing with China, if one looks to see how trade is conducted within one\u2019s own local theatre, one sees that there are many different ways. I can remember doing a chart of tariffs against particular dairy products\u2014this, I am sure, will interest my colleague Doug Woolerton. The dairy product tariffs in, say, Tahiti used to run for line after line after line. They had been built up over an awfully long time, which meant that they were hard to reduce and hard to remove. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ESo we get to China\u2014was it Napoleon who called it the sleeping dragon\u2014and we look at its tariffs. We see China built a wall around itself\u2014not just a wall of stone, but a wall of tariffs. Then New Zealand, through its negotiation and its approaches, started to penetrate that tariff wall, which is where we have come to today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has enjoyed free trade for a very long time. Having the benefit of grey hair and a bit of experience in life, I can go back\u2014and I am sure Madam Chair will remember this\u2014to the pre - free-trade times. The domestic life of New Zealand in the 1960s, when we were afflicted with tariffs, was one where we had very little choice of goods\u2014very little choice of goods at all. In the 1970s people had plenty of money but there was a shortage of goods. There were import restrictions, tariffs, export restrictions, and all sorts of problems. Nowadays the logistics of exporting and importing are able to concentrate on the real elements of trading rather than the artificial ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd365d0e747f47fab3d4f4a793c75754\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd365d0e747f47fab3d4f4a793c75754\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on the Committee stage of the New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill. I have heard the snipes coming across the floor from New Zealand First\u2014my colleague Wayne Mapp referred to them earlier\u2014and from Winston Peters who, when this deal was originally signed, said that it is not good enough and we need more, and I am absolutely waiting for New Zealand First members to take a call and to hear what their objections are all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis free-trade agreement has been negotiated with the overriding objective of opening up economic opportunities for New Zealand business in China. A growing part of New Zealand business is M\u0101ori business. As my colleague Dr Mapp also mentioned, representatives from M\u0101ori business came to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and went through what they saw as the huge advantages for M\u0101ori business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to paint just a little bit of the context. This agreement is historic. It represents a challenge and a huge opportunity for M\u0101ori. In the current environment, where over the last 10 or 15 years we have seen the quite substantial return of significant fish, forestry, land, and other assets to M\u0101ori tribes\u2014and that will continue over the next 10 years\u2014this agreement is a major marker for what will happen going forward. Part 1 of the bill deals with the removal of tariffs. That could not be timelier for M\u0101ori business potential as we go forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI think we are all, particularly in this House and in the private sector, pretty much aware now of the growing asset base of M\u0101ori. It is estimated to be anywhere between $9 billion and $15 billion and it is growing\u2014it is huge. We also know that its future is dependent on export\u2014exporting goods to China and to the world. We all talk globally now, and free trade is what goes with a global economy. Free trade is absolutely critical, and the removal of tariffs and other trade barriers is the core of the free-trade initiative that has started with this and will no doubt grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAccording to Hui Taumata 2005, M\u0101ori enterprises are concentrated in export-oriented areas, primary production, and processing, and about 60 percent of M\u0101ori commercial assets are reliant on international trade. This is significant. It is significant because 96 percent of Chinese tariffs and trade barriers will be removed by 2019. That is a huge achievement. That is not far away; it is just around the corner. An example of where M\u0101ori interests will benefit is in the fisheries industry, with the removal of tariffs imposed by China on products such as live lobster and p\u0101ua, which are currently around 25 to 35 percent. We do not really have to think very far forward to see the immediate impact that this removal will have on M\u0101ori business and M\u0101ori exporters, and certainly for the long term as tribes get their assets and organise their governance arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThere is a big challenge, of course. Treaty settlements were one part of this equation and we all thought that was hard; actually the harder part is coming now. We are on to the harder part now: nurturing those assets, growing them, creating wealth, and making sure we have access to world markets. The market in China is the biggest one could want to be in\u2014the absolute biggest. M\u0101ori exporters are already going up into China; they have been for at least the last 5 years in a small way, but that is growing. As I say, there is no doubt whatsoever that free trade is the hallmark for growing M\u0101ori potential in the business and export sector going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00221518b2a9dd6b424fbf1f60310fb65317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221518b2a9dd6b424fbf1f60310fb65317\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd18e968a47e49e6a349ce8c79bb5e93\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I think I will grant one more call, and that is to Tim Groser. I take notes as we go through. I have listened to the arguments, and they have become fairly repetitive and rather wide on the question of tariffs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1cab1e2518c432d825eaeaa0f8b80d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1cab1e2518c432d825eaeaa0f8b80d0\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, first of all, let me give you my personal assurance that I have taken note of your harsh, but possibly just, ruling. I shall make carefully targeted points about Part 1, which after all is\u2014to use plain language\u2014the meat and potatoes of the agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe preferential rates are very important, and I will illustrate the underlying point about this in a couple of different ways. First of all, we take Dr Mapp\u2019s earlier point about the competitive edge and we look at it in terms of one example that comes to mind, which is wine. I stand to be corrected, but from memory the most favoured nation rate on wine imported in bottles into China is 14 percent. For a country that enjoys, as we do, the privilege of having the highest per-bottle price in the world\u2014believe it or not\u2014on the largest wine market, which is the London market, having this competitive edge will be of considerable benefit. There is absolutely no truth in the belief that the countries in Asia that are seeing the emergence of the middle class will not move into consumption of these products, and I think New Zealand wine exporters will benefit enormously from this competitive advantage. That is the first basic point that I make about the tariff reductions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second point is that I want to address some criticisms about the allegedly slow pace. First of all, I do not consider it slow at all by the standards of most trade agreements, particularly coming on top of the major liberalisation that China itself has undertaken in the context of its accession\u2014or readmission, according to the official script\u2014to the international trading system. I use the term \u201Croughly a decade\u201D to describe the overall totality of a complex tiered formula that has been negotiated on tariffs. I do not consider it a long period of time at all, particularly when we look at the profiling of our major exports in relationship to that timetable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe other point I would make is about the automaticity of this process. In Part 2 we will come to the question of safeguard measures and contingency protection devices, which qualifies us a little bit, but I do not believe in any important way. When we come to look at the automaticity of this process, this is a very, very important qualifier to any criticisms about the slow pace. What is quite clear\u2014and we have seen this in a variety of different trade agreements; I saw it 20 years earlier in respect of the Australia and New Zealand Closer Economic Relations Trade Agreement\u2014is that when businesses know what the end point is, they can get ahead of that end point and accelerate the process. We had literally within weeks a spectacular example of that in the signing of the deal by Fonterra, our largest goods exporter, worth some $300 million over a period of time. Fonterra took advantage of tariff reductions that literally had not even come into legal effect, for the very simple reason that we are here today in this Committee enabling the legislation to go through to have that effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo already we have seen that this is not theory; this is how the market works. If we put in place what looks to some a modest pace, finally\u2014within reason\u2014it does not matter. The automaticity of the process is what matters. Then people can get ahead of the programme, as we have already seen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second point is in relation to tariff reductions, when we measure them with these econometric exercises. I have been involved in many of these exercises. Although they are highly sophisticated in terms of their methodology, personally I do not think they are particularly useful. They omit what in earlier times were called x-efficiency gains by economists\u2014or the dynamic effects, in more plain language\u2014and almost always seem to me to understate the importance of the tariff liberalisation process. The mere reduction of tariffs is one part of it, but the stimulatory effect in terms of actual company business also matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EMy own view is that this will have what is called demonstration effects, which has been much commented on internationally in the literature around trade agreements, and which will be particularly strong in this agreement. The reason I believe this is to do with the Confucian nature of the society we have negotiated this agreement with. When China designates New Zealand as a preferred tourist destination\u2014I imagine that if the Australian Government did that, we would all fall around the floor laughing, along with our Australian cousins\u2014I believe the signal to Chinese businesses will be considerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00229d1a5649afe54b3293fe27c9c600a507\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d1a5649afe54b3293fe27c9c600a507\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I have sought this point of order because you indicated earlier that there would be only one more substantive call. I am aware of the rule that states that once you accept a closure motion, that is it and it cannot be contested, so it is important that I raise the point of order now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI raise it in two parts. The first part relates to the general significance of this legislation. It is widely acknowledged and recognised, including by the Government, that this is the most significant economic legislation to be passed, certainly this year and realistically in this term, by this Government. I believe therefore that a proper level of debate is required. Part 1, as we all concede, is the core of this agreement. To have a debate that is not even an hour long is, frankly, not appropriate. The second point is that all of the discussions so far, by all of the speakers, have actually been on Subpart 1, \u201CImplementation of preferential tariffs under New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement\u201D. There has been no discussion as yet on Subpart 2, which actually covers six clauses in relation to safeguard measures\u2014virtually no discussion on it whatsoever. The reason for that, of course, is your strict ruling earlier, and we understand why you made that ruling in terms of the Standing Orders. We felt that we should therefore deal explicitly with tariffs in Subpart 1, and then we would move on to deal explicitly with the issues addressed in Subpart 2. To accept a closure motion now would effectively deny members the ability to have any debate whatsoever on Subpart 2 of this very, very important legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022db8b9e47c6c646da9e3c4590147897d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db8b9e47c6c646da9e3c4590147897d8\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E It seems to me, with due respect, that the Committee did have the choice of having a very wide-ranging, comprehensive debate in which multiple calls could have been taken. Leave was sought for that and leave was denied. Consequently, I understand you then had to go back to the Standing Orders and that you were bound by the Standing Orders, leave having been denied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00e8a8549fb41388696bd3fc499714d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a question of debate. At the moment we have had, with all due respect, a series of very good lectures, but it has not been a debate. The debate has not been joined in the Committee. There was time to go on to Subpart 2, but speakers chose to stay on Subpart 1 and to mention only casually Subpart 2. Very many important laws have gone through this Parliament almost without there having been a Committee stage on them. I therefore will not give members further calls on this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022e996cf41082a428b969ff93c2bb7e714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e996cf41082a428b969ff93c2bb7e714\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fad1eecbc6d94696ba9cebc7d6cb3f1d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I hope the member is not going to challenge the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a362dd09bafb41138ad016fe4afc5f98\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: I draw your attention to Standing Order 109, the gist of which is that the House is not to anticipate discussion. With the greatest of respect, Madam Chairperson, I point out that you were not at the select committee and a party to the debates, and neither was the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta. There is quite a number of elements to the Tariff Act that are yet to be discussed. I am ready to discuss them, and I wish to have the opportunity to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022127586d504df48d29f10c3069bfabc76\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry but the member had the opportunity to discuss both Subpart 1 and Subpart 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u002286237c2496964bc580ba981508e07ad8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286237c2496964bc580ba981508e07ad8\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b56bd5e3d2cc4046b20ab6201edc883a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000439\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000440\u0022\u003Eto omit subpart 1 heading and substitute the following heading: \u201CImplementation of preferential tariffs under New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000441\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 4 the words \u201CThis subpart\u201D and substitute the words \u201CSection 5\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000442\u0022\u003Eto omit subpart 2 heading and substitute the following heading: \u201CApplication of transitional safeguard measures and provisional transitional safeguard measures\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000443\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 6 the words \u201Cthis subpart amends\u201D and substitute the words \u201CSections 7 to 11 amend\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000444\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c117666eca2c42f69cd716397f30bdb4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d739240de8534b1483794bace71fcfd0\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Customs and Excise Act 1996\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00221d92ed0b58174747b88d230aaeafeb30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d92ed0b58174747b88d230aaeafeb30\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address the issue in Part 2 of import certificates of origin, and to give a view about the ultimate purpose of this issue. In doing so, I might say I apologise to you, Madam Chair, if this appears to be another lecture, but when one has a situation where the Opposition is actually supporting the Government, it is very difficult. One might want a vicious disputation, but that is not going to happen in the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EA couple of points are very important to the question of certification. The first relates to the rules of origin and the other relates to the use of the devices of contingency protection\u2014in particular, anti-dumping and safeguard actions. Without certificates of origin these mechanisms simply cannot operate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn respect of rules of origin there has been a lot of criticism of the free-trade agreement strategy centred on the metaphor of the spaghetti bowl. This criticism essentially says that the proliferation of free-trade agreements is creating impossible administrative obstacles for traders. It is an argument made against free-trade agreements of this type. Personally, I have for years believed this to be grossly overstated. I do not think that New Zealand exporters will now be confused in their trading relationships with China, as a consequence of the rules of origin that will prevail. In many cases this illustrates a lack of understanding about how administratively, in practice, rules of origin are actually handled. I do not think this is as fundamental a problem as the critics would have it. We can establish ex post facto, through certificates of origin that are provided for in Part 2, what are truly Chinese goods in the case of imports into our customs territory or truly New Zealand goods in terms of the substantive provisions relating to rules of origin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second point, which I think is probably more real from the point of view of domestic concerns about this trade agreement, relates to anti-dumping measures. Certificates of origin are crucial to safeguard all devices of contingency protection. If there is agreement to apply measures, or in some cases not to apply measures, to goods of one\u2019s free-trade partner, then one needs certificates of origin to establish what the goods are. In the course of the submissions we were told\u2014and it was an echo of the debate one hears internationally\u2014that this agreement will not work because of the provisions relating to unfair trade. It is very important, I think, to define the concept of fair and unfair trade in traditional terms. In this 5-minute call on Part 2, I will not get involved in a broader discussion of the swampland territory we would get into if we expanded beyond the traditional definitions, but I will focus on anti-dumping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ECertainly, it is fair that our companies need protection from dumped imports. We have a longstanding procedure in this country to deal with this, and I just want to address the criticism that the free-trade agreement will not work. That criticism is entirely misplaced, and in the course of this inquiry we asked for some very simple, but very powerful, analysis to be produced on the application of anti-dumping orders to goods of Chinese origin, not just in our customs territory but around the world, since China joined the World Trade Organization in 1995. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EFar from substantiating the critique: \u201CNobody can apply anti-dumping orders to China.\u201D, we found that 27 countries\u2014a mix of developed and developing countries, including our own\u2014have applied anti-dumping orders, or anti-dumping measures, to goods of Chinese origin, and in each case they would have been required to apply certificates of origin of the type provided for in Part 2 of this bill. Even more important, in only one case did the Chinese authorities choose to contest this, and, as at the time of drafting the select committee report back, that was still in the process of going through the World Trade Organization dispute settlement procedures, which, as members would be aware, are highly complex. In other words, all but one of these 327 measures have been applied successfully. I think we should have every confidence in the provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9c2580a33954e80a7f59014bdfbc6eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9c2580a33954e80a7f59014bdfbc6eb\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The legislation that kicks open the door to the future does not, in itself, furnish the room beyond. When I looked at Part 2, I thought that this is a very good safeguard measure that has been introduced. Certificates of origin, perhaps seen just as a bureaucratic part of an export job, are far more than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI remember having a discussion on certificates of origin and the need for them, particularly on generic products like consumable butter and that sort of thing. We were designing a new wrap for New Zealand butter and it had to comply with certificates of origin; the French customer in this particular case required the word \u201Cbeurre\u201D on it. The question from the product division was why butter is butter, and we responded: \u201CWhen did you last buy a wrapped product without English on it?