"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269250d2e8bba4c219fca5f073472d135\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1a575030c264018ab6068a081181988\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b649c781701849c6ab6a0e120b1fa905\u0022\u003EResignations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235eb3ef1ad864ac4922e75bc43fde9a1\u0022\u003EBrian Connell, Rakaia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd6de68ecb94c66bef432e13562532e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd6de68ecb94c66bef432e13562532e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to advise the House that I have received a letter from Brian Connell, resigning his seat in the House with effect at the close of 31 August.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002219a12518072c43568e74f20e27375dcc\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d107d28c8fa492890a277640c6bc7f8\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcf21d376feb4ab09eb1b73b55233388\u0022\u003ETax Cuts, Budget 2008\u2014Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8b33e52519442ea15f5871ae1d1a23\u0022\u003E1. Hon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on support for the tax cuts legislated for on Budget night 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f63051f5894c94ba16929c497eed9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f63051f5894c94ba16929c497eed9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen widespread support for the tax cuts that come into force 4 weeks from tomorrow, which will see a couple on the current average household income of $72,000\u2014split two-thirds and one-third\u2014with two children aged 11 and 8, better off by $2,223 a year from 1 October, rising to $4,397 a year, or $85 a week, from 1 April 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6715c34b4e94d668c9a53be3df28b24\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports of plans to remove aspects of this tax cut package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200acd004117640b48f0bd610a106e769\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Despite voting in favour of the package, the leader of the National Party, Mr Key, seemed to confirm yesterday that National plans to scrap the April 2011 tax cuts. Indeed, every time details appear about National\u2019s planned tax cuts, it is clear that it is not planning to offer New Zealanders more, but is simply engaging in a smoke and mirrors exercise to deliver less to those on low and middle incomes and more to those on higher incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227de838eee8c4fcfbe67ff8d9ab344b8\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that before the 2005 election he promised tax cuts, and that afterwards he cancelled them when he could afford them; so this time around, when he has promised tax cuts again, why should people believe that he will follow through on them, when his fiscal outlook is not nearly as good as it was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ca2f633a094872be95f304479d4d6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not be aware of it, but the tax cuts have been legislated for and come into force on 1 October. That could have been conveyed to Lord Ashcroft only a few days ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9043eb5d164382a02dc1fd5c799074\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on support for tax cut packages similar to the package announced in this year\u2019s Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022032e290e25f6481381fd006edde8177c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report that tax cuts should primarily benefit lower and middle income families, who are most in need, rather than those at the top end of the income scale. That report comes from a United States senator, Barack Obama, who differs from Mr Key on this issue, but who shares other similarities with him. As, indeed, a reader of the New Zealand Herald pointed out, \u201CThey are scientifically similar in that they are both male bipedal mammals with an identical number of arms, legs and internal organs.\u201D The difference, of course, is that Mr Obama stands for change you can believe in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4a71642353477fa67b8d9a851f7926\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to those who see this year\u2019s tax cuts as merely a down payment on the likely increase in household costs arising from the implementation of the emissions trading scheme, given that the Government\u2019s compensation package, announced yesterday, will give them a mere $2.15 a week in 2010 by way of compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ceac2542bae48d19bd9d86de95ec6c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The compensation will fully compensate households, on average, for the impact of the emissions trading scheme in relation to electricity prices. It is possible, of course, that some families will not be fully compensated, and some slightly more than that, but I am sure that if the member follows the details he will realise that a great deal of effort has gone into trying to make the compensation, as best as it possibly can, match actual household needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e690ec4da90c4d219dc4a35533c58ce9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u2014Donations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a499da87d14e23bbf5bbd3c0d7853f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: On how many separate occasions did she discuss with the Rt Hon Winston Peters the issue of a donation from Mr Owen Glenn, and what responses did she get from Mr Peters that gave her the confidence to retain him as a Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022de67c4a8b9a743c994d3c1d9189a29c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de67c4a8b9a743c994d3c1d9189a29c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I spoke with Mr Peters in late February, and on three occasions in July. On each occasion, Mr Peters assured me that neither New Zealand First nor he personally had received donations from Mr Glenn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15e092d95174f19bfcad6c79ad7a81d\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that Mr Glenn told her in February that he had made a donation to Mr Peters and/or his party, and that Mr Peters had himself asked for that donation to be made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022268ae1003e834b0a80f94069c12ab6c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that Mr Glenn told Mr Mallard and me that he had met with Mr Peters in Sydney. We were certainly left with the impression that he had been asked for money, and that some time later he had been advised where to pay it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262ce7d98e4924398bae1e92c61837a44\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen any reports regarding confidence in the Rt Hon Winston Peters that would suggest that Mr Key has changed his position on this matter several times, from one allowing wriggle room to one of having no confidence in the findings of the Serious Fraud Office if it clears Mr Peters, yet he has said he wants to keep the Serious Fraud Office should he be in charge after the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d88feb6e794b63a6257466092bd09d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has no responsibility for the National Party or its views, but she can address the question as long as it does not address the views of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c69b61633d1641aeabebad2e649009b7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The question is not inside the scope of the primary question, which was about the donation given to Mr Peters\u2014the Owen Glenn saga as we now know it. It does not relate to all sorts of extraneous things that might arise out of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221669c58095d84d0b91fb65aef938d6b2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: However, it does raise the important question of confidence, and that is what is used in the primary question. I looked at the question closely and it was on that basis that I gave the ruling. But the Prime Minister is not responsible for National Party views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565e8283d66e484e992afdc0ce05f196\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure it would be possible to answer the question without getting into that sort of territory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ff6cedbce904c208f36ef9ed3e8679b\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister not think that because this issue involved her Minister of Foreign Affairs soliciting a large donation from a person who was seeking to become the honorary consul to Monaco, she should have taken more action than simply observing that there was a conflict of evidence; and that, in fact, she should have forced a resolution of this conflict back in February?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225caf2ff869fc4e9aab55c66d2c9b1c5a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, I did take action, and that involved phoning the Minister, who assured me categorically that he had never received money personally, nor had New Zealand First, nor had he asked for it. I must say that my assumption was that both men were honourable gentlemen and there may well be some innocent explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b586ef0461548acb72ad1e14426a37a\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when it become clear some 6 months ago that Owen Glenn\u2019s advice to the Prime Minister that he had made a substantial donation was contradicted by Winston Peters, first to the Prime Minister, and then to the public of New Zealand, did the Prime Minister not take steps to determine the truth of the matter, since, given his position as Minister of Foreign Affairs, the issue had the potential not only to destabilise the Government, but also to negatively impact on New Zealand\u2019s reputation within the international community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022595736ba4ce24d24a27138a47479d48b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my previous answer, I believe that both gentlemen are honourable gentlemen, and I assumed there may be some innocent explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bc1a92e43f44c79a761fc809063e121\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen any reports regarding confidence in Winston Peters that would suggest that Mr Key has given away parliamentary questions in an effort to damage Mr Peters by proxy, to a member who went on to blatantly mislead the House by making outrageous claims of a TVNZ cover-up, only to find that the item that the member claimed TVNZ destroyed had been sitting on a shelf since January 2005; and what does that say about the credibility of Rodney Hide? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ea636b95144efd9189ffb7785bcb0b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat again, and then I will take Mr Brownlee\u2019s point of order, that reports must relate to ministerial responsibility, and therefore they relate to the confidence that is in the primary question. The Prime Minister has no responsibility for other matters. So I would ask those members who may have already prepared questions to reflect on that ruling, because it may well be that their questions will have to be ruled out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fdc68e2edd449c08226f6f74aa8606e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously I have no responsibility for the way in which the National Party allocates its questions or supplementary questions. I can only observe that Mr Hide seems to have had rather more than what an ACT member would be due.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efd2a2db34544fc9834f15e0e417055\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Was it not a sign of how serious this issue was, that the Prime Minister rang Mr Peters in South Africa to discuss it with him; if so, why, when she was unable to reconcile the two conflicting stories that were being told to her, did she not seek to resolve this matter rather than letting it drift on until it was discovered by the media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022462730e707dd40c981c62d55e0a6942b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Because as I said in response to an earlier question, I assumed that there must be some innocent explanation as both gentlemen are honourable gentlemen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262e3c1c6805740708b48509c0c0e0827\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister or any of her staff or colleagues go back to Mr Glenn after she had discussed the issue of the donation with Mr Peters; if so, what was discussed with Mr Glenn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229945f5364a99458e829b3d3be14fb0c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, I have not been back to Mr Glenn. I do not know of anyone who has been back to Mr Glenn on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c10dff2e7742a181d004a3a00c5ede\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister not think she had an obligation to disclose what Mr Glenn had told her, when Mr Peters subsequently called his press conference on February 28 to deny that there was ever a donation and to wave around his infamous \u201CNo\u201D sign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac666c7e5d9e4f0489cb5666f051ae40\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, because I have assumed that both gentlemen are honourable gentlemen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc4a31365054d6b841a81221f9a6500\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that by failing to disclose what Mr Glenn had said to her at a time when Mr Peters was emphatically denying such a donation, and calling editors and senior journalists liars, and demanding their resignations, she made herself complicit in Mr Peters\u2019 attempts to mislead the New Zealand public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b17ff6a4b1d48bcb0aac68311df4b43\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. It has been clear all along that there is a conflict of evidence, and both gentlemen are honourable gentlemen. One assumes there is some innocent explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f866a3e4ef974094b0bf7cd0a86f758f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that after she raised the issue of a donation with Mr Peters, Mr Peters did enough to check whether Mr Glenn\u2019s claims were true; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a8386cac604dd58297d1ba6befb58d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It seemed clear to me that Mr Peters was very confident that no money had come to him personally and no money had come to New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e99304f2a0324b3e8e95b8a039a593d6\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Did she have any involvement in facilitating the donation from Mr Glenn to Mr Peters and/or New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb442e8b48e42c3bd11eb4611671e08\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Most emphatically not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb3a559f3d14c08aa3ae9223f05f2fd\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can she tell us whether any member of the Labour Party was involved in the process leading to Mr Glenn\u2019s donation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291551431920e4fe2b22779a6712d5955\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously I have no responsibility for the Labour Party president or council in this House, but Mr Williams has been clear on the public record that he has not had such a role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278afdf586b7d4ea597230b76c77e44df\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has Mr Glenn ever told her about any other donations or offers of donations to politicians or to political parties in New Zealand, aside from those made to Mr Peters and to the Labour Party; if so, who were those politicians or parties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5c2909608f45feb15b7bfb0bbdacd2\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1b1ab0f823e43008342404274e0c884\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How much confidence does she have in assurances from Mr Peters that he and his party have acted inside the law, in the light of revelations that New Zealand First appears to have breached the Electoral Act by failing to disclose funds received from the Spencer Trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fd587d7dd47463395f548a275d9709a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There are a couple of other trusts this House might be quite interested in breaking open, for example to see whether Lord Ashcroft, whom the member had the secret meeting with a few days ago, put in money through the Waitemata Trust and the Ruahine Trust. He seems to have paid for Crosby/Textor to help the British Tory Party; how about helping the New Zealand National Party through those means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226e88292c7f43eb89ca1cd792b36eb0\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does she consider that it is her obligation as Prime Minister to uphold the highest ethical standards in her ministry; if so, was she not obliged to sort out whether Mr Peters asked Mr Glenn for a donation way back in February, rather than to turn a blind eye to it, hold on to a key piece of evidence for 6 months, and let Mr Peters turn this affair into a circus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8724ecdd3542109551afae04219887\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, I consider both gentlemen to be honourable gentlemen and I have assumed that there is some innocent explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3915ece5132416ab88c7c8cbae24c10\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: With reference to a meeting in Sydney, can the Prime Minister confirm that that meeting took place in, I think, August 2005; if so, has she received any credible explanation as to how Mr Peters could have asked for a donation to legal fees for an electoral petition arising out of an election that had not yet been held?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d54c197c778419e8e5eba774a7dd87d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters is emphatic that the only occasion he met Mr Glenn in Sydney was indeed in the August prior to the general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c28a40ef4cf4df8b36a4cb6fccb6971\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Ng\u0101i Tahu Treaty Settlement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267c95cbba6c84beb9e50ec3684c1b013\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: Does he agree with Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu Kaiwhakahaere, Mark Solomon, that the emissions trading scheme represents a significant threat to both the integrity and finality of their 1998 settlement; if not, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad5ab99447784d21abdfae45866b03dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad5ab99447784d21abdfae45866b03dc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E No, I do not agree, for several reasons. The compensation package we have negotiated around the emissions trading scheme has substantially reduced the scheme\u2019s impact on Ng\u0101i Tahu. It is true that a live issue remains around whether the Crown had information about the Kyoto Protocol at the time the settlement was signed with Ng\u0101i Tahu in 1998 that was not disclosed to Ng\u0101i Tahu. That is why the Crown has agreed to open its books to ascertain whether that was the case. If this assertion is correct then the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations will address the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b4cad6bdad482f80ffb972e0a30d0e\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What response will the Minister make to Ng\u0101i Tahu to address their analysis that the emissions trading scheme legislation would \u201Cliterally wipe tens of millions of dollars off the value of the forestry assets we received as part of our settlement.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022387f3024c3d347f386bb7aba12df57f6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That, too, is a moot point. The amount of compensation in the form of deforestation emission units, which are a valuable commodity, was close to doubled in the final package, and the economics of some of the land conversion proposals that Ng\u0101i Tahu rely upon for their assessment of loss assume water availability for dairy conversions that is by no means certain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e26c1d8e074f229daa04788696d6f4\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry to suggest that the scheme could leave the Crown open to substantial claims, because the value of the land handed to iwi under Treaty of Waitangi settlements could be substantially decreased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cacced807854ec5b92b3c157f6a42a9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the assertion in that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226712f662e90a47d5bf503c08747dd735\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What assurance can the Minister provide tangata whenua that the provisions of the bill relating to pre-1990 forested M\u0101ori land are not a confiscation contrary to the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi, and are not ultra vires to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993, when the owners\u2019 submissions have advised the House that the scheme is an alienation without their required consent of 75 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c4100d105f433bb506c89f5c4e6c65\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: A large number of iwi have exactly the opposite view, and believe that the compensation package under the emissions trading scheme is a net benefit to them rather than a net cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cce147e6a884ae08c064c6bcf028ba8\u0022\u003ESerious Fraud Office Investigation\u2014National Party Awareness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf9025644d2445c3838571bd402b5043\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement in relation to the National Party that \u201Cit\u2019s almost certain they got a tip from the Serious Fraud Office that it was about to move\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002235828a51f43c4ceba81fef22ec637a41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235828a51f43c4ceba81fef22ec637a41\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E As has been widely reported in the media, gossip was rife in Wellington by last Tuesday night that the Serious Fraud Office was poised to announce a formal investigation. I have little doubt that the National Party was aware of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0147b6a76b46e5bb58587fa89775e8\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence does the Prime Minister have, given that she said she is not dealing in rumour, that the Serious Fraud Office, Crown Law, or the police leaked material to the Opposition; if she cannot produce any such evidence, will she apologise to those bodies for besmirching their good reputations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270748904bbc24aac9aef53fef4a5f48e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Somebody somewhere in the government system had to be responsible for this matter leaking out into the public arena. We know that rumours were widely circulating at a function on the Tuesday night that many National MPs attended, and I find it interesting that Mr Key moved the next day, telling his colleagues that time was of the essence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccfc6c7664854b1f88cb9998ea18517e\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that it is a very serious matter for the Prime Minister to accuse the Serious Fraud Office of acting improperly, at a time when that agency is investigating a political party with which she is in a governing relationship and whose leader was her Minister of Foreign Affairs; and can she explain exactly on what basis she made these outrageous and unfair accusations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad31345b10b4ece931163111bfcb694\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I find it impossible to believe that the timing was a coincidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219c50e08aa094c6cb80cd4303523a968\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that, in fact, two members of this House were tipped off in advance that the Serious Fraud Office was about to commence its investigation, and that those two members were the Rt Hon Helen Clark and the Hon Dr Michael Cullen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc352dbe6e14cffbb44514e6e015f4b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; at 5 o\u2019clock on Wednesday, after Mr Key had done his grandstanding. I can assure him that neither of us was the source of his information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d9085c726d448d8569be583711901f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister also confirm that, on the basis of this knowledge, she decided to reveal what she had been hiding since February\u2014that Mr Glenn had told her that Mr Peters had asked him for a donation\u2014knowing that the only thing that would push such a startling confession from the headlines was the announcement of the Serious Fraud Office investigation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297355ced049b436fa018b6e6722940d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I know that Mr Key and Mr English very seldom speak or share any confidence, but I advise Mr Key that Mr English himself raised the question, to which I responded, in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad7a0b861dac47689c22602ae7402d10\u0022\u003EBroadband\u2014Uptake\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E5. SUE MORONEY (Labour) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b087587e9654ddcbbdc4355867906b1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: What reports has he received on reaction to proposals to extend high-speed broadband uptake in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3ea7d843b0d4e638d69e106334751bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3ea7d843b0d4e638d69e106334751bf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Labour\u2019s plan to ensure that all New Zealanders have access to faster, cheaper broadband has been widely welcomed. Michael Cranna, the managing director of broadband performance measurement company Epitro, called our plans \u201Cambitious but achievable\u201D. Ernie Newman of the Telecommunications Users Association of New Zealand said the Government\u2019s scheme is \u201Cparticularly focused on rural people and we think that is a good move\u201D. Media are also heralding the arrival of a third mobile player, with Telstra announcing expanded operations this week. I understand that the National Party spokesman on telecommunications is not allowed to comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f98cf3487b4a41f1a253bdb5f7f6354d\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports on reaction to alternative proposals to extend broadband uptake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022133e4a4d932d4b9cb69fab682e60f759\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. This morning I saw another report criticising the National Party\u2019s broadband policy as \u201Cpolitical opportunism and a lot of hype\u201D. That report was from the chief executive of the No. 3 telecommunications company, TelstraClear\u2019s Allan Freeth, who stated that Kiwis know where they stand with Labour\u2014unlike with National, which now says that it could be up to a year after the election before we know what it would actually do. Labour tells the public before the election. Labour\u2019s plan is working. There is $3 billion of investment, with another $1.5 billion leveraged by our funding. The Labour-led Government is committed to encouraging real competition, not a monopoly utility. I seek leave to table a newspaper article with today\u2019s date from TelstraClear noting that the National Party plan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229761ba468afb4347a9a436982d3221b3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a32aaf87b5034b478395a2f973aa3fb6\u0022\u003EHospitals\u2014Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227433da7e9f964fd8a4b04507cef41b6c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he satisfied that as this Government\u2019s parliamentary term comes to an end, New Zealanders are getting the hospital services they can reasonably expect; and why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00224bab7ca894ff4fabab7dfd01d8e2d853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bab7ca894ff4fabab7dfd01d8e2d853\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am satisfied that New Zealanders would be far better off with having this Labour-led Government re-elected in a few months\u2019 time than they would be if National were to ever get hold of the Treasury benches and have the opportunity to ram through its secret privatisation and health cuts agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa983f5638940f882dbe156c76dcb25\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why, after 9 years of a Labour Government and a doubling of the health budget, are New Zealanders\u2019 chances of getting lifesaving heart surgery significantly lower than those of people in other countries, and why does the Minister\u2019s own ministry say that because New Zealand is not providing clinically acceptable levels of heart surgery, some patients will die?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537bc80d87cb4ddcbd7955c3dfa60852\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: When this Government finds issues in the health system, as in other portfolios, we front up to them, we fix them, and we move forward. That is why I met last week with the cardiac services review group and why we are putting in place a comprehensive plan to upgrade New Zealand\u2019s cardiac services. It is why I know that the Capital and Coast District Health Board is also taking extraordinary measures to shorten a waiting list that has built up over a long period of time, but which we are now dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022808125e5e9e34604969a9da50ba8330a\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports suggesting that New Zealanders now have better access to health care than they did when Labour became the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66e4c917c7545ca96d280aed3a1b5d1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. Under Labour the average cost of seeing a general practitioner is now just $26 nationwide. A million Kiwis pay no more than $15.50. A young family\u2019s annual cost of going to a general practitioner has fallen from about $750 a year under National to about $200. An older couple who used to pay about $780 a year now pays about $340 a year. The cost of prescription medicines has been cut to no more than $3. While National is stuck back in the 1990s, we are making real progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8073f312a34fffac1be703f14ceff4\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that New Zealanders can expect a better, faster, more convenient public health service without additional taxpayer investment and/or extensive privatisation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a21f1ba729cf42539075ec162a622d72\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that Labour\u2019s track record speaks for itself. We are committed to increasing the public investment in our public health system, unlike the National Party, which wants to privatise it so that big business can make a profit from sickness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022909a49f9322842adad508e268493d93c\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that this Labour-led Government has undertaken the largest hospital building programme in New Zealand\u2019s history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422a113a597a458c921f5d239bb0c685\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. This Government has built seven new hospitals, done eight major upgrades, and built 10 new specialist facilities. We have three hospital redevelopments almost complete, including Waikato Hospital, and four more are under way. This Labour-led Government is committed to public investment in health care, not to creating profit-making opportunities for the National Party\u2019s big-business backers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e5de6e5cd404a71b18d5c295423272e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister proud that the Labour Government is leaving a legacy of dangerous workforce shortages in the health sector, like that at Christchurch Hospital, which is suffering a shortage of over 210 nurses, resulting in bed closures and hospital gridlock in the South Island\u2019s major public hospital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c43c8017f584ff9b9255e2ada50549c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: While the rest of the country is dealing with a high level of winter flu and other demands on the health system and clinicians are working overtime, all we get from the Opposition is it decrying what is, in effect, a global shortage of nurses. It simply cannot have it both ways. It criticises the Government for paying more to nurses, then it criticises the Government when there are still occasional shortages. What is National\u2019s policy: another empty discussion document, or a leaked Merrill Lynch paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022814629cc8c4547eb9d0f1de3ce0e96cd\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he proud that the Government is leaving a legacy of hospitals that are going into code purple overload\u2014such as Waikato Hospital, which was 109 percent full yesterday\u2014putting surgery and patients at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c6c1337aab46fdbd95924dea82bc5f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: That is patently ridiculous. The Government is in the middle of investing $214 million in upgrading Waikato Hospital. That member complains because it is the end of winter, people have flu, and the hospital is full. Here is a news flash to the member opposite: Governments do not control viruses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d912906903b54798a80c90025b03467d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that despite his excuses and the valiant efforts of overworked staff, the legacy of that Government is hospitals that are lurching from crisis to crisis and failing to meet even the most reasonable needs of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220345287092374ee6b4e02e99123b9a7e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is getting desperate now. He simply cannot have it both ways. Either the Government has failed to invest or we have invested too much, depending on which day of the week one takes his questions. He is arguing from both sides of that street. The Government has roughly doubled the investment in public health care. It has built a record number of new facilities. It has invested in the health workforce. It has developed a primary-care strategy, and it has upgraded technologies throughout the system. There is a systematic upgrade occurring of New Zealand\u2019s public health care, and the member knows New Zealanders have better, more affordable, more accessible health care as a result of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d764946be9e14b6b942fec6fd3851ac3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Although the Minister says this was ridiculous, I seek leave to table the press statement from the Waikato District Health Board stating that the hospital was 109 percent full yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271daaef778bd415794981c4bda523237\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022206e6cb371ff4d68a84261a7f8608747\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just want to clarify that it was not Waikato Hospital but the member that I thought was ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022133b2453a8f84224baacff9595e15368\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. That is what creates disorder in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b9ee404ed0944a2956c4694a076408d\u0022\u003ETelevision New Zealand\u2014Recording\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afaf7b533ab84c409784614c6014330f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Broadcasting: Would he expect to be advised by TVNZ if TVNZ recorded allegations of illegal behaviour; and has he received any such advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002252b2fe1832124ad2946078dfd0cfbf0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252b2fe1832124ad2946078dfd0cfbf0c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Broadcasting):\u003C/span\u003E No and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da86fbcc59fb4ac486d7e8d924621ad9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen or had any reports on the New Zealand blog Whale Oil Beef Hooked at www.whaleoil.co.nz that contains a 2004 Television New Zealand (TVNZ) interview by Brent Fraser, where a former fisheries skipper, Wayne Crapper, explains how Peter Simunovich\u2019s boss and his lawyer coached him to lie to the scampi inquiry, and to perjure himself in an affidavit; would he expect to have been advised of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de88ee2a78e9479d959d784006f7b749\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: If that member wishes to trawl websites on political matters, can I recommend he go to 08wire.org and view John\u2019s Got a Crush on Obama.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b02b7e9888c44d9d9d0911b19258849b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. [Interruption] Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea11380b59545e485c3050e26465c0a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order are heard in silence!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdd199389db44b4a76f9ee7002bbbe3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I fail to see how a reference to another blog could, in any way, shape, or form, be an answer to the question of whether the Minister had seen or had any reports on a blog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230494478baf340d6ae0175e4c5ded9f0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I indicated that I preferred the other site.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db8a95fe3ee4ea7a0fdeb17d09791ff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not be satisfied with the answer, and others will judge the quality of it, but it was addressing the question of blogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278263b9b9c3e43d9a6a1e890c59454c4\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister look further into Mr Hide\u2019s allegations last week that TVNZ had destroyed the tapes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c6d0818e5a844d283b5722d285cfabd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have received an assurance from TVNZ that no tapes were destroyed, and that various tapes on this matter are held at TVNZ and at Simpson Grierson. I look forward\u2014I must say more in hope than in expectation\u2014to Mr Hide apologising for misleading the House again last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204eb5364288d41faace8ac23d326605d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has TVNZ advised him that in the tape that it ordered destroyed in the newsroom but has kept on a shelf\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d00ca617c94aeba15eddd2ca65946a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please continue his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222033b503722f49b49575ffc1be84a01c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has TVNZ advised him that on this tape it is alleged that Parliament was lied to, that witnesses were coached to lie, that at stake was an inquiry that cost tens of millions of dollars, involving $140 million of quota\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4d00637a4f44ca9d08ca4df0b9e984\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It seems to me, from listening to this supplementary question\u2014and I have let it run for a little while\u2014that it is now traversing the same ground that has been previously the subject of points of order in relation to matters being sub judice. My understanding is that Simunovich Fisheries is still suing TVNZ, and, presumably, this matter is all part of the evidence in that particular case. If that is so, then we should not be traversing it\u2014not to mention that the Minister has already argued and noted that he has not actually received any material relating to allegations of criminal behaviour, so the supplementary questions are scarcely able to elucidate that particular answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f5e2e28b5c4c99ab332a0d02d95811\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I can confirm that I am advised that TVNZ is involved in live civil proceedings: Simunovich Fisheries Ltd and others v Television New Zealand and others, as well as the related live proceedings Peters v Television New Zealand and others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e21207cf412d4e8a9572cb5bbab2b69e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think if the matters are before the court and are live\u2014and I understand that there are defamation proceedings\u2014the member is perfectly entitled to ask general questions, as he knows and as he has been told before, but not to repeat specific allegations that have been made by others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baac3b163d5d4f4c859c49a1f5d4cbf3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister expect to be advised by TVNZ that it had evidence that Parliament had been misled in a systematic and conspiratorial way; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022934a0414fb3646d7932fc8ed938dff70\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No; because if it is a programming matter, advising me would be a breach of the Television New Zealand Act 2003. If that member wants Ministers to be involved in approval of news reporting, he should go live in Zimbabwe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab58d2b234454f40b1caf85247f3fccf\u0022\u003ECriminal Justice System\u2014Prison Populations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bdcdd80e73a45c9b22b8634c4a2ec4b\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement with regard to the rising prison population that \u201CThe criminal justice system cannot go on as it is\u201D; if so, why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002213baf0693b7d4bac80491fb7634f6730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213baf0693b7d4bac80491fb7634f6730\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; over the last 8 years New Zealand\u2019s prison population has increased by about 71 percent, which is an enormous increase. That figure reflects tough laws against criminals. It reflects the biggest-ever increase in policing numbers in New Zealand\u2014things that never happened under the member\u2019s National Government. The system has responded to that increase by creating an additional 2,345 beds. That comes at a cost of about a billion dollars and around $200 million in annual operating costs. The Prime Minister is quite right in saying that imprisonment cannot be the sole solution to making the community safer. Labour has always said that cracking down on crime has to be accompanied by addressing the causes of crime, and the Prime Minister\u2019s announcement at the time\u2014of effective interventions\u2014is designed to do just that and has been successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ed930346884ef8a45cecf531f52d91\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does he share the view of his Cabinet colleague Shane Jones, who was reported in the Northland Age as saying that he wanted the Government to wage war on gangs but \u201Cdid not except to receive much support from his party for a more direct approach\u201D and was \u201Cafraid that just effective measures were not likely to please some of his colleagues.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022677d38591ddc41089d3e5842d41822db\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Every member of our caucus is committed to voting for the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill, which is currently before Parliament. That will take the toughest-ever action in reversing the onus of proof against gangs and effectively confiscating their assets. That speaks for itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6cef44e39ff4bc1b5cbddf1cfae3db3\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What would be the impact on prison numbers and costs if parole was abolished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52be1ce0e9248558b4edcb31d1e7f96\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The impact would be huge in both respects. As it is, with the continuing rise in prison numbers and the need for modernisation, the country will have to spend some hundreds of millions of dollars on prisons. If we were to abolish parole, I am informed by the Department of Corrections that that would require an additional 2,200 beds, capital spending of more than $1.3 billion, and ongoing costs of around $233 million a year. So when the National Party implies it would abolish parole but never quite commits itself, it needs to explain whether it will pay for that by abolishing tax cuts; by borrowing money, which it has promised to do; or by cutting spending on health and education. The truth is that National is making a promise in that regard that it intends to dishonour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1c7f3cba2f47a4a082ea6a8babfd1b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with his colleague Russell Fairbrother who said, when speaking on behalf of a group calling itself The Really Sensible Sentencing Trust, that common thieves, taggers, and disqualified drivers do not deserve to be locked up and instead should be \u201Csupported in the community with taxpayer funds.\u201D; and can we expect to see that rolled out as Labour Party policy during election time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c32e1c5c5db244948c6aa80046456d7b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member is well aware of the tougher measures against tagging that have been passed by this House and launched by the Prime Minister. But I do not think that even the rednecks in the National Party are advocating that we should be locking up 14-year-olds in prison for tagging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5b09de0fe3b490fa6dd27e546bc85e4\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: In what ways has the Government moved to toughen laws against serious offenders, as the Minister suggested in his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f9e9c6bf5e46849e4467044aa99bfe\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There is a whole series of measures. The Bail Act in 2000, for example, reversed the onus of proof so that recidivist offenders had to prove to the court why they should be bailed, rather than the police having to prove to the court why they should not. The Sentencing Act increased from 10 to 17 years the minimum period of time before parole faced by an aggravated murderer. It also resulted in the time actually spent in prison by convicted sexual violators going up by 40 percent, and in people convicted of serious assault spending 70 percent of their sentence in jail not 50 percent. Finally, before I exhaust your patience, Madam Speaker, the Parole Act requires the paramount consideration to be the safety of the community, which is why the Parole Board is now declining 72 percent of applications, not the 50 percent it used to under a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7c186a555248cf8be9be276d2ba560\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the following statement: \u201CWe have candidates saying that we have to lock them up for longer, and that we have to have more police to lock them up, then saying the prison numbers are going up too much. We can\u2019t have it both ways.\u201D, and does not what he said on 2 June 1994 describe Labour\u2019s own confusion on law and order policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea47e0c8dcd94a5a9d28d425c2a4cfe0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There is absolutely no confusion in Labour\u2019s policy. We are not slippery like the National Party. It is quite clear, as I said earlier, that this Government has taken a tougher position on law and order issues. That is why the prison\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a67310b052474dc886262e83cd697deb\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3dbf9d5a3fb454e9c98ec41abe20bcc\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Members can laugh, but that is why the prison population has gone up by 71 percent. It is equally clear that this Government is committed to addressing the causes of crime, which is what Effective Interventions is doing very effectively right now\u2014it is both aiming at reducing offending and is successfully reducing reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122bfed7133e48278ba2fe9d6e36180b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that when he was asked to report to Cabinet in March 2005 on credible options for reducing the prison population, he rejected the use of electronic bail, rejected the expansion of home detention, and rejected sentencing guidelines and lowering maximum sentences; and can he also confirm that all of these have since been introduced after he was moved on as Minister of Justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae09e832d43d4efa802748583f8c730e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to do his homework a little better than that, quite frankly. Electronic monitoring of bail has changed, and it has changed because we now have the technological equipment to do that effectively. What I find strange about the member is that one day he stood up in this House and said that there were only 26 on it and it was far too few, and when he found out that he was wrong and it was four times that much, he said that there were far too many on it and it was dangerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022291b341fcc23408e88bd66c3e9664b74\u0022\u003EAuckland Hospital\u2014Acute Psychiatric Unit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bfcb4aa9da0489f8626fe038bbfcfa7\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What steps, if any, is the Minister taking to ensure the safety and well-being of patients at Auckland City Hospital\u2019s acute psychiatric unit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00225e297937639f4d509b8e4d39439d7f9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e297937639f4d509b8e4d39439d7f9d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am satisfied that following an independent review earlier this year, Auckland District Health Board has begun making extensive changes to its adult mental health services to improve the safety and well-being of patients. These include appointing a new head of psychiatry in the department, extensive changes to nursing accountabilities and rosters, and new reporting mechanisms through to the Ministry of Health, which will follow up on the full implementation of the recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258186242a3f746c580f411a319def84e\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the man whose body was found floating under Wynyard Wharf in Auckland on Sunday, 17 August had been discharged from Auckland City Hospital\u2019s acute psychiatric unit very shortly before he died?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a76cf947f8461e8846604c0adaf295\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I have received no specific briefing on the identity of that gentleman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af6857a984654f508dfacab66207d8a6\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think it acceptable that despite the small number of changes he outlined in his earlier answer, Te Whetu Tawera continues to deal with patient safety and releases inappropriately, and what action will he take to ensure incidents like this latest one will not happen again; does he really think that changing the designations of nurses and changing a few rosters will deal with the seriousness of the situation in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022551bfb7e7ec2407e97ce1c8aafd5bef3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I hope the member will forgive me if I did not capture in one answer to a parliamentary question all of the changes that are being made. Very significant changes are being made in those mental health services, and they include a full review of the security arrangements\u2014including the discharge arrangements\u2014for patients needing supervision. I have also further given a commitment to the member that I will expect the full implementation of recommendations from the independent review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c52457748cb4bfeb19a4154dddbb0b9\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have any longer-term strategies in Auckland to ensure that there are more spaces available in quality rehabilitation units\u2014at the moment there is only one\u2014and that there is sufficient step-down accommodation, community support, and accommodation services for patients such as the gentleman who was recently released in these circumstances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992aefaf3c1f406c868da5d27fa6fd0b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I am advised that there are further increases in the community-based acute mental health provision following from that review, and also that there are enhancements to the cultural training and practice of staff at Auckland mental health services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f0dfc2554c24ce79d3c9aaf03125fea\u0022\u003EIncandescent Light Bulbs\u2014Minimum Energy Performance Standards\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb893c8405154b3ca3484721bcc8213a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: Does the Government still intend to introduce minimum energy performance standards for incandescent light bulbs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00226bf5c133e7c144489deef5af58027acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bf5c133e7c144489deef5af58027acc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The standard is for all lighting, not just for incandescent light bulbs. Under CER, together with Australia, we ensure a wide range of imported electrical goods meet prudent energy-efficiency standards. The standards for energy-efficient light bulbs are scheduled for October 2009.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec17589144547e7bcdeefb4f9a91eef\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister telling the House and the hundreds\u2014thousands, in fact\u2014of New Zealanders who are storing up incandescent light bulbs that he has to go ahead with this because the Australians have told him to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba26cdb0f834592a7feb7636a60970b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not. Also, contrary to the member\u2019s other assertions, these standards do not force consumers to use compact fluorescent light bulbs. There is a range of choice other than the compact fluorescent light bulbs, including more energy-efficient halogen bulbs that look identical to the traditional incandescent bulbs but still save power. Also, incandescent bulbs will still be available where there is not a range of cost-effective energy-efficient alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b609f921994d4ea7df1c1dcd93a1a1\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a William Sio\u003C/span\u003E: What savings to consumers are likely to result from the change to energy-efficient light bulbs, and are these in addition to the savings from the $1 billion energy saver fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd6926bf1ffb4b55bfb87a5a984a2124\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Each year New Zealanders spend around $660 million on electricity for lighting. Changing to more efficient bulbs is expected to help New Zealanders save hundreds of millions of dollars. For the individual homeowner, replacing the four most-used incandescent bulbs with the most energy-efficient bulbs saves around $50 a year, and if one changes the whole household the saving is around $140 a year. These savings are separate from the $1 billion efficiency fund savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e4307aeacf24f1a98b85e1021de3943\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If energy-efficient light bulbs\u2014[Interruption] He certainly was not talking about the Labour backbench when he was talking about a bright future. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac1a8fc9772a4794b711ff77e79c2524\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022686b47a23c26459bb9b59944eb3e8550\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88d0a0906ee42389dab8d9b7298f983\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, we will have the question in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91b76ce7ed54f0abe9d2536221a30d7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to ask all the questions if we just get a bit of order around here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ebc0ae4914464d9d0e27497aa52322\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7885d720a184ebe9fdce7f2c7f7d491\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If energy saving light bulbs are so brilliant at saving money, why is there a necessity for the Government to ban other sorts of light bulbs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4c244aa68014dcfbac8598d0982c0a4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The old-fashioned incandescent bulbs are a bit like the National Party: 95 percent of the energy is wasted as heat. New technology light bulbs use a far higher proportion of the energy for light.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d381d27b664a31aab7e29db04b2a53\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm reports that his Labour colleagues have been asking him to change his mind on the ban on incandescent light bulbs because they are receiving calls from their constituents bemoaning the Government\u2019s nanny State mentality; and when will he decide to drop this foolish ban, given that he has just said people can save money if they make the choice themselves? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb85adf24153434589b421c291cd65c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Quite the contrary\u2014members on this side like to help New Zealanders have lower power bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c511d2d9484a483db6b0532fd0c29691\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister had any calls from his colleagues to reverse the energy-efficiency standards for refrigerators, washing machines, air conditioners, and several dozen household appliances that have been coming in over the last 7 years; if not, why is it that New Zealanders were not able to access those cost savings without a standard actually being put in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8353e6f414454db06301781791de66\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have not heard even the National Party calling for the reversal of those standards, which are identical in principle, and were it not for the standards that this Government has introduced in concert with the Australian Government, New Zealanders would be wasting a lot more money on electricity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f14cc55b85d848508fcf2c368773194c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that although energy efficiency is important and something to be strived for, it is also important to take the public along with him, otherwise the whole aim of the policy is undermined because of the backlash it causes; if so, why will he not listen to what the public are telling him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0130b8d314b431d878370e0ea6f60bd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: There have been two or three underlying issues for the public, which have been based on misrepresentations of what we are doing. One of them was a concern that these things are ugly. We have now shown that there are alternatives for those who do not like the curly shapes of some the compact fluorescent light bulbs, and there are similarly good explanations in respect of other issues. The assertion that there is a fire risk in respect of these things has been well and truly disproved. There are approximately 13 million compact fluorescent light bulbs in New Zealand, and overall they reduce fire risk because they run at lower temperatures than traditional incandescent bulbs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247fc14f3c61b484da5452ebc3f3baf14\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall the Labour Government\u2019s 1975 policy of banning cats in dairies, which caused a huge public backlash, and does he see that his ban on incandescent light bulbs is heading Labour towards exactly the same position? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733efd01f5e14a76aad063a100c60bbf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The best retort to that particular allegation came from Dr Cullen a few weeks ago when Mr Brownlee was talking about the nanograms of mercury in fluorescent lamps, when he said \u201CYou are accusing us of being the nanogram State.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af90dc8282fc4f9595ecdc59b63ef286\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh dear\u2014I am not sure what it is about light bulbs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002257eb1f15be7b4202b642444f514a51c8\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Scheme\u2014Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff2d60fa5d94c19b93ccc38b31e80a6\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Has she received any reports from medical professionals about potential changes to the accident compensation system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022b48fce183bed46819573e84179dfb8c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b48fce183bed46819573e84179dfb8c1\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I have seen a report from an overwhelming number of medical professionals, including physiotherapists, podiatrists, and osteopaths, who describe patients\u2019 experiences of National\u2019s previous privatisation of accident compensation as a nightmare, a disaster, chaotic, and confusing. If the public does not want it and experts do not want it, then just who is National\u2019s privatisation plan meant to benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8be9656f634b0cb89c9e7ccc75612f\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any research on which groups are likely to miss out on cover for their injuries, under a privatised scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ba2dc4559948eabb77750996c32518\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Australian research shows that those in the lower socio-economic groups are, unsurprisingly, more often uninsured or underinsured and do not pursue compensation through the legal system because they cannot afford it. John Key is not listening to the professionals or to patients about how privatisation will affect ordinary Kiwis. In fact, to paraphrase Barack Obama, it is not just because John Key does not care; it is because John Key does not get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022110062dc26674352a1c1f0349d497d8c\u0022\u003EPassports\u2014Microchips\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c599dd31c64945ade0a61c79f01248\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Is he satisfied that the new passport microchips are tamper-proof; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5bbbb422a2343048b00615ca0ff76cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5bbbb422a2343048b00615ca0ff76cf\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E No passport could be tamper-proof. Tampering with a passport does not mean that the passport can be credibly forged. Any attempt to tamper with the chip in an e-passport will be detected when the e-passport is presented to border control authorities. A microchip is only one of the security features in an e-passport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229299c449766f40d68afc75fcec98b63e\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen reports that Auckland University researcher Peter Gutmann and a group of computer experts have cracked the chip, and described the security flaws as serious, and will the Minister ask his department to report on the integrity of the chip, which stores digital information on the new passports; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0a88df56c8495e950a977957851fe4\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen the reports, I have asked my department for a report, and I can assure the member and the House that the passport chip has not been cracked. What they have done is to clone some elements of the passport, but that they have been able to clone it does not mean to say that they then can pass the information off as genuine, because the security codes that go with it, necessary for it to be a genuine passport, and read as such, were not present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08fabcb32ce41df87a0b2dd57289231\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House or explain how the Government is improving passport security, generally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022736976914e7044b1a6655b26ea1656f4\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: This morning I unveiled a new passport design cover, which I have here, which adds to a much better-looking passport for Kiwis, and I can assure the House that the new passport will have better security features physically, and in the chip as well. So there is a good-looking, new passport on the way with much better security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b41b204151f40ed9349f5a1ba026458\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it acceptable that the passport microchips are \u201Cembarrassingly simple to hack into\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6b092893354fd596d240059a34151f\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: People have over-egged their claims for a gullible audience before today. I want to assure the member that that is not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229349a0221bf04103a50ab1ec35fb4521\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In line with your ruling in the House the other day, we will take one of our Thursday supplementary questions, if that is all right, and offer it to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b81efee45b054dfab1cf5d2151019547\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, since I made sure he got a copy of the ruling, that applies only to the smaller parties that are specifically named. So I am sorry that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6a36acfa904ef5a7d9994bab00307d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why is that? [Interruption] I see, you are just acknowledging that that is a fundamental unfairness approved by the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb65913219674eb3bc34c3fbafb0f18d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is being silly. This matter has been discussed, and it is for the obvious reason that the smaller parties get very, very few supplementary questions. At times they have a question and they wish for the opportunity to exercise their freedom of speech, which we hear so much about and which we do try to ensure happens in this House. It has been a rule for over 3 years or so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f38c5fde3cf4189b140520a8811b5d8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The smaller parties have every opportunity to get more questions in the House, simply by getting more members here. To say that our opportunities will be curtailed, simply because of some fairness to the small parties, is, I think, quite wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3481bc207e44e269a7eab831df582bd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Brownlee. I have ruled on the matter, and that is the end of it. I suggest if you wish to change it, that you bring the matter up at the Business Committee. That will be an opportunity to be able to establish a new rule; but meanwhile, that is what has been decided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca7d41328eb4e8486e4151c1fbcceeb\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to ask a further supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ab5c3f24764e22b977ebf54cf4923b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c01521e0f1141f09443f290a04bdb9b\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the press release, dated 3 November 2005, which stated: \u201CNZ passports to contain security chip\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb6031c5fbf474fbfd30a2e66d04481\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022946779e6c5af4537ad0908450aefa1f3\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Sunday Star-Times 17 August 2008 release: \u201CKiwi \u2018geek\u2019 cracks passport\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9af245b3b2547b8b830cfb23da94ae0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7777118dcce48de9f4f16a435af402d\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table today\u2019s press release by the Minister saying that the New Zealand passport is one of the most trusted passports\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa179b691894be691f721f7df90b5ef\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7773c2e490f4e0ba70811128c9b430c\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a question provided today: how does he reconcile\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a81e5013696742e8bb685aedf2f34a15\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cc6cf59f5df4e158797abaceed12ed8\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022153bfe29afc3439db8f74a9b56bc3831\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u2014Donations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002229b0d05714fa4b0cb160054d4f50d7ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229b0d05714fa4b0cb160054d4f50d7ae\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received two letters from Rodney Hide seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 the stepping aside of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the announcement that the Serious Fraud Office is to undertake an investigation into donations made to the New Zealand First Party. These are both particular cases of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibilities. The applications are interrelated, and I shall deal with them together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ENot every ministerial resignation, much less a stepping aside, would justify an urgent debate\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 166/5. In this case a Minister has stood aside while an inquiry is held into allegations that do not relate to official actions taken by the Minister. The matter is obviously not concluded. When the investigation is reported members will have an opportunity to raise its conclusions if this is warranted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EFurthermore, the Privileges Committee is also carrying out an inquiry into a related question of privilege. When the committee reports there will be an opportunity for a debate. As the matter has a way to run, and as last week three questions for oral answer specifically addressed confidence in the Minister of Foreign Affairs\u2014and there was a further one today\u2014I do not consider it requires the immediate attention of the House by way of an urgent debate today. That does not preclude an urgent debate in the future depending on the outcome of events. The applications are, therefore, declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebc7a5bafaf342f0aed88eb16446d8a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebc7a5bafaf342f0aed88eb16446d8a5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I accept your ruling, of course, but I find it a difficult one to accept. We are in the last days of Parliament, we have a case that is certainly consuming the nation and is of great concern to New Zealanders, and this will be the last opportunity that we get to debate this issue before Parliament rises. You say in defence of your ruling that there were three questions for oral answer addressing confidence in the Minister. They were not questions from me; they were questions from another political party. The point of an urgent debate is that this is a matter that concerns the whole House. If having a Minister of Foreign Affairs under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office having to step aside is not a matter of urgent debate, of concern to the public, heaven knows what possibly could be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225568291df1f04607b9d8351fa431d9dc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member and I suggest the member has the opportunity to read the full ruling. There will be other opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022805286cc46f34076bee524ebccf645bc\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022891f823f7044462b880e02a1604c235b\u0022\u003EClimate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill\u2014Referral of Bill and S.O.Ps to Finance and Expenditure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022764c8732ab4847a18f69997ec6865982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022764c8732ab4847a18f69997ec6865982\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. On the very large emissions trading bill, on which we have had three major Supplementary Order Papers with a total of over 780 amendments, I have two points I wish to raise. The first is in respect of Standing Order 258, \u201CExplanatory notes\u201D. It seems extraordinary to me that Parliament, on the most important bill of this term, has received these very large Supplementary Order Papers from the Minister that contain no more of an explanatory note than the statement \u201CThis Supplementary Order Paper amends\u201D the climate change bill. We are being asked to consider 785 amendments, with no more of an explanation than that they amend the climate change bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMy second point is that in the wake of that, I wish to move a motion that the bill and the Supplementary Order Papers be referred back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I seek leave to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a8693c150f42d1a889d12cb432a122\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de3aaaf7df774489b508ba3b16a798c6\u0022\u003EClimate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff2218866dfe40408fb0d877df88cb2e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e94afdc790704e77b773dac512a75bdc\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Climate Change Response Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00226633cc6b478242e294d45e74a6a6072b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226633cc6b478242e294d45e74a6a6072b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E What is being done in this Parliament this afternoon is both irresponsible and reckless. The issue of climate change and the introduction in New Zealand of an emissions trading system, as set out in the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, are amongst the most important issues and bills of our time. For the Minister to announce today another 785 amendments, after issuing 1,000 amendments 2 days before the deliberation on the bill at the Finance and Expenditure Committee and assuring the members of the committee that those were all, and that things were all OK, is nothing less than reckless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe need to understand how big this bill is. It is certainly the biggest bill that has been dealt with in this term of Parliament. It is certainly a bill with huge implications for every household and its cost of living, and for every business out there, whether it be in our important agricultural, forestry, or fishing sectors\u2014right across the board. For the Minister to expect this Parliament to digest and get right 785 amendments is treating this Parliament as a joke. How many members of the Government will have even read these 785 changes? I bet members there are none. How can this Parliament have any confidence that we are going to get the key elements of a complex emissions trading system right, when the Government dumps so many amendments on this Parliament in that sort of way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe reality of this emissions trading legislation is that the Government itself has deferred its implementation for 2 years. The only reason that Parliament is under some mad rush to pass this bill is simply to try to save this Government\u2019s bacon in respect of its reputation on climate change. It has been in Government for 9 years, and every single one of its climate change initiatives has failed. The tragedy is that the Government has learnt nothing from those failures. It rushed ahead with the carbon tax, and it failed. It rushed ahead with the Projects to Reduce Emissions programme, and that failed. It rushed ahead with its tax on farmers\u2014colloquially known as the \u201Cfart tax\u201D\u2014and that failed. It rushed ahead to proclaim that its forestry initiative would result in increased forestry; it resulted in the biggest chainsaw massacre in the history of New Zealand. So I plead with the Government, and with the parties that are supporting this bill, to learn from history. When the Government has rushed these measures it has got them wrong, and the very essence of New Zealand\u2019s reputation around climate change has taken a hit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe truth is that in every year of this Government, New Zealand\u2019s emissions have grown and, ironically, have grown faster than almost any other country\u2019s. In some blind way, in these last dying gasps of this Government, it is desperate to pass this very complex legislation without getting the essential detail right. The truth is that in an emissions trading system the attention to detail is very important. It is important because if we get the detail wrong, the emissions trading system will be rorted by those who seek to gain from it. And if that occurs, the most important element of New Zealand\u2019s climate change policy will be dead in the water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo National says to the Government it should not do this to our Parliament and bring New Zealand\u2019s reputation into disrepute with such shonky lawmaking. Why are we looking at hundreds of amendments, without even the basics of an explanatory note as to what the Government seeks to achieve? How can the Minister go around and say he is engaged in good faith with the Opposition in trying to build a consensus, when the Government has not even attempted to provide basic information about the Supplementary Order Papers? The process over this bill is awful. It will result in serious mistakes, and that will cost New Zealanders dearly in terms of both jobs and costs. New Zealand deserves a whole lot better than to have this shabby process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb9b9c1bbb1948f599ef8c3c75d832c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb9b9c1bbb1948f599ef8c3c75d832c5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I support the comments made by our spokesman on climate change, Nick Smith. The emissions trading system is probably the biggest single innovation in public policy for about the last 10 years or so. Parliament is trying to debate the creation of a whole new market in emissions trading permits, essentially, which the public does not understand, and, I venture to suggest, which a good number of politicians do not understand yet, either. Those who have been immersed in this policy-making process for 18 months to 2 years understand it, but other people do not. That is why my colleague drew attention to the fact that there are 750 amendments\u2014in fact, hundreds of pages of amendments\u2014with no description of what they are intended to achieve. That makes a nonsense of this Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI am one of those who sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee and tried to come to grips with the detail of this legislation. At the end of that process, the Government presented us with about a thousand amendments, a number of which it described as technical. I have to say that the select committee members, who sat through a process on which the Government put a great deal of weight, really had no idea what they were doing when, by majority, they voted those amendments into the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Government having put a thousand amendments into the bill at the last moment, with almost no scrutiny of them by the select committee, the next time that Parliament debates this bill\u2014which is now\u2014the Government introduces 750 further amendments. There are 1,750 amendments and no one in Parliament knows what they achieve. I think we should be straight up about that. No one in Parliament knows what they achieve. Even as knowledgable a colleague of mine as Dr Nick Smith, who from the time we received the amendments has spent as much time today looking at them as he could, is struggling to understand how they all fit together. There is absolutely no doubt that almost everyone else in Parliament, except perhaps the co-leader of the Greens Jeanette Fitzsimons, will struggle to understand how they are put together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDoes that matter? Of course it matters. I draw Parliament\u2019s attention to the history in this Chamber of the only legislation I can think of that was similar to this bill in its innovation, and that was the fishing quota legislation that set up individual transferable quotas and all that. In the whole time that I have been in Parliament, which is 17 years, we have barely gone a year without a fisheries amendment bill. In recent months we have actually been debating yet another one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f67981d470424361b9a923a580a99573\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022372bc8963c6a405198ed8fe3d59c75ae\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as the Hon David Carter would be able to tell us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b7b778209284317b2888eff06a53607\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Another two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c944f0188f4412aba5dc9d4e68eaed\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: We have been debating another two fisheries amendment bills over points of law that are directly related to a Minister\u2019s ability to make decisions. This legislation today puts enormous weight on ministerial decision-making and discretion. In my view, it puts far too much weight on them, and that is one of its weaknesses as a public policy. But there is no doubt that what is being done today, driven by the Government\u0027s political interest, is setting this Parliament on a course for an endless procession of amendment bills to try to fix up the mess that Parliament is about to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe should be in no doubt about what is driving this process: Helen Clark is concerned that she may lose the election\u2014and she is even more concerned after the events of the last week or so\u2014and she is trying to ram this legislation through the House at the last minute. It is simply not good enough for the Minister to say that we have spent the last 2 years thinking about it. A small group of officials may have done that, but if we thought that officials should do all the legislating, we would not have a Parliament, at all. We would not even bother to have the select committee process. In fact, what often worries Opposition members on select committees is just how much difference a select committee can make to legislation when the committee is made up of part-time legislators dealing with full-time policy makers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis whole timetable is being driven by the Government\u2019s political needs. The Government has very little to show for its third term in office. Dr Cullen has KiwiSaver to show for it, but that is about it. Not much else has happened of any significance, even though Government members may regard themselves as having been busy. Helen Clark has figured out that, as she faces a potential election loss, she has very little to show for her third term. It is unfortunate for New Zealand that she has decided on the emissions trading system as the thing that she wants to have pushed through before the bell goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00221f7fdba56ae74a84aa49250f6296e38b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f7fdba56ae74a84aa49250f6296e38b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I think I will be the only person speaking in this debate who has any qualifications in environmental science. It is not that that should count, but I think it is significant for what I am about to say\u2014that is, that the entire climate change and global warming hypothesis is a hoax, that the data and the hypothesis do not hold together, that Al Gore is a phoney and a fraud on this issue, and that the emissions trading scheme is a worldwide scam and a swindle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EEnacting this legislation will cost New Zealanders dear\u2014that is the point of it\u2014and it will drive up the cost of basic goods and services for New Zealanders, probably by at least $500 or $600 a year. It will put businesses in New Zealand out of business, and it will put farmers off their farms, and it will do all that for no impact on world weather, for no environmental gain, and for no conceivable advantage to New Zealand or to the world. Yes, it is bad that we are rushing this legislation through in the dying days of a teetering regime, propped up by a Minister of Foreign Affairs who is under investigation for serious and complex fraud. That is bad, but it is the impact that this legislation and this policy will have on New Zealanders that is so truly shocking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAll we have in this is a computer model. That is notoriously difficult, because the answers are written in the assumptions. Let me give members just one example. The problem for the first two reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was what was called the medieval warming period, whereby a thousand years ago the Earth was warmer than it is now. Then, magically, an obscure physicist in the US came up with a new bit of analysis\u2014the \u201Chockey stick\u201D model\u2014that showed world temperature to be flat and then rising dramatically as the world became industrialised. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change grabbed this, put it on the front of its document, and repeated it five times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EResearchers all around the world were puzzled by this, because it did not fit any of their data. Eventually they got hold of that computer model and they discovered that any numbers fed into that model would produce the \u201Chockey stick\u201D. We could take the Wellington telephone directory, feed it into the model that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change used in 2001, and we would get the \u201Chockey stick\u201D, which saw the world and policy makers running scared, and which Al Gore based his movie on. The science was rubbish, because a computer model is not science. Science is about theories, hypotheses, and the testing of those against the facts. That is not what has happened in the basic science here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThat is bad enough, but what is worse is the policy rationale underpinning this legislation. The Minister would come before the Finance and Expenditure Committee and talk about a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D, but when asked, he would say: \u201CYes, there is no cap.\u201D We are creating a market in hot air, without any quantified amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87f46599bff4788a135dec0ee61f2a3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, I just say to members that we have had four speeches and we really have not been talking about the bill. This is the Committee stage. It is not a discussion on climate change per se. It is about Part 1 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbe9ec0d0e27414c8a654f15695ad656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbe9ec0d0e27414c8a654f15695ad656\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is called the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill. I will not talk about the renewable preference bit, but I will certainly talk about climate change and the emissions trading parts of this bill. Concerning climate change itself, I can say that one thing is now clear: it has always been with us. In Roman times wine was grown in the north of England, and there is plenty of historical evidence to support that conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThere is also significant evidence of what causes climate change. I went to a seminar in the United States in 2006, where I talked to some leading climate change scientists and also to some scientists from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, who perhaps do not come into that category but nevertheless are some of the best brains in the world. They were of the view that the main driver of climate change is actually solar. Therefore, it is not man-made. If it were man-made, then it would be very difficult to explain\u2014as Rodney Hide alluded to\u2014the medieval warming period and the period in Roman times that I referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnlike Rodney Hide, I am not a climate change scientist. Therefore, my approach to this issue, as it would be with many others in this Committee, is to get the very best scientific explanation that we can from a number of sources that an increase in global warming is or is not due to increasing levels of emissions. Whether those emissions are carbon-related is, as Rodney Hide has said, only a hypothesis. It is not fact. It has now been discovered that an increase in carbon levels over thousands of years follows a warming in the climate. [Interruption] Yes, Madam Chairperson, I am talking about Part 1. Part 1 is so long and complex that virtually everything I am saying is referred to in it somewhere. I have checked that out, so I am sticking to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a5a0ae7b0043e2af4705e9e0378849\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member refer to the clauses, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa9ea4186314703aa42acfbd76eaae7\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: There are hundreds of them. It would take me 5 minutes to list them. I would just ask for a little bit of leniency, given the complexity of this whole matter. There are definitions and all kinds of things in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe conventional wisdom in recent years has been that global warming follows increasing levels of carbon. If that is the case, then we would also expect Mars, for example, not to have had any change at all in its climate over many years because there is no carbon up there to emit. But, in fact, Mars is warming, as is Earth. Therefore, there is a link back to the sun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThis bill raises some very serious issues for New Zealand. If it is fundamentally flawed, then we are indeed imposing on our fellow citizens enormous additional costs, with no clear evidence at all, in my view, that it will make one iota of difference to the warming of the climate we are seeing at the moment. That really is a good reason for us to proceed with a great deal of caution. Personally, I find it difficult to separate the scientific facts from the politics in this matter. When New Zealand initially signed the Kyoto Protocol\u2014which led to this bill in the first place\u2014we thought we were on a $500 million windfall, and that $500 million would be paid across to New Zealand. In fact, we found out later that that was wrong, and now we are in hock to the tune of about $1 billion, potentially. That figure is growing every day as the price of carbon goes up. It seems to me that it is that reality that has driven this bill, rather than the science.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EFrom the scientific advice I have received I think there is a great deal more to be known about this subject before we rush through legislation that we all might live to regret. I think this is a time to be very cautious lest we decide in haste to pass this legislation, only to repent at leisure and, in the meantime, impose unnecessary costs on Kiwi businesses and families at the very time when all of us in this country are already struggling with rising cost levels. Why on earth, in that situation, would we impose extra costs based on dubious outcomes in the future? I hope we are not just chasing the wind and wasting our time and our money\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221439222f7465496e945fd70614d27dc2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Again I make a plea: this is the Committee stage; it is not the first reading, the second reading, or the third reading. We are dealing with the clauses in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00228668f8b550d041f2904c0e7075f4d9e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228668f8b550d041f2904c0e7075f4d9e5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will be speaking specifically to new sections 177A and 177B in \u201CSubpart 4\u2014Agriculture\u201D, of new Part 5, inserted by clause 43 in Part 1. But before I speak specifically to them, I want to make some general comments. This is the most far-reaching piece of legislation we have seen in the House since the reforms of the 1980s, and I think it is totally irresponsible for any members of this Parliament to go through the Ayes lobby and vote for this legislation unless they can put their hands on their hearts and say they actually understand the implications of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI sat through most of the process at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and I have to say that, even as we deliberated, the officials were telling the members of the committee more and more about the detail of how this legislation will ultimately work. What we are seeing today are not the thousand amendments that were presented by the officials at the select committee but an additional 750 amendments that have been put on the Table in the last day or so. We are seeing legislation that no member could say he or she completely understands. If we get it wrong, we put the whole of New Zealand agriculture at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI am talking quite specifically about a relatively small section of Subpart 4, and it has to do with the effect of this legislation on the New Zealand agricultural industry. I do not fully understand the implications, and I defy anybody in the Chamber, including the Minister in the chair, David Parker, to explain it in enough detail for us to understand it. If we get it wrong, we will simply move agricultural production from New Zealand to somewhere offshore. Charles Chauvel laughed about this at the select committee, and he continues to laugh about it today. But I say to that member that the future of New Zealand agriculture is something that certainly worries me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0257887ef24ae7acb43b6f8116d14d\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: No; he\u2019s laughing at you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c54b66e623bd4a3ba1e2378d3a461341\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He is not laughing at me. If he thinks he is laughing at me, then I am certainly not offended. But if the member gets it wrong, those who will be offended are those who are involved in New Zealand agriculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand farmers are not arguing in the main that they should be exempt. What they are asking for is an emissions trading scheme that is in synchrony with other overseas producers, particularly Australia. They are asking for a scheme that does not simply move production from New Zealand to somewhere else in the world that does not impose the same sorts of impediments and costs. If we get it wrong, then what will happen is that we will simply move production from New Zealand to other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESome tremendously good work has been done by Professor Caroline Saunders, amongst others, at Lincoln University, who categorically proves to me that the systems of production in New Zealand are actually more carbon efficient that most of those in other parts of the world. So if David Parker, as the Minister, and other members of the Labour Government get this wrong, we will simply have moved production out of New Zealand to a country like Uruguay. We will actually do nothing positive for global warming. In fact, we risk doing exactly the opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Committee today that this is a very serious issue. It is one that should not have been ignored through the select committee process. It is one that should have been answered to the satisfaction of the members of Parliament who sat on that select committee. In many cases the officials, when we questioned them, were unsure of how this particular section would work. There was huge debate in the committee about the point of obligation. Would it be with the individual farmer? Would it be at the processor level? No one was able to accurately tell me as a member of the select committee what the ultimate financial implications for the farmers of New Zealand would be. We got a range of figures, but suffice it to say that, for the debate at this stage, those figures were scary to the financial viability of particularly our sheep and beef sector. I think the Minister should rise and tell us how much this will cost the New Zealand farmer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa726238e7a5419aa5bcedb90997e8ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa726238e7a5419aa5bcedb90997e8ef\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to deal with some of the issues raised so far that are general rather than matters particular to any clause. The National Party members Nick Smith and Bill English made reference to the length of the Supplementary Order Papers. The bill as reported back, including the commentary, is 258 pages long. The officials have had a couple of months to polish the bill during the period when negotiations have been afoot with other parties. A track-changes version of the bill is available to members. This goes through the technical amendments made to the bill in Supplementary Order Papers 232 and 238, which comprise 29 and 35 pages respectively. All of those changes are technical. It is not intended that there be any significant policy changes in these Supplementary Order Papers. The changes proposed attempt to clarify and give effect to the changes adopted by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. As I said, for the assistance of members, those are set out in a track-changes version of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETo give an example of the sorts of amendments we are talking about, I refer to Supplementary Order Paper 232. Members will see under the amendments to clause 4, for example, that subsection (4) is amended to omit the word \u201CParts\u201D\u2014plural\u2014and substitute the word \u201CPart\u201D. A lot of the changes are purely grammatical. In terms of the other Supplementary Order Papers, there is a short two-page one that relates to the GST treatment of emission units. The most significant of the Supplementary Order Papers records the changes to the policies agreed to as a consequence of our agreements with the Greens and New Zealand First. Those have been traversed in terms of principle in the announcements made last week, and they are set out in that Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe objections of Mr Hide and Mr Copeland are not to do with the emissions trading scheme so much as they are to do with the Kyoto Protocol. They do not accept that climate change is happening. Therefore, they see no need for a response to it. The Government disagrees with that position, as does the National Party, the Greens, and New Zealand First. Every party apart from ACT and Gordon Copeland agrees that climate change is real and requires a response. The purpose of the emissions trading scheme is to create the appropriate economic incentive to reduce emissions rather than increase them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI refer to the point made by David Carter relating to agriculture. He said that the agriculture sector says that it should not be exempt but that it wants more exemption than is at present provided for in the bill. The agriculture sector is given free allocation for 90 percent of its 2005 agricultural emissions from the time it comes into the scheme, which is not until 1 January 2013. There is no credible evidence that farming will become unprofitable. As a consequence, there is no credible evidence that farm output will reduce. Indeed, I think New Zealand farmers will once again be ahead of the field when it comes to emissions-reducing technologies, and these technologies will improve the competitive efficiency of their industry as against that of their competitors overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002249f7ad2457d741cbbe7502672d265e85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249f7ad2457d741cbbe7502672d265e85\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Anybody listening to David Carter would never guess for a moment that the agricultural sector, which produces 50 percent of New Zealand\u2019s emissions, was being 100 percent protected for a whole 5 years, with its emissions being paid for entirely by the New Zealand taxpayer. The second thing that anyone listening to David Carter would never guess is that when the agricultural sector comes into the scheme in 2013, it is to be awarded free credits equal to 90 percent of its emissions in 2005. Furthermore, that free allocation does not even begin to reduce until 2019. That shows extremely generous treatment towards the agricultural sector. The only thing the National Party could do in its proposed emissions trading scheme to treat the agricultural sector more generously would be to take it out of the scheme altogether, and we suspect that that is what it will want to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI will respond to what the Hon Nick Smith said in his speech about the difficulty of figuring out what these huge amendments, given at short notice, actually mean. I am keen to help him with that problem by going through Supplementary Order Paper 239. This Supplementary Order Paper records the effects of the policy agreement that the Greens have reached with the Government, and it enables us to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe first provision on Supplementary Order Paper 239 that I draw members\u2019 attention to is new section 18CB, which responds to submissions by many, many submitters that we should not include Russian hot air in the New Zealand registry\u2014in other words, units issued to Russia under the Kyoto Protocol\u2014because Russia\u2019s economy collapsed after 1990 and therefore this does not represent any real effort to reduce emissions. We were very glad to find out during negotiations that bilaterals are going on with Eastern European countries whereby those countries are agreeing that they will be greened when they put their units on the market. In other words, the money spent on them will be invested in carbon reduction programmes. So new section 18CB says that regulations will be drawn up to the effect that Russian hot air and Eastern European assigned amount units\u2014in fact, assigned amount units generally\u2014will not be accepted into the New Zealand register until they meet those conditions of greening. We are very glad to have achieved that. We think that improves the environmental integrity of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe second provision I draw members\u2019 attention to is new section 69A, \u201CEstablishment of Innovation Fund\u201D. I have been on record about this fund a number of times, and people who were on the Finance and Expenditure Committee with me will have become sick of me harping on about it. As introduced, the bill locked New Zealand into old technologies and made it impossible for the new, exciting, and innovative carbon-reducing technologies to be established in New Zealand. Those technologies would get no credits and they would be competing with companies that were 90 percent grandparented, even though they were much less efficient. So the Government has agreed to my suggestion of establishing a contestable innovation fund equal to 1 percent of the total credits issued for free, within that cap, not on top of it\u2014150,000 credits a year, to be precise. People can bid for those credits if they want to set up a new enterprise in New Zealand or expand an existing enterprise in a way that significantly reduces carbon emissions for a particular industry. I hope that means New Zealand will be able to position itself in the rest of the world as a friendly place for new, innovative technologies, and I hope that will lead us in the direction of an economic transformation towards a low-carbon economy, which is what we need to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI point to new section 74\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb0bc13327d844d2928c8448eb258c7a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What about 69B\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537789a2d03a4da4974317a1d323d388\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Nick Smith that that is all part of the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022382e4ea8cbc143d982906cc311180d5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the fishing section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3421dd96de4da4a7605e4c7aadad12\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the fishing section was the agreement between New Zealand First and the Government. That was not our proposal, so I will leave that to New Zealand First to discuss. New section 74 simply makes the point that an industry is not necessarily either wholly or not at all trade exposed. An industry may be trade exposed for some of the products it sells and not for others. In that situation it is not exactly fair that the industry should get 90 percent of all of its emissions for free. Instead there ought to be a graduated scale, and new section 74 makes it clear that that must be considered at the time of the development of the allocation plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENew section 180, \u201CEstablishment of Household Fund\u201D, is, as the Minister described in the House last week, the largest energy efficiency programme New Zealand has ever seen, and the Greens are very proud of that. We know that the household sector uses about one-third of New Zealand\u2019s electricity, we know that much of it is used very wastefully, and we know that householders do not always have the information as to how they could reduce their bills. Most of all, we know that when new technology is needed, householders do not have the capital to make it possible for them to reduce their bills, so they are trapped in this cycle of low incomes, high energy use, cold and damp houses, and poor health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis fund makes it possible to build on the small programmes that the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority has been running for some time to insulate, retrofit, and upgrade homes, to provide clean heating devices, and to extend those programmes up through middle-income people, with various rates of subsidy. The fund will be overseen by the authority, which will develop the criteria for ministerial approval. My hope is that particular urgency will be given to homes where people have health problems that are exacerbated by cold and by dampness, that there will be a higher level of subsidy for low-income homes than for high-incomes homes, and that there will be something for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENew section 181, \u201CGazetting of targets\u201D, inserts in the legislation a requirement for targets. Another member noted earlier that this is not a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme because there is no cap\u2014unlike in Australia, which plans to have a cap. That is a matter that has concerned the Greens from the beginning. It simply means that we plan to continue growing our emissions indefinitely, but to buy offsets from the rest of the world. Although we were not able to get a cap, we were able to get targets for the reduction of emissions within New Zealand into the bill. The bill requires the Minister to develop targets and to gazette them, and they are reviewed at the 5-yearly reviews under new section 147. Those targets will initially be the ones that have already been announced in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Strategy, and we hope they will be strengthened over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002234e095312ef64c2c85dd080d0697bfe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234e095312ef64c2c85dd080d0697bfe7\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E There is an old phrase in negotiations that says: \u201CIf you can\u2019t do the deal right, don\u2019t do it tonight.\u201D, and there is a lot of wisdom contained in that phrase. But we are being asked to do this deal now, and I think that people have to understand exactly why we are being asked to do the deal now when it is as plain as a pikestaff that this is not the right time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EYou asked, Madam Chair, for people to stick to the purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b9a6bfd2f64ac2811bb9e83a8d65c8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: To the actual clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff0a71ff7657441fbad637312d82d20d\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is very important in this context that people understand what the purpose of this bill\u2014in the current political context\u2014is. The purpose of ramming this bill through during what may prove to be the last remaining days of the Clark-Peters Government is overtly political. It is overtly political because it fits an agenda that became quite clear in the Budget speech made by the Prime Minister about two Budgets ago, when she said, I think, the word \u201Csustainability\u201D 26 times and earned herself the title of \u201CMadam Sustainability\u201D in certain quarters. It is perfectly clear that New Zealanders will be expected to decide this election in part because of a phoney debate about which of the two major political parties is or is not prepared for New Zealand to make a serious contribution to the global process of moving towards a decarbonised world economy\u2014a process that will take decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe reason why this bill is being rammed through has everything to do with this phase in the political process. If we look at this in the context of where we are on international trade, what we have seen is a very, very successful attempt, frankly, by the two major parties to move that section of New Zealand\u2019s external economic interests into a true bipartisan policy position. I believe that that has served New Zealand\u2019s interests extremely well, by taking it out of the realm of partisan debate. That is exactly what should happen with this issue, because, as sure as eggs, this process of the world coming to terms with the need to move towards a decarbonised economy will outlive this next electoral cycle, the cycle after that, and, no doubt, the cycle after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ENobody holds power in a democracy forever, and it is absolutely of central importance that we move towards this in a measured way. But the National Party, having written to the Government in December 2005, proposing exactly that and getting absolutely no response, while still ready to work in a constructive way, has been denied that opportunity at every step along the way. It is important that New Zealanders understand why. This Government had no intention of pursuing this issue on a bipartisan policy position. Quite the contrary; it wanted to make it a point of political separation. If that is not obvious today, it will become stunningly obvious as the election campaign unravels in the next few weeks. There are two separate issues, which have been conflated in this negotiation in a way that, I think, can only be described as grossly dishonest and politically and intellectually polluted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe first issue is the underlying policy problem. Is there a serious issue of anthropogenic greenhouse gases and should responsible Governments like our own develop a policy response to that? That is issue No. 1. Actually, this debate obscures the underlying reality\u2014that both the major political parties answer that question in the same way. My own favourite way of answering that is to plagiarise Arnold Schwarzenegger\u0027s response. He said: \u201CIf my son is sick and I have nine doctors saying: \u2018Take your son to the hospital and get something done.\u2019, and one doctor saying: \u2018No, there\u2019s no problem. This will fix itself; this is a natural phenomenon.\u2019, what do I do? I take my son to the hospital.\u201D On this central issue there is actually a consensus between the two major parties. The second, quite separate, question is this. What, in that event, is the right policy response? The policy response that is required is not this one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa6fdd5000764dc7b491eb0797948d93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa6fdd5000764dc7b491eb0797948d93\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak to the purpose of the bill, but before I get on to that I want to say, following on from Mr Groser\u2019s speech, that there is a large proportion of consensus on this bill. In fact, Mr Peter Brown has asked me to mention that he was slow in reaching a decision on this bill because he had huge concerns, but the honourable Minister was good enough to give him time, and he has asked me to say that he appreciates that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EMr Brown has asked me to say to this Chamber that it is a fact that the National Party has said publicly that it will institute an emissions trading scheme within the first 9 months if it comes to power. It has stated, quite clearly, that that scheme would contain 80 percent of what is in this emissions trading scheme, and Mr Brown believes\u2014and we agree\u2014that if that is the case, then he might as well engage in this one and support this bill, and that is what he is doing. He has not done that lightly, because he has concerns, and some of those concerns are outstanding. However, New Zealand First is supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI have to say that, in spite of the protestations to the contrary, National has continually obstructed the progress of this bill at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and that is well known to anybody who was on the committee. Indeed, I am sure that the chairman, who ably chaired the committee, will endorse that comment. The National Party took its time, to say the least. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis bill is to enable New Zealand to meet its obligations, but those obligations are not of the future, not something to be entered into at some stage in the future\u2014and it concerns me that that thought is being put out there by the National Opposition. The bill gives effect to New Zealand paying its way in a scheme that we have already signed up to\u2014and both the big political parties have done that, so both of them have a consensus on that issue. This bill enables us to go through that payment process in a market-driven way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAs my colleagues in the Green Party would rightly say\u2014and I am sure the Minister would agree with me\u2014the ultimate conclusion for this bill is not to have to buy offsets and not to have to pay for increased emissions; it is to reduce emissions and to change behaviour in this country so that we can meet those obligations worldwide and, in fact, lead the charge, because there is money to be made here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBut, more important, I urge my colleague David Carter\u2014the chairman of the Primary Production Committee\u2014to encourage farmers to see the efficiencies inherent in this bill. I was a farmer, he is a farmer, and we know what farmers do when it comes to measuring fertiliser and things like that. It is rough and ready at best. Fertiliser is becoming an increasingly expensive commodity, so there will be efficiency in the use of fertiliser on the farms henceforth. We know there is no silver bullet as far as livestock emissions are concerned, but also we know that the scientists are working on this problem, and, believe it or not, some breeds of cow emit less gas than others. So it makes sense to breed from the ones that do not emit as much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbea4acd2cd74c81a9ea05f7ca5074b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbea4acd2cd74c81a9ea05f7ca5074b7\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 1 of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, and specifically to the purpose clause. I will stay pretty close to that part of the bill. The purpose of the legislation, as stated in clause 5(1), is to \u201Cenable New Zealand to meet its international obligations under the Convention and the Protocol,\u201D\u2014being the Kyoto Protocol. The fact that this is the purpose of the bill is interesting, particularly given the context within which the Prime Minister has sold her agenda of sustainability, which she has done with much rhetoric and much hyperbole over recent years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EAs we debate the purpose clause, it is pretty important to highlight this Government\u2019s record on sustainability over the last 9 years it has been in office, as it has come towards delivering this purpose clause. I want to address three particular areas of the sustainability agenda, and the Government\u2019s record on those. Firstly, I will talk about the Government\u2019s record on greenhouse gas emissions; secondly, I will talk about its record on forestry; and, thirdly, I will talk about its record on renewable energy. These are key issues in this debate, and one would have thought that over the last 9 years we would see advances made towards the purpose of implementing this bill. But, quite frankly, we have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will start with greenhouse gas emissions. Labour came into office in 1999 criticising the Kyoto target as being too modest, and saying that a 20 percent reduction in emissions was required by 2005. Helen Clark upped the ante still further last year by saying that New Zealand would be the first country in the world to be carbon neutral. The huge credibility problem she has is Labour\u2019s record over the past 8 years in this regard. Emissions have ballooned like there is no tomorrow, and New Zealand does not now have a hope in hell of reaching its Kyoto obligations within the set time frame. Labour\u2019s record in reaching towards this purpose clause has been simply terrible. Official United Nations figures were published in November of last year, and they showed an increase in emissions in this country from 69 million tonnes in 1999 to 77 million tonnes in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIf this Government, with its rhetoric, were serious about addressing this issue, one would have thought we would see a reduction in emissions through clear policies in this area. But we have not. We have seen significant increases over that 9-year period, and a complete failure by the Labour-led Government in this area. We have seen a 12 percent increase, compared with Labour\u2019s promise of a 20 percent reduction. I will repeat that. Labour set out to have a 20 percent reduction in emissions by 2005, but we have had a 12 percent increase. That is hard to believe, but it is a fact. That compares internationally with an average increase across the OECD over the same years of just 3 percent\u2014an increase of 8 percent in Australia, 5 percent in the US, and 2 percent in Japan. Here we are, consistently criticising the United States of America for being an economic powerhouse, yet its greenhouse gas emissions have gone up by only 5 percent. Clearly, that nation has a much better policy platform and has achieved better emissions reductions over the last 9 years than this Labour-led Government has. Growth rates also compare poorly with the record of the 1990s, when annual growth was half the rate that it is today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe part that will hurt most is the degree to which New Zealand will fail to hit its Kyoto target. In 2002 the Government told New Zealanders that we stood to make half a billion dollars from ratifying the Kyoto Protocol\u2014that we were going to make money out of this exercise. The Labour-led Government rubbished those who dared to question those numbers, and it accused as being irresponsible those who suggested New Zealanders might have to pay. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6b5264e9aad4c63aa1036a18be9663c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6b5264e9aad4c63aa1036a18be9663c\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 1, and I acknowledge the excellent speeches and speakers before me. In a minute I would like to speak on clause 7, which covers the Minister\u2019s discretion as to the various directions he can give the registrar. But before that I think it would be healthy for the Committee to note that I was at an environmental forum the other day where a Labour member and a Green candidate were commenting about this particular bill. I was most interested to hear the Green candidate say that the Greens did not agree with the bill, that they did not think it was very good, and that they did not think it went far enough, but that they would vote for it anyway as they have some further changes up their sleeves. I think it would be interesting to see what other changes are up their sleeves, but perhaps that candidate was not quite as informed as his colleagues in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs my colleagues noted earlier, we had 1,000 amendments at the Finance and Expenditure Committee after the first rewrite of the bill, and we have 780-odd in front of us today. I sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee during its consideration of some of the submissions and during some of the discussion, though not all. As can be seen in the commentary on the bill, I was replaced on the committee by David Carter for a lot of the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOne of the things I am really interested in, and have talked about, is fungibility. National has released a plan, and it is all about not moving faster than the rest of the world, particularly our trading partners. Clause 7 and the following clauses talk about the Minister\u2019s discretion in and around various units, the transfer of units, the setting up of the registry, etc. As I have often said, New Zealand could create the most gold-plated, best thing in the world around emissions trading, but unless the rest of the world recognises the items, the units, the structure, the measurement, and the fungibility of what we are creating here, and unless the rest of the world thinks that the registry we have set up is acceptable, then what is created here in New Zealand is almost redundant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs previous speakers have said, this is based on the Kyoto Protocol and the need to measure\u2014which is open to question, as well\u2014our emissions. But when we are going in front of the rest of the world, unless the rest of the world has a system that is almost identical to ours, and at least recognises our system, then what we are talking about here is redundant. The Minister can say whatever he likes about how wonderful his system is, but unless it can be banked against internationally, unless it can be borrowed against internationally, and unless it can be securitised internationally from offshore players, then what we are arguing about here is redundant\u2014unless it is recognised from outside of New Zealand. And how will outside players recognise this in New Zealand? It will be by the measurement of the units, what the units are, and what is on the registry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will give an example. Let us say that this scheme goes in place as is, and a few years down the track a farmer wants to hedge himself. He could be a farmer in Europe or a farmer in New Zealand, and he wants to hedge himself. A bank in Australia has given him a loan for a dairy farm in New Zealand, and he is trying to hedge himself against some units somewhere in Europe. Well, unless that registry deals with the proper units that are recognised and are trading overseas, regardless of what New Zealand thinks of the integrity of its own units and measurements, it will not happen. He will have an asset and a liability, regardless of how much is written off over what year. Unless they can be recognised internationally by those three players I mentioned in that example, then it is redundant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWe are about to spend time on this bill under urgency, and we are talking about a 250-odd page bill, as the Minister said earlier. I cannot for the life of me understand why it is not being considered longer, further, deeper, and wider. It is the most lateral, far-reaching, horizontal bill that we have seen in this House for a long time. It is the bill with the most vertical impact across our economy that this House has seen for an awfully long time. I do not knock that fact, but what is missing is the consideration and the buy-in from at least three-quarters of this Parliament. By most accounts, I think, the bill is sneaking in with two or three votes. That is not good. It is not constitutional, and it does not make economic sense. If I were sitting somewhere else in the world, looking at what is being rushed through the New Zealand Parliament right here, and wondering how it is going to work, I would think: \u201CNew Zealand, you\u2019ve gone nuts.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae8a4b2bd0ab45a69dace65aadf416d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae8a4b2bd0ab45a69dace65aadf416d8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the member, I apologise to the member, Craig Foss\u2014I had to look up in the dictionary to find out what \u201Cfungibility\u201D was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00225f29bdd172b3462d8ed59fe94dcc6720\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f29bdd172b3462d8ed59fe94dcc6720\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. Just as a warning, I say that I am looking to try to spin out two calls to talk to our Supplementary Order Paper 240, which has been put in my name, in respect of inserting a new clause 2A after clause 2. It says that the Act is to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi. As the explanatory note says, \u201CAn explicit reference to the Treaty of Waitangi is added to the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill to ensure that the Emissions Trading Scheme will be implemented and operated in accordance with the rights guaranteed to Maori under the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D That is a relatively short statement, but in fact its effects are far-reaching. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENearly 30 M\u0101ori entities apparently made submissions on this bill, including r\u016Bnanga, trusts, corporations, and representative bodies including the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities. Many of these submitters raised concerns at their hearing before the Finance and Expenditure Committee that this bill, as introduced, conflicts with the principles and provisions of Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 and breaches Te Tiriti o Waitangi. In particular, it breaches article 2 of the Treaty by posing an encumbrance over M\u0101ori land that fails to uphold the Crown\u2019s guarantee to protect rangatiratanga. For this reason, M\u0101ori submitters have argued that the bill is in effect an alienation of M\u0101ori land and M\u0101ori rights and authority over their land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESubmitters have also argued that under this bill the Crown has assumed to itself the ownership, allocation, and management of the carbon allocation resource. They have argued that, instead of wholesale ownership and control, the Crown is meant to consult with its Treaty partner to protect the rangatiratanga of M\u0101ori, and compensate if it cannot do that. As a remedy, submitters asked the committee to add a Treaty clause to the bill to ensure that the implementation and operation of the emissions trading scheme shall not be inconsistent with the Treaty of Waitangi. This request was obviously ignored, similar to many other requests to honour and uphold the Treaty. But the M\u0101ori Party will not ignore the rights of our people to have the guarantee of rangatiratanga upheld, and we submit this amendment to have a Treaty clause added to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe seek to include the words: \u201CThis Act shall be so interpreted and administered as to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D To give effect to the Treaty \u201Ccreates more positive and substantive obligations on all bodies covered by the Act \u2026 to give effect to the Treaty principles, and so carries a higher likelihood that the Courts will be called on to interpret its application in the sector;\u201D. \u201CIf identifiable Maori rights and interests protected by the Treaty would be affected by proposed legislation,\u201D\u2014and here is the catch\u2014\u201C the question may arise whether there should, as a matter of policy, be some specific recognition or protection of those rights and interests by the inclusion of an appropriate provision in the legislation.\u201D In any event, there will be a question of the effect of the proposed legislation on these rights and interests, whether or not such a provision is included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFor examples of the identifiable M\u0101ori rights and interests protected by the Treaty that stand to be threatened by this bill, we need only turn to Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2014I broached some of these issues today in question time. The first day of spring, as we know, was fairly significant for one reason. It was on this day\u2014or at least last night\u2014that a late Waitangi Tribunal claim was filed in response to a large iwi concerned about what they called a significant threat to their 1998 Treaty settlement. According to the Kaiwhakahaere of Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu, Mark Solomon, this emissions trading scheme will undermine their settlement and unwind the very purpose of the settlement that they set out to achieve over the lives of many generations of Ng\u0101i Tahu. This condemnation of the Government\u2019s flagship policy came from none other than Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu, as I said, who boldly stood up and told the nation that the legislation before the House right now would \u201Cliterally wipe tens of millions of dollars off the value of the forestry assets we received as part of our settlement\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis was an urgent call from Ng\u0101i Tahu because they were concerned that every effort must be made to safeguard the interests of Ng\u0101i Tahu wh\u0101nui. In effect, their view is that the Crown continues to threaten the integrity of the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement. So it is an affront on this iwi that the Minister today might provide\u2014from the Government perspective at least\u2014some rebuttal to some of the questions I put to him. Nevertheless, Ng\u0101i Tahu believe that some serious concerns need to be placed in front of the country and obviously followed through by way of submitting a Treaty claim to the Waitangi Tribunal before the closing-off date yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat would not have been an easy decision for Ng\u0101i Tahu to take. Mark Solomon has put the case that this emissions trading scheme, as I have said, represents a threat to both the integrity and the finality of their settlement, and the very least that the Government should have done would be to listen to their concerns and at least ask why. This is not the first time this sort of concern has come before the Government. Indeed, as I indicated today, one of its own departments alerted it to the threat that this scheme could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars in payments to iwi. I talked about a Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry report obtained by media last month, which suggested that the scheme could leave the Crown open to substantial claims because the value of land handed to iwi under Treaty of Waitangi settlements could substantially decrease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo it is appropriate that Ng\u0101i Tahu have some concerns, because the emissions trading scheme basically jeopardises their settlement, and in their view this amounts to another confiscation. Iwi that have already signed up to agreements many years ago will have to carry the burden of the emissions trading scheme into the future. The problem is that when the door is closed on settlements, we are leaving it for that iwi to carry the burden of the fact that with the passing of this bill, they will have no opportunity to revisit the ramifications of such a bill on earlier settlements. That is what we have seen in the settlement process, time and time again: it creates a new grievance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Crown mistakenly believes that one issue has been settled and that it can turn its back on iwi. Well, that is not how it works. For us, the concept of settlement is about bringing iwi together with the Crown to work constructively. Ng\u0101i Tahu want to do that with the Crown, and that is absolutely appropriate. But we do understand their concern that with the passing of this bill we are creating another grievance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is a view that others hold also. Tangata whenua have continually maintained that the provisions of the bill relating to pre-1990 forested M\u0101ori land are contrary to the provisions of the Treaty, and we say that the emissions trading scheme undermines the principles of both Te Tiriti and Te Ture Whenua Maori Act. The preamble\u2014if members did not know\u2014to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act clearly states, in alliance to other principles of the Treaty, provision for, among other things, the \u201Cdevelopment, and utilisation of that land for the benefit of its owners, their whanau, and their hapu:\u201D. This right is clearly extinguished when a significant cost is imposed on M\u0101ori owners to change their land use from forestry, when benefit to owners would be achieved by making such a change. We have also received advice just this morning from M\u0101ori who have let us know that when the first cases go to the M\u0101ori Land Court, which they will inevitably do when the Ministry for the Environment chief executive tries to have memorials registered on pre-1990 forested M\u0101ori land titles, then they will turn to Labour, the Greens, and New Zealand First to say that this is what happens when important legislation is dealt with in such a shonky, backroom way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENg\u0101i Tahu\u2019s concerns for the land and forestry assets are not the only reason the M\u0101ori Party opposes this bill\u2014there are others, of course. We accept that any emissions reduction programme will result in changes to land values and will enable the Government, business, and the public to account for environmental costs on business, including forestry. So that is not the reason why we oppose the bill. The primary reasons are that it is not effective in reducing emissions, it is not transparent, and the polluters do not pay\u2014they receive massive subsidies in the form of corporate welfare. The whole point of economic incentives to cut emissions is defeated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOur Supplementary Order Paper is the best shot at pulling on to the agenda all of the concerns that M\u0101ori hold. It is a short statement but, as I said right from the very start, we hope the ramifications of such a Supplementary Order Paper will be far-reaching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd76d3c9c01844ea98eb4ff4cbe18705\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd76d3c9c01844ea98eb4ff4cbe18705\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E When the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill was introduced to the House last December, United Future gave it conditional support because we recognised that it was important for New Zealand to start to develop a comprehensive approach in its response to the problems caused by global climate change issues. But I recall making the point to the House on that day last December that it was important that this bill attain not only political acceptability but public acceptability\u2014it had to be environmentally sustainable, but it also had to be publicly sustainable\u2014and that the measure of that sustainability in the public mind would come with the question of how the impact on households was going to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAt the time, there was a lot of to-do from the Government about how an adequate system of compensation would be put in place. Originally, it was going to be for everybody, then it seemed to be softened to \u201Cvulnerable households\u201D, that awful phrase, then it came down to the elderly, and then to various other groups. Now we know that $112.50 is a one-off payment in 2010\u2014about $2.15 a week\u2014to cover the cost of perceived electricity increases. That is not enough. It will not get the support of the New Zealand public that this measure deserves. All that means is that we are going to be back here next year, and the year after, amending these provisions to try to make what is now looking like a very hotchpotch emissions trading regime work effectively. That is not good enough, and that is why we have decided not to support the passage of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere is no need to pass this bill in the dying days of this Parliament simply to satisfy the Government\u2019s political agenda. This is actually an agenda that is bigger than any party in this Parliament. This is an agenda that addresses the future of this country. I cannot, for the life of me, see what huge environmental and economic damage we would do to our country, let alone to the world, if we were to defer the passage of this bill for 6 months to ensure that these issues of compensation, the issues my colleague from the M\u0101ori Party referred to a moment or two ago, and some of the other issues that have come up in this debate already, could be addressed in a way that was not just a quick fix for today but a sustainable position for the future. [Interruption].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42858929cda485881b5f5ffdce2f0d9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: It is all right. The member should keep going. Some people are just getting enthusiastic and leaping to their feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022216137fcd0714f9a972573e23715f747\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am obviously generating a measure of excitement from those who agree with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022384bc562704c4853959486b83c156584\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee08f9ea4257491ba6860e69269f27b7\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: And agreement, yes, and I appreciate that. Members are welcome to agree with me all the time. But I come back to what I was saying\u2014that this is a measure that has been described as one of the most important to come before Parliament in years. Indeed it is, and that is why it deserves far greater attention than it has received to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe large number of submitters to the bill, who all made constructive suggestions, and the many groups that are out there lobbying on various aspects of this bill, deserve better than to see it rushed through at this stage simply because an election is looming. The funny thing is that there is broad agreement amongst everybody here, with the possible exception of ACT, that there is an issue that needs to be resolved. Yet we are determined to polarise this Parliament, because, in trying to come to an agreement, it is a case of \u201Cmy agreement has to be bigger than your agreement.\u201D Frankly, that is silly. It is no way to make sustainable policy in terms of an issue that we all acknowledge goes beyond us and our generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI implore the House to consider this measure in a more calm and rational manner. We have the prospect of our major trading partner, Australia, implementing an emissions trading regime in a slightly slower time frame, but one that is not inconsistent with the time frame of this bill, and would not be inconsistent with where we want to go. We talk about a single economic market, and we talk about our trans-Tasman relationship\u2014I cannot, for the life of me, see why we need to be first out of the blocks in terms of getting an emissions trading regime in place, when we are going to have to work with whatever it is the Australians subsequently put in place. Surely, given the close contacts between our Governments and the frequent visits between Ministers, it is possible to work out a scheme that is consistent, to the largest possible extent, and that we can proceed to implement at a similar time. Our economies and our nations are becoming more intertwined; it makes no sense to have this puerile competition maintained simply because we want to score some political advantage. The New Zealand households that are going to benefit by $2.15 a week will simply laugh. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83d251dbb344edc8362aa5be6caabb8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Colin King I again remind members that we are debating Part 1\u2014this is not a general debate\u2014new clause 2A, and the amendments set out on the Supplementary Order Papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00224f04d9e1492d4671ae5b4eb505300824\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f04d9e1492d4671ae5b4eb505300824\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Can you just confirm for me, because this Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill is in quite an unusual form, in that a whole series of parts are slipped into it, that as I interpret this debate on Part 1, we are in fact arguing over all of the provisions that are in Part 1: Subpart 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3c65b9f8e94fb8aa5c8327c541696f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: And Subpart 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189bd652ca584a07ba2aef02103b12a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Subpart 3, and Subpart 2, which take us through all of the provisions dealing with the emissions trading scheme? We are also dealing with all of the 785 amendments that have been tabled by the Minister, such that this part is dealing with all of the features of introducing an emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002227872b3f5b3840f5bd4fcbd99f86ac25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227872b3f5b3840f5bd4fcbd99f86ac25\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Dr Smith; that is exactly my point. When there are general debates, therefore, about whether climate change exists, that really is not dealing with the detail listed in this very large part, with the amendments that are included. So I am not asking for general speeches; I am very careful about that. Some very good speeches have been made, and I can detail them through, where members have made references to different provisions\u2014to clause 7, to agriculture provisions, and to the different Supplementary Order Papers. But when members tend to go on to a general debate as to why this bill is actually being put before the Committee at this time, I tell them that that really is a debate for the second and third readings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022413b4f67f34a40f1a089cf25a5983d0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022413b4f67f34a40f1a089cf25a5983d0d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E In the time that I have allotted to me I would like to consider developing, in a more specific sense, issues around the comments made by Te Ururoa Flavell of the M\u0101ori Party. In doing so, I will consider the purpose clause and the interpretation clause. When we stop and think about it, we can see that that early part of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill talks a lot about forestry. The interpretation clause, clause 6, concerns the definition of \u201Cclear\u201D and what that means\u2014it is related to trees, of course\u2014and goes through the definitions to include clear-felling, harvesting, burning, removing mechanically, spraying with herbicides, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe point I want to make here is that the problem with this bill is its design. There is a massive design fault with this bill. It denies people the ability to use common sense when making decisions. In regard to the comments made by Te Ururoa Flavell, the member from the M\u0101ori Party, we can talk about the Balmoral Forest in a very regional sense. It is part of the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement. If members travel on the highway to the Lewis Pass, they will go through that forest. It is part of the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement, and Ng\u0101i Tahu are very keen that what their neighbours are doing is also developed there. Just next door is the amazing \u0100muri Basin, which has been turned from a dustbowl, as a result of the use and management of water from the Hurunui and Waiau rivers, into one of the engine rooms of the region\u2019s economy with its dairying. Right next door to the Balmoral Forest there is dairy country that is highly productive when water is put on it. However, as I understand it, the problem with the design of this climate change bill is that the owners will be prohibited from doing that because of the punitive charge of $13,000 per hectare that would be placed upon them if they were to clear-fell that land and set it up for dairying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to explain to me the common sense behind that logic\u2014that design of this bill\u2014whereby those trees could be planted anywhere else by Ng\u0101i Tahu and meet the needs and scope of this bill\u2019s intention. It does not make sense that there should be such an opportunity as this one, yet as a nation we are walking away from it and saying: \u201CNo, if you clear-fell that area, we want $13,000 a hectare.\u201D\u2014if that is what the price is; it could be $20,000. I do not know, so the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, might want to explain how this figure is arrived at, when Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2019s neighbours just over the fence are currently conducting agriculture that is highly productive. When we stop and think about it, we know that this could be pivotal to having a major stakeholder in an irrigation programme emanating within the region that could also irrigate another 30,000 hectares. So just because there is a rule in place, which I see as a design fault of this bill under the interpretation of forestry and how it is meant to be managed, we are limiting ourselves by something potentially in the region of $400 million a year. So I put it to members that I would like to see the Minister on his feet and explaining the common-sense, global logic of denying Ng\u0101i Tahu the right to do that, because that is the very same point that Mark Solomon was making in the question raised by Te Ururoa Flavell in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI believe that when we go through this bill, with its complexities around forestry and many, many other things, we are not entirely addressing things in the best-practice manner. In actual fact, in many ways New Zealand is conducting itself by means that are far in excess of best practice compared with other nations. Unfortunately, though, we have locked ourselves into a bill that has a dramatic and clear design fault. Now, 780-odd amendments have been thrown at us, and there will be a 2-year delay before the bill is introduced when, clearly, we are looking at a dynamic economy. To illustrate this further, I tell members that locally in the top of the South Island a wine industry in 1999 was using 2 megawatts of power; today it is using 14 megawatts. This bill has a design fault. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e06a9baa4e12430ba1209b9a07822108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e06a9baa4e12430ba1209b9a07822108\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I would just contrast the position taken by Mr Flavell, who criticised the emissions trading scheme as not requiring polluters to pay enough, and the position taken by Mr King, who said people should have more flexibility to increase their emissions without paying. The reality is that there is a difficult balance to be struck. We think we have got it right. Polluters from all sectors of the economy, once they come in, pay for increases in their emissions and are rewarded for decreases in their emissions. That is the basic effect of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the issue of whether one should allow offset planting, the bill allows offset planting under the rules of this scheme if and when it is allowed under the international agreement. Until such time as it is allowed under the international agreement, the effect of what the National Party proposes would be that the landowner would go forward by, say, $3,000 or $4,000 a hectare, and the taxpayer would be the poorer by about $13,000 per hectare. As a country, we would be the poorer to the tune of $10,000 per hectare overall, and that would be a cost that taxpayers pay through their taxes\u2014and that would not be wise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will also deal with Peter Dunne\u2019s interventions. He said that not enough was being done to provide compensation for households, and therefore he would not support the bill. He, of course, made that decision before he knew how much compensation for households there would be. I find it somewhat ironic that he should say we should have some great love-in here, where we all get together and reach agreement, when he would not participate in the negotiation of that compensation package. He did make reference to the $180 million part of the compensation package that relates to adjustments to benefits, superannuation, and Working for Families, and also a universal rebate on everyone\u2019s electricity account\u2014$180 million. He did not make as much reference to the $1 billion energy efficiency fund, which is important to all of the parties that are supporting this legislation\u2014the Greens, New Zealand First, the Progressives, and Labour. That $1 billion energy efficiency fund will help people to moderate their energy use, which will decrease greenhouse gas emissions. People will burn less coal and gas in their own homes, and they will also use less electricity, which would have had to be generated from thermal energy sources. That energy efficiency fund is very important, and it will help people meet their energy needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAnother point that I would make is that a couple of people have said that this legislation has somehow been through a shonky process. It has been through a very thorough process. The Finance and Expenditure Committee has heard 56 hours of submissions. There have been hundreds of meetings with stakeholders up and down the country. There have been meetings with M\u0101ori through hui throughout the country. There have been meetings with the climate change M\u0101ori leadership group, and the M\u0101ori reference group. There have been meetings with the leadership forum composed of business and non-governmental organisation leaders. There have been technical advisory groups. This scheme has been worked through in great detail, and I am confident that the process has been robust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00226225f471546a45a495b164dfc55452c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226225f471546a45a495b164dfc55452c2\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E In following on from a Minister who I know has a legal background, and who was also involved in one of the biggest corporate farms in New Zealand, I say that he does himself and this Parliament no good whatsoever by making comments like that. This has been a shonky process and there is no doubt about it. How the Minister can say that 785 amendments by way of Supplementary Order Paper do not constitute a mess I do not know, given the number of submissions he talked about and the fact that the legislation was the subject of a select committee process. The Minister cannot stand in this House and say that they are only minor amendments, changing a word from plural to singular. Some of them may be, but one cannot have 785 amendments fitting into that category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI will speak about the forestry sector, because the forestry sector holds the key to New Zealand\u2019s Kyoto Protocol commitments. The forestry sector is the one that has been the most affected. Before Madam Chair tells me that I should speak to Part 1, I refer members to clause 6 in Part 1, which talks about forestry land and about how we define \u201Cforest land\u201D. I put this notion to the House tonight. When I stand in the middle of my dairy farm, where I have personally spent thousands of dollars planting riparian margins, which are the trees described in Part 1, I am asked to believe that they are not carbon sinks, but the trees I planted in one-hectare blocks on the same dairy farm are. The Green Party particularly asks me to believe this. I would just ask a simple scientific question: why? Maybe the Minister can answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI challenge the Greens further on this. When I am standing in the middle of that dairy farm, where I have beautiful green dairy pasture as far as I can see, streams with nitrate levels that are the world\u2019s best in developed dairy areas, and soil conditions that are improving, based on science, and where I have no scientific evidence to demonstrate that the methane emissions from the animals represent 50 percent of the country\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions, I am expected to believe that I am standing at the site of a bigger environmental devastation than I am when I am standing on Queen Street. And I do not buy it. I just simply do not buy it. The science does not back it up; it is not a fact. I would like the Greens to explain why that has become such a major polarising debating point in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also say to the Minister that when I go back to the forestry sector and look at the biggest opportunity we have to address this issue, I see that it is one of land change. It is one whereby one area where trees are currently planted is more suitable for one type of land activity than another\u2014for example, dairy farming or any other type of agricultural activity, or viticulture for that matter. Why is it more devastating to the environment to cut down those trees and plant trees somewhere else? In this bill that activity is penalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI will also talk about some of the disincentives to the forestry sector in this legislation. For example, there is the inconsistency of treatment between forests planted after 1990 and those planted before then. I am sure that those who planted forests before 1990 had never heard of the Kyoto Protocol\u2014I accept that\u2014and that those who planted forests afterwards probably had some idea that something would happen. I ask the Minister to explain to me, then, the inconsistency of treatment for those who sell or purchase forests post-2002 that are pre-1990 forests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask why Parliament cannot see the amount of uncertainty and disincentive to investment in the forestry sector that this legislation, and all the work that has gone on before it, has brought about. What has it led to? It has led to deforestation in this country on a scale that we have not seen since the 1950s. Instead of planting more trees, instead of having a growing forest sector, we have a declining forest sector, and we have declining carbon sequestration because of that. It is all a result of the mess that this Government has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a820a4a9a4a94d3c8deee75469a5a15c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a820a4a9a4a94d3c8deee75469a5a15c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a01281bd098d4c429b850bb4bf894d5e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: It works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad06310457ad4bf58aa872f15b8e18f1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It works. I will remember that. You are so lovely to me. [Interruption] Doug Woolerton over there knows the Vela cheques went missing; some of them went missing. I say to Doug Woolerton that they did not get all of them. I want to address clause 5\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9dd82aaf26641e3b978eee5af33c1b8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350499199c82497d8d0ea20daf7728f2\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which covers the purpose of the Act. It sets out the purpose, and it is missing a couple of purposes, in my humble view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOne purpose that is missing is Helen Clark\u2019s purpose. She knows that she is not going to be Prime Minister after this election, and she is wondering where one goes after being the Prime Minister of New Zealand. We know where Winston Peters is going after having been the Minister of Foreign Affairs. But Helen Clark does not want to be wearing a pinstriped suit with wide stripes and a number on it; she wants to be a big wheel on the world stage. So the purpose of this bill\u2014clause 5\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a53ba67f24443369a9ae7d63488a427\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the member should not trifle. The debate is on the real purpose of the bill. The member should not imagine a purpose. I could have a debate and make up a whole lot of purposes that are missing from the bill. We are talking about the purpose that is here in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f18a7bd86b24c5093d61b09cff8856e\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: This is the real purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fefa736c2a94e24942edcbca8bf0878\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I think you are trifling, but you may continue. I am listening very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b51b64c50644ccabfe70e42f86431b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have always listened to you, because you are so good to me. Is it working? Clause 5(1) needs to have inserted in it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb43c0d3ec14d92a0d9cd3e16d2f46d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: The biggest bludger in the place! A complete bludger!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd938cb89c042d0a4d8e1e2a17066ac\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He could take a few happy pills with you, Madam Chair\u2014\u201Cnice\u201D pills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be607050d08c415b98fe606dba3f6822\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: You should have come to work and read the bill, instead of bludging out there for 2 years off the taxpayer, doing nothing! Wasn\u2019t this member on the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e234b656b994e54973bb9730618bd1a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I have the feeling that Mark Gosche is not happy. I think he must be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221457b4b6cc694cb6a13e089d34c7cb4a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. Both of you sit down. Well, one of you is up, but I ask Mark Gosche to sit down. Can I have some order from both of you, on both sides, and can I have some concentration on the bill. We have had some excellent debates on this bill. Please do not make up imaginary clauses to this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261cfe13d41834668a19a4330befd893f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to add to clause 5(1) a supplementary subclause (c), and I will speak to that. Clause 5(1)(c) would explain that the purpose of this bill is to allow Helen Clark to look good on the world stage and say that she can become a big wheel in the UN because, when she was the Prime Minister, she led the world in producing the most comprehensive, economically destructive emissions trading scheme ever. That is what my amendment would say in clause 5(1)(c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHelen Clark now does not care about New Zealand; she cares about what is going to happen to her after the election. She certainly does not care about the economic damage this legislation will do to New Zealand; I covered that in my earlier speech. She does not care about the damage that is done to her Government and to this country\u2019s reputation by clutching Winston Peters, and his Tiberius corporation and the money from the Spencer Trust, to her bosom. Clause 5(1)(c) in my amendment would explain that. Helen Clark is kissing goodbye to New Zealand and saying: \u201CLook at me.\u201D Helen Clark knows that she is toast at the election, and I think it is appalling that we are rushing through this legislation, with 785 amendments, in the dying days of a teetering Labour-led Government, with a Minister of Foreign Affairs with no portfolios\u2014all baubles and no work. The real purpose that we are putting through this bill is for Helen Clark to say to the rest of the world and to her lefty mates: \u201CLook what I did. To hell with New Zealand!\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI think this is a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002263019fa45eae406ca7989ecc7e518785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263019fa45eae406ca7989ecc7e518785\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The arrogance of the Government in the way in which it is dealing with this legislation speaks volumes about why New Zealand desperately needs a change of Government. To have a bill that will have such profound effects on every nook and cranny of New Zealand and to expect this Parliament, in a few hours, to do it justice really makes today a disgraceful day for this New Zealand Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet me go through just a few of the significant issues. Everybody in this Parliament should understand that agriculture is at the core, and is the powerhouse, of the New Zealand economy. To include agriculture in an emissions trading system is a very, very major reform. The most basic question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964bef5a5cf74726a58c75cc5fd39d0c\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: I think you\u2019d take it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd50941aea8a41468d1db416ec09cf1a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I say to Doug and to New Zealand First, is to ask whether the point of obligation is going to be the farmer or the processor. I say to Mr Parker that if he wants to get the international accolades for having the first emissions trading system in the world to include agriculture, he needs to answer that most basic question. But the Minister and this Government are passing a hospital pass to the next Government. They are saying they do not know the answer to that question and they are just going to kick it into the future. The aim here is for Helen Clark to get herself some job in the United Nations, while selling the people of New Zealand down the tube by not working out the most basic mechanics of an emissions trading system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we come to the forest sector. If people want to look at any area where this Government has made a complete hash of New Zealand climate change policy, it is forestry. I have an amendment that does the most basic thing. You see, flexible land use has been at the core of New Zealand\u2019s wealth creation for 160 years. We do not know what the economics and the future will be for dairying, cropping, or forestry\u2014all those different land uses. What National wants in this bill is something very simple. If people want to deforest an area of land, should they not be able to plant some other area\u2014perhaps some of that million hectares of highly eroding hill country\u2014to absorb the carbon? There is absolutely no loss for the environment. Whether the tree is growing on this acre or that acre makes absolutely no difference to the climate, yet this bill will lock New Zealand in some sort of a time warp around land use. Members on the Opposition side of the Chamber say: \u201CNot good enough, Labour. Not good enough, Mr Parker.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we take another area, like fishing. Why is it that when it comes to the dairy industry, we say we are going to grandparent 90 percent of it, when it comes to the steel industry, or the aluminium industry, or the cement industry, we are going to grandparent 90 percent of them, but when it comes to fishing\u2014oh no\u2014there are a different set of rules. What logic is there for that? Are we somehow saying that the fishing industry is not an important export industry? Three hundred and twenty jobs in my electorate have just gone down the tube. I was briefed recently by Sealord\u2019s, which told me that the other 900 jobs in the biggest fish processing factory in New Zealand teeter on the balance, yet in this bill we are going to dump another $10 million in costs on that industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI wonder whether Labour members have gone down to talk to the Service and Food Workers Union about the extra costs, and what that might do for their members\u2019 jobs as a consequence of this bill. When will any Labour member get to his or her feet and explain what the consequences will be for the many voters who are not National voters but who will be adversely affected by the complex provisions in this bill? I say to members opposite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228390eeb629a04af5bcfdc7a02fce7832\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, 2 weeks ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e2fd8dc9cd42088c044ceab56c8166\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Maryan Street has said to the fishing industry in Nelson, of the extra $10 million, that she does not give a sod. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00221d244db753a442a2b3ea2c8b970d32d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d244db753a442a2b3ea2c8b970d32d2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk again specifically to clauses 177A onwards of \u201CSubpart 4\u2014Agriculture\u201D of Part 5, inserted by clause 43, and I repeat my call to the Minister in the chair, David Parker, when I took an earlier contribution, asking him to stand and tell this Committee how much this legislation will cost individual farmers. The Minister has taken a couple of calls so far, but he has completely ignored my question, probably because he simply does not know the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI refer the Minister to the New Zealand Farmers Weekly that was published yesterday, 1 September 2008. The headline for this particular article is \u201CETS bill 99% of farm surplus\u201D. A Gisborne farmer by the name of Neil Henderson says he went on to the carbon calculator and put in his current inputs, and it came up as saying that under this emissions trading scheme his farm surplus would be reduced by 99 percent. In other words, that particular farmer would potentially be wiped out by Mr Parker\u2019s legislation. So I ask the Minister to let us try to find out what the cost would be for that farmer. Let us assume that he is an average sheep and beef farmer for that area, and that he runs 5,000 stock units. On the assumption that the carbon cost is $25 a tonne, the farmer has calculated that that will cost him $125,000 per annum. If those are the costs, I tell Mr Parker, that man cannot survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn an earlier contribution Mr Parker argued that farmers should not be exempted from the scheme, and I accept that. He then argued that farmers should pay for their increased emissions, and let us for the moment accept that. But if Neil Henderson has consistently farmed 5,000 stock units for the previous 10 years, and if he expects to farm 5,000 stock units for the next 10 years, I tell Mr Parker that he will not be increasing his emissions. Yet at $30 a tonne the Minister will be landing Neil Henderson with a bill of 150 grand, so I ask Mr Parker to tell me how that man can survive. We can talk a little about fertiliser, and about nitrogen fertiliser particularly, but if that farmer is on the type of hill country I suspect that he is on, he will not be using nitrogen fertilisers, at all. So there are certainly no easy answers for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat Neil Henderson is dealing with is the expectation that he will have to pay for his methane emissions, so I ask Mr Parker, before he presents that man with a bill of $150,000 a year, to tell me today what that farmer can do to mitigate his methane emissions. The answer today is that he can do nothing. If there is nothing he can do, but he gets a bill of 150 grand a year, he will not survive financially. So the production that that farmer used to give to the New Zealand economy\u2014the money he used to make for New Zealand\u2014will simply be shifted offshore. Those are the facts around this emissions trading scheme, I tell the Minister, and it is time that he rose and answered those questions for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMr Neil Henderson raises some real concerns towards the end of the article, because he says he has read that by 2020 the cost of carbon will not be $25 a tonne, and it will not be $30 a tonne; he has read that the cost of carbon in 2020 will be $200 a tonne. On that basis, he will not have to pay a hundred grand a year; Mr Parker will be asking him to pay $1 million a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I tell the Minister that it is time he got out of his seat and answered some simple questions for those of us on this side of the Chamber. If he proposes to bring agriculture into the scheme, as he has so dictated in this legislation, he or any other member who supports this bill should rise in Parliament today and simply tell us what the annual financial cost will be to Mr Neil Henderson, who farms in Gisborne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30d42594340456b988d76a258064770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30d42594340456b988d76a258064770\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address Subpart 1, \u201CForestry sector\u201D and Subpart 4, \u201CAgriculture\u201D, in new Part 5, inserted by clause 43, in the context of land use, land use change, and forestry, but before doing so I will make just a couple of other small points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I note the importance of Peter Dunne\u2019s contribution that sustainability is a word that has many different facets. But anyone who is familiar with the history of climate change policy, not just in this country but in other countries, knows that political sustainability is the most important facet of all. If the public will not support the policy long term, all the environmental policies will collapse and there will be no progress whatsoever on climate change. I think that is a fundamentally important point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI will put the second point in the form of a question to the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, and I hope that the premise of my question is correct. It may not be, because of the complexity of the amendments and the speed with which this process has moved. Am I correct in understanding, at least in general terms, that as a result of the price of getting the Green Party on board on this legislation, the Minister has in some way qualified the Government\u2019s ability to purchase what are called, in popular jargon, Russian hot air units? If that is the correct assumption underlying my question, and given that although I did not participate in the select committee process, my understanding is that Treasury advised the select committee formally that without access to the so-called Russian hot air units the price of emissions would be significantly\u2014that is my understanding of the word used\u2014higher. Does the Minister have the numbers in front of him to advise the Committee, and indeed the New Zealand public and those who will have to pay for the costs of this bill, what the long-term implications of this deal with the Greens will mean? This question could be very significant, so I would like the Minister in his next intervention to address it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe third thing I will point out before getting on to land use, land use change, and forestry, is that I myself listened to the Minister explaining in his rather too calm way that we have got it right, in the face of what my colleague, our spokesperson, said: \u201CHow could anyone argue seriously that they have got it right after they have just tabled 743 amendments?\u201D, or whatever the figure was. I mean, it just beggars any belief or any plausibility. But one of the strange aspects of this that has always confused me, but that maybe the Minister can explain, relates to the ban particularly on gas as the fossil fuel of choice in balancing the baseload. I am totally confused, you see, as to how the Government could put out a statement in, I think, October 2007, that large 106 or 110-page study called New Zealand Energy Strategy to 2050, which spelt out\u2014in a very coherent way, if I may say so; I congratulate the officials who wrote it\u2014the still considerable scope for renewables expansion in New Zealand because of the great gifts we have in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe National Party fully supports that, but even so we would still need some thermal to balance the baseload, and there is a perfectly coherent set of arguments of a conventional nature around that. Then, crucially, it stated explicitly\u2014and I am pretty sure that I have this quote from the report almost exactly word for word\u2014\u201Cand gas, given its lower emissions, will be the fossil fuel of choice\u201D. Well, that seems quite logical, too. But then, only a matter of weeks later, we got this ban. Is it a ban? Well, that is how the public and investors have interpreted it. So I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s explanation for this complete volte-face within weeks of making what I thought was a sensible way through this issue of balancing the baseload. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ENow let me come to the question of \u201CLULUCF\u201D, which, when I first heard it, I thought was the name of some rather discredited pop singer from the 1960s, but I later found out that it was the acronym for land use, land use change, and forestry. This is the heart of the problem for New Zealand. I have heard one of the Government\u2019s most rabid supporters on this\u2014given that it was said under Chatham House Rules, I will not name the person\u2014say that the whole process of negotiating for land use, land use change, and forestry was done as an afterthought, in a complete mess, by countries that were really looking at industrial emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022da93a3b6fcb44714b86af137907c28be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da93a3b6fcb44714b86af137907c28be\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I am pretty eager, too, to engage in this whole process of raising some issues around this climate change bill. Firstly I say, as I have said in this Chamber before, that I am not a naysayer. In fact, I have given a number of speeches here in which I have said that I am more than concerned about the issues of climate change. But it is essential that we have something that will be a resolution and not just a placebo. It is also important that we identify the crucial things we have to deal with, so I am drawn firstly to look at the purpose clause, clause 5 in Part 1, and my contribution at this stage will be about that clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe new section 3(1) of the Climate Change Response Act, which is to be substituted in clause 5, states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to\u2014(a) enable New Zealand to meet its international obligations \u2026\u201D. Therein lies a bit of a debate in the first instance as to what our obligations actually are and why we feel more obligated to meet them than many of our trading partners. I have asked various people why it is that I think the Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change is like some international nudist club, with every nation a member, and the only country taking its clothes off is New Zealand. The reason I make that claim\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224660cb04cb346bd803ec3f94f24a77f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Could you please get another analogy or metaphor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c6e348124624b54b2390078fc28a5ec\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are exposed\u2014that is the point. We are seriously exposed, including being exposed through some of the elements in this bill. This is particularly so, as Nick Smith mentioned, with regard to the issues surrounding agriculture; yes, they have been delayed until 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI have also said a number of times in this Chamber that agriculture is important. It is the wealth driver of New Zealand and, yes, it is the industry I have spent most of my time engaged in. The one figure that keeps cropping up in regard to New Zealand\u2019s profile in greenhouse gases is that of 50 percent in relation to agriculture. I have pondered this figure. I ask whether it is because of bad practice or the way we measure it, or because some other factors are involved. I approached an august body, the Parliamentary Library of the New Zealand Parliament, and said I wanted this information. I wanted to know the number of people and the number of livestock in all of the OECD countries. Then I converted all the livestock numbers to cows\u2014I made eight sheep the equivalent of a cow\u2014so that I could divide the number of people by the number of cows in the OECD countries. There are 2.73 cows per person in New Zealand\u20142.73 cows. The next country with such a high proportion of cows to people is Australia, at 1.9 cows. By the time we get to Europe the proportion is about 0.2 cows. So the reason our profile would stand out and be extraordinarily bad is that we do not have enough people to offset the number of cows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EBut we would say that that is one issue, and we would ask whether it is due to bad practice. So the other thing I asked the Parliamentary Library of the New Zealand Parliament was how much nitrogenous fertiliser we used per acre of pastoral land. The library could not give me that information, so I got the overall figure and divided it, tried to work out the profiles of arable versus pastoral use, and found that the ratio is rather similar to that of Europe. But because we have pioneered things like the nitrous ammonis clover fixation of nitrogen, we use a fifth of the nitrogenous fertiliser, so we have not relied on that. I admit that this is only a crude measure, but it gives us an indication that it is not bad practice. If we were seriously concerned about climate change in agriculture, then we would be closing down dairying in Europe and bringing the cows to New Zealand, because our record is not due to bad practice. What we do in New Zealand, by world standards, is good practice, yet under our international obligations\u2014under clause 5, as part of the interpretation of this bill\u2014by 2013 we will have dragged agriculture into some kind of reckoning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EA number of figures have been given here today and I do not know the validity of each of those in question. In reality, if we have a concern about climate change, then I can say that what New Zealand is doing in agriculture is good by world standards. It is not bad; we should not be punished. Yes, we should be conscious about these issues in agriculture and, yes, we should be investing in solutions with regard to nitrogen fixation, the better metabolism of animals, less wastage, and higher energy utilisation into growth\u2014yes, we should be doing all of that\u2014but, in fact, the inclusion by 2013 of that in a punitive cost because of what cows are doing is nuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022625ca1d10f014f6489ea731bc233929b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022625ca1d10f014f6489ea731bc233929b\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate having the opportunity to speak in the Committee stage of this very controversial legislation going through Parliament today. I need to acknowledge Dr Nick Smith, because I thought that his motion, which he sought leave for before we went into Committee, was right on the button. Dr Nick Smith stood up in the Chamber, moved the motion, and said that this bill and its 1,000-odd amendments should be referred back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee in order for the public to have their say. Here is the Government and its support parties, including New Zealand First, and what a deal has been done to get this legislation through! This legislation should be back before the select committee and opened up for the public to have a say on. What a shonky deal these 785 amendments amount to! And the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, stood up here in the Chamber this afternoon and said that they were of a very technical nature. Well, why does he not let them be seen by the public in order for them to have their say? I do not think it is very transparent for the Minister to sit there and say that these amendments are of a technical nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI will make some contributions this afternoon on Part 1, and in particular on clause 5, \u201CPurpose\u201D. Then I will also make some comments on Subpart 4 in the new Part 5 to be inserted in the Climate Change Response Act by clause 43, which is to do with agriculture. The whole purpose of this legislation, when one thinks about it, is to be Helen Clark\u2019s flagship exit strategy for her CV, is it not? When she leaves Parliament she wants to be able to say that Labour got this legislation through Parliament and that she was a big part of it\u2014in other words, the Prime Minister wants to be a big part of this legislation. We on this side of the Chamber say to the Minister that we should slow this thing down. Let us try to line up with Australia and let the public have some buy-in to this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe saw what happened with the Electoral Finance Act, when the blade on the bulldozer just dropped down on the select committee process and Labour rammed that legislation through. As a result of the bulldozing that went on\u2014and it is happening again today\u2014we just have these huge, massive, wide loopholes that we can drive the bulldozer back through. Jim Anderton will find that out, because he has been hauled in front of the police. He is a person who supported the Electoral Finance Act. The Government seems hell-bent on wanting to push this legislation through, and National has some real concerns about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EOur concern, in particular, is that we want to get this process right. We want to ensure that we get it right for the backbone of this economy\u2014that is, agriculture, our pastoral sector. We still have not heard from either the officials or the Government about where the point of obligation actually lies with agriculture. We still have not heard about how one would measure the amount of carbon absorbed through the pasture. That detail is nowhere to be seen. If this is not going to change behaviour in terms of where the point of obligation sits\u2014whether it is at the farm gate or at the processing end\u2014it will be seen as just another tax. I admit that we need to change behaviour at the farm-gate level, and that will occur through getting the right mechanisms in place, not by dropping the blade on the bulldozer and ramming this legislation through. The answer lies in research and development; and, through time and some decent leadership, that research and development will actually occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b0f2fc20e714049b44184435eea5779\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222caf38e657944668ac9058631181b0b9\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Moroney scoffs. She is from a university town in the Waikato surrounded by farmers. I am looking forward to seeing her\u2014and David Bennett is really excited about it\u2014standing up and defending this policy platform when she is on the hustings in Hamilton. She scoffs but she knows she does not have a hope of winning that, because she cannot defend this policy when she gets out on the hustings. The answer lies in research and development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis legislation in its current form will need to be tidied up. If National is lucky enough to win the election, we will make sure we make the changes to ensure we get the process right. [Interruption] Doug Woolerton scoffs down the end there. We know the deal has been done with New Zealand First to support the legislation, and I look forward to hearing that member\u2019s contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002235e9fcaf348f435d942fa528d7f282d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235e9fcaf348f435d942fa528d7f282d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Both Nick Smith and Nathan Guy have asked for some clarity as to where the point of obligation lies in respect of emissions in the agricultural sector. It is as set out in the bill as it came back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Currently, it is at the processor level. The Government is happy for it to stay at the processor level. None the less, we will allow that to be changed to the individual farmer level if a decision is made by regulation, which must be promulgated by 30 June 2010. There are discussions through technical advisory groups with the agricultural industry to assess whether in their view it should be at the farmer level, but it is clear in the legislation at the moment that the default position is the processor level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364f4337158c493c93c678557f50971f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: So you don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9410cfca1645f3a226cf62cd20a398\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do know. I have just told the member what it is, and if he wants to read the bill, he will find it in subsections (12) and (13) in section 2A, to be inserted into the Climate Change Response Act, the principal Act, by clause 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDavid Carter rose to his feet and asserted that the cost for a 5,000 stock unit farm not using nitrogenous fertilisers would be around $150,000 per annum. He is out by a factor of 20. He should talk to the National Party members on the select committee. Had he spoken to them he would be aware of the advice given to the select committee by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry that showed that for sheep and beef properties with 2,500 stock units the profitability effect would be around $4,000 per annum after 2013, assuming that no measures to absorb carbon, such as planting forests, are taken. So if they do nothing, the effect of a 2,500 stock unit would be $4,000 per annum. A 5,000 stock unit would be twice that. It would be roughly $8,000, whereas the estimate Mr Carter gave was around $150,000 per annum. It is plainly an approximately twentyfold exaggeration. He should check with his members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would expect that the agricultural spokesperson for National would do a little bit more homework before making those alarmist statements, which are obviously designed to frighten New Zealand farmers rather than to elucidate the correct position. In respect of what would be the case if there was some planting on the property that stored carbon in trees, perhaps on its marginal lands, only a small percentage of land would have to be planted in order for there to be a profit overall from the effects of the emissions trading scheme on farming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002269dcdad65b924c889b3275bafa1e5e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269dcdad65b924c889b3275bafa1e5e1d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow on from the points the Minister in the chair, David Parker, just made in talking about the point of obligation in respect of agricultural emissions and the estimation of those emissions. I accept what the Minister said, which was basically that the bill in its current form has the processor level as being the fall-back position for the point of obligation but with an option open for it to be at farmer level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat I want to take up with the Minister is this. With the point of obligation as laid out in the bill being at the processor level, during the select committee process I asked the officials whether they could do an estimate for us. I stress \u201Cestimate\u201D, because members should all be aware that this bill does not propose we measure methane emissions from ruminant animals on farms; under this legislation we estimate them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI asked the officials to do a sample estimate for us of a processor, as this bill lays out. I asked them to take a processor, be it Fonterra, AFFCO, Silver Fern Farms, Alliance, or whatever, and do an estimate of the emissions this legislation would require. This is what happened, and I quote directly from the officials\u2014I think I am allowed to, because presumably all these reports have now been released. On 5 June we requested advice on this estimation. The officials came back and said: \u201CThe methodologies for accounting for agriculture GHG emissions at the processor level have yet to be developed. Therefore, it is not possible to undertake the necessary emissions calculations and provide a figure for uncertainty at the 95 percent confidence interval.