"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f37cacd6e21477aad7790a691ee9a0f\u0022\u003EThursday, 24 July 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbd129b20f254e43b93f1e2249766919\u0022\u003EThursday, 24 July 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216187cdc43bf4e49bf4faf9fecfb4898\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022baf0e3f2aec741f0b848650ab2c65e99\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f923e24443324c648ffcd4b3268b2e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f923e24443324c648ffcd4b3268b2e79\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E When the House resumes on Tuesday, priority will be given to the remaining stages of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Committee stage of the Appropriation (2008/09 Estimates) Bill, which of course takes the form of the 8-hour estimates debate. If time allows, the Government will also seek to progress first readings of bills currently on the Order Paper. Wednesday is a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222e654a4f266a4d0884300b6604db799b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e654a4f266a4d0884300b6604db799b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Leader of the House and Deputy Prime Minister for that indication of what the Government hopes to progress as business. I would ask whether he is able to give us any further update on where things are with the emissions trading scheme bill, and also with the Real Estate Agents Bill, which was a high priority for the Government just a short time ago but now appears to be slipping down the Order Paper somewhat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223c5ff7a265694271a76200ebcef19ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c5ff7a265694271a76200ebcef19ae4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The Government now has, as no doubt members will notice, a very full Order Paper. There is plenty of work to continue through to the election, and indeed into the new term of the Government. On the other matters that the member raises, we shall see what progress is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e1eff0700db4cfd86946b7d5000db75\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a852c8381d6d4ec2b6ae6742a6a6bcdd\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u2014Donations to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae01c430496841569367a79ecab17668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae01c430496841569367a79ecab17668\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Prime Minister has said that the proper approach to the issue of Mr Peters and the $100,000 donation is through you, on the matter of members\u2019 pecuniary interests. Mr Copeland and I have made complaints to you. I was wondering, as there is a great deal of interest in this matter, whether you could enlighten the House as to the process that you are following and the timetable as to when we might hear the outcome. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022da7ade45a0754d078fad0c04635384d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da7ade45a0754d078fad0c04635384d9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Hide. I refer you to Speaker\u2019s ruling 170/4, for your information and maybe for the information of others in the House: \u201COnce a matter of privilege has been raised with the Speaker it is out of order to refer to it in debate in the House.\u201D I am aware that you have asked a question. I am following due process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7ac55ea0baf4b018cf61a63557ea4fa\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022425907e829f549b68f6f2a48fafbaa64\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fee2a95ee784434a53df0c5fb502a06\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation\u2014Funding Mechanisms\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6436fcc0d36456cba3a0516d5f42a84\u0022\u003E1. LESLEY SOPER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he received any reports from medical professionals on possible changes to funding mechanisms for accidents and injury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d880d6e1b34b4590b88d3d44b06697ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d880d6e1b34b4590b88d3d44b06697ed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. [Interruption] Thank you, Gerry. I have seen a report from New Zealand Doctor magazine, which calls National\u2019s accident compensation policy \u201Cideologically blinkered\u201D and goes on to state: \u201CIt leaves a reader wondering why National would want to trash ACC, save for putting money in the pockets of lawyers and international insurance companies.\u201D Doctors do not want National\u2019s accident compensation policy, I say to Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b589cc863724bd6a6a81a056641293d\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other reports from the medical sector regarding changes to funding mechanisms for accidents and injury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2f09029a1b4fbdaf58d527092c8a35\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; I have seen a report from the Society of Physiotherapists that states that under privatisation last time \u201Cpatients were caught in the middle of a \u2018bureaucratic nightmare\u2019, as physiotherapists and other providers struggled to see which company covered them.\u201D The only choice that National is offering patients is the choice to suffer. If National was committed to increasing choice, then it would have been up front with its policy, instead of whispering it to private business audiences, and it would not have come forward if it was not leaked by one of Mr Key\u2019s former colleagues at Merrill Lynch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022295e87508034405193eafcc995337f35\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on who may benefit from changes to funding mechanisms for accidents and injury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9c53dc5d3214924a249b3761f9b50e8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. The major beneficiaries of National\u2019s plans to privatise accident compensation would be lawyers and insurance companies. The real question that Mr Key needs to answer now is: would there be a competitive tender process, or has he already stitched up a deal and set a price?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc86cb0753ef48f38b09315d4f27c947\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That last comment was inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287cef221e5441b4a5a778bbf99e9b77\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that the Minister referred to the report by the Society of Physiotherapists that says how disgruntled it was at the last privatisation of accident compensation, has he seen the report of the physiotherapists that expresses their total disappointment that the Government has not gone with the financial aspects of the review into physiotherapists employed under the endorsed provider network scheme; if so, can he advise the House whether he would recommend to his colleague the Minister for ACC that something be done about that immediately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280de8d80d5174fa1a8e5458ba5f0b3d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right; that is a matter within the portfolio of my colleague the Minister for ACC. I have briefly seen the report, and I am advised that there has been good dialogue between physiotherapists and the Government and that more progress can be expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6b3503834d04a4884d2a9b0898fc43b\u0022\u003EPolitical Funding\u2014Sources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271133fb2381948028bd8c5a5da93b911\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by her statement that \u201Cgreater transparency about the sources of political funding will lead to increasing public confidence in our democracy.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea042dcacf6f443ba11d10dedfd4e166\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea042dcacf6f443ba11d10dedfd4e166\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb01716d44084939bfac7a0bb6ddaeff\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is it Government policy that a party should be able to solicit and collect a $25,000 donation, yet not declare any such donation in its returns to the Electoral Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620e57130d194aa294e663363dbae6fc\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is Government policy, with the changes in the Electoral Finance Act, that there be greater transparency. But I think this Parliament ought to know the real rort that has been going on here. The real rort is the National Party, which cashed up every penny it had before 31 December, cleaned out its trust accounts, cleaned out its anonymous donations, and cleaned out every piece of money it could get its hands on\u2014and we have the evidence for it: \u201CNats call in their secret donations\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f937d267de0a48a3add48d396f1f65e5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: By Nicky Hager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7ed47594184b50a9feeec50674836d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, in fact it came from the press gallery, which that member bases all his arguments in this House on. They transferred it to the National Party, and now there is no accountability as to where that money came from, what trust it came from, whether it was from the Exclusive Brethren, or whether it was from the fishing industry, the insurance industry, or the tobacco industry. The money went into the account to rort the Electoral Finance Act. That is the real scandal of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022902adf6c48f64313a881b6b8a13784f3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister appears to have forgotten what my question was, and she has gone on to her prepared answer, which is, of course, only able to be given because the National Party does say which trusts it gets money from\u2014unlike New Zealand First. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e20befa48f6046c8b4634f9144b66f9c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd7ec4df5af64efe9d5807cd04737360\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It is not us that have those hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of donations, like the Labour Party has. Is the Minister concerned that Sir Robert Jones has confirmed this morning that he paid $25,000 as a donation to New Zealand First as a party in 2005, but that New Zealand First returns to the Electoral Commission in 2005 and 2006 list no such donation; and if she is not concerned about that, how would her lack of concern line up with her stated desire to bring transparency and increased public confidence to political party funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022095a4e32d2ee46768626283b70ec684a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That would certainly be a matter for other authorities, not me. However, the Electoral Finance Act does ensure that there is greater transparency. But, of course, if one rorts the system before the Act comes in, as the National Party did, then one can be assured that lots of things are hidden. The Waitemata Trust, for example, handed over $424,000 just before the end of the calendar year, and the Ruahine Trust handed over $69,000, as National scooped up every piece of money it could. [Interruption] The member said that at least National knows what the trusts are. Well, nobody knows who the trustees of the Waitemata Trust are. Only one Mr Robert Brown, a longstanding business associate of National campaign strategist Murray McCully\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265ecbae752cf4351a9b42c2a2e6b2530\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a4b26947e5e4b009c14d4c8a4defb81\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there is a speech there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ab39fe8402468d8ea719fdaade4ade\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there is a speech. What is more, it is all available in the newspaper, because nobody is hiding anything. I take this opportunity outside of the normal range of questions to seek leave to table documents to show that Labour took $230,000 in donations from trusts in 2007 prior to the Electoral Finance Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263fa7a19dddf4b34814a422b1d2a6acd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an article by Ruth Laugesen, which shows that the National Party called in secret donations by Judy Kirk, who asked anonymous donors to put the money in before\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0fe06de7a524916a3504dade6b71d8d\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that there is a huge difference between trust accounts that were set up many years ago, and have channelled millions of dollars to the National Party, and the present situation of smears, innuendo, and false allegations levelled against New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260b8979fa32b4308b55d1aad10adff51\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: In my view, what the National Party is trying to do is hide its own activities by highlighting stories out of the media, which is what I have just been accused of doing. National has no other evidence than what it reads in the media, and on the basis of that it is attacking the New Zealand First Party to cover up its own shabby, dirty behaviour before the end of the financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce4485db6a024f0aaa17f3819a5ca9c5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I interrupt the flow of the Minister\u2019s answer for a further seeking of leave, because I think it will help the Minister\u2019s answers. I seek leave to table a transcript of Bob Jones saying this morning that he gave the money to New Zealand First and now wants to know where it went.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216da2b0f76b74634ad5108f9d6267449\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022447ec4c9ec13495fb8d7ced452a9edc9\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Speaker, in the light of concerns over donations to both New Zealand First and National, now support a Green Party amendment to the Electoral Finance Act proposing that only those who give very small donations should have their names left undisclosed to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260c58c48beda4806bd6c9a484829e6f8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has made it clear that the Labour Party would support getting rid of all anonymous donations, with State funding of political parties. That is a much cleaner approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259f63fb1edd44f7a93f196db77c14e6e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned by the fact that the New Zealand First leader, Winston Peters, received $100,000 from overseas billionaire Owen Glenn, and that Mr Peters and New Zealand First failed to declare that funding on official returns while Mr Peters has been considering a diplomatic appointment for Mr Glenn? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271910189991a4033a2ceabf5a763a2a0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding\u2014and there have been many questions in the House this week on it\u2014is that Mr Peters did not receive that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022153d2d4d23cd4d46a84dd7733b6a79b2\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the use of the Waitemata Trust by the National Party to hide the identity of donors was reprehensible, but does she also agree that New Zealand First\u2019s failing even to declare the existence of the Spencer Trust is just as bad?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f86e0cc4454311964b3c90b20a1172\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I know little or nothing of the Spencer Trust, but I certainly know a lot about the Waitemata Trust, because a lot of work has been done to show just what a sneaky little vehicle it is\u2014controlled and managed by Mr Browne, along with Mr McCully, to hide its donations from people like the Exclusive Brethren. I think any questions about the Spencer Trust would have to be directed to New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55d4503bd09472781b81988d460a7b3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said she did not know that Mr Peters had received a $100,000 donation, had she not heard the Prime Minister yesterday acknowledging that he had, and saying that he does not have to give it back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d28db9c33044c6ab92a1102196cdd9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No. I do not agree with what the member has said the Prime Minister said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75be0f15ee849e2ac3c19b1b32dc73a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think the recent revelations about the undisclosed funding given to New Zealand First undermine the integrity of Labour\u2019s Electoral Finance Act, given that New Zealand First was one of its most vehement supporters; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226989b561b7724bff908efe9b12dc81b1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: What has made the whole system a lot more transparent, going forward, is the Electoral Finance Act. I am really interested that this member asking the question is now very interested in transparency, but during the debate on the very bill, he opposed the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022894e9b9281b6479baf40cad7ead4f837\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: How can there be any confidence in New Zealand\u2019s democracy, when an overseas billionaire pays off Winston Peters\u2019 legal bill to the tune of $100,000 while seeking an honorary consulship, and Bob Jones gives Winston Peters $25,000 that disappears into his brother\u2019s trust account; and is not the real corruption the fact that Helen Clark refuses to investigate this money because she needs the vote of New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487043ddcd234fbabc6cfaffba038a56\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. If the member used the word \u201Ccorruption\u201D, would he please withdraw that and rephrase his question. He knows that that is a word that is unacceptable in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c150f11de7dc41e7ac7046494ecde205\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: How can there be any confidence in New Zealand\u2019s democracy, when an overseas billionaire pays off Winston Peters\u2019 legal bill to the tune of $100,000 while seeking an honorary consulship, and Bob Jones gives Winston Peters $25,000 that disappears into his brother\u2019s trust account; and is not the real problem in all of this the fact that Helen Clark refuses to investigate because she needs the vote of New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3668b41856043fa96957099619b1419\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has made it clear that there are many avenues to look at all the accusations the member has made, which are not backed up with proof. But I would say to the member that people in glass houses should not throw stones, because in 2007 ACT was late putting in its party donations return. So although ACT is very smart about everybody else, it could not keep up with what it was supposed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022672e9013652e48e1bc01fd060c5364d8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am concerned that the Minister of Justice would suggest that what I said in my question was not factual, when in fact it is absolutely factual. We have had the statement from Bob Jones, we have had the statement from Brian Henry, and I think it is a bit rich\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d12307b8396344a6b14b9b4995498a89\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dec21d7b7f64dcdb17f47918a57c487\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It is a good point, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b592e412593f4b0c85c9f391594d2dc8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Another comment like that and the member will be asked to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b22f456d53840b4bc57623654a05ef8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What are the penalties for deliberately submitting an incorrect or incomplete donation return to the Electoral Commission in any particular year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0211a6dc86f4126860fd994ef332104\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the legislation in front of me, but there are penalties; I refer the member to the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315152d3a931481c8e60d9ff58d6a619\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That is a very simple question. This Minister presided over the passing of the Act. Without losing a supplementary question, I wonder whether I might reword it in a way that the Minister might be able to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221803ca4f44e54f0595d3a46818d1389c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I listened; the Minister addressed the question. The member may not like the answer, but she did address the question. You may ask another supplementary question, if you wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a88fd1e4d64a92af58a3816c9dec05\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think the public interest in the revelations about undisclosed donations to New Zealand First, and the considerable donation made to New Zealand First by Owen Glenn, warrant further investigations by the Electoral Commission to ensure that New Zealand First now understands\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ceb8a9fa1a94e5bb17c9041568d334d\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It has been well established that Owen Glenn did not make any donation to New Zealand First. He made a donation to the legal fund of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and that is quite a different thing\u2014quite a different thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16ef778e306460692a8393cb52c5d24\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a matter of debate; it is not for the Speaker to rule on the accuracy of questions or answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299e49a5ff48f42e597908a090332bdc1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think the public interest in the revelations about donations to New Zealand First from both Bob Jones and Owen Glenn that have not been declared by New Zealand First warrant further investigation by the Electoral Commission; and will she, as Minister, ask the commission to consider making those investigations, or is it just\u2014as the Prime Minister said\u2014that there is a smorgasbord of things that could happen and they hope none of them do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8d7501b93a490f90bcfe3dc4977cad\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the Prime Minister never said any such thing; and the member just did what he constantly does\u2014he makes it up. He pretends he knows a lot about the Electoral Act, but he may not know that the Electoral Commission is actually independent of the Minister of Justice and it will decide whether it will investigate any action of any party in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278054dff9e1e44a1b0174b472324431c\u0022\u003ENational Policy Statement for Freshwater Management\u2014Safety of Water\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e5e5c14ee445feb1d37f09ffeabb89\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does the Government still promise New Zealanders it will clean up the nation\u2019s rivers to a level where they are safe to swim in within a generation; if so, can he say which objectives, if any, in the proposed National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, released yesterday, give a deadline by which our rivers and streams will be safe for New Zealanders to swim in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd9c39e28e9d4f749f2ed7beabbe1236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd9c39e28e9d4f749f2ed7beabbe1236\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member to pages 4, 6, 7, and 9 of the proposed National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, but suggest that he works from the one that was issued, not the one his friend gave him earlier, which was an earlier draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220418c657935c46e9a8a8f3aca5ba9492\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that those page references refer to a date of 2035, but that this date\u20142035\u2014is held and mentioned only in the preamble to the national policy statement, which has no authority, is not binding, and has no legal effect, and therefore will have no effect whatsoever in actually cleaning up our rivers and lakes by 2035? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d8156380db34024bb878af482a345f6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b41fd691e0654e38939769aa4cfe7710\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: How does the proposed national policy statement improve the guidance to councils on local consultation on water issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207a9ea1d30324a1e9ccfdd3e119b17b2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The local government consultation process allows changes around policy statements and plans. It allows communities to express their social, economic, and environmental aspirations, so that there can be the best use of fresh water in the region. The methods of achieving \u201Cswimmability\u201D will obviously differ between Otago and the lower Waikato.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c7cd458263347b18eebb0beca882c3b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister think that Kiwi parents will make of his national policy statement, when its ultimate goal is that 17 kids per 1,000 will be made sick when they swim in their local river, and that this goal may never even be achieved, because there is no time line or deadline for achieving it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de1c6b29902419baa1ac2e24fc226bb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike that member, I do not aim to make kids sick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224195b9e6185e406ca30cdb7e2de088c5\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I raise it in terms of whether the Minister addressed the question. It was about the national policy statement; it was not about whether I aim to make kids sick. I ask that the Minister address the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e493c3c4ddda442b8dbd2956c0ffda71\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister did address the question. I listened carefully to the question, and the elements were there, and the Minister did address it. He was asked the question as the Minister, not as an individual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b75fac86def8444a9c323224c4413718\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The issue of water quality is a serious one. The Green Party quite properly asked the Minister questions about it, but the Minister simply insulted the Green members by saying that they are somehow out to make children sick. I do not think that is appropriate conduct, and I ask you to reflect on whether those sorts of personal, derogatory statements to members are fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb06d3a52b646648730890a296732ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, Madam Speaker, the question itself tried to imply that the Minister intended to make people sick; and, secondly, it misrepresented what the standard actually means, by turning it round and making an imputation on the basis of that. If members ask questions in that form, they can expect to get a fairly short, sharp response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d010549f944473c84d0584c8a7d1b25\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said before in this House, I know that this is difficult for members to accept but often the answers reflect the questions. I do listen to them carefully, and that answer did address the question, but obviously not to the satisfaction of members in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022028f516b074e4128affc5bd0bf09edbf\u0022\u003EOrganised and Financial Crime Agency\u2014Operation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b66f11e453d4bfca75a658e0c8103c3\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she agree with the former Director of the Serious Fraud Office\u2019s statement yesterday that the powers of the new Organised and Financial Crime Agency were not the same as those of the Serious Fraud Office, and that court proceedings would delay cases by years, or lead to cases being dropped; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002212f23ee74cd94fd8b46a2442b014f546\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212f23ee74cd94fd8b46a2442b014f546\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E No, I do not agree, nor, I am advised, does the Law Commission or the Commissioner of Police. In fact, I understand that Mr Power\u2019s two National colleagues Kate Wilkinson and Chester Borrows do not agree, either. The only person, as far as I can work out, who does agree with Mr Bradshaw is Mr Power himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273531ca7584f4a8c861408b2a11672f9\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Was David Bradshaw correct, then, when he told the select committee that the Serious Fraud Office currently has the power to make people front up to interviews and answer questions, even if they are self-incriminating, but under the new law \u201Cthe examination powers are totally different\u201D because a court order is required for an interview, and the interviewee is now able to refuse to answer questions; if so, can she explain how this change in powers will not cause significant delays?