\u201D. We like to see, we like to know, what we are purchasing and, increasingly, we like to know where it is from. That is very, very important from a consumer\u2019s point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237879cff3f844079969d4c1e34640550\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d98aa2e91b84133a13674585d5a3da0\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I know that parliamentary colleagues in the Green Party are making a particular thing of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EMy colleague Wayne Mapp mentioned stickers. Well, there are stickers on apples. I do not know how one shows a certificate of origin on an egg, although I have seen stamps on eggs; it can be done. But a certificate of origin is far more than just a stamp of origin. It carries the essence of the country of production with it. In the case of New Zealand, it is a brand in itself, if one has a certificate of origin. It is a protection for the producer, it is a protection for the consumer of the goods, and it is a protection for the carriers who transact the export of those goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIn reading Part 2, which amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996, and having been involved in export for a while, I wondered why we had to have a particular certificate of origin. The answer, I guess, is in new section 64A(3), to be inserted by clause 14. It specifies: \u201CGoods originate in New Zealand if, for the purposes of the China FTA, the goods satisfy the requirements of the rules of origin prescribed for the China FTA.\u201D If I have it wrong, I would be grateful if the Minister would take a call, and explain. I gather there are particular requirements that the certificate of origin meets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EMy colleague Tim Groser, who has phenomenal experience of this issue, talked about anti-dumping protection. I would agree with him that rather than go into the swampland of discussing that in detail, I think there is a case for accepting that there is a measure of protection through the certificate of origin purpose. I think what we are seeing here is a further example of free trade being free but also being protected in the best sense, because exporting and importing is not just a matter of transacting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI used to explain to the troops, as we called them as we went about our work, that what the customer wants is not really lots of advertising and negotiation on price. What the customer\u2014the end distributor\u2014wants is the goods he ordered on the vessel he nominated at the agreed price, but overall, more than anything else, he wants the correct certification, because it is, in fact, the documents that are being exchanged. The goods follow along in good faith, as does the money, but the documents form the crucial part of any transaction of an export nature. We are blessed in this country with a Customs Service that has obligations to the country and to the international linkage with other customs services\u2014which, of course, sometimes comes as a surprise to exporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022725a0fcabd394aacab60d8b9efc04e99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022725a0fcabd394aacab60d8b9efc04e99\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad that Chris Auchinvole has talked about the importance of knowing the origin of products and that we have had all this talk about certificates of origin. That is very good, but it seems to me that certificates of origin are only the first step. Sure, it enables the country of China to find out that the goods are coming from New Zealand and to get that legitimation and vice versa\u2014and hopefully we will get certificates that these goods are genuinely coming from China\u2014but that is for the bureaucrats. The bureaucrats will know that, but what about the people? This Government, supported by the National Party, has refused to adopt the Australian procedure of having compulsory labelling of the country of origin on food products. It absolutely refuses to go along with that and, surely, that is in contradiction to everything that the National Party speaker has just said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley had a member\u2019s bill, which was supported by the M\u0101ori Party and New Zealand First, to enable us to be in tandem with Australia. It would have offered consumers\u2014in this case, Australian and New Zealand consumers\u2014the choice between particular products based on their country of origin and also the choice to have the right to do so. When we raised those issues in Parliament we got lectures from Annette King and Phil Goff, who said that it was only a question of food safety. They said that the Government guarantees food safety, that anything coming from China or anywhere else is guaranteed to be safe, and that that was all we needed to know. We said that consumers have a right to know and to make a choice on whatever basis they liked. Consumers might not like the human rights situation in the Sudan or Zimbabwe, and they might make a choice on that basis if they wanted to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo even though the National Party talks about freedom and all the rest of it, it will not allow the citizens of New Zealand the freedom to choose on any basis they want whether they accept the product in terms of its country of origin. It is a basic democratic right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EChinese garlic is already coming in and selling at a few cents a bunch, and it is completely undermining the New Zealand domestic product. Most consumers, when buying that garlic, do not know it comes from China and they do not know about the conditions it is produced in. They do not know which toxic materials may be associated with it. They know nothing about that because it is not labelled, and they should have the right to have it labelled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhy should we be against the Australian position\u2014the democratic position in Australia\u2014on this question? It just shows that this free-trade agreement is not about helping the New Zealand people to make proper choices or anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bf1ccc73d8b4c6089b5449d398d3a24\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The debate we are hearing at the moment has nothing to do with Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2dec34acca49cf9959cf1a59303177\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Chairperson, this part is all about this issue. Chris Auchinvole went on in his speech about certificates from the country of origin. My debate is that this should be extended and complemented by having consumers know that fact as well as the bureaucrats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4bcdfc84100442d9333d923ef9b8ed7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I actually heard, and said to the Clerk beside me, that the member was taking the debate wider than the certificate of origin as it applies to this free-trade agreement, but he had begun with Part 2. I now ask the member to come back more closely to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d237354ad336416487ea494f50d19cc2\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: I will accept your judgment, Madam Chairperson. But members should recognise that in the Green Party\u2019s view, one cannot separate the question of certificates of origin that are provided to the State machinery in another country from that of the certificates of origin\u2014that is, stickers on the food or on the basket of food\u2014that are available to the New Zealand people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe could, if we wished, move an amendment to the effect that these certificates of origin be complemented with a requirement for them to be made available to the people of China perhaps, or be made available on Chinese goods being bought by the people of New Zealand, through having just that additional bit. I am sure the amendment would be supported by the M\u0101ori Party and New Zealand First. It does not need to be the whole certificate, but just a little label, stating perhaps the abbreviation COI\u2014that is, certificate of origin\u2014and the word \u201CChina\u201D. It is not a very long word to put on a label: C-h-i-n-a. That could be done so that the procedure does not stop at the level of the State bureaucracy. I think that possibly over the dinner break we might be able to work out a little amendment to that effect, although it may be too difficult in that short time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002240b9fbf139ef460297fabfefd3409aa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240b9fbf139ef460297fabfefd3409aa1\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I was going to talk specifically about Part 2 and about the purpose of Part 2, which, I might add, is an imposition on the New Zealand manufacturer. This is a change to New Zealand law, actually, not to Chinese law, and it is worth remembering that point. It is worth thinking about the origin of certificates of origin. That point has been addressed significantly by Tim Groser and Mr Chris Auchinvole, and addressed tangentially, I guess, by Mr Keith Locke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe whole point of a free-trade agreement is that it regulates trade between two particular countries. That is axiomatic, obviously. But we have to know whether the products came from those two countries, and to know that the countries do not act as trans-shipment points for products from other countries that would then seek to take advantage of the free-trade agreement and to have a covert free-trade agreement using the good offices\u2014or, indeed, the bad offices\u2014of one or other of the countries. Certificates of origin are about authenticating that goods have come from one country and are going to another country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EHistorically under the GATT and the World Trade Organization, this has been measured by way of percentage. Goods have had to have a minimum of 60 percent, which was subsequently changed traditionally to 50 percent and then 40 percent as manufacturing became increasingly globalised. Most manufactured goods, for instance, would consist of products from literally all over the world, and the original view of 60 percent simply was unsustainable. Many goods would have a much greater percentage of overseas inputs, so the percentage went down. That is not the contemporary way, because, as globalisation has further developed, what is being looked at now is not so much percentages\u2014which are increasingly hard to measure anyway; they would impose huge compliance costs on the manufacturers in New Zealand and would in many respects negate the advantages of having a free-trade agreement\u2014but the transformation of the goods, the process that occurs in the manufacturing of the goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe question is whether a process has occurred through the New Zealand manufacturing that would, therefore, entitle the goods to have a new origin. It is not about percentages but about whether a manufacturing process has taken place. The same rule now exists in CER, and I recall that that was not the case originally. So free-trade agreements have had to evolve as we have had much more global trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EA huge number of elaborately transformed goods, as the term used to be known, consist of goods from literally all over the world, and measuring percentages is extraordinarily difficult. That is particularly true of a country like New Zealand. By definition, we do not have a comprehensive manufacturing base, where all inputs could be sourced in New Zealand and there could be a high degree of reliability that we would reach the 60 percent or 50 percent of whatever is being made. But we can easily identify whether a process has occurred in New Zealand. That is easy to measure and easy to police for both the New Zealand authorities and, for that matter, the Chinese authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ELooking at it from the other perspective, of New Zealand\u2019s importing goods from China, there are the same rules. It does not really matter so much, because China has a comprehensive industrial structure where basically all the inputs will be manufactured in China, and there is a high degree of reliability that the goods exported from China to New Zealand will be Chinese. That is not the case with New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOf course, members will note I am talking primarily about industrial goods. Agricultural goods, by definition, are different. It is relatively easy to determine whether goods are sourced in one country. Even though the labelling may not have to be in the store, from a customs point of view, it has to be demonstrated that the goods were sourced from one country or another. If we take the situation of agricultural exports from New Zealand to China, we still have to be able to demonstrate that the goods actually originated from New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad1e4aedf41442479891ad5e6246858a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad1e4aedf41442479891ad5e6246858a\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak in the context of Part 2, and follow my colleague Dr Mapp and the assertions he was making. I thought it might be interesting to consider Part 2, where we are amending the Customs and Excise Act 1996 in the context of agricultural produce. For example, when I was ambassador in Iran one could find kiwifruit, but they were of a particular size and shape that was not quite the same as kiwifruit that originated in New Zealand. One could find wool being passed off as New Zealand wool, and Chinese meat in the Iranian market being passed off as New Zealand lamb. The point about the certificates of origin is that they guarantee to the importing country the source of the goods\u2014that the goods had originated there. So in following this process through, in these amendments to the Customs and Excise Act foreshadowed in Part 2, we are protecting the interests of New Zealand agricultural exporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt is easy to produce a pound of butter and put a wrapper around it asserting that it is made in some other country. I do not particularly want to finger countries, but I promise members that it happens. Other documentation is required, also, as part of this process\u2014for example, halal certificates certifying that meat shipments are of animals killed in the appropriate Islamic fashion. We are giving the importing country\u2014in this case, China\u2014a level of satisfaction that the products entering their market under the certification of the New Zealand authorities are what they say they are. In the same way, there will be a similar process at the other end of this telescope, in China, where the Chinese system will be working to give us exactly the same guarantees and certificates, so that we can have satisfaction in this market that we are getting products from China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIn this general context of Part 2, at the select committee we got a submission on this bill from the Christian World Service expressing concern. The Christian World Service felt that poor countries always start on the back foot in trade negotiations, which were, it said, carefully controlled by the richest countries to further their own interests. Well, whether a country is rich or poor, I think every country works to advance its own interests, and we are doing that in the context of Part 2 and the rules we are implementing, which will enable those guarantees to be given. The Christian World Service felt that the communities it was working with\u2014for example, in the Philippines and Mexico, which are increasing agricultural production to feed their people\u2014had seen large-scale migration off the land. But that has nothing to do with the issues we have had to consider under Part 2. It seems to me that we are actually helping other developing countries, particularly those around the Chinese border\u2014for example, Cambodia and Thailand\u2014so that when products get exported to us from China we know that they have come from China and have not slid in under a barrier from another country that might have lower costs of production than those found in China. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022838f761f1056462ba6f782ee280b4835\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is that possible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf2ec293cdfe4164958a30876c85dca3\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is absolutely possible, and I have seen it. I think the other parts of Part 2 are relevant\u2014for example, new section 64B, inserted by clause 14, where we are establishing \u201CBodies authorised to issue New Zealand certificates of origin\u201D. This is fundamentally important, because we need to guarantee to the buyers in other countries that proper process has been followed, and that New Zealand as a reliable trading partner needs to have these certification systems in place in a way that gives confidence to our overseas buyers. I think we fully support those arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI will come back to the point that our Green colleague was discussing, in terms of threats to products like garlic, which I think he was talking about. What is really important is that as we move forward with our trade, and advance arrangements with the Chinese community, increasingly we will have to put into our agricultural processes the systems that can identify the suppliers of products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00226eac593c12bb4930ac8e98fdd109f5d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eac593c12bb4930ac8e98fdd109f5d6\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I follow my colleagues in speaking on Part 2, which makes amendments to the Customs and Excise Act 1996. Under clause 13, the part provides \u201Cfor a system of issuing New Zealand certificates of origin in relation to goods being exported to China under the Free Trade Agreement between the Government of New Zealand and the \u2026 People\u2019s Republic of China\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis is a very important part, and I take issue with the Green member who said it was just all about what bureaucrats did. I do not think I am misrepresenting him\u2014at least, I hope not\u2014but I took that to be what he was saying, and then he said that these provisions were really of no importance. But we have Minister Mahuta in the chair and she, as much as anybody, knows the importance of the mark of a product, the essence of a product. Of course, M\u0101ori have something similar in terms of our cultural products with the Toi Iho mark, which gives a guarantee of quality, of high craftsmanship, and also of some of the wairua that has gone into those products carrying that mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EImmediately it is easy to see why this part is so important. I would be interested in the Minister taking a call just to confirm and reaffirm how important this part is, and that it is certainly not just about bureaucrats and what they have to do; it is about a guarantee of quality. In that sense it is a protection for the product, it is a huge protection for the consumer\u2014the buyer\u2014and it is a protection for those whose transactions send goods by way of export between the countries involved. As I say, it is somewhat like Toi Iho.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EYes, this is about free trade. It is about boosting our ability to trade with other countries around the globe and to remove barriers that inhibit free trade. But it is not about open slather, either, and we owe it to New Zealanders in the first place, and to all those who will be buyers and consumers in China, that there is a brand attached to our products that gives all those people an assurance of the quality and of the essence of those products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002297d4c2e4d833444b8589c6389155262c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297d4c2e4d833444b8589c6389155262c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: We are debating Part 2 of the New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill. By agreement of the Committee we are considering this bill part by part, which has necessitated a narrow debate on each part. The option was offered to the Committee of having a wide-ranging debate; that leave was refused, so we are applying the rules of debate quite strictly. There have been six speakers on Part 2, and the final speaker was the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, who has 43 seconds remaining. She is not here, so are there any other speakers to Part 2? There are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276431e85d2dc471986e487f16e25bd33\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 16\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1a771b850e3486e92a7a62d398a2753\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Radiocommunications Act 1989\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002237562d00639343e994bf759332871e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237562d00639343e994bf759332871e36\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate includes the Minister Hon Phil Goff\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 215.