\u201D I hope that people note what I quoted there: they said it was \u201Cnot possible\u201D currently to do the estimates that this legislation requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe officials went on to say: \u201CThe major component of uncertainty in the New Zealand methane inventory is the uncertainty around the quantity of methane emitted per unit feed of intake. Similarly in the nitrous oxide inventory the major uncertainty arises from uncertainties in the direct emissions of nitrous oxide per unit of nitrogen deposit on pastures. These key elements of uncertainty\u201D\u2014and what they said here to the committee is important\u2014\u201Cwill be the same for the national inventory or for specific emission methodologies developed for either a processor level or farm level point of obligation.\u201D The officials were telling us there that those uncertainties around estimation will be the same whether the estimations are made at the processor level or at the farm level point of obligation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe issue becomes one of how big these uncertainties are. Given the best estimates of estimation of, say, methane emissions from our ruminants\u2014from our sheep and cattle\u2014how big are these uncertainties? Again, I go back to the advice from the officials at the select committee. We were told that the way we estimate these is to take the number of sheep and cattle\u2014the number of ruminant animals\u2014and their dry matter intake, and where there is a methane conversion rate from that dry matter intake, we estimate their methane emissions from that. We cannot measure their dry matter intake. We cannot know how much the sheep and cattle around the farms of New Zealand are each eating. It is not possible. So we estimate how much they are eating from their yield of product\u2014from the meat yield, the meat going through a meatworks, the milk going to the processing plant, and so it goes on. We estimate it that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe problem with that, of course, is that the more efficient the ruminant animal\u2014the more efficient the cow is at producing milk, for instance\u2014the more the farmer will be clobbered for methane emissions. Even if the animal is a low methane emitter because of its particular diet, the farmer will be hit more for more methane emissions because it is producing more milk, with the way it is calculated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut that is not the main point I want to make. The main point I would make is that the officials told us that they could not do a range of estimate at a processor level\u2014and certainly they could not do it at a farm level\u2014but they could do at a national level the total methane emission estimate for New Zealand, taking our total production and our total number of animals. But the crucial thing is how accurate the figure is. I want members of this Committee to realise what we are passing legislation to do. What is the range of estimates of what we call the 95 percent confidence level? In other words, if one comes up with an estimate, what is the chance of that estimate being wrong more than 5 percent of the time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI will turn it round the other way. It is important for this reason. The officials came up with a figure. Taking New Zealand\u2019s total methane emissions into account, they came up with an estimate. They have done it twice; they did it in 1990, taking a 1990 estimate, and they took a 2001 estimate. In both cases the figure was just over 1,000 gigagrams per annum, and one gigagram is 1,000 tonnes, so we are talking there about just over 1 million tonnes. That was the mid-estimate point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut the crucial thing is, if one makes an estimate like that, what the range of figures that could be equally accurate is. The officials provided for us what we call the 95 percent minimum confidence figure and the 95 percent maximum confidence figure. In other words, if we come up with a particular figure, we might be wrong more than 5 percent of the time or we might be right more than 95 percent of the time. With that range in figures\u2014and remember the estimate was 1 million tonnes, or 1,000 gigagrams\u2014the minimum estimate at the 95 percent confidence level was exactly half of that, and the maximum figure at the 95 percent confidence level was 1\u00BD times the estimate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat that means, for the benefit of members of the Committee, is that the range of figures where we have no better accuracy, where we cannot tell that one figure is any more accurate than other, is over a threefold range. I am not talking about one figure being 5 percent, 10 percent, 20 percent, or 30 percent more or less than another figure, but about the range of estimates where we cannot be more certain that the accuracy is any lesser or greater. It goes from 500 to 1,500. This estimate was done for 2 years, 1990 and 2001. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI hope that members can see the issue here. The accuracy of the estimate at the point of obligation will be no more accurate, the officials have told us. The problems around variability in the estimates are just as great, because at the national inventory level we have complete knowledge over the total product\u2014over the number of animals. Some of those variables are actually taken out of the equation, and we average the efficiency of the individual animals. So in some ways one could argue that the national inventory figures are more accurate, yet the officials\u2019 advice to the committee was that we could not tell one figure to be more accurate than another over a range of threefold; from 500 through to 1,500 the accuracy of any figure within that range would be essentially the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHow do we, in all good conscience, legislate for our agricultural industry to come into a scheme when that is the accuracy of the estimates? I just put it to the Committee that this needs far more analysis before we impose this point of obligation, be it at farmer level, processor level, or whatever level. The variability is so huge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI have some experience in this area. I was a ruminant physiologist, so I know a little bit about the problems of estimating methane emissions. I would just put in front of the Committee the officials\u2019 own figures on this matter, which show that threefold range in estimation at the same accuracy level. There is no way at any point of obligation that one can run a scheme where a farmer comes up with an individual estimate and no one can be certain that that figure is any more accurate than one that is 50 percent less or 50 percent more. They could be equally accurate. How does one run a scheme that involves the purchase and releasing of carbon units when one cannot actually estimate any more accurately than that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI put it to the Minister in the chair that he should be up front with the public of New Zealand and this Parliament about the information that was provided to the select committee. When we asked the officials whether they could do an estimate for us to show us how it would work, they said that they simply could not do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e03a9ea0644648218e536d7cd3b84857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e03a9ea0644648218e536d7cd3b84857\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to raise an issue of particular interest to me. It concerns the fishing industry\u2014an industry that is our fifth-largest exporter, and has been for many, many years now. The Government has singled it out. The Government has decided that it will focus on\u2014and penalise\u2014that industry more than it has focused on other industries. I find that very, very surprising indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI do not know whether the Committee is aware that the fishing industry exports over 90 percent of what it catches and processes. In other words, it is a successful industry that is boosting New Zealand in terms of the world economy, and bringing returns back to this country. It exports well over 90 percent of what it catches and processes, and it earns $1.3 billion per annum. As it evolves more and more into an industry of added value, that sum is increasing every single year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EFor some reason, the Labour Government has decided to pick on the fishing industry. Initially, it cut that industry no slack at all when it came to the emissions trading scheme, but we have a recent announcement that the Government will cover 50 percent of its carbon credits going forward, up to the 2018 date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223499a477323d4d718c98d8dfa5e900c6\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba6fa8dc9304f5190e8b5c2c64bbe2f\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Woolerton might think it is good, and I know that he is a very, very close friend of a few individuals in the fishing industry\u2014we know that, because we read it in the Dominion Post\u2014but we have an issue here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c8c29ff28f4c07b1588c11a60bf161\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t declare it, though!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273221e6c31ff4665ba9ea17a87e13aac\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: He does not declare his very, very good friendship with them! We in this House are well aware\u2014and Doug Woolerton would be too, if he focused on others\u2014that the steel industry in New Zealand will have 90 percent of its credits grandfathered, covered over, or accounted for by the Government. The aluminium industry, which is overseas owned, will have 90 percent of its credits covered by the Government. The cement industry, which is largely foreign-owned, also will have 90 percent of its credits covered by the Government. But the fishing industry\u2014which is New Zealand - owned and our fifth-largest exporter, and which exports 90 percent of what it catches and processes\u2014will be covered for only 50 percent; not 90 percent like the steel industry, not 90 percent like the aluminium industry, nor 90 percent like the cement industry, but only 50 percent. In fact, agriculture gets a much better deal than the fishing industry does. Agriculture is also covered for 90 percent of its credits. The fishing industry, the fifth-largest exporter, will be covered for only 50 percent. And that came in only in the very late stages of the development of this legislation. I do not know whether Minister Parker had forgotten about the fishing industry and its contribution over many, many years. But the Government came up with 50 percent cover, which falls well short of the 90 percent cover that we see for those other industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe understand\u2014and it has not been disputed\u2014that we are looking at a total sum of about $20 million per annum, and that the Government is looking at covering $10 million per annum. If there were a level playing field, if the fishing industry were treated in the same way as agriculture, cement, aluminium, and steel, the Government would cover $18 million, and the cost to the industry would be $2 million. But, no, with no explanation at all, the Government has singled out the fishing industry and decided to penalise it much more than it penalises other industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn terms of emissions, the fishing industry is all about fuel consumption, because fishing vessels going to sea churn through an awful lot of diesel. We acknowledge that; there are emissions problems within the industry, and, of course, it is seeking to reduce its emissions, because, obviously, it wants to reduce fuel costs per catch. But the Government is saying to the fishing industry that it is not valued in the same way as the steel, aluminium, cement, or agricultural industries are valued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3461c8863844ef79bf69a423ec51ed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3461c8863844ef79bf69a423ec51ed9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about the nonsense provisions in the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill as they relate to a couple of very specific issues. My office has been inundated with faxes and messages from specific industries that have expressed very real concerns about detailed provisions of this bill, but given the way that this bill is being rammed through Parliament, I just want to mention two of those concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe first concern is in respect of the million hectares of pre-1990 forests. This bill says that if people want to change an area of land use, they can chop down the trees at their full maturity\u201428 years\u2014grow little seedlings and take those up to 7 years of age, then bulldoze them over. That is what this bill incentivises. I just plead with members, and I ask why on earth we would want to pass a bill that does that. I ask Harry Duynhoven\u2014there is quite a significant amount of forestry up there in his area\u2014why he would want to vote for a bill that does something as stupid as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there is a fault in the Kyoto Protocol. It states we can harvest the big trees at 28 years, plant little seedlings, get rid of those seedlings 6 months later, and have to pay the carbon tax only on the tiny seedlings. The Government has said that is a bit of a problem, but I say to Harry Duynhoven it is his Government that is religiously following Kyoto Protocol terms and putting them into New Zealand law, without putting its brain into gear. Members on this side of the Chamber say no, the provisions should make sense; they should make economic sense and environmental sense. But that provision does not make sense, and I am just appalled that members would want to pass provisions with such an obvious fault, which will result in waste and the inefficient use of land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut I bring another provision to the attention of the Committee. Today I received a fax from Fonterra, which is our biggest export company. We should be concerned that we are doing things right for it. The very important issue for Fonterra is that the provisions are grandparented and are able to become the point of obligation. Every one of us would know that the dairy sector is a big energy user, and Fonterra was assured by the Government that it would be able to opt in with regard to the use of gas and electricity, in terms of managing its obligations under the emissions trading scheme. Fonterra has set out, very effectively, that under clause 57 it will not get that option. Let me explain why that is the case. The bill allows those who use coal or natural gas to be able to take on the point of obligation only if they are directly acquiring the gas or the coal from the producer. The reality in both the gas and coal markets is that there are significant wholesalers and other players in both markets. The details of clause 57, as it stands, mean that those people will not be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Government will say that is a minor detail and will ask why one would bother about it, but, according to its own estimates, that minor detail has a cost associated with it of over $150 million a year. Are members so cavalier about the economic well-being of our country that they would ignore a little clause 57 with that sort of impact? That just shows the arrogance, recklessness, and irresponsibility of a Government that will oversee not just that issue but another 20 issues of that sort that I could roll out, where key industries have raised serious concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI would like to hear from the next Government speaker, first, why it makes sense for New Zealand to allow people to replant trees for 7 years, then put a bulldozer through them. How is that common sense? How does it possibly serve either the environmental or economic interests of New Zealand for us to pass a law that provides that sort of incentive? Secondly, I want the next Government speaker to deal with the very serious concern around clause 57 and the dairy industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224e0d81ab0d484d39b5a484b0396aceea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e0d81ab0d484d39b5a484b0396aceea\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I respect your wisdom in making that call, Mr Chairman. I start by saying that Lockwood Smith put his finger on the issue\u2014that is, we cannot estimate what the damage to this economy will be, because, first of all, we have no science to substantiate what the effect will be. That is the bottom line, and I would be interested to hear from the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker. But I say to members that in my herd of dairy cows I see a big variance. One cow can eat 18 kilograms of dry matter per day and produce 1 kilogram of milk solids, and another cow can eat 15 or 16 kilograms of dry matter per day and produce 2 kilograms of milk solids. I would like the Minister to take a call and explain to me how in one herd of cows we can see as big a variance as that, yet according to this legislation something like 50 percent of the nation\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions come from agriculture. I just say to the Minister and to the Committee that it is not correct and cannot be based on science, because the variance is so great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say also that no one has explained to us, so far, how changing forest from one area of a dairy farm or from a meat and wool farm to another area has a detrimental effect. How does changing land from forestry to viticulture, from flat, very fertile land that is suitable potentially for viticulture\u2014for example, the area where my colleague Nick Smith comes from\u2014and replanting somewhere else, have a detrimental effect on the environment? I would like to know the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI have another question for the Minister. How does it help the climate if we put a tax of the level that he spoke about, of $8,000 per year on a meat and wool farm of 5,000 stock units, as proposed in this bill, and, therefore, that farm reduces its production, and, because of a world food shortage, that production is picked up in Europe, where three times the carbon emissions from that production will result from that transfer? Certainly, it does not help the international climate one iota. I just say to the Minister that he will have to answer these questions at some stage during this debate, because they certainly have not been answered so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHow is it that we can have a forestry sector that has been in decline\u2014the single biggest area that would help in this issue of carbon sequestration to meet our carbon commitment under the Kyoto Protocol\u2014during the whole 9 years of this Government? The industry has submitted time and time and time again to this Government and has also submitted extensively on this bill through the select committee process, suggesting ways to turn that industry round and achieve the goals that the Minister is asking for, so how is it that the industry has not had one of its concerns addressed in this substantial legislation? That is another question the Minister can take a call on any time he likes, and give an answer to the House, because I know there is no answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is abundantly clear to National that the forestry provisions under this bill are seriously deficient. That is what the National Party minority report said, and I agree entirely with it. I cannot understand how the Green Party can support something that clearly is likely to have a negative environmental impact, not a positive environmental impact. There is one thing about the Greens. They stick to a series of principles\u2014or they have until now\u2014that are environmentally enshrined. Whether we agree or disagree with them, at least the Greens have that bottom line. On this, the Greens have broken it substantially. They have crossed that line. I listened to the speech of the co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons and I thought: \u201CYou have been severely compromised.\u201D I cannot understand how she would allow herself to be dragged to that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere is an urgent need for a fresh process of engagement with the forestry sector to develop a far more sound and practical approach to greenhouse gas emissions and plantation forests. That is what the National members on the select committee said in their minority report, and they are absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad1bda24d9f646d086bc479ade517db7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad1bda24d9f646d086bc479ade517db7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to some of the issues that have been raised in recent contributions from members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI refer to Dr Lockwood Smith\u2019s questioning of the methodologies for assessment of methane emissions. It is true that it is costly to measure methane at a per-farm level or, indeed, at a per-animal level, but, none the less, under the Kyoto Protocol every country in the developed world, including New Zealand, is already taking responsibility for methane emissions from its animals. It is important, with half of our emissions coming from the agricultural sector, that those emissions are included in the New Zealand emissions trading scheme; otherwise, the burden of the increase in those emissions is borne by other sectors of the economy\u2014either taxpayers or other participants in other sectors of the economy. If we do not include methane emissions, the agricultural sector will not be appropriately incentivised to try to reduce them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the fisheries industry point raised by Phil Heatley, it is a line call. The advice from officials was that we could justify not having a free allocation. The free allocation is in respect of transport fuels. We are not giving other sectors a free allocation in respect of transport fuels, but, none the less, arguably there is justification for some free allocation, and that is why, having talked about these issues with the support parties, we struck an agreement to have some free allocation to the fishing industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of Shane Ardern\u2019s point about carbon rights for forestry, this bill does what the forestry industry asked. It wanted devolution of the rights to carbon in forests. The bill devolves the benefits of carbon sequestered in new forests. It creates a liability for carbon released from old forests that are deforested\u2014that is, logged and not replanted\u2014at higher rates than was the case historically. We cannot have devolution of the benefits but not expect devolution of the disbenefits. They are two sides of the same coin. There is an appropriate overall incentive for the forestry industry through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u00220fd8b410072b4af684205fcac8d146f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fd8b410072b4af684205fcac8d146f3\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I should be feeling really excited about, and very supportive of, this emissions trading scheme bill, because National has always believed that an emissions trading scheme is the best way to deal with climate change. I still believe that New Zealand should pass an emissions trading scheme bill, but not this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIt is a tragedy that members are sitting in the Chamber today, arguing bitterly over probably the most important legislation that the New Zealand Government will pass in the next few years. This legislation is of such importance that plenty of time should have been taken over it, and the issues should have been dealt with thoroughly at the select committee. This bill is so significant that time should have been taken to iron out all the issues and to get all the parties onside. This bill should have been reconsidered and reworked until all the parties could agree on it. Instead, the whole process has been rushed. The process has been thoroughly flawed and totally inadequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that the New Zealand Government must do something about climate change. But, as a small agricultural country at the bottom of the world, we have much to lose if we do not handle this issue intelligently and effectively. We must get it right. The complexity and importance of this bill underpin the need for extensive consultation, creative thinking, and practical ideas. Indeed, numerous groups outside Parliament have put a great deal of time, effort, and resource into research and analysis of the issue, but the Government has turned a deaf ear to their ideas and has totally disregarded all their work. They are bitterly disappointed that their points of view and their ideas have been ignored. The 700 to 800 Supplementary Order Paper amendments to the bill tell their own story. A well-considered, well-thought-out, and fully discussed document would not require nearly 800 amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe bill has the potential to turn our economy upside down. We need to be very sure that we have teased out all possible economic outcomes. Economists have already estimated that an emissions trading scheme could cost anywhere between 22,000 and 50,000 jobs. I repeat: it is expected that anywhere between 22,000 and 50,000 jobs could be lost over this scheme. That would certainly turn the world upside down for a huge number of families. Furthermore, there have been estimates of billions of dollars in GDP being lost. Over the last few weeks I have heard from many constituents in Christchurch whose households are already feeling the pinch of the increased cost of living. I am talking about the cost of food\u2014the absolute basics. I am not sure how these people will manage if we have wholesale job losses in this country. I understand that the Government is talking about subsidising low-income families, but a Government subsidy of, say, $2.50 a week will do nothing for families if there are no jobs available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI said at the beginning of this speech that National members support having an emissions trading scheme, and we do. We support having an emissions trading scheme that balances the economic issues and the environmental issues. But we are also aware that New Zealand accounts for only 0.2 percent of global emissions, and that the emissions profile, to which agriculture contributes about 50 percent, is a difficult one to change. We need to take effective action on climate change, but to do it in such a way that we do not destroy our economy. After listening to many of the submissions at the select committee, it became clear to me that unless we were very careful about how we designed our scheme, we could easily export many of our businesses, and, with them, New Zealanders\u2019 jobs, to other countries that do not have such a scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002207db5e9cc4134e0b8f78fe571d7c34ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207db5e9cc4134e0b8f78fe571d7c34ab\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E The only incentive this emissions trading scheme bill provides to the agricultural sector is to go out and shoot the cows. That was said almost a year ago by members of the agricultural sector, when they first learnt of the provisions contained in this bill, and I believe that that sentiment is still true and still holds today. The only way that members of our agricultural sector can deal with the bill is to simply go out and put a bullet in the head of their livestock. Agriculture is New Zealand\u2019s primary export earner. This bill is the most significant legislation to pass through this House in my short time in Parliament. It has huge implications for my own electorate of Otago, and for Waitaki, and I strongly object to the provisions for agriculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI believe that the Minister sitting in the chair, David Parker, referred to other emissions trading schemes throughout the world. We know that the European Union excluded agriculture from its first emissions trading scheme. I believe that it is considering placing some form of control on agriculture, but it is in the form of science; it is not in the form of a punitive taxation regime that provides no incentive at all to the agriculture sector. All that the regime does is provide a crushing view of the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI bring to the Minister\u2019s attention, with reference to his attacking my colleague David Carter, the National spokesperson on agriculture\u2014perhaps the Minister should have spoken to his colleagues who sat on the select committee\u2014page 67 of the bill\u2019s commentary, where it says: \u201CHon David Carter replaced Craig Foss for this item of business.\u201D So I tell the Minister to keep up to speed\u2014I think it would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ENational does not believe that the agricultural sector can be\u2014nor should it be\u2014excluded from this emissions trading scheme bill, but it does have a unique place in the world. New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions are unique in that 50 percent of them come from agriculture. That is why it is so terribly important that we get this legislation right in terms of agriculture. A scheme that merely crudely imposes average costs on farmers, regardless of their farm management decisions, will achieve nothing other than to encourage farmers to reduce their stock numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe answers lie in the science. I refer to an article written by Mark Aspin, who is the Pastoral Greenhouse Gas Research Consortium manager. This consortium has been put together by Fonterra, Meat and Wool New Zealand, Dairy New Zealand, PGG Wrightson, the Fertiliser Manufacturers Research Association, DEEResearch, AgResearch, and the Ravensdown Fertiliser Cooperative. They are actually doing the work; they are doing the science. They note that \u201CThrough the Consortium we aim to develop solutions that will ensure a sustainable future both nationally and internationally. Our programme uses modern science to answer complex biological questions that are at the heart of efficient, sustainable farming systems.\u201D There is the future. There is the answer for agriculture. It lies in the science; it does not lie in the punitive regime outlined in this bill. The consortium goes on to say that \u201CThe Consortium\u2019s work programme is necessarily broad as it is not yet clear which areas will provide the necessary breakthroughs that will enable dairy farmers to continue to be competitive in the increasingly carbon conscious world.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThat is the way to go. National commits to working with the agricultural sector, rather than having this absolutely punitive, taxation-based part of the emissions trading scheme. The work contains three broad areas. One is measuring methanogens, which are rumen microbes\u2014and my colleagues have much greater knowledge of this field. None the less, that is the work that is being undertaken, and that is the work that needs to be done. It includes selective breeding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002259fad61bf2a34c1182981e85ba438081\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259fad61bf2a34c1182981e85ba438081\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to make my particular contribution to the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill and I do so first of all in a very, very confused state. In the Committee stage of the bill one accepts that there should be debate, and we are largely getting here today a very one-sided debate. Why is that? It is because National members want it on the record that we are not about not having an emissions trading scheme, but we do have significant concerns about this bill. I wonder why just the Minister is defending the stance. Yes, we have heard from the other, smaller parties, but it would be fair to say that we have not had vociferous debate or, in fact, defence from the parties that are pushing this bill through so hastily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe points I wish to make represent significant uneasiness on the part of the New Zealanders who live in the central South Island, where I live. They are worried about this bill. I have heard their concerns in mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury, and I have heard those concerns because those people rely on primary production for their economic prosperity, and they are very worried. Why? Well, as I have already said, National has said since 1999 that an emissions trading scheme is the way to go, so we are not saying that we are against it. But that confuses the people of mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury because they equate our willingness to go down this path with a willingness to perhaps go down the particular path that is drawn up in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBut then, of course, there are the amendments, as well. I have had to reassure those constituents, and I have asked them to read the 10-page minority report. Never before has a minority report been so long. Never before, perhaps, has it been so important for the Opposition to put down in writing exactly what is wrong with the bill. So I say to Labour, New Zealand First, and the Greens that my constituents are worried about the headlong rush to pass this bill before the looming election. The farcical number of amendments\u2014some 1,700-plus\u2014that have come since the end of the select committee process will, in fact, cause them even greater concern. They wonder how democracy is served by passing the second reading, Committee stage, and third reading of a bill that is so vastly different from the bill that was submitted on in the Finance and Expenditure Committee by the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe farmers and the business people for whom primary production is their future see New Zealand rushing headlong into a scheme that threatens their very future. Members should not forget the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report that indicated a potential loss of 22,000 jobs, and the Government\u2019s own Infometrics report that said possibly up to 50,000 jobs could be lost. Well, my constituents worry about it being in their part of the world, and about it affecting primary production and all of the support industries around them. They also worry about the losses to the economy\u2014the predicted $900 million by 2012; the possible $5.9 billion by 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI challenge the Labour, Green, and New Zealand First MPs to have less haste and more speed, but I am sure my challenge will fall on deaf ears. It would seem that they would rather see the primary production sector of this country\u2014in fact, our whole economy\u2014go down the tubes. They have not thought through what this particular bill will mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003ESo what can farmers do to mitigate their emissions? Well, they can destock. My colleague Jacqui Dean put it slightly differently\u2014I think her destocking involved a bullet to the brain. The technologies for reducing emissions are not yet clear. They are limited; they are not yet here. But New Zealand\u2019s reputation for getting technology, knowledge, and research and development around the primary production industry is renowned worldwide. We will get there, but we need time so that we do not go down the economic tubes in the meantime. We are, after all, 0.2 percent of the problem. So why are we\u2014this nation that is very different from other nations, with 50 percent of our emissions coming from primary production\u2014in such a headlong rush to affect our primary production industry? Well, I will tell members why. It is so that on the world stage the current Prime Minister can say \u201CLook what I achieved.\u201D Well, one day she may well be ashamed of what she will achieve with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002257af684792aa457cac096368fc0c7068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257af684792aa457cac096368fc0c7068\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to oppose the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill. Given that we are speaking on Part 1 and the purpose, I would just like to point out to the Committee that the purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to meet its international obligations under the convention and the protocol for Kyoto. I draw the hypocrisy of this Government to the attention of this Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7e5a3884a6f4a6fa97190f62a8ae650\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f943282e514aba9a6bcde3f5c89fee\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of this Parliament, and of this country. I say that New Zealand First and Helen Clark are part of this hypocrisy, and they are leading it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227edf014c31e14575939716577ef9531b\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: In seeking the call, I wish to ask you, Mr Chairperson, if I might have 5 minutes\u2014my original time\u2014reinstated, because to have 20 seconds sloped off is a bit rough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23f1dadb45f41f88206fae91da38ecc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I will look on that favourably, Mr Hayes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7ec5eb3a4e4eba98cea226a285ecc9\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. This Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill being promoted by Minister Parker represents politics triumphing over sensible policy development. This evening I want to bring two perspectives to our debate on Part 1. First of all, from a foreign affairs perspective\u2014and here I refer to clause 5 in Part 1, where the bill sets out that we are enacting this legislation to meet our international obligations under the Kyoto Protocol\u2014I point out to this Committee, and to the people of New Zealand, the inconsistencies between the Government\u2019s behaviour and this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ELet me quickly cover three areas. First, we are concerned about constraining carbon emissions here in New Zealand, but we are very happy to export coal to India where it is burnt without any form of sequestration. Second, our troops are keeping peace in the Solomon Islands, while Malaysian loggers are stripping out tropical rainforests that are the very lungs of this planet. I think that this is another area where the Government is being rather remiss in terms of what it is saying as compared with what it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe third perspective I have is that the first period of the Kyoto Protocol ends in 2012, and the reality is that there is absolutely no consensus on what to do next. There was the meeting in Montreal, and the meeting in Bali, where the G8 said \u201CLet\u2019s go for a 50 percent reduction in carbon emissions by 2050.\u201D\u2014it has picked up our National Party policy\u2014and George Bush was operating in Sydney, where he was promoting an Asia-Pacific group of countries pursuing aspirational goals of a 25 percent reduction by 2030. But it is not clear how any of this will mesh with a broad UN-based approach. There is no consensus about what the time period should be, what commitments should be made, and how we should share the burden of protecting our climate between developed and developing countries, and there is absolutely no consensus about how we can enforce the provisions of the Kyoto Protocol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI will now move away from the foreign affairs area and speak as the local member of Parliament for the Wairarapa electorate. It is an area that has been really knocked around by droughts over the last couple of seasons, and by low beef and sheep prices, but now we have this absolutely messy, loopy, silly, incomprehensible legislation, complete with 785 amendments, before this Committee. It is just absolutely outrageous. As I have said, it is clear evidence of politics triumphing over common sense. I think it is quite clear that the Government does not want to contemplate, at all, the damage it will do to farmers, fishermen, and foresters in my electorate, which stretches from Ngaw\u012B to north of Waipukurau. The Government clearly is not listening; it is making politically driven changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI think about a number of areas where we have concerns. The first is that the bill really discriminates against small to medium sized enterprises, and they are in a majority in my electorate. New Zealand is very dependent on small companies, and particularly companies in my electorate, for its foreign exchange. I think it is absolutely unreasonable not to have these companies included in a process that treats all people equally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAgriculture is our most important industry. It is a mainspring of the Wairarapa economy, but this legislation is going to put that industry at risk because it fails to resolve the issue of how to deal with the estimates of the difference in emissions. If we cannot measure the emissions from individual animals\u2014and there can be variations of plus or minus 50 percent, as my colleague Lockwood Smith mentioned earlier today\u2014a market cannot function effectively with that level of uncertainty. Part 1 fails to resolve the issue of whether the point of obligation should be with the individual farmer or with the processor, at this level. That is a fundamental design issue in the legislation that needs resolution by this Parliament rather than deferral to regulation. It is almost as if the Government wants international accolades for introducing an emissions trading scheme, when the scheme is really just an incomprehensible shell and none of the necessary machinery has been clearly thought through or is in place to function. I do not believe that the agriculture sector can be excluded from the bill, but because it is such an important contributor to our foreign exchange I think it is really important that we do not introduce legislation that will cause a huge problem for our farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EOver the last 3 years I have watched as indecision about this legislation has driven foresters in the Wairarapa to destroy a good bit of their plantings. There has been significant deforestation in my electorate over the last 3 years, and the principal reason for this is the confusion imposed by this Government on the people who work and operate in my electorate. I say to Mr Parker that this deforestation underlines a confusion that should have acted as a caution for those who are promoting this legislation, because we will end up with unintended consequences. I have had foresters emailing me today, saying: \u201CJohn, what does this bill mean for us in the next 3, 5, 10, 20, 50 years?\u201D. This scheme is the first, internationally, that attempts to include forestry in the legislation, and I think that that is a more difficult area than, for example, agriculture. In my electorate we have people who are harvesting m\u0101nuka honey. M\u0101nuka is a crop that is now bringing in $45 to $50 a kilogram for bioactive honey, and we are expecting the price to go significantly higher. If we are going to promote m\u0101nuka plantings from which to harvest that honey, what are the consequences in this legislation for those farmers? If we are going to convert pasture and hill country back into m\u0101nuka honey - producing areas that eventually transfer back into native bush, because that is the inevitability of what will happen, what sort of carbon credits will be available in that situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe other area that gives me great concern is that of fishermen in my area. The Wairarapa has a very large section of New Zealand coastline, and this legislation penalises New Zealand fishermen in comparison with those who come from offshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c25223fd6b964c51ac911aada9b81688\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What did you do for fishermen? Nothing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd8ffbc65c24ebebbdd9865d7e50076\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member\u2014I think his name is Mr Woolerton\u2014that those people who come from offshore and import their fuel with them will not be penalised by this bill in any way in comparison with people working out of Ngaw\u012B or other areas of the coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis is appallingly bad legislation. I do not think we have seen the like of it for many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002258751793b90845d7a61c281ca550348e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258751793b90845d7a61c281ca550348e\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E It is lovely to see perseverance rewarded eventually. I come to Part 1 of the most significant piece of legislation to be brought before this House in 20-something years from the perspective of a member of Parliament who represents Tamaki, one of the most urban of our electorates. The people of T\u0101maki will be reflecting on where this debate has been going. They will have noted members on this side of the Chamber, many with very, very strong rural backgrounds, talking about the clauses in Part 1 that relate to agriculture, to forestry, and to fishing. They are asking two or three questions. Firstly, they want to know what the rush is. Parliament is in its last couple of weeks of sitting, before the general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4010a012fc49a9aeda5289617b95d9\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What about the billion dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf46ad7fe0e446cc99a56d4148090eef\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: If I were a member of the New Zealand First Party at the moment I would be keeping my head down very, very clearly, and I would be watching my telephone very, very carefully for that call that says: \u201CMr Woolerton, this is the Serious Fraud Office. We want to talk to you.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2229b82a3474790ba88d9c9049d729b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the debate. Mr Woolerton is baiting you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa203b490504160a33b02dd67072e10\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: I come back to the issue here. This legislation as proposed can never be good legislation. In speaking to Part 1, I say that I would have thought the people of T\u0101maki would be thinking about those 785 amendments. Their comment and my comment to the Minister is that if one has to amend proposed legislation that many times, one should start again\u2014it is not good lawmaking. Any of the parties in this House that choose to vote for Part 1 are voting for very bad legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI would now like to turn my attention to Subpart 4, \u201CAgriculture\u201D, in new Part 5, inserted by clause 43. The people of T\u0101maki are not farmers. There are no farmers in my electorate, there is no forestry, and I do not think there is much in the way of fishing, except for recreation, of course. But many of those people work in industries that come directly from the productive sector, and they are asking why the Government is picking on the farmers, and why the Government is so determined to wipe out 20,000 to 30,000 jobs from this economy, when none of it is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWhen I reflect on the quality of the debate before the dinner break\u2014and I am sure the people of New Zealand noted this\u2014the constructive, positive, and reflective tone of the speeches on this side was interesting. One has to compare them to the muddled, confused, and indecisive responses that the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, gave to the issues that members on this side of the Chamber have been raising with regard to Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EIt is incumbent on the Minister, and I invite the Minister to take a call to finally clarify and answer the questions of my colleagues, beginning with those matters raised by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, who came right to the core of what this issue is about. Why rush?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d650c800ef9047ca8f223845c44204ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d650c800ef9047ca8f223845c44204ff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I will begin by responding to one of the issues that was raised by Jacqui Dean. She showed the somewhat inconsistent stance that is being taken by the National Party. She said pricing will not incentivise behaviour in the agricultural sector. Prices seem to incentivise behaviour in every other area in the economy. Why they will not do so in agriculture I do not know. She seems to fail to understand their effectiveness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean also said we should be investing in science. Well, the Government does not just say that; we do it\u2014we do it. This year we have invested $2.5 million through the Pastoral Greenhouse Gas Research Consortium. In addition, through the Sustainable Land Management and Climate Change Plan of Action, this year the Government contribution to research has been $5 million. Next year it increases to $10 million. The Fast Forward fund is a $700 million fund for the pastoral industry, some of which is earmarked for climate change research. That is an enormous amount of Government funding, matched by private sector funding, but it is opposed by National, of course. The Livestock Emissions Abatement Research Network, an international collaboration led by New Zealand, is getting $1 million per annum, and that is in additional to Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and Sustainable Farming Fund money. So an enormous amount will go into research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey stood up and said we should not pick on farmers. We have heard other members from National say that National thinks that farmers should be included in the scheme. Farmers are not being picked on. They are last to go into the scheme, and they go in on the same principle as anyone else. They are to be grandparented for 90 percent of their 2005 emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think that deals with the points that were raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4e0ab335220435eb1f6698b1b43b689\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4e0ab335220435eb1f6698b1b43b689\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a further call on Part 1, in order to complete the analysis of the changes to the bill that the Green Party has achieved. The one thing I did not have a chance to talk about in my earlier contribution was the question of the impact that pine forestry could have on New Zealand\u2019s biodiversity. A number of submissions to the select committee and, in particular, the analysis that was done by the Cawthron Institute of the likely environmental impact of the emissions trading scheme, pointed out that this great monetary incentive to plant pine trees could come at the expense of land that was in rare tussocks in the high country, land that had been regenerating in native forests ever since 1990, and other areas where there were biodiversity and ecosystems we would not want to lose. So the Green Party has always asked for there to be some conditions in the bill before one can get credits for planting pine trees just anywhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe strong reply we had, not just from the Government, but also from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, was that the place to deal with biodiversity is in the Resource Management Act, not the emissions trading scheme. There is no process in the emissions trading scheme whereby one can set criteria that pine forests have to meet. Fine, so we then proceeded to deal with the matter under the Resource Management Act. The problem under the Resource Management Act is that plans vary enormously in the standards they set. Some councils have set some quite good protections for biodiversity in their district plans, and others have none at all. What we need is consistency, and the way one gets consistency under the Resource Management Act is through a national policy statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EA national policy statement on biodiversity was attempted a few years ago. The Government basically stalled because it got too hard. We had another look at that and we have a commitment now that a national policy statement on biodiversity will proceed under the Resource Management Act; and because, with the best will in the world, promises 10 weeks before an election are not necessarily always implemented, we have a commitment that one of the targets legislated for in the bill, in the amendment we achieved, will be a date by which a national policy statement on biodiversity will be promulgated. Under the Resource Management Act, it takes about 2 years. We are concerned about what might happen in that 2 years until it is out, but it is about the best solution we can arrive at. So there will be a national policy statement under biodiversity, and I think that will be of benefit not just to the areas threatened with pine forest, but to the areas threatened with all kinds of vegetation clearance, with subdivision, with building, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThere is also a provision, now, in new section 166(1)(ba), for a statutory declaration to be made by those planting exotic forests for credits, to show that they have complied with all the provisions of the Resource Management Act so that, where their district council does have rules, they will make a statutory declaration that they have complied with them. That, of course, raises the penalty threshold considerably if they lie, and that, I think, will be a helpful matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI will reply to some of the general matters that have been raised all day today, by saying that criticisms of the bill seem to proceed mainly from the view that dealing with climate change is fine, as long as it does not cost anyone anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ea1eb40be74440a39413b410b9fd18\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Never said that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c754304a0986450aaf590358b3c9361e\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: Nick Smith may have never said that, but a lot of his colleagues did. The problem is that no one should have to pay anything. One would think, listening to members of the Opposition, that farmers were going to be up for a big bill tomorrow. In fact, farmers are completely subsidised by the taxpayer for 5 whole years until the end of the first Kyoto period, and then they are 90 percent subsidised by everybody else for a further 5 years before the subsidy starts to abate. Farmers actually have an exceptionally gentle deal under this legislation, and to some extent there is a reason for that. The technologies and the methods for farming that reduce nitrous oxide and methane are less well developed and less well verifiable under Kyoto than what can be done in an industrial factory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7eb2ccaef324079bc607601852ed1d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7eb2ccaef324079bc607601852ed1d3\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E As the previous speaker, Jeanette Fitzsimons, said, we are now 10 weeks from an election. I guess she has had a discussion with the Prime Minister on that date, so we assume the election will be on 15 November. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe concern I want to raise\u2014and many people have raised it\u2014is that passing the emissions trading scheme at this point is purely politics. It suits the Government, the Green Party, and New Zealand First to divide New Zealand on this issue; that is what they want. They have done that, on this very day, by putting in hundreds of amendments that no one could possibly have had an opportunity to analyse and consider. There has never been any serious consideration of referring this bill back to the select committee, even when hundreds of amendments were put to the select committee, yet we are now faced with hundreds more amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhat has been the strategy? The strategy has been to ignore business, and to ignore all the parties affected by this legislation. That is why Mr O\u2019Reilly of Business New Zealand can, quite realistically, issue a press release with the headline: \u201CCynical politics around emissions trading scheme\u201D. That is exactly what we are faced with\u2014cynical politics intended to divide New Zealand on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI can tell the Minister that I have had numerous phone calls over the last few weeks from people who would like to know what an emissions trading scheme actually means. One of the reasons those people are making those phone calls is that the Government, and indeed Mr Parker, has chosen to make this a partisan, political issue. In that environment one simply cannot properly explain the situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere was another approach. Dr Nick Smith wrote to the Government back in 2005 to ask for a more considered way of doing this. It would have meant dialogue and it inevitably would have meant compromise\u2014by both sides; the Government and the Opposition would have had to compromise, as would the sector groups, as well. That is what would have been required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn that situation there might have been the possibility of having a proper sustainable emissions trading scheme with public consent, because, as Mr Groser said, this is a bill for not just 1 year or 2 years. Realistically, I guess, it is expected to at least last until 2020\u201412 years. That is four elections away. No one could possibly imagine that one Government would last four elections from here until then. The truth is that Governments change, so this bill has to embrace the broad views across this Parliament, which is a multiparty Parliament. A consensus approach, as has been practised in other countries, would have been able to forge a decent approach in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ELet us look at just one issue: the pre-1990 forests. The Government says\u2014I think quite naively\u2014that it is locked into a commitment that does not enable the owners of pre-1990 forests to plant on equivalent land. That is not the same land that they harvest from, but equivalent land. The Government says that the protocol simply does not allow that; therefore, the legislation bans it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would say to the Government that surely, if New Zealand is leading in developing an emissions trading scheme\u2014and I recognise that we are\u2014then we could have told our Kyoto Protocol partners that we would make that change in the interests of implementing this particular legislation in our circumstances. I would be prepared to say that there would have been no protest from our Kyoto Protocol partners. They would have looked at the bigger issue, which is how important it is to get the process of emissions trading schemes implemented, not just in New Zealand but also in Australia, Canada, Europe, and the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EInevitably there is a certain level of adjustment. Everyone knows that an agreement made at the international level back nearly a decade ago could not possibly take into account every detailed circumstance. In truth, in international relations, a certain amount of flexibility is given on that. This Government has ignored that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002285aa274ab1cb41fc8767caa8e16123e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285aa274ab1cb41fc8767caa8e16123e0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this afternoon the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues took umbrage at some comments that I had made about the reasons why United Future was not supporting the emissions trading scheme. He suggested to the Committee that we had made our call not to support the bill without ever seeking to become involved in any of the discussions on the question of household compensation, which we are very concerned about. I want to correct the record this evening. I have checked the number of occasions since the bill was introduced on 11 December last year that I raised this matter in the House. I raised it during my first reading speech, on 11 December. I raised it again during my speech on the Budget Policy Statement, on 12 March, I raised it in questions on 13 May, 17 June, and 26 June. And I spoke about it in my Budget speech on 22 May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe thing that really annoys me is that my having raised this matter in the House on six occasions, at no point did the Minister or any of his officials\u2014and I ask members to bear in mind that the questions were posed to him\u2014come to us to say: \u201CWe understand you have an issue here. Can we sit down and talk about it? Given the fact that we have given a commitment, we are going to make some changes in order to compensate households.\u201D Yet the Minister gets up in the House and says we were not even interested. We were interested. We raised the issue on a number of occasions, and when it became clear to us that we were talking to a brick wall, we decided to withdraw our support. We are confidence and supply partners of this Government, yet at no stage, once this bill was introduced, has its Minister done us the courtesy of coming to us to talk about the bill and some of the steps going forward. That may well be the Government\u2019s call; I respect that. But for the Minister to get up in the Chamber today and imply that our opposition is based on our not wanting to engage is simply wrong in every respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI have a great deal of respect for the Minister. We have worked together on a number of issues. I am very disappointed that he chose to take that attitude on this matter. I would have thought that when a colleague, on six separate occasions over a 6-month period, raised a consistent pattern of concern, the Minister would actually talk to him, given that the Minister was touting for votes on a bill. I do not know why the Minister did not do that; that is his call. But the reality is that he has ended up with a flawed system, and then he wonders why we are opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis bill is an important bill for New Zealand. We have made it clear right from day one that we support the concept of emissions trading, with adequate compensation. That second bit has got lost sight of. I go back to the point I made earlier\u2014and I acknowledge Mr Groser\u2019s comments earlier about it\u2014that if this bill is passed but is not sustainable in the court of public opinion, it will fail. All of the work that has been done\u2014all of the work that has been done by officials on the development of not just this bill but earlier measures that did not get off the ground\u2014and all of the people who made submissions to the select committee will have been let down by this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that it is simply not good enough to be driven by some political agenda that says that the short-term interests of the Government of the day outweigh the long-term interests of New Zealand, and therefore the Government will pass a piece of legislation. Already the Government has had to bring in 700 to 800 amendments. All that we are doing by hurrying is ensuring that we will have to amend this bill again and again. That is legislation that is not good, it is legislation that is not credible, and it is legislation that will not serve this country well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EUnited Future\u2019s experience is that when challenges are made, the Government simply shuts down on talking to people. If that experience is any guide, we are not going to make progress. None of us, probably, will be here in 20 years\u2019 time; we owe it to those future generations to put in place now legislation that will pass the test of time. The way in which the Minister has behaved in respect of the issues I have raised over the last few months indicates that he has no great commitment to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThat is the record, and I wanted to put it on the record of the Committee tonight, because the Minister\u2019s interpretation earlier on was simply wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002289d87b4246aa4039a65d10dde837e14f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289d87b4246aa4039a65d10dde837e14f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I feel obliged to put on record my account of the events that the previous speaker, the Hon Peter Dunne, referred to. I spoke to Mr Dunne, we had meetings in my office, and I offered him additional briefings\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b364207e867e4a9db3c430bcec6495a3\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Before the bill was introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a72445669a4d34935f1cf5ab385d2f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014before the bill was introduced. I recall that we met also after the bill was introduced. We met at least twice. I offered additional briefings from officials, if he wanted them. The member chose to withdraw support from the bill at approximately the same time that the National Party did\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccd2647ef4bf45e79362fa7bc8e95209\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was actually ahead of them\u20141 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d0b8051bc5640ea8f5fe820c4162c8b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014ahead of it, on 1 July\u2014before we were in negotiations with New Zealand First and the Greens as to the amount of the compensation package. I am surprised that he has managed to take umbrage, because those parties, faced with the same events, did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002242edf8db2ab04310a62e7360969605f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242edf8db2ab04310a62e7360969605f1\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I say to the Hon Peter Dunne, who spoke before, and who was clearly very concerned, very upset, about the process with regard to the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, that he may well find rather rapidly that Labour is a political and legislative Government he would have been well designed to miss. I look at a statement just made by Business New Zealand. I would argue that Business New Zealand is fairly measured in its comments, generally. But it has started to use language like \u201CThe number of hasty back room deals we\u2019ve seen with minor parties makes a mockery of the Government\u2019s stated desire to consult widely.\u201D, and it has carried on and said: \u201CIt\u2019s just self-serving politics. The fact we\u2019ve got literally hundreds of SOPs in the house right now is further evidence of a political circus.\u201D Those are not my words but the words of the head of Business New Zealand. I think, perhaps, that Mr Dunne may be well out of it, I tell him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI will take up the points made by my colleague Dr Wayne Mapp about forestry, but I will put them in the broader context of land use, land use change, and forestry. I recall a point I was making earlier that this was essentially grafted on to an agreement amongst industrial countries, and there are many, many serious flaws in the treatment of land use change and forestry. In the greater scheme of things\u2014perhaps during the first commitment period\u2014for annex 1 countries, for developed countries, perhaps that does not matter too much. After all, agriculture for the European Union accounts for only around 3.4 or 3.5 percent of its emissions, and the European Union is a very large part of the developed world. So one could argue that, well, for a first effort as an international agreement, perhaps complete accuracy is not important in the scheme of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, there is a country that is a sharp exception to that, and that country just happens to be the country called New Zealand. As we all know, although in the case of one other annex 1 country, Australia, agriculture does creep up into very significant figures\u201418 percent of Australian emissions, from memory, are from agriculture\u2014in the case of New Zealand, it accounts for practically 50 percent of our total emissions. So the very casual rules around land use, land use change, and forestry, although perhaps not major lacunae in the scheme of things on a broader international basis, are a fundamental problem for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EOne might have thought that a Government that was conscious of New Zealand\u2019s growth problems would want to take that into account when designing the policy response of this one country for which those slack rules are a fundamental problem. The point here is that we are gaining a system that will almost certainly change. There is an enormous degree of naivety in the Government\u2019s slavishly following that one set of rules in the overall framework of the Kyoto Protocol, when that clearly not only will change but must change. The reason it must change is that although it is really only a problem for one small developed country in the first commitment period\u2014that small developed country being none other than our very own dear small country\u2014it will matter hugely to developing countries. Although New Zealand is literally unique in terms of its emissions profile amongst developed countries, New Zealand is not at all unique when we put the broader picture of developing countries into the equation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EOne thing is clear: although nobody in this room, nobody in this country, and, frankly, nobody anywhere understands what the next successor agreement will be, we all know that if there is to be a successor agreement, in one way or another it must include the major developing country emitters. If it is to achieve its objective\u2014and I have completely fluid views on what that might be, because I accept the principle of common and differentiated responsibilities, which is derived from the World Trade Organization concept of special and differentiated treatment; we would never expect developing countries to do exactly the same, in exactly the same time frames, as developed countries. But one thing is clear: it is almost inconceivable that we will have an international framework in the second commitment period unless the developing countries do something, and that means the rules on land use, land use change, and forestry not only will change but have to change. We are gaining a system that will not last. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d49ceffc1c844c8c9136d8ebc6ba1501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d49ceffc1c844c8c9136d8ebc6ba1501\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3c065344d64870a6afcbc8b24c533c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3c065344d64870a6afcbc8b24c533c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that the Government wants to move a closure motion, when today we have witnessed an abuse of the parliamentary process by which it has introduced 785 amendments\u2014785 amendments\u2014without the consultation and the scrutiny that we would expect in a select committee. That has been a complete insult to this Parliament, and now the Government at this hour wants to move a closure motion. Well, we will not have a bar of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe have some very important points we want to articulate. One of the things that has come out of this is that no calculations have been done about what this scheme will really cost. We have heard various figures mentioned by speakers. The Minister said that if one has a property with 5,000 stock units, then the cost is about $8,000. We have heard other figures floated around, and then the Green member said that agriculture is excluded until 2013. What she did not realise and was not prepared to say was that farms do not run on thin air. One has to put fuel in one\u2019s tractors and one has to have power, and a cost is associated with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI will focus on emissions from agriculture, because in my area, in the heart of the Waikato, agriculture is a significant player in our economy. There are a number of possible options for managing emissions. I will just go through and mention them. They could have included project-based trading, regulating controls, levies, voluntary measures, or\u2014as in the case that this bill looks at and supports\u2014the emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ELet us consider these options in turn, even though some of them are not in the bill. What is project-based trading? Eligible individuals, businesses, or organisations could propose emissions reduction projects to the Government. These projects would be variable. They must be emissions reductions additional to any reductions that would otherwise occur. The key issue in a project like this on a base trading process would be in setting the benchmark. What would be the benchmark against which projects are measured, and how would it be assessed? This would have to be done on a business-as-usual basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe heard earlier in the debate before the dinner break that we do not really know how to assess what the projected emissions will be. There is no certainty in it. They will all be set only as an estimate. Dr Lockwood Smith referred to this point earlier in the debate. One can only estimate emissions. There is no certainty, but the bill claims that there is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe second option for managing emissions could have been regulating measures. These could have included controls on stock densities, on the number of stock units per hectare, on fertiliser usage, and on pasture management. This option could also have referred to the retirement of some land from agriculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe third measure for managing emissions could have been levies. This could have provided for the Government to levy farmers to recover the costs of emissions permits if they needed to be purchased. Mind you, that is not to say that in the future this devious Labour Government will not have that one ring-fenced and that it would not bring it in if it needed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe fourth measure could have been voluntary measures, relying on voluntary, non-financial measures. However, relying on voluntary measures alone would leave the Government with an open-ended liability for any emissions that exceed the 1990 levels. Research is the key to reducing emissions, and I know that the agricultural sector is receptive to this approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBut what this Government has embarked on is the emissions trading scheme. Emissions trading brings with it uncertainty for agriculture, because the price of emissions permits cannot be accurately predicted and it can vary from time to time. The question has been asked as to what this will cost. We have not heard the answer to that question. As emissions can be only estimated, the situation creates uncertainty. A major issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00222ba8eb795c1c400182f47c8da15d914c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ba8eb795c1c400182f47c8da15d914c\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, Mr Chairman. I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a70da04e8ded4d7e8d8b4349b55c28c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a70da04e8ded4d7e8d8b4349b55c28c2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but I cannot accept the motion. I am just checking my notebook to see who has had a reasonable call and who has not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ac8a994dfb44d63988b0b4c02e5e85c\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: One more minute, Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c665163779a449f8af19bfff577a87b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: One more minute, Mr Tisch? In that case, the member gets the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226edb33af6cb7425bae6e530739f3f012\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226edb33af6cb7425bae6e530739f3f012\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E A major issue has been the point of obligation. The point of obligation is that businesses and organisations will be required to monitor and report emissions. At the end of each recording period, they will be required to hold a quantity of emission permits that are equal to, or are more than, the emissions. The bill states that the point of obligation is with the processor. It could be with the exporter or some other upstream organisation. Businesses will probably seek to pass the cost of buying the emissions permits to farmers or consumers. The Minister said that the point of obligation could be changed from being in a regulation, and put on to the farmer. My view is that the farmer will pay anyway, whether through regulation or through this legislation. Why should we rush this bill? This is about political expediency\u2014that is what it is about. This afternoon we had 785 amendments that we did not see until they were tabled today. This bill is about political expediency, and it is not good governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u002278f921b34dd04f5ba4602c4b2adca2e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278f921b34dd04f5ba4602c4b2adca2e6\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220533f4ecb27a4971b5c1aa293d5e586f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000533\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 240 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to insert new clause 2A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f43065eba1404a25ac4cfd8373e4b020\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000534\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 43 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000535\u0022\u003Eto insert in section 148B the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000536\u0022\u003E(aa)\tThe prescribed criteria in subsection (a) must include criteria requiring that the offset forestry land will sequester the carbon dioxide equivalent of the pre-1990 forestry land over time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3444c8ccfd0483199d60710da53a942\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000537\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 44A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000538\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229255c035682449798c020dbced287241\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000539\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Papers 231, 232, 238, and 239 in the name of the Hon David Parker to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002240a321a484164267b365d77686a18453\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022edd232caf97147c6b00e94e1a3db8a77\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002246d22d073b7b48bd9f0809c2cc98ef87\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Electricity Act 1992\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00223a470fd735dd400a9e9837f3bfe07c4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a470fd735dd400a9e9837f3bfe07c4d\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in opposition to Part 2 of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, just as I did to Part 1, and I do so on a number of grounds. First, I want to pick up on the parting comments of the co-leader of the Green Party, when she said the agricultural sector had been excluded from this bill. I just could not believe what I heard. I think what she meant was that it does not take effect on agriculture until 2013. But what she forgets in that discussion and in that debate is that the agricultural sector is one of the biggest users of energy in this country: of electricity, fossil fuels, and many, many other types of energy affected by the passing of this legislation today, if in fact that happens. I am speaking on behalf of those industries now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe forestry industry, for example, has a huge opportunity to develop co-generation on site at the various processing sites around the country, but it has been denied that opportunity under the leadership of this Government over 9 years, because the kind of development it proposes would never get through the Resource Management Act. Now the Government is to put in place this legislation, which offers another imposition on those industries that want to develop electricity generation. I am talking specifically to Part 2, because I would have thought that in this bill there could be some amendments to take account of that very fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe irony is that the forestry sector has the opportunity, like no other industry has, to actually achieve the goals that the Government states are its objectives in this legislation. The first, of course, is growth, because the forestry industry is the third-largest exporting industry in this country, and, secondly, it has a carbon sink value that no other industry has, or has the capability to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBut what have we seen? Let us have a look at what has happened under the term of this Government. We have seen deforestation on a scale that we have not seen for a long time. From 1951 until 2003 New Zealand built up a forestry resource of 1.9 million hectares of trees. That is what happened during that period. Under successive Governments, Labour and National\u2014although if one looks at the figures, one will find that the forestry sector grew much more strongly under National than it did under Labour\u2014the forestry sector grew throughout that time to a massive resource of 1.9 million hectares. In 2006, 12,900 hectares were cleared, with no intention of being replanted. There are no intentions at this stage, unless there is a major change in policy, for that land to be replanted. Clear-felling has peaked at 13,600 hectares, which is the latest figure I have of clear-felled forest that will not be replanted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker to stand up tonight and tell us how that is going to be addressed in this bill, because the single best thing that could happen in terms of climate change policy in this country would be to reverse that trend and get those trees planted again. The Minister has no answers. We have asked that question over and over tonight, and there is no answer to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI notice that the Chairperson is indicating that I should come back to Part 2 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e29235c4138e45499e3050c16df13088\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Amendments to the Electricity Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022649f8a174c0a4071b987cc1314723e35\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in new Part 6A, inserted by clause 67 of the bill, section 62A, \u201CPurpose of this Part\u201D, states: \u201C\u2026 to reduce the impact of fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generation on climate change by creating a preference for renewable electricity generation\u201D. I talked tonight about the co-generation plans of the forestry sector that are completely renewable, but this Government has stopped that development from taking place. So why does the Minister not take a call and explain to us why at least five or six major players out there that wish to invest in major processing in New Zealand, and another five or six that have looked at doing so, have been denied that opportunity? When they look at the amount of compliance that they would have to meet\u2014and here is another layer of compliance right here in this bill that they will have to meet\u2014they have said things are just too tough, so they are going to Australia. They do not want to do it here, because things are better for them in Australia than they are in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5bdde85ead74ff1a04bdfedf9fe9894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5bdde85ead74ff1a04bdfedf9fe9894\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E There is little doubt in my mind that this part of the bill was very much an afterthought, and it is interesting to note that the line \u201C10-year moratorium on new\u201D thermal baseload is now altered to read \u201C10-year restriction on new baseload fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generation capacity\u201D. I have no doubt that the harsh reality of our current electricity difficulties have impacted on the Minister and have encouraged him to require this particular change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis year we have had an extraordinary sort of year as far as reliance on renewable sources is concerned, with the low lake levels, and it has meant that at times up to 50 percent of the electricity consumed by New Zealanders has been generated from thermal plant at various points around the North Island. The likelihood of there being a continuing problem, with lake levels not meeting expectation or, effectively, storage running out too quickly, and of that situation continuing for some years is, I think, very, very high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other question that we would have to ask is why we would ban thermal fossil-fuelled generation completely, as was the Government\u2019s first intention, and then have so many out clauses for the possibility of that generation being granted approval by the Government. I think one of the reasons is that it just makes good sense to take the worst of our fossil-fuelled plants out of service and replace them with other plants that can not only fire up very quickly but also make greater use of the energy fed into them in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIf one were to look at the e3p plant at Huntly, which is fed by electricity and is a three-stage electrical generation plant, then it is an extremely good\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3ff428de454772bda0f1bd97ac80bd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It is fed by gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf123fcd7b594f6c98e87d4c5d402fba\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, I say to Mr Mallard\u2014well done! It is fed by gas, that is right. And if the member took off the cloth ears, he would know that I said it is much more efficient at using the energy fed into it. I tell Mr Mallard that gas, when it is burnt, is energy. That poor fellow indicates to us why the Labour caucus has been so compliant in allowing the Minister to get away with the sort of nonsense represented in this particular part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELet us look for a minute at what would happen if the electricity industry was encouraged to replace the capacity of the Huntly coal-fired plant with gas as a fuel source. Over a very short period of time New Zealand\u2019s emissions from the electricity sector would substantially reduce. It would have the same amount of output, yet it would have a much, much reduced carbon dioxide emission. I see the Minister of Finance over there saying: \u201CAh, the member has got it.\u201D Because that would be new, that is banned. Replacement is not banned. Oh no, those members are shaking their heads again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhat we are finding is that this is a policy on the hoof type of deal. Those members do not want to tell New Zealanders that, or want to say that if our electricity demand continues to grow at its current rate, if we ban the use of fossil fuels and new plants, and if we rely entirely on the wind always blowing, the rivers always flowing, or the lakes always filling, then we will have more years of the sort we have had just at the moment. Interestingly, I tell Mr Parker that no one in the industry would disagree with that. Everyone says that if we want to have the opportunity to get anywhere near the 90 percent renewable target, then it will have to be backed up by good thermal capacity for those days when the weather lets us down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo I would like a bit of clarification from the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, as to how, if he were the Minister of Energy, he would exercise his opportunities under section 62F, which is to be inserted in the Electricity Act by clause 67. This part of the bill states that the Minister of Energy can grant an exemption from what is effectively a ban\u2014although in this bill it is now called a moratorium\u2014with all sorts of outs in it. If the Minister is able to indicate to the Committee why he thinks this makes the whole ban, or moratorium, more palatable to the industry, then we would be very interested to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9eb88532c3046bcb1cfe914e93bf1c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9eb88532c3046bcb1cfe914e93bf1c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E No area of public policy around climate change is as big a mess as what we have in respect of thermal generation. Let us just look at the Government\u2019s own record over the last 9 years. Despite all the talk of increasing the amount of renewable electricity, every year that Labour has been in office we have actually seen a decrease in the amount of renewable electricity. When Labour became the Government it was 72 percent of New Zealand\u2019s electricity. Last year it got down to just 66 percent. The latest prediction for this year is that it will be as low as 56 percent. Why on earth should anybody believe that this Government will get to 90 percent renewables when it has been going backwards for 9 years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen there is the absolute contradiction in public policy. The Government came along in 2002 and used public money to build the new Whirinaki diesel power station. This Government is supposedly the carbon neutral world leader on global warming, and it is spending our money building a dirty, great, fat diesel power station. A few years down the track it actually provided a Government guarantee to build the biggest new thermal generator since Huntly was built. Now, is it not extraordinary that it would do that and then, 6 months later, put a ban in place? One minute the Government is intervening in the market to build more thermal electricity, and the next minute it does a backward flip and puts a ban in place. That is the sort of mixed bag of confused public policy that has got the New Zealand electricity sector into the awful mess that it is in, and it has seen greenhouse gas emissions, from that one sector where one actually can do something about it, grow faster than ever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we have the botched provisions of this bill. David Parker talks about the importance of market instruments\u2014getting a price on carbon\u2014and the moment he has got a bill to do it, he says: \u201COh, I don\u2019t trust the market. I\u2019ve got to slap some regulations in there, as well.\u201D We say he is mistaken. We say it is confused, and the overwhelming evidence to the Finance and Expenditure Committee was that it is confused. The Minister talks about it being a ban; it is a Clayton\u2019s ban. There are so many outs in this ban that it is exactly what Business New Zealand has today said it is\u2014cynical politics and a political circus. It has said that there has been no listening, and that these latest politically driven changes will mean the scheme and this bill will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about what is best for New Zealand. It is not about what is best for the environment or about New Zealand doing the responsible thing. This bill is about crude, simple, Labour Party branding. The branding of the Labour Party is far more important, it seems, than the interests of New Zealand. What National has said\u2014and we said it in our document A Bluegreen Vision for New Zealand over 2 years ago\u2014is that we want to get a market price through an emissions trading scheme and then let that market operate\u2014but it is just nuts, just foolish, to then extra-regulate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI put it to the Minister in the chair, David Parker, this way. During this Government\u2019s term the amount of electricity produced from coal has trebled. I tell members that during the 1990s the Huntly power station operated for an average of 2 hours and 20 minutes per day, and under this Government it has operated on average for 8 hours and 40 minutes per day. And the Government wonders why New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions have gone up by over 26 percent and we are miles away from meeting our Kyoto targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI simply say to any New Zealander who is concerned about climate change: \u201CLook at the Government\u2019s record.\u201D It can pass all the silly legislation it likes, and it can build as many diesel or gas generators as it likes; its record is awful. This bill is poor public policy. We do not need all these extra instruments; what we need is a price on carbon. I know there are rumours all around that Dr Cullen has never supported this stupid thermal ban. We know that a large number of other Ministers do not support this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00228c9197250f1b4fffa4497af23d67a346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c9197250f1b4fffa4497af23d67a346\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill amends the Electricity Act 1992 and inserts new Part 6A, which restricts new fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generating capacity. If we look at new section 62A in Part 6A, we see that the purpose is to create a preference for renewable electricity generation. I do not think anyone would have any problem with that, but it is the matter of how it is done. Section 62A also places a \u201C10-year restriction on new baseload fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generation capacity, except where an exemption is appropriate\u201D. That sounds very much like a New Zealand First reaction to any questions about donors\u2014saying \u201Cyes\u201D, then \u201Cno\u201D. This legislation creates a number of exemptions to a policy, but I think it can be done in a number of other ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EEverybody needs and understands the requirement for renewal electricity generation in our country. We have a proud history of being a renewable electricity generator, and previous generations of New Zealanders have invested heavily in hydro-electricity generation. That investment put us in a very good position, leading into this modern time when renewable energy has become such an issue of the day. That investment set New Zealand up in a very good position where we could have that \u201Cclean, green\u201D image that we have portrayed around the world. Something that New Zealand probably needs to have a good, hard look at is how we make that renewable capacity in the future, because that is the real answer for our ability to deliver in this area. It is not an issue on which we can change our focus quickly; these are long-term goals, they take long-term investment, and they need to have Government support\u2014not necessarily financially but certainly support in the concept of renewable electricity generation. I think we are seeing that in New Zealand at this time, just as we are seeing it worldwide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWill Part 2 of this bill actually achieve the goal of achieving that renewable energy capacity? That is the question. National believes it will not. We say there are other ways and other mechanisms that will be more appropriate to achieve that goal. New Zealand definitely has to move in that direction. With such a high percentage of renewable energy available, we have an opportunity to get back to the even higher percentage that we had in many past generations. That is something that would achieve our goals long term as a country. This legislation, which we are debating today under such strict time conditions, does not give New Zealanders the ability to look at those options and discuss them. This legislation is being debated for the reasons of political expediency. It is being passed as part of the scorched earth policy of the Labour Government in its last weeks in office. It is being passed in an attempt to kick the guts of the New Zealand heart of agricultural and industrial growth. It is being passed at a time when New Zealanders are struggling financially, and the implications of this legislation on the budgets of ordinary Kiwis are yet to be seen. Many New Zealanders will pay the consequences of this legislation in the future, and at a time when they can least afford to do so. New Zealanders are in a very dire predicament at the moment. We have a recession, we have a Government that has no intention of lifting us out of recession, we have high interest rates, and we have high fuel costs and high primary costs of production for raw materials and foodstuffs. To put more costs on to New Zealanders at a time when they are struggling is something that is not in their best interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHowever, we must also address the issue of climate change, and we must address the issue of renewable energy and electricity generation. There are better ways of doing that than this bill. This bill is a sort of last-minute reprieve by the Labour Government in its dealings with some of the minor parties. It does not show a lot of confidence in the political system. It does not show a measure of dedication to get the debate going or to have constructive ideas. There is no need to pass the biggest piece of legislation this Parliament will have seen this term, in the last week of the term of the Parliament. There has to be an opportunity for debate, for people to put forward new and constructive ideas. There has to be an opportunity for some compromise in legislation like this, as we move forward and deal with these issues. We cannot have a Government and political party supporting it that are passing legislation just on a whim, just on what they feel will look good on a piece of paper, without actually reflecting on the detail of it or reflecting on what it could mean for New Zealanders in the long term, and also reflecting on what it means to the country as we try to promote renewable electricity generation in the future. So we have some major problems with Part 2. It is something that has not been thought through by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec7226e571574ca98c15f50e299dfcf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec7226e571574ca98c15f50e299dfcf7\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on Part 2. I want to pick up on a comment of my colleague Dr Nick Smith that National certainly supports the 90 percent renewable energy target, but, of course\u2014and it will not be a surprise\u2014we would have a different method of reaching that target. I must say that this is an area in which the Government\u2019s climate change policies have failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, David Parker, to clarify this particular issue. From our point of view it seems that the Government\u2019s interventions in the electricity industry have been contradictory. I challenge the Minister to stand up and refute that. Far from moving New Zealand towards the goal of 90 percent renewables, which I think was the Government\u2019s aim, the proportion has fallen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a7a416ef274d88a4da146b99195a29\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: An estimation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291baea69810438c9204a5783d6f96a8\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: It might have been an estimation, as my colleague says, but if I recall correctly, the Government put it forward as a definite aim. Whether it was an aim or estimation, the Government has failed. Far from the Government moving New Zealand towards the goal of 90 percent renewables, the proportion has fallen from 72 percent in 1999 to 66 percent in 2007. That is a long way, after 9 years, from 90 percent. I did not have the opportunity to sit on the select committee considering this bill. I would like the Minister to take a call to explain why, with all the Government\u2019s trumpeting, hurrahing, and what have you over these last three terms, it has failed dismally in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s interventions have been contradictory. Renewable developments, like Project Aqua and the Dobson hydro project, were stopped by Government decisions. Thermal projects, like the new oil-powered Whirinaki power station, have been directly funded by a consumer levy, and the massive new 385-megawatt e3p combined-cycle gas turbine built by Genesis was, unusually, underwritten by the Government. Of the new generation built by this Government, 75 percent has been thermal. So the moratorium proposed here represents a radical shift in policy. How long is the moratorium for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd8b5d12c2d4b52893a1221441c7f3b\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226097fbfa3b5a448b8b6bf763e78ce437\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: That is an eternity, frankly, given the way that things are moving, particularly in an area where we want to take the lead. We certainly have a record of doing that, on a number of important things. It would seem that, on this issue, we might at least have waited to see what Australia does with its emissions trading scheme, but, no, this Government wants to push us out in front, with no proper structures at all being proposed. Am I right in saying that the Government proposed to put off the scheme for 2 years in order to design it properly? Maybe not. In any event, after 9 years the Government, fewer than 2 months before the end of its third term, is pushing it through. It is not being done under urgency\u2014although I am sure the Government would like to do that\u2014because the Greens, I understand, would not allow it to happen, even though they are supporting the bill. There are 785 amendments. That is nearly unconstitutional, quite frankly, I say to the Minister. He should hang his head in shame. [Interruption] I certainly was a Minister, but I was never as arrogant as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ENational Party members have a concern about security of supply. Many submitters from the industry, I understand, believe that the moratorium will put security of supply in jeopardy. We can see why that would be. If we put a moratorium on something, people do not know where they stand. Things tend to come to a bit of a standstill, the Government hums and ha\u2019s, and those who would make the investment do not know where they stand. The second concern is the effectiveness of the moratorium. It is a very blunt instrument, as most moratoriums are, and it does not seem to be part of any coherent policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7c8b78426fd4becb516a75dcdd19af5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7c8b78426fd4becb516a75dcdd19af5\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The member says that if we put a moratorium on generation, people do not know where they stand. Actually, the reason we do that is precisely so people do know where they stand and we have some clarity about the future. There are three issues that we need to deal with here, and I want to cover all of them briefly. Firstly, can we maintain security of supply while building only renewable power stations? Secondly, why will just putting a price on carbon not achieve that all by itself, without any further action? Thirdly, if we do want to do it, will this legislation achieve that purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI will start with the question of security. The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority and the Ministry for Economic Development modelled very carefully how far we could get with renewable energy before price and security started to be compromised. The clear end point was 90 percent. We could do 90 percent with very little effect on the electricity price, because there are a lot of low-cost renewables available, and we could do 90 percent without compromising security of supply. If we simply look at what is being built at the moment, we see that we have 4,000 megawatts of electricity capacity under construction, consented to and about to start, or in the consenting process. That is a huge amount of new capacity, and all of it is renewable. Large parts of it are geothermal, which are baseload and are more reliable than any of the other technologies, including gas, and a considerable part of it is wind, which is backed up by our very reliable old hydro. Security of supply, once the Cook Strait cable is fully operating again, is simply not an issue. Actually, to the extent that the Cook Strait cable compromises security at the moment, that is not a matter that we can fix by building thermal power stations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWhen we look at why we need this part at all, we have heard people say\u2014and I know that Treasury is also of this view\u2014that as long as there is a price on carbon we do not need any restriction. People will simply do what is cost-effective. Let us have a look at this. There are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars of opportunity in the New Zealand economy to reduce energy consumption at less cost than the cost of buying it. But it does not happen. If a price is all we needed to incentivise action, why is it that for the whole of my lifetime\u2014and still\u2014there have been huge opportunities for saving energy that cost nothing, but people still do not take them? In fact, it is well known in the international literature that a price on carbon is part of the equation, and the rest of it is what are called complementary measures, which in my view are the majority of the measures that we need. It is a mixture of information, regulation, codes, standards, and all the rest of it. Clearly, if we have an interest in building gas-fired power stations and we do not have a lot of expertise in geothermal deployment, and we happen also to be involved in drilling for gas, and there is a gas supply and gas consumption issue to resolve, then we are going to build gas-fired power stations, even if they are not the most economical thing to build. It might pay one\u2019s company personally if it has interests in gas, but it will not be the most economical thing for the country. That is the sort of reason why we need a clear policy direction that from now on, until we get to 90 percent, we want to build only renewable electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe real question, though, is whether Part 2 of this bill will achieve that. With that, I must say I have some problems. Part 2 states that we cannot connect a new baseload power station unless we meet one of this very long list of exemptions. I asked three different submitters at the select committee\u2014two of them were power station owners\u2014whether there is anything we could not build, under Part 2. They said: \u201CNo, that\u2019s not the issue. The issue is it\u2019s a nuisance to have to go and get consent to do it.\u201D Three different submitters admitted that the exemptions in Part 2 are so great that we can actually build anything we like. So the Green Party tried to get them tightened up a little bit. We did have some success, at least around defining what is baseload and what is a peaking plant. We now have, in the bill as reported back, issues around the amount that a plant would run, its efficiency, and its start-up time, which define a peaking plant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe section we could not make any progress with, and which is the out clause for Genesis, is new section 62G(1)(e), which says that if one is retiring some other fossil-fuelled plant then one can build a new one. Well, everybody knows that Huntly is a very old plant. Huntly is the biggest greenhouse gas emitter. Huntly will eventually be phased out, probably one unit at a time. It will probably be providing back-up or reserve capacity for quite a while but hardly running, and it will eventually be phased out all together. We have already built two gas-fired plants in this country on the promise that they would replace Huntly. The first one was the Taranaki combined-cycle power station, and everybody said it would improve greenhouse gas emissions because we would run efficient gas in Taranaki instead of coal at Huntly. Of course, we ran both. The next one was e3p on the same Huntly site. We were told that that would reduce emissions from the Huntly site because we would run the gas plant instead of the coal plant. What are we doing? We are running both\u2014and flat out too, I must say. So let us not pretend, if Genesis builds a 500 megawatt plant\u2014which would be the largest gas-fired plant in the country\u2014up on the Kaipara in Rodney, that it will be doing it to back up Huntly on coal. It will only back up Huntly on coal either when it is told to or when coal gets so expensive that we cannot afford to run it any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe section that says that as long as one is retiring some other plant, one can build a new one\u2014new section 62G(1)(e)\u2014will not take us to 90 percent renewable, because to get to 90 percent renewable we actually need to close down both Huntly and another existing gas-fired plant and not replace them, assuming the normal projections of growth and demand up to 2025. We can do it\u2014the renewables are there, the renewables are cost-effective, and the renewables are being built. But if we let people come in and build thermal plants in the meantime, they will crowd those renewables out of the market. If there is a great, big, ugly gas-fired plant just sitting there waiting to run, nobody will build wind power plants and nobody will build geothermal power plants. We need to intervene in the market from time to time to make sure we send it in a direction that is economic for the country\u2014secure for the country\u2014but not necessarily in the private financial interests of whoever wants to build power stations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party supports the renewable preference provisions. We are very sad that we were not able to tighten them up a great deal more than what is here now. We are sad that Genesis, when it came to the select committee, expressed an obvious intention to just go ahead and build the thing and run it anyway, and we hope that its shareholding Ministers will put the brakes on when it gets to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002211414974bddd4e01aabcb372ee89e559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211414974bddd4e01aabcb372ee89e559\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak to Part 2 of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, which includes the moratorium\u2014what is now being called a restriction. Last winter I urged many people to go out and get back-up energy systems because of a potential shortage of energy going to their households. I suggested they get gas back-up and lighting back-up, and make sure they were prepared. I thought it was hugely important that, particularly, our over-65s were ready for an energy shortage. We are concerned about a potential lack of energy for domestic users in this country\u2014not taking into account a lack of the energy required for business use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ELet us look at what is happening with the moratorium. The Government\u2019s climate change policies have failed the electricity sector. Far from the Government moving New Zealand towards the goal of 90 percent renewables, the proportion has fallen from 72 percent in 1999 to 66 percent in 2007. That is an incredible indictment on the current Government, and particularly on a Minister in the front row, Michael Cullen. The Government\u2019s interventions in the electricity industry have been contradictory. Oh, I am getting a little moue of the lips from him! Renewable developments like Project Aqua and the Dobson hydro project were stopped by Government decisions. The Dobson decision was an appalling decision on the part of the Government. That project was an absolutely viable concept, and it was well supported by all the community leaders and all of the community right across the board\u2014but, no, not by this particular Government. A golden opportunity was lost for the sake of a bit of scrubby, gorse-covered Department of Conservation estate that the Government, incredibly, felt was worth protecting. The Government made the decision to can a project that everybody wanted, because it thought it knew best. That is pretty typical of the current Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThermal projects like the new oil-powered Whirinaki power station have been directly funded by a consumer levy, and the massive new 385-megawatt e3p combined-cycle gas turbine built by Genesis was, unusually, underwritten by the Government. Of course, the current Minister of Finance, Dr Michael Cullen, thinks that is incredibly amusing. Of the new generation built by this Government, 75 percent has been thermal. So the moratorium proposed here actually represents a radical shift in policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s first concern is, of course, security of supply, and it was very much at risk over the last winter; hence the need to highlight to our over-65s the need for them to have back-up. I can tell members that I find quite astounding the number of over-65s at Grey Power meetings who tell me they had back-up systems and were prepared. That sent a signal that they do not have confidence in the current Government to provide for their energy needs, and feel they have to be prepared to provide their own energy. They took the initiative and they were resourceful. They had gas cookers and gas heaters, they stayed with relatives, and they had back-up lights so that they could see in the dark. They were well prepared. I was very, very impressed with our over-65s; they were not placing any confidence at all in the current Government to address their needs. When one sees the likes of this legislation with its moratorium on non-renewable energy resources, one can understand why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe distinction in the bill between new power stations being either baseload or peak-load is nonsensical. Ironically, New Zealand\u2019s biggest greenhouse gas emitter, the Huntly power station, was built as a peak-load station in 1987, and, technically, another could be built under the exemptions in this bill. National sees no place in New Zealand for any new coal-fired generation until such time as carbon sequestration technology becomes viable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe smart way to provide an incentive for renewable energy over thermal generation is through the price signal of an emissions trading scheme. That is why we have consistently advocated that electricity be the first sector to be introduced to an emissions trading scheme. That would provide a signal every day to the electricity sector to favour renewables over thermal energy\u2014and not just when building. It would avoid the artificial distinctions between peak-load and baseload stations. The emissions trading scheme would encourage substitution for more efficient thermal generation, where possible, and the earlier retirement of old, dirty technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that renewables generator Meridian Energy and the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment also rejected the moratorium. Perhaps the Minister should take note. National supports the target of 90 percent renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226421fddf59aa4777abaffc7317b197ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226421fddf59aa4777abaffc7317b197ca\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002291d78b5db0fe43c09e82c127598dc2ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291d78b5db0fe43c09e82c127598dc2ee\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022935b8ee9d66d453f970c0aee8ff93cc1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: This\u2019ll be good!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233eb9465cbcc406dbdff21071ac52b4a\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will be good. I would like to comment on Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 comments about the exemptions that are able to be made by the Minister of Energy. The fact is that this legislation, which was drafted by the Minister\u2014at least, he is responsible for it\u2014is incomprehensible. I refer members to new section 62G(1)(b) and (c) in new Part 6A, which is in clause 67: \u201C(b) the specified generation plant, or the increased capacity referred to in section 62C(4), will be necessary for the purpose of mitigating the effects of an emergency (whether present or future)\u037E or c) the specified generation plant will be necessary for the purpose of forming\u201D. What does that mean, I ask the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI now refer the Minister to new section 62G(1)(i): \u201Cin respect of which fossil fuels will provide less than a prescribed proportion of the total fuel energy input for the generator or generators constituting the plant in any\u201D. This stuff is nonsensical. I do not believe that the Minister understands what that subparagraph means, or paragraph (e) below it, or new subsections (1A), (1B), and (2) below that. This is a long way from comprehensible plain language, which should apply to any legislation being passed in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI suggest to the Minister that far from the Government moving New Zealand towards the goal of 90 percent renewables, the proportion has actually fallen from 72 percent in 1999 to 66 percent in 2007. The Government\u2019s interventions in the electricity industry have surely, I say to the Minister, been contradictory. Renewable energy developments like Project Aqua and the Dobson hydro project were stopped by Government decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224611658efbe249f4ae0c6f81c7dbdf2b\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Sandra\u2019s just squawked that out already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a4eadeb2f1c432cb142d5ba7d9b1533\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: That is dead right\u2014she has\u2014and I am repeating it. I am asking the member to understand that we are very, very unhappy about the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EOf the new energy generation being built by this Government, 75 percent has been thermal. So the Government is suggesting here, theoretically, a radical change in policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe distinction in this bill between new power stations being either baseload or peak-load is nonsensical. Ironically, New Zealand\u2019s biggest greenhouse gas emitter, the Huntly power station, was built as a peak-load station, as my colleagues have pointed out, and it was built in 1987. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a9496e75194e66abb51be54d6df718\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Seven of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ebe63f5919e4432a4e029684c3ee611\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: The member has pointed out that we have another six of them, and the Government could build another one without any difficulty at all. The smart way to provide an incentive-based system for renewable energy over thermal generation is through the price signal of an emissions trading scheme. That is why National members have consistently advocated that the electricity sector should be the first sector to be introduced to an emissions trading scheme\u2014not our farmers in the Wairarapa, not our foresters in the Wairarapa, and not our fishing people in the Wairarapa. The point of putting the electricity sector into an emissions trading scheme straight up is that it would provide a price signal to consumers and to the industry every day, every minute of the day. That would provide an incentive against further thermal electricity production, and would avoid the distinction between baseload stations and peak-load stations. The emissions trading scheme will encourage substitution for the more efficient thermal generation, and earlier retirement of old, dirty technology. I think it is noteworthy that renewable generator Meridian Energy and the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment have rejected the Government\u2019s concept of a moratorium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe in the National Party support the 90 percent renewable energy target. We have confidence that the pricing signal of the emissions trading scheme, as well as our proposed reforms of the Resource Management Act, will give impetus to new renewable energy generation, without any arbitrary or inefficient moratorium as proposed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI think new section 62F, which enables the Minister to grant exemptions to this policy, is basically a down payment on future corruption, and I do not want to see it. I think a lot of work needs to be done on this legislation to turn it from gobbledegook into plain language so that ordinary people can understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002285c6720bc22248b4b1b3d3fe88730110\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285c6720bc22248b4b1b3d3fe88730110\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc1a048460014f5f8347031931ae50dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc1a048460014f5f8347031931ae50dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The Opposition has shown considerable tolerance. The Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill is the most important bill of the term of this Parliament. Today we have had over 785 amendments tabled by the Government\u2014785 amendments\u2014and it seems extraordinary to me that the Government is attempting closure motions on such a critical bill in the term of this Parliament. I ask you, in considering whether to allow this debate to continue, to consider both the importance of this bill and the fact that only this morning we received the amendments the Government has proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b287b4a4c93b48c69e3f894eefd686ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b287b4a4c93b48c69e3f894eefd686ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Yet again we see the National Party misusing the point of order process. This is a non-debatable motion. You and you alone, Mr Chairperson, make the decision, and this side of the Chamber will be happy to abide by it whatever it may be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022726b077f0d7244279c71ccb6b1f65bb1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that. I myself could not quite see the connection with the quality of tolerance. But I will call one senior member, Dr Paul Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002240207bb19d4e4d02b17521f310343cb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240207bb19d4e4d02b17521f310343cb3\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me considerable concern to speak on new Part 6A, inserted by clause 67, of the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, which has clearly been amended from its title of \u201CLimitation on new fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generating capacity\u201D to \u201CRestriction on new fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generating capacity\u201D. As my colleague the Hon Nick Smith pointed out just this afternoon in a motion to the House, it would have been sensible and responsible of this Government to send this bill back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee to undergo in-depth analysis and then a final return to Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI spoke on the first reading of this bill last year. I remember that it was the time prior to the Beijing Olympics. I totally remember something on the TV showing the spectre of Beijing immersed in smog, fog, and fossil fuel - generated particles, causing the workers on the \u201CBird\u2019s Nest\u201D stadium to have to wear breathing apparatus, and to be hardly able to go about their ordinary business. It was a spectre that demonstrated just how serious the whole issue of climate change and the response to it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt was with considerable hope that the National Party supported in its first reading the legislation we have before us, but it was with huge concern that I learnt that 1,000 amendments were put before the select committee by the Government. That demonstrates just how wrong the Government had it to start with. This afternoon, when the Government presented another 750 amendments, it showed how pathetically badly it has managed the process of this bill so far. How can it expect anyone in this Parliament to treat it, or this very important legislation, seriously when it treats the parliamentary process so lightly, recklessly, and irresponsibly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENew Part 6A refers to fossil-fuelled thermal electricity generating capacity. In my electorate of Port Waikato, which I am proud to represent, is the New Zealand Steel mill. It is directly responsible for about 1,200 jobs in the area, at an average of $90,000 each; and around New Zealand about 5,000 to 6,000 jobs are highly dependent on that steel mill. The thing about it is that it is world best practice, and in terms of its co-generation capacity it is also world best practice. Yet here we have a Labour Government trying to put every hurdle in the book in the way of the efficient, effective continuation of one of the best steel mills in the world\u2014a steel mill where there is commitment to investing a further $2 billion over the next 10 years, including into a vanadium and titanium extraction component that will be very helpful for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe look at what is going on around the rest of the world. For instance, in Europe there is an exemption for steel mills. But this Labour Government\u2019s hurried and pathetically poorly processed legislation may well mean that key strategic infrastructure for New Zealand, like our steel mill, will be forced to go offshore. What will that mean to emissions, greenhouse gases, on the world scene? It will only mean that they will go to places like China and India, where they will be increased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0695662bc7f496fbe83709a42b08371\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0695662bc7f496fbe83709a42b08371\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d0e0c2e54c947288fc93ee1b6e812ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c8c605812a7427d853866fa1a1ca908\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed69d4315aa74ac488e168e9feceb631\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000615\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 232 in the name of the Hon David Parker be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229f90e4c43e7a4691a31128eeec7431b7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000616\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 237 in the name of Rodney Hide be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002264b086d8b5104e9ca1aa32c796e010f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000617\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the schedule as amended be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bb7e1b3f8a24f45ae6ff6eb561aa301\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022015b750bc90846da96945ee52fb5b8e4\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000619\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000620\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a20089609b44836b562be5a714fae23\u0022\u003EMember Vacancy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b454987a3ce4bf180f9c765a0bbac4a\u0022\u003ERakaia Electoral District\u2014Brian Connell\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022499a5237a1e54487862a460950f01536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022499a5237a1e54487862a460950f01536\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That, pursuant to section 131(a) of the Electoral Act 1993, a vacancy in the Rakaia Electoral District having arisen in the period of 6 months prior to the date of the expiration of this Parliament, no writ be issued for the election of a member of Parliament for that electoral district to supply the vacancy occasioned by the resignation of Brian David Connell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244c31ebfb8e64f77931c5bcfebbaeb9d\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228457767b1ef84ac491d61f0101ff0109\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224f0be764c7634df8905a69515c7c99ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f0be764c7634df8905a69515c7c99ff\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through their remaining stages of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3); the first reading of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4); the second reading of the Public Transport Management Bill; the passing through their remaining stages of the Biofuel Bill, the Commerce Amendment Bill, the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill; the Committee stage of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill; the passing through their remaining stages of the Real Estate Agents Bill, the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill, the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill, the Family Courts Matters Bill, the Walking Access Bill; the first reading of the Cultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill; and the passing through their remaining stages of the Policing Bill, and any bills into which those bills may be divided. The motion is moved so that a range of legislation can be passed before the House has to rise before the election. That, I think, concludes the reasons I need to give.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227a4b9bf34ac14221bb02ad6713bbef0d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b924071a1ad24f079aaa9be6debf43d5\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002252547711d52d44ae83a8ceebb19ce4e5\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022728492b1b75a4ad7ba406c05459f1a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022728492b1b75a4ad7ba406c05459f1a95\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill that it have the power to consider and, if it thinks fit, adopt the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c59bb4809de419db47bac985f0b6727\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee60e93e9a0149bdaf6b7e61cbb635a4\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary Provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022630ab54b10784bbcafec82bb462450ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022630ab54b10784bbcafec82bb462450ab\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in relation to Part 1 of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. The purpose of this bill was fairly straightforward. It provided firstly for, roughly, the codification of the rules relating to meal and rest breaks, which most thought were already enshrined in law. Secondly, it provided for employers to provide breastfeeding breaks and facilities where it is reasonable and practicable. So we have to ask the Minister why, at the eleventh hour, we have an amendment, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229, relating to KiwiSaver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhat has KiwiSaver to do with infant feeding, meal breaks, and rest breaks? This is a disgrace. It is a total abuse of process. There has been no notice of this amendment, there has been no scrutiny of this amendment, and there has been no consultation on this amendment. The Minister is fully aware that proposed changes to KiwiSaver have raised concerns amongst many businesses, such as Business New Zealand, the Employers and Manufacturers Association, and many, many others. Yet the Minister arrogantly\u2014and I can only say \u201Carrogantly\u201D\u2014persists in pushing through an amendment that, at the very least, should be subject to consultation and select committee scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis is a disgrace. It is a sad, sad day for democracy in New Zealand. But we have had this situation before, have we not? We had it with the Electoral Finance Bill, we have had it with the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, and now we are having it with, believe it or not, the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill so that this Minister can sneakily include an amendment relating to KiwiSaver. This is reckless lawmaking at its worst. This is irresponsible lawmaking at its worst. This is stripping away any safeguards whatsoever from the legislative process, and it is an utter disgrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Minister may care to take notice of the concerns expressed by Professor Waldron of the New York University school of law. He was particularly scathing about our lawmaking process. He was particularly outraged by the evolution of procedures for fast-tracking legislation, which he described as disgraceful by world standards. An article in the New Zealand Lawyer states that at the moment New Zealand\u2019s current legislative process is reckless. In a deserted Chamber, bills are rushed through under urgency, and members are subservient to the executive. There are constant closure motions, and there is no quorum, no second Chamber, and no checks and balances. The professor asks how we can really take seriously the suggestion that a duty of care is properly being exercised with regard to legislation. That is what the professor said. He said that the effectiveness of the select committee process is undermined by the constant use of Supplementary Order Papers that bring provisions into a bill after the select committee deliberations, and that is exactly what we have with the amendments to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e1ea59162749cc877a723fd407b41f\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think the member might have just picked the point of order I am going to raise. She is now 3 minutes into her speech, and she is yet to address the substance of Part 1, as opposed to the general processes around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe796592c2f4f08953c2477d76de6a1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b6045342084ef0a6bf096b915ee64f\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I tell the member that I am talking about the purpose of the bill, which has been changed at the last minute by a sneaky little Supplementary Order Paper, and that is very relevant to the debate on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5001e8c09045b4bdc85250eb9753e6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that, but it did not add to the point of order, at all. I ask you to continue on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f531975f1d0400c9956ae87316aa3e7\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what is the relevance, the purpose, of the bill? It should have been to require facilities and breaks to be provided, as far as reasonable and practicable in the circumstances, for employees who wish to breastfeed in the workplace or during work periods. The purpose should have been to require employees to be provided with rest breaks and meal breaks. The bill should not have been amended with the purpose of making it a ground for a personal grievance for an employee\u2019s employment to be adversely affected because he or she is a member of a KiwiSaver scheme or a complying superannuation fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThat amendment is a disgrace. It is an abuse of the process. It is, as Professor Waldron said, reckless. He said that the party in power abuses the process to get its measures rushed through quickly and without political embarrassment, and that what is required is people who will stand up for the integrity of the process. This amendment is a typical example of that abuse of process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c3cb1a838a4db182621d7e2670f1b1\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Now for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229122765f13ad4da8adbf0da70e9c2402\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Fairbrother that I have been talking about the bill, and about the abuse of process that is so often displayed by this arrogant Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis Government has no concern whatsoever for consultation, no concern whatsoever for select committee scrutiny, and no concern that perhaps some people out there trying to make a living might like to present a submission on the amendment to this bill. This Government has no concern whatsoever for ordinary New Zealanders who are trying to make a dollar working\u2014just a sneaky little amendment as a Supplementary Order Paper, at the last minute, that tries to link KiwiSaver to meal breaks. Perhaps the Minister can tell us the relevance of KiwiSaver to meal breaks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00224f6a2dac9f354790a6fe7c4a8603021d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f6a2dac9f354790a6fe7c4a8603021d\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E This Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill is important legislation because, as the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee noted, it was all about amending the Employment Relations Act in a very specific and defined way. That very specific and defined way was to require employers to provide employees with meal and rest breaks, and with appropriate facilities and breaks for those who wished to breastfeed or to express breast milk. I must say that when I first saw the bill I saw that it would support Government policy by protecting and promoting breastfeeding. It was also planned that the provisions regarding breastfeeding would be supported by a code of employment practice. Who could argue against that? So it was that the bill saw speedy passage through the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, having been introduced as recently as 2 April 2008. It had a first reading only 7 days later, after which it was sent off to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe bill is a very short amendment bill, which in fact contains just two parts. But of course, as others have said, and properly said, we are seeing a moment, sadly, in the life of this Labour-led Government of substantive abuse of process, and on some basis that is not clear to members on this side of the Chamber, we are seeing that the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill is to be hugely expanded in scope to deal with some quite subtle issues around KiwiSaver. I have listened to the Hon Trevor Mallard castigate Kate Wilkinson, a lawyer of substantial history, knowledge, and learning, on something that in constitutional law terms is incredibly offensive\u2014that is, the weaving into legislation of a highly specific character, significant and substantive changes to the KiwiSaver regime that are singularly inappropriate. I am now directly addressing Supplementary Order Paper 229, which is directly related to the substantive bill, and I ask when the Government conceived this great plan. When did it alert the Opposition to its plan to broaden the scope of the legislation in the way I have just described? Well, it was as recently as Tuesday, 2 September 2008\u2014as recently as today. But that cannot be a source of satisfaction for a Government, and that cannot be a source of pride for a Government; it should be a source of disgrace and shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhat is going on here? What is going on here in this Supplementary Order Paper, referenced to the particular part of the bill we are now dealing with? Well, the amendments made by the Supplementary Order Paper relating to the KiwiSaver scheme and complying superannuation funds are to come into force on the day after the date on which the bill receives the Royal assent. And we are now seeing new provisions grafted on to this bill to add a further purpose, which is to make it a ground for a personal grievance for an employee\u2019s employment to be adversely affected because he or she is a member of the KiwiSaver scheme or a complying superannuation fund. People might wonder how this is properly related to the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. The short position is that it is not. I hope that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, will explain, if he can, in a way that is measured and reasonable and constitutionally based, how appropriate it is\u2014for it scarcely is\u2014for this particular event to confront us on what is a day of shame for this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f89cedf05a489ab8843869fee06194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f89cedf05a489ab8843869fee06194\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E In starting my speech I note that I found my colleague Dr Worth\u2019s speech very apposite to the occasion. I said, by way of interjection a bit earlier, that the Government was tired and arrogant, and the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, denied that. I assume he denied it because of the conjunction of the terms I used: that it is both tired and arrogant. Perhaps he thought that if we described the Government as being tired and out of ideas, then that might be legitimate, or, conversely, if we simply described it as being arrogant and out of touch, then that might also be appropriate. But to tie the two terms together was seen by the Minister as being perhaps a little unreasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere is a reason why I have started on that point. It is that we see an abuse of procedure, whereby a fundamentally new part of the bill has been inserted today. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, knows full well that his views on the KiwiSaver issues around employment have generated a great deal of controversy. The Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc. has taken particular issue with the Minister on that very point. The reason it has done so is that the Government is once again cutting across the freedom of employers to be able to negotiate fairly and reasonably with employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1695cdabf454553ba5cbcea4d652791\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You mean to cut wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7ae8cd97a0486fbf0fc2d726567a40\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says that, and it is a typical response, is it not? He displays no understanding of the concept of total remuneration whatsoever by that interjection. Why can employees not choose either to have more cash in their pockets or to join KiwiSaver? People could have that reasonable choice. What is wrong with that? I would ask the Minister what is wrong with people exercising choices around their remuneration. That is why the Minister of Labour is in so much trouble on this issue. It is just redolent of this Government to take a controlling approach to things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI just say to the Minister that I was phoned today about political correctness. I said the single feature about political correctness\u2014and it followed Sir Brian Lochore\u2019s speech, actually\u2014that really upsets New Zealanders is the way that the Government thinks it knows best. In relation to any social or economic issue, it thinks the proper approach is to legislate in order to tell people how to think. The environmentally friendly light bulbs are a case in point; this bill is another case in point. Here the Government is basically saying to employers and employees that only one approach is possible. We can forget about freedom of contract. We can forget about people saying that they want cash rather than KiwiSaver contributions\u2014they do not have that choice. That is the truth of the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the Committee are voting against the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 229 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard. The Minister knows full well that we are supporting the bill as a whole, and there are very good reasons for that. We understand that in appropriate circumstances employees need legislation in this area. Some of us are aware that there has been a little abuse in this area in some sectors, so we think it is reasonable for there to be some legislation on this matter. If the Government had kept the legislation to that issue only, then we would have no problem with it. The fact that the bill was introduced into\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d6a22a2b5094f99b8eccced985b6b38\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218047cd325fb4447b3c754a38dd5037a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour junior whip says \u201CYeah, right!\u201D. I need to remind her that National is actually voting for the legislation, so her Tui ad reference hardly makes any sense. Members know what people say about \u201CYeah, right!\u201D: it means the answer is actually no. I say to the junior whip that in this instance the answer is actually yes, because we are voting for the legislation. But we are voting against this particular Supplementary Order paper in order to express our concerns about the way that the Government thinks there is only one solution to the issues of KiwiSaver and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would say that will be one of the fundamental tests of this Government. One of the fundamental reasons, I suggest, that the public will generally be voting against this Government is the way it has consistently said there is only way: the Government\u2019s way. This Government\u2019s pattern of behaviour is that it says it is either its way or the highway. I say to the Government that I suspect New Zealanders will say in a few weeks\u2019 time: \u201CFrankly, it is the highway. Out with you!\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef0aab8cb6a14842a17f45b3ba66a6cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef0aab8cb6a14842a17f45b3ba66a6cf\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is almost unbelievable when one comes across this Supplementary Order Paper, apposite to Part 1 of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill, and finds insinuated in it this outrageous bit where the Labour Government tries to trivialise the importance of breastfeeding by bringing in its KiwiSaver scheme in terms of a ground for a personal grievance. It is almost unbelievable that it would treat in that way something as important and as serious as breastfeeding, which in New Zealand, sadly, is way below average levels and needs encouragement, which is why the National Party has agreed to support the substance of this bill. But certainly National is astounded and appalled at this Labour Government when it abuses the parliamentary process in such an awful way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EMy excellent colleague Kate Wilkinson was absolutely right when she quoted Professor Jeremy Waldron of the New York University school of law who commented in the New Zealand Lawyer just how \u201Cterribly irresponsible\u201D New Zealanders\u2019 attitude is towards the parliamentary institution, which has been the trend of late under this Labour Government. In fact, Waldron said he was particularly outraged by the evolution of procedures for fast tracking legislation, and my word, have we ever seen a display of that this afternoon, when the most important legislation that has come through Parliament in the last 9 years has been rammed through in 4 hours, with its 750 new amendments, whereas it should have been given appropriate process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EComing back to this bill, the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill, I say that we once again see the Labour Government abusing parliamentary process in the most awful way. It is inconceivable to think that such a bill dealing with infant feeding could suddenly have insinuated in its purpose this extra amendment to make it a ground for a personal grievance for an employee\u2019s employment to be adversely affected because he or she is a member of a KiwiSaver scheme or of a complying superannuation fund. I am quite appalled that the Labour Government would trivialise something so important. As my learned lawyer colleagues have said, it is totally inappropriate in this legislation for the Labour Government to have suddenly, without any consultation with anyone else, decided to bring this irresponsible amendment into the bill. What is more, Professor Waldron made this point: \u201CIn New Zealand legislative proceedings are utterly dominated by the executive.\u201D And that is the case of this Labour Government. With something like 26 ministerial positions, it is almost inevitable that one way or another one of those Ministers will abuse his or her power, and this is a classic example. One would have hoped that for something as important as breastfeeding, the Government would at least have ensured that it fully consulted all the parties that had agreed to support this legislation. Instead, in a sneaky way\u2014in a very, very sneaky way, typical of the dying days of this Labour Government\u2014it has instead decided to insinuate this absolutely inappropriate amendment into otherwise very important legislation for the women of New Zealand. I would think that the women of New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b881c808ab2f4bbd85821a269e1dbd38\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What about the babies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022618f00d5c47b4741b2ee9d3b4cacc3a8\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: And babies\u2014absolutely. I would think that the women and babies of New Zealand would feel totally trivialised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe7376eb5c542ef95d36491f2b19d61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe7376eb5c542ef95d36491f2b19d61\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity to speak to Part 1 of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. Well, well, is it not interesting to see the real agenda of National Party members coming out loud at this time in the parliamentary cycle? They have been pretending to support this legislation for such a long time; it has always been my estimation that that was a very surface pretence at supporting the legislation, and now they think they have found the perfect excuse to withdraw their support. Dr Mapp said before that they will continue to support, and vote for, the legislation. Well, I look forward to that, because I tell Dr Mapp that the third reading of this bill is not very far away, and I look forward to his holding on to his word and voting for the legislation at its third reading. But somehow I doubt that that will happen, because I think the real agenda of the National Party will come out during the third reading of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI am very pleased, as one of the members of Parliament who helped to draft this bill and actually had part of this legislation as my member\u2019s bill, to see it being dealt with under urgency, because these are urgent matters. I am also very pleased to see that the purpose of the bill will be extended by a Supplementary Order Paper to stop employers making it grounds for a personal grievance where employers try to disadvantage employees who have chosen to save for their retirement. That is what we are trying to do in this country. KiwiSaver has made a significant difference to the savings culture in this country. We have moved people quite some distance from a credit card culture where people have been spending money that they actually do not have to a savings culture, saving for their retirement. Is that not a great thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a2eafb2da1a4b6e969a36f31f85773b\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: They have lost money on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285acb70f5e4d496e89158c91039166b9\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: I tell David Bennett to listen to the numbers; 700,000 New Zealanders are now saving for their retirement, thanks to the foresight of this great Labour Government, and Dr Michael Cullen in particular. We are ensuring that we safeguard those 700,000 New Zealanders so that they do not get ripped off by their employers, and also so that their employers do not pocket taxpayer money, because, in fact, that is what has been happening. Employers have had tax credits that fund the 1 percent employer contribution, and where they take that 1 percent off the wages of those workers they are putting the taxpayer contribution to KiwiSaver literally in their back pocket. That is not acceptable. It is certainly not acceptable to a Labour-led Government. It might be acceptable to National, and we have not heard one speaker from National saying what his or her actual position is on that stance taken by employers over KiwiSaver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWhat has National got to say about good, decent, working New Zealanders making the commitment to save for their retirement and having their employers disadvantage them by cutting their wages? What is the National Party\u2019s position on that? It is very clear what the Labour-led Government\u2019s position is on that. It is that we will not tolerate it; and we will not tolerate it, by moving this amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809028afa6a5040b348e69e87f5deea05b9ad000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022324a338fe3c24626ac1de8a5d3b6ba7c\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a38484cf5ed44dfa8b1ada55aaf81d1\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 3 September 2008)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209904f1ca873480ba0d731ec913b88a5\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ea60f1ad9764c37aa0307de1ccbc1c1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022465cb0a052c143d290e8c9a230707022\u0022\u003EPart 1  Commentary (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00223383bd5d2b0b44b986b0e783d22924aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223383bd5d2b0b44b986b0e783d22924aa\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Last night when we were debating Part 1 of this bill, the National Party was asking what these issues had in common. I just want to spell it out, because this debate is about the purpose of this bill. National members asked what having meal breaks and rest periods, having the right to breastfeed at work, and having the right to take a personal grievance against one\u2019s employer if he or she tries to disadvantage one for joining KiwiSaver, have in common. Well, I will tell National members what those things have in common: it is all about fairness at work. It is all about having fairness at work, and it is all about ensuring that when there are mean-spirited employers who will deny employees their proper meal breaks, or will try to disadvantage them because they dare to save for their future or dare to save for their retirement, all these things are about fairness at work. The Labour-led Government will not stand by a minute longer to allow that unfairness to continue in the workplace, and that is what it is about. So the National Party needs to understand that workers do have rights at work, that it is about fairness, and that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223922fc9e77a04d26aa280a836f9da4fe\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Send it back to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a315cdcbfb4b36aa7a76d96daca388\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member says to send it back to the select committee. There was a very full select committee process over KiwiSaver. The employers understood the rules\u2014they knew exactly what was being asked for there. And the National Party voted against KiwiSaver as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022882b783d219e4df6aa3a2993d17e7cf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022882b783d219e4df6aa3a2993d17e7cf0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Dr Wayne Mapp, I will ask whether we could have less barrage. Both sides know well, I say to Miss Bennett\u2014less barrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00229b27fa57b772423784c006c42d0b4e5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b27fa57b772423784c006c42d0b4e5c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I should correct an impression that you gave\u2014that this is a hard-working Government that would work through to midnight. In fact, Government members were so lazy that they actually lifted the Committee at 10 o\u2019clock\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29299b44e5b41819762dae4ffed0014\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, and you know very well that we were not in urgency and that we finished at 10 o\u2019clock as per normal, and as per the rules of the House. No game-playing. On you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d63e30911934830a61c8a844f5955dc\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: We are debating, as is quite plain, not just the purpose provision but also this Supplementary Order Paper. I know that the Government thinks it has done a good thing for workers, but in fact it totally misunderstands the situation. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, has been in continuous conflict with the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc.\u2014not that it is a surprising situation for this particular Minister to be in continuous conflict with whomever he is talking to\u2014and Government members have always misunderstood the point that the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) was making. It is surely an issue of choice whether someone joins the KiwiSaver programme, and the whole point of the Employers and Manufacturers Association\u2019s concern was that it is the total remuneration that ought to be looked at. People should be able to say: \u201CWell, I\u2019m going to be in KiwiSaver, and I will get my remuneration through that.\u201D, or \u201CI\u2019m not in KiwiSaver, and I don\u2019t want to be disadvantaged against those people who are in KiwiSaver.\u201D So, in that instance, some people will simply want to have the cash in hand. That is particularly true of lower-paid workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ECertainly, there are a significant number of workers in KiwiSaver\u2014I understand that\u2014but I would suggest to members that the ratio of lower-income workers is not nearly as high as middle-income workers. The truth is that if one has more money it is usually easier to save, and those are the groups that are choosing to join KiwiSaver. Actually, I might add that the 700,000 includes a very large number of children who were joined up by their parents, who are there to get the $1,000 without having to make any further contributions. Often the Government tries to pretend that that figure of 700,000 represents people who are in the workforce. Well, that is actually not the case anyway\u2014many of them are children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI suggest to the member who spoke before, Sue Moroney, that, in fact, lower-paid people are not joining KiwiSaver at nearly the same frequency as middle and higher income earners. So that is why the Employers and Manufacturers Association\u2019s view on KiwiSaver is the correct view, because it is all about people making choices. For lower-income people, that is a particularly important choice they need to be able to make, for many of them actually need the cash in their pockets\u2014not put into a savings scheme. Paying the petrol bills, paying the food bills, and paying the interest or rent is rather more significant than saving for the future. Indeed, many of those people will simply see New Zealand superannuation, supported by the superannuation scheme, as probably their protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want also to correct another misapprehension that the Government is labouring under. Sue Moroney explicitly said she did not expect National to support this bill at its third reading. I want to make it very clear to the Government, and, more important, to New Zealanders, that we are supporting the bill its at third reading\u2014that is not news. Whilst we are opposed to the insertion of the Supplementary Order Paper put in this way, we do not see that as such a large issue that would then cancel our vote altogether for the broader principle around fairness in the workplace in relation to meal breaks, and mothers who wish to breastfeed at work. We do understand the importance of those claims, and therefore wish to support the bill. That is indeed why the bill has gone through the parliamentary process relatively quickly. It was introduced only earlier this year, and it is now going right through into law at this point in time. And that does actually represent a level of consensus. I know it pains the Government to find out that we are supporting it. I guess the Government would prefer us to vote against it, but, in fact, we are supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00225f837e60dab14fbbbe985eb94472c63d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f837e60dab14fbbbe985eb94472c63d\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I recall the way this Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill was introduced to the public once it had been decided on. I was actually down at Blackball on the West Coast, and indeed, Madam Chair, you may have been there yourself at the time. You too will possibly remember the occasion of the 90th anniversary celebration of Paddy Webb and others\u2019 activity in obtaining half-an-hour\u2019s crib time for coalminers. This was an interesting occasion because there were historians down there who painted an interesting picture of the whole sequence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ELet us address Part 1 of the bill. It refers largely to breastfeeding opportunities for mothers and to rest breaks. It is a perfectly sensible bill and one that National is supporting. It was introduced, as I say, at Blackball. Maryan Street introduced it to the assembled gathering that was down there to note the 1908 strike, which led, eventually, to the crib break of half-an-hour. There were quite a few interesting aspects of that. There were some historians there, and there was also a High Court judge there, who corrected some of the myths and the legends that have crept into the memory of the litigation. An interesting point is that there had always been a half-hour crib break, which was reduced to 15 minutes at the request of the miners so they could get out of the mine a little earlier. So it was not quite as plain as it first looked. I have to say that this bill is not quite as plain as it first appeared, because here we go again. An innocent and useful little bill has been treated as a sort of miniature Trojan horse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe bill has been loaded, in the words of my colleague Kate Wilkinson, with a \u201Csneaky little Supplementary Order Paper\u201D, as if by sleight of hand to include an amendment to cover disadvantages to employees signed up to KiwiSaver as grounds for personal grievance. I wonder whether this is really in the scope of the bill. I do not remember it being discussed. It certainly was not mentioned by Maryan Street down in the workingmen\u2019s club in Blackball. She said in her splendid manner that she had received advice from the Hon Trevor Mallard that we had these new advantages for working people\u2014breastfeeding breaks, meal breaks, and rest breaks. She did not say: \u201COh, and by the way, there\u2019s going to be another little addition that will refer to personal grievance associated with KiwiSaver.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EHow long has this been part of an intended but undisclosed agenda? I do not say it is a secret agenda because it is out in the open now, but there was certainly very little advice when this bill was put forward that this provision around KiwiSaver would be part of it. I have to wonder, as a novice in the House, what other Supplementary Order Papers disguised as something else we will see slipped into bills as part of an intended but undisclosed agenda during this period of urgency. I am astonished that this is the way it is done. Is this really the ethical standard that Labour is now showing towards the end of this term? Is this Mr Mallard\u2019s ethical standard suddenly revealed? What else will be rushed in during urgency? Ah, the Minister smiles! That indicates to me\u2014being a trader and a bit of a negotiator\u2014that what we have seen is just the start. Are we going to hear, perhaps, something about the situation of Timberlands down on the West Coast, where West Coast millers and West Coast communities are calling for a response from Mr Mallard and other shareholding Ministers? There seems to be silence on the issue. Those on the West Coast seem to think they have not been treated fairly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d8979cc7f574c4a91ea408d3169ee73\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill, sir, the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cb902c9486646a39482f90dcc7201c9\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. Coming back to the bill, I say that this again is a situation where something has been promised, something has been proposed, something has been discussed, and now it is going to be changed. The emphasis has changed completely, away from the original intention of the bill. People are beginning to feel \u201CWe was robbed, we\u2019ve been cheated.\u201D I think Paddy Webb, whom I have respect for, would have been ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00220255e91a468548d2905b8b335446a36a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220255e91a468548d2905b8b335446a36a\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek a ruling as to the relevance of the amendment to the initial question, pursuant to Standing Order 119. I seek a ruling as to the relevance of KiwiSaver to the issue of meal breaks, as it is outside the Standing Orders and, therefore, out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9829f1367dc48c58bbd7d7c2fa912e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9829f1367dc48c58bbd7d7c2fa912e0\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The member is absolutely right and that is why the House, before it went into Committee, unanimously passed a motion to bring the amendment within the scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae19d7decd454e9290808f59e7706048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae19d7decd454e9290808f59e7706048\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: That is actually correct, Ms Wilkinson. There was a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d59755048e90436684da76546c2da3fe\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014motion in the name of Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00225e78a7758d964eae8d89f66941b53102\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e78a7758d964eae8d89f66941b53102\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. A motion\u2014and I have in front of me now\u2014was moved at the beginning. It said: \u201CI move that it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House that it have the power to consider and, if it thinks fit, adopt the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229.\u201D That was passed by the House, and therefore it has been agreed by the House that Supplementary Order Paper 229 is under consideration as part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00228db713b6cebd4200afb8c8865f83b098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228db713b6cebd4200afb8c8865f83b098\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222025199e09644956954b692930156102\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1ef68edd2b4b96a5bf332624999e06\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I want to clarify when, specifically, that was moved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29caf0541344935a7f2e413276879e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29caf0541344935a7f2e413276879e7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It was moved immediately after the urgency motion; as soon as this bill was called and before we went into Committee. The member\u2019s party supported it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00223ecad1afcfa94ecda34013c936e68be0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ecad1afcfa94ecda34013c936e68be0\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just to help me with the technicalities, does that mean, then, that without that clause this particular part would not have been within the scope of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022f83a20e8e824481381bbce2dac31573e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f83a20e8e824481381bbce2dac31573e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me take the member through it very slowly. The House is master of its own destiny. In this case, a motion was put to the House, while the Speaker was in the chair, which said we should consider this Supplementary Order Paper 229 in conjunction with the bill. The House agreed to that. That is done. Otherwise, it may not have been\u2014but the House agreed to that. I will take no further points on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002265849aac06b34515bff3551a53ec7726\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265849aac06b34515bff3551a53ec7726\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E We have just seen a prime example of what the Labour Government has been doing in the last couple of weeks. It has been doing sneaky little tricks to pass through things that it knows it cannot pass through under the conscience of the public gaze.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc7d84dca414883b5d34a3a8feeef8d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The member is now referring to a ruling that you have given and to a motion that has been agreed to by the House, as was made absolutely clear. This was not sneaky; this was something that was agreed to unanimously. The member\u2019s whips voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489a39062b674c3987cfc3105df12c47\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6cd7f1b0c14ef293c4eb38cfd265ba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: You are not speaking to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3363eb7d3c4c53af331a0a03f28a36\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a95f9837b84d85bd154092af69dc6a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I will rule on the point of order. Can we just settle down on the issue. Members may make points of order about it, but they cannot say that the House has been sneaky. The House agreed to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c2e5d988d2454a89ac98e6c4b86753\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I never implied that the House was sneaky; I just implied that Labour was sneaky. There is a subtle difference there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill is an attempt by the Labour Government to put through a couple of pieces of its policy in a bill, under the guise of something that, politically, most members of the public want to see happen. The infant feeding portion of the bill is something that is not really a debatable issue. Most members of the public perceive the need for that and for some regulation in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe meal breaks portion of the bill is not such a public issue and has not required such attention. It was quite obvious in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee that this idea was not thought through. The meal breaks component of the bill could have taken away workers\u2019 rights. There was the potential that many workers may have engaged in contracts that gave them greater meal breaks than the mandatory ones in this bill. The bill had to be amended at the select committee once the National Party members brought it to the Government members\u2019 attention that the bill they put forward would hurt workers. They were putting forward legislation that would take rights off workers. Can members believe that? Only the National Party members of the select committee brought that up, and it was only the National members\u2019 good conscience at the select committee that enabled workers to retain the rights that they got in their individual agreements, rather than get Labour\u2019s quick-fix solutions to these idealistic programmes that did not take into account the reality of contractual arrangements between employees and employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EToday and yesterday we have been aghast at seeing that the Minister has included a portion in this bill in respect of the KiwiSaver legislation. There is a problem in respect of the KiwiSaver side of it. That programme was another piece of legislation the Government brought forward that it did not think about. It did not follow due consultation, and it did not look at what the options would be in the marketplace. One of the problems with the KiwiSaver legislation has been that employers may be able to not give a wage rise in the year following the implementation of the legislation, and to say that the KiwiSaver contribution is the pay rise. That is something that a lot of employees would naturally feel quite aggrieved to see happen. This is why that change has been brought about to the legislation\u2014so that elements of the law in which employers could potentially take advantage of employees are able to be rectified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut this is not the appropriate place to do that. It is not the appropriate place to put in a sneaky amendment to legislation that would mean that this part of the KiwiSaver regime had been fixed up through a Supplementary Order Paper in respect of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. If the Minister had liked to do the process properly, he should have put forward an amendment to the KiwiSaver legislation and put it through the appropriate political processes, not use this method of trying to get the fix-up measures done in time for an election in a few months\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThose fix-up measures are something that the National Party is now seeing and that the public of New Zealand will see over the next couple weeks. We are seeing this Government attempt, in any little way it can, to change legislation to its advantage in its last dying days in office. We will see it put up a lot more Supplementary Order Papers and amendments. The National Party will be vigilant in looking at those, because it now sees the agenda of this political party in its dying days in Government. Its agenda is to change the focus of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00226ccb29e2c44e459785b93e22355cf326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ccb29e2c44e459785b93e22355cf326\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E If the member over there is convinced that Supplementary Order Paper 229 put up by the Minister of Labour is sneaky, why the dickens did he agree to it going before the House? The Minister sought leave yesterday evening to extend the scope of the bill to embrace his Supplementary Order Paper. Why the dickens did the National Party agree to it, if it feels so strongly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f474925de2c4314997d14b047c7e0bd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Moved a motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259144abe81ce4d1e8de583ef8bc4f180\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He moved a motion. The whole thing was done correctly, as per the Standing Orders, and National members sit over there and say \u201COh, it\u2019s sneaky.\u201D It is not sneaky if it is up front.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill. Something else the member might think is sneaky\u2014but I know that Kate Wilkinson does not\u2014is the amendment in my name, which adjusts the main part of the bill. It amends the part that deals with rest breaks in particular. It simply proposes adding subsection (2) to section 69ZH, inserted by clause 5, and states: \u201C(2) Despite subsection (1), where an employee is a person who is required to take a rest break by, or under, another enactment, the requirement for a rest break defined by, or under, the other enactment applies instead of the provisions or entitlements for rest breaks or meal breaks provided under this Part.\u201D The amendment comes about because, basically, the legislation that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014of which I was a member\u2014handed back to the House did not correctly cover the rest breaks scenario in respect of the transport industry. We thought it did, but it did not\u2014hence the amendment in my name, which I tabled this very morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 229 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard deals with KiwiSaver. Let me make it quite clear: as far as New Zealand First is concerned, we believe in compulsory savings. We always have; we have long been on record as saying that loud and clear. This measure is not compulsory, but it is a step towards it. The Supplementary Order Paper is needed to ensure that there is the maximum incentive for individuals to join KiwiSaver. That is how I see it. It encourages people to join KiwiSaver. We understand that some employers are caught in a trap. Understandably, they will be given time to rectify the situation, but, in essence, KiwiSaver is an essential vehicle in this country to encourage people to save. We hope that, in the fullness of time\u2014and I clarify for members that I am talking about years rather than days, and certainly not hours\u2014legislation will come into being that makes it compulsory for people in this country to save. It is likely there would have to be exceptions for people on low pay who cannot afford to save, but, by and large, we should do everything we can to encourage people in this country to save, and we should eventually make it compulsory for them to do so. Australia introduced such legislation years and years ago, and it has over a trillion dollars in its superannuation account that it invests here, there, and everywhere. It is about time New Zealand stepped up to the plate. New Zealand First has advocated that for a long, long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 229 improves the legislation by giving more incentive for people to save for their retirement and whatever else. So New Zealand First will support this provision. We would have preferred the process to be a little different\u2014a little more transparent, should I say\u2014but we need this measure here and now. That is how New Zealand First sees it. So we will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn essence, this bill is not contentious. It does the right thing for New Zealanders in terms of breastfeeding and breaks\u2014I hesitated just then, because I was going to say \u201Csmoko breaks\u201D, but they are not allowed now, are they\u2014and it addresses the KiwiSaver concerns. New Zealand First supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022013aa45faae94eddbbf7c8e63cdf746b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022013aa45faae94eddbbf7c8e63cdf746b\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take another call on the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. The comments of Mr Brown were interesting. He said that the bill was not contentious, and in a sense he was right. The bill was not contentious, but it certainly is now in relation to KiwiSaver. I still think that the Supplementary Order Paper in relation to KiwiSaver is sneaky, and I want to address that point for a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ENational will be opposing the KiwiSaver amendment to the bill. We will be voting for the bill because we do believe in fairness in the workplace, and we do believe that workers are entitled to meal breaks and rest breaks. We think it is good employment practice also to provide breastfeeding facilities and breaks where reasonable and practicable. National does believe in fairness in the workplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EEmployers should be able to treat employees fairly regardless of their private and personal savings decisions. Why should it be unlawful to offer employees different salary packages because they are or are not members of KiwiSaver? Why should one employee be treated less favourably than another merely because that employee has made a different private savings decision? It is a ridiculous approach for introducing important legislation to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe original bill has gone through a proper consultation process. Interested parties have had a chance to work through the issues it has raised. It has come out of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee with amendments, and now we have this last minute Supplementary Order Paper that gives the general public absolutely no opportunity to consider this change to the KiwiSaver scheme or to make submissions on it. This KiwiSaver amendment is actually another case of bad faith from this Government. This Government touts good faith all the time, yet this is a perfect example of bad faith. The Government specifically allowed for employers to include employee KiwiSaver contributions as part of its total remuneration in the original KiwiSaver. Now it is reversing its position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis amendment will introduce complex and costly uncertainties into the planning of employers. They cannot be sure how much their wage bill is going to be in any given year, and leaving well alone would at least allow some certainty to employers who, in general, have made a good fist of the introduction of KiwiSaver. Their good faith should be reciprocated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that it is actually unlawful now anyway for an employer to do what the Minister alleges\u2014that is, to deduct the employer contribution from employees without first giving them a pay increase of at least that amount. It is unlawful now. Why do we need this amendment? Currently section 101B of the KiwiSaver Act makes it quite clear that after 13 December 2007 the question of whether compulsory employer contributions are in addition to current remuneration or can be offset in part against pay rises is subject to mutual agreement between employers and employees. Good faith is a requirement. This Government has exhibited bad faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThat provision was specifically inserted at the time by Government members on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. At the time Michael Cullen said: \u201CThe Government expects that the phase-in of compulsory matching employer contributions will be taken into account in wage and salary bargaining.