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b21ae191ace64473b2a7282df84dde39\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There are no changes to the powers; there are changes to the procedures in order to authorise the use of those powers. That is what was said by those who made submissions to the select committee\u2014except for Mr Bradshaw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c14bf0e5be4405cabf5ed32aa55ca5c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that section 9 of the Serious Fraud Office Act states that the Director of the Serious Fraud Office may require any person to attend an interview, answer questions, and supply information, yet clause 30 of the bill before the select committee allows the interviewee to assert privilege against self-incrimination, and even if the Serious Fraud Office seeks a further court order, the court could uphold the person\u2019s refusal to answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba679a8a2998485aa087e35da04c7169\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The issue of self-incrimination was raised in the decision making around the change. The issue was not sought by the police, because things have moved on considerably. It is not a power; the powers of examination and the powers of production have not changed. The issue around self-incrimination has not been carried over, because it was not asked for by the police, and also because we know that self-incrimination powers are not needed to be able to get information from people. The police have shown that over many years. People can be required to give information, but they forget to give information, they can lie, and they can refuse to answer. It was always said that self-incrimination would not be carried over. The changes that the member has been speaking about are around production and examination powers. Those powers are peculiar to the Serious Fraud Office. They are carried over to the new agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e634791596534723bf6b45da557a48d0\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister expect that there is a risk of delay associated with the requirements of the Serious Fraud Office (Abolition and Transitional Provisions) Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221016a40482341859ae015141bd5f5db\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that Mr Bradshaw has raised the issue of court delays through judicial review. The common law already protects the police from judicial review of their decision to investigate or prosecute. In addition, clause 33 of the bill intends to carry over the current section 21 of the Serious Fraud Office Act, which prevents people from using judicial review as a way of holding up investigations or delaying compliance with orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dcb8c64f0424e7aaf029db4fe6659e3\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement in the House yesterday that the new Organised and Financial Crime Agency has the same powers as the Serious Fraud Office but with judicial oversight; if so, how does she reconcile that with the papers she submitted to Cabinet in March, which, in addition to judicial authorisation, \u201Cpropose more precise thresholds or restrictions for the examination power.\u201D that will be \u201Climited by \u2026 clear legislative criteria or restrictions around their use.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb52e51518cf45d1a378b866b360b907\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds like change to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f288409aca87422ab6a25f96feb7e11f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The production and examination powers in the bill\u2014the changes\u2014require the approval of the Commissioner of Police or his delegate, and, in a small number of cases, examination orders, in a non-business context, require the additional approval of the Secretary for Justice. That is what the change is\u2014not the powers themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe9f29b1053400081cd0beef949a81e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds like a change to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215944bdc6ec4d7589eb753c5b972790\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It might sound like it to that member. He should ask Chester Borrows and Kate Wilkinson, who have heard how it works, whether they now agree with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260eb6521002542efba339fbe64e42178\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can the current powers of the Serious Fraud Office and the new powers of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency be the same, as she claimed yesterday, when under the new regime people will be able to refuse to answer questions but under the current law they cannot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b09c32b41d94c98bc616660bad9cada\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Under the current law they cannot refuse, but they could lie, they could forget, and they could, in fact, not provide evidence. The police have far more experience, as Mr Borrows knows, in getting evidence from people than any such provision in the Serious Fraud Office Act could provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f97b3aa118408088c0a88cca435be5\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that on 10 December last year Cabinet asked her to resubmit a paper that specifically sought to clarify \u201Cthe nature of the powers proposed for the Serious Fraud Office in the new Organised Crime Agency, particularly regarding document production and compulsory examination, and how those powers could be ring fenced \u2026\u201D; if so, does that mean that, at an earlier stage, there was an intention to retain the identity of the Serious Fraud Office within the Organised and Financial Crime Agency, with its current powers intact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226103f6f5c2354b67ad22ca0ce48d4381\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No. A decision was made to shift the Serious Fraud Office to a new agency under the control of the New Zealand Police. I announced that, Cabinet asked for further work to be done on what the agency\u2019s powers would be, and I made that announcement at the time that we announced we were transferring the office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7ebb7d169c740c4a2b08b150afda691\u0022\u003ECommunity Organisations\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2064640d6c2450ba2b8ebee58f9c9e6\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What progress has been made towards the full funding of community organisations delivering essential services to children, young people, and families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00223f6770c5a25e43b58a7e5d4dbeddae05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f6770c5a25e43b58a7e5d4dbeddae05\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The first Pathways to Partnership payments are now going out to over 850 community groups. Yesterday I met with the Mother of Divine Mercy Refuge Charitable Trust, which supports families that have experienced family violence. This year the trust will receive a funding increase of more than $110,000, and its funding will continue to increase every year until it reaches full funding in 2012. Organisations like the Mother of Divine Mercy Refuge Charitable Trust are being recognised by our Government for the vital services and support that they provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265af107ee8614c1995eca5d62b279c3f\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen of alternative funding models for the community sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046fcd4636b04fb09639e8c3a7afb740\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a model built on the philosophy that \u201Cthe Government is really just a purchaser of services and the need to sustain a longer-term relationship is not an explicit part of its actions.\u201D That is the model advocated by the National Party\u2014an approach based on competitive bidding wars. The model would favour large providers, such as the huge Australian organisation currently courting the National Party. Local community groups would be left struggling and unable to support the vulnerable families that need their help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd6e6f106d84c7384af29be92802f43\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why has it taken 9 years for this Government to finally adopt full funding, when it has known for years that community groups are struggling to meet their costs due to the uncertainty over funding, the 1-year contracts, and the taking away of contracts just as they get going; and why is the full-funding model that the Minister has announced being adopted by the Government only after National announced it would do it\u2014why does she have to copy National Party policy again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df392713a704d9ca9a1523416cddbb9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: There are three quick points that I would like to make. Firstly, it is a bizarre situation for that member to be saying \u201Ctoo little, too late\u201D to a move in the Budget that she and her party opposed and voted against on the public record. Secondly, within each Budget there is only a certain amount of National Party wreckage that we can restore\u2014like restoring superannuation, and like returning to income-related rents for State housing. Thirdly, I want to clarify the misunderstanding that the member has about her own party policy, which is not to have full funding for essential social services, but is, to quote John Key, to \u201Cencourage community groups to put in bids\u201D\u2014in a competitive tendering process\u2014\u201Cwhich reflect the full cost of delivery,\u201D. That is a big difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ad109ce5e248799ff1751a7ae5eabf\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a Ministry of Social Development document on Pathways to Partnership that shows that it is 60 percent funding, not full funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002238483b5a9fa543b4b5e71e95767478ca\u0022\u003EChild Support\u2014Total Debt\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e433f12cfaf48f982dc30ff7f14d882\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: What is the total current child support debt broken down by assessment and penalties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00225f92e63b16814d8ea56aa1471f2355e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f92e63b16814d8ea56aa1471f2355e6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: As at 30 June 2008 the total child support debt owed by liable parents, payees, and child support employers was: in assessment debt, $501,889,098; in penalty debt, $833,937,558\u2014totalling $1,335,826,657.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb8bde09148645129f4eadaf2a9b8d84\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that the assessment debt has grown from $192 million in 2000 to more than $471 million today, and what is the explanation for this, given the $280 million increase in assessment debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cb7e0f1b62499087d1106d8e2c5265\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In both the cash collections, which are now approximately $1 million per day\u2014an increase of 4 percent\u2014and the collections on Australia, which is now $20.6 million for the last financial year compared with $13.3 million the previous year, we have seen an increase. More can be done, but in both instances we have seen an increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3a7193a33114e49b2457b2fe5dfec9c\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that the number of Inland Revenue Department staff employed specifically to deal with unpaid child support has increased from 98 in June 2004, to 214 in June this year; and does the Minister have any idea what these staff are actually doing, because clearly they are not collecting the unpaid child support debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203610f3496c34731b135b12121fff920\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: From the figures I gave to the member in the previous supplementary question: clearly they are. But they are now on notice that should that member ever be part of a Treasury front bench, their jobs will be on the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229515057be53140b6b920d776ac94ce15\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be satisfied with a child support system that enables 35 of the top 100 child support debtors to take off overseas, free to leave and enter New Zealand as they please, even though they owe between $300,000 and $600,000 each, and if these same people owed $5,000 for parking or speeding tickets they would be stopped at the airport; what is the difference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2ab665b78f429587b31bc55b18e239\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Data match legislation was passed by this House enabling the Inland Revenue Department and the Customs Service to ensure that people leaving and entering New Zealand did have their child support liabilities checked. That member and her party voted against that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9548aa7d8db4d7a8a85200d20c431e5\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be satisfied with the child support system when just 35 people owe a staggering $14 million between them, yet they are free to enter and leave New Zealand as they please because this Government cares more about parking fines than it does about children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6c594f764147fb94b2fec088c2fe6e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No indication of total satisfaction has been given. That member should recall that her party voted against strengthening provisions that enabled the Inland Revenue Department and the Customs Service to data match in order to enable more child support debtors to repay that debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565e7dc69d53426ba70fe62c9c9feab6\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about the values of this Government when it thinks that stopping child support debtors at the airport is Draconian, but when it comes to people with speeding or parking tickets, it has adopted the following approach: \u201CIf you are planning on going overseas this summer you might want to pay your fines, or you could end up staying in New Zealand.\u201D, and \u201Cfine dodgers must pay the fine or pay the price.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb32ce42b104624a46bd28dd8854cab\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said in the answers to previous supplementary questions, the most recent of several provisions, either in legislation or in inter-Government agreements to strengthen the arm of the Inland Revenue Department to reduce child support debt, were opposed by that member and her party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1e5d86528d4226bd38780b0779e6ba\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the leaflet Pay or Stay, Rick Barker\u2019s getting tough on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ade353386048d48d2435e10bde7a94\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc19e908468843538074f7d830410acf\u0022\u003ERural Health\u2014Ministry of Health Actions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c50fbb2939e452e8ca2e14004a21393\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Will his ministry be taking any action to address the concerns outlined in the discussion document recently released by the New Zealand Institute of Rural Health; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022525bb5dc4a074654bf3e610d83b263a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022525bb5dc4a074654bf3e610d83b263a0\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can tell the member that the Ministry of Health has been taking action on the issues outlined in that discussion document since Labour came into Government. Every year we spend an additional $100 million through the rural adjuster to district health board funding. We have committed $150 million for safer drinking water and $173 million for sewerage schemes for small rural communities. Each year we commit $8 million for health workforce retention in rural communities. We spend $5 million for mobile surgical services. We spend $4 million for the rural bonus to rural general practitioners and nurses, and $2 million for reasonable rosters for rural general practitioners and nurses. We have paid rural midwives a rural bonus and developed a Rural Innovations Fund. I could go on and on. We have an excellent track record in rural health compared with the National Party, which has less than one page on rural health policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864d09b706e949408520df9376cbba5d\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Ministry of Health\u2019s implementation plan for the rural sector date back to 2002; if so, is it not time to formulate a new strategy taking into account factors such as workforce shortages and clinical safety in rural hospitals; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76c2df9da1c4fab907a255e205b1d9b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: A rural expert advisory group wrote a report for the Minister in 2002 on implementing the Primary Health Care Strategy in New Zealand. The vast majority of its recommendations, as stated in the recent report, have been addressed and implemented. For example, the discussion document states that the Government has been focusing on workforce issues through that period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be2188593d74af484262b0d3517fc1b\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s view of the value of the discussion document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225322347435f94ad09a260cb95fe64eb3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Although I acknowledge the good intent behind the document, I have to question the accuracy of some of the data that are included. For example, it refers to a downturn in the rural economy, when in fact the rural sector has been thriving under high commodity prices in recent years. The discussion document also claims there has been a 32 percent reduction in the rural primary health care workforce, when my figures show there has been an increase in rural general practitioners receiving the rural bonus from 415 in 2005-06 to 453 in 2007-08. I also note that the organisation that wrote the discussion document is soliciting a contract to write a rural health strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b197d5c7d9e149b99c3760e5caac6589\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Why, after failing to complete the review of the rural emergency response scheme PRIME, after failing to complete the review of the rural ranking scale, and after failing to complete the review of after-hours services\u2014all detailed in the discussion document\u2014is this Labour Government so intent on hui and \u201Cno do-ey\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290b8b605b0cf4a0d91148db11c5fb7df\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I have to inform that member that I do not think there has been one hui on this particular issue. The vast majority of the health workforce in this country, with a few exceptions of course, is non-M\u0101ori\u2014which is a little unfortunate, I have to say. We have been working through a review of the rural ranking scale and the after-hours issues. Unfortunately such anomalies as the general practitioners in Queenstown receiving a significant rural bonus are things that I want to work through. I have every intention of paying, including the $5 million allocated in this year\u2019s Budget for after-hours services, money to those rural practitioners who are under pressure. I am not prepared to commit money to rural practitioners who are not providing after-hours care or who are not working in rural areas but have somehow qualified, through an inappropriate ranking scheme, for a rural bonus. I am working through those issues as quickly as I can, and I would welcome the opportunity to engage with the Rural GP Network on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c5ea91350a74fdaa82a21721e53674a\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the rural general practice workforce declined by 32 percent between 2000 and 2005, and will that hasten consideration of voluntary bonding initiatives by the Ministry of Health; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224334f15c124d417a959b29b9f656be00\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that I do not accept those figures. There is some debate around the information on how many rural practitioners there are, and I would welcome more cooperation with the Rural GP Network in that area to clarify those issues. In regard to rural bonding, which the National Party has committed itself to, can I just quote back from the Rural GP Network, which says: \u201CDon\u2019t, because it won\u2019t work.\u201D It supports incentivising, because bonding does not work. It is an old-fashioned idea. That is classic National Party policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269835f7b8c694304ae12175ed64ca8c9\u0022\u003EBiofuels\u2014Compulsory Requirement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e1eb602c26442f81f5a7c702a890e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: Is the Government reconsidering its mandatory requirement for biofuels from 1 October 2008, given the widespread international concern about sustainability and impacts on food prices and the sustainability standard not coming into effect at the earliest until July 2009?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022114ec9205558489ab915c450df19eab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022114ec9205558489ab915c450df19eab6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E No. Biofuels are already being sold in New Zealand. Currently they can be imported and used from unsustainable sources. Whatever way we look at it, the bill improves the status quo. National\u2019s opposition is just another excuse for delay, exposing once again its hollow pretence on climate change issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229042c9d7fef646c787b16693bb9474e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that, like with the emissions trading legislation, he does not have the numbers on the Biofuel Bill, and that is why it sits at No. 22 on the Order Paper and more than 4 weeks has passed since it was reported back from the select committee, with no signs of getting to a second reading?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863925d9323f47489a5643f2394e84d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought that Dr Smith learnt yesterday that questions on the progress of legislation in the House are to be addressed to the Leader of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111947689f06498693de6d701d0f8ecc\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: To the Minister\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202d5654fb40643a1bb657a427df723c7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry I did not hear the member. I cannot hear with the level of chatter, particularly from members who sit close to the Speaker. It is almost impossible to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a457b3a7ac64b44a914ade746fea7ea\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question asked whether the Minister had the numbers. On previous occasions you have ruled that is within a Minister\u2019s responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4b1ac243514c7bae67ca7bb0d5297c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not all, however, that the member asked in the question; I listened to it. If the Minister wants to add anything more that is within his portfolio, then he may. [Interruption] He does not want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b793071f61ff45e6a4f246530ddb86dc\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: What reports does the Minister have of New Zealand companies that want the Biofuel Bill to pass?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b6c92ab740d4727a58d9b7dbba92c09\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand companies are queuing up to produce sustainable biofuels once the bill is passed, but they want the certainty the legislation provides. I find it extraordinary that National, which claims to support enterprise in business, is doing everything it can to stop sustainable New Zealand businesses getting off the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216803e90036c4d5cb4fc1961502db92f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Has he read the latest report from the OECD published last week that concludes that biofuels have limited benefit in reducing emissions and are responsible for 30 percent of the international increase in food prices\u2014this coming on the heels of negative reports from Oxfam, the G8, the World Food Programme, the Royal Society, and the United Nations Secretary-General all calling for such biofuels policies to be reconsidered\u2014and why is the Government ignoring those reports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1d0dcd6bc634563bceabfb5b6d96286\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Smith remains confused by the proposition that just because some biofuels are bad, not all are. I am not surprised he is confused, because there is confusion on climate change issues across National. We have Mr Key, on the one hand, saying: \u201CI firmly believe in climate change and always have.\u201D, despite being on the Hansard record\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e61751cbd144978bb2d8f39c090028\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is a habit of the Government when it is in trouble to want to talk about National policy and what we say, rather than being accountable. My question was about the OECD report on biofuels and what Oxfam, the G8, and the United Nations have said about biofuels, and it made no reference to National\u2019s climate change policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255f45155f72943738a09157e04e004c1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If we could just listen to the Minister\u2019s answer, then we can judge whether it addresses the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225686f9946a5049c285a254af9b757828\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was pointing out that confusion can arise in National on these issues because it has Mr Key saying: \u201CEven if one believes in global warming, and I am somewhat suspicious of it \u2026\u201D, yet later saying: \u201CI firmly believe in climate change, and always have.