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022d84e882c416645e288fe3801a561c43a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d84e882c416645e288fe3801a561c43a\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call on Part 3, \u201CAmendments to Radiocommunications Act 1989\u201D. According to my understanding, the purpose of Part 3 is identical, in a sense, to Part 5, \u201CAmendments to Electricity Act 1992\u201D, in that they are the two principal Acts affected by the mutual recognition agreement covering electrical and electronic equipment. I will make brief comments about some aspects of the agreement in relation to Part 3, and when we debate Part 5 I may take another call to look at some other aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThis is a highly technical subject, and we should be aware that this debate is linked to deep concern, not just in New Zealand but right throughout the world, about the relationship between standards and international trade agreements. Some people popularly refer to such agreements\u2014deeply misleadingly so\u2014as a \u201Crace to the bottom\u201D. The opponents\u2019 view, which is a complete misreading of what this agreement is about, is that by entering via the globalisation framework into trade agreements of this type, countries like New Zealand or the United States are in some way agreeing to lower their standards to those of other countries\u2014in this case a very large, developing country\u2014and that that is \u201Cappalling\u201D. That is actually a completely wrong interpretation of what this agreement is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn terms of both the mutual recognition agreement and the broader context of the World Trade Organization and other trade agreements, there is nothing to stop New Zealand adopting the standards it wishes to adopt in relation to consumer safety. There is no race to the bottom. There is no reason for New Zealand consumers to be even slightly concerned that this trade agreement will in some way mean a lowering of safety standards on electrical and electronic equipment\u2014far from it. As far as I am aware\u2014obviously I lack technical expertise in this area\u2014we have standards equal to anywhere in the world to protect New Zealanders from poor wiring. We all know we are talking about something that is\u2014potentially\u2014literally lethal. I assume\u2014because I am not aware of a large political debate in this country over this issue\u2014that we have quite adequate safety inspection systems in place. I know that we have issues relating to poor wiring in terms of electrical fires, but I am not aware, for example, of children routinely being electrocuted while opening the fridge, which is, fundamentally, what this issue is about. When we debate Part 5 I will make some other comments about the whole concept of mutual recognition, because it is a very interesting feature of the agreement. I have to say I am surprised, in the pleasant sense of the word, that we have come to an agreement, given some of my own experiences in negotiating mutual recognition agreements. It is quite a credit to the negotiators that this agreement is in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe remaining point I want to make relates to the competitive edge that this agreement gives to New Zealand in terms of the recognitions relating to the conformity assessment processes. As I understand the agreement, this will be a first for China. Of course, in that sense the whole agreement is a first for China\u2014not in terms of all countries but in terms of developed countries. It is not quite correct to say that China has no other free-trade agreements, but this is certainly the first in respect of a developed country. The agreement relating to Part 3, \u201CAmendment to Radiocommunications Act 1989\u201D is indeed a path-breaking effort by China in its first attempt to do this with a small but sophisticated country. We should be very pleased that this agreement is being taken forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e24ea869e5c640ada76a139be0b50572\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e24ea869e5c640ada76a139be0b50572\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I will just develop the point that was being made by my colleague Mr Tim Groser, who of course brings an enormous level of experience to international trade negotiations. One issue that has come through in amendments to Part 3 has arisen because there was some fear by submitters that through this agreement we would essentially be allowing the importation of dangerous electrical goods from China into New Zealand. It seemed to me at the time that those people were misunderstanding the role of international trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI ask the Committee\u2014and I put this to submitters\u2014how successful China would be if it established a reputation as an exporter of dangerous electrical goods to other countries. It is in China\u2019s interests to demonstrate that it is an exporter of high-quality goods, and, by and large, it has been successful in that. We have only to go to any electrical goods store in New Zealand to find a wide range of Chinese-manufactured electrical goods, such as television sets, radios, DVD players, and so forth. In fact, China is already one of the world\u2019s largest\u2014if not the largest\u2014manufacturer of television sets. Those sets are mostly not for local consumption; they are mostly for export. A significant number of Apple iPods are manufactured and assembled in China. The truth is that global companies are increasingly using China as a manufacturing base. Quite clearly, high electrical standards are required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn this instance we are talking about a global trading nation that produces goods of a standard that is safe for New Zealand. I am not suggesting there have been no problems at all\u2014in particular, there have been problems in relation to lead paint in toys. But those things are still covered by our safety regulations. Just because we have a free-trade agreement, that does not mean we will completely abandon all standards around phytosanitary rules, product safety rules, and so forth. Countries still have to comply with those rules, but this is a particular recognition in relation to electrical goods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI know that my colleague Mr Groser very, very carefully discussed the nature of the agreement with members of the Government and former colleagues within the ministry. He made a formal recommendation well before the agreement was signed that that part of the agreement was satisfactory for the protection of the consumers of New Zealand. So what we are doing here today is passing that mutual recognition into legislation. I am suggesting, and, indeed, saying, to New Zealanders and to members of the Committee\u2014particularly to those parties that are opposed\u2014that this is not a reason to vote against the agreement. To be fair, I have not actually heard New Zealand First oppose the agreement on this particular point. It has opposed the agreement on other points but not on this point. The Greens have raised the issue from time to time, and Mr Locke raised it in Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. I will certainly be anticipating their future contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is a curious thing that this debate has been going for approximately 2 hours and virtually all the contributions have been made by National members. We think that this is an important agreement. We understand that there will be a third reading tomorrow, and we wish to facilitate that process\u2014we want this agreement to pass into law. But I must say I am surprised that parties that are opposed to the agreement have not been taking calls. Surely the people\u2019s Chamber is where parties might actually set out their arguments as to why the agreement is not beneficial for New Zealand. I have to ask those three parties whether they are a little bit embarrassed about not supporting this agreement. It is widely supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb9a8fb665f47bd8940802ebce55518\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member get back to the part?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb8a06805b64b6c9288f53895744857\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: It is rightly supported, and I say to Mr Brown that this is not one of those parts of the agreement that he need be concerned about. There is safety for New Zealand consumers based on this acceptance of the standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00220275b628d2d94dc495d13b77dcfa580f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220275b628d2d94dc495d13b77dcfa580f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before John Hayes takes the floor, I wonder whether we could really concentrate on what Part 3 actually says. I ask the speakers to read the part. It is actually about New Zealand conformance, not Chinese conformance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9dc24151d9541b78fa5610454d7cd2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9dc24151d9541b78fa5610454d7cd2c\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much Madam Chair, but I would draw to your attention that there is a mirror-image process going on in the Chinese system so that the two sides of the telescope actually connect in the middle. It is, of course, a minor point. I will address the question that you put to the Chamber, which is the question of Part 3. I would particularly like my colleagues in the New Zealand First Party, the M\u0101ori Party, and the Green Party who oppose this bill to look at this document: New Zealand - China Free Trade Agreement (And Associated Instruments): National Interest Analysis. I doubt that anyone in this House, with the exception of those on the select committee, will have taken the time to go through that document and to work out what it is talking about. I would particularly like to draw Mr Brown\u2019s attention to page 15 and paragraph 3.1.4 of that document, which talks about the need to make sure that our technical regulations in New Zealand\u2014that is, that the electricity supply will be 240 volts and so many cycles, and have so much insulation\u2014do not constitute a significant barrier to trade in a similar way to tariffs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWithout formal arrangements it is difficult to engage with other countries at that technical level, which is why this bill includes Part 3. What we are trying to say here is that our technical experts in China and in New Zealand need to have a mechanism for meeting together to discuss issues between them. In my electorate, where people have recently invented a machine for monitoring milk production through the use of electronic eartags so that, for example, one can predict mastitis before it becomes a clinical problem, one needs to get people on both sides of this trade agreement having common rules and understanding that this equipment satisfies rules in China. If the Chinese people feel they do not, then one needs a mechanism for dealing with the debate. Because of that we have to make amendments, as required here in Part 3, to the Electricity Act 1992 and the Radiocommunications Act 1989. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis is the Radiocommunications Act part of the arrangement, and it is to create regulation making powers to enable legal action to be taken against people who do not fulfil the requirements of international obligations while purporting to do so, and to provide for the seizure, sealing, or impounding of products in cases of non-compliance with the requirement of the two Acts, including in relation to the Environmental Risk Management Authority. This is done in part by Order in Council, and also by the Radiocommunications Act 1989. It will enable legal action to be taken against people who break the rules. That is the function of this legislation that we are debating now. It is in the New Zealand communities\u2019 interests to do this. [Interruption] I realise that Mr Brown does not have any constituents, at least in an electorate sense, but I can assure him that if he was an electorate MP like me, and if he talked to people and represented their views, he would know that Part 3 is a significant benefit to them. I urge New Zealand First members to really think about what they are doing here and to support this element of the bill even if they do not support the whole concept. Opposing this is actually working against the interests of every New Zealander. That is why, I say to Mr Brown, 80,000 people have left the country in the last 12 months\u201445,000 of them to Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213aa48e0aae948da980f90e56c8e4902\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad4ea15f092643d48fa7417cd0e0ad4f\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: It is because we have poor government. That is why, in Part 3, we are acting to make sure that our community has good rules and that the community will feel good about living under them. People feel threatened by this legislation we are passing, but I say to them that there is no need for that. If those who opposed the bill had actually read this national interest analysis, they would see that there is absolutely no way one could oppose Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 215 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e789cbc52ed474abb783998562d1d55\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222aed3298c3444bf491b268ab83f371c4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2643e3de1b94469be36f02c44bafba5\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Fair Trading Act 1986\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002273ffa2df8cc44b9f94dbf475cb40c9cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273ffa2df8cc44b9f94dbf475cb40c9cd\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call on Part 4, \u201CAmendments to Fair Trading Act 1986\u201D. I particularly want to discuss two clauses in this part: clause 21, which deals with the purpose of this part, and clause 23, which deals with a new section to be inserted. Members may wonder why I am taking a call on this particular part, given that it concerns quite a tight piece of the Act. Part 4 deals with cooperation in the field of conformity assessment in relation to electrical and electronic equipment and components. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EOnce again, members may wonder why I am taking a call on that particular part. It so happens that I have two companies in my electorate\u2014two somewhat successful businesses. One goes by the name of Vectek Electronics and the other goes by the name of Future Products Group Ltd. Both these companies are involved in the manufacture and export of electronic products. Both companies will be involved in manufacturing and exporting these products to China, and both will be affected by those particular clauses in terms of ensuring that they conform with the requirements relating to electrical and electronic equipment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will start with Vectek Electronics, which is an amazing business\u2014a phoenix out of the ashes of PDL Electronics from Napier. PDL Electronics was led by a gentleman by the name of Keith Valentine, who has been quite a visionary in Napier and in New Zealand circles in terms of electronics manufacturing. He is an amazing gentleman who started the company pretty much from nothing. It is now a business that makes over $20 million from the export of electronic products throughout the globe\u2014to America, to Korea, to Japan, and to China. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that one might not think this business would be able to compete in those markets, but it produces power smoothing equipment in the electronics area. Power smoothing is used in factories in Korea and China that produce superconductors and microchips. Those factories require specific power smoothing because, as members may be aware, there is an abundance of power in China and that power is highly volatile. It requires significant smoothing to ensure that the power delivered into the factories is smooth and that the equipment used to manufacture microchips does not fall over all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EVectek Electronics is an amazing business that will be affected by Part 4, particularly clauses 21 and 23. It will have to make sure that the power smoothers it manufactures in Napier and exports to China conform to these standards and make the grade. I believe that, as a result of the free-trade agreement, Vectek Electronics will be in a much stronger position to grow exports from New Zealand and to grow wealth, jobs, and income in Napier. It is an amazing business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe second business is called Future Products Group Ltd. It was started in 1992 by a gentleman by the name of Rob Darroch. It started with two carpenters who were producing supermarket checkouts. This company is now an amazing business that has grown significantly. It currently has exports of around $25 to $30 million, and it has a vision of achieving exports to the value of $50 million over the next 5 years. It started with supermarket checkouts, but it has now moved into refrigeration units and the electronic equipment behind refrigeration units. It has done a lot of the McDonald\u2019s supermarket franchises. In fact, it is now one of the four McDonald\u2019s outfitters in the South Pacific, particularly for the McCaf\u00E9s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe company has had an opportunity to produce up to 500 McCaf\u00E9s on the west coast of America, but within Napier and New Zealand it is unable to meet that demand. So it is now looking at joint manufacture in China of some of the refrigeration units, and at exporting some of the product to China in order to add to the manufacture and take up some of its export opportunities. As a company it will also have to deal with Part 4. It will have to make sure that it is conforming to the electrical and electronic equipment standards that are required for export under this free-trade agreement. I think this is a great opportunity for those two companies, and I thank you, Madam Chairperson, for the opportunity to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221573592264f644dca39d3430a2c414cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f84e6557752b4d29b018b8cf42eb05c6\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to Electricity Act 1992\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00226aeaf8b52dc74a09ab9b87dabb331c4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aeaf8b52dc74a09ab9b87dabb331c4e\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Essentially we are dealing with the same underlying issue. This part is enabling legislation to make changes to the Electricity Act 1992, in order to allow the concept that we have been discussing under Part 3 and Part 4, the mutual recognition agreement, to take place. So let us quickly rehearse the key point here. This is not about adopting China\u2019s standards; this is based on New Zealand standards. But we are relying, in this particular defined area, on conformity assessments that the New Zealand standards in respect of imports from China have met the requirements of our own Electricity Act\u2014and vice versa in respect of Chinese standards, which are often based on similar international standards. Therefore, it is taken as read that our exports are consistent with Chinese standards before they leave the shores. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThat has a number of advantages for our exporters, and we heard two excellent examples of that from my colleague Mr Tremain. I am familiar with both of those companies. They are the sorts of knowledge-type companies that this country so desperately needs. Of course, we would like to see some of them step up in terms of scale. Frankly, in order to transform our country we need to have only about 20 Fisher and Paykel Healthcares, if you will\u2014I could use another example\u2014to utterly transform this country and get it back into the top league of developed countries. That will be done by small steps, including through this very important agreement to provide the best possible framework for the future export growth of those companies, which are based on the creativity of New Zealanders that all of us in this Chamber know exists up and down the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second point I would like to make is that Part 5 is not just about the New Zealand regulations; it is also about reciprocity\u2014the export of New Zealand. If we look at clause 28(2) and (3), we see specific reference to exports from New Zealand \u201Cpursuant to the Conformity Cooperation Agreement\u201D. Clause 28(2)(b) adds some definition to that, as does clause 28(3). So we are talking about a reciprocal agreement of mutual benefit to both parties to the free-trade agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EChina now seems to have acquired the title \u201Cthe workshop of the world\u201D. It is an intriguing title when one reflects on the fact that a little more than 200 years ago that title was given to the first country ever to make the transition from an agrarian to an industrial base, the United Kingdom\u2014the workshop of the world, it was then known as. Now we have a new and giant contender. We will be relying on Chinese electronic goods for many purposes in our own country over the next 25 years, as a simple reflection of that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI do hope that this agreement provides New Zealand consumers not only with greater assurances but with the right sort of framework to see cooperation of an overtly commercial nature develop, of the type Mr Tremain was indicating in respect of voltage regulators. The voltage regulators used in semiconductor factories are the most sophisticated types of regulators that exist in the world, given the fact that each semiconductor factory requires investment these days of between US$4 billion and US$6 billion. So voltage change is a fundamental issue for those companies, and it is great to see a New Zealand company has stepped up to the mark and is working with a giant electronic industry in East Asia, and particularly in China. I have no doubt that this agreement will help companies of that type. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI will make just a few observations about the underlying concept of mutual recognition, because I think it is a difficult concept to grasp. It is really an alternative to business harmonisation policy in trade agreements. Once we have dealt with the first-tier issues of overt frontier protection, then we try to work out how to reduce barriers to trade by measures behind the frontier. This concept is of that type.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00224cfebdafd4dc427e97cb61758aaae431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cfebdafd4dc427e97cb61758aaae431\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I am now speaking on Part 5, \u201CAmendments to Electricity Act 1992\u201D. This is very similar to\u2014it is almost a mirror of\u2014Part 3, which deals with radiocommunications, but this part clearly influences issues around electrical machinery. The point of it is to create regulation-making powers to enable legal action to be taken against persons who do not fulfil the requirements of international obligations while purporting to do so, and to provide for the seizure, sealing, or impounding of products in cases of non-compliance with the requirements of the two Acts. This also operates through an Order in Council, and surely my colleagues in New Zealand First, United Future, the Green Party, and the M\u0101ori Party would understand that it is in the interest of New Zealand consumers of electrical products\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d84a60bdc5463e8612b3c98618dce4\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re in favour of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebaebcf7cd87462fa00967049e098bb5\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014sorry; I thought the member\u2019s party was voting against it\u2014and exporters of those products to have that legal safeguard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Mr Groser has pointed out, we are dealing here with a tier-two issue. The trade remedies section of the free-trade agreement has preserved New Zealand\u2019s rights to apply safeguard measures within the World Trade Organization\u2019s umbrella arrangement. That allows either China or New Zealand to address situations where serious injury to a domestic industry is caused by increased exports due, for example, to reductions in a tariff or non-tariff barrier. China already has a very significant share of our export market and our import market, and the drops in our trading barriers, really since the mid-1980s, have meant that none of the provisions in this bill will have a significant impact on small to medium-sized businesses in New Zealand. So I think there are really significant strategic gains for our country to be had from the adoption of Part 5 and the legislation in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI really urge my colleagues in the Green Party to think about what they are voting against here. They are actually voting against the interests of New Zealand companies and New Zealand citizens. Why would they do that? New Zealand citizens elected them to come here to this Parliament to represent their interests. I cannot see that in a technical matter like this, those members can possibly vote against what is being suggested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe technical cooperative mechanisms will be needed to minimise the impact of regulations on trade, and this process will also enable dialogue between our countries. Both countries will get a much better understanding of arrangements between them, because they will have mechanisms for discussing issues that may be concerning them. So I think that Part 5 is effectively a mechanism that will reduce transaction costs for our merchandise trade, because both countries will harmonise their requirements, or make their requirements the same. In the process of recognising an equivalence of the other party\u2019s technical regulations, our regulations and the Chinese regulations will become the same. That conformity between our two countries has to be good; it actually has to be to the benefit of our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI think that Part 5 provides a particularly good example of that second-tier benefit to our community, and I urge the Green Party, the M\u0101ori Party, and the New Zealand First Party to support this part of the bill, even if they cannot support the overall concept of the free-trade agreement. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0bf8182c7c741b5a89dc6cb89ff1f3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0bf8182c7c741b5a89dc6cb89ff1f3f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E There was an article in the Independent just last week headed \u201CHidden hooks emerge in China FTA\u201D, and I think the article does relate to Part 5. It is about standards\u2014in this case, standards for electrical goods\u2014and one chap by the name of Andrew Little, who is the national secretary of the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union, is quoted here. I note that he is a member of the Labour Party and in some minds is pencilled in to be a future leader of that party. But he is rather concerned about some of these fish-hooks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAndrew Little is worried, and he says his sector is worried, about the ability of employers and unions to verify and authenticate the qualifications of temporary Chinese workers. Instead of the Chinese industries being worried about New Zealand exports of electrical goods to China being in conformity with their standards, which this part is all about, they could say they will take over a New Zealand company, run it themselves, and import all the Chinese standards here. But, as Mr Little says, the quality of the work might not be up to our standards, if we cannot check properly the skills of the temporary workers who are to be allowed in under the free-trade agreement. There is a quota being allowed in, and who knows, really? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe standard of the skills can change in our regulations, but there is a clause in the treaty saying that if the skill standard in the New Zealand skilled migrant programme is raised for, say, electrical manufacturing workers, the old standard can continue to apply for up to 3 years to the quota of Chinese skilled workers who are to be allowed in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213e4c313929407abefbd0c592dcd5a2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Locke, you are actually straying away from the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ebbe876b404dea8c560ccd8285298d\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is to do with keeping in conformity with the standards for the export of electronic goods to China\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc9679dfb4749f1950deb2bef584e6c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but not to do with the skills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278cd77f0164a41969823ecf859e1b260\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: In the case of Vector Wellington Electricity Network, the lines section of the electrical system has already been taken over by a Chinese firm, and that could well be extended into the manufacturing industry. That is a problem. Fletcher Construction chief executive Mark Binns, in this article, is also worried about the competition from cheap Chinese labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThroughout business, there are concerns. The latest Exporter magazine has just come out. It has a snap poll, and the first comment is \u201CSo what? There will be more in it for them than us.\u201D\u2014\u201Cthem\u201D being the Chinese. Another comment says \u201CI have exported to China and am now working closely with the distributor but the Chinese authorities make it very hard, with all the documents and charges for getting products approved.\u201D Another says \u201CI might be old-fashioned\u201D\u2014this is an exporter\u2014\u201Cbut I want some of our country left for our children and grandchildren. If they are going to eventually earn 50c an hour, then I guess I could also go to China and make my fortune now and stuff the rest! But, no.\u201D So that is the sort of problem we are up against when we just open the doors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThis part relating to the electrical standards is well meant, but in the context of the total agreement it might actually lead to a further undermining of the standards for our workers and for our industries, and not lead to any particular gain for the New Zealand people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022f51f972faf7c409bb875f453de74f7b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f51f972faf7c409bb875f453de74f7b5\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will make just a few concluding remarks about Part 5 in terms of the underlying mutual recognition agreement concept, since it is a very difficult concept for people to get their heads around, as I was saying before. It is essentially an alternative to what used to be flavour of the month 20 years ago: business harmonisation. We discovered in our first real attempt to do this\u2014with Australia in the context of CER\u2014just how difficult it is to advance harmonised policies, because at the end of the day what we are really trying to do when we say \u201Charmonise your policy\u201D is to say \u201CYou adopt my policy or I will adopt yours.\u201D In practice, there is massive resistance from both sides to adopting an entirely new policy. It is so much more sensible to go down the track of mutual recognition, which, in common language, would be to say that there are more ways to skin a cat than one, or that there are different ways\u2014if I use the refrigerator example again\u2014to wire a refrigerator so that it is safe for kids to open and get a glass of milk, or whatever it is they want. There are different ways of doing that to achieve the equivalent results. So it is about coming out of that whole concept of equivalence without trying to say there is only one particular wiring diagram we can use to achieve the effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI do not know intellectually what the origin of mutual recognition is but, in a practical political sense in the trading arena, we sort of learnt this from the Australians. In Australia I found to my surprise that the actual concept of mutual recognition of different Australian states\u2019 standards is actually of relatively recent origin, and there are still many areas and services where mutual recognition is yet to be achieved, if I am not mistaken. I became familiar with it when I was the lead negotiator for New Zealand on the Singapore free-trade agreement, and we introduced into the Singaporean mindset the concept of mutual recognition agreement. It was, I have to say, a revolutionary concept for the Singaporeans, deeply sophisticated though they are in electronic and other matters, and generally as a country. We had to arrange to sell them the underlying idea that we are talking about in Part 5. We had to take New Zealand experts to Singapore to educate Singaporean regulators on what the underlying conceptual approach was. It took a bit of time to sell, but it was incorporated into the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI think it is an excellent advance now to have taken this into a far, far more important trade agreement, the China free-trade agreement. Essentially, it reduces compliance costs and facilitates trade, and it is very much my hope that the Chinese in particular will see the point in extending this into other areas. In every case there has to be a high degree of trust amongst the regulators; it does not work if there is distrust between regulators. The problem in this area is that regulators are often specific to sectors, so quite a lot of people-to-people exchanges are needed to make this work, and a lot of information flow is needed. But I think that potentially the economic returns long-term are very, very considerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI hope that the Chinese as well as our own Government will use this entire trade agreement, including its mutual recognition elements, in a proactive sense. I have no doubt that New Zealand will be seeking to do that. I strongly believe that from a Chinese perspective this agreement makes sense, frankly, only if the Chinese can use this as a template for their own internal purposes and their own negotiations with countries\u2014countries, let us face it, that are rather more important to them than their 45th or 48th largest export market, or whatever New Zealand is\u2014and I hope that we will come back into a future Parliament and see introduced into it similar legislation that builds on this agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7744c87d23041639a6b2b4754fc8bbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7744c87d23041639a6b2b4754fc8bbc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call on this part, but after listening to the honourable member I must make a few points. First of all, the Singapore - New Zealand free-trade agreement is hugely advantageous to Singapore. Let us not kid ourselves. Singapore has done very, very well out of that agreement. The member sits there and quotes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022891fbe63d6194df082baebf724e0fa2a\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Give us an example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5232bd24ab46d49f4f35abff812b82\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Singapore is of similar population size to New Zealand. China\u2019s population is 1.3 billion, or something along those lines, compared with a country with a population of 4 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e5d997719c442bf905119655987fa5f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s Winston doing there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32fbe288f054cdba339cb66cfb946e6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Those members are embarrassed. They can ask questions only about irrelevant subjects at this point in time. If the member who has just resumed his seat thinks that China is going to harmonise its electrical industry because New Zealand has signed a free-trade agreement, then I ask him who the hell he thinks he is fooling. I think he might have fooled his own party, but I notice that Government members on this side of the Chamber are staying silent. They are not standing up in support, because they know in their heart of hearts that this will not deliver as Mr Groser tried to make out. If we wanted to buy umpteen refrigerators from the Chinese, they would be making them now for us. They would make them to the standard we wanted, sell them, and deliver them on Chinese ships. We are fooling ourselves if we think that this agreement will have a major influence on the Chinese electrical industry. It will not. We are but a teardrop in a river.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have sat here all night trying to listen so I can find out what this trade agreement is about in detail. I have listened to the National Party people but I have not learnt or gleaned one iota from them. I can only conclude that they themselves do not even know what it is about. They think it is a good thing, and I give them credit for that, but they do not understand the details. I ask National Party members what is in it for the Chinese. If they think there is nothing in it for the Chinese, they really are fooling themselves. I have had some dealings with the Chinese people in other fields of endeavour, and I can say that the Chinese look after the Chinese first and foremost. I can say that when it comes to electrical goods the Chinese will be doing exactly the same as they do in any other field of endeavour, which is putting their own country, their own people, and their own economic well-being first. They do not particularly look after their people. In fact, the working people in China work under terrible conditions. But I will say that if we wanted to buy refrigerators, as the honourable member suggested we might want to, then the Chinese would build them by the million if that is what we wanted, and to the standard that we want here. But to sign a free-trade agreement on that rather naive basis is beyond words. It is stupid to the maximum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI would like the National members to conscientiously address this issue and tell us what is in it. There was an invitation to have a wide-ranging debate, and National turned that down. I have not heard one of its speakers stick to the part religiously and tell us what is what, including this part. And the member there, who is putting his hands together, in major parts of his speech, talked of his concerns about what New Zealand First is thinking. We do not need a free-trade agreement to have a market in electrical goods with the Chinese. They would saturate us with anything we wanted. If we gave them the order they would allow our firms to go out and employ Chinese to manufacture there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1c8035b49340cca45115db8658d37c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brown, please keep to the part concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c289f182508478eb623405e48ca63cd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am keeping to the part concerned, but I am also actually responding to some of the comments from National members that you, Madam Chairperson, have let go, and I cannot let them go uncontested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have not heard one reason in the debate on this part, or any other part, why this nation should sign a free-trade agreement with the Chinese. I would like to hear something from the National Party, because its members are sitting over there saying that they know it all and that they have all the answers. Well I am saying that in years to come there will be a Tui sign, saying: \u201CFree-trade agreement advantage to New Zealand? Yeah, right!\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d168637e05d54238935ca403538e80e8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Mr Brownlee, I just warn him that the debate will be wider when we get to clauses 1 and 2, which is really what that last speech was about. I do not want a repetition, so I hope that the member is going to speak on Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfbc068a9bf74e45ba13423facda51a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfbc068a9bf74e45ba13423facda51a9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Of course I will follow the rules of debate. Madam Chair, you will appreciate that one of the rules of debate is that one gets to rebut at the start of one\u2019s comments. So I will take a moment, with your indulgence, to rebut some of the extraordinary things said by Peter Brown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFirst off, Mr Brown confirmed the xenophobic nature of New Zealand First. He then announced to the entire Parliament that New Zealand\u2019s Minister of Foreign Affairs\u2014New Zealand First\u2019s party leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014is also a xenophobe. He is hanging around Singapore at the present time and trying to impress various foreign dignitaries, presumably touting his own CV so that he has something to do later in the year. But the extraordinary thing that came through from Mr Brown\u2019s speech was the suggestion that the Chinese are being cunning here, and that they will swamp us with refrigerators and all sorts of electrical goods. So here is the deal: China, with 1 billion people, is looking to expand its market by doing a deal with a country with 4 million people in it. We are not even the size of a small suburb of Beijing, but apparently we will do wonders for the Chinese economy! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWell, I have some news for Mr Brown. Despite Winston Peters\u2019 best efforts, New Zealand is still primarily an agrarian economy\u2014we are great producers of agricultural products. One of the things that will surprise Mr Brown and New Zealand First is that a lot of the 1 billion people in China are hungry. They actually want to buy the proteins that we produce, they want to buy the milk solids that we produce, and they are very interested in the myriad of other products that we produce. They cannot get enough of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be92c2a12e9f46408e19cc333ffa6580\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, you are two-fifths of the way through your speech and you are not yet talking about the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8a36b40a06a4ecc9f85fcba409eabe8\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Am I really three-quarters of the way through 5 minutes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997543eb2bbb443fa26f221434fa7b37\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Two-fifths of the way through. That is not a beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260c1761c38ae441e86ef202c80aa1156\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Chair, I am rebutting a whole 5-minute speech, for goodness\u2019 sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa80f47505af4b27a234ccc3bed9c288\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267d371e30ddf4bc4a41d60d730f9fd23\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I will not keep you a lot longer. I just want to say to Mr Brown that he should wake up and smell the roses. He should stop believing all the nonsense that his leader tells him. Most people know that most of what he says is a load of rubbish anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 215 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 28 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b65b82495cb344c580bde9b6b4e36134\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022952e4dcd45d94048a3f1500f9be4b096\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287d600e5460a47e8a6270a614d1946cf\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204ff946424e145b9b03260f55f7aaea9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022474c6b2441414c988b36406500684e33\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002242011283e9f346c89abb12d405cd0cc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242011283e9f346c89abb12d405cd0cc7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before we begin the debate on these clauses I will read members Speaker\u2019s ruling 106/2. \u201CWhen debating the preliminary clauses at the end, members should have some latitude to summarise, and make concluding remarks about, the issues they have raised during the committee\u2019s consideration of the bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00222a9618c65b294c09ae512b5307a1bddb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a9618c65b294c09ae512b5307a1bddb\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In the discussion on Part 5, which we have just heard, Mr Brown said he had not heard one reason from National as to why we need a free-trade agreement with China. He then added\u2014and I wrote it down\u2014\u201CTell us what is in it for New Zealand.