\u201D That is what he said. The Government was therefore quite comfortable that there would be trade offs between pay rises and KiwiSaver contributions, and now, without consultation, without allowing the submission process, and without allowing the select process, the Government has U-turned and reversed its position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis Government claims that this move will genuinely benefit people who are in the KiwiSaver scheme, but if one looks at it the other way, one sees that it will harm people who are not in KiwiSaver. People who can afford to save will benefit. People who cannot afford to save and enter into the KiwiSaver scheme will not be able to benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EEmployment laws should be based on what is fair. There should be a balance of what is fair in the circumstances to both employees and employers. Employment laws need to help both employers and employees control their own destinies as far as possible. This Supplementary Order Paper does not do that, and, as the Hon Peter Dunne has aptly stated, the irony of this amendment is that it will disadvantage lower-paid workers and elderly workers\u2014exactly the people whom Labour claims to represent. National will be opposing this Supplementary Order Paper, but we reiterate that we are voting in favour of the fairness of the meal breaks portion of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00229b2bc08b2e02425495a0deb1c5d9c108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b2bc08b2e02425495a0deb1c5d9c108\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the Committee on the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. I will start off by talking about the importance of breastfeeding by our young mums\u2014and our not-so-young mums, as it happens to be in society a bit these days\u2014and perhaps talk about how that actually works in the workplace. Although I am not a big fan of over-regulation, and certainly find parts of this bill a little unnecessary, if nothing else it has brought the issue a bit more to the fore. People are speaking a bit more about what that relationship means when women have a baby and then go back to work, and how they juggle working, the care of the child, breastfeeding, and everything else, so how could we in the National Party not stand up and support that as being a good thing at the end of the day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to meal breaks I do not think I am alone in being relatively appalled at some of the stories that we heard, such as those about people who perhaps did not get breaks, had feelings of disadvantage, and did not feel like they could stand up and have their voices heard on the issue. So to say that I thought this legislation was necessary would be utterly wrong, but to say that if it has to be passed and this is the way that this Government thinks all problems can be solved\u2014if it moves, then legislate and regulate\u2014then we actually can stand up and support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThis morning I will talk a bit about process. I do not think that anyone out there would disagree that if it were a National Government that was slipping a Supplementary Order Paper through like this one is being slipped through\u2014at the last minute, when the public had not had the opportunity to address it\u2014and it was being introduced after the select committee process, there would be an uproar from the other side of the Chamber. I can tell members that the uproar is happening from this side. We say that people deserve transparency on the issue. People deserve an opportunity to have a say on this Supplementary Order Paper, because it makes a fundamental difference to the bill and therefore makes a fundamental difference to their workplaces. People deserve the opportunity to make sure there is transparency on this issue and they deserve an opportunity to be heard. This Clark-Peters Government is not giving them that opportunity, and it is stepping aside and thinking it can slip something through under urgency, at the last minute. That is appalling for process. It is bad lawmaking and bad for process to slip in a Supplementary Order Paper at the last minute that contains an amendment that makes a fundamental difference. That is wrong, and people have a right to be heard. This Clark-Peters Government is a Government that supposedly stands up for democracy and believes that that should actually be happening. This process is obviously not open democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236be5b34f6cb46ca9dc0ea10db6a714e\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about open democracy, National Party\u2014what do you stand for? What are your policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc44753362d8412a89dacce44f36beb7\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cunliffe wishes to speak about open democracy, and let us do that. Let us talk about what this bill actually means for employers when it comes to the KiwiSaver scheme and how it can happen. If this was so important that it needed to go through, I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, why it was not put through at the beginning of the process and why it is being snuck through under urgency at the end of the process. I think that is a question that the Minister should stand up and be counted on\u2014that he should put on record. Why was this Supplementary Order Paper not presented months ago when we were dealing with the 17th or 18th amendment to this legislation because it was rushed through so appallingly in the beginning? Why are we still rushing amendments through, and why is the public not having a say on something that is of importance to them in their workplaces and in their workplace relationships? While this Clark-Peters Government rails on about how important process is, how important open democracy is, and how important it is to be open, we are seeing a classic example of something being snuck through in urgency, without the substance to go with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThroughout the Committee stage on this bill we certainly heard people talking about breastfeeding and how important it is. I think it is, for a small number of people who are still breastfeeding and who wish to have that in the workplace, but we heard from employers that they saw that as being important as well, and that they felt it was something they could accommodate relatively easily, although it will differ from workplace to workplace as to how they actually do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWe heard about meal and rest breaks. In fact, we heard that it is happening across the board, and it is not such an issue. As far as this legislation is concerned, I know that my colleagues on the select committee certainly spent a lot of time trying to make sure there was that bit of flexibility. The flexibility needed for those rest and meal breaks is as much for the advantage of the employee as it might be for the employer. We heard many instances of when employees wish to take a 10-minute break and attach that other 30 minutes at the end of the day so they can go home early to their children. They were looking at that sort of flexibility in their working arrangements. I only hope that this move to legislate will not deter some of those flexible arrangements that happen for employees and employers at the moment. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022064fc09a32914a39b3f31e98bebf4e85\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000070\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022335f466d46b541b88b71795e9f40f6cf\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9e2568d0eb45c6b2c4f0903f241f5e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is on clauses 5 and 6. It also includes an amendment put forward by Peter Brown and the Minister\u2019s amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 229.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00226106c761843e42eaa8c150a8cbc0f6c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226106c761843e42eaa8c150a8cbc0f6c1\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Again, I am delighted to stand to take a call on Part 2 of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. As we have been throughout this process, National is supportive of giving meal breaks and rest breaks to workers, and National is supportive of giving breastfeeding facilities and breaks in the workplace where reasonable and practicable. I have to say that it is not without some concern, of course, because the prescriptive nature of the bill does add compliance costs to businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn terms of the provision in relation to breaks, the issue that was raised at the select committee was not the duration of the meal breaks and rest breaks or the provision of the meal breaks and rest breaks; it was the prescriptive nature of the timing of those meal breaks and rest breaks. Although one of the union submitters attempted to suggest that the old awards were far more prescriptive and that this provision was far less prescriptive, that was actually proved to be false when we pointed out that the old tearooms award specifically stated that breaks were to be taken \u201Cat a time convenient to the employer\u201D. \u201CAt a time convenient to the employer\u201D is not the same as the wording in section 69ZE(1AA), in new Part 6D\u2014in clause 5 of the bill\u2014that has been agreed to by the select committee: \u201CRest breaks and meal breaks are to be observed during an employee\u0027s work period\u2014(a) at the times agreed between the employee and his or her employer; but (b) in the absence of such an agreement, as specified in subsections (1) to (4).\u201D That amendment is important. It at least acknowledges the ability of the employer and the employee to reach agreement, and we will certainly be voting for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI signal at the outset that we will also be supporting Peter Brown\u2019s amendment. It has particular relevance to the transport industry. The transport industry submitters were most concerned about the consequences of this bill for their respective operations. Their hours of work and the timing of their work breaks are covered under separate subordinate legislation, such as the work time and logbooks rule and the maritime rules. Mr Peter Brown\u2019s amendment makes it clear that those specific transport-related rules would prevail. We will support that. To not support it runs the risk of there being conflicting rules, and confusion as to which rules prevail in relation to the transport industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere is still concern, of course, about the wording of the bill and, in particular, about what \u201Creasonable and practicable\u201D means, because that term is applied not just to the rest break and meal break provisions but also to the provision of breastfeeding facilities and to breastfeeding breaks. Concern has been expressed as to what \u201Creasonable and practicable\u201D would exactly mean and what it would entail to test it. We were given some guidance that there is some definition or indication of what \u201Creasonable and practicable\u201D means in health and safety legislation, but not in the Employment Relations Act itself. Perhaps that health and safety legislation can provide some guidance as to what \u201Creasonable and practicable\u201D means. There is also some comfort\u2014again, not a lot of comfort\u2014in the fact that a meaning will be provided in a code of practice that is to be drafted. One can only hope that it will be drafted with sufficient certainty and flexibility to ensure that both employees and employers understand what it means, and to ensure that it is fair. With any legislation, we have a duty to create good law. Good law requires certainty, and not just for businesses; both employees and employers need certainty as to what the wording of the legislation means and what it will entail. That proposed code will need to be drafted with a lot of thought and research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00228a6036526fb9410fa543a61d3606d605\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a6036526fb9410fa543a61d3606d605\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E As regards the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill, my colleague Kate Wilkinson has made some very pertinent points about it. A number of amendments take into account the views of specific industries that felt the bill did not accommodate the practicalities and the realities of how they actually do business. The transport industry was one of those whose representatives came before the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2014with special reference to the nature of the bus industry. They made it quite clear that the bill would have a detrimental effect on the way that they run their operations. I think all the members of the select committee saw some relevance and some practicality in what they were saying. The amendments put forward in that regard take into account the need to make law that is sensible, where we can do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut in looking at the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill in a general sense, I think one of the big things about the meal break portion of it is to consider what it actually means for a lot of employees. A lot of employees negotiate meal breaks within their employment agreements. During the course of the select committee process, it was found that some employees would actually lose rights under this legislation proposed by a Labour Government. Many employees have better rules in regard to meal breaks than what this legislation was originally going to provide, and, in this case, still provides. We saw that in the medical field, especially with nurses, who in certain cases had negotiated much more comprehensive arrangements for their meal breaks. The legislation was going to take away some of those advantages. The select committee looked at the legislation and came to the conclusion that we needed to make sure that workers would not be in a worse position than they were in before this legislation had been proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat was one of the key requirements that the select committee made some progress on, and we saw amendments made to the bill to take into account the nature of the work arrangements. Members will see that the words \u201Cso far as is reasonable and practicable in the circumstances\u201D have been added to clause 4. That is one of the opportunities, I guess, to provide some flexibility within the legislation to take into account individual circumstances. There is a bit of debate about what the wording actually means; \u201Creasonable\u201D and \u201Cpracticable\u201D are quite legalistic terms, but they are common terms that are used throughout our legislation and in our courts. They open up the way for interpretation, and that should be done in a meaningful and progressive way for all concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the timing of rest breaks, we see that one of the major considerations was to get those timing requirements right\u2014not too prescriptive but not too restrictive, either. The bill needed to take into account the nature of work arrangements and also employment agreements, in the sense that some speciality of the work or the nature of it may require negotiation on the timing and the nature of rest breaks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIn essence the legislation, in trying to deal with breaks, dealt with some things one would find in normal employment arrangements. The legislation needed to account for that, and in most cases that has been done through the Supplementary Order Paper that has been put forward, or through the select committee process, which looked at the practical realities of what the legislation could provide, to make sure we had sensible legislation going forward that could provide those kinds of meal breaks in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe National Party supports this legislation. Some changes have been made to it in the past couple of days that probably are not in the best interests of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Peter Brown to clause 5 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003Eto add to section 69ZH the following subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E(2) \tDespite subsection (1), where an employee is a person who is required to take a rest break by, or under, another enactment, the requirement for a rest break defined by, or under, the other enactment applies instead of the provisions or entitlements for rest breaks or meal breaks provided under this Part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b939949d6ebb41ac990f9bf29682dde1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000089\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022865fe47ae28042c9b831955c2c082e8f\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000091\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229c098ffcb6a647c3bfe5684c9566c47b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000092\u0022\u003EClause 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000093\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002218f329890a3e46bc8acd876340690a66\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000094\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000095\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000096\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d239eb0258244c980a82d192d33f7f8\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Breaks, Infant Feeding and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c7f6c2e34ad4990a19c91e0c6ce66b6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb97bb676f1045f4aeddbfcc9c76f6fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb97bb676f1045f4aeddbfcc9c76f6fd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Employment Relations (Breaks, Infant Feeding and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This is a bill with relatively non-controversial parts to it. Right at the beginning I acknowledge the very good work of my parliamentary colleague Sue Moroney in the early stages of this legislation. I also thank Steve Chadwick for the expertise that she has shown. Those two members from the Waikato and the Bay of Plenty have made an enormous contribution to Parliament, and I thank them for getting into the law something that is very, very reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThere was a fairly small amendment on the question of KiwiSaver that did not take a lot of debating late last night and early this morning. Essentially, the amendment organises the law in the way that people thought it should be organised. In fact many of us thought\u2014other than from the actions of some unreasonable employers\u2014that that was what was occurring under the law anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230b05f3ae0af42298b4653ff0dcb9972\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you fix it when they submitted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f1f2df4686f482798ddada4b29808a3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, basically it was because I did not believe any employer would be so unreasonable as to take KiwiSaver employer contributions from the wages of a worker and at the same time collect the employer subsidies. That is a sad state of affairs, and it is clear that Craig Foss has more experience of working with unethical employers than I have. He could well be one himself. That is something that the National Party, to its shame, stood up for. National members stood up for employers who were taking the employer contribution out of the wages of their employees. That was absolutely wrong, and I think it is sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EBut I think it is fair to say that National members did not stand up for it for very long. They did not oppose the motion to incorporate the amendment regarding KiwiSaver in the bill, which is something that I was slightly surprised about, and they voted for it at each stage. They voted for Parts 1 and 2 of the bill, notwithstanding those changes. They voted for the second reading, and I understand that they are voting for the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESo I am very pleased to say we have a unanimous decision of the Parliament to treat employees properly as to their meal breaks and rest breaks, and to treat breastfeeding mothers, and those mothers who are expressing milk, with much more dignity than has been the case in the past. I think that is very important. Furthermore, we have had the clarification around KiwiSaver, which I understand will be passed unanimously as part of the third reading of the bill, and I want to thank all members of the House for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ddbdd1650a4bad9ded8d92a2cabd31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ddbdd1650a4bad9ded8d92a2cabd31\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the third reading of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill, which we probably should be calling the \u201CEmployment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding and Sneaky KiwiSaver) Amendment Bill\u201D. However, we are voting, of course, in favour of the third reading of this bill, despite the fact that we vehemently opposed the Supplementary Order Paper in relation to the KiwiSaver provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe bill should have been relatively uncontroversial. Of course National believes that employees should be given meal breaks and tea breaks, and by all accounts common sense prevails and this actually does happen. Employers want to retain good employees; they will do what they can to do so, and they will work in with employees to make sure the workplace is a happy environment. Rest breaks and meal breaks are not there just for health and safety issues, of course; they are also there for the socialising impact between employees so that they can get to know each other and it can be a happy and productive workplace, and we certainly support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EObviously, the bill was drafted with two\u2014well, it is now three\u2014relatively separate and discrete issues. Firstly, one was to deal with meal breaks and rest breaks, which most people did think was already covered in the law; it was certainly arguable that it is already covered in the health and safety legislation. But this bill, to a certain extent, codifies what happens with rest breaks and meal breaks, and for that reason it should be relatively uncontroversial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill deals with the requirement for the employer to provide breastfeeding breaks and facilities. We did ask at the time why those two matters, which are relatively discreet and separate, were included in the one bill. The answer that was given to us was that it was to make it politically difficult for National. I have to say that National has not found it politically difficult to debate in favour of giving meal breaks and tea breaks to employees, because we believe in fairness in the workplace. We believe in balancing what is fair to employees with what is fair to employers. [Interruption] We have said that all along, I say to Mr Fairbrother, even though the member may not have heard it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhat we did oppose, though, is Supplementary Order Paper 229, which shows the unfairness of this Labour Government, the arrogance of this Labour Government, and, actually, its bad faith. The Employment Relations Act is based on good faith, and this is one of the most classic examples of this Government exhibiting bad faith. The relevance of KiwiSaver to breaks and infant feeding still eludes most common people. That was dealt with in the House yesterday\u2014apparently by motion\u2014surreptitiously and sneakily. The amendment has not been subject to proper scrutiny: it has not been subject to consultation, and it has not been subject to proper scrutiny of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. The public have not been permitted to submit on it, and to give their views. It has been snuck through, under urgency, at the eleventh hour, and I have to say that I think that is a sad, sad day for democracy in this country. I think it is a disgrace, and an abuse of process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAlready this Parliament has been criticised by a New York University professor for the recklessness of its lawmaking and for the irresponsible lawmaking that can happen, and this is an example of that. I find it very disappointing that this Government is so arrogant and so ignorant of the process of legislation, and just overrides common sense, common decency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b056e59646ee4833a4469e2629c689a8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The member voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d0d48dbeb946608bdef334cc4fdbb2\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we did not vote for the amendment\u2014in fast-tracking legislation, which the professor himself described as disgraceful by world standards. This is reckless legislative process. It is a typical example of bills being rushed through under urgency in a deserted Chamber. Members are subservient to the executive, there are constant closure motions, there is no quorum, and there is no second Chamber, which is why we do have a robust select committee process. But this Government just ignores that. There were no checks and balances on Supplementary Order Paper 229 for KiwiSaver. I have to say that the duty of care was not being properly exercised when this was snuck through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis undermines the effectiveness of the select committee process. It actually undermines the confidence that New Zealanders can have in the democracy of our country. I think that that democracy, unfortunately, is not as robust and not as stable as one would expect. It is tenuous, and when we have a Government like we have, after 9 long years one realises just how tenuous democracy really is. There is no concern, whatsoever, for common decency, for democracy. It is just power at all costs: \u201CWe want to get in; we will do what we have to to stay in power, not what is best for New Zealanders.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhat is best for New Zealanders is to have a proper consultation process. What is best for businesses is that they should be consulted on these far-reaching KiwiSaver amendments. What is best for New Zealanders is that the very people that this Labour Government pretend to be supporting, the lower-paid and elderly workers\u2014those workers who cannot afford to enter into the KiwiSaver scheme\u2014are those workers who have not been consulted. Has the impact of the KiwiSaver legislation been referred to them? No, it has not. On the day that this House went into urgency a sneaky amendment was introduced, bearing no relevance whatsoever to a meal breaks bill, a tea breaks bill, and a breastfeeding facilities bill\u2014bearing no relevance whatsoever\u2014with no consultation and no submission to a select committee, and I think it is atrocious and an outrage that it has been done in this manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe did oppose the KiwiSaver amendment, because we do not think it is fair. We think that providing meal breaks and tea breaks is more than fair. We think that providing breastfeeding facilities and breaks is more than fair when reasonable and practicable, but the KiwiSaver Supplementary Order Paper 229 is not fair. Why should it\u2014and this has not been answered by the Minister\u2014be unlawful to offer employees different salary packages because they are or are not members of KiwiSaver? Why should one employee be treated less favourably than another because that employee has made a different private savings decision? This amendment is a case of bad faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is really interesting that the Government specifically allowed for employers to include employer KiwiSaver contributions as part of that total remuneration package when it passed the KiwiSaver Act. Now this Government has flip-flopped, done a U-turn, and has reversed that decision. At the time, the Minister of Finance said the Government expected that the phase-in of compulsory matching employer contributions would be taken into account in wage and salary bargaining. The Government was quite comfortable that there would be trade-offs between pay rises and KiwiSaver contributions. What has happened since then? What has happened is that the Minister has decided that it is unlawful for employers to deduct the employer contributions from employees without first giving them a pay rise of at least that amount. But that is already unlawful under existing KiwiSaver legislation. That did not need to be sneaked through as a Supplementary Order Paper to the meal breaks and rest breaks legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe KiwiSaver Act provisions made it quite clear that after 13 December 2007 the question of whether compulsory employer contributions are in addition to current remuneration or can be offset in part against pay rises is subject to mutual agreement between employers and employees. That provision was specifically inserted by Government members on the select committee, and this Government has now reversed its stance. Good faith is a requirement of the Employment Relations Act provisions. It seems that good faith is not a requirement of the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00227d3d01db161b4b43862939e089ae1e4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d3d01db161b4b43862939e089ae1e4a\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E People say that timing is everything. I think it is very appropriate that at roughly 8 minutes past 10, when a lot of workplaces throughout this land are in the middle of having morning tea, we are here in the third reading of the very bill that brings that provision into law and makes it compulsory for workplaces to recognise that workers have the legal right to\u2014not just the right to negotiate\u2014decent breaks at work. As a member of Parliament who was involved in drafting the parts of this bill that refer to the right for workers to have those decent breaks at work, I feel very pleased to be able to stand up here, as most of the nation is having its morning tea break, to vote in favour of the third reading of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI shall talk a little bit about the history of why, as a new member of Parliament, I chose to make this an issue that I wanted to put before this Parliament. It was because of my experiences, as I campaigned in the last election, when this issue was brought to my attention. I remember one particular instance very clearly. A group of young men who were working in a service station in the Waikato came to see me because their staffing arrangements had changed. Their service station had cut the number of staff it was employing. We all know the story that when we pull into service stations these days we do not have someone come out to fill up our car for us; we prepay and we do it all ourselves. The cutting back of staffing numbers at that service station meant that those workers were not getting a lunch break. They were not getting a lunch break at all. They were working 12-hour shifts, and because there was a requirement to have one person available for forecourt duties at any given time, the service station did not have the staff to allow any of them to go off to have a lunch break. Those young men said to me: \u201CThis can\u2019t be right. Surely there\u2019s a law against this.\u201D When I looked into it, sadly I found that there was no law that safeguarded them. That was the very beginning of my thinking very seriously about this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAs I kept thinking about this issue I found that those young men are not alone in their predicament; there are a range of workers for whom tea breaks, rest periods, and meal breaks are not the norm in their working day. They are invariably young people, they are invariably workers in small workplaces, and they are invariably the most vulnerable in our workforce who have been suffering this fate. But as a result of this bill being passed, they will suffer no longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAnother situation that came before our select committee demonstrates the need\u2014yes, the need\u2014for this bill. I know that National Party members have said they do not think the bill is necessary, but we had many stories coming before our select committee that demonstrated that it was. One example was from a young worker in Hamilton East, where I come from. He had been working for Subway, and told us about being sacked for daring to take a meal break of half an hour during a 12-hour shift. He was sacked for that. I observed that National Party members at the time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240355c5e23844b00a735a952718f642b\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: He deserted the workplace!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602cdf6d992e4ae3bfa2099295829e09\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I notice Kate Wilkinson is saying something quite different now\u2014said to this young man that that was illegal and that he could take a personal grievance. Yes, under the current laws he can take a personal grievance and he is, in fact, taking a personal grievance. But the National Party is proposing a 90-day probationary period bill that it wants to bring in if it is the Government. That policy would completely take away this young man\u2019s right to take a personal grievance over that issue, because this young man was in the first 90 days of his employment with Subway. There were some very nice sentiments from National Party members opposite but absolutely no ability to understand that their policies would have taken away that young man\u2019s right to contest that unfair dismissal over the right just to have a reasonable lunch break while at work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe next situation I want to talk about is with regard to the KiwiSaver aspects brought into this bill. I fully endorse the Government acting at the earliest opportunity to stop that unfairness in the workplace, because there is an unfairness in the workplace. What has been happening is that some employers\u2014and I would call them mean-spirited employers\u2014have taken away and reduced workers\u2019 take-home pay because they dare to be some of those workers who look to the future and save for their retirement. They have been discriminating against workers because they dare to save for their retirement\u2014and that is wrong. This Government was not going to stand by for another minute longer and let that unfairness continue to happen in our workplaces in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI feel confident that fair-minded New Zealanders resile from this practice, because I have had pay clerks come to see me because they do not want to implement their employers\u2019 mean-spirited views on this. The people coming to see me are not those who are disadvantaged by it, but the pay clerks who are saying they are being told to do that, and they do not want to do it because it is unfair and is just not right. If that is the view of a pay clerk, who is not the person who is going to be disadvantaged at all, then I feel confident that fair-minded New Zealanders will see the basic unfairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EMembers should have seen the look on the pay clerk\u2019s face when I told her that the situation was even worse than she expected. When I informed her that her employer was getting a $20 a week tax credit for every single employee involved in the KiwiSaver scheme and that that was more than the 1 percent the employer was knocking off employees\u2019 wages, then she could see straight away that the employer was double-dipping\u2014taking taxpayer money for having employees involved in KiwiSaver and then taking money off those workers to pay for the employer contribution that was already being paid for by the taxpayer. That was completely unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe National Party cannot see that, at all. It voted against the Supplementary Order Paper that said that that was wrong and would not be tolerated in this country\u2014because the National Party does not care. The National Party thinks that that sort of unfairness at work, and that sort of double-dipping into taxpayers\u2019 and workers\u2019 pockets at the same time, is fine. It has no problem with it\u2014\u201CLet\u2019s not fix it up; let\u2019s just keep it going.\u201D Well, that will not happen under a Labour-led Government. We will not stand by for another minute longer and let that unfairness continue in the workplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI will not go into great details about my own personal experiences of infant feeding. Suffice it to say that expressing milk in a toilet cubicle is not a very dignified thing to be doing in one\u2019s workplace, but that is certainly the experience I have had in the past as a young mother in the workplace. Again, I congratulate my colleague the Hon Steve Chadwick, who had the foresight to ensure that this bill also included the right to have some dignity in infant feeding in the workplace, and I think that is a very appropriate thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIn closing I also thank the Minister and the officials for their work on this bill. It is a very important bill, it will make a difference to a significant number of New Zealanders, and it will ensure fairness in our workplaces. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002245e9a12ae72c402aa02dc88197c9f9da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245e9a12ae72c402aa02dc88197c9f9da\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak on three issues in relation to the third reading of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. The first issue is the general principles of the bill, which the previous Government speaker, Sue Moroney, spoke about. Then I will speak specifically about KiwiSaver issues. Thirdly, I will speak about process and procedure\u2014the way legislative issues are dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOn the first issue, let me make it completely clear to listeners, to governing party members, and to other parties that National supports this bill. The reasons we support this bill are the reasons that were given by Sue Moroney. We believe that people\u2014women, in particular\u2014must have dignity in the workplace in respect of breastfeeding, and so forth. That is why we support the bill. We had an extensive discussion in our caucus, and we understood that fairness requires that employees have proper opportunities for meal breaks and that mothers breastfeeding must have dignity in appropriate circumstances. So National is supporting the bill and I assure listeners that the reasons we are doing so are ones of fairness. The reason this bill is being passed into law today is that there is a consensus in Parliament. I know that the Government would like us to be voting against the bill. That would suit its agenda, and I could tell that from Sue Moroney\u2019s speech. I could tell that she was kind of disappointed that National is supporting this bill. She really wanted to be able to go out into Hamilton East and say that David Bennett does not understand the circumstances of workers needing tea breaks and that he does not understand the circumstances of mothers breastfeeding. Well, she will not have that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EPerhaps in the past the National Party may not have supported this bill. I can think of a National Party that may not have supported the bill, but the truth is that our party has shifted to some extent on some of these issues. That is why we have taken a much more moderate stand around employment relations generally, and I congratulate my colleague Kate Wilkinson in respect of that. We understand that New Zealanders expect fairness in the workplace and that the law must reflect that, as well. That is why we are not saying there will be wholesale and dramatic changes made to the Employment Relations Act. Clearly, we will make some changes, and they will be moderate and reasonable changes that are the norm in the OECD. The standard operating practice, if you will, across OECD countries is essentially where National is pitching itself, because we are taking a balanced and fair view in relation to employment relations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdacb8d644014f679d87f9a78ba456cd\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Same old philosophy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7940058f600463eab1780f92a6fcb06\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I know that New Zealand First will be interested to know that we are taking a fair and balanced view on that particular issue. That is a particular stake in the ground that I want to put: National has shifted on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe other two issues I will talk about relate more fundamentally to issues of, firstly, KiwiSaver, and, secondly, process. National has voted against the Supplementary Order Paper in relation to KiwiSaver. We believe that the situation is actually quite different from the way in which the Government expresses it. The way the Government expresses it is to say that it is unfair that someone who is in KiwiSaver potentially might receive less in his or her take-home pay than someone who is not. Actually, if members look at it the other way around they will see that it is also unfair, because the Government is also saying, by that statement, that it is fair that the person who is not receiving KiwiSaver would get less money, in terms of total remuneration purposes. That is the philosophical objection that National has. We say that employers and employees start from a total remuneration perspective, and then from there they will work out how it is delivered. The vast majority of it will be received as a cash payment via salary and wages. Some people might choose to take, for instance, a company car. Others may take other fringe benefits. Others will take superannuation, and all of that needs to be calculated. I certainly appreciate that clearly there is value in cash received right now, as opposed to the deferment in terms of KiwiSaver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe way we view this is philosophically different from the way the Government sees it. We start from the point of total remuneration. The Government simply does not see that, and that is why it has never really understood the objection of the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern), which looked into this particular issue very carefully; it simply refused to understand it. We can understand the point that has been made about the tax credit, and there is some merit in that, but, of course, that gets taken into account in any event in negotiations on total remuneration. That is the proper starting point in the contemporary workforce around how one receives one\u2019s salary\u2014part in cash, part in superannuation, and part, no doubt, in many instances, in other fringe benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe third issue I want to deal with is the process of Supplementary Order Paper 229. It is actually a broader principle, anyway, because in the last 24 hours we have seen a pattern whereby the Government introduces Supplementary Order Papers in a way that does not allow for proper consideration. I could understand a Supplementary Order Paper on this particular bill, for instance, being introduced last week, giving time for a dialogue, time for members of Parliament to talk to the relevant parties affected and so forth, and time for a more considered debate, but to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper on\u2014essentially\u2014a new topic on the day the bill comes before the Committee of the whole House is, I believe, an abuse of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI refer Government members back to a former Labour Prime Minister\u2019s book, Unbridled Power\u2014published some 29 years ago, in fact\u2014in which he spoke of these kinds of issues. The way the New Zealand Parliament was characterised back then was that it was the fastest lawmaker in the West. What are the characteristics of being a fast lawmaker? It is actually about the House being in urgency all the time, or at least on a regular basis, in relation to bills. It is about introducing large Supplementary Order Papers, which is the case in respect of the emissions trading scheme, into the select committee process at a time when they can no longer be properly considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn relation to the emissions trading scheme, 700 amendments were introduced at the very point in time that the bill was to be debated. I read many of those amendments yesterday. Some of them were actually complex in their own right. They had to be referred back to both the bill itself and the prior Supplementary Order Paper. Members had to mesh all that together during the debate in the Committee of the whole House. Some of the amendments clearly were just technical. I guess there is no real objection about a minor technical amendment such as, for example, schedule one being described as \u201Cschedule 1\u201D as opposed to \u201Cschedule one\u201D. Clearly, no one has concerns about that. But other amendments were not of that character at all, particularly around some of the trading issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI use that as an example, because just very recently\u2014and it has been recorded in both the major legal publications in New Zealand\u2014Professor Jeremy Waldron of the New York University school of law spoke in New Zealand of the \u201Cterribly irresponsible\u201D view of our parliamentary institutions that has \u201Cenabled the debasement\u201D\u2014and I want this to be noted specifically\u2014\u201Cof deliberation.\u201D Bear in mind that this Parliament does not have a second Chamber. Second Chambers, historically, are for deliberation and scrutiny. A single Chamber such as this\u2014the legislature, as in Australia and other countries\u2014tends to operate more quickly. That is OK when there is a more deliberative process, but in our jurisdiction we do not have that, so it behoves Governments to be a little bit more careful to allow that debate to take place. I have to say to the parties that are here because of our MMP system of representation that MMP has not actually changed that aspect of our parliamentary institution. It has changed other aspects\u2014and I must say from my own perspective that it is generally for the good\u2014but that particular aspect has not changed at all. Anyone who was a member of Parliament in the 1970s or 1980s under first past the post would see today\u2019s legislative processes as being essentially the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt seems fundamentally wrong that in 2008 we are still beset with exactly the same set of problems that Sir Geoffrey Palmer referred to 29 years ago in his book Unbridled Power. So many members on the other side of the Chamber pride themselves on their constitutionalism and their care for parliamentary procedure. At least, they say that in theory; in practice, they abuse it. National is putting on the record our dissatisfaction of the way the Supplementary Order Paper for this bill was introduced. We need that on the record, because, frankly, this Parliament, for the benefit of the nation, needs to do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00223ee7a8d97a2b4051b24a2a885e99d160\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ee7a8d97a2b4051b24a2a885e99d160\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to Wayne Mapp\u2019s speech with quite some interest. I was genuinely taken aback\u2014amazed\u2014by his statement that the National Party has changed and now wants to be fair to people in the workforce. I do not doubt that the member himself is genuine, but I could not help asking myself what some of his colleagues at a convention would say to a man with a tape recorder\u2014probably if they did not know he had one. But I welcome the National Party saying it wants to be fair, because, as Wayne Mapp has implied, it has been a long way short of that in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill is a very simple bill. I think it will go through the House with total support. In the first instance it encourages employers to provide breastfeeding facilities for women in the workforce where it is reasonable and practicable. What is wrong with that? It is very sensible and very fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8fdfd7c65e4253bf558612556c60f3\u0022\u003EHon Mita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0dfd5d95195458e96a3d620807738fa\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I suspect that some of those members do not like it, but they tell us they will vote for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe think that that is quite a big step forward for society. This bill goes on to formalise the requirement for employers to provide employees with meal and rest breaks. I have to say that before the bill came up I thought it was mandatory for an employer to provide for meal and rest breaks, and I was quite amazed to find that it is not written into legislation. Obviously, if it is written into employment contracts it gets acted upon. When the bill was before the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and we heard, in particular, the young man from Hamilton telling us his story, we had to think that we do need legislation like this to ensure that people do get their meal breaks and rest breaks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett likes to throw a spanner in the works. During the Committee he implied that the workers who received longer rest breaks or meal breaks than this legislation provided for could lose those breaks. Is that correct? Have I understood the member correctly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022760c16163d72440484e3d40514a6a55e\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269453c4ad08a401aa1682902a229ba44\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member was on the select committee, was he not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b81bc049ce6a443190bccf2748c37823\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why they changed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec062eff72ab4c768f8612f14d648806\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me read out new section 69ZG(1), to be inserted by clause 5: \u201CThis Part does not prevent an employer providing an employee with enhanced or additional entitlements to rest breaks and meal breaks (whether specified in an employment agreement or otherwise) on a basis agreed with the employee.\u201D That provision was amended by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b1d77cda3904b0592fde97f3f02dc99\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288bbf73f33684c6b9554ed214a5794ed\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why did the member not make that clear when he addressed this Parliament a few moments ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e99aead48ef48c6ba3ef6ffa2acc53c\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I did. If you check the Hansard you will read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4672c93347449c796b7c86e107363c5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I might well check the Hansard. That change is clearly written into new section 69ZG.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe final part of the bill that has upset the National Party to some degree amends the KiwiSaver legislation to give further encouragement for people to save. New Zealand First has been a strong advocate of people in this country saving. We were saying that when the party was formed in 1993, and we are still saying it. This is a move in the right direction. Unfortunately, it will capture some genuinely reputable employers, and they will have some difficulty implementing this change over a reasonable time frame and changing from the total remuneration package to this package, whatever it will be called\u2014there is probably a name for it. But the change will present some difficulty for some employers. I know one employer who will move heaven and earth to get this rectified, but it will take a bit of time. I am hopeful that that time will be given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis part also protects employees from the situation outlined by Sue Moroney. I did not know that that was occurring, and Sue outlined it very, very clearly a few moments ago. That sort of situation obviously creates a need for us to amend the current legislation pretty promptly. That is being done by way of a Supplementary Order Paper that is outside the scope of the main bill and that has been put forward, as National members have said, more or less at the last moment, which perhaps puts a question mark over it. We debated this amendment long and hard in New Zealand First, and we decided that the issue had to be addressed and had to be addressed speedily. So we are supporting this bill totally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002215b386b9780a45b2a3e6e6b2bb995d9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215b386b9780a45b2a3e6e6b2bb995d9b\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I was a bit disappointed, Mr Assistant Speaker, that you did not give me the call earlier, but given that you are showing your Scottish heritage we will forgive you today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022888d9946df9947829286f23e723959ce\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is nice of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcd8fe7ab0b0480daab85673c206575c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that although the Labour Government is amending the Employment Relations Act with this legislation, it is not amending the title of the bill to include the word \u201CKiwiSaver\u201D. Why did Labour not include KiwiSaver as part of the amendments? It did not do that because that would be far too honest, open, transparent, and accountable for this Government. It prefers the sneaky approach of just putting through a Supplementary Order Paper and having in it something quite irrelevant to the original legislation\u2014something that deals with a mistake it has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis legislation is symbolic of the mistakes that Labour has made. Labour has a continual process of making quick, cheap solutions, and not thinking through the full and final outcomes of what it puts forward. That is the case with the KiwiSaver legislation. There was a loophole in the KiwiSaver Act that some employers were taking advantage of, to the detriment of some employees. The Government has sought to address that loophole through a Supplementary Order Paper to a completely alien bill, the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. By doing that, Labour has shown its true colours to the public of New Zealand. It has shown that it is not willing to draft legislation that is good for New Zealand, that is good for workers, and that will build this country stronger. Labour just drafts legislation on the hop when it feels it is right and how it feels it is right, and it does so for political convenience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat is not the way to run this Parliament. It is not the message to send the people of New Zealand. The people of New Zealand will rectify that message in a few months\u2019 time, because they will deliver a message back to Labour that they are not happy with the process that it is engaged in, with the way it does things, and with the outcomes that it has achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the outcomes of this bill, we can see that a pretty quick job was done on it by Labour when the bill came before the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. Labour had not really thought out what it wanted to achieve with it. In fact, the bill was detrimental to some employees. Labour, in its wisdom, was going to pass legislation that took away rights from employees. Why would it do that? The reason is that it does not care about employees. Employees are not its mandate. Its mandate is to stay in power. Michael Cullen has said that. He has said: \u201COur job is to win this election and to stay in power.\u201D It is not about the people of New Zealand. It is not about the employees out there. It is not about the mothers out there. It is all about staying in power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhy are we in urgency? To stay in power. Why are we passing this legislation? To stay in power. Why are we passing the emissions trading scheme legislation? To stay in power. Why are we passing the emissions trading scheme? To give Labour something that says it was in power. That is what it is all about for Labour; it is not about the actual requirements of our country, our workers, and our people. It does not care, and it has never cared. It is a Clayton\u2019s promise to say that Labour cares for our people. All it is interested in is self-fulfilment and fulfilling its ambitions of power. That is what one sees time and time again with Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIf Labour had really cared, it would not have taken away employees\u2019 rights in the first place. It would have put forward a bill that took into account employees\u2019 rights. It was only the National members who stood up at the select committee and said that this legislation would take away some workers\u2019 rights. When National members told that to the officials, the officials said that some agreements provided for more open meal breaks than this legislation would provide for. Labour members then went back to their offices and decided to rewrite the legislation and put it back through the select committee with changes. That is the reality of what happened in this case. It was the National Party that looked after workers in the circumstances. It was the National Party that provided the incentive for New Zealanders to have the right solutions to their problems. It was not Labour that did so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ELabour will take the credit for the National Party time and time again, and this is another example of that happening. We stood up in that select committee and said that this legislation should not be ideological but practical, and that it should provide for people in their time of need in their working environment. That is something that the National Party is very proud of, and we will stand behind that position at any election forum. We can stand up and say we were genuinely after the workers\u2019 rights in this case, unlike Labour, which was after self-fulfilment and re-election by putting out policies in the last month of its 9 years of campaigning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhy would you put in a KiwiSaver amendment to the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill? Why would you not put up your own KiwiSaver Amendment Bill? That would be the normal, natural process that you would go through, but why would you not do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a14efbf5df344ddb07f43c0fb3f2959\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know the member has not been here for very long, but he knows not to bring the Speaker into the debate, and he has done that on about four occasions now in the last minute or so of his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad1224e90394551ad9386c941dd5ef9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must not use the word \u201Cyou\u201D. It actually brings the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221244fcc6bba542d6a05b0dc3173c7782\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the Labour - New Zealand First Government\u2014married and tied together like we will never see in any other political arrangement\u2014put forward an amendment of that kind to this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Government does not want to admit that it got it wrong with its KiwiSaver scheme. KiwiSaver was one of the Government\u2019s flagship policies. It went out there and talked about how great the scheme was, but the scheme took away rights from workers again. KiwiSaver had a hole in it that actually hurt workers. So the Government needed to reinvent its legislation, and the only way it could do that without going through a formal process of select committee hearings, and creating public awareness of the mistakes that it had made with KiwiSaver, was to amend it by means of this bill. That is the crux of what is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe select committee members from Labour and New Zealand First do not want to admit to their mistakes, so they are trying to hide it by means of this bill. In doing so they are showing, once again, that they are not acting in the best interests of New Zealand workers or the New Zealand economy. All they have regard for is the necessity for them to get through an election campaign. If they were honest, open, and transparent they would put up a separate bill to amend the KiwiSaver Act\u2014called the KiwiSaver Amendment Bill\u2014and they would detail the nature of the issue and look for some solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI believe that Labour members do not know what is going on in the KiwiSaver environment. They are just reacting to what they see as circumstances that may arise in the workplace over time. If they were to take a more progressive approach and get submissions from the public and those concerned, they might find there are other areas in the KiwiSaver environment that need to be amended as well, to look after workers\u2019 rights. That is not likely to happen in a Government that will not admit to failure and that pretends that everything is hunky-dory with its flagship policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Government knows in its heart of hearts that this policy is not successful and that the policy of KiwiSaver has some issues and needs to be refined. That cannot be done by means of this 3-page Supplementary Order Paper to amend the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. The heart of that bill now is the amendment to the KiwiSaver scheme. But this amendment should be in a separate bill and be sent to a different select committee\u2014the Finance and Expenditure Committee, not the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e374b0810454887970b555e70a5802c\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: The Supplementary Order Paper didn\u2019t go to any select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc80d0eaa11415aab1c4ce13d24fb3e\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It did not go to through any select committee, but if it had gone through a proper process, then the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee would have been the wrong committee for that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Government of the day has abused the processes of this House. It has taken advantage of this House by using urgency to put through this sneaky little amendment. It should not do that. The Government has made a deliberate use of the political process for its own gain. Members of this House should not be able to do that in good conscience. This House should be able to say that it has consulted on issues, that it has given the public of New Zealand the ability to have their say, and that it has given New Zealanders the chance to debate the issues of the day in the public forums of the media and also in the select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIf a Government does sneaky little amendments to legislation, as in this case, then it is denying the public the right to justice. The Labour - New Zealand First Government may want to deny the public the rights to justice, which is something it has done on numerous occasions, but it should not have done so in this situation. It should have been up front, it should have admitted its mistakes, and it should have used the appropriate processes to deal with them. It should not have taken advantage of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill to do so. That devalues this bill. It says that this bill is being used just for political purposes. It does not show that the Labour Government is committed to the intent of the legislation, and that is a shame for this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3eeeb0bacdd4c79a80c0c0b7575cb03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3eeeb0bacdd4c79a80c0c0b7575cb03\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise, on behalf of United Future, to support the third reading of the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill, but I start by explaining, making very clear, and putting on record why we have opposed Supplementary Order Paper 229, which amends the KiwiSaver provisions. We have done so for three reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe first, and perhaps the most important reason we are opposing the amendment, is that it represents extremely shoddy process in this House. I think the National member Wayne Mapp articulated that particularly well in this debate. This amendment, put up by the Government, is important but it should have enjoyed a full submission process and full parliamentary consideration. To bring it into the House under urgency in this way we consider completely unacceptable. Our second objection to this amendment is that we believe the Government is trying to solve a problem that it may well have created itself with KiwiSaver. We believe that the Government has been the author of some very mixed messages that were contained in speeches during the introduction of the KiwiSaver legislation, and that could well have created the concerns the Government is now seeking to address. The third reason we are opposing the amendment is that we currently remain unconvinced that it is necessary, and would go so far as to say that Labour, by moving this amendment, has disadvantaged some of the lowest-income wage earners in New Zealand\u2014the very people whom this Government, heading into an election campaign, would say it is there to advocate for. United Future would have liked the opportunity to see this amendment go before a select committee and to hear the arguments both ways\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64e08cb8d414a87bbab59f4afbd0619\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: And the costings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022161331155ae740e19d94b460649829fd\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the costings, making sure that it was the right way forward. This amendment is not just a little technical change; it is an amendment of substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHowever, we see the overall bill as reflecting family-friendly practices. The Department of Labour has put out a rather interesting document for employers on the issue of breastfeeding and I notice a section called \u201CFrequently asked questions\u201D, which covers some really good points: what it will cost employers to comply and the amount of space they will have to make available, if their employees require breastfeeding considerations. There are some really good answers to questions about potential issues for employees who are M\u0101ori or Pacific, or from a different religious background, in terms of the need to breastfeed discreetly with cultural considerations. There is a section called \u201CIs this good for business?\u201D, which I think is the most relevant question that the department traverses in this document. I want to reinforce the answer given, because I think the benefits to business of having good employment practices and of being family friendly are very clear for business and are very good for employees. It is certainly clear in this day and age, when we have a very different employment environment from even one or two decades ago, that employers need to realise that the benefits of increased productivity, staff retention, and a number of other very tangible benefits of these types of family-friendly policies will be make-or-break issues in terms of the ongoing success of their business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future thinks this provision is long overdue. The Labour member Sue Moroney traversed the issue very well when she talked about the fact that many of us had always understood that breaks were an entitlement that the law covered. We, like others in the House, were quite surprised to discover that this was an area of law that needed strengthening and we certainly support the strengthening of that provision. United Future thinks this bill is timely, but we are disappointed in the Supplementary Order Paper amendment that has gone through today. We will be interested to see how history will judge this amendment and whether it creates its own set of unexpected and unintended consequences that a future Government has to work on and fix, but we certainly want to make it very, very clear that we support the third reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202e99d707f334193b4dc95ad59e4cd2e\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226af30b7aef064e8ea03c885ae2f9cd80\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000188\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 26 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00221daac7b29202405f801db2a4b5663ce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221daac7b29202405f801db2a4b5663ce1\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As I recall, last time when I opened up and had 2 minutes on this bill I talked about why people in New Zealand are far keener on putting their money into property when the move by the Government and other people is to encourage them to put it into shares and businesses. I said that that is because a house or property cannot disappear and turn itself into somebody\u2019s Porsche 911 or something like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis No. 3 amendment bill will go some way towards requiring finance companies to have a credit rating. There is much angst over that in the financial sector, not because of the fact that finance companies should have a credit rating\u2014they are happy enough with that\u2014but, in fact, over how it should be done. People came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and said to us they were worried that a credit rating would have an overly prescriptive nature when it came to administration, and may not give as much credence to the fact that there was a certain amount of asset backing to a particular financial institution; another institution with a lesser asset-backing but with different administration systems could end up with a better credit rating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo there were arguments about how that provision would play out. But, by and large, submitters agreed that the public need more information. They need some sort of a guide as to where to put their money. Only time, we think, can give any surety to the public when it comes to investing funds. But one thing is that we cannot go on as we are, and we have not progressed, it seems, since the late 1980s when we were held up around the world as the Wild West of the financial world. Although the recent credit crunch and finance meltdown have not been that bad, a lot of improvement is certainly needed. This bill goes some way towards that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First would like to go further, and at some time in the next Parliament we will bring legislation to the House that we think will help towards looking after old people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222daa937b98449d1840f920f1148af0d\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Transparency of donations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f839544070ee477ba8f1b229b4c76e86\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I say to Mr Foss; transparency to the nth degree. People can see, going through our trusts at the present time, how everything is kosher there. There is no fraudulent behaviour. There is no corrupt behaviour. There is nothing wrong there. We feel that if we are happy to have all of those transactions open to the public, with the absolute transparency that people are seeing today, other parties in this House should join, for the benefit of the public and to give everybody surety, in opening their trust accounts in the same manner. Whatever the Serious Fraud Office wants of us, we believe that in a non-partisan way, other parties should front up to open their books, thereby giving comfort to the public and the news media, who have been throwing a lot of harsh words around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo we are in favour of transparency. [Interruption] I am pleased to hear the voice of my colleague Dail Jones behind me, because he is the member who has been entrusted with the task of giving some surety to retired people, in particular, as we move forward. I say to Mr Jones that I think he is on that case and we look forward to that in the next Parliament. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c61bea018f643bc89423c0c09f2376d\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa38673badbe4a418db59bddd0edfe97\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: So we can look forward to that\u2014yet another reason, if I may say so, why people will vote for us at the coming election. They will have the surety that they will have something done, unlike if they vote for the National Party, which has thrown stones and done nothing for 9 years. It is even doubtful whether National will be able to do anything post election, because, sadly for those members, they will find themselves back on the Opposition benches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBut I come back to the point that there is need for this legislation. This bill goes some way towards a solution. It is not the total answer. Risks cannot be taken out of financial transactions. Along with this, it is absolutely understood that there is a need for the public of New Zealand to be given more information, as well as a need to look at a credit rating system. This bill goes some way to doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u002253c3d2a103a940588488dd4103c48479\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c3d2a103a940588488dd4103c48479\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. This bill has the primary purpose of implementing regulations for non-bank deposit takers. It is interesting to even consider what is meant by the concept \u201Cnon-bank deposit takers\u201D. It reminds me of a longstanding discussion about the use of the term \u201Cnon-M\u0101ori\u201D, a term that places all the emphasis on what people are not, rather than on what people are. I have always considered it more appropriate for people to define their own identity, their own cultural heritage, whether it be as P\u0101keh\u0101, tauiwi, Scottish, African, or Tongan. So I come to this bill wondering how it is that we are implementing regulations for finance companies, building societies, or credit unions by considering what they are not; in other words, deposit takers not of a bank. This bill, therefore, defines the default position\u2014what these deposit takers are if they are not deposit takers of a bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis bill implements a new framework that will require all deposit takers to comply with minimum prudential standards, as enforced by trustees and the Reserve Bank\u2014standards that in themselves will ensure that care, caution, and regard are taken in providing for the future. We in the M\u0101ori Party can think of no better goal than to legislate for care and caution in the context of investment strategies. Such principles will be welcomed, we know, by the lobby group Exposing Unacceptable Financial Activities. It has been established to stand together in solidarity with the victims of the finance and investment industry collapse. Its very reason for being is to ensure that New Zealanders are given every opportunity to receive information, to apply for legal aid, and to pursue multiple avenues to reach a just resolution for all victims of failed finance companies. So we come to this bill alert to their suffering and wanting to see how this legislation will allow deposit takers to better care for and protect the finances of their investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EExactly how severe this crisis has been on New Zealanders is perhaps best represented through the words of Exposing Unacceptable Financial Activities coordinator Suzanne Edmonds: \u201CInvestors lives are in total despair coupled with economic insecurity, such as losing their homes, while New Zealand sits back watching the games and neglect by those who have a duty of care, slopping around discrediting us all.\u201D The M\u0101ori Party takes very seriously our mission to listen and to hear the voices of the voiceless. We have heard the pain of the people who have taken the fall for the company mismanagement. We have heard the pleas for accountability and the collective stand to insist for compliance enforcement upon the finance industry. We must not overlook the victims of finance collapses, including those of Bridgecorp and Blue Chip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227340126590c440f8b54a9ad3b5817029\u0022\u003EHon Mahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df18679b37d247b1a71c9eda4cc82b7b\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: Cool, bro. The M\u0101ori Party is aware of a number of wh\u0101nau whose quality of life has virtually disappeared overnight\u2014wh\u0101nau who lack the funds to take legal action; wh\u0101nau who have had to sign their homes over in mortgagee sales simply to stay afoot. The headlines may highlight the dollar amounts lost and the fact that 13 firms have failed in the last 18 months owing 61,341 investors $1.5 billion, but what has hit home hardest for us is the real stories of lives hurt by Hanover Finance\u2014victims of money managers who have mismanaged their life savings; stories of real grief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe were interested in the views the Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand expressed to the select committee. It believed that the case for a more prescriptive, heavy-handed prudential regulatory regime for non-bank deposit takers had not been sufficiently made. Its view was that the collapse of finance companies is not sufficient justification, as failures are happening in other jurisdictions that are more regulated than New Zealand. Its view was that such measures should be used only in extreme circumstances where the risk of the market failure and significant harm were relatively high. However, we cannot overlook the fact that since the Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand made its submission in March this year 16 more finance companies have entered into difficulties, with some entering into moratoriums and some going into receivership, and that eight more mortgage trusts or property funds have closed or suspended the repayment of investors\u2019 funds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EPerhaps the more compelling analysis, in our view, was the advice we received from the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities. It contended that regulations to increase prudential standards are urgently needed to tidy up the sector and make it more accountable to its investors. In fact, if anything, they should have been in place a whole lot earlier. We know the reality that a lot of mum and dad investors, including M\u0101ori, have been investing their savings in finance companies without realising the actual nature of the risk that they are exposed to. It is that long lost hope, when our families are struggling to survive, to pin our trust on and have confidence in finance companies to create the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow\u2014a hope that, as the reports remind us, is often not well placed, as these companies do not necessarily have the prudential rules and standards in place to properly protect their investors. The common misconception is that there are standards in place and proper monitoring, but there are not. I commend the advocacy of groups such as Exposing Unacceptable Financial Activities Society, which has so bravely represented the realities of those who may well have otherwise lost hope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe in the M\u0101ori Party will support this bill, as we believe the changes will allow deposit takers to better care for and to protect the finances of their investors. We also support the fact that the changes allow the Reserve Bank to increase its ability to regulate, monitor, and protect the New Zealand finance system and economy. Such attention to the financial infrastructure is, we believe, important for the kotahitanga\u2014the nationhood\u2014of this place, this country of ours. Finally, we want\u2014and I am sure every other member of this House joins me in this\u2014to minimise financial collapses. We have heard the impact the collapses have had on families and on the economy. For all these reasons, we will vote in support of this bill at its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00228f5a5a76dca6453f8d061d70e1ae1e6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f5a5a76dca6453f8d061d70e1ae1e6e\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party is voting for the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). I acknowledge the previous speakers and I will just touch on a couple of points Dr Pita Sharples raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ECurrently there are Acts and legislation to regulate banks. With reference to that word \u201Cbank\u201D, an institution cannot have the word \u201Cbank\u201D in its name unless it is regulated by the Reserve Bank. That is why the other institutions are described as \u201Cnon-bank\u201D, because a completely different tree of regulation is set up\u2014there are trustees involved etc. So that is where \u201Cnon-bank\u201D comes from but I pick up the point that it is funny to be talking about what is not a bank, rather than these financial institutions, as we generally understand them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill is actually part of a suite of bills: there is the Financial Advisers Bill and the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill, which are on the Order Paper and before select committees at the moment. I make the point that many non-bank financial institutions have actually survived, and their depositors\u2019 moneys are quite safe. They obviously followed quite conservative strategies\u2014perhaps there is a bit of luck involved. But unfortunately, and very sadly, some funds have been lost. We are very sympathetic to that, but we also have to distinguish between organisations where illegal or misleading behaviour has been alleged\u2014and I repeat the word \u201Calleged\u201D\u2014and the Serious Fraud Office is currently investigating some of those larger institutions, and institutions that have come to difficulty because of the credit crunch, funding crises, and the inability to raise further funds, so they have had a market difficulty as opposed to alleged dodgy behaviour, which the Serious Fraud Office is looking into at the moment both in New Zealand and in Australia, I understand. I think everyone in this Parliament is very sympathetic and wishes all speed to the Serious Fraud Office and the appropriate agencies to find any dodgy behaviour and arrest and bring those involved to account. Many families and individuals are suffering immensely because of some very, very dodgy behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut there is another point that seems to be lost on many commentators. At the same time as these three bills are going through\u2014the Reserve Bank one here and the other two I just spoke about\u2014there is, of course, the monetary policy inquiry. It seems to have been missed by a lot of commentators that actually they are touching on many of the same issues. In this bill here we talk about capital adequacy, prudential ratios\u2014basically everything that the non-banks influence. They have a part to play, of course, in the financial system\u2014as the monetary policy inquiry is looking at across the sector, I guess at a much more macro level. As we go through the Committee stage I will be talking particularly about some of the technical pieces in there, and I will seek advice on the technical stuff from Mr Doug Woolerton as we go through further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut there is a concern\u2014it comes from here and I raised this concern at select committee\u2014that there is a balance. It is a fine balance, and I am constantly concerned about any politicisation or further influence of monetary policy via some of the methods and tools that are in this bill here, and the confusion of prudential regulation with monetary policy. They are totally different. The moment there is greyness between those areas we are in trouble. If members think our interest rates in New Zealand are high now, I tell them that any removal of that certainty\u2014those Chinese walls\u2014will actually add further to the New Zealand risk premium that we currently suffer under, and which has actually got worse, particularly over the last 9 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIt is all about risk. This legislation sets up a framework for non-bank financial institutions\u2014let us just call them things that are not banks; it is a bit easier\u2014that is about risk. It is about the risk of their funding stream, and the Reserve Bank looking to see whether they are actually too exposed\u2014whether they have lent for 10 years and are borrowing every 3 months. The Reserve Bank will look at that and say that if the tap gets turned off for 3 months the financial institution will be in deep trouble. That is actually the exact problem many institutions are facing right now. It is compounded by the credit crunch that started in the United States and arrived in New Zealand about the middle of last year. But it is accentuated here because our interest rates start so much higher, and there already starts to be a risk premium in New Zealand. Sadly, New Zealand is at the back of the queue when we are lining up, whoever it is from New Zealand, to try to find funding in times of crisis. This is the exact problem that many of those pretty sound institutions are having right now: they have lent for 10 years and borrowed for shorter terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWe can think, way back, to the PSIS problem\u2014in the early 1970s, I think it was\u2014and to the problem JBL had way back then too. It is a common theme: when any of these institutions run into difficulty, it is simply because their funding does not match their obligations on the other side; their liabilities are short term, and their assets are long term. They have borrowed short and lent long and, as interest rates go higher, they have to pay more, they have negative cash-flow, or sometimes that cash flow is turned right off. That is the big problem many of those financial institutions are facing right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAnother point that I raised throughout the period when the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) was before the Finance and Expenditure Committee, was that this issue is about risk, and there has been a merging of all things financial, not only within New Zealand but also around the world. There has to be a level playing field, because if a bank and a non-bank financial institution have the same funding profile, and the same asset and risk profile, the requirements upon them should be the same. Otherwise, the Reserve Bank, or\u2014as a clause in this bill allows\u2014even the Minister of Finance, can start to skew or favour one particular type of organisation over the other, and we do not want to go down that track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIt is really a balance between our need and our want as parliamentarians to provide for the public good a framework to ensure that those who do not fully understand what they may be getting themselves into when they invest in something after seeing some flash advertising programme on TV with celebrity presenters etc., and without really understanding the risks of doing so\u2014there is a tension between that and, at the other end of the spectrum, the principle of caveat emptor, or let the buyer beware. I think we are all pretty much in the middle space there. There are many companies that have\u2014deceptive is not quite the right word, perhaps misleading is the correct word\u2014implied guarantees of people\u2019s funds as they were invested, and in fact those guarantees turned out not to be there once the surface was scratched. This bill starts to address that, and brings, as it states in the introduction, some accountability and transparency back into all things non-bank. I think it is a sign of the maturity of our financial sector that most organisations have come round and are now quite supportive of this bill. The current crisis and the issues people are having regarding non-bank financial institutions are making the bill more pertinent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWe also need to note that there are about only 70 or 80 non-bank financial institutions in total\u2014and that number is declining\u2014and I think they manage about 10 or 15 percent of all funds under management in New Zealand. That is my point: yes, there have been some terrible losses, but our financial system is actually quite sound. Unfortunately, in the case of many of these institutions, the perception of the risk to investors was not understood, was not particularly apparent, or perhaps was somewhere down in the small print. That is not acceptable, I do not think, to anyone in this House or even to the common person out in the street. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs we go through the other parts, I will also speak about this thing called Basel II, which defines how all these capital adequacy ratios are set etc. But it is fair to say that actually there are existing frameworks out there, which banks have used for a long time. Banks also get into trouble, and then they do come right, but there comes a point when a bank gets so big that, of course, the regulator cannot afford to let that institution fail. We have seen that to a massive extent in the case of Northern Rock in the UK, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the United States, and, in fact, in the case of some Australasian banks too, unfortunately, where some larger banks have absorbed some of the minor institutions into their own balance sheet. Although National is voting for the bill, I say that we just have to be careful that an implied underwriting or guarantee by the Reserve Bank or the taxpayer of these non-bank financial institutions is not given. It is a very slippery slope that we go down, once we get into that space. The tensions of the current financial crisis make that quite tempting, and we just have to resist that. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I look forward to speaking through the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec0a112718674bf3920285c31dc9a008\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3ae468dff064735a6273ed7c83967b2\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments outside Part 6 of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00227605e282ba264de3aa27845ee9a56293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227605e282ba264de3aa27845ee9a56293\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call on Part 1. National is supporting this bill as one of a suite of bills designed to shore up some problems that have emerged in recent years. It has been a fairly technical bill. The reality is that as soon as we regulate one sector of the financial system, we create, by definition, an incentive for others to operate outside the rules. This is known as the process of financial disintermediation. I note just in passing, for those readers of the Dominion Post who saw the consequences of this reported on the front page just this morning, that the collapse of some of the second-tier financial institutions we are referring to now has created a space for some fairly dubious new institutions to gain business. That is the reality of this process. It is a cat and mouse game between the regulator and the private sector. In the course of recent years we have discovered that the non-regulated second-tier sector we are addressing here has created some major problems for those involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EPart 1 attempts to put some precision around the definitions of the institutions concerned, the governance structures, and the actual requirements that the regulator\u2014which will be, of course, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand\u2014will expect of these second-tier non-bank financial institutions. In looking at the definitions in Part 1, my colleague Craig Foss has given an excellent overview of this issue, and he has answered some other parliamentarians\u2019 questions about the slightly strange term \u201Cnon-bank\u201D. As my colleague put it, it has a very specific meaning in the law precisely because of the requirements that anyone who wishes to use the term \u201Cbank\u201D must follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI was not privileged to be a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee during this process, but it has put a lot of work into this bill. If members look through the tracked changes in Part 1 they can see\u2014and I take this as just one example of many\u2014the care with which the select committee has sought to define a building society, unless the building society is a registered bank. Then if members look at new section 157, to be inserted by clause 11, they will find that there are consequential amendments in terms of the expected governance regime for that particular type of non-bank deposit taker that take account of the specific characteristics of building societies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI want to draw attention to a couple of other points in Part 1. New section 157F deals with the issue of risk. Parliament is making a bold statement here, which is that eliminating all risk is not part of the deal. That is not an exact quotation, which is in new section 157F(2)(b)(i) and states: \u201Cit is not the purpose of this Part to eliminate all risk in relation to the performance of deposit takers or to limit diversity among deposit takers;\u201D. But we will never overcome the principle that we cannot legislate for common sense. I am sorry, but that is the reality. We are trying to reduce some risk around this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI have always felt that the phrase \u201Ccaveat emptor\u201D was as cold as charity when it comes to this type of issue, given the degree of financial expertise required on the part of any person who wishes to put his or her deposits and savings into an institution of this type. To expect them to be able to undertake on their own behalf the type of assessment of the risk is, I think, a bridge too far. So although I understand the reason for that old phrase \u201Ccaveat emptor\u201D, I think that the reality is that we live in a slightly greyer world than this, and we have had to respond in the manner set out in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI will also focus on the question of the credit ratings, which is also dealt with in Part 1. Clause 11 inserts new Part 5D, and in that part new section 157I sets out definitions of appropriate rating agencies. That provision is perhaps a little more controversial. A bit of a judgment call was required here. There is no question that there is a role for this second-tier financial structure in our community, in spite of the very sad collapse of certain non-bank deposit takers or finance companies in New Zealand over the last 6 months or so. I hope this bill will go some way towards illuminating the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022a741e218a0554627b847ac2655b3f2f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a741e218a0554627b847ac2655b3f2f8\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party to support the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). The bill implements the main elements of the new regulatory framework for non-bank deposit takers. It deals mainly with prudential regulations for non-bank deposit takers. There is a suite of bills currently before Parliament and the Finance and Expenditure Committee, including the Financial Advisers Bill and the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill, which will add to the portfolio of products aimed at hardening up the regulation of non-bank deposit takers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which dealt with the bill, and particularly my colleague from the Hawke\u2019s Bay, Craig Foss, whose experience in matters of banking is excellent and certainly helped us to understand the issues in the bill. I think Craig will be heavily involved in the Financial Advisers Bill as it goes forward, and his contribution needs to be acknowledged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWe are focusing on Part 1. I want to look at a number of clauses within it, starting with clause 8, which deals with policy advice. The clause was amended by the select committee to clarify that the advice that can be requested by the Minister under the regime must be connected with the functions of the Reserve Bank. The advisory function of the bank must not limit the bank in the performance of its primary role. The primary role of the bank is dealing with monetary policy, the official cash rate, and the policy targets agreement. We wanted to clarify that the bank\u2019s additional responsibility to provide advice to the Minister in relation to non-bank deposit takers was secondary to its responsibility for monetary policy. We wanted to make it clear that the bank\u2019s predominant role is, and will always remain, dealing with monetary policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe select committee inserted new clause 8A, to make sure that any information collected from non-bank deposit takers would remain confidential to the Reserve Bank, in the same way that information it collects from the main banks is kept confidential. There were further amendments by way of insertion of new clauses 8B, 8C, and 8D, and they were interesting amendments. Mr Woolerton may recall that, currently, the Governor of the Reserve Bank and the deputy governor cannot have an interest in any banks that operate within New Zealand. We felt it was really important that the governor and the deputy governor not have an involvement, a financial interest, in any non-bank deposit takers, as well, to avoid conflicts of interest that could cause issues down the track\u2014particularly given that the bank is seeking quite detailed information from non-bank deposit takers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe key part of Part 1 is new Part 5D, inserted by clause 11. New Part 5D is a new part of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989. It relates specifically to the regulation of deposit takers. It adjusts the Act to allow the Reserve Bank to deal with non-bank deposit takers. New Part 5D is the substantive part of the bill\u2014a very important part. I want to talk about a number of important provisions in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will talk firstly about the provisions that deal with the definition of deposit takers. That definition is very important. It is vital to defining what type of organisation this bill applies to. Members of the committee heard from a number of submitters who were concerned that they would now have compliance costs accorded to them unnecessarily, because, in fact, they were not in the business of taking deposits from members of the public. We made it clear, through new section 157C, which organisation would and would not fall under this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThere is an interesting point in subsection (4). It allows groups to be excluded from, or included in, the regime by Order in Council. That is a point I wanted to highlight. I also want to highlight what came to be known as the \u201Chire business clause\u201D. The \u201Chire business clause\u201D comes in via subsection (5). It allows the governor the power to exempt\u2014or to include, for that matter\u2014a business, according to the nature of its business activities. The concern from the likes of hire businesses, which take deposits from customers for hire equipment, was that they would be considered deposit takers, when, in fact, the principal reason for their business was to hire out products to consumers on a day-to-day basis. Although they take deposits to prevent the products from being stolen or damaged, their principal business is not being deposit takers. We inserted that provision to make that very clear, and that is good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI want to touch on new section 157I, which insists that deposit takers must have a current credit rating. You see, up until this point in time, non-bank deposit takers have not been required to have a current credit rating, although some do have one. Hanover Finance, I believe, had a BB\u002B rating\u2014which did not prevent that company from falling over. The fact of the matter is that now, under this legislation, non-bank deposit takers that are defined as such must have a credit rating. New section 157I insists that that be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe committee had a look at that, and we put in a new provision to define the principles to be followed by the bank in deciding whether to approve a certain credit agency, so that New Zealanders can have some surety that the credit agencies that are being used to provide these credit ratings have some substance to them. Members will see a range of measures in new section 157J that define the principles to be followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThat is all I want to say on Part 1. I will leave it at that point. Part 1 is the substantive part of the bill. It defines how we are to adopt credit ratings for non-bank deposit takers. It brings non-bank deposit takers under the auspices of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, and I think that is a good thing. That is why the National Party will support Part 1 going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00225160f0de669f48fda3aedb59f51c086b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225160f0de669f48fda3aedb59f51c086b\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Further to what my two colleagues have said, yes, we are speaking on Part 1 of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). I will cover some specifics, and I have some questions I would like to ask of the Minister in the chair, Chris Carter, about these matters. I look forward to his clarifying some of the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe principal Act is the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, and I would particularly like to talk to clause 6, which substitutes a new section 16, \u201CDealing in foreign exchange by Bank\u201D. Clause 7 then talks about foreign reserves. Another bill recently clarified that for the Reserve Bank; I cannot quite remember its correct title. This bill is a clarification, actually, of what the Reserve Bank does, of what it is allowed to do, and of which agents it can use or can use it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut I would be interested to ask the Minister, if the Ministry of Education was ever dealing in foreign exchange, for example, whether it would deal in it via the Reserve Bank or the Debt Management Office, or whether it would deal in it direct, because that perhaps would give us a clue as to some of the efficiencies in the Public Service. There would not be any point in the Ministry of Education buying foreign exchange through a particular trading bank, for example, or the Ministry of Health selling foreign exchange through the same trading bank, because the bank would be the winner there at the end of the day. So I would like the Minister in the chair to clarify that. I imagine he knows about the Ministry of Education; I would like to think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EClauses 8B, 8C, and 8D just provide detail. They talk about the removal of the governor or the deputy governor, and the disqualification of them\u2014that is, they cannot have a vested interest or shares or an equity holding in, or be exposed to, non-bank financial institutions. That obviously makes sense, as suddenly the Reserve Bank will be the regulatory arm for those institutions. That is, I think, identical language to that used to describe what those individuals are able or not able to be or to have in relation to existing banks, which is to be shareholders or to have substantial stakes in those banks\u2014or at least they must declare any stakes that they may have in them. It is quite difficult, in the very thin stock exchange and equity market that we have, for those individuals to not have some investments in those banks, but I am sure the investments are in blind trusts or something like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would ask the Minister in the chair whether he could expand a bit on new section 68B, \u201CBank to have regard to directions about government policy objectives\u201D, inserted by clause 10. My colleague Chris Tremain spoke about this a little. The bill has gone through a few drafts, to be fair, but when it first came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee one interpretation of it\u2014and, again, I alluded to this in my second reading speech\u2014was that there was possible politicisation of monetary policy here. The extreme example of such politicisation was Robert Muldoon and the old reserve asset ratios. If he wanted to pump the economy up in an election year, funnily enough he would change those ratios. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIn fact, what we originally saw here was the ability of the Minister to virtually influence the Reserve Bank, in a bit of a roundabout way, to change the cost of capital to certain institutions. Now, that is totally unacceptable, and I covered the reasons why it is not acceptable in my earlier speech. But if it was an election year\u2014as, for example, it is right now\u2014and the Minister of Finance, in an extreme example, wanted to pump things up, he could have got on the phone to ask for some policy advice from the Reserve Bank governor, and said: \u201CHey, this is a request for policy advice. We think the housing market needs to go up again. What do you think?\u201D. The Reserve Bank governor was obliged to respond to that question, and the Minister of Finance could have given him directions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThings are a lot tighter in this final version of this bill, to be fair. However, I would like the Minister in the chair to answer some of the questions about exactly how that process would work. If possible, I ask him to give us an example of the policy questions that the Minister of Finance may ask the Reserve Bank governor, and to describe the way that that process would work, including the checks and balances in it, with reference also to the banking side of the economy, which is of course the larger one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMany people who are exposed to debt and who have borrowed from the many non-bank institutions are, as a previous speaker alluded to, actually very, very vulnerable. We saw in the Dominion Post today that a little finance company\u2014I think it was in Porirua or Tait\u0101\u2014is advertising interest rates of 8 percent per week. When compounded, that 8 percent actually translates to something like 400 percent per annum\u2014I think, in that example, the paper just used a blind and multiplied 8 by 52, and got a figure of 400-odd percent per annum. The finance company declares the rate per week on its board at the front of its office. The problem is that although the company has actually been up front about its hugely exorbitant interest rates, many people do not see the distinction between the weekly rate and the rate when compounded per annum. That company, because of its exorbitant pricing, and because it is taking advantage of the vulnerable, is up against the Commerce Commission. I also understand that there are some quite extreme collateral obligations around those companies, which, now they have been publicised, will be investigated, I am sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa98006ed704d4992bea75a86cc9854\u0022\u003ETim Groser\u003C/span\u003E: Hopefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b17ac0c4e30433d81851df1d430063e\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, hopefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will now talk to clause 11, which inserts a new Part 5D. I do not know why all this has happened. I guess it was to get the bill through more quickly, with fewer parts to talk about. But there are many new parts of the principal Act in there that I would like to talk to\u2014particularly the credit rating provisions set out in new sections 157I, 157J, and 157K. I would like the Minister to answer a few questions and give us his thoughts on who should be an approved credit rating agency, how they should be reviewed, and what criteria the Reserve Bank would look at when approving them. I would also like the Minister to step up and say whether that means that some existing credit rating institutions in New Zealand should be put out, or at least blacklisted, as some others should come in. As Chris Tremain mentioned earlier, many of the failed institutions did actually have credit ratings, but they were not worth the paper they were written on or the TV ads they were portrayed on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAgain, to be fair, once the select committee went through various drafts of this bill that area was tightened up a lot. It was good practice all round, and I would like to acknowledge the officials here, too. I thank them for all of the work that they have done around this bill and many others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would also like to speak to new section 157L, which is about governance requirements. Many submitters had concerns regarding the cost of compliance to them, and, as I alluded to earlier, there is a danger here that this is seen as an implied guarantee of deposits by the Reserve Bank\u2014a deposit insurance. Another downside is that it is skewed against the smaller financial institutions, which may be quite robust, very conservative, and below the radar, but which now have to front up to all the costs of getting a credit rating, managing the governance requirements, and changing their deed to allow for the capital adequacy ratios, etc. The larger institutions, of course, have a larger back office and plenty of lawyers to do that stuff for them, and they have more depositors to spread the load over. There is a problem here with regard to the smaller ones, and we have to be very careful that we are not skewing the playing field against some quite robust institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs we go through Part 1, I would also like to speak about risk management. As long as institutions declare what they are investing in and that is public and open\u2014that is, it is clear what the risk is\u2014that should be fine for many of these institutions. The problem we have recently seen is that the risks were not put up front. So, yes, this bill provides a framework, and the Reserve Bank will monitor the companies, allowing them to invest in whatever they may like. The legislation is not very prescriptive on that, as long as the risks are declared. That is the balance between full, prescriptive parliamentary regulation and the belief in caveat emptor, which we spoke about earlier, and I think it is a pretty good fit down there. The good point\u2014it is somewhere else in the bill; it might be in another part\u2014is that it will be reviewed in 5 years. That is very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI know many people do not understand the minimum capital requirement. It is quite technical, but here is a simple example. If a bank or one of these institutions wants to lend to a business, it has to have 8 percent of that capital sum allocated and put aside in case there is a default somehow. But if it is lending against a residential home, it has to have only 4 percent of the same amount of capital put aside. When one looks at that, one can understand why many people borrow against their own home in order to fund their business. New Zealand is a nation of small and medium sized enterprises, and many business owners actually put their own home at risk in order to fund their business. One can see why they do that, because the cost of borrowing against their own home is cheaper than if they were to borrow against the cash flows of the business. The monetary inquiry is looking at some of those issues at the moment. Many people approach this the wrong way. The point is that people are taking a risk with their own assets\u2014be it their own home, a second home, or a third home\u2014in order to invest in a business. So those people are taking much more of a risk than their bank, whichever one it may be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c890ec92864b45eab80ec285ce9cd7b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c890ec92864b45eab80ec285ce9cd7b3\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Before I follow on from where Mr Foss left off I would like to say in recognition of Mr Foss that he is an ex-banker with a level of financial literacy far above the norm. I will not speak for any other levels of literacy that the man has, but certainly his financial literacy is far above the norm. The Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) is designed to attend to problems encountered by people with a normal standard of financial literacy, and it is for people who just want to be assured that their money will be looked after. So part of this bill is to enhance the transparency of what goes on, and to ensure, as Mr Foss has been talking about, that some money is put aside if everything goes wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe talk of deposit takers having a risk management programme, and they should tell people in broad terms what they intend to invest in. Mr Foss has covered that. Other parts of the bill deal with governance, and it tries to attend to the sort of thing we have seen recently where finance companies have ostensibly been out there to take deposits from the public and to on-lend them to business people, developers, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe are finding now\u2014and I am sure many people are startled to find this\u2014that in many cases the people who own and run these companies are the very same people who are borrowing, and, in fact, they are developers who have set up a finance company to get money off the public to finance themselves in some of their very risky ventures. In many cases there are not the capital ratios that Mr Foss speaks of, and the people who miss out are the innocent members of the public who think when they put their money in that they are investing for their retirement, that they are helping business in New Zealand, and that they have some backing from financial institutions and some regulations that will ensure the return of their capital plus a return of interest for the risk they have taken. Very few of them look seriously at the risk and, in particular, at the categories of risk that are so familiar to people like Mr Foss and to the people who live in his world\u2014or the one he used to inhabit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI am not saying that with any sense of nastiness. I have a high regard for Mr Foss in his previous occupation. But people are searching for a guide when they are investing. This bill goes some way towards that. We would all like to see it go further, but, as Mr Tremain was talking about\u2014or maybe it was Mr Foss, in his earlier speech\u2014it is a question of balancing the entrepreneurial activity that we require in a free and open economy, and ensuring that there is enough regulation to encourage people to put money into a financial institution in order to encourage the growth and the entrepreneurial activity to take place. Unless both sides of that equation are satisfied we will be starved for capital. In fact, that is what is happening worldwide at the present time\u2014the depositors have taken flight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdddebe346894194ba4bfe10af45ef24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdddebe346894194ba4bfe10af45ef24\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I shall pick up from the earlier speaker, Doug Woolerton, who was starting to talk about scarcity of capital. That is a big problem. The word \u201Ccapital\u201D goes right through here\u2014if one looks at the new section 157R about capital ratio requirement, and even before that it talks about \u201Ccapital\u201D, etc. As I said earlier, it is a very, very scarce commodity. When times are good, there seems to be plenty of it, but as we have recently found out, all around the world, particularly down here in New Zealand where we are at the end of the capital queue, if you like, it is particularly scarce. That is reflected in New Zealand in what we have to pay for our capital, as well as the general state of our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut it is not just capital that the framework in this bill will start to address. It is the definition and the qualification of what a particular asset is. Then one has to apply so much capital to it. It works the other way, actually. So if one has a house, for example, it is bricks and mortar, and a certain amount of capital is required for that, which is 4 percent. If one has a business with a house above it, then all sorts of different ratios start to apply. Because capital is so scarce, many institutions will go to all sorts of lengths to make sure, or to try to make sure at least, that the regulatory body such as the central bank, or Reserve Bank in this instance, agrees with them about the class of that asset\u2014whatever it is\u2014and therefore that is how much capital is required to be stashed away for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIf one takes the house example, one could have a mortgage in Australian dollars\u2014one could have borrowed Australian dollars to fund that house mortgage. So not only is there risk on that house of bricks and mortar, and one\u2019s income to be able to fund the mortgage\u2014one\u2019s income might be in Australian dollars, so one has foreign exchange risk. Or one might have a house in New Zealand, from which one is earning money in Australia, for example, so the bank is exposed not only to the bricks and mortar, and one\u2019s income to fund the mortgage, but also to the exchange rate between Australia and New Zealand, and also to the interest rates of New Zealand and Australia, where someone could borrow there to fund oneself here. Take that to the huge extreme, of course, with Uridashi bonds, with the good old Japanese housewife lending about $120 billion, I think it is, to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis raises a very important point, because we must always remember that New Zealand is a debtor nation, and, sadly, that is one of the reasons we have to pay such high interest rates, which have, incidentally, approximately doubled over the last 9 years. We have to address that and not just assume that we are a creditor nation. It makes one approach many things in another way when one confronts the fact that one owes an awful lot more than one owns or earns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI refer to parts of Part 1, including new section 157S, \u201CDeposit takers and trustees must ensure capital ratio included in trust deed\u201D, and new section 157T, \u201CDeposit taker must maintain capital ratio required to be included in trust deed\u201D; that is all very good, but it does require quite a bit of work for those various institutions. That is countered by the fact that at the Finance and Expenditure Committee we extended time for them to have all that in place to 18 months, which is, obviously, 1\u00BD financial years for most of them. The credit-rating agencies will start to look at their assets to find out how much capital they need, and therefore tell them how much the ratios and what their exposures are, in regard to their trustees and what their allocations are, and the Reserve Bank reassures us that at the end of this quarter it will have at least a starting list of credit-rating agencies. Again, Mr Chair, I alert you to the questions I asked of the Minister in the chair before, around those agencies, and I would like him to consider answering those, and I am sure those listening in would like him to at least consider some reply to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIn my second reading speech I talked about this thing called Basel II. Basel is a place in Switzerland that used to be the centre of the financial universe. Section 157V starts to talk about that as far as non-bank financial institutions are concerned. All banks reference Basel II\u2014there was a I, now there is a II, and there is, in fact, even a further move from II\u2014and its application to non-bank financial institutions is obviously the commonality between financial institutions and the finance sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EInterestingly, Basel II has moved to a point where the Reserve Bank can now accept a bank\u2019s own credit rating and measurement models. So as long as a \u201CFoss Bank\u201D, if you like, rocks along to the Reserve Bank and says: \u201CHere\u2019s my model for measuring my exposures; is this OK?\u201D, and the Reserve Banks says yes, then that means I can have different capital ratios outside of Basel II. I would be interested if the Minister could answer whether they would be extending that same freedom\u2014that throttling or flexibility\u2014to non-bank financial institutions. I cannot recall the answer from select committee hearings and submissions, so I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s opinion on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ETouching on new section 157Y, relating to liquidity requirements, I note it states: \u201CRegulations may impose requirement that liquidity requirements be included in trust deed\u201D, and members can also look at new section 157Z. I presume they are talking about debt ratios, exposure, the 60 percent, 80 percent, or 10 percent leverage\u2014whatever it might be. But again, when the legislation states: \u201CRegulations may impose requirement\u201D we need to know from the Minister in the chair that whatever is required of the institutions, pari passu\u2014meaning all things being equal\u2014for the banking institutions the requirements will be the same, and the cost of capital is not being increased to non-bank deposit-takers. That is my largest fear, because many people rely on such institutions to fund themselves through this increasingly expensive cost of living and increased mortgage rates just to get by. I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFinally, as we wander through the legislation I will talk about confidentiality of information. Again, the committee made good strides, and I thank the officials for helping us with that, because, again, in the early drafts it was open slather. Confidentiality outside of an institution and the regulatory body\u2014the Reserve Bank, in this instance\u2014is absolutely paramount. Of course, every other bank and institution wants to know the exposures of the competitors, but that information is none of their business; they can fight that out amongst themselves in the market place. It is good that it is confidential, and there are some quite good parameters around that, and checks and balances to stop any dubious leaking of information outside what would be necessary in a prudential bill like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI will also talk just a bit further to the offences and penalties. I would like the Minister in the chair to describe some of those in a bit more detail if he could. Earlier I asked about the process around policy advice from the Governor of the Reserve Bank or the Reserve Bank. What happens if one of those parties chooses not to follow that advice? I realise that this particular clause is about the institutions themselves, but what if an institution that is heavily exposed and has a huge amount of deposits chooses not to follow what the Reserve Bank says, because there is a moral hazard there? If a bank or an institution calls the Reserve Bank\u2019s bluff, what happens\u2014if the bank or institution said: \u201CWe have done all we can, we have funded all we can, we just have to taihoa, we have good assets here, we just need to ride this storm out.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker talked about frozen assets. So I ask the Minister in the chair what would happen in that instance. If the Reserve Bank, in that instance, froze a large institution\u2014$100 million in deposits, or whatever it might be\u2014we start to question that, and there could be some systemic problems going down from that, right throughout the financial system. The simple outcome of that is that interest rates will be higher in New Zealand for longer, as they have been, in truth, with this Government here for the last 9 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIncidentally, if this bill had come in in 2000 or 1999, the underlying interest rate that these institutions would have had to deal with would have been 4.5 percent. That was the official cash rate when Dr Cullen became Prime Minister\u2014at least, Minister of Finance; I am getting a bit ahead of myself there\u2014and we have recently seen 8.25 percent. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 225 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3a4177f5d294fe79d98689d6ddea45f\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Part 6 of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00220159964036a14f08896c9cef18494557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220159964036a14f08896c9cef18494557\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate includes the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00228779b1b93c5b4aeba61baa8486fbba9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228779b1b93c5b4aeba61baa8486fbba9f\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very important, substantive part of the bill, but it is very much briefer in its coverage than Part 1 and I think we can deal with it fairly expeditiously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe core of Part 2 relates to the transparency of the Reserve Bank\u2019s reporting obligations, which are set out in very clear language centred on, in particular, the Financial Stability Report and the regulatory impact statements. Although we can safely assume that those reports have a tiny audience, it is an audience of great importance to our country, as it would be in any country, because financial stability rests on having transparency and an information base. Experts in other institutions, such as the international financial institutions the IMF and the OECD\u2014which report, as they should, regularly on monetary policy in New Zealand\u2014as well as overseas investors, domestic investors, and a whole host of companies do actually need to see very clearly the key bits of the information puzzle. So the legislation around this issue, although it is not of general public interest, is certainly of immense importance to the general public, because it is one of the foundation stones of the financial stability of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ELet us not overlook the fact here that in the midst of the really very, very sad tales about people losing their savings in the non-bank financial sector\u2014something we have just discussed at length in relation to Part 1 of this bill\u2014my recollection of the share of total savings in the banking sector, as opposed to the non-bank deposit taker sector, is that the figure is even higher than the one my colleague Mr Foss gave. I am not 100 percent sure, but I believe it is well above 90 percent. But whatever the actual figure is, we have to be grateful for the fact that for the most part, and so far\u2014and I guess we should be touching wood when we say this\u2014the financial stability of this country is pretty sound. We are tidying up areas here, we are strengthening areas here in the non-bank deposit taker sector, and we are strengthening the transparency procedures that underlie the whole system. But the fact remains that despite the concern that our banking sector is dominated by Australia, I think one would have a hard job to persuade New Zealanders who had just lost their money in a New Zealand financial institution that somehow they were better off, because they had lost their money in a New Zealand institution, than the people whose assets were being protected in an Australian-owned bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EPart 2 is very, very technical. If we look briefly into the language used in Part 2, we see there is a requirement that the Reserve Bank report on all matters relating to the soundness and efficiency of the financial system, and on other matters associated with the bank\u2019s overall prudential responsibilities. I know that those bank reports are pored over by highly technical people, and their assessments of the information contained in them are absolutely critical for the whole operation of our economic system. So the National Party is pleased to be supporting this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe also note the changes that have been made in respect of the Reserve Bank\u2019s dividend. Obviously, the bank is in a highly privileged position as the sole issuer of currency. It makes seigniorage from that operation. In fact, if members go back through time they will find that throughout earlier parts of our antecedent political history that was a traditional source of financing for Governments before the invention of direct income tax. Seigniorage is an ancient form of revenue for the Crown, and the principles are now set out even more clearly, to determine what the appropriate dividend to the Crown is. I think that matter is extremely uncontroversial, and we welcome the slight clarification of it. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5613f3a73ff4748961b505e55953783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5613f3a73ff4748961b505e55953783\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call on Part 2. Like my colleague Tim Groser, I can move through this part expeditiously. Part 2 has two key parts: firstly, it deals with the determination of the Reserve Bank\u2019s annual dividend back to the Crown; and, secondly, it deals with the timing of financial stability reports and the importance of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn terms of the first part, which deals with the bank\u2019s annual dividend, at present the bank calculates the dividend in accordance with a legislative formula. I take this opportunity to say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Shane Jones, that given his financial background and the time he spent as chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I am quite keen for him to take a call to give us a feel for what that legislative formula entails, so that we can learn a little bit more about it. I ask the Minister in the chair to seek a call so that he can define how the Reserve Bank calculates its dividend in accordance with a legislative formula.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe formula-based determination does not always reflect changes to the bank\u2019s balance sheet, market, and accounting, and in recent years it has not accurately reflected the amount that should be available for distribution back to the Crown. The committee has changed the provision to make it clearer. The amendments we recommend would allow the bank to determine the principles\u2014which must be published in its statement of intent\u2014upon which it would recommend the dividend. That is quite a change. The bank will have to define how that dividend will flow back to the Crown, and it will have to consider how its own balance sheet has changed because of the impact of the financial markets on it, rather than the dividend just being calculated in accordance with a formula\u2014which I am hoping the Minister will take some time to define for us before we close off the debate on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d818bad74ad14131a34808edf3f4880a\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Shane will sort it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342e039662574ec9b2829835759ed2c9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am just acknowledging that the previous chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee is a wise member of the House. I look forward to his call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe second part of Part 2, which I will briefly touch on, is new section 165A, in clause 19. It deals with the financial stability reports and the timing of those reports. We have allowed more flexibility around the timing of them. Previously, they had to come out every 6 months, on a specific date. The section has been changed to state that \u201CThe Bank must, not less than twice in every calendar year,\u201D publish one of these reports. They are critical reports. They are used by many financial organisations around the world to consider the state of the New Zealand economy; the likes of the OECD and various global financial credit agencies look at them in detail. Making sure that the reports come out in a timely fashion is important for our wider financial credit ratings, and I guess that it is important in relation to our OECD rankings, as well. That particular amendment is a small change, but it takes us forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThat is the end of my speech on Part 2 of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). Thank you for the opportunity to speak, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002218bf82a7403a4aa991839683435f5db8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218bf82a7403a4aa991839683435f5db8\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I wonder whether we could give the Minister in the chair, the Hon Shane Jones, a copy of the Hansard for this debate, so that he could address the questions we asked the previous Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c1bf677f25401cb6a4577d5b9b304c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Craig Foss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00228ca4b959b9ff416e9c8cf497f4177d9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ca4b959b9ff416e9c8cf497f4177d9d\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E It was worth a try! Speaking to Part 2\u2014and, yes, I have spoken a fair bit on this part; I was on a bit of a roll before\u2014I note that Mr Tremain alluded to the dividend that the Reserve Bank pays, and also to the statement of intent that it has to produce. Mr Tremain started to describe how the dividend payment will be changed, and that is all very fine, but the size of the dividend depends on whether there is an excess of revenue over expenditure\u2014I was going to say \u201Cprofitability\u201D, but that would not be right in the Reserve Bank\u2019s case. Hopefully, it is positive. That drives what the bank pays back to the Crown. It will be interesting to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Shane Jones, whether there is a charge on the capital that the Reserve Bank has. The Reserve Bank will now have $2 billion of taxpayers\u2019 capital tied up in order for it to manage and run its operations. A hospital or district health board, for example, has to pay a charge of between 7 and 10 percent on the use of capital. I would be very interested to hear the point of view of the Minister in the chair on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EIn the recent Budget $600 million extra of taxpayers\u2019 capital was allocated to the Reserve Bank to enable it to carry out its operations. I was quite concerned about that. Many people were not aware of it. It has had some publicity now, and the Reserve Bank has explained to the public why it needed that amount. But it is worth noting, because there has not really been a debate on it, that $2 billion of capital is now allocated to the Reserve Bank. That is capital that cannot be used to help fund infrastructure\u2014to help pay for hospitals, schools, etc. That money is tied up with the Reserve Bank, and at risk. I freely admit that it is very conservative with that capital, and one would expect it to be. However, I am somewhat concerned that we have not had a public debate about the matter. The outcome of that debate may be that, yes, it is absolutely fine, but it did seem to slip below the radar. If the Reserve Bank lost some funds in the course of its operations, be it through bonds that it has invested in, be it through foreign exchange that it is engaged in, or be it through the money supply that is out there, that capital would start to be eaten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe Reserve Bank was given $600 million because its bond portfolio was massively under water when it marked to market. All Government accounts now have to be produced under the International Financial Reporting Standards, so the bank had to put that money up as if it were for sale. The difference in respect of the money it spent to buy all those Government bonds versus the value of those Government bonds today is a huge negative hit to the taxpayer. The Reserve Bank argues, and fair enough, that it holds those bonds until maturity, so it will always achieve the principal\u2014assuming that the Government is still in place, and let us hope a Government is in place to do that. That is fair enough, but this issue should have been considered when the International Financial Reporting Standards were adopted for all public accounts in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMembers will note that even the Auditor-General has raised serious questions about the application of mark-to-market valuations to public sector accounts, and that is a typical example of the problem. Landcorp is very open about its problems with it, but we can take it right down to the level of our local councils, which have huge issues with it, because it imposes a huge compliance cost upon them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ERegardless of how the dividend is structured and calculated, the amount depends on the operations of the Reserve Bank and what is at risk. Given the pressure that non-bank financial institutions will be under because of this legislation, the Reserve Bank should put itself under the same framework. The fact that it needed much more capital to fund its operation, because of an accounting change, shows that it was undercapitalised from the start. I know that the Reserve Bank has assured us that its prudential ratios are very, very conservative and absolutely fine\u2014we all know that\u2014but $600 million suddenly disappeared from the Crown bank account to it, to allow it to continue its operation and to expand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWe also know that the Reserve Bank has a short New Zealand dollar position of $4.2 billion\u2014$4.2 billion in foreign exchange. I know why it is doing that, and that is absolutely fine, but does New Zealand understand what is at risk? That is a debate we need to have. I am not saying it is wrong and I am not saying it is right, but we have had big discussions about the purchase of New Zealand Rail\u2014$650 million, and counting\u2014yet $600 million was parked with the Reserve Bank and there was hardly a whisper, apart from two articles in the National Business Review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to take issue with the changes to the Act in terms of the statement of intent. The intent of the Reserve Bank, as most people understand it, is to keep inflation between the 1 and 3 percent band. Actually, that is not its intent, at all. The public needs to understand that the job of the Governor of the Reserve Bank now is to ensure that forecast inflation is between 1 and 3 percent over the next term, which is basically 3 years. The effect of that has been to have forecast inflation of 3 percent, rather than inflation being capped at between 1 and 3 percent, which is what most people understand to be the case. Yes, that might sound a bit boring and technical, but it has huge ramifications. It creates uncertainty, because when we calculate the value of something in 10 years\u2019 time\u2014infrastructure investment, for example\u2014the higher inflation and interest rates are, then the less viable that investment is. That is why we need certainty that inflation outcomes will come within the band, which is what has been agreed at the moment. High inflation is devastating. If we look at the interest rate curve in New Zealand, and at the viability of many projects, we see that they do not work, and that is the core reason why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would like to have another read of the statement of intent of the Reserve Bank, to measure its outcomes versus its intent, because inflation has been outside the 1 to 3 percent band many times over the last 2 years, and it is forecast to be outside it for at least the next 12 to 18 months. That is devastating for New Zealand. It is devastating for our older folk who have funds invested, because inflation eats financial savings. It is devastating for the first-home buyer, who is trying to get ahead but has to borrow at an interest rate of 8 or 9 percent to obtain a mortgage. That is why it is devastating, that is why we need to be totally vigilant, and that is why the provisions in this bill need to be comparable with the regulations and supervisory commitments of the rest of the banking sector. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d0b0ed2fac841d7ace2b2553db8b759\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000298\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 225 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000299\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000300\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f613b0ff0454af0ae7d231aeb00bf8d\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022f331774688c841228813c7a54277b8fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f331774688c841228813c7a54277b8fd\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call, given that we have covered most of the issues in the debate on Parts 1 and 2. I shall refer to the commencement date, which is part of the three clauses we are debating. The commencement dates of many of the bills we are involved in are fairly superfluous, but in this case the commencement date is very important. From the way that the bill was written, these prudential changes would have been immediately imposed on a raft of non-bank deposit takers\u2014depending on the definition. The Finance and Expenditure Committee in its wisdom sat back and saw that a heck of a lot of information would need to be churned through and provided to the Reserve Bank; a lot of detail is involved, even in terms of the definition of which organisations fall under the auspices of the Act, and which do not. So the commencement date was moved out by 18 months, to make sure that the organisations that fall under this regime have time to find out exactly what they need to do to meet the requirements of the bill. This is a short call just to say that the select committee gave due consideration to making sure that the organisations captured by the bill have time to come to grips with what is required, to provide the necessary information, and to do so in a way that reduces their compliance costs. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f07a1643ad8847ebb41deed6056cd3c8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00228f0538341e224c30adc25e38ca428ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f0538341e224c30adc25e38ca428ebb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Building and Construction)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. E te m\u0101t\u0101mua e Winitana, kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and to all of us. Greetings to you, Winston, the elder statesman.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes a framework for the regulation of non-bank deposit takers, with the aim of promoting a sound and an efficient financial system. The bill will do this by establishing prudential standards and providing depositors with a clearer basis for distinguishing between lower risk and higher risk entities. The House has already spent quite some time on this bill this morning, so I do not plan to go back over ground that has been well traversed. However, I think it is important to note that this legislation is a significant step forward and should provide more confidence in a sector that has faced a number of challenges over the last year or so. It complements some important work that is being undertaken by the Minister of Commerce, the Hon Lianne Dalziel. This is important legislation, which has broad support from the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00221536642f272a420c92cf1360f67d5052\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221536642f272a420c92cf1360f67d5052\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In the course of the discussion around the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) over the last few months, one of New Zealand\u2019s experts suggested to me that the position of the Reserve Bank is a little like that of a parking attendant who has a closed circuit television trained on a number of different levels in a parking building, and whose responsibility it is to make sure that everything is tidy and safe. From time to time the regulator\u2014in that case, the parking attendant\u2014will look through and see something slightly dodgy going on at one level of the parking building, which justifies his or her zeroing in and trying to respond in a policy sense to it. Most of the time, it is a sort of cat-and-mouse game. I think the cat wins most of the time, but occasionally the mouse may win. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThat is an elaborate way of describing the process that goes on in any financial system. The Government of the day will regulate one part of the financial system, thereby putting into place, almost automatically, an incentive on the part of other operators to try to lower their costs by getting around the regulatory frameworks that the Government has just created and creating a new niche in the market. So we have a situation here in which we have, I think, a very sound regulatory framework for the banking sector of New Zealand, as defined very precisely in New Zealand law, and any institution that wishes to carry the title \u201Cbank\u201D in its name, as my colleague Mr Foss pointed out during the various stages of this bill, has a legislative requirement to conform to the very technical and demanding provisions relating to banks. But, by definition, we have created in the past an incentive structure for a non-bank deposit taker sector to emerge, and it is now quite apparent that the light regulatory frameworks that have governed that sector are inadequate. The cat is catching up with the mice again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EUnfortunately I am quite confident that a future Parliament, at some stage, will have to do exactly the same tidying-up effort as this one. As soon as one loophole is closed, by definition that opens the opportunity to game the system and create the opportunity for new loopholes. However, that is the nature of the process, and in this bill Parliament is solidly behind the effort to try to improve the non-bank financial sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe reasons for that, I think, have been well traversed. Amongst the many things that make up a sound society, the rule of law, property rights, an independent press, and a sound financial system are clearly of central importance to a well-functioning society. We have learnt, of course, about the importance of the financial system from Adam Smith onwards. He said that when two or three merchants gather together, it is usually for the purpose of deceiving the public, so the very founder of the whole free-market philosophy still accepted that a free market needed to have appropriate regulatory frameworks put around it. There is no more important sector than the bank and the non-bank financial sector in which to ensure that we do have an appropriate regulatory framework. Unfortunately, I suspect that we will not ever overcome the old saying that a fool is very quickly parted from his or her money, but we at least can minimise some of the risk around that through appropriate regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have here in the bill, I think, a pretty sound framework. My understanding is that the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I was not part of its process\u2014has had access to some excellent international-quality advice, and I think that the end result will ensure that as we move now to regulate beyond the first tier of the financial sector, the banking sector, into the second tier, we have a structure that will provide a robust framework, looking forward. Obviously, we are looking at only the major institutions here in the sector. There is a licensing threshold\u2014from memory, it is around $10 million\u2014that an institution has to meet before this quite demanding framework comes into play. And then, as we have discussed in the various stages of the bill, there are minimum capital adequacy ratios and governance requirements that need to be met. Quite a lot of bespoke engineering has been going on in this bill\u2014for example, in respect of building societies. It is carefully defined in the bill that building societies are not themselves operator banks. There are quite specific governance structures that reflect the reality of a building society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have had a very serious look at the two opposing sides of the argument in respect of credit ratings. On the one hand I think there has been widespread recognition amongst members that credit ratings are not a panacea. My colleague Chris Tremain pointed out that the most recently collapsed firm, I think, Hanover Finance, was one of the non-bank deposit takers that had actually found it in its own interest to go out and get a credit rating. But that did not stop Hanover Finance falling over. I think members have been aware that, in reality, there is a bit of a moral hazard around that issue. The public may interpret it that if a company has an international credit rating under the provisions of this legislation, that somehow takes risk out of the equation. Well, the bill has done what it can\u2014quite explicitly, in fact, in its principles\u2014to make it clear that that is not the intent of the bill. The legislation probably will be misread at some future point, but the House has done what it can to lay down the realities. At the end of the day we are into risk minimisation, not risk elimination, on this issue. So on balance, although there was a strong argument against credit ratings, the bill has come out in favour of them for the non-bank financial deposit taking sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThere is a whole series of provisions around financial disclosure, including some provisions we have just debated in respect of the bank\u2019s own legislative requirements and in respect of its supervisory role, in terms of putting information before a narrow group, a group of international and domestic experts, who do need access to information of a highly technical nature in order to make an informed judgment about the soundness of the system. I am sure that the improved reporting procedure across various aspects of the bank\u2019s responsibilities will further enhance the financial stability of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ETo sum up by referring to the bigger picture, I think we all understand that although this bill is deeply technical, the soundness of the financial system is of central importance to this country. We have taken a beating in the non-bank financial sector recently, but the majority of New Zealanders have had the protection of a very sound system, which is one of the world\u2019s best systems. It has been put under pressure, obviously, as the effects of the subprime crisis have worked their way through the system. I think there are some improvements here. I am sure this is not the last word, for the incentive reasons I have tried to explain. The process of financial disintermediation is an ongoing process, and we will have to deal with it again. But I do think New Zealanders should be confident that we are going in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9f4ec06cf60447f9f3144b419ea1f32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9f4ec06cf60447f9f3144b419ea1f32\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First wholeheartedly supports the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) and its intentions. To follow on from Mr Groser, I say that we absolutely support the free market, even though we sometimes criticise aspects of it. We recognise that regulation is needed to give confidence, because this bill, apart from anything else, is about confidence. If we have a situation where those with the money are reluctant to lend it on to those who need it, then that will stifle business and stifle the growth of this country. This bill will ensure that that does not happen, by putting in place some light regulations around that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESpeaking personally, I am one of those who are criticised in this country. My family, coming from farming stock, like to be able to see, touch, and walk over their assets rather than have somebody look after them. We have a stockbroker in the family by marriage, and he is far wealthier than the rest of us, so maybe that proves something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think that credit ratings for the non-banking sector, which this bill brings into play, are important. I am in agreement with Mr Groser that it would be wrong for that sector to give the general public the idea that there was no risk and that they could rely absolutely on those ratings. However, it is another step forward in terms of supplying more information to the public. We applaud that and think it is long overdue. If we have a situation where confidence goes down the tubes, we will have a country that forever has a stop-start economy. We would not like to see that happen. One of the previous speakers spoke about this aspect of the financial sector being mainly New Zealand - owned. I just want to say that we should not take anything from that, apart from the fact that there has been less regulation in this area than in others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First looks forward to the day when more banks, as opposed to the second tier of financial institutions, are owned by New Zealanders. We would like to see our first tier of banking institutions owned by New Zealanders, and we believe they could run them with aplomb, dignity, and absolute surety, just as they do with Kiwibank and the Taranaki savings bank. The banks can make sure their depositors do not lose out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is keen to see the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) progress, so I will not take up any more time of the House. I say again that New Zealand First enthusiastically supports the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7491f3293544b20bd7ddea2b6bc084b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7491f3293544b20bd7ddea2b6bc084b\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3) for the last time. We are up to the third reading, and I have already covered many of the points that I and my party have been concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the previous speakers; I think we are pretty much all on the same page. The bill is quite technical. It is about my field\u2014finance. The bill says a lot about the need for many New Zealanders, or for New Zealand per se, to have a better understanding of all things financial. We have our house and we have our income, but sometimes some of the biggest risks we take are financial risks, and many of us are not fully aware of the underlying risks we take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFor example, we see advertisements for investments over 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, etc., and underneath we see the word \u201CTerms\u201D. Those terms may state that the deposit is guaranteed by first debenture, or guaranteed by so-and-so, or has a triple B rating from some outfit we have never heard of. If we are not in the finance sector, or if we do not have an awareness of it, then it all sounds legitimate, but it is quite deceptive. That is one of the reasons why the National Party is voting for this bill and for the other bills I alluded to earlier\u2014the Financial Advisers Bill and the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Bill. When the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the inquiry into monetary policy comes out, I am sure we will see a familiar theme along those lines\u2014from the National Party, at least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI point out that if, for example, a non-bank financial institution states that it is taking deposits and that they are guaranteed by person B, that sounds great to a lot of people, but it all depends on the integrity of person B. Effectively, the depositor is lending money to person B, not to the headline institution with the nice, flashy brochure that is doing a roadshow around town. Once these prudential declarations have come out and the frameworks are in place, and after the initial hiccup or two that is bound to happen, then, at least, what is at risk\u2014a very important term\u2014will be exposed to daylight. There is nothing like a bit of daylight, particularly in relation to finance, to make sure everything is clean and certain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI reiterate what I said earlier: the mission of this bill, which, I think, Mr Groser alluded to, is not to take away risk but to declare fairly and transparently the actual risk being taken by, first, the depositor and, second, the institution taking the deposits. This bill is not retrospective, by the way, so, unfortunately, many of the difficulties we are having with many finance companies will not be fixed by it, but, hopefully, at least it will provide a platform and a framework that will decrease the number of such events in the future. It would be very naive to say we will not see a repeat of those failures in the future. It is very important that what is called the \u201Cfunding risk\u201D is transparent. As I said earlier, the Serious Fraud Office and other agencies, with all their powers, are looking at some of the institutions that have allegedly misled depositors\u2014the public. Under this legislation, some of the related-party transactions would have come out in the wash, in the various declarations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESome institutions have failed because of dubious behaviour, which the authorities are looking into\u2014and all speed to them, and I hope those people who have misled the public get their comeuppance\u2014but other institutions are suffering because of the scarcity of capital, the scarcity of committed funding against whatever assets they have. In fact, some institutions have frozen funds in order to secure their assets. Interestingly, some institutions have frozen only withdrawals in excess of a million dollars. They have got a bit of grief for doing that, but they are trying to protect their smaller depositors, because the larger institutions that have on-deposited to them, if you like, have moneys in excess of a million dollars. The result is the small investors are quite OK and can withdraw funds. Those institutions argue that the asset\u2014the building, the apartment block, or whatever it is\u2014will still be there in 5 or 10 years\u2019 time, and they just need to taihoa and to get themselves through this trough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThat does not mean much to someone who is suffering at the moment, but my point is those institutions have a funding issue and a funding crisis, and that would have been apparent and would have been declared under the capital ratios that this bill brings out. As long as it is declared and is apparent to everyone, then there is no problem at all. I think most parties would agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe legislation has been tidied up a lot on its way through the House. My main concern has been the various holes in the legislation. The extreme, almost absurd, example in earlier drafts of the bill was the possible politicisation of monetary policy in New Zealand in so far as non-bank financial deposit takers are concerned. As we spoke about earlier, the people who borrow a lot of funding off these institutions are very, very vulnerable. They will be looking for somewhere to get credit. That is one point, and the select committee\u2019s inquiry into monetary policy may come up with a similar theme. Hopefully, that report is not too far away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOne thing that was not mentioned in the Committee stage was an obvious change that the Finance and Expenditure Committee made to the definition of \u201Cdeposit taker\u201D. The commentary on the bill states that the committee recommended that the \u201Cdefinition be extended so that a person who had offered debt securities to the public that remained unpaid could be subject to the regime.\u201D That was a very important point. If an institution advertised for investments, and if something untoward happened to it between someone committing to send a deposit to it and the funds actually arriving, under the bill as originally drafted only funds that had already arrived would have been looked after. Of course, we are talking about intent here, and if there is an intent to mislead or not show as much information as an institution should in order to be fair and transparent, then I say well done to the committee and the officials for picking that up, and for many of the other improvements to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI spoke before at length about the various capital adequacy bits and pieces, and I also alluded to my interest in the Reserve Bank\u2019s own books and balance sheets. It is quite interesting, in that it is very difficult to go and look at the Reserve Bank\u2019s books. We cannot go via the Auditor-General; there has to be an independent auditor, and we have to go via that organisation. That is an interesting challenge for us; I am spending a bit of time on working out how to get that one put before various committees, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFinally, I acknowledge the various speakers and the Minister in charge of this bill and the other two bills that the National Party is voting for. The bills set up a more transparent, viable framework. They are good for New Zealand, but we have to make sure that we are not skewing the system in favour of, or disfavouring, one part of the sector. There is an internationalised, global financial system. New Zealand gets its capital, its funds, from elsewhere, from outside our borders. We do not fund domestically, so we should say thanks to the Japanese housewife, etc. So we have to make sure that whatever we do in this bill, and whatever we do prudentially and in and around our central bank, does not politicise in any way the operation of our regulatory body\u2014our central bank\u2014and does not put us out of step with the other partners and parties we deal with around the globe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have enjoyed speaking on this bill, and I thank the earlier speakers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u002279d91c0320e244acb25ece0f6914bbf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279d91c0320e244acb25ece0f6914bbf6\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a short call on the third reading of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). This bill establishes a framework for the regulation of non-bank deposit takers, with the aim of promoting a sound and efficient financial system. The bill also promotes a sound and efficient financial sector in which the public has confidence. It will increase the public\u2019s confidence in the professionalism and the integrity of the advisers, so it is very timely from that perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of the largest-ever reform of the non-bank finance sector, and it has been conducted with wide input from, and the support of, that industry. It also promotes the development of a more consistent regulatory framework for financial services, and coupled with the advent of KiwiSaver it will promote a stronger savings culture and encourage greater levels of investment. This issue was well traversed with the previous bill passed by the House, the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. We want to ensure that we shift from the credit card - type culture that has developed here in New Zealand to a stronger savings culture, and this bill will aid and abet that process. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00227205f11d89c64f96b7a21b7cb7c54167\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227205f11d89c64f96b7a21b7cb7c54167\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E National will be supporting the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3). In the Committee stage debate on Part 2 we discussed the financial stability reports and some changes around them. It is on that note that I wish to start my debate in the third reading, and refer to page 30 of the financial stability report presented in May 2008 that lists the financial companies that have gone into receivership in the last couple of years. The total number of financial companies in receivership or in moratorium relates to $1.925 billion in deposited funds. That is a significant amount of this country\u2019s money, earned by hard-working Kiwis. The companies in the $100 million - plus category are Provincial Finance, $300 million; Bridgecorp, $459 million; Nathans Finance, $149 million; Capital \u002B Merchant Finance, $187 million; Lombard Group, $127 million; Geneva Finance, $141 million; and MFS Boston, $319 million. All in all, these total $1.295 billion. That is justifiable reason to be standing here debating this legislation today and taking it through its third reading, and that is why National supports the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe bill does not cover all the companies that have gone into receivership or into moratorium during the credit crisis that has been in place. There are companies like Blue Chip New Zealand, property investment development companies, that many New Zealanders have suffered at the hands of. I can talk only about my own electorate of Napier, where a number of people who have come into my office had invested money with Blue Chip and bought not just one but two investment apartments, using their home as security. Unfortunately, they will lose their home as a result of that investment decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThis legislation will not fix that, but it will add some more prudential supervision to those second-tier finance companies. Although the bill will not fix it entirely, hopefully it will provide a high level of scrutiny and more security to New Zealand investors in those second-tier companies. If we go back 2 years and look at the balance sheets of those companies, most of them were in pretty good shape then. The problem was that when the credit crunch came, many people got the jitters. These companies had borrowed from depositors, short term, and had lent long term, and all of a sudden the investors wanted to withdraw their funds from these companies. They were faced with not having the strength in their balance sheets to be able to sustain a run on their funds, and that put them into a difficult position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EAlthough the prudential requirements from the Reserve Bank that will be implemented by this bill may improve the balance sheet requirements, in a credit crunch there will still be times when it will be difficult for these companies to stop a run on their funds, so I do not see how we can overcome that problem in all situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a new regulatory framework for non-bank deposit takers. I have canvassed that during the Committee stage today and I will not go into it in any more detail than is necessary. I just want to say that although the bill does add a higher level of prudential requirement to second-tier deposit takers, it will not solve all the problems in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EUnder the new arrangements, the Reserve Bank\u2019s role will be to license deposit takers, to develop and enforce minimum prudential and governance requirements, and to apply credit-rating requirements. Trustee corporations will continue to be the front-line supervisors of deposit takers. There will always be a risk in any investment, and it is important that that is understood by all consumers. Take, for instance, Bridgecorp with a credit rating of BB\u002B. This business, to all intents and purposes, had an investment rating, yet it still went into receivership. Although we will introduce credit ratings across the second-tier financial sector, it will be important that a strong education programme follows so that consumers out there understand, firstly, what the credit ratings mean, and, secondly, that a credit rating does not guarantee that their funds will be safe 100 percent of the time; they need to understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThis new bill is, however, a means by which New Zealand can add more checks and balances on non-bank deposit takers to provide depositors with another level of security. I will say, lastly, that this will not reduce or remove all risk from the equation. There will always still be a risk at this level, and that must be taken into account at all times. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206c2c02e211c44c992a97994a218e6ba\u0022\u003ESubordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002283f9d02de2b347c9b23e7d4cdd2d1c58\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc5288053cf24898ba434f503134ea3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc5288053cf24898ba434f503134ea3e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4) be now read a first time. At the conclusion of the first reading debate I will move that the bill be referred to the Regulations Review Committee, where I am sure, under the estimable leadership of Dr Richard Worth, the committee will deal expeditiously with the bill and return it to the House. This bill of course must pass before the end of the year, not before the election, in order to avoid certain rather nasty consequences for large numbers of people, including New Zealand superannuitants. This is a routine annual bill to confirm and validate items of subordinate legislation that, in accordance with the confirmation and validation provisions in the Acts under which the various instruments are made, lapse at stated times, unless earlier confirmed or validated by Act of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis year the bill provides for Parliament to confirm, or validate and confirm, 14 Orders in Council made under 10 Acts. Two apply movements in the CPI to the rates of social security benefits, New Zealand superannuation, and war pensions. There are four under the Customs and Excise Act 1996, and two of those apply movements in the CPI to rates of excise and excise-equivalent duties on alcohol and tobacco products. The other two prohibit the importation of trout and trout products, and prohibit the export of cattle, deer, goats, or sheep for slaughter, except with the consent of the Director-General of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ETwo orders under the Tariff Act 1988 amend the Tariff concession reference No. 80. This concession covers the importation of passengers\u2019 baggage and effects that are not intended for gift, sale, or exchange. Two of the orders deal with commodity levies, which of course go through a process with the industries involved. Regulations made under the Animal Products Act 1999 increase total revenue for verification services provided by the verification agency, and cap the new verification agency disestablishment charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAn order made under the Civil Aviation Act 1990 increases the annual levy to be paid to the Civil Aviation Authority by the Airways Corporation, MetService, and specified aerodromes to fund the aeronautical information service. An order amends the schedule of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002, which lists enactments that are excluded from the application of Part 3 of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe final order to be confirmed is made under the Road User Charges Act 1977, and increases from 1 July certain rates of road-user charges. This is to ensure that operators of diesel vehicles contribute more equitably to the funding of land transport activities, once all petrol excise duty is directed to the National Land Transport Fund. Effectively, we are now moving to a fully hypothecated system of excise duty on petrol, with all the money going into the National Land Transport Fund. Of course, it is therefore necessary to adjust the road-user charge system to make sure that those who are using diesel vehicles and paying road-user charges are treated equitably\u2014or, more precisely, that those with petrol vehicles are treated equitably in relation to those who have diesel vehicles and are paying road-user charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00223aba8cb0bc104b3f96031f775a1bf38e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223aba8cb0bc104b3f96031f775a1bf38e\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker, Dr Michael Cullen, succinctly outlined the scope of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4), and, as he said, it is to go to the Regulations Review Committee. It is limited at this part of the urgency debate simply to the first reading. The plan of action is that it will go to the Regulations Review Committee, which will meet next Wednesday and come to a view on whether these particular delegated provisions should be confirmed and validated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are perhaps a couple of points to be made in the context of a first reading speech. First, the purpose of the bill is to confirm and validate certain subordinate legislation that, in accordance with confirmation and validation provisions in the Acts under which it is made, lapse at a stated time unless confirmed or validated by Act of Parliament. So\u2014if one likes to put it this way\u2014there are a whole lot of sunset provisions in these delegated provisions, which require for continued life a further parliamentary step. If one looks through the bill itself one sees that in some cases the subordinate legislation is to be confirmed and in other cases it is to be confirmed and validated. Nothing really turns on that; it simply relates to the empowering provision in the statute requiring validation or confirmation and validation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe step of confirmation and validation does not itself cure any invalidity in those particular provisions. As the previous speaker said, a raft of statutes and associated delegated legislation is affected: the Animal Products Act, the Civil Aviation Act, the Commodity Levies Act, the Customs and Excise Act, the Electronic Transactions Act, and so on. I thought I would just take as an example, to illustrate the process, one such Act and its related subordinate legislation. I have chosen the Civil Aviation Act 1990. It is interesting, actually, to see that the dates of all of these pieces of primary legislation are all now of an age\u2014the latest would be 1999. So it seems that this drafting technique may not be in favour as much as it used to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut just, for example, looking at the illustration I have chosen\u2014the Civil Aviation Act\u2014one sees, in section 42A and the later provisions that follow, a power given to the Governor-General to impose levies. The levies may be in respect of a range of aeronautical activity and services. But under section 42C there is provision for \u201CLevy orders to be confirmed\u201D. That is what we are talking about here. Under section 42C(2), \u201CEvery such Order in Council shall\u201D expire at a fixed date \u201Cexcept so far as it is expressly validated or confirmed by Act of Parliament passed during that year;\u201D. That is why Dr Cullen said that there is a degree of urgency in seeing this legislation in place before the end of the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThen if one looks at the relevant piece of delegated legislation\u2014in this case, the Civil Aviation (Aeronautical Information Service) Levies Amendment Order 2008, which was made on 26 May\u2014one sees that a range of levies are set for a number of airports throughout New Zealand. So the aeronautical information service levy for Christchurch, for example, is $39,526, that for Wellington is $47,852, and\u2014the final example\u2014that for Westport is $299. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Regulations Review Committee will go to all of the relevant ministries, examine their responses for the justification for the legislation, and then report to the House. I know it is certainly the hope of National Party members that we will see the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4) back in the House in good order for the further steps that must necessarily follow\u2014those further steps being a second reading, Committee stage, a third reading, and the Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022451322671771459aaff100b5416c3769\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022451322671771459aaff100b5416c3769\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4), as well. I know that the bill will be well handled in the Regulations Review Committee, chaired by our very able colleague Dr Richard Worth. I will just touch on a couple of issues that are of interest in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI refer specifically to clause 10, \u201CCustoms and Excise Act 1996\u201D, where subclause (a) states \u201CCustoms Import Prohibition (Trout) Order 2007 (SR 2007/298)\u201D. When I look at the Order Paper I notice the Conservation (Protection of Trout as a Non-commercial Species) Amendment Bill, in the name of the Hon David Parker, languishing down at No. 51. I inform the House that when I arrived here\u2014I think it was in the forty-fourth Parliament, briefly, when I first came here\u2014that proposed legislation was sitting on the Order Paper at, I think, about No. 51 or 52, or somewhere in that order. Here we are today in the closing hours of the forty-eighth Parliament, and I see that the Conservation (Protection of Trout as a Non-commercial Species) Amendment Bill is still on the Order Paper. It would be an interesting thing, given that we have the Leader of the House here with us, to find out whether the Leader of the House intends, with similar legislation to this bill, to bring forward the conservation of trout bill in this Parliament. Otherwise I am sure it will turn up at about No. 51, 52, or 53\u2014or something like that\u2014in the forty-ninth Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere is an interesting process on bills like this one, and I notice that this is the No. 4 bill, so I presume that it happens annually. Therefore, for the last 4 years we have had a rollover provision\u2014in this case, the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4). It is a useful vehicle, I think, for the House to tidy up and validate bits of legislation that potentially would roll over\u2014or will, indeed, roll over\u2014and collapse if that did not happen. The only question, I guess, that comes from that is whether this is a good way to deal with legislation in general. If it is, why are there not more Acts of Parliament that have\u2014I am not sure whether this is the right legal term or not\u2014a sunset clause in them? Such Acts would therefore roll over on a regular basis and then be subjected to a process such as that gone through in the Regulations Review Committee, where the original intent of the Act, or the reasons for the Act in the first instance, would be able to be scrutinised and it would be deemed whether they were still valid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere will be an interesting situation going forward, because I know that a colleague of mine not too far from where I am right now has some intentions in the future to bring about an opportunity for legislation to go through a filter whereby the cost of implementing that legislation versus the potential benefit from it will be scrutinised. This type of bill might be a vehicle for that to take place\u2014or a part of that vehicle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would also like to pick up on a comment the Minister made about the changes to the Road User Charges Act 1977, and to say that this is actually a good move. For too long, although most people thought excise tax was taken for the purpose of roading, it has not been spent for that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220b45901049144dc793740c269c02027e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b45901049144dc793740c269c02027e\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E National will be cooperating with the Government on the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill (No 4) and supporting its referral to the Regulations Review Committee, which Dr Worth spoke about earlier, and of which I am a member, along with Eric Roy, on the National side. We will be happy to support this bill. We know how important it is to have this legislation back in the House, and National will be supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245e5b7672a6f44888be10d379691ab4e\u0022\u003EPublic Transport Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f39881d36c84687b1992e8fca88957f\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc55ca5c010b46e9aad6c805af885e4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc55ca5c010b46e9aad6c805af885e4f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Public Transport Management Bill be now read a second time. I would like to thank the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for their work on this bill, and I fully support the changes that have been made to improve its workability. If we want New Zealanders to move towards a more sustainable transport system, we must create a public transport system that is a realistic alternative to the use of the private car. It is therefore essential that New Zealand\u2019s public transport services are affordable, integrated, accessible, safe, responsive to change, and, above all, economically, socially, and environmentally sustainable. With the requirement to reduce our carbon emissions, and with high oil prices, there is a need to increase public transport provision. We are already seeing a rise in the number of people using public transport, with approximately 32 percent more trips being taken on public transport in 2006-07 than in 2000-01. This bill will empower regional councils to better plan and manage public transport services. It will give them the tools to do what they need to, when it is needed, and where it is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EMore than 80 percent of services are contracted and subsidised by ratepayers and taxpayers. Councils set standards for these services, but they cannot do so for the 20 percent of services that are run commercially at the operator\u2019s initiative without a contract. These are called non-contracted services, or commercial services. The bill would empower regional councils to impose controls on all commercial services. The current lack of control over, and information about, commercial services is hindering the ability of regional councils to achieve best value for money, and to effectively plan and manage public transport services. It is critical that public transport services are effectively planned and managed to ensure value for money from the $909 million of ratepayers\u2019 and taxpayers\u2019 money that is forecast to be spent on public transport services in 2008-09. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EA wide range of submissions on the bill were received, and a number of changes have been made in response. The most significant is the inclusion of an oversight mechanism to allow existing commercial public transport operators the right to appeal to the Environment Court against controls imposed by regional councils. A number of criteria for adopting controls, and appealing against them, have been added to the bill. This will help to ensure any controls set are justified. The bill also defines the transport-disadvantaged more clearly\u2014not listing groups that may be transport-disadvantaged, but focusing on what it means to be transport-disadvantaged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIt has been made clear that accessibility standards, for example, requiring super-low bus floors, may also be set. Accessibility standards for public transport services have been defined so that it is plain that accessibility is not just about being able to get on to the bus or ferry but also about having access to information, identifying the correct service, getting to and using seating, and being able to get off the service in the right place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EA number of provisions have been clarified and improved, including setting out the development and content of regional public transport plans, who must be consulted, and when. New criteria for determining when the bundling of services is justified have been added. This bill will enable regional councils to set their notice periods for commencing, varying, and withdrawing commercial public transport services. The timing and process for decisions regarding registrations and deregistrations of service have been improved, so notice periods can be extended, while allowing operators a clear right to be heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAt present, commercial services can be registered, varied, or withdrawn in 21 days. Operators can register some services as commercial if their tender for a contract is not successful, or even while tenders are still being sought, or register part of a timetable of services as commercial. This can inhibit competition for contracted services and give an operator a financial advantage for the contract of remaining non-commercial services in the timetable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill will give regional councils more time to respond to changes in commercial services and ensure continued delivery of services to their communities. The bill will enable regional councils to access more information from commercial public transport services, such as detailed patronage information, and this will help assist in better planning. Monitoring powers have been added so that regional councils can ensure that commercial services are meeting the standard set in their region. Requirements for providing information about commercial services have been improved so that regional councils can use this information for developing plans now, rather than having to go through a complete planning process before being able to access this information. Where information is commercially sensitive, requirements governing its release have been tightened so that such information will be protected, unless there is an overriding reason not to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ERegional councils will be able to set quality and performance standards. Quality standards have been defined, and regional councils will be able to require the use of lower-emission buses and specify standards for such matters as accessibility, comfort, and customer service training. Performance standards will help to ensure that services are reliable and run on time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill will enable the integration of services, ticketing, and fares across a region. If regional councils choose to use this provision, services can be scheduled to connect with each other. All operators will be required to accept the same tickets, and travelling on public transport will be made a whole lot more simple. I would like to take this opportunity\u2014[Interruption] I beg the member\u2019s pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2cf68625944c4fa62e5ebdc8ca20f6\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to be joking. It won\u2019t be simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f0f734626d4b6b8ef4474f1b1aadf5\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member has just said that it will not be simpler. I would say that he has never travelled on a bus, because anybody who gets on a bus with one ticket, then has to buy three or four more tickets to travel on a ferry, a train, and a different bus service finds it very difficult indeed. I say to the member that he should try using public transport in Auckland to see whether it is simple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to signal my intention to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper. Given the recent passage of the Land Transport Management Amendment Act 2008, a number of minor and technical amendments are needed to align this bill with that Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EOnce again I thank the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for the work it has done on this bill, and emphasise the importance of this legislation in enabling regional councils to effectively plan and manage public transport and respond to rising demands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis is a very good bill. It will certainly mean a lot to the passengers who travel on public transport. This bill is aimed at ensuring we have more people travelling on public transport than we currently do, and to better integrate it, to better align it, and to give better standards. It will give consideration to those who are disadvantaged in terms of being able to travel, and I believe that this bill will be widely accepted by the community. It provides options for regional councils; it does not impose them. It gives councils a range of tools that they can choose to use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI am surprised at the deputy Leader of the Opposition, who is showing his ignorance in not having read the bill, in not knowing what is in it, and in not caring whether or not the travelling public of New Zealand have a better transport experience. We know that the National Party\u2019s policy is to build toll roads, at $50 a week, rather than to provide more public transport for the people of New Zealand. We believe in better public transport, and we have taken public transport expenditure now, in conjunction with our ratepayers, to close to a billion dollars, which is up from the miserable $40 million a year spent by taxpayers and the National Government of the day. We are seeing real growth in public transport in New Zealand because of that commitment. I know that the Greens would like to see more. They will see more; public transport services will grow over the years. We will see that because of the ability to provide proper public transport services for passengers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00221b40fdd12605426f8600ec9655a9298b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b40fdd12605426f8600ec9655a9298b\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E We, National, on this side of the House, and the public, are looking forward to hearing the amount of the tolls this Minister will announce in a month\u2019s time. Apparently Labour is very proud of its toll roads, as well. I also want to tell the good news to the Clutha-Southland people down there, because the Minister has challenged the Hon Bill English to use more bus services. So I am sure the Minister is going to put extensive bus services down there in Clutha-Southland so that the Hon Bill English and other good people can travel on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENo matter how many times the Minister has muttered the words \u201Cpublic transport\u201D, this Public Transport Management Bill has a very clearly stated objective. It is actually to clarify and extend the functions and powers of regional councils, in respect of public transport planning and regulation. It is all about control, it is typical of Labour\u2019s intrusive micro-management, and it shows neither respect for private property rights nor the proper process for passing legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet me share with people listening in to this debate: currently we have two types of public transport service. One is commercially viable; the operators register with the regional council their intention to provide a service and they receive no subsidy for it. In the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee we listened to some of the operators during the committee process, and some have built up the commercial viability of their bus routes through the involvement of a family business over a long time. Others have been innovative to ensure that their bus routes have become commercially viable. But another type, which we know as contracted services, actually requires subsidies: public subsidies are required to make sure there is a service on that particular bus route. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ECurrently, the type of operators who provide public services range from city council - owned bus companies, as in Christchurch and other cities, family businesses, or large-scale commercial operators. Some operators, as I have indicated, have registered their intention for a bus route, and have developed it to a more popular base where public subsidy is no longer required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBefore this bill was introduced, there was indeed a quite extensive consultation process. It was carried out to look at three options. Option A, apparently, was the status quo, where bus and ferry services would continue to operate as a mix of contracted or commercial services, and regional councils would have limited control over commercial services that required no subsidy. During the select committee submission process, it was interesting that no matter what backgrounds these operators or submitters came from, they all hailed the Christchurch bus services as an outstanding success, and we remind everybody that the Christchurch bus services have flourished under the current legislative environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOption B was an option to empower regional councils to be able to impose control on commercial services. Let us revisit that: commercial services are services where operators register to operate without public subsidy. One can therefore imagine that commercial operators were very apprehensive. They received no public subsidy, but this legislation would introduce more power for regional councils to tell them what to do or what not to do. Members should think about this\u2014we are down to micro-management, such as the colour of buses that a regional council might want to impose on the bus company. There might be pink buses to stand apart from red ones; I would probably welcome blue buses on the road. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo those operators were shocked to find out that the option B they had been consulted on was eventually different from the option B that had been introduced in the bill. Apparently, the Labour Cabinet, after considering the results of the consultation, have introduced more controls, and more powers for regional councils, than there were in the option that had gone out for consultation. But Labour has not had the decency, actually, in the foreword to the legislation to highlight the fact that option B in the legislation has been presented with variation. It is not the original option B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt took quite a lot of effort for some of us to debate that, and to say that to be fair to the submitters who had been originally involved in the consultation, they should also be able to see the analysis done by officials, in order to offer them the comfort of the original option B and the revised option B, which, according to officials, consists only of technical differences. I can assure members that they are more than technical. But it took quite a bit to convince the committee that the analysis should be released to the operators, because the Labour-led Government always believes that it should keep people in the dark and introduce changes at the last minute to shut down debate or consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other option, which is known as option C, was to empower regional councils to prohibit commercial services, and to bundle commercial and subsidised services together. Can members imagine? If an operator of a family business, a bus operator, had developed a service over a long time, and had developed a route into a commercially viable one so that the operator did not need to receive a public subsidy, that service could disappear. The regional council could decide that it would bundle it together with something else, and take it away from that operator. Well, in the bill that was introduced, the officials advised us why they had decided to go against option A, the status quo. They said they also rejected option C because that option would prohibit commercial services in a region, which might lead to the reduction of opportunities for public transport operators to be innovative, and would reduce the control operators had over their own businesses. That would potentially undermine business confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo even the officials had advised Cabinet\u2014I presume\u2014to ditch option C and go for option B. There was a shock, then, to select committee members\u2014not to mention submitters\u2014when the chairman of the committee, the Hon Mark Gosche, suddenly introduced the notion to the committee that most people liked option C. Well, it was actually not most people; it was the Auckland Regional Council, the Auckland Regional Transport Authority, and councils largely from Auckland, that were saying \u201CIsn\u2019t it a great idea to give local government the total say on how people should run their businesses?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe chairman said that maybe the select committee should forget about consultation and the official advice, and go for option C. Then, of course, we said that option C was outside the scope of the legislation, but we were told by the chairman that he had had a quiet word with the Minister, and that it was all right because the Minister would welcome option C. That is terrible, I thought. Cabinet had rejected option C, and the chairman was trying to get the select committee members into the position of saying that the select committee rather than Cabinet wanted to impose option C. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWell, even New Zealand First, the doormat for this Labour-led Government, can see the writing on the wall in imposing option C and going against the wishes of the great majority of submitters, who had rejected option C. I just point out that I find this Labour-led Government\u2019s total disrespect for consultation and the select committee process incredible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe last thing I will say continues to be on this process. We found out that the good Regulations Review Committee, chaired by my able colleague Dr Richard Worth, had sent us advice on some major concerns it had about the regulatory-making powers in the bill. Unfortunately, the letter went astray, but then the chairman of our select committee would not agree to having a proper process for us to bring this bill back to the select committee for a proper debate before it was brought back to the House. National would not agree to a bill that had taken away private property rights and had ignored the consultation results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022c94d1534be7d433f8913ff4f31b345ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c94d1534be7d433f8913ff4f31b345ab\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is a very sad day when the National Party\u2019s transport spokesman, the Hon Maurice Williamson, who is a former Minister of Transport and the deputy chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which dealt with this Public Transport Management Bill, is unable to speak. Why is that man not allowed to speak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a6d50186c54250adb3e6a73fbd4254\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member cannot draw attention to a member\u2019s absence from the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4aeaaffc3f242e089dbac06e1421f34\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say that I did not. Maurice could have been sitting right there. That member has just pointed out that he is not even allowed in the House; I did not point that out. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d8b6dbbcfe455b8336f5cb8a141a0b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member have a point of order on the floor? If he does, I did not hear it. The member does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0c21a24c454b9d913a530d6c75b505\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh dear! The deputy chair of the select committee, who has been National\u2019s transport spokesman for years and years and is a former Minister of Transport, is unable to take a call today. Has it something to do with the fact that he told the truth about the National Party\u2019s policy on tolling\u2014that it would charge New Zealanders $50 a week? National would give with one hand a $50 tax cut and take with the other hand a $50 toll on the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWe on that select committee have heard, year after year, about the Hon Maurice Williamson\u2019s travels. He is the most travelled man in Parliament. He has been to every public-private partnership structure ever built in the world\u2014every bridge, every tunnel, every road. He knows what those public-private partnerships cost in tolls. I do not get out of the country very often, but recently I was in Brisbane, and I went over the Gateway Bridge, which is just one of the toll roads in Brisbane. Can members guess how much the toll was? It was $2.90 each way. I know that Maurice Williamson is sure to have visited that bridge, because he has visited every bridge in Australia, he tells us. He knows how public-private partnerships work, he knows how much the public would have to pay, and he was telling only the truth about the National Party\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhat is the National Party\u2019s policy on public transport? Bill English said during the speech of the Minister of Transport that it was ridiculous to say that integrated ticketing and integrated fares would solve the problem. Well, Maurice Williamson believes that they would. Actually, he tells us that it is the National Party\u2019s policy to have integrated ticketing and integrated fares\u2014so much so that we all got on a bus outside Parliament to see the new smart-card system operating in Wellington, which could be turned into integrated ticketing and integrated fares if we pass this bill, if the regional council is able to have control. But, no, Bill English once again has had to put his transport spokesman in his place. He says that integrated ticketing and integrated fares are not National Party policy, that it is opposed to them, and that they are stupid. Maurice Williamson says that National is actually for them; he told us that in the select committee. He told the transport operators who brought a bus here not so long ago that they are a sensible idea, that they are a good part of the bill, and that National supports them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo what is the truth? Is it $50 a week or $2 a week? Is it integrated ticketing or is it not? Well, we will wait and see whether the National Party can figure out something as complicated as that before the election. I doubt it can, because poor old Maurice has been sidelined. National members have probably buried him in concrete under a highway somewhere to keep him quiet. Even then we would be able to hear from him, because he would take his telephone with him and make calls. Everybody would still hear from Maurice Williamson what the transport policy of the National Party really is, and Bill English would be working full-time to close him down because he does not want anybody to be frightened by Maurice Williamson\u2019s speaking the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI was listening to Pansy Wong try valiantly to take the role that Maurice Williamson should be filling here today as National\u2019s transport spokesperson. She said there should be no control over the spending of public money. She said it should be left the way it is. That is paraphrasing what she said, but she was saying how terrible it is that the Government wants to have some control over those in the private sector who provide bus, ferry, and train services in this country. The taxpayer and ratepayer subsidy is $909 million\u2014not quite $1 billion. But we heard from the National Party members, who oppose this bill, that the local government authorities, which administer the subsidy on our behalf, are evil, stupid, and venal people who cannot be trusted to put controls on the wonderful people out there who run ferries, buses, and trains, and who, because they are from the private sector, know everything and can do everything without any control by the funder. Well, it will be an interesting situation if that party ever becomes the Government; National would just hand the loot over, just give it to the private sector, and it would not expect to have any control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ENational says it would be ridiculous for the regional councils to even have a plan for a bus colour system. There is no control in the bill\u2014we took it out\u2014but we have said there should be a plan. Anybody who knows Maurice Williamson\u2019s electorate will know that buses go there and back. Generally speaking, they are owned by one company, which has maroon-coloured buses. Everybody who wants to go to east Auckland\u2014which is, unfortunately, represented by Maurice\u2014knows to get on a maroon-coloured bus. National says it is OK for that bus company to paint its buses to look like a Milo tin or a Qantas aeroplane, but it is not OK for the people who pay the bills, the ratepayer and the taxpayer, to tell the company to put up a standard sign or to use a standard colour scheme. National members say that is an intrusion into the rights of the private sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261947703366a444cbf549e63dfa017d0\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s paying for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a511cd38cfaf4400bddbf82c504dc011\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: The taxpayer and the ratepayer are paying for it, because most of those bus companies receive 60 or 70 percent of their income, their revenue, from the taxpayer and the ratepayer. In some cases, it is 80 percent. But National members say we should leave them alone, we should not tell them what to do, and we should not tell them that it would be simple for consumers to figure out that if they want to go somewhere up the coast, they need to get on a bus of a certain colour. No, no, those members say we cannot have that, because it is an intrusion into the private sector\u2019s right to do business. Well, what a lot of nonsense! That is why the National Party is voting against this bill. It says that the private sector should be trusted with $900 million of ratepayers and taxpayers\u2019 funds, without people elected by the community having any say about it. National says that, no, the local authorities should not be planning, and, no, they should not have control. It wants to leave everything to the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWell, we left it to the market in the 1990s. If my memory serves me right, the previous National Government, in all its generosity, was putting $18 million into Auckland\u2019s public transport. Aucklanders wonder why their trains are dilapidated and why it is not easy to get on them at the moment. They wonder why their bus fleet is dilapidated. Well, when the taxpayer and the ratepayer are putting in such a pitiful amount, no signals are sent to the private sector to invest, so it did not. It did not build any new trains, it did not order any new trains, it did not do anything about double tracking, and it did not do anything about grotty railway stations that were open to the weather, covered in graffiti, etc. It did nothing about building wharves so that people could access ferries easily\u2014no, no. Those companies did not do any of that, because National left everything to the market, and we had an absolutely appalling public transport system for a city the size of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI have just been to Brisbane and I have seen the wonders of a public transport system that has integrated ticketing, that has a plan, and that has a Government and a local council committed to it. One can get on a Quick Cat ferry and go from one end of the river to the other on a daily pass costing $4.40. If one gets off the ferry, one can, within a certain time frame, get on a bus and travel by road\u2014some of the roads have dedicated busways like the ones this Government has built\u2014or get on a train, all on the same ticket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EBill English says integrated ticketing is rubbish and the National Party is opposed to it. What would one expect from a visionless outfit like that which does not have a policy yet? If it does have a policy, Maurice Williamson is not allowed to espouse it, because he might tell the truth. This is our truth: public transport up and down the country. Local government has called for it; it supports it. Auckland\u2014all the territorial local authorities and the Auckland Regional Council\u2014was united around option C. The National Party opposed it. The Labour Party members on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee thought it was worth putting it in the bill as an option. Members opposite, who oppose everything for the sake of it, oppose Auckland having a decent public transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThere are something like 200 different fares and products within the public transport system in Auckland alone. The Auckland Regional Transport Authority wants to have it down to 20, and it says this bill is necessary. That is why the Government has put it forward, that is why we have improved it in the select committee, that is why it is necessary, and that is why the National Party will vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022146a12a2031540febf395225335c2d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022146a12a2031540febf395225335c2d8f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E In the context of the last couple of weeks I did not think I would be saying this, but I will say it now: \u201CThank you, New Zealand First.\u201D It may be part of a rotten coalition that is going down the tubes, but it has saved New Zealand from the extreme Labour vision for public transport. Just so the House is quite clear, option C was a grubby little deal done between the member for Maungakiekie and the chairman of the Auckland Regional Council, Mike Lee, with the Prime Minister\u2019s oversight, which would effectively have given Mike Lee direct control of not just hundreds of millions of dollars of public subsidy but also of hundreds of millions of dollars of private assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI do not quite know what other people think, but my experience of the Auckland Regional Council is that it is not the most flexible, responsive, and responsible entity in the country. New Zealand First saw what a huge problem this would be, and it vetoed option C, which is what the Labour Party wanted, and we should be grateful for that. I tell members who else should be grateful for it: passengers. I have listened to Government members, who have now given two speeches about public transport, and they never mentioned the word \u201Cpassengers\u201D. We have heard all about bureaucrats, and all about plans, and all about tickets, and all about what great legislation it is, but we have not heard anything about the people who use public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EEven if one goes with the bill, which is option B\u002B\u2014that is, option B with some of the features of option C\u2014it is still a planner\u2019s dream. If we go with this, the only way people will be able to get a bus service from one part of Auckland to somewhere else, is by turning up to the meetings, knowing how to make submissions, and sitting through a 2-year process to get the regional public transport plan changed\u2014and we know how difficult that will be\u2014and then hoping that some bureaucrat somewhere agrees that a person should be allowed to have a bus service. Even though it is completely commercially viable, planners have to agree that it has to fit in with their nice, neat, tidy plan about how the world should work. Then one might get a new bus service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is at a time when oil prices have gone through the roof, and public demand for public transport is higher than it has ever been, and growing faster than it has ever been. So just when it has to be innovative and dynamic, Parliament will take control of public transport in Auckland. It actually works fine everywhere else. Wellington and Christchurch are running just fine under the current rules. In fact, there is quite a bit of innovation going on. In Wellington the Snapper card is really going to take off. It did not need the Government to pass legislation to get the Snapper card and the inevitably integrated ticketing, which is a good idea if people want to use it. But people in Auckland will get a new bus route when the Auckland Regional Council gets round to changing its plans to a 2-year or 3-year process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWhat about the people who are most dependent on public transport? They do not have the time or the money to be public busybodies going off to give submissions and sitting through long, boring meetings, because they are working every hour in the day that that household can work to keep body and soul together and to pay their bills. That is the reality of people\u2014passengers, users\u2014whom the Government has not talked about in 20 minutes of speeches on the parliamentary consideration of this bill. The Government thinks public transport is for the people who plan it. It thinks public transport is for consultants. It thinks public transport is there to go down the road of the large, failed, integrated ticketing projects in Australia, which in Sydney and Melbourne have fallen apart. This is exactly the vision that the Auckland Regional Council is trying to pursue\u2014to spend $100 million on it, when it has failed in Sydney. The Wellington Regional Council has put in the Snapper card at no public cost. It has been successful, and the council did not need legislation to pass it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is a Labour Party dream: how to make sure that we turn our public transport service into all those things that are the worst aspects of public service. Right now our public transport works, because it is a combination of public subsidy, some legislative oversight, and private sector operators who run it, who are able to innovate, who are able to start new bus routes, and who are able to see public transport not just as a utility but as a service for the public that should operate the way the public want it to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EFor instance, if one lives in the wrong place in Auckland, where the planners are dead keen on this new urbanism and intensification, the planners think everyone should live in high-rise buildings next to a railway station. Well, even if they are right\u2014and I think they are wrong; that is not the right carbon or environmental outcome\u2014most people do not think so. The planners are trying to direct our public transport systems to do something that will not suit most people, as in 95 percent of people, because 95 percent of people do not live in high-rise buildings next to big car parks and railway stations, which is the model. They do not; they live out in the suburbs, often a long way from work; and with oil prices the way they are they need new and innovative public transport. This bill is designed for political control, for inertia, for endless complicated planning processes. It is designed to privilege those people who have the capacity to take part in this bureaucratic morass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI can tell members that the new urbanist planners will have much more influence on the shape of public transport under this bill than the people who use the service\u2014the 1 million Aucklanders who want good and better public transport. And up to now they have been able to get it. The bus-only route to the North Shore appears very expensive. It is mostly empty, but in terms of public transport measures, it has been quite successful. It did not need this legislation to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe other effect of this legislation will be, if we are not careful, a downgrading in investment. You know, one of the reasons people do not like using public transport is that it is just not attractive. In the past, the buses and the trains have been dowdy and smelly, so people avoid them if they can. That is often the case\u2014it is as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThere need to be people running these services so that investment in quality public transport and a good experience will earn some rewards from that investment. That is how we will get buses painted in a way that is attractive, ticketing systems that are easy to use and reliable, and integrated ticketing across whole systems\u2014when there is a financial incentive for success. This bill is heading in exactly the other direction because Labour believes that anyone\u2014[Interruption] There we go. Anyone who makes a profit must have ripped someone off; that is what Labour believes. This bill is designed to create the lowest common denominator. Instead of a dynamic and responsive public transport system that responds to the fact that oil prices are going through the roof, we are going to get a stodgy, lowest-common-denominator, over-planned, over-politicised public transport system. It may be the dream of Labour to spend millions and millions, and to pass laws to satisfy the planners and the bureaucrats, but National is with the passengers. We want a system that responds to the needs of the passengers\u2014the people who get on, the people who use it, and the people who cannot afford to fill their cars. I can tell members that no one in Auckland believes that the Auckland Regional Council is interested in the passengers, and I can tell Sue Moroney that no one in Auckland believes that Labour is interested in them. They know that Labour is much more interested in the Auckland Regional Council getting bigger and fatter than in people getting better public transport. That is why National is opposed to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002246dd3219022e411dba47f392ca426b3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246dd3219022e411dba47f392ca426b3e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My ears were smarting and I was almost embarrassed as the deputy leader of the National Party started his speech. Did I hear correctly that he was saying \u201CThank you, New Zealand First.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1fc8be60cd426b84620fb744ab3900\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249cb6b3639e2462294985baab848bc43\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate those comments and I hope all the people who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca4f7e1a823f46c0a816a9476e7b335b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about the money!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91b0817f4aa4e9daab76827e1287549\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Hide to tell us about all his secret trusts and to open his books. New Zealand First is the most open political party in New Zealand. We would never get Mr Hide to make a true statement outside this House. He hides in this House. He is very well named\u2014\u201CHide\u201D\u2014he is a hider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as the Public Transport Management Bill is concerned, New Zealand First has a consistent attitude of supporting land transport management. We supported it in 2004, and we supported it a few weeks ago. Of course, the National Party has a consistent attitude of opposing land transport management. It opposed it in 2004 and it opposed it a little while ago. Let us bear that in mind. The speech we heard from the deputy leader of the National Party, although I appreciate his compliment to New Zealand First, is consistent with his party\u2019s failure to support a proper land transport or public transport management system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First went to a considerable amount of trouble with regard to this legislation. Peter Brown, who is busy at the moment on other public business, was on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. I met with Peter Brown and other interested people and another member of our team also met with Peter Brown and interested people, and we have taken a close interest in this legislation. What appears to have been the case is that we had the original option A, then we had, in fact, two option Bs\u2014what I have been calling option B1, which was a compromise situation that was agreed, and then option B2, which was a variation of the compromise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENow I always take the view that if people sat down and had a meeting and everyone has agreed, they should stick to that agreement. They should not, later on, try to use the power and weight from a certain section to bully another party. Some people are just bullies inside this House and they are puppy dogs outside. We take the view that when people have a meeting and have come to an arrangement, they should stick with that. If they are going to change the arrangement, they should have another good meeting and go through the exercise once more; they should not go around the corner and use a cudgel to try to browbeat someone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe ended up with option B2, which was set away from the compromise, and then we had this option C. I read the explanatory note of the bill during the first reading\u2014I do not have it here\u2014and it totally condemned option C. In the explanatory note, the people who brought this bill to Parliament were highly condemnatory of option C. I cannot see how they could stand up in Parliament to support option C when they had totally condemned option C when they introduced the bill. New Zealand First will not be supporting option C in any shape or form. If any amendments are brought in the Committee, I say we will not be supporting a bill that has option C in it. Let us make that absolutely clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMany changes have been made to the bill. As an Auckland member of Parliament, I say that, once again, sadly, this is virtually an Auckland-type of bill. There are no problems, as I understand it, around the rest of the country but once again we are stuck with trying to sort out something in Auckland. Auckland, of course, has a particular geographical nature. It is an isthmus, very widely spread out, and it is uneconomic to run a proper transport system on a population of just about 1.3 million. As far as that is concerned, it is very difficult. Again, we are on an area of volcanic rock and that makes it very hard to go underground. I am not an engineer but I know that Auckland has peculiar topographical difficulties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ETo make it clear, New Zealand First recognises that in the majority of regions public transport operates under a fully regulated model and it can be said that it often operates very well. There are other areas where it operates under a less regulated regime but it can also be said to operate well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIn Auckland there are problems particularly around integrating ticketing and bundling of services to some extent. I am familiar with the integrated ticketing system. I was speaking with someone on the plane the other day and asked him where he was going and how he travelled to work and such like. He used the busway on the North Shore and then he caught another bus or train to go to Mount Eden and he used the same ticket. I regard that as integrated ticketing. I understand integrated ticketing already exists in a form in Auckland. I also understand that we do not need to change the law even in Auckland to have integrated ticketing, if we want it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt seems to be the case in Wellington\u2014and I have just heard for the first time that there is integrated ticketing there. I have seen the Snapper card and I was very interested in it. In England there is another fish\u2014there is the Oyster card. When my daughter greets us at Heathrow she gives my wife and me an Oyster card each. We get off the plane and we get on to the train and we use the bus. We use whatever we like; the system is totally integrated. That is a wonderful way of doing things and I am wholeheartedly in favour of an integrated system, whether it is called a Snapper card or an Oyster card, or whatever fishy name it is given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a31d76b2274650b12f0dc81d29533a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Talking about fish, how about scampi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55b06c5264c47b4a020cab4074bf13b\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I do not eat fish, so I have no idea what people talk about when they go on to fishy things. I am saving the fish population of the world; that is my contribution to the environment. I do not eat fish and stocks will not run out in 2047 because of me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThere are some who believe option C is a solution to Auckland\u2019s public transport woes. New Zealand First disagrees and will oppose any Supplementary Order Paper that attempts to introduce option C. Let us explain why. In essence we believe Auckland needs an administrative structure that encourages investment, innovation, and efficiency. At the same time, it should hold transport operators to account to ensure that services provided are reliable, convenient, comfortable, and affordable. To achieve these attributes it is essential there is regular consultation between regional administrators and the transport operators. We believe that the bill, as returned from the select committee, achieves that balance, so we will support it at the second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EA comment was made about buses and the regulations surrounding the administration of the system, and when I first saw this bill I was very concerned about clause 10 and clause 12, which seem to have a considerable regulatory impact on what could be done, including, even, painting the buses in a particular colour. The question was raised by a Labour member as to who is paying for it. The Labour member seems to have forgotten that the buses are paid for by the private operators who own the buses. If someone owns the bus, surely that person has the right as to how the bus should be painted. That person wants, in many respects, to distinguish his or her company from a competitor\u2019s, so will paint the bus however they choose. Stagecoach, as opposed to Ritchie\u2019s Transport Holdings, in Auckland might want to paint a bus in a particular colour, and others might have their own style. They can say to the public: \u201CWe\u2014X company\u2014run our company and our business better than you and in commercial areas you should be using our operation because we are good and we are willing to say that we are good and we want our bus painted our way.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIn respect of that aspect of insisting that buses be painted in a particular way, although we can understand it, all we really need, from the point of view of someone like me who uses a bus now and then, is a sign that tells us where the thing is going. We can stand at a bus stop, see the sign, know where the bus is going, and hop on that bus. None of us is that deficient that we cannot work out where a bus is going. We should not insist a bus be painted in a particular colour when we do not even own the bus. When bus owners want to put on, say, a hundred new buses at a cost of God knows what a bus costs\u2014about $400,000\u2014surely they should have the right to paint their own buses in the way they want to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI note that some work was done by the Regulations Review Committee. I could see very well, having been a member of that select committee in the last session\u2014and having been in Parliament when that concept was first established many, many years ago\u2014why we would be concerned about clauses 10 and 12. I must say that I congratulate the select committee on the work it did. Many amendments have been made to this bill. Clauses 10 and 12 have been changed, in some respects quite drastically and dramatically, and I am very pleased with the efforts made by Peter Brown to try, with the select committee, to produce a bill that goes some way down the middle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First wants to make sure that all New Zealand has a good public transport system. We appreciate that the solution in this legislation is mainly directed at Auckland, because, once again, Auckland is the problem. We believe that this legislation as it stands is a workable solution to the problems that exist at the present time, and we will be supporting this bill. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e582f1b58fd44add83ce7919cbb675d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e582f1b58fd44add83ce7919cbb675d6\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Public transport needs a big hand up if it is to play the role that it needs to play to reduce car dependence, to reduce greenhouse emissions, to protect us from oil price rises so we can still get around, and to reduce congestion in our cities. The Public Transport Management Bill sets out to make progress in that direction, and the Green Party supports it. However, still more needs to be done. New Zealand cities are world famous for their poor levels of public transport and their high levels of car dependence. The famous transport academic from Western Australia, Peter Newman, says that car-dependent cities around the world have the highest proportion of their wealth spent on transport. Auckland spends 16 percent of its wealth on moving people around. That is four times higher than a city like Copenhagen, for example. So it is highly economically inefficient to have public transport services that are less than what they could be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe also have a quote from Paul Mees, from the University of Melbourne, who says: \u201CThe decline of public transportation used since the 1950s has been the worst of any major Western city in the world. Even in US cities today the bulk of transport funding is going into public transport. Auckland defies this global trend.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI want to talk about public transport in our cities from the perspective of a transport user. I will suggest that what Bill English has just said about the perspective of a public transport user could not be further from the truth. The travelling public, in Auckland and Wellington at least, are voting with their feet. They are moving out of their cars now. We have a reduction, for the first time in history, of vehicle kilometres travelled on Auckland motorways at peak time, and we have a very significant increase in the use of public transport. This is in response to rising oil prices, and also, I think, to congestion. The fact that the trains have benefited even more than the buses, because they are not subject to that congestion, just shows what a significant factor this is in influencing transport choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWhen as consumers we try to make those choices, what do we find? Well, Bill English admitted that we find poor-quality buses, we find poor reliability, we find unclear timetables, and we find a complete failure to connect. Who is running those buses now? It is the private companies that Bill English thinks should retain all the decision making. If we have poor-quality buses now that are old and dilapidated and not very clean, we need to be able to set standards for the quality of public transport services. But we cannot do so unless those services are contracted. That is why we need a fully contracted model. If I want to change from my train trip to a bus to get where I am going, the timetable is not integrated, the buses do not leave when the trains arrive, the tickets are not integrated, and, despite what New Zealand First has been claiming, I cannot buy a ticket in either Auckland or Wellington that will allow me to transfer from buses to trains on the same fare. They do not connect. Yes, we have a Snapper ticket in Wellington, which is very snappy, but it is only for the buses; it does not allow connection with the trains, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe have public transport systems that are not reliable. I have a secretary who regularly texts me in the morning to say that the train has stopped between stations, that she does not know when it will start again, and that the trains are not on time. In order to solve that problem we need more investment and we need more services. If the public are moving from their cars to buses and trains, we need more buses and trains at peak hour to accommodate that demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EBill English says that private operators and private owners of buses will give the people what they want, but their elected representatives will not. Do we really believe that? Will we vote in those people who say that they will not give people the sorts of bus services they want, and that they will do something else just because they believe in it? I do not think so. The private operators have not been giving people what they want, which is why there is now a call to have greater public control over those services and greater powers for regional authorities. So, in fact, Mr English destroys his own case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EHe thanked New Zealand First for protecting the rights of the monopolist bus companies against the overwhelming submissions of virtually every council and of the smaller bus operators\u2014who do not get a fair go in the competitive system at the moment because of the monopolist behaviour of some big ones\u2014against the submissions of the Planning Institute, and against the submissions of commuters. The travelling public will thank the Green Party for introducing an amendment in the Committee stage to insert option C, which is a fully contracting model, as an option. We will not impose that on any regional council. We believe that regional councils that are elected by the people can decide, in consultation with the people, what the best model is for their city. But they ought to have that option of a fully contracted system. We will introduce that amendment at the Committee stage, and we believe it will pass. I thank numerous colleagues for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ERegional councils need to be able to ensure that there is coverage of the whole city, that there is a network of buses that go where people want and when people want, that there are common standards of comfort, quality, emissions, and reliability, and that all of these services connect. They cannot do that without the powers of this bill, and particularly without the powers of option C, which we will add back into the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis in itself will not be enough. We are strongly supportive of this legislation. We have talked to the Government about it all the way through. It is a great first step, but more is needed. We have a system that tells people that if they want a new State highway or motorway in their region, central government through the National Land Transport Fund will dish out all the money\u2014100 percent funded out of the fund. But if people want public transport as an alternative to that new motorway, they will have to pay for most of it themselves. That has always been a problem, because as soon as a regional council\u2014however much its people are asking for public transport and however much it wants to provide it\u2014puts up the rates to pay for it, it gets turfed out of office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt has been distortionary of our transport system for years and years that State highways and motorways are centrally funded, yet if we want to build a railway to do the same thing, and to carry the same people the same distance across the city, Auckland or Wellington will have to fund about half of it itself. We need to change the funding arrangements in the National Land Transport Fund. We need to put public transport and roading on a level playing field. We need to make sure that those alternatives to new roading\u2014those alternative choices for commuters\u2014are funded at the same rate as roads are. Otherwise, we are asking them to compete with one hand tied behind their backs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThat is something the Green Party has campaigned on for years. I have a bill that has won the ballot and has been sitting waiting for its first reading for a year. It would change that balance of funding, but it is pretty obvious it is not going to get its first reading before the election. However, I look forward to it progressing next year and to our getting a level playing field for different transport modes so that at least consumers can have the choice of travelling the way they want to travel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8e020930a4f4da9904ff157045a502c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8e020930a4f4da9904ff157045a502c\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. The M\u0101ori Party comes to this bill fuelled by our commitment towards developing options to support cheap, free, regular, reliable, and frequent public transport. We are acutely aware that the transport sector is responsible for 45 percent of our greenhouse gas emissions. Our capacity to achieve an integrated, safe, responsive, and sustainable public transport system is thus motivated by our commitment towards the impacts of peak oil, alongside our responsibility to prepare for climate change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe are interested in any strategies to achieve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce vehicle emissions, and public transport services are certainly a central part of that plan. As the Auckland Regional Transport Authority advised us, a good public transport system is one of the many tools to support sustainability and climate change initiatives. But our focus is also, as always, on he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. What will be the contribution that this legislation makes towards improving the quality of life for our people? It is more than simply adding a band-aid to the perpetual problem of the urgent need to develop a high-quality public transport system for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis House has long been aware that public transport in Auckland is inadequate. There is too much duplication between bus and train services and almost no coordination between services. Constituents in my T\u0101maki-makau-rau offices are routinely describing public transport in our region as slow, infrequent, unreliable, and expensive. Worst of all, people who happen to live in the outlying suburbs of Auckland, Takanini, Massey, Clendon, and R\u0101nui are often the least well provided for, yet it is these same communities where the people who need quality affordable public transport are more likely to live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis Public Transport Management Bill is therefore desperately needed, not so much because of the general lack of satisfaction with our transport options but more because of the need to have the infrastructure in place to ensure there is public transport available for those who need it most. One of the most interesting amendments added by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee was the importance of regional councils considering the needs of people who can be considered transport-disadvantaged and consulting groups that represent them. In the submissions received on the bill, we heard a range of variations on a theme about what transport-disadvantaged could mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAge Concern, drawing on the World Health Organization report Global Age-friendly Cities, emphasises that accessible and affordable public transport is a key factor influencing active ageing, describing it as a lifeline from social isolation for those without access to cars. CCS Disability Action and the Human Rights Commission describe the provision of an accessible public transport system as pivotal to enabling disabled people to participate and live full and enriched lives. They drew attention to the issues associated with social isolation and exclusion when people are unable to move freely about their communities and are trapped within their own homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe National Council of Women told the committee that there is a lack of public transport in rural towns and in regions. In fact, as a consequence of the submission a new definition of \u201Ctransport disadvantaged\u201D was established to refer to those living rurally. The council also argued that city services need to provide better for shift workers and those wanting more flexibility in peak time. The proposed definition of \u201Ctransport disadvantaged\u201D, as put forward by the select committee, chose to focus on people being at least able to get to basic community activities and services, such as work, education, health care, welfare, and food shops rather than refer to specific interest groups or populations. That is a very useful addition to the bill and we welcome the intent of the legislation in clarifying and extending the functions and powers of regional councils to regulate public transport services provided in their regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe bill will enable regional councils to plan for the public transport services they wish to have in their region, and all of that is very positive, especially in the case of Auckland. But we in the M\u0101ori Party wonder whether this bill goes far enough. The undeniable fact is that world oil production is peaking now. There is an increasing rate of demand for oil but also an increasing rate of scarcity. For every new barrel of oil discovered, five or six barrels are being used. We inevitably find ourselves in a position in which we have become almost totally oil-dependent for transport. So it is essential that we apply our most creative thinking to considering long-term, feasible public transport options. We may need to electrify more transport, to prioritise urban design around walking and biking rather than create more traffic jams or exacerbate the suburban trap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt may well be time to turn to the ingenious humans who have for some time been leading the world in providing public transport on a reduced energy diet. Cuba now moves masses of people across Havana during rush hour by a complex mass-transit system that requires little additional funds or fuel. Virtually every vehicle in existence is called on for an elaborate system of ride-sharing, in which commuters ride in handmade wheelbarrows and on buses, animal-powered vehicles, bicycles, and motorised two-passenger rickshaws. Imagine that here in Wellington. Ministers could travel to work in pairs in a rickshaw, and Associate Ministers could be issued with a wheelbarrow each. Imagine the savings that would be achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOne of the most innovative Havana inventions is the camel\u2014not the spitting humpback version, but a large mule semi-trailer pulled by a truck that holds up to 300 vehicles. It may not sound like a going concern for Remuera or Kohim\u0101rama, but the point is that a massive attitudinal change has taken place that we could all learn something from. In Cuba it is nothing for Government officials to pull over and fill up their Government vehicles with people needing a ride. A donkey cart with a taxi licence nailed to a frame will be travelling in Cuban streets while a common truck has been converted to public transport by welding a set of steps on the back for riders to jump on and off with ease. Dover could ride on that. The M\u0101ori Party is keen to investigate all options, all strategies, to consider additional public transport options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc5bcb53da24d7e848f653799c99686\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Wheelbarrows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083bdac72146432b98c85c7c852d144a\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: Wheelbarrows, yes. We believe that we need to make a long-term investment in improved public transport systems to achieve less oil dependency, less smog, lower petrol bills, and significantly reduced emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere is, however, one last thing I would like to raise about this bill\u2014that is, our greatly weakened consultation processes. The select committee has recommended that the consultation provisions of this bill should be amended by deleting the requirement to consult the public and M\u0101ori. The rationale given was that such consultation was too onerous, yet, on the other hand, it was content to extend the requirement to consult commercial operators and to add in a two-phase consultation approach. That new approach consults operators and councils as a first step, then the wider public under local government processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe in the M\u0101ori Party believe that the effect of this new two-phase approach actually narrows the scope, the weight of public voice, and, significantly, the views of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. To this end we will be submitting a Supplementary Order Paper at the Committee stage to ensure that these limitations are adequately addressed. There ends my wheelbarrow!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b307b6487c8348c2bde715ec7c2e54fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b307b6487c8348c2bde715ec7c2e54fb\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to speak in this House, and to speak, in particular, on behalf of the people of Auckland, and especially those of Epsom. I would like to thank Jeanette Fitzsimons of the Green Party for putting up option C. I can tell the House that, having considered this issue and having talked to the people of Epsom and the people of Auckland, the ACT party certainly will support option C. We in Auckland are sick of a commercial operator dominating the market and blocking out competition and choice\u2014things that ACT favours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI hear Dail Jones giggling away in the background. I would not mind if Dail Jones would argue this matter on the basis of policy. I find it very disturbing to have reports from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee that Peter Brown said New Zealand First had to support option B because it had received money from Infratil. If that is the case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226bc1b662b1048949141c38f5e4f52cf\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285216e2ca07c4ba39b64736980d9676c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I know exactly what the member is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299178b0a29a841fc8aef7040cabaed04\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a liar\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc16f310351f44e7b9c3f35013e017ef\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f83ddb6c80473dae198f7c66be1857\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670b3788219e411ea6dd0056788ddc4d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I now ask Mr Jones to stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221938cfe80f2f48099b75b5736e85c2a5\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221efd49b3733e430492d1ee834ee5fdc1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is one all. Let us proceed with the game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed50794123e14d5082a0ba44c3813b45\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was a reason that Peter Brown gave as to why New Zealand First had to support option B. I am sorry but that was what the members of the committee heard\u2014unless they have been misleading me. Maybe others there will confirm it for me. I see Mr Bennett nodding his head to indicate that what I said was an accurate rendition of what happened at the committee. I notice also that Dail Jones was not at the committee, which is a bit tough. David Bennett was at the committee, and he has confirmed what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233445f575e614e13b9fbe55e24300e1f\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. He is persisting with his disregard of your ruling. You have ruled that this matter cannot be raised any further, and I would ask you to take the appropriate action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f64f3a805e54462a9c06ca755cdc6c98\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to desist and to be careful with his debate, because that kind of remark can lead to disorder, and that has its own ramifications. Would the member just speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f631d7b060e45f89bea55ad4ade6252\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Speaker\u2019s ruling is 52/1 or something like that. A member cannot repeat in this House a defamatory statement that was made anywhere, and cannot regard it as a reliable statement to use in the House. If something is defamatory anywhere, it cannot be used in this House just because someone has said it somewhere else. That is Speaker\u2019s ruling 52/1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb30d4fe25fd482dbdff08d1ed96e890\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one referring to quotes. The member is quite right. That is why I have asked the member to desist and to get on to the actual bill, because he cannot get round Speaker\u2019s rulings or the Standing Orders by the use of quotes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa71428c88c48e08ba7fe8da26517d9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was not quoting from a document. I want to check with Dail Jones that nothing I am saying is potentially sub judice. Am I OK? Just about every time I get up here to speak, the matter becomes sub judice and the Speaker shuts me down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205512fee50294e1d8407ac0bb90399c4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206755647ac314cc9b11f83864c1b2945\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I also want to know from Dail Jones whether there is anything sub judice about the Tiberius Corporation. Would that be sub judice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022375e0e94bad446cfbd264ddf07de0b1b\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: We know that Mr Hide breaches the sub judice rule all the time because he is a political coward. He does not have the guts to say it outside the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225f62129681647a2b17e0ebb8402988f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Jones, this is getting to the stage of being out of control. To imply that someone is a coward is to challenge his or her courage, and that is a personal reflection. The member has been here a long time, and I ask him to be careful with what he is saying. I ask him now to withdraw and apologise for the use of that word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1edcb3f20a4157b591ea98ee934c3e\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I can, I believe, describe the actions of a person in a vigorous way, but not the person himself. I am describing Mr Hide\u2019s actions when I use that particular phrase, not Mr Hide, which is why I put the word \u201Cpolitical\u201D in front of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f703236feff445d69dcc90614062334d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Jones. I ask Mr Hide to desist and come to the bill. I remind members that under Speakers\u2019 ruling 51/1 unparliamentary remarks from a member do not justify an unparliamentary reply. That ruling was from Speaker Guinness. I ask Mr Hide to be careful and speak to just the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f408cf13fae4bb98d0c330425f2c2ef\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I will be very, very careful and I will speak to the bill. I forgive Dail Jones because he is under a lot of pressure, and why would he not be? I have never asked for him to withdraw and apologise, and I have never tried to shut down Dail Jones\u2019 speeches, because I think he is fully entitled to speak. I forgive him for his slights of me and the ACT party, because I understand the pressure he is under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI come back to the matter at hand, and it is this. This is why I support option C from Jeanette Fitzsimons. We put a subsidy of about $90 million a year, when I last looked, into Auckland bus services. What I find disturbing about how the subsidy operates now is that if one commercial operator has that subsidy, another commercial operator cannot run along that route\u2014it is effectively blocked. It is a huge advantage to receive the subsidy. It blocks competition and choice. When I talk to the people of Epsom, lovely as they are, wonderful as they are, they ask what is wrong with having another bus run down the road, what is wrong with having a bit of competition and choice, and what is wrong with allowing the Auckland Regional Transport Authority to contract on a competitive basis. People in Epsom understand choice and they understand competition, just like the Green Party members do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c97c766f1984208b1abf44f27cacab9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Because they are wonderful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d505ae4edf664968a8fea9a0003babce\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because they are wonderful\u2014the people of Epsom; I have to be careful about praising the Green Party! They have fine memories, by the way, of Keith Locke. He will be telling everyone there to give the party vote to the Green Party\u2014which I respect; we can work with those members on some issues\u2014and he will also be saying: \u201CGive your vote to Rodney, and I promise I won\u2019t run naked down Newmarket in my birthday suit ever again.\u201D Of all the people whom I would want to run naked down Newmarket, I would have to say that Keith Locke would be higher up the list than a lot of others I could think of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b608693b42740148d08b2a8ef6354a8\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: They banished your yellow jacket in Newmarket, didn\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a16e3bf3f1df465d97e3769b2a13d1f5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: They love my yellow jacket in Newmarket. The people have spoken. I tell members the one thing people in Epsom do not like: red jackets. They hate red in Epsom and in Newmarket. They like every other colour. They like blue, they like Jackie Blue, they love Jackie Blue, but they do not love the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f86826daf4f4407a08d684862690c9f\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d76f7d51a9c4e63b75cc3cb5ccbfdcd\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No one does. ACT supports option C, and I am a little bit disappointed in my colleagues in the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d448574883ae4a5088ae44e1f439a0b1\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022445658a6bd9a465cbe2f4cb387a6f123\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, I know. I am not being churlish, I hope, and I hope I am not being overly critical, and I hope I am not causing any upset that could derail National\u2019s campaign or unhinge future Cabinet posts. I am a bit critical of the National Party because I thought it favoured competition and choice. No? Oh, it looks like it might be up for grabs. I ask David Bennett to say \u201CYes\u201D; now would be a good time to say \u201CYes\u201D. No, the National party members have learnt not to answer even simple questions. David Bennett is in favour of competition and choice, and that is what option C is all about\u2014competition and choice. That is why the ACT party favours it. We are against any attempt to monopolise a service, and we know that with option C Auckland will get a better-quality service, it will get better value, and it will get better pricing, and if members add all that up, they will see that it cannot be too bad. Here is another reason for voting for it: if New Zealand First wants option B, members have to look twice at supporting it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022489f6bd7e2414811b743fbd644129ca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022489f6bd7e2414811b743fbd644129ca1\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E After that very inspirational and entertaining speech, the first thing we need to look at is what the options actually were. Option C was the Government\u2019s preferred option, which basically gave regional councils the greater share of control. There were two versions of option B, as New Zealand First has explained; there was B1 and B2. This is probably not the best analogy to describe the options, but B2 was the option that was followed in the legislation, and B1 was the option that was agreed upon between the parties. That agreement happened when the bus companies, the regional councils, and the Government got together, had a bit of a talk, and decided they could live with option B1. Although it was not quite the perfect scenario, it was the one they believed would make some change to assist in public transport, especially in the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut at some point the Government changed its mind and felt it could not live with the agreement it had made with all the parties involved, so it decided, at Cabinet level, that it would go out on its own. The Government then promoted option C, which basically gave the regional councils the greater share of control. The Minister came into the Chamber earlier and indicated that she will be putting forward a Supplementary Order Paper on this matter, which will essentially change the legislation to option C. It will be very interesting to see how the parties in this House vote on that, and the indication we heard from New Zealand First today is that it will vote against that Supplementary Order Paper. I do not expect to see that happen, because from our experience in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to actually see New Zealand First carry through on its word and vote in that manner will be something that National will look forward to. The day I see it will be the day I believe it, I guess. But the ball is in New Zealand First\u2019s court, and it may go against the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper and vote for option B2, not for option C. Mr Hide has raised some issues about how and why that may happen, but that discussion is for another day, I am sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EPublic transport is at the heart of the legislation, and I do not think anybody has a problem with supporting the need for a strong, public transport network in New Zealand. That is especially so in Auckland, which has the largest population density in the country. The region needs to be serviced by an effective and efficient public transport system, which will be a combination of buses and trains, and ferries for a city that has a harbour, as Auckland has. Many options can be taken and things done to assist in that process. One option may be integrated ticketing, and another may be to keep the private sector involved in the competitive aspect of keeping public transport an effective and efficient tool in our biggest city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Auckland Regional Transport Authority is the body that has the primary role for organising and managing the public transport of Auckland City and it does a very good job. It is a well-known body that has worked well within the community to achieve its aspirations. We look forward to seeing its preparedness to do that in the future, and maybe even the development of its ability to do so, as we see potential change in the structure of Auckland governance. There may be an extended role, perhaps, for the transport authority under such a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHowever, the authority is not the only body that can play an important role in this process; we need the private sector to also be successful if we want to have a public transport system in Auckland that is effective. The private sector role in public transport is very apparent at the moment. The private sector is probably providing the vast bulk of bus services in the city and it does that through a number of operators, with one large operator having a very high percentage of the market. That operator has done an exceptional job, as well. It has worked with the Auckland Regional Transport Authority in the past, and both parties have come to some very fruitful agreements and provided a lot of good services for the public of Auckland City.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe need to see that process continue. There is no way in which we can take both of those parties and then choose one to have the upper hand over the other. We need both the private sector and the regional council in order to be effective. That was the whole reason why they both came to the Government and reached an agreement. Option B1 was proposed and agreed upon. That is what we need to see happen in the future, but at this stage we are seeing a breakdown between the players. We essentially have a situation where the Government of the day is aligning itself with one of the players, and that is not good for Auckland\u2019s public transport. What is needed in this case is for those parties to get around the table and to work out a viable solution that involves the private sector, gives the Auckland Regional Transport Authority the powers that it needs in order to do its job, and also gives the Government the confidence that public transport service operations will be delivered in Auckland City. That is the goal we should attempt to achieve in this House through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut that goal is not being achieved through this legislation, and it will not be achieved if this bill, and the Supplementary Order Paper the Labour Government wishes to put through, are passed. That will seriously damage any chance of that kind of tripartite working arrangement becoming a reality for the benefit of Auckland public transport users. So I would encourage the Government to pull this bill\u2014to actually go back to the parties and work out a viable solution that achieves its goals. The Government has got itself in a predicament now where it has a solution that is favouring one of the parties, and that is not acceptable for Auckland transport users long term, because it will not give the best gains for users as they go forward. That is a true test of governance, and a Government showing leadership in this area will be recognised if people can work out that they have made a mistake or have not actually reached a proper agreement, and then work towards a solution in the area. That is something we have seen lacking in this Government in its dealing with transport issues. We constantly see legislation put forward that is a quick-fix solution but does not take into account the parties and the roles they can play in reaching viable and successful solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt has been an interesting environment in which to see how the options were progressed through the select committee, how they were progressed through the Government mechanism, and how we are now getting to a result that is not in the best interests of all the players involved. That shows a poor understanding of the issue by the Government members involved. It shows an unwillingness by the Government to work with all the people who can be involved in solving these issues for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe National Party has opposed this bill because we see that this solution has gone too far to one side of the argument. It has not taken into account all the parties involved, and what their potential arrangements and contributions could have been towards reaching a greater solution. So the National Party is very disappointed in the result of this legislation. We believe that if the Government had stuck to the original agreement made by the parties, then the House could well have been passing legislation that was not what everyone wanted but was what everybody could have worked on together and achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIf this legislation passes and if the Supplementary Order Paper passes, I think we will see that the private sector involvement in Auckland\u2019s public transport will be very much limited, and that will be to the detriment of the users of the services. I do not think that that is in anyone\u2019s interests when we need to encourage people on to public transport, especially in a major city such as Auckland. Equally, we need to take into account the role of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority, and the need for that body to have some control and provide some solutions it sees as important, as it works on long-term planning in the city of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThere is the prospect of getting that solution, but it will not come about through this bill. The process by which this bill has arrived at the option that has been voted on today is something that we have all found quite interesting, and an eye-opener into the way politics can work. This bill certainly does not represent the interests of Auckland\u2019s transport users. It does not represent the public good of promoting public transport, and it does not represent the potential contribution that the private sector can make in solving those issues. Therefore we oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022e006cb11f18d4431917afe435545f477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e006cb11f18d4431917afe435545f477\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Public Transport Management Bill is a very positive bill. I did not have the privilege of sitting on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and I want to compliment Mark Gosche and his team on their work. A bill that attempts to better integrate commercial services into a regional transport plan is a good one. In that context, I also want to say that this Government has, over the years, increased spending on public transport by what\u20141,000 percent? By what percentage have we increased investment on public transport? The chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee should know that; I am sure she does. It is by at least 1,000 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons why I am interested in greater supervision in respect of the commercial services is the announcement made by Maurice Williamson that we are to be looking at tolling on the Waikato Expressway, which would increase the cost to motorists going from Hamilton to Auckland by $100 or $200 a week. Therefore, ironically, the National Party\u2019s intention to look at privatising and tolling some of our major roads is the real secret agenda. Funnily enough, that will be a huge incentive for people to use bus and rail services, even if they are commercial services with no public subsidy. Obviously, we will take a greater interest in commercial public transport services. I hope we can get a better middle course and not necessarily go down that road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI have repeatedly asked the member for Coromandel, Sandra Goudie, to get up in this House and talk about the National Party\u2019s plans to toll K\u014Dp\u016B Bridge, but she will not. Dare I say that public transport in the Thames area, between Thames and Ng\u0101tea, is also quite an important factor because that will be another\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf3ef96fb1b4f8cae6f8aec294553a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: More desperate scaremongering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625241cea4874c5697c25eb36ee5eec8\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: Scaremongering? That is not scaremongering. That is the truth. How can we be scared of the truth? The member should not be scared of the truth. That is what is in the top drawer of National\u2019s policies. What is scaremongering about Maurice Williamson going on the Agenda programme and speaking the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226306541e694c49759f3ad5342ceaafaf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: He never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806ec1fdb79244da91af4f9e96ee4beb\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member looked at the transcript of the interview, he would see that Maurice Williamson talked about $5 a trip and he talked about tolling. I think he talked about 50 bucks a week, or whatever. That is what he said. The member should read the transcript of the Agenda interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f4570a0c0e64f37b8367721ac7325c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You are making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad089f4cf6b44483b79e7bf36725d4dc\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not making it up. That is not scaremongering. In that context, this excellent bill has a certain resonance to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EObviously, we will take an interest in commercial public transport services, because, should National get into office, I would say that some of those intercity commercial services will get a whole lot more attractive. Certainly, the bus services in the Thames area\u2014and Sandra Goudie needs to take a call on this\u2014just got a whole lot more attractive. [Interruption] She will not take a call? She has been in the House, but she will not take a call. Is it National\u2019s intention to put a toll on the K\u014Dp\u016B Bridge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn the brief time I have to speak on this bill, I want to emphasise that it is good that the bill will improve the tools available to local authorities for providing public transport services to a set standard in our region. I think the leadership that Environment Waikato, if I can speak in terms of my region, is providing along with the city council is really good. I think there is some work to do in terms of the control and the working of the buses within our city, but I think this gives us a very good template and a very good model on which we can improve our integrated public transport services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EMy final observation is to point out what an incredible achievement we have seen in this country after 9 years, in terms of integrated public transport services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8aea46ce5374405912d91069dcf4118\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What a joke. It has gone backwards. Congestion has got worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022650355eefe7d4cbfbaa31f4beda443b0\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: The Maurice Williamson solution to congestion is tolling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e740bfb6f8b24810b9064b05401335d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Build some roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4f91ae3e0440909d44883c09a041c3\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: I am speechless. It is not often that I am speechless, but I am. These guys have not watched the interview on Agenda. These guys do not even know what their own spokesperson on transport has in store. They must know what is in store. It will be congestion charges, it will be tolling, and it will be the Macquarie Bank Waikato Expressway. Can members not see the grand opening? Roger McClay or whoever\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd13c1930484415bcc8e670c09fadc0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Jim McLay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a2bafcf1f546e797422b6dce2ce784\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: Jim McLay; I am sorry, I apologise to Roger McClay. Jim McLay and the Hon Maurice Williamson will be at the opening of the Macquarie Bank Waikato Expressway. We can just see it! Commercial bus services between Hamilton and Auckland just got a whole lot more attractive under that terrible scenario.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to commend this bill to the House. It gives a very, very good platform for the future management of public transport in our region. I hope the doomsday scenario that I just painted never comes to pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b31b45463b74024b3447ff71232c674\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ad8f67ae7ccd441da7c0eedf80b9b885\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Transport Management Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a1b6fecfdf946eaab6c99ed482a9f9d\u0022\u003EBiofuel Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8cad4462e11442783e37c443ae61076\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee7abb6375b54dca8c49069117f6a2e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee7abb6375b54dca8c49069117f6a2e9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biofuel Bill be now read a second time. Let me first extend my thanks to the Local Government and Environment Committee. The committee worked hard and gave full consideration to the important matters raised in public submissions. The Biofuel Bill introduces a biofuel sales obligation and makes other legislative changes to provide for biofuels in the New Zealand market. The obligation will provide for greenhouse gas reductions in the transport sector, and will also reduce our dependence on oil. Since the bill was introduced to the House last year those objectives have become all the more important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESince that time the sustainability of biofuels has also come under significant scrutiny. The select committee made a number of recommendations to sharpen the focus of the bill on the sustainability of biofuels. That is provided by the principles of sustainability contained in new section 34GA(3) in new Part 3A, which is inserted by clause 9 of the bill. Principle 1 states: \u201CSustainable biofuels emit significantly less greenhouse gas over their life cycle than obligation engine fuel.\u201D This principle ensures that biofuels will provide a genuine contribution to greenhouse gas reductions. In the first instance, the bill requires a minimum reduction of 35 percent. Principle 2 refers to food production and states: \u201CSustainable biofuels do not compete with food production and are not grown on land of high value for food production.\u201D That principle recognises the concern that where biofuel crops are directly substituted for food production, that can increase food prices by decreasing food supply. Where food supply is maintained or even enhanced, however, that is not a concern. So by-products from food production\u2014like tallow for bio-diesel and rotational oilseed crops\u2014are expressly set out as meeting that test. The third principle states: \u201CThe production of sustainable biofuels does not reduce indigenous biodiversity or adversely affect land with high conservation value.\u201D That principle addresses concerns that increasing biofuel production can have negative impacts on the physical environment and, in particular, on biodiversity and precious ecosystems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFrom the beginning of the biofuel sales obligations, companies will be required to report on the sustainability of the biofuels they supply, and under new section 34GA the Minister of Energy \u201Cmust recommend the making of an Order in Council \u2026 as soon as practicable\u201D requiring biofuels that are sold towards the biofuel obligation to be consistent with the principles of sustainability. Under new section 34GA(4), if no recommendation has been made by 30 June 2009 the Minister of Energy must report to this House and explain why a recommendation has not been made, outline any alternative methods of ensuring qualifying biofuels are sustainable, and indicate when the associated recommendations will be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second major change relates to the proportion of biofuel that oil companies will be obliged to sell. The obligation now begins at 0.5 percent of total sales on an energy equivalence basis, rising in 0.5 percent increments annually to reach 2.5 percent by 2012. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of the time taken to carefully consider the bill, the commencement date has been changed to 1 October 2008. That reduces the period of the first obligation from 9 months to 3 months. There is no impact on subsequent periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOnce again, I thank the select committee for the work it has done on the bill, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022d078fbf1f0554e72ab4d5956e7b55b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d078fbf1f0554e72ab4d5956e7b55b20\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This is not just poor public policy\u2014it is awful. Why on earth would we want to impose substantial additional costs on the household users of fuel, at the very time when all the international evidence is that biofuels have a very dubious environmental benefit? The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment did not just say this bill should be amended; she told the Local Government and Environment Committee that it should be dropped. She even went further than that and said this bill will damage New Zealand\u2019s clean, green reputation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EJust a month or two ago an article in Time magazine, \u201CThe Clean Energy Scam\u201D, said that although it is hyped as an eco-friendly fuel, ethanol increases global warming, destroys forests, and inflates food prices. So why on earth are we subsidising it? New Zealand\u2019s very well-respected former Minister for the Environment, Simon Upton, wrote in the Dominion Post \u201Cthe road to hell is paved with biofuels\u201D. We have the 400-page report from the British House of Commons that asks the question \u201CAre biofuels sustainable?\u201D and overwhelmingly concludes that they are not; we have the report from the OECD Biofuels: Is the Cure Worse Than the Disease?; we have pleas from the World Food Programme; we have Oxfam submitting to the committee and pleading with this Parliament not to go down this track; and we even have the United Nations Secretary-General calling on nations to halt the passing of these sorts of laws because they are a hoax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere are two fundamental flaws in this bill. The first is that despite all that the Minister says about the sustainability standards, those standards do not come into effect until well after the compulsory requirement comes into place. If one ever wanted to have a bill where the cart is being put before the horse, we have it here in black and white. On 1 October, in just 27 days\u2019 time, it will be compulsory for fuel sold in New Zealand to have a component of biofuel in it. But the sustainability standard to ensure that that does any good is at least 9 months away, and I put it to this House that it will be many years more than that. You see, the European Union, which has been debating these same issues, has been trying to establish a standard for sustainability for 2 years, and it has not been able to get there. So why does this Clark-Peters Government suddenly believe that it can instantly get there\u2014that it can somehow get through those issues? Even the Government\u2019s own officials said it would take at least until 2011 to come up with a proper sustainability standard. So I ask the House why we are to have a compulsory requirement\u2014a nanny State, \u201Cthey know all\u201D approach\u2014before there is any sort of sustainability standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second key flaw is this: ethanol is provided with an exemption from excise tax. That means ethanol is being given a huge tax advantage over bio-diesel. We asked Government members, we asked the Minister, and we asked officials why they wanted to screw the scrum so hard in favour of ethanol over bio-diesel. The answer was blank. They said they would look at that issue some time in the future. Well, why on earth would we want to provide an incentive to import ethanol from Brazil, when there are very good reports that show that that product arises from and helps to drive the destruction of Amazonian forests? Why would we want to compel that? Why would we want to provide a tax incentive for that over, for instance, biofuels that are produced in New Zealand by converting agricultural by-products, such as waste fat from the meat industry, to biofuel? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EYou see, with this bill we are adding very substantial costs. If we can believe the Minister, he says there is no cost for consumers arising from this bill, because they would use biofuels anyway and these fuels are inexpensive. Well, I simply ask the Minister why he needs to compel their use. If it is economic, people will use them anyway. The idea that there is no cost for the consumer is about as straightforward as Winston Peters saying he has never received a donation from Mr Owen Glenn. The submissions heard by the select committee were that the oil companies say this requirement is likely to cost 7c per litre, and the officials said the cost would be about 2c a litre. Let us take the mid-range figure of 4c a litre; that is an extra $240 million a year. Why on earth, in the middle of a recession, would we want to impose extra costs of $240 million a year around biofuels, when there is an overwhelming international consensus that they are not the right way forward? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI put this to the House. We know that the biggest challenge New Zealand faces is around agricultural emissions, particularly from methane and nitrous oxide. We are spending $3 million a year on research in those areas, and the Biofuel Bill proposes to bank $240 million a year in terms of the cost to road users. I say to the Minister that this bill has got it awfully wrong. How can the Minister and Government members claim there is no cost to the consumer? If there is no cost, why do we need a law that compels people to comply with it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill represents another botched climate change policy. For 9 years we have seen emissions go up at record rates. We have seen huge growth in electricity emissions. We have seen more coal-produced electricity being used than at any time in New Zealand\u2019s history. We have seen the Projects to Reduce Emissions policy fall over. We have seen the negotiated greenhouse agreement policy fall over. We remember the promise of the billion-dollar surplus from Kyoto, and how it fell to pickle. We remember the policy announced on animal emissions levies. We have seen one botch-up after another, for 9 years, around climate change policy, but I have to say this Biofuel Bill is the very worst of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI challenge members opposite: why are they ignoring the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, whom they themselves supported? They appointed Jan Wright to that role. Her evidence to the select committee was absolutely damning, in terms of this bill. This bill represents the Government jumping on the bandwagon, just as the wheels are falling off. At the very least, there should be no compulsion to use biofuels until the actual biofuel standards are put into place. The idea in this legislation that we are going to impose on the fuel sector the cost of introducing infrastructure, without knowing what the sustainability standards are, is seriously flawed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill should not proceed. We should heed the warnings of the United Nations, the World Food Programme, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and every one of the other submitters who have made it plain that this is flawed legislation. Biofuels do have a role to play in respect of the challenge of climate change, but this compulsory legislation will impose costs for little environmental benefit, and, what is worse still, it runs the serious risk of contributing to deforestation and some of the huge difficulties that the world is facing, as we speak, in respect of food prices and their impact on the poorest people of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI can only conclude with the contribution from Oxfam, which said that in order to fuel our cars, we are going to take food from the mouths of the poor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002250f6018e870f41efb7438e0aa8859199\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250f6018e870f41efb7438e0aa8859199\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am tending to get a sense of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. Here we are, with another major climate change bill in the House, the Biofuel Bill, and we have had another speech from the National Party, which claims to support any kind of legislation or policy that reduces greenhouse gases, yet all we got was a speech full of excuses about why National could not vote for another climate change policy brought up by this Government. I say to the Hon Dr Nick Smith, who is a member of the Local Government and Environment Committee, which I chair, that I wonder why he did not listen to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment on the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill, which she said absolutely must go ahead, and why he is now accusing the Government of not listening to her on the Biofuel Bill. I suspect it is yet another story of what is good for the National Party being no good for anyone else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI say to the Hon Dr Nick Smith that obviously he has been very well influenced by the huge business lobby against biofuel and against this legislation. Obviously, he has been lobbied. I wonder whether any donations have gone into the Waitemata Trust from people who oppose this legislation. The select committee worked incredibly hard on this bill. We worked hard on it because we know the climate change issue is a reality for New Zealand, that this measure is doable for New Zealand, that some of it is very low-hanging fruit, and that if we put a bit of time and energy into sustainability standards and into making it clear which biofuels would qualify and which would not, we could do this. We are an agricultural and a horticultural nation. We have by-products from that. We have tallow, and we were told that China is already looking at lowering some of its trade barriers to American and Canadian tallow. We also have ethanol derived from whey, as a by-product of our dairy production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe heard the submitters who came before the select committee. As always, they were from both sides. We had the oil companies on one side, who did not want to do it at all, and on the other side we had the biofuel producers, who wanted us to go miles in the other direction, because they have an interest, too. It was the role of the select committee to look down the line and find a good compromise: one that is good for New Zealand and good for the environment. What response did we get from the National Party? Its response was that the free market would provide. Well, the free market has been fantastic for the environment over the last 30 or 40 years, has it not? It has been wonderful! The fact is that until this bill came into the House and was being seriously looked at, Mobil Oil did not have biofuels. Before the bill is even passed in the House it has now said it will go down that path, and that is because of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI thought it was astonishing that the Hon Dr Nick Smith said that because no one else has implemented this measure, New Zealand should never try to do it. The National Party believes that we should just accept that we are not as good as everyone else, that we cannot think for ourselves, and that we are not smart enough to come up with this kind of legislation. A group of European parliamentarians actually came here to speak to the Local Government and Environment Committee specifically to look at what we had done on this bill. The select committee worked hard. We worked long hours to try to come up with something that, indeed, the Europeans are also working on. In the Labour Party we say we will always try to do the best that we can, in the legislation in front of us, to benefit the people of New Zealand. The fact that Europe or America has not managed to do something is never an excuse for Labour members of Parliament to say we will not even try to do it, which is the excuse we had from the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI thank the officials who worked on this bill. When they walked into our select committee room for the first time we wondered whether they were interns, because they were so young and fresh-faced. But they were incredibly knowledgable and provided us with very timely advice. I was extremely impressed with the quality of their advice, and I thank them for it. I thank all the submitters who came along to the committee. They often faced very robust questioning, and I thank them for all the supplementary information they were able to provide, at very short notice, so that we could get on with our deliberation. I thank the members of the select committee. I thank the Green member Metiria Turei for all the work she did on the sustainability standards. I also thank the National members of the committee, who, despite declaring their hand pretty early on in the process and saying they were not going to vote for the bill, did stay and work hard with the committee in order to make sure we did all that we could do. I am sorry that they declared their hand as soon as they did. I believe that they might have been able to accept parts of the bill, but unfortunately they could not accept them because they had already stated they were going to vote against the bill before some of our deliberation had finished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Nick Smith raised a number of important points in his speech, and one of them was about the issue of the relative tax treatment of fuels. We tried very hard to work out whether that was something we could address. I believe that we genuinely agreed that it needed to be addressed properly, not as a tag-along to the Biofuel Bill. We stated clearly in the commentary on the bill that we believed as a committee that the treatment of ethanol as a fuel that has zero excise duty should end in 2012. We stated that in the commentary in order to send a clear signal. The National Party also believed, as we did, that a number of people had expected that that tax treatment would continue until 2012, and had made investment decisions based on that. So it would have been unfair of us to change that, and, if we had changed it, we would have needed to grandparent that zero excise duty for companies such as Gull Petroleum, which had believed that it would continue. We clearly stated in the bill that we thought not just biofuel but also other forms of fuel, such as compressed natural gas and liquefied petroleum gas, and electric cars should be dealt with in terms of the relative tax treatment of fuels for environmental purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBefore I finish I just want to touch on the issue of price. It is very, very difficult for us to guess what the price impact of this legislation may be, because there are many different variables. We do not know how the oil companies will implement their biofuel requirement. For example\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c3f9fc45e9432b9418a673f8d2c865\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You should know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c740e2ac4bbf4842bf1833bf7756aa93\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Dr Smith that we do not know because they are private companies, and we have left the bill very, very flexible because we believe that that is the best thing. We know that overall by 2012, of the total fuel sold in New Zealand, there will be a 2.5 percent biofuel component, and we have left it up to the people who sell that fuel to decide how they are going to get there. If we had not done that, Dr Smith would be yelling at us and saying this was a case of nanny State telling private companies what to do. We have said to the companies that they can decide on how to do it themselves. They can do it through the pumps across the whole country or just in Auckland, just in Wellington, or just in Christchurch, or they can sell 100 percent direct to customers, so that it does not even have to go through a service station\u2014they can get their reduction in that way. All of this will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229960ccf737f3434c83a0ea6bc679eb0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How much will this cost the consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e498cdf980740d88d31bbdaf4bc5c41\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, interestingly enough, Gull Petroleum, which already includes biofuel in its product, is cheaper than the rest of the oil companies. It is cheaper than the rest of the oil companies, and it already sells an ethanol blend. So for Dr Smith to stand up and say fuel will be 7c a litre more expensive, which is what the oil companies said it would be, is wrong. Another oil company said it would be 4c a litre dearer, but our officials told us that if they looked at recouping the entire cost of the infrastructure upgrades that may be required by oil companies, using the oil companies\u2019 figures the cost would come out as being no more than 0.2c to 0.4c a litre more expensive, and it might even be cheaper, than it is now, I tell Dr Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e56609401e249aa85bb9f23658f05da\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why make it compulsory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c87095d3c34d9f97d84712d6b1072e\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, because the free market has worked really well up till now, I tell Dr Smith. I know the National Party just thinks the invisible hand of the market will deliver for the environment, will deliver for poor people, will deliver for the hospital system, and will deliver for the education system. Dr Smith can just sit back and say he does not have to do anything, because the invisible hand of the market is doing it all for him. That makes it really easy to be a National Minister. But I am afraid that on this side of the House, Labour members believe in actually taking action against climate change, rather than sitting in an office as Dr Smith does, thinking of as many excuses as he can to vote against every single piece of climate change legislation that comes before this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWell, Dr Smith should be ashamed of himself, because he knows\u2014he was on the select committee with us\u2014that what he is saying is not true. Yet he will go out there and try to terrify the people of New Zealand. Dr Smith apparently knows what the exchange rate will do, what the price of oil will be, and what the price of ethanol will be\u2014all the things that will be relevant to the overall price of biofuel production in New Zealand. But Dr Smith does not know that. Apparently Dr Smith is saying that the National Party will never support a biofuel obligation unless it can be certain about the international price of oil, unless it knows what the exchange rate will be, and unless it knows exactly how the oil companies will implement that obligation. I say to Dr Smith that those are excuses, excuses, excuses\u2014again, again, again! The people of New Zealand can see through that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. I thank the select committee for all its hard work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00228a7d2fee4b9b4a50994cfe0b0d730cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a7d2fee4b9b4a50994cfe0b0d730cf6\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I will start off by saying that if anybody listened very closely to that last contribution from the member who has just resumed her seat, he or she would not have heard anything positive in regard to supporting this Biofuel Bill. One of the things we would have expected from the Government, and particularly from the chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee, Moana Mackey, is that they would have offered a whole lot of reasons\u2014good, valid reasons\u2014why this Parliament and this country should be supporting this legislation. But if people listened really closely to every word she said, they would have heard that it was all about attacking Dr Smith for what he said, attacking the fuel companies for what they said, and attacking other people for not saying the things the Government thought they should say. Therefore, there was nothing positive, at all, that would have persuaded anybody to want to support this bill. I would have thought that that member, at least, would come up with one or two reasons why this country should be embracing this sort of legislation. Unfortunately, there was nothing at all positive in her speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second point is that the whole reason this legislation is before the House is that the Prime Minister got out ahead of the game and decided to grab the hose from a fuel pump and put it into a car, and try to get a photo opportunity, while saying to everybody \u201CAnd this is what this Government is going to do. We\u2019re going to do all this stuff, introduce biofuels, and make everything better.\u201D But the Prime Minister did not even know where to put the nozzle. Actually, it was all about a photo opportunity, but suddenly officials and Government members all had to get in behind and support her, because she had gone out saying that this was what was going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what had not happened\u2014and this is the problem with this legislation and, indeed, with the Government\u2019s approach to this whole issue\u2014was the Government doing its homework. We just need to look at commentary from all over the place\u2014from everybody. What does the OECD Round Table on Sustainable Development say about biofuels? It says that they are unproven; it says that it is not certain about them. It does not know whether this is the way we should move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe United Kingdom\u2019s House of Commons Environmental Audit Committee report says that we should hang on a minute; we should just take our time on this\u2014that it has been around for a while but we are still not sure whether it is the right way to go. The G8 conference of legislators said the same thing. The United Kingdom\u2019s chief scientist, the World Food and Agriculture Organization, the Royal Society, the World Bank, and the Secretary-General of the United Nations have all said that there are some real problems about this stuff. It is a difficult way in which to approach a fuel issue. All these authorities are saying that there are real question marks over this issue, yet this Government has decided to proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI draw the House\u2019s attention to two other people who have made comment. The first is the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. One would have thought that if anybody was going to get out there and say \u201CYep! We are on the right track; this is the way to go. This legislation is going to hit it on the nail.\u201D, then it would have been the commissioner, but she did not. I will read to the House a couple of the statements she has made, which I think are absolutely important for us to take into account: \u201CInternational concern about the sustainability of biofuels and their true environmental and economic impacts has heated up considerably in recent months\u2014which signals a need for caution.\u201D Biofuels are seen as a way of achieving both lower carbon dioxide emissions and energy security, but Dr Wright does not believe that the mechanisms allowed for in the bill will deliver those two goals. There is the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment saying that this legislation is on the wrong track. \u201CBiofuels appear to be carbon-neutral, because plants absorb carbon dioxide (CO2) as they grow, and this is equal to the CO2 emitted when the fuel is burned. However this does not account for the CO2 emitted during cultivation and processing into fuel. Lifecycle assessments of a wide range of biofuels shows large variation in CO2 emissions across fuels and, in some cases, across countries,\u201D says Dr Wright. \u201CEthanol from corn in the US, for example, is a very poor performer, with total CO2 emissions close to those of diesel.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWell, we have to say to ourselves that if the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is asking those sorts of questions on this legislation, then surely this Parliament should sit up and take notice. She has said that she is very uncertain about this Parliament and this nation proceeding with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI also draw the House\u2019s attention to a report of the Ministry of Economic Development, its briefing paper to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I have to say that it was astonishing to start reading through this paper that that committee put before this House. These are the Government\u2019s own advisers talking about this, and they are talking about the principle of sustainable biofuels: \u201CAfter reviewing a number of potential principles provided by officials, and suggestions from within the Committee, there does not yet appear to be a consensus opinion. In this sense debate in the Committee has reflected international deliberations on biofuel sustainability. While one might know it when one sees it, sustainability is difficult to define. \u2026 At its meeting on Thursday 29 May, the Committee asked officials to provide advice on how principles can provide the best possible direction to the making of biofuel sustainability requirements.\u201D They went on to say that they do not know. They are not sure. They cannot convince us, actually, that it can happen. And these are the Minister\u2019s own officials who are telling the committee that. This paper, if it has not come to the attention of the House, needs to come to its attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe next thing people should be concerned about is the issue of impact on food. We all know that we have a major issue around the world about food security. It will be one of the major factors of debate as we move forward, around the world, in the next 20 or 30 years. After the Second World War we had food supplies that without producing any more food would have lasted more than a year. We would have been able to feed ourselves. Currently, the food supply is measured in days, not months. What is now starting to happen, which I think is an absolute disgrace, is that some countries in Europe are asking countries in Africa to grow and export food to countries in Europe that will turn it into biofuels, while the people in those very same southern African countries are starving. Quite honestly, that is an absolute disgrace and it should not be allowed to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFinally, I come to the point that Dr Nick Smith made in his address, which is the issue of price. The previous member to speak, Moana Mackey, talked about the fact that there is debate and argument about whether there will be a cost. What she was not able to tell us was that there would not be. She said that there was some disagreement. She said the Government did not know whether it would be 7c or 1.5c, and that it was not sure what it was. She said that different streams of advice gave the Government different levels of increased costs. But what she did not say, and could not say, was that there would be less cost. We all know that this legislation will impose more costs on this country; it will put more costs on to travellers in this country. The fact is that, whether or not we like it, this sort of legislation, with the infrastructure needed to provide it, will unquestionably cost the transport sector in this country a lot of dollars. So when members of this Government stand there and say: \u201CYep, we are going to move forward.\u201D, when all the evidence is against it, including the advice of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and its own advisers, and when so many of the submitters have said that we should not do it, then I say to this House that we have to take note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002233d5572063ec40029a50a4214036d4fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233d5572063ec40029a50a4214036d4fb\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E When this Biofuel Bill emerged and was introduced in the House some time ago, we had significant concerns. I could perhaps go even further and say that we had major concerns. Those concerns were strengthened when we read the submission from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. She summarised at the end of her submission to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and recommended that the bill did not proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOur concerns revolved around a number of issues. First and foremost, we did not see why New Zealand should be a world leader in the adoption of biofuels, but apparently we are not. Biofuels have already been adopted in the USA, Brazil, Canada, most European countries, Australia, China, India, and Thailand. All those countries apparently use biofuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe second concern we had was the possibly adverse effect on car engines and the cost for motorists. We thought that motorists might well have to have their car engines modified at some expense, but we were informed that modifications would not be necessary for petrol or diesel vehicles using low-level biofuel blends. Petrol engines tuned correctly for use with ordinary petrol would not normally exhibit any problems when using bio-ethanol petrol blends of up to 3 percent. So that knocked that concern on the head. We were concerned that bio-diesel in a diesel-powered vehicle would clog and not flow properly, but we were told that that concern was needless. One organisation involved in producing bio-diesel told us that tests had been done on it, and it had not been found to alter what the organisation called the cold-flow properties of the original mineral. In other words, that was a concern we did not need to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe were concerned that productive land in New Zealand would be used to grow crops to make ethanol. I am told that the select committee modified the bill to ensure that that would not happen. So that was another concern knocked on the head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe were told that the new infrastructure costs would add significantly to the cost of a litre of petrol or diesel. But we were told that the select committee had looked at this issue at quite some length\u2014that is as I understand it; we were not represented on the select committee\u2014and the figures bandied around to us were anywhere between 4c to 7c a litre. But as the member who resumed his seat some time ago said\u2014and I think that this is in the select committee\u2019s report\u2014it is estimated that the cost will be somewhere between 0.2c to 0.4c a litre, and it might be even less than that. Biofuels might even reduce the cost of fuel. That was another concern knocked on its head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EFinally, we had the concern that John Carter raised\u2014that somewhere overseas, in Africa or wherever, people are growing crops to produce ethanol for the world market. That matter is of concern, but it is happening anyway. It will happen whether or not New Zealand buys into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe have looked at these issues as comprehensively as we have been able to, and we believe that this bill should proceed. We note that the select committee recommended that the percentage of ethanol in petrol should be 0.5 percent. It will reduce from 0.53 percent this year to 0.5 percent, and then go up in increasing increments of 0.5 percent for the next 4 years to reach a figure of 2.5 percent in 2012. That is a reduction on what the original bill said; I think the percentage had been 3.4 percent in 2012. So we think, all in all, that this bill has taken the concerns into consideration and has addressed them. New Zealand First will support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022de3526b3d1074f1391552c1e0cfbbf15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de3526b3d1074f1391552c1e0cfbbf15\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The whole world is on a mission to move its transport systems off fossil fuels and on to renewable sources of energy, and we do not have a lot of time to do it because this is driven by two things. It is driven, firstly, by rising oil prices, which indicate that oil production has probably already peaked and will continue to decline, and that prices will rise from hereon, and it is driven, secondly, by climate change, where transport is a major contributor. In New Zealand, 44 percent of our carbon dioxide emissions are from transport, and we have to get that level down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EBiofuels can make a small contribution to this. Nobody here is claiming that biofuels can be the whole answer; in fact, no one thing will be the whole answer. The future will be a jigsaw of sensible, effective, sustainable technologies that fit together in order to give us some mobility in a climate and oil - constrained world. So we need to build capacity for the biofuels that New Zealand can produce sustainably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EHow would we make that happen? I will read to members from a letter I received last month: \u201CFollowing the passage of the Biofuel Bill into law we expect to shortly thereafter announce our intention to initiate the construction of our planned bio-diesel production plant at a site close to our present pilot plant. The initial capacity will be 20 million litres annually, but we intend to double that capacity within a year or two. Our plant is designed to process 100 percent New Zealand - sourced tallow, which is recognised as the most environmentally sustainable feedstock \u2026 leading, if you include the rendering plant as well, to a greenhouse gas reduction of 68 percent.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIf one listens to National members, one would ask the question: why will those producers not do that unless the bill is passed? There are answers. Those producers will not do it without this bill being enacted because, first of all, they would be exposed to competition from unsustainable imports of cheap bio-diesel\u2014which comes from palm oil grown in South-east Asia, where people have cleared the rainforest to do it\u2014and we have to put some standards in place or no one will be prepared to produce sustainable biofuel in New Zealand. That is the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe second point is that everybody has been talking today about what this measure will cost. The fact is that the cost of oil is just hovering around a threshold at the moment, where for some of the time bio-diesel is no more expensive than oil and for some of the time it is. We know that at $140 a barrel for oil, bio-diesel does not add to the cost of diesel; at $105 a barrel, it does, somewhat. So without legislation, without an obligation, and by leaving it to the market, there is a stop-go policy of cheap imports that come in when the oil price goes high, and that do not come in when the oil price goes low. It builds no capacity in New Zealand\u2014it does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EPeople talk about infrastructure; the National Party loves to talk about infrastructure. Part of the infrastructure that we need is the capacity to make, blend, and distribute small quantities of biofuel to eke out our petroleum, and this is the way we will get it. We need to build that industry here. We have resources. We have tallow as the obvious main one. We have some whey, and that is already being turned into ethanol for some purposes. We have other agricultural and food wastes. We have oilseed rape, which can be grown in rotation with other crops, thereby improving the general productivity of the rotational crops, and that is happening on a small scale now. In the future we will have algae, which are capable of producing bio-diesel while growing on sewage ponds. What could be more sustainable than that? We will also have wood wastes turned into ethanol, or potentially into bio-diesel. The quantities that the bill obliges on the industry are carefully scaled to match what can be produced locally from local resources. That is their purpose. We actually reduced quantities a bit from what they were when the bill was introduced, just to make sure that we were not overwhelmed by imports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is very easy to stand here in the House and mislead people who are listening in, by saying what a terrible thing biofuels are, how this bill will lead to world hunger, and how it will lead to lack of biodiversity. The Green Party was the first to raise these issues. At the very beginning, before the bill was even introduced to the House or mooted, we told the Government that we would not support its proposed Biofuel Bill\u2014and we had not even seen it at that stage\u2014unless it had a sustainability clause in it. We made it absolutely clear that, firstly, it had to make serious carbon reductions compared with petroleum, and of course corn from ethanol clearly does not do that. Secondly, it had to not compete with food production, because in the unequal market world that we have, where the stomachs of the poor have to compete with the SUVs of the rich, the stomachs of the poor have no chance of winning that battle. So that had to be ruled out. Thirdly, we had to rule out bio-diesel that compromised biodiversity by clearing rain forests, and so forth. It was a high test, and the Government accepted that challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIf we do not pass this bill, we will end up in New Zealand with imported biofuels that do all of those evil things. There is nothing at the moment to stop bio-diesel from South East Asian rainforest clearance coming into New Zealand. There is nothing at the moment to stop biofuels grown on land that used to grow food for the poor from coming into New Zealand. There is nothing even to stop the US\u2019s outrageous ethanol from corn from coming into New Zealand. That is what this bill does, and for National members to stand there and say they are on the side of sustainability but they want to preserve the status quo, where all of these biofuels that are destroying people\u2019s food and biodiversity can come into New Zealand unhindered, is absolutely outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI heard the argument that the officials did not know how to write a sustainability clause. Well, I do not actually believe that, but the fact is that the Greens have written it for them. And it is a good one. Let us look at what it says. It establishes the principles of sustainable biofuels. First of all, they emit significantly less greenhouse gas over their life cycle than obligation engine fuel\u2014that is, petroleum. Secondly, they do not compete with food production and are not grown on land of high value for food production. That is a high test. Thirdly, the production of sustainable biofuels does not reduce indigenous biodiversity or adversely affect land with high conservation value. Those principles are as clear as one can get. There will be regulations under the bill to give effect to that clause, and I have no doubt at all that in 9 months our officials can write those regulations and get them through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENational members know that the scare stories they have been telling in the House today cannot happen in New Zealand under this legislation. They are pretending otherwise, and I think that that is a wicked thing to do. The core message is that some biofuels are very bad indeed, and we will not have them in New Zealand. Some biofuels are good, and we will get them to happen. Is that actually too hard for people to understand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI totally agree with the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, who says that the first step we should be taking is to reduce our use of transport fuel\u2014to use our cars less and to use rail and public transport, and cycling and walking, more, and not just to ask what we shall put in the tank. She was right. She gave that advice to the select committee, and I applaud her for doing so. That is why the Green Party continues to campaign on all of those transport alternatives. But when she gave advice that the bill should not proceed because of sustainability issues, she did not know that the Green Party had set these conditions. She had not seen any of the drafting that we were doing with the Minister and then in the select committee. She was commenting on the bill as introduced, which had a placeholder clause on sustainability that I said in my first reading speech was merely a placeholder clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ESo this bill is a no-brainer. It is a small start to getting a sustainable fuel industry going in New Zealand, under very, very strict conditions, and the whole House ought to be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc0265a0d07d460d9302b547f2185150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc0265a0d07d460d9302b547f2185150\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E In the M\u0101ori Party we live by the belief that our people are our greatest wealth. In thinking of the Biofuel Bill our thoughts inevitably turn to the late Mountford Te Mana o Te Rangi Retemeyer. Monte was one of those men whose footprints are everywhere. Deeply committed to the marae of Maket\u016B, Parawera, \u0100ruka, and Te Korah\u0101, he also had time to be chairman of the Waikato District M\u0101ori Council, vice-chair of Tainui-Kawhia Forestry Incorporation, director of Protac Investments, trustee for Aramiro Ahu Whenua Trust, chairman of the Kawhia Moana Harbour Committee, chairman of the Parawera Maori Culture Group, and to be involved with schools, councils, prisons, and, in fact, every aspect of community life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBut it was Monte Retemeyer\u2019s role as chairman of the major Waikato-based incorporation Taharoa C Block that has particularly inspired me. Taharoa C Block is a multimillion-dollar incorporation, with about 1,500 shareholders, set up under Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993. So when Taharoa C Block presented to the Local Government and Environment Committee on the Biofuel Bill, its submission bears the legacy of Monte Retemeyer. It is a submission that is worth listening to. Taharoa C Block told the select committee that the bill has the potential to make an important contribution to combating climate change. That is advice that it is well equipped to give. Taharoa C Block is in a partnership arrangement with Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu, focusing on M\u0101ori-owned land as the context for exploring the potential of developing a sustainable biofuel supply. If anyone knows much about the quality of some of our M\u0101ori-owned land, it would be evident that most of that land is pretty marginal for food production. So it will be of great interest to see how that project fares. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe project, funded by the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology to the tune of $4 million, involves a partnership with fuel company Chevron Oil as a principal industry partner. It involves growing plants for bio-diesel feedstock that do not require the use of valuable agricultural land. Taharoa C Block in the north and Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu in the south will provide the technical input and the field trial management that are needed to get the project going. The focus is to apply a variety of ecological and agronomical engineering methods to the production of affordable, low-impact fuels that are also ethically sound. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt all sounds a bit too good to be true, but Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu, alongside Taharoa C Block, sees the value of being involved in an entirely new and sustainable industry that opens up opportunities for grassroots M\u0101ori landowners in Te Wai Pounamu, the South Island. It is not as though either entity is a newcomer to innovation. Taharoa C Block has already been exploring other sources of renewable energy through its wind power generation and energy crops. Both organisations have been concerned that the environment must not be damaged in the process and, just as important as that, they are keen to ensure that they are not putting in more energy than comes out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThat hits at perhaps the greatest issue with biofuel production. The simple reason for biofuel market failure is the rising cost of fossil fuels\u2014crude oil and natural gas\u2014and the pervasive impact those fuels have on the entire economy, including biofuel production. It is all a question of balance. Modern agriculture is an industrialised system, and large-scale biofuel production is dependent on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBut as the M\u0101ori Party has consistently presented to the House, it is essential that when we focus efforts in one area we do not compromise another area. Environment and Conservation Organisations of New Zealand Inc.\u2014a natural alliance of some 65 groups with a concern for the environment\u2014presented such concerns to the select committee. It warned the committee that it is essential that the development of biofuels does not cause a further loss of biodiversity or result in increased greenhouse emissions. It was able to share with the committee developments from the European Union, which has announced that it may ban imports of certain biofuels that are produced unsustainably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIf we go further down the biofuels track, it is essential that New Zealand does not accept biofuels from sources that exacerbate the destruction of rainforests or result in a net increase in greenhouse emissions. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Dr Jan Wright, as has already been said in this House, described the international context of the debate around the sustainability of biofuels, which has, in her words, \u201Cheated up immensely\u201D. She urged that this bill not proceed, being particularly concerned about the impacts of importing biofuels while turning a blind eye to the hugely damaging environmental impacts that are occurring in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia, which have been referred to earlier. Dr Wright\u2019s key concern was that importing biofuels would be inconsistent with our clean, green image. So we return to Taharoa C Block and Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu for our motivation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe critical question, then, is to assess how well the bill will deliver on the two goals of reducing carbon dioxide emissions and increasing the security of our supply of transport energy. The select committee has recommended the Minister issue, through two very comprehensive Orders in Council, requirements to specify that biofuels must not contravene sustainability principle 2 regarding competition with food production or greenhouse gas emissions. The select committee has suggested that the bill will be enhanced by including a methodology to assess life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions from engine fuels. It also recommends the establishment of a methodology to assess the effects of the production of a biofuel on food production and for assessing whether those effects amount to competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere are other elements to this bill that we are pleased to see included. The select committee has recommended the insertion of a mechanism for recognising particular land, including land outside New Zealand, as having high value for food production or conservation. It has also introduced a methodology for assessing the effects of the product of a biofuel on indigenous biodiversity and on land that is of high conservation value. Those are all new initiatives that help us to have confidence that biofuels can be offered tentative support. We are, however, always conscious that on their own, biofuels will make only a small contribution to reducing emissions and to contributing positively to reducing the price of oil and addressing the supply problems of the future. As oil prices rise, the contribution to energy costs of biofuels will lessen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESome will argue that the use of bio-diesels will not result in any fuel price increases, and we are all of the view that the issue still remains of finding new ways to reduce energy consumption by living differently. Conventional economics cannot fix that problem; industrial capitalism as promoted by our major parties, including policies based on building more roads, will not lead into a low-energy future. How we utilise our natural resources in a sustainable, environmentally considerate manner is critical in ensuring that all New Zealanders have access to affordable energy resources in a world where shortages will mean escalating prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFinally, I say there are many and varied ways of looking at new ways to reduce energy consumption. We in the M\u0101ori Party promote the further development of cheap, free, regular, reliable, and frequent public transport, of telecommuting, of fully connected off-road tracks, and of walkways. We have supported improvements to the rail infrastructure in order for it to deliver a better service, and thereby reduce the number of cars on the road. Ultimately it is up to us to play our part in reducing our dependence upon over 500,000 everyday oil-based items, by developing strategies to reuse, recycle, repair, respect, and replace items, and to trade locally. It is up to us to tread carefully in the footprints left by people such as Mountford Te Mana o Te Rangi Retemeyer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill, as we support us all, in order for people to live differently, to reduce their carbon dioxide emissions, and to look for other sources of energy supply. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9da090da3c34b5e8ff22a71c8ec4c8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9da090da3c34b5e8ff22a71c8ec4c8b\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It surprises me greatly, and I suspect it will astound the Greens even more, to be able to say that we find ourselves in virtually total agreement with the comments that Jeanette Fitzsimons made a little earlier about the Biofuel Bill. This bill is not a silver bullet, but it is a small step forward, and we believe it is a useful step forward that deserves to be supported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI was interested in the quotation that Jeanette Fitzsimons read, because it reminded me of a number of meetings I have had of late with people and companies that are interested in having a domestic biofuel industry. The message she quoted was very similar to the message they had been giving me in those meetings. It was, essentially, that there was a need for some certainty; some significant investment decisions were pending based on the fate of this bill. There was certainly a need to get this matter resolved, and there was also an issue to ensure that a domestic industry based around our capacity to use tallow was able to be secured and that provisions would be put in place to prevent the potential importation into New Zealand of product from unsustainable sources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EA number of those matters have been mentioned already. The concern being raised at that time was the absence in this bill as introduced of a mechanism that would prevent the importation of product that was adverse to the sustainability interests that biofuels are ostensibly about promoting, and that that would not make it possible to develop a competitive industry in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI was interested, too, because it had bothered me to hear earlier references to the fact that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment was opposed to this bill, to hear of the sequence of the Parliamentary Commissioner\u2019s report and the subsequent amendment to the bill regarding the introduction of a sustainability clause. I think that makes sense and it puts the Parliamentary Commissioner\u2019s comments into their proper perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBecause of the introduction of those provisions, which make it clear that issues relating to the food supply, biodiversity protection, and the likely importation of some quite dangerous product into New Zealand would be addressed and that we could look with some confidence to what was available domestically, we took the view that this bill was worth supporting more than it was worth opposing. We had not made the call to oppose it, but we were getting to the stage of thinking that some of its measures would not be as environmentally desirable as they had been portrayed, and that, therefore, this might be one of those things that look good on paper but was unworkable in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill that has emerged\u2014and I acknowledge the discussions we were able to have with the Minister at critical stages\u2014I think addresses the concerns that reasonable people have about the way in which this measure is being advanced. Therefore, it is appropriate to support its further passage. Those reasonable views are not some wild-eyed exposition of the fact that biofuels are a saviour to us all, or that the advent of these products would move us away completely from our dependence on oil-based products or other alternatives. But there is a recognition of the possibility that a market niche could be developed in New Zealand, particularly given the level of tallow in this country, to give us some alternative and to perhaps just spread out a little more the range of products available. This has to be handled in a sensitive way and also with a degree of precision, so that key investment decisions can be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe message I distinctly recall receiving from a number of the potential investors\u2014and I note that one has already gone by the wayside\u2014was that unless Parliament proceeded to send the signal in relatively good time, this would simply be theoretical, and there would be no capacity to develop a domestically based industry. As a result of that we would be totally reliant on an imported product, with all of the implications that have been discussed in other addresses this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOn that basis I think this bill is a prudent step forward and is one worth supporting. It is not perfect in every respect. Some issues will need to be resolved as the regime it introduces unfolds. There is clearly an issue about the fact that the bill takes effect in October, but there is a window until July of next year when the sustainability standard comes into force. That is a practical step, as I understand it, to get over the fact that certain transitional steps are under way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe challenge I think the House faces, and why we come down on the side of supporting the bill, is that we either make a stand on this issue at this time, given the interest there is and the capacity in the New Zealand economy to make some movement, or we effectively give it away as an option for this country. On that basis we made the call to support this bill. We think that it is the right decision, and we believe that although there may well need to be adjustments as the bill takes effect in order to put in place a more viable long-term regime, it is important to make a start at this point. That is why we are voting for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u002295cc9ad75f454a329594a21a18392bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295cc9ad75f454a329594a21a18392bb9\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Of course we all like the idea of biofuels. All New Zealanders are keen to see a cleaner and greener New Zealand. The vast majority of the public are concerned about climate change issues\u2014we are concerned\u2014but we do not really want to change our lifestyles, so we would be absolutely delighted if a simple change of fuel could solve some of these problems. If only life was so simple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI have a question for the House. What do the OECD Round Table on Sustainable Development, the UK House of Commons Environmental Audit Committee report, the G8 conference of legislators, the UK\u2019s chief scientist, the World Food Organisation, the UK Royal Society, the World Bank, and the United Nations Secretary-General all have in common? What do those august bodies have in common? They are all respected international organisations that comment on world issues and world policies. Several of them are specialist green organisations, and they, along with the New Zealand Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, have all expressed serious concerns about biofuels and any biofuel obligation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBut this Labour Government thinks it knows best. This Labour Government wants to ram through this Biofuel Bill, despite the reservations of all those world experts. The Labour Government thinks it knows best. The Labour Government wants to ram through the Biofuel Bill, despite the fact that it will add increasing costs to all New Zealanders and that the environmental return is very debatable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere are serious costs to the introduction of biofuels. There is some debate over what those costs are. The chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee tells us that she does not know what they are. She does not really have much idea, but the bill will still be passed. There is debate over these costs, and the best estimates we have are somewhere between 1.5c a litre and 7c a litre. So even if we take a mid-point range, the cost of the biofuels obligation will result in an increase to the New Zealand public to the tune of about $240 million. New Zealanders might be prepared to pay that, because we know that they are keen to see the country being more clean and more green. They might be prepared to pay that, but only if they are sure there will be some benefit, and even the world\u2019s experts cannot guarantee that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWhen we are making decisions about new green initiatives, we need to prioritise the things that will give us the most bang for our buck. Members should consider other planned environmental spending. For example, there is solar water heating, and we are putting $4 million aside for that; maybe research into geothermal energy or even tidal energy, and we are putting away $1 million each for that; or perhaps research into how we can reduce greenhouse gases from animals, and we are putting $5 million into that. Members can compare that spending with the $240 million for biofuels\u2014the spend for biofuels is huge. What could we achieve if we spent even half of that $240 million on doing some other environmental initiatives with a better pay-off? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EIn saying that, I also say that I support the development of biofuels. In my previous life as an Environment Canterbury councillor, I was involved with the trialling of biofuels on the Christchurch City bus fleet. We undertook a trial that proved both tallow and reused oil-based biofuels would work very well in the city fleet. In fact, they worked so well that one company, Leopard Coachlines, decided to use biofuels permanently. It decided to use a 5 percent blend. Then came the problem, the problem we are all foreseeing with this Biofuel Bill: the availability of feedstock became the issue. We all talk about tallow today, which is sold on the international market. The increased global demand for tallow has meant that the cost of tallow feedstock has become prohibitive for biofuel manufacturing and for this bus company. The bus company was caught between a rock and hard place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EOne of the aims of having a public transport system is to provide a more environmentally friendly method of getting people around the city. The more buses there are, the less congestion there is and the fewer harmful emissions there are. But if bus fares increase because of the use of a cleaner fuel, the service becomes less attractive, and the environment suffers. It was a difficult balance for the bus company to make, but in the end they are no longer using biofuels, and that is a real shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EAs the National spokesperson on waste, I am particularly interested in the new technologies being developed to manufacture biofuels from waste products\u2014the so-called second-generation biofuels. Producing biofuels from waste is a fantastic idea, because one gets double the environmental benefit. It avoids the horrible downside of the world\u2019s present focus on biofuels, which is that biofuels stock is being grown instead of food. It is a supply and demand problem, so any of the rules we put around this can only mitigate, not solve, the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe fact that biofuels stock is being grown instead of food has sent food costs spiralling up and out of control. The horrible downside we have seen is starving people rioting across the world. The horrible downside means that wealthy car owners can have cleaner fuel, but desperate people, who could never even imagine owning a car let alone buying biofuels, are starving because they cannot afford food for themselves or for their families. We cannot allow our demands for biofuels to destroy other people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe use of waste as a feedstock for biofuels is a great idea, because it cleans up the environment as well. During the last few months I have visited several biofuel manufacturing projects focusing on waste. One is in Blenheim. The Aquaflow plant is producing bio-diesel from algae growth in Blenheim\u2019s sewage ponds\u2014bio-diesel from nutrients that are polluting our environment, bio-diesel from a very plentiful waste product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EI have also seen projects that involve the digesting of dairy effluent from dairy sheds to provide a fuel source. We all know that the effective management of dairy effluent is essential if we are to be able to control the nitrate levels in ground water and streams, so producing biofuels from dairy effluent is a further environmental bonus. Other groups are working with wood waste, industrial waste, and green matter. The bottom line is that all these projects are a better use of resources than growing biofuel feedstock. All these projects have dual benefits\u2014cleaner fuel but also the recovery of resources that would otherwise pollute the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ERight now we again have an environmental bill in this House that is on the right track, but it just has not been very well-thought-out. The basic idea is good, but although National supports the use of biofuels, we are also very aware of the pitfalls of this legislation. These are perverse environmental effects, unacceptably high costs, and international humanitarian ramifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226a81c0f884644e21b5086b3bba47de61\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Biofuel Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5442139f2084f7da6b02a85ab985573\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229cbb546320014b3f98ac03a5d0bd30be\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014Attendance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd58eb96b37749ca970e804c9fa5512f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd58eb96b37749ca970e804c9fa5512f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I bring to the attention of the House that the chairman of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has called an urgent meeting of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee tomorrow. Unfortunately, not a lot of people on this side of the House can be at that meeting, because it does not fall on the usual day that we meet, and members of the select committee have other select committee business and other issues to attend to. I am wondering what the Speaker\u2019s view of that would be. It would have been all right if we had had notice of the meeting, but we did not have any notice; it has come out of the blue. Mr Deputy Speaker, I would appreciate your view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44733fe046e42ada5a04fc9defbd629\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My view is that I will digest the matter for the moment and give you an answer very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b16bc261604948299524e74ece709be7\u0022\u003EBiofuel Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d62e93f83954fbb93635e7264adaf0b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002246f4bd1ab2cd4b2e9b5665c0209dd911\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Act 1989\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002242cf799546914104ac17233936b6b728\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242cf799546914104ac17233936b6b728\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 1 includes clauses 3 to 17. The debate on Part 1 includes debate on schedules 1 and 1A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e29e09eeb056463caf94b09ded9fff7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e29e09eeb056463caf94b09ded9fff7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E The great disappointment with this Biofuel Bill is that this Clark-Peters Government is ignoring all of the international evidence in respect of concern about biofuels. We are asked to believe that the OECD is wrong, that the United Nations is wrong, that the World Health Organization is wrong, that the British House of Commons is wrong, that New Zealand\u2019s own Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is wrong, and that the only one who has it right is David Parker. Well, the Government is mistaken. Rushing through under urgency this flawed bill, which will impose significant extra costs on New Zealand consumers at a time when they can least afford it, and for very little environmental gain, is flawed, bad public policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe first key question I have for the Government is this: why impose a compulsion, a nanny State \u201Cyou must do\u201D, before putting in place a sustainability standard? Why on earth compel every person who buys liquid fuels to include in his or her purchase a component of biofuel, when the Government has not sorted out its biofuels sustainability standard? I think I know exactly why. It is because, after 9 years of this Government, our greenhouse gas emissions have gone up in every single one of those years. New Zealand has one of the worst records in the world in terms of increased greenhouse gas emissions, and in a desperate last-minute bid, a few weeks before the election, the Government wants to try to get some climate change policy on the record in a hurry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd8d49e0736140999f124b460ccb8c30\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Nick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbacb0e57e1a4f45bda65ff5827f1b47\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is it, I say to Pete Hodgson. That is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255898c4004c4439fa8cf1237a41cd9b4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the rest of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271edc49461e54394aa2f672c3df2e34d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the thing on which I would challenge Mr Pete Hodgson\u2014the guy who went around New Zealand saying we should ratify the Kyoto Protocol, because we would make a billion dollars\u2014[Interruption] I say to Mr Hodgson that I have spoken to the officials, and he misled Parliament; he knew that New Zealand did not have a surplus, and he fibbed and he told porkies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bbc3c15131f4711932afd812435b9ca\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Dr Nick Smith has just advised Parliament that he knows that I misled Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d11cde58bfc94a43bf2bff57dd32df43\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc0a041ce14439ba472a247474c703f\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: And he has just said that is right. Not only is that remark out of order but it is flat wrong, and I invite him to withdraw and apologise for it. It is entirely out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14ede28b1ea40189f44bc400bfc9e5c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has requested that the member withdraw and apologise, and I would ask him to do that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022413c56c6820e46fbbeb63bf0ab04ccc5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. It is a matter of record that for 12 months before Minister Pete Hodgson came clean about the mess this Government had made around Kyoto policy, Ministry for the Environment officials advised him that the numbers that he was telling the public were untrue\u2014were false. I would be happy to table the emails and the facts to back up my assertion about that scandal involving Pete Hodgson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EComing back to the Biofuel Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227015d0625223428db23512128fa07daa\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Go right ahead. You\u2019re just making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7459a50a3fe4e0b9b42ea2f68b4ee9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, did the member claim that New Zealand stood to make a billion dollars from Kyoto?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a314767db64210a90caa1b45482598\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dafbf469c6a243ca9e2e83cd9ca208e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did. He got it awfully wrong, and officials advised him at least 12 months before he came clean that he was continuing to express a view that we had a surplus when we did not. That is the sort of snaky behaviour, I say to Pete Hodgson, that we have come to expect from this Government. Whether it is Owen Glenn and his donations to this Government, or whether it is Kyoto, the dishonesty that this Clark-Peters Government now displays is a tragedy for New Zealand, and is one of the reasons there will be a change of Government in a few weeks\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Government says we should not worry about the big global debate around sustainability, because the Government has put some principles in Part 1. But what is the use of principles if they do not result in regulation? The real flaw in this bill is this: why should we compel people to use biofuels before the sustainability standard comes into place? Can any member of the Government or any of the parties that are supporting this bill answer that very basic question? Why compel the use of biofuels before one has a sustainability standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43cbc1e0ef746ce9ebe27fb4d58c57a\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Because they told us in their submissions that they wanted to know what would be in those sustainability standards, so that they could plan ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267451ee0dc4d46d995fac6fe3db8f945\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, is silent, but we have the chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee commenting. The officials have said that it will take till 2011 to get a sustainability standard. That is what they advised us in their papers to the committee. So I ask the chairperson of the committee and the Minister why on earth they would want to compel people to use biofuels before then. This is nanny State saying we must do something without it being really sure that there will be an environmental benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhat is really ridiculous about this provision is that there will be a substantive cost\u2014the select committee heard it is about $130 million\u2014in that the fuel companies will have to put in place the infrastructure to be able to deal with the different types of biofuels. Whether it is bio-diesel, which has particular technical issues around it being cold, so there is a need to avoid blockages, or whether it is ethanol, in terms of it being water absorbent, an investment of about $130 million in infrastructure will be required. But before one invested in that infrastructure, would not one want to know which biofuels are OK and which ones are not? The madness, the absolute madness, is that the Government is going to require the introduction of biofuels before the standard is in place. That is unforgivable; it is mad public policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EA further issue is this. Why is the Government providing a huge skewing of the scrum towards ethanol over bio-diesel? The Government says that, yes, it acknowledges there is a problem. There is no logic to it providing a 42c a litre advantage to the importing of ethanol from Brazil compared with bio-diesel made in New Zealand out of tallow\u2014no good reason at all. The Government accepts that, but it says it will put off sorting out that issue until 2012. What nonsense! Why would one introduce a compulsory biofuels requirement today, when one acknowledges that the tax rules significantly advantage ethanol over bio-diesel for no good environmental reason, and then say: \u201COh, we can\u2019t sort that out now; we\u2019ll put it off until 2012.\u201D? I tell the Minister that that is not good enough. He should sort out the tax issues and the sustainability issues now, before introducing the compulsory requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI will be asking the Committee to support a very simple, straightforward amendment to put the sustainability standard before the compulsory requirement. I want any member of the Committee to please advise why Parliament would not want to do that. Why would we not want to put the standard before the compulsion? The silence is deafening; the silence is absolutely deafening. I tell members that there is only one reason for not doing that, and it is political\u2014straight politics. It is because this Clark-Peters Government continually puts its own political interests ahead of what is right for New Zealand. It is desperate to pass any sort of climate change legislation, even flawed legislation, before the election, rather than do what is right for New Zealand. I invite the Committee to support that amendment to ensure that we sort out the sustainability standard and the tax issues before we introduce compulsion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I would make is this. Every party in this Parliament agrees that a carbon price and an emissions trading system is the sensible way to respond across the economy to climate change. The problem with the Minister is that, in terms of getting an emissions trading scheme, he immediately says we need some extra regulation. If biofuels cannot stack up economically, why are we going to compel their use? That is the million-dollar question. In respect of the illogical ban that this Government wants to put on thermal generation, and in respect of the Biofuels Bill, the Government is being a busybody. It cannot help reverting to a nanny State attitude. It wants to tell people how to live their lives, rather than just give a price signal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhere members on this side of the Chamber differ significantly from the Government on environmental issues is this: we say that we should provide a price incentive, and not have a nanny State. We should provide an incentive and provide the right sorts of price signals, and let people get on and live their own lives, rather than having the nanny State dictates that we get in Part 1 of this bill. This Clark-Peters Government believes that it knows best, and National says otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf51281083d45fdad79647a7c15edfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf51281083d45fdad79647a7c15edfd\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a short call to respond to the previous speech. I sometimes wonder whether Dr Nick Smith and I were sitting in the same select committee when listening to the submissions, because what he is relaying to the Committee is certainly not what we were told during those submissions. And if he had listened, then the submitters would have answered a lot of questions for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed48b6121454333b1a23fef2b0f9a9b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022763ae94afa8140d281ebe1ebde862f47\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I tell Dr Smith that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment submitted on the original bill, not the bill as reported back to the House after the Local Government and Environment Committee had done its work. In fact, all the international organisations that Dr Smith quoted were the reason why the select committee worked so many extra hours through all the adjournments, and I acknowledge the hard work that Dr Smith himself put into coming along to the select committee and working on the bill. We did it because we listened to those international organisations, and because we listened to the reports out there. We recognised, as a committee, that the bill needed to change from the original format that came to us, which was the format that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment spoke on when she came to our select committee and gave that report. Dr Smith knows that just as well as everyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to say of Dr Smith\u2019s amendment, which he brought up, that it is a very handy way of never having to do anything. If we simply do not ever develop standards, and if we do not have a time line in the bill as we have now, where the Minister has to come back with the methodology, then we never have to do anything\u2014that is true. I tell Dr Smith that if we never come up with standards, then his amendment says we never have to have a biofuel obligation\u2014yes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33602f82bea4c828587ba8b64db5030\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b687dd74a7b8441aa9a3d1ec99f3795a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Smith says \u201CThat\u2019s right.\u201D Well, we say that that is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe were told by submitters that they wanted to know the kind of biofuels that the select committee and this House believe should be exempt. That is why we put in those three sustainability standards that we developed in conjunction with the Greens\u2014to make it clear. Oil companies do not go into 3-week contracts when they are looking at biofuels; they want to know up front what this Parliament might smack on them part-way through their obligation. And we have told them. So they know that some biofuels out there are absolutely never going to be allowed, regardless of what the Minister comes back with after he has done the methodologies and the things the bill requires him to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have been up front about it. We know that that is what biofuel producers want, because they need some certainty. We will never have a domestic biofuel industry in this country if we cannot provide some form of certainty, like a biofuel obligation, so that producers know they will have some kind of industry to provide to here. That is why we are doing it. I do not know how many times Dr Smith needs to be told, but if he had listened at the select committee, then I would not have to be telling him again and again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002284f46f6469844511b00e08ae99a24be0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284f46f6469844511b00e08ae99a24be0\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I have been listening to this debate and it is just amazing listening to the reasons why the smaller parties are supporting this legislation. This Government is foisting a Mad Hatter\u2019s experiment on this country, and if we listen to the debates by, first of all, the Greens, by New Zealand First, and by Peter Dunne, we hear them all saying: \u201CYep, we know there are some problems. Yep, we know some issues need to be debated. But, nevertheless, let us be first, let us give it a go, and let us lead the world on this whole issue.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOne of the things that absolutely astonished me was what Peter Brown said. He went through three reasons, three things that he was concerned about and that really worried New Zealand First, with the last reason being an issue about food security and the impact it might have on other countries. But he said in the end that those members can accept it because it will happen anyway, so it does not matter. That is exactly what he said, and the Hansard will prove it. He said it does not matter, because it will happen like that anyway, so let us not worry about it. Well, we need to be worried about those very things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EPeter Dunne said exactly the same thing. He said there are real worries about this whole bill and we should be concerned about it, but if we do not get started, we will never get going. Well, it is all very well to say we should get on the bike, but I say that if it is going downhill at a great rate of knots and one cannot control it, then one does not want to get on it. That is what Peter Dunne is saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI listened to Jeanette Fitzsimons. She said that although we know there are a whole lot of issues around the world that we need to be concerned about and that all sorts of reports are telling us this is a real problem, we need not worry because we will put this sort of ring around New Zealand. She said we will make sure that it is New Zealand - generated and that the rest of the world does not matter, because we will do our own little bit. Well, if we are to try to contain ourselves, then we will be going back to the good old days when we had all the borders shut, people could not come and trade, and we were not allowed to do things overseas. If we wanted to buy a pound of butter or margarine, we had to go to the doctor to get a prescription! Are we going back to those days? Obviously, that is what the Government wants, and those parties are supporting the Clark-Peters Government in making the sorts of policies that take us backwards at a great rate of knots. I have to say that is just crazy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EMr Chairman, you are indicating that I should come back to the bill, but I am pointing out that this is a crazy, silly bill. All of Part 1 is just dopey, and New Zealand will end up being worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance has come down to the Chamber to listen to my speech, and I can understand why he would do that. He is worried about the financial impact this bill will have on the country. He should be concerned. He knows that at this time, when New Zealanders are struggling, when New Zealanders have their backs to the wall, and when lots of people are struggling to put food in the mouths of their children, his Government wants to put more costs on to those families. This whole bill will add more on to their fuel costs and it will add more on to their living costs. He might laugh about it, but that is the impact it will have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ENot one person who came before the Local Government and Environment Committee said: \u201CPlease do this because it will be advantageous financially to New Zealanders.\u201D Not one! Everyone said that, yes, there will be a cost. Even the Minister\u2019s own officials said that, and I ask the Minister of Finance to have a look at this paper. The officials said there is an issue around the cost. Surely to goodness, should we not be listening to the officials and listening to the submitters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe only people who seem to think that it does not matter is the Labour Government and New Zealand First. The Greens do not seem to worry about these costs. Peter Dunne does not seem to be worried about them. Surely to goodness, somewhere along the line, we have to take into account what the public think about more costs being put on to them by this House. Is that not an issue we should be worried about? Maybe the Minister of Finance does not care. Maybe it does not matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22977fd3ff24a63a45e7c225012cc1f\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What if it works out cheaper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e16cc090d9143d4a120512fac27243a\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Cheaper than what? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac867c9c18d47b1a36e9bdd7bbb5304\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why make it compulsory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b70bd480066f490ca8136ff025ebf040\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. If it could be cheaper, as the chairperson of the select committee says, then surely to goodness it will just happen, will it not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00227577893571534259b566e2642bbc2c52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227577893571534259b566e2642bbc2c52\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Given that Mr John Carter, for the first time in about 5 years, deigned to speak in the Chamber in some detail about a bill, although it was not clear that he knew which bill he was talking about\u2014I can help him in that case; it is the Biofuel Bill\u2014let me just respond to a couple of points he makes. The first point, very clearly, following upon the rational guidance from Dr Nick Smith, is that Mr Carter has joined the brigade of those who believe that one can save the planet at no cost, and that it is possible to actually deal with global warming with nobody changing his or her behaviour, with no relative cost changes at all, and with nobody doing anything differently; all anybody needs to do is\u2014what? It was not clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe heard from Dr Nick Smith that every party supports the emissions trading scheme. That is not true, actually. The ACT party does not. The ACT party now supports having a carbon charge, but, of course, when the Government proposed a carbon charge, the ACT party opposed a carbon charge. The Business Roundtable is being followed faithfully by the ACT party in that respect. But ACT supports the emissions trading scheme, as long as there is no cost to anybody and nothing has to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESo what is the cost in this bill? Well, the best estimate we have been told is 0.2c to 0.4c per litre. Petrol prices go up and down 3c or 4c a litre a day, at the present time. They went down US$10 a barrel overnight. Dr Norman was almost in tears this morning, thinking about the price of oil coming down. That is not supposed to happen. It went down by US$10 a barrel! That is equivalent to something like 6c a litre at the pump in New Zealand. So this bill will make a tiny difference on costs, but unless there is a requirement to start moving, we will never build the infrastructure for alternative fuels, because that is where the cost occurs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe larger the usage of alternative fuels, then the lower the cost per litre to use those alternative fuels, because the infrastructure is being better used in that respect. And, yes, there are some problems with some alternative fuels, but this bill lays out the method by which we address those matters to ensure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e98ea30f76604e27b1f47fe4871ee27d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: After it\u2019s compulsory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288c3736f1e5f4bc182130967e17156db\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, after a period of months or so we will lay out those rules! So what Dr Smith says is that, for the sake of 9 months, we should do nothing. I wish his parents had said the same thing at a certain key moment in the past. We would all have been saved this kind of irrationality on matters of this sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI say: \u201CGet with the programme, National!\u201D. There is a real need to address the issues before us. When National members promote themselves as young and vigorous and a brighter future, but on everything they are timid, unable to move, and afraid of change, then this is not the brighter future that National is pointing to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002223f363f40aa84dc9b1cbba812ab9b0d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223f363f40aa84dc9b1cbba812ab9b0d6\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Let me just respond to the comments of the Minister of Finance. The issue about costs is that they will be an impost on those who are involved in the transportation industry. So it will be a cost on them; and if it is a cost on them, then surely to goodness it will be a cost on the mums and dads out there. Even the transportation of a budget loaf of bread will result in an impost, a cost, to the mums and dads. So that is where the issue of costs arises, I say to the Minister, who has gone now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a609e4a231504c2182755ce7ebee1784\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecbae771cf3e4e608407fa27d21bbbda\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The whole thing about coming up with a standard is that if we develop a standard, everybody in New Zealand knows the standard and that is what they have to do to make their business work. But there is nothing of the sort in the bill. There is no standard whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2fa25f9e10416c97d6667c35d23b2a\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010aab6715c6458aa08b58fb7500435a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: So there is a standard? So the standards have been sorted out in somebody\u2019s feeble mind\u2014for the future. John Harrison of Harrison Motors, the transport company up in the mid-north, has to think: \u201CThat\u2019s right. The standards are there in the feeble mind of the Government, but it\u2019s not going to tell us.\u201D So how can they run a business; how can people possibly operate on an idea of standards? What are the standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022604df1db21f443f398994d38a2ef3d08\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245a0e94896294945aae338e44a15693f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: So there are standards? The standards have been sorted out? That is what list member No. 43 is saying\u2014no, sorry, that is not the member\u2019s number. That is Louisa Wall\u2019s number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d01edca1b0e4143a28006084f178b62\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the number then, 48?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a86ed496df4d45bcbecde9babffc4cfc\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if she is not No. 48, she should not be there anyway. I want to set out that the bill creates an obligation for fuel companies to blend diesel and petrol with 0.5 percent biofuel on 1 October, with the requirement increasing by 0.5 percent each year to 2.5 percent in 2012. We couple that with the bill\u2019s stated intention that requires a person subject to the biofuel sales obligation to file an annual return. What have we heard over the last 2 or 3 years from businesses? We have heard that the impact of red tape is huge on that 90 percent making up small to medium sized enterprises in this country. It is a huge impost and has a huge impact on their day-to-day business. Because they have just been told that the fuel companies will have to file a return every year\u2014it is another piece of paper they have to fill out\u2014then that is an impost. It has an impact not only on the transport companies and on the fuel companies, but also on mums and dads. At the end of the day, when they toddle off to Woolworths, to Countdown, or to Foodtown, that is where they get it. Who pays for it? The mums and dads do. So on the one hand we get a tax cut from the great Labour Government, but it gets taken away with all these other little add-ons. In the end, they do not see anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f30805b189dd4a8d8f1901611700f55e\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Have a talk to Maurice. He will tell you about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281da9afa264b46c3b37540710884b9b1\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Leave it until tomorrow? Well, we could leave it until tomorrow. We might leave it until tomorrow. If the Minister wants to leave it until tomorrow, if that is his philosophy, then it is no wonder he is no longer the Minister of Health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ELet me say this. It would have been all right for the House to accept no standards if the Government had been here for only 6 months. We could have forgiven the fact that there was only a small amount of time in which to figure out what the standards were to be and to put them in place, after the compulsion bit. But let us not forget, the Government has been in office for 9 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c54573acae446e7b41b7bdcdd76bd4f\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9b5c943f9c4b128e26ee6f3bfe5a0d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: For 9 long years. What has the Government been doing for the last 8 years? Has there been anything on standards? No. Has there been anything on listening to other nations and organisations from around the world? No. The Government has gone ahead and thought it knew everything; and all it has done, and all it will do on the passage of this bill, is put an impost on mums and dads. That is where it will happen. Mums and dads will pay for the Government\u2019s weird ideas about saving the planet, because that is all it is. It is the weird ideas from the Labour Government and the nanny State, supported by the Greens over there. For goodness\u2019 sake! Talk about putting the cart before the horse! My goodness me! The next thing we will know is that we will be riding around in a horse and cart. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with that, I suppose, if we are on holiday down in the South Island somewhere. But if we have to get to work from west Auckland out to South Auckland, and there is no highway because the Government could not afford to look forward on the transportation\u2014[Interruption] Absolutely, Mr Chairman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to finish by coining the phrase that Moana Mackey used in this House not so long ago\u2014get with the programme. Absolutely! We have to say \u201CGet with the programme.\u201D What is that programme? The programme is to get rid of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI feel sorry for my colleagues on the other side of the Chamber. Half of them will not be back here after the election, and they might need some biofuels. Where they are going, they will need our help. In all seriousness, this is nothing more than a cost on mum and dad. Mums and dads, in these times, cannot afford another tax, another impost, on their meagre wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224033cd32bdca485da903d3d7103039ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224033cd32bdca485da903d3d7103039ed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E One particular part of Mr Henare\u2019s contribution does need to be repeated. It is his complaint that the compliance cost of an annual return on biofuel blends is a compliance cost on small business. There are approximately five oil companies in New Zealand. Those companies have a combined turnover that is measured in billions of dollars\u2014[Interruption] An annual return for companies that have a turnover of many hundreds of millions of dollars is not an onerous compliance cost. If that is the sort of hurdle that can never be overcome by a National Government, as we move towards sustainability measures, it is no wonder National members never do anything to advance sustainability issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe reality is that oil companies will not introduce biofuels without there being a mandatory obligation for them to do so, except for the occasional exception, like Gull Petroleum. Probably even that company is introducing them only because it knew that a biofuels obligation was coming. When they do introduce biofuels because of this obligation, they will be helping New Zealand to take a small step towards sustainability\u2014not a large step. But that small step towards sustainability has to be taken before the subsequent larger steps can be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe have to update our infrastructure. In terms of the cost of that, the advice from the officials to the select committee\u2014on which the National Party was represented, and its members did not accuse the officials of misrepresenting the facts\u2014was clear that the infrastructural cost will be between 0.2c and 0.4c per litre of fuel, if that cost is recovered over 4 years. It will probably be recovered over a longer period, because, as sure as anything, it will last more than 4 years. The cost is minimal. In terms of the fuel itself, it is not yet clear what the impact on price will be. Some of the tallow producers say that, at current oil prices\u2014at prices under US$100 a barrel\u2014bio-diesel from tallow could be cost competitive with, or, indeed, slightly cheaper than, petrol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere is nothing wrong with this bill. The sustainability standards are world leading. That is not good enough for the National Party, but, of course, it is not willing to lead on anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9d874abd574b74bb04c6e2363196a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9d874abd574b74bb04c6e2363196a2\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am here to speak briefly on the bill. I am one of the few people in the House who has been very actively campaigning against palm oil - based biofuels over a long time. Of course, palm oil is one of the really problematic biofuels. It has resulted in massive deforestation in South-east Asia; 20 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions are now as a result of tropical forest deforestation, which is being driven in part by the palm oil industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt should also be noted that New Zealand has a connection to the palm oil industry. One of the by-products of the palm oil industry, palm kernel, is now imported into New Zealand in vast quantities. Last year alone, 400,000 tonnes of palm kernel were imported into New Zealand, largely to feed dairy cattle. One of the secondary drivers of the destruction of rainforest is the palm kernel industry, and the palm oil companies are on the public record as saying that palm kernel is now one of the significant factors in their profit stream. Biofuels are a major issue, and they are linked to the palm oil industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThe Greens would not be supporting this bill had we not negotiated clauses around sustainability. Listening to the National Party members talking about sustainability reminds me of the saying that \u201CA little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.\u201D Clearly, if we are going to make some progress on these issues, we need to encourage, particularly, the domestic production of biofuels. I do not know how many members have been to look at some of the projects happening around Taup\u014D, and elsewhere, around biofuels and woody biomass. Woody biomass offers a real opportunity in a country like ours to develop second-generation biofuels. I would have thought we would be supporting it, because it seems to me that it is real progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EIt is also worth saying, in terms of the amendment that has been put by Nick Smith, that the member has not discussed it with the member in charge of the bill from the Green Party\u2019s side, Jeanette Fitzsimons. If National were serious about that amendment, I am sure it would have discussed it with us earlier. We will not be supporting the amendment, because it has not been discussed with us. If it had been, we obviously would have considered it and looked at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EI shall respond to the discussion around regulation and leaving it up to the price to determine. It is certainly true that, in the transition we need to make towards sustainability, price and price signals are an essential part. But by themselves they will not be sufficient. We also need to use regulatory mechanisms, and regulatory mechanisms need to work alongside price mechanisms. It is also true that we need to reach out to the community and win people over to the idea of our moving towards sustainability. We have, if you like, three levers that we can use in this transition: one is price signals, one is regulation, and one is what we might call consciousness raising, or winning the community over to our ideas. Green members believe that we need to use all three levers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EFinally, in response to the increase in price that is involved\u2014the very small increase\u2014I say that the long-term trend of oil prices, in spite of what the Minister of Finance was saying earlier, is up. Anyone who has read the International Energy Agency\u2019s reports on this matter will be aware that even that agency is now saying that the long-term trend of oil prices is up, and that we need to look at alternatives. Biofuels may be a small part of that, but they are certainly not a part that we should rule out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022addfbac3c5f94acca2a41fbf39b61fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022addfbac3c5f94acca2a41fbf39b61fbe\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I stand and agree entirely with my colleagues from the National Party and with what they have been saying about the Biofuel Bill. This bill as introduced requires petrol and diesel suppliers to also supply biofuels with an initial level of 0.53 percent in 2008, increasing\u2014as we have heard\u2014to an upper level of 2.5 percent by 2012. Here we have more dopey legislation being introduced in this urgency motion. Why, after 9 long years of a Labour Government, is this bill suddenly being rushed through in the death throes of this Government? The reason is that it wants to leave its mark on the world and show that it cares. Well, if it really cared it would look not just at the costs, which it is having difficulty quantifying anyway\u2014or describing accurately\u2014but also at the hidden costs this bill will bring, to not just New Zealand but elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe environmental benefits of biofuels are arguable at best. Before we embark here in New Zealand on a campaign of changing our fuel source, let us look at what is happening abroad. I contend that other countries are now exhibiting very serious lessons that we should be paying some attention to. In the United States, the leading source of biofuels is corn, or maize. Nobel Prize - winning atmospheric chemist Paul Crutzen, a man not known for his climate change scepticism, found in 2007 that biofuels made from corn and rapeseed\u2014something that Jeanette Fitzsimons stood in this House and propounded the benefits of\u2014contribute more to global warming than fossil fuels. Biofuels made from corn and rapeseed contribute more to global warming than fossil fuels; there is a lesson there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWhile we are on the topic of emissions, we should note that biofuels emit a significantly higher level of nitrous oxide into the air. Before Mr Anderton gets too excited, I should point out that nitrous oxides are the principal cause of smog\u2014something that people in Christchurch are well aware of, or at least they should be. So I ask the Labour members of this House from Christchurch to explain to their constituents why they are supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWhile we are talking about overseas examples, I ask: what about Brazil? It is the second largest producer of biofuels in the world. How has it achieved this honour? Through having a large-scale slash and burn of the country\u2019s native rainforest. As if the rainforest was not diminishing at a rapid enough rate as it is, Brazil has now embarked on an unprecedented campaign of cutting down rainforest to plant sugar cane for biofuel production. That is something I thought the Greens and possibly some of the more conservation-minded members of the Labour Party might have thought was important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe loss of Brazil\u2019s rainforest, though, is potentially not the worst impact of biofuels. The worst impacts may well be seen in Africa. In May 2008 Olivier de Schutter, the United Nations food adviser, stated: \u201CThe ambitious goals for biofuel production set by the United States and the European Union are irresponsible \u2026 I am calling for a freeze on all investment in this sector.\u201D Why did he call for that? The reasons are twofold. Firstly, food that was once used for its intended purpose is now being turned into biofuels. The very poor in the world are now starving, because they can no longer afford what was very cheap food that made them sustainable\u2014it actually kept them alive. Again, the Greens and Labour once upon a time actually believed in helping out the poor of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESecondly, land once used for intensive food production is now being converted to biofuel production. The cause is the latest fascination of the West, and the victims are those in poverty\u2014those in poverty in Asia and Africa. Sadly, those who are in poverty in New Zealand will now have more costs imposed upon them. Pushing food prices up will hurt most those who are least able to afford it, and all so that Helen Clark, Michael Cullen, and the Labour Cabinet can feel that they are doing something positive for the environment when they drive around in their new BMW ministerial fleet. Legislation that diverts food supply into fuel for those least able to afford it is dopey legislation, and the ACT party will be opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002231f4eb9220ac4faaab87031d940857df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231f4eb9220ac4faaab87031d940857df\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a contribution. I am fascinated, intrigued, and a little disturbed by the Biofuel Bill. I think, for a start, it is wrongly named, but we are not having the title debate. I am inclined to think that it is the \u201CPlacebo Climate Change Bill\u2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Energy said this measure would be a small step. Well, it is not even a step; it is barely a shuffle. You see, if we look at what New Zealand is attributed to be contributing to the world\u2019s discharge of carbon gases, we see that we contribute 0.2 percent nationwide. Fifty percent of that is from agriculture. I do not know what the figure for transport is by\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919743e2c0414e5083d3cb1b103ac1b4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: About half of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c256ab494dc4d0a8f7a95fc9c47afbe\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. I say to Mr Brown that it is less than half of that, because there is coal consumption in a whole lot of furnaces, coal is used in electricity generation, and quite a bit is used in thermal energy. So transport contributes a long way less than one-half of 0.2 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022693cdc457ad149198d19abb6cc5a8e82\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014half.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc91bae84a1462b80b1c7984b42edff\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Let us not get into that. It is minuscule. Yet we are here in the dead of night arguing about 0.5 percent of an element of fuel. It is not even a small step. It is so small that it is not even a perceptible shuffle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am a bit alarmed, because I actually believe that the consumption of fossil fuels is a serious issue. I do not believe that, from here on in, we can combust and release 6 billion tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere every year without it having an impact. My point is this: the energy and the effort that we are putting into this debate will have zero impact. If there is an issue out there, our focus should be on doing some serious work on looking at alternatives in the whole transport arena\u2014hydrogen-powered vehicles and that sort of thing. That is where the focus must be\u2014to find an alternative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe Minister may well argue that this measure should be a focus. My argument would be that it is more of a placebo. It actually will not make one whit of difference. Well, it will make a difference, because the world has embraced biofuels, and that has created some huge distortions in other areas. Dr Norman referred to this issue. When biofuels are picked up in the wrong way, there is quite often destruction of ecosystems that actually make a contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. For example, in tropical areas, palm oil and sugar cane are replacing rainforests. In a lot of places in the world, particularly in Europe and the United States, crops that have high fertiliser and water requirements are being grown to produce biofuels, and they have a negative impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWhat does that mean in terms of the world? Well, let us look at the world supply of food on a consumption basis. For at least the last two decades, the time frame between harvesting food and consumption has been between 100 and 120 days. If we grow and harvest lettuces, they are not going to last 120 days, but for baked beans, ice cream, frozen mutton, or milk powder, that is what the time frame has been\u2014between 100 and 120 days. We are seeing food shortages in countries that have never had food shortages before. One of the drivers of those food shortages is the shift of arable land to biofuels. I am told\u2014and I am gullible, so I believe it\u2014that the current time frame, in terms of the food chain, between harvest and consumption is around 50 days. At times it has been down to as low as 47 days. That is simply because we are misusing arable potential to create biofuels that will not make one whit of difference in terms of dealing with the issue of fossil fuel - generated carbon gases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI say that, yes, we have a responsibility, but as for dealing with a bill such as this in urgency, well, that is why I call it the \u201CPlacebo Climate Change Bill\u201D. There are a whole range of other issues. We talk about sustainability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002223ea6f818ede45a99895115cb6433a2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ea6f818ede45a99895115cb6433a2d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will start by responding to John Carter\u2019s comments in regard to my earlier contribution. I outlined the concerns New Zealand First had with this kind of legislation at the time of the first reading, and I outlined the solutions that had been put to us by various experts in the field of biofuels. We are quite happy with that. The growing of crops in Africa to sell to the global market is a concern, but it is not a concern that New Zealand can address. If we can, I would like to know how. If they are growing crops in Africa to produce ethanol to sell in America, that is a concern, but I am not sure how New Zealand can stop that. I would like to stop it, but I do not know how we could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI do have a legitimate concern and I invite the Minister of Energy to respond to it. I understand that ethanol absorbs water. I see the Minister\u2019s attention is taken elsewhere, but I trust he is listening with his other ear. Ethanol absorbs water. The aviation industry, and particularly the leisure boat and maritime industries, use fuels that, I think, would be more effective if they did not contain ethanol, because water can get in the fuel tanks of airplanes, and it can certainly get into the fuel tank of the outboard motor of a leisure boat. It concerns me that, if we are putting ethanol into these products, and an airplane or a leisure boat fills its tanks with it, there is a high risk that something will go astray\u2014there will be water in the tank, the ethanol will absorb it, and the engine will stop. That is not too good an experience when one is a pilot in the sky, and it is not particularly pleasant when one is in or outside the harbour in a small boat powered by an outboard motor. I invite the Minister to address my concern and tell us how this bill will prevent that problem from occurring. It is a genuine concern. I am an ex-mariner and my son is a pilot, so I would like to know exactly how this bill will address that concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002253a78ea679424a3ba8ffe318eabb4e77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a78ea679424a3ba8ffe318eabb4e77\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Before I respond to Mr Brown\u2019s query, in respect of Eric Roy\u2019s contribution I contrast that with the position he took in the first reading, as recorded in Hansard, when he said he believed that biofuels are a part of our response to the whole issue of climate change\u2014which seems a little inconsistent with the position Mr Roy has articulated now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of Peter Brown\u2019s question, the member is correct that ethanol does mix with water, so we can get water in ethanol in a way that we cannot with petrol because petrol would float on top of the water. There are issues that ethanol also cannot be used in some transport applications, for reasons of safety\u2014for example, we do not want it in aircraft, because of the propensity of water with ethanol to freeze. How is that avoided? These biofuel blends will not be taken down the lines that are used to deliver jet fuel and the like from the refinery to the major airports, so there will not be cross-contamination there. How will it be handled at service stations for people who are filling up, for example, their outboard motor for a pleasure craft? It is likely that one pump will have a biofuel blend and one will not, and there will be some labelling to ensure that people know which choice they are making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are biofuels that are suitable for use in the fishing industry. Indeed, I read an article recently about a vessel that has been specially built to run on bio-diesel. It was a fishing vessel that was launched recently in the Lyttelton region, so there are some biofuel solutions there, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0ada3f24bcf4e449357fbc80722f43f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0ada3f24bcf4e449357fbc80722f43f\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to make a contribution to the debate on Part 1 of the Biofuel Bill. The people of New Zealand heard it here first, when the Minister who is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance in the disintegrating Clark-Peters coalition came down to this Chamber and told us that this bill will cost New Zealanders money. I do not know why the Minister of Finance did not go the next step and admit that the way in which this bill is structured amounts to nothing more than stealing food from the mouths of the poor. That is what that crowd opposite and its coalition partners to my left are engaged in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI listened with a good degree of interest to the contribution made by the list member Moana Mackey. This Government, with contributions such as that member\u2019s, is ignoring some of the best international evidence on this subject. Does anybody in this Chamber, in this debate on Part 1 of the Biofuel Bill, find compelling the suggestion that Moana Mackey, list MP, who is not capable of holding a seat herself, has greater wisdom than the chief scientist of the United Kingdom? For that matter, do the members of the Green Party have any greater wisdom than the secretaries general of the United Nations, the Royal Society, or the World Bank? And surely nobody in this House will suggest there is greater wisdom in the New Zealand First Party\u2014in particular in the New Zealand First member who spoke a few moments ago\u2014than, for example, the G8 conference of legislators, the House of Commons Environmental Audit Committee report, or the OECD Round Table on Sustainable Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EIt will not be lost on the people of New Zealand, as we debate Part 1, that that Government over there, the disintegrating Clark-Peters coalition, is putting forward legislation for this country, and trying to rush it through under urgency, in the dying days of this tired Parliament. I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, what the hurry is. I invite the Minister to explain what the hurry is. Does anybody in New Zealand seriously think that this bill is good for the country? I invite the Minister to get up, be up front, and explain to this House\u2014and, through this House, to the citizens of New Zealand\u2014why this is so urgent. What are the compelling political forces that are driving the Clark-Peters coalition to bring this legislation\u2014Part 1 of the Biofuel Bill\u2014before this House, under urgency, in its dying days? The Minister must answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe Minister must also answer the question as to why there is a mandatory sales obligation. Why is a mandatory sales obligation coming into effect before the regulations to define sustainable biofuels? Why is that? Is this just another example of a nanny State, a disintegrating Government, and a Parliament in the last days of its life telling New Zealanders what is better for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6d04bbf7a1a492491650a8b68ddb852\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6d04bbf7a1a492491650a8b68ddb852\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224fb4f660f4b54b789262f0b8b0be0442\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022535657ccbc6e41dca7a30879425760e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e06c1e6b2e049e2b126ba2bae7be4d3\u0022\u003EPart 2  Miscellaneous amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022b942045a624f4da8b9aa72977b71dbe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b942045a624f4da8b9aa72977b71dbe2\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is indeed interesting to have been part of the audience during the first part of the biofuels debate. It is worthwhile to connect Part 1 and Part 2 together, because this bill really comes from the basis that we are endeavouring here to set up a framework whereby we can grow an industry that will eventually give certainty for investors, and that framework is part of a tax regime. We know that that in itself should not only give certainty but allay a lot of fears for those people who would be strong-spirited enough to consider setting up a biofuels industry in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThere is just one thing I want to draw the Chairman\u2019s attention to. We had a speech from the chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee, and it made very little sense around the urgency of why we have to implement this bill. My mind went back to a number of the other bills that have been pushed through under urgency, and it worries me terribly to think about the regulations that will be worked out under this bill, should it ever be passed into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen we look back on the track record of this particular Government, we see that we have had the Electoral Finance Act, and the debate on the emissions trading system the other night in the Committee of the whole House. It really worries me that we have seen a lot of work done in this Chamber on bills such as this Biofuel Bill\u2014we are on Part 2 here\u2014that really, when the work mutates into its application on the ground, is quite untenable and unworkable, and has to be brought back to Parliament for a number of rewrites. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWith regard to our science around biofuels, I suppose that it could be quite clearly said that this bill has had a very quick gestation period. It went to the select committee in 2007\u2014I think it was in October\u2014and it has come back now. Yet that is probably an indication of how quickly this science is moving. The conversations and the science have clearly shown that the perverse effects of biofuels have become very clear. We know clearly now that Government incentives to stimulate biofuels within the economy\u2014whether as a tax incentive or tax write-offs in whatever way is referred to in Part 2\u2014have created such perverse effects as those we have seen in the mid-west of America: less food being produced to be available for sale on the world market, and the subsequent rise and hike in fuel prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI imagine, too, in listening to a comment before about what Dr Norman the Green member was saying, that if we went far enough back in Hansard we would find that the very gestation of this bill would have emanated from the Greens, with a plea very similar to what the Minister said originally\u2014that this was a panacea to many of our problems. However, with the quick passing of time and the perverse effects of taxation incentives, we find that we are confronted with harsh realities. This bill is headed in much the same way. It has unintended consequences, bearing in mind the comments made by Dr Cullen when he came to the Chamber to rescue his chairperson, Moana Mackey, who was unable to rebut the scientific arguments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad12221386b4ad79a724eab04e71325\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I seek your indulgence to raise one question to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603a3d0dc5bb47a5a7fd96cf6fb6e793\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You have 32 seconds\u2014go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d56bc2a5931f4d9f99768766bd574a63\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: I draw attention to a further mess in this policy\u2014the incentive that gives ethanol an advantage over biofuels. I ask the Minister to explain to me the logic of why, in schedule 2, \u201CAmendments to Schedule 3 of Customs and Excise Act 1996\u201D, ethanol is given a 42.524c advantage over bio-diesel. I would welcome hearing the Minister explain why to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002212ce44dad86849228003c9ed0c7f82b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212ce44dad86849228003c9ed0c7f82b0\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E In the debate on Part 1 of the Biofuel Bill, a number of questions were put to the Minister of Energy that he chose more or less to slip over and not answer. That is fine, but one thing I wanted to know applies equally to Part 2\u2014although when I look at Part 2 I see some of the answer. What political imperative of the disintegrating Clark-Peters coalition is driving this sort of legislation through the House in the dying days of this Parliament? That question is as valid in the debate on Part 2 as it was in the debate on Part 1. What is the political imperative? What is the urgency? What emergency is this country facing that means that Part 2 has to be driven through Parliament tonight under urgency? What is the imperative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ELet us look at Part 2. We see definitions of gasoline, petrol, and goodness knows what else. Then there it is, straight in front of us: tax. We see clause 27, \u201CPowers of component authorities to levy petroleum tax\u201D, and reference within it to local authorities\u2019 fuel tax. We see clauses headed: \u201CAssessment of tax\u201D, \u201CTax recoverable as a debt\u201D, \u201CPenalty for late payment of tax\u201D, and \u201CEffect on agreements of imposition or alteration of tax\u201D. We first heard the answer in this Chamber when the Deputy Prime Minister\u2014the Minister of Finance in the disintegrating Clark-Peters coalition\u2014said that this legislation would cost New Zealanders money. At the end of the day, is that not what it is all about? It is all about the rush of a Government that has taxed New Zealanders for 9 years to take the opportunity to throw some more taxes at the hard-working people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe Deputy Prime Minister did not even have the good grace\u2014nor has the Minister\u2014at least to acknowledge that the impact of Part 2, if passed in its current form, will be no more than to steal food from the poor of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220307a182dd4b40bda2b868e571a813ed\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc2f97c04a1e44138bebbcf70e0e2c10\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: The socialist members of the failing Clark-Peters Government can sneer and shout. [Interruption] The Minister for whatever from Christchurch can bellow out, but it makes no difference. Part 2 will have two impacts. One will be to gather revenue for the Government\u2014tax, tax, tax. I would have thought that members opposite, rather than sneer and bellow across the Chamber, would at least be respectful of the impact that this sort of legislation will have on the poor of the world. Some respect, at least, needs to be shown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ELet us think about how much Part 2 will cost New Zealand. Officials have told us that an additional $60 million a year will be imposed on New Zealanders through the 1c per litre levy on fuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a39596208164cf6afb99f739742abc0\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s just 1c. What about when it goes up to 4c? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0d225d1c3845ba89d90ac267acd1ae\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, I say to Mr Carter. This Labour Government and its coalition partners need to be very, very sure that these additional costs are justified, and I ask the Minister to address that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a72cb590f11346588ef9c78e0f18dcbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a72cb590f11346588ef9c78e0f18dcbd\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E One of the interesting things about this debate is finding out whether people genuinely believe in and support the Biofuel Bill or whether they oppose it. It is fair to say that the National Party has made it quite clear that it opposes the bill for a whole number of reasons, which my colleagues have already communicated. It is probably fair to say that the Greens are genuine in their belief that the introduction of a bill of this nature may well have some benefit to New Zealand and, from their perspective, to the world. It is also fair to say that Peter Dunne probably thinks that Part 2 will have some positive impact from a New Zealand perspective and maybe even make a positive contribution to the world. Even New Zealand First members\u2014although their arguments were pretty spurious, I have to say\u2014probably have genuinely reflected on the bill and think that it is worthy of support, although I must say I was disturbed by Peter Brown\u2019s explanation. But I cannot accept that the Government\u2019s reason for supporting this bill is genuine. If the Government were genuine, then we could have expected it to bring forward this bill 2, 5, or a number of years ago. We might have thought that that was fair enough\u2014that the Government had taken some time to study the topic. If the Government were 5 years or 3 years into its term of office, maybe it would be reasonable to say that it was genuine in what it was doing. But when the Government is bringing forward this bill 9 years after it came to power, just before the finish of this session, and is asking Parliament to pass the bill under urgency, we just cannot accept that it is genuine. We cannot believe that it is doing this for the right reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIt is obvious that the Government is pushing this bill through for political reasons. The Prime Minister said to New Zealanders that she would pour some fuel into the tank\u2014she did not quite know how to do that properly, but it was a photo opportunity for her\u2014and then the officials\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ad07f2669a4584b88ffe28860877c3\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What about Don Brash walking the plank or trying to get into that stock car?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2637861d57046d182ba6cf86e3b4398\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member over there, who lost her seat and will soon go out of Parliament, goes on about a lot of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ed688257ec490eb1c30482c529b932\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: Is this her farewell speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f43b0eed8824a1982a5f1b1d258c0bb\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that may well be so. [Interruption] I am not denying that, of course. Parliamentarians all take photo opportunities. But the member has just accepted and acknowledged that this bill is being passed for the photo opportunity for the Prime Minister and not for genuine reasons, at all. She has just confirmed my argument. Sadly, what this means is that when we look at Part 2 and talk about taxes, it will just put more cost on to the people of this country, and the reason is that it gives the Prime Minister and the Clark-Peters Government another photo opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f837517b4ae4c3891bae99338d4df9a\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t that word \u201CGovernment\u201D have a lovely ring to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d8bc5239894885a0d6a271292f18e5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say to the member over there who keeps interjecting that that is not accepted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235516f2447124492a681d7a2cf76d033\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: Her farewell speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260466203b36d4c2584a9e9dafab27d74\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That was her valedictory\u2014the interjection. The fact is that, whether or not we like it, not even the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, has come up tonight and put forward any lucid argument about which we could say that we might reflect on it and have to accept that the Minister has a valid argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EYou know, it is all very well for all the parties to say that we have to start somewhere. We accept that. No one is arguing that there should not be a debate and an argument around biofuels. What we are saying, which is the opposite of what the Government and its supporters are saying and have not yet put forward lucid arguments for, is that we should question whether this bill will achieve what should be achieved by introducing biofuels to New Zealand. That is the unfortunate thing about this debate\u2014it has become hollow. All that has happened all night, throughout this whole debate, is that the National Party has been attacked for the fact that we do not support the bill. No Government members have argued that they do not accept the National Party\u2019s arguments but that, nevertheless, they will consider this point, this point, and this point because those are the valid reasons for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI have not yet heard the Minister, the chairman of the Local Government and Environment Committee, or anyone from New Zealand First put forward a lucid argument that we could sit here, as the National Party in Opposition, and say there may be a valid argument in it. The Minister could take a call, and stand up and say: \u201CListen, John Carter. You need to understand that you have missed the point. You need to understand that there are valid reasons why we are doing this. You need to understand that this will bring this benefit to New Zealand. It will have this benefit for households and car-owners in this country. It will mean this much, from a New Zealand perspective, on the world stage.\u201D If the Minister had put forward those arguments, then maybe we would have had to sit back and think about it. But I am afraid that the Minister has never put forward those arguments. He has never done that in the select committee. Indeed, if you have looked, Mr Chairman\u2014and I am sure you have, because you are a very erstwhile member of this Parliament\u2014you would have read\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e756a5fe6ee9486d8564b4865f929e31\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CErstwhile\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022701f435a97364674ac1c919d647b9566\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He is. He is a very earnest member of our\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfac0dcf7d2e4d50a0566996b92fc2d1\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: But you said \u201Cerstwhile\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720257716f9a4ea2a8a66bbb8194f23e\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he is both. I mean, that is a double compliment. The point is that at least he is coming back to this Parliament. Anyway, we should not bring the Chairman into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226728e690b2874b128af5d8a9d0a6857b\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: But erstwhile means former.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd924cb7f9f14474b2d8eb8eb6c72139\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, then it is that member whom I am referring to. I am sorry; I got the direction wrong. I beg the member\u2019s pardon. The point is this. If the members of Parliament had read this statement from the Ministry of Economic Development, then they would see that it is against this legislation. Ministry officials make it quite clear. They are saying that this legislation will not work and that it will put costs on to this country. They know it will increase taxes, and they know it will increase costs for motorists. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, a person whom one would think would want to support this sort of legislation, has said in her statement that she opposes this legislation for the way it is drafted. She does not oppose the concept; she supports the concept. So does the National Party. No one is arguing against the concept of biofuels; what we are arguing against is the way in which this Government is implementing their use. The timing of it is bad, and on top of that, the bill itself is flawed. It does not allow sufficient time for the whole issue around standards to be established before people have to compulsorily get on and implement it. That is seriously bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this Minister has failed this Parliament. Mind you, he has done it before in many other things. He has not done anything with regard to energy. We have serious problems with regard to a whole number of issues in areas where he has been the Minister, and this is just another example of where this Minister has been found to be deficient in his ability to contribute to this Parliament and to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ENick Smith put forward a very good amendment\u2014which, unfortunately, was defeated, I assume\u2014and the point now is that we should be considering this bill and opposing it. I would like to think that the Minister would stand up, take a call, and explain to members why this Opposition should be supporting this bill, because he has not done so yet. I say to the likes of Dail Jones, who is here on behalf of New Zealand First, and I say even to the member from the Greens that maybe they need to reconsider. They were opposed to this bill in its original form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207cf5db83f7e40bb8f671d2e694c21ca\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t mention Jeanette Fitzsimons speaking before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b392a8fb2d9c4e79ae65e6c14cd033ff\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did; I mentioned Jeanette. She made a contribution. I made the very point earlier that when I listened to her contribution, it was all about the fact that we were putting borders round New Zealand. We were not worried what was happening worldwide. Well, I say that that is the problem. This Minister has now tried to shut us out from the rest of the world. He is saying that this legislation will all be New Zealand - focused, it will be all about our country, and it will be all about us. The sad fact is that this legislation will be to the detriment of New Zealand, and it will certainly be to the detriment of the people in this country, and all because this Minister has not done his homework. He has not set some standards that we can all apply. This legislation certainly has not allowed us a convincing argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00226de38e5bfcc14bdaa3034497b0d4ce1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226de38e5bfcc14bdaa3034497b0d4ce1d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to Part 2 of the Biofuel Bill, I say that it is quite appropriate that we direct attention to schedule 1, which contains the new schedule 5, \u201CBiofuel percentage\u201D, to be added to the Energy, (Fuels, Levies, and References) Act by clause 16 of this bill. I make the point that when we look at when this legislation would become law\u2014should it pass\u2014we see that it is 1 October 2008. There is an indication, based on that date, that there is an anomaly and that there will be a perverse effect. I would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, to explain why it was acceptable to wait until 1 July 2009 before a standard would be put in place to fulfil the requirement put in at the very beginning of the bill that it was to be sustainable. That is why we on this side of the Chamber are saying that the bill in its present state is perverse, in the sense that it is following the notion that biofuels are a panacea for all our global warming problems. However, time has moved on so quickly that we now understand the full extent of the issue. Forests are being cut down, and the equivalent percentage on which our biofuels are produced is far and away outweighed by the carbon footprint, so there is quite a perverse effect. Yet we have set this standard that is coming in on 1 July 2009, and National members are saying, effectively, that doing that is no better than everybody else\u2019s perverse effects, which are driving Third World countries towards poverty and starvation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI just draw the Minister\u2019s attention to the fact that a lot of the international commentary is saying that countries will not be able to arrive at a standard until 2011, so this Clark-Peters Government, in its last, dying days, is to introduce that type of legislation into this House. I seek the indulgence of the chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee to allow me to mention what we were saying when we had a very brief discussion about this matter before the dinner break. We were talking about creating a biofuel industry in New Zealand, and about using some of the growth within the dairy industry and using the whey to produce biofuels, or maybe tallow and things like that. Of course, in Marlborough some people have been working on sewage, so from that point of view, some very, very creative thinking is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EMay I put it to members in the context of where biofuels have replaced a lot of the food basket, would it not have been far better to, in actual fact, have thought beyond just the confines of biofuel, and looked at ways of incentivising research, because in my view that would have been a far more effective way than picking winners with ethanol over bio-diesel? I am still waiting for the answer to my questions that I raised earlier as to the logic of that 42.5c preference of ethanol over bio-diesel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ESo when we stop and look at it all here we have this bill in front of us, and we do not have a sustainable standard. We are actually seeing the perverse effects of a bill for virtually the next 12 months whereby continued burning and cutting down of forests, and Government incentivised tax-benefited biofuels, will be produced, and we know even from the Green member, if my memory serves me right, that 20 percent of the carbon emissions at the moment are coming from the perverse effects of cutting down forests, planting crops, and endeavouring to produce biofuels. I would like that question answered, because schedule 1 talks about the percentages of biofuel. In the first year it will be 0.5 percent, year 2 will be 1 percent, year 3 will be 1.5 percent, year 4 will be 2 percent, and year 5 onwards will be 2.5 percent. To me it all looks rather strained\u2014very much just a structure and a framework with very, very little substance. This Government has a track record of this sort of thought to containing global climate change as part of a suite of actions taken by a Government that is in desperation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6c94fe496141c395d465661ae44567\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: In the dying throes of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff258be208514c52ad12f31b7b73ee34\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: In the dying throes of the Government, as my colleague here mentions. Part 2 talks very much about the taxation, and when one thinks of the tax, one thinks about a pretty structured regime with a well-fleshed up body to it. Unfortunately, the debate being put forward on this side of the Chamber indicates that we are so light on substance. This bill is all about form, and it is a tragedy to see that it is all form without substance when we look at the sustainability standards. Schedule 1A, \u201CConsequential amendments to other enactments\u201D, talks about the far-reaching effects, and it may be interesting from that point of view. Could the Minister also take a call, because I am finding these schedules incredibly complex, and I think they need to be explained. It is fascinating to me that it has an implication on such Acts as the Building Act 2004, and the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Act 2001. It also affects international agreements: the International Energy Agreement Act 1976\u2014that is going back to last century\u2014international energy agreements, land transport rules, and the Local Government Acts. [Interruption] It is all written down here in black and white. It will be so very, very difficult for the members on the opposite side to make head or tail of that, let alone from this side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI would like to take the opportunity to get some answers on those two questions\u2014the one I asked first about why the advantage of 42.5c for ethanol, and, secondly, why it is so urgent to put this Act in place that the Minister will not even wait until July 2009 when, officials are saying, there will be a standard put forward, as referred to in Part 2. I ask the Minister why he has not deferred this bill until such a time as there is the possibility of a sustainable standard. Is it because they know that this Clark-Peters Government is in its last days? Is there another reason for it? In the form it is in today, it is not a very positive bill. It is just one of those other bills that will be following in the footsteps of the Electoral Finance Act, and the emissions trading scheme that we are still debating at the moment. Basically, as I hear it, this Government has stopped listening to the nation\u2014the citizens of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe have so many unintended consequences that emanate out of this bill. Sadly, this bill appears to me to be born out of a notion that biofuels would be the panacea to all our problems going forward. In actual fact, the substance of this bill when it materialises into regulations will not do one thing to stimulate the development of biofuels in a sustainable way or any other way. It will just be a very, very complex morass of regulations\u2014a spaghetti bowl of regulations\u2014that will be just as purposeful as this Government in its last dying days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Chair, for allowing me to speak on this bill. It is rather complex. It is certainly a very new area. I would encourage the Government, though, to think outside the square, because if we have a global issue in finding alternative fuels, I would have thought that it would be very important to be able to identify those people who are doing like research, and get alongside those so we multiply the effect of the dollar that we have here, and in that multiplier effect find some true solutions going forward. At the moment with the bill the way it is, it will not stimulate, sustain, or promote the production of biofuels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00220c32f67ca412434aa9cff3d6ab80fb3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c32f67ca412434aa9cff3d6ab80fb3b\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a contribution to the debate this evening on the Biofuel Bill. I tell those who are listening that we are sitting in urgency\u201413 hours of urgency today, right through to midnight. This bill is, obviously, a priority for this Government. It is in its urgency motion. It obviously wants to get it through the House. When reading the bill\u2014some 100 pages; no, it is 97 pages; I knew that it was close to 100 pages\u2014one realises that it is all about the Government\u2019s political survival.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThose listening and those in the House will recall that the Prime Minister\u2019s statement to the nation last year was all about sustainability. In her speech she mentioned it 17 times. Then she said that the Government will sell all the Ford Fairlane Crown cars, because it wants to have less of a carbon footprint. Well, lo and behold, they have been replaced by BMW 7 Series cars, and the former Ford Fairlane Crown cars are now being driven around Auckland. In terms of the Government reducing our carbon footprint, and in terms of the Prime Minister\u2019s statement about the Government wanting New Zealand to be more sustainable, well, it has not happened at all. It was yet another political stunt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI am interested to see that the legislators are still struggling to define what sustainability really means. The important point about Part 2 is that it is all about taxes and regulations. We have seen that over the last 9 years\u2014more and more taxes and regulations. They affect hard-working people and families in New Zealand. There have been 2,000 regulations passed in the last 9 years, under this Government. This Biofuel Bill requires only 0.5 percent of biofuels in the first year. The environmental benefits of this legislation can be debated until the cows come home. Members should just think about it. The figure I hold in my head is 230 kilograms of corn to produce enough ethanol to fill up the family car for one trip, but 236 kilograms of corn produces enough bread on the table to feed mum and dad and two kids for the whole year. How can ethanol be sustainable, when we analyse those facts? That is the important thing. This is a case of the Government wanting more regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber we say that, yes, we want a more sustainable environment, and, yes, the public will determine where they want to go with biofuels, but they do not need the Government and nanny State legislation to tell them they shall have biofuels\u2014but, by the way, they are only half a percent. It is a bit like telling mum and dad and the kids in the morning, after they wake up and go to spread butter on their toast: \u201COh, by the way, half a percent has to be margarine.\u201D We have some real concerns about these regulations and the costs they will impose on hard-working families that are currently struggling with mortgage rates. Fuel is actually starting to come down in price, in terms of the price per barrel in US dollars. That is a positive sign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI think New Zealanders now, as we go into the election, will think hard about this Labour Government and all the legislation it has passed. We are in the dying days of this Clark-Peters Government. It is starting to be incredibly fragile. Today we are sitting for 13 hours under urgency, we are sitting until midnight tonight, to pass a bill, and even those on the other side of the Chamber do not know how it will be implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe important point about this bill that I also want to take particular note of is that the standards will not have been set, so the fuel companies will have to invest considerable amounts of money before they actually know the rules about specific biofuels. Will it be bio-diesel? Will it be ethanol? The list goes on and on. Tallow is another example. National has some concerns about this bill in its current form, and that is why we are opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u002217f08df805a747e0a4ee03d0fd2400a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217f08df805a747e0a4ee03d0fd2400a3\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc036532ea7c458b95e49c01ab734e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc036532ea7c458b95e49c01ab734e1d\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I have had to break an important occasion to get back here to take part in this debate. [Interruption] Yes, it is commendable. I was involved in a carbon-neutral activity to get here\u2014I walked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EPart 2 deals with miscellaneous amendments. National members aired a number of issues that are of concern to us during the debate on Part 1, and, similarly, this part raises a huge number of questions for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe first issue is that I have never seen a bill before Parliament with so many delegated responsibilities in it. There will be more than one Order in Council; there will be Orders in Council to change, set, amend, and modify issue after issue. That in itself might not be bad, except that there is a vagueness around a whole lot of these issues\u2014the setting of levies, the setting of taxes, and deeming whether something is sustainable. Being a member of the august Regulations Review Committee, I have to say that I see troubled times ahead when it has to determine, for example, whether an ethanol-based biofuel has come from sustainably harvested sugar cane. Those are the sorts of decisions that are delegated responsibilities. As I said in a previous debate on this bill, the focus is in the wrong place. The focus should be on finding alternative fuels that are sustainable and will solve the issue of our significant consumption of fossil fuels, and this bill simply will not do that. The delegated responsibilities are a significant issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAnother issue that National members have a number of concerns about is what the cost will be. We are principally an exporting nation. That is where we earn the wealth that drives this economy. If we are imposing upon ourselves a series of levies, taxes, and costs that our competitors do not have, the impact is that we will not have investment in that part of our industry, and significant sections of our industrial base will head off overseas. Already, a number of people who have been investing on a continuing basis in the dairy industry are now heading to South America. They are doing that because opportunities exist over there, but also because they will not be bound by the various regimes that are incorporated in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EOne need only read clause after clause. There is clause 29, \u201CAssessment of tax\u201D; clause 30, \u201CAssessment presumed to be correct\u201D; clause 31, \u201CTax recoverable as a debt\u201D; clause 32, \u201CPenalty for late payment of tax\u201D; clause 33, \u201CSeparate bank account to be kept by distribution authority\u201D\u2014for storing the money\u2014and on it goes. Those provisions would not be in this bill if there were not significant costs associated with the implementation of it. We want a quantification of those costs. We are not saying we want to abrogate our responsibilities in terms of dealing with climate change; we need to know some of the specifics of the costs, but all we have are the words \u201Cset by Order in Council\u201D, which are embraced within the bill time after time. Having spent some time on the Regulations Review Committee, which has the responsibility of reviewing such orders, I can see inquiry after inquiry. I can see a dearth of knowledge of how to make the astute decisions that will have to be made about issues of sustainability and where to strike those taxes. That will be the responsibility of the Regulations Review Committee. It will have to make sure that those impositions of cost stand where they fit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe other issue I want to raise\u2014and no other member has raised this issue that I know of\u2014is we talk about sustainability in terms of the supply of fuel\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00220030a7ff0f36437aa9f705ec856b8326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220030a7ff0f36437aa9f705ec856b8326\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9a9b7afa9ec42dbbaa41ddbd11cf1cf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b60071c1cbf4299a8b39f08ecc56a20\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2310c1f510745df8e6ff5ce1c6b7c7c\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235f07d76ba0245d0b56ca008efecec8c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002201a57c048d204ebdafef85b1ecd479da\u0022\u003ESchedule 1A\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ff2805bf689c432c99ca37fd1b2c00df\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1A agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df0a0ad18162446fb0810393ddade098\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220d2820b5411e4370988f3a106f367b8a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f725925318c4cfba51688cdd5187711\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3d5c531753541f1a1c35845f5b1008e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b61cf3798e054f56862c82814a539447\u0022\u003ESchedule 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d35c9063f26845acb2af1cdd5c793ec0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227382bb1a63dc433bb6842e36bf034752\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002215d78deed8654c4ab7e83ae0277cf455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215d78deed8654c4ab7e83ae0277cf455\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make two important points in this part of the debate on the Biofuel Bill. The first is in relation to costs. We have no idea of the cost we will be imposing on New Zealand households with this bill. We know that households are under enormous cost pressures\u2014food prices going up, electricity prices going up\u2014and what we know from this Government is that it is completely out of touch with the struggle that is going on in ordinary New Zealand homes as they put their family budgets together. I was just astonished to hear the contribution from Dr Michael Cullen, the Deputy Prime Minister in this Clark-Peters Government. What Dr Cullen said was this: \u201CThe price of gas sometimes goes up and down by 10c overnight. So why would we give a bother if this is 1c or 2c?\u201D. Why would we bother if this bill poses an increase of anything from\u2014depending on the advice\u2014somewhere between 3c or 7c a litre? Well, let me tell members what 3c a litre means. Every cent a litre costs New Zealanders $60 million\u2014$60 million. So tonight this Parliament is looking at whacking another $180 million of costs on to families and businesses for very questionable environmental gain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe believe that if we have an emissions trading scheme, there will be an incentive for biofuels. Biofuels should be able to stand or fall on their merit, rather than our having this nanny State bill where the Minister is going to define the exact percentage of biofuels for the next 6 years. That is my first point. The second point is\u2014and it comes down to the amendment in my name in respect of the commencement date\u2014that every member of this Committee knows there is enormous international debate about the sustainability of biofuels. There is not a publication in the world that has not talked about the awful problems that other countries have got themselves into with their biofuel regulations. And what does this bill do? It says we are going to make biofuels compulsory on 1 October this year, but we are not going to sort out the sustainability standard for some time in the future. So if I bowl a tropical rainforest over, grow palm oil, and export it to New Zealand, it will meet the compulsory requirement of this bill on 1 October. If I go and bowl over some Amazonian forests, if I steal food from the poorest people in the world and produce biofuels, on 1 October that is all OK. And the Green Party, New Zealand First, and Labour are saying they do not care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThey do not care! Have they not listened to the submissions from Oxfam\u2014a reputable organisation? Have they not listened to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, whom the Government appointed, and who opposes this bill and says that it is damaging to New Zealand\u2019s environmental reputation? My amendment is very simple, and says simply this: do not introduce the compulsory requirement until we have the sustainability standard in place\u2014put the cart after the horse, not before. Have members ever heard of anything so common-sense? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENow, the Green Party members were interesting. They did not want to argue for introducing this compulsion before some sustainability standard comes into place into the never-never. They just simply said: \u201CWe can\u2019t vote for Nick\u2019s amendment, because we haven\u2019t yet seen it.\u201D Well, that is not a very good argument. We moved it at the Local Government and Environment Committee. We gave notice that it was one of the most important issues in this bill, and for members in this Committee to proclaim that this bill is about sustainable biofuels, when the sustainability standards do not come into place for some long time down the track\u2014officials say it may be as late as 2011\u2014is reckless and irresponsible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI could refer to the Secretary-General of the United Nations pleading with countries not to put biofuel requirements in place without sustainability standards. I could refer to the reports of the OECD, and to the United Kingdom House of Commons. I could refer to the reports from the World Food and Agriculture Organisation, and to all of that international advice, and still the Government blindly proceeds with this bill and this compulsory requirement that is so foolhardy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221ad2ff2cedba4647a0264a1e29b7920a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ad2ff2cedba4647a0264a1e29b7920a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to respond to some of the misinterpretation of information that was provided to members of the Local Government and Environment Committee, including Dr Nick Smith, by officials from the Ministry of Economic Development. The cost estimates that Dr Smith continues to recount to this Parliament are, as he knows, not the figures that were given to him by the Ministry of Economic Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068b9573f00442f3a18d0c685f129f91\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Give us its figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db855493690d4228ac9338a8777a5555\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The figure is the figure that I gave earlier, and the member has heard it on numerous occasions before. It is shown on this piece of paper here, which is a briefing on the Biofuel Bill given by the Ministry of Economic Development on 18 June 2008, when that member was on the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022224bdd976a7d4b56a71749f283d038ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e05f240717945d38c4821cf180553fa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The advice was that the cost of the additional blending infrastructure and the like that the oil companies will have to have would be the equivalent of 0.2c to 0.4c per litre of fuel sold, assuming that the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251700f30db1e4d358f4fd7e89b6fdfd0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: For the infrastructure. What about the fuel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b330bf96a340c0bd069a3b5868ab45\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: For the infrastructure, assuming that the cost is recovered over a 4-year period. They will probably recover it over a longer period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daee2ff085564ae3bf27631fbf5bd65c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: $20 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17f6584fc6e40f5beb7980ac8a1a156\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is 0.2c to 0.4c per litre. The overall cost to consumers is estimated at being in the range of a net benefit of 4c per litre to a net cost of 1.3c per litre. With higher oil prices, biofuels could in fact save New Zealanders money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31a77c28658417f8b59f900232bd1e1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: So you don\u2019t need regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274466c218adf4c2890ae93ec1cf366d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have Dr Smith chipping away there saying we do not need regulation. His other stated concern is the sustainability of biofuels. At the moment, one can sell biofuels in New Zealand, they are sold in New Zealand, and there are no sustainability criteria. Whichever way one looks at it, this bill improves the status quo, because it immediately introduces reporting obligations in respect of biofuels, and it promises to have fully articulated sustainability criteria by about the middle of next year. In the meantime, it sets out the principles that have to be applied in respect of those sustainability criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I just demolish a couple of other things that have been spuriously put up by the National Party. An example was given of corn-to-ethanol. We agree that that is a bad thing. Corn-to-ethanol could be produced and sold in New Zealand at the moment; this legislation, because of the sustainability criteria, will prevent it from occurring in the future. It would not meet the sustainability criteria, because the criterion of a 35 percent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions would not be met. It would fail on that one. In addition, it would fail to meet the criterion that biofuels not be grown on land of high productive value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinally, on the issue of cost, as I said, the cost might go down, or it might go up by 1c a litre. We hear National members shed crocodile tears about that, whilst their transport spokesperson, who has not taken a call in this debate, is proposing tolls in Auckland of $5 a day each way\u201450 bucks a week!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebe5f7812c1040b9a580a90d53cf32e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebe5f7812c1040b9a580a90d53cf32e5\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I just know, Mr Chairperson, that you are dying to hear the rest of the bit at which I got cut off on when I was debating a previous part, and it does fit neatly into the title of the debate\u2014trust me. The title is, I guess, the principal part of the debate we are having, and, as I said in an earlier debate, this is largely a placebo bill. Certainly, one of the reasons I oppose it is that it does not encompass those things that are really going to make a difference. I would have much preferred this bill to have in its title, and to include, \u201Calternatives to fossil fuels\u201D, because in my humble view if there is to be some resolution to the consumption of fossil fuels, then we have to look at the big picture, at the hydrogen options, and at some of those other things\u2014dare I say electric; I am not sure whether that is a fuel or not\u2014including solar power. That is why this bill is so narrow and will make such a minuscule difference to what actually happens. That is my first point. The bill is too narrow to actually resolve the issues confronting humanity. I put that out there to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe other thing I was about to raise in the previous debate in terms of sustainability, is that we have a dearth of knowledge\u2014a lack of knowledge\u2014about the impact on existing plant and machinery in New Zealand. When we start mandatorily making regulations about what fuel mixes are to be, I am not sure what the implications of that are going to be. In my modest operations at Te Tipua I have a tractor. It is an old tractor, but it is about 140 horsepower. The replacement value of a tractor today is about $1,000 per horsepower, so members can do the sums. If this tractor, which probably has an engine life of somewhere in the 12,000 to 18,000 hours\u2014it has done about 4,500\u2014does not like what it is mandatorily being asked to consume under this bill, which is a 5 percent mixture of a biofuel into the additive, and it dies, the implications are going to be quite serious on the kind of revenue flows that are in my modest operation, I can tell you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo when we talk about sustainability, there is a certain sustainability of the plant and machinery that we do actually have currently in New Zealand, and nobody has actually raised that issue. If we are seriously talking about the title, then it might include the words \u201Cand killing off obsolete machinery\u201D. So that is an issue I want to put before the Committee as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThere is another issue about sustainability. Whilst I acknowledge what the Minister said about the corn-to-ethanol argument, there is a sustainability issue, too, surrounding the use of our farmland. We talked earlier in the debate about the pressures on feeding the world, and food chain compaction in terms of the food now being consumed. One or two members in this series of debates have talked about rape or granola, or some of those other oil-bearing fruit alternatives that we can actually grow. The economics are that the current price of wheat is about $500 a tonne, and most good operators are getting yields in excess of 8 tonnes. Some of them are getting over 10 tonnes per hectare. Members can do the sums on that\u2014$5,000-odd a hectare gross. With the current price of canola at about $800 a tonne, and somewhere about 2.5 to 3.5 tonnes per hectare, one is sort of saying that the pressures then come on to sustainably farming one\u2019s arable land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWhilst the bill talks up the benefits of rape in a crop rotation, most people involved in arable farming in New Zealand have been around long enough to have worked out what grain crops suit them and where they have pulse crops, brassicas, and all that. To actually impose a crop that is not as viable as current arable use puts certain other implications on arable farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe absolute contrast in this is that the current price of wheat at $500 a tonne makes the growing of the oil-seed crops less viable and less preferable. But the more of a move there is to the oil-based crops, the less there will be of the grain crops, and that price goes up further, and that margin just gets wider and wider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00228d316c715b794b6694c333ff56a099d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d316c715b794b6694c333ff56a099d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise to my colleague; I have a meeting I need to go to, and I want to make a further contribution. I have noticed that not a single member in the Committee has been able to refute the core argument around the amendment that National has put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3f09836d484b238dee347aa3c2eb0a\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is not doing anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f639015daa314914abeb0da31e6b8592\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let us go through it. Does the member accept, as the Minister of Energy does, that there are a large number of unsustainable biofuels around the world and that that is cause for serious concern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227159e2aff9634a8c9b1a6a35ac47c1bd\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s nodding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177c7ef58de24a22a41ce71c528df2bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: He is nodding, as is the member. In every other area of public policy, before we make something compulsory we want to have the standard in place. Have members ever heard of anything as ridiculous as what the member for Rotorua wants? She is the temporary member for Rotorua; she is a goner, the National candidate is on his way here, and we are looking forward to welcoming him. One of the reasons Steve Chadwick will go is she does not seem to give a hoot about the costs imposed on people in Rotorua on low and middle incomes. She is prepared to pass any sort of politically correct legislation that imposes costs on her constituents, and that is one of the reasons she will go down the gurgler in a few weeks time, when we have a general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI come back to the core point: why will this Parliament not support having the sustainability standard in place before making biofuels compulsory? The Government says that that would just delay them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad52b914f51d46599110047b713aeb35\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9096d6469c84504891aa8d8ebc71e75\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is it a bad thing to delay making unsustainable biofuels compulsory? I ask those ladies opposite why we would want to compel people to use biofuels made from palm oil from Indonesia. Labour is making biofuels compulsory before it introduces a sustainability standard, and not a single member of the Government, including Steve Chadwick, can give me a reason why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc9ac8e47fa43fa8843920174c13705\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It will stimulate biomass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5850781bec44838d1b05a454932156\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, she says it will stimulate the biofuels industry. Well, let us try to stimulate a sustainable biofuels industry. There is absolutely no logic in the Government bringing this provision into effect on 1 October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is a reason for it. Labour has been in Government for 9 years, and New Zealand has the worst increase in emissions of any of the 42 Kyoto-obligated countries\u2014an awful record. We have lost record numbers of trees. We have had a constant decline in the amount of renewable electricity. Basically, the Government is going into the election on the issue of sustainability with one of the worst records on climate change that any Government could have. It wants a little photo opportunity on 1 October, so that its members are able to say: \u201CHey, guys, we know that climate change is in trouble, we know that emissions have gone through the roof, but, hey, we\u2019ve got the Biofuel Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhat the Government is not telling the public is that the sustainability standard is miles down the track. I do not think a single member of this House believes that it will be provided by the due date of 1 July next year. The Government says it wants to get in early with this legislation in order to get the benefit of it. Sorry? In order to get the benefit of biofuels making up half a percent of fuel in the first year, it will go ahead with it without the sustainability standard!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational members on the select committee struggled for 6 months to get a sustainability standard and could not do it. We have given a hospital pass to the officials to try to work it out. The Government knows that they are not going to meet the timetable for the sustainability standard, but it is passing this bill without that most basic component. I have a simple challenge for members of the Government: if they want compulsory biofuels, they should put in place the sustainability standard that will deal with the risk of food being taken from the poorest in the world, that will deal with the risk of biodiversity being bowled over, and that will ensure that there actually is some climate change benefit, before rushing ahead and introducing compulsion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I will make to the Minister of Energy is this. He says we need this bill to stop unsustainable biofuels. Well, whenever we get the standard, it still will not prohibit unsustainable biofuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022edfd77076f99427c849b9b0fcf604827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edfd77076f99427c849b9b0fcf604827\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is indeed a pleasure to follow my colleague Nick Smith, who would have to be the most knowledgable member in this House on this subject. I would like to refer to the title of the bill, and to cover about six issues very, very briefly: what the Minister of Energy said previously; the behaviour of the various parties in this Chamber; what true leaders would do when confronted with the challenges that this Government has scored own goals on; the comments that Nick Smith drew to the Committee\u2019s attention; and the record of this Clark-Peters Government on the Kyoto Protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIf we were to listen to and believe what the Minister said before, we could only draw the conclusion that this bill in actual fact is not required, because everything is rosy. But we know that that is not the case. This Biofuel Bill is a lot deeper and more complex than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen I heard the contributions from New Zealand First, United Future, and the Greens, I drew the conclusion that a lot of members are voting in support of this bill for the wrong reasons, and I have seen that happen in this House far too many times. Biofuels have a little bit of a notion around them that they will be the panacea for all our problems. However, the science has caught up with them, and that attitude seems to be very, very perverse. Yet the politicians in this House will support this bill because there has been an amendment around sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ENick Smith very eloquently highlighted how senseless the speedy process of this bill through the House is. In actual fact it makes the whole thing quite unprincipled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIn terms of talk about principles and sustainability, we heard from the chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee, who got up before and gave a contribution. She spoke about the principles. She could not talk about the standards. I put it to members that if they are talking about the principles around a sustainability standard, then why are they pushing this bill through the House before they have that sustainability standard? Why would they continue to go down the pathway of the perverse effects of the production of biofuels: the total demolishing of forests for the purpose of reaping Government-subsidised taxation benefits; rising food prices; and the taking of food from the mouths of the poor? It defies logic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EAnother point I would like to make\u2014time is running away on me\u2014is that I have the sense that a very dumb thing is being done by this House. Accepting those perverse effects, a true leader would go further afield, instead of trying to fence off New Zealand and make it a solution inside itself. A true leader would actually go further afield and seek collaborative partners to identify long-term global solutions. Is the Clark-Peters Government doing that? Not at all. One has to seriously challenge the motive for it introducing this measure. The Biofuel Bill is damaged because it is being rushed through the House. National members recognise the potential of it, but it is hugely risky if one does not get the principles right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIn terms of the cost, when we look at the overall context of things we see that, regardless of what the Minister says, a lot more money is being spent on this novel bill than is being spent on the substantive game of addressing climate change. Regardless of how one wishes to quote it, the cost-benefit ratio of this bill does not stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EComing from Marlborough, I recognise that a lot of the growth in that area in recent years has come from the change of land use. It has come from the use of automotive engines such as tractors, which burn fuels. Again, this bill will impact upon the competitiveness of our region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EProbably the point I am most disappointed about is that in asking the Minister to give me an explanation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4e42f9a97a541329b5013efd93fc522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4e42f9a97a541329b5013efd93fc522\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say this bill is a shocking bill. No one here knows how to drill for oil, distribute it, refine it, and put it together, but a bunch of politicians who have never done any of those things sit around a select committee table and decide to mandate how it will be made here in New Zealand. No one here has ever made fuel, or refined it, but, no, a bunch of politicians, a bunch of elected representatives on a select committee, are so, so clever that they can decide and debate in Parliament whether, in the year 2012, the level of biofuels in our fuel should be 3.4 percent, or 3.35 percent, or 2.4 percent. Those are things that our politicians have spent their time debating and considering. Where on earth does the expertise or the knowledge come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThose politicians are so clever; they can sit around in this Parliament and decide not only the financial cost but the environmental cost. I promise that no member of the Committee knows whether adding that percentage of biofuel is a plus or a minus in terms of environmental outcomes. Members have no mechanism to account for it. That is what is so extraordinary. We cannot trace all the work, all the resources, all the effort; we cannot trace the sources of all the compounds and chemicals that go into a litre of fuel. We cannot even trace the mechanisms by which biofuel is manufactured and made, but a bunch of bureaucrats and politicians sitting around in a committee meeting in Parliament say they think the figure for 2012 should be 3.35 percent. They have no idea. They know nothing. It is the conceit that bothers me. The socialists have given up trying to run an economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279fc46d4180d4f2ab6ded52d63955b11\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227536e850bcdf408597c1bf8df51940a8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: They think it is funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ba11df728b47fc9b8bf60f2709f362\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: No, we think you\u2019re funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf032c3fedd54421a112186e1f985972\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: At least I would get higher up the Labour list than poor old Darien Fenton has, if I put my name up. What is tragic about this bill is what it means to New Zealanders. It will put up the price of fuel, for no environmental purpose; it is just so, I guess, some madcap members of Parliament and politicians who think they know something about the environment, who think they know something about an economy, who think they know something about the refining and manufacture of petrol, can go around and say \u201CLook what we did!\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAll they are doing, by the way, is helping a couple of businesses in New Zealand get rich. They cannot sell their product commercially, so they come to Parliament, they get their product legislated for, and they get it into the market place. How mad is that? The next time I hear Steve Chadwick worry about the effect of rising costs on middle-income workers and low-income workers, I will tell her she is shedding crocodile tears. I would have included Darien Fenton, but I do not think she actually cares; I think Steve Chadwick does. It is this legislation, aided and abetted by the crooked New Zealand First Party, that will add costs on to New Zealanders. It is a disgrace, and David Parker should hang his head in shame. What sort of command and control kind of commissioner of petrol and fuel does he think he is that he can sit in Parliament and dictate the composition of the nation\u2019s fuel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003Eto add the words \u201Cexcept section 34K which shall not come into effect until the regulations under 34GA have been gazetted by Order in Council\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be5aa4ed725e49099c3e2f8573bba7e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294a7b27d0bbf4d349b524406cb0e8fd1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac996f9ce5b548819c9404c8315a43b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac996f9ce5b548819c9404c8315a43b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee divide the bill into the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 5), the Tariff Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Act 1974 Amendment Bill (No 2), pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 245.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227866f7c2f62d4d7192b0da667cd05944\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000864\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000865\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214bb9504a0564385be6c28fc4a847fe4\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022489b0dbd70ad4460b5f8a176cc483150\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022606ea4f5a3bf4eea8b07105a9d424d97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022606ea4f5a3bf4eea8b07105a9d424d97\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 5), the Tariff Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Act 1974 Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. These bills were previously parts of the Biofuel Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe legislation introduces a biofuel sales obligation, and makes other legislative changes to provide for biofuels in the New Zealand fuel market. Record oil prices have compounded the environmental imperative to facilitate alternative transport fuels. The challenge of responding to climate change means that those fuels must be sustainable. Oil companies will be obliged to sell biofuels as a proportion of their overall fuel sales, starting at a rate of 0.5 percent by calorific value this year and rising to 2.5 percent by 2012. Decisions on what type of biofuel to supply, whether bio-ethanol or diesel, how much is blended with fossil fuels, and where industries purchase it\u2014from New Zealand or overseas\u2014will be left to the industries, so as to provide the most cost-effective and appropriate options to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOf course we know that not all biofuels are created equal, and the sustainability of biofuels has come under increasing scrutiny. However, just because some biofuels are not good does not mean to say that all are bad, and the positive of many biofuels is not in doubt. Biofuels in this category already produced in New Zealand include bio-diesel from tallow and waste cooking oil, as well as some amounts of ethanol from whey. This legislation will provide sustainability requirements, and will ensure that biofuels qualifying for the obligation will reduce greenhouse gas emissions relative to fossil fuels and avoid negative impacts on food production and biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI say one other thing in respect of the frequently misrepresented assertions as to cost. We are advised that the cost of the additional infrastructure that oil companies need in order to blend and deliver these biofuels is between 0.2c to 0.4c per litre of fuel delivered, assuming that the cost is recovered over a 4-year period. The overall cost to consumers, including that infrastructure cost and the fuel cost, of course will depend upon the future price of oil, the future cost of biofuels, and the exchange rate. The range of estimates provided to the select committee suggested a price impact between an extra cost of 1.3c per litre, on average, at one end of the range, and at the other end of the range a saving to consumers of 4c per litre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt is clear that New Zealand does need to make a transition towards cleaner fuels and towards renewable fuels, for both environmental and cost reasons. We have to start. Further delay is the National Party\u2019s suggestion, but it would be the wrong course to take. I thank the other parties in this Parliament for their indications of support for the legislation. I commend the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 5), the Tariff Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Act 1974 Amendment Bill (No 2) to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022868158e391a745c391cb3b18e093b574\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022868158e391a745c391cb3b18e093b574\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is asking tonight for this country to embark on a great big unsubstantiated experiment, and it is asking this Parliament to support it: \u201CLet us have a shot at biofuels. Let us introduce a bill that will make them compulsory, and let us see if it works.\u201D But during the whole debate that we have had this afternoon and this evening, the Government has not been able to put forward one substantive fact to back up its argument that we should move forward on this in the manner it is suggesting. The Government is saying: \u201CLet us have a go.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe Government has looked at all the evidence, as the select committee did. We looked at the evidence that had been given to the OECD. We looked at the advice given by the UK House of Commons environmental audit, the G8 conference of legislators, and other worldwide august bodies. All of them, without fail, said there is great doubt about the introduction of biofuels into a country. They said, and we have heard it said tonight, that the worry in countries where biofuels have been developed, for example in Europe, is that African nations have been asked to provide biofuel at the expense of feeding their populations; people are going hungry as a consequence of other countries getting involved in biofuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe have heard tonight that this Government has already admitted that it knows there is no absolute evidence that this sort of legislation will work in this country. The Government can point to no evidence. There is not one iota of evidence anywhere to say that this sort of legislation has been proven. But the Government tonight is asking this Parliament and this country to embark on an experiment and its reason is that we have to start somewhere. The Government says that it is certainly the Greens\u2019 argument and United Future\u2019s argument that we have to get off the ground and get going somewhere, so we might as well do it. Well, that is all very well. Why does this experiment have to be in New Zealand? Why does it have to be on the people of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a774ccb39a346f2aa343432d396d7a8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: No one else is stupid enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224326f265068e4dbcaec6c024486b6765\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is actually the nub of the issue. The fact is that no one is arguing about using biofuels; we are saying to let competition introduce it, because it will then get on and it will be accepted. But where its introduction has to be forced, where that has to be done by rules and regulations, it is bound to fail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe co-leader of the Green Party said: \u201CWell, of course we don\u2019t have to worry about all those things overseas. We don\u2019t have to worry about the negative impact that it might have on African countries.\u201D, as did the member from New Zealand First. He said: \u201CWe had a look at it. We know that it has a negative impact\u2014that people will starve because of the introduction of biofuels\u2014but we can\u2019t do anything about it so we won\u2019t worry about that. It\u2019s OK. We\u2019ll do it here. It doesn\u2019t matter if they starve over there, because it will happen anyway. We can\u2019t do anything about it, so we won\u2019t worry about it.\u201D Actually, we do have a responsibility. The point is that if we look at biofuels just from a New Zealand perspective, the impact we will have worldwide is virtually zilch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a1817b2bb44f4db24206a18b5a9699\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Virtually? It\u2019s totally zilch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226017276b6adf46538e7f4e7c407396e2\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we might be able to mount an argument that it might have a sliver of impact somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628cb10f8a294085ad3f97f6737af98c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I have got more hair on my head than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b2857363fe41009f058a94edf418f4\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! That is the very point. In fact, we should use the member\u2019s head as an example of how the experiment will not work, because quite honestly we can\u2019t grow hair where it ain\u2019t going to grow. We are not going to make an impact where it ain\u2019t going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe sad thing is that are asking New Zealanders to pay for this unfortunate experience. With this unfortunate experience we are saying to New Zealanders: \u201CLook, we will have a bit of a go, but we know it will cost you money.\u201D The Minister said in his third reading speech that he thought there might be a bit of a cost, or that there could be some saving. Well, he actually contradicts the Minister of Finance, who said it will cost this country money. He said that it will cost this country money. In every bit of evidence that came before the select committee, no one said that they would make a saving, or that some people would be better off. No one anywhere suggested that from a financial perspective this was a positive. Everyone argued, to a greater or lesser degree\u2014the amounts we debated in the select committee ranged between 1.5c and 7c; those were the amounts put forward\u2014but the fact was that no one said: \u201CBy the way, we can save you some money. Jibe up with us and we will fix it up, and you will be better off.\u201D Nobody argued that, at all. That is the problem. The Minister of Finance acknowledged in his contribution in the Committee that the legislation will cost this nation money. It will cost the people of this country more money out of their hard-earned income. I say that quite honestly, that is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFinally, we have the matter of making the legislation compulsory before we have set the standards, which is absolutely nuts. You know, there is no reason why we have to rush into this. Nobody has stood up\u2014maybe some speakers, maybe Peter Brown will stand up and convince\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ea1603d48846cf8d11a46d60373c4c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: If you pay him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146d0d091dbc4ddfb8fd7ea3ef989644\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not know\u2014people will pay for this, so maybe that is what happens. But the point is that no one has been able to put forward an argument to convince us that we should make it compulsory and then worry about setting the standards later. I have to say that that is the dopiest thing I have ever heard. In all the time I have been in this House I have never yet seen legislation that puts the horse before the cart, but this bill does. All we will end up with is a biofuels issue that backs right up and rolls over itself. That is what will happen. It will roll right over itself. It will not work, and I have to say that no convincing arguments, at all, have been put forward by anybody in this debate tonight to say why we should be the country that embarks on this experiment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say again that no one is arguing about the use of biofuels\u2014no one is arguing about that\u2014but the issue is the way we are going about it. People will argue, and I know that Jeanette Fitzsimons will argue, that we need to get started. Peter Dunne came down and said \u201CLet\u2019s get going.\u201D Well, no one is arguing about the fact that we should address these issues; it is just a matter of how we go about it. The fact is that this legislation will just set us off on the wrong track. It will set us off on a way that will actually end up being a negative. Instead of something that could have been positive for our nation, and positive for our people, we will end up with some legislation that will be to the detriment of this country and to the detriment of those things we are trying to achieve. I say tonight that if this bill is passed, this country will be the poorer for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed7b5979d40247dcaebd28002c5cacaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed7b5979d40247dcaebd28002c5cacaf\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to stand and support the third reading of these bills. The member who has just taken his seat, John Carter, is actually the deputy chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee that worked on the Biofuel Bill. But one would not guess that, because he clearly did not listen to a single submitter who came to the select committee, or read a single paper produced by the officials. All the statements he has made in this House have been total misinterpretations and deliberate misinterpretations of what was said at the select committee. Some submitters said that this would save consumers money; it is not true to say that none did. Some biofuel producers said\u2014and people may say that they may well say this\u2014that when they had done their figures and looked at the oil prices, they believed that their product could save consumers money. The fact is that they came and said that, and it is completely untrue to stand in this House and only give the opinion and the submissions of the oil companies. We need to represent all the submitters who came and submitted to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is also completely not true\u2014and saying this shows that the member did not read his papers\u2014that we are the only country using biofuels. That is a completely ridiculous statement. In fact, submitters from international biofuel production companies came to the select committee to tell us about the targets or obligations in other countries that they were currently meeting. So again it is completely wrong to say that we were told at the select committee that we are the very first country in the world ever to use biofuels. Of course, biofuels are also already being used sustainably in New Zealand, and the very strong message we had from that industry was \u201CPlease give us some certainty. We have this little bit going but because of the uncertainty in the sector we cannot grow our domestic biofuel industry without a biofuel obligation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis bill has not been rushed through the House. The select committee reported back on 23 June. The Hon Dr Nick Smith had more than 2 months to consult parties in this House on his amendment to the Biofuel Bill, but he chose not to do that; he chose not to talk to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c122e25d9c19412da325ee2c4e12835e\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He put it in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225928e15f48c4de8b2dcdeea13b2cf99\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: That does not matter, I say to Mr Carter. He did not tell us that he would be reintroducing it in the House. I believe he actually introduced it at the select committee at the last minute, as well. But the important point is that he could have come and talked to us about this, and he chose not to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI have said that my issue with Dr Smith\u2019s amendment is that it is a very convenient excuse to never have a biofuel obligation if one says one will have one only if there are sustainability standards. Mr Carter has talked about putting the cart before the horse; I suggest that if Dr Smith\u2019s amendment had passed there would be no cart\u2014there would absolutely be no cart. He would come under pressure to never produce the sustainability standard, and we would never have a biofuel obligation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI go back to the point I made earlier. One of the important reasons for having this bill is that we need to create some certainty for biofuel producers in New Zealand. They said to us quite clearly when they heard about this amendment that had been raised at the select committee: \u201CPlease, don\u2019t do that. It just reintroduces all the uncertainty and we will never know when we will have an obligation. We may never have an obligation and we will never see the investment coming into New Zealand to build that domestic biofuel industry that we know there is the potential for.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat is a very good reason to pass this legislation. Another good reason\u2014as has already been raised in earlier debates\u2014is that at the moment there are no sustainability standards. The sustainability principles in this legislation are a huge step forward. We have said over and over again that this legislation is not a silver bullet. No one voting for it has said that they believe it is a silver bullet. But it is an important step on the road towards sustainable biofuels. We all know that second and third-generation biofuels are likely to be far better than the ones we are dealing with at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the time for excuses has long passed. We have worked on this bill for a long time, and it has been reported back from the select committee for a long time. The National Party has had plenty of time to consult other parties in this House if it wanted to bring amendments, but Dr Smith chose just to dump his amendment in the Committee on the night. I do not think that he can reliably stand up and accuse the rest of us of not voting for it because we are terrible people and we hate the people of New Zealand, when he did not give us the opportunity to even consider the Supplementary Order Paper that he brought into this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe legislation clearly spells out sustainable principles. The sustainability principles in there already will leave some of the biofuel sellers in absolutely no doubt about which biofuels are absolutely off the table. As we have said before, if we are going to put some kind of sustainability principles in the legislation, they told us that they would like to know what they will be like so that they will know, when they go into their long-term agreements with biofuel producers, whether in 9 months\u2019 time those will be knocked out by the sustainability principles in the legislation when the methodology and mechanisms are done by Order in Council. The principles are already there and they are quite clear. It is the methodology and the mechanisms that will be done by Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Minister has already referred to the price. The oil companies came to the select committee and quite fairly said they thought it would be 3c to 7c, and the biofuel producers came and said they thought it could save us a lot of money. We got our officials to do some work on it to find out what we thought it would be. We were told that the large portion of the costs would come from the infrastructure investment that was required. Our officials came back and told us that, based on the figures provided to them by the oil companies, it would be 0.2c to 04.c a litre for 4 years if they recouped all that cost in 4 years, which of course they will not. That was the basis for the infrastructure costs. We found, when we looked at a table based on possible prices of oil versus possible prices of biofuels, that our officials told us that a 1.3c a litre increase was at one end, and at the other end was a 4c per litre savings for the consumer, primarily because of the rising price of oil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESo, in fact, on balance, this legislation is more likely to lower that cost than raise it. But one would not guess that from the speeches made by the National Party members, who all have this information, because they were on the Local Government and Environment Committee, and they have the same reports that we have, but who choose to mention only the range that was quoted by the oil companies, not that given by our officials or any of the other people who came along to the select committee hearings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI will point out one other thing to the National Party members who get up and say how much they care for mums and dads: they did not care about mums and dads when they told us they were going to lift the cap on general practitioners\u2019 fees. They did not care about superannuitants when they slashed superannuation. They did not care about mums and dads when they opposed Working for Families, or when they opposed 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education. They seem to care about mums and dads only when it is a convenient excuse to vote against legislation like this. I also say to those members that although I am very pleased to see they have discovered that there are poor people in the world\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146dc6078d77437f9885baa17a29c578\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a disgraceful thing to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f63564bf4894465aab22c82630db8852\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it is very difficult to sit here and listen to them go on about it when they only ever mention it, I say to Mr Power, as an excuse to vote against the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill and any climate change legislation in this House. Some consistency would be nice, and then we might take them seriously on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI say to those members that they should read the sustainability principles. We have been clear that biofuel crops cannot compete with food production, and that they cannot be grown on land of high production value. We have addressed that issue in this bill. Read the legislation, I say to National members, before standing up and giving another speech that completely misrepresents what this legislation does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022993e471675304f5aa0b6ed41d6ce8b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022993e471675304f5aa0b6ed41d6ce8b25\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Why are we rushing this legislation through the House now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f86ccdde6a34646afe2473273c44b65\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, did you even listen? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e865a79adf74fe2a5e84b61d1369a53\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait, I say to the member. It is not because it is good legislation. It is because the Government has to be seen to be doing something now about climate change, after 9 long years of inaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere has been much debate tonight and, in fact, right round the world about the environmental benefits of biofuels. We have heard from dozens of world experts who are concerned about the use of biofuels, and who debate the actual benefits of them. But Labour knows that those experts are wrong. There has been much debate about the cost of introducing the legislation, and we have heard Moana Mackey, the chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee, going through those costs just now. A whole series of economists and people who work in the industry have given us their estimates. Moana Mackey is concerned that we in the National Party are considering what the oil companies say, but the oil companies do work in the industry, so that is significant as well. The Labour Party knows that those people are wrong, and that this will not add costs\u2014in fact, experts right across the board are wrong in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThere has been much talk about the New Zealand Government requiring sustainable biofuels, and about the Order in Council that will provide the criteria for these fuels, and Moana Mackey just suggested that we look at the principles that are in the Biofuel Bill. So let us have a little look at them. They are in new section 34GA(3) in clause 9 of Part 1. The principles of sustainable biofuels are as follows. The first principle is less greenhouse gas: \u201CSustainable biofuels emit significantly less greenhouse gas over their life cycle than obligation engine fuel.\u201D We agree with that. That makes sense\u2014over their life cycle, we should get less greenhouse gas. But the bill goes on to state that \u201Cthe Order in Council must\u2014(a) specify a methodology for life cycle assessment of greenhouse gas emissions from obligation engine fuels;\u201D. That is an enormously difficult exercise. We know that people have tried to do that right round the world, and no one has been able to come up with any sensible way to do it effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EParagraph (b) of this principle states that the Order in Council must \u201Cspecify minimum levels of no less than 35% greenhouse gas emission reductions for qualifying biofuels \u2026\u201D. If we have a problem focusing on and sorting out how much that life cycle of greenhouse gas emissions is, how can we possibly discover whether it is 35 percent less? So, yes, in principle that makes sense, but in practice it is going to be enormously difficult to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ELet us look at the second principle, which is to do with food production. \u201CSustainable biofuels do not compete with food production and are not grown on land of high value for food production.\u201D The problem with that is that this will also be enormously difficult to assess, to monitor, and to ensure that sustainable biofuels are involved. They must not be by-products of food production\u2014the ethanol from sugar cane grown in circumstances described by the Order in Council\u2014and they talk about rotational oil seed crops. Again we have to come up with a methodology to figure out whether this will be good for biofuel and not food production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWe are also saying here that they must come up with a mechanism that recognises the particular land, and that includes land outside New Zealand. Can members imagine the amount of work that has to go into analysing land not only in New Zealand but also land outside New Zealand that would be used for high-value food production? It would be an enormous task. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ELet us look at Principle 3, which is to do with biodiversity and land with high conservation value. We have the same problem as with the assessment of land for food production. We have to come up with a mechanism to recognise this particular land both inside and outside New Zealand. When we look at those three principles, yes, they all make sense, and yes, we agree that that would underpin sustainable biofuels, but to come up with that assessment and methodology will be enormously difficult. The bill also states that the Minister must recommend the Order in Council by 30 June 2009. That means there is just over a year and a half to do that\u2014it is not quite as long as that\u2014and we are really concerned that the Minister will not be able to do it. So, yes, in principle the principles behind the idea of sustainable biofuels make sense but in practice it will be very difficult to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ELet us go back to why we are rushing this legislation through the House under urgency. I am a little confused by some of the debate that has gone on tonight. One of the things that David Parker has been saying is that we need to introduce this legislation because unless we do, oil companies will not be prepared to build infrastructure to underpin the use of biofuels. Without compulsion, they will not build the infrastructure. Then, on the other hand, he states that the cost of building infrastructure is minimal\u20140.2c to 0.4c per litre over 4 years. That will not be a huge amount of money to build that infrastructure and it will not affect the cost of biofuels in the long term. So on the one hand the Minister is saying that there has to be compulsion because the cost of infrastructure will not be met otherwise, and on the other hand he says that it is very cheap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EGull has already introduced biofuels to New Zealand and Moana Mackey tells us that Gull\u2019s biofuels are actually cheaper than fossil fuels. So we have a situation where a company has already voluntarily introduced biofuels. Earlier today I spoke about a biofuel trial that went on in the bus fleet in Christchurch, whereby a bus company was voluntarily and keenly using biofuels until the price of tallow went up and made the cost of the fuels prohibitive. The argument here is circular. If the infrastructure demands are not great, and one company is already selling biofuels, why do we need this legislation at all? Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00227268b7ed7ff04443b171884e4c116c74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227268b7ed7ff04443b171884e4c116c74\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It has been the Government\u2019s point of view that the biofuels legislation, as presented to us, has been the best possible outcome; it will be best practice, and world leading. But on this side of the House we say that that is rubbish, when we see the shell, the flimsy framework that makes up the legislation. For instance, if we look at the principles we start to understand the issues and narrow-minded thinking of this Clark-Peters Government in its last days. As a nation, we export 85 percent of what we produce, and we can boast about being the very best protein producers of produce from a grass-fed farming source. That being said, this legislation is presented in a wholly different light. Regardless of the notion of sustainability, which in actual fact probably brought onside the Greens, New Zealand First, United Future, and, for that matter, the M\u0101ori Party, a whole lot of rubbish is made out of that claim that sustainability is the appropriate measure by which to have a biofuels law to underpin infrastructural development, in the context of that notion of growing 0.5 percent in the first year, growing through to 2.5 percent in the fourth year, and then growing onwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhether or not we like it, we live in a global village, and by supporting this legislation to go through the House into law, the Government in actual fact is interfering and creating an otherwise perverse effect. That perverse effect means that unless we create biofuels out of tallow, whey, or waste, we will be producing them on land that we could more efficiently use to produce the proteins for which the world is clamouring. That is no better than the experiment that has occurred throughout the developed world, whereby Governments have sought to create, by tax and other perverse incentives, a biofuel industry within their own countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe have heard the arguments from the Government that we have to get started\u2014\u201CLet\u2019s get on with it!\u201D. But that mentality is a fortress mentality, a fortress New Zealand mentality\u2014that we will inhabit New Zealand in isolation, just amongst ourselves, and become totally efficient. That in my view is a very weak argument. Effectively, that brings us very much back to the question of what a leader nation in this field would do under these circumstances. Well, I will tell the House what a world leader would do. It would get about to partner with international research and development companies, or other nations that are doing research and development, and identify the best solutions going forward. That is not a new idea. In actual fact, when we look at many of the biosecurity risks around farm animals, be they bovine spongiform encephalopathy or foot and mouth disease, we see that this is what is occurring. New Zealand recognises that it does not have the ability, the scientific machine, to do these things on its own, even though it is a pastoral farming leader. It cooperates with Europe and with America, it goes into partnerships with cooperative research centres in Australia, and there is the multiplying effect of a good outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EOn that basis, we are taken back to the arguments that were clearly articulated from this side of the House. We listened to the Minister when he got up and spoke to the second part of the Biofuel Bill, and he made it sound as if this was just so rosy. There was not going to be a problem, and it was not going to cost anybody anything, but all of that flew in the face of a number of the submitters. It also flew in the face of a number of the expert scientific explanations from those countries that have endeavoured to set up a sustainable biofuels industry. It left members on this side of the House with the feeling that there was another agenda in behind all this, which was borne out by the implementation date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe implementation date is 1 October 2008, which has to be considered in the context that it is planned for New Zealand to have a standard of sustainability by July 2009. Even that date is pretty flimsy, because best expert advice has said that it will more likely be 2011. So we can see there is a determination to push this legislation through. Again, we have seen MMP in operation, whereby deals are done to make it politically expedient to be supporting such a notion. Then the numbers are there, and the deal is done. This is standard form for the Clark-Peters Government in its last dying days. It was quite compelling, in my view, to have Nick Smith\u2019s amendment about lining up the date of the implementation of this bill\u2014should it pass into law\u2014with the date of the ability to supply a sustainable standard, an accurate standard. There was some concern expressed about that by the Government, because in its truth of truths it understands just how really difficult it is to find an answer to this. That is borne out by the expert advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the situation here of the biofuels legislation, we see that, clearly, the record from this Government has been abysmal. As far as the Kyoto Protocol obligations go, from 2001 to 2008 we have had some incredibly poor performances. The Government\u2019s performance has been totally underwhelming, to say the least. This legislation is very difficult, and I was disappointed that the Minister did not take the opportunity to explain to members on this side of the House why biomethanol was given a 42.5c advantage or favouritism over bio-diesels. It would suggest to me that there was a very strong and compelling reason for picking winners like that. I do feel that we have rushed this situation. It seems to me to be a political answer in the face of a common-sense way forward. The legislation is certainly something that will come back to this House, because when we go through it, we find that it becomes very complex. There are heaps of regulations and a lot of Orders in Council, and I believe that the Regulations Review Committee will be confronted time and time again with the interpretation of what, indeed, is sustainable\u2014what in actual fact is 35 percent less, by way of carbon emissions in a lifetime, compared with the biofuels produced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is with great disappointment on this side of the House that we are at this time of night\u20149 o\u2019clock in urgency\u2014pushing through legislation that will only have to come back to this House to be tidied up, cleaned up, when there was the opportunity of doing something collaboratively and internationally, and genuinely solving a problem. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8663e2a5ac64e1d9af8c28df6c629df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8663e2a5ac64e1d9af8c28df6c629df\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is typical that in the dying days of a teetering Government, under urgency on a Wednesday night, we are rushing through legislation that sets down\u2014to the hundredth of 1 percent, graduated over time\u2014how much biofuel we are to have in our fuel. This Government wants to tell us what we can put in our kids\u2019 tucker boxes, it wants to regulate our light bulbs, and it wants to regulate every little part of our lives and every part of the value chain of a modern economy. Why do Government members want to do that? There are two reasons. The first is that they love the exercise of power. They love telling people what to do, how to do it, and when they can do it, and they love telling people what they cannot do. They love the moral superiority that power gives them, so this legislation tells oil companies and consumers how they have to mix their fuel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe legislation is like the Electoral Finance Act, which regulates political expression, but of course none of the rules ever apply to the Government. That is the amazing thing. It seems that the Electoral Finance Act does not apply to the Labour Party. The financial disclosure regime does not apply to New Zealand First; it is just for everyone else. The Government can break the law and the rules at will, because it is morally superior. It is everyone else who is corrupt and crooked, and who needs to be told what to do and how to do it. Everyone else needs the finger wagged at them. Even simple principles of common jurisprudence, such as being innocent until proven guilty, apply to the Government when it is in trouble but not to anyone else. It is typical of this legislation, and of the Government\u2019s telling us how to live our lives, that Helen Clark said that a man was an honourable man and innocent until proven guilty, when Judge Dalmer had found, in a court of law in relation to Cushing v Peters, that the man was a liar, and a malicious liar at that. Yet the Serious Fraud Office was guilty. The Serious Fraud Office was guilty of what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224900d8a4595c40c7a02413970b939894\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sure that this is very interesting but I think the member should go back to the legislation. I for one am interested in ACT\u2019s viewpoint on this legislation, but I am beginning to conclude that it does not have one. I believe that Mr Hide should be instructed to go back to the legislation. He can have a wide-ranging debate on the legislation, but the Serious Fraud Office and judgments of years gone by are really not part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cabb085c34b43fd8c9c570fdc29d923\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brown, you must have been reading my mind, because I have just opened up the Speakers\u2019 rulings on relevancy. I was trying to find what, in Mr Hide\u2019s speech, was relevant. Mr Hide, please speak to the legislation before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601cb9dc71f349a38a51f5fecb6b7f25\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to, Madam Assistant Speaker. I was just drawing a long bow about the busybody nature of the Labour-Helen Clark-Peters Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502fc73c385b42e7831c1a37817db850\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go again!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa42ac3bd8294e8daa83631122457d01\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Trevor to pipe down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f150c454d7545ceb3f76b11c66d1934\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I have order from both sides, please. Would you continue with your speech, Mr Hide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7874fb248e4a1f8a8d92f7e367b8b1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: This legislation reflects the busybody nature of this Government. Under this legislation, we will start off with 0.53 percent of biofuels in 2008, and each year the percentage will increase until we end up, according to this bill, at an upper level of 3.4 percent in 2012. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788f620ef4f94e88ad5884f69483a7c5\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member should read the amended bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb481898ddd4465b95a585bc92b3f30\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am just reading the obligation as set up. I ask Mr Brown how much it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234635b6aebdb412c8c0b094e51efca39\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, for goodness\u2019 sake, Mr Hide, read the literature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f053e2485a8d49a9bcaa774e87d24d3f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: How much should it be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2dbc67626164cd292605caf6b1b8a4f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It is 2.5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c8d165c82794188b51d11f5f7e284d1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you see, the level started off at 3.4 percent but the Government members sat around at the Local Government and Environment Committee and decided, with the wisdom of ages, that the level of 3.4 percent was a little high and that it should be put back to 2.5 percent. That is how these guys think we make fuel\u2014that we sit around in a political committee and decide the composition of fuel. The Government knows so much! The level started off at 3.4 percent, but Government members sat around in the select committee and decided, after getting expert opinion from engineers, after hearing all the cost-benefit analysis, and with their super knowledge of the world climate, that the level should be\u2014what was it, I ask Mr Brown\u20142.5 percent. But that is just the start, because each year the level will be ratcheted up a wee bit. But the Government cannot tell us what the environmental benefit of it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225386925427a748118c191c8baf3ff8e5\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll bet you Jeannette Fitzsimons can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262e5decb90d346c49773ebc20bbeb5da\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I bet she cannot, actually, because I promise members that we do not know what the resource costs of the scheme are at the margin, and what its impact on the environment will be. If Mr Brown thinks that the environment and the economy are such simple things that we can set a simple percentage, crank it up by 0.5 percent each year, and suddenly achieve a net gain, then he is under a massive misapprehension about the complexity of an economy, the complexity of social interactions, and, in particular, the complexity of the environment. It is not a system that can be easily engineered. It is not a mechanical system where one can push here and get a result over there. It is far more subtle and far more complex than that. Indeed, I ask Mr Brown why, if the Government has confidence in its emissions trading scheme, he is debating this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3788e386c9a46389a505b8d75ee1c2b\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure you don\u2019t want me to answer that, Rodney. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f518389e274ed2be03e1db95abc3d3\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I look forward to Mr Brown taking a call to tell us whether he has confidence in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI heard Mr Brown, and some Government speakers, say that the fuel companies were against the bill but that the biofuel suppliers were in favour of it. Well, that is a surprise. Why not do this for other things? Why not do it for carrots? Why not say that when we eat dinner, 2.5 percent of it must be carrots? I am sure that if we did that, the carrot growers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ba02a183ff4e9a9e6b485288ff0cfc\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Brussels sprouts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d91368ebc1489180ecb07024dfbcb9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Brussels sprouts will be next. Government members will sit around and debate what percentage of our food intake should be carrots and what percentage should be brussels sprouts, because they know best. Here is the interesting thing: if we did that, carrot suppliers would probably come along to a select committee and make a submission, saying that they thought the percentage should be a bit higher and that it would be good for the environment. Even that great arch-interventionist, Sir Robert Muldoon, never got down to this level of detail and specificity\u2014never\u2014because he was not that vain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1ab3783d7844efbb20bd865ddd63f8c\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Speci-what? Can you say that again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0fb6cdc4ad4464aad7dcadb287cfdbc\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Clayton Cosgrove has opened up. How interesting! I ask him how the real estate bill is going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c55036178b4603a3a0bea131caa551\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on; help is on the way, Rodney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da685bfe303e45b394a425224384434e\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He must have sorted out Mr Peters, because he says that help is on the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022329ca110b47942a9ab2ec986f1e6ee7d\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: He went on the list because he knows he\u2019ll lose Waimakariri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc705f29fd4e46e3883044111f2bd0b7\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He has got on the list? What an admission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229335897e25704a0b8117fc5a6d2db882\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d22d9d36d3574df0af840106e009c88d\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: After all these years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022839db89147cc425bae46e65706d602eb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Could we come to the legislation, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2cf19aad0694653bb7b1e0a3cc8b8e8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but if Mr Cosgrove is chipping at me about the English language, am I not allowed to respond? Is that now against the rules, too, Madam Assistant Speaker? Is it only allowed to be all one way in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299e8ceed1a17477fb6401bf741196d59\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is trifling. Would the member sit down, please; I am on my feet. There was a chip, there was an answer back, and then we started up a conversation there that was totally off the legislation. The member had 1 minute to go, and he now has 30 seconds to go. Would the member please complete his call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ad4829233f45f88344a8584fe0d3c7\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I just wish that Speakers would actually let a person speak, and not let it be all one-way traffic from that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f72b41cb6e24964825fe01e75c7f41c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The point of order is one that is absolutely obvious. The member is now commenting again on your ruling. Clearly that is in breach of Speakers\u2019 rulings over many, many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dfab4b4dfa04420a2e734d1b5a02046\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you, Mr Mallard; I doubt whether I need much help at the moment. The member has 15 seconds still to go, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b0c88b24f1544168de353bc36949acf\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It is going quickly. Anyway, it is for those reasons that we oppose this legislation, we oppose this Government, we oppose Clayton Cosgrove in Waimakariri\u2014it is good news that even he has given up\u2014and we oppose New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002286e2300178cf4f0eb62955fd25118173\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286e2300178cf4f0eb62955fd25118173\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation provides certainty for business investors who are poised to invest significant money in infrastructure in this country. It is the sort of certainty that the National Party often demands for investors, but it is not voting for this legislation. It will allow investors to set up a plant to use low-value by-products\u2014like tallow, whey, and, eventually, waste wood and algae\u2014to reduce our dependence on imported oil. The legislation is a small step towards reducing our oil dependence and carbon emissions, but the investment will create the infrastructure that will allow us to build on those quantities and to make a more substantial contribution in the future, when new resources and technologies become available with second-generation biofuels. But the National Party is not voting for the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe arguments we have heard against this legislation this afternoon and tonight are based on a mixture of such overwhelming, mind-boggling ignorance by some, and on an absolute determination by others to ignore all the facts no matter how many times they are put in front of them, that it is actually very hard to know where to start to reply to the nonsense that has been thrown around the House tonight. My colleague Russel Norman said this afternoon, when I just happened to catch the end of his speech, that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I think that has been demonstrated by a number of the speakers here tonight. We had John Carter saying that this is an experiment, and asking where the evidence was that it would work. Well, it has been working in Brazil for 40 years. Is that long enough for Mr Carter? For 40 years the Brazilians have been blending biofuel with their petrol, and in the process they have become less dependent on imported oil and have had more security of fuel supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f950b4a7259a4b91a31464c517e1e57d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why Brazil flies along\u2014it\u2019s so prosperous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228856f78d7fde43b1ae78163c772b36a0\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: Brazil is growing faster than New Zealand is, if that is Mr Hide\u2019s measure. Many other countries also have proven biofuel blends. It is not rocket science, it is not hard, and it is certainly not an experiment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENick Smith said that ethanol from sugar cane in Brazil is displacing the Amazon rainforest. Well, I am sorry, but sugar cane does not grow on the sort of land that grows the Amazon rainforest. It is grown in an entirely different part of the country. It is soy beans and cattle that are displacing the Amazon rainforest. If, in fact, at some future time Brazilian ethanol was shown to be displacing some kind of forest and biodiversity, then this legislation creates the regulatory mechanism to keep it out of New Zealand, whereas at the moment we cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EJohn Carter said that biofuels are being grown in Africa and are causing starvation because they are grown on land that should be growing food for humans. He is right. It is one of the great, outrageous tragedies of the world at the moment that the rich are filling the tanks of their sport utility vehicles with grains that ought to be filling the stomachs of the poor. But John Carter knows that this legislation will not allow any fuels of that kind into New Zealand. He knows that, because we have said that repeatedly in the House in front of him. He knows it, because the Greens have required the introduction of section 34GA, which is to be inserted in the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Act by this legislation, and which sets out very clearly the sustainability standards that fuels must meet before they are allowed into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EActually, if the Greens had been designing this legislation from scratch, we would have made it much simpler than it is. We would have set up a framework for biofuels to be grown in New Zealand, and we would not have had any imports, because the ones that will meet our standards are pretty much all New Zealand - grown anyway. But because of deference to the world trade system, the Government was not prepared to say we would not have imported biofuels because they are mostly junk, they are mostly unsustainable, they are a bad idea, and we should do our own thing better and do it here. So instead we had to come up with the sustainability standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner is so worried about the sustainability standard that she says we cannot do life-cycle analysis for carbon reductions from biofuels. Well, I am sorry, but the tables exist. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment presented them to the Local Government and Environment Committee. A whole lot of international biofuels have been analysed for their life-cycle carbon reduction and for their effects on food growing and on biodiversity. So, once again, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENick Smith says it is to be 9 whole months before we will have any regulations, and during that time the country could be flooded with unsustainable biofuels and the regulations will not be in place. Well, first of all, I say he did not believe in his own remedy enough to discuss his amendment with us in advance. We might well have said there was a point there and asked to look at his amendment, but instead he just tabled it in the Committee because what he was trying to do was to make a political point that nobody would vote for it. So he had to make sure that he did not tell us about his amendment first, in case we did vote for it. Nick Smith also knows that there is a reporting obligation on anyone who brings biofuels across the border during that 9 months to state and to publish where they come from. He does not trust the New Zealand public enough, after all the articles there have been in the popular press about the damage that is being done to food supplies in poor countries and the damage that is being done to biodiversity, especially in South-east Asia, to say they will not buy the brand of fuel that has been created by knocking over South-east Asian rainforests. And that is quite apart from the fact that during that 9 months the quantities of biofuel coming into New Zealand will be so tiny that they will hardly be the cause of world starvation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis Saturday the National Party is holding a conference on Waiheke Island called the Bluegreens conference. This is where the National Party claims to have the answers for the environment. National members are trying to paint themselves as the environmental party. What they have demonstrated tonight is that they are mostly too ignorant to even do a good job of misleading the public about the biofuels legislation. The people on Waiheke Island on Saturday will not buy the rubbish that we have heard tonight; they are far too well informed for that. They know that right now there is nothing to stop the import of the biofuels that cause starvation in Africa, and that Nick Smith says he wants to perpetuate that situation by not passing this legislation. They know that at the moment there is nothing to stop the import of biofuels made from palm oil in South-east Asia after the rainforests have been knocked over, and that Nick Smith wants to perpetuate that situation by not passing this legislation. They know that this legislation will stop those unsustainable biofuels coming into New Zealand, that it will create a new, profitable industry in New Zealand\u2014which is surely something that we want\u2014and that the Greens have achieved that through section 34GA, which sets the sustainability standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe should all be passing this legislation and getting on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00220807fad783c54b4e961c099a37ca50b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220807fad783c54b4e961c099a37ca50b2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E When this legislation was first introduced, New Zealand First was of the opinion that biofuels would be of some advantage to our environment, but to what degree? Well, frankly, we did not know, and we thought that some of the concerns we had would outweigh those advantages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe first thing we questioned was why we should be world leaders in this sort of issue and with this sort of legislation. But when we checked on that we found that we were not. The USA uses biofuels. Brazil uses biofuels and has been doing so, according to Jeanette Fitzsimons, for some 40 years. Canada, most European countries, Australia, China, India, and Thailand have all used biofuels for quite some time, as I understand. Frankly, Gull is selling biofuels at this moment in Auckland. So we are not world leaders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb93a309e80477687ac5f87e7fc8697\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: And at less than petrol prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38e97f6b94a4793824a07212ca9be68\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: And at a lower price than petrol\u2014that is very interesting. So that addressed our concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe were concerned about the effect on car engines, and whether the engines would have to be modified. When we checked into that we found that most cars could easily run on a modest or low amount of biofuel, be it diesel or petrol. So that was another hurdle that was overcome. We were concerned that bio-diesel might become clogged in engines in cold weather. We understand that tests have been done on that and they have come through quite well\u2014no problems at all, in fact. We were concerned that biofuels could get into aeroplane engines with ethanol in the tank\u2014we know that ethanol absorbs water. But the Minister addressed that question in the House this very evening when I put it to him. We were equally concerned about water in outboard motors in leisure boats\u2014that if they were compelled to use biofuels, they would hit problems and malfunction and stop, but the Minister addressed that in the House tonight. We were concerned that productive land would be used to grow crops on to make bio-ethanol, but the Local Government and Environment Committee addressed that and amended the bill accordingly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe were concerned about the cost. We have heard figures ranging from 4c to 7c a litre on bio-petrol, but the officials tell us that it ranges from 0.2c to 0.4c a litre. And, if the price of oil goes up, it could well make biofuels cheaper than normal ordinary petrol. That is the cost, according to the Minister, when spread over 4 years, and if spread over a longer term, it will be even less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESo, one by one, all the concerns that New Zealand First had were addressed. We came to the conclusion that the advantages do outweigh the concerns, so New Zealand First will accept that there are advantages to our environment from using biofuels. We understand that to develop them the industry needs certainty, and it needs certainty to invest. The only way we can achieve that is by passing this sort of legislation. New Zealand First supports this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227fc75de8579b44e7863df65310430084\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Energy (Fuels, Levies, and References) Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 5), the Tariff Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Local Government Act 1974 Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field;.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a58acab6fca648bd9519fe0f54456434\u0022\u003ECommerce Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229336d0f073ac4d2ba208cc6c7573b6a7\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00220980fa8a34e04b9ca73a407d3c6ab674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220980fa8a34e04b9ca73a407d3c6ab674\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Commerce Amendment Bill be now read a second time. The overarching objective of this bill is to provide for efficient and cost-effective regulation of the price and quality of key goods and services that are not subject to competition, and to do so in a way that promotes greater certainty, and incentives to invest and innovate for regulated businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn practice the number of services not subject to competition is small. However, they tend to be important services, relating as they do to essential infrastructure such as electricity lines, gas pipelines, and airports. The Commerce Committee has recommended a number of amendments to strengthen the bill, and the Government both welcomes and supports these improvements. The bill introduces a specific purpose statement for economic regulation, which is a significant improvement to the current Act. I would go so far as to say that the absence of such a purpose statement has led to considerable uncertainty, which has affected the ability of infrastructure companies to make timely investment decisions. The new purpose statement makes it clear that the objective is the long-term benefit of consumers of goods or services that are not faced with competition or the likelihood of a substantial increase in competition. This is to be achieved by promoting outcomes consistent with those in competitive markets, including providing incentives to suppliers to invest, innovate, and improve efficiency while requiring them to share efficiency gains with consumers and to limit excessive profits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill makes it clear that regulation may be imposed only if three criteria are met: namely, there is little or no competition, and little or no likelihood of a substantial increase in competition; there is scope for the exercise of substantial market power taking into account the effectiveness of existing regulation or arrangements, including ownership arrangements; and, importantly, the benefits of regulation must materially exceed the cost. Getting the rules right is critical for promoting confidence and providing certainty for businesses, particularly for infrastructure providers who need to invest in long-life assets. One of the main criticisms of the current regime is the lack of certainty and predictability on crucial regulatory matters, such as how to calculate the cost of capital and value assets, allocate common costs, and so forth. To address this, the bill requires the Commerce Commission to develop as a priority the rules, requirements, and procedures\u2014and we have described them as input methodologies\u2014for regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI note that submitters were unanimous in supporting the intent of these provisions, but were concerned that, as drafted, these objectives might not be achieved. It is pleasing to note that the select committee has given considerable thought to this, and recommends strengthening these provisions to require the commission to develop the rules in sufficient detail to provide predictability and certainty for businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced provides for a right of appeal on the Commerce Commission\u2019s determinations on input methodologies. The appeal is to the High Court, with the judge sitting with expert lay members. The select committee has recommended that should the High Court decide to amend or substitute a new input methodology it would need to meet the test of being materially better in meeting the purpose statement. This is a sensible criterion to apply in the circumstances where we have an expert body, but where it is essentially the rule maker and the regulator. In Australia there are separate bodies in the energy sector to make the rules on the one hand, and to implement the rules on the other. New Zealand simply does not have the scale to achieve the separation, so the appeal right was designed to essentially mimic the separation of functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe biggest change to the bill recommended by the committee is providing for appeals to the High Court on the commission\u2019s final decisions on customised or individual price-quality paths. Submitters were unanimous in supporting such appeals. Appeals that may be lodged in order to game the process are dealt with by excluding matters already determined as input methodologies and providing for the commission\u2019s decisions to apply, pending an appeal. For those who have read my concerns, which I expressed before the bill was introduced, about the potential for gaming, I can say I am satisfied with this approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EUnder the current regime, price control is the only response available to address markets where goods and services are not subject to competition. We consider that it is desirable to provide a range of regulatory options to provide fit-for-purpose regulation. In this regard the bill provides for the following alternative forms of regulation to price control. The first is information disclosure, which is a relatively non-intrusive form of regulation that requires firms to disclose information to the public about their costs, prices, asset management plans, and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second option is negotiate/arbitrate. This form of regulation requires a supplier to negotiate prices in supply agreements with its customers, with compulsory arbitration if parties cannot agree. The commission will set the processes and procedures for negotiation and arbitration, and if the parties cannot agree on an arbitrator, then the commission will be responsible for appointing one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe next is the default and customised pathway. This form of regulation requires the commission to set a simple, relatively low-cost default price-quality path for regulated suppliers for 5-year periods. The key feature of the default price path is that the rate of change in prices will be determined by the consumer price index, less a requirement for productivity improvement based on long-run productivity improvement rates for the sector. Suppliers will be able to apply to the Commerce Commission for a customised price-quality path if they can justify this\u2014for example, because they need to make significant new investments. The commission would be required to make decisions within 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill has specific subparts that set out how economic regulation will apply to electricity lines business, gas pipelines, and airports. For electricity lines businesses, Part 4A will be repealed. Small consumer-owned businesses will be subject to information disclosure regulation only. This is because consumers, as owners, are able to ensure that the business looks after its long-term interests. These provisions should significantly reduce compliance costs and avoid complex regulation where the risk that the long-term interests of consumers will not be met is relatively low. However, as a safeguard, consumers will be able to petition the commission if they consider that increased regulation is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EFor other electricity lines businesses, information disclosure and the new default customised regime will apply. This new regime is expected to provide greater certainty for businesses than the current Part 4A. This is the result of a combination of design features, such as requiring input methodologies to be set in advance, provision of an upfront opportunity for firms to apply for customised paths, statutory time frames for processes, and the introduction of conventional penalties and remedies. I mention that because the real benefit is that it removes the requirement to breach thresholds before being able to negotiate with the commission, which, under the current arrangements, is an administrative settlement based on past history, rather than a customised approach going forward. The bill also provides detailed transitional arrangements. I note that the committee has recommended improvements to these provisions in response to submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe key change for the regulation of gas pipelines recommended by the committee is for the gas pipelines of Powerco and Vector, which are currently under price control, to transition to the new default customised regime for other gas pipelines in 2012 rather than 2016, or at an earlier date agreed with the commission. Other gas pipelines will be subject to a default customised regime from 1 July 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESpecified airport activities supplied by the Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch international airports will be subject to information disclosure from 1 July 2010, and the Commerce Commission will monitor disclosed information and report to Ministers after 2012 as to whether the information disclosure regime is effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say that I am confident that this bill is a significant improvement on the current provisions and that it will improve certainty for businesses, provide better incentives to invest, and protect consumers from excessive prices and poor quality where there are no competitive pressures to do so. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank the officials and the Commerce Committee for their hard work on this bill, for the careful consideration they have given to submissions, and for a unanimous and timely report recommending worthwhile improvements to the bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00222fb1aee3f3764a3383c72080bd742d59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fb1aee3f3764a3383c72080bd742d59\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E It is nice to be talking on an upbeat matter in this House\u2014the Commerce Amendment Bill. I want to pick up the Minister on something she said towards the end of her speech. Indeed, the Commerce Committee did work well on this issue. For those who have not followed this particular legislation\u2014although if I am right, and if I may refer to you directly, Madam Assistant Speaker, you were in the Chair at the time this bill was read the first time and you took some interest in input methodologies, as I recall. But having said that, I note that the Minister is right in the sense that this bill did, in the end, get the unanimous support of the Commerce Committee. That might sound like the sort of thing that one should just sweep over when talking about a report back or a second reading of a bill, but this is extremely complex legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the Hon Paul Swain, and just for a moment will make a comment to that effect. He really held up the end for the Labour Party on that committee and got his head around the detail quicker than most. I have to say that the discussions that occurred on that committee between the Hon Paul Swain, the chairperson, and, to a far lesser extent, myself probably saw this legislation move in a reasonably friendly and constructive way. That does not mean that there were not serious and very big consequences for many of the industries that have the potential to be covered by this legislation if the committee had got this wrong. In fact, the amount of detailed discussion that went into this was vast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Minister, as I recall it, wrote to the committee part-way through the proceedings indicating her suggestion that the committee look at a number of issues relating to the stages of appeal on merit review, and various other matters. That was helpful, actually, because the National Party, during the first reading, drew those matters to the attention of the Minister at that time and said that there would be some issues that we would need to deal with in the committee and it would be helpful if we could get some guidance from the Minister in charge of the bill, and that guidance came. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI will not go over the material that the Minister went over. I will leave that to the detailed discussion in the Committee stage, when we really get into the nitty-gritty around valuations, the weighted average cost of capital, and other input methodologies. I am sure that the Minister will be happy to answer any practical questions in that regard as we work our way through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of things that the National Party will be watching. The Minister has alluded to one or two of them, but I want to make these points. During the course of the open parts of the committee\u2014that is, the parts that were open to the public\u2014members on our side of the table were keen to know from the submitters whether they thought the Commerce Commission had the capacity and the expertise to deliver on time the detailed input methodology requirements for the purposes of this bill. The Commerce Commission assured the committee when it came before it that that was the case, and we look forward to making sure that that indeed does occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOn the appeals issue, the Minister made a reference to gaming, which is something that members on this side raised at the first reading. There was a lot of discussion about whether the point of appeal or merit review should occur once the input methodologies had been determined prior to the price-setting discussions commencing or at the final practical implementation stage of that pricing formula. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc61af487de480a886e1b7330d841b5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Or both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9ff5cb747e4965b85e39abd10c82c7\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The arguments that were made by submitters were that it should occur at both stages, and in the end there was some concern from members of the committee that if that was the case, gaming would occur using those appeal procedures to prevent that pricing mechanism from locking in and taking effect, to the benefit of consumers in the short to medium term. I am confident, and I know that National Party members are confident, that this is the right outcome, and we endorse what the Minister said about having that two-step merit review process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI will not talk about airports, because I know that the Hon Paul Swain just loves that stuff and he will give a lengthy and detailed contribution, as we try to work out the relationship between airlines and airports. I will leave that to him and to Mr Lindsay Tisch, who has our particular interest in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBut could I just say in relation to the exemption for consumer-owned electricity lines businesses\u2014again, not as straightforward as it may first look\u2014that on the theoretical side, the model goes something like this. If the shareholder of the consumer-owned electricity lines business is the consumer, and the ultimate end benefactor of the pricing decisions is the consumer, the squeeze of pressure from the ownership and the consumer side of the equation will produce the right pricing equation. That effectively is the position whereby pricing will not enable rorting, because the consumers are the owners of the consumer-owned electricity lines businesses. I will watch this one really carefully because I think the model, in theory, makes sense. But as the Minister, I think, said in her contribution, there is a fall-back position if that does not occur, which is to directly approach the commission to ask it to have a view on more or less regulation\u2014well, it would actually be more in that case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBut having said that, the National Party starts from the position that to add another layer of regulation the case needs to be watertight, and we were of the view that in this instance that case was not made\u2014that in fact self-regulation, if one likes, would be able to determine the correct overall pricing outcome. But it is worth watching, and comparing it to the pricing outcomes that will occur as a result of the more regulated environment from the non - consumer-owned businesses. So that is a point to bear in mind as we step through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI thought the Minister started quite interestingly by making reference to the purpose clause. I think she is right when she says the balance has been struck. What I am interested in is this notion of the missing market, which is the consumer of tomorrow\u2014not the consumer of today, nor the infrastructure decisions that are made today\u2014and what the impact will be on the consumer of the future. That is a third dimension to this pricing and purpose equation, which I think is worth monitoring and worth thinking about if indeed we ever have cause to revisit the Commerce Act in that particular sense. That is something that members will be hearing a bit more of over the weeks to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBy and large, this was exceptionally complex legislation. I just want to conclude by thanking the Minister of Commerce for making her officials available to the National members, and for the large number of briefings that we received\u2014or that I received\u2014on this particular legislation. We had some spirited discussions about the nature of some of the issues that we have raised today, but I thank the Minister for giving me in particular that opportunity. I think that in the end the select committee has come up with workable legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is always interesting when one is sitting on these committees. I think it was my colleague the Hon Paul Swain, who is soon to retire\u2014it may have been Dave Hereora; no, it cannot have been, it must have been the Hon Paul Swain\u2014who said to me that the interesting thing about legislation like this is that all submitters agree with it in principle but there are always a couple of things around the edge that need a bit of tweaking. I think the committee did that particularly well. The committee was chaired by a member who was not from the Government side; these committees can work quite well when they are chaired by people who are not from the Government side\u2014well, we will see. I have to say that the help we were able to get from the officials was first class. The officials who stepped us through this legislation were experts in this area. I have to say that it is some of the finest work I have seen in the last 9 years. This bill is really tricky stuff and it cannot be overstated just how difficult it is. Those officials did a fantastic job, and I hope they will be in the Chamber during the Committee stage, so that when we ask the Minister some questions, she can lean back and get the answers as we move our way through. The National Party will be supporting the second reading of this bill, and we look forward to posing some interesting and timely questions to the Minister in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002201b46f8310a34309b6901b3ec896aa46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b46f8310a34309b6901b3ec896aa46\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I am extremely obliged to the kind words that the previous speaker has said about me as I am in my twilight zone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fd62fc975d84badbdd87b49729ec426\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Just about the statesman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1826f816c2b4966bcbb03d91543edd6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I know\u2014just about the statesman, indeed. I have my boarding pass ready to head off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228675ea7440ba43978bad22aef614704e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db9b076b8cc8499da79723ffafa80f25\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I would love to know that. The problem is that I am so far out of the loop, I cannot even find it. I am part of the unbundled local loop, actually. I am obliged to that member for his kind comments. I also, I suppose, acknowledge the fine work that the member did on the Commerce Amendment Bill, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e78201c4d6d347008ba9bf1bde3e4b88\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t. You\u2019ll belittle yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022023e3aa467ca42beb309a409bc8c9814\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. One good turn deserves another, as they say. I enjoyed the work on the Commerce Committee because, in fact, Simon Power had his head around the bill, and I thought the committee was interestingly chaired by Gerry Brownlee. Even though the member acknowledges that the bill has come through unanimously, it is fair to say it did not always have a smooth passage, which is often the case\u2014[Interruption] Well, I will not even comment on that, because that would ruin my speech and I am in a praising mood at the moment. The point is that Mr Brownlee had some very strong views about some things. But I thought that the debate and discussion, as the member said, improved the bill, and I enjoyed the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI think the point that the member made about the officials is right. Mike Lear is one of those officials, and, of course, he is an old veteran. He was around at the time when the former National Government structurally separated the electricity industry. So Mike knows things up hill and down dale when it comes to energy, and it was useful to have him there during this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe member Simon Power makes the point that these issues are enormously complex. One could read a speech in a couple of minutes and say a measure was absolutely necessary, etc., but the truth is that when the providers of goods and services do not necessarily face competition, one has to be really careful in what one does. I think the classic example of that is in the electricity sector. Lines companies, for example, are basically monopolies. If one tries to regulate them too tightly, there is no real incentive for them to reinvest. Their reinvestment plans get altered, and as a result of that the lights go out. That is the really big problem. On the other hand, if one does not regulate well enough, then the monopoly has the opportunity to price gouge, and the consumers are really rorted. So a huge balancing act has to go on in any of those kinds of industries. I think it is a very finely balanced call, and the question is always whether it is appropriate to regulate, and, if so, how it should be done. There was a lot of really good discussion and debate around the electricity sector\u2014a sector that I know the National members had some concerns about\u2014and of course around airports too, which I will talk about in just a minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOne of the important improvements made to the bill was around the purpose statement. I remember that when I became the Minister of Commerce, it was a very bald statement that talked about improving competition. There was no mention of consumers in the legislation, so in my time we added wording about the consumers of goods and services. What we have done now is to add on \u201Cin markets where there is little or no competition and little or no likelihood of a substantial increase in competition.\u201D So we have tried to clarify the purpose of the legislation, and I think that is an advantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESimon Power talked about the issue between input methodologies and final appeals. There was lots of discussion around that. It is fair to say that the submitters were very keen on both, and I think they are well pleased. In fact, the reports I have had from people who have looked at and submitted on the bill are that they are pretty pleased with the outcome. I do not need to say any more about that, except to say I think that that is useful. I also share the member\u2019s concerns about the potential capacity of the Commerce Commission here. That is something that the Government will need to keep in mind when this legislation proceeds, because in fact there is an enormous amount of work to be done here. I hope the commission will not be shy in coming forward if it finds that it does not have the resources to do the things that it will now be obliged to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI do like the idea of what is called the new fit-for-purpose regulatory powers. Under the old regime it was either price control, or not. It was an on-off switch, and that was very, very difficult. Having been in that position myself, I know that it is very, very difficult for the Minister to try to make decisions on such complicated matters. So we have a graded process, starting with the very light-handed regulation of requiring information disclosure, then moving to negotiation or arbitration, and, further on, to a default/customised path, which is the approach that has been taken for lines companies. So there are steps in there that can be used to avoid the problem of having to get into very heavy-handed regulation, where the Government tries to second-guess market signals. The problem with regulation is that decisions by regulators are always second-best to those that the market can provide. In the first instance we are trying to get contracts negotiated between two parties. If there is a power imbalance between the parties, then clearly there needs to be an independent agency, like the Commerce Commission, that steps in and tries to mimic what, in fact, a competitive industry might provide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI want to make just a couple of quick points around the electricity lines businesses. In that area we decided that the trusts, the small consumer-owned companies, would be faced with only information disclosure\u2014and I think that is good; it will lower their compliance costs\u2014primarily because the people who are the consumers directly elect the trustees. There is a direct relationship there, although there were some issues around whether that would mean the trustees would therefore not want to make tough decisions, because they would get voted out if they did. I think there is still an issue lurking away in there. We found some really interesting trust arrangements, by the way. We found out that the people who appointed the trustees to Northpower were the member for Northland and the member for Te Tai Tokerau. We thought that was a fine piece of patronage, and we considered looking at replicating it around the country\u2014it was one way of dealing with the problem. I certainly would like to see that particular piece of authority in my own area. But, to be fair, we thought that it probably was not the right way to go, and we made adjustments accordingly. Around the other electricity businesses there will be information disclosure, and the new default/customised regime will apply to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI have heard from the Electricity Networks Association, and it is pleased with what has happened here. It gives it some certainty, particularly around the transitional arrangements and the penalty regimes it was potentially facing, which we have now amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOne of the hot issues was around airports. The issue there is whether Auckland airport is a regional monopoly. Is it a poor cousin to the powerful airlines, which can fly elsewhere, or is it in a position to charge airlines for things that the airlines do not think they should rightfully pay for? In the end we have decided that the airports in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch should be required at least to provide an information disclosure type of regime, so that negotiation around the prices that should be paid for airport services can be effective. I personally think that is the right way to go, and I will be watching to see how that pans out in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I think the work on this bill was a really good piece of work from the committee, which I enjoyed sitting on. The issues in the bill are complex. Simon Power and I had some interesting arguments and debates, with Gerry Brownlee taking sometimes a more bombastic approach to the work in hand. But in the end we engaged in a good debate\u2014a good argument\u2014and came to the point we are now at with regard to this legislation. It was one of the times when select committees work well. As the member said, the committee was chaired by a member of the Opposition. This bill is a good piece of work. I think the industry will be happy and well satisfied with it. We listened to the submissions and have come back to the House with a better product, and that is due largely to the work of the officials and to some very active work from members of the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI recommend that the bill proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002267b67955295b413c847b98e5e78b4554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267b67955295b413c847b98e5e78b4554\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker, for the opportunity to share with colleagues this very important legislation. As Simon Power and Paul Swain indicated, we were very much guided by the officials, and I need to pass on my thanks to them for their expertise and guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that probably the most controversial debate we had surrounded airports and whether they should be included in the Commerce Amendment Bill. Some argued that, no, they were a late inclusion and should have been left out. The airlines, and Barnes Group, which represented the airlines, believed that they should be part of the regime. As Paul Swain has just shared, at the end we decided they should be part of the disclosure of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt is interesting also that this is only a second reading debate\u2014and we do not get a chance to talk in the Committee stage\u2014and that things like optimised deprival valuation methodology, the value of assets, the weighted average cost of capital, and such things, will have to come up at a later stage, when we will be able to ask the Minister more about those particular aspects. Also, the Commerce Committee has just concluded looking at an inquiry into the valuation methodology of State-owned enterprises. Just as we have talked throughout the debate on this bill about how assets should be valued, we have also had that other inclusion with State-owned enterprises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAs others have said, this is very complex legislation. It has wide-ranging implications, making it difficult for policy makers to predict the outcome. The question has been identified as being whether the Commerce Commission has the ability to implement the changes that we are looking at here. Does it have the resources? We will be watching very closely in terms of the regulations. We are after light-handed regulations. We believe in a self-regulatory regime, so we will be looking very closely to make sure that the regulations are able not only to be enforced but also to be fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand needs to focus on its commercial law and on fostering innovation and investment, and we believe that this bill goes towards that. The bill also includes a wider range of regulatory tools, with much lighter-handed options than previously existed, and that is the point that I have just made. However, the Government needs to be careful that it does not merely replace rarely used heavy-handed regulations, which is what we have had. We want to make sure that those regulations that are being brought in are not too light-handed but in fact measure up. Good commercial law depends very much on sound and reliable implementation both by the independent agencies and by Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis bill gives better incentives for infrastructure investment. Infrastructure businesses like electricity lines companies and airports will gain improved incentives to innovate and invest while consumers will be given protection from excessive prices and poor quality. Also, the purpose statement of the bill gives a clear guidance to the courts and the regulator, and the aim of this regulation is to promote investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to move specifically to the area of the airports, because I think that the three airports mentioned in the bill\u2014Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch\u2014are at the forefront of investment. With tourism, they are the gateways into New Zealand. We want to make sure, though, that there is fairness and equity in the way they operate. I for one have spent time with Auckland International Airport on the Business and Parliament Trust. I was privileged to have a 2-week secondment with it back in the year 2000 and again in 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9dfb8330d9f4317a43d42cd9e5415d0\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: 2 weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503d66e179924621b181501a62885cf7\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, 2 weeks\u20141 week, then a following week 3 years later. So I have seen the progress that that company has made, and it is certainly a leader in what it does. When it comes down to looking at the fairness and equity that was proposed by the airlines and their representative, Barnes Group, it is important that the disclosure previously mentioned will actually operate. So they are being regarded as monopolies, and the bill moves to make sure that monopolies do not exceed their responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn the case of airports, one would say that they are not operating as a single till, which was a phrase used constantly during the submission process. Each entity within the airports was operating and charging separately. So the point was that they should really be charging as a whole. The information that was supplied to the Commerce Committee indicated that some airport companies over-recovered in regards to airfield activities. They over-recovered in the charging under the Commerce Commission scenario based on historic cost of specialised assets, and also under the Commerce Commission scenario of using the optimised depreciated replacement cost for specialised assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn the bill the regulatory regime for setting airport charges moves into the Commerce Act. I will just quote here from one of the submissions, because it probably crystallises and articulates quite clearly what the bill is designed to do. It requires the Commerce Commission to develop mandatory input methodologies covering matters such as how to value assets and treat asset revaluations for information disclosure purposes. Secondly, it moves the current information disclosure requirements for the three airports that I mentioned before, from the Airport Authorities Act to the Commerce Act, and it strengthens the requirements and gives the Commerce Commission the responsibility for monitoring what those airports are disclosing. Thirdly, it provides for a transitional review by the Commerce Commission where the commission thinks from its monitoring that an inquiry should be held to see whether some regulatory controls should be introduced. So airports will be able to treat information disclosure separately from pricing and will be able to continue to set prices as they see fit. If they do this at the price reset at 2012 the Commerce Commission could look at what they have done, and, if convinced that they are monopoly pricing, could recommend to the Minister of Commerce that an inquiry be held. Inquiries take 2 to 3 years, so it could be 2015 or later before anything is done to address a situation of gross overcharging that could be occurring. It is unlikely therefore that any changes would take place before 2016 or 2017. So those were the points that came up from the airlines in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOn the other side of the equation of course were the airports, which have argued that the current regulatory regime has been in place for 20 years; it has worked well, so why change it? That was a strong argument that they put up. They also said that this would be a disincentive to major and new investment. If we go back to what the purposes of the regulations are, which are contained in new section 52A, set out in clause 4\u2014I will not go through it because time does not permit\u2014it clearly identifies what the nature of the legislation is designed to do. The airports also said, of course, that in some jurisdictions there were no regulations. They mentioned Scotland. They also mentioned that in the UK the Civil Aviation Authority was looking to take regulations off its Stansted and Manchester airports, although it might be difficult in the Stansted case. They also said that Sydney has a deregulated environment. So those were strong arguments that came up from the airports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI guess where we are coming from is that we will be watching very closely these developments once the bill is introduced and the Act is in place, because, as Simon Power said, we will be watching the role of regulations to make sure that they actually work. Although this legislation is replacing those heavy-handed regulations with much light-handed regulation, we want to make sure that they are fair and equitable. Those are the points that I will be talking about and asking the Minister about during the Committee stage, because we want to make sure that the Commerce Commission, which is now going to be given a very important task, is actually going to enact this legislation in the manner in which the select committee has worked very diligently to make sure is fair and equitable to all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00220af1466e5dec492280362bee62f66331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220af1466e5dec492280362bee62f66331\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I intend to take only a short call, because New Zealand First was not on the Commerce Committee and reading this bill is awfully technical. I listened to Simon Power, and I can imagine that anybody on the select committee would need extensive briefings to be up to speed with the legislation. I see that both National and Labour are supporting this bill, and that pleases New Zealand First, no end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe area about which I am particularly concerned, and particularly delighted, is that of airports, because the first bill I handled when I came to this House was the Airport Authorities Amendment Bill. I was brand new to politics\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca49e22c1d34ed4a833264894f31356\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I remember that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e235138b0942eaaba10d17dda7ba0d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was before your time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f32321c058846f88be9f6b904f303a6\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317b6114d6804547be7030c20f93b097\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member remembers No. 2; this was No. 1 in 1996 or 1997. When I read that bill, I thought \u201CThis is not good enough.