\u201D Mr Key will say whatever he thinks New Zealanders want to hear, but he and National have a very different agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723aaa55799d4e0389b474bb19425381\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How can that response in any way be considered an answer to the question? If you would like me to, I will read it again. It was about the OECD report that concludes that biofuels have limited benefit in reducing emissions, about the responsibility of biofuels for the 30 percent increase in international food prices, and about reports from other organisations. If you are to allow that response as an answer to a question, then a Minister can effectively talk about any old thing and you will say that it addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abfaa3fb06cb44e6af1227eb1648c654\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has pointed out that the member who asked the question is confused about the difference between sustainable biofuels and non-sustainable biofuels, and that that confusion was interpretative of the National Party\u2019s approach to the entire climate change area. Unfortunately, politics goes both ways in this House, not just from there to here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b598067d0a364d118334f92e468a0de2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know that members may at times feel frustrated with the answers, but members cannot require a specific answer to a question. Often the questions are long and prefaced by many statements, and, therefore, the answers they get are sometimes not satisfactory. In this instance, the answer did relate to the question. It may not have satisfied the member, but it did address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f3fbfa9c014af19f37a4ebfd0f57ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister justify the cost identified in the OECD report on biofuels of between US$960 and US$1,700 per tonne of greenhouse gas emissions saved; and why would any Government want to impose this cost at a time when inflation is at the worst it has been for 20 years and families are under record budget pressure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f85ec00b82943b9ae878086c049fafa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because not all biofuels are to that effect. Dr Smith has already been outed for misrepresenting the advice given to the select committee. It is now clear that with the current prices of oil, sustainable biofuels can be brought forward at or below the current cost of oil-based alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b4a4f79d6e48cbb4ec626f0632276e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm to the House whether he has a majority in Parliament to support the Biofuel Bill, given that the compulsory requirement is due to take effect in just 8 weeks\u2019 time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f641ba513d2c415ab0dc275fb2c03884\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I could if I desired to, but I will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e05f267dd08a4e759f14946ce8b50d2d\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the submission made to the select committee by the Automobile Association, and, noting that the association represents one million - odd motorists in this country, can he advise whether cognisance will be taken of its recommendations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28b52406a794714a8c0130948a38fb0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Automobile Association raised proper concerns about biofuels at some levels being incompatible with vehicles. It is clear that biofuels at the levels that are proposed currently, which are similar to the biofuels that are already being delivered around the country at a number of locations, will not cause a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79fff0b9a58488494915c7a9a59a87c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain why under the Government\u2019s biofuels policy there is a 42c a litre advantage of ethanol over bio-diesel when both officials and the select committee concluded that there is no justification for that bias?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3d8ee92a3c4f6a8052e0985372e90b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The select committee reported the bill back in that form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a32d0779b95d4177b99a7ed6477b0306\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that during the mere 10 months before detailed sustainability regulations come into force, those selling biofuels in New Zealand will have to report publicly on their origin and on how they are consistent with the sustainability principles of the Act; and does he think that any firm would be stupid enough to try to foist on to the New Zealand public biofuels that contribute to world hunger, given the Act that is about to come into force and given the wide publicity about the kinds of biofuels that are used overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5a15713f45a4f4fa6edaa420b550453\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question makes the point quite well, but I would also re-emphasise what I said in response to an earlier question\u2014that is, without this legislation, of course, those protections do not exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2d48a522794ddb82969babab48ea1b\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Green Party\u2019s contribution to the Biofuel Bill, new section 34GA, which shows that biofuels will not be able to contribute to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4c08944997437d9a36d45af31eaba4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the report of the OECD on biofuels, urging Governments not to proceed with such\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fec9bfc06d874286ae28ebd5921142d5\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Education\u2014Secondary School Qualifications\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0aff3061046481e9a46fe8cc4cf9e70\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: Ka p\u0113hea te whakatika a te Minita i nga hapa o te p\u016Bnaha k\u0101wanatanga e p\u0101 ana ki te haurua, neke atu o ng\u0101 \u0101konga M\u0101ori i mutu te kura i t\u0113r\u0101 tau me te kore oti i a r\u0101tou t\u0113tahi tohu m\u0101tauranga o te r\u0113anga tuaono?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[What will he do to address the systemic failure which has resulted in more than half of M\u0101ori students leaving school last year without completing a sixth-form qualification?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022e505da6ffc7643cab7bbd027232f6c73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e505da6ffc7643cab7bbd027232f6c73\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Customs) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Associate Minister of Education: Tino nui rawa atu ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga pai kua puta ki roto i ng\u0101 tikanga akoranga M\u0101ori. I te tau 2007, ko te w\u0101hanga \u014D r\u0101tou i wehe mai i ng\u0101 kura i eke ki te tautama tuarua o National Certificate of Educational Achievement, runga ake r\u0101nei, e 44 \u014D-rau. Kia whakaritea ki te tau 1999, an\u0101, 19.7 \u014Drau noa iho o r\u0101tou i wehe mai i ng\u0101 kura, i eke ki t\u0113n\u0101 taumata. Ko \u0113nei pikinga i whakaata i te piriponotanga a te K\u0101wanatanga ki te whakapai ake i ng\u0101 huanga akoranga M\u0101ori. He nui rawa atu ng\u0101 mahinga kua oti, he nui an\u014D me mahia, \u0101, kei te mahi tonu m\u0101tou. There has been massive improvement in M\u0101ori educational achievement. In 2007 the proportion of M\u0101ori school-leavers achieving National Certificate of Educational Achievement level 2 or above was 44 percent; only 18.7 percent of M\u0101ori school-leavers in 1999 achieved an equivalent level. This improvement reflects the Government\u2019s commitment to improving M\u0101ori educational outcomes. A lot is being done, there is still more to do, and we are doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2cfd74dcff4647901f98e7bec8a25d\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: He aha ng\u0101 tauira M\u0101ori e puta mai ai i te kura he iti ake ng\u0101 tohu m\u0101tauranga ki ng\u0101 tohu o w\u0113tahi ake momo iwi? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Why are M\u0101ori students leaving school with lower levels of education than students from other ethnic groups?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b40932eb07847eca7389462cb7914a0\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Ahakoa he iti ka haere whakamua. Ko te mea nui m\u014D t\u0113nei k\u0101wanatanga, ka haere tahi m\u0101tou ki te h\u0101pai i ng\u0101 hua o te m\u0101tauranga ki te iwi M\u0101ori. Although these are small steps, they are a concerted effort to go forward. The most important thing for this Government is that we take a combined approach to ensure that the benefit and support of educational opportunities extend to M\u0101ori. In fact, the statistics show that since 1999 there have been great improvements in terms of M\u0101ori staying at school and gaining qualifications while at school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61b8c4da4584d2eabc21c0af02db14b\u0022\u003ELouisa Wall\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Ka taea e te Minita te k\u014Drero m\u014D \u0113tahi kaupapa k\u014Dkiri e whakatinana ana t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga hei whakapai ake i ng\u0101 putanga m\u0101 te ranga M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b4a597dd-ed8b-42b8-975b-40c6e0cdaee1\u0022\u003E[Can the Minister outline some specific initiatives that this Government is implementing to improve M\u0101ori educational outcomes?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09bc049b63a4394afb1aa4942b6021f\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, kei te mahi tonu t\u0113nei k\u0101wanatanga ki te whakapai ake i ng\u0101 huanga akoranga m\u014D ng\u0101i M\u0101ori t\u0101piri atu ki te whanaketanga o Ka Hikitia i takoha mai r\u0101 e ng\u0101 tohunga ako M\u0101ori, ng\u0101 hapori M\u0101ori me te R\u0101rangi Akoranga, Te Marautanga, he marautanga \u0101rahi akoranga i roto takotoranga M\u0101ori, te marautanga hou m\u014D Aotearoa, a Schools Plus, e rapu ana ki te whakatika i ng\u0101 hapa p\u016Bnaha o muri me te whakawhiwhi i t\u0113tehi rautaki m\u014D ng\u0101 akoranga katoa kia noho mai ki roto i ng\u0101 mahi whakangungu akoranga atu hoki, \u0101, eke noa ki te tau tekau m\u0101 waru. This Government continues to work towards improving educational outcomes for M\u0101ori, including the development of Ka Hikitia, which was contributed to by M\u0101ori educationalists, M\u0101ori communities, and the education sector; Te Marautanga, the curriculum to guide education in M\u0101ori medium settings; a revised New Zealand curriculum; and Schools Plus, which seeks to address the systemic failures of the past and to provide a strategy for all learners to remain in education and/or training until the age of 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6567b51185493b898c7fc80123890e\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou o te Whare. Kei te \u2019hakaae te Minita m\u0113n\u0101 e hiahia ana t\u0101tou kia kite i te k\u014Dkiritanga o te iwi M\u0101ori, n\u0101 reira e tika ana n\u0101 t\u0101tou o t\u0113nei Whare kiatautokongia ng\u0101 h\u014Dtaka kia noho tonu ng\u0101 tauira M\u0101ori ki te kura kia whai tohu m\u0101tauranga, m\u0113n\u0101, \u0101e me p\u0113hea, m\u0113na k\u0101hore e aha ai? Does the Minister agree that if we wish to see the advancement of M\u0101ori, then it is right that this House support programmes to have M\u0101ori students remain at school to gain an educational qualification; if he does, how; if not, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a786c21a9f4d89af904407c88bece9\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, koin\u0101 te take ka huri \u014D m\u0101tou hiahia ki \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 ripoata kua k\u014Drerohia e au. [Yes, that is the reason why our ambitions refer to other reports that I alluded to previously.] Ko te hiahia kia noho roa ng\u0101 tauira ki te kura. Our aim is to ensure that students stay at school for longer. Ko te mea pai ake o te Schools Plus he maha ng\u0101 huarahi hei awhi \u0101 t\u0101tou nei tauira me \u0101 r\u0101tou akoranga ki te kura, ki te whiwhi mahi, aha r\u0101nei. The most important aspect of the Schools Plus initiative, for example, is to ensure that there is a range of pathways for young M\u0101ori to support their learning and career opportunities, so that they can get a job or pursue higher learning opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9272ea7962d4d7b989c5e87999f8518\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: He aha te take e p\u0113nei ana te k\u014Drero, e toru \u014D-rau noa iho ng\u0101 tauira P\u0101keh\u0101 e puta mai ana i te kura, k\u0101ore rawa \u014D r\u0101tou tohu m\u0101tauranga; otir\u0101, tekau \u014D-rau ng\u0101 tauira M\u0101ori e p\u0113nei ana te kore tohu? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Why are only 3 percent of P\u0101keh\u0101 leaving school with no formal attainment while 10 percent of M\u0101ori are in that same position?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d430900a424d28845298510b8536f7\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: E ai ki ng\u0101 tatauranga o Te T\u0101huhu o te M\u0101tauranga, ko te mea nunui mai i te tau 1999, ka pai ake ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga ki \u014D t\u0101tou nei tauira M\u0101ori. Koin\u0101 te mea nunui. I think when people look at the statistics from the Ministry of Education they will certainly see an improvement in educational outcomes for M\u0101ori since 1999. They have been attaining higher qualifications. That shows that this Government has done more in our 8 years than the previous National Government did between the years 1990 and 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d169bf8db634736887010f122b8623e\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: P\u0113hea \u014Dna nei whakaaro ki a wai te tino rangatiratanga m\u014D ng\u0101 tamariki haere ana ki te kura, ko ng\u0101 m\u0101tua, ko ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau o ng\u0101 tamariki, ko ng\u0101 Tari o te M\u0101tauranga, ki te k\u0101wanatanga, ki \u0113tahi atu raini? Does the Minister think that parents and wh\u0101nau have a responsibility to ensure that their children attend school and complete their education, or should it just be left to the Ministry of Education, to the Government, or to someone else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff7b20767a64b2b8f34730299e06703\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, ko koutou e m\u014Dhio ana ki te wh\u0101ngai p\u0113pi, ki te tiaki \u014D koutou nei tamariki, koi n\u0101 te mea nunui kei waenganui i ia wh\u0101nau ng\u0101 whakautu ki \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 o ng\u0101 toimahatanga ki te taha m\u0101tauranga engari, i te mutunga, kei a m\u0101tou ki te taha k\u0101wanatanga hei whakatakoto \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 kaupapa ki te h\u0101pai t\u0113nei \u0101huatanga me p\u0113whea e taea e t\u0101tou te tautoko ng\u0101 hiahia o \u014D t\u0101tou nei tamariki kia eke ai r\u0101tou ki \u014D r\u0101tou nei taumata. Yes, I certainly agree, and many members across the House who are parents and who have raised children know that within the family there are many solutions to support the educational aspirations of our young people. On the Government\u2019s part, we are working hard to ensure that there are responses that continue to work to support the educational aspirations of young M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251f2cafb7daa4f76bc2eeb2203cc6bd2\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: E m\u014Dhio ana ia, tokorua irakati ono ng\u0101 tauira M\u0101ori e whakatahaina ana m\u014D ia tauira P\u0101keh\u0101; tokowh\u0101 e panaia ana m\u014D ia tauira P\u0101keh\u0101; he maha atu ng\u0101 tauira M\u0101ori e whakat\u0101rewatia ana, \u0101, e p\u0113nei ana ng\u0101 rere k\u0113tanga i ng\u0101 tau; hoi, \u0101whea ia tahuri ai ki te whakatika i t\u0113nei parekura? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Is he aware that M\u0101ori students are stood down at a rate 2.6 times greater than that of their P\u0101keh\u0101 peers, are excluded four times more often than P\u0101keh\u0101 are, and are still disproportionately represented in suspension statistics, and that these differences have remained relatively constant over the years; when will he do anything to address this crisis of endemic proportions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff14018877649039f7c1dd3541254f4\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I will respond to that question quite directly, because although the member has raised a number of issues, let us put them into context. Since 1999 this Government has made a number of moves to ensure that the ability to stand down, suspend, and exclude students is limited, and the member will know that. Many initiatives around the country have shown that where we have taken action to limit the ability for schools to suspend, exclude, and stand down students, the outcomes have been tremendous. More to the point, since 1999 we have seen an improvement in the numbers of M\u0101ori staying at school for longer and gaining more qualifications. This Government has not stopped its programme of work; Schools Plus will work hard to ensure that many more of the students whom that member talks about can continue to be engaged in further education, training, or upskilling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022528da8945dd24bfca83f464f8eccb00b\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Trustee\u2014General Purposes Fund\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d593fffb4ba4d5a9b2b71d074a65396\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Does the M\u0101ori Trustee support the expropriation of $35 million out of the M\u0101ori Trustee\u2019s general purposes fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022462beb7124cb48cca3ed1197edb3085c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022462beb7124cb48cca3ed1197edb3085c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Building and Construction)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: The M\u0101ori Trustee has been closely involved in the development of this proposal, and supports the M\u0101ori Business Aotearoa New Zealand concept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279524c6af6c2481494dd46d8a9b49a4f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not correct that last year the Minister\u2019s office was in talks with the M\u0101ori Trustee about becoming an investor in a development fund; and that the Minister put papers to Cabinet recommending it expropriate $35 million of trustee money, only after the M\u0101ori Trustee refused to become that investor, to the tune of $35 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bcad20f8d64bfe9c3f59fd24b497e3\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori Trustee is a highly valued civil servant and administrator, and, indeed, he released a public statement yesterday amplifying the level of support he gives to the proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5db332fb104f40a8c8b01787cd4bee\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: In the press release that the Minister refers to, did the M\u0101ori Trustee refer to his support, or otherwise, of the expropriation of $35 million out of the general purposes fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac8767ec9ee84fa7a7d6f5b56673005c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: What is at stake here is a proposal to write off over $60 million worth of historical debt, and to introduce $19 million\u2014to improve the operational capacity of the M\u0101ori Trustee\u2014a $4 million capital grant, and a transfer of $35 million. It is akin to transferring from one waka to the other\u2014something the member is a tohunga at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5c0a32c09d49c195867c23c550b00a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that yesterday\u2019s press release was not issued by the M\u0101ori Trustee but by the communications manager at Te Puni K\u014Dkiri after news of the M\u0101ori Trustee\u2019s opposition to the expropriation of $35 million of trustee money was leaked, and that none of the comments his department strong armed out of the M\u0101ori Trustee in a vain attempt at damage control even mention the expropriation of the $35 million that I have asked about in the last three questions and not got an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220001da5197c64c11bf698ae160bd04fa\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, a bill lies before the select committee, which the member occasionally turns up at. Number two\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb1679af997d4a7eb370280285e7c57d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That comment was inappropriate. Would the Minister please address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711f5da572734a49b287dbb589b492c2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The bill lies before the select committee. I repeat that it is not impounded money. It is not confiscated money. It is a transfer from one organisation to another\u2014an entity that will have the M\u0101ori Trustee as its chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f478567a7801471ebc59f33e2361f4e7\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm evidence presented to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee yesterday that none of the 2,000 attendees at the consultation hui on the M\u0101ori Trustee Bill were told of any intention to expropriate the $35 million of general purposes fund money, but rather were only asked whether they supported general reform of the trustee and the principle of having a development fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc820fdee64453ba13ceaa9edf41db5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: There was a consultation process, and the overwhelming response was that such reform and the creation of an entity with at least $35 million would be a boon for the iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9ffcdf859140f9bc2ec2be0ca5ffdc\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the transcript of yesterday\u2019s select committee, where the M\u0101ori Trustee said he did not support the movement of $35 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66a30b445d44d9a9501a4c5d267841f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243f4d0dea6a844359d2b0c54a257535a\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Access\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e50ec83c1ce1474283cb12ab9150334c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: How is the Government improving young people\u2019s access to health services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00220ab34786815a4a259fd7ea03ecff1a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ab34786815a4a259fd7ea03ecff1a3d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As part of the Budget this year, over the next 3 years more than 40,000 secondary students will gain better access to health services. Over 4 years, $17.2 million will go towards health services for young people based at all decile 1 to decile 3 secondary schools, teen parent units, and alternative education facilities. That adds to the Labour-led Government\u2019s commitment to delivering accessible primary health care to all New Zealanders, wherever they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf6a248ef3f6449c9e38f0cecb4f85f9\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of the Government\u2019s delivering health care at school, and what sorts of services can young people and their parents expect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8b9f76c5b24e02beb3e7c04b33eb2d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: We know that it works much better to bring health services to where young people are, rather than just hoping they will go to existing services when they need to. We know that healthy students are much more likely to learn. School-based services will differ depending on each school\u2019s need, but are expected to be nurse-led and may include regular general practitioner clinics. These services will be developed in consultation with the school, the primary health organisation, and the district health board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ace26d0c5cbe4c2da1e5e055f8fe3603\u0022\u003ERest Homes\u2014Standard of Care\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0e3b48957d457b820d7cb62deaaff0\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What are the names of the five rest homes that he believes are potentially in the same league as Belhaven Rest Home in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d7eeed84584f91a88a00e269c7dafb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d7eeed84584f91a88a00e269c7dafb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make it clear that at no time did I suggest that there are other rest homes \u201Cin the same league\u201D as Belhaven Rest Home, potentially or otherwise. The level of care of, and the lack of respect given to, residents at the Belhaven Rest Home were absolutely unacceptable. That is why the Ministry of Health and the district health board moved quickly to shut it down. Failing to meet basic standards of care in any rest home will result in strong and appropriate action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e49c7de7724a469a3afd9f55945992\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister not take action now to introduce spot auditing and a comprehensive review of Labour\u2019s failing auditing processes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279390887c540485e9e4b8fd240657d4d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: In the first instance, I have already asked for such a review and have proposals under way. In the second instance, I draw the House\u2019s attention to National\u2019s discussion paper on aged residential care, where the only real proposal it makes about auditing is to lower compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226516bf48c4874a71a5adfaa3ffb9a2dd\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80df2ae27ee49b4b08be9f619ec956d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50e5fed9a4042d493b806c35bbeab7a\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: How long after receiving the complaint about Belhaven Rest Home did the Ministry of Health act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e70f3acf7d94e8cad14bc92d90fba73\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Ministry of Health acted immediately and its officials were at the rest home within hours of the ministry receiving the complaint. Failure to treat our elderly with the respect and care that they deserve will not be tolerated. I encourage those who have complaints about the care that they or their loved ones have received to contact the Ministry of Health on 0800 113 813. We will not sit idly by when there are serious failures, and those responsible will be held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7b87d0a30c748f2a005b106681d801a\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: What action is being taken to ensure that basic standards of cleanliness, hygiene, and food safety are maintained for residents, given that rest home managers are always advised in advance of planned audits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b0d556f88e4271b0cc1d496103a1dc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: District health boards currently contract a range of assessment companies, which undertake thorough audits according to agreed specifications. Those auditors themselves are currently under an assessment regime whereby they are reviewed for effectiveness by the district health boards and the Ministry of Health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0e6cf2cb604a12a408af344038a6a8\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: How widespread does the Minister think this problem of the safety of residents of rest homes is, and how has he come to his conclusions about residents\u2019 safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ad528958834ddf96c1812c7b3fa59c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important to state firstly that although