\u201D I know that it was probably not intended as a serious question, and I am even more certain that it does not deserve a serious answer. Nevertheless, ignoring those simple facts, I will proceed in the assumption that there might just be a New Zealand First person listening to this debate who is still wondering what on earth the New Zealand First problem with this bill is. I will try to answer the question as if it were a serious point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI think we have to start with an appreciation of the fundamental challenge facing New Zealand economically. The fundamental challenge is to raise real wages. The fundamental solution is to increase total factor productivity, and the fundamental best way to achieve that is to increase the export orientation of our economy. We know that New Zealand, far from being a small but great trading nation, is actually at the absolute bottom of the heap of the 15 small developed countries with a population of 10 million or less in terms of the ratio of trade to GDP. It is of fundamental, long-term importance, even to those 4 to 5 percent who vote for New Zealand First, that we change this over the next 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EA variety of things must be done in this country if we are to address this underlying economic challenge, and one of the issues is to provide markets for New Zealand. Anyone with any actual appreciation, let alone any real-world experience, of the international trading situation facing New Zealand in the last 30 years is well aware that of all the developed countries in the world, large or small, this country\u2014our country\u2014has been more constrained by the lack of access to markets for the products we produce competitively than any country in the world. There are myriad studies to back up that judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo against the background of 30 years of, frankly, bitter struggle by \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D, both the major political parties have been in charge of the country, and we have had Prime Ministers, trade Ministers, farming leaders, and all manner of New Zealanders\u2014including people like Dr Walker, and myself, in my former job\u2014trying to find a solution for access for New Zealand markets. Then what happens? A giant emerging economy, which is responsible for 24 percent of the population of the world, comes to New Zealand\u2019s door and asks whether we would like, essentially, completely free access, in about a decade, for whatever we can produce. I am sorry, but if one\u2019s answer to that is no, one would have to be a prime candidate for village idiot of the year. That is the underlying point of this agreement, and it related right back, through that logical train, to the need to ensure that the young people coming up in our country can make a future for themselves in this country. The right way to do this is to provide competitive opportunities. This is fundamentally important to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have a situation where we know that the Chinese people are moving up in the income world. Thirty-four percent of Chinese people are nowadays in the $1 to $2-a-day bracket. This is miles ahead of the other giant developing country, India, which still has something like 70 percent of its population in the $1 to $2-a-day bracket. We know that China will manage its way through the super-fast growth problems, the inflationary issues, and the issue of churn in its employment markets. China will continue to grow at a stellar rate. It will need this country\u2014this small country of which we are all so proud\u2014to provide the high-quality foodstuffs that Mr Brownlee just referred to in the first response to this, frankly, very ill-conceived attempt by New Zealand First to provide a thin rationale for its position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00226f207d6f83634ac7a5df6fd8c08caf24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f207d6f83634ac7a5df6fd8c08caf24\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Boy, when Tim Groser gets his knickers in a twist, they sure get in a tangle. Let me say to the honourable member who has just resumed his seat that I have here an extract from Exporter magazine. This is what it states: \u201CFor some exporters, New Zealand\u2019s free-trade agreement with China is a decisive triumph, laying a clear pipeline for future revenues. For other China old hands, the FTA\u2019s future benefits remain illusory, considering the sheer cultural divide and business complexity China poses.\u201D It goes on to state: \u201CAnecdotal evidence suggests Kiwi business owners are not rushing to the middle kingdom. Those already steeped in the Chinese market say the FTA with China should not be seen as a panacea to Kiwi exporters\u2019 aspirations to crack the Chinese market.\u201D If we listened to Mr Groser we would think it was the be all and end all of everything. But I say to the honourable member, what is in it for the Chinese? That is what we should be examining. I can tell him that they see a huge advantage. But Mr Groser told us, when he was debating the tariff issue, that we are going to export more wine and the Chinese are going to drink our wine by the bucket load. Who is he kidding? The Chinese culture does not allow its people to get involved in wine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022328ae903a90549a3bc84e4fcd4a1ebf8\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t know anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1115b47d064bebbc0373def4f93309\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The Chinese do not drink grape-produced wine in great quantities. I can tell members that now. This is not going to change it. For God\u2019s sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ELet me talk a bit about the humanitarian concerns that we share. China operates under a Draconian employment regime; that is the only way we can talk about it. It has very low wages\u2014peanut wages\u2014long hours of work for all ages, with no age restrictions; young people, old people, all working long hours for peanut wages. It has very poor working conditions, and little or no employment commitment from the employer. Is that the sort of people we want to have a free-trade agreement with? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91e0b88e06d4d168153a10f4d7aaf4e\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: You want it to go faster, Peter. Get your story right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4140af8aa9d42b4a0c65e6b7ef50ffe\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we know that Dr Mapp wants to employ New Zealanders and sack them within 90 days. What about the working-holiday scheme that is in place? This is what it says in the select committee report: \u201CThe scheme is non-reciprocal, and provides for a maximum of 1,000 Chinese entrants per annum. As with other similar schemes, the scheme is an arrangement of less than treaty status.\u201D On an earlier page in the same document, where it refers to temporary entry, it states that it will: \u201Cprovide for entry of Chinese business visitors and installers/servicers for up to three months in any calendar year. Executives and managers are permitted to enter as intra-corporate transferees, for up to three years. Also as intra-corporate transferees, senior specialists are permitted to enter for up to 12 months and other specialists\u2014subject to labour market tests\u2014for up to three years.\u201D That is what we have agreed to. That is what we are rolling over. That is what this country is giving in to. I can tell the Committee that the Chinese have more intelligence in their little finger, than that group of National Party MPs have in their whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI know that this agreement will pass tonight, but I would have liked to see it pass for the right reasons. I have sat here and listened to National members for 2 or 3 hours now and I have not heard anything worthwhile. They have given me the total impression\u2014and I have tried to approach it objectively\u2014that they are rolling over for the Chinese and they want the country to roll over for them, too. The Chinese have 1.3 billion people; we have 4 million people. They are taking us in and making fools of this nation. This party, and the Greens and the M\u0101ori Party, say that we will put New Zealand\u2019s interests first, and this free-trade agreement is not doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002207325ddc3127455f8f99653eee66006e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207325ddc3127455f8f99653eee66006e\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Tim Groser, quite a bit earlier on, was particularly worried about using this trade agreement in some way to advance human rights concerns\u2014that is, in relation to the Green position that it is very bad timing to be signing an agreement a couple of weeks out from the Olympic Games when there is such a huge campaign to try to use this period to improve the human rights of Chinese people by supporting those millions of Chinese who are struggling against the one-party State that rules over them for greater human rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe arguments used by Tim Groser were in contradiction to our foreign policy. One of his arguments was that there are human rights violations everywhere and that if we used trade to advance human rights concerns we would have to use it against all of those countries. We are selective in our foreign policy as to how we use whatever instrument, a carrot or a stick, to achieve a gain for human rights. In South Africa we used sanctions; in other countries we have used other ways. There is anything from sanctions to rewards. The Green position is not to put any additional sanctions on China. We support trade agreements with China. We support trade with China. What we are against is giving a preferential agreement\u2014free entry of Chinese goods into our country\u2014and signing this agreement right at this time, which is the very wrong time to do it. We can have the arguments about the goodness of the agreement as a whole, but the timing is completely wrong. The idea that we do not use instruments or rewards in foreign policy to achieve human rights gains is totally wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is the idea that economic development and the development of an educated middle class etc. is commonly accompanied by an improvement in human rights, and that has happened to some degree in China today. There have been some advances, but that does not always happen and it does not always happen if the world tolerates dictatorship. We saw it in Germany, which was the most advanced industrial country. That did not mean to say that it was advanced in human rights during the Hitler period. We see it today in the most advanced economy, the United States, where there has been a huge deterioration of human rights\u2014for example, Guant\u00E1namo Bay, the complete abuse of proper trial procedures, high rates of execution, etc, which have been a very bad model for human rights in the world, and that is in the most developed economy. So there is more to it than just saying that industrial development will be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think that the idea that trade is the answer to everything is wrong, too. Sure New Zealand has advanced through being a major trading nation, but it is not necessarily the best way forward to say that we will replace our manufacturing economy and we will let Chinese competition, through low wages, smash that, and that we will compensate by increased agricultural exports. That would end up with an economy that is not balanced and that is more at the whim of the international economy and international markets etc. That is not the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe ideology that trade is everything and the proportion of trade to GDP is everything is not the way forward for New Zealand, particularly as we approach peak oil. The costs of trade, in some respects, will increase and countries are looking to greater food sovereignty and such things, and rightly so, given the way the international market in food has led to huge problems in many countries. There are huge increases in price because the free-trading environment is often substituted for local food production, and that has led to much higher costs and devastation for millions of people worldwide. We see that in the big demonstrations and riots that are occurring in several countries. That is partly a result of the ideology that trade is everything and balanced economies are nothing. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00228f35b4e134d84102961824968c107ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f35b4e134d84102961824968c107ac7\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I guess those closing remarks by Mr Keith Locke say it all! He would say to New Zealand farmers that they are wasting their time and should not produce anything for the international market. He does not think anyone should buy their products. In his view, who really cares that New Zealand is the most efficient producer of dairy products in the world and the most efficient producer of meat, and who really worries that trading is how we primarily derive our international income? He thinks that farmers should be focused on supplying the New Zealand population. I guess there was a time\u2014a few hundred years ago\u2014when New Zealand had a population of about 200,000 and supplying our population was all that was done in this country. It was local agriculture for the supply of those people alone. The truth is that our production then simply did not reach the potential, in the slightest sense, of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI remind Mr Locke that this world has 6 billion people. We need food to be grown in the most effective and efficient places in the world in order to sustain that population. If there was not international trade, the world simply could not support a population of 6 billion people. I say to Mr Keith Locke that his understanding of economics, as shown by those last comments, is frankly appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c89a15dc0445c89a050d4abbc9eb5e\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not against trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efd06a4c59547e4ad967163c592ca11\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: He says he is not really against trade, but his policies would stop the world being fed. He is simply wrong, and his policies are false. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe second argument by Mr Locke that I feel I have to address is the human rights argument. He said that China is having an Olympic Games and therefore it is a bad time to have a free-trade agreement. What an absurdity! I would have thought the complete opposite of that. China is opening up to the world. Yes, there were difficulties in Tibet, and, interestingly enough, this time China understood the world\u2019s message on that and was substantially more restrained than perhaps it would have been in earlier years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab589b229fb4eadb7f9d2c2f2e1efe6\u0022\u003ETim Groser\u003C/span\u003E: 1989.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7ca3df096054fffa793d866adf985cf\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, in particular it was more restrained than it was in Tiananmen Square in 1989, as my colleague Mr Groser has mentioned. So China has learnt that being internationally engaged brings with it international responsibility. Am I saying China is perfect? Obviously, I am not. China has a great way to go yet, but it has hugely improved compared with how it was in 1989 and in years prior. Almost all of that is because China is now open to the world; the world looks at it and judges it. China has the Olympic Games, and this is the perfect time to have a free-trade agreement because it cements into being that opening to the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAs for the views of the New Zealand First Party, I say to Mr Peter Brown that he should get his story right. His leader said that New Zealand First was opposed to the free-trade agreement because it was not fast enough; he said getting completely free trade in 10 years was not fast enough. I guess I would have to say to the officials that if they wanted a New Zealand First vote, they should have negotiated a 5-year phase-out of tariffs, and they might have got New Zealand First\u2019s vote then. If that is the argument, then Mr Brown cannot say this is a bad agreement because it opens New Zealand up to trade. The story has to be one or the other; it cannot be both. I suggest that Mr Brown talk to his leader and get his story right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENational does support this agreement, for profoundly important economic reasons. Mr Groser set those reasons out superbly. New Zealand\u2019s future is as a trading nation. We have an extremely poor performance amongst small OECD countries, and I know the Government knows that. The work by David Skilling shows that amongst the 15 small OECD countries, the proportion of our economy that is devoted to international trading is actually the lowest. We should be doing better and we have to do better. The way to do that is to find the points of advantage\u2014to find the trade agreements. This agreement is such an agreement. Indeed, I say to the Government that this is a very important agreement, and I acknowledge that. When the historians look at the record of this Labour Government, they will say this agreement should go down as one of its significant achievements. Why would any party in this House vote against it? Why would a party say to New Zealand farmers, to New Zealand businesses, and to New Zealand workers that it would stamp out their opportunities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00227c54541462274d37b09416861940013a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c54541462274d37b09416861940013a\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very brief call, but it is appropriate for me, as chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and as one who sat through the select committee process on the New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill\u2014and I know that the Leader of the House would want me to do this\u2014to fulsomely praise and thank the officials at this stage, because the committee received some very comprehensive advice. I point out that we have had a very good working select committee, and I acknowledge particularly Mr Tim Groser for his excellent assistance. I also respect absolutely and acknowledge the diversity of views that was represented both in the submissions and by members of the committee. I acknowledge the very fine contribution of Keith Locke, albeit we agree to differ on this issue. However, his contribution was important. I also acknowledge Peter Brown, and I do that in this democratic Parliament tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe challenge on those of us who are supporting this agreement, which is the will of the overwhelming majority of the House, is to do everything we can and to work to make sure that some of the concerns and fears that have been expressed do not come to pass. In terms of the glass being half full or the glass being half empty, the point of view that the glass is half full offers huge potential for this agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will close with a quote from our Prime Minister, who stated: \u201CThe agreement sets a high standard. It is a model for how two trading partners, disparate in size but complementary in the products and services they offer, can take a trading relationship to a new level.