\u201D New Zealand First was in coalition with the National Party. It wanted to have no regulation whatsoever, but there I was, brand new, saying \u201CThis is not good enough.\u201D I do not think it is being unkind to say that the bill was of low priority. Even my own colleagues thought \u201CWill you please get on with it, and settle it.\u201D, but there I was saying \u201CIt is not good enough.\u201D I was hauled up to Jenny Shipley, who was Minister of Transport at the time, and she said how important it was to have a deregulated environment. But I sensed the danger of monopolies, having worked for quite some years in seaports. Then I got hauled up to Bill Birch. He had an army of young up-and-coming Treasury officials with him, and they gave me the lecture on how one does this with no deregulation whatever. In the end Winston Peters and I sat down one night and worked out the best compromise we could sell to our coalition partner, a compromise that was based on consultation. But we know now that it has not worked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESo we are delighted\u2014and I am particularly delighted because of that personal experience\u2014that both National and Labour have come together and said that airports need some form of control. The control is modest\u2014it comes under an information disclosure regime and monitoring\u2014but it is a significant step forward. The control probably does not go as far as the airlines would like it to go, but that is not a bad thing, and it goes probably a little bit further than the airports want to go, which is a good thing. So I think the select committee has reached a reasonable compromise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI understand that an international aviation consultancy, Jacobs Consultancy, has measured the performance of 50 international airports around the world. Auckland Airport came out on top for aeronautical revenue as a percentage of total costs, it came out on top for operating profit as a percentage of revenue, and it came out on top for operating profit per passenger. That should tell us all that something has to be done. Those are the areas where one does not really want to be top of the pops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will be supporting this bill, probably all the way through. We, and I on a personal basis, are absolutely delighted that we are finally doing something about airports. I congratulate the National Party on going down the road to Damascus and having an enlightening experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbd0d1b29537409ca5d6327a7c587ad9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbd0d1b29537409ca5d6327a7c587ad9\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The purpose of this bill is to amend the Commerce Act 1986 in order to reform its regulatory control provisions to do with the important services of infrastructure providers of gas and electricity and the airports. As others have stated, it is a complex, technical piece of legislation, not easily understood, particularly if one has not been a member of the Commerce Committee. I have always had some issues with the concept of consumer or client, as if it is a meaningful term. If we were to turn to the Oxford Dictionary to find out what a consumer is in real terms, it describes services, products, expected to have a long, useful life; goods, or, as in consumerism, the preoccupation of society with the acquisition of goods. Well, in the M\u0101ori Party we are a little bit different and we talk mostly about people\u2014a radical concept, I know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESo we have turned to the amendments made by the Commerce Committee to see how the people have reacted towards proposals to introduce even lighter, non-price forms of regulation than were previously in force. The purpose statement in new Part 4$ is to be amended to safeguard consumers from excessive prices. There is nothing we would disagree with there. In explanation, the commentary on the bill describes the inherent tension in the bill, with some submitters more concerned about incentivising investment than about consumer protection. The so-called solution is seemingly more to focus on profit and investment rather than, as I said before, to promote consumer protection. So the level of protection is not to ensure affordable prices but to limit their ability to extract excessive profits, yet, curiously, there is no definition of what is described, or defined, as excessive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThat one specific example is indicative of the emphasis in this bill, which appears to be about competitive markets, more than it is about consumer protections. I am reminded of the warning from American economist Milton Friedman who said: \u201CMany people want the Government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the Government.\u201D One of the disappointing features of the consultation process that was undertaken for this bill was that although a total of 39 submissions were received, not one was from the end consumers whom this bill is supposed to protect. All of the submissions were from service suppliers, and one from the Hon Justice Randerson of the High Court, who was consulted for specific advice on appeal clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESo really, how can one protect the consumer from the Government if the people are not being heard in the first place? The M\u0101ori Party believes that there needed to be some mechanism, other than submissions to the select committee, to get feedback from consumers, given their key role. Maybe focus groups of consumers should be considered as an important mechanism for gaining the thoughts of that group. A bill that ostensibly enables price and quality control for the purpose of improving outcomes for consumers should logically have sought the feedback of those people in the first instance. The bill would look quite different if it had consumers at the centre and if they had been guaranteed some kind of voice in the process. Failure to involve the people who are supposedly to benefit from the outcomes of competitive markets is a huge risk, which works to the benefit only of the corporations\u2014the moneymakers\u2014rather than the unsuspecting public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAnother key issue, other than the lack of robust consultation mechanisms, is the failure of this bill, and, indeed successive Governments, to adequately regulate monopolies, following the privatisation process. Dr Geoff Bertram, an economics lecturer up at Victoria University, stated that privatisation has been notoriously unsuccessful in New Zealand. In his contention, there are many horror stories of big transnational organisations trying to buy up our infrastructure, and, similarly, monopolies that do not care about service delivery, quality, or affordability, but just about their profit. His conclusion, therefore, is that natural monopolies\u2014public or private\u2014need to be kept on a leash; and there is no escaping the need for proper regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen in successive Labour and National Governments is that they have failed to adequately regulate monopolies, following privatisation. That has resulted, as we all know, in price increases, reduced service quality, and run-down infrastructure. I recommend to members that they read Jane Kelsey\u2019s critique of the Commerce Act entitled Reclaiming the Future: New Zealand and the Global Economy. In that analysis Jane described the Act as one of the Labour Government\u2019s earliest moves towards light-handed regulation. She concluded that because New Zealand has such a permissive merger and acquisition regime, it needed a robust mechanism to prohibit anti-competitive behaviour, and her report concluded that this was lacking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESo we in the M\u0101ori Party came to this bill thinking the policy failure would be acknowledged, but it was not to be. With the introduction of even lighter non-price forms of regulation it will be less likely that price and quality will be regulated, as there will be other options for the commission to steer towards. We believe that if we do not have price regulation, well then, we really do not have any regulation. We do not consider self-regulation will work. Our analysis of the amendments by the select committee further underlines the effect of even lighter non-price forms of regulation, in fact. So we will be opposing this bill, and not on behalf of consumers and clients but on behalf of the people. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002292411fe01a4043879ac9f0d5775b73f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292411fe01a4043879ac9f0d5775b73f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Commerce Amendment Bill this evening, as we move through urgency towards 12 a.m. The bill has a very strong focus on regulatory certainty and accountability, which is very important to modern world-leading economies. Without regulatory certainty and regulatory accountability it is very difficult for companies involved in infrastructure, like electricity line or gas line companies, to have certainty in regard to investment. I will give the example of Vector Energy to provide members with some idea as to why world-leading regulation in this area is important. It has to do with Vector Energy looking overseas to refinance its balance sheet last year. A number of its directors went to the UK, as I understand, and looked to secure funding for gearing or leveraging the company\u2019s balance sheet. The financiers whom they spoke to told them they would be required to pay a premium in terms of funding costs because it was felt that the regulation in New Zealand around those types of infrastructure was cumbersome and unwieldy. As a result they were required to pay a premium on the cost of funding for their balance sheet. Where do we think the premium for the cost of that funding ultimately ends up? Well, it ends up in the cost of the distribution of power, the cost of the distribution of gas, the cost of all sorts of things within those infrastructural companies. At the end of the day, it ends up with the consumer facing increased prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that modern world-leading regulation in this area is critical. It will ultimately lead to better opportunities for our companies to fund themselves, lower premiums for their interest rates, and, I think, ultimately better prices for consumers. This is legislation that the National Party supports, and I acknowledge the work of our team\u2014particularly Simon Power and Gerry Brownlee\u2014and I certainly know that members of the Opposition worked diligently on what is complex legislation to bring it to this point in the second reading, and to have all parties, with the exception of the M\u0101ori Party, agreeing at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EFor those who are listening to this debate, the objective of the legislation was to provide a more effective, more credible regime to address the potential exercise of market power, where competition is not possible. We are talking about the likes of gas lines and electricity lines, where to bring two or three players into the market is simply unrealistic and impossible. So we get these monopolistic organisations by the very fact that it is impossible to have competition there. The problem with monopolies of this nature is that we need to make them as efficient as possible, and the danger is that without competition they become unwieldy and bloated, and they increase the costs to consumers quite unnecessarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe second objective of the legislation was to improve the certainty, timeliness, and predictability for regulated firms. I know that within my own electorate of Napier our lines company Unison has had significant problems with regulation. It has faced major changes in its prices or in the negotiation of its prices, with uncertainty in the regulation and how it would value its capital assets. It has just been an ongoing nightmare for them. There is no doubt that the lack of certainty and the lack of clarity in the regulations have meant there have been higher prices for consumers than would otherwise be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe third objective of the legislation is to provide for incentives for regulated firms to invest in infrastructure, and that is what we need to do. If we want a modern economy, and if we are serious about growing the wealth of this nation and about lifting wages, then there is no doubt that our basic infrastructure has to be world-leading. If the companies that are involved in this space are not investing in that infrastructure, then we will not go forward. We will not have the types of infrastructural assets that New Zealanders believe are necessary for us to drive a modern economy. So providing those incentives is critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe last objective of the bill is to minimise the regulatory costs involved in addressing changes and increases in prices and addressing the other regulations. There is no doubt that the compliance costs around this type of regulatory regime go into the millions of dollars for these companies, as they address changing their prices with the Commerce Commission and the various other organisations that affect prices. Those are some of the key objectives in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will not take a long call as I was not involved in the select committee, and it is indeed complex legislation, when we come down to the detail. I just want to summarise effectively what I have said. Regulatory certainty and accountability is critical for these types of infrastructural assets within the country. It is great to see that this legislation is taking that step forward. It is providing certainty and clarity for these types of companies, and I think that that is indeed a step forward and that is why the National Party will be supporting this bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002250d7409f935140288bae45dff9ccbc8f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Commerce Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f79ecd161fc4f4596207a4e72ae18e9\u0022\u003EDisability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3eaaa1ea4194162b94671aed8413e87\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002229674465ddd6496489238dd36400b1e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229674465ddd6496489238dd36400b1e9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill be now read a second time. This bill forms part of the steps that will enable New Zealand to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The Justice and Electoral Committee has examined the convention and recommends ratification of it. I am pleased that the committee also supports the bill being passed without amendment. I acknowledge all the other parties that have participated in this process, and also the officials, who have worked hard over many months on the preparation of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill does not in itself provide for ratification, but instead removes some obstacles in existing legislation. Historically, New Zealand has set a very high standard for ratification of international human rights treaties. We ratify when the Government is satisfied that our laws, policies, and practices are not inconsistent with the treaty at issue. Passing the bill will reinforce the Government\u2019s confidence that New Zealand meets this high standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to achieve two outcomes. Firstly, it removes outdated and discriminatory provisions in some legislation that automatically disqualify a person from certain public or fiduciary offices on the grounds of being mentally disordered within the meaning of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992, or being subject to a compulsory treatment order under that Act. Instead, the bill proposes amendments that will ensure that a person\u2019s capacity to perform a role or a function is able to be individually assessed. Secondly, the bill clarifies the provision of reasonable accommodation under the Human Rights Act in certain areas where it is uncertain. This is not a new obligation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has made strong progress in removing barriers experienced by disabled people living their lives. However, much more work remains to be done before we can say we are a fully inclusive society. The convention is a useful tool to help us in this work and to ensure that all New Zealanders enjoy their rights of citizenship and lead highly valued and productive lives. Passing the bill will enable us to proceed quickly with ratification of the convention. I look forward to our building on our strong reputation as a human rights champion by putting our commitment into action. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00226ed983e36d5940a0badb85a12562b442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ed983e36d5940a0badb85a12562b442\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the second reading of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill. I very much also appreciated the fact that there was unanimity within the Justice and Electoral Committee on the need to put this bill through. In fact, all submissions were in support of the bill, and in some cases in passionate support of it. I think I see that Wendy Wicks and some people from DPA (New Zealand) are in the gallery, and indeed they articulated a most passionate and convincing submission. The DPA submission urged all different political parties to \u201Cembody the spirit of the UN by cooperating to ensure that the rights of disabled New Zealanders remain paramount. This will be demonstrable by ratification as quickly as possible.\u201D So indeed it is good that the National Party, along with all the other parties in Parliament, is able to support this bill to go through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENational did have some reservations, however, with the fact that there appeared to be no time for other interested parties to be able to submit on this bill, and I will come to that aspect later. It seems to me that if we are going to realistically implement the sorts of things we want to, in the way of the New Zealand Disability Strategy, then it is really important that organisations like unions, businesses around the country, and the general public, do have the time and opportunity to participate in this process. Unfortunately there was a rush of circumstances, and I do not know why that was absolutely necessary because the initial convention was signed, I think, back in March 2007. But it would have been good if those organisations had had the opportunity to make submissions, and to talk to them, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI was particularly struck by the submission from the Human Rights Commission, which clearly had put a lot of thought into studying the convention. The Human Rights Commission was set up by the National Government in the 1990s. It says that the declaration is a set of principles designed to \u201Cpromote and encourage respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion;\u201D. Although the international instruments apply to every person, there is no explicit recognition of people with disabilities, except in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is so important to have this specific bill go through the House, so that the convention can be ratified and the agreement signed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe commission also makes the note that ratification of an international treaty is a significant undertaking, and that when a State ratifies a treaty it accepts that it will be bound by its terms and accepts an obligation to deliver the rights in the treaty to its citizens. I think that this provision should not be underestimated in its importance. That was one of the reasons I was concerned there was not a greater opportunity for other people as well as for directly interested parties\u2014such as the DPA, the IHC, and the Human Rights Commission\u2014to participate in the submission process. This convention will undoubtedly raise expectations; it is very important that we have a realistic response in New Zealand, and that those expectations do not go unfulfilled. There has been a feeling that the New Zealand Disability Strategy, in many respects, has not been implemented at the pace or in the way that was originally envisaged, and that feeling certainly came out in the submissions to the select committee inquiry on disability services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Human Rights Commission went on to say that the commission shared the concerns about the adequacy of domestic legislation relating to the obligation to accommodate disabled people. It made the very important point that as the definition of discrimination on the basis of disability \u201Cincludes all forms of discrimination, including denial of reasonable accommodation;\u201D, the concept of reasonable accommodation is pivotal to the convention. This sort of thing actually happens quite often in everyday life. One of the examples we were given was that an airline had charged more for someone who needed some extra oxygen. One would have expected that any reasonable airline would accommodate a disabled person without having to go to that extra length of making them feel even more uncomfortable by charging them for the oxygen they needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe law around the concept of accommodation, as I understand it, has not been well developed in New Zealand, whereas in the United Kingdom quite a lot of work has been done on it. The commission cited the case of Baroness Hale of Richmond, in Mayor and Burgesses of the London Borough of Lewisham v Malcolm, where it was stated as follows: \u201CBut if the object of the disability discrimination legislation is to \u2018level the playing field\u2019, to enable disabled people to do things that they otherwise would not be able to do, then simply ignoring their disability and asking that they be treated in exactly the same way as non-disabled people will not do. A reasonable adjustment has to be made for the special difficulties which their disabilities present.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the other areas that the Human Rights Commission was concerned about was the sustainable transport discussion paper that was brought out several years ago. The commission was very concerned that, in actuality, little progress had been made on improving the accessibility of public and land transport systems. I remember very clearly when a wheelchair-bound constituent came to me. He had gone down early one morning to the Pukekohe railway station but was left on the platform because the guard was not prepared to help him into the train. This is the sort of thing that apparently happens in practice in everyday New Zealand, and certainly we have to make every effort we can to redress it. Hopefully, it is the sort of discipline that the convention will impose upon us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI do not think that the point I made earlier on about the cost to New Zealand of compliance with the Treaty should go unmentioned. It was of concern to me to see that the report from the Government considered that minimal financial costs would be incurred by New Zealand as a result of implementing the convention. I believe that that is unrealistic, which is one of the reasons that I felt it was important that we had realistic economic evaluations of the implications of the convention. In fact, the report went on to say that \u201Cthe primary cost for departments will be in contributing to new reporting and accountability requirements every 4 years. It is considered that existing Government mechanisms will facilitate the new reporting requirement, and that it will operate similarly to the existing mechanisms for the other core United Nations human rights treaties. This process can be adapted for the purpose of reporting to the convention, thus any additional costs are expected to be able to be met through existing baselines.\u201D Well, I think that this is one of the areas where the Government has worn slightly rose-tinted glasses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENevertheless, the signing of this convention will hopefully be a start on the discipline to ensure that we address much better accommodation in New Zealand\u2014or much more reasonable accommodation\u2014of disabled people than we have in the past. The National Party is very glad to support this bill in its second reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u002204fe64a93cae4533a606d136edadd9d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204fe64a93cae4533a606d136edadd9d9\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I am very proud as the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee to speak in support of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill. I speak in support of the bill not because we did a great amount of work on it but because we made a conscious decision\u2014well, the majority of us did\u2014that this bill needed to turn around in the select committee very, very quickly. We did that because we knew that New Zealand had taken a real leadership role in terms of rights for disabled people, and it was really important in terms of the very tight time frame that this bill went through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI was really proud that when the bill came to the committee a decision was made by a majority of the committee that we would not go through the usual submission process but that we would progress the bill as quickly as possible. We did that because we were confident that all that work had gone in beforehand. Sadly, that position was not supported by the National Party, but fortunately Labour and the Greens had enough members on the committee to make that happen. I am really proud that that happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI also want to say, in respect of the submissions process, that we asked people to come and give submissions within something like a week. People did that, and they gave the most compelling, fantastic submissions so that we ended up with unanimous support for the bill to go forward. Why? So that when the time was right, which was very, very close\u2014we are talking about next month, are we not, Minister, in terms of the United Nations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ad1b1b50ad4426a033e73f9fb622c2\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f9e2d3c048496e9d3ca1a6cd08797c\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: So when the time was right New Zealand would be there playing its full part, it would be taking a leadership role, and it would be able to participate fully, so that ratification could take place and the bill would be able to go through. One could say we took a punt, but we did not. We knew that we had the support in the sector of every person who had put so many years into this work, and we knew that that was the right thing to do. So the turn-round was very quick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI note from the select committee report\u2014and I heard Dr Hutchison talk about it just now\u2014that there were views that a realistic appraisal of the financial implications of this bill was not considered. I say that is absolute nonsense. The Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill sits alongside and builds on what this Government holds dear, and that is the right for disabled people in this country to participate fully. It was never about financial implications. The good, sound advice we were given was that there would not be detrimental financial implications. It was good, sound advice. It was not just a whim or an emotional thing; it was good advice for doing the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI note from the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s report, and this is the reason I talk about the National Party\u2019s minority view\u2014which is a strange thing, perhaps, for a Government member to do\u2014that it acknowledges those people who did the work. When the National Party members talked about the financial implications they had concerns about, their final words in their minority report were: \u201CDespite these shortcomings, National is moved by the sincerity and strong calls by the disability sector that supporting this bill will help their lives and others elsewhere around the globe.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI say in this House that I am really pleased and proud that we had a truncated process and that the bill went through, but I think the full tribute should be paid to the members of the sector for their courage and for their sheer hard work, which moved us to a position where we had a unanimous decision from the select committee. I am very proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00220e92601e19874559a7a2239082ce07cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e92601e19874559a7a2239082ce07cc\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will acknowledge particularly, through you, Mr Deputy Speaker, the people who are gathered here in the gallery this evening. I say to my friends up there, who have been bravely sitting throughout the evening, that they are now right up with the play with biofuel technology, having listened to the debates. They have heard all about the recent amendments to the Commerce Act, and they did not even look bored. They have been waiting for their time and, through you Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish to give them a verbal salute: t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. This is their time, for the purpose of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill is to amend legislative provisions that are inconsistent with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and to amend the Human Rights Act 1993 to clarify the scope of its provisions and thereby enable a person with a disability to be accommodated in certain areas of activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis is an area of social as well as physical consequence. According to UN figures, 10 percent of the world\u2019s population have to live with a disability. I have to say the closest I have ever had to a physical disability is when I broke my Achilles tendon, and it gave me a considerable shock, because that was the first time I had had any sort of incapacity. That gave me a sharp personal understanding of what for others is a daily situation. Nineteen percent of less-educated people suffer disability, compared with 11 percent amongst those with access to good education. This is a huge area of human stereotyping, conveying all sorts of myths such as the assumption that people with a disability are, in some way, not the same as other people when it comes to work and daily life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe sincerity of the submissions received by the Justice and Electoral Committee was very, very moving. It was very, very sincere. The most sincere thing, the most poignant part of all, was that the submitters each asked that, as members of the committee, we listen to them. That was all they asked we should do, that we let them be listened to. It was a privilege and a pleasure to do so, because New Zealand needs to be up front and to front up to being a land of equal opportunity\u2014more than just a part of a Labour Government\u2019s rhetoric. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe all have a right to self-determination, to enjoy full and equal entitlement of all human rights and fundamental individual freedoms, intellectual and physical. I remember getting an excellent lesson in how to be of assistance to people who suffered a disability. It was from a guy called George Phiskie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI was very young at the time. It was in the 1970s and he was up in Waip\u016B. He had been totally blind since he was 11 and he ran his own dairy farm. As a fully sighted person I rushed to help. He said: \u201CThe best help you can give me is to let me put my hand on your shoulder as we walk along. You can be my eyes.\u201D He explained to me\u2014and he trained a lot of people\u2014about how to assist blind people. Instead of trying to take their arm and help them, let them take your arm and decide for themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThere are a number of ways in which we can assist each other in life. There are very many ways in which some people try to erode the dignity and the rights of individuals, even in this House, even in this Chamber, and even in the presentation of this bill. There are those who are so insecure in themselves that they seek every opportunity to denigrate the reputation and work of others. I take no pleasure in that particular aspect of this House. [Interruption] I say to the member opposite that, no, I am not joking at all. It is sad, but we live with it. Imagine what it is like then to have a disability and to encounter someone with a negative mental attitude towards others. We still have a way to go in our lives in educating the public towards losing their stereotypes. We cannot do that in a hurry but what we can do in this House is make sure that the legislation reflects a level playing field and a fair attitude towards others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis UN convention was signed on 30 March 2007. Minister Ruth Dyson spoke fulsomely about bringing this \u201Cinto force as quickly as possible\u201D, yet legislation was not introduced into Parliament until 8 July. I am sorry for that. I am sorry for that delay. Why do we now have to have a rushed series of submissions? It has been decorated and painted up as trying to do things quickly, with a short period between the opening and closure of the opportunity to make submissions. I do not know why that was. The bill is now being hurtled through in urgency. It was urgent way back in 2007. Actually this is not a good look, no matter how it is painted by members opposite, but it is in keeping with what those of us on this side of the House have become used to over the past 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ENational supports the excellent submissions on this bill from the disability sector. We agree there are advantages to having the covenant ratified in an expeditious manner. The provision of reasonable accommodation is agreed with, but it needs to be more than just a phrase of convenience, and to make it work it has to have a wide level of shared understanding between those who are and who are not disabled. To be meaningful, the financial implications of this bill have yet to be made\u2014again, in spite of the rhetoric and the objections from Government members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd1bc02f0e9e41a884ac4f6197ce4f02\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s always about money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff84635e85ad4db1aa59e0d17bb61c1f\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I have just been told that it is all about money. To be disabled on one\u2019s own is bad enough; to be disabled and financially unsupported is not much better; and to try to be supported by legislation that is not underpinned with financial consequences does not quite have the same meaning. To be meaningful, the financial implications of the bill have yet to be made clear. This should be a responsibility of the Government, and without it an important mechanism is missing. We need to be careful that we are not just being heavy on rhetoric and light on action. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc5eb806103d4929b426473e01b2e75d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc5eb806103d4929b426473e01b2e75d\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First, I am absolutely delighted to support the second reading of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill. It is a very positive bill. I must say that we in New Zealand First are very sorry that we did not have a member on the Justice and Electoral Committee. Obviously, we would have enjoyed hearing the submissions from the submitters. New Zealand First has to say that the efforts of the Minister for Disability Issues in this very important area, and all of the work she has done to ensure that we are leaders on the world stage, have to be acknowledged. Importantly, the Minister has shown that she has consulted extensively with the disability sector in so much of her work in this particular area. We applaud her efforts. The winning of the prestigious Roosevelt award truly is recognition of the steps New Zealand has made. They are very important steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Disability Strategy has been in place since 2001. We have to acknowledge the sector for all of the work it has done to ensure that the voices of people in the sector are heard in the decision-making process. That is a very big step forward, and is very, very necessary, so I say thanks. We as politicians have been to many forums over the past few weeks to discuss our party policies in this particular area, and we congratulate the sector on the work it has done to raise the awareness of all of us here in this House, in order to ensure that its priorities are listened to and its needs are on the agenda of every political party in this House. I see many people from the sector up in the gallery, and I thank them very much for that. It is very rare for a bill to receive unanimous support in this House. In addition, the report from the select committee states that the bill was strongly supported by all of the submitters, as well, and that is very, very positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe report from the select committee states that the financial cost of implementing the convention that we have heard so much about tonight will be minimal, and that any necessary increases in funding will be met by increases in the baseline funding of agencies already working to implement the New Zealand Disability Strategy. That is how it should be\u2014a solid platform on which to build. In New Zealand First we are certain that, with the level of support from all parties and the disability sector, this bill is as right as it can be. Like the select committee, we regard the UN convention as a very important step forward. The convention will complement the outcomes-oriented objectives of the New Zealand Disability Strategy by providing some much-needed practical advice on removing the barriers that prevent disabled people from enjoying rights on an equal basis with others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI was interested to read in the report that for New Zealand to participate in the first conference of party States, the convention must be ratified by 3 October 2008\u2014hence the need for urgency on this particular bill. We applaud the fact that this date will be met. I was also interested to read\u2014and this is for the edification of the previous speaker\u2014that the Justice and Electoral Committee urged the House to pass the bill as soon as possible, thereby enabling ratification of the convention. So it was a move that had to be carried out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First recognises the right of every New Zealander to equality of opportunity. The view of the disability sector that this bill ensures that this equality is recognised in law means that the support of New Zealand First for it is absolutely essential. Many of the previous provisions in the law were outdated, and I must say that I was totally amazed at the discrimination in some of our laws. I read out some of those in my first reading speech. Those laws needed to be changed urgently, and at last they will be changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, New Zealand First supports this bill. We are pleased to see it proceeding rapidly through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u002261893017277a45019780f7dc016dfdd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261893017277a45019780f7dc016dfdd4\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is also very proud to be supporting the bill tonight in its second reading, and through the rest of its stages. We are very pleased to have supported the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s expediting the bill going through that process. It is very unusual for the Greens to do such a thing. There is no doubt that the community as a whole supported this legislation, so there was simply no need to delay it any further. I think the Minister for Disability Issues has done a very good job in bringing this bill to the House in good time. Other members of the select committee and other members of political parties that support disabilities issues, particularly the MMP parties of New Zealand First, United Future, and the M\u0101ori Party, have done a great job in supporting the sector and this bill. I do not see any reason to make a meal out of it at this late hour. I am very pleased that people from the disability sector are in the gallery tonight to oversee our behaviour and hear our views on this bill, but I know there are still more stages of the bill to proceed. I am very pleased that the bill is at this stage in the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022595bfe51514a459dad2e5e6b2fe5ff0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022595bfe51514a459dad2e5e6b2fe5ff0e\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. First of all, I acknowledge the members of the Disabled Persons Assembly who are in the gallery\u2014kia ora. I also acknowledge the Minister, Ruth Dyson, for bringing the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill before the House tonight. The M\u0101ori Party has been happy to support this bill throughout its stages in the House. It amends a number of Acts in order to make them consistent with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and as such it receives our full support. As a party we are utterly committed to addressing discrimination and social inclusion, and barriers to employment, education, and access to services; the various amendments in the legislation will enable that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EOur belief is to ensure that disabled persons and their wh\u0101nau are able to access support in order to have a life of their own and to achieve that vital sense of purpose that we all need. Many M\u0101ori are missing out on entitlements to health and disability support. We in the M\u0101ori Party are calling for a review of income support, to ensure full participation in family and community life. The M\u0101ori Party believes that information and communication that is tailored to the needs of M\u0101ori could be highly useful. We would also advocate for the development of a media campaign to address social stigmas around disabilities and impairment. We are committed towards addressing barriers in education, employment, and access to services, to ensure that people with disabilities have the same employment rights as any other people. The Disabled Persons Assembly urged the House to ensure that no barriers were erected to delay prompt gratification of the United Nations convention, and the convention allows disabled people to \u201Cconfidently claim our human rights that other New Zealanders have \u2026\u201D\u2014again, we wholeheartedly support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI am pleased to rise in this debate also to bring a very important challenge to the fore. A fortnight ago I was stopped by a woman in a shopping mall in Hamilton. That led us to discover a whole new pathway of thought regarding the relationships of health and disability providers, including M\u0101ori with our hau\u0101\u2014our disabled persons. That woman happened to be the indigenous persons\u2019 representative on the United Nations International Disability Caucus steering committee, a solicitor and human rights consultant, Dr H\u016Bhana Hickey. I could not help but be struck by the anomaly that although in the passage of this legislation we are supporting the United Nations Convention, this woman, the indigenous people\u2019s representative on a United Nations international disability association, remains unacknowledged and unfunded by New Zealand. H\u016Bhana has expanded our knowledge of indigenous disability identity issues through the work she has done, based on models of disabilities on indigenous well-being. She challenges us in this legislation to recognise how well this convention will take into account the issues of wh\u0101nau, whakawhanaungatanga\u2014family relationships\u2014interdependence within the community, and collectivity identities. These concepts, she argues, are central to indigenous thinking, yet are largely ignored by law and policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ECollective rights and individual human rights are inter-relational and interchangeable with one another. Within the M\u0101ori Party we share that concern. We believe there is a need to review the current organisations within the health and disability sector to assess their effectiveness in relation to M\u0101ori clients. It is about valuing the concept of self-determination, of a collective wanting to determine their own rights as groups, not just as individuals. As an example of such thinking, we believe there needs to be integration of disabilities funding as opposed to the current silo approach, and an integration of solutions to address issues faced by wh\u0101nau with disabilities. The question we must then address is whether there is appropriate acknowledgment and recognition in this United Nations convention of the role and status of indigenous peoples. I think it is extremely relevant to bring to the debate the concept that as recently as August 2006 the United Nations International Disability Caucus working group was still debating the rights of women and girls not to be sterilised on the grounds of disabilities. If the issues of identity and whakapapa\u2014or genealogy\u2014are still so current in the international debate, that reminds us all to be wary of areas we would not want to compromise on in our own domestic scene. New Zealand\u2019s compliance with the United Nations convention will ensure that any discrimination against a person\u2019s disability is prohibited. What we in the M\u0101ori Party want to be assured of is whether the unique and specific issues of indigenous peoples with disabilities are also fully considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn our own land the Disability Strategy has many strengths and positives that might give us a steer as to the international context. However, M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau with disabilities want to be able to create their own solutions and to be self-determining. But providers have told us that M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau with disabilities did not have enough input to produce a strategy specific to the needs of M\u0101ori. In their view the result is a generalist strategy whose implementation fails to address M\u0101ori-specific issues, particularly kaupapa M\u0101ori services and access to Te Ao M\u0101ori, including marae. Further, providers have said that specific funding for M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau with disabilities is quite inadequate. I heard that the Te Roopu Waiora Trust came to the Justice and Electoral Committee with precise detail as to how the issues of discrimination and marginalisation, already identified around indigenous peoples, are even more marked in the context of disability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe believe that it is essential that wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori determine solutions to address the following issues: one, indigenous deprivation, including a lack of access to M\u0101ori language and knowledge, particularly as residents of institutions such as deaf schools, blind institutions, and residential facilities for people with intellectual disability; two, barriers to Government services, including the fact that inadequate policies and rigid service menus have not included M\u0101ori-specific needs or input in community services, both cultural and non-cultural; three, lack of access to service and resource knowledge, including health and disability supports; four, processes that assume comprehension, sight, hearing, and literacy at levels beyond many M\u0101ori disability communities; five, physical access restrictions to public facilities, both internally and externally; six, attitudinal discrimination and institutional racism; and, seven, under-utilisation by M\u0101ori of advocacy and grievance processes. Fortunately, we come armed with some solutions as well. We believe the solutions lie in working with wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, and also with the M\u0101ori-specific expertise available across this community, including groups such as Tamaki Ng\u0101ti Kapo, the M\u0101ori community of vision impaired/blind members and wh\u0101nau; Mana Tangata Turi, the M\u0101ori deaf community; the National Steering Group of M\u0101ori Disability Services; the Aotearoa Wh\u0101nau Carers Network; and the Taikura Trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn the conclusion to her doctoral thesis, H\u016Bhana Hickey recommended that one of the aspects of providing full autonomy for those with disabilities was to ensure that M\u0101ori with disabilities are at the centre of the decisions around their resourcing. Understanding that disability representation is not only about impairment but also about the representation of all the diverse identities within the disabilities world is key to participation by those groups who have been traditionally under-represented. We must be able to place the choices and direction of life back into the hands of wh\u0101nau with disabilities. We must ensure that service delivery is wh\u0101nau-friendly, minimising the number of agencies traipsing through their lives. We seek to build the strength of wh\u0101nau capability and reduce the reliance on formal and specialist support structures. We want to extend the knowledge and strategies wh\u0101nau can access, to give them greater resilience in times of stress. Finally, we look to encourage relationships of trust between both services and wh\u0101nau, and between services and the State. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e316ab8c4ecc4b7cbb22b1f6f0d23a4c\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd54b59a39924c7da0c3c7b99108de43\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014Attendance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00220ede288bf3e4414796e3d4e399b0caa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ede288bf3e4414796e3d4e399b0caa8\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker I will deal with a matter that was raised before the dinner break by way of a point of order. The Hon Tau Henare raised a point of order immediately before the Committee stage of the Biofuel Bill. I indicated that I would consider the matter, and I have done so. The House has no cognisance of anything taking place before a select committee unless it is reported to the House. It is not in order for a member to raise a point of order in the House on a matter taking place in a select committee. If a committee requires a Speaker\u2019s ruling, it should resolve to obtain the ruling, and the chairperson should do so privately. I refer the member to Speakers\u2019 rulings 82/4-5 and 83/1-4. The member should raise his concern with the chairperson of the select committee. The Speaker has no authority to become involved. However, I am advised that the meeting the member referred to is at 1 p.m. tomorrow. Nothing prevents a chairperson from calling a meeting at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002275868b68e8344a8ebd371d9903c5a8f9\u0022\u003EDisability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c8d8bb70f174a5594b7c9f628ce6e65\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001113\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00220a0c73d2c3eb4c2ea91b1f32734ababd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a0c73d2c3eb4c2ea91b1f32734ababd\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of United Future to speak in support of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill. United Future does not enjoy representation on the select committee that heard the submissions, but I have no doubt that they were robust and passionate. What I celebrate in this bill is the fact that people will finally have an opportunity to participate in governance options based on their individual merit and will no longer be blocked from participation because they fit into a particular category of person. I think there are some exciting opportunities that will come off the back of that. For instance, there are organisations like school boards of trustees and tertiary institution councils, and there are opportunities to serve on juries, local authorities, M\u0101ori Trust Boards, boards of directors, the New Zealand Council for Educational Research, scholarship boards, licensing trusts\u2014the list goes on and on. A famous pop song came out a few years ago where the songwriter encouraged people to get physical. I would suggest that one of the consequences of this bill passing in the House is that people from the disabilities sector can now be encouraged to get political. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESome of the areas in New Zealand where we still want to see a much better connect between policy and practice will be better facilitated when people with disabilities are able to serve on boards of trustees without question, similar to what has happened previously with tertiary institution councils and local authorities. Frustration has been expressed by people around transport issues, for instance, and there has been a feeling that sometimes certain bodies are slow to take up their responsibilities to ensure the active participation of people with disabilities and to pull down those barriers that exclude participation. People will no longer be able to be do this without having to sit across the table from somebody who lives day in and day out with that barrier, and they will have to continue to oppose it or neglect it while eyeballing that person across the table. I think that is an extremely good thing, and I encourage the ongoing development of further participation by people within the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI was really interested to note that one of the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s considerations was the financial cost of implementing the bill. United Future believes that every change will cost us, and any change that does not cost us is probably not worth the paper it is written on. Of course this bill will cost\u2014it should cost. United Future is less concerned about that aspect than, obviously, some members of the select committee are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the great things is that this ratification will increase the scrutiny of compliance with obligations by both the private sector and the public sector. The select committee noted in its report that it considers it \u201Cimperative that organisations, companies, and institutions should consider the convention when any pertinent changes are being made or policies are being developed, to avoid having to make changes to comply retrospectively.\u201D I think the great thing about what this bill does tonight is that from hereon in we should not be constantly having to retrospectively apply new gains for this sector, and that those in the sector should start to see in a much more proactive way their needs for inclusion considered right at the beginning of every new issue as it comes before both national government and local bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future does not want to prolong this, but we are very excited. We congratulate the Minister on ensuring that this bill is passed by 3 October for all the good things that come off the back of it, and we congratulate and thank all the people from the Disabled Persons Assembly for being here to oversee tonight\u2019s proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4b5ba0b3aea47f99d5f389e5f274e25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4b5ba0b3aea47f99d5f389e5f274e25\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call, because other members have really said it all. The aim of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill, as we know, is to make amendments to certain New Zealand enactments, including statutes and regulations, and this will enable New Zealand to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. As the Minister said, New Zealand signed the convention at the United Nations on 30 March 2007, along with 80 other States. Since then 129 States have signed the convention and 28 States have ratified it. The convention came into force in May 2008, when the convention received its 20th ratification by a State party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 1, which we will come to in a few minutes, deals with certain amendments to Part 2 of the Human Rights Act 1993, which deals with unlawful discrimination. Part 2 deals with disqualification from certain public or fiduciary offices, commonly on the grounds of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1993. As the previous speaker, Judy Turner, observed, when one goes through the bill one sees that there is a very interesting miscellany of statutes, like the Juries Act 1981, the Taranaki Scholarships Trust Board Act 1957, and the River Boards Act 1908. Finally, Part 3 deals with some amendments to certain regulations, like the Child Support Rules 1992.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI congratulate the officials on the work they have done. It must have been a very exacting task to trawl through the statute book to identify the statutes in Part 2 and to make the consequential amendments, but it is an important task if the job is to be done properly. Much of the legislation needing change\u2014and I refer to the statutes in Part 2\u2014are older enactments that have not been amended for some time and that carry over wording from the past. An example is the River Boards Act 1908. I refer to section 29, which provides that certain persons may not be members of river boards. The bill refers to section 29(1)(b), where a person is detained in a hospital under the Mental Health Act 1969. I observe in passing that this legislation was last amended in 1986, and it could be that it should have been amended in 1993, when the statute to which I referred was passed\u2014that is, the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1993. But it is that kind of reference that needs to be dealt with if we are to have legislation that complies with the convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat the convention does not do is create new rights for disabled people; rather, it builds on conventional understandings of what is required to implement existing human rights as they relate to disabled people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ENational supports the first reading and we will support the bill through all its stages. The sooner it is the law the better. I observe that in March 2007, when signing the convention, the Minister Ruth Dyson stated: \u201CIt is important to bring the Convention into force as quickly as possible, so as to fill the gaps that exist without it and to redress some of the discrimination and injustices that persons with disabilities have faced over many years.\u201D However, legislation was introduced to this Parliament only in July 2008. With those comments I say that National will support the legislation, and we can take a closer look at Parts 1, 2, and 3 in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u002227d2c2b41d9a4f0cb6528c9b9a79d7da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227d2c2b41d9a4f0cb6528c9b9a79d7da\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to take a short call on this Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill, particularly after it seemed to me that a National member who spoke earlier was less than wholehearted in supporting it. I remind National members that they did try to delay the process of this bill. I offer my congratulations to the submitters. I acknowledge the people from the Disabled Persons Assembly whom we have here tonight, and who I believe helped to change the National Party\u2019s mind on the importance of this bill for the disabilities sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EI pay a tribute to the Minister for her consultation with the sector, for her promotion of this very important bill, and for her dedication over a very long period to removing barriers for disabled people and to working towards a fully inclusive society. I can say that as someone who was for some years the chair of the committee of my local district health board that dealt with the disabilities sector, and I know of the very good work this Minister has done over many years towards building a fully inclusive society. The debate on this bill tonight provides an opportunity to offer congratulations to the sector and congratulations to the Minister on some very good work on an important acknowledgment about just how important it is for the sector for us to address discrimination in New Zealand and in other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThis bill does several things that are really important. It removes outdated and discriminatory provisions in some of our New Zealand legislation that automatically disqualified people from certain public offices on the grounds of their being mentally disordered. What we will now have is a situation where a person\u2019s capacity to perform will be important\u2014and that, for the sector, is a very important change. Secondly, the bill clarifies the provision of reasonable accommodation in the Human Rights Act in certain areas where this provision is currently rather uncertain. That is pretty important, and it is very important for the sector. The removal of barriers is important. We have put a lot of dedicated work into saying to the sector that we recognise the barriers, we recognise the importance to these people of removing those barriers, and we will deliver on doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThis Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill delivers something very important: an acknowledgment to the sector. I am proud that I can support the bill tonight. I offer my congratulations to everybody who has been involved in it. Again, I offer my congratulations to those submitters who actually convinced the National Party to change its attitude and to acknowledge how important it is with regard to the legislation to get to this point in time for that date in October. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EI say in closing to those people who have come here tonight to actually listen to this final passage just how important it is for them to be involved, to have their voices heard, to be on the committees, to tell us as parliamentarians what they want, and to be part of the important consultation that helps us to deliver to a sector as important as theirs. So I thank them for being here tonight. I thank them for having submitted and having been part of the process. I look forward to working with those people in the future on what is important, on removing those barriers, and on addressing discrimination, and I say to them that they are part of the population of New Zealand whose lives we work to improve. Everything we do in this House is important in their day-to-day lives. I am really proud to see so many of them here tonight, and I thank them very much for the work they have put into what we are delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203982b7b90fb4559a10216fe74d688b3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u00229e260ff700544369a3dacbd9b489a4d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e260ff700544369a3dacbd9b489a4d5\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee stage debate to be taken as one question, with separate votes on the provisions of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb07dbded501411096df8e4debac970c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to do that. Is there any objection? There being no objection, that is how we will proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022824601a184e94bfe8c9bec41c28a71e6\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022e641b3d61e794edea31706853db64e1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e641b3d61e794edea31706853db64e1b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak on Parts 1, 2, and 3 of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill. National agrees entirely with it. We very much cooperated with the Government during the process of this bill. It was right that we questioned the Government from time to time on its processes. We had a rather mealy-mouthed interpretation from the Labour list member who emanates from the deep south, Lesley Soper. I thought it was a bit mean in spirit compared with the very generous spirit of the National Party towards this bill and its supporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIf we look at Parts 1, 2, and 3, we see that a huge number of pieces of legislation have to be amended by the bill in order for us to fulfil the various requirements of the convention. There are not only amendments to the Human Rights Act 1993\u2014an excellent Act brought in by the last National Government\u2014but also a variety of amendments to a huge spectrum of other statutes, ranging from the Community Trusts Act to, as my learned colleague Chris Finlayson pointed out, such unlikely legislation as the Soil Conservation and Rivers Control Act, the Taranaki Scholarships Trust Board Act, the Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Act, and a whole variety of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI shall for a moment concentrate on some of the issues around those suffering from psychiatric disabilities. We had a very strong submission from the Mental Health Commission, which pointed out that ratifying the convention was important because the vulnerability of disabled people, including people with psychiatric disability, demanded international safeguards at the highest level. The convention enables disability to be understood and addressed at a social level, and will serve as a positive framework for positive reforms of New Zealand law, Government policies, and community attitudes that promote social inclusion of people with psychiatric disabilities. There are many areas of exclusion of people with psychiatric disabilities. For instance, they are excluded from education boards. There is no question that many people with a mental disability are able to make a very positive contribution to such boards, but under the present statute they are not able to participate, to be elected, or to be appointed to those boards. These changes will make it possible for them to participate, and I think that is very positive indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is also important to point out how significant the prevalence of mental conditions in New Zealand is. This was very much emphasised by the Mental Health Commission. It said that about 20 percent of New Zealanders are currently experiencing, or have recently experienced, a mental health, alcohol-related, or drug-related problem. Out of the 20 percent, 4.7 percent of the survey population were assessed as currently having a serious disorder. Once again, that points out how very important it is that the stigma, prejudice, and discrimination that exist at so many levels of society towards those with mental health conditions are corrected. This legislation, which will help correct that situation, is very welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002286a6d14c3b8142f8b70b034f57fdac08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286a6d14c3b8142f8b70b034f57fdac08\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues): \u003C/span\u003EI want to take a brief call in the Committee stage of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill, but before I do that I thank the Committee for agreeing to have this debate in one part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe reason I want to take a brief call is to say, first of all, I have two Supplementary Order Papers in my name, and I want to ensure that members are aware of their production and their content. Given that every party has signed up to supporting them this is probably an exercise in futility, because we have already ensured that. But I would like to do that formally and put it on the record. Supplementary Order Papers 234 and 235 will be voted on as part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe second reason I want to take a brief call is to acknowledge the comments made by Christopher Finlayson in the second reading, in which he acknowledged the huge amount of work that has been undertaken by officials and others in order to prepare what is actually quite a small bill. I thank Mr Finlayson for his acknowledgment of the officials. A huge amount of work has gone into a very small bill. As well as the officials, of course, we have had disabled people themselves being part of the discussion from the very start of the process that is the reason why we have this bill. We have developed a convention that we want to ratify, and the role of disabled people in actually developing the convention was not only a reflection of the principles of the Disability Strategy but also a role model, and it changed the way the United Nations operated. I just want to put that on the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make is that the reason I want my contribution to be short is that the people who are listening to this debate have a life, and actually, they want to spend some of it tonight by sleeping, There is no debate to be had; every single party is in agreement with this bill. I urge its rapid progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00227cf224089e1d46ac85730f2dd9e7d763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cf224089e1d46ac85730f2dd9e7d763\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I take note of the incredibly popular suggestion that the Minister for Disability Issues has just made, and I shall speak quickly!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI would like to add my voice to those expressing the pleasure associated with this bill being a unanimous decision of the House. I note the huge number of pieces of legislation that have to be adjusted. Even in these days of computer technology, I am sure it is a massive task. I say to my colleague Paul Hutchison that I misled him: the bill does involve trout, because I notice that freshwater fish legislation is included\u2014so, yes, trout are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities is particularly important for vulnerable members of society, and particularly for sufferers of psychiatric illness. Twenty percent of New Zealanders, we have just been told, are currently enduring some form of mental disorder. With modern psychiatric medicine, I guess we can say that in most cases it will be of a temporary nature\u2014a temporary disorder\u2014and thank goodness for that. None the less, we need legislation that prevents people from being marginalised, excluded, or isolated from normal life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ESchoolchildren with special needs are worthy of special attention. I have noticed, as I have gone round the New Zealand Educational Institute meetings that I have been invited to recently, the difficulty associated with the Government\u2019s decision that 1 percent of schoolchildren be regarded as needing special-needs support. How on earth can a Government decide that a particular percentage of people will be worthy of assistance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThere is still a way to go yet in making this legislation the practical tool that I am sure everybody in the gallery hopes and expects it will be. I have enjoyed my exposure to this bill, to the information it has provided, and to the work of the select committee. I have enjoyed my involvement, and I feel that I am a wiser person as a consequence of having been involved. It is with pleasure that National members express support for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022663fbf70b64a42cebd2142c00e88ae32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022663fbf70b64a42cebd2142c00e88ae32\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take just a brief call, because Dr Hutchison made one comment that I really cannot let pass\u2014and I am sorry to spoil what has been a multipartisan mood in the House. The Human Rights Act 1993 is excellent legislation, but members opposite have no right to claim any credit for its pedigree as far as disability is concerned. The Minister of Justice at the time, Doug Graham, would not put disability in the Act as a ground of prohibited discrimination. It took the courage of Katherine O\u2019Regan to put forward a Supplementary Order Paper to put that ground, as well as that of sexual orientation, into the Human Rights Act, as the National Government of the time would not do it. Let it not be forgotten that that Supplementary Order Paper went through only due to the support of most members on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI am sorry to say it, but the debate I have heard tonight from members opposite is really disappointing. Those members still do not get it\u2014this is not about trout, and it is not about river boards. When there are people in the gallery whose quality of life is at stake, it is really insulting to go on about the minutiae of bills like this. This is about their rights, and those members need to get that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill, and the Human Rights Amendment Bill (No 2), pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 235.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288c23e6dfa14468d8145377d07864f2d\u0022\u003EDisability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288c23e6dfa14468d8145377d07864f2d\u0022\u003EHuman Rights Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a85fbc6d2764bc8b9e1b6fbce62975f\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb4100a1468f41a3b10fc2a51593395c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb4100a1468f41a3b10fc2a51593395c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill and the Human Rights Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. Passing these bills will enable New Zealand to proceed to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. This action will reinforce our leadership role with other States in the promotion of human rights for all people and continue our leading role with regard to the convention, in particular. Passing these bills will result in New Zealand being confident that our legislation, our policy, and our practice are not inconsistent with the convention, and that its ratification can proceed. I appreciate the support of other parties in the House, which has made this possible. The commitment of the whole House sends a clear signal about the value that must be placed on the inclusion of disabled people in our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002236e0ad7ac2474d959e14f1e281fec9cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236e0ad7ac2474d959e14f1e281fec9cb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the third reading of this very important and benchmark legislation, the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill and the Human Rights Amendment Bill (No 2). It is a great day when all parties in Parliament support legislation such as this. It is, however, really important also that when there are concerns about process, they are taken in a constructive light. And there were concerns about process with this legislation. However, the National Party has done everything possible at every stage to make sure we are in full cooperation with the Minister. And I must say the Minister has also done a great deal to ensure that we were well informed beforehand, and that we were able to do what we wished to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHowever, we were, of course, concerned about the fact that a broad range of parties were unable to have time to submit on this legislation, and that was something that I think does require a reality check. This is very serious legislation, and this convention is very serious, and we take it seriously. We do not want to have false expectations. We want to ensure that the aspirations of this sort of legislation can indeed be translated into reality. That is why we were concerned that people like the Certified Builders Association, the unions, and businesses that are affected and have to make the real, practical changes to their buildings or their access ways, and that do indeed have financial implications imposed upon them, are appropriately consulted, so that indeed, I say to Mr Chauvel, these expectations can be realised. I hope the member takes it on board that this is not a rose-tinted pass to everything happening suddenly. It must be done piece by piece, stage by stage, in a practical, sincere, and appropriate way. That is the way the National Party would have appreciated it being done if we possibly could have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHowever, I am absolutely delighted with the way everybody has worked to get this legislation through. I, too, thank all of the officials, because I know they have had to do a tremendous amount of hard work over this very short time span. I understand there is still more hard work to come in order to achieve the realisations that the legislation promises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI also sincerely want to thank the disability sector for the tremendous amount of work it has done for many years in order to bring this about. I know that it has spent, on its part, year after year lobbying all sorts of different people, including the National Party, and I must say that it has been for me a source of constant inspiration and learning to have had connection with the whole disability sector, whether it be CCS Disability Action, or IHC or, of course, DPA. It has been a great pleasure and a real privilege to be involved with the thinking and the sincerity that have been behind bringing this about tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIndeed it is a great occasion that we come to the third readings of this legislation. It is quite complicated in its background; it has heavy implications in a whole variety of legislation, including the mental health legislation that I mentioned earlier on. There are quite subtle changes in the way things are changed to ensure that people who are suffering mental illnesses are able to fully participate in a whole variety of circumstances\u2014such as on school boards\u2014that they have not been able to in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EPassing this legislation is indeed another step in terms of implementing the New Zealand Disability Strategy, and in terms of going along the pathway to accessibility and ensuring that New Zealand becomes a fully inclusive society. So it is with great pleasure that the National Party supports this legislation\u2019s passage in its third readings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce26c909ee134b0cab21b49a8684ec92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce26c909ee134b0cab21b49a8684ec92\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First, I rise to support the third readings of the Disability (United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities) Bill and the Human Rights Amendment Bill (No 2). This legislation has been an absolute pleasure to be involved with. It is a really great occasion to see it passed tonight. We have to say thank you to the officials, who have done the job very well, and we appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First believe that this legislation is a very positive move forward for the disability sector and is very worthy of support. Of course, it has that support from all parties in this House. That universal support, I must say, is very rare, and when attained, it can actually be celebrated. It can be seen as the result of some very successful and useful discussions with all parties involved. I counted up the number of Acts that are affected by this legislation, and it is 23, so it is quite a significant number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI also thank the Minister Ruth Dyson. Her advocacy and dedication has ensured that all parties now have a disability policy and are aware of disability issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1fe74fae12437fae528b5b35113c8d\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: No. National doesn\u2019t have a policy yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e2492ded19c4341b262744de8231f24\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: It should have. I also thank the disability sector for following up this issue with politicians and for the work that it has done. It has not been easy, and I can assure the sector that we have all learned much from it. So I thank the sector for continuing to work with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First believe that we have made a lot of progress with the recognition of equal rights for all people, but we are aware that there is still quite some way to go. We are happy now that the legislation and the strategies are all in place. Now we need to move forward, and we will be looking forward to monitoring progress in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EJust in closing, I would like to say that New Zealand First congratulates the disability sector on the work it has done to ensure that its voices have been heard. It is a big step forward and we are looking forward to further progress. New Zealand First supports this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00223826ac0d80f64834b1f951b98a467d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223826ac0d80f64834b1f951b98a467d94\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will take only a very brief call on the third readings of this legislation. It is sufficient to just say that United Future sees this legislation as not a small but a significant legislative step. But it is a step in a journey that still has some measurable distance to be covered, so I say our commitment to this step tonight goes with a larger commitment to the ongoing need for policy development and the delivery of services that empower people to live lives of their own choice. We are committed to that. I thank all parties, I thank the officials, and I thank those in the sector who have taken the time to get into United Future\u2019s face over the last 3 years in order to ensure that we listened to them, that we continue to listen to them, and that we continue to learn, so that everything we advocate for on their behalf reflects what they want. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002297a0a70788184f74ab59257ef516dd4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297a0a70788184f74ab59257ef516dd4e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E These third readings are, I guess, are an opportunity for members, in company with their colleagues, to express thanks to those who have been involved in the preparation of this legislation. It certainly was useful to have that degree of preparation. This is also an opportunity to acknowledge, again, the support for the legislation from the disability sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI am sorry that Mr Chauvel, my colleague on the Justice and Electoral Committee, was not present to hear earlier speeches. To some extent I felt he tried to cheapen the debate. Mr Chauvel should know that trout actually do play a part in therapy, and on more than one occasion I have fished on the banks of the Arnold River in Westland, by arrangement, with people recovering from mental illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis legislation has a very wide reach, and it is important to ensure that it is fully and effectively developed, rather than it being just a much vaunted piece of rhetoric. We have to reach beyond the disability sector to create an understanding and awareness amongst people who, through no fault of their own, do not have a clear understanding of the implications of this legislation. For the disability sector this legislation is a line that it has been waiting to reach, and I congratulate it on reaching that line. For the rest of us, it is just a beginning. The work begins now. I am sure the work and preparation that has been done by the present Minister, Ruth Dyson, is a tribute to the way things can be done. The rest of us must make sure that it is followed through so that the real benefits continue on well beyond this evening\u2019s celebration. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00221d649dce4fa44ead95eb98bb7a55a47a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d649dce4fa44ead95eb98bb7a55a47a\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to take a brief call in the third reading stage, when we analyse the legislation as it has emerged from the Committee stage. The Committee stage tonight was fairly brief, but it is worth mentioning just one or two things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe first is that we had an extraordinary contribution from Mr Chauvel toward the end of the Committee stage. It is worth noting. He took exception to something Dr Hutchison had said about the provision in the Human Rights Act 1993 to prevent discrimination on the ground of disability. He said that the provision came not from the National Party but from Kathy O\u2019Regan, who was then the MP for Waipa. He failed to acknowledge that Kathy O\u2019Regan was the National member for Waipa, and that it was the National Party members who pushed issues of discrimination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next issue from Mr Chauvel\u2019s funny little outburst that I want to address concerns his suggestion that we on this side were focusing on the words of statutes, rather than on concepts. I know that an analysis of the words of statutes is not exactly Mr Chauvel\u2019s strong suit, but when we look at the words of, particularly, the statutes contained in Part 2, we see how pervasive discrimination against disabled people has been, and why there needs to be detailed analysis of statutes to enable that discrimination to be overcome. The point is that the amendments in Part 2, which I referred to briefly in the course of my first reading speech, are primarily concerned with statutes that seek to disqualify certain people from public or fiduciary offices in a wide variety of ways, be it from juries, from boards, from river boards, or from the various other institutions that are created by the statutes referred to in Part 2. We all know that most statutes creating those sorts of bodies provide for automatic disqualification on grounds such as bankruptcy or criminal conviction, but another common ground that pervaded all those statutes was disqualification\u2014automatic disqualification\u2014where a person was mentally disordered, and there was reference to the Mental Health Act 1969 and, more recently, the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992. What the changes seek to achieve is to do away with automatic disqualification for mental disorder, and, rather, to replace it with a test based on the exercise of certain powers under the Protection of Personal and Property Rights Act of 1988.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThat is why, for example, the officials undertook a detailed analysis of the various sections of the Juries Act where this discrimination was pervasive\u2014for example, section 8, which prohibits certain people from serving on a jury. The legislation removes the prohibition on people with a mental disorder serving on a jury, but retains the prohibition on people with certain other disabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo the words are very important. Of course, if we as parliamentarians are to do our job justly, we need to focus on the words, because it is the words that matter and it is the words that create the discrimination that the United Nations convention seeks to address. As we ratify it into our domestic law, we have to deal with those pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI found it incredible, as I was reading through the legislation in the course of the select committee hearing, to note that the discrimination even extended to regulations, as Mr Auchinvole said. The issue, of course, is not trout, as Mr Chauvel would have us believe in that rather demeaning manner of his; the Freshwater Fish Farming Regulations 1983 actually contain extraordinary regulations that allow the manager of a licensee\u2019s estate appointed under the Mental Health Act 1969 or the Aged and Infirm Persons Protection Act 1912 to transfer and operate a licence in certain circumstances. That is the kind of thing that needs to be swept away, and it certainly happens with this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI once again congratulate all those who have been involved in all stages of this legislation, from those in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade who represented the New Zealand Government and people when the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was being discussed, to the Ministry of Justice officials who dealt so carefully with the various pieces of legislation to ensure that this good-quality product was achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI end by saying that, yes, National members had some concerns about process, but we swept those to one side because we were more interested in dealing with the substantive matters, and out of deference to the good people who made very powerful submissions to the select committee\u2014and I do not think there was one member on the committee who was not very interested in those submissions and did not follow them closely. But there were shortcomings. For example, the closing date for submissions was 21 July 2008, but the original bill was referred to us only on 22 July. The proper analyses that should have been done were not done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPutting all of that to one side, the National Party was supportive of this legislation because, in an incremental way, it sweeps away some of the law that has formed the basis of discrimination against disabled people over the years. But that is only the first step, as Mr Auchinvole said. One can deal with the words in a statute or the words in regulations, and that is the foundation on which we can move from statutes and regulations to practices, to the way that people with disabilities are able to contribute to New Zealand society to the fullest extent. National members are pleased to support the third reading of this legislation, and the sooner it is passed into law the better. In fact, a very good argument could be made that because the convention was ratified in March 2007, the Government could have moved much more quickly on this matter, and it could have been law before now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00227f1ae72ff0e542339e003e7472bebed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f1ae72ff0e542339e003e7472bebed1\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I share the sentiments, or some of the sentiments, of Chris Finlayson\u2014certainly, that the sooner the legislation is passed, the better it will be. I know that it will be passed this evening, and I think it is great that we have the support of all members in the House for it. As I said earlier, some members were a little reticent about coming forward, in terms of making money into a little more of a consideration than I think it needed to be. But with good advice, and certainly with compelling submissions, this is the point we are at now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThis is the time when we should acknowledge, as we did before, all the work that has gone before us. This is the final stage in the process, and, as important as it is, I say much has been done by many people in leading us to this point. I particularly want to acknowledge all the work that went in\u2014work that actually made New Zealand a leader in terms of these rights. There are too many people involved for me to name them all, but in particular I want to acknowledge Don Mackay, who really played a huge leadership role in this area. Certainly, I know that everyone in this House and those who have seen the work that Don has undertaken will join me in acknowledging him in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI think this legislation is historic\u2014and I am looking at the clock, because I am not going to let so much time go by that this legislation does not pass tonight. I would very much like to add, along with everybody else, my full support for this legislation to go forward. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00228aa91567a3e84b01865f175b40f4c032\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aa91567a3e84b01865f175b40f4c032\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E It is obvious that the support of the House for this legislation tonight is important. We have heard some very good speeches on the whole area of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. We have had people here who have expertise in this area, and, although I was not on the Justice and Electoral Committee, I certainly realise the importance of this legislation for those people who are in the gallery tonight. National has much pleasure in supporting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20080902ecc683fd9dd34038afa638805700a093001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a1a7e513bb8474b8cae2c5494dc440d\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ec3745cc281490791dfd40cecd3a5ae\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 4 September 2008)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b077c94a113b45b189c4e3ae4ad3dd1e\u0022\u003ETe Roroa Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c47fa6a4958041baa9c70399128f301a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d167981550043e7bc9d577c6d02ce76\u0022\u003EPreamble\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8a58e86be1c4f36b37ac09a28a4b6ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8a58e86be1c4f36b37ac09a28a4b6ff\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Normally with these sorts of bills, because they are momentous in a number of ways, the Opposition is given an opportunity to sit down with the Minister, or the Associate Minister, and receive a briefing. We are still waiting for that briefing. Funnily enough, yesterday I happened to pass the Hon Michael Cullen, the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, and I must say a pretty damn good one. But he said to me, on passing\u2014and he looked very pale\u2014\u201COh, have we given you a briefing on the Te Roroa bill?\u201D, and I happened to say \u201CNo, but it\u2019s all right; we\u2019ve come to expect that sort of treatment by the present Government.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWe see here an attempt to put right a wrong that happened not 100 years ago, not 50 years ago, but about 9 months ago, or around that time, when the Government could manage to cough up only $9 million, and it was just not enough. The people told the Government that it was not enough. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee was told that it was not enough. There were issues to deal with, about not only the quantum but some of the valuations, and some of the returning of taonga had to be sorted out. So now we are back because of the prodding of the Opposition, and because of the sterling work of the select committee. I think that individual members of this House have been back and forward to the claimants, having a few words about the settlement, and finally the claimants have an opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ENational will support the bill, but not without a few kicks and a few punches here and there, because I think the treatment not only of Te R\u014Droa in this whole shambles but also of the Opposition party, which has had no briefing whatsoever, has been pretty terrible. In fact, many Opposition members had to ring the claimants, and the claimants\u2019 lawyers, to find out what was going on. If that is the way this Government wants to run things, well, it is no wonder that the jug has boiled over and they will be out of there within a couple of months, because the country wants better from a Government, especially when it is dealing with a Treaty settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThis might not be the biggest Treaty settlement, but for the people up there it is the biggest thing since sliced bread. So those are the opening salvos, and I say \u201CLet\u2019s get on with it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022458e06a0de3d4270aceca2922961292d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022458e06a0de3d4270aceca2922961292d\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Members should consider the history of this matter. The Waitangi Tribunal reported on this issue in 1992. Between 1992 and 2005 the tribe and the Crown were engaged in periodic negotiations. Then on 20 December 2004 the party signed an agreement in principle. In 2005, shortly before Christmas, Te R\u014Droa ratified the Crown\u2019s initial settlement offer and entered into a deed of settlement. Then on 14 February 2007 the bill was introduced, and on 1 March 2007 we had the first reading and the referral to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn the 3 years I have been in this place I have never been more moved by submissions to a select committee than I was by the submissions made by the good people of Te R\u014Droa in Dargaville shortly before Easter last year. Several people were genuinely upset at the history of the matter and at the way the matter had played out, and the majority of the select committee were very concerned\u2014I know my friend from New Zealand First certainly was, and we three in the National Party were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhen the bill was being dealt with in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, we were very concerned about durability. The Government did not talk to Opposition members\u2014we heard nothing. As the Hon Tau Henare said this morning, we have continued to hear nothing. Any information about improvements to the settlement proposal has been obtained from the claimants. I think it is a tragic state of affairs when a senior Opposition MP is spoken to in such a dismissive way by the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, Dr Michael Cullen, as he wandered through the Beehive last night. It is simply unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe in the Opposition regard these Treaty settlement bills as being of paramount importance. To quote the words of Isaiah, I say that we are \u201Cundoing the heavy burdens of the past.\u201D To be treated in such a cavalier, smart alec fashion by the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is simply unacceptable. His performance over this legislation makes Mark Burton look competent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db18031e34094b559d9c1606d4489aba\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe that\u2019s going to far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a985b275204d2097121e36629827e3\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they are tough words, but tough words need to be said about the legislative history of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe still await a formal briefing. It is unacceptable that we have been treated in this way, and, more important, it is unacceptable that Te R\u014Droa has been treated in this way. This matter has not been treated as an important historical Treaty settlement. It has been reduced to the level of commercial bartering so that the Government can push this legislation through. Will it be durable? Well, we will have to wait and see. But New Zealand deserves better than this kind of legislative shambles, and Te R\u014Droa deserves better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe will have a good look at the bill as we go through the various clauses. As Mr Henare said, we know, having spoken to the tribal claimants, that by a majority the trust board has indicated that it wants the settlement to proceed. Therefore, we will support the legislation, but we are very unhappy at the way the iwi has been treated, and we are not impressed with the way we have been treated. We still do not know the detail other than what we have managed to glean from the various claimants. This is not the way Treaty settlements should be conducted. A higher standard is required, and the Minister should be disgusted with himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022180b9b8fca2341ef8ca777dacf33563b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022180b9b8fca2341ef8ca777dacf33563b\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very, very pleased the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill has now found its way to the top of the Order Paper and that we are here this morning to help progress it. My colleague Chris Finlayson talked about the tenure, the gestation, of this bill from 1992 till now. That is a long, long time for any iwi to be waiting for their settlement to be brought to a conclusion. As I say, I am very pleased for the iwi that we are here this morning. My colleagues are correct: I know that Tau spent quite a lot of time on the phone yesterday\u2014as did Chris and I\u2014chasing down claimants and lawyers to see whether there had indeed been an improvement on this bill. Obviously, if the bill has made its way to the top of the Order Paper, there must have been an improvement, but we do not know what it is. So that we on this side of the Chamber are not talking slightly in the dark, I wonder whether the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mita Ririnui, might take a call now and let us know about the improvements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EClearly, National has indicated it will support the bill and we do that on the basis that claimants have indicated that they are happy with it\u2014at least, they are willing to accept the improvements and see this bill progress. But, in my view, at the end of the day it is up to the Government and the Minister in charge of the Committee stage now to enlighten us and to officially, formally, tell us what those improvements are. As I say, I am waiting for the Minister to take a call. Hopefully it will be when I resume my seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe are debating the preamble to the bill, and in the couple of minutes that I have left I want to talk about the background to the claim, which, of course, is set out in the preamble. After all the political to-ing and fro-ing between the Government and ourselves, as there has been this sort of interregnum when nothing has happened for the last however many months\u2014is it 7 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7c439443ff04ea2a5ca07fc94530db1\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: At least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd7b7d1c91a41359c47e6dc37ce24e1\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, since we were last in the Chamber debating this matter\u2014we need to remind ourselves why we are here now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThese people, Te R\u014Droa, are an ancient people with a history that was clearly a proud history, until, of course, they came up against the settlers, the Government, not long after the Treaty was signed, when things started to turn to custard for them. So, yes, we can talk about the last 15-odd years but we must remember that the events that give rise to this claim originated way, way back, not too long after the Treaty was signed\u2014indeed, their own people signed that Treaty. We must not forget, as I say, in the political shots that are fired between ourselves in this Parliament, that there is a sad history behind this claim, and it has been made even more tragic, in my view, by the delay that has been a feature of this settlement for the last 15 years, and, particularly, for the last 7 to 10 months when the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee clearly indicated that we were not happy with the settlement that had been offered to Te R\u014Droa. The committee members went to hear the submissions and it was so very, very clear that little of the hurt that these people have carried for all of these years had been atoned for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI agree with my colleague Chris Finlayson that the hearing of the submissions was an eye-opener, really. One could feel the hurt the submitters were carrying, and the Government offered the settlement that it did\u2014a settlement that, indeed, one would almost say that, rather than becoming the springboard for the development of Te R\u014Droa, it will likely become a bit of an albatross around their neck. As I say, National will support this bill but we would like to know the detail of the improvements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u002208c72fab8ee34558ad306471e295d5eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208c72fab8ee34558ad306471e295d5eb\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chairperson. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. When we come to the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill, we recognise the wider framework in which all Treaty settlements take place, and we say it is vital that we get that right. Inevitably, when we think of those who are putting forward claims\u2014we recognise the statutory registration threshold, which is that claimants must be M\u0101ori and then cite the actions of the Crown that were prejudicial in relation to the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014we think also of all those who have signed up to those claims, and their descendants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn the case of Te R\u014Droa, I will never forget one particular submission to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee that was put forward by Te R\u014Droa Manawhenua Trust and Te R\u014Droa Whatu Ora Trust. That submission suggested that Te R\u014Droa will not be in a strong financial position following settlement, but the trusts were prepared to concede that, following 14 years of difficult negotiations, the settlement reached was the best possible deal available in the circumstances\u2014I repeat, in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThose circumstances were brought to the world\u2019s attention last year by a damning report by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. The United Nations committee was concerned about our Government\u2019s routine ignoring of Waitangi Tribunal recommendations and noted that \u201Csuch arrangements deprive claimants of a right to an effective remedy\u201D. Those are circumstances that are tabled in the House on an ongoing basis\u2014the views of the people that the Treaty settlements process is an exhausting, abusive process that grinds claimants into a position of defeated acceptance. But as Te R\u014Droa Manawhenua Trust and Te R\u014Droa Whatu Ora Trust reminded the select committee, this was the best possible deal available to Te R\u014Droa in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWhat made that submission stand out in my memory forever was a simple statement, followed by a list of names, a roll-call three and a half pages long. The trustees wished to note the people who have passed away during this period; that was the full extent of their submission. The sense of absolute defeat and emptiness is very palpable. Ka maumahara m\u0101tou ki a r\u0101tou\u2014we will always remember them. What is even more poignant, of course, is that we know that list will be longer now. The cost to Te R\u014Droa, both at a financial level and in relation to the suffering and loss of its people, has been really high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are mindful that those costs extend outside the boundaries of its rohe. The select committee report noted the late introduction into the debate of concerns from the Hokianga Whanau, Hapu, Land and Resource Claims Collective. The collective\u2019s view was that the Te R\u014Droa settlement would jeopardise its claims, and it sought an assurance from the select committee that such an injustice would not take place. The Office of Treaty Settlements confirmed that during negotiations it had consulted groups that have claims inside Te R\u014Droa\u2019s area of interest, but that the work on claims in the surrounding areas was incomplete. Although the committee noted the situation was unsatisfactory, it stated that no amendment to the bill could improve it. So again an injustice continues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWhat happened to Te R\u014Droa must not be relegated to history. The record of continued breaches by the Crown against Te R\u014Droa is a matter for public record, and we must all learn from that. The House must take responsibility for the Crown\u2019s confiscation of the Te K\u014Dpuru block and the destruction of Ng\u0101ti Whiu and Ng\u0101ti Kawa communities. The House must take responsibility for the unconscionable seizure of the multibillion-dollar flora and fauna of the Waipoua Forest. The House must take responsibility for the Crown\u2019s theft of Te R\u014Droa w\u0101hi tapu, its attempted destruction of the Waipoua community, its violation of taonga, and its persistent failure to listen to Te R\u014Droa\u2019s grievances. Those are not matters that can rest easily on the nation\u2019s conscience; neither should they. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EGiven the extent, seriousness, and continuation of the Crown\u2019s breaches against Te R\u014Droa, the M\u0101ori Party has placed on record its immense dissatisfaction with the quantum that is under proposal. Our recommendation has been that the quantum must be increased sufficiently to allow Te R\u014Droa to purchase both Kaharau and Te Taraire and also to ensure the durability of the settlement. The Crown refused to include Kaharau and Te Taraire in the Treaty settlement or to find a way in which they could be included. I want us all to reflect on what such obstinacy does to the soul of a people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EKaharau is a large area that includes burial caves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88cf5376b3c4795bf9d919ca9402f7e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to call again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d24b52deb9ff485db621211121f9f1c2\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb90e119b4e64e7097303e924bb6d714\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: That is all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b875a97752354494b602667acd68a707\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc483065861461fb109d1b0eb7f3bcc\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Tariana Turia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6f8fb585e544b59496f02f5d862b3e\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA\u003C/span\u003E: I have been here long enough to know I should have sought the call again. Te Taraire is an area of similar cultural significance to Kaharau, and both areas are located at Waimamaku. They are the sites of critical cultural redress, and the failure to see them as such compromises the settlement. Not only was nothing included in the quantum for the express purpose of buying back those areas but many in Te R\u014Droa found the suggestion that they be forced to buy back their own w\u0101hi tapu, including k\u014Diwi of their t\u016Bpuna and wakat\u016Bp\u0101paku, insulting, offensive, and degrading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe have been particularly concerned about the negative impact that poor settlement processes have on the durability of any settlement, and about the deep rifts that have arisen because of the effect of flawed processes on overlapping claimants. The processes have often created enormous harm within tribal relationships that have existed for generations. In the case of Te R\u014Droa, we think back to the submissions of Patrick Paraone Welsh, of Sheena Ross for the Moetara wh\u0101nau, of the Rev Daniel Ambler, who is a former tribal negotiator, and of Gary Hooker, Te R\u014Droa\u2019s tribal historian and mandated negotiator. We think of the overwhelming sadness that they expressed in their submissions. It was their considered opinion that, given the strength of claimant objections to being forced into a full and final settlement, the Crown should abandon the use of that phrase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWill Ng\u0101kuru told the select committee that for the members of Te R\u014Droa and the descendants of Ng\u0101kuru Pana, the settlement would never be full and final until the burial places at Kaharau and Te Taraire were returned, as was the wish of their t\u016Bpuna. Seven words in that submission said it all: \u201CWe agree to this Bill under duress.\u201D \u201CDuress\u201D means to be coerced, to be forced into something beyond one\u2019s will\u2014is that really what we want our Treaty relationships to be? Another way forward was recommended by Professor David Williams, who suggested that rather than go down the path of unseemly haste, with the obsession of time frames and deadlines, all parties should engage in a longer conversation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThese settlements are truly what one could understand to be heartbreaking. I have been listening to National members and the speeches that they have made not only on this matter but on other settlements, and they may yet get their day. But the parameters for Treaty settlements were, in fact, set by National. So, should the opportunity present itself, let us see whether National can do any better than this Government has done. We in the M\u0101ori Party are always torn between our love for the people and our respect that their wishes be heard, and our absolute contempt for the way in which the policies and procedures used to negotiate settlements with hap\u016B and iwi have been so flawed. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chairperson. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002216d427f88fe5464ea0a930281274709b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216d427f88fe5464ea0a930281274709b\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou o te Whare nei. T\u0113n\u0101 hoki koutou o te hau k\u0101inga, ar\u0101, Te Roroa m\u0113n\u0101 kei te m\u0101takitaki mai, m\u0113n\u0101 hoki e are taringa mai, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. I acknowledge my relatives of Te R\u014Droa who may be watching, or who may even be listening to, the debate on this bill concerning their Treaty claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOnce again I say that I have a vested interest, and I say that specifically for those who belong to a group called the One New Zealand Foundation. Since the introduction of this bill they have hounded me with a number of emails, suggesting that because of my vested interest I should not be participating in the debate on this bill. But I have declared that interest, and my participation in this debate will always be focused on the issue and not on my own personal interest. I say that to those principals of that organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI also want to have it recorded in this Chamber that I take exception to members of that organisation making contact with my father\u2014when he was alive\u2014to question my whakapapa in relation to the claimants of this bill. As a consequence, I have now ceased to correspond with or even talk to the person to whom I always made myself available to discuss these issues. He knows who he is, but I am not going to give him the privilege of having his name recorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EHaving got that off my chest, I will speak to the preamble, which I think gives a very good historical background to this claim. It highlights the importance this iwi has put on their w\u0101hi tapu. I think that it is the issues surrounding w\u0101hi tapu that have given cause for some disquiet for those who have negotiated on behalf of Te R\u014Droa. The sites, particularly some that are outside the purview of the bill, have given some cause for further discussion between the representatives of Te R\u014Droa and, as I understand it, the Crown. The issue of quantum has certainly been a debating point for the people of Te R\u014Droa. The fact that some of these w\u0101hi tapu are located on land that is outside the settlement quantum is what many of Te R\u014Droa are concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI should say that this bill has some historical significance not only for Te R\u014Droa but for the laws of this land. It was the report that emanated out of this claim that gave rise to legislation being introduced that excluded land in private ownership from any settlement quantum. For that, I think this bill will certainly have some significance in the history of the legislation of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI also need to say that I found it a little bit disturbing that some of the original negotiators were at odds with their colleagues on the negotiation team. Given that point of difference, the bill has proceeded along its way. I am not going to question that, because I think it really is an issue for the people of Te R\u014Droa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u00223a34553d50cb4f0fb8d2adf5dafbd20a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a34553d50cb4f0fb8d2adf5dafbd20a\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to take a very brief call in response to many of the comments that have been made by members from the National Party in relation to the level of consultation that they claimed they did not have from the Ministers in charge of this bill. I am mindful that we are actually on the preamble of Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill and I want to thank the New Zealand First member Pita Paraone for his contribution in terms of the accuracy of the preamble regarding the treatment of the Crown and its agencies toward the people of Te R\u014Droa over, shall we say, 160 years or so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI am standing for the benefit of National Party members to apologise if, in any way at all, they found the communication between me and them to be insufficient. But I say to the Hon Tau Henare that he is aware and I am aware that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee will be meeting at 1 o\u2019clock today for 1 hour, and I will take that opportunity to give him a formal apology. I know he has some issue with the select committee sitting at that time, but I am sure that he will make himself available, as will his colleagues the Hon Georgina te Heuheu and Christopher Finlayson, and at that time we can have an in-depth discussion around that particular matter. Their points are made very clear, and I will respond to them formally at that time, be they on the agenda or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe matters around the issues that were raised by way of submissions and were discussed by the select committee in terms of the quantum and the adjustments that have been made to satisfy the claimant groups of representatives of Te R\u014Droa, I am sure we can discuss further along in the Committee stage of this bill when we get to the part where we actually talk about the quantum. I just wanted to clarify those points. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62be109a06d4fd98fafcebd1e6a7f5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62be109a06d4fd98fafcebd1e6a7f5a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister Mita Ririnui for his humble apology. I accept the apology now because I do not think I will be at the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee this afternoon. Because we are in urgency, one has to take what one gets when one can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI put these questions to the Minister, though. The preamble to me means the beginning. It is the start of something. If we look at the preamble we see that 188 years are contained in 12 pages. That works out to about 16 years per page. If we look at the preamble, we see, right at the end of the 16 pages, that it does not give us an indication of what is new. There is a little chapter missing, if members understand my drift. So what is new? How much more? I know the Minister will address the quantum later on. Where are the changes? What about the valuations? This is the problem with not being given a briefing\u2014we do not know what we are supporting or opposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI think we have a very unfortunate situation. Like I said, 12 pages cover practically 188 years of tribal history in a nutshell\u2014little paragraphs here, there, and everywhere that I think should actually be put in a leather-bound book and be put in the archives for ever and a day. The preamble to a settlement bill is, I think, one of the most important parts. It does not matter what the quantum is and it does not matter who did what to whom. The preamble tells a story in a way that will enable people in subsequent generations to get a snapshot of what Te R\u014Droa is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to digress a wee bit and offer my support to my whanaunga Pita Paraone after the abuse he has taken from the One New Zealand Foundation. I say to him: \u201CAny time you want some back-up, matua, you know where we are.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIt is really important when we are doing these things to get off on the right foot, so I ask the Minister to take another call and finish the preamble as it should be finished. He should tell us what is new, why we are here, how much more there will be, and where the changes are. He should also tell us about the valuations. He should do this only if he wants to\u2014I will not die in a ditch over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI make one final point, and that is regarding the comments from the co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party about National. I suppose my comments are that we should not forget where we all started. By that I mean that I was a member of New Zealand First\u2014and a very proud member of New Zealand First\u2014back in the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc98d7b87384705afd2ad56acf31aed\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Then you got lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3aedaf3c35b4e58854a8e49c14c5366\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I may have got lost, but I am found again\u2014as I think the song \u201CAmazing Grace\u201D goes. But I say that members should not forget that Tariana Turia was also a Cabinet Minister in this Labour Government. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1cae9dc94c34d1b85823b01e22dc9f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1cae9dc94c34d1b85823b01e22dc9f5\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take another brief call to again mention the preamble. My colleague is right: the preamble is a very important part of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill. Te R\u014Droa have the advantage of a very comprehensive Waitangi Tribunal report, and much of what was traversed and found in that report now finds its way into the preamble in the bill before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIt would be great to read out some of this narrative in full for the benefit of those who are not in this place and who do not readily have access to the background to these settlements. I mentioned in my earlier contribution that Te R\u014Droa are an ancient people with a proud, proud history\u2014a history that quite soon after the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi started to become blighted by their interactions with the settling Government of the day, the M\u0101ori Land Court, and the legislation from those days, which has a lot to answer for in terms of breaches of the Treaty that have been found. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ETe R\u014Droa, once a proud community of various lands in the north, came to find themselves virtually alienated, disjointed, and lost\u2014lost from their whenua. That loss\u2014as I also referred to earlier\u2014still shows itself today in the way the people recount their history and share their aspirations for what they want to do into the future, and it was so obvious to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee when it went north to hear them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAlthough the claim that immediately gives rise to this settlement in the bill before us is more recent, Te R\u014Droa actually began petitioning the Crown from the late 1870s over the Crown\u2019s failure to provide appropriate reserves once the Crown had made up its mind to go in and by various means deprive Te R\u014Droa of their landholdings. As I say, there is a long history here. Further petitions were made into the early 20th century\u2014in 1907, and so on\u2014and between 1908 and 1912 approaches were again made to Parliament. This, like many claims, has a long history of petitions, other claims, court cases, and approaches to various Parliaments over a long, long period of time. That is why it is so important that New Zealand continues on its way to settling these longstanding injustices. I am sure it has been quite hurtful, in a way, for Te R\u014Droa over the last 12 months to witness the sudden burst of energy that has come into the process, driven by Dr Cullen, and to see other tribes move forward\u2014move ahead, even\u2014with the settlement of their claims, with Te R\u014Droa still languishing on the sidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ESo, yes, the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mita Ririnui, might like to be all tidy, and wait for us to move to the next part, but we are on the preamble and we are, in a sense, talking in the dark. The Minister did not brief us on the improvements to the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill. If the Minister had, we would not have been on the phone yesterday, chasing around the country. One of the claimant negotiators had been out of New Zealand for a month. Fortunately, I managed to get him. He had just hopped off the plane from the United States, and we were able to get some details. So, I say to the Minister in the chair, he should tell us now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022161cde5cc3d44acda0bdd7a918a164f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022161cde5cc3d44acda0bdd7a918a164f5\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I endorse everything my friend Mrs te Heuheu said, and I believe we could move very quickly through the Committee stage and third reading of Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill if we had some answers. But I will make a few preliminary points. First, I join Mr Henare in what he said about Mr Paraone. We have been receiving volcanic emails from the One New Zealand Foundation. That is not helpful, and I think that what the foundation did to him was totally unacceptable. It is a source of some regret that there are people in this country who do that sort of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I will make is that the Associate Minister generously indicated that he would be prepared to apologise for the insufficiency of consultation. Well, as Mrs te Heuheu said, where is the insufficiency? There was no consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe third point is that we want to move on from a culture of complaint. If I set out the detail of what I understand to be the position, and the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mita Ririnui, could condescend to confirm some of it, we will be able to move through the Committee stage very quickly. As I understand it, in about June this year, the Minister in the chair and the Hon Shane Jones had a visit to Dargaville, and a further Crown offer in settlement of the claim was made. I further understand the proposal is that the offer be implemented outside the Treaty claims settlement process. That is the first point, and I ask the Minister in the chair whether that is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second issue, dealing with the consequences of the Minister\u2019s visit to Dargaville, involves the increase in quantum. The settlement provided for about $9.5 million. Our understanding, as a result of discussions with various claimants, is that it has increased to around $15.5 million, to enable the purchase of certain farms. I ask the Minister whether he can confirm that, and confirm what the farms are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next element is that the Crown indicated it would purchase and vest in the iwi the portion of the Kaharau w\u0101hi tapu of about 1,400 to 1,500 acres of land known as \u201CBob\u2019s\u201D, and we would like to know whether the property has been purchased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe final element is that there would be a continued discussion between the parties regarding the Te R\u014Droa taonga, the burial chests that are held by the Auckland Museum. If we are dealing with those elements it is good, because it does deal with certain key issues that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee was very concerned about, but I would really like to know, before we move into the other parts of the bill, just what exactly the components of the settlement are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI say to the Government, it should not worry about an apology, or about a mea culpa. Let us move on from there. Let us look at the substance of the amended offer so that we can get through the Committee stage, get through the third reading, and ensure this bill is signed into law as quickly as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbff8e0159844515a33770ceb73da99e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbff8e0159844515a33770ceb73da99e\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I take the member\u2019s point, and I think that in the interests of moving on and getting a closure motion on this particular part of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill, in respect of the preamble, it probably is important to highlight some of the changes that have been made. I think it is also important to say first that these improvements, as we might classify them, did not require an amendment to the settlement legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EAs the member pointed out, he was of the view that an ex gratia payment had been made in respect of the deferred properties that Te R\u014Droa had expressed an interest in. As the member knows, and as members of this Parliament are aware, a number of issues were highlighted by Te R\u014Droa throughout the negotiations and the select committee process, and we discussed these in some depth in our deliberations. The issues related to certain w\u0101hi tapu, as they were classified, and there was a desire by Te R\u014Droa to have their history in relation to those properties acknowledged in a more tangible way\u2014and I mean by that to have those properties, wherever possible, returned to them. Steps have been made, through my colleague the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, to allow that to happen. And, yes, there is an ex gratia payment of about $6 million to allow Te R\u014Droa to purchase a particular property that is identified in the deferred properties schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI reiterate that these improvements do not require an amendment to the legislation. I think that if we had had to go down that track, we would have set the settlement negotiations back by some time. Through the foresight of Ministers, and in particular the current Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, better ways of doing things were discussed and resolved. To that end I take the member\u2019s point that it is important to highlight this, for the benefit of the Committee and in the interests of time, but I am glad that he does not want an apology because I do not do that very well. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EPreamble agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ea5710ae62149b09de3999ccae84f01\u0022\u003EPart 1  Purpose of Act, acknowledgements and apology, interpretation provisions, settlement of claims, and miscellaneous matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u002269f2b578e9a449e0ba9e4b5b9c6bb781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269f2b578e9a449e0ba9e4b5b9c6bb781\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mita Ririnui. Obviously we had the information, but it is good to get confirmation from him. It is also good that the decision was made to make improvements to this settlement in a way that did not delay the settlement through having to have a change in the legislation. We find that a great improvement from where we found ourselves some months ago, having to write a minority report on this settlement. We are very pleased that on the advice and affirmation of the claimants, and now the official indication from the Minister, we are able to say without any demur that we support the settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMy colleague made a comment about the apology. Of course, the apology is hugely important to Te R\u014Droa. We have now seen these apologies in the House over a number of years. The apology here follows the apology that has been part of previous settlements. The few words in clause 8 state: \u201CThe Crown profoundly regrets its breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles as detailed above and seeks to atone for those breaches.\u201D I have always been fascinated by the way in which those few words mean so much to claimants. For me they have always underpinned the burden of injustice that claimants have carried for nearly 160 years\u2014the burden of loss, not only in physical terms but also in human terms. While all of this has dragged on over generations and into the current generation, our old people have passed on without seeing any redress or any indication from the Crown, represented by whatever Government of the day, that wrongs were done and wrongs needed to be atoned for. So the apology in its preciseness is important to claimants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe apology is also important to us, because it indicates that in a sense the Crown is endeavouring to restore some of its own honour. Of course, by the actions of the Crown and of successive Governments from the 1840s onwards, the Crown has not only been in breach but has also been without honour. It has been in a place without honour, and that is not a good place to be. All of us here now in this Parliament, in our collective passing of laws, represent the Crown on behalf of New Zealand. So to be without honour in the way we have behaved and acted towards a group, a tribe\u2014wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi\u2014or any New Zealander, for that matter, and in this respect in relation to the particular settlement of Te R\u014Droa, is not a good thing. So the apology is important to them, but it is also important for us as representatives of the Crown in this House that the apology is made, that it is acknowledged, and that it is meant. Then we can put behind us a part of our history that none of us here today were responsible for. No New Zealander today was responsible for the hurt, but all New Zealanders want to feel that if the honour on their behalf has been lost or crushed, then that honour is restored. Today we move on behalf of the Crown to have our own honour restored, and to help to restore the honour of Te R\u014Droa, as well. That is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00226a0891d5301f408691fe44bb67729cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a0891d5301f408691fe44bb67729cb4\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will just take a call to talk very, very briefly about the Supplementary Order Paper that seeks to amend a couple of clauses. We totally agree with it. Clause 14, of course, has to be amended in that way because there is a new way of recording settlements in the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, and we have no problem with that. We also have no problem with the amendment that inserts new clauses 82A, 82B, and 82C after clause 82. It simply inserts additional clauses relating to the alteration of place names, and the clauses follow the model of the Affiliate Te Arawa Iwi and Hapu Claims Settlement Bill. So that is all good, technical, and sensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI just have two questions for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mita Ririnui, and I would be most grateful if he would answer them. Then I think we could just move through the remaining time in the Committee stage very quickly. The first issue relates to the deferred selection properties. Can the Minister give the Committee an indication of the date at which the properties are to be valued? Will it be December 2005, or some other date? I have a concern about that issue, because of the delay in dealing with this matter and the possible increase in land values that has happened over the last couple of years. So if the Minister could deal with that, it would solve a bit of a problem I have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn relation to the second issue, I am grateful to the Minister for his confirmation to me of the way in which the settlement is to be implemented, but I ask whether he could perhaps explain to the Committee what the impacts are on the Tainui and Ng\u0101i Tahu ratchet clauses, where the Crown provides settlement redress outside the Treaty settlement process. Is it accounted for in triggering those ratchet clauses? I am not quite sure about that. So if the Minister could provide some answers to those questions\u2014very simple questions\u2014I am sure we could move on very quickly and get through the Committee stage. We must get this legislation signed into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd1a86aa9a44e6b886b5ecac18e5f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd1a86aa9a44e6b886b5ecac18e5f5d\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chairperson. I think it would be very remiss of any member of New Zealand First currently in the Chamber not to speak to this part of the bill, and in particular to the clause where references are made to the Treaty of Waitangi and, more important\u2014as quoted in the bill\u2014to its principles. I do not need to reiterate what our concern is, but in terms of reading the actual clause itself one can easily suggest that it is implied that previous clauses actually outline the principles. I do not believe that that is the case; I certainly went through the previous clauses, and they do not outline the principles. I will quote from clause 8: \u201CThe Crown profoundly regrets its breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles as detailed above and seeks to atone for those breaches.\u201D Again, I take the opportunity of inviting the Minister in the chair to articulate what those principles are. However, having said that, we know that we are required to make some reference to them, because they are actually included in the apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0675dd1096344c09e78cf31ec10f40e\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s no bill if you don\u2019t do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274496b4c684d4da482642a1633ae6cf3\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the argument, but it is not beyond the ability of this Parliament to rectify that concern, anyway. That member perhaps perceives herself as becoming the new Minister\u2014I do not know; I will not go down that line. My apologies, Madam Chairperson, for digressing, but I just wanted to point that out, and to be consistent with the contributions that New Zealand First makes in regard to these bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI also agree with the previous speaker; we do not have any concern about the Supplementary Order Paper and the suggested amendments submitted by the Minister. In fact, we believe that the amendments actually give clarity to clause 82. I will also take the opportunity to make reference to the definitions in clause 11, \u201CMeaning of Te Roroa\u201D. As it reads, \u201C(1) Te Roroa\u2014(a) means the collective group composed of\u2014(i) individuals descended from 1 or more Te Roroa tupuna; and (ii) individuals who are members of the groups referred to in paragraph (c)(i);\u201D, which are \u201CTe Roroa, Ngati Kawa, Ngati Whiu, and Te Kuihi;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI refer to this clause, and do so because of the allegations made by One New Zealand about my right to participate in this debate. One of the original claimants on behalf of Te Roroa is a first cousin to my father; his mother and my grandmother are two sisters. So in view of the M\u0101ori perception of genealogy and relationships, that provision makes me a link by whakapapa to Te Roroa, but I am not a beneficiary in terms of this definition of who Te Roroa claimants are. I just want to clarify that point. Suffice it to say, New Zealand First has no difficulties in terms of Part 1 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b827cee701b44e4a7d980e7f2bd175c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b827cee701b44e4a7d980e7f2bd175c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Can members remember going to the dentist when they were kids? You know, they had those horrible dental nurses in schools\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217700e87a19746ccb7d6447d03cb87bc\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c7c16f14004f0fafe7746fda66a577\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not dental nurses but dental clinics\u2014sorry. And we used to have the feeling that we could either do things the easy way or the hard way. Well, we can do this bill the easy way, or do it the hard way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThere was a question by my colleague Chris Finlayson about how the ex gratia payment of $6 million impacts on the ratchet clauses in the Ng\u0101i Tahu and Tainui settlements. I am sure the brother-in-law has the calculator out right at this moment. But it is an interesting question that I think the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mita Ririnui, might want to explore, if he wants to go down the easy track. He might wish to focus his mind on that issue, as we move on this settlement\u2014and I congratulate the Government on moving at pace on other settlements and agreements in principle, and signing deeds of settlement, in the rush before the election. But the question remains of how, now that the quantum has increased, that has affected the total, dare I say, fiscal envelope or multi-year appropriations, and how it affects the ratchet clauses in the Ng\u0101i Tahu and Tainui settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ESo that is the easy way. The hard way is that we draw this process out a wee bit. And I would not want to do that. I am not known in this House to be a filibuster\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae392975a3734f6a88371588e244e5e0\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Spell it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8a56e66a3854d4ebb219467e87a6cfb\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: P-h \u2026 That is a serious question, and I hope the Minister can give us a steer. I am not expecting him to give us a policy statement on the quantum or on the Ng\u0101i Tahu and Tainui ratchet clauses, but I ask him whether there has been any thought on how it impacts on any other settlements and on the ratchet clauses in both those two settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022363eae2e45324e799353287c87c53058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022363eae2e45324e799353287c87c53058\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call just to make some comments on the observations that were made by our colleague across the Chamber, Pita Paraone, who, of course, and rightly so, always feels compelled to raise the issue of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, and I, in turn, always feel compelled to make some comment on his raising that issue. Of course, these claims are brought under the mandate or brief of the Waitangi Tribunal, which has to look at a claim to see whether it breaches the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. That notion or measurement is to be found in the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. As I say, it is the measure by which the tribunal must measure all the claims. So of course when we come to settle a claim, there has to be some acknowledgment in there that that claim has been well founded, in that there has been found to be a breach of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Aroha mai, I feel sometimes for New Zealand First and for our associates across the way, who still seem to be in the dark after all these years as to what the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224157810686af424facbd0a603ed0c3dc\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us! Tell us what they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e4cb69c1fa4394a9e7c120c7254d23\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, there is the principle of good faith\u2014the duty upon the Crown to negotiate with claimants in a spirit of partnership and good faith. Secondly, there is the principle of protection. I can go through these, but, really, I would have thought that after that party has been in Parliament this long, supporting settlements, as it does\u2014unlike ACT, which used to, and probably still does, oppose everything to do with Treaty settlements\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6b397b19cb4615bc8f06c62a9708c7\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Rodney\u2019s got the tan now. Rodney\u2019s got the spray-on tan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4cbf0776c30483ea80fcfa11a8a3d4b\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: That might make a difference as to whether ACT supports a Treaty settlement. It probably will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fb1efed72544152abcc3ed4b2d481d2\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a bad spray-on tan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d80aa3d0a6473fb3d448766ab281e9\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Bad or not, we wait with anticipation to see whether ACT will support this Treaty settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EBut coming back to New Zealand First, I say that I would have thought, for a party that considers itself, despite its numbers, a big party, equal to National and Labour, that after all this time someone there might have taken the time to comb through the Court of Appeal and Waitangi Tribunal decisions, because the principles are to be found in the judgments and the reports of both those organisations. As I say, I have talked about the principle of the Crown acting in good faith and in the spirit of partnership towards claimants. That is an underlying one. This settlement is meant to embody those principles, and that is why, earlier, I talked about the apology. That is why it is important that reference to the principles is here, so that we all know, and New Zealanders know, that, yes, this claim has been properly investigated, and, yes, a breach of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi has been found. That phrase was integrated into legislation back in 1975 by that member\u2019s relative, probably, the Hon Matiu Rata\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a3e89a92bd4a4fbe67e36a76b7685b\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe5c157a283e45ce91044be0793709f5\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes\u2014who came up with that phrase, because, as we know, the Treaty is in English and in M\u0101ori, and if we were to say \u201Cthe Treaty\u201D, people would ask which Treaty. So using the phrase \u201Cprinciples of the Treaty\u201D enables the tribunal to look at both versions and distil from both versions what the underlying principles, thoughts, and thinking of the signatories to the Treaty were at the time. So aroha mai to our colleague in New Zealand First. He should not worry; the principles are there. They are talked about constantly, particularly in the Waitangi Tribunal reports, because they have to be. The Waitangi Tribunal has to set out how it has found a claim to be well founded because it is in breach of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. So those principles are easily gleaned, if the member were to take the time, along with his party, to find them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 236 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to omit clause 14 and substitute new clause 14 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea342e571b164c35a840ddf473ab8b3a\u0022\u003EPart 2  Cultural Redress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000108\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 236 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000109\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000110\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002270c060d5a46a4cb5ba7bc9744bc3d621\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c8102ae606e4ab8a4804dedbfbdc2bc\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9cac54de4484d54bc48267a61663878\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ae8c42c10ce433abd9a8a2607bf5eb6\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022303f00d1949c4be088ecac98523ff094\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cc516f915034a0db911299e5b513dc9\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000117\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000118\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed1a007aa6424dfdb3f134a49e7961cc\u0022\u003EReal Estate Agents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a58e52bf6fdc468caf0bd52fb5b76f5d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00227ba684f9e7c24d76a9ad6cc36c9a3edd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ba684f9e7c24d76a9ad6cc36c9a3edd\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I have great pleasure in moving, That the Real Estate Agents Bill be now read a second time. The Real Estate Agents Bill has its origins with ordinary Kiwi consumers. They have written to me and to others in droves, expressing their frustration about how the current complaints and discipline regime is being operated by the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand. They are frustrated by the current regime\u2019s lack of accountability, openness, and transparency, and about its complete lack of independence from the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have also heard from many honest, decent, and honourable real estate agent professionals, who are tired of their reputation being tarnished by a few unscrupulous members\u2014more than a few, recently\u2014of the industry. Under the current system the only disciplinary body with any independence from the industry, and with any power to suspend or strike off registered agents and salespersons, is the Real Estate Agents Licensing Board. However, the board receives complaints only if they are referred to it by the Real Estate Institute itself and, indeed, this seldom happens. According to information provided to me by the institute, only 10 of the 583 public complaints it received between 2004 and 2007 were referred on to the licensing board. This bill will correct that situation by providing rigorous, robust protection for Kiwi consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe new authority will provide independent oversight of the industry. Where agents deliberately rip off consumers, the bill will provide appropriate sanctions and penalties. Most important, it will also provide an avenue for consumers to seek redress in the form of compensation. I have been criticised by some, both in this House and in other places, for exposing real estate agents who have ripped people off, but I make absolutely no apology for doing that. I have always said in every press statement I have made\u2014and they are on the record\u2014that the vast majority of people in this industry are honourable, fair-minded, good, professional, honest people. This Government will not allow, though, the reputation of the vast majority of agents, who are, as I have said, decent and professional, to be tarnished by those who abuse the trust of consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Justice and Electoral Committee received over 1,300 written submissions and heard directly from over 700 people. Nearly all, I have to say, were from the real estate industry, and I welcome the industry\u2019s impressive level of engagement. The committee also heard from consumers affected by the actions of unscrupulous real estate agents, and from Consumer New Zealand, which fully supports the aims and objectives of this bill. The committee has reported back to the House with recommendations that address the concerns that have been raised, and it has enhanced the bill by improving and clarifying certain provisions while not altering the key reforms therein. The Government supports those recommendations. I was pleased to note that the majority of submissions supported the new independent authority, and supported the enhanced protections for ordinary consumers as they seek to buy or sell their most valuable asset, their house. It was also pleasing to note the Real Estate Institute\u2019s recent comments on the bill. In a press statement on 30 July 2008 the president, Mr Cleland, stated: \u201CWe support the independent complaints authority and the increase in penalties.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House are determined to provide robust protection in this area for decent, hard-working Kiwi consumers. The question, though, is whether the National Party will continue to oppose consumer protection. The National Party, of course, did not do anything to improve the real estate industry whilst it was in Government, and it should be noted that National did not even support this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee so that New Zealand consumers and real estate industry members could have their say. The question is: why? Even now, when the Real Estate Institute itself has had somewhat of a positive change of heart in respect of this bill, I ask what the National Party will do now. Will it continue to support leaving consumers exposed as they put their biggest asset\u2014their house\u2014at risk, or are we about to witness yet another flip-flop from National? I sincerely hope that sense is prevailing over there and that it will be the latter option, but we will soon see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI turn now to the key recommendations made by the select committee. The committee has recommended amending the commencement date so that the Act will come fully into force 1 year after its enactment. I propose to amend this provision, through a Supplementary Order Paper, to 14 months after the Royal assent, which will allow more time for the establishment of the Real Estate Agents Authority and for the industry to gear up for these reforms. It has always been the Government\u2019s intention that the necessary industry knowledge and experience will be available\u2014that is common sense\u2014on the authority and the disciplinary tribunal, and I welcome the committee\u2019s recommendation that the bill be amended to specify industry representation on both that authority and tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EFor the avoidance of doubt, I intend to bring forward a further amendment through the Supplementary Order Paper, to make it explicit that for first-term appointments to the authority and the disciplinary tribunal, the Real Estate Institute will be consulted. I have reassessed the experience requirements for real estate industry licences and I intend to bring forward an amendment through the Supplementary Order Paper that will increase the requirements from 2 years\u2019 industry experience in the previous 10 years to 3 years\u2019 experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe committee is concerned that introducing a new, transparent complaints and disciplinary regime will lead to a surge in complaints. This may be the case. Consequently, it has recommended allowing the Real Estate Agents Authority to establish as many complaints assessment committees as will be necessary in order to ensure that complaints are investigated and expedited in a timely manner. The committee has also recommended that both the authority and the complaints assessment committees should be able to investigate allegations on their own initiative. This will allow proactive investigations where there are allegations of unsatisfactory conduct or misconduct, and I welcome that recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMany industry submitters supported strengthening the bill\u2019s compulsory continuing education requirements. The Government agrees with the committee\u2019s recommendation that the completion of ongoing continuing education requirements be a condition of licence renewals. This will raise industry standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOne of the major wins for consumers in this bill is the right to seek adequate redress. The committee has recommended that the disciplinary tribunal be able to award up to $100,000 in compensation. This reflects the significant financial harm that disreputable agents may inflict on consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EConcerns have been raised that the requirement for a review of the employment status for salespersons has the potential to create too much uncertainty within the industry at a time when it will be required to deal with a whole new regulatory regime. Therefore, I will put forward an amendment through the Supplementary Order Paper to remove this requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe committee has made improvements to provisions relating to the duties imposed on real estate agents. In particular, it has recommended that the ability to cancel sole agency agreements after 90 days should apply only to the sale of residential property, as commercial and rural properties typically take longer to sell. The committee has also recommended ensuring that the cooling-off period cannot be used to avoid paying an agent commission if the agent negotiates a sale during that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMany within the real estate industry have been concerned about the effectiveness of the auction provisions in the bill. After further consideration on this issue, and taking into account the steps already taken by the industry to address the risks posed to consumers when buying and selling real estate at auction, I intend to bring forward amendments through the Supplementary Order Paper that will remove from the bill the provisions regulating the conduct of auctions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I say that this bill has the protection of the consumer at its heart. Kiwi consumers, as they seek to buy or sell their most valuable asset\u2014their home\u2014have demanded a regulatory regime overseeing the process that they can be confident is fair, open, transparent, and accountable. They have demanded that. If things go wrong, then there should be a system they can rely on to deal effectively with rogue agents, and to compensate them for any losses. This Government has listened. It has listened to the very good recommendations of the committee and others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b342be2bba4e9ba83adad3156cb70b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: You have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daba1aa03c994d1ebac6280e4efb3f69\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The member should have a look at the press statements. The Real Estate Agents Bill will provide the protection and confidence that Kiwi consumers are demanding. It will also support good, honest agents, who do indeed\u2014as I have always said\u2014comprise the majority of this industry. The select committee process has added value to this bill. Its recommendations reflect the views of the majority of the committee, and I welcome them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thank the hundreds of submitters and the highly paid lobbyists, very expensive as they are, who made submissions to the committee and approached their task diligently. I also acknowledge and thank the Green Party and New Zealand First for their work and support in ensuring that this bill achieves the benchmark that has been set by our communities and consumers for openness, transparency, accountability, and independence in the real estate industry. I have much pleasure in commending the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002290d07530a989494b9f05adc44ee0c082\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d07530a989494b9f05adc44ee0c082\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Minister Clayton Cosgrove is certainly not Theodore Roosevelt, who used to say that he would walk softly and carry a big stick. This Minister yells and screams, but in the end carries a twig, because Supplementary Order Paper 243 indicates there will be many changes to this bill that will water it down and change it. I must say that many of the changes proposed make quite a lot of sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bada6b62e1a41e68a75a5a97995459b\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Will you support the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cde54829a714632b1cb4f964137aebd\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to that. I say to the Minister he should put some Sellotape over his mouth and sit there quietly and listen, because he may learn something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe first point I want to make is that I thought the Justice and Electoral Committee worked very well on this bill. I had some real concerns because of the number of submissions that we had received. As the Minister said, we received about 1,300. I thought it would be pretty chaotic to try to deal with all those submissions. But, generally, I thought the select committee worked very well indeed. We met in Auckland and in Wellington. We dealt with submitters by videoconference and also by telephone. By and large the submissions were very good. But I do say, and perhaps it is applicable not only to this bill but also to some other bills, that standard form submissions were generally most unhelpful. I did not derive much assistance at all from a standard form, 15-page submission that may have been generated in some head office. When I asked certain submitters particular questions on particular aspects of the submission I was disappointed to find on occasion they had not even read their own submission. My advice to submitters is that if they make submissions\u2014and we on select committees, as we all know, derive a great deal of benefit from the select committee process\u2014it is helpful to make the submissions reasonably short and focused on particular points. Standard form submissions were unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe chair of the select committee and the committee clerk entered into an arrangement whereby submitters were grouped together, and I thought that that procedure worked very well indeed. Generally there was good discussion and good debate as we teased through the various issues. At the end of the day, my concerns about the way in which the select committee would work given the number of submissions were not borne out. I thought it went pretty well indeed. Although it is late in election year and perhaps Lynne Pillay would faint if she heard praise from me, I would say I thought the chair did a reasonably good job, certainly in comparison with her performance over the Electoral Finance Bill, which, as the president of the Electoral Commission says, has a chilling effect this year on the electoral system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet me say something about the Real Estate Agents Bill. As the Minister said, it creates an independent real estate agent\u2019s authority. This body will be responsible for overseeing licensing, complaints, discipline, the general enforcement processes, and, importantly, providing information to consumers. The authority will have very wide investigative powers and widened powers to order penalties, and the Minister has mentioned some of those, and various other remedies. The bill creates an independent disciplinary tribunal to deal with serious cases referred to it by the authority, and in that respect the bill mirrors to a large extent the kind of procedures introduced to the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act. The authority will be able to cancel licences and to award compensation. The authority will represent complainants before the tribunal, and, importantly, establish a public register of real estate agents and sales people recording any breaches of standards, because that, of course, is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe bill removes certain regulatory functions from the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand, and removes the requirement for compulsory membership. It makes people convicted of dishonesty offences ineligible for licences. It increases entry requirements, and requires licensees to undergo certain professional development training. That is the kernel of the bill, and the National Party certainly is in favour of improvements to the Real Estate Act, but it continues to have some very grave concerns about this legislation. I will go through those now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe first concerns the transitional period, which, as the Minister said, is set out in clause 2. Certain sections come into force on the day after the date on which the bill receives the Royal assent. The rest of the Act comes into force on a date that is 1 year after the date it receives the Royal assent. The Minister indicated this morning that Supplementary Order Paper 243, which he will introduce, will extend that period from 12 to 14 months. I still think that is too short. The Lawyers and Conveyancers Act was passed in 2006, and it had a 2-year transitional provision. It is only now coming into force, following the intensive work undertaken by the New Zealand Law Society. When dealing with new codes of conduct for barristers and solicitors and new structural arrangements that that legislation introduces, and so on, it is no easy task. There will be major structural changes to the way in which the real estate industry is to be regulated on the day after this Act comes into force. We continue to maintain our concern about the relatively short transitional period, especially compared with the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second concern we have relates to the bureaucracy, especially the complaints assessment committees, the costs of which we are concerned will be passed on to the consumer. We have no problem in principle with the idea of complaints assessment committees, but there are a great number of complaints that do not even get to the threshold because they are so minor. Our concern is that the cost of setting up what could be three or four complaints assessment committees will be excessive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe third concern we have, which came through many of the submissions before the select committee, is that property management is not included, although, in fairness to the Minister, it was acknowledged that there is an agreement to review and to address issues of property management at a later date. It could well be that will proceed fairly quickly, although I do not think the Minister addressed the issue in his second reading speech, so that needs to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe fourth point is that the Minister made a couple of sensible comments about auctions, and certain provisions in Supplementary Order Paper 243. I must confess that in my quick reading of it I had not picked it up, but certain provisions of the Supplementary Order Paper will delete references to auction requirements. I think we are talking about clauses 136 to 141. It removes provisions relating to auction requirements. I think it is high time that the Auctioneers Act 1928 was reformed, so perhaps I will look at that more closely in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFifthly, the experience required for a licence has been increased to 3 years in the previous 10 years, and we are not so sure that that is the right way to go. We think it should be 3 years in the previous 5 years, but we can look at that at the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThere are still problems with this bill. I have problems with the ability of lawyers to be engaged in real estate work. I think lawyers should be lawyers and real estate agents should be real estate agents. Lawyers get themselves into trouble when they start mixing professions in this way, but that is not a party view\u2014it is a personal view\u2014and that will probably go through anyway. It is contained also in the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, but it is not good. So some concerns with this bill remain, particularly in regard to the relatively short transitional period. Although the bill is greatly improved on the bill as introduced to the House, and although the select committee certainly did a great deal of work on it, the bill remains inadequate, so National will continue its opposition to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224106bcc2a8224ad09290f19b39b15672\u0022\u003ECommittees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae3afca9bd9c4a27baade5a6de98cfca\u0022\u003EBusiness of Select Committees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022668b85b6478f4940926d028e042ce10c\u0022\u003EMeetings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe1a5ec358ed4e51aef572d496a50c40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe1a5ec358ed4e51aef572d496a50c40\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that, notwithstanding Standing Order 195(1)(c)\u2014and this is pursuant to a unanimous agreement of the Privileges Committee this morning\u2014the Privileges Committee have the power to meet on the evening of Wednesday, 10 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a097e3e0c494646b21fe78e7dd230a9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebc7b5ffbe5e4c67b6904adc9c010a64\u0022\u003EReal Estate Agents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea86bf9ed418484bbdc3861b7a1a4b64\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000159\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022901a9dded53a41ccab11036a78f4a252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022901a9dded53a41ccab11036a78f4a252\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a brief call in the second reading debate of this extremely important and useful piece of consumer protection legislation, the Real Estate Agents Bill. The purpose of the bill is a very good one. It is to deliver on the Government\u2019s promise to bring accountability, transparency, and openness to the real estate sector, and those three things are sorely needed. Legislation has been in place for some time, and it needs to be updated with the interests of the consumer in mind. This legislation does that. It establishes a very good independent complaints system, it will protect consumers, and it will support honest real estate professionals, who constitute the vast majority of the real estate industry. The bill will put an end to the industry\u2019s self-regulation. It introduces a range of important new consumer protection measures, including compensation for consumers who have not been well served by the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe Government believes that reform of the real estate industry is sorely needed. Buying a house may be the biggest single financial decision people make in their lifetime, and they need to have full confidence in the professionals who help them make that decision. In that regard, this legislation is part of the suite of consumer protection measures that has been so ably pioneered by this Government, including Ministers such as Judith Tizard and Lianne Dalziel. One thinks of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Amendment Bill (No 3), which brought in prudential supervision requirements for non-bank deposit takers, and the financial providers and financial advisers legislation, which is about to be reported back to the House from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which I have the honour to chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the robustness of the select committee process. I would like to pay tribute to the Green Party and the New Zealand First Party, because they played an incredibly responsible role in supporting a fair process at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI would also like to thank those who made submissions to the select committee. This point was touched on by the earlier speaker. Really, we were, I think, in a position where the process could have gone either way. There were intemperate debate and anger involved in the process following the introduction of the bill. Lynne Pillay, my Labour colleague, chaired the committee with enormous sensitivity. I remember the hearing we held in Auckland, which many, many members of the industry attended. They were grouped very logically as far as their submissions to the committee were concerned. They were treated with respect, and they responded in kind, so that we got the maximum benefit from what they had come to say to the committee. I think they went away feeling that they had a proper hearing from us, which is a very important part of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn that regard, I note there has been some criticism of some of the submitters. It has just been said that some of them simply filled out a standard form and spoke to it. Well, I think we have to make allowances for the fact that, to many people, the select committee process is a bit of an alien one. It is not necessarily the easiest one to engage in. I think that those of us in Parliament who are used to dealing with the process every day underestimate the mystery that ordinary people sometimes encounter when they want to interact with Parliament\u2019s processes. Yes, it is true that some people filled out a standard form submission, and that when they were asked particularly technical questions\u2014cross-examined\u2014by certain members, they did find it a bit hard to respond. But those of us who took the select committee process seriously tried to move beyond the written form submission and talk to those who came before the committee about their experience of the industry, and tried to work out how we could deliver back to the House the best bill that it was in our power to deliver. I think we have done that. The report of the committee speaks for itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI would also praise the measures that are set out in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 243, because I think that, taken with the select committee report, they really do comprise a suite of measures that will make this industry into one that consumers can have real confidence in, and one that the vast majority of real estate agents out there who are honest and hard-working can also feel a great deal of confidence in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI thank the officials for their assistance. It was always extremely timely and extremely helpful, and when assistance was required on tricky technical matters it was really on point. I will speak a little bit more about that later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to express a bit of regret at the position that seems to be being set out by the National Party on this legislation. I have had a look at National\u2019s minority report, such as it is, in the commentary on the bill, and it is quite apparent, when we look at the Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister has tabled, that every substantive concern raised by the National Party in that minority report has been addressed. It is simply not right to say that an increased transitional provision of 14 months for the hard stuff, if you like, in the legislation is not long enough. It makes no sense to compare the real estate industry with the legal profession, and any comparison between the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act and the Real Estate Agents Bill is inapt. We are really talking apples and oranges here. It is quite clear that 14 months\u2019 lead-in time for some of these complex matters is more than enough as far as reforming the industry is concerned. Consumers should not have to wait any longer than that, and it is a real shame that the National Party wants to make them do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs to the complaint that this is bureaucracy gone wild, that is just nonsense, as well. I hope that those who espouse that excuse are ashamed of themselves. There is no bureaucracy gone mad here; there is simply an adequate complaints mechanism being set up to make sure that consumers have the protection they need. Yes, it will cost a bit of money, but probably not a whole lot more than what the current system costs. The costs that will be passed on to those who participate in real estate agent transactions will not be much greater, but we will have a far better system to protect those who participate in those transactions. For anyone to say that that is not a desirable goal is a real shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFinally, with regard to the issue of property managers, as the previous speaker acknowledged, the Minister will put in place a review. We heard some evidence on that point. I think that the select committee members by and large were persuaded that there was merit in looking further at the issue of whether property managers should come within a comprehensive regime. There are issues of scope in terms of including them in this legislation, but there will be a calm and measured review of that issue. That is appropriate, I think, given the evidence we heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EHere we are, with this minority report from the National Party, which maintains its opposition to what is very good consumer legislation. It is spurious opposition\u2014it really is. National must be a party that does not actually care much about the interests of consumers; it maintains opposition just for opposition\u2019s sake. It is just like the so-called six principles for opposing the emissions trading scheme\u2014absolute nonsense. This is very good legislation, and it ought to be progressed with speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00225ad9b261c2654645966e5ce04755f458\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ad9b261c2654645966e5ce04755f458\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to rise and speak in the second reading debate on the Real Estate Agents Bill. When the industry itself wants reform and modernisation\u2014it has been asking for reform for some 10 years\u2014when all the parties, to a greater or lesser extent, and in a reasonably non-partisan way, support such an opportunity for positive change to the industry, and when consumers want reform and modernisation of the industry, how, then, can such a meal be made out of this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe bill went to the Justice and Electoral Committee for scrutiny, and I appreciated the opportunity to sit on that select committee during that scrutiny and certainly enjoyed that experience to a certain extent. The bill went to the select committee for scrutiny under the Minister\u2019s banner of vilification of an industry, of his having to \u201Cdrag land sharks kicking and screaming into the spotlight\u201D and to \u201Cdrop the hammer on them\u201D. I suppose we then have to wonder whether it is any wonder that such a meal has been made of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe select committee process was as expected. We had many submissions. Some submitters were given a couple of minutes; some were given 20 minutes or even more. I do not need to elaborate further on this for people to be able to guess which submitters were given a considerably longer time to submit and which ones understandably felt short-changed. However, I echo the concerns raised by my colleague Chris Finlayson regarding the standard form submissions. They were not particularly helpful, especially when it appeared that some submitters had merely ticked the boxes without even knowing the substance of their own submission. But after such vilification, one can understand their concern to protect their livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is pleasing that we have a Supplementary Order Paper produced by the Minister that is certainly an improvement in certain respects. There are some 70-plus amendments. Admittedly, it is not of the scale of the emissions trading scheme bill, which had over 700 amendments; and, again, it is not of the scale of the meal breaks bill, which had a sneaky amendment not even related to the original bill. But we do now have an improved piece of potential legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear that National supports, absolutely, the purpose of this bill: \u201Cto promote and protect the interest of consumers \u2026 and to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work\u201D by \u201Cregulating agents\u201D, \u201Craising industry standards\u201D, and \u201Cproviding accountability through a disciplinary process that is independent, transparent, and effective.\u201D We support absolutely the purpose of this bill. We welcome an update of the real estate regulatory framework, and so does the industry. We welcome the need for strong consumer protection and strong consumer confidence, and so does the industry. However, what we do not welcome is an unworkable, bureaucratic regime that will add costs to consumers without enhancing their confidence in an industry that, like most industries, does have some bad players but where the majority are not bad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis reform should have been welcomed by all. It should have brought the real estate industry with it into the 21st century. After all, that is what everybody wants. But instead, this is a missed opportunity. For no matter what reason can be attributed to how this bill has been handled, it is a missed opportunity. Certainly, some of our original misgivings have been addressed, both in the report back from the select committee and also in the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014such as concerning the removal of the 5-year review of the employment status of salespersons. But other misgivings have not been addressed. Property management is still excluded, and when we look at the failures of Blue Chip and others, it makes one wonder why it has still been excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783bdffc085741be86357494d9000827\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s outside the scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022793291a11d6d470e906403602d3e6478\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that a review has been promised, but this is a bill about real estate, and property management is an integral part of real estate. This is a bill that is actually tailored to residential real estate, and even then it does not really take into account commercial real estate, industrial properties, and property management. We accept that property management may be outside the scope of the bill, but then again, KiwiSaver was outside the scope of the meal breaks bill. But we think it is somewhat ridiculous to have a real estate bill that excludes one of the very ingredients of the real estate industry, namely that of property management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EReal estate involves not only buying and selling property; an important part is property management. This Government appears to believe that property managers pose less risk than real estate salespeople. The institute has informed us that it believes that one in five complaints relates to property management groups, and we heard throughout the submission process that the two latest claims\u2014in fact, the only two claims for quite some time\u2014on the fidelity fund have related to property management, not real estate agency sales work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBack in 2003 the Real Estate Institute advised the Minister that it was concerned about property managers operating outside the trust account control and audit regime of licensed real estate agents. Now, they are still concerned, and those property managers have carte blanche to carry on their business without any checks or balances, without any trust account control, and without any audit\u2014whether a spot audit or a regular audit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EProperty management involves holding significant funds in an account. Hundreds of millions of dollars pass through bank accounts of property managers. What happens to missing rent moneys? Well, the institute, under this bill, has no jurisdiction to deal with any complaints about missing rent moneys. There is no requirement to hold the moneys in a trust account. There is no fidelity fund in the event of misappropriation. As the institute itself stated: \u201CIf residential property managers are not covered by the new regime, gaps in the current laws will leave consumers vulnerable. If anything goes wrong the only recourse for consumers may be via the courts. If residential letting agents and property managers are not covered, they would not have to meet any educational and practice standards, comply with any regulations concerning the holding of money in trust accounts, and there would be no efficient recourse for consumers with complaints as the authority and the tribunal would not have the jurisdiction to hear or decide on any complaints concerning the letting or management of property. This is contrary to the purpose of the bill, which is consumer protection.