the Government has zero tolerance of elder abuse, we believe that in most cases rest home care facilities are appropriate and well managed. I think it is unfortunate if the member or anyone else is attempting to spread by innuendo any material that would undermine legitimate and well-run businesses. It is also very important that we ensure that the auditing processes are appropriate, and I have already said to the member that I have a review under way on that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e2be40ee7d4e949f5e783c8a2dbad0\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports from the Ministry of Health of any concerns that it has about the safety of rest home residents; if so, what do those reports say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022892aa06939984b83ad35ab93463623e0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; as I have said publicly, I have asked the ministry for a full report on any concerns that it may have about rest homes. The point I made earlier is that it is not true to say that I have said that five other rest homes are in the same league as Belhaven Rest Home. I am advised that there are no other rest homes about which similar reports have been received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d5dde776f0a463f802836477cec4212\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Why, after 9 long years of this Labour Government, are we seeing such obvious failures in the Government\u2019s auditing system, despite growth in Labour\u2019s audit bureaucracy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597beab5246c4307a7bf06e450b5ccfc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s last comment begins to chime rather well with the complaint in her party\u2019s discussion document about compliance costs. Can the member please come clean and tell the House whether she is asking for tougher auditing standards, or for weaker auditing standards as is called for in National\u2019s elder care paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table an extract from National\u2019s elder care discussion document, where the party calls for a reduction\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022381bff08c8b64fca80a7957cd871c2d5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8042f76fc6c404e95dcdce33ba557e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8042f76fc6c404e95dcdce33ba557e2\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am wondering whether you could assist me. The issue that I would like you to have a look at is that, some time ago, the Chief Executive of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri personally approached the clerk of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014he did not go through the select committee itself\u2014to ask the select committee to request that the M\u0101ori Trustee make a submission to the select committee. I am not sure why that was, but he approached the clerk of the select committee to ask the select committee to request the M\u0101ori Trustee to make a submission to it. I wonder whether you could have a wee look at that issue to see whether there was any impropriety. I think there was. I think the M\u0101ori Trustee was not too keen on making\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222690d4f511f04e6d85b0f0a104c05c65\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I have got the point. I am happy to look at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e89bdeed9c83412e80e73970491caf43\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221adf39cf6274483e8df5399e99108443\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022349c359392394d2dbc7d04b7ce2244fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022349c359392394d2dbc7d04b7ce2244fd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Acting Minister of Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Tariff Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 4), the Radiocommunications Amendment Bill (No 5), the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Electricity Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. The bills amend New Zealand\u2019s domestic legislation so that the free-trade agreement between the Government of New Zealand and the Government of the People\u2019s Republic of China can come into force on 1 October 2008. Securing this comprehensive free-trade agreement was a major achievement for New Zealand and this Labour-led Government. It took more than 3 years and 15 rounds of negotiations to reach the deal. The agreement liberalises and facilitates trade in goods and services and in investment, removes barriers to trade, and promotes cooperation in a broad range of economic areas between New Zealand and China, our third-largest individual trading partner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EInitial tariff cuts will take place when the agreement comes into force. This will result in the immediate elimination of tariffs on over $200 million worth of current New Zealand exports to China. Tariffs on 96 percent of our exports to China will be phased out by 2017. The removal of tariffs and other obstacles to trade will give our businesses a competitive head start in the fastest-growing economy in the world. New Zealand exports to China will now total $2 billion a year and will continue to grow. That will create opportunities for a better standard of living and more jobs for New Zealanders. The agreement contains measures to make it easier to do business by improving customs procedures, and by enhancing the cooperation between officials in technical areas. It also has rules to counter unfair trade. It aims to reduce barriers to trade and services between the two countries and to provide additional protection for investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill enables the agreement to be brought into force. The Tariff Act 1988 will be amended so that tariff cuts can be applied. Amendments to the Customs and Excise Act 1996 will create a system for issuing certificates of origin for goods exported from New Zealand to China, to ensure our exports benefits from preferential tariffs. Amendments to the Fair Trading Act 1986, the Electricity Act 1992, and the Radiocommunications Act 1989 will mean that conformity of agreement on electrical and electronic equipment can be put into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is the first developed country to seize the opportunity of negotiating and concluding an agreement with China. Being first will give New Zealand, for a time, a unique competitive advantage. This will better enable us to strengthen existing commercial relationships and to create new ones. New Zealand businesses are already leveraging off the deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAs the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee noted in its report back to the House on the treaties and the bill, the agreement is important because it contributes to New Zealand\u2019s strategic trade objectives, including the objective of broadening and deepening relationships in Asia. The agreement is also significant in the wider international trade context. It goes towards New Zealand\u2019s goal to strengthen economic integration in the Asia-Pacific region, and is being seen internationally as a pointer to enhance cooperation in our region. New opportunities for free-trade agreements are being explored with Korea, Japan, and India, and they have gained some momentum from the success of completing the China free-trade agreement. The Government\u2019s confidence in the agreement is shared by a wide range of New Zealand businesses and industry groups, which have publicly welcomed the successful negotiations of the agreement and are looking forward to its enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the hard work and skill of the negotiating team, led by David Walker of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I acknowledge the role played by the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, and Minister of Trade, Phil Goff, in intervening to support the negotiations when required. I thank members of the Opposition for their support with this agreement. The New Zealand - China free-trade agreement has huge economic and strategic significance for New Zealand. The enactment of these bills will allow New Zealand businesses to begin benefiting from tariff cuts, and from the trade facilitating measures contained in the agreement, from 1 October 2008. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022e84fb8c0cdaa420097b37312720e13ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e84fb8c0cdaa420097b37312720e13ad\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is the final legislative stage of a process to mark what I think a number of people have rightly called a very historic moment in terms of New Zealand\u2019s chequered trading history, and, because I think it is appropriate to use this occasion to go back to first principles, I want not to dive into the detail of this agreement but just to rehearse the broad argument that underlies this whole initiative. Before doing so I will comment on the fact that although we now accept there is a large measure of consensus in New Zealand politics on international trade issues, this agreement marks a remarkable change from when I first became involved in such politics well over a quarter of a century ago. At that time international trade issues were one of the most divisive issues in New Zealand politics, and any move to open up New Zealand to import competition raised issues of the greatest sensitivity. For reasons we all understood at the time, because New Zealand had developed an industrial model that was highly dependent on very high levels of protection, I think it meant that no New Zealand negotiators of the past could likely enter into any international trade agreements with their front foot forward, because of the sensitivities of a political nature at home. So we have travelled quite a way; I happen to hold the view that this is the path we will eventually have to take on climate change, but we are well removed from that point at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBut the basic infrastructure of the argument, although very important, I think is very simple. It is this: at the moment New Zealand\u2019s trajectory, in my opinion and the opinion of my party, is not sustainable. We are losing\u2014leaching\u2014people. The most worrying statistic that I have in my head, when I think of the 80,000 people who left the country last year, is that 80 percent of them\u2014four out of five\u2014were under the age of 40. And they are moving abroad in their legions. I regret to say that I see, still, the likelihood of that accelerating until we can actually address the root of the problem, because the opportunities for highly skilled and semi-skilled New Zealanders now outstrip those opportunities available to them in our own country. So the key to this is to improve the functioning of the economy; to increase the productivity growth rate, which is the key to higher real wages; and to make New Zealand once again a dynamic place so that our young people can see a future for themselves in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ECentral to that process is the promotion of a greater export orientation of New Zealand. A trade agreement is simply an agreement about opportunity. We will not intrinsically earn a dollar from the Chinese free-trade agreement unless the opportunities are translated into specific action by individual New Zealand companies and entrepreneurs, and backed by all the agencies that the Government has to bring to bear to help New Zealanders take advantage of these opportunities. Nevertheless, the agreement is absolutely a central part of that equation, and I think that is the reason why we are\u2014I would use the argument\u2014celebrating today the final passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThis agreement is fundamentally important for New Zealand simply because of the scale of the issue; it is about gaining access literally to a quarter of mankind. And as I and others have commented in recent days, for a country that has historically had a massive political problem in finding markets for its exports, this is absolutely a paradigm shift. It is absolutely a change of major significance for this country, and its implications will come through over the next 20 years, just as they did over the long term in respect of the other landmark trade agreement that New Zealand has in its own free-trade area with Australia\u2014the CER agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo that is the broad economic picture. It is not just about agriculture; it is also about the new economy that is emerging in New Zealand. It is very important we do not see here a false dichotomy set up between the traditionally great strengths of New Zealand and the emerging companies that I think so many members are so proud of, such as the examples given yesterday by my colleague Mr Tremain of the Bay, around the Napier-Hastings area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBut let me take a couple of examples to illustrate the point, and instead of using general arguments I will use some highly specific arguments. I will talk about a leading industry of exported goods\u2014dairy\u2014and then I will take the clothing industry, as an example. The dairy industry story I think is well known to members. We are seeing a situation where the average compound rate of growth\u2014the average annual rate of growth\u2014of dairy consumption in China is an astonishing 30 percent. Any number that increases by a compound rate of 30 percent is doubling in less than 3 years, obviously. But this is not all about imports, because Chinese dairy production is also growing at a stellar rate. I forget the figure, since I am speaking here without notes, but from memory the expansion in the last 5 years has been equal to the entire New Zealand dairy production. We must never forget this central fact about dairy: although we are a huge player internationally, with something over 40 percent of total world trade\u2014and it is astonishing for a country of our size to have 40 percent of world trade in anything\u2014we are still only around 2 to 2.5 percent of world production. So the paradox here is that New Zealand is not very large in world dairy terms in respect of production but it is massive in respect of world trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo this incredible, stellar rate of growth of dairy consumption in China is stimulating not only domestic growth but also a very rapid increase in imports, of which New Zealand, being the leading exporter of dairy products in the world, is the principal beneficiary. That is underwriting wealth creation, jobs, and export income for our future. By the way, this does not mean there is any particular reason to believe that the end of adjustment difficulties for the dairy industry has been seen in New Zealand. I think it means\u2014and most people who deeply understand the dairy regime understand this\u2014that we are moving to a higher equilibrium price in world dairy, but there will still be New Zealanders in the future who will lose their shirts over it. There will still be marked fluctuations around that higher equilibrium world dairy price and, unfortunately, since it is immediately capitalised into land values, some people will go in at the wrong time with far too high a gearing and still suffer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBut looking at it from an overall, national New Zealand perspective, this agreement underwrites an incredibly bright future for New Zealand. The debate that agriculture is a sunset industry is dead in this country. Agriculture will play just as vital a part in New Zealand\u2019s future as it has done in our past, and this signal agreement will underwrite that future to a very considerable extent. For those members who think that we have seen the last of dairy expansion, I say they should just reflect on this: even given these high growth rates, dairy consumption in China is of the order of 12 kilograms per head. Well, in Europe it is 250 kilograms per head, and in Japan it is around 80 kilograms per head, so we will still see a remarkable growth for the future. We are well positioned; we are better positioned than any other country to take this up, in terms of both our intrinsic strengths and the competitive edge that we now have into this giant, emerging consumer market. Yesterday we talked about the fact that Fonterra has already cashed up on this by announcing a $300 million expansion with Chinese companies, to take advantage of the agreement even before it has come into effect. So that is a very positive example. That is my dairy example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe other example I will give the House is less well known, and it is the Icebreaker example. I had the privilege of being briefed by its managing director, Jeremy Moon, in Beijing when I went there with the very large delegation for the signing of the agreement. Here we have a company that is in a sector that I believe every New Zealander, bar the most optimistic few, thought a liberalisation of our import regime would mean the end of\u2014and understandably so, because the clothing and textile industry was deeply reliant on the highest levels of protection. In 1980, prior to the signing of the CER agreement, essentially its exports were zero, and it has made an adjustment that at times has obviously been quite painful for a number of the companies that were positioned in the wrong area of the market. New Zealand was never going to get rich by trying to compete on a pure labour-wage cost basis with countries like China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo an adjustment has taken place, and now we can see companies emerging out of that adjustment process with an entirely different business model. I recall very clearly the managing director telling me that it had taken him, I think, from memory, 6 years to reach the very modest figure of $1 million in sales and another 5 years to reach $100 million. That is all done by this globalisation model. The design is done here, and it is, as everyone knows, outstanding design. The product is a very expensive, high-quality product that uses New Zealand merino wool. The company then uses factories in Shanghai, which the managing director described to me as having an atmosphere more akin to that of a university campus. Anyone who read the Listener article on its visit to Shanghai will know that this production model is a million miles removed from a sweated labour arrangement. So those are two practical examples, and I think that they should give New Zealand a great deal of confidence in our exporting future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffb3a4b80f0f45a79a2ce3ede2fe49aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffb3a4b80f0f45a79a2ce3ede2fe49aa\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E As I have done previously, I certainly commend the contribution of the previous speaker, and not only his work on the free-trade agreement itself but also his contribution to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. As I have done on previous occasions, I also acknowledge the contributions of all the members of the select committee. Obviously, I particularly want to acknowledge the excellent role of the Hon Phil Goff, that of our Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, and also that of the team of negotiators and advisers, some of whom were represented in this Parliament yesterday and last night during the Committee stage of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAs the Acting Minister of Trade, the Hon Annette King, said, securing this comprehensive free-trade agreement is indeed a major achievement for our country. It took more than 3 years and 15 rounds of negotiations to reach the deal. As we are aware, the agreement liberalises and facilitates trade in goods and services and facilitates investment. It removes barriers to trade and promotes cooperation in a broad range of economic areas between New Zealand and China, which is our third-largest individual trading partner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to quote, if I may, from the report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which, of course, I chair. We said in our report to the Parliament: \u201CWe believe that this agreement is a major event in New Zealand\u2019s history and fundamental to the future economic wellbeing of this country. The main values for New Zealand in entering into the FTA and associated instruments are as follows \u2026 increased access for New Zealand trade and investment, which will contribute to growth, jobs, and higher living standards \u2026 the framework the FTA establishes for resolving trade and investment issues that may arise in the future \u2026 the framework established by the Memorandum of Understanding and the Environment Cooperation Agreement for discussing and cooperating on labour and environment issues\u201D. I think that is a particularly important point, and I acknowledge the contribution of the Council of Trade Unions, other unions, and other organisations in terms of that very important specific issue. The report goes on to say the value for New Zealand is also in \u201Cthe support the treaties give to New Zealand\u2019s objective of broadening and deepening relations in Asia and with China in particular \u2026 the support the FTA gives to New Zealand\u2019s wider trade policy interests in strengthening economic integration in the Asia-Pacific and multilaterally \u2026[and] the FTA\u2019s assistance in raising the commercial profile of New Zealand companies in China.\u201D Our report, obviously, emphasises and illustrates those particular points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI do not want to spend much longer on my contribution to this particular reading of the legislation, but I just make the point and emphasise yet again that before this free-trade agreement with China was signed our exporters faced extra costs when trying to sell their products and services. They faced tariffs of up to 20 percent, making it harder for them to make money and, of course, to feed that money into our economy. Chinese tariffs on New Zealand products cost exporters almost $120 million a year. On the other hand, conversely, Chinese exporters faced very few tariffs when they sold their products to New Zealand. The free-trade agreement will help to address that imbalance by reducing, and in many cases eliminating, tariffs, so that New Zealand goods will be able to enter China on a more even playing field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI make the point that when it is easy for our Kiwi companies to do business, we all benefit. Companies can expand, hire more staff, develop new products, and grow our economy. And of course I make the point that the support for this free-trade agreement has come from a wide cross-section of groups, including the Council of Trade Unions, the Dairy Companies Association of New Zealand, Federated Farmers, Air New Zealand, Fonterra, the Hospitality Standards Institute, Ng\u0101i Tahu, Meat and Wool New Zealand, the National Distribution Union, Zespri, Business New Zealand, the Seafood Industry Council, and the Wellington Chamber of Commerce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I acknowledge\u2014and I have acknowledged in previous contributions on this issue to this House\u2014there is a counter point of view, and I acknowledge it was reflected also in the submissions to the select committee. Hopefully the select committee report has tried to comprehensively acknowledge, if you like, some of the cross-section of concerns that were raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI quoted from the Prime Minister in my contribution to the debate on this legislation in the Committee of the whole House, and I will just repeat that quote in conclusion. I think it is a very apt and appropriate quote, which sums up the issue very well: \u201CThe agreement sets a high standard. It is a model for how two trading partners, disparate in size but complementary in the products and services they offer, can take a trading relationship to a new level.\u201D There are certainly challenges. No one doubts that there are challenges in taking that relationship to a new level, but I think that with the skill and innovation of our whole country and the major players in our economy across the board there are huge opportunities under this agreement in terms of our relationship with China. I certainly believe that history will record that this is one of the major achievements of the current Government. But I also acknowledge the very broad multiparty support we have in terms of the legislation and the agreement. I congratulate all those who were involved, and I hope we will now seize the opportunity that this free-trade agreement gives to our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022f65bc36860214d5bb45c3f210f4a9a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f65bc36860214d5bb45c3f210f4a9a17\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Today we are passing into law legislation relating to the China free-trade agreement. I predict the legislation will be passed into law today by literally an overwhelming majority. There is a very, very good reason why this is the case, and it is fundamentally that\u2014and I say this, in fact, to the three smaller parties that are opposing this bill\u2014fair trade is free trade. I know this will come as a bit of a shock to those parties, but the reason is simple, actually\u2014nations should concentrate on what they do best. New Zealand has a world advantage in agricultural products. Obviously we want to develop our economy, but at this point in time, and for some years to come, that is our fundamental advantage\u2014and I say that to the M\u0101ori Party. One has only to work out where our economy grows best to know that it is in agriculture. Indeed, for the last 50 years it has been quite remarkable just how agriculture has sustained and retained its share of exports. We gain when other countries lower their export barriers. That could hardly be contradicted by anyone in this House, I would have thought. Even those with a modicum of economic understanding, and even those who will worry about the position of lower-paid people, would see, surely, the advantage in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EConversely, looking at it from the other point of view, every New Zealand consumer benefits when the cost of the things that he or she can buy reduces, and that will be the case in a wide range of goods, particularly clothing and other items. That has been one of the great gains of the reforms of the last two decades. China clearly has a comparative advantage in the production of all sorts of electronic goods, clothing, and so forth. It is not called \u201Cthe factory of the world\u201D for no reason; it is called that because it is the best at that production. New Zealand gains from that when we can buy goods from China at the lowest possible price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI know the argument put up by other parties is that we have to be careful about this, there have to be transition arrangements, and so forth. I have to ask those parties whether they really believe that a 10 percent tariff actually saves any jobs at all in New Zealand. Ten percent is the maximum tariff in New Zealand. If a company can survive only on the basis of a 10 percent tariff, then I would suggest to members that it is a company that is quickly going to go out of business in any event. But, in truth, the lesson we are supposed to draw is to concentrate where we have skills and expertise. That is exactly the point about Icebreaker. You know, China can produce a billion T-shirts for $1, but it cannot produce high-fashion Italian wear that people are willing to pay thousands of dollars a suit for\u2014or, for that matter, $1,200 for a yellow jacket. That is where areas of expertise are built in countries that go for their comparative advantage. Surely Italy is the object lesson for us in terms of clothing, not China\u2019s billion T-shirts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI have to say to those parties that are resistant to the idea of free trade that there is a vast body of research\u2014not just opinion; actual, proven research\u2014that demonstrates the fundamental importance of the proposition that fair trade is free trade, as was very carefully pointed out by my colleague John Hayes yesterday. That is why virtually every country has signed up to the World Trade Organization. That is why the European Union has been so successful. The European Union has gained immensely by the elimination\u2014not just the reduction\u2014of all tariffs between its parties. That is why European nations are clamouring to get in; that is why Turkey is clamouring to get in. I can tell members many nations in the Middle East also ultimately want to join the European Union. They want to do so because they want to join a successful trading area where there are no barriers. And, closer to home, who could possibly doubt that the New Zealand - Australia free-trade agreement has not been a great success? It has been, and much of our contemporary prosperity is built on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis agreement is profoundly important because the third-largest economy in the world has made a strategic decision\u2014not obviously just about New Zealand, but about how it sees the trading environment globally\u2014to enter into a free-trade agreement with New Zealand. It is a full and total agreement. It is a strange irony that New Zealand First comes along to say: \u201COh well, we would quite like to support the agreement. If only it had been faster.