\u201D Hopefully, it will be a win-win situation for both countries. That is our intent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EHaving said that, let me acknowledge all members of the select committee for the excellent contribution they made in terms of the report back. We look forward to the third reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2d226cf5b714b1bb5b11e94333f3839\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2d226cf5b714b1bb5b11e94333f3839\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E A number of things have concerned me, starting with the recent comments by Peter Brown from the New Zealand First Party. He said the Singapore free-trade agreement had significantly benefited the people of Singapore, and then proceeded to give absolutely no example to prove his point. I think that was outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ESecond, I would also like to address the issues that seem to be disturbing New Zealand First and other parties in this House, including the M\u0101ori Party, who think that China\u2019s lower-wage economy than ours will in some way cause huge damage in our economy. The protectionists in this Parliament say that because the Chinese make television sets, toys, and clothes more cheaply than we can, our people will lose their jobs unless we protect our domestic production with taxes on Chinese products. Well, there are countries that do that sort of thing. The international textile trade, for example, is subject to very, very complex trade regulations right across the world. If members think about it, they will realise agriculture is considerably protected in many countries\u2014for example, Japan and the USA\u2014and that is a direct problem for the people in my electorate who produce agricultural products and want to export them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First, the Green Party, and the M\u0101ori Party say we should stem the flow of goods into New Zealand, particularly the cheap ones. Well, I would like to refer them to an economist called Ricardo, who many years ago said the best thing a country could do was to get rid of trade barriers. Even if the country could not produce something more efficiently than something produced in another country, he said the objective was to remove the barriers to trade because doing that would help both countries. For example, China may be far more efficient than New Zealand at producing wide-screen television sets or rice, but rather less proficient than New Zealand at producing dairy products. China and New Zealand must stick to producing what each country does best; New Zealand must do that and China must do that. If there are no trade barriers between our two countries, then we have both got to be better off and the communities in our country must be better off. We need to address this issue, because we must stop our people leaving New Zealand in droves. We must give them higher standards of living here, and this trade agreement will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis trade agreement will not destroy our jobs. It is not possible for this country to stop exporting, and to import everything from abroad, because we would have nothing to pay for the imports with. If one does not export one cannot import, because one has no money to buy the imports with. So it seems to me that New Zealand must export to the global markets, and it must pay for imports from wherever those products are cheapest. As I said a couple of days ago, in response to M\u0101ori Party concerns, free trade is fair trade. The transaction does not have to happen if the two parties do not want it. It is quite clear that when two people discuss engaging in a transaction, one party can say yes and the other party can say no. The transaction does not have to go ahead. People engage in a transaction because each party will be better off by doing so. Each party wants to engage in the transaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis bill is the most significant legislation that has been put forward in the life of this Parliament. It will provide benefits to our communities long past the life of every person in this parliamentary complex. I support this bill, and the National Party supports it wholeheartedly. Again, I would just thank the officials involved in putting the detail of the agreement in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a2ea4945e3474d972763b49c4f1ce7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a2ea4945e3474d972763b49c4f1ce7\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E This bill puts New Zealand first; that is what it sets out to do. I was dismayed to hear Mr Brown saying that he did not consider it to be a good bill, that he thought all sorts of fish-hooks were being revealed, and that it was basically a bad thing for us to be engaged in. I am sorry that some parties feel that way, and I am dismayed that they see things in that way. I appreciate that their concern is genuine and sincere, but in my view it is misplaced. The vulnerability that they perceive we have is without foundation, but it is emotionally understandable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe reality is that New Zealand is already a pretty wide open market for goods from China, but China has not been open to us. The great wall was secure in the form of tariffs, but the free-trade agreement opens up that wall to our trades, our businesses, our entrepreneurs, our enterprises, and our marketing and selling skills\u2014and New Zealand has those skills in considerable quantity. Speaking from experience, I say that what exporters need is certainty in terms of the opportunities before them\u2014not deal by deal, and not one opportunity at a time, but certainty in terms of country to country relationships. For decades our traders have been excelling in the work they do. What an opportunity they now have. As I said, I am saddened by the lack of vision in the speech by Mr Brown. China is a very substantial producer and exporter of food, and, as has already been demonstrated in previous speeches, the continuing economic improvement and well-being of the people of China will create an ever-increasing demand for our products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EAnother frequent concern expressed in relation to the free-trade agreement with China, which I find ironic, is that it could result in a single market taking all our products, so we will become dependent on a single market. That is not actually how trade works. The popularity of our products, and the demand for our products in China, will result in increased demand from other markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELet us reflect back. We used to be single market - oriented. We used to send all our products to dear mother England, and that was the basic market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e5d649c0db740819ef5747a93d4bb53\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: And Scotland!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2ca28d9900440b8973c4349241af46c\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Dr Cullen. I well remember New Zealand products being consumed at our table, but then the UK joined the Common Market. I remember being in Hokianga\u2014and this point relates particularly to the opportunity for free trade\u2014and having a discussion with a neighbour who said we were finished as a country. The reality was that this point was just the beginning of New Zealand embarking on open trade rather than being single market - oriented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EAs a country we have had a celebrated period of remarkable good fortune. This has not come about through Government policy but through good fortune in respect of overseas prices for our products. But we are now in a recession. How quickly things have changed in the last 6 months. We need our exporters to be more dynamic than ever. This bill will allow them that opportunity. We need the money, we need to create wealth, and this free-trade bill will enable us to increase our opportunities to do that. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5f98540b08547c693f380c3fa82ac0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5f98540b08547c693f380c3fa82ac0a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call during this part of the debate, and to follow my colleagues and confirm, categorically\u2014obviously\u2014that National supports the New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill, and why would we not? It is the only way our country will move forward. It is the only way we will grow our economy. It is the only way we will trade our way in the world. We live in a global economy, and a global economy means free trade. Free trade, as my colleague said, is also fair trade, because both parties find their areas of comparative advantage in any event, and that is one of the things that this free-trade agreement is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis afternoon I raised the issue of M\u0101ori business. Clearly, this free-trade agreement is a landmark event for the growing M\u0101ori economy. That economy, as we have seen, has developed rather slowly over the two previous decades, but it is now reaching its zenith. Given the many assets that have been returned to M\u0101ori in Treaty of Waitangi settlements\u2014fish, land, and areas in terms of the farming enterprises being developed\u2014it is critical, since a lot of M\u0101ori businesses are export focused, that we are able to trade with an economy that is becoming the biggest economy in the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis afternoon I put out a quote from Hui Taumata 2005. They saw that the best way for M\u0101ori development to improve domestically and internationally is through economic growth through trade with the rest of the world. My colleague Dr Mapp said that our future is with trade. Well, if our past has been with trade, which it has been\u2014the ability to trade with the world\u2014our future most definitely is. It is a disappointment to me that members of the M\u0101ori Party should see no overall benefit in this free-trade agreement, particularly when they are so focused on Treaty settlements and on the return of assets to M\u0101ori. As I said, those assets are in forestry, fisheries, and land assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMy question to M\u0101ori Party members\u2014and I hope they take a call this evening\u2014would be: \u201CWhat are we going to do once all those assets are returned?\u201D Will we sit on them in our little valleys and do nothing? We will trade with ourselves and do business with ourselves? Where would that get us? It is a nonsense\u2014an absolute nonsense. If we think about the other side of the equation, about jobs for our people, we see that this agreement is a guarantee of jobs for our people. It gives us the ability to trade, to create wealth with our assets, to take care of iwi and ordinary individuals, and to make sure that their future is guaranteed. It is not guaranteed by sitting in one\u2019s valley with one\u2019s assets and not doing anything with them. Do we achieve anything by sitting on our hands? No; I cannot figure that one out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I said, I would be interested to hear from members of the M\u0101ori Party about that. Perhaps Te Ururoa Flavell might take a call this evening, help me with my predicament, and tell me why the M\u0101ori he seems to represent would not see this free-trade agreement as a historic agreement that will be a landmark in M\u0101ori development. I am very proud to be part of the National Party, which supports the Government in what it has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e671492e30640119f10abb9bcdba60e\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s not get too carried away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229609d41acb96419fbc425498c69419dc\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe my colleague Dr Wayne Mapp gave the Government more praise than he should have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOur team was led by my colleague Tim Groser, who set out admirably exactly why this free-trade agreement is so important to New Zealand. I endorse everything he said. He ought to know; he has worked in this area for\u2014what; 30 or 40 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d3947a7b42247479e934b866f6f4c26\u0022\u003ETim Groser\u003C/span\u003E: Too long!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c16a666601410b89524bc5be71b320\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: It is never too long. He has had a full career in this area, and he, more than anybody in this Chamber, this House, this Parliament, knows just how important this free-trade agreement with China is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cfcf5a957574a4ab7375fc439b3e58a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000620\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 215 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c5236910840a436b97ebc74baeef5e1b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220227dea473df420abff527302617c4b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000621\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Tariff Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 4), the Radiocommunications Amendment Bill (No 5), the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Electricity Amendment Bill (No 3), pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 214.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000622\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000623\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ccc683a848fc44ef9c11dbed148a8058\u0022\u003ETaxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfc826e183534cf194f693f5e4ee6021\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002250e20b611a8d41918fb2f6fff6550e67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250e20b611a8d41918fb2f6fff6550e67\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I shall move that the bill be referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee for consideration. This bill introduces a number of important business tax reforms that are variously aimed at helping New Zealand businesses compete internationally and at reducing business tax compliance costs. They complement each other and also other recently enacted reforms, such as the reduction of the company tax rate from 33 percent to 30 percent and the introduction of the new research and development tax credit, which was designed to encourage companies to invest more in research and development. The focus of other reforms in the bill is on updating tax law to align it with today\u2019s commercial environment, ensuring the law works effectively and as it was intended to work, protecting the revenue base, and further strengthening New Zealand\u2019s culture of charitable giving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe central feature of the bill is the proposed reform of New Zealand\u2019s international tax rules to help New Zealand-based companies compete more effectively overseas. In my view this is one of the most important tax reforms to come before this House, because what is being proposed is a complete change of direction in the way we tax the offshore income of our controlled foreign companies\u2014by which is meant foreign companies that are controlled by New Zealand residents. At present we tax all the offshore income of these companies, with the exception of income from operations in the so-called grey list of eight countries that our law at present singles out as having tax systems comparable to our own. In that respect we are completely out of step with what happens in much of the rest of the world. Many other countries, including our main trading partners, distinguish between passive income\u2014such as that from interest, dividends, rent, and royalties\u2014and active income, such as income from manufacturing, and exempt the latter from tax. Therefore, the fact that our controlled foreign companies are taxed in New Zealand on their active income puts them at a competitive disadvantage internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe cornerstone of the proposed reform of our international tax rules is to exempt from domestic income tax the active income of controlled foreign companies of New Zealand resident businesses. That is intended to encourage businesses with international operations to remain in New Zealand, as well as to enable them to compete effectively in foreign markets. The passive income of these companies will still be taxed as it is earned, although there will be some exceptions to the rule. For example, it will not apply to passive income for controlled foreign companies in Australia, which is usually the first port of call for our smaller businesses that are seeking to expand overseas. There will also be an exemption for passive income that is less than 5 percent of a company\u2019s total income. Other important features of the reform include exemption from tax of most foreign dividends paid to companies, as well as measures to protect our revenue base when the active incoming exemption comes into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces further measures aimed at reducing tax compliance costs for small and medium-size businesses, of which there are many in this country. Lacking the resources of larger companies, smaller businesses tend to bear a disproportionate tax compliant cost burden. Reducing tax-related compliance costs is an incremental process consisting of many small steps. There is no single solution to the problem, short of abolishing tax altogether. A measure that will help one small business may not help another, since businesses vary significantly in their needs, operating styles, and problems. Compliance cost reduction measures introduced in recent years have included, for example, the alignment of payment dates for provisional tax and GST. That change was designed for small businesses that prefer to make smaller and more frequent payments of provisional tax to help them with their budgeting. Likewise, some of the fringe benefit tax rules were changed with smaller businesses in mind\u2014for example, the minor benefits threshold under which the tax is not payable was raised, and a tax exemption for business tools was introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe changes proposed in this bill raise several other tax thresholds. They include, for example, the PAYE threshold above which employers must file and pay deductions from employees\u2019 salaries twice a month. That threshold is being raised from $100,000 to $250,000, a change that will allow a greater number of small employers to pay their deductions to the Inland Revenue Department once a month instead of in accordance with the current procedure, thus saving them both time and money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also clarifies the law to ensure that employer payments for employee relocation and overtime meal allowances are exempt from income tax and fringe benefit tax if certain criteria are met. These changes, which were announced last year, simplify the law and remove longstanding uncertainty about the tax treatment of these payments, which will save time and money for everyone involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also modernises the tax rules relating to the life insurance business, which date back to 1990. Since then, products and business practices have changed significantly, with the result that the tax rules are out of date in several areas. For example, many term insurance profits are under-taxed today, with profitable business often leading to tax losses. The reason is that term insurance was a very small part of the business in the late 1980s, so it was not a big consideration in developing the rules at that time. Today, term insurance is a major part of the business, and by being under-taxed it enjoys a considerable subsidy under the present tax rules. A further anomaly in the rules is that people who save through life insurance products face a heavier tax burden than do savers who invest directly or through managed funds that become portfolio investment entities. Under the proposed reform, the term life insurance business will be taxed on actual profits, as other businesses are taxed, and many of the tax benefits of the new portfolio investment entity rules will be extended to all savers in life products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe petroleum mining tax rules are also being updated to remove potential disincentives to further investment in oil and gas exploration and development in New Zealand. At the same time, the bill introduces measures to ensure that New Zealand receives its proper share of the benefits from our growing petroleum mining industry. To safeguard New Zealand\u2019s taxing rights on its own petroleum resources, the changes will allow expenditure on petroleum mining operations undertaken through a foreign branch to be offset only against income from petroleum mining operations outside New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs a further measure to protect the revenue base, the bill introduces a number of changes to strengthen the definitions of associated persons in income tax law. The definitions are used primarily to counter tax practices that could undermine the intent of our tax laws because of the closeness of the relationships of the people or entities involved, whether they are relatives, trusts, partnerships, or companies. The definition relating to land sales is in particular need of strengthening to prevent land dealers, developers, and builders from circumventing the land sale tax rules by operating through associated persons. It is important to stress that the law that gains on land sold by dealers and others in the business are taxed if the land is sold within 10 years of acquisition is not new. That provision was stated in law as long ago as 1973\u201435 years ago\u2014when Parliament enacted the current land sale tax rules. This bill closes the gaps in the definitions of associated persons that allow that tax obligation to be sidestepped. The bill also makes the other definitions of associated persons more robust. For example, it will no longer be possible to use certain trust structures to circumvent the tax rules. Similarly, it will not be possible for companies and shareholders to avoid being associated by fragmenting shareholdings amongst closely related people and entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces further measures to strengthen the climate of charitable giving in New Zealand. These build upon related tax changes that came into force this year, removing the caps on the dollar amounts of charitable donations eligible for tax relief. The bill introduces a voluntary payroll-giving system that will operate through the PAYE tax system. People whose employers adopt payroll-giving will be able to donate regularly to charitable and philanthropic causes of their choice through work-based payroll deductions. They will receive the tax benefit of their donations each pay day without having to present donation receipts. The voluntary scheme will be open to employers who file their employer monthly schedules with the Inland Revenue Department electronically. It is a fact that growing numbers of employers see social responsibility and good corporate citizenship as an important part of their business, and these measures are designed to strengthen them in that work and to encourage them and their employees in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOn a similar theme, the bill