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E The second issue we have some concern about is the bureaucracy imposed by this bill. We have noted before the concerning parallels of this latest bureaucratic proposed system with the Department of Building and Housing. Consumers can still be protected without having to bear the costs of senseless bureaucracy. We are not convinced that this balance has been achieved. The industry will not bear the costs; the costs will be handed down to the consumer, and housing affordability will get even more difficult. Consumers will simply have to pay more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EActually, if this bill were really about consumer protection, it would include property management, and it would not impose even more costs on the consumer. And if the Minister really were listening, and he really were concerned about consumer protection, then the bill would have required real estate salespersons to have more experience rather than less. The original bill required 2 years\u2019 experience out of the previous 10 years, and the industry itself wanted 3 years out of the previous 5 years. The Minister\u2019s amendment has increased it to 3 years out of the previous 10 years, yet even the industry itself preferred more experience because it, too, is concerned about consumer protection. I would have thought that if this Government really were interested in consumer protection, then that would be a very simple improvement to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EConcern has also been expressed that the transitional period prescribed in order to implement this legislation is not sufficient. It was originally 12 months. The Minister has very generously increased it by a mere 2 months, to 14 months. The institute itself has suggested 2 years. I think it is appropriate to make comparisons to the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, which prescribed 2 years. When we are changing the way an industry is to operate, as is intended under this bill, it is vital that sufficient transitional time is given for it to be able to actually implement those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESo we have a bill that, sadly, is just another missed opportunity\u2014a bill intended to protect the consumer and to give the consumer confidence. It has been hijacked by hyperbole and political posturing. Regretfully, whilst we absolutely support the purpose of the bill, we do not believe that it properly addresses the issue of consumer confidence. Therefore, we cannot support it at its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002235b3a8ea9aab49f0a1c1510fc9c3b79a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235b3a8ea9aab49f0a1c1510fc9c3b79a\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. On behalf of New Zealand First, I stand to make a contribution to the second reading of the Real Estate Agents Bill. We certainly support this bill. It is about bringing more accountability, transparency, and openness to the real estate sector while at the same time establishing an independent complaints system to protect consumers and provide support for real estate agents. The bill replaces the Real Estate Agents Act 1976, and I think it is timely. Some people will say the bill is overdue, and I tend to agree. I think it addresses some of the concerns that come from having on our statute book legislation that is so old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAlthough some people have been very critical of the real estate profession, in my view the profession is an honourable one\u2014one that is under some duress here in New Zealand as a consequence of a depressed market brought about by high interest rates and other economies. However, this profession is not exempt from having amongst its number\u2014and I am glad to say it is limited to a very small minority\u2014those who have brought it into disrepute. I suspect that because of that small minority, we heard from a number of submitters who expressed their concerns to us that the present Act was inadequate in meeting their concerns. I acknowledge the Justice and Electoral Committee, which heard these submissions. I understand it received more than 1,300 submissions. Just over 600 of those were heard personally by the committee, or by video link. I especially want to say to the committee that it has done a fine job. The report it brought back to the House, I think, addressed many of the issues that submitters were concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe report back suggests a number of changes, and I am glad to see that the Minister has taken it upon himself to make the necessary amendments by way of Supplementary Order Paper 243, and that he has also given some consideration to the concerns that my colleagues and I had about the bill. These include the points of amendment regarding the rescinding, the requirement to review the employment status of sales persons, the rescinding of the decision to regulate the conduct of auctions, the experience criteria required before agents or branch managers are entitled to have their licences raised from 2 out of 10 years to 3 out of 10 years, and the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand being consulted on first-term appointments to the authority and disciplinary tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI think those changes may give some relief to the present leadership of the Real Estate Institute in terms of the concerns it expressed during this whole process being taken on board. I know there has been some exchange of views between the principals of the institute and the Minister, but without their compromising their positions, I think. Both parties have agreed that the protection of the consumer and the strengthening of accountability is the most important thing that comes out of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI know that the Real Estate Institute might still have some concerns, but I think the bill goes a long way towards not only giving back to the consumers more confidence in the institute but also giving a sense of security to members of the New Zealand public who may need the services of the real estate profession now and into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ESome comment has been made about the fact that property management has not been covered by this bill. I agree with the select committee that the issue of property management was outside the scope of the bill. However, the Minister has indicated that a review will be made in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce2e9e18e6e4621b4aa01f880edd55a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Coming at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276d6c5d042e24a91b29c18ce3cba4146\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: At the same time as the bill\u2014OK. The Minister has recognised that as a very important issue. That is important because on any one day of the week property managers hold excessive amounts of money on behalf of both tenants and landlords. Given the financial stress that New Zealand is placed under at this time\u2014I know that that may sound exaggerated, but the fact is that we have a group of people holding funds that belong to other people\u2014we need to seriously consider the security and the safety of those funds. New Zealand First will support the Real Estate Agents Bill at its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022047b7da4f47242d4b366e31921747c7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022047b7da4f47242d4b366e31921747c7e\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Real Estate Agents Bill and associated Government amendments through all final stages in the House today. We were aware from the start of the contentious nature of aspects of this new law. How could we avoid it, given the powerful and effective voices of real estate agents and auctioneers, and the somewhat combative statements of Minister Clayton Cosgrove in the earlier stages of the process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe consideration of the bill by the Justice and Electoral Committee was intense but informative, and I would like to acknowledge all of the more than 1,300 submitters for the effort they put into participating in this particular democratic process. I would like especially to thank Barfoot and Thompson in Auckland for showing several of us on the committee around its operations, so that we could get a better feel for aspects of the sales, human resources, accounting, and auctioning side of the business. The complexities of those backroom functions are not normally visible to a vendor or a purchaser\u2014my only contact with the industry in the past being in that role, albeit on a number of occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOne of the key achievements of this bill will be the establishment of a new Real Estate Agents Authority, which will have the power, among other things, to investigate complaints from people about things like real or perceived conflicts of interest on the part of agents, commissions and fees, and generally shoddy or inadequate practices. The new authority will investigate complaints on behalf of the consumer for free, and is an independent body with the ability to set penalties and award compensation. It will also be responsible for administering the licensing system for real estate agents, setting standards, establishing fees and levies, and providing information for consumers. The Greens believe that having all those functions carried out by a statutory organisation independent of the Real Estate Institute, unlike the existing situation, will inspire confidence in all those for whom buying or selling a house is often the biggest financial decision of their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis bill also incorporates the establishment of a separate Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal, whose functions will be to deal with matters referred to it by the complaints assessment committee\u2014a committee appointed, in turn, by the new Real Estate Agents Authority. During the course of the Justice and Electoral Committee consideration, we heard many concerns from industry submitters about their fears that the representation on those new bodies would not include people with a long track record of working in the sector\u2014people who would hold the confidence of agents and their professional association. This concern was shared by the Greens and by other parties, and we have been pleased to see improvements to the bill in this regard. During the select committee process we supported changes that mean that, firstly, the Minister will be required to appoint at least two members of the Real Estate Agents Authority who are licensees or former licensees, and, secondly, in relation to the disciplinary tribunal, at least one member must be a licensee. In addition, there is a Government Supplementary Order Paper before the House that will further amend the bill so that the Minister now is required to consult the Real Estate Institute when making the first appointment of licensees and former licensees to the authority and the disciplinary tribunal. The Green Party has backed all these changes because we think it critical that the expertise of real estate agents and their own professional body should be brought to bear, if these reforms are to have credibility with the industry, and so that the reforms will find support among those whose standards and quality of work we are expecting to improve as a result of these measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnother area of much contention during consideration of this bill was the proposal to review the employment status of sales people after 5 years. The Greens had supported this proposal because we have ongoing concerns about the exploitation and low pay of some vulnerable workers and contractors within the industry. However, a Government amendment will remove the relevant 5-year review clause. Although we will be supporting the change, we also hope that anyone working in the industry who has concerns over his or her employment or contracting conditions, or lack of them, will not hesitate to avail himself or herself of the remedies available now through existing employment law. At a time when the industry is seeing a major shake-out as a result of the downturn in the housing market, it is more important than ever that the employees and contractors who remain are treated well and are able to stand up for themselves, with my concern here being especially for some back-office people, as well as some agents, who run the risk of carrying the can financially for a sector that is going through difficult times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe whole area of auctioneering was another difficult issue for the select committee. As the auctioneers who made submissions to us quickly found out, this is not an aspect of the housing market with which I and, I think, some other MPs on the committee had any familiarity whatsoever. I was struggling to grasp what the purpose of the original changes to the auction system were in relation to the rest of the bill, especially after receiving repeated assurances that after some admittedly shonky episodes in the past, there are now enough safeguards in place in the auction process to protect the ethics and the interests of all involved. Although I think perhaps it might have been a good idea to find a way to enshrine or append an auctioneer\u2019s code of ethics to the legislation, in the meanwhile the Greens support the proposed amendment, which will leave things with the status quo in regard to auctions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOne other matter of major dispute during our dealing with this bill was the question of whether property managers could or should be included in the legislation. I was convinced by numerous submitters that it would have been better if we could incorporate property managers within the legislation\u2014for example, through regulation of activities such as leasing, letting, collection of rentals, and so on\u2014as this area of work is also a key part of the real estate sector and, in fact, often forms part of the operation of real estate firms themselves as well as other firms. However, in the end there was clear advice to the committee that to try to amend the bill to include property managers was outside its scope. The Green Party therefore welcomes the commitment the Government has made to review with some urgency the regulation of property management in a way that will be coordinated to be simultaneous with the commencement of this bill. The fact that the commencement of most of the provisions of the bill will be extended out from 1 year to 14 months should also mean that this review, and resulting legislation, will have time to happen effectively and well, in full consultation with all concerned. I trust that, whatever form our next Government takes, that commitment about property managers will be actioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Real Estate Agents Bill got off to a really rocky start, and I think it was unfortunate that such important legislation for consumers and for all stakeholders in the real estate area became more of a political battlefield than was really necessary. I believe that the reforms contained in this legislation are necessary and well worked through, and that all the MPs on the committee listened hard to the many concerns expressed to us, including issues beyond those I have had time to deal with today. I was particularly pleased, after earlier episodes, to see a media release from the Real Estate Institute on 30 July this year that welcomed the new bill with amendments and stated: \u201CWe are committed to working with the legislators to ensure that the final result is the best consumer legislation possible.\u201D I think that is a commendable attitude on the part of the institute, and hope it is one that will be shared by all parties in this House, and by all involved in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe have seen, and will undoubtedly continue to see, examples of rip-offs, cons, shabby treatment of customers, and exploitation of workers in the industry. However, it will be in the best interests of everyone if the reforms enacted here are carried out with goodwill and commitment on all sides, so that we see a steady improvement in quality, accountability, and protection for all concerned. As I said on an earlier occasion, this bill is about justice not only being done but being seen to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI thank everyone who has had some role in getting the bill to this stage, including our committee chair, Lynne Pillay; Minister Clayton Cosgrove; and all the submitters. But I would also like to say a special thankyou to the hard-working Government officials and select committee staff for all their work, because they really had quite a hard time of it, I have to say, during the select committee process. I believe they did a fantastic job on very difficult and complex legislation, and I thank them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00223c65301448a54066ad58300b50e4f141\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c65301448a54066ad58300b50e4f141\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. It could not be a better time to be introducing a new regulatory framework for the real estate industry to help it shape up to the expectations of the consumer client base that it services. Statistics from the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand revealed a dramatic reduction in residential sale volume over the year end. Sales registered in July 2008 were down by a massive 33 percent. It would be simplistic to suggest that the Real Estate Agents Bill will single-handedly reverse a perilous economic downturn, but then again one never knows what may turn the tide in encouraging homeowners to take a gamble on the current market. What we do know is that concerns with issues such as misleading representation, poor contractual advice, and mishandled funds have been making more and more New Zealanders risk-averse to the real-life monopoly board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESuch was the level of concern, in fact, that some 1,328 submissions were received from the public. This in itself should warrant this bill being accorded particular attention, to facilitate the smooth passage of law in the most efficient time possible. However, when we think about the foreshore and seabed legislation, which received 3,946 written submissions and 234 oral presentations, we find that that process was not given serious and responsible attention, so let us hope that the net is cast differently for this Real Estate Agents Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe impact of any legislative changes to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work must not be underestimated. An analysis of the number of New Zealand computers visiting real estate websites found an average of 325,000 sessions per week. As of July 2008 there were 60,150 residential properties for sale on the market, being put up for offer by approximately 1,500 real estate agents and over 20,000 sales people, so it is a huge industry and it requires that we take seriously the importance of consumer protection in real estate transactions. This bill is about protecting and promoting the interests of consumers in these transactions. That is a worthy ideal and one that we hope will be taken up as a priority by all parties in this House, and it is beginning to look that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere has been much said about the need to regulate agents, managers, and salespeople to ensure that consumers receive a quality service from an agency that adheres to industry standards. There is no denial that an upgrade has been sorely needed. The 1976 Act, for instance, included, as a maximum penalty, that the institute could impose a fine no greater than $750. But, more significantly, there had already been moves afoot within the industry to upskill and improve. The Real Estate Institute had itself realised the urgent need for consumer protection and had contracted none other than consumer affairs advocate David Russell to carry out its own review of its internal code of ethics and rules of practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis bill, then, emphasises moves already in place to enhance industry standards and to provide accountability through a disciplinary process. The changes that will be made to an operational code of conduct will ensure that any progress is independent, transparent, and effective. Those are all values that we, as the independent voice of M\u0101ori in this Parliament, are adamant must be upheld in all spheres of Government, including this House. Consumer New Zealand outlined this case clearly to the Justice and Electoral Committee. It told the committee that a significant number of complaints fielded by its advisory service came from people who have had problems with real estate agents. For too long, people have had to accept quite a poor service from real estate agents and operators, even though I would say also that there are some very good real estate people. The legislation will level the playing field and allow consumers to take action if they have been poorly treated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIt was pleasing to see the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand giving support to the reforms, and its agreement that professionalism will be enhanced and consumers protected, through lifting industry standards. It particularly supported the creation of an independent and transparent complaints and disciplinary process. A key initiative put forward by this bill is the recommendation to amend the functions of the Real Estate Agents Authority, particularly ensuring that there is consultation with the sector. So we are pleased to see the call from so many of the submissions from real estate agents has been taken up and that the membership of the authority and of the Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal will be broadened to ensure that industry expertise is represented. We support also the move to ensure that agents who employ independent contractors are liable for their actions as if a contractor were an employee. That will give better protection to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EHowever, there are a couple of areas that we believe require further work as the bill proceeds through the House. The first of these was presented by the Whitireia Community Law Centre. Its view was that consumers faced with detailed agency contracts and complex statutory rights need far more than \u201Ceducational information\u201D as provided for in the bill, to assist them in understanding their rights to make a complaint. Consumer advocacy should be recognised as an important way of maintaining industry standards and setting in place processes to achieve client care. As a corollary to this, the Whitireia Community Law Centre also recommended that the functions of the authority should be expanded to include funding negotiation, and conciliation or mediation of consumer complaints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe second issue is the contentious one of property management. This is an area of special relevance to M\u0101ori. The M\u0101ori Party is, of course, aware that the relatively low M\u0101ori homeownership rate would suggest a relatively high M\u0101ori renting rate. We know that 56 percent of the M\u0101ori population are not in owner-occupied dwellings, as opposed to 31 percent of non-M\u0101ori. In real numbers, two-thirds of our population do not own their residence. The importance of having an effective oversight of the entire industry is crucial. In effect, whether one is renting or owning is irrelevant. The key thing is that the process is transparent, and, of course, that all steps have been taken to ensure that people are not exploited by unscrupulous traders or misleading representation. To this effect, we will be looking with interest at any Supplementary Order Papers that may come into the House at the Committee stage, which may address the issue of property management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are happy to support the bill at this stage, in that we support any developments that can lift standards and achieve better protection for New Zealanders in dealing with real estate agents. We join with the Green Party in commending the officials for the way in which this bill has been managed at select committee. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5c75c79adb247efaa721f460fc24d3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5c75c79adb247efaa721f460fc24d3a\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future will be opposing this Real Estate Agents Bill as being unnecessary and insidious. It is unnecessary because the concerns that it seeks to deal with\u2014namely, bad performance by real estate agents\u2014could have been dealt with by two key amendments to the 1976 Act, which this bill repeals. Firstly, the provision relating to the maximum fine\u2014$750\u2014could have been substantially increased to bear much more relationship to today\u2019s realities. Secondly, we could have actually, for the first time in 30 years, appointed the regional disciplinary committees that the 1976 Act established. That would have given some teeth to the concern, and would have made this legislation completely unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut it is more serious than that. This legislation is also insidious, because the real message that it sends is that industry sectors, be they the real estate sector or any other industry sector, are now on notice from the Government that statutory regulation of their activities is just round the corner. For the last 20-odd years in this country we have put the onus on industry sectors to self-regulate, to self-administer. Now the Government is turning that on its head and saying we are moving back down the path of, essentially, a Government takeover of regulation of those industry sectors. Here is the rub: the costs of that administration will be borne by the consumers. Young homeowners buying their first home will not have any greater protection as a result of this bill\u2019s passing; they will face increased costs from the cost of administration of the new bureaucracy that is being established, ostensibly to give them greater protection than they already have. It is a nonsense and it is a con.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut the whole way in which this bill has been handled reeks of those two comments. I heard, on 30 July this year, an announcement in the media that agreement had been reached with New Zealand First over the content of the Real Estate Agents Bill, and that it would proceed as a result of that agreement. Then there was a statement from the Real Estate Institute welcoming the changes that had been made. I was somewhat perplexed, and immediately contacted the institute to find out what had been agreed, only to be told two things. First, the institute did not know of, had not seen, and had not been party to any of the discussions about, the amendments to this bill, but thought it appropriate to make a conciliatory statement. Second, the institute\u2019s understanding was that the discussions between New Zealand First and the Government came down, in the end, to a real estate agent in Tauranga who is known to the former member for Tauranga offering some advice and some drafting, which became the basis of the amendments, which at that stage were not known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis House can draw its own conclusions about the insidious tie of relationships between external parties and people within New Zealand First, and what might well have been transacted as a result of that. That is for another place; I will not go there. But I will make the observation that it was not until 2 September, over a month later, that the Minister actually tabled the amendments that were being sought to be made. So we had the ludicrous situation of the Justice and Electoral Committee completing its work and reporting the bill back to the House, a political deal then being struck somewhere else, and the outcome of that deal being announced a month or more after the announcement that the agreement had been struck. That does not give any confidence to anybody about the credibility of this process, let alone the worth and vitality of the legislation that is being passed. This is not about a better deal for consumers in terms of their interactions with real estate agents; this is all about satisfying the political bluster and the bullying that we heard from the Minister in the lead-up to it. In the old Mike Moore language, every clich\u00E9 known to man is being trotted out by \u201CMini-Mike\u201D to justify this sort of thing. That is not the basis on which to make law; it simply makes a farce of this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me turn to the next issue: the question of property management. I have heard it said right throughout this debate that property management could not be dealt with within the context of this bill because it was outside the scope of it. I want to refer to a case that was disposed of by the Real Estate Agents Licensing Board in June of this year. It was presided over by the Hon Bill Jeffries, a former Labour Minister of Justice\u2014and a very good one. It involved Paul Ronald John Romanos, trading as Paul Romanos Real Estate, and it was brought under section 94 of the Real Estate Agents Act, and was accompanied by a section 98 application, and one or two other provisions of section 33, as well. The upshot of that case was that Mr Romanos was struck off as a real estate agent. His licence was cancelled because of misappropriation of some $44,000 relating to a body corporate of which he was the property manager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ETo suggest that dealing with property management is outside the scope of this bill is ludicrous when the Real Estate Agents Licensing Board already, within the provisions of the Act that is being repealed, deals with matters relating to the conduct of real estate agents who trade as property managers. I find it incredible that what is happening here is that, in effect, very shady operators like Mr Romanos and his company are being protected by the absence of reference to property management in this bill. It is no consolation to people for us to say that it is down for another review; the Romanoses of this world will continue to rip off their clients in the interim, and all the brave words from the Minister about land sharks, and every other ridiculous phrase that he used, look absolutely hollow when we see that this type of behaviour is not addressed but implicitly condoned in this new bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to know what the status of hearings by the Real Estate Agents Licensing Board of similar complaints will be in the wake of the passage of this legislation. Does it simply cease to be? Is it overtaken by the new, Government-imposed statutory agency? What other complaints in train at the moment about property managers will be left to die and to falter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThat example proves the nonsense of this legislation. This is not about a better deal for real estate agents and their clients. This is not about protecting the public interest. This is about, as the Minister so aptly said right at the beginning, bringing the hammer down; this is vengeance politics. If he were really concerned about the battlers on \u201CStruggle Street\u201D\u2014I am sure he used that phrase\u2014whom he professes concern for, then he would have amended the 1976 Act and he would have done it over a year ago. The great need for change\u2014the urgency of it\u2014to prevent these poor people from being exploited and ripped off looks incredibly hollow when we see that it has taken us over a year to get to that point, and when we see that two simple amendments to the primary Act would have dealt with the concerns that were expressed, would have ensured that the fewer than 100 out 19,000 real estate agents each year against whom complaints are lodged would be able to be disposed of or to be disciplined adequately, and would have reinstated public confidence in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis bill is a mighty big sledgehammer to crack a very small nut, and the sour taste in the mouth that the nut leaves is that the poor, long-suffering consumer will yet again bear the cost of this ministerial obsession. This is not the way to make law; this is appalling legislation, and it deserves to be opposed with vigour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00221a6658bc608c4eef96d848052b48fcc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a6658bc608c4eef96d848052b48fcc6\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to stand and speak in support of the Real Estate Agents Bill. Had the previous speaker been on the select committee, he would have listened to the submissions\u2014the compelling submissions\u2014about people who have had really bad experiences in the industry and how they were really not well treated in terms of seeing complaints handled and upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EFirstly, I thank the officials who have worked incredibly hard on this legislation, because the very constructive submissions that we heard had a number of themes and the officials were able to give us very sound advice on them, and amendments were made in the Justice and Electoral Committee to ensure that the issues raised were addressed. I also acknowledge Sue Bradford. Sue talked about the visit undertaken by me, Labour colleagues, and Sue to Barfoot and Thompson, who took us right through the whole process of real estate and explained how it worked. It was a very, very fruitful visit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI note that there were two types of submissions from firms. There were the firms who came along and who had put a tremendous amount of work into their submissions. That was very constructive. They supported many parts of the bill. In fact, many supported independent regulation over self-regulation because, I think, they went to the purpose of the Act. That is why we made an amendment. The original purpose was to promote and protect the interests of consumers relating to real estate. That was the primary purpose, but it was also to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work. I thank those firms who came along. I feel that their submissions were very constructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI also note that there were many, many other submissions that were standard form submissions. We are all pragmatists here; we know how it works. The Real Estate Institute had a very, very strong view about self-regulation and about the status quo and produced a form submission that it encouraged many of its members to sign. That was perfectly pragmatic; that is what happens. But, at the end of the day, when we sat and talked to people about protection, there was very much a meeting of minds with many of those submitters about the need for protection but, more important, for independence and for a system that the public has confidence in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI am absolutely appalled at the games the National Party members are playing. I have to say that they were there, they knew what the issues were, they were not in disagreement with many, but, at the end of the day, they held the old finger up in the wind to see where they thought they would get a lot of support from in terms of the people who were important to them in an election year. They made a very pragmatic decision\u2014and certainly a decision that I do not respect\u2014not to support this bill. There is absolute nonsense coming from National members around the issue of property management. National knows that it was outside the scope of the bill. We heard from independent people who do not work in the real estate industry but who work in property management. They came to the committee and said: \u201CWe support regulation but we won\u2019t be covered. We support looking into this and covering the whole industry around standards.\u201D And we say: \u201CGood on you for doing that.\u201D That is why there is a commitment to review the status of property management, and should legislation be required\u2014and I believe that will be the case\u2014then that will come into effect. The Minister has made the commitment that it will come into effect at the same time as this legislation comes into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EAll of the nonsense about how this legislation does not meet needs is absolute rubbish. Thank heavens National does not have the numbers, because it wants the status quo whereby people who have a complaint are at the mercy of the industry, there is no independence whatsoever, and there are no fines of any impact that give people who are investing in the biggest investment of their lives the protection they deserve. This is a fantastic bill. It has been dramatically improved by the select committee process and I am proud to stand in this House to commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd03409eaa041aeb3422c4c9fbb747d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd03409eaa041aeb3422c4c9fbb747d\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I cannot empathise on any basis with the comments that the previous speaker, Lynne Pillay, made. I think a very good starting point for looking at this type of legislation is to gauge the reactions of both the public and the industry organisation to what has occurred. Just by way of contrast, I look for a moment at the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. In the passage of that legislation a very committed effort was made by the Law Society and the policy advisers in the Ministry of Justice to come up with legislation that would provide a workable framework for the future and would also enable a high level of consumer protection to be offered to the public and society more generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThis bill certainly did not have that intent in mind. It immediately put the Minister in a situation of conflict and confrontation with the industry. He believed quite clearly that there was massive rorting and fraud going on the sector, and he decided he would make an example of this particular occupational group. I have had the good fortune as a practising lawyer for perhaps 30 years to have a close involvement with the industry, and I can certainly make some comments that, although not exactly insider comments, reflect an understanding of its operations. One of the things one could say about those involved in the sector, particularly those in leadership positions, is that they have a passionate concern about the sector, and they have in many cases given thousands of hours of time to seeking to improve the lots both of those who work in the sector and of those who seek to take advantage of its services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe saw clearly when the bill was introduced, where the Minister and his advisers were coming from, because the explanatory note to the bill had in it a general purpose statement that started off by noting that \u201CThe Real Estate Agents Act 1976 is over 30 years old\u201D. That in itself seemed to the Minister and his advisers a reason for making change. Yet I reflect on the Crimes Act 1961, which is old legislation in respect of which there is no necessary warrant for change. The Crimes Act 1961 would be\u2014what\u2014some 47 years old. So in itself the fact that legislation might be 30 years old is not significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe policy advisers also said in the general policy statement that the shortcomings of the Real Estate Agents Act included that \u201CIt provides for a system of industry self-regulation that lacks independence, transparency, and accountability. This, combined with the significant risk posed to consumers from real estate activity such as mishandling of funds, poor contractual advice, misleading representations, conflicts of interest, and misuse of information, make it essential to provide a regulatory framework that affords consumers an adequate level of protection.\u201D So battle was joined. The end result in a setting of confrontation, I believe, has not been to produce a statute that has those key elements of consumer protection that may be required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhat was the response of the institute to all of this? Well, it had a number of concerns, and I would identify them in two broad categories. First of all, it saw\u2014as must be readily apparent\u2014that the bill lacked consistency. It exposes thousands of people to new risk through its failure to include property management and residential letting and leasing within the new regulatory framework. I think it is right to say that the fall-out from the Blue Chip collapse clearly demonstrates the need for these activities to be regulated. I have heard the comments of the previous speaker, but here an opportunity to effect significant change and make a significant advance to improve the merit of this legislation was not taken. It is all very well to say that these issues may be addressed in the future, but the reality of the shortage of parliamentary time is that it will be some considerable period\u2014certainly if this Government lingers in office for another term\u2014until any appropriate change is made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo there was a criticism of lack of consistency. But I think there is a stronger criticism that can be made, and that is basically that the bill lacks balance. I do not doubt that the Minister has done his very best, but in a setting where he has no basic knowledge of what the problems are, it is an exercise fraught with difficulty. So I am not criticising the Minister\u2014he has done the very best he can with his intellect and with the advice that he has had available to him. That a shortfall has emerged is quite understandable. The Minister should not feel bad about that as he shouts across the House. He should not feel embarrassed. I certainly do not feel embarrassed in making comments about the challenge that he has had to face and, in fact, the failure that has so sadly occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI was saying that the bill lacks balance, and I would just like to develop that for a moment. The 1976 Act has been completely dismantled. Even those parts of it that have worked really well over the past 32 years have been thrown out. There has been this substantial transfer to the authority or to the Minister of a raft of regulatory functions. I note that in its submission the Real Estate Institute spoke about a scorched earth approach. Maybe those are heavy words, but I think they can be justified because a number of things have happened here, including putting at substantial risk a very cost-effective system of conveyancing at a time when housing affordability, as we all know, is a significant concern. If this bill is to pass, we will also have produced significant avoidable expense, some of which will quite clearly be passed on to consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe will see significant delays to the establishment of the framework, and that, of course is associated with the issue in the Supplementary Order Paper of an extended period for the transitional provisions. We have compromised the workability and practicability of the new regime by denying input to those with direct industry experience. So the outcome is less satisfactory legislation than might have been expected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI think it is appropriate to respond directly to comments that the Minister may make at a later stage, in connection with National\u2019s perspective on the bill. I have pretty much summarised where the institute and those in the industry stand, but National took a full part in the bill as it was reported from the Justice and Electoral Committee. It noted that some of the concerns that it had expressed had been the subject of patching, but it continued to oppose this bill. I think we do so for reasons that are soundly based. Are they based on an industry perspective? Sure. But they are also based on the perspective of the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI think we would say that a new independent authority with industry representation is required to give consumers confidence that there is effective oversight of this industry. I am bound to say that there are circumstances\u2014fortunately only a few\u2014where fraud and resultant loss have occurred. But this bill is not adequate; it is not up to the task of achieving the objective that should have been set. I have spoken about the fact that a majority of submitters were concerned that property management was not included in the bill, and I think we all know that the last claims in respect of the fidelity guarantee fund were in relation to property management. The committee was told that about one in five complaints relates to property management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e1e52d17cb64af8ab036cd8e5ea7d91\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: They had no evidence for it. They did a ring-round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a7bfe67c0744d50b0434957aaf04530\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is critical of the evidence that has come to the committee. A lot of the evidence that came to the committee may have been flawed. It seems to be the case that it is that flawed evidence that the Government members have relied upon. I hope in the course of further comment on this bill to deal with issues that remain of true concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAmendments recommended by the Justice and Electoral Committee by majority agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022913c4e3323aa4733b8c5e8369d166809\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Real Estate Agents Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f3b32ff4bfa40d8901e412d6e40c5ce\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225325833e84a24aacbe8656d78b41afc1\u0022\u003EPart 1  Interpretation and application\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002262ab6c92d963486491a54936cef212ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ab6c92d963486491a54936cef212ef\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E As the minority report of the National Party makes clear, we support the timely reform of the real estate industry. Indeed, we go so far as to say that the Real Estate Agents Act 1976 is well overdue for reform. We also say that the purposes of the Real Estate Agents Bill are well spelt out in clause 3, which is the first clause of Part 1. It is important that we have regulation of the real estate industry that promotes public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work. But we take issue with subclause (2) about whether the purposes of the bill are actually achieved in the way that that subclause says they are achieved, particularly where it states they are achieved by \u201Cproviding accountability through a disciplinary process that is independent, transparent and effective.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ETo come back to the general concerns of the National Party\u2014and we acknowledge that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, has dealt with two of them\u2014I say the first concern we had, which related to property management, has not been dealt with. The second concern revolved around the uncertainty created by the 5-year review of the employment status of real estate agents. That excited a great deal of discussion in the Justice and Electoral Committee meetings, and it has been dealt with to our satisfaction, because that provision is now deleted. The next concern is about the transitional provision, and I will spend some time on talking about the practical implications of the transitional provision when we deal with clause 2. We are not happy with that. The next concern we had was that auctioneers remain excluded from the legislation, and that the new rules relating to auctions were impractical. That concern has been dealt with to our satisfaction, because those clauses have been deleted on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. The auction bidder\u2019s record was also impractical, and that has been dealt with to our satisfaction, because, as I said, clauses 136 to141 are deleted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe remain concerned about the bureaucracy and the effect it will have on costs to the consumer. That has not been dealt with. We also remain concerned about the requisite experience for a real estate agent to hold a licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo some matters have been dealt with, and it is good that the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper advances matters, but some other matters are not dealt with and we remain concerned about them. Therefore, we continue to oppose them. If the Minister was prepared to have an open mind on those matters, I believe that the remaining concerns could be resolved, but that is a matter for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI will briefly explain one or two matters that the select committee dealt with. A number of exemptions were contained in the bill. I have already mentioned clause 7 in my second reading speech. It deals with the exemption for lawyers and conveyancers, and only minor alterations have been made to it. Licensed auctioneers remain exempt, and that is fair enough. We deleted the exemptions for Landcorp and the exemptions granted by the authority. Clause 11 is an interesting clause. We tried to find out what the position was under clause 11. If my memory serves me correctly, it relates to a particular part of New Zealand only\u2014somewhere in the Ruapehu district\u2014where certain land agents are exempted under the regulations. I questioned whether we still needed that clause, because it covers so few people. Clauses 12 and 13 also deal with certain exemptions by Order in Council or on the recommendation of the Minister. I simply refer the Committee to clause 155, and in particular to clause 155(aa), 155(2), and 155(3). It was considered that the regulation-making power in that clause was the best place to deal with issues relating to the exemptions formerly contained under clauses 12 and 13. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion on this part, I simply say that the purpose of the Act as set out in clause 3(1) is commendable, but I regret that the purpose is not achieved by the structure that has been created. Some issues have been dealt with, but we simply do not need a bureaucracy to regulate this occupational group. We remain very concerned at the other issues I have dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00223b29c7852c7c4fba90f0bd080b00a24e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b29c7852c7c4fba90f0bd080b00a24e\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for allowing me to take a call on Part 1 of the Real Estate Agents Bill. As National members have stated throughout the debate on both the first and second readings, we support the purpose of the bill as contained in clause 3, which is to promote and protect the interests of consumers in respect of transactions that relate to real estate, and to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work. I cannot underscore enough the fact that we certainly support that purpose. We do not think this bill achieves that purpose and we think that it is a missed opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI want to spend some time on the interpretation clause, which is clause 4. It is the definitions clause, and there are a couple of definitions I would like the Minister to take a call on. The definitions of \u201Cresidential\u201D and of \u201Creal estate agency work\u201D are integral to how this bill will operate, how it can protect consumers, and how it can be effective. As a practitioner who spent some time in the conveyancing field of legal work, I certainly know that even under the old real estate legislation the definition of real estate work was very topical and often discussed. It is a definition that will cause confusion and I think it will be tested in the courts if this Parliament introduces provisions that are uncertain or ambiguous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIf one looks at the definition in clause 4 of \u201Creal estate agency work or agency work\u201D, one sees that it \u201C(a) means any work done or services provided, in trade, on behalf of another person for the purpose of bringing about a transaction; and (b) includes any work done by a branch manager \u2026\u201D. And that is fine, but I think we really do need some clarification on the exclusions. Under paragraph (c), the work \u201Cdoes not include\u2014(i) the provision of general advice or materials to assist owners to locate and negotiate with potential buyers; or (ii) the publication of newspapers, journals,\u201D etc., \u201Cthat include advertisements for the sale or other disposal of any land or business;\u201D\u2014and that is fine\u2014or the broadcasting of such advertisements. Again, that is fine. The work also does not include \u201C(iv) the lending of money on mortgage or otherwise; or (v) the provision of investment advice;\u201D. The Minister just might like to know that there is an extra \u201Cor\u201D at the end of that subparagraph, which needs to be deleted. It does not affect the substance of the provision but it certainly does affect its form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to take a call to explain to me, and to the Committee, how the operations of companies such as Green Door and the increasing trend to sell properties on TradeMe are affected by this definition of real estate work, or the exclusions thereto. I would also appreciate the Minister taking a call in relation to subparagraph (v), which excludes the provision of investment advice. Many people go to their real estate agents for investment advice. They want to know what investment properties to purchase, they want to know the rate of return on property, and they want to know whether there is any possibility of making capital gain on property. So they actually do go to their real estate agents. Admittedly, that is mainly in the commercial field, but not necessarily just in that field; it can also be in the residential field. They go to their real estate agents for investment advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill expressly excludes the giving of investment advice, but the bill is deficient to the extent that it does not actually say what investment advice really is, and where it starts and stops. Does it include the real estate agency work that is done, once the purchaser has decided to purchase a property? Does it start at the beginning of the transaction when the advice is first sought? Where does the investment advice start and stop, because that is a very important point in determining what exactly investment advice is, and whether it is excluded under the regime of this Real Estate Agents Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, is not listening, because he does not actually understand the real estate industry, at all, but the other issue is in relation to residential property and its definition in clause 4: \u201Cresidential property means any property used, or intended to be used, exclusively or principally for residential purposes\u201D. That sounds simple enough, and the Minister will know, because he is actually temporarily the electorate member for one of the fastest-growing areas in the country, which has a proliferation of lifestyle properties. Does a lifestyle property fall within the definition of a residential property, or not? What does \u201Cexclusively or principally\u201D mean? If a person has a 10-acre/4-hectare property, on which there is a house, a garage, a stable, a couple of ponies, and four sheep, is that residential property for the purposes of this Real Estate Agents Bill, or is that excluded? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESomeone might ask why that definition is important. It is important, because we can turn to clause 129 and read, \u201CParties may cancel sole agency agreements in respect of residential property 90 days after agreement is signed\u201D. So if a property is a lifestyle property\u2014that is, partially used for residential, partially used for agistment, partially used for grazing\u2014does that mean that the parties to that agreement, the vendor-clients, can then automatically cancel that sole agency agreement after 90 days, or does that mean they cannot, because that will be very important. If they cancel it, and they cancel it wrongly because of the uncertainty in this bill as enacted, they could end up instructing other agents and paying twice the agency fees, twice the real estate agent\u2019s commission. So we need to know, and the Minister needs to take a call on, the scope of that word \u201Cresidential\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other issue in relation to the definition of \u201Cresidential\u201D concerns subdivisions. Although clause 129(4A) excludes residential property that \u201C(a) has been developed with other properties in a continuous area; and (b) is proposed to be sold or otherwise disposed of by a vendor who also proposes to sell or otherwise dispose of, \u2026 some or all of those other properties.\u201D, at what stage does residential property fall within that exclusion? Is a subdivision created, for example, by dividing that 4-hectare paddock into two 2-hectare paddocks? Does that make that land a subdivision that falls within the exclusion provision in the definition of residential property for the purpose of clause 129? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAlthough to some that may seem pedantic, as one who has been involved in this industry as a lawyer for many, many years, I can tell members that a number of disputes arise from the vendor-clients who think they have properly cancelled a sole agency agreement, for whatever reason, but who suddenly find that they have not cancelled it and in the meantime they have gone to another agent, and then they run the risk of paying twice the commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI do not think this bill is good law for the protection of the consumer when it has these uncertainties in it. Some of these uncertainties were raised at the select committee but they were not answered, and I think one of the basic flaws of this bill is that although it is a real estate bill and relates to real estate agents, it seems to have been tailored with only residential property in mind and without giving any thought to other sales of real estate, whether commercial, industrial, or lifestyle. I think those issues do need to be addressed and I do think the Minister needs to take a call on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other definition I will also speak about is the definition of \u201Ctransaction\u201D. Although it might be a typo, that definition in clause 4 has five paragraphs. Most talk about the \u201Cgrant, sale, purchase, or the disposal or acquisition\u201D of a licence freehold estate or leasehold estate, but paragraph (a) does not include the word \u201Cgrant\u201D. The word \u201Cgrant\u201D is specifically excluded in relation to paragraph (a) of the definition of transaction, so paragraph (a) includes only \u201Cthe sale, purchase, or other disposal or acquisition of a freehold estate \u2026\u201D. It does not include the \u201Cgrant\u201D. That omission must be deemed to be deliberate, because that is the way statutes are interpreted, and I want to know why the word \u201Cgrant\u201D has been deliberately omitted from paragraph (a). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EFinally, in relation to this call, I will talk about the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 243, which talks about the sale and purchase of shares, and states that they are excluded. Why are they excluded? In the field of real estate there is often a family-owned company whose sole asset is a farm, and for various reasons\u2014for example, it could be for GST or other reasons\u2014rather than sell the real estate or the property itself, the parties decide to effect the transaction by way of the sale of shares. That, for all intents and purposes, and common sense, says that that is a sale relating to real estate, but under this bill it is not caught. I think that that, again, is a deficiency in this bill, which is borne out by the lack of awareness on the part of the Government parties as to how the real estate industry works. I think that that really does need to be clarified, because more and more rural property transactions are being conducted by way of a sale of shares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aada7302331346f48e55475001f4d9d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aada7302331346f48e55475001f4d9d2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some concern that I see this legislation back before us this morning. My concern is the relationship between the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand and the Minister in the chair, Clayton Cosgrove, because that relationship appears to be at an all-time low\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe841639f98a4593918a1a3cd690d803\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Fractured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224783a2ea5b5a41b59d8692b8f78c4a2c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014permanently fractured. In fact, I refer to an editorial in the Manawatu Standard on 12 July this year, in which the editor said: \u201CNow that the heat has gone out of the property sector, Mr Cosgrove looks like a bully.\u201D I say to the Minister that this is not the way to conduct a review of the legislation under which the real estate industry operates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI have had a harmonious relationship with the industry for many, many years. I have appreciated the worth of that industry. I know that, throughout the time National was in Government, the industry requested on many occasions that the Act be modernised and reviewed, but because National had so many other important things to do, we did not get on to the job. Then Mr Cosgrove got the chance, so what he did was to go out and call the real estate agents of this country cowboys and land sharks. I know that he has had to back down because Helen Clark put his arm up behind his back and said that is not the way to progress legislation. He has had to eat humble pie with his mate the Rt Hon Winston Raymond Peters. He has had to go to the Rt Hon Winston Raymond Peters and ask him to please support the legislation so that he can get it through the House. He has had to go back to the Real Estate Institute, and to work diligently on a Supplementary Order Paper, which he promised to present to the institute approximately 2 months ago. I think I am right in saying the institute got it yesterday at around 11 o\u2019clock. It goes some of the way towards starting to mend the fractious relationship that this Minister has created with the industry, but it does not go far enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to that member, who was aptly described by the Manawatu Standard as a bully\u2014not my words, but the words of the editor of the Manawatu Standard\u2014that he ought to learn how to handle relationships far better. If he had done that, then I think we could have had legislation before the House today that everybody could sign up to. He would not have had to go begging for the support of the Rt Hon Winston Raymond Peters; he would have had support from everybody. But, instead, he goes around and talks about the industry, besmirches it, and calls the real estate agents of this country cowboys and land sharks. I am not saying they are all perfect. I am certainly saying to the Minister that the great majority of them are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4411cd52fc54cdc993e3a872ef5ce85\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said. I\u2019ll give you all the press cuttings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bfff9738eec47379479c5bc2b7725e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Minister is now saying the great majority are good guys! That is not what he said a couple of months ago, when the guy was full of bluster and bravado. He went on TV\u2014I remember seeing it\u2014and talked of carnage in the industry. Now he is saying most of them are good guys. Why did he not think of doing the job properly in the first place? Why did he go out and destroy a relationship that did not need to be destroyed? Why did he not talk to the Real Estate Institute, work with it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228144330e79ab440194f5cef976c8c101\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike that member, he did something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a2ec971894443e9ef00e943be6a1a5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Jill Pettis is piping up now. What does she say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece2d56cdf8c449aa77fdf6caaea1cef\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: That member did nothing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7d63851ad840cfa6fb12fe863972e6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am the one who has been talking to the Real Estate Institute on a regular basis, making sure that its concerns are addressed in the Supplementary Order Paper. That member would not have picked up the phone to talk to anybody in the industry. She probably would not know anybody in the industry, and if she did she would probably abuse them; she would pick up on Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s words and call them all land sharks and cowboys. That does nothing, I say to Jill Pettis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat this industry wants is modernised legislation. It wants modernised legislation so that it can operate in the 21st century. The industry has been requesting that for a long time, and if the Minister had only worked with the industry and prepared some legislation that addressed the concerns held by a wide number of New Zealanders, then we could have had legislation back in the House today that would be supported by most political parties. But, no, Clayton Cosgrove probably took his lessons from Jill Pettis, so he had no chance of being a gentleman. He had no chance at all; instead of that, it was bullying tactics, bluster, and words that I should not be allowed to use in Parliament and will not. Consequently, we are here now with legislation that will mend some things that need to be mended, but it will not go far enough and it will not be enduring legislation for this industry. Of course, it is something that the National Government, after 15 November, will have to come back and tidy up, simply because of the arrogant and bullying attitude of the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241aa2cbd6f9447c2bf245cb77c735a8e\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: And ignorance!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221948b665c8ae4488ac3038be0319e7ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister obviously had a run-in with somebody, some time\u2014we do not know why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f412fe30814048fd9165ab6073668480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f412fe30814048fd9165ab6073668480\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call on this part, but I am so intrigued when I look at this bill, because I well remember seeing the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, on TV, using some very extravagant language to describe real estate agents: \u201Crip-off merchants\u201D, \u201Crascals\u201D, \u201Cland sharks\u201D\u2014all of those sorts of words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113c839bee91459aa71b01409c95ae51\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Cowboys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c74ab81f6d84c148bbba71cc7df06ad\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014cowboys\u2014and he was going to protect the consumer. I will talk a wee bit about that in a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWhen one looks at this legislation, one asks what the purpose of Part 1 actually is. The purpose rather intrigues me, because we had this very, very strong rhetoric about how consumers were being ripped off and were at risk, and when I look at the commentary, I see that the purpose of the Act is to \u201Creinforce the message that the bill sends to the industry\u201D. So here we have this great mischief occurring in the transactions of the nation, and this bill will reinforce the message. I feel that if there are such evil procedures taking place in the transactions involving real estate around the country, there certainly needs to be quite a bit more than a message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI think that this bill is spawned out of envy, to some degree. Some real estate agents have actually been successful. Therefore, if they have been successful, they must have been conducting evil business. That is where it comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7747636503439f97544705f5e4b88b\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s silly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e73b1c7d914fbcbf1d6e69270339ba\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not silly. The Minister is now interested. If one looks at the expenditure of an individual in a lifetime, and at the size of the investments people make, one sees that No. 1 is real estate. There is absolutely no doubt about that. No. 2 is a motor car. Who are the most hated people, apart from politicians? Car salesmen! We have this focus on car salesmen, so we have to lift our game and hate those successful real estate agents. The third biggest investment that people make in their lives is carpet, which is rather fascinating, is it not? So the next thing we will see is that carpet salesmen are ripping off the nation. That is no basis to legislate on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe consumer is at risk\u2014well, the consumer is frequently at risk in a whole range of ways. Looking after the consumer is a high aspiration, but to a degree we have to set out a course\u2014a road map\u2014so that people who are making these real estate investments have a course that they can follow. There is a requirement that real estate agents be licensed and are of good character. Then one writes a contract. I have bought land on a handshake, without an agent. Would it not be great if we could do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022facdd63929e246c5a00370fb8ae91962\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: You did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d059d8d17c41c39fa7b384312e5853\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: The member understands that there are no problems with the great majority of transactions that take place. Then one gets a lawyer. The lawyer looks at the land information memorandum report and the memorials to see whether there is any mischief. There is a structured way in which those transactions take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c2c903b929a4acc900df682551676b9\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: So there\u2019s no problem at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c45349e89964089b32e773639245f4b\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, here is the point, you see. The Minister said \u201CSo there\u2019s not a problem?\u201D. I want the Minister to stand up and say \u201CThis is the mischief that we have uncovered.\u201D I want the Minister to take a call and say \u201CThis is what was happening.\u201D Then we might have something to debate other than a bill whose purpose is to reinforce a message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI think we have had the select committee beavering away over submissions. I will have some things to say, because I became intrigued by an element in Part 5, so I am looking forward to getting the Minister\u2019s response on that. But, essentially, we really need to have a clearer amplification of what the purpose is in this bill. What is the mischief? What have these evil real estate agents been doing to the nation of New Zealand that this bill will protect us from? If I am to know what it is, then I need to have some clear articulation of what the mischief is so that we can measure whether this bill addresses those things. I look forward to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, telling us what those evils are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224c11f358fd14a32825eaf8521543bbe\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on, help is on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f661ba49ddd45a7bb3326d12cb1d8bc\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Right, well, let us hear about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022e20fc48fe2b647e6a19f1f77bc15cb9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e20fc48fe2b647e6a19f1f77bc15cb9e\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E At the moment we are dealing with Part 1 of the Real Estate Agents Bill, which National opposes. I certainly support what the previous speaker, Mr Roy, said about the deficiencies of this particular part. I do not want to deal with the purpose provisions, because they are now the subject of some amendment. But I would like to deal with what is clearly a gap in this legislation\u2014a gap that others have recognised\u2014relating to residential letting, leasing, and property management, because if the bill were to be extended, the extension would take place in this part in substantial measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EMembers have heard the argument that residential letting, leasing, and property management should be brought within the coverage of the bill. That would not be very difficult. It could be done by removing the phrase \u201C(other than a tenancy to which the Residential Tenancies Act 1986 applies):\u201D from the definition of \u201Ctransaction\u201D in clause 4, and by amending the definition of \u201Creal estate agency work\u2019\u2019 or \u201Cagency work\u201D in clause 4 to include something that might be expressed in this way: \u201Cdoes include the management of leases and tenancies on behalf of another person, including the collection or receipt of rent money\u201D. If those changes were made, then that would be sufficient to deal with the issue that has been identified as a looming lacuna in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESome would say that those changes might carry with them a need for substantial adjustment of the transitional period\u2014and there has been a minor change to that transitional period\u2014but I question that, because I think only a very short transitional period would be needed to bring property management under the regime. Why do I say that? Because the current residential property managers\u2019 code of practice and the current property management strands in the National Certificate in Real Estate for salespeople can be very easily adapted to suit this purpose. That was the issue Mr Finlayson was trying to get across to the Minister when he made those points in his second reading speech. I also think there is a strong case for commercial and industrial property management to be included in the legislation. It should not be simply limited to residential letting, leasing, and property management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like to pick up on another important point that Mr Finlayson made in the course of his comments on this part, because he usefully drew our attention to a series of omissions that have been made with regard to clauses 9, 10, 12, and 13 in Part 1. These include an exemption for Landcorp Farming Ltd, an exemption granted by the authority, and some other provisions. What does remain? As Mr Finlayson identified, what remains is clause 11. To the challenges that Mr Roy laid down to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove\u2014which I hope he will respond to\u2014I would just add that I invite him to look for a moment at clause 11. Clause 11 now states: \u201CA person who is exempted by a regulation made under section 155(aa) may, in accordance with that regulation, carry out real estate agency work.\u201D So there is a reference to later provisions contained in a later part that will be the subject of debate. But if we look at clause 155(aa), we see that in very broad terms it enables the Governor-General, in the case of any person or class of persons, to make an exemption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe challenge I am throwing down to the Minister is to briefly explain what the current exemptions are, but, more specifically, to invite him to consider the work that has been done by the Regulations Review Committee relating to the use of exemptions. I ask why, in this case, it has been deemed to be appropriate to depart from the Legislation Advisory Committee recommendations and guidelines for exemptions of this type, because I believe that the power to grant general exemptions to people or classes of people from the requirement to be licensed should be removed from the bill. If exemptions are to be made, then they should be expressly provided for in primary legislation, and clause 11, therefore, should also be omitted. The Minister should comment on that. It is simply not appropriate to confer, by way of delegated legislation, a privilege on a person or a class of persons for no good reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIf the power to grant exemptions remains, then surely the bill should be amended to require a clear code to be established for the circumstances in which exemptions should be granted. There should be an obligation to consult with affected parties, certain factors should be laid down that can properly be considered, consideration should be given to the effects of granting an exemption on persons who are licensed under the legislation and are not subject to the exemption, reasons should be given for the granting of the exemption, and, of course, it should be clearly recorded that the Minister, who will, in effect, be promoting the regulation, is satisfied that granting the exemption will give effect to the purposes of the bill. I ask why it is appropriate to depart from the clear guidelines laid down by the Legislation Advisory Committee in the way that has been done here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThose are the issues that I seek the Minister\u2019s response to. He cannot sit there lamely, not responding to the issues that Mr Roy and I have laid down by way of challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002281641734ba4e469eb9aa3455a6023fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281641734ba4e469eb9aa3455a6023fbe\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak on the exemption for licensed auctioneers in Part 1. Clause 8 states: \u201CA person who is licensed as an auctioneer under the Auctioneers Act 1928 may sell or offer to sell any land by auction.\u201D I was not involved in all of the proceedings of the Justice and Electoral Committee on this bill, but I remember being present for the meeting when we received submissions on the requirements where land was sold by auction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe submissions overall, as has been said by others here today, were detailed, and the meetings were often intense occasions. Rightly or wrongly, a large section of the real estate industry had developed real fears associated with the bill and the implications that it could have on long-serving, dedicated practitioners who had been working in an ethical and thoroughly professional manner, often within small communities. There was a movement throughout the industry that generated a particular point of view that did not help those who were uncertain. The fact that there were so many submissions on a very complex piece of regulatory framework would have been hard to manage in any circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe other aspect is that other members who have spoken this morning\u2014and I would perhaps put myself in the same category, from a technical point of view\u2014do not really have a fixed understanding of the way the real estate industry, and particularly auctioneering, works. In respect of clause 136, relating to the requirements where land is sold by auction, I think it was Sue Bradford who had the decency to recognise this lack of understanding. In her speech this morning she said she had a complete lack of knowledge of auctioneering. I guess that this situation would have got the select committee hearings off to a rocky start. I am not sure that the officials had other than a textbook understanding of auctioneering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe rocky start was not necessary, and did not help, but I can appreciate that for those not involved in auctions and auctioneering it is a system full of mystery, uncertainty, risk, and it has potential for deception. It is, none the less, probably the world\u2019s oldest system of having a commercial exchange of goods by competitive treating amongst a group of people with a common interest in an item or items of property. There were reports of auctions being held on battlefields in Roman times as a means of personal property disposal. The system in its simplest, purest form is exactly that\u2014it is simple. It is a call and a response. Goodness only knows who dreamt up clauses 137 to 141, but on the very first day of submissions it certainly lifted the eyebrows of lifetime-experienced auctioneers right over the top of their heads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ESo that those who are listening to this stage of the debate on the Real Estate Agents Bill can understand what we are talking about, I point out that the legislation states that any auction for the sale of land, whether the person conducting the auction is a licensee or licensed auctioneer under the Auctioneers Act 1928, must have a bidders record before any bids are taken at an auction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222144e6104a3843edac29760239cdcc1c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am just wondering whether you are of the view that you are on Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297da635d0d6c4d1299917737cba059a1\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are dealing with Part 1, Mr Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742a4d5349854019a35cdbcb4fcc963a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97334230867434595bc005187dff7a2\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014where it lists auctioneers as being licensed to conduct sales. These conditions pertain to it, so it is relevant from that point of view. The person\u2019s name and address, and the reference to one or more documents by which the identity of that person is proved, is provided to auctioneers, who, perhaps, are also involved in the sale of goods and chattels, cattle and sheep, and all of that sort of thing. Not only does one have to get the person\u2019s name and establish a bidders record but also one has to have some document that identifies someone as the correct person. It goes on. In the case of the person bidding on behalf of another person, the name and address of that other person, and the reference to one or more documents by which the identity of that person is proved, must be produced. Clause 137(5) states: \u201CThe person engaged to conduct the auction must keep the Bidders Record for at least 3 years and must keep all the Bidders Records made by the person together in the form of a register of Bidders Records.\u201D That was a needless regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a655e2a493184eba8e6e3929cd0d7821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a655e2a493184eba8e6e3929cd0d7821\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I want to raise two further points to do with Part 1. The first point is in relation to clause 9, which through the select committee process in the Justice and Electoral Committee has been deleted. That was a surprising exemption clause for Landcorp Farming Ltd. I want to know what the rationale was for the Minister, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, as he put this legislation together, to say there should be a regime for everybody else within New Zealand, but that regime should not apply to Landcorp Farming Ltd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs the Minister will know from his days as a humble backbencher and from sitting on the Primary Production Committee, the Landcorp Farming company is actually involved in significant numbers of residential property sales, particularly around the likes of Lake Taup\u014D. It seems to me that this Minister, armed with that background information, should never have contemplated dealing with the cowboys and land sharks, as he calls the industry, and then saying one particular State-owned enterprise, with which he was familiar, should be exempted. So I would be very, very interested in the Minister taking a call and explaining the rationale for the inclusion of clause 9 in the bill originally. I am very, very, pleased that the select committee saw fit to remove that clause. I guess it has done that on the basis of saying \u201Cone law for all\u201D. If the law is good enough to apply to the industry generally, it should also apply to our own State-owned enterprise Landcorp Farming Ltd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second issue that I want to make sure the Minister has done his homework on is around the definition of an \u201Cagent\u201D. Here we now have the definition of an agent meaning \u201Ca real estate agent who holds, or is deemed to hold, a current licence as an agent\u201D. Does that include a cowboy? The Minister has gone out there and said all land agents are sharks and cowboys, etc., and they cause carnage. And here he has a fairly defined definition of an agent, which seems to me to exempt anybody whom we might possibly have classified as a rogue agent. The Real Estate Institute of New Zealand is involved in a process of licensing these people. All it wants is the ability, if there is an occasion where somebody becomes a rogue agent, to, in fact, deal with that person. It has been asking for that and for modernised powers for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EPerhaps, if that definition is not suitable to define a cowboy, then the Minister ought to think quite seriously about including specific definitions of a land shark and of a cowboy. I say to the Minister that despite his rather extravagant outbursts and the bullying and arrogance around this legislation, he is not right to label the great majority of real estate agents as cowboys, because they are not. They are not cowboys and they are not land sharks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Minister, at the end of my earlier contribution, interjected with some derogatory remark about me being a property developer. Well, if the Minister means by that that I have had considerable dealings with, and sold properties through, real estate agents, that is true. There is nothing wrong with doing that; I had every ability to engage somebody if I wanted to. I also had the ability, if I was not happy with the system, to actually attempt to do it on my own, without involving the services of the industry. That has always been a choice available to people. It is interesting to me to note that when most people come to sell property, whether it be industrial, commercial, rural, or residential property, they do not choose that path. They make a decision to engage somebody, because they think the expertise offered by that person will actually further the value of the sale that they are about to engage in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister would rise to his feet and earn his keep, then I would be very, very grateful, because I think he could help the debate by answering a few of the questions that have been raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe other very interesting comment that I would like to pick up on is something that I picked up from NewsRoom dated 11 October 2008. Mr Cosgrove stated then: \u201CEvery day you wake up there is incompetence, more silliness, and in this case alleged fraud.\u201D As those comments were made nearly a year ago, I just wondered whether he did not have some sort of premonition of what was to happen to his own Government. I think we are very definitely talking about incompetence, more silliness, and in this case alleged fraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002240888d5074e14bef8616f17667dca5f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240888d5074e14bef8616f17667dca5f3\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to make several comments on this bill. It raises the fundamental question about why we need this bill in the first place, given there is currently an Act that guides a great deal of the activity of real estate agents in this country. The purpose of the bill states that it is for the protection of the interest of consumers in respect of transactions that relate to real estate and promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work. That immediately leaves us with the question about the range of work that a real estate agency undertakes. Right now, it is not only the listing of properties, the advertising of properties, and the sale of properties\u2014although technically they do not sell them, they facilitate a sale between a seller and a purchaser, and they connect the parties in a way that keeps them, I suppose, in a position of protecting their own interests\u2014but also the extensive engagement in property management. Nothing at all in this bill deals with that aspect of their business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENo doubt the genesis of this bill was a great deal of publicity made some time ago about one or two rogue performers in the real estate industry. It would be hard, then, to imagine why we need to turn the whole of the industry on its head with this Act when, in fact, there would not be a single professional body in this country where there are no rogue operators. Everyone regularly hears about the Law Society having to take action against some of its members for all sorts of things\u2014perhaps, coming to Parliament and telling porkies to a committee, or covering up activities of someone deemed to be a client. These sorts of things happen, and the Law Society duly takes the appropriate action to protect the integrity of its members. Similarly, one could say that about the teaching profession and the medical profession. Periodically there are cases of doctors who go off the rails, and they are discussed. If we look at all the professional bodies we see, they all have some form of legislative protection and arrangement around the way in which those professionals may operate, and we may find that there are rogue operators at various times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo what was the necessity to tighten up so very much on the real estate industry? I commend the efforts of the Real Estate Institute. It has said it wants to get tougher and wants changes that will enable it to get tougher. But I also accept that the provisions of this bill are just a step or two too far. One of the problems that beset the economy in New Zealand is the extraordinary cost of doing business. It is much higher than in many other countries in the world, and when it comes to real estate New Zealand has some of the most expensive transactions anywhere in the world. I know we see people out there offering to do the job for 1 percent of the sales fee, etc., but that is always on top of a range of costs that are pre-prescribed and generally prepaid by the vendor. In New Zealand it is not uncommon for real estate fees to be 4 to 5 percent. A fee of 4.75 percent is common, and then there is a base fee as well. There is a range of fees up to that sort of level. It would be interesting to know why anyone would expect that this bill will lower that cost. We should surely be always looking to remove costs from our economy through legislation, rather than at loading them into the economy through legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt would be interesting to hear from the Minister just how he thinks the changes he has proposed to this bill make it any more palatable to those who are on the other end of the bill. I suppose it would also be interesting to hear some recitation on the consultation that might have taken place. The Government is very strong on saying it consults widely and seldom moves without widespread acceptance of what it is doing. That is a little hard to understand, given the current nature of polling, but I will not go down that track. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister how he has been persuaded to change his mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022a933176a6e67408d964064fc48cb551f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a933176a6e67408d964064fc48cb551f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I make myself available to the Committee, after undertaking other business this morning, to make a contribution on the Real Estate Agents Bill, which I have taken a long and personal interest in since it was introduced into the House by the Minister, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. I decidedly recall the Minister saying to me across the Chamber that the National Opposition\u2019s decision to oppose the bill, because of seven or eight things we were concerned about, would be a major problem for us in coming months. The problem for him was that it was not, and we have seen from the Minister\u2014and I am sure my colleagues alluded to this during the second reading debate\u2014a major back-down on several of the matters we raised right at the first reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Minister, quite rightly, was initially concerned\u2014this relates to the purpose clause, by the way\u2014about people whose decisions on savings and the purchase and sale of real estate were not receiving the type of service that the country would expect from real estate agents. The problem in addressing that, of course, was that instead of taking an approach that could have been considered to be thoughtful and forward-looking, the Minister chose to take the opportunity to make a few political statements around the place. I thought the Minister\u2019s choice of phrase was interesting. I have to remind the Committee of the fact that the Minister announced six times, at the last count, he was going to review and rejig the real estate industry, before we saw a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe finally got the bill and found the curious thing was that clause 3(1) states \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to promote and protect the interests of consumers\u201D. No one has ever argued with that; National has always said that should be a paramount issue. Whether we have to legislate is another issue, but the fact is that the bill\u2019s purpose is to promote and protect the interests of consumers. The most extraordinary addition to clause 3 is this: \u201C\u2026 and to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work.\u201D That makes sense too, as the Minister has been knocking the industry about the head and face\u2014metaphorically, of course\u2014for the last 6 or 7 months. I now see that at the last moment the Minister and his officials have decided to flip the coin completely and promote public confidence. I tell the Minister that the easiest way to do that is to talk about the industry in a positive way and suggest legislation that could help to craft such positivity and such consumer confidence over the years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI am staggered, after all the newspaper column inches I have read about the Real Estate Institute and how appalling the industry is, that the Minster then decided to put forward Supplementary Order Paper 243 in his name\u2014yesterday, I believe, or maybe the day before. Many of the proposed amendments on it were contained in National\u2019s minority report on the bill. There are three areas of the Supplementary Order Paper where we would take exception with the Minister, and those are around the experience matters, which the Minister has changed, the transitional period, which by my reading of it he has increased by only a couple of months, and of course the elusive issue of the non-inclusion of property management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister will argue, as we have heard, that property management could be seen to be outside the scope of the bill, but, as we know, that matter could easily be addressed by leave of the Committee of the whole House. I would be interested to know from the Minister, who is sitting there quietly and thoughtfully\u2014it is a pity he did not do that 6 months ago\u2014whether he would be prepared to put that leave and see whether we could indeed, by the will of the Committee, include property management in the bill at this point in time. I know many of the political parties represented here this afternoon would be prepared to help officials to draft an amendment to that effect, so we should test the Committee in order to see its will on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI said during the first reading debate on this bill that had the Minister adopted the approach that his colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel did in dealing with the financial advisers legislation and the matters surrounding those reviews, this bill could have been dealt with, I would imagine, cross-party in a pretty constructive and deliberate way. There would have been disagreements on some things, but overall there was no need for us to have such a fiery first start to this legislation. We will be working our way through the Committee stage in a part by part debate, unless the Minister is of a mind to do so clause by clause. Either way, the National Party will be here to address the issues throughout the afternoon and evening. I think the important thing is that the Minister is convinced, as we go through the bill part by part, that the amendments he is now proposing\u2014having rejected them initially\u2014are up to scratch and will do the job he wants to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI am just signalling, as part of the debate on the purpose clause, that we are ready to have quite a detailed discussion with the Minister during the debate on the remaining parts of this bill. I have no doubt that he is up to the task, but I want to know from him\u2014and I would be grateful if he took the next call\u2014whether he thinks the new Supplementary Order Paper 243 could be further worked to ensure that the amendments present and needed for this legislation to work properly\u2014those proposed by National in its minority report\u2014are considered as part of this process. I would also be interested to know whether the Minister is prepared to seek the leave of the Committee to include property management as part of this bill. If he is, then again, in the interests of progressing matters, we are happy to put the offer to the Minister to draft something for him this afternoon and tonight. I am sure he would be happy, if he agrees to that, to make his officials available to give us a hand with that, so we will move to try to test the Minister on that issue later today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EUltimately, what has occurred here is that the Minister decided he would dig in and take some political opportunities 6 or 7 months ago. To be fair to him, he held fast for a very long time. Then it became clearly obvious that what National had been saying at the first reading of the bill, and what other parties had mentioned not only in the first reading but also during the select committee process in the Justice and Electoral Committee, was that the bill as proposed simply was not doing the business, not just for the industry\u2014which, to be fair, is a major player in this legislation\u2014but also, more particularly, for the consumers who use the industry to buy or sell real estate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI was not able to be there all of the time during the select committee process, but I did enjoy the odd visit when the discussions on this bill were being undertaken, and, in fairness, I acknowledge that members of the committee from the Labour side were interested in having detailed discussions about how the clauses in the bill would work. I felt a bit sorry for the officials, because they were moving around a bit in the dark early on, in the sense that it was not clear whether the institute or anybody else who had been consulted prior to the first reading was being consulted during the course of the bill being before the select committee. If the Minister can help us with regard to that point, it would certainly help to clear that issue up, once and for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI am signalling that it is worth saying to the officials involved in this process that their efforts were not unnoticed. They did the best they could do with something that people tried to make into a political hot potato. In the end, it really just did not fly, because legislatively\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221655e2b7c6f94242a195e519154462c6\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Potatoes don\u2019t fly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7532a8b9e64470dbca2d2d3b4aa80c1\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: It depends on whether one throws them, I say to the Minister. Legislatively, there was always going to be a difficulty with the acceptability and practicality of this legislation, given that it deals not just with the industry but also with consumers and its relevance to their buying and selling of real estate. Those issues, of course, meant that complex questions around the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act and the financial advisers legislation had to be taken into account when coming up with this bill and its purpose, which is contained in Part 1. I know that Gerry Brownlee, Lindsay Tisch, Christopher Finlayson, Kate Wilkinson, and others will be talking about this matter in some detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI want to finish by saying this to the promoter of this bill: it is not too late; we can still fix the bill. I know that the Minister has made a substantial shift in producing Supplementary Order Paper 243. If he had just gone a step further, I am sure the bill would be moving at a much faster pace than it will be moving at this afternoon and this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002286f733e10f174969aae4f2f968e13084\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286f733e10f174969aae4f2f968e13084\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder whether the Minister in the chair might be good enough to turn his attention to clause 6(3) of the bill, which states: \u201CFor the purposes of this section, it is immaterial whether or not a person carries out any agency work as a business in its own right or as part of, or in connection with, any other business.\u201D The reason I am raising this is that when we see legislation rushed through Parliament, we are left with the impression that there must be a few things in here that have not been properly considered. I take the Committee back to the definition of \u201Creal estate agency work or agency work\u201D, which is contained in the interpretation clause. It states: \u201C(a) means any work done or services provided, in trade, on behalf of another person for the purposes of bringing about a transaction;\u201D. Well, that immediately raises the question about the status of private sales, and about the status of deceased estates being sold within a family or, for that matter, outside a family\u2014private sales between parties who are perhaps consenting over the values and property swaps. It raises the question about mortgagee sales and the way in which, for example, banks might cluster and group those sales. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAnd then it raises other questions. Let us look, for example, at the recent purchase of a number of properties by the Christchurch City Council from a property developer in that city. Given that those properties were on the market but the parties did an off-market deal, there is no doubt that the staff of the council effectively put themselves into a position, under this legislation, of being the agents who facilitated that particular transaction. It is interesting to note that the catch-all provision of \u201Cany other business\u201D would tend to rule out the suggestion that it has to be a related business\u2014a business related to the activities of a real estate agent. There is no suggestion of that, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think that that potentially causes quite a bit of a problem, because we know that off-market sales occur frequently. We know that quite often if someone is the executor of an estate, he or she may go out to relatives or family friends or others who are not direct beneficiaries of any particular estate, indicate that there is a property for sale, and then start to negotiate a deal. Well, it would seem that under this particular law that will now not be possible. It will force people to accept the expense involved in taking on a licensed operator in order to give effect to that transaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI am sure that is not the intention of the committee, or even of the Minister. It will, I think, substantially slow the transfer of properties, which might rightly be done outside the usual practice of working through licensed real estate agents. It is, of course, a fact that lawyers\u2019 offices, the Public Trust, various banking institutions, and others will not have a great interest in lining up with their papers all put together, to become licensed real estate agents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThat may not be the worst of it. I think, by the reading of this bill, the worst of it is that private sales between individuals are most certainly caught. It would be interesting for the Minister to offer the Committee his view on that particular point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note, too, that agency work \u201Cincludes any work done by a branch manager or salesperson under the direction of, or on behalf of, an agent to enable the agent to do the work or provide the services described\u201D. There are hundreds of people in this country who work as assistants to real estate agents. They are not real estate agents in their own right, and they do not advertise their services. They may well, under the instruction of the agent, open up a property so that someone can view it. But they do not turn up with the papers that get signed in order for the transaction to take place. They are simply an assistant, yet it would seem they are now caught, under this bill, and will need to meet all the requirements that this bill puts on real estate agents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022eabc17349e6946d8a4e9dfb112ae5c80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eabc17349e6946d8a4e9dfb112ae5c80\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call to give notice to the Committee of four amendments that I will be moving to various clauses in Part 1 of the Real Estate Agents Bill. There are three amendments to clause 4, and I just want to draw the attention of the Committee to those. The first amendment relates to clause 4(c)(i). The proposal is to omit that wording, because what that definition does is define the scope of activities of real estate agency work or agency work. The amendment effectively says that the removal of a prohibition on the provision of general advice or materials to assist owners to locate and negotiate with potential buyers is actually logical. If we say that that activity by agents is excluded from the definition, then in fact one of the major areas of concern that people might have is also being excluded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMy second amendment relates to clause 4(c)(v), and that is to remove the reference to the provision of investment advice. At the moment we have this rather strange situation where real estate agents providing what might be described as investment advice to clients is permissible. That is permissible under this bill because it is deemed not to be a definition of real estate agency work or agency work. It seems that that is actually a major omission. It may well owe something to the rather negative way in which this particular clause has been drafted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe next amendment is a more technical one to the definition of a transaction, being \u201Cthe sale, purchase, or other disposal or acquisition of a freehold estate or interest in land:\u201D. I am proposing to add the word \u201Cgrant\u201D, because otherwise we do not have any capacity to deal with the issue of letting and leasing. An amendment along those lines would bring in the scope that the legislation intends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMy final amendment to this part relates to clause 8. I simply propose the deletion of clause 8, for a very simply reason. Clause 8 as it stands introduces an exemption for licensed auctioneers. In fact, in the bill as it stands, auctioneering generally is excluded, yet it is a major part of the real estate industry, and the amendment would bring the auctioneering side of the business into the scope of coverage of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI have some other amendments to subsequent parts of the bill and will deal with those as we come to them. But I would ask the Committee to give consideration to those matters. I do not think they are in the main contentious. I think they are designed to make this legislation work as intended, and, laying aside one\u2019s opposition to the principal Act, it is always a responsibility of the House to make sure we get the best legislation in place. I simply ask the Committee to give consideration to those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022430b36f9c1bb447ebf094c7bf8aa8ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022430b36f9c1bb447ebf094c7bf8aa8ab3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I congratulate the previous speaker, Peter Dunne, on the amendments he is bringing forward. I think they add value to the bill. I do not find the bill as it stands to be a negative one. It is a gut reaction to a concern in the market place. I think the deletions the member proposes add value. I cannot speak for National as to whether we will support them, but certainly from my point of view\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f5700bc7fc4cb993fa75fb103dd5e2\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f7e9038cb7471f90706df7161f9fd0\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: We will be supporting them. The first amendment he mentioned affects paragraph (c)(i) of the definition \u201Creal estate agency work\u201D, in clause 4. It was the next one that really caught my attention, and it affects subparagraph (v), dealing with \u201Cthe provision of investment advice;\u201D. I am sure there are a lot of experts out there in the market who say to people that if they purchase such-and-such a property, they will get a rate of return, guaranteed cash flows, or whatever. If members have ever been to property seminars, they will know that those sorts of things are very much to the fore. Unwilling people have been captured by too-good-to-be-true growth potentials and returns. I am sure that if this subparagraph is not taken out, we will have a problem. The issue goes back to other bills the House has been debating over the months. I think the Financial Advisers Bill also encapsulates it. The point the member makes in terms of his amendment deleting that subparagraph certainly would add value. I did not catch what the fourth amendment was, but the other one I did pick up on was to omit clause 8, \u201CExemption for licensed auctioneers\u201D. I am sure that when we further debate these provisions, Peter Dunne will have the support of National for his amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to go back to the genesis of this bill. It is interesting that although there has been some concern about the cowboys out there\u2014people who have not operated in the professional way that one would expect\u2014that situation is not unique to this industry. It happens in every occupational class. One can identify it happening right throughout other professions, whether it be the medical profession, the accountancy profession, or the field I come from. I am a valuer by profession. [Interruption] I did not quite catch the point of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove; would he like to repeat it, or is he going to mention it when he responds to my questions? Even in the valuing profession, which I was a member of for many years, there has been a question mark over some of the practices that have been carried out. The situation is not unique to real estate agents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe industry has said that some people should not have been in it, and they have disengaged, after bringing the industry into disrepute. There is no place for those people in the industry. It does not matter where such people come from; they should be removed. When I look at the interpretation of \u201Cagent\u201D in clause 4, I see that it \u201Cmeans a real estate agent who holds, or is deemed to hold, a current licence as an agent \u2026\u201D. Well, so what? What does that actually mean in the market place? To my mind it gives absolutely no protection. If this bill is designed to protect people who are using an agent, I have to say that it absolutely does not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOne has to ask where the mischief is. What has actually gone wrong that makes this bill necessary in the format it is in? Where is the harm? That question was put back on 11 December 2007, when my colleague Simon Power spoke in the first reading debate. I will quote him specifically. It is in Hansard, Volume 644, at page 13817. He quotes people as asking \u201CWhere\u2019s the evil?\u201D, \u201CWhere\u2019s the harm?\u201D, and \u201CWhat is it that this legislation is trying to address?\u201D. Do members know what the Minister said at that time? I shall quote the Minister\u2019s response in an interjection: \u201CA listening Government.\u201D Well, if he is part of a listening Government\u2014and that is what we read on page 13817\u2014if the Minister is in tune with, and is prepared to look closely at, the issues that have been identified, he would not be making comments about agents being \u201Cland sharks\u201D and \u201CB-grade goon shows\u201D. That is what the Minister said. It is mentioned here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aa5779735ac4034a5731514499ae704\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Just the bad ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab4779fbd284f60ba29413120ac8a92\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a \u201CB-grade goon show\u201D is not a way to describe this sort of industry. If one wants to build goodwill with an industry, one has to get alongside the people in it and work with them. The Minister says the Government is a listening Government; I say he is out of tune. He is out of step\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f48fa264f9240baa3925f8cc7eed9ae\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0d79c29f824643bfee9eb4b8e6ed7e\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister talks about the victims. What about the \u201Cwilling seller, willing buyer\u2019 concept? What about caveat emptor? What about somebody who is about to make an investment actually getting some independent advice, whether from an accountant or a lawyer? A lot of the problems have happened because people take at face value what they are told and believe that it is kosher. They do not look behind the scenes. We have always advocated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b1b7da83a1b4ae9b9b9ed3f14ff3161\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s their fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6aede01a6647f388f295fad8254355\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not their fault; it is just that they do not understand and they do not know. But the Minister cannot label land agents a \u201CB-grade goon show\u201D. That does absolutely nothing, I say to the Minister, for the reputation of this Government in trying to work out a programme going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe industry is looking for change. It has identified that. It is not averse to change. It is saying that it wants legislation of the time. It wants to make sure that, in this new century, it meets the demands of the market and safeguards its customers. The worst thing that can happen is that agents get a bad name and people do not use them, or look elsewhere. At the end of the day, most agents are on a commission. Their jobs are based on a commission. They have to build up goodwill, because if they do not, they are down the road. Possibly, the one good thing about the commission system is that only the good agents survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee talked about the excessive fees paid to agents. Well, there is no harm\u2014and I have done this in the past\u2014in negotiating a deal, in negotiating a flat rate. That is acceptable. If people are in a position to do that, then moving to a flat-rate arrangement can work extremely well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn the final minutes of my speech I want to ask the Minister a question. He can respond after the lunch break. The interpretation clause talks about \u201Creal property\u201D; does that term include mussel and oyster farms? I do not know the answer to that. I have asked about it, because we are talking about property. But if we are talking about leases on mussel farms\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238e909e722ef4f309ef1ba0dafce2e43\u0022\u003EHon Tariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m wondering whether real estate agents are involved in selling mussel farms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4e6933e1334becbd40200bb5764e8d\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are talking about property, are we not? I am talking about a lease, which is tradable. People have an interest in it. There are mussel and oyster farms throughout my area. There are farms in the Firth of Thames, the Coromandel, the Marlborough Sounds, and in Big Glory Bay on Stewart Island. There are a lot of such properties out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1609d373994424ac5d98b530db4fa3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I put to the Minister a question specifically relating to clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, about what was included in the term \u201Cland\u201D, the definition of which talks about \u201Creal property\u201D. The question I asked\u2014and I would be interested in a response from the Minister\u2014is whether mussel farms and oyster farms are included\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf2f2814aa84dbd9aa060d68d06f2f1\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d948c31ec1114a16af51ee704f90e9c9\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would like a more specific answer than just \u201CNo.\u201D When the Minister takes a call he might like to explain it to the Committee, to me, and also to Tariana Turia, who was interested in the question I was asking. If those farms are not included in \u201Creal property\u201D, we want to know why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fbc912dbef2427b88b4b4ba63453568\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Only land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229305bfaba9624c1ca20f99e326ecc7f8\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The definition talks about \u201Cinterests\u201D. A mussel farm does not just float there; it is actually on something, and I want a more specific answer than just \u201CNo.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EMy colleague the very learned lawyer Kate Wilkinson, who has interests in the real estate world and understands the complexities of it, and who, in her time as a lawyer, handled many real estate transactions, has asked some specific questions that we would like the Minister to respond to. Again, they relate to clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, and specifically to the definitions of \u201Cagent\u201D, \u201Cresidential property\u201D, and \u201Ctransaction\u201D. Specific questions were put to the Minister by Kate Wilkinson. I hope that over the luncheon break the Minister\u2019s advisers were able to come forward with some very clear answers to those specific questions. They are not difficult questions. We want to know what those terms mean, because they form part of legislation that will be voted on shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI end with those words finalising what I was saying prior to the luncheon adjournment. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 4 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003Eto omit subparagraph (i) of paragraph (c) of the definition of real estate agency work or agency work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4445cd2a3c248d78d9cc5378b84ac14\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000369\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 4 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000370\u0022\u003Eto omit subparagraph (v) of paragraph (c) of the definition of real estate agency work or agency work.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb6b49c001b6402789e5fb85b9ef30e3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000371\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 4 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000372\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (a) of the definition of transaction \u201Cgrant\u201D before \u201Csale\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c35938ea77534717a6ed87532c0db72f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000373\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 8 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000374\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ba270420c854d5a893ec3c3d990b5c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000375\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294acc420634349e694821fe07b104eff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e574c08762944f69af71aa2d891a6e34\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022343c853f423a44f8bf12fc812f72caf2\u0022\u003EPart 2  Real Estate Agents Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c544195ca8744a42ada8fed03fbe3f21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c544195ca8744a42ada8fed03fbe3f21\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want to labour the process, because I know that National Party members are very keen to debate the bill. They have sought to debate this bill; it is the one they will fight every inch on. It is a bill that is inherently about consumer protection, but I feel it is incumbent on me to address some points that have been made, and will continue to be made as we move through the parts of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI would like to make this point. One of the charges against me personally and against the Government is that somehow, in putting forward robust consumer legislation to protect consumers, as a representative of the Government I have labelled and sprayed the entire real estate industry as a bunch of land sharks. Well, I will say just two things. I invite members to get my press statements, from the first one that I put out right through to the latest. I invite them also to listen to this. On 7 June 2007 Murray Cleland, the National President of the Real Estate Institute, said in that wonderful journal of our time, the Papakura Courier: \u201CWe want to get rid of unethical operators as much as the Minister does because they damage the industry\u2019s reputation and do a great disservice to all the good,\u201D\u2014and I invite members to listen to this\u2014\u201Chard-working people in the industry who, as the Minister acknowledges, are the very great majority.\u201D Despite the fact that the National Party has continued to perpetrate the myth that this Government, in the form of myself, has labelled everybody in the real estate movement as a shark, as a deadbeat, and as dishonest, the fact is, as reported in many papers and as acknowledged by the president of the institute on 7 June 2007, the vast majority of this industry are good honourable folk. In fact I appointed one of them, Mr Murray Giera of Christchurch\u2014I know that Ms Wilkinson did not like this\u2014to the Real Estate Agents Licensing Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut real estate folk, who are also the victims, have said to me that they have had a gutsful of being tarred by the same brush as members of their industry who, through their actions, bring the reputation of all of them to the floor. Murray Giera said that to me at a function the other night. He is a good honest person, as many real estate agents are, but all occupations are judged by the lowest common denominator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will also comment on a couple of other points that have been raised. I found it exceptionally interesting that Mr Finlayson said that the time frame and the transition period for this bill were OK. Members should bear in mind that the time frame for the lawyers and conveyancers legislation\u2014a massive piece of work\u2014was 2 years, but the time frame for this bill is 14 months. Mr Worth had risen 5 minutes before him and said that it was not OK, that it was far too short. I invite those members to get their act together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EPart 2 provides robust legislative protection for consumers. I have been asked, and I will continue to be asked\u2014I am told that Mr Tisch said he would be asking the question continually\u2014what the mischief is that we are trying to solve. Those members are typical Tories. They listen to one side of the argument. They have not quoted one consumer who has had problems. They have not quoted one victim who has had problems. Those members stare into the stratosphere and ask us to please provide them with some answers, to please tell them where the problem is that we are trying to solve. Well, let me illustrate it. Caitlin and John Ottaway estimate that they lost $35,000 because their agent, Shaun Cosgrave\u2014who is no relation to me, I say for the record; it is a different spelling; it is from a different part of Ireland\u2014did not tell them that an apartment complex was planned for the site right next to their doorstep. Shaun Cosgrave was fined $750. I believe he was warned by some of our agencies about his conduct. Then what happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022873348525581412ab7e0c2c41c0afb29\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could the Minister tell us which aspect of Part 2 he is addressing? Part 2 deals with the Real Estate Agents Authority. He took no part in the debate on Part 1. His first intervention this afternoon has been to comment on clause 2, the commencement clause, which we can deal with later on. He seems to be all over the place. It is quite entertaining to watch him, because it is like watching feeding time at the zoo. If he could confine himself to Part 2, it would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bdd4647827346a490fd062c36b1625a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Finlayson. I am sure the Minister is aware of the situation, and I ask him to come to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022307f93efa93140bd94ca8d1762434157\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking to Part 2, \u201CReal Estate Agents Authority\u201D, and the authority is charged\u2014as the member may know, given that he is a learned lawyer\u2014with protecting consumers. To illustrate the need for an authority to look after consumers, and also to address some of the points that have been made, I will quote another case. But first I will just add that Mr Cosgrave was then given the Harcourts gold award for customer service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe second case I will quote also illustrates the need for an authority such as the one in Part 2. [Interruption] Yes, because there is a need for an authority to stop these cases from happening again. Bronwyn Hilbron died after waiting almost 3 years for the Real Estate Institute to deal with her complaint over the sale of her house. She claimed that an agent had undersold it by $88,000. She chose the existing legislative route, which was the institute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAn honest agent said to me that there is a need for a Real Estate Agents Authority. He has had a vexatious claim\u2014in his view\u2014taken against him, and he has waited for years and years for the legislative body to deal with his case. The authority is not just for those who are selling and buying property; we need an authority to expedite cases, so that honest, honourable real estate folk do not have the sword of Damocles hanging over them for years. To use the popular phrase that Ms Wilkinson uses, justice delayed is justice denied. That also applies to the real estate agents who cannot get cases against them heard, because there are delays in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EReal estate agents have said to me that they need an independent authority because the system does not work. I believe that it was the Chief Executive Officer of Harcourts, Mr Bryan Thomson, who said that even if his people are innocent, even if they are good honourable folk, if they go before a body that is perceived to be in-house\u2014the industry policing the industry\u2014and that body declares them to be innocent folk, because they are honourable people, then no one believes it. We hear bleating from the guy opposite who did not quite make it to Queen\u2019s Counsel level; he says he is a lawyer, but he has not cited one case. I find it interesting that National Party members have not cited one case or given one example of a constituent coming to them with a problem with this industry. They probably do not go to them because it would be a waste of time. I think the setting up of an authority will provide a wonderful opportunity to get rid of the bad guys in the industry. Those good honest souls, like Murray Giera and others, who toil away and do a damn good job of representing their clients and their profession, will have their reputations restored, and the profession\u2019s reputation will be restored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs we go through this debate, I will count how many times members opposite cite a case relating to any victim. If we listened to them, we would think that there was no problem\u2014absolutely no problem at all\u2014and that we do not need any consumer protection. Well, I invite them to talk to Sue Chetwin of Consumer New Zealand. I invite them to lift up a few pages from the newspapers and look at the research work done by the fourth estate\u2014no friends of ours, from time to time\u2014that highlights the need for legislation to protect victims. The victims also include the honourable, honest real estate folk who get done over because they cannot have their cases heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe hear a lot of posturing from National members, and they are digging in, but what are they digging in over? A basic piece of consumer protection legislation. The security guard people asked us to license them. Why? Because they wanted to get the rogues out of the system. Builders did the same. They wanted to get the bad guys out of the system, because their reputations were being tarnished. I say to Mr Brownlee that I gave the Real Estate Institute two opportunities. And I said publicly that I believe in self-regulation, because often it is tighter than what Parliament can do. But what the institute wanted to do was to up a few fines, twist a few penalties, but leave the process non-transparent, non-independent, and non-accountable. I think that would do a disservice to the many honourable folk in the real estate industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis is good legislation. The authority that we are setting up in this part of the bill will deal to the bad guys, will reinforce the good honest folk who work in the industry, and will ensure, I hope, that cases like that of Bronwyn Hilbron, who died and whose estate now has to take up the cudgels to try to recover what was rightfully hers, do not happen again. It would be really nice, it would be really wonderful, to hear some sort of sympathy from Opposition members for some of the people\u2014the many hundreds of people\u2014who have been done over, who have had bad experiences in this industry. But we will not hear those members say that, and do members know why I say that? Because Opposition members voted against the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 243 to Part 1, after saying that they supported them. They are all over the place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022eed475e8e0794cfbb4e88c01a1611617\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eed475e8e0794cfbb4e88c01a1611617\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder whether the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, might tell us why there is no fidelity fund attached to this authority. Why is he so confident that\u2014[Interruption] Well, he is the honourable member of Parliament one minute, and has a tattered career the next. That is how it happens: an honourable member one minute and a tattered career the next. That is how it goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a6dd90702841458c24b124f9201052\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Get to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f134a48eff54ee793560f0fdd33dcce\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not surprised that the Minister of Foreign Affairs is in the Chamber taking a great interest in the real estate bill, because after the election he is likely to have to get a job selling real estate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7fd4bb4e5b4457b2cc0ba74492d753\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This Parliament has put up for long enough with this member getting up, disregarding Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 Rulings day in, day out, and acting like a prize buffoon. I only raise this because there are some young people in the gallery today and they should not be subjected to this nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f672c19be334a319d43dfe2dd257f08\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f13d504715942e5bf47cbd9a2dd6a74\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I want to apologise to this Chamber, and to members like Mr Peters, for any concerns they might have. I would note, though, that today, in evidence to the Privileges Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0044c028307449395decad46c87b27c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Both members will be seated. I just remind members that when there is a point of order it is supposed to be heard in silence. In both cases there was chipping by both members. I take it that it is one all, at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217367ce0e0249cea0f7cb0e4a5f31a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. You just saw what has become the practice by this member. He sits on a very august authority as an arbiter and a neutral judge. He walks into this Chamber on the very day that he is meant to be a jurist somewhere else and he now wants to tell you about the evidence. That is my complaint about this kangaroo court that he is making of it. Not only is he just about to infringe Standing Orders on the Privileges Committee procedures, which apparently this morning were very, very big in his mind, but now he wants to offend against the rules of this Chamber as well. I ask you to bring him to order or to stop him speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11533897299437e8cb4e05d66937bb9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I just say there was an exchange and I was listening very carefully. I ask the member now to address the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08ca29a91a94e70a8844fafc8dd0723\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I will, but I expect that there will therefore be no further reference to Gerry Brownlee, Crown prosecutor, or, for that matter, the \u201CRt Hon\u201D Gerry Brownlee\u2014which I do not mind, in actual fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210defd27dcd84a779ed76d1302f4b09e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. You were asked by Mr Finlayson to bring the Minister to order\u2014wrongly, of course, because he was addressing the issue before the Committee. Now Mr Brownlee is now trying to raise an interjection, under the Standing Orders, that he finds offensive. Frankly, if he cannot take an interjection\u2014if the kitchen is too hot\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be8e14a93844038a686b5e9c823528d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have a yellow card in my pocket. It is just about to come out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e0431134314377831f7fa0456f93ce\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That would be the last thing I would want to cause you to have to do. [Interruption] I beg your pardon? Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229771eb2ecfa24641a6de398c9ad7bdf7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we get on with the debate. We have had our fun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f70dc9b83676445eb701e342eb0581a0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is serious. It is a serious point, and Mr Cosgrove, the Minister, was quite right to say there should be concerns about people getting ripped off in real estate transactions. He pointed out the very case that I believe was the genesis of this legislation in the first place: the extraordinary situation of one real estate agent in one of our northern cities who was given a real estate agent of the year award through an agency and then later was found to be quite corrupt in his practice. [Interruption] The Minister says that perhaps it stopped short of that. Certainly his practices were not acceptable in normal business practice, and people got burnt as a result of it. Indeed, the Minister himself outlined a number of cases where people got badly burnt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut I think simply putting together an authority to manage aspects of real estate agency functions, with the authority entirely appointed by the Minister, with practices developed only with the Minister\u2019s approval, and with ethical standards and statements of responsibility only according to what the Minister is prepared to approve, does little if there is not some sort of fidelity fund attached to it. New Zealanders pay some of the highest real estate agency fees in the world, and I would have thought that if the Government was so keen to establish yet another bureaucracy that comes under the purview of a Minister, then there might well have been a case for a fidelity fund to be established. I will lay this bet: that subsequent to the passing of this bill, and subsequent to the establishment of the Real Estate Agents Authority, the Minister himself will not accept any liability where there is bad dealing by those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think that makes the whole thing just a little bit thin. It makes it slightly a sham and it tends to indicate that the costs associated with this legislation, loaded on to the costs of selling\u2014and ultimately purchasing\u2014property will simply increase without any greater protection than is in place at the present time. It would be interesting for the Minister to take a call and say exactly what will come out of the new authority that will give people any greater surety about their dealings with real estate agents than they have at the present time. That would be an interesting answer from him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe do not doubt the sincerity with which he has brought this bill to the House; we do not doubt that. We know that everyone in this House is concerned about those cases that he raised. But each of us in our constituencies would observe that hundreds of houses are sold in a year, possibly even in a month, without the sorts of difficulties he outlined earlier. So we are a little perplexed by the need to set up this particular authority, and are even more perplexed that the authority\u2019s seven members are apparently all going to be appointed by the Minister, according to normal appointment practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022047e7992bffe48669bfa9beb89db1fd7\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Normal Labour practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d3db28426a64d20a668fead3702cc4c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague makes a comment that I will not dwell on, because we have had more of those appointments today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002294bf287374bf4dd89ecb2fa0e9bd64d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294bf287374bf4dd89ecb2fa0e9bd64d4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Again, there is a particular clause in Part 2 that I want to discuss. It is clause 17, \u201CMembership of Authority\u201D. I want the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, to confirm that he must name members of the authority within a couple of days of this legislation receiving Royal assent. If that is the case, then I say to the member he should have done some homework now as to whom he is going to appoint as the seven members of the authority. I think the Minister should rise and tell us who they are. I am suspicious that we will see a repeat of what we saw at the weekend when the Minister of Conservation appointed 52 Labour lackeys to the conservation boards around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e3df6309dca4b55a1227d22f368ca9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227db74ea8b314e13a851485a84847219\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Deputy Prime Minister laughs, but there is a history of this. We had a member here; nobody knew her name, and I had to ask the Parliamentary Library what it was. Her name was Dianne Yates. She got shunted out of Parliament at the whim of the Prime Minister and got about three or four prize appointments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022738108f111e047aa95e6ba4540acf89e\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237964458ae1e4f7488da6f93b12424c5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Four appointments. Well, one thing is for sure. She is too busy to be a member of this authority. [Interruption] I am talking about clause 17. I want to know who the members are. We know that two of them will be experienced people, as licensees or former licensees, but that leaves the appointment of five others. I want the Minister to confirm that when we talk about the member who must have \u201Cnot less than 7 years\u2019 legal experience\u201D, that is one Russell Fairbrother. He was the member of Parliament who was told he was not allowed to go on the list, and does not have a show of winning the Napier seat from our excellent candidate Chris Tremain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo three slots are now filled\u2014there are four left. I want to know whether the Minister himself would consider whether he would have a conflict of interest if, in fact, his name were to be advanced. I notice that he is well down the list that came out the other day, at No. 18. Against Kate Wilkinson in Waimakariri, he will not be back as a member of Parliament, so will he fill the first of the four vacancies still remaining on the membership of the authority? Then I want to know who the others are. Charles Chauvel, No. 27\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220685d9a4ee814204bc22d8a81d048519\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214444864b9074f38a5a0068557b5cab1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Charles Chauvel. He has not been here long, and he certainly has not done much to contribute. He is standing in the seat of \u014Chariu, so he does not have a show there and he knows it. He has been put down at No. 27.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a934301a7c44e8adb084820a612099\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. With respect, this member has been here some considerable time. One would think he might have learnt something in that time about the Standing Orders. This is a narrow debate, yet here he is, speculating on all the people who will not be on the authority under the pretence that he wants to know who will be. That was his opening gambit. Frankly, this is a lazy, indolent way of conducting a debate. It is typical of him, and we could expect better. I want you to make sure he does do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260650e4a4d3d4d31b9f8c2e89e8084ba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to continue. I had actually indicated to the member a couple of times\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229338626b6fdd4d2683309635fc9c74dd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairperson, I know you waved your hands, but the point I make is that within 2 days of this legislation receiving Royal assent, seven members of this authority are to be named. That is in the legislation. Now that we know the date for the election is 10 weeks away, there is a longstanding convention in this House that there will be consultation between at least the parties in this Parliament on the appointments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aa3a30c71b843f591323a03714824fd\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: There was a convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235701ff245434dec84879b99e67b5286\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There used to be a convention? Well, I would hope that this Minister, despite his bullying, belligerent, and arrogant attitude, would actually stick to the convention. I therefore think we have every right to know what plans he has for consulting members of the National Party about appointments to this authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe authority will have a very important job to do. It will deal with these hundreds of cowboys and land sharks who Mr Clayton Cosgrove says are in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a58383e311049a9b717702cf8c85e59\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e7f955fabc4831b361efd1d2f54775\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He agrees now! Only 5 minutes ago he took a call to say that there are not many of them, yet he now says there are hundreds of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo the authority will have a lot to do, and I want to make sure that it is not stacked with Labour Party lackeys and members of Parliament who know that they are in the last few weeks of sitting in this House, because they have been put down on that Labour list well and truly towards the unwinnable positions. I think it is a very fair question for us to be asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ca02d9a569e481fbb2b9f1fdc209a3b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Lesley Soper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed07475a66904a79b74b55ecce54e68e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What is happening to Lesley Soper? She would probably be all right on this. But I think we have a very fair question to ask about the process for appointment\u2014what work has been done so far to find who those seven members are, and, most important, whether the Minister is prepared to consult before those appointments are made. They are very clear questions, and I look forward to the Minister taking a call and answering them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0835a62884849bea63b5d4d3882211a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0835a62884849bea63b5d4d3882211a\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I draw to the Committee\u2019s attention a string of amendments that I have moved to various clauses in Parts 2, 3, and 6 of the Real Estate Agents Bill. The amendments are designed to achieve two principal objectives. There are amendments to clause 16(3), to clause 19(c), to insert new clause 34A, and to omit clause 155(a) because of the provision in new clause 34A relating to industry training procedures. Those amendments are designed to ensure that the industry training organisation for the real estate sector is actually consistent with all other industry training organisations in the tertiary sector in terms of the way that it operates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOne of the amendments, for instance\u2014that to clause 19(c)\u2014proposes the radical suggestion that \u201CThe authority must consult with the industry training organisation for the real estate industry.\u201D It is very hard to see how that will be opposed, but I suspect the Government and the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, who gave my original amendments not even cursory consideration because he is so committed to the future of this industry, will find a way to oppose it. He will also find a way to oppose my amendment to clause 16(3), which omits the words \u201Csubsection (1)\u201D and substitutes \u201Cthis Act\u201D, because that is clearly subversive. Those amendments are in the best interests of making this unworkable legislation more workable than it could ever hope to be as it stands at the moment. I have also included amendments to three provisions in clause 34, relating to consumer protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI would have thought the Minister and this Government would relish these amendments, because\u2014as we have heard right throughout this debate\u2014this is a consumer protection bill. It just imposes more costs on consumers and it will not work, but according to the Minister it is a consumer protection bill. So anything that is in the interests of consumer protection, I would have expected this Minister, who clearly knows all and understands all, to be supportive of. I would have expected the Minister to embrace my amendment to clause 34(1)(c), which inserts the words \u201Cin the interests of the public\u201D. That is what he says this bill is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI submit those amendments for the consideration of the House, and I make the observation that the Minister, who professes such concern about consumers, is actually engaged in a political vendetta. I have heard the cases that he has cited as evidence. The trouble is that they are the same cases I have heard cited for the nearly 18 months that this bill has been on the drawing board. In my 24 years as a member of Parliament, I have not had one case involving a real estate agent drawn to my attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0081eddf7f6415584b4fcb0262d5c96\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t that say something about you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b071bd66b984700aa50c3a25deceb54\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that says something about me. Well, that is actually a wonderful summary of what this member actually believes that this legislation is all about. The issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895c952074144bbab84c8802841f4b59\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve dished it out for the last 2 days, so don\u2019t get holier-than-thou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ef9b73184841ea950423537956e227\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is indulging in all sorts of petty abuse, when he should actually be indulging in making this bill workable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Minister has presided over complete disruption: a regime that is unworkable, and a bill that will have to be amended, irrespective of whatever happens in this Committee, because of the bull-at-a-gate way in which he has gone about it. If he wants to say to the homeowners of New Zealand that that is the standard he seeks, that is well and good. If he wants to say to the real estate industry of New Zealand that he does not care what it thinks, that is well and good. But let him be up front in the House and say those are his motivations, not resort to crocodile tears about a few, a handful of, cases that have been drawn to his attention. Earlier on, when this bill was around in its early stages, I made a criticism of the Minister, and I received one public response in support of him\u2014one public response that supported his stand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere is a need to tidy up the legislation. I think we all accept that. But this bill does not do that. The amendments I am proposing will actually make an unworkable piece of legislation workable. If the Minister was serious in his intent he would adopt them, but I bet that he will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022c877509625ff497088f1cf7901eac08c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c877509625ff497088f1cf7901eac08c\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I put on the record that National will be supporting the amendments of Mr Dunne because they are sensible. We want good consumer protection legislation, but this is not it. I rise to take a call in relation to Part 2, which relates to the Real Estate Agents Authority, but I would like to just mention a couple of things that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, has said. First of all, he said I did not like the appointment of Murray Giera on the board. The Minister might like to recollect that actually I was approached by the Christchurch real estate agents wondering what the delay was in making the ministerial appointment on the board in the first place. It was not until my office contacted the Minister\u2019s office that that board appointment was actually made. So I think it is a little trite of the Minister to suggest that I did not like it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThen he challenged the National members to come up with one case\u2014just one case. Well, I will come up with two, and if he cares to read them, rather than just quoting some populist bylines, he might know more about the industry and might learn more about the industry. Those cases were Sime and Lethbridge in 2002\u2014both High Court cases. In both those cases the High Court noted that the alleged misconduct was insufficiently serious to meet the high statutory criteria for suspension and cancellation, and would have been more properly dealt with by the regional disciplinary committee if it had been operating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EOne can ask why we do not have a regional disciplinary committee. The reason is that the Government did not appoint one. It was its responsibility but it did not appoint one. In fact, I see that it has not appointed one for 10 years. So the delay that has been referred to by the Minister is a delay of his own making and not a delay by the Real Estate Institute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe answer was \u201Cbecause they had other priorities\u201D. In fact, 4 years ago\u2014even then, 4 years ago\u2014Dr Worth asked the question: \u201CIs it correct that there is a review of the Real Estate Agents Act 1976 in progress, and if so, what is the status of that review?\u201D. That was 4 years ago. The response was: \u201CThe review was suspended at the start of the 2004/2005 financial year due to other legislative and policy priorities.\u201D So any question of delay is certainly not due to the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand. It is due to the Minister\u2019s own department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn fact, we talk about the fees, fines, and small quantum of fines that are provided for under the old Real Estate Agents Act. I will come to that issue later, but I have corroboration that there were 4 approaches\u2014officially\u2014in the last 10 years when the respective Minister responsible had been approached to increase those fines. So any suggestion of delays on behalf of the Real Estate Institute is frankly quite fatuous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ETurning to the Real Estate Agents Authority that is to be established as a Crown entity under Part 2 of the Real Estate Agents Bill, I say that we support measures to have good consumer protection legislation. But this is not it. As Mr Dunne has rightly said, if the Minister in the chair had bothered to set up regional disciplinary committees, and had bothered to increase the fines, we would have had some workable legislation, but instead he has taken a huge sledgehammer to what is just a nut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe authority\u2019s functions are set out in clause 16, and it is really rather interesting, because throughout the bill it talks about a registrar. This shows the incompetence of the Minister in the chair, to be honest, because throughout the bill it talks about the registrar, but it had no provision whatsoever as to who that registrar was, and how that registrar was to be appointed. That had to be amended at the Justice and Electorate Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister in the chair to seek the call. He did not seek the call in relation to my queries on Part 1 as to what exactly real estate agency work was, what the definition of residential property was\u2014whether it did or did not include lifestyle properties\u2014and what the definition of transaction was, so I would imagine that he will not seek a call on this question either, which is in relation to the membership of the authority. As has already been pointed out by my colleague the Hon David Carter, the authority is to have a membership of no more than seven members. Members will recall that in the original draft of the bill there was going to be no industry representation on this authority whatsoever. Nobody with any knowledge whatsoever of the real estate business was going to be a member of this authority, and when we think of what the authority\u2019s function will be, which is to administer the whole regime for the agents, we see it as totally negligent to have even thought about having an authority appointed by the Minister, with no industry representation. Admittedly, there now is industry representation, and the Minister must appoint at least two members who are licensees or former licensees. So at least now there will be some industry representation on that authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister what he means in his Supplementary Order Paper when he is amending clause 17 to say that the Minister must consult with the Real Estate Institute when making the first appointment of licensees or former licensees. Why just the first appointment? I would like the Minister in the chair to answer that. Why just the first one? Surely the consultation should also apply to the second appointment, and the third and subsequent ones. Why just the first appointment? That question may be too difficult for the Minister in the chair, but we still hope that perhaps he will take this matter seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other issue I would like to raise is in relation to the practice rules. Clause 20 in Part 2 states: \u201CPractice rules are made by the Authority with the approval of the Minister . . . \u201D. If it is anything like the code of ethics and conduct under the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, I suspect there will be considerable delays in the Minister approving even those. Under the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act it took over 6 months for the code to come off the Minister\u2019s desk with some sort of approval. If that is the sort of expeditious treatment that this Minister will seriously give the real estate industry, then I suggest that perhaps he should take another look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EClause 24 also relates to the prescription of fees that the authority can impose. There are fees payable from time to time. There is then an operational levy to fund the costs of the authority, and a disciplinary levy. That is three different types of fees. The question that has to be asked is what sort of quantum of levy and fee the Minister envisages, because with the bureaucracy he has built into this real estate agent regime, which is similar to what he built into the housing and building regime, we might expect a somewhat hefty operational levy, disciplinary levy, and fee. As we know, those fees will be handed down and passed on to the consumer. At the end of the day it will be the consumer, not the industry, who will be paying for this legislation. If this bill is being enacted for the protection of the consumer\u2014to give the consumer confidence in the real estate industry, to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate work, and to protect the interests of consumers\u2014then it seems to me that one of the striking things this legislation will do is increase the costs to that consumer. I wonder whether it is the consumer the Minister has in mind or whether it is just more political posturing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cef7bc3cc44747689adf49f26aebe6e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cef7bc3cc44747689adf49f26aebe6e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As somebody who has had considerable experience of working with the legislation and the real estate industry over a long period of time, I thought the Committee and the public should be alerted to the kind of debate that is taking place today on Part 2 of the Real Estate Agents Bill. I am hearing from the National Party that everything is fine out there and nothing needs to be done. But I cannot find anybody in the real estate industry with any experience who says that. I cannot find anybody who says everything is fine and nothing needs to be done, but I have just heard a procession of National Party members illustrate the fact that they understand nothing about business in New Zealand and claim that everything is fine and above board right now. They cannot point to anybody associated with the industry who would argue that nothing needs to be done, but nevertheless they say their idea is to do nothing, which is their policy on everything, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3d2a2837134f64aecb10c5aebc77a2\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Carter said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d7929786dc4e3a9a0de259966c7978\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Carter said that; Kate Wilkinson said that. She did not get to talk about KiwiSaver, but I want to know whether she had a clearance from John Key to say what she did say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELet us be honest. Here we have a circumstance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc28b63e382a4e2e954e31a4a42a65dc\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Where did the cheque go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df5548164814448baa90f49cdf41ba57\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell the member what the cheque did not do, and that is dodge GST. That is a criminal offence, and the GST has still not been paid. That is what the cheque did not do. But, to come back to the point here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022047bdcfe757447a8852489d20fea5b89\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Just pay up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572a975b7a56466c8de66d7388a133d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: My argument to the member is to look in the mirror and just pay the GST, or else to keep quiet. How Mr Carter has made the front bench is a matter of bewilderment to all his colleagues. It must be because of something else, like patronage of the party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMembers are concerned about who will make up the seven people on the so-called authority. Who suggested that there should be people from the real estate industry with substantial and requisite experience on the authority? It was New Zealand First that argued for that; I am sure the Minister will not argue against that. That is what we did. We sought the opinion of the industry and tried to get some balance put into legislation that seeks to protect the consumer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAfter all, it was Adam Smith who said that men of business seldom meet for food or entertainment without their conversation soon turning to a conspiracy against the public. And that, in the case of this industry, has happened far too many times. Oh, I know why Gerry Brownlee is shaking his head. That is all he knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a08f2c95f8e4fb69571a9b628c01942\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the fidelity fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221216d40d82c84ef19fe8c498dd01233f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the fidelity fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227673e9d050a740aa90491e3e7fe009a0\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298cb58d941944c05a8ead754cb29eabb\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, here we go; is this not wonderful? The member shouts out that. He is meant to be the spokesperson from National on this bill, but he does not know what its provisions are\u2014or are not\u2014and now he is asking me about them. That is typical of Gerry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d619b309e7574b1fbede8f1fcb50caae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member should keep to the debate. This is a narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223633fd80ea9f48d59ac5eeb04c123ac5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: One has to wonder how someone like that could get promoted so far up the ranks in what used to be a great party, when he acts like an absolute buffoon, knows nothing about the law or legislation, and thinks noise means volume. Well, I tell Mr Brownlee that it does not mean that. Substance, in the end, is what matters around here, not just a bombastic display of Billy Bunter-ism. It will not work any more, and that is a fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI come back to the point, which is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6311366265b41df913a2370d057dab5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about the fidelity fund. Who gets the fidelity fund? It\u2019s not in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222893541857e243999bf6d1e72ce5cfae\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about the membership of the board. Does the member mind if I just get through that first? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is rather critical that we have people who, when they come to a tribunal situation, understand the requirements of the industry, and, I tell Mr Brownlee, it is important that those people are not biased, are not prejudiced, and have not made up their minds before they hear a case. It is important that they are prepared to wait until all the facts before them are heard before they make up their minds. As Mr Finlayson will tell members, that is how good tribunal people show responsibility, rather than acting like those with so much arrogance\u2014a quality I have seen Mr Brownlee display\u2014that they make up their minds before they hear any of the evidence. We do not want that sort of person to be on the Real Estate Agents Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe authority should have people on it who are neutral, independent, but experienced enough to ask, on behalf of the consumer and on behalf of the real estate person against whom the complaint has been lodged, what the facts are and where the truth possibly lies\u2014but who first of all ask to hear all the facts, all the provisions, that relate to the case. That is rather important, because it is no use to have an authority if we put people on it who walk in and, before the case is half heard, rush out, go to the media, and start to say something else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0d42c3728944ccd8f45ea25816111e6\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt the right honourable member, but he is concentrating on Part 4. He is talking about the bodies that will adjudicate on complaints. There are two types of committees: there is the complaints assessment committee, and the actual disciplinary tribunal. The authority appoints those bodies, which then adjudicate. So the member really has to come back to Part 2. It would be quite a novelty to hear him say something about Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf2adc31718b44aa819dde04034a417f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Finlayson. Actually, the member\u2019s time is just about up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cde9246f6664abcb410fb2f11b8b5ba\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have just heard Mr Finlayson, \u201CQC (Failed)\u201D, with his argument. It is not correct, of course, because all of the other authorities arise from the Real Estate Agents Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3824f9094b14bd58f121fc32359f94b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3824f9094b14bd58f121fc32359f94b\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I will take up a couple of issues in Part 2 of the Real Estate Agents Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe first is subclause (3) of clause 16, \u201CAuthority\u2019s functions\u201D. It talks about the industry training organisation, and raises the spectre in my mind that we will have two very strong, competing bodies. I would like the Minister to explain to me what the relationship will be like between the Real Estate Authority and the industry training organisation. Clause 16(1) runs through the various functions of the authority. It will set up a register to register licensees: \u201C(b) ensure that the register of licensees is established, kept, and maintained;\u201D. It will develop rules, it will develop consumer information, and it will \u201C(f) develop and provide consumer information on matters relating to the provision of real estate services, including providing the public with information on how to make a complaint;\u201D. There is a list of provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI come to a provision pertaining to the amendments on the Supplementary Order Paper of the Hon Peter Dunne, which National will be supporting. Subclause (3) states: \u201CFor the avoidance of doubt, nothing in subsection (1) affects the role of an industry training organisation for the time being recognised under the Industry Training Act 1992 as an industry training organisation for the real estate industry.\u201D That is the first point on which I want some clarification. Is there an intention to move the industry training organisation to the Real Estate Agents Authority? If we read that provision carefully, we see that it states \u201Cthe role of an industry training organisation for the time being \u2026\u201D. I would like the Minister to clarify what he intends there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would like the Minister to tell me whether he heard any complaints from the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand about recognition of qualifications obtained in Australia. When I visited the institute in Auckland, I heard a lot about the inequity in terms of the qualification that agents require to be registered in Australia. Effectively, what was happening was that a lot of people would go from New Zealand across to Australia for a course of about a week, and when they came back they would be recognised as fully fledged, qualified real estate agents. The second question I would like the Minister to address is whether, while he was developing this bill, he took that matter into consideration, or was it, in actual fact, outside the scope of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen we turn to clause 19 and read of the continuing education function of the authority, we can understand the confusion and concern that exist among the industry training organisation. Clause 19, \u201CContinuing education\u201D, states: \u201CThe Authority may, by notice in the Gazette, make practice rules \u2026\u201D, and it talks about continuing education. That is professional development, and it will require qualifications to be designed and signed off. There will be tremendous friction within the industry unless action is taken immediately to make sure there is seamlessness between the authority and the industry training organisation. Qualifications will have to be developed, and the authority is being empowered to do that, but I do not see any ability to bridge that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe go on to clause 21, \u201CCriteria in relation to approval of practice rules by Minister\u201D. The provision talks about the authority\u2019s relationship with the Minister. It talks about principles, and I say to the Minister that paragraph (c) talks about \u201Cthe consistency of the rules with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations:\u201D. I know that it might be drawing a long bow, but I would like to think that serious consideration was given to the need for equal qualifications between Australia and New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae2e55662c1248a5aeadc605d86f4484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae2e55662c1248a5aeadc605d86f4484\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask the Minister a couple of questions about Part 2, several clauses of which, as the Hon David Carter said, will come into effect the day after the date on which the legislation receives the Royal assent. That particularly relates to the establishment of the authority to which members have been referring, with the exception of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, who was really addressing the organisations in Part 4. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI want to make one point immediately, and that is that the Supplementary Order Paper of Mr Dunne raises a very sensible point, which I believe the Committee should adopt. It involves an insertion into clause 17 of subclause (3B), which I will come to in a minute. Once the authority is set up, clause 16 provides that one of its functions will be to set professional standards for agents, and the Committee inserted a subclause (3) into clause 16 that made it clear that the industry training organisation currently in existence would continue to have a role. That is a very important point, because when we come over to clause 19, there is a new provision that deals with continuing education. And I suggest to the Committee that that is a very good suggestion, because all industries and professions should have mandatory continuing education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThis is where clause 17 is so important. If there is to be mandatory continuing education, then it makes sense that the industry training organisations, which are charged with the training required before one can enter the real estate industry, should continue to have a role in the area of continuing education. That is why it is important for the Minister to have a duty to consult with the industry training organisations when making the first appointment of licensees or former licensees. The proposal of Mr Dunne makes a lot of sense about the industry training organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point follows on from what Mr Carter said. Immediately after this legislation comes into force, the authority will be established. It is to consist of no more than seven members. It will immediately have a role to undertake, and given that this legislation could receive the Royal assent very quickly if it is passed, I think we are entitled to know the sorts of persons the Minister is proposing to appoint and whether there will be consultation. Are we going to have a repeat of what has been going on with the conservation board, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, Creative New Zealand, Te Waka Toi, and the Human Rights Commission? All sorts of appointments are being made without any reference to the National Party whatsoever. Will we see Ann Hartley, Mike Williams, Eamon Daly, Georgina Beyer\u2014well, probably not Georgina Beyer, because she has outlived her usefulness to the Labour Party, and it has not done anything for her\u2014or Gary Moore, the former Mayor of Christchurch, in this position? Are these the sorts of people who will be appointed to this authority? I think we are entitled to know, and we are also entitled to know whether there will be consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next issue I want to touch on is that of fees and levies. It was addressed in a preliminary way by Ms Wilkinson, because, as she said, clauses 24, 25, and 26 deal with certain types of fees and levies, and the Real Estate Agents Authority will be in a position to prescribe fees. As we have said all along, the National Party has concerns about the bureaucratic nature of what is being set up under this legislation, and we are concerned that fees and levies could be enormous, especially in the preliminary stages as the authority, the complaints assessment committees, and the disciplinary tribunal are set up. I would like to have some kind of indication as to whether the Minister has received any general advice on the sort of levy or fee that would be payable, because one can rest assured that those fees ultimately will end up being borne by the consumer. Indeed, one of the issues that was raised, which was the subject of a submission to the select committee, was that of consultation over fees and levels of fees. What sorts of levels does the Minister think are acceptable? Should there be consultation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e50e104142bb49d6a66038d9869b4b8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e50e104142bb49d6a66038d9869b4b8b\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E In rising to address Part 2, I say that it is a bit of a concern for National that there are some glaring omissions within legislation that is meant to provide good consumer protection. The exclusion of property managers from the regime is a matter of some concern, because it creates inequities within this bill. I would like an explanation from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, as to why that is the case, if this is such a good piece of consumer protection from the cowboys and the land sharks\u2014so-called by the Minister on a number of occasions. It is interesting. In my travels throughout New Zealand, I frequently pop in and out of real estate agents\u2019 offices, and they say things about the Minister that are never very complimentary. They ask me about that man\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e04a9af7d7541f29f9695474546e9f0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The angry man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102c3f3ecd94465dbae5e03b4fb5ff99\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the angry man\u2014who will lose his seat at the next election, and why is he going to lose it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d560528dec6846c2b4f146591b8880c3\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287f0f943f9846f9accbc90aaf6d00f6\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Clayton Cosgrove. I will restrict my comments to the Minister in question, Clayton Cosgrove. He is the man who is hated by every real estate agent I come across\u2014probably every real estate agent in the land. Why do they hate him? Who wants to be called a land shark? Who wants to be called a cowboy by a Minister of the Crown? And what does this Minister do to fix these land sharks and cowboys? He brings forward to the House the Real Estate Agents Bill. The trouble with the bill is that it has some glaring omissions. It does not even address the issue of property managers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI did not sit in on the submissions, but I understand that a number of very strong submissions were made to the select committee about the inequities in not making provision for property managers within this bill. Those of us who have children going out into the world and becoming tenants in properties, or flatting if they are students, or going into the workforce, know that they are the very vulnerable young people who have to come into contact with property managers. It seems to me to be a glaring omission on the part of this Government, which touts itself as the champion of consumer protection, to turn a blind eye to those very people within this Real Estate Agents Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill is not worth much if it does not address the real issues being faced particularly by young people who have to deal with property managers. The submitters to this bill did not consider that the provisions for property management in the Residential Tenancies Act 1986\u2014which, of course, relate primarily to relationships between parties as tenants, owners, and property managers\u2014are sufficient to ensure that consumers are protected in property management transactions. So what does the Minister propose to do about it? He proposes to conduct a review. Well, that does not provide much comfort to those people who deal on a day-to-day basis with property managers. National\u2019s view is that this bill should include property managers within it, and without doing that the Minister\u2019s fine words about cowboys and land sharks remain very pertinent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Peter Dunne really hit the nail on the head when he said the Minister was indulging in petty abuse. That is what he has been doing, and that is what he has been doing out in the electorates all around New Zealand. Well, I say to the Minister that the real estate agents have heard him, they have made up their minds about him, and they have no faith in this bill that the Government is putting forward. There are glaring omissions in the bill, and just one of those is the exclusion of property managers. This is not a good consumer protection bill. National supports good consumer protection legislation, but this is not it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223399ba5d1c3f402fa0073c1b0b57e97a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223399ba5d1c3f402fa0073c1b0b57e97a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d8669d394de44b8ba34ef756914f9487\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000495\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 16 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000496\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3) \u201Csubsection (1)\u201D and substitute \u201Cthis Act\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224430309d3b634aad8e3c50c0f7f12656\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000497\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 19 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000498\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (c) and substitute the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000499\u0022\u003E(c)\tThe Authority must consult with the industry training organisation for the real estate industry.