\u201D I would have to say to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224419ec20ef3042d1b948f3fe716f9c46\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238348156ba7f4563900882c00d1bb4f7\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Brown that his leader said that. That is exactly what he said, and the remarkable thing is he might be right\u2014if it was faster, it would be better. But in truth 10 years is a short period of time, and I think we know that New Zealand First is not supporting the agreement for reasons other than the speed in which it is being implemented. It has its own little constituency, which frankly does not understand the proposition put forward by John Hayes yesterday\u2014that fair trade is free trade. Sometimes political parties should take the time and trouble to explain why that is so; not just say that if public opinion or a section of it is resistant to free trade, then we should simply go with that opinion. It is always easy to identify the one company that might suffer; it is much harder to identify that every single consumer in New Zealand benefits by the reduced cost of clothing products or whiteware. We only have to look at the growth rates in New Zealand from the 1960s and 1970s, and the step change that occurred in the opening up of the economy from the 1980s onwards, to see that benefit to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI take this point in time to congratulate the Government on this legislation. I have to say that when the history of the 9-year Labour Government from 1999 to 2008 is written up by the historians, they will say this agreement was the Government\u2019s most significant economic venture. There were other things they could have done, but, of the things they did, this was the most significant. To that extent, both the Government and the officials\u2014who worked exceptionally hard\u2014need to be congratulated on the agreement. That is why National is supporting the legislation. Of course, we say to ACT, it is the only thing the Government has done that has boosted the economy. There were many other things it could have done as well, but it failed to do them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAs New Zealand looks forward over the next decade, I predict it is going to gain huge benefits\u2014far, far greater than the $300 million projected by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Within 5 years\u2014as indeed Mr Groser, who has a deeper understanding on these issues than anyone in this Parliament, has said\u2014China will become the leading export market for New Zealand. One of the reasons\u2014not the only reason\u2014for that will be this agreement. New Zealand\u2019s prosperity across the board will benefit. I say to the smaller parties that no New Zealand company will be disadvantaged by this agreement, because a 10 percent tariff does not actually protect industry at all. This is an agreement where fundamentally and absolutely there are gains right across the board for New Zealand, and we should be applauding this day when New Zealand has taken a strategic decision and allowed China to pave the way for opening free trade in the Asia-Pacific region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b45aef3207b049b8af634a0e1e642dab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b45aef3207b049b8af634a0e1e642dab\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First has taken a particular interest in this issue, although we were not on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee that addressed the agreement. We sat here yesterday\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aff8ac75c8047b48dc5e557303514b7\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but there has been a long-held convention in the House that members do not interject from benches directly opposite a member when he or she is speaking. I think Mr Hide is being rather impolite to Mr Brown. He should let him get on with his speech without barracking him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a296c2e8f94c3285cb9876bf49a268\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid that my colleague the Hon Harry Duynhoven is quite wrong. Members are entitled to interject, as long as the interjections are rare, reasonable, and witty. I think we would agree that I covered all three requirements. I am certainly allowed to interject from the seat that I have been allocated. Unlike Mr Harry Duynhoven, I do not sit way up the back of the Chamber and have to move forward to interject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e040aaee6264a83bb25c316065c0c69\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Hide. I refer Mr Hide to Speaker\u2019s ruling 59/3. When the cross benches are in close proximity to each other, it is not in order to interject because it muffles the microphone of the other speaker. Mr Duynhoven is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b2a86c79a84af399b7e18fe22def57\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would it be acceptable, then, if I moved some distance away from Mr Peter Brown and heckled rare\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95001b3f6254e53917dde9fef72d47d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa67850b43af47cfb3c5349575b952ea\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Now a member is interjecting on a point of order. I make my point. You are trying to shut me down for doing it by the rules, and you let this guy, just because you depend on his vote, interject on a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ee5eabf636b4c92ab9e2ded48faf897\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, you know better than that. You nearly got a yellow card; I know you have a yellow jacket. The member cannot interject from that seat because he is too close to Mr Brown. If he wants to move somewhere else, out of the cross benches, then I will permit it, provided that the interjections are rare, reasonable, and relevant. The member can consider himself lucky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699e2776025d45cd87d26434e343a26d\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened very carefully to your explanation as to why the interjection was not appropriate. The ruling is that we do not interject from the cross benches because of their close proximity, which causes muffling of the microphones. I would like respectfully to point out that the system has been completely revised in the last couple of weeks\u2014the whole microphone system has changed\u2014so the basis of that ruling seems to be removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229042d4bae64c4c1198a2dc98deb3a45c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I advise the member that although the system might look impressive, it is not yet operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dbad7aa2d284a20a7f82d8bf184eb8c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I thought they were heaters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228430448f12604168aafe46044af8550e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: And that member thinks he will be fit to govern this country? Goodness me! I do not mind interjections from Mr Hide in the least, provided they stick to the rules that he outlined: rare, reasonable, and witty. His interjections thus far have been disqualified on all three counts. They were not rare, reasonable, or witty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First sat here for some hours yesterday listening totally to Opposition members, thinking that they would put forward a worthwhile case for this free-trade agreement to be accepted. But we heard rather naive and contradictory statements. We heard from Mr Groser, who is meant to be an expert on these things. At one point he told us it took years to negotiate; the Minister told us it took 3 years and 15 rounds. On his very next call, Mr Groser said that the Chinese knocked on New Zealand\u2019s door and said, \u201CWould you like to sell your goods in the largest market in the world?\u201D. Those were pretty much the exact words he used. Are those the utterances of a top-notch negotiator? Or are they the utterances of a rather confused backbench MP? That is putting it as politely as I can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMr Groser told us about harmonising electrical equipment, noting that the standards are different in China. He said that when one harmonises such equipment, usually one nation adopts the standards of another. The implication was that the Chinese, from a country with a population of 1.3 billion, would change their electrical standards to those of New Zealand. That is arrant nonsense. We can at this point in time get the Chinese to manufacture to our standards any electrical equipment we would like. They would do it willingly for any piece of equipment. In fact, I suggest that if our manufacturers wanted to move offshore and into China, employing Chinese labour to manufacture equipment for us and for anywhere else, that would be allowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns New Zealand First has is the working conditions of the Chinese people who manufacture these goods\u2014the humanitarian concerns, if you like. I heard Mr Groser touch on it yesterday, but he did not go into any depth. Many people in China work for very, very low wages\u2014exceedingly low wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f22ce53661d4a039e3a2a64a78cb12a\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: So what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb00e0a4af943afb7bd4f945c298752\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hayes says \u201CSo what?\u201D. They work long hours. They start working at a young age, and work into old age. They have very poor working conditions, and little or no commitment from their employers. Some employers might be a little more committed to their staff, but in many cases there is little or no commitment from the Chinese employer in China. And we want to sign an agreement with people who allow that sort of thing in their country? We would not allow it here, yet we are prepared to sign a free-trade agreement and say \u201CBring it in. We will remove the tariffs.\u201D As Wayne Mapp has just outlined, there are minimal tariffs on Chinese imports into this country. We want to remove that and say \u201CFlood it in here; we will buy whatever we can.\u201D, on the basis of the one single reason I have heard from the National Party people, which is that it will make it cheaper for us to buy Chinese goods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWayne Mapp said that this sort of agreement is similar to the European Union type of agreement. But the European Union started off as the European Economic Community. It might have escaped Mr Mapp\u2019s attention, but those countries largely\u2014there are some exceptions now\u2014share the same land mass. When they formed the European Economic Community they realised that they could take away all the border controls between countries that are situated on the same land mass, and let the road traffic and freight move freely from one country to another. Some of those countries have ever-changing borders. Hungary is one country that has had an ever-changing border for hundreds of years. If one looks at the border of Hungary, one sees that it has changed on a very regular basis. Sometimes the country increases in size, and sometimes it shrinks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere was good reason for the European Economic Community to remove tariffs and to free up trade. It is sound common sense. We would not dream\u2014maybe some members on that side of the House would\u2014of dividing this country in half and saying that we will have border controls between this half of the country and the other half. The European Union is a much bigger area than New Zealand. It made plenty of sense to take away all the border controls and put the border controls around the outside of the European Economic Community. Of course, the countries have now become the European Union and they share a common currency. Is that where Mr Mapp wants to go with this free-trade agreement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI hope the National members are correct and that this agreement will lead to more jobs, more exports, and whatever. I hope they are right in their assertion, but I doubt it. I think that we have settled for second best, and this is backed up by some of the comments in the Exporter magazine. Let me read the opening comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffff612aa3e40fdb528ff6b0beb36d0\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: You did it yesterday. Don\u2019t do it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b5f7096d254c399d237152e74da27c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing seems to sink in to Mr Hayes. The member has a one-track mind. He did not even know that the speakers above were not working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe article states: \u201CFor some exporters, New Zealand\u2019s free trade agreement (FTA) with China is a decisive triumph, laying a clear pipeline for future revenues. For other China old hands, the FTA\u2019s future benefits remain illusory, considering the sheer cultural divide and business complexity China poses. Anecdotal evidence suggests Kiwi business owners are not rushing to the Middle Kingdom. Those already steeped in the Chinese market say the FTA with China should not be seen as a panacea for Kiwi exporters\u2019 aspirations to crack the Chinese market.\u201D There are also some comments by individual exporters. One said: \u201CI might be old-fashioned but I want some of our country left for our children/grandchildren. If they are going to eventually earn 50 cents an hour, then I guess I could also go to China and make my fortune now and stuff the rest. But NO.\u201D That exporter has the interests of this country and these people in sight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe have concerns about the segment in this legislation that allows Chinese people to come here on a working visa for a year. There is no reciprocal arrangement, at all. They can come here on a working visa with no reciprocal arrangement\u2014we do not agree with that. Further, it is a means of providing temporary entry for Chinese business visitors, installers, and servicers for up to 3 months in a calendar year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EAnd so it goes on. None of it is reciprocal. Mr Groser, in his opening address yesterday, said not to worry, that this will open the door for the New Zealand winegrower. He said we will sell more wine there. I have to tell the National members that the Chinese do not drink grape wine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed6410b52004156b6f45615cc67b05b\u0022\u003EHon Member.\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute nonsense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f620f2e50b4ce78e004195f52af111\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: They do not\u2014not in any quantities. They will sell it to their tourists, and they will buy it for that reason alone. This legislation will not solve the winegrower\u2019s problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First opposes this legislation but we do hope it is finally successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00220668319f585c4a8d9c501df97f34f860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220668319f585c4a8d9c501df97f34f860\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party rises to support this legislation because we favour free trade. We favour free trade in goods, we favour free trade in services, and we favour free trade in that most valuable commodity of all\u2014a person\u2019s labour and ideas. Therefore, we favour this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe ACT party is totally perplexed by Mr Peter Brown\u2019s speech. On the one hand, the Minister of Foreign Affairs says that New Zealand First opposes this legislation, this free-trade deal with China, because it is not quick enough\u2014it will take 10 years. Then Mr Brown, the deputy leader of New Zealand First, comes to the House and says that New Zealand First opposes this legislation, full stop, because it is free trade. Well, where does New Zealand First stand on this? Maybe its members need to check with some of their funders about what Winston Peters is saying and square it with what Peter Brown is saying, because it is very, very clear that New Zealand First MPs do not know who their funders are, they do not know what has happened to the money, they do not know what the interests are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201715f6d8ec64de892aae528e462b977\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There was an inference of corruption in that comment\u2014a comment that that member makes about me in the House, because his courage matches the colour of his jacket. I suggest that he make it outside the House and feel the consequences. What he has said is totally out of order, and when you ask him to get back to the debate, I suggest that you also ask him to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3624ec8928b4f9d9c68ef658c1f38ef\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Jones. There was an instance there. I ask the member to come back to the debate, and I ask the member to be careful. I ask Mr Jones to be careful too, because he has challenged a man\u2019s courage. So it has gone both ways. Would the member please come to order and debate the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240e14a8214d0422eb39689955a21d687\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to debate the issue. I am not worried about Mr Dail Jones questioning my courage. I would be happy if he had the courage to ask Mr Peters a few basic questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022935a48b2d3524dd7aaec96fd3ac97344\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f60662e0254cabb70b942381c6c122\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014like what happened to the $100,000. That is what we would ask if we were talking about courage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f3977d72bc4434a071572d1d4cc9a7\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are now being challenged. You asked Mr Hide to get back to the point. You have the right to terminate the member\u2019s speech at this very moment, because he is challenging your ruling. I ask you to exercise your authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b049f98473a6458393325a7d1171711b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I will take that into consideration. The member has been warned once, and the next time I will have no option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227c46dd4a173483e8b690fdb801ac565\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. My issue with this legislation is New Zealand First\u2019s position on it, and that was what I was actually debating before I was so rudely and unforgivably challenged intellectually by Mr Dail Jones. My point was that there is an inconsistency between what the New Zealand First leader is saying and what Peter Brown is saying. That was my point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere is another irony in all of this in respect of New Zealand First: it is voting against this legislation. If we think about it for a second, we see that it is odd having a Minister of Foreign Affairs of New Zealand who is opposed to trade. Imagine being a Minister of Foreign Affairs and opposing trade! Well, Mr Peters got around this by saying that he did not oppose trade, but that he opposed the legislation because it did not go fast enough. But here we have Mr Brown coming into the House and saying that he opposes this legislation because he opposes trade with China. Well, which is it? Why is New Zealand First voting against this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI wish to draw another irony to members\u2019 attention, and I will do so in a most careful way\u2014in a very, very careful way\u2014because I would not want to stray, and I hope that I will be picked up if I do. The ACT party agrees with free trade in everything, bar one thing: political favours. We do not believe that political favours should be up for grabs. We think that men and women should be able to sell their ideas, their labour, their goods, and their services. But no politicians, no Governments, and no Ministers should be able to sell their policies, a Government favour, or a perk. That is where the trade stops. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe way we deal with that is that, yes, we have free trade, and we will watch for any whiff of a problem with trade of that nature, like an overseas person saying that he or she will do some trade with New Zealand and that he or she will put $100,000 in a lawyer\u2019s account. What did he put it in? It was not an account and it was not a trust; he just gave $100,000 to square a bill. That is trade. That is absolutely on the money. It was trade from an overseas person with New Zealand, because New Zealand was $100,000 better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat the overseas billionaire was buying was legal services. I agree that he should be able to do that. The problem was with the nature of the legal services being bought. Those legal services were being bought to try to dislodge an MP in this House, and to overturn the will of the people of Tauranga. That is what the trade of legal fees being paid from overseas was for, for which the trade internationally is perfectly legal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222512ae8a07fc43aab95a4f9a07200754\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened with interest to the two previous points of order and your two previous responses, and most notably to your final response that if it happened again you would have no option but to terminate the speech. I believe the time for that has arrived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac1215f86b94b92a385207e4a3c6bf2\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say that it might be the Labour Government\u2019s view that the time to terminate my speech in this House has come. But one would hope that a Minister, in trying to terminate an Opposition member\u2019s speech, would point to the Standing Order that I have breached that states that I have to stop talking in this House, because I am actually elected to speak on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ad6304e99c4af9bcf2490fd4ab0d59\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I thought that the member was speaking to the point of order rather than continuing with his speech. The particular point I was referring to, Mr Assistant Speaker, was the fact that you had previously warned the member not to stray from the substance of the legislation and, in particular, not to transfer into matters to do with party funding issues. In your last ruling on that matter, Mr Assistant Speaker, you said that if it happened again you would invoke the Standing Order that the member referred to earlier. Quite clearly, the member has gone back to the same material. Previously you have ruled that that was inappropriate, and I seek your advice as to what action you wish to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec4b691a3b1467e9ee087fff034d54f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say that I was not discussing party funding. If I were discussing party funding, then I would be out of order. But we have no lesser authority than Mr Peters and the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, saying that the $100,000 trade that the overseas billionaire paid to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a250498bb47e4fd1a9aa0f948ebaa2d5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I point the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 25/5: \u201CIt is not only the right, but the duty, of a member who can show that there has been anything in the nature of bribery or corruption on the part of other members to bring that matter before the House in the proper constitutional way, but a member must not make veiled suggestions during the course of debate.\u201D The member has been warned, and his speech is terminated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00228e6fe726fbf94a52a186517fa7576757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e6fe726fbf94a52a186517fa7576757\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you saying that the one speech the ACT party has on the China free-trade agreement legislation is terminated because this Labour Government does not like any references to be made to bribery or corruption, whether or not it is within the rules? I never made a reference to bribery or corruption; it was you who did so, Mr Assistant Speaker. But the speech gets terminated. Is that the message you are giving in this Parliament to the people of New Zealand\u2014that anyone who makes any reference to Winston Peters and $100,000 going to a lawyer will have his or her speech terminated? That is all I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab08d20152d0470492ac4dfdfd28168e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed3128e195b43a8af5b191bd86cb6e6\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52b90a21c6345d8bae65a1ada7881b0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Jones, I want\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f94295e589114cc5b53f9b32fe3666e1\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f48746c70d9442499efa7d5685e4c70\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Briefly, Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022267769b9190349479f0b108680fd0f67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022267769b9190349479f0b108680fd0f67\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, no one would have had any problem if the member had been speaking to the China - New Zealand free-trade agreement legislation. Clearly, he was not. That is why, ultimately, you had to make the decision on the third warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec5a48fb18646c1a0ee0a93adb82f01\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I would also like to point out to the member Speakers\u2019 ruling 44/4: \u201CMembers must confine their remarks to the bill before the House and cannot make irrelevant matters relevant by suggesting they ought to be included in the bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3b6c4ca9ef74b19b1f3e6f9d5e1a7ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3b6c4ca9ef74b19b1f3e6f9d5e1a7ce\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Frankly, I think your ruling has been a bit harsh in this instance. Although Mr Hide\u2019s comments transgressed a number of things, he did connect those comments to the free-trade agreement. I note also that the comments were not objected to by the New Zealand First Party, and that it took a Minister of the Government to object. I think that the Minister of the Government should think very carefully when he seeks to have speeches by Opposition members terminated, essentially at his pleasure. I ask you, Mr Assistant Speaker, to review your ruling. I appreciate that it would obviously be in the nature of a final warning at this point, but I think the penalty was excessive, in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e77bc242356d4ea5b386d1a20bb7963f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you very much for your consideration, Dr Mapp. I had considered the matter carefully. Mr Hide had been warned a number of times. To me\u2014and I have made the decision\u2014there were veiled suggestions during the course of the debate that there was something other than what there was. So I am going to stick with my decision; the member\u2019s speech is terminated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00224fd61c097b4b477a8887bacc2dff3f00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fd61c097b4b477a8887bacc2dff3f00\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I consider this to be very serious in our Parliament, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014very serious. I would like you to tell the House what I said that caused you to terminate my speech\u2014the exact words\u2014because the Minister who complained never said or implied what those words were. I do not believe that I have breached any Standing Order in what I was saying, and you, Mr Assistant Speaker, cannot point to the words of the Standing Order that I breached.