also clarifies the law relating to the tax treatment of honoraria for voluntary work and the reimbursement of volunteers\u2019 expenses. That will make life much easier for both volunteers and charitable organisations, which often incur unnecessary compliance costs in trying to understand their tax obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese are but brief descriptions of the main reforms proposed in this omnibus tax bill. Time simply does not permit a more detailed description of every measure, so I refer members to the separate, slim, 160-page commentary on the bill, which describes the changes in more detail and has been distributed to members already. On that note, I am happy to commend the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00223fbfb5020e884af68ef046d2cdce84c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fbfb5020e884af68ef046d2cdce84c2\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In\u2014[Interruption] What was that comment? I note the arrogance of Dr Cullen, who is very happy to let people know that he was a Commonwealth scholar and did a PhD. He should acknowledge that some other people in this House were also Commonwealth scholars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn introducing the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill to the House just now, the Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne, commendably emphasised the positive aspects of this bill, but he brushed over the aspects that impose very real extra compliance costs on New Zealand businesses. Despite that, National will support this legislation going to the select committee. We support it because there are a number of important moves in it that we see as being very positive. For example, we support the move to the introduction of an active income exemption in respect of the income tax treatment of controlled foreign companies or corporations. We support the introduction of tax deductibility for regular payroll donations to charity. It makes good sense. We support the increases to tax thresholds, such as the provision for once-monthly payments of PAYE instead of twice-monthly for businesses whose annual PAYE deductions are under $250,000, rather than $100,000. We support those measures because they make good sense, just like the increase in the threshold for the filing of GST returns on a 6-monthly basis does. For that process to be available in the future to businesses with an annual turnover of less than half a million dollars, rather than a quarter of a million dollars, makes good sense because it will reduce compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThose three measures are positive moves, but it is so typical of this Labour Government that on the one hand it gives but, because it cannot bring itself to let go of any tax revenue, on the other hand it must take away. It just cannot help itself. Let me give members an example of what I mean. The Minister mentioned the active income exemption as one of the most important aspects of this legislation. That is a good move. We support it because it makes good sense and it is consistent with the way that most countries treat their controlled foreign companies. But what of the extra compliance costs for business associated with the shrinking of the grey list from eight countries down to one? I am not saying that that should not be done, but we should think about the compliance cost implications. What about the competitive disadvantage we face from repealing the conduit rules? Now, other countries that have an active income exemption still have rules like the conduit rules. Does that place us at a competitive disadvantage? What about the extra compliance costs associated with the introduction of the interest allocation rules? We know why the Government is moving to introduce those interest allocation rules, but what about the compliance costs? It is no good for the Minister to say, on the one hand, that all these measures reduce compliance costs\u2014for some of the measures do\u2014when, on the other hand, a whole range of other measures actually significantly increase compliance costs for businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe point I am making is that members will need to listen carefully to argument at the select committee to make sure that these issues are very carefully considered, because they have significant ramifications for the competitiveness of our foreign-owned corporations and for the control of our foreign-owned corporations. I emphasise that it is not a clear-cut situation where all of this is simply reducing compliance costs. There are measures there that are increasing compliance costs and challenging our competitive position, and we need to listen to what the arguments are at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf the interest allocation rules are complex\u2014and they are\u2014I invite members to have a look at the taxation of life insurance businesses that this legislation changes. One of the positive measures\u2014and there are positive measures here as well, as I have said before\u2014is the extending of the benefits of the portfolio investment entity rules to all savers in life products. That is a positive move. On the one hand we are giving this positive move but, on the other hand, the Government seeks to take away, because the increased tax imposition on underwriting of risk business, for example, will probably see premiums go up. People will benefit on the one hand from the portfolio investment entity rules being extended but, on the other hand, they will face higher costs because insurance premiums will probably go up. The legislation will be complex. There will be compliance issues here. If one looks at the way shareholder base income provisions and the policyholder base income provisions are defined in the legislation, and look at the way insurance businesses will necessarily require actuarial apportionment of income between those two accounts, one will see that there will be significant changes to their accounting and tax systems at a time when insurers are already dealing with portfolio investment entities and KiwiSaver legislation, as well as the changes to the financial reporting standards internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe have a complex set of provisions around the income tax treatment for life insurance businesses. If anyone suggests that it will not be complex, I say they should just take a look at the provisions. They should take a look at the allocation of income between those two base accounts\u2014the shareholder base income account and the policyholder base income account\u2014and look at the way money will have to be apportioned between the two actuarially. That will impose compliance costs, and, again, the select committee will need to listen carefully as to how serious these increased compliance costs will be. I notice Michael Cullen, the Minister of Finance, laughs as if compliance costs are all a joke. I say to the Minister that these compliance costs are real. Business are making it very clear that these costs are real. He risks a very important aspect of New Zealand business activity if he thinks all of this is just a joke. [Interruption] It is not a joke. Compliance cost is real. Little Darren Hughes next to the Minister would not have a clue, because he has never had a real job in his life, and would not have a clue what some of this stuff actually does. We need to listen carefully at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf some of these complex provisions are not enough to fry one\u2019s brain, one should have a look at the new base protection provisions around the \u201Cassociated persons\u201D provision. Apparently the Government is concerned about the land sale tax rules for land dealers, developers, and builders caught by the old 10-year rule, and I suppose the Government is concerned that where one has associated persons it is possible to get soft deals minimising the tax liability that they should face. We have no problems with these issues being addressed, but we must make sure that the benefits we get out of them are not less than the additional costs that we impose over these businesses. These associated person provisions are complex. If any member does not think they are, he or she should have a look at how they will work and explain to the House how the tripartite tax associated person provision works\u2014it is complex. We will need to look at it very, very carefully at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf that is not enough, the new tax provisions for the emissions trading units will be interesting. The Government does not have this legislation through the House yet, but this bill contains the new tax provisions for those emissions trading units. Again, forestry interests will face some complex issues. For some reason or another some of the forestry interests will be under the provisions of the Income Tax Act 2004\u2014not the current Income Tax Act 2007. I would not mind if one of the Government members would explain why we still have to amend the Income Tax Act 1994, the Income Tax Act 2004, as well as the Income Tax Act 2007. I thought we had rewritten all the income tax Acts and brought all the provisions together into the 2007 Act. But, no, certainly the forestry interests under the emissions trading provisions in this legislation will be operating under the Income Tax Act 2004. That is a complexity, and I would like someone to explain why on earth that is necessary. One of the positive things, though, is that at least the emissions trading units will be zero-rated for GST purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo we can see that these are very complex issues. There is a balance of positive moves but there are other measures that will impose significantly increased compliance costs. The select committee is in for a lot of work on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002247159d82a89847f4a52b6aa17e2799b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247159d82a89847f4a52b6aa17e2799b6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E One would hate to hear the member when he is opposing a bill if that was a speech in support of one. The member certainly managed to praise with faint damns this particular measure, and he managed in the course of that to miss the entire main thrust of the legislation while focusing on some minor issues within it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b633b1b9f2439c8cd1315ee24e5b27\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Minor issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286f1127be8e9447abb78b739bcb5f2c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Minor issues indeed\u2014minor issues indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELet me come to the most important part of this Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill. It follows on very nicely from the previous legislation we have been discussing. What this important part on the active/passive distinction is about is whether this country will have an outward-looking taxation system or an inward-looking one. Of course, what the member did not tell us was that this part of the legislation replaces the failed legislation that he helped put in place in 1991-92, which did not have any such exemption for active income. There will, of course, be some who will argue that what this will do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d85f9b4901849e986eeda579061e2cf\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: But it did have a good grey list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b929c7561e574b4f981b38da35b79769\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CLocky\u201D has had his speech. I ask him to strap the budgie-smugglers down and listen for the next few minutes. What some people will argue about this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7c986e0a5f42ce9cac8ab39525ae38\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What an arrogant Minister!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5111d2e18b4f4cad5cb58a4ac46493\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: What is arrogant is continuing to interject when somebody else is speaking. It is high time the member learnt some manners instead of just talking in a poncy fashion. There is a difference between those two things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat some people will argue about this bill is that it will encourage people to move manufacturing capacity offshore. The reality is\u2014[Interruption] I knew the Greens would; they could not help themselves. As soon as the word \u201Cinternational\u201D appeared in the bill we knew we would be in trouble in terms of the Greens\u2019 vote on this bill. As soon as we had the term \u201Ccontrolled foreign company\u201D they probably thought that it meant an overseas multinational. It means a New Zealand company that controls foreign companies offshore. The fact is that some manufacturing capacity will move offshore to lower-cost countries. The real issue is, firstly, whether we want New Zealand companies to internationalise or whether we believe we can make our living just by taking in each other\u2019s washing for the foreseeable future. The obvious fact is that New Zealand companies will have to bulk up and internationalise to succeed, or we cannot increase our productivity levels within this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that if companies succeed in either having some manufacturing capacity offshore or investment offshore or having very substantial parts of their business dependent upon exporting so that the majority of their income comes from offshore activity, then our current taxation system, with its lack of an active exemption, encourages those companies to move all capacity offshore, including head office, including design, and including back-office functions. That is the choice that developed economies\u2014particularly, small developed economies such as New Zealand\u2014face. Are we to play a long defensive game, trying to keep what little we have, instead of trying to expand and develop, to develop those international connections, and to retain the highest-quality, highest-paying, highest-value parts of the production system within New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIf we opt for the \u201Clittle New Zealand\u201D policy we will, in the end, defeat ourselves. We will, in the end, have a declining economy, not an expanding economy. If we opt for an outward-looking approach, which requires an active exemption, then there is a very real prospect that we will be more capable of succeeding economically than we have done over the last 40 or 50 years. That is the choice that a small, isolated economy in the south-west of the Pacific faces. We cannot succeed by trying to mimic the economic patterns of behaviour of the low-income, mass production countries in Asia. If we think that that is the route to success, then we have really got things profoundly wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhen New Zealand introduced, under the previous National Government, the current tax rules taxing New Zealand companies on their worldwide income, it was theoretical perfection. To take Dr Lockwood Smith\u2019s point, it has lower compliance costs, because not having an active/passive distinction by itself, obviously, has lower compliance costs. But the reality is that the lower compliance cost is bought at the expense, in the end, of poorer economic performance. Once we have an active/passive distinction of any form, then, first of all, that in itself increases compliance costs. But, secondly, to buttress New Zealand\u2019s tax base so as to not lose all that taxable income\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d65e5c7f8164195aa77b661b852d209\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014you can\u2019t afford to let it go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228064a1517ec3469f9a04efaa28959b2f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014precisely! If we want all our taxable income to move offshore so that there is no tax within New Zealand, then we do not need buttressing rules around it. Those buttressing rules create compliance costs. The member cannot have it both ways\u2014or maybe he can; I do not know. But he needs to understand that the point about doing this is that it creates a risk. It creates the risk that we lose the tax base offshore, and that also will not be helpful for New Zealand. That cannot help New Zealand\u2019s future in terms of its need for money for investment in infrastructure, skills, and so on and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThat is the most important part of this bill. It is by sheer coincidence that that part of this bill comes in on the same day as the Committee stage of the New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Bill. But the two bills, in fact, have a great deal of interrelationship in terms of the underlying philosophy about having an outward-looking, growing New Zealand economy, as opposed to an inward-looking, gradually retreating, and declining New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe second main part of this bill is the insurance changes. The member should support those, because, at the end of the day, the changes here merely align the rules around the taxation of insurance with those of general companies and other financial sector parts of the economy. Yes, we know that Sovereign objects to this, and we know that a former member of the National Party has been lobbying on behalf of Sovereign. But, in fact, there has been a great deal of consultation with the insurance industry as a whole, and the bulk of the insurance industry is actually reasonably happy with this\u2014nobody is ever happy unless we simply cut their tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAny change will always have some degree of opposition to it, but there are long transitional provisions within this bill that protect. This particular part of the legislation is not revenue-positive for quite a large number of years to come; in fact, it is actually revenue-negative for some considerable number of years to come. But it is an important change, because it leads to a fairer taxation system around insurance and it removes the bias against life insurance in favour of term insurance, which the current taxation system provides. The taxation system should be neutral between those two options. It should not be determining a choice between those two options. The choice should be based purely upon people\u2019s own economic and social needs in respect of term insurance versus life insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMuch of the rest of this bill consists of a vast range of technical changes. For those who want to get really excited, there are retrospective provisions that go back to 1986, and, to get even more excited, those provisions relate to the Parliamentary Service. In other words, the Inland Revenue Department has caught up with a problem in the law that has remained unamended for 22 years and that should have been amended, and now it is deemed to apply from, I think, 1 April 1986, or from whenever the Parliamentary Service came into operation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe other main feature of the bill is significant reductions in compliance costs in terms of thresholds for a whole range of aspects of the tax system as they apply to small to medium sized enterprises. One could always argue that those reductions should go further. Indeed, we looked at other options that had more significant revenue costs attached to them, but these do have quite significant revenue costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis is not a bill that increases the Government\u2019s tax revenue, at all. It reduces the Government\u2019s tax revenue both in the short term and in the long term. A reduction in active exemption obviously reduces the Government\u2019s tax revenue. The compliance cost changes around thresholds reduces the Government\u2019s tax revenue. The life insurance changes reduce the Government\u2019s tax revenue over the next few years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis is well-thought-out legislation. It is large, and it is complex. The select committee will need to spend a lot of time on this legislation, and I am sure it will find reasons for changing some of its details. But let us not pretend that a tax system should not have integrity that protects the tax base of New Zealand but simply resigns all tax to offshore jurisdictions\u2014tax rationality does not say that; that is just pure right-wing ideology. That is not a rational tax system; that is a very silly tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a045fb247f490286e35cf5a7146f43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a045fb247f490286e35cf5a7146f43\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I do not think I can afford to fall back on the new MP excuse after 2\u00BD years here. Nevertheless, I have to admit to finding it rather daunting to be given a 600-page document that includes explanatory information containing issues of vast complexity in which I have no professional background, and then to be expected to make a serious contribution on it. However, there are one or two things in the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u2014that National members support being referred to the select committee for a first reading\u2014that do some sensible things, and merit some comment. I will focus on those issues, which are very much related to the challenge of globalisation that is facing New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that the bill is a multi-faceted bill, and that it simplifies a number of tax thresholds. It helps the voluntary sector in terms of the mechanisms used to make contributions to charities. That is a strong position of the National Party; we were not surprised when it was taken over by the Government, but it is the right direction from our point of view. I wish to focus, in a few brief comments, on one or two of the moves the bill makes in terms of coming to terms with the integration of the New Zealand economy, from a tax perspective, into the global economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI recognise that some of the terminology is formidable. Until 2\u00BD years ago I thought CFCs were a particularly potent form of greenhouse gas; I now understand that this acronym refers to controlled foreign companies. I have to admit that one day while driving in Auckland and listening to talkback, I heard the announcer say: \u201CAfter the break we\u2019re coming back to a huge argument that\u2019s erupted over the rules for pies.