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022a60ff05ac7b0441a9f1294ecb7b73eea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a60ff05ac7b0441a9f1294ecb7b73eea\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, it is well known on the part of those who have actually sat in your Chair\u2014and there was a time when I did, as well\u2014that the member is now trifling with the Chair. At this point, it would be quite customary for the member to be named, and, if he persisted, to be expelled from the House. That is the proper way of dealing with disorder in this House; otherwise the matter becomes totally unsatisfactory and everything falls out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a86d94492e40899a4e34dc1651732e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have made my decision, based on Speaker\u2019s ruling 25/5. I will read it again for the benefit of members: \u201CIt is not only the right, but the duty, of a member who can show that there has been anything in the nature of bribery or corruption on the part of other members to bring that matter before the House in the proper constitutional way,\u201D\u2014the member is perfectly entitled to do that in the proper constitutional way\u2014\u201Cbut a member must not make veiled suggestions during the course of debate.\u201D As far as I am concerned, veiled suggestions were made during the course of the debate. I have been very tolerant on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5f53e73a4c14744a4814f71df1280d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5f53e73a4c14744a4814f71df1280d5\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E This trade agreement between New Zealand and China fails to protect the sovereignty of the democratically elected Government of New Zealand, and it places significant restrictions on the future ability of the New Zealand Government and Parliament to pass regulations to protect the people and environment of Aotearoa New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere are many reasons why the New Zealand Government should not have signed this preferential trade agreement with China, not least of which is the fact that New Zealand signed this agreement while China was involved in the murderous oppression of the people of Tibet. It is also of grave concern that this agreement has no binding labour or environmental standards. The lower wages and standards in China will effectively be a non-tariff barrier to fair trade, giving corporations that pollute or pay inhumane wages a competitive advantage over those that do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EHowever, here I wish to focus on the investment provisions and expose the risks to our people, our environment, and our sovereignty. The investment chapter of the agreement, chapter 11, taken together with the annex defining expropriation, annex 13, effectively forms a bilateral investment treaty between our two countries. This bilateral investment treaty inhibits the ability of the two Governments to regulate the businesses of foreign investors without compensating those investors for the cost of those regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe investment treaty means that a Chinese corporation operating in New Zealand can sue the New Zealand Government if the Government changes regulations, resulting in a loss of value for that corporation. And if there is a dispute between a Chinese investor and the New Zealand Government as to whether the Government should compensate the investor, and to what extent, then the dispute is to be resolved in an international forum established under the auspices of the World Bank or the United Nations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe effect of this investment treaty will be to place a chill over the ability or willingness of the New Zealand Government and Parliament to regulate the business activities of Chinese corporations operating in New Zealand, for fear of facing binding claims for compensation in international tribunals. This will make it much harder for our Government to carry out its duty to protect and advance the well-being of the people and environment of Aotearoa New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EBilateral investment treaties have received an increasing amount of attention in the international law literature. This is for the simple reason that more and more bilateral investment treaties are being signed, and more and more cases are ending up in international courts or tribunals of one description or another. Corporations are suing Governments in international judicial hearings on a regular basis. In Canada, the University of Victoria\u2019s Faculty of Law has an investment treaty arbitration website that provides access to all publicly available investment treaty awards, and lists over 200 cases since 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt was long standard fare for treaties to protect corporations from expropriation; from the direct acquisition of a company by a Government without compensation. What is new is that now corporations are successfully suing Governments for what they call \u201Cindirect expropriation\u201D. Indirect expropriation is where a Government changes laws or regulations, or acts in some way that impacts on a corporation\u2019s activities, resulting in loss of profits and hence value for that corporation. In these cases the owner\u2019s title to an asset is protected but the value of that asset declines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand - China preferential trade deal contains two components that together constitute a bilateral investment treaty between New Zealand and China. Those are chapter 11 and annex 13. The core of chapter 11 is article 145, which, I imagine, almost none of the members of this House have read, except me. It says that the New Zealand Government cannot expropriate Chinese investors unless the expropriation is fully compensated, and vice versa. If there are any disputes between a Chinese investor and the New Zealand Government, the investor can seek redress at the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes or through the United Nations Commission on International Trade Law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ECentral to such disputes is the definition of \u201Cexpropriation\u201D. This definition has been of critical importance to bilateral investment disputes overseas. There have been several cases where arbitrators have deemed that measures taken to protect the environment have expropriated investors, and that is extremely and directly applicable to this treaty. For example, in the case of Metalclad v Mexico, an international trade tribunal ruled that Mexico had violated the North American free-trade agreement in preventing Metalclad Corporation from opening a hazardous waste treatment and disposal site in Mexico. The tribunal found that local government opposition to the project amounted to expropriation of the company\u2019s profits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EPublic protest against Metalclad\u2019s approval for the waste treatment led to local authorities investigating the potential environmental impacts of the treatment site. An environmental impact assessment revealed that the site was on top of an ecologically sensitive underground alluvial stream. As a result, the governor refused to allow Metalclad to operate the facility, and later declared it part of an ecological zone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EMetalclad claimed that this action effectively expropriated its future expected profits, and although it was awarded less than the $90 million in damages it sought, its claim was successful. There are more cases like this in international tribunals, and it is clear that measures taken by States to protect human health or the environment can be found by international arbitrators to be expropriation, resulting in large financial penalties. The key question is whether State action to regulate is considered a form of indirect expropriation. The definition of expropriation is addressed in annex 13, which I cannot imagine many other people here have read. This is really at the core of the agreement and what it might mean for the ability of the New Zealand Government to regulate without compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI will assess annex 13 from the perspective of its relationship to the ability of a State to regulate when such regulation results in the partial loss of value to a Chinese investor\u2019s asset. Annex 13 has five paragraphs. Paragraph 1 states: \u201CAn action or a series of actions by a Party cannot constitute an expropriation unless . . . it interferes with a property right\u201D. This is a simple test to meet. Most State actions would interfere with property investment when the State is trying to regulate, and it costs something. Paragraph 2(b) states that indirect expropriation occurs \u201Cwhen a state takes an investor\u2019s property in a manner equivalent to direct expropriation, in that it deprives the investor in substance of the use of the investor\u2019s property,\u201D. The kind of State action where State regulation costs money to a corporation protecting the environment is exactly the kind that would be caught by paragraph 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EParagraph 3 states: \u201CIn order to constitute indirect expropriation, the state\u2019s deprivation of the investor\u2019s property must be: (a) either severe or for an indefinite period; and (b) disproportionate to the public purpose.\u201D Clearly, if the State was trying to regulate to protect the environment it would be permanent, and the question of whether it would be disproportionate would be decided by an international panel. Whether the Government\u2019s judgment was allowed would be determined by an international disputes panel. Paragraph 4 states that if one targets a particular class of investor, one is very likely to get caught up in expropriating. That is an easy provision to meet if, for example, one targets a bunch of agricultural producers or dairy farmers and tries to clean them up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EParagraph 5 states\u2014and this is probably what the Government is hoping will protect it\u2014\u201Csuch measures taken in the exercise of a state\u2019s regulatory powers as may be reasonably justified in the protection of the public welfare, including public health, safety and the environment, shall not constitute indirect expropriation.\u201D Paragraph 5 gives the appearance of protecting State action. It says that State actions to protect public welfare do not constitute indirect expropriation. But there is an important exemption and an important qualifier. The exemption is that it does not cover the kinds of actions where any particular industry or class of investors is targeted. The qualifier is the term \u201Creasonably justified\u201D. Even if the State action does not meet the terms of paragraph 4 in that it does not target a class of investors, it must still be reasonably justified, and an international panel will decide whether the actions of the Government are reasonably justified. There is not even any guidance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EOnce the exemption and the qualifier in paragraph 5 are included, the protection to State action looks weak. This is why Professor Matthew Porterfield from Georgetown University, an international expert in trade law, said that in our agreement with China we are actually exposing ourselves to greater risk of legal action than the US Government faces under its investment clauses. So a close reading of chapter 11 and annex 13 makes it clear that any kind of New Zealand Government regulatory action that negatively affects the value of Chinese investors\u2019 assets is wide open to action being taken against the New Zealand Government by the Chinese investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhere the New Zealand Government action particularly affects a class of investors, then the Government\u2019s only defence is to show that its actions were proportionate to the public purpose intended. It will be up to an international panel to decide whether the action was proportionate, regardless of the view of the people or Government of New Zealand. Where a State action does not affect a particular class of investors or is not in breach of a contract, then the Government has a better opportunity to win its case, but only if the tribunal agrees that the Government\u2019s action was reasonably justified to protect public welfare. Thus, the New Zealand Government will have two lines of defence, but both of them involve convincing a non-elected, international panel that the actions of the Government were proportionate or reasonable to achieve the public purpose desired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00226e61218c4de44947b8d327cf204aa029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e61218c4de44947b8d327cf204aa029\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. I t\u0113r\u0101 wiki i whakanuitia a Rererangi Aotearoa e te Minita T\u0101poi a Damien O\u2019Connor te whakatuwheratanga o te rere-kotahi mai i a Beijing ki T\u0101maki-makau-rau. E mea ana te Minita, \u201Che m\u0101rea hokohoko tino nui ki a Haina, m\u014D ake tonu\u201D. E toru r\u0101 ki muri, he tirohanga rere k\u0113 m\u014D t\u0113nei \u201Cm\u0101rea hokohoko tino nui ki Haina, m\u014D ake tonu\u201D, n\u0101 te Tatauranga o Aotearoa. I te marama o Pipiri, ko heke ng\u0101 manuhiri n\u014D Haina i te 24 pai h\u0113neti i te marama o Pipiri, i t\u0113r\u0101 tau e 1,600 ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata. E rua marama atu i te hainatanga o te kawenata hokohoko noa, kua kite t\u0101tou, k\u0101hore pea ng\u0101 huamoni e rite ana ki nga t\u016Bmanako. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKa matakite te pukapuka a T\u016B Mai, a ng\u0101 tau tekau e t\u016B mai nei e 61 miriona ng\u0101 t\u016Bruhi n\u014D Haina ka haere ki whenua k\u0113. Ko te m\u0101rea hokohoko whai rawa o Haina t\u0113nei e whakaarohia ana e te Minita T\u0101poi. Engari ko te p\u0101tai nui ki a t\u0101tou me p\u0113hea te m\u0101rea hokohoko nei e p\u0101tari ai ki t\u0113nei whenua? He h\u012Bnaki r\u0101nei e mau ai t\u0101tou? Ko nga kaimahi utu-iti, hei maunu m\u0101 ng\u0101 pakihi o Aotearoa e raruraru ana i te k\u0101inga. Kia p\u0113nei rawa a Aotearoa nei? Hei kura pae m\u014D Haina? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKua tohutohu mai te R\u014Dp\u016B Rongomau me te Tika o te Ao ko te utu ki a t\u0101tou, ko ng\u0101 turanga mahi rua tekau mano ka ngaro, ko te nuinga he mahi wheketere i te mutunga o ng\u0101 taake hoko mai. E maumahara tonu ana t\u0101tou ki ng\u0101 tau waru tekau, he parekura te whakaw\u0101teatanga kia hokohoko noa i p\u0101 kino nei ki ng\u0101 kaimahi, ar\u0101, ng\u0101 kaimahi M\u0101ori i ng\u0101 wheketere. E maumahara tonu ana t\u0101tou ki te Multilateral Agreement on Investment me t\u014Dna t\u0101huhu kia taetae noa mai ng\u0101 kamupene nunui o te ao ki te hoko haere i w\u0101 t\u0101tou rawa. \u0100, e m\u014Dhio an\u014D hoki t\u0101tou he aitu\u0101 ki ng\u0101 kaimahi o konei i te w\u0101 e whiwhi nui ana ng\u0101 kamupene nui o Haina, me ng\u0101 taniwha p\u0113nei i a Fonterra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKo ng\u0101 hua e kore e eke ki te utu engari, ehara te utu i te moni anake. I te w\u0101 e ngaro ana te waihanga taputapu ki a Haina, ka heke to t\u0101tou mana i w\u0113tahi atu \u0101huatanga o t\u0113nei p\u012Brangi ki t\u014D t\u0101tou hoa hokohoko hou. I te t\u012Bmatanga o te whakatata haere ki Beijing, e titiro ana te ao ki a Haina kia kitea m\u0113n\u0101 e hiahia ana te k\u0101wanatanga ki te whakatika i \u0101na takahanga mana tangata p\u0113nei i te whakapai i te paru ki te one. Engari au\u0113 taukuri e, e ai ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a Amnesty International, ka whakawhiu tonu atu te k\u0101wanatanga i ng\u0101 kaiwawao mana tangata. Kino atu i t\u0113r\u0101, kei te mauhere tonu ng\u0101 kaiwawao, r\u0101tou e tohu ana i ng\u0101 hara a te k\u0101wanatanga, kia tika katoa ai i mua o te t\u012Bmatanga o te tauwhainga Olympia. E maumahara ana au ki t\u0113tahi kauhau a te Pirimia i te Akoranga Rongomau o te Whare W\u0101nanga o T\u0101maki-makau-rau, ka p\u0113nei ia: \u201CKei te tino m\u0101harahara au, ina whakawaireka te k\u0101wanatanga N\u0101hinara ki a r\u0101tou o \u0100hia, e kore e taea t\u0101 r\u0101tou whakamaru mana tangata te kite.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKia m\u0101rama ai t\u0101tou n\u0101 te tino kino te takahi mana tangata o Haina, ka tuhi atu a Amnesty International i t\u0113tahi reta i runga i ng\u0101 au\u0113 a te tini mano huri noa te ao, e karanga ana ki a Haina, kia whakatikangia ng\u0101 mana tangata kua roa k\u0113 e t\u0101mia ana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ET\u0113r\u0101 ka mate an\u014D te m\u0101tauranga tuku iho a ng\u0101 t\u016Bpuna i ng\u0101 mahi whakawaireka a te k\u0101wanatanga. Kua tohu mai t\u0113r\u0101 p\u016Bkenga pakihi a Aroha Mead, ka totohu ng\u0101 toi M\u0101ori i te waipuke mai o ng\u0101 taputapu noa. N\u0101na an\u014D te whakat\u016Bpato, kei waimeha te tohu mana o Toi Iho i te nui o ng\u0101 taputapu tinihanga e hokona ana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI te w\u0101 o te komiti tirohanga, ka p\u0113nei tonu ng\u0101 karanga a te R\u014Dp\u016B T\u0101poi M\u0101ori o Aotearoa, a Toi M\u0101ori Aotearoa, o Ng\u0101 Aho Whakaari r\u0101tou ko k\u0101kahu Kia Kaha, ko Huia Kait\u0101 e tautoko ana. Ehara \u0113nei i te ihu h\u016Bp\u0113. He umanga t\u0101 pukapuka a Huia kua whiwhi tohu, otir\u0101, n\u0101na an\u014D t\u014D m\u0101tou mana o Aotearoa i whakapumau, n\u0101 te whakam\u0101tau, n\u0101 te whiriwhiri, n\u0101 te whakaputa i taua mana motuhake ki te ao. Kei a Kia Kaha te tikanga o ng\u0101 k\u0101kahu m\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tou toa haup\u014Dro a Cambo, m\u014D ng\u0101 k\u0101kahu hoki m\u014D o t\u0101tou kapa ki nga tauwh\u0101inga o te ao, otir\u0101, kua hokona atu w\u0101 r\u0101tou k\u0101kahu ki Poih\u0101kena, ki Amerika, ki \u016Aropi hoki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EKo Ng\u0101 Aho Whakaari te r\u014Dp\u016B o ng\u0101 kaimahi M\u0101ori whakaata, ng\u0101 kaiwhakat\u016B whakaari, ng\u0101 ringa tohu, ng\u0101 kaimahi hangarau, ng\u0101 kaituhi hoki puta noa te ao. T\u0113n\u0101, i te hui tahi ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B nei ki te tiaki i te rangatiratanga, me mataara te ao, me k\u012B, t\u014D t\u0101tou ao M\u0101ori. I mea atu r\u0101tou ki te komiti, me whaka\u016B ng\u0101 ture i te tikanga kia tautoko te Karauna i te rangatiratanga M\u0101ori o ng\u0101 taonga katoa tae atu ki te m\u0101tauranga. E whakaae ana m\u0101tou ki te take i k\u014Dkiritia e te Uru Kahikatea me tupu te \u014Dhanga wh\u0101nui kia ora ai ng\u0101 pakihi M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EEngari, e kore m\u0101tou e whakaae ki te whakaaro k\u016Bware o te komiti m\u0101 te whai rawa haere o Haina, m\u0101 te whakawhanaunga haere ki te ao wh\u0101nui e kaha ake ai t\u0101 r\u0101tou \u0101rai i ng\u0101 mana tangata. E kore m\u0101tou e whakapono m\u0101 te kawenata hokohoko pokanoa me t\u014D t\u0101tou whenua iti nei ka kitea e Haina te m\u0101ramatanga kia huri ai r\u0101tou ki te ara tika.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHei whakakapinga k\u014Drero; i a t\u0101tou e whakatata ana ki te waru o ng\u0101 r\u0101 o Here-turi-k\u014Dk\u0101, e m\u014Dhio ana t\u0101tou ki te whakaaro ng\u0101 rangatira nunui o te ao, t\u0113r\u0101 me huri tuar\u0101 r\u0101tou ki te r\u0101 whakatuwheratanga o te tauwh\u0101inga Olympia hei tohu whakah\u0113 i te takahanga o Haina i ng\u0101 mana tangata, i te mana motuhake o Tibet. Ka p\u0113r\u0101 an\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tou whakah\u0113? Ka huri r\u0101nei t\u0101tou ki te whakawaireka i a H\u014Dri Puihi i a ia e whakawaireka ana ki a Haina? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EE kore m\u0101tou o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e piupiu i te haki whakapono ki te Kawenata Hokohoko Pokanoa. T\u016Bturu, e tautoko ana m\u0101tou i te \u014Dhanga M\u0101ori, e kite ana m\u0101tou i ng\u0101 painga ki ng\u0101 iwi e puta mai ana i te hokohoko kai moana, mahi t\u0101poi ki a Haina. Engari, me p\u0113hea m\u0101tou e huri k\u0113 i te t\u0101mitanga taikaha o ng\u0101 reo motuhake o Tibet he takahanga t\u0113r\u0101 i te tangata whenua? E mataara ana m\u0101tou ki ng\u0101 tara koi i roto i te hokohoko pokanoa, pai k\u0113 atu ki a m\u0101tou te hokohoko tika. E rapu ana m\u0101tou i ng\u0101 huarahi tiaki i te taiao, ng\u0101 mana tangata, me ng\u0101 tikanga mahi. I te t\u014Dnga o te r\u0101, he taumaha rawa te utu o ng\u0101 t\u016Branga mahi, ng\u0101 utu mahi, ng\u0101 m\u0101tauranga mahi, te mana motuhake e ngaro katoa ai. E kore m\u0101tou e tautoko i te Ture m\u014D te kawenata hokohoko pokanoa me Haina. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and to us all, the House. Last week, tourism Minister Damien O\u2019Connor was heaping praises upon Air New Zealand as it launched the first non-stop service between Auckland and Beijing. \u201CThis very important long-term Chinese market\u201D was how the Minister put it. Three days later, Statistics New Zealand gave another view about this very important long-term Chinese market. Short-term visitor arrivals from China in June 2008 were a massive 24 percent down\u2014some 1,600 people fewer than recorded in June 2007. Just 2 months after the free-trade agreement had been signed, it appears the economic benefits of the agreement may not be as secure as first envisaged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ET\u016B Mai magazine estimated that in the next 10 years, there will be a possible 61 million Chinese outbound tourists heading off to distant places. That is the lucrative Chinese market the tourism Minister is thinking about. But the big question that hangs over all of our heads is: what will it take, to lure this market to our shores? Or will it all be a one-way street? The lure of labour at cheap rates will be an irresistible pull factor for many New Zealand businesses that are struggling to hold it together at home. Is that the type of Aotearoa we want? Just another link in the \u201CMade in China\u201D brand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EGlobal Peace and Justice Auckland has pointed out that the costs at home may extend up to more than 20,000 jobs being lost\u2014mostly in manufacturing\u2014as tariffs are phased out and removed. We all remember the reforms of the 1980s; the savage impact that trade liberalisation had for workers, particularly M\u0101ori in manufacturing jobs. We remember the Multilateral Agreement on Investment, which aimed to allow multibillion-dollar corporates open season on assets in Aotearoa. And we know that New Zealand workers will become collateral damage, while Chinese companies and international corporations such as Fonterra will score big time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E The stated return is simply not worth the risk\u2014and the costs are not only in monetary terms. While our manufacturing needs will be outsourced to China, our international reputation will inevitably be tarnished by the other impacts of our relationship with our new trading partner. As the build-up to Beijing starts cranking up, the international community is looking to China to see evidence of any political will to clean up its human rights violations as comprehensively as it has got rid of the algae on its beaches. But, sadly, the reports from Amnesty International indicate that, far from it, the official persecution of human rights activists continues. Worse yet, human rights defenders who are speaking out about violations are being detained, imprisoned as part of the pre-Olympics clean-up. I am reminded of a speech the Prime Minister once made to the Auckland University Centre for Peace Studies, in which she said: \u201CI am very concerned that the National Government has chosen a path of ingratiation with those in Asia whose human rights record is poor.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EJust to make it quite clear: the human rights record in the People\u2019s Republic of China is so poor that Amnesty International has sent a letter, inspired by what it describes as hundreds of thousands of voices from around the world, echoing the call to address the longstanding human rights concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAnother likely victim of this political path of ingratiation is apparent in the inherent risks to intellectual and cultural heritage. M\u0101ori business senior lecturer Aroha Mead has warned about the likely threat that M\u0101ori art will become swamped by mass production. She has also suggested that the Toi Iho M\u0101ori Made trademark, which protects quality M\u0101ori arts and crafts, may well be devalued as the market becomes flooded with cheap, gaudy products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process, these same concerns came through loud and clear from the New Zealand M\u0101ori Tourism Society, Toi M\u0101ori Aotearoa, and Ng\u0101 Aho Whakaari, supported by Kia Kaha Clothing and Huia Publishing. These are not lightweights, by any means. Huia Publishing is not only an award-winning publisher, but its works have made a significant contribution our identity as a nation\u2014defining, creating, and expressing our distinctive edge on the world stage. Kia Kaha not only has the clothing contract for our top golfer, Cambo, and previous Commonwealth Games uniforms, but boasts wholesale and retail customers in Australia, the UK, US, and Europe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 Aho Whakaari is the national representative body for M\u0101ori working in film, video, and television in New Zealand, so includes internationally acclaimed actors, directors, producers, technicians, and writers across its reach. So when these groups get together, out of concern for the protection of rangatiratanga, the world needs to sit up and listen\u2014well, at least our world, anyway. They told the select committee that the legislation needs to reflect the Crown\u2019s active duty to protect M\u0101ori authority and control over treasures and intellectual property. Although we acknowledge the points made by the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities that economic growth is essential for M\u0101ori businesses to succeed, we cannot turn a blind eye to the risks and responsibilities we hold to argue for ethical investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe simply cannot accept the rather naive excuse put up by the select committee, that growing prosperity and engagement with the outside world is likely to be linked with better human rights in China. It simply does not wash with us that the free-trade agreement that China has signed up to with our little country will make the mighty superpower see the light and change its ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFinally, as we count down to 8 August, we know that international leaders from across the globe are considering whether they might boycott the Olympic opening ceremony as a powerful criticism over China\u2019s human rights record and security crackdown in Tibet. Will we also be prepared to show our concern, or will we instead be sidling up to President Bush as he in turn sidles up to China? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe in the M\u0101ori Party will not be waving the flag of faith for the free-trade agreement. Of course we want every opportunity to support M\u0101ori economic advancement, and we recognise the opportunities that people see in China, particularly in the area of seafood exports and tourism. But how can we, with any conscience, overlook the brutal repression of dissent in Tibet, which represents a callous disregard for the rights of indigenous peoples? We remain concerned about the fish-hooks in free trade, rather than the justice of fair trade. We seek strategies that are about protection of the environment, human rights, and worker rights. And in the long run, we calculate the costs of lost employment, lost wages, lost expertise, and lost independence, as a cost too big to bear. We do not support the New Zealand - China free-trade agreement legislation.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022e628c23f987049bcaa6ddf41968d7ff7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e628c23f987049bcaa6ddf41968d7ff7\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I need to make it very clear to the previous contributor to this debate, Hone Harawira, that there is no fairer trade than free trade. There is no fairer trade than free trade, and for any politician in this House to turn his or her back on that statement of fact is to undermine the interests of the people he or she purports to represent. I say to the earlier speaker from the Green Party, Dr Norman, that in China we are operating in a communist country\u2014a country with a record of appropriating possessions belonging to members of its community\u2014and the member expects, very naively, that New Zealand investors will go to that country with no form of protection at all, and will put their capital at risk. I say to the member he should get real and find an electorate that will put him into Parliament to represent it, because he is letting down every one of my constituents with everything he has said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI say to the M\u0101ori Party that many M\u0101ori constituents are running businesses in my Wairarapa electorate\u2014dairy businesses, fishing businesses, sheep and beef businesses\u2014and they are doing very well. Those M\u0101ori-owned businesses will benefit unreservedly from this agreement, and it astonishes me that we have people who are prepared to get up in this House and let their supporters down. That is what has been going on here this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis is the most important legislation that will be passed in this Parliament in its life. In fact, it is probably the most significant legislation in the trade and export area to be passed in this country for 25 years, since we signed up to the Closer Economic Relations agreement with Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe have acknowledged the work of Dr David Walker, and that of officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and 20 or 30 other Government agencies. I commend their work. But I would also like to reflect for a second or two on the contribution that underpins this agreement, made by people like Ted Woodfield\u2014arguably, the father of trade policy work in this country\u2014and also made by the first New Zealand head of the World Trade Organization, Mike Moore, who for a long period in this Parliament advocated for free trade. It was the work of those people, built on by successive generations of politicians and officials, that has led us to this point today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe benefits from this legislation will flow on longer than the lives of anyone currently sitting in this Chamber and living in our country, because we are writing legislation that will provide benefits ad infinitum\u2014for as far as we can see into the future. I would ask the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party to please get real. Our wealth, our well-being, our ability to buy Herceptin, our ability to pay our schools a decent amount of money to educate our children, and our ability to keep school bus services going in the northern part of my electorate depend on our ability to generate income. If this country does not export anything, it will have no income. Exporting is how our country survives. When we think about this legislation, I want us to think about it as a mechanism to improve the ability of those people who produce things and sell them\u2014and there are a few people around here who have never produced anything in their lives\u2014to do their business better. I have seen difficult regimes make trade very difficult for New Zealand exporters; I have seen that firsthand when I have lived in countries like India, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The National Party supports this legislation for the very reason that it will make work much easier for the people in our community who are out doing the hard graft of raising our national income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI want to thank the submitters who came to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, regardless of whichever perspective they came with\u2014in a democracy they are entitled to their view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EHowever, it remains incomprehensible to me that people in this Parliament\u2014particularly the New Zealand First Party members\u2014can oppose this legislation, because they have not provided one piece of evidence to substantiate their opposition to it. Mr Brown talked about Chinese people not liking wine. I can only suggest to him that he has never been to a vendor of wine in this country and asked for a bottle of Great Wall wine. It is available in most Chinese restaurants in my electorate. Has Mr Brown heard of Tsingtao beer? Yes, the Chinese drink beer. I tell Mr Brown that some years ago, longer ago than I prefer to remember, I was working in Singapore in our high commission there. A Chinese contact in the national drug bureau, when we were chasing Mr Asia, said there were four things I needed to understand about Chinese communities: wherever there was a Chinese population, there would be gambling, drugs, prostitution, and brandy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b42d5cf753f4ae89d2d907d7b95f0bc\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Also hard work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214069b39c66b4d599af29f62f6f3e0c0\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, also hard work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb43024f9824396a1d0f9a85040eab2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Does that apply to Europeans too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dd751ac30d84076b7de3e60f492af3d\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, that man was looking at life from the point of view of criminal activity in communities. Now, brandy is based on what? The grape. Mr Brown is absolutely off track; Chinese people drink alcohol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EA couple of days ago I mentioned that an economist called Ricardo had developed a thesis and tried to educate people like the New Zealand First Party members that free trade, trade without barriers, was the best way to allocate factors of production efficiently across the economy. It is also long established that individual countries are best to do what they do best. That means that in our country we are a food producer, we have ideas, we have technology like Bill Gallagher\u2019s electric fences, and we need to export them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill mean for my electorate? First of all, for the dairy farmers\u2014and I am thinking of Don Stephenson up in Te Rehunga or Graeme Tulloch in Masterton, or even the dairy support people like Bob Tosswill in Greytown\u2014it will increase their on-farm income really significantly. They will pay more taxes. They will be able to go into the communities and buy goods and services and support our businesses. That is not happening for our sheep and beef farmers, some of whom have often lost $300 every day they have worked in the last 12 months. National is supporting this bill because our farm businesses and our community businesses will be significantly improved by it. Only one company in my electorate, Norsewear, has gone offshore, but that did not happen because of this agreement. It happened because the shareholding in Norsewear was taken over by a bunch of Wellingtonians who sold the brand, and the buyer has gone to China to manufacture clothing items and bring them back here into our community. There is no other negative that I have been able to find in my electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI would now like to refer for a minute or two to the comments from the Green Party on investment. We have in place an agreement with China called the Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement, but it applies only to New Zealand nationals, not to New Zealand residents. Many of the people who work in our country are residents, not nationals, and those people are often working in businesses. The point of the investment part of the free-trade agreement is that it now brings the benefits of an investment agreement to all New Zealanders who are living here. Under the provisions of this agreement as well, no other country that may sign a trade agreement with China will end up with better conditions than we have. Members of the Green Party may not think that is important, but New Zealand investors have $333 million at stake in China\u2014at least they did as at 31 March 2006\u2014and China has $1.66 billion invested in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI tell members that the National Party unreservedly supports this bill, and any electorate MP put into this House by his or her people should do the same, because electorate MPs would know that this step will serve the strongest interest of the people who bring them here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225c3dca0aef2142a984dc19289d32e859\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Tariff Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 4), the Radiocommunications Amendment Bill (No 5), the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Electricity Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299424f7f668d4105a757eb975b161b05\u0022\u003ELawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b667f2e1495408788302fc6b58fdc59\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34995d9279c4467a92017d4905ea6c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34995d9279c4467a92017d4905ea6c8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. The majority of submissions supported the objective underpinning this bill, which is to ensure that members of employer organisations and unions continue to be supported by cost-effective, quality in-house services from their employer organisations and unions. I would like to thank the Justice and Electoral Committee for its careful consideration of the bill within a short time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006 is due to come into force on 1 August 2008. This Act significantly reforms the way in which legal services are provided. As enacted, the Act will prevent unions and employer organisations from continuing their practice of using in-house lawyers to provide legal services to their members. This is because the Act makes the provision of legal services to the public by in-house lawyers\u2014that is lawyers employed by non-lawyers\u2014an act of professional misconduct. However, employment organisations and unions have a long-standing practice of providing cost-effective, accessible legal services to their members through their in-house lawyers. This practice has enabled integrated prevention and advice services, including legal services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESection 9 of the Act contains a list of exemptions to this general rule. This bill amends Section 9 by adding to the exemptions listed in Section 9 the services that unions and employer organisations provide to their members. Alongside this, the bill also protects consumer interests by providing that lawyers providing legal services, as employees of employer organisations and unions, will be guilty of misconduct if they provide legal services to any person other than to the organisation, the union, or its members. This will ensure that the employer organisations and unions continue to provide a timely, practical, financially viable, and relevant service to their members while maintaining the principle objective of protecting consumer interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe select committee has recommended that health professional organisations, as defined under the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act 2003, be included within this list of exempted organisations, and I support this recommendation. In their submissions to the committee a number of health professional organisations raised concerns that the current prohibition in the Act would prevent them from providing legal services to their members, similar to employer organisations and unions. They noted that a withdrawal of this specialised and cost-effective service could lead to a potential shortage in the number of health professionals, particularly independent midwives, given the high indemnity cover and legal expenses that health professionals would have to bear on an individual basis. The committee has recommended the inclusion of health professional organisations within the list of exempted organisations after careful consideration of these submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EOnce again, I would like to thank the select committee members for the work they have done on this bill. It is important legislation that will ensure members continue to benefit from the long-standing, integrated prevention, and advice services provided by employer organisations, unions, and health professional organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EMy colleague Charles Chauvel, who in a former life worked as a lawyer within the union movement, has had considerable experience of just how it works and how it ought to continue to work in the future. This bill will enable that to happen not just for unions, as I said, but for employer organisations, and also for health professional organisations. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002295607c39734a462bbe5cb2640e7b8052\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295607c39734a462bbe5cb2640e7b8052\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Lawyers and Conveyancers Act is quite complex legislation, and parts of it are drafted in quite a tortuous manner not particularly explicable to lawyers and\u2014presumably\u2014even more arcane for those who are not legally qualified. But this Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2) gives rise to a host of problems\u2014problems that clearly will need to be addressed in the Committee stage of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI think in essence there are probably three points. The first is that the public have been grossly misled by the scope of this amendment bill\u2014a point I will develop in a moment. The second is that it has been suggested that this change, which we are asked to make in the context of this bill, is a technical change that was, somehow, omitted. It is, in effect, a \u201Cslip bill\u201D correcting something that should have been corrected at the time when the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act\u2014the substantive legislation\u2014was in the course of passage. The third point is that this change is clearly contrary to the interest of consumers of legal services because of the breadth\u2014possibly the unintended breadth\u2014of the wording. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI now come back to the first point, which is all about the explanatory note when the bill was introduced. To some extent\u2014and I accept this\u2014that has been overtaken by the commentary on the bill as it has been reported from the Justice and Electoral Committee. But that is not the way that the judges tasked to interpret this legislation would necessarily see it. I refer to the third sentence of the explanatory note, which states: \u201CThis amendment is designed to ensure that unions and employer associations can continue a long-standing practice of providing legal services to members of their organisations as part of the delivery of an integrated prevention and advice service\u201D\u2014and then, the key words, which I underscore and emphasise\u2014\u201Cconnected with employment matters.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe status of an explanatory note is the subject of some academic writing. It need not be academic, because it is actually incredibly straightforward and robust. It is not more complicated than Standing Order 258, which makes it absolutely clear that every bill, when it is introduced, must contain a memorandum\u2014known as an explanatory note\u2014stating the policy that the bill seeks to achieve. The explanatory note usually does explain the individual provisions of the bill. It is an attempt, as it were, in non-legal or less formal terms, to set out the purport of the bill that has been presented to the House and, as a matter of law, it is regarded as a very important indicator of the meaning of the language used in the bill, and also, sometimes, in the subsequent Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note of a Government bill, such as the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2), is prepared by the Parliamentary Counsel Office and the department principally responsible for promoting the legislation. It is absolutely clear that in all cases an explanatory note must be drafted in factual and not argumentative terms. It is also very clear that if the Minister in charge of the bill does become aware of a factual error in the explanatory note, the House should be informed, and a correction tabled. That should have been done in this case, because the Minister was on notice that what was in the explanatory note of the bill\u2014that the bill was restricted in the way I have described\u2014was not carried forward into the drafting itself. That is most unsatisfactory. It is highly misleading. That is the first point I wanted to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second point is that I am not at the moment a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee, but by chance I was there when the chairman, Lynne Pillay, proffered to those listening members of that select committee an explanation of what the bill was all about. She said: \u201COh, it\u2019s just technical, really, and it\u2019s just to correct an oversight in the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act.\u201D That was completely wrong. In fact, when the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act was being looked at, the issue that the Minister spoke about was very critically looked at by the Justice and Electoral Committee, which came to the view that this change should not be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe select committee was right in focus, because a number of entities, including the Law Society, had made comments about the way the legislation was worded. A very clear submission from the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions was also made on this very issue. In the introduction provision the council\u2019s submission deals with one aspect of the bill relating to areas of reserved work that only a lawyer or a conveyancing practitioner may do. The submission stated: \u201COur concerns lie with the effect of provisions that capture and prohibit activities that are central to the purpose of unions in the protection and enforcement of members\u2019 entitlements.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe situation that the bill sets out to address is not new. It was not created by the passage of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act. Under the Law Practitioners Act 1982 it was simply not lawful for non-lawyers to provide legal services to the public or to non-lawyer members, which is the issue directly here, by employing lawyers to provide that service. So there are, legitimately, real concerns about this amendment bill to be resolved in the Committee stage. The first is an issue of principle, and the second is the width of the provisions proposed in the bill as at present drafted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EHow appropriate is it that these union organisations and employer organisations have a freedom to offer a substantial range of legal services? Viewed from a consumer perspective, I say it is wholly wrong. It should not be the case that these entities can give advice on drink-driving charges. They should not be involved in drafting family trusts. They should not be involved in tax advice on business structures. They should not be involved in advice on leasing proposals for personal investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt was made very clear in the National Party\u2019s minority report on the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act that the party was concerned about the drafting of these provisions in the substantive bill. In fact, under a heading of \u201CReserved Areas of Work\u201D it stated that National would seek rewriting of the provisions to make their intent more clear and to permit, for example, taxation lawyers to practise in accounting firms. I hope that an opportunity will be taken in the Committee stage to rework these provisions to make it quite clear what the scope of the activity of employer associations and union organisations should be. They should be starkly limited, and they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI guess, also, there is a very significant issue around the role of in-house lawyers that has an ethical base. If an in-house lawyer, as part of his or her duties to his or her employer, provides legal services to anyone other than the employer, the contract for the provision of those services is between the employer, a non-lawyer, which in this case is the employers\u2019 association or the union, and the client, which in this case is the member\u2014rather than between the lawyer and the client. The provision of legal services by non-lawyer organisations is forbidden under both the Law Practitioners Act and the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have said enough at this point to identify the key concerns. My hope is that with some amendments, which I trust will be forthcoming from parties in this House, we can fix up this mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022433d13450828443397438c72d7ccfb96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022433d13450828443397438c72d7ccfb96\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption] I want to make just a couple of brief comments in reply, once the familial dispute across the House between Mrs King and Mr Finlayson has finished. I was interested to hear the speech made by Mr Worth, and I want to address two major points that he sought to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe first was the issue of scope and the explanatory note of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2). Mr Worth seemed to suggest that the explanatory note, which referred to the provision of services being connected to, or arising out of, employment-related services, would somehow cause some difficulty in the construction of the legislation. But, of course, that is not the case. An explanatory note, as all first-year law students come to learn, is only ever prayed in aid in litigation when there is any doubt as to the meaning of the substantive provisions of the legislation. And, of course, that is not an issue here. It is quite clear that the legislation applies, in principle, to all legal services. So the bodies covered by the legislation will, in principle, be entitled to have lawyers employed by them to provide all of those services. The words of the explanatory note, as far as they might have limited the principal Act, simply do not apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe second important point to make is that this legislation makes litigation much less likely, as opposed to much more likely. So the prospect of any litigation over argued or contended uncertainty, raised by Mr Worth, is again a shibboleth here. We have a situation that has been a practice over many years\u201420 to 30 years\u2014where, notwithstanding what is said about the provisions of the earlier legislation, which the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act will replace, the fact is that unions and employers\u2019 associations have employed lawyers directly to provide legal services to their members for many, many years. Those legal services have been conducted responsibly and within the ambit of the particular rules of the union or the employers\u2019 association. No evidence was heard by the Justice and Electoral Committee that that practice has been abused, that there has been any irresponsible provision of legal services, or that the members of the unions or the employers\u2019 associations have, in any way, been unhappy with the services that they have received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn fact, to seek to permit the principal Act to pass in its current form would result in a great unfairness, because it would irregularise the position of those lawyers currently employed by employers\u2019 associations, unions, and others, who are providing a very valuable service at the moment with no complaint, and with no evidence that the service is being provided in any sort of inappropriate way. Passing this amendment, in order to clarify the existing position and to permit it to continue to occur, will minimise the risk of litigation rather than maximise it. It will prevent the Law Society from going to the High Court and seeking a declaration that unions and employers\u2019 associations should not, under the principal Act, be allowed to employ lawyers, or make it clear that they can. The argument about the creation of uncertainty in reference to the explanatory note is quite moot, and, indeed, I suspect it is quite mischievous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe other point that was made by Mr Worth is that somehow this legislation is thought to be inimical to the interests of consumers. I want to dispose of that very quickly. I was\u2014as the Minister in charge of the bill, Annette King, said\u2014employed by a union for a number of years. It was, in fact, my first substantive legal job. I was acting for union members in a blue-collar union, the Service and Food Workers Union, during the introduction of the Employment Contracts Act, which was a difficult time for those members. I can tell the House quite clearly, on the basis of my own experience, that it is not an easy job to do. It is not necessarily a glamorous job, but it is an important job. One can help out people who need a hand and cannot afford expensive lawyers in big firms, QCs, or barristers-at-law but who, none the less, need decent advocacy if something goes wrong in their workplace. The same applies for small businesses that rely on employers\u2019 associations around the country to provide them with legal services when they get in a jam in the workplace. They cannot afford expensive lawyers; they need the services that this legislation will allow them to continue to provide. Frankly, the same goes for the health professionals\u2019 organisations, which the committee also decided to include in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI do not intend to say anymore. If the National Party is somehow now opposed to this legislation, I look forward to National members saying so, but, more important, I look forward to hearing them tell Business New Zealand, to whom they have given assurances as to their support, that that is the case. I certainly hope it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022317194870af14424a238d95e2bdf0bc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022317194870af14424a238d95e2bdf0bc2\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very interesting speech. Mr Chauvel limited himself to incidents in the workplace. New Zealand First ultimately, after discussing this matter, has no difficulty in limiting this bill to matters that take place in the workplace. For that reason New Zealand First will propose an amendment to section 9, in clause 6, by adding the following paragraph to subsection (1A)(a): \u201C(iii) legal services to a member of the organisation that do not relate to employment issues relevant to the member.\u201D If we read subsection (1A) in clause 6 in the bill, we see what that does in the overall context. It states: \u201CDespite subsection (1), a lawyer is guilty of misconduct if, in the course of his or her employment \u2026 (b) by a union, he or she provides\u2014(i) legal services to a person other than the union or a member of the union;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESo they can give advice on employment issues; that is fine. But when they give advice on matters that are not employment issues, that is not appropriate. That proposed change is exactly what Mr Chauvel just said he wanted, and that is what New Zealand First proposes. He wanted that, so I expect that Mr Chauvel, when it comes to the Committee stage, will vote for the issue he wants to see in the bill. I am sure that Mr Chauvel does not want to see these people appearing in drunken driving cases. I am sure he does not want to see these people giving advice on trustee law. I am sure he does not want to see them giving advice on leases. But New Zealand First supports the ability of the trade union movement and Business New Zealand to give advice on employment-related matters. We will support that, and I hope that Labour will, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to the comments from the National Party and other members of the House who are interested in protecting the workers\u2019 movement and Business New Zealand jointly. It is a simple issue. That is what the explanatory note said, was it not, I say to Mr\u2014I am sorry; the member\u2019s name is just too complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220607455d881d4e51932955d31c5978ca\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: Auch-in-vole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235eb02acade947f7a399c91c3ff5b918\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. That is what the explanatory note said and that is what the amendment from New Zealand First proposes to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI think it would be most dangerous if the trade union movement was suddenly known to be available to give advice to its members on all the extraneous matters. What will happen once the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2) becomes known to everyone is that the lawyers in the trade union movement will be contacted by members, who will say that they understand that lawyers can give them advice on matters. Those members will ask the lawyers to give them that advice, as the lawyers are being paid good money to do it. That is what it boils down to, and on all the other issues as well. I am glad that in the short space of barely half an hour we have come to the nuts and bolts of these issues, as lawyers, hopefully, are prone to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI think Mr Auchinvole, as a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee, grasps what I am saying. I had the privilege of being at the select committee. Although I am not a regular member of it, the Standing Orders allowed me to be there. I hope that Mr Chauvel is now confirming that the amendment I have in mind will work satisfactorily, and that on Tuesday we will have tidied up this issue. We will also be moving an amendment to give further effect to it\u2014legal services and suchlike\u2014and another amendment to clause 10, which was put forward by the Law Society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt is great to be able to achieve this. I was very critical the other night. This bill has been before Parliament for only 4 working days\u2014if as long as that. The select committee had its time for submissions curtailed\u2014it was given virtually 1 day to hear submissions. The Minister said the majority of submissions supported the bill. Well, that was a bit of a long bow to draw; after all, submitters were given only 48 hours to make submissions, and one of them had 350,000 members. That is pretty hard to beat! So I would have to agree with the Minister, but in practice it was a bit of a long bow to draw. Everyone loves a trier, and the Minister of Justice is doing the best she can in the circumstances, but I do hope she takes the suggestion into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe law was very well stated by the New Zealand Law Society in its original submission to the select committee, and we had the opinion of Douglas White QC on the matter. We had no doubt as to what the law was as a result of hearing that submission. What was being done by Mr Chauvel and others in the union movement was, as he said, \u201Cthe practice\u201D. It was a nice way of saying that they were breaking the law but that that was the practice. We had a good look at it, as Dr Worth has said, and we turned it down. I must commend Dr Worth for his speech; he set out the matter very clearly. I believe I have suggested the solution, which is envisaged by the explanatory note. This is really just a technical matter, as Lynne Pillay said. We have identified the mischief and the technicality, we have now come up with solution, and I do commend it to the House. I will not take any further time, because I appreciate that the trade union movement and Business New Zealand want to get this matter on its way. I will be putting forward the amendment on behalf of New Zealand First, I believe, on Tuesday next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c14a1b8e65294421b34885e148c08661\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c14a1b8e65294421b34885e148c08661\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose clause of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2) states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable lawyers who are employed by employer organisations or unions to provide legal services to persons who are members of their respective employers.\u201D This bill is needed in order to amend the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006, which is due to come into force on 1 August, so some special speed is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe Minister Annette King, in introducing the bill during the first reading debate, asked for a very short time frame, and National members responded in their first reading speeches that they would support the legislation and the short time frame. The courtesy of early advice and request has been most encouraging. Speaking as a first-term MP, I say that it is nice to find that this level of cooperation is, on occasions, transacted by the present Government. I guess I can think of other legislation where it would have been nice had that level of communication occurred. One of the reasons for this time frame is to provide assistance to the affected parties that are caught up in this new legislation through no fault of their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI admit to having taken a moment or two when on the Justice and Electoral Committee to fully understand the ramifications of it all. My colleague Richard Worth said that the legislation being amended was highly technical, and I concur with that. A number of the submitters we heard from were asking for the status quo to continue\u2014the practice that Mr Chauvel referred to. From my understanding that was not really what they wanted. It was not in their best interests, because the whole situation was about to change. They did not want the status quo to carry on; what they required was to be able to continue their previous practices. But under the new legislation they are expressly forbidden from doing that, and even then they probably should not have been doing it anyway. The legislation does this by distinguishing between legal services required by the organisation\u2014particularly advocacy and representation services\u2014and those required by the organisation\u2019s members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe intention of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006 included protecting confidence in the provision of legal services and conveyancing services, and protecting consumers of those services. It could be said, and has been said by submitters, that the reason for this bill was that there was an unintended consequence of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006, which will be corrected by this amendment bill. The bill includes employer organisations and trade unions in the list of employers of in-house lawyers who are able to provide the regulated services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe nub of the matter is that the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006 has a general principle that lawyers must be employed by lawyer organisations if they are to provide legal services to the public. Members of unions and employer organisations are members of the public, so a situation occurs where members of these organisations\u2014such as the 42,000 members of the Nurses Organisation\u2014are suddenly deprived of the services they have enjoyed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ESimilarly, Business New Zealand welcomed and supported this amendment bill, which addresses a current anomaly preventing lawyers with practising certificates who are employed by employers\u2019 organisations and unions from providing legal services to members of their organisations. The only way they can do so is to work without practising certificates and not refer to themselves as lawyers. That, I would imagine, would not be a particularly easy thing for a professional lawyer to swallow, but I do not have an opinion on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBut should this bill not proceed, the options would be for unions and employment organisations to use legal personnel without practising certificates, or to provide current legal services through a separate firm set up for the purpose. To a non-lawyer like myself, when one has the representatives from Business New Zealand, the New Zealand Educational Institute, and the New Zealand Nurses Organisation, and letters from the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, all at the same table making harmonious submissions together, it really is head-scratching stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELegal practice, of course, has intrinsic and intricate relationships, protocols, and a very long history of using precedents, and when one starts to regulate a control in a particular direction, it often cuts into a practice that has been exercised through convention, not regulation. So by introducing regulation, the strength of the convention is then open to question and doubt. This was my impression from listening to the New Zealand Law Society\u2019s submission, which related to the practice of lawyers being employed by non-lawyers to provide legal services to their employers but not to other employees. Their list of reasons for this includes the need to ensure that legal services are provided to members of the public by lawyers qualified to practise on their own account or under the direct supervision of a lawyer who is qualified, the need for independent advice, the protection of the Law Society\u2019s rules of professional conduct and other regulations, and the liabilities involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ETo me, the Law Society\u2019s submission demonstrated that the position and practice that had previously occurred as a convention was condoned, rather than having any formal recognition, but now that the matter was under consideration, then the old ways could no longer be adhered to\u2014hence the problem. The Law Society\u2019s submission was true to its profession in looking at everything every which way, and it is indeed the task of that organisation to do that. As a non-lawyer, though, I was taken on a journey of labyrinthine proportions through the reasons, concerns, wise saws, and instances of the sorts of problems that will be associated with introducing this amendment bill, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the society\u2019s advice and argument. The solution offered was in line with the comments of the other organisations in relation to surrendering practising certificates and setting up separate legal firms or entities, although the others had seen that as being disadvantageous and unwieldy. The Law Society saw the danger of precedence in any move to allow exceptions\u2014as will occur with this amendment\u2014and considered that it could lead to demand for exceptions for other categories of lawyers employed by non-lawyers, such as those in major firms of accountants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EOne point made in all the submissions resonated particularly with me, and that is to be seen when looking at the purpose of the bill. An earlier version of the bill stated that it was to enable lawyers who were employed by employer organisations and unions to provide legal services to persons who were members of their respective employers. I see now, in this latest published edition, that it allows them to \u201Cprovide\u201D; it does not say \u201Cenable\u201D them. But the key word to me is that word \u201Cenable\u201D. It does not compel, and it opens an opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIf I were a lawyer, I wonder how I would feel about having an obligation or a compulsion to provide whatever services employees wanted. I am not sure that I would want that. Then I found there were some 35 lawyers, I think, in this particular category. Those who spoke to the committee indicated that their pressure of work was such that they had scant opportunity to accept engagements of a personal nature from other employees. I myself would have thought that they would probably have a natural reluctance to make themselves too available, anyway. I wonder whether the whole matter could be addressed by the simple addition of a phrase in the purpose of the bill, specifying that such legal services apply to matters of employment only. That, I would hope, would overcome all the raised and perceived concerns expressed during the submission process. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002266ea51b6ba1b426ba584416a44b137b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ea51b6ba1b426ba584416a44b137b0\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call, because I think everyone acknowledges there is a problem here that needs to be addressed, but, as so often happens, the devil is in the detail, and it behoves us to try to get right the formula of words. That is a point I have made on a number of occasions in debates in this House, and of course the Government has ignored it every time, most recently in relation to the passage of the Electoral Finance Bill, when I said to several people on the Labour side that, even accepting that their prime aim with the legislation was to do in the National Party, there were numerous provisions in the bill where the words are not right. It was not that I was giving them advice on how to do us in, but I was saying there were issues of a general nature where the i\u2019s were not dotted and the t\u2019s not crossed, and they were ignored. Of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc55c131201c410fbbda796a13bf72b7\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Stop reading us the email.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cdda6a9d38443c7bc68206158fa9734\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that legislation is coming home to haunt them, and I am so delighted because it will hasten the demise of the MP for Otaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut let us go to the preliminary provisions of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Amendment Bill (No 2). I think Dr Worth described the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act as tortuous legislation. It is not particularly good legislation. It was in gestation for many years, it passed into law a couple of years ago, and it is all coming to a head because the Act itself comes into force on 1 August, in relation both to lawyers and to conveyancers. So it has had a fairly long transitional period, and this issue has emerged at the 11th hour, which is why the National Party supported the bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee, and cooperated in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs I said, there was an issue that needed to be looked at. The primary purpose of the legislation is to maintain public confidence in the provision of legal services and conveyancing services. We are not so worried about conveyancing services in the context of this bill. But we come immediately to section 9 as it was originally enacted. Subsection (1) states: \u201CA lawyer is guilty of misconduct who, being an employee, provides regulated services to the public other than in the course of his or her employment\u2014(a) by a lawyer;\u201D, and then subsection (1) sets out the various categories: for example, the Legal Services Agency, the Public Trust, the M\u0101ori Trustee, and trustee companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt did appear that there was a gap, because over a period of time there had at least developed a practice\u2014whether or not it was legal\u2014where certain persons who were qualified lawyers within unions and organisations like Business New Zealand and the Nurses Organisation would, in the course of their work, provide advice to members. My understanding is that the advice offered was in the nature of advice relating to employment. It would be highly unlikely and very, very dangerous for, for example, the lawyer in the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union\u2014whose name is Mr Wilton, I believe\u2014to be giving advice on matters relating to mergers and takeovers, or the law relating to family protection, and so on. The most a person, in that instance, would do is refer the inquirer on to another lawyer who was qualified to give that advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo, recognising that this practice has grown up, recognising the constraints of section 9, and recognising that there was a problem in this legislation\u2014which is soon to come into force\u2014the National Party supported the bill going to the select committee. We listened very carefully to the submissions that were made on behalf of those organisations, and on behalf of the Nurses Organisation. But we made a comment in the report that although we supported the passage of the legislation, we may want to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper at the Committee of the whole House stage if, after careful consideration of matters raised in oral submissions to the committee, we considered there were further matters to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo I am very interested to hear that Mr Jones of New Zealand First is proposing a Supplementary Order Paper to deal with certain definitional issues. I will have a good look at that over the next few days. The Leader of the House said in the House this afternoon that this bill will go through its remaining stages next week, and I hope that all parties will in good faith take a look at the Supplementary Order Paper that Mr Jones proffers, to see whether it will address the concern on the one hand of the Law Society, while recognising the very legitimate concerns of those who made submissions to the select committee in favour of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI do not think the various parties are too far apart. It is a question of words, so I think it behoves us when it comes to the Committee stage of the bill to see whether it can be improved. I think that is everyone\u2019s intention. I listened very carefully to what Dr Worth said about the history of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006 and its passage into law. I can understand why we need to give urgent attention to this matter, and I will be very interested to look at the amendments that are being proffered by Mr Jones, to see whether there can be a meeting of the minds, because this is a very important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI come back to the purpose provisions set out in section 3 of the Act, the most important of which is to maintain public confidence in the provision of legal services. We have to make sure that if an opportunity is afforded to the lawyer employees of employer organisations or unions, they are able to carry out what they have traditionally done, but not range into areas that may be well beyond their areas of competence. I do not think they would intend to move beyond what has been the practice over many years, and that is why we need to pay careful attention to the words\u2014to avoid the prospect of litigation once the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act comes into force. So I very much look forward to the Committee stage, and to the members of the Committee working together to see whether we can solve what appears to be a terminological problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229eaebcb4a700411699acb66bb4c518f3\u0022\u003EFisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022797071f786be43db8b91ef39c4b98f6d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdcee788f96d49d995257dc04c3ae379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdcee788f96d49d995257dc04c3ae379\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time. At the conclusion of the first reading debate, I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee, that the committee present its report to the House on or before 25 August 2008, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192 and 195(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill (No 2) will amend the Act to address a serious problem identified by the High Court in February 2008 in relation to setting the total allowable catch. The ruling of the High Court has made an amendment to the Act inevitable. The ruling the court made concerns setting the total allowable catches, or TACs. The total allowable catch is the main instrument we use in determining how much fish can be taken sustainably from the sea, under our quota management system. The court found that before the Minister of Fisheries can set a total allowable catch under section 13 of the Act for any fishery, he or she must have received estimates of the current stock level of the fishery, as well as its target stock level. The target stock level is the level of biomass that can produce the maximum sustainable yield for that fishery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe court\u2019s requirement sounds straightforward, but it is not. The information needed to produce such estimates is available for very few of our fisheries. Fisheries research is very expensive. To get the information would in many cases be unreasonably costly in terms of time and other resources. Consequently, since the Act came into force a number of management strategies, all consistent with the concept of maximum sustainable yield, have been pursued. Some of these strategies have used modelled estimates of biomass levels and others have used alternative indicators of the relative state of the stocks. Some of the alternative indicators have direct links to maximum sustainable yield; in other cases the links are implied. In all cases the management strategies aim to manage fish stocks towards achieving the maximum sustainable yield.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIt is a sensible method. In the absence of an enormous and probably uneconomic level of research, we do not have the information the court has required. This is the case for the majority of New Zealand\u2019s 629 quota management stocks. It is particularly relevant to the New Zealand fishery because research costs are recovered from the industry itself. If the court ruling was strictly applied, it would almost certainly put most fishing companies out of business. The approach used in New Zealand is the way other countries manage fisheries similar to ours. It is the approach used in Australia, the United States, and Canada, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe finding of the High Court prevents the Minister of Fisheries from using established practices when making catch-limit decisions for fisheries in the quota management system. In the absence of estimates of the current and target stock level, fisheries Ministers should be able to make decisions on the total allowable catch using the best information available from a range of sources. Catch limits should be set using the best information available, without requiring the level of research that involves unreasonable cost, time, and effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill will enable the total allowable catch to continue to be set under section 13 using existing management approaches, even where the current stock level of a fishery, and the biomass that can produce maximum sustainable yield, are not able to be estimated reliably. The amendment will not change the general approach of the Fisheries Act 1996. It will not alter the balance between the objectives of sustainability and utilisation, and it will not alter the balance of interest between stakeholder groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EWithout this amendment the total allowable catch could not be set for many fish stocks in New Zealand and, at the same time, the rulings set by the court could not be met. In other words, the High Court\u2019s finding this year prevents the use of established practices in making catch-limit decisions for fisheries in the quota management system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe next fishing year starts on 1 October 2008. It is important that the Fisheries Act be amended so that I can make decisions on new catch limits before 1 October. I will therefore be requesting that the Primary Production Committee report the bill back to the House by 25 August so that it can be enacted by mid-September. I would appreciate the cooperation of the select committee in this regard. Needless to say, the relevant stakeholders have been consulted. Although the committee will have a shortened consideration period, it is important to note that the bill does not seek to alter the approach taken to setting catch limits in New Zealand; it merely seeks to make the current practice, which was passed by this Parliament, lawful. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022636b0228039d4af3bb879231160ef5c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022636b0228039d4af3bb879231160ef5c7\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like the various parties in the House to know, and the various fishing interests\u2014commercial, customary, and recreational\u2014that are no doubt listening in, that the National Party will be voting for this legislation. We see it as important legislation to be going through the House at this time. The bill essentially amends section 13 of the Fisheries Act 1996 to allow the continuation of what has always been done in practice\u2014that is, the use of a range of methods and management strategies in the setting of the total allowable catch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI thank the Minister of Fisheries, Jim Anderton, for keeping the National Party informed of progress in the development of this legislation because, like him, we would be very concerned indeed if, come 1 October, the Minister was not able to make total allowable catch decisions. The making of those decisions is a very important job\u2014in fact, the top job of the Minister of Fisheries. The Minister therefore makes recreational allocations for fish stocks right across the country, makes customary allocations, decides on mortality rates, and, ultimately, decides the total allowable commercial catch. So in establishing that the current legislation is unclear\u2014and certainly the courts have interpreted that and Crown Law supports that view\u2014I and the National Party are very keen to ensure that we endorse what was always intended in the legislation; that is, the continuation of what has always been done. In practice, a range of methods have been used to establish the maximum sustainable yield in every fish stock, and to ensure that the total allowable catch and the total allowable commercial catch are set appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe agree with the Minister of Fisheries that it is illogical and unreasonable to expect research on fish stocks to find out exactly what is going on in every fish stock. There are hundreds of types of fish species, and an awful lot of fishing goes on with recreational, customary, and commercial fishing. The Ministry of Fisheries, and certainly New Zealand\u2019s resources, could not possibly measure fish stocks in every case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080724770cdfb7e5524d88bb4f987244c7a036000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"