\u201D I thought I might have to rethink my thinking on talkback radio, because I had not realised that listeners would be interested in portfolio investment entities. Unfortunately, my pleasure was very short-lived when I found they were actually objecting to the fact that the winner of the New Zealand 2007 pie contest had produced a vegetarian pie, which in the opinion of many of the listeners was something akin to the end of civilisation as we know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae2b9a99f58b40669f628b6cd6938683\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: It was from Hawke\u2019s Bay, that pie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7b07855c7646b3a8b91d7b1dd06127\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I am well aware of that, and I am sure it was an excellent pie, but I have to tell the member the decision was deeply controversial in Auckland, however popular it was in the bay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe challenge facing New Zealand to adjust its thinking and its policy structures to globalisation is truly formidable. I am sure that this bill takes us in a certain direction, I am sure that it is a work in progress, and I am certain that further pieces of legislation will be required, as we all adjust our ways of thinking, our behaviour, and our legislation to the fact that we no longer live in a closed economy. I remember a speech that Bill Clinton made in his first presidency\u2014a brilliant Clinton speech\u2014about how even in his lifetime he had gone from seeing a local economy in Arkansas to seeing the shops and services that he had grown up with start to trade more and more with other American states, and then move into an international economy. So the most sophisticated country in the world, the United States, has gone through this process; we are going through this process. In that respect, I agree with the comments that Dr Cullen has made\u2014that there is a close linkage between this bill that we are considering for the first time and the very extensive discussion we have just had on the China free-trade area. There is a close relationship\u2014and a need to have some coherence in our country\u2014between the trade and the investment sides of the equation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have just spent a fair bit of time in this House on the trade side, so let me reflect on the challenge facing us on the investment side. I first became aware, in a personal sense, of how poorly New Zealand performs on the investment side\u2014I am talking about outward investment here\u2014when I read a monograph written by none other than Alan Bollard, actually, when he was with the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research. He chronicled the history of New Zealand attempts to invest successfully outside New Zealand. It does not make pretty reading. I know there are some highly commendable exceptions to that, so far be it from me or any member to criticise the pioneers who got out there and, frankly, made efforts that did not always quite succeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBut the fundamental point is this: New Zealand is a poor investor overseas. That is a fundamental problem facing New Zealand. Although I suspect that the key to it lies within the corporate culture of this country and not the Government, it nevertheless is incumbent upon the Government to make sure that the policy framework we have in place does not get in the way of successful investment. I think, in that respect, it is very clear that some aspects of our external tax regime have done precisely that\u2014put in place perverse incentives, sometimes in the name of what sounds like good policy, such as tax neutrality. But at the end of the day they simply do not aid corporate New Zealand in the task of coming to grips with its challenge to integrate its own operations, not just in terms of the trading of physical goods and physical services but also in terms of its own investment operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn case any members are thinking that this is some minor technical point I am making, let me just throw some numbers around. It is a bit of an exaggeration, but we can say that New Zealand does not have a trade problem in the sense of the current account deficit; New Zealand actually has an investment problem. I think that is overstating it, for the very reasons we have just debated in the context of the China free-trade agreement. Actually, New Zealand is not performing in line with other small, developed countries, on the trade side, and there is an enormous amount we must do. Nevertheless, the point that I think the metaphor makes\u2014which I have heard in a number of contexts; it is not mine\u2014has an essential truth in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIf we analyse our current account deficit, we can see that the trade account is not in too bad a shape, but it is completely overwhelmed by a massive deficit in investment income. We measure the stock of accumulated foreign investment in our country vis-\u00E0-vis the stock of investment of New Zealand - controlled foreign companies\u2014and I agree with Dr Cullen that the term itself suggests some appalling multinational corporation from Detroit, but actually it may mean a Kiwi company from Hawke\u2019s Bay operating somewhere in Australia or Singapore, and these are companies we all very much wish to support\u2014through a measure called the \u201CIIP\u201D, or the international investment position, which accumulates the stock of our investments in other countries vis-\u00E0-vis the stock of foreigners\u2019 investments in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have two fundamental problems. The first is the relative size of those two stocks of investment. Broadly speaking, from memory, we have something like $110 billion of assets overseas versus I think about $250 billion of assets in our country owned by foreigners, indicating an unwillingness by New Zealanders such as myself to live on a more straitened income than we might otherwise have done, so we have accessed foreigners\u2019 savings to meet our investment needs. But this has generated a stock of investment flow that is grossly imbalanced. Worse still, the average rate of return on the stock of New Zealand investments by our controlled foreign companies is immeasurably lower, on average, than the rate of return of foreigners\u2019 investments in our own country. If we add those two lethal elements together we have a major national problem on our hands, whereby, even though we continue to perform at least credibly on the trade front, we are bleeding on the investment account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo we have, if you like, this fundamental challenge facing New Zealand, which is to lift our game on foreign direct investment in other countries. It is vital that we do not just take a tax minimisation account on that, but that we look at it strategically. I refer to some of the changes that are suggested in terms of the treatment of active income. The Hon Peter Dunne indicated the way in which the definitions will apply. It is the reciprocal of passive investment. I think there are some interesting starts, and I am sure that in the process of this bill being taken to the select committee we will have a lot of evidence that will need to be sifted through very carefully indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002286ca8c649ef44220ac1bd9bd56489e3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286ca8c649ef44220ac1bd9bd56489e3c\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Although there are some aspects of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill with which Green Party members have no problem, including those dealing with the voluntary sector\u2014at least as far as I can identify those aspects at this stage\u2014we are horrified by proposed changes affecting the offshore taxation regime for New Zealand companies. We will oppose these moves and vote against the bill every step of the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn exempting from tax active income earned offshore by a company where a New Zealand resident has the controlling interest, this bill is a charter for exporting jobs and closing down our manufacturing sector. The Government is acting as if the shape of the future is one in which we are nothing more than a head office and design centre for enterprises likely to be based mainly in Asia, but based in other parts of the world as well. It is insanity that at a time when the impacts of climate change, peak oil, and an incipient global recession are beginning to kick in, our Parliament should be considering legislation that provides serious tax incentives to companies to take their production offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI thought it was bad enough when I heard stories in years gone by such as, for example, that of the Swazi Apparel clothing company in Levin, which was told by the Ministry of Economic Development officials that it would be best advised to shift its operations to China. It did not matter that this would mean the loss of around 90 jobs, with the resulting impact on the local economy, not to mention the workers involved. I thought it was even worse when some members of the Labour Government tried to tell us that Buy Kiwi Made should be not only about companies that make things in this country, but also about businesses like Icebreaker, which had made the decision to take its production offshore. But the bill in front of us tonight really takes the cake. It seems to be driven by a belief that we should actually incentivise people to close down their operations here, and that there is no future for manufacturing in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhat a disaster. What a disaster after all the money, work, and commitment that have gone into the Buy Kiwi Made programme on the part of manufacturers, Business New Zealand, retailers, unions, and the Ministry of Economic Development. What a disaster after all the cross-sectoral goodwill and work that went into the long-running Manufacturing Plus project. Why on earth does Labour want to motivate manufacturers to self-destruct in this way? Was the manufacturing advisory group that came out of Manufacturing Plus happy with these new tax proposals\u2014that is, if it still exists? The justification given is, in part, based upon fostering so-called economic transformation. Transformation to what? Being a colony of Australia, South-east Asia, and China, perhaps? Having an economy totally dependent on foreign imports, the price of which will keep going up as the price of freight increases exponentially alongside the price of fuel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ETreasury argues that the current rules create an incentive for companies to move completely offshore\u2014head office and all, as Dr Cullen was saying earlier\u2014and that the point of the new rules will be to allow head offices to stay here while the manufacturing part of the business goes elsewhere. Reducing the tax costs for firms looking to expand offshore will, it appears to argue, make us more competitive and more compatible with the globalised market\u2014above all, with Australia. Behind this argument sits the underlying assumption that we should not even bother manufacturing here, because we cannot compete. It would appear that it is time for us to internationalise and globalise our jobs and our businesses out of business, apart from a few head office staff in Auckland or Wellington. Treasury also argues that the new tax exemption will make New Zealand more attractive for foreign investment, and that the fact that headquarters will stay here will create work for headquarters-type people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EEven more bizarre is the fact that if the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill goes through, companies manufacturing in New Zealand will still be taxed, while those offshore will not. So our loyal local companies will in fact be at even more of a disadvantage comparatively\u2014as if the high dollar was not enough to contend with! The madness of all this takes me back to the early 1990s, a time many of us\u2014including some National MPs, I suspect\u2014might prefer to forget. That was a time when, for example, the then Minister of Finance, Ruth Richardson, took pride in hosting a conference in Auckland aimed at marketing what was left of our assets to overseas companies. That era also saw the final sell-off of rail by Jim Bolger, one of the biggest ever rip-offs of New Zealand taxpayers by a foreign company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI do not understand Dr Cullen. On the one hand he and his Government have done a great thing by buying back and reinvesting in rail, and biting the bullet on the cost, because Labour does appear to understand on one level that climate change and peak oil mean we must rebuild our national passenger and freight infrastructure. On the other hand\u2014and simultaneously\u2014he is presiding over the incongruous aberration before us tonight aimed, it seems, at undermining any desire of New Zealand manufacturers to keep making things here. For a member of a party that\u2014as Dr Cullen proudly told this House recently in response to one of my questions on employment issues\u2014is the party of workers, it is odd in the extreme that he does not appear to care a fig for the hundreds of thousands of jobs that may well disappear as a result of the tax incentives contained in this bill. Where does he think the jobs to replace those lost will come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI find it odd that once again I find myself giving Dr Cullen history lessons. Does he not remember what happened when his own Government stripped out our manufacturing base in the 1980s? Can he not remember the acres of empty factories and industrial zones, or what happened when tens of thousands of people in the cities and towns ended up jobless? Some people\u2014and, above all, tangata whenua and Pacific peoples\u2014are still reaping the consequences of those policies of the 1980s, in places like South Auckland, Northland, Tai R\u0101whiti, and the Bay of Plenty \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhat the Government is proposing will give Icebreaker a tax cut for making lovely outdoor wear in China, but not Earth Sea Sky for making lovely outdoor wear in Christchurch. Norsewear\u2014that formerly iconic brand\u2014will reap a financial benefit for having taken its jobs to Asia, while Swazi Apparel, staunchly staying local, will miss out. The bill will give tax cuts to large firms that send fish to China for filleting and packing, but not to small-time fishermen who process locally and who create environmental and social benefits by not carting fish back and forth across the planet. The bill will give Fisher and Paykel a tax cut for the whiteware it makes in Mexico, but not for the whiteware it makes in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ETo all those companies, business organisations, and trade unions that have been involved in Manufacturing Plus, the Buy New Zealand Made campaign, and Buy Kiwi Made, I call on them to join the Green Party\u2014and any other parties who oppose this madness\u2014to help persuade Labour to change its mind on this one. Globalisation does not have to be about giving up on our manufacturing sector. We simply cannot afford to lose our ability to make things here, either for local use or for export. Nor can we risk losing tens\u2014if not hundreds\u2014of thousands of jobs at a time of increasing global, economic, and environmental insecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of the bill that I feel constrained to address briefly tonight is that dealing with petroleum mining. The first aspect is that the bill prevents petroleum companies from deducting overseas expenses from their New Zealand income, and thus ensures that New Zealand will get the tax benefit of mining here, rather than having the profit hidden behind expenses incurred overseas. That is fine with the Greens. However, looking beyond this, the bill will also remove disincentives that may affect investment in oil and gas exploration and development in New Zealand, adding up to a huge tax cut over 4 years in the petroleum industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party really questions why we are giving major tax cuts to these companies at a time when even those who would not normally follow the oil markets can see the massive profits being made. The bill somewhat disingenuously describes these changes\u2014for example, allowing development costs to be amortised over the life of the mine, and repealing the current distinction between onshore and offshore development\u2014as being necessary to safeguard tax revenue. However, in reality what the changes mean is less, not more, tax income from petroleum mining. Secondly, through these measures the Government is manifestly encouraging more mine exploration and development, with apparently no regard for the environmental and climate change consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe parts of this huge bill that deal with manufacturing and the tax cuts for petroleum mining are sufficiently outrageous that, from our point of view, they totally negate the other beneficial changes that are being promoted. The Green Party will therefore do everything we can to oppose the bill and to warn people of the danger it poses to our economy, our workers, and our environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed23bfe36904d17abd03c6a10471711\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed23bfe36904d17abd03c6a10471711\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Dr Lockwood Smith said previously, National will be voting for this bill to head to the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014with some trepidation. But on the whole, it is a very good, positive move in the right direction, notwithstanding some of the interesting interpretations the Minister of Finance made of his lack of action over the last 9 years, trying to pretend they did not exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut one thing was missing from the speeches earlier of both the Minister of Revenue and the Minister of Finance that I fully expected to be part of this bill. There are about 130-odd pages of explanatory note and 450-odd pages of detail, but there is no summation of the fiscal numbers here. This goes from changes to charities, changes to the controlled foreign company rules, the active and passive income rules, the petroleum mining rules, etc., but putting all that aside for a moment, there are some huge implications here. The Minister of Finance particularly made note, and tried to convince us, that tax revenue would actually go down as a result of this bill. Perhaps it will; perhaps it will not. We would like to see the numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI have had a quick discussion with the Minister of Revenue\u2019s officials and I believe that those numbers will be forthcoming tomorrow. So that will be beneficial, particularly with such a wide-ranging bill because we will need to pick it apart as it goes through the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I understand from the various discussion papers that this bill is formed from that there have been individual summations for costings, etc., but it would have been good to hear that in the Minister\u2019s introductory speech. I look forward to hearing about that tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI look forward to this bill going to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and I am certainly looking forward to the expertise around the table from the officials. I have read parts of the bill quite a few times and I freely and openly admit that I still cannot work out parts of it, but I enjoyed the Minister\u2019s earlier speech and the stuff about the various changes to \u201Cterm insurance\u201D and \u201Clife insurance\u201D. I need to sit down and read some of those technical changes, and digest them over a nice Hawke\u2019s Bay red wine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere is a good point about this bill: it seems to follow a good and solid process. There has been a discussion document and representation from various expert groups prior to its getting to this stage. We are talking about it here and it will ease into the select committee process as we go through the end of this parliamentary session, unlike the changes to KiwiSaver part 1 and part 2, the fair dividend rate changes, and, goodness gracious, the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill that has roared through the Finance and Expenditure Committee without good, fair, and transparent submissions, consultation, etc. We are reaping the reward for that because we are bound to see some more Supplementary Order Papers on those measures. In fact this bill, deep down, includes amendments to some of the fair dividend rate changes and even the KiwiSaver changes, and if the Government had taken a bit more time on those, consulted a bit more widely, and not looked at the electoral clock but instead looked at a good and solid procedural clock, then perhaps the bill would be a few pages thinner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill forms a bit of a suite of bills, and I am surprised that the other two Ministers did not mention that, because there is some good, solid, cross-party support for most of the other bills\u2014the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Bill (No 3), the Financial Advisers Bill, and the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008072364a304c71566472ca51a2b2c0191c633000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"