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278efac8e98924b7da0485e60b8aa9c9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000500\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000501\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002233fa4d4854264dbda1637da64624d336\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce76fe00fd1e45c79481ea89809a97d8\u0022\u003EPart 3  Licensing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002252695196140243c0b685fa3f3c3d3e7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252695196140243c0b685fa3f3c3d3e7c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As we move to Part 3, \u201CLicensing\u201D, we come to the very nuts and bolts of this legislation. This is the part where we are talking about how one becomes licensed, how a licence is suspended, how a licence is cancelled, how a licence is renewed, etc. We come to the very essence of this legislation as it impacts on the real players within the industry, and I am talking about the real estate agents themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want the Committee to note that we now have a fresh Minister in the chair, the Hon Shane Jones, and to note also that some valuable questions raised in the previous discussion remain unanswered, because Mr Cosgrove, who was then the Minister in the chair, decided not to answer the legitimate questions put by members of the National Party. In referring to clause 16, I notice that when we are talking about the nuts and bolts of the licensing, as in Part 3, this is a significant function of the authority. Therefore, I say it is important that we are absolutely assured today by the Minister in the chair that consideration has been given to who the members of the authority are. It is my understanding that following the conclusion of the Committee stage of the debate we will move to the third reading, later on today. If that is the case, then this legislation will have the Royal assent in the early part of next week\u2014say, on Monday or Tuesday, depending on how busy our very distinguished Governor-General is. On that basis, the Minister has to have revealed on the day after that who the members of the authority are, because those members will then have responsibility for administering the licensing regime of Part 3, which affects every person participating as a real estate agent within this industry and affects people who want to enter the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI think that the least the Minister in the chair, the Hon Shane Jones, could do is to rise to his feet and assure the members of this Committee that due consideration has been given to the appointment of members to the authority. Furthermore, he should assure members\u2014and maybe this has happened with my colleague Simon Power, with regard to the normal conventions that have applied in this House for a long, long period of time; decades in fact\u2014that there has been a reasonable consensus between and consultation with other political parties as to the membership of this authority. If, as we are discussing in Part 3, we are to end up with a licensing regime administered by an authority that has not been appointed in a fair and open manner, then this legislation will not be enduring. For example, it might be an authority that could be stacked with Labour Party lackeys. I note that it is now 32 years since we last had reforming legislation involving the real estate industry, and I do not want to see this legislation coming back because it was rammed through without a fair and consensual discussion in Parliament on the membership of that authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI hope that Shane Jones will be more cooperative than the bullying, arrogant Minister whom we had earlier, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, but I think that this Committee has every right to know whether those appointments have been considered, whether they have been approved by a Cabinet process, and, if so, I ask why the Minister cannot simply tell us who they are today. Unless that authority has the confidence of this Parliament and, more important, has the confidence of the industry, this legislation and the licensing regime we are now debating in Part 3 will not be enduring, and I think it would be a shame for this House if that is the process the Minister Shane Jones is prepared to endorse in Parliament this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbcd9a4bedbf4c118a3aeb1a4657ac10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbcd9a4bedbf4c118a3aeb1a4657ac10\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will deal with several aspects of Part 3, \u201CLicensing\u201D. I endorse the comments Mr David Carter has made, because a key person in this licensing regime will be the registrar, and in the part that we have just dealt with, clause 31A provides that the authority is to appoint the registrar. So it is extremely important that the body that appoints the registrar is made up of competent people and that it is not a pay-off for simply leaving Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut I come to Mr Dunne\u2019s proposed amendments, because I submit that they are very good indeed. He says that he would make three changes to clause 34, and they are designed to ensure that the authority will have broad and full criteria on which to make the decision on the granting and retaining of licences. Again, this is intended to ensure that the consumer is properly protected. Clause 34(1) deals with the entitlement to a licence as an agent or a branch manager, and an individual must satisfy the registrar that he or she meets the criteria set out in that subclause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOne of those criteria is that the person is to be a fit and proper person to hold a licence. Mr Dunne is suggesting in the first of his proposed amendments that before the words \u201Cis a fit\u201D, we should insert the phrase \u201Cin the interests of the public\u201D. I fail to see how there could be any objection to that proposal. It emphasises the fact that it must be consumer protection legislation. Ultimately, it is in the interests of the public, and to spell that out very carefully causes no harm whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second proposal relates to clause 34(1)(e), which deals with the experience that the proposed agent or branch manager must have had before appointment. Mr Dunne\u2019s suggestion is that instead of having 2 years\u2019 experience within the 10 years preceding the application, this person must have had, during the preceding 5 years, at least 3 years\u2019 practical experience working full-time or working primarily, and predominantly, in real estate agency work. Again I suggest that as this is supposedly consumer protection legislation the Dunne formula is to be preferred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe third, and final, change is to clause 34(2), which provides that an individual may be licensed as a sales person if the individual satisfies the registrar of various matters. The critical one for current purposes is clause 34(2)(c), and again it is the fit and proper person test, and Mr Dunne has suggested, again, the insertion of the phrase: \u201Cin the interests of the public\u201D. I suggest to the Committee that these changes are sensible. They make the clause that much better, and I certainly support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe other point I wish to address concerns clause 50. This is another backdown by the Minister. There was extensive debate in the Justice and Electoral Committee about the desirability of this clause, and whether the chief executive of the Ministry of Justice should report to the Minister as to whether clause 49, which deals with the employment status of a salesperson, should continue to be appropriate. There was considerable debate. The Labour members were adamant that clause 50 should be retained, but it is very interesting to observe that the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 243 proposes to omit this clause\u2014another win for the National Party, which had argued the clause was inappropriate and did not sit happily in consumer protection legislation, and if it was to be retained it should be in employment legislation, and the person doing the review should be the chief executive of the Department of Labour. So having adopted a stubborn approach to clause 50, and having had his minions argue the case strongly for the retention of clause 50 in the select committee, the Minister has cut them off at the knee caps because clause 50 is to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82420c7125c4905a7daeafed5485e64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82420c7125c4905a7daeafed5485e64\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 3 of the Real Estate Agents Bill, and following on from my colleague Mr Finlayson, I do urge the Committee to consider the proposals submitted by Mr Dunne with those very sensible and consumer protection-related amendments. I do urge the Chamber with some scepticism, because when one has the Government of the day voting against a provision that says the authority must consult with the industry training organisation for the real estate industry, one has to wonder whether they are trying to create and legislate good law or whether it is still just that political posturing. This is a so-called listening Government, but it does not listen to common sense. These amendments suggested by Mr Dunne, as he rightly said, are hardly subversive, they are hardly radical, and they actually do improve the consumer protection of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ELike my colleague Mr Finlayson, I want to touch on a few clauses in Part 3. The first one is the entitlement to the licence, which is in clause 34. It states that \u201CAn individual may be licensed as an agent or a branch manager if \u2026 the individual (a) has attained the age of 18 years; and (b) is not prohibited from holding a licence \u2026 ; and (c) is a fit and proper person to hold a licence; and (d) has the prescribed qualifications; and (e) has obtained 2 years\u2019 experience in real estate agency work within the 10 years preceding the application to be licensed \u2026 \u201D . \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI am aware that the Minister has an amendment in Supplementary Order Paper 243 that will increase that experience to 3 years in the 10 years preceding the application. Mr Dunne\u2019s amendment will tighten that and add more protection for the consumer by specifying the experience as 3 years\u2019 experience in real estate agency work within the 5 years preceding the application. That is much better for the consumer, and if this Government really were a listening Government, then it would certainly vote in favour of the amendment proposed by Mr Dunne. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt was raised during the select committee process whether 18 years of age was actually old enough for a person to be buying and selling on behalf of another person his or her most valuable asset\u2014a home. Often it is the most important significant purchase that any family in New Zealand makes, and I wonder whether a person who is 18 years of age is sufficiently old or sufficiently experienced to do that. I think that when we talk about ages, there are so many different age limits littered throughout our legislation, but when one has the very same Minister who on the one hand says that a person of 18 years of age is not old enough to buy a beer\u2014because he voted against that in the sale of liquor legislation\u2014but that an 18-year-old is old enough to buy and sell someone\u2019s most prized possession, a house, then one has to wonder about the consistency of that Minister\u2019s judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other clause I really want to mention in relation to Part 3 is clause 48. Clause 48(1) states: \u201CA salesperson must, in carrying out any agency work, be properly supervised and managed by an agent or a branch manager.\u201D It then specifies: \u201CIn this section properly supervised and managed means that the agency work is carried out under such direction and control of either a branch manager or an agent as is sufficient to ensure\u2014(a) that the work is performed competently; and (b) that the work complies with the requirements of this Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EOn first reading, that might seem quite sensible, but if one goes back to the original Real Estate Agents Act, section 54(2) contains the phrase \u201Ceffective control\u201D. The wording of that is: \u201CEvery branch office of a real estate agent \u2026 shall be under the effective control of a person approved by the Board,\u201D. So we have changed the terminology from \u201Ceffective control\u201D to \u201Cproperly supervised and managed\u201D. The difficulty with changing phraseology and terminology in legislation is that one has to build up a whole new supply of cases to actually explain and verify what that means. Considerable case law already exists as to what \u201Ceffective control\u201D is. We have now changed that to \u201Cproperly supervised and managed\u201D, and my concern is that this will lead to uncertainty, and now a new load of case law, which will try to interpret Parliament\u2019s intentions. It will also try to distinguish the difference between \u201Ceffective control\u201D and \u201Cproperly supervised and managed\u201D, and will try to work out what the intention of Parliament was in relation to this new definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe have to ask ourselves whether this actually adds anything to the consumer protection nature or element of this legislation that could not have been satisfied by using the tried and true terminology of \u201Ceffective control\u201D. I would like the Minister to take a call on that, because I think that is very important, and that we have a duty as legislators not to be reckless when we are making law, and to me it is certainly not contentious, but it is going towards better law-making. I would like the Minister to give us his views of that change in terminology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other clause that I will briefly mention is clause 50, which has been deleted by the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 243. National will certainly be voting in favour of that one. It concerns the 5-yearly review of the employment status of salespersons. Having that 5-yearly review hanging over the heads of salespersons was just too untenable and uncertain and really did not add much to the debate. There is no reason whatsoever why salespeople cannot make the choice to be employed on an employment basis or on an independent contract basis\u2014a contract of service as opposed to a contract for service\u2014and, accordingly, that review has now been deleted from the bill by virtue of the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, and we certainly approve of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAnother concern, however, in relation to the employment status of salespersons, is whether changing the terminology to \u201Cproperly supervised and managed\u201D as opposed to \u201Ceffective control\u201D implies changes to the employment status of salespersons so that they may in fact be deemed to be employed rather than self-employed. I am concerned that there might be a plethora of cases that would try to interpret the difference in that terminology, and that will lead to uncertainty within the real estate industry as to whether these salespeople are employed or are indeed self-employed. I think it is important that the Minister does address this issue, because I think that is the responsible thing for him to do. It is one of the important clauses in Part 3 that we have highlighted, and I really would appreciate the Minister taking a call. No calls for the Minister to answer any questions have so far been taken seriously, whether in relation to the definition of \u201Ctransaction\u201D, the definition of \u201Cresidential property\u201D, or the definition of \u201Creal estate agency work\u201D. Now I am asking the Minister to take a call to explain the definition of \u201Cproperly supervised and managed\u201D. I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s advice, or his getting advice from officials, as to the ramifications of that change of definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00222b1fc74703be44cd9916b6108aa168ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b1fc74703be44cd9916b6108aa168ef\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I am addressing Part 3, and I would like to pick up on a theme I was discussing in relation to Part 2. Part 3, \u201CLicensing\u201D, deals with how to become licensed, and again we see that it is done by the registrar, as appointed by the authority. I see a very strong similarity here to the potential relationship that existed between the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board and the industry training organisation. When we look at the terms and reasons in respect of a person becoming licensed, we find that it goes beyond a lot of what has been normal and into areas where the authority has the ability to cancel licences, as one would justifiably understand it could. But when we actually look at it we see clause 53 states that the registrar must cancel a person\u2019s licence and remove that person\u2019s name from the register, for various reasons, and paragraph (c) states: \u201Cif the person has failed to maintain the prescribed qualifications;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThat in itself may not mean a heck of a lot, but when we look at the relationship that can exist between an authority and an industry training organisation, we find that there can be quite a conflict of relationships, as was the case, as I said earlier, between the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board and the plumbers and gasfitters industry training organisation. That was borne out in Hazel Armstrong\u2019s report, which stated that there were strong personalities, and in that case they were between the registrar and the chief executive officer of the industry training organisation; it just did not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe question I raise is whether a shelf life is now being put on to the real estate agent qualification. It is understood that after 3 to 5 years real estate agents will need to resit to keep those qualifications, whereas in the past there was an understanding that once people gained those qualifications, they did what was reasonable around the variations of the industry at the time and, as long as they were not bankrupt or were not facing criminal charges, they were able to keep their licences. The basis on which that qualification kept rolling on was to do with recognising prior learning and current competencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen I look at Part 3, I see that there will need to be continual conversation between the authority, especially the registrar, and the industry training organisation with regard to the construction of those qualifications. It could get quite personal and it could get very bitter, especially if the relationship breaks down, and in the end the Minister would have to step in, as Dr Cullen did with the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board, and sack them. That in itself creates its own reverberations around the industry, and it does not do anything to instil confidence. We can see that there is a lot of good within the proposed framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EAgain, I come back to the other point. Are there conversations with Australia and developments along Australian lines so that we are developing similar standards, so that these standards are compatible with New Zealand, and so that we do not allow a standards issue to develop within the qualifications and start a division that could set the licensing authority up against the industry training organisation? That is the one point I think we really need to be very mindful of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe second point, of course, concerns the definition of a salesperson and how he or she must be supervised. That in itself, I think, opens a can of worms around litigation and confusion, as will the aspect of the independent contractor versus \u201Cservices of\u201D and \u201Cservices for\u201D. The Minister has wisely taken the step to take away clause 50, and we certainly see that as being a positive move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226e2a5c4aa6934a9c8f6e18988ddab210\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e2a5c4aa6934a9c8f6e18988ddab210\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E The real estate industry is already reeling from the description of it given by Minister Clayton Cosgrove. He described real estate agents as land sharks and cowboys. The real estate industry knows that it does not have the confidence of the Minister, because he has told it so. The real estate industry has a view of the Minister because of that position and the grandstanding of that Minister on real estate agents and their profession. Now the Minister brings to the House a bill called the Real Estate Agents Bill, which we oppose. The bill intends to provide good consumer protection, but it contains some glaring omissions. I raised one omission during the debate on Part 2, and that was the exclusion of property managers from the regime, which, of course, creates inequalities. Minister Cosgrove\u2019s response to that was, I suppose, typical of him. He indicated that he would conduct a review. When? We do not know. How? We do not know. Who will be conducting that review? We do not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThat brings me to another part of Part 3. Part 3 is to do with licensing and how to become licensed. There are a number of clauses dealing with how to become licensed, the provisions relating to licences, the effect of licences, the status of licensees, and the renewal, cancellation, suspension, and surrender of licences, and so on. The person who considers the granting of licences to become a real estate agent is, of course, the registrar. The person who appoints the registrar, who grants licences, is somebody who has been appointed by the Minister. Given the recent occurrences, against all the conventions of this Parliament, in the appointment to boards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262e9d9b9f3e64ed4bb5a42874c7b3a3c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wonder whether I can stop this. I have been upstairs and I have been in this Chamber, and that issue really was addressed in Part 1. We are here talking about licensing. You are trying\u2014as did the first speaker on this part\u2014to link it back to two steps back. I think that is really pushing the definition of what is talked about in Part 3. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4959500b95b487d94eef315215c7389\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important to the real estate agent who is coming under the regime of becoming licensed that he or she has confidence in the person or body that is granting that licence. That is why I raised that issue in the context of the debate on Part 3. We are talking about people\u2019s livelihoods here. We are talking in the debate on Part 3 of this bill, which concerns licensing, about people\u2019s professions. There are real estate agents in New Zealand who take the profession of real estate agent for a number of years of their working lives. There are real estate agents who are in the job in the long term for maybe 20 years. They enjoy the role, and they are good at the profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002272f5ec8668144413b94e51a17444ec69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272f5ec8668144413b94e51a17444ec69\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to have a look at clauses 43, 44, and 45 in Part 3. Clause 43, \u201CDuty to produce evidence of issue of licence\u201D, states: \u201CA licensee must, if asked by any person, produce for inspection by that person either\u2014(a) the evidence of the issue of a licence sent to that person under section 41; or (b) a copy of that evidence.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EDoes that mean if I am employed by Barfoot and Thompson and I am walking down the road, somebody can ask to see my licence? Is that what it means? I wonder whether the Minister could turn his mind to maybe answering that question. It seems to me that it is a bit like the regime they had in South Africa, where one could be walking down the road and somebody would ask in a South African accent\u2014which I will not even try to do\u2014to see one\u2019s pass, to see one\u2019s licence to be there. That is what this clause means. That is exactly what it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df47904022f043df9ad5d6749d607e9c\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Good point!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca8bcddcc8642198b13cf7db7c2a76d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chauvel says that it is a good point, then shakes his head. It is no wonder these guys are on their way out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f192c3ccf474c6baf79d91d8108a9a5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: We are debating Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7db2c9d1dea4315ba5a23ba2141e147\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I am just responding to an interjection from the other side of the Chamber. I was on track. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723c8094f6d247079c63d6fe4a179721\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: We were going along very quietly. On we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95ea4e12afd4e4e94f3a93dc5b92e88\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, for bringing the Government members back to order. Fancy having to produce one\u2019s licence! We have licences for driving cars, which the police have the power to look at any time, day or night, when one is in a car, or whatever. But fancy anybody, from Joe Public upwards, downwards, and sideways, having the ability to stop a person and ask where his or her real estate licence is. That is what clause 43 does. That is exactly what clause 43 does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe term of the licence continues in force for a period of 12 months. Well, what happens if somebody is late in getting relicensed? I have looked through Part 3, and it has no reference to somebody who is late in getting relicensed. The bill talks about the cancellation of a licence, the renewal of a licence, and the expiry of a licence, but nowhere does it tell us what happens when somebody unfortunately misses the renewal date. We have all been guilty, now and then, of missing the date on which we have to get some paperwork in. I wonder whether the Minister can turn his head to that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe interesting clause in Part 3 is clause 45, \u201CLicence may not be transferred\u201D. How stupid is that? Of course it cannot be transferred. Can we transfer our own driver\u2019s licence? No. Can we transfer any other sort of licence? I tell members that it is actually easier to get a gun licence than it is to get a real estate agent\u2019s licence. There will not be a real estate agent left in this country, if the Government has its way. But here is the doozy: clause 51, \u201CRenewal of licence\u201D. I commented briefly yesterday about the same issue. Subclause (1) states: \u201CAn application for renewal of a licence must, before the date on which the licence expires,\u2014(a) be made to the Registrar in the prescribed form; and\u201D\u2014here is the little doozy\u2014\u201C(b) be accompanied by the prescribed fee (if any).\u201D Why is it that for the last 9 years this Government has been intent on putting the word \u201Cfee\u201D behind everything it does?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e072118ae2ab4156bc6ae1e263f57c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e072118ae2ab4156bc6ae1e263f57c77\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bbd340be45d4d08ba5236b32af94c04\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000543\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 34 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000544\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (c) of subclause (1) \u201Cin the interests of the public\u201D before \u201Cis a fit\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292855e7bf71c4158bf708edcbb1ea025\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000545\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to clause 34 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000546\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879e44894ee547b4a5a3a8c7d5b9056d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Peter Dunne\u2019s amendment to clause 34(1)(e) is ruled out of order as it is now inconsistent with a previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 34 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (c) of subclause (2) \u201Cin the interests of the public\u201D before \u201Cis a fit\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225811640d16224e3b8bbeec3956d9510f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000550\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000551\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000552\u0022\u003E34A\tThe Industry Training Organisation for the real estate industry shall prescribe the qualifications necessary before a person is entitled to be licensed as an agent, branch manager or salesperson.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225c5c405239de407cab2f27f0ef4e3e86\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000553\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the remaining amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000554\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224fedd38c357944e28d6c856fc8ee3d1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d2cf5a788ed429695ec4bb8a8c58d55\u0022\u003EPart 4  Complaints and discipline\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022beae385d73e34456836bfe76d4b22b61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beae385d73e34456836bfe76d4b22b61\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate includes schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfff110f044c4f43b6492902109a6ba0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfff110f044c4f43b6492902109a6ba0\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 4 is almost the heart of the legislation, because the Minister\u2019s yelling and screaming before the bill was introduced indicated he was concerned that there was an inadequate complaints procedure under the 1976 Act. We agree that it was timely to look at the complaints and discipline procedure, because any system that regulates a profession or an industry group needs to be effective so that disputes can be resolved justly, quickly, and inexpensively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe problem, from the National Party\u2019s point of view, is that Part 4 will not achieve that purpose. Rather, it will cause added expense. Also, what has been constructed is not really suitable for the particular circumstances. That is why we put in our minority view that we were very concerned about the bureaucracy created by this bill. We have mentioned the authority on the way through, but we say here that an unnecessary bureaucracy is created. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet us take a look at the way this part is constructed. There are two types of conduct that can lead to complaints. The first type is unsatisfactory conduct, which is of the lesser standard, and the second type is misconduct. We have no complaint with that division of labour, as it were. If one looks at the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, one sees there is a very similar distinction to be made. Instances of unsatisfactory conduct are referred to complaints assessment committees, and, as the Committee can see, a number of changes have been made to the way in which the complaints assessment committees are set up. The existing clause 74 is proposed to be deleted, and there is a new clause 74 and a clause 74A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThere will be a complaints assessment committee that will deal with complaints and allegations about licensees. There will also be a panel. The reason for that is we received evidence about the number of complaints made, and it became tolerably clear at an early stage that simply to have three members of the board as members of a complaints assessment committee would not work. This is where we say that this is too complex, because this bill does not adequately address what to do with the myriad of vexatious complaints that come in. These are the sorts of complaints that should be able to be dealt with very quickly, or what may start off as a complaint may be able to be resolved very quickly if the agent and the client have a quick discussion. There may have been a misunderstanding, or whatever. But in the way it is constructed it almost encourages a culture of complaint, and we do not think this is proportionate to the needs of the consumers. If there could be a provision that provided for, in the first instance, people being able to talk to their agent, if they thought fit, we think that would be a much better system. Sometimes, of course, the relationship between the client and the agent is so bad that one immediately goes to this complaints procedure, and that is understood and accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThat is the first aspect of the complaints procedure. I do not think it is a bad idea to have something like clause 84 in the bill. It deals with modes of resolution of disputes, and it has been picked up from the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act. It will be possible to resolve matters by negotiation, conciliation, and mediation. I certainly hope this clause will be invoked if the legislation is passed, because that is a much better way of resolving a dispute between the client and the agent than simply going to this more formal complaints procedure. I note it is not compulsory. At some stage we will have to debate the desirability of having compulsory mediation, because it is certainly the case in Australia in various tribunals, and I think there is a lot to commend it in this country as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second tribunal I am not so worried about. This is the Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal set up under clause 97 and the following clauses. There will need to be a tribunal of this nature to deal with the serious complaints. These are complaints about misconduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0d953c444234cbea9bc0babae194cb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0d953c444234cbea9bc0babae194cb9\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a couple of brief comments on Part 4\u2014in particular, on the Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal. I would like to address two issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EOne relates to the composition of the tribunal. The Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 243 would add to clause 97 a requirement that there be consultation with the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand when making the first appointment of a licensee. That is a useful provision, I think, on reflection. It probably only restates the requirements of the Crown entities legislation, which would apply, in any event, to the tribunal\u2014that the Minister should appoint only properly qualified people to the tribunal. Clearly, in order to determine who was properly qualified, the Minister would have to go through some sort of consultation exercise, and it is likely that one of the bodies with which he would consult would be the Real Estate Institute. I think it is a useful restatement, in effect, of an existing requirement on the Minister, and it is to be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe other point that I want to make briefly is to deal with the suggestion that somehow the legislation allows insufficient time to set up the various bodies that are required under it. The analogy that has been drawn time and time again by ill-informed members of the Opposition is with the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. Well, what members who cite that legislation clearly do not know, or have not bothered to check, is that about 50 or 60 sets of different regulations and rules were required to be promulgated under that legislation in order to bring it into force. It was a very different exercise from, and of a very different order of magnitude to, this legislation, which has got a much simpler set of bodies that are required to function under it. The time allowed for those bodies to be brought into being is ample, in my submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea0b13ed044b400c81db9c2aab61bea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea0b13ed044b400c81db9c2aab61bea9\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I suppose we could call Part 4 \u201CWhen real estate agents go bad they go feral\u201D. That is the meaning of the current title \u201CComplaints and discipline\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to look at clauses 71 and 72, which set out provisions to do with unsatisfactory conduct and misconduct. Who decides what is unsatisfactory? There is no list here. There is a wide view of what is unsatisfactory. It could be anything from spitting to whatever. But who decides that? Does the Minister decide that, does the tribunal decide that, or what? It is not pointed out here. I know that at school it was always the principal who decided what was unsatisfactory, or the dean. But I am wondering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c77fc17c799497c94aa6750d3407349\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: You are wandering all over the place!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5cf384f97b142e890a6311a48a7ee2d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I am just wondering how long that member has got left in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d922d79504644e5f85a4d320bef8cb56\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, nice one, stick around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223914829fbc974616bdf431cf8ba3519e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It should not be very long. Then I turn to an issue that my colleague\u2014[Interruption] Oh, here we go. One puts a little bit of bait out there, and, bang, they just love to get it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae05b25a6da48109e221c0ca84d078d\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: It beats having to give a speech on the subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fbc5b4eaa984f82b7c73788d15e2aa9\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot help that fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a56d4fa17e42f5b78756833b6033c8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill, and could those people not provide the base.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cdf2415682f46ae9c2616f49bea7f7e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I will come back to the bill! Clause 97 talks about some sort of disciplinary tribunal. Well, who is going to appoint those people? Oh, it is the Minister. So who does the Minister appoint? His mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf9cfbc13c5443a83284e73f6c5fba0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c552381ae0214de285754ec9efb84507\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no. It is all about appointing mates. Who do members think will get appointed to the tribunal? Well, for a start it will be all the members of the Labour Party who lose their seats in the next election, because they will not have anything to do for the next 3, 6, or 9 years\u2014most probably 9. But never mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f507fa6197f1426a98bd0e92b45ff1a0\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: That member did lose his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b9f1ef0db14efb9d060e8bbe39e4b0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: There we go: out goes the bait, and, bang, there they go again. Well, at least I did work when I was out of Parliament, not like some people in this House who relied on\u2014but I will not go there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that we all know that there are bad eggs out there. We all know that there is the odd rogue element out there, but, boy, I tell members that it is easier to get a gun licence and walk down Queen Street with an AK47 than it is to comply with the sort of stuff we see before us. For years and years we have had a system whereby real estate agents who go bad are turfed out, run out, by the industry itself. Part 4, like the other parts, is nothing more than overkill, nothing more than smacking a little nut with a huge sledgehammer. That is all it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe disciplinary tribunal is all about Government members selecting their mates for their jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b891249d1e44539ad189f3dd7e9646\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Their mates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e878ad9fd38f4008a6a215ffc204d868\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Their mates for their jobs, and I tell that member who it will be. Lynne Pillay will be there because she will not win her seat, and she is not high enough on the list to get back in. Paula Bennett will win her seat. That is what it is all about\u2014protecting their mates and jobs for their mates. That is all it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295819db05e4443e48f6bbdb31bdd22e3\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: National Party hopper!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587f35445f8a4c44814056af6742a2a8\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, absolutely, and absolutely proud of it, and absolutely proud of the fact that I have come from small to big, and from being not so good to being brilliant. That is all I have to say on Part 4 at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ae427861d044795ba04278d79fb9542\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Kate Wilkinson, and my apologies to you, Kate, before. Sometimes your voice needs to come through the bulk of the person in front of you. But go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebefccd71df14073b7f892fe848d3530\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. When we get some asides we have the opportunity to ask for a withdrawal and apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e675e450f31b4b83b59be54729079774\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw about your bulk. It was a geographical feature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb13bfcc4b5c4f2fa745402e6b83acdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb13bfcc4b5c4f2fa745402e6b83acdf\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chairperson, and it is an honour and a privilege to follow from the oratory of my colleague the Hon Tau Henare. I rise to speak to Part 4 of the Real Estate Agents Bill, which relates to complaints and discipline. Really, if one thinks about the Minister\u2019s preambles about the so-called \u201Ccarnage\u201D in the industry, and land sharks and cowboys, then really this should be the most important part of this bill that we are debating in Committee this afternoon. I have to say that it is disappointing that the queries we have raised, and the calls we have asked the Minister to take, have been very serious, sensible questions, and the Minister in charge of this bill, unfortunately, has failed to answer any of them, and doubtless will not be here to even listen to the discussion on the complaints and discipline provisions of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the complaints assessment committees. Under the original bill, as presented to the Justice and Electoral Committee, there was to be one complaints assessment committee of three members. The complaints assessment committee was sort of replacing the regional disciplinary committees that were provided for under the 1976 Real Estate Agents Act. And I will just put on the record that section 101 of the 1976 Act basically stated: \u201Ca Regional Disciplinary Committee shall consist of\u2014 (a) a barrister or solicitor as its Chairperson: (b) Three members appointed by the Council from members of the Institute within the region for which the Committee is established: (c) One lay member (not being a real estate agent) appointed by the Minister.\u201D Then it goes on to state: \u201CThree members of a Regional Disciplinary Committee, including its Chairperson, shall constitute a quorum.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ENow the difficulty that we have, and I think some of the difficulties that have arisen with the complaints that have been made in this industry, are because we do not have regional disciplinary committees approved by the Minister. I asked the Minister back in June last year who were the current lay members appointed by the Minister to each regional disciplinary committee\u2014that is, each disciplinary committee for the region. He said: \u201CI am advised that there are currently no lay members appointed to the regional disciplinary committee pursuant to section 101.\u201D The power of appointment resides in the Minister, and for the last 10 years or so the Minister has totally failed to appoint lay members of the disciplinary committee and therefore have them properly constituted. It is no wonder there have been problems at that level, in relation to the complaints. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EA Crown Solicitor\u2019s letter addressed to the institute and dated December 2006 states: \u201CThe absence of the regional disciplinary committee has effectively left a significant lacuna in the disciplinary structure. Mid-range misconduct either had to be taken to the licensing board or the regional disciplinary subcommittee. In some cases the misconduct was deemed too serious to be dealt with by the regional disciplinary subcommittee, but insufficiently serious to warrant an application for suspension or cancellation to the licensing board. This left the Real Estate Institute in a difficult and quite unsatisfactory position.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThat \u201Cdifficult and \u2026 unsatisfactory position\u201D could easily have been fixed by the Minister merely appointing the lay members of the regional disciplinary committee pursuant to the powers contained in section 101 of the 1976 Act. We have to take with a grain of salt some of the criticism of the processes under the old Act, which the Minister believes have failed. The failure is in some ways due mainly to the failure of the Minister to comply with the existing legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI really want to talk about the complaints assessment committee, which is the lower level to where complaints are to be directed; it is the regional level. My colleague Mr Finlayson has already referred to the disciplinary tribunal, which is for the higher level complaints. The complaints assessment committee is for the lower level of complaints. The original bill provided for one complaints assessment committee, and that shows the Minister\u2019s lack of knowledge and ignorance as to how the real estate industry operates. When we think about the nature of the complaints, they are the smaller, minor complaints. It might be complaints about a telephone call that was missed or not returned, which meant that the person missed out on buying the property of his or her choice\u2014it is those sorts of complaints, anything up to misrepresentation, rudeness, or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESome of those levels of complaint go to the complaints assessment committee. The select committee was concerned that if there was only one complaints assessment committee, then there might be a logjam of complaints. The committee has made a recommendation, but I have to say I am somewhat concerned because it will impose additional bureaucracy, the costs of which will be imposed upon the consumer. The Real Estate Agents Authority appoints the complaints assessment committee, and it appoints as many complaints assessment committees as in its opinion are required to deal effectively with complaints and allegations about licensees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe reason for the committees being appointed as required is that rather than being prescriptive and having a complaints assessment committee for each region, it was dependent upon where the complaints were coming from. If there was a pattern, then at least this gives the authority the power to enable it to form those complaints assessment committees. Each of those committees consists of three members. One of the members of each committee must be a member of the authority, two must be appointed from the panel, which I will come to in a minute, and one appointee must be a lawyer of not less than 7 years\u2019 legal experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThen of course we had to have a panel of eligible complaints assessment committee members. The authority must maintain a panel of up to 20 persons who are suitable to serve as members of that complaints assessment committee. When assessing and considering their suitability, the authority has regard to the person\u2019s personal attributes, and also his or her knowledge and experience of matters likely to come before the committee, which include, without limitation, experience and knowledge of the law of the real estate industry and consumer affairs. So we have a panel of 20 persons who are eligible to be appointed to complaints assessment committees, as required. The term of office is 5 years, after which they resign from the panel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI have to ask the Minister what the difference is between this and the regional disciplinary committees under the 1976 Act. Surely, when criticism of the real estate industry relates to two main aspects, one of which is the regional disciplinary committees and the process when the regional disciplinary committees have not been approved by the Minister, it would be a very simple exercise for the Minister just to have approved those regional disciplinary committees without having to go through all the paperwork involved in this major reformation of the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other issue that was criticised, and that the industry wanted reform on, was the quantum of the fines. Again, it would be a simple matter to amend the law just to increase the quantum of the fine from $750 to whatever is appropriate. There could be two small amendments, rather than this major escapade of a sledgehammer to crack a nut that really has not been handled well. This legislation should have been easy; it should have been simple. The legislation was wanted by the industry and wanted by consumers, but for reasons that have become apparent, a meal has been made of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002226ddd6701c4d43f8a956087080dbc705\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226ddd6701c4d43f8a956087080dbc705\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 4 of the Real Estate Agents Bill, I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the issue raised in the National Party\u2019s minority report that we have certainly got ourselves into a fair-old state around a bureaucracy structure. The interpretation of the various parts talks about complaints assessment committees and the Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal. After I had conversations with various real estate agents about industry training\u2014and I had a short excursion into that particular industry\u2014I saw that this aspect of it really did need to be tidied up, but not with such a massive bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIf we look at some of the fines that have been attributed to the committees to determine, we see that they have been stretched out to appropriate levels in a 21st century legislative structure. The fine is not to exceed $10,000 for an individual and $20,000 for a company. Clause 107 talks about what the disciplinary tribunal can do. Subclause (2)(f) states: \u201Can order that a licensee who is an individual pay a fine not exceeding $15,000 \u2026\u201D, and for a company it is $30,000. The clause covers the level of compensation that can be sought, and a specified order cannot exceed $100,000. When we stop and think about those sums of money, we see that they certainly are a major deterrent in themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EHowever, it leads me to question the Minister as to whether we needed such a massive bureaucracy to achieve it. When making that comment, I am raising the issue of the cost of supporting such a structure. We see that there will be a self-funding model. There will be a contribution from the membership\u2014a general fee from the real estate sector. There will be an operating levy and there will also be a disciplinary levy. We certainly hope that we do not see an explosion of costs, when we consider that the authority has the ability to appoint and maintain a panel of 20 people to be able to provide what it decides to be an appropriate level of engagement over issues. I would like the Minister to help me understand how he will be absolutely sure that that provision is meeting the intent of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI would like to take the Committee\u2019s attention back to clause 92, which talks about the members of the committees not being personally liable. We can appreciate that there needs to be some protection for members on a committee. The track that this process takes us down goes right through to the Court of Appeal. When that occurs, anybody\u2019s head can roll. Although we recognise the need to have some level of support and protection for the members of the committees, I would like the Minister\u2019s view on clause 92(2): \u201CSubsection (1) does not apply if the person acts in bad faith.\u201D There is an assumption that a person may act in bad faith; however, we have not dealt with issues around conflicts of interest. We would expect those to be handled in a way that did not actually bring about vexatious and frivolous claims. I think clause 92 is just a little too robust in its protection of people who are not behaving in the best interests of the situation and not being transparent. Clause 92(1)(a) states: \u201Cany act done or omitted to be done in the course of performing or exercising any of that person\u2019s functions, duties, or powers under this Act or done or omitted to be done \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00224e7c72476dae42e58ecc65615be52450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e7c72476dae42e58ecc65615be52450\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call to address some of the points that have been raised about Part 4 and about previous parts on which members have expended a lot of hot air trying to make some conspiracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109357df996149ff952691052d284b95\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Not hot air!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c5b7174e3749db8c4bde601e8bf279\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014or cold air in that member\u2019s case\u2014in respect of appointments. Let me make the position completely clear. Some member obviously could not read the bill and said the appointments would have to be made next week, or the day after the bill receives the Royal assent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee21fb0b9e444a79b6b0186596cb8ca1\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: It was David Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6de44f4f71f47efa25d346e5e2fdb00\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, yes, a very learned member. The truth and the facts are\u2014if we get rid of the hot or cold air\u2014that the provision allowing appointments to the authority to be made indeed comes into force the day after the bill receives the Royal assent. However, proper appointment processes, especially in the period leading up to a general election, will be followed. There is no need to rush these things because work can be got on with, prior to appointments being made. It is not a requirement to make appointments when this section of the Act comes into force. Despite all the puffery that we hear from the Opposition side, again the facts speak for themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMs Wilkinson raised issues about the regional disciplinary committees. She seemed to put a thesis forward that had my predecessors and I, over the last decade, activated regional disciplinary committees with fines, I believe in the order of $2,000-odd, and made up of members of the industry and other lay members, then somehow peace would have broken out, the veil would have fallen, and all ills within the industry would have been solved. That is not true. On 2 October 2006 I met with the chief executive of the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand, Christine Le Cren, and Mr Cleland, the national president, and they indeed asked me to appoint members to set up regional disciplinary committees. I urged them, and have continued to urge them, to use the full extent of the old law. The 1976 Act, despite the conjecture that the bar is too high to refer cases to the licensing board, gives the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand the facility at any stage to refer any complaint. Whether it be flogging tea bags at smoko, defrauding somebody of hundreds of thousands of dollars, or acting inappropriately or unethically, the institute has the ability, as the gatekeeper, to decide where these complaints go. I urge the institute, rather than setting up another structure\u2014National members talk about bureaucracy and then call on us to activate another structure\u2014to use the powers in the Act that have existed since 1976. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other bonus of referring cases to the licensing board is that the board has the ability to impose fines up to $5,000\u2014not $2,000 or $750 as the other subcommittees did\u2014and it has the ability to suspend, delicense, or run the errant real estate agent out of town. If the member is trying to suggest that had we activated, after 10 years, more bureaucracy by activating a regional subcommittee that somehow would have solved every ill, then I invite her to revisit her law classes because she appears to be a tad naive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESomebody, I think it was Mr King, asked what this authority is going to do. I can tell the member one thing it will do. It will produce codes of ethics and practice. It will not produce codes of ethics such as the code of ethics prior to Mr David Russell\u2019s redrafting of it. The Real Estate Institute of New Zealand code of ethics states in 13.5: \u201CMembers shall never publicly criticise fellow members.\u201D There will be an era of openness when anybody can make a complaint and have it heard. The complaints assessment committees will be set up to expedite, deal with, and investigate complaints and will recommend courses of action. They will be well resourced indeed, and there will not be the delays that we have had with the institute. As I said before, I am told that a real estate agent had a case hanging over his head, like the sword of Damocles, for 3 years. He was not able to have his day before the institute\u2014his day in court, as it were. That will not happen under this system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThen we come to the issue of costs, which somebody raised. Let me just say this. I have said publicly that there are around 18,000 or 20,000 folk in this industry. If I was to charge them a flat fee of $500 a head to fund this whole framework, which I am told is on average the equivalent fee they would pay to the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand, depending on where they are in the hierarchy of the structure, I would have twice as much money as I need to make this structure work. It may be that, as with the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand fees now, a manager might pay a slightly higher fee than an agent and a salesperson might pay a lower fee. But when the average commissions prior to last year totalled $1.2 billion, and the average commission, which I acknowledge has probably gone down a bit, given property prices, was $15,000 per sale or purchase, members cannot tell me that the world as we know it will end and that massive costs will be visited on the property seller or the buyer because the real estate person may pass on $500 or thereabouts to the consumer\u2014if that is what the figure is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ENational members do not like the facts. \u201COld Smoko\u201D, the tumbleweed over there, does not like them. A spurious case is being made to try to scare people in our communities. If we set up an independent transparent authority, consumers who feel that they may have been done over can go and test their case before independents so that even if they lose their case they can feel as if they went to a court, that they have had their day, and that independents with no vested interest and no axe to grind have assessed their case. Opponents say that all that will be put asunder because massive amounts of money will be visited on the consumer, house prices will fall, costs will go up, and the world as we know it will end. But it is like other professions\u2014lawyers pay more, builders with licences pay more, and electricians pay more to be licensed. I say come on, let us get a life! The time for scaremongering is over. National members are getting a bit desperate in respect of Part 4. Those are the facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying this. Somebody asked what the change in the disciplinary regime will be. In the current regime there is the ability to fine somebody $750, and I note that there is no legal or moral impediment on the Real Estate Institute to pass on that small fee to the victim, as dictated by the legislation, but it never happens. There is the ability within the tribunal, if the case gets that far, to have compensation\u2014that wonderful thing where if someone has been wronged, especially in respect of his or her home, a large asset, that person can get compensation. The fines have been lifted, as the Real Estate Institute wanted. The level of discipline has also been lifted, as the Real Estate Institute wanted. The ability to set up multiple complaints assessment committees and to increase and reduce the number, depending on the volume of complaints, is again allowed. As Ms Wilkinson says frequently: \u201CJustice delayed is justice denied.\u201D Well, she has a dose of amnesia when she talks about this sector. She is not worried about the delays. She is not worried that in the past very few, if any, complaints have been referred to the licensing board when there was the power to do so. This is a board that can fine people $5,000 and throw them out. That is not enough; that is why we are changing it. But that facility is not new in legislation, I say to the party that says we do not want bureaucracy and that we should use the existing legislation. When it is not used there is a problem, and when we cannot compel people to use it there is a problem. I say to National Party members that what I have said addresses some of their points and I ask that we get a bit of fact back into the debate rather than all the hot air and hyperbole\u2014or cold air in the case of Nathan Guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00223efd7b194bd8495ea5de4b1792af4a49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223efd7b194bd8495ea5de4b1792af4a49\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, after 5\u00BD hours of debate today on the Real Estate Agents Bill we have finally heard from the Minister. What a lot of piffle we have heard! The Government has had to put the House into urgency\u2014we are sitting till midnight this evening, and having 13 hours of debate\u2014to get through this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis Minister could have had a chance of reforming this Act, but what a shambles! I cannot believe that he actually took a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, as my colleague Kate Wilkinson described this Minister doing in her very, very good address. This Minister had the opportunity to win over 18,000 to 20,000 real estate agents\u2019 votes for this election. But do members know what? Labour will not get any of those votes, because it has made an absolute shambles of this legislation. We are seeing that here today, with the Government having to move the House into urgency to get this bill passed. It is just so interesting that the Minister had the opportunity to get this legislation right. One of my constituents presented a submission to the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014and I acknowledge the good work of Christopher Finlayson, Kate Wilkinson, and Chris Auchinvole on the select committee. My constituent went home and rang me that night, and said that he had presented a pretty good submission, but that it seemed to be just the National members who had their heads around the bill. He said that the members of the select committee who are sitting on the other side of the House did not have a clue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022176663934adf48d88fcdaa0170e699c7\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: What did he say about Lynne Pillay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d52c6e5651541bda3ec067b04c80c68\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Which one is Lynne Pillay? I want to talk about Part 4, because that is all about complaints and discipline. All of the real estate agents from the region where I live, Horowhenua and Kapiti, have a complaint for the Government. They have a complaint about the reform of this legislation\u2014that the Government should have got it right. This process is not right, and the House needs to acknowledge that today. This part is so bureaucratic. Is that not typical of this Government? The way to correct things is to have more bureaucracy\u2014just put more bureaucracy in the way of trying to correct the complaints and discipline procedure. It will not do it. What it will do, in my opinion, is encourage a culture of more complaints, and that is where we have a real concern about this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI think the Government had a wonderful opportunity to get this reform right. The industry wanted it and the sector wanted it, but it is not right. We have some real concerns about this legislation. This part addresses the nub of the issue, which is the Government creating more and more bureaucracy to try to address the problem\u2014a sledgehammer that is cracking just a walnut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt is an embarrassment that the Labour Government is ramming this Clark-Peters legislation through in urgency tonight\u2014we are debating through to midnight. We are coming to the end of the term of this dying Government. It just shows that the Government has had to put the House into urgency to rattle through the legislation, when it could have done it a lot sooner if it had been able to get the numbers. The Government has managed just now to do a deal with New Zealand First to get its support through Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe have some real concerns about Part 4, \u201CComplaints and discipline\u201D, and about how there will be this wonderful panel of 20 persons who will try to administer the complaints procedure. I heard Chris Finlayson talk about clause 97. He made some wonderful contributions on the establishment of the Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal, which in part we are supporting. But fundamentally we have a real issue with this legislation this afternoon, and with the House being in urgency to yet again create more bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00225c67064d6e6646fa8b647b4648333749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c67064d6e6646fa8b647b4648333749\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b1c5158266f43d48f3859ee0390a9ab\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Party vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287929ae6c6aa4dcd9e7784201d8ee1fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I said \u201CAll those that are of that opinion say \u2018no\u2019. \u201D, I heard nothing, and then declared the result. I am sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc3c81dd4e9f4ca890fea38cd54344e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc3c81dd4e9f4ca890fea38cd54344e6\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I was having a glass of water at that point in time, then I put my glass down. I ask the Committee that we recast the vote because it is vitally important that National votes against this legislation. I raise it as a point of order that you please recast that vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a954040f84dc4f998c2ef3f2f5b1a028\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a procedural motion. You will have a chance to vote against the legislation. I am sorry. If every time I had to do a procedural motion I had to watch whether people were drinking\u2014I know it sounds very unfair, but I took the procedural motion and I cast the procedural motion. [Interruption] To the member who makes these comments, I would rather you take a point of order, than constantly chip from the side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022444ba753c3ad40879f3c5087764f747f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298a6afe1ecca474b8c85a9ee6b1ca5df\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a317a77c4f0e4521a8a6a4fa4f7d493a\u0022\u003EPart 5  Duties relating to real estate agency work\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6e038bdb2a440ed9a664d6159c8fd3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6e038bdb2a440ed9a664d6159c8fd3a\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in relation to Part 5 of the Real Estate Agents Bill. This part deals with the duties relating to real estate agency work. I will refer to a few issues in relation to this, but not on a clause by clause basis. The first is in relation to clauses 137 to 141, which I appreciate are being deleted, pursuant to the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 243. I think it is important, for the record, to know what we are deleting. We are deleting the clauses providing for the bidders record for auctions, the proof of identity for anybody who wants to bid, the confidentiality of the bidders record, and bids being taken only from registered bidders. This shows a huge ignorance of how auctions are conducted. It was so impractical and so unrealistic it was just not going to be workable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EFor example, if one turned up to an auction and decided to bid for a property\u2014bearing in mind that it is the auctioneer\u2019s duty to get the best possible price\u2014unless one had filled in the bidders record, one would not have been able to bid for that property, and the vendor might have missed out on the top price. But not only that, bidders also had to fill in details identifying who they were and provide proof of identity, which was limited to a driver\u2019s licence, a New Zealand passport, an overseas passport, or other proof of identity as prescribed by regulations, whatever that might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Real Estate Agents Bill then stated that the person engaged to conduct the auction had to keep the bidders record for at least 3 years. Why on earth would one want to keep for 3 long years a bidders record of unsuccessful bidders who might have been interested in a section or house? At least, in relation to this provision and these clauses, some common sense has prevailed and those provisions will be deleted, with our endorsement, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 243. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBut I come back to something I mentioned when I spoke about Part 1, the interpretation and definitions clause, because it relates to clause 129 in Part 5, and that is the definition of residential property. I point out to the Minister that residential property has been defined twice. It seems that it has been replicated, both in clause 125 and in clause 129, where it says exactly the same thing. We do not need both of those definitions so, for the sake of saving a few words, maybe one of those definitions\u2014which are word for word the same\u2014could be omitted without seriously affecting the integrity of this part. I see that the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Parker, is looking at the bill with some interest because he, at least, is a lawyer and does know the importance of having sensible, readable legislation that has some sense of professionalism about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI asked earlier for the then Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, to take a call on the definition of residential property. Residential property has been defined in the interpretation clause as \u201Cproperty used, or intended to be used, exclusively or principally for residential purposes.\u201D It has been further defined, and this is both in clause 125 and in clause 129, where it is replicated, by excluding \u201Cproperty that\u2014(a) has been developed with other properties in a continuous area; and (b) is proposed to be sold or otherwise disposed of by a vendor who also proposes to sell or otherwise dispose of, or who has sold or otherwise disposed of, some or all of those other properties.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process, submitters were concerned about this provision, because the relevance of it is that a sole-agency agreement for residential property can be cancelled 90 days after it has been entered into. This provision deals with residential property such as, for example, subdivisions that may take longer to sell than the 90 days, or staged developments that could take longer as well. It recognises that there are some types of property, like those staged developments, that may take longer than 90 days to sell, and some that will be staged over several years. It recognises that exception to the cancellation of the sole-agency agreement, but what it does not do is adequately define residential property, so we do not know what property can or cannot be included in that sole-agency agreement that can be cancelled 90 days after it has been entered into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EDuring the debate on Part 1, I gave the example of lifestyle property and asked whether the definition of residential property included lifestyle property. So far I think that question has been too difficult for the Minister to address, but it is an important question because, in relation to agency agreements, as I said earlier, many of the difficulties are that a person will sign up with a sole agent, wanting to sell a property, and may then want to choose another agent further down the track. After 90 days, that person can cancel the first sole-agency agreement and enter into another with a separate real estate agent, but if there is confusion as to the definition of residential property, that person might end up having, in effect, two agency agreements, neither of which is cancelled, and may end up being responsible for paying double the commission. If the Minister thinks that is unlikely, I can tell him that it is not. There have been several disputes that involve two agents or more claiming commission for one sale. One of them is entitled to the commission, not both, but it is a dispute and an action that vendor clients do not want hanging over them, especially if it can be clarified by the Minister in the Committee stage before it is entrenched in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI think that is an important point; I do not think it is filibustering. It might be too technical for the Minister, who seems just to want to make personal comments about National members, but it is a serious point that should be addressed by the Minister, or perhaps he could get advice from his officials. It is irresponsible to pass legislation through this House that contains uncertainties, especially as to such basic definitions as residential property. I seriously ask the Minister to address this point without being too emotive about it, because it is a sensible point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI have had 28 years of conveyancing experience, so I have read several agency agreements and I have had several conveyancing transactions, and I have to say that the signing of agency agreements is one of the most fraught issues that vendor clients have. There is fine print in the agreement and people are often confused as to whether they have a sole-agency or a multi-agency agreement, who works in with whom, how to cancel that agreement, and, after the cancellation of the agreement, whether the sale has been affected because of what that agent did, and whether the agent is still entitled to the commission. A very important practical point from the point of view of selling one\u2019s property is what the agency agreement entails and what the definition of \u201Cresidential property\u201D includes and excludes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00220e99e150675a453aac5f141a6c90af94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e99e150675a453aac5f141a6c90af94\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I have become kind of immersed in this bill. It is a fascinating over-prescription. In a lot of ways it is a bit like using a bulldozer to weed the radishes, with a heap of prescription and overbearing high-handedness. We are on Part 5, \u201CDuties relating to real estate agency work\u201D, and I am drawn firstly to clause 119, which requires that any money in respect of any transaction be held for 10 working days. But what if both parties do not want it to be held for 10 working days? In the last transaction that I was involved in\u2014a rather modest transaction\u2014both the vendor and the purchaser wanted a much quicker turn-round. On the one hand the vendor wanted to go unconditional on another option and needed the money, and on the other hand the purchaser\u2014moi\u2014wanted to avoid having money sitting in a GST situation for 6 months until it could be retrieved. In this bill we have a prescription that would totally write off the opportunity for common sense when both the vendor and the purchaser want an alternative. No doubt the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, will now seek some advice and come forth with a very good explanation as to why that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThen I am drawn to clause 121, \u201CAgents\u2019 trust accounts to be audited\u201D. That is a really good idea. If I was a real estate agent and I had an audit account called, say, the \u201CSpencer Trust\u201D or something like that, I would really want it to be audited, because of its association with other names that might not be quite so wholesome. So I am quite in favour of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThen we come to the latter part of Part 5. I was interested to learn from the comments made by my colleague Kate Wilkinson that all of the provisions in regard to auctions are to be withdrawn. I ask the Minister whether that is right\u2014he could perhaps nod.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0efd49398e481fbbe7989ed005173e\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228892856ca6d642d7a2f355af5cd6e9cd\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you; I commend the Minister for a sensible outcome. I am not sure why he did not seek some advice before those provisions were put in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThis is where I have had some trouble with this bill; it has been thrown together with all kinds of aspersions cast about skulduggery, shysters, and every other kind of wrong involvement in the real estate industry, when in reality there have been some serious overstatements. Can I confess to actually being an auctioneer? I was going to have some very stern words to say about those provisions if they had not been withdrawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI will make this point for a start. There are a series of mechanisms by which a person can sell a property, and it is up to the vendor to decide what mechanism to use. The vendor may not want an auction; there is sale by tender, private treaty, or negotiation. There is a whole range of things, so I have to say that I was very, very disappointed in the Minister when I saw those heavy-handed requirements about auctions included. The very nature of an auction is that it is about nuance and entertainment, and it is actually about engagement in a process of negotiation verbally, so it was disappointing to have had these prescriptions about bidders records, times at which people cannot arrive, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister that if I were selling something and an auction was underway, and someone rolled up in a Rolls Royce\u2014or, let us say, a red Hummer or something like that\u2014and wanted to bid, and went on the bidders record, I would have been distressed if that provision removing the opportunity for someone to bid in that way had not been withdrawn. Then, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218bb422c22df4b3a85ef7890f9c03fcc\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: But you\u2019re a happy man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229605de2ede1d400282a281545f44d7fc\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: In this little regard. I commend the Minister for dropping out his absolutely hopeless and heavy-handed series of prescriptions about auctions. Auctions do not play a huge part in sales. Quite often they are set up to draw some attention to a property, and identify those people with whom negotiations can take place. But I was just wondering what the mischief was. I mean, how many people do a runner and are not around after they have had the bid? I think the Minister would struggle to come up with some numbers on that. He was happy to give us some examples before\u2014two only\u2014on another part of the bill, when we were asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f07533961d2442abd1fcf81d738e8d5\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: If you yield, I\u2019ll give you a lot more examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a5ec4fd1914e828129ca188077227d\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister which people do runners. I am not sure that that actually is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34bc6fb667746e0887cd351badfc25e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34bc6fb667746e0887cd351badfc25e\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E What an appalling speech from the previous speaker. I will take a very short call on this part. Opposition to it comes from the party that is not a party of compulsion. What are we seeking to do with this regulation? We are seeking to have some transparency, some clarity, and what is wrong with that? But, again, from the party opposite, anything that puts any duty for any clarity for consumers is seen as over-regulation. As I have said before, to treat protection for consumers so flippantly, in relation to the most important and biggest purchase they will ever make in their lives, is just downright appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThere were many submissions on the bill, and the Justice and Electoral Committee did a lot of work on it. Kate Wilkinson contributed quite a bit of common sense to the bill, but at the end of the day National members see some political gain in opposing it. What is so terrible about a provision whereby parties want the money held for 10 working days? This is about accountability in the system, but I expect nothing more from members opposite, who are members of a party that in no way believes in compulsion of any kind. They just leave it to the free market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00224f198ca4ce4f4a4980145017fa284044\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f198ca4ce4f4a4980145017fa284044\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I will address Part 5 of the Real Estate Agents Bill. The previous speaker from this side of the Chamber, the very learned Eric Roy, who is a very capable auctioneer\u2014he is very capable at whatever he does\u2014addressed the piece that I will start on, which is the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove that removes the provisions relating to auction requirements, from clause 136 through to clause 141 of the bill. But I will approach that amendment from a slightly different angle. It tends to leave behind the footprint, culture, and attitude in which this bill was drafted. It clearly relitigates the situation when the Minister was very much on the front foot and deliberately attempting to capture a public perception, but that effectively faded away very quickly and was not there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will take a moment to move people away from the massive body we hear about: the approximately 20,000 real estate agents. In this case we are talking about the auction system. But in a region like Marlborough, if a person puts a foot out of place and does not perform with integrity, that person is out of that town. That was really brought home to me when this bill was in its early stages of gestation and was being spoken to in its first reading, and I was approached by the real estate principals who operate out of Blenheim. When one stops to think about them, one realises they are business owners. They were First National, Bayleys, Harcourts, LJ Hooker, Ray White, PGG Wrightson, and CRT Real Estate. Those companies have incredible recognition and a very high profile in Marlborough, including in Blenheim, and they are actively involved in many, many transactions, so I find it very, very difficult to understand how the Minister could have so simply and effectively alienated the members of those businesses from his line of thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608315c472684f5e81b150ae847c5f25\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Only the bad ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274379462d35a44e98af6e2eed4870f24\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: We had no bad ones in Marlborough. Those business people were very, very offended. They come across as very genuine people. They were quite concerned that they were being vilified, and all of the comments that have come from this side of the Chamber, in a way, should be seen from the point of view that there was huge angst amongst those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThat is referred to here, in Part 5 of this bill. There is the mere fact of the need to have so many amendments come forward on the Supplementary Order Paper. A lot of the amendments are common sense, but a lot of those provisions should have been there in the bill in the first place. Sure, we can go on about the odd person who does get things wrong and who has done things wrongly. We realise that there needs to be a process, but, as is illustrated by Part 5, the intention to so accurately prescribe the registration of bidders, the keeping of records for 3 years, and the requirement to give bidders something to wave so they are identifiable is indicative of the whole approach that was taken to this bill. As we go through this Committee stage, it has been very clear that the chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee, Lynne Pillay, feels that in this Parliament we legislate and get things incredibly right\u2014that we are the experts. But what we often do not have is the ability to connect with the coalface, where these matters are sorted out. What will come out of this legislation will be a bundle of law that, when it hits the ground, will turn considerably pear-shaped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will talk for a couple of seconds about an incredible competition I saw when I was with the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand. It was the Australasian championship of auctioneering, and it was an incredible experience. The competitors were at a really nice hotel in downtown Auckland, and they had got themselves into a competition that was very similar to a Golden Shears final. There were six finalists, and they had to auction off a property, which they did very well. It was incredible to see the detail that those people had to keep in mind and to manage. I take my hat off to those auctioneers, who see themselves as professionals, and who see themselves as adding an amazing amount of flair and as getting the very best explanation and description of a property. They are able to market a property in a way that draws out the people who are interested in that sort of property and value, and then, on the day, just like a wonderful chef does\u2014a Jamie Oliver deal\u2014they are able to get the very, very best outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EAll I have to say to the Minister is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Sadly, the Minister started off by trying to vilify those people, and he tried to maximise the political opportunity. Unfortunately, the perceived support that he thought would be out in the population for his position evaporated away, and I have noticed a considerable back-down from him. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa5483c61b984e37b1c8e8f2ffbbb399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa5483c61b984e37b1c8e8f2ffbbb399\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 5 deals with the duties relating to real estate agency work, and I want to take a call on just a couple of matters. The first is clause 117A, which requires the agent to display certain information. That provision is picked up from section 53 of the 1976 Act. It requires that every agent must clearly exhibit a notice of his or her name and the fact that he or she is a real estate agent licensed under the Act, at his or her place of business. One issue that arose is what happens if people do not have an office as such. If they have an office, clause 117A(2)(a) requires that that information be provided there. What if they operate out of a car and they simply have signs that they put up outside an apartment block, if they are selling an apartment block, or outside a house\u2014and we see all these signs around the place at the weekends? Are they required to comply with clause 117A? My understanding is that they are required to do so, so some changes may need to be made to the notices that they put up if they are working out of their car at the weekend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this clause is to require this information to be shown on notices, advertisements, and other publications that are issued by, or on behalf of, the agency or the agent. As the report of the Justice and Electoral Committee says, this will, hopefully, promote transparency and help to protect consumers by ensuring that information about the agent is readily available. So that is why that provision was inserted, and on its own we have no particular problem with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is to reiterate the excellent points made by Mr Roy and Mr King about the requirements where the land is sold by auction. There were a number of submissions on those particular provisions, and I am referring to clauses 136 to 141. As can be seen from the clauses, some of them are derived from the Property, Stock and Business Agents Act 2002 of New South Wales. The evidence we received from submitters was that these were designed for a particular problem that had occurred in New South Wales some years ago, thus necessitating the legislation, and they did not really fit into the New Zealand legislation. We made that point, and if one reads the National Party minority report, one will see that we said we thought the auction bidders record was impractical. We have heard this afternoon from several of my colleagues that this regime would not have worked at all, and that it would have been cumbersome and, frankly, silly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EEven though we are concerned about various aspects of the bill that remain, we are pleased that the Minister has heard what we were saying and has ignored his colleagues on the Justice and Electoral Committee. This proposal would not have worked and we are very pleased that it has been deleted. Because we need to get on with other parts of the bill and deal with the title and the third reading, I will not detain the Committee any further on Part 5. I just wanted to bring the Committee\u2019s attention to those two matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002248613feb63f449599c786523f11479bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248613feb63f449599c786523f11479bc\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation is opposed by the National Party, not because we do not want good legislation to apply to the industry but because I can assure members that the majority of the real estate agents in my Wairarapa electorate are seriously opposed to many of the provisions of this bill. They also took considerable umbrage at being invited by the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee, Ms Pillay, to come and make representations to the committee, and, after driving for an hour and a half from Masterton, being invited to appear before the committee for 5 minutes, only to face another hour and a half drive back to Masterton. That is, at best, totally rude and arrogant treatment by a Government that I hope our community will be putting the skids under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIn my view, the legislation in Part 5 is faulty, and reflective of our typical nanny State over-prescriptive attitude to developing legislation in this country. Let me give the example of clause 119, \u201CMoney to be held by agent for 10 working days\u201D. As someone who has bought and sold the odd property during his life, I can say that it is often absolutely out of the question that one would want to enter into a transaction that leaves the money sitting dead in an account for 10 working days. GST, for example, may apply to the transaction, and because of the phasing-in of GST income and payment arrangements it may be entirely inappropriate to keep this requirement for money to be held by the agent for 10 working days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EHowever, it is entirely appropriate that agents\u2019 trust accounts should be audited, as provided for in clause 121. I have no difficulty with that, at all. But I turn to the provisions concerning agency agreements\u2014in particular clause 124, \u201CNo entitlement to commission or expenses without agency agreement\u201D. As in my colleague Colin King\u2019s electorate down in Marlborough, a lot of transactions in my electorate of the Wairarapa are made on the basis of word-of-mouth trust between people who know each other. Very many transactions are never actually put on paper. At the moment I am involved in a transaction with a land agent that has nothing on paper. Each party entirely trusts the other to act in an honourable way. We do not need the over-prescription that is coming from a Government that is trying to prescribe the detail around every breath of every individual for his or her life, and his or her behaviour in that life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt also strikes me as very strange that a client can cancel a sole-agency arrangement by 5 p.m. on the next working day. What would be the difference between cancelling it then and cancelling it on the spot? Why are we engaged in interfering in the multitude of possible transactions between people and between individuals? The law cannot ever prescribe in detail the behaviour between two people. This legislation is attempting to over-prescribe and over-regulate behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt is of concern to National that auctioneering is removed from this legislation. Many transactions around property in the Wairarapa involve auctioning; it does not matter whether we are dealing with farm properties, residential properties, business properties, livestock, or other bits and pieces of agricultural material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI think it is also of concern that we should be winding up the Real Estate Agents Fidelity Guarantee Fund, because I was caught up in this sort of problem myself 20 years ago with the lawyers\u2019 fidelity fund, where a particular lawyer who was representing me banked some money that was owed to me as if it was his own. When one comes to seek the guarantee of these funds, it is actually quite hard to extract the payments from these bodies, even though one has been done down by a professional person. I think it is quite appropriate that there should be some arrangement so that if agents transgress, the small people in the community are able to recover some sort of compensation for being done down by somebody else. I will finish at this point, but I reiterate that there is strong opposition to this bill amongst the real estate agents in my electorate, and I do not support voting for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00227b64bcb5d0234bbd96c16af3e58522b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b64bcb5d0234bbd96c16af3e58522b1\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very short call to answer quickly a couple of questions members have raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think Mr Roy and Mr Finlayson, and latterly Mr Hayes, had a question around clause 119. They asked what would happen if the two parties do not want the money to be held for the 10-day period. Well, clause 119(2) makes it clear that the parties can sign an authority requiring the agent to pay the money before the 10-day expiry, if there is mutual agreement. It is quite simple, quite logical. I do not think many people would disagree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere were two other points. Mr Hayes lambasted my colleague Lynne Pillay in respect of the Justice and Electoral Committee, and said that people who had come from Masterton had had only 5 minutes before the committee. Mr Hayes has been on select committees for a few years now, and should know what happens\u2014and I think Mr Finlayson, who was a member of the select committee, quite rightly made reference to this matter. I am advised that as there were a large number of submissions, the members of the committee agreed that where submitters were going to make exactly the same point over and over again, they would be taken as a group. That is not unprecedented in the life of this Parliament or of other Parliaments, and it even occurred under a National regime some years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESimilarly, having chaired a select committee myself, I agree\u2014and I think most other members would agree\u2014with the observation made by Mr Finlayson that where a committee receives hundreds of xeroxed submissions with different people\u2019s names on them but saying exactly the same thing\u2014either that one supports a proposition or that one is agin it\u2014then hearing all those submitters is possibly not the most effective way to deal with the political process. Those submissions are noted, of course, but they are treated in a similar vein to a petition, which is very valuable but serves a different purpose in a different process. I think that where submitters come in simply to make a point that is going to be made over and over again, they should be grouped in order for the parliamentary process to be used in an efficient way. Maybe Opposition members of the committee would not say so publicly, but I suspect some of them appreciated Ms Pillay\u2019s management of the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make is that Mr Hayes waxed lyrical about the fact that he is in a professional relationship when he is doing a deal with a real estate agent, and does not need any protection at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d7ab8673be44709365ed748454705e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Waxed dissonant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5785c66e4a74b4190fafb1ddba523ce\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: He waxed dissonant, says my legal colleague\u2014I was going to say my learned friend, but he is a lawyer and I am not\u2014about the fact that he was in a professional relationship with a real estate agent over a property, he did not need any protection, and all would go well. Other members have asked about caveat emptor; what about buyer beware? To heck with it if something goes wrong, and to hell with the fact that some people in our society, through no fault of their own, do not have the legal qualifications or the professional skill to deal with these commercial arrangements; the market will sort it out. The market will sort it out, Mr Hayes said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b10249accf014b97b4d11a0e819b9cfd\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: If the market can\u2019t, the nanny State will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167d9e2630984c52b37577d3f5ebbb6c\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I would just make this final observation to Mr Hayes. He railed against our having any protection for the poor folk who may actually be done over\u2014and there are many examples of that happening. I bet that Mr Hayes would have a completely different attitude if he were on the receiving end, if he were being done over by an unethical person. I bet that Mr Hayes would stroll\u2014I was going to say sprint\u2014into the House and demand protection for consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf he does not demand protection for consumers, what does he say to his constituents who come to him with exactly the same proposition, saying that they did not think they needed any protection, because they felt confident that all would go well? They will ask Mr Hayes, as their local MP, to help them, because they have been dealt to, and Mr Hayes will turn round and say: \u201COh, it is nanny State to provide any protections for you lot\u2014my constituents in Wairarapa. Ii is nanny State. Go and fix it yourselves. It is your fault; you messed up.\u201D I wonder what his constituents would then say to him, or whether he could look them in the eye.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is a sort of global clich\u00E9 to say that having any protection for consumers amounts to having a nanny State. Well, if that is the case, we would not need a legal system, would we, I say to Mr Hayes. We would not need a legal system or a court system to protect people. We would not need a small claims tribunal, where people can take small issues\u2014under a monetary limit\u2014to have them sorted out, because that would be nanny State, would it not? I look forward to hearing what happens when Mr Hayes fronts up to his constituents. Well, he will be protected now, because we will have brought in this legislation, but I look forward to his telling us what he would do if he were in that situation. Even with his great academic prowess, his diplomatic career, and his experience, there is still a possibility that somebody in a professional relationship with him might act inappropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022593f53c86cef42a9b39f8f36ef06f0f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bc35ba4df2774874ad6db27969fb9f3f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227546cba0b3694289addb2747a50c0bb1\u0022\u003EPart 6  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022913af08b25e445e196ff5eba2c7916a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022913af08b25e445e196ff5eba2c7916a6\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for allowing me to take a brief call on Part 6, the final part of the Real Estate Agents Bill. This part relates to the miscellaneous provisions. It includes the offence and penalty provisions, provisions regarding civil remedies, provisions for regulations to be made by the Governor-General, and some transitional provisions, such as those concerning the Real Estate Agents Fidelity Guarantee Fund, existing claims, and applications that are pending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI will start by talking about the penalties regime. The penalties regime is interesting, in the sense of its relativity with that in other legislation. I think, sadly, it indicates that there has been a bit of a personal vendetta against the real estate industry. If we look at the penalties in this legislation and compare them with those in other legislation, we see that there is not a lot of relativity. I refer, for example, to the penalty for failure to notify the registrar of a change of circumstances. Under this bill the penalty for an individual is $25,000 and for a company it is $50,000. That is just for changing one\u2019s address and not notifying the registrar in time. It could be a mere administrative slip, which, of course, New Zealand First knows about. But the fine under the bill for that is $25,000, which I say does seem to be a bit excessive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThat is not to demean whatsoever the importance of making sure that changes of circumstances are notified. But under the bill the penalty is $25,000. If we compare that situation with, for example, the penalty for failure to notify the registrar of a change of circumstances under the Motor Vehicle Sales Act 2003, we find that the fine in that Act is only $2,000. There is a big difference between $2,000 and $25,000. Yes, one piece of legislation relates to selling cars and the other to selling property, and they have different Ministers in charge of them. Perhaps we should also go to the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act, which is a recent Act. The fine for failure to notify the registrar of a change of circumstances under that Act is $500, as opposed to $25,000 under this bill. The fine provided for in the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act is more in keeping with that in this bill; it is $10,000 for failure to notify the registrar of a change of circumstances. But, again, that is significantly less than the penalty provided for in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere is a penalty for failure to provide information, and again I will look at that from the point of view of relativity. Under this bill the fine is $25,000 for an individual and $50,000 for a company. If one compares that again with a similar offence under the Motor Vehicle Sales Act 2003, one finds that the fine for failing to provide information under that Act is $2,000\u2014not $25,000 for an individual, as it is under this bill. In the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act, and also in the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act, by way of comparison, the penalties under both Acts are $10,000 for the same offence, which is still significantly less than the $25,000 fine or penalty that is proposed to be imposed under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere are also offences set out in the bill that are not comparable with offences in the other Acts that I have used for the purpose of comparison. The failure to provide an approved guide again carries a fine of $25,000 for an individual and of $50,000 for a company. The fine for failure to provide a copy of a contractual document is, again, $25,000 for an individual and $50,000 for a company. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI really would be interested in the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, taking a call\u2014although I am not particularly optimistic about that\u2014and telling us how he has calculated and assessed the quantum of penalty for offences that, in some situations, can be just the result of a mere administrative oversight. I would also like the Minister to take a call even just to answer one question, which I have asked three times so far today. It is a very simple question: does the definition of residential property include, or does it not include, lifestyle properties? I will ask it again, because I really would like to receive an answer to it. Although I did say this would be a short call, I have got carried away, obviously, in relation to the penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI turn to the provision in Part 6 relating to the winding up of the Real Estate Agents Fidelity Guarantee Fund. We questioned the submitters on whether it should be wound up, and most of the submitters mentioned for a start that the two claims in recent history on the fund have related to property management, and not to real estate agency work itself. If one looks at the purpose of a fidelity fund, one sees it is a fund of last resort, so one first has to go through the courts. The fund is available in relation to theft, of course, and the ability of real estate agents to misappropriate money is possibly limited to the extent that they hold the deposit\u2014this is normally monitored by both the vendor\u2019s solicitor and the purchaser\u2019s solicitor\u2014during the conditional period of a contract, until it becomes confirmed as unconditional, and thereafter, perhaps, for the statutory period of 10 days, which was mentioned by previous speakers, unless, of course, that 10 days has been waived, which quite rightly can be done by agreement. The opportunity for an agent to actually misappropriate the funds is quite limited, so from that rationale it is possibly sensible to wind up the fidelity guarantee fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBut from the point of view of property management, for which the claims have been made against the fund, it does not make the same sense, because sometimes the funds are being held for overseas owners of property who might perhaps not check their accounts more than once a year, when they have to do their tax returns. So property managers have more scope than real estate agents to misappropriate the money of clients. None the less, Part 6 does provide for the winding up of that fidelity fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere are other transitional provisions, as well, that cover things where there are pending disciplinary proceedings, and that cover the effect of agency agreements that have been entered into before the new legislation comes into effect. The law that is applicable to them is the old 1976 Real Estate Agents Act. That provision had to be inserted in the bill at the behest of the Justice and Electoral Committee, because it had not been thought of by the Minister. And there are other miscellaneous provisions in Part 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI think Part 6 is generally fairly uncontentious, except for the quantum of the penalties, which seems to be somewhat high. One does have to wonder about the motivation behind setting such a high penalty for what is, in some cases, purely and merely an administrative oversight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd4c483dd08435c8029551993313b45\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Another tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3442bc0a8354b33b7d5b5aec2f2e0a7\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: It could indeed be another tax, but it is just another way of taking a personal vendetta against real estate agents and the real estate industry. The offences for which a real estate agent could be fined $25,000 or $50,000 are such that the circumstances would rarely affect the integrity of a transaction or actually have much of a detrimental effect on clients. In terms of relativity, certainly, we have concerns about the quantum of those penalties. I think, Mr Chair, that I will probably leave my discussion of Part 6 at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022592b221be7454236b3bd3798f4c7117b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022592b221be7454236b3bd3798f4c7117b\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a few brief points about Part 6. I endorse what Kate Wilkinson has said, and I certainly do not intend to repeat her comments about the strange level of the fines for some offences that simply do not seem to warrant it. During the select committee stage she undertook a very careful comparative analysis with other regulatory legislation. As she said, under the plumbers and gasfitters legislation a fine might be $500, but under this legislation it is $10,000. So it is out of kilter, and it would be good if the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, would take a call. If he does not want to talk about the generality of the legislation, I ask him to just take a look at clause 150, which deals with offences that will be committed if one fails to notify a change of circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat is a change of circumstances? Well, if one refers to what is still clause 66, we see that one has an obligation to notify the registrar of any change of circumstances, and that will mean, as subclause (2) states: \u201C(a) any change in the information recorded in the register; and (b) any change in the real estate business for which the agent, branch manager, or salesperson works (if any); and (c) any change that may be prescribed.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIf one looks at the purpose of the register, set out in clause 63, one sees that, again, it really is a consumer protection mechanism to enable the public to determine, for example, whether a person is a licensed agent or a branch manager, and how to contact that person. So in the overall scheme of things it is pretty low-level regulation. So it does seem rather strange that clause 150(2) has these penalties, up to $10,000 in the case of an individual or $50,000 in the case of a company. I could go through each of the offences provisions in some detail, but I think Kate Wilkinson\u2019s excellent overview should suffice, and my particular reference to clause 150 enables the Minister to come to grips with it if he chooses to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make concerns the insertion of new Subpart 2A in Part 6, which makes it clear that the civil remedies a person may have against an agent, branch manager, or salesperson are not affected by the passage of the legislation. This bill, as we have said, is consumer protection legislation. Although there are compensation provisions, it is primarily a disciplinary matter if there is misconduct of any sort, but civil remedies are preserved, and they will include claims against an agent under the Fair Trading Act, or for breach of contract or negligence if we have concurrent liability in this country now, and we probably have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe third point I make concerns the regulations. We have not yet had an answer from the Minister to the points Dr Worth raised in relation to clause 155(aa), and 155(2) and (3), and I hope that before the Committee stage draws to a close we will be able to hear from the Minister on those points, because the whole regulation-making power of the bill is important and needs a response from him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI would just observe in passing\u2014and it is in the category of a minor slip\u2014that although there are references to subclauses (2) and (3), in clause 155, there is no subclause (1), so that may need to be tidied up. The major changes that were made to the regulation-making power dealt with moving into clause 155 the provisions relating to exemptions that were formerly contained in clauses 12 and 13. There is still the rather strange reference in clause 11 to exemptions that may be granted under regulations; as I said, some inquiries were made and it seemed to relate only to a very few agents in the central North Island. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat are the other changes contained in the regulations? The regulations relating to audit have been tidied up. More detail is provided about the content of regulations regarding an audit. There are better regulations relating to the prescription of offences, so we have an amendment to clause 155(k), which sets the maximum penalty for any offence at, in the case of an individual, an amount not exceeding $25,000, or, in the case of a company, not exceeding $50,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThen there is a change relating to compensation. One sees that clause 155(m), which has been deleted, stated that regulations could prescribe the maximum amount of compensation payable under section 107. We had a useful discussion about that, and indeed we sought the advice of the Regulations Review Committee on the appropriateness of allowing such a matter to be set by regulation. Dr Worth and his committee reported to us, as a result of which we have acted on their recommendation, and the maximum compensation the tribunal can award is contained in the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo there are a couple of inconsistencies in the regulations, which the Minister may care to address. As Ms Wilkinson said, much of Part 6 is unexceptional and is in fact quite sensible, but there are the issues we have raised, and it would be good if the Minister would condescend to provide us with an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00225f7487af6b5c43ddb60524e554d2738b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f7487af6b5c43ddb60524e554d2738b\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to make one point, and it concerns the point Ms Wilkinson made about residential property. She will know that clause 4 states: \u201C \u2018residential property\u2019 means any property used, or intended to be used, exclusively or principally for residential purposes\u201D. Of course, it depends on the principal use. In case she is thinking of concocting some fear amongst the owners of lifestyle blocks in my wonderful electorate of Waimakariri, I just say that the only impact of whether their properties are deemed to be commercial or residential is that if they are commercial, the agent of which those people are a client does not have to provide them with a guide as to their rights and responsibilities and bits and pieces, and the maximum 90-day provision does not apply. Just in case Ms Wilkinson is thinking of banging out a press statement and frightening all the lifestyle blockers in Swannanoa, where she lives, and in other places, I say to her that there is no material effect on them, at all. If their property is deemed to be commercial, they are dealt with in the same way, effectively, that they are dealt with now. If their properties are deemed to be residential, then they sign up for 90 days, and they are protected because they have the option of pulling the pin on the sole-agency agreement. Also, the agent must provide them with a guide in respect of their rights and responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EJust in case any scaremongering was about to happen\u2014as the member is wont to do from time to time in my patch\u2014those comments should allay her fears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 155 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 155(a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276cfbde05b6b42f79ff8598d9e411b8b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000708\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226078cfd2100245fca8fcb7c1f3f21cfa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220b0140689a74f34af7f7deef7804329\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4d87083ac654498acd7f2e0d0c0a6a6\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022235b7249bbab42d6a04d6ff12116473b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022235b7249bbab42d6a04d6ff12116473b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that schedule 1 stand part. Those who are of that opinion please say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b2c914e07845f190daecb12cd9ef07\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would like a call on schedule 1, if that is possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422a0a4eb86e44e9b51750f0f9ab9ff3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that will not possible\u2014nor on schedule 2\u2014but you may have a call on clauses 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220ee74e06ebf844db9c3ce4e24bd654b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d8f5017f492498791f375a15133be4c\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000714\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to schedule 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000715\u0022\u003EUnder heading \u201CLawyers and Conveyancers Act (2006 No 1)\u201D to omit \u201Cunless the person has had at least 6 months experience as such as a licensee\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e6e4daa397440baac9421e760e597cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e0ac1c6bda045b899cda55f6cabffc6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c16c6b17cc3f478994c464505e7f8a86\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6561934080341d2bd0e658fbb63a3ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6561934080341d2bd0e658fbb63a3ee\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will be taking just a very short call in relation to clauses 1 and 2\u2014in particular, clause 2, which is the commencement date. The bill has certain sections that come into force on the day after the date that it receives the Royal assent, with the rest of it coming into force\u2014according to the bill\u201412 months after it receives that Royal assent. I am aware, of course, that there is a Supplementary Order Paper containing an amendment by the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, that increases the 12-month commencement date in relation to those sections by 2 months to 14 months. Concern has still been raised that the commencement date is far too soon to enable an industry to change its rules. This bill is reforming an industry, and that industry needs sufficient time to be able to do that properly. As a comparison, the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act had a 2-year transitional period for that regime to come into place. We would suggest\u2014and submitters have suggested it\u2014that 2 years is actually much more realistic than the amended 14 months that has been prescribed in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what is required to put into effect this new real estate regime, we see that there has to be a Real Estate Agency Authority set up. That authority has to appoint complaints assessment committees. The authority has to maintain a panel of 20 persons for those complaints assessment committees, and the Real Estate Agents Disciplinary Tribunal also has to be formed and constituted. So we have to make sure that we are responsible in allowing sufficient time for those various bodies to be set up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at time limits, it is also interesting to note that\u2014as I understand it\u2014the current code of conduct for the real estate industry has been on the Minister\u2019s desk awaiting approval since February of this year, which is some 7 months. If the Minister\u2019s amendment to the commencement date of 14 months is agreed to in the Committee this afternoon, it will take half of that time just to approve the code of conduct. I think we have to be realistic, and I think we have to be responsible in enabling a sufficient time for this regime\u2014it is a totally new regime, and a total reformation of the real estate industry\u2014to be put in place. I seek the Minister\u2019s assurance that he is confident that 14 months is sufficient to do this job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1b592c3a0c47e687a3b17edc94a70b\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451fa59fe5184441b685c0e49eecaa23\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister for that interjection. He has given us his absolute confirmation that 14 months is sufficient. Obviously, in the event he is proved incorrect, we will certainly be reminding him of the assurance that he has given in this Committee this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EApart from that, we still have concerns about the commencement date. We do not think that the concession of increasing it from 12 months to 14 months will be that material. The industry believes\u2014and National supports it in that respect\u2014that 2 years is a more realistic time frame. But once again, let it be recorded for the record that the Minister gave his absolute assurance that he is confident that 14 months will be sufficient for this purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00227af752c2f88c411495f6e34bb58d610b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227af752c2f88c411495f6e34bb58d610b\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E We are speaking to the Real Estate Agents Bill under urgency. It is a bill that the Government wants to ram through the House. At present we are debating the title and the commencement date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI have been thinking about appropriate names for the bill, which is overseen by the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. I wondered whether it should be called the \u201CCosgrove Sledgehammer Bill\u201D or, indeed, the \u201CCosgrove Hates Real Estate Agents Bill\u201D\u2014that is another option\u2014or the \u201CCosgrove Calls Them Land Sharks Bill\u201D. I have heard several interviews with the Minister where he has berated real estate agents in public and called them land sharks and shonky crooks. I cannot believe he would belittle people in our community who are actually doing their best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about Clayton Cosgrove wanting to make a name for himself. The Labour Party list has just come out. It is interesting to see the literature that has come into my hands. In the past, Clayton Cosgrove has wanted the people of Waimakariri to elect him to Parliament, but I see that that member, who is overseeing this bill, is now reliant on his placing on the list. It is ironic how things change when one puts one\u2019s finger in the air. The member overseeing this bill is now reliant on his placing on the list. How times have changed! I am sure that when we are on the campaign trail the good people of Waimakariri will be reminded that that member says one thing, then delivers another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI think an appropriate comment on this bill would be whether, although some in the industry support reform, its commencement date just 14 months from now gives sufficient time. It is a fairly big reform of the industry. National members would have thought that an appropriate commencement date would be in about 2 years\u2019 time, and in our minority report we put that recommendation. It is good that the Minister has acknowledged it, but he has moved the date by only a little bit\u2014about 2 months. It is also good to have on the record that the Minister and his officials believe that the date gives sufficient time for the measures to be implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe National Party has some real concerns about this bill, about the commencement date, and about whether the wording of the title is appropriate, and I have commented on those concerns this afternoon. I look forward to making even greater remarks when we move to the third reading this evening, under urgency. The Government will be ramming legislation through the House for 13 hours today\u2014we will sit until midnight\u2014and I look forward to my colleagues making some very good contributions in the third reading. We believe that this item is significant for the real estate industry, and that the Government is being too bureaucratic. It has got it wrong. That was conveyed during the select committee process, which attracted hundreds of submissions. It has taken the Government a long time to get the numbers to have this bill go through the House under urgency this evening. I look forward to the third reading, which will probably be after the dinner break, when we can make some further contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0b50932e844537814563b3dae7564c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0b50932e844537814563b3dae7564c\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I rise just before the dinner break to answer, finally, an issue on the commencement date. My learned friend Mr Charles Chauvel, a lawyer of some eminence, has pointed out to me that the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, which has been aptly quoted in the Committee as having a 2-year transition, includes some 50 sets of regulations and rules that require ministerial and Cabinet approval, etc. With this legislation, there are 16 matters\u2014not sets of regulations, but matters\u2014to be regulated, and there are also practice rules to be put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have been asked whether I am confident we can achieve the objective within 14 months. Yes, I am. Why? Because it is core business of the Ministry of Justice. We are blessed with officials who have guided this process and have provided very, very sound advice\u2014despite the Opposition\u2019s nay-saying. I am confident the objective will be met, given that there are precedents for the setting up of these agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note in passing, as we debate the title, that there are a number of titles we could have given this bill. We could have called it the \u201CConsumer Protection Bill\u201D, or we could have given it a name showing that the Labour-led Government was doing something that the National Government\u2014by Mr Worth\u2019s own admission\u2014did not do, even though throughout its 9 years in office the real estate folk had asked it to do something. It had other things to do, so it did nothing about this issue. I may be doing Dr Worth a disservice; it was one of the National Party members who said that. So, yes, the Real Estate Institute came to this Government, yes, we have acted, and, no, we have not acted, I suspect, in the way that certain people in the real estate leadership wanted us to. One learned lawyer in this place\u2014I do not think he is here\u2014advised me that they spent about a million dollars of their members\u2019 money on hiring the most expensive lobbyists in New Zealand. I even saw a video that those lobbyists\u2014who, I am told, also represent those eminent and morally upstanding party pill manufacturers\u2014made on how to make a submission, and 1,300-plus people wrote submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EWe have got to a place now where we could quite rightly, if we wanted to, call this bill consumer protection legislation, because it has been endorsed by Sue Chetwin of Consumer New Zealand, and, before her, by David Russell, who was pre-eminent in drawing a number of these issues to my attention and to the attention of others. We could call this bill a number of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Government started this process not 2 years ago. We took it from an idea to reality. Issues had been raised by people like Deb Leask and other victims, and by the real estate folk who wanted the name of their profession restored. We put out a discussion document, we met on several occasions with the Real Estate Institute, we put a bill before the House, and here we are. I believe that the extra 2 months\u2014because of the legislative schedule, there will be a delay of a couple of months; we are moving to an election\u2014will allow a little more flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ETo come back to the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, I think it is erroneous to compare this bill with that Act\u2014and I suspect the lawyers on that side, including Ms Wilkinson, may have worked this out\u2014because that Act is major legislation. This bill is basic consumer protection legislation. This is not rocket science. This is basic consumer protection legislation in which standards are set and monitoring is put in place. People who run amok can be hammered\u2014I make no apology for it\u2014victims can be compensated, and the name of the profession can be restored. But I think it is a bit rich for members opposite to say we should make consumers wait 2 years, when those members were approached by the Real Estate Institute time and time again when they were in Government, and in 9 years did nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that today, throughout this lengthy debate, not one member of the National Party, or anyone else who opposes this bill, has come up with one alternative proposal. I look forward to National announcing its real estate policy and telling us whether it would repeal this legislation. I look forward to that. Do those members have an alternative? Does the eminent lawyer Ms Wilkinson present an alternative to us? Oh no, those members bleat on and bemoan the fact that this Government has got off its chuff and actually looked to protect consumers. I respect the fact that those members do not agree with the vehicle. That is fine. I respect the fact that they do not agree with a lot of the propositions, although I still do not know why\u2014apart from the fact that they keep levelling at me that I have a vendetta against real estate folk. Well, I understand that to have a vendetta one has to have been wronged, I think\u2014the eminent lawyers to my right will tell me. Normally, with a vendetta\u2014if one wants revenge\u2014one has to have been wronged. Well, I have been involved in real estate transactions and I have had no problem at all with any of the real estate folk I have dealt with. There is no vendetta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220cdfc37244da4adab8a01f4d40db430b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000735\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000736\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278befdab6aeb4c95b38c22a33e7706ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c3596a7a8a9457f84eaac111dc7ede6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment from the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2(2) is now ruled out of order because it is inconsistent with the previous decision of the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a9a65b9788fe43d9a1713404d440f848\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000738\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000739\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c50f783bd944ee2afad57ba6c768398\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002250be246ce55f4d63a0ec9e123ae3ad24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250be246ce55f4d63a0ec9e123ae3ad24\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Real Estate Agents Bill be now read a third time. I take great delight in doing so. I open the debate by making a couple of thankyous. Firstly, I thank a number of people outside this place. I thank a woman called Deb Leask, who is a victim of some of the disreputable behaviour of the minority of agents in the real estate industry. When these issues were brought to my attention, she was brave enough to expose her personal issues in respect of her transaction and to demand that there be change. As for other victims who deserve to be noted, I mention also the late Bronwyn Hilbron and her family, who have yet to see justice for what she went through. I pay tribute to the Ottaways and to all the other folk who either wrote to me or went to the media and outlined situations where they felt, rightly or wrongly, they had been wronged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI also note that throughout the debate on this bill, the National members have brought up only two examples of consumers who had been wronged. Rarely did they acknowledge that there was any issue in the industry to address. In the National Party\u2019s view, of course, we have nirvana: there is no issue, there is no problem, and no real estate agent has wronged a Kiwi. I tend to disagree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is often said that the three most important things in real estate are location, location, location. Well, in just over an hour the four most important things in the real estate sector will be the consumer, the consumer, the consumer, and as well those innocent and professional real estate agents whose professional skill and reputation is degraded every time one of their number runs amok. I have been accused in this debate of all sorts of things: of being vengeful and of having a vendetta\u2014I think that colourful language was used. Even Simon Power cringes at that. Some of his colleagues actually used that term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263937cfb46f74afe8672ab43e5ca92cd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d93e90de8414f6cbe703d975eeb97f2\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: No, Simon Power did not use it. I make this point: I have no vendetta against the real estate industry. I have engaged in private real estate transactions and used agents before, and they were outstanding. By definition, to have a vendetta means that I personally have been wronged. Well, I personally have not been wronged. I am one of the lucky people who have had good dealings with reputable, professional agents. But I and this Government make no apology for perhaps using some colourful language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI respect Mr Dunne. He knocked off the common-sense, Mr Nice Guy routine today, put the boots on, and had a good crack at me. That is OK\u2014that is called democracy, and I respect his view. But I make no apology for calling those who did consumers over land sharks, and I make no apology for saying there are rogues in the industry, because there are. Agents told me about, and wrote to me with, examples of them. I make no apology for taking the Queen\u2019s shilling, doing my job, and, as a public servant, standing by every Kiwi who has been done over. That is called doing one\u2019s job as a member of Parliament. I heard propaganda from National members who said I had lambasted everybody in the industry for being a land shark, a rogue, or whatever the term was. Well, they will keep saying that; they will say it again in their repetitive speeches tonight. The facts are, and the press statements show, that that was never the case. That was a myth, created by some in the industry and perpetuated and promoted by the National Party. But who cares about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe most important people in this whole deal are the honest real estate agents and the consumers. Tonight they will have protection. There has been criticism, for instance, that this bill does not deal with property managers. Well, we have announced that there will be a review\u2014a review that will take place within the 14-month period before this legislation is implemented after it is enacted. If the review provides evidence and fact, not hearsay and piffle\u2014such as the ring-arounds from various people in the industry who said that one in five complaints was about property managers, but who provided no evidence of that\u2014and if legislation is required, that legislation will be brought to the House, enacted, and implemented, and it will come into force at the same time as this legislation, in 14 months\u2019 time. It will be a concerted, measured approach to an issue on which very little evidence has been provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thank the officials. I will not name them, because they may at some time want to buy or sell a property, and they may get into some difficulty if it is known they worked on this bill with me. But the officials are from the Ministry of Justice, and they know who they are. They did a stunning job under, I might say, some duress. I pay tribute to the Justice and Electoral Committee, but I say one of the disappointments in the process concerned the way that committee members were treated by some people. There was some bullying of officials. I am told that highly paid lobbyists got a million bucks from the industry. I think Ms Chen was the key lobbyist\u2014I am told that she also represents the party pill manufacturers, so members should work that one out. I think those people did not act as they should have acted, in terms of the pressure that was brought to bear on some people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thank my colleague Lynne Pillay, and Simon Power. We did have a difference of view, but I respect Simon. Mr Finlayson, who, I think, also became tired of hearing the rote submissions, made a contribution, as did Ms Wilkinson and others, and on our side of the select committee, of course, Charles Chauvel, a learned lawyer, and Louisa Wall. They managed a very difficult process. The committee members managed a huge number of submissions, and they came under pressure and took the hit from many in the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI look forward to working with this industry. I think this bill gives us a wonderful opportunity to get rid of the bad guys. We will restore, recover, and promote the positive work of those in real estate, restore the faith that consumers in our community should have in this industry, and people\u2014men and women\u2014will be able to hold their heads up high. This is not rocket science; this is basic consumer protection legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI just say to the National Party members, as they warm up and put the liniment on, getting ready to go into this debate, that they have not served consumers or the New Zealand public well. They have talked about the industry at length, promoting and safeguarding it; they have not talked about ordinary Kiwis. And I make this point to those who have listened to the debate on this bill: there has been not one policy, not one idea, and not one alternative from National. I do not mind criticism; I think it is good to have a contest of ideas. If Simon Power and Kate Wilkinson get into Government, will they repeal this legislation? Will they tell us that? Will they announce their policy on the real estate industry? I do not think so. Once they go into the communities and talk to constituents and real people, will they find people who disagree with having their biggest property transaction, and the biggest asset in their lives, protected? People will know that if something happens and they feel aggrieved, they can go to an independent authority. If a person wins his or her case the offender can be struck off and can be fined, and the victim can get compensation and feel good about himself or herself, unlike the situation now, where it costs 750 bucks to bring a complaint and the gatekeepers determine whether they will even look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI do say this: I think there are times in this Parliament when we should put a bit of the pettiness aside, and I think Mr Power\u2014I will not talk about the other National members\u2014as a lawyer, genuinely believes that consumers should be protected. I think he genuinely knows they need to be protected, because he has probably dealt with a number of constituents, so he knows that people have been done over and there was a need for change. This industry was given a couple of chances to implement change itself, and it chose not to. Communities demanded that we act, and we have acted. That crew over there on the National benches had 9 years. They were approached by concerned people\u2014they admitted that; I think it was Mr Carter or Mr Worth who did so\u2014and they said, by their own admission in the debate, that they did nothing about the industry. I am prepared to cop the criticism, the name-calling, and all that drama. But I say, where is National\u2019s policy, where are the ideas, and where is the alternative to this bill? I thank the Justice and Electoral Committee, Parliament, the officials, the victims, and the honest real estate folk who will be able to hold their heads up high as they proceed through these reforms and their industry is restored to the status it should have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00222f1b233066cc4905b0da4d3496539e32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f1b233066cc4905b0da4d3496539e32\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to lead off on behalf of National in relation to the third reading of the Real Estate Agents Bill. Can I say from the outset, and we have always said from the outset, that we support wholeheartedly and absolutely the purpose of this bill. The purpose of this bill is to promote public confidence in the performance of real estate agency work and to protect the interests of consumers in respect of transactions that relate to real estate. The Minister mentioned before that the three most important things in real estate are consumer, consumer, consumer. During the Committee stage he actually said he was part of a listening Government. I would just like to put on the record that the Hon Peter Dunne had some very sensible and practical amendments to this legislation that National did support. One of those suggested amendments was that the authority must consult with the industry training organisation for the real estate industry. The second one was that the qualifications\u2014the experience of real estate salespeople\u2014should not be 2 years out of 10 years, or as amended by the Minister 3 years out of 10 years, but 5 years out of 10 years. That is to protect the consumer. That is all about the consumer. There was nothing subversive about that, nothing radical about that, but did the Government members listen to that? No, they did not. They ignored it completely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill should have been an easy bill. This is not an industry that was dragged, kicking and screaming\u2014to quote the Minister\u2014to reform. This was not that situation at all. The industry itself has been asking for reform for over 10 years. Yet the Ministers of the day said that it was not part of their policy priorities. The industry had been saying for 10 years that it wanted reform. Mr Dunne mentioned two matters that could quite easily have helped the situation and protected consumers. One was to actually put in place the regional disciplinary committees. They are already provided for under the existing legislation. What did the Minister do? He had the opportunity, and he had the power. In fact, he was empowered to appoint lay observers on that committee and to validate that committee. For more than 10 years he did not do so, so we did not have any regional disciplinary committees to deal with some of those complaints at that early stage to expedite the complaint process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe other suggestion, and again the industry had been asking for it for over 10 years, was to increase the amount of the fines; $750 admittedly was not sufficient. The industry did not think it was sufficient, the Government did not think it was sufficient, we did not think it was sufficient, but for 10 years or more the Minister had been approached by the industry. The Government has had four official approaches in the last 10 years by presidents and others of the real estate industry to address these matters, and what did this Government do? It did absolutely nothing, until this Minister decided he would go on a real estate crusade and talk about land sharks in the industry, talk about carnage, and talk about cowboys\u2014he decided that this would be his crusade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWell, we now have a bill at its third reading. The National Party minority report\u2014and we did do a lot of work during the select committee process\u2014actually expressed some concerns. It is, at least, satisfying to some extent that some of our objections have been addressed. The uncertainty created by the 5-year review of the employment status of real estate agents has been addressed. That is no longer hanging over the heads of salespeople not knowing whether they are employed or self-employed. There is still the issue that has to be addressed between what is meant by supervision as opposed to effective control under the existing legislation, which has been tested in the courts. Now we have new phrases and I am sure they will be tested in the courts as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe auctioneers provisions in this bill had a bidders record, and it was the most unrealistic, impractical section of legislation that I have seen for a long, long time. Thankfully again, that was taken out of the bill by a Supplementary Order Paper of the Minister, and so it should have been. Who on earth would want to have to keep a bidders record for 3 years even before a bidder knew he or she was going to bid, because it might be a spur of the moment bid for a property, and the vendor wants to get the best price, and he or she had to produce identification\u2014had to produce a passport. Now who takes a passport along to an auction if he or she wants to buy a property? Thankfully\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e1be2946b5c4ee495ba9146fb7c5856\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: They could take one of those new ones of Rick Barker\u2019s!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4d1f3063f344893a85e51d9759bbe78\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, one of the microchip ones; maybe that would work. But, thankfully, that provision was also deleted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill is about consumer protection, and it should be about consumer protection. But it should also be about making responsible law, and certain law. Now, I asked the Minister, and I had to ask him about five times during the Committee stage, what the definition of residential property was, because that is very important and it is actually covered several times in the bill. I said: \u201CAre lifestyle properties included, or not included, in the definition of residential property?\u201D. That is material to whether the client can cancel a sole agency agreement. Finally, after the fifth question, he did say that yes, it is. The reason I asked that question is that I wanted an assurance. Believe it or not, some people actually read the Hansard transcripts to get some idea of what is intended by the legislation and by the parties in this House. I wanted it recorded in Hansard that the Minister intended, by his legislation, that lifestyle properties would be defined and included in the definition of residential property. Although that might seem a small matter, it is not a small matter if one has a vendor client who has the uncertainty of not knowing whether his or her lifestyle property is residential and cancels one sole agency agreement and enters into another, and suddenly finds out that his or her property does not come within that definition, it is not excluded, and therefore he or she has to pay two commissions. That, on the ground, is one of the very practical things that has to be addressed by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe also heard the definition of real estate agency work, and the definition of transaction, and the situation regarding shares and whether, for example, a rural property owned by a company, which the parties decide to sell by way of shares rather than by way of real estate, would be caught by this bill. We have had no clarification whatsoever. This bill still leads to a lot of uncertainty, and uncertain law is not good law whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EProperty management is not included in this bill. We have heard arguments that it comes outside the scope of the bill, but that did not seem to matter with KiwiSaver, in relation to the meal breaks bill. Even though it was outside the scope, it was included. So why is it not included here? Property management is an integral part of the real estate industry. We heard that the only claims in recent years against the fidelity fund were in relation to property management. We have seen in the headlines the scenario with Blue Chip. Property managers have more opportunity to misappropriate funds than do real estate agents, because of the length of time that the money is held in their trust account. Now that property managers are not regulated, they do not have to have a trust account and they do not have to be audited. In fact, one real estate agency in Christchurch said that this will save it $10,000 a year in agency fees. And this is supposed to be legislation for the protection of the consumer! This is not legislation for the protection of the consumer. This bill waters down that protection of the consumer. Property management is such an integral part of real estate that it should have been included. I think it is negligent that it is not included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ECan I just finish by saying that of course we support legislation that protects the consumer. Of course we support legislation to reform an industry, when that industry itself wants it and needs it, and the consumer wants it and needs it. But this legislation does not do that. This legislation is a missed opportunity. It is a disappointment and it is a missed opportunity, because of the attitude of some Government members, and in particular of the author of the bill. I think that is sad because we do not have workable legislation, and at the end of the day the consumer will not be more protected by this than under the existing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u002261ab7f96b3994cb7a0165e669baccc0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ab7f96b3994cb7a0165e669baccc0d\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be able to speak in the third reading debate of legislation that provides for a long-overdue overhaul of the Real Estate Agents Act 1976. It delivers on the Government\u2019s promise to bring accountability, transparency, and openness to the real estate sector, and to establish an independent complaints system that really does protect consumers and supports honest real estate professionals, who, as the Minister has said time and time again, and as we saw at the select committee, constitute the vast majority of participants in this industry. It is correct and right that this bill should put an end to the industry\u2019s self-regulation and introduce a range of consumer protection measures, including compensation on a proper basis for consumers who have been ripped off. I was astounded to hear the previous speaker say that this legislation waters down existing protections. All one needs to do is read through the bill to see that in fact the protections are massively strengthened, and that is great for consumers and for those honest, hard-working real estate agents who form the backbone of the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe select committee process was robust, and I was really pleased to participate in it as a Government member. I think the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee, my colleague Lynne Pillay, did a terrific job of making sure that people had dignified hearings and understood that they were being listened to with respect, which is an important part of the process of Parliament interacting with the people. I am also interested in the reforms that are enacted in the Supplementary Order Paper, and on reflection I think they are sensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ERescinding the requirement to review the employment status of salespersons is appropriate, but I do not think we should lose sight of the issue that alone in New Zealand employment law, along, perhaps, with sharemilkers, real estate agents have this odd statutory provision that entitles them to be regarded as employees, whether or not all the other indicia and tests as to employment status exist. We heard evidence in the select committee that this leads to a race to the bottom in boom times. We are not in those times any more, so it might be that we have a temporary reprieve from the problems that having a compulsory employment status lead to. Let us face it, the reality is that should a review of the status of real estate agents be required at some point, it can always be done at the behest of the Minister. It does not need legislation to require it. It is probably appropriate, given the circumstances that we find ourselves in, to rescind that requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI think also, on reflection, the decision to rescind the regulation of the conduct of auctions is probably the right way to go. The major evil that the original provisions were designed to deal with was the issue of dummy bidding, not that that seemed to register with the Opposition, ironically. But we did hear evidence that the real estate industry is taking significant steps to clean up its act in that area. I am very confident that through its consumer-education role the new Real Estate Agents Authority, which the legislation will create, will ensure that consumers are aware of the issues that may affect them if buying or selling real estate through auctions, for example. Again, we can be confident that there are measures in the legislation that will deal with the evil that it was intended originally to address by regulating auctions in the way that was intended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI think the decision to raise the experience criterion for a licensed agent or branch manager from 2 out of 10 years to 3 out of 10 years is the right way to go. Clearly we need to address the concern we heard in the committee that 2 years\u2019 experience over the last 10 years is not sufficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EFinally, on reflection the decision to formally require consultation with the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand over appointments to the authority and the disciplinary tribunal is appropriate to ensure that the transition between the current regulatory regime and the proposed one is smooth. As I said in my Committee stage speech, that was probably going to be a requirement on the Minister anyway, given the provisions of the Crown Entities Act to appoint appropriately qualified people. That would have required some sort of consultation process with industry anyway, so we will probably end up with the same sort of result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI have already acknowledged the sterling efforts of the chair of the select committee. I mentioned the work of the officials in my second reading speech and I will not name them, as the Minister refrained from doing, but I do want to express gratitude to them on behalf of the committee for their hard work. I would also like to acknowledge the majority of agents who came before the committee and made responsible submissions. They showed us that they intend to muck in and work through the issues that they need to in their industry to make sure that there is proper public confidence in that industry. I wish them well in the tougher economic times that we are experiencing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI did want to comment on one other matter, though. I refer to the praise that was heaped upon the Supplementary Order Paper moved earlier in the House by Peter Dunne and supported by the National Party. There is a regrettable trend in this House, in my respectful view, that persons who do not attend select committees none the less come into the House to speak, move amendments, and vote as if they are somehow greatly informed by the consultation process that we have been through. The reality is that the committee process exists for a reason, and my money generally will go with the amendments that have stood the test of the select committee process, rather than on a fly-by-night basis, without having heard the evidence. I am afraid that Supplementary Order Paper clearly comes into that category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is a matter of regret that the National Party has chosen to maintain what I regard as its pro forma opposition to this legislation\u2014just opposing for the sake of opposing. But the public is wising up to the National Party, as the Roy Morgan poll shows tonight, with a gap closing from over 21 percent to just over 6 percent and over half the people saying the country is on the right track. That is because this is a Government that is in touch with what Kiwis want, unlike the Opposition. The Opposition has only three approaches: copying the policies of this Government, keeping secret what its policies are from ordinary Kiwis, and just going through ritualistic opposition on bills like this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b7de677d9d48a7a48b6ffd3dadcec9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member knows it is not appropriate to mislead the House. There is no way that we are copying Labour Party policies, because there are none on its website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205989bdb83c64e9b9c220e1b1535c26e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Brownlee. I was looking for a point of order, but not that one. I thought you might think the member was being irrelevant. That being the case, yours was not a point of order and the member will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4de90f78e043fa81ecf7274402cd18\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am worried about the member\u2019s relevance but I did notice that one of the Ministers took time to release one of our policies tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87853ce37424e74bbeb77aa2b80a1db\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, Mr Brownlee. Thank you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233164457d49c4bbaacfb99b27f7da161\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry I have upset Mr Brownlee so much with the good poll news that the Labour Party is enjoying at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAll I would say in conclusion is that Kiwis are not fooled by the National Party\u2019s approach and they will rightly welcome this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022978f93f0b86444499273b24e898c8262\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022978f93f0b86444499273b24e898c8262\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E It never ceases to amaze me how sure of themselves the Labour Party members are on these issues. Over the last 18 months, while National has been so far ahead of Labour in the polls, we have modestly gone about our work. Tonight the Labour Party members find one rogue poll and they are cock-a-hoop in this House, telling us it is all over and they are on the way back. Well, I have news for them: they should just wait another 10 days. That is all I have to say about that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Real Estate Agents Bill is worth a few cursory remarks on the way through. I will start by saying the Labour Government had an opportunity at the first reading to get this legislation right. When the Minister came to this House and put this bill before the debating chamber, National Party members pointed out at that stage the five or six things that would have to be changed in the legislation in order to make it work. Not only did we do that but we stood and told Government members which provisions of the legislation we supported. Our position on those matters and those factors has never changed; it has been perfectly consistent from the day when I and my colleagues stood up and took first reading speeches on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat happened on the other side of the House? On the other side, with regard to this legislation, we had the Minister storming through the House and announcing the fact that there was to be legislation to wipe out land sharks; he announced that at least five or six times before the legislation was finally introduced. He stood in this House and told us that the Justice and Electoral Committee would do its work. The Government refused to listen to the advice of the submitters to that committee. It brushed them aside as though they did not understand the important points that they were supposed to understand. The officials struggled with the bill because of the practicality of what was being offered by the submitters, but the directions from the Government made the officials be pushed and pulled in a completely different direction. They are to be commended for weathering the appalling arrangement that we had to endure in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThen the Minister was so sure of himself and of the numbers he had to secure the passage of this legislation that the bill was reported back to the House. Once again, National took the opportunity, in the minority report on the bill, to put on record the five or six things\u2014the same five or six things that we had pointed out in the first reading\u2014that needed to be changed in order for the legislation to work. The Government said no, it knew best what would work, and said it had the numbers to pass the bill. Let us pause in time. The Government did not have the numbers to pass the bill; that became apparent immediately upon the report back. What position did that leave the Government in? It left the Government in the position of having to negotiate\u2014funnily enough\u2014on four out of the five or six things that the National Party had said right from the start had to be changed in order for this legislation to progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ENow, I do not know about the deals that were done with other political parties to ensure that the numbers were stitched together in order for this legislation to pass. But whichever political parties were involved, I congratulate them on recognising that four of the points where the Government rolled over were matters introduced by the National Party\u2014matters raised at the first reading of this bill, raised by the National Party through the select committee, and raised in the report back\u2014and still being raised by the National Party today. The question is, given that the Government knew those changes had to be made, why it did not hear submissions on them. What an appalling process it was when the Government said it would not listen to any of the submitters or take any of their advice. It decided it was pressing ahead, but, if it had to do a deal to get the numbers to make the legislation work, well, at the ninth hour it would introduce a Supplementary Order Paper with all the changes on it that the National Party had suggested 4\u00BD months ago. What an appalling process! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe problem is that the Government has left out the most important changes, and that is why the National Party continues to take exception not only to the procedural arrogance and deficiencies surrounding this bill but to matters of substance, as well. We know, for example, that the short transitional period is nowhere near the length that was made available under the lawyers and conveyancers legislation, which is an equivalent industry-based statute. This bill has provided for nowhere near that period. Property management is left outside the bill, despite the Government being told time and time again by submitters that it should be included in it. The Minister had the ability to fix that during the Committee stage, and he declined to do so. We also know that the experience requirement for a licence has been increased from 2 years\u2019 experience in the previous 10 years, to 3 years\u2019 experience in the previous 10 years. But we have said all along that 3 years\u2019 experience in the previous 5 years is a preferable formula. There were missed opportunities to deal with auctioneers and their particular regime, but more specifically, there is the missed opportunity relating to property managers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe process around this bill, when compared with the way Lianne Dalziel dealt with the financial advisers legislation, has been nothing short of combative and unnecessary. Right from the start, had the approach by the Minister and the Government been to try to get workable legislation in place, we would not have had to endure the farce that ended up with Supplementary Order Paper 243 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove being introduced at the very last minute, as part of a political deal stitched together on four or five matters the Government had refused to listen to the National Party on right from the start. That just proves that no one political party has all the ability, all the knowledge, and all the right contacts to make the process work in a way that would have seen this bill advance in a much more satisfactory manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI conclude by thanking the thousands of people in the industry who took the opportunity to make submissions. It is just a shame they did not have that opportunity with regard to the amendments on the Supplementary Order Paper. But they did make submissions on the bill at the select committee hearings chaired by the honourable member Lynne Pillay. I attended many of those hearings, and I say the submitters who came before the committee were, by and large, extremely positive, in the sense that they wanted to engage on the bill\u2014because they probably had not had an opportunity to do so up until then\u2014and they came along with some pretty constructive and positive suggestions to make. I just think it is a shame that because of the Minister\u2019s blind adherence to a policy that was set up in a combative and direct framework, we did not take the opportunities to make those changes earlier, in a decent and coherent manner\u2014changes that have ended up having to be made at the last minute by way of the Supplementary Order Paper. So National will continue to oppose this legislation on those substantive issues and process issues. The Minister, when he made his contribution, said he wanted to know our policy in respect of this matter, so I will advise him of it again. If the Minister is listening, I tell him that it is the same five points that we made at the first reading, it is the same five points that we made at the second reading, it is the stuff we had in our minority report on the bill, and it is the same points that we are making here again tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002289ae3275c2a94a36898869beb483a68c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289ae3275c2a94a36898869beb483a68c\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My presentation in this the third reading of the Real Estate Agents Bill probably will not be as dramatic as that of the previous speaker, Simon Power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea2d6ba2ebc474e8314456c198a43bc\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What about as loud?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8e8edddc4b492da33dd763e58c3996\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need to be. But I ought to say that I do agree with one of his sentiments, and that is that no one political party has all the answers. I always thought that politics was about getting the numbers, and to get the numbers one had to negotiate one\u2019s own positions. Notwithstanding who may have been responsible for the five points the previous speaker alluded to, I think the important thing for consumers in this country is that this bill will give them confidence in the profession of real estate agents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill, as we have done, right from the start. In the first reading, when one of my colleagues made our presentation, we supported this bill going to select committee. Why? To allow the people of New Zealand to have their say. As the report back from the committee indicates, over 1,300 submissions were received. Hearings were recorded to almost 700 of those submitters. Quite clearly there was a need for change. Quite clearly any change required responsible law. In both cases, this bill does provide that. Part of the responsibility is providing consumer protection, but also protection to those within the profession. This bill establishes the Real Estate Agents Authority, which will essentially be a Crown entity. It will consist of seven members, all requiring certain qualifications in order to sit on that board. It brings to an end self-regulation, which has pervaded this profession up to this point in time. It is that self-regulation that has drawn the criticism from the general public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI have heard comments about the attitude taken by the Minister. Other Ministers may have approached the legislation quite differently, but I think it is important that at the end of the day we end up with legislation that is responsible and provides increased protection for the consumer. The bill outlines a complaints and discipline procedure. We think these procedures allow issues to be dealt with quickly and justly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAnother point raised by critics of the bill was the issue of property management. I said in my second reading speech that property management was outside the scope of this bill. A subsequent speaker said that it was not. However, when I made reference to consideration being given by the Minister to having the whole issue of property management reviewed, he indicated that that review would fall in line with the time in which this bill is to come into effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier on, this bill will go a long way to restoring the confidence of the New Zealand consumer in this profession. I know that probably some members within that profession will feel that the bill goes too far; others, conversely, will think that the bill does not go far enough. With regard to those people who have criticised the bill in this House today, I wonder what they will do if they are given the opportunity to be in Government, and whether, if their criticism of this bill is such, that they would repeal it. No comment was made in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI want to also make reference to criticism about the Supplementary Order Paper that allows a 14-month time frame for the bill to take place. There was comment about the fact that in the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act they required a period of 2 years. My response to that is: why should the New Zealand consumer have to wait 2 years before the protection that this bill will afford them kicks in? I personally think that even 14 months may be too long, but it is much shorter than the 2 years that some people in this House would like to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI do not need to go on any further about this bill. I think the Supplementary Order Paper introduced by the Minister addresses a lot of the concerns that critics of this bill had. I take this opportunity to thank the members of the select committee. I also take the opportunity to thank the Minister for allowing New Zealand First to make its submissions and express our concerns about the bill, which has seen some of our concerns addressed in the Supplementary Order Paper. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a137f8c7a984b728bde39c206e092fd\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022674720bdbce8486686392204879db0d1\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221f18d85b229f48a990157a0ed4adf012\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f18d85b229f48a990157a0ed4adf012\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all bills on the urgency motion to be discharged at the end of this third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec600dc493f445bea19bf573f33faa71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec600dc493f445bea19bf573f33faa71\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224139f4df2e64e29bdb57cb8fba88cce\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order, sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454adb2502ca408180ce6d2a551f4976\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member care to repeat it? I do not think the whips heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4497ff4a38a4cf381174dd8e2a5a090\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: They were not listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b411de27bb7e4caba9bfe7318185e79f\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: We have to be allowed to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c24a5c3fe14ebdade873d040c297ca\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I did. The member was on the phone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022852786b54b20474eac02a897a66a5c81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022852786b54b20474eac02a897a66a5c81\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not hear the point of order. I was just wondering whether the member could repeat it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022e83e46fce5b04d52af404c4be9588c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e83e46fce5b04d52af404c4be9588c76\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225706bd0bbfe844b4ba7f16f678b40feb\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot have a point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8f2348af8eb4fae89e14eb6b1a07919\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: There is a point of order on the floor, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0abad1ff1664c7c90c3f979a9c8c6b1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022440f495d2df246e8aaac6efce065d1d6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I have a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c6d2e06feb2476daad50ce59380b407\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I sought leave\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704674227e934b4f9b3ff7a79dfac18c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I am on my feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d3ba2dfca04372a2a486ce905a60a7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I sought leave. You cannot override the Standing Orders like that. You must put the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022facaa02f33a0485abfa4299c273adaba\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, there is a point of order on the floor on my right. The member is perfectly entitled to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff385b2924924393beb669b4e0c8b55f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What Standing Order gives her the right for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f36af326b4b4307bbe2d090ec6e3776\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the honourable member Sue Moroney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa14abb57bfe453d8bea6abf7bdb8268\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot have a point of order when you already have a point of order. I sought leave\u2014your only option is to put the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdbc0cc03a84c45a7b94f9228cdabd3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, please be seated. I am on my feet. You know the rules\u2014you are a longstanding member and you know precisely what the situation is. There is a thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235fbb5f70441485784e1df3741c02718\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot take a point of order when there is a point of order on the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232faa47232e94e3e980e5091a059f06d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: There is such a thing in the House as common courtesy. The members did not hear what you said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203805f5daa194acebc14892a4146d4cc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I will say it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022839dd7b2ceb0422aa9e2654498add5ba\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I think that might help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221f4bd64790064b7b80ed467247f06e90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f4bd64790064b7b80ed467247f06e90\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I simply sought leave for the House to discharge all bills listed in the urgency motion at the conclusion of this third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c950b1613fb4c72839265cf1a9b19a8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002238206c20a53049aca8964997b73466d5\u0022\u003EReal Estate Agents Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227788a1ea48184233952f3d4724647404\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000828\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c897681b306245519828849236ca5803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c897681b306245519828849236ca5803\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014[Interruption] I do not think I need a lecture on being awake from the member for Rongotai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b2b4ebaabe4b75bfc58cda68e3e993\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t talking to the member. I was talking to his whip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e465aa3496994370a624856af2ba0733\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am talking to that honourable member. I have spent a lot of\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223791a6caeef24ed0b1c0d008358d8d11\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Please, members. It has been a long day. It has been a long night. Everyone is tired. I now call the honourable member Christopher Finlayson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253205b4096649ed811c172632175f1c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am certainly not tired. I am anxious to get involved in the third reading speech. Unfortunately, the justice team in the Labour Party, headed by the member for Rongotai, really have not the faintest idea about basic principles of industry regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ENow, let me tell the honourable member a couple of things that National believes. We believe that the Real Estate Agents Act 1976 is overdue for reform, but we oppose this legislation, and our reasons have been very carefully set out, first by Kate Wilkinson, then by Simon Power. Reform of this area is overdue. The 1976 Act has outlived its usefulness. That was a point made time and time again to the Justice and Electoral Committee by members of the real estate industry. For the Labour Party to stand up in this House and grossly misrepresent the position of the National Party and its principled opposition, frankly, makes me sick. We accept there is a need for reform, but the devil is always in the detail and in the way one goes about the reform. The way one goes about reforming a major area like this is not to romp around the country like some third-rate Rambo\u2014which is all the member for Waimakariri is\u2014but rather to concentrate on the reform, master the detail, and listen to what people are saying. My advice to Mr Cosgrove would be to adopt a \u201CHey, we\u2019re all in this together.\u201D kind of approach\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f85172dec343e0bba8f2fed37b6992\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be so nasty!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca43bc15c66f4653a729ce7404848425\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member says I am nasty. I am simply giving the member a few lessons. If she wants lessons on nastiness, she should hear some of the comments that have been made in this House today by her colleagues. A ritual recitation of that kind of rubbish does her no credit at all and, even though she is getting on in years, it is time she grew up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut let me deal with the detail of this legislation, instead of responding to the third-rate ravings of the member for Rongotai. It is a gross misrepresentation of the position to say that the National Party is opposed to reform. We are very much in favour of reform, but certain key matters were not addressed and they have remained matters of concern to the National Party throughout. Ours has been a principled opposition. As Mr Power said, they were the points that were raised in the first reading. They were dealt with in the second reading. They were dealt with by National members in the course of the select committee hearings, when a number of us played a full and active role, and they have been made again in the third reading. Now, let us recite those concerns one more time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe primary concern I had was that property management is not contained in the Real Estate Agents Bill. Most submissions the select committee received emphasised the need for that particular form of real estate activity work to be included in the bill. As we said in our minority report, property management is often an integral part of real estate work and, if the real objective of this bill is consumer protection, then it must be in there. We are not satisfied when the Associate Minister of Justice Clayton Cosgrove says: \u201COh, well, I will look at it, and maybe over the next few years we should be able to do something.\u201D That is unacceptable. It was unacceptable when the bill was introduced and it is unacceptable now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next point was our concern about the uncertainty created by the 5-year review of the employment status of real estate agents. Again, we made the point that this was a sword of Damocles hanging over the real estate agents that was not justified. We said that if one was to have a review of clause 49, which related to the employment status of a salesperson, then that could be done but it should be done by the Department of Labour. What we find is that the principled points in opposition to this clause, which have been picked up by New Zealand First and possibly also by the Green Party, have been noted by the Government because clause 50 will not be part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next point we made was a very serious one about the inadequacy of the transitional provisions. We said that 12 months was not enough, and I am, of course, referring to clause 2, which deals with the commencement provisions. The amount of work that has to be undertaken to get this legislation shipshape before it comes into force requires a period of more than 12 months. The Associate Minister has come back and listened\u2014kind of\u2014and said that 14 months will do. We said that he should look at the lawyers and conveyancers legislation, which had a period of 24 months. I can assure the House that every one of those months was required by the Law Society, the Ministry of Justice, the Bar Association, and others to deal with the preparatory work to get the legislation knocked into shape, and now it is in force as from 1 August 2008. But when one looks at the magnitude of the change here, with the creation of the authority\u2014the creation of the complaints body set out in Part 4\u2014one sees that an enormous amount of work is required to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn particular we note that sections 14 to 28 come into force on the day after the date on which the legislation receives the Royal assent. What does that mean in practical terms? It means that the authority immediately comes into force. The registrar will shortly have to follow, because one of the first tasks of the authority will be to appoint the registrar who, when one looks at Part 3, has such a fundamental role in terms of licensing. Almost immediately there will be a need to appoint authority members. Everyone knows that there will be seven of them, and they will include a lawyer of not less than 7 years\u2019 experience. It is good that there is a Supplementary Order Paper in the name of the Associate Minister that says that there should be consultation with the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand before those appointments. A large amount of work is required to be done once the authority has been established and the members are appointed, if this legislation is going to be ready in 14 months. I can tell the House now that 14 months is not enough time and a lengthier transitional period will be required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next principled point of opposition we have raised from day one is the issue of auctions. I am pleased to see that the Associate Minister has listened to those objections. Extensive submissions were made on this matter at the Justice and Electoral Committee, as a result of which clauses 136 to 141 will be deleted. That is good because they are modelled, as I said in the Committee stage, on sections that come from the Property, Stock and Business Agents Act 2002, which is a New South Wales Act. They dealt with a particular situation in New South Wales at a particular time, and we heard that at the select committee. They do not serve any useful purpose in New Zealand. The next point we raised was that this bill is unnecessarily bureaucratic. We have referred to the creation of the authority and the problems associated with Part 4, which deals with disciplinary matters. So that remains an issue; it has been an issue from day one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFinally, there is the issue of the amount of experience required for real estate agents. I thought that Mr Dunne\u2019s proposals in relation to clause 34 were sensible. They are changes that were designed to ensure that those who enter the real estate profession are fit and proper persons because that is in the interests of the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo these were changes. There were not many that required change. Some have been deleted and we are pleased about that, but there remain some sticking points, and thus there will be continued opposition to this legislation. But what I really find unnecessarily hyperbolic is the suggestion that the National Party is opposed to reform, and is opposed to the repeal of the 1976 Act. That is a load of garbage. We are in favour of reform but it has to be proper reform, and in four respects this bill is still lacking. That is why we are going to oppose the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291a147b10cc848d2b17595b4bc0e48e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the Real Estate Agents Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221aef093035a84a35ba1b0c12bc1d9f28\u0022\u003EAffordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c95ae488a17c4295815c40bfd5d95356\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022563e0ef255dd44e78e84c0ba2468ef05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022563e0ef255dd44e78e84c0ba2468ef05\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Defence)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Housing: I move, That the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill be now read a second time. In doing so, I would like to thank the chair of the Local Government and Environment Committee, Moana Mackey, and members of the committee for their hard work on this bill. I would also like to thank all of those who made submissions on the bill. The committee considered 78 submissions on the original bill, and the considerable thought and effort put in by the submitters and the committee have helped to improve the bill. The majority of the committee recommended that the bill be passed with some amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis bill provides new powers to enable territorial authorities to increase the supply of affordable housing in their area. The bill fits in with other work that the Government has undertaken to improve housing affordability in New Zealand. The way that territorial authorities use the powers in the bill will vary across the country, depending on local affordable housing needs. International and New Zealand experience shows that the new tools will be effective in helping territorial authorities to achieve a range of goals, such as housing essential workers on modest incomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill is enabling, rather than mandatory. Only those territorial authorities that want to, need to develop an affordable housing policy. The bill requires a territorial authority to carry out a housing needs assessment, so that it has a clear picture of housing needs in the area, before using the powers provided in the bill. Based on that assessment, a territorial authority can develop an affordable housing policy that sets out how it will respond to local housing needs. Territorial authorities must consult their community before adopting any housing policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill will prevent the use of covenants on land or property titles where one of a covenant\u2019s purposes is to stop the provision of social or affordable housing. Such covenants unfairly discriminate against some of our most vulnerable people. There was unanimous support for that clause by the select committee, which recommended a slight change that will strengthen it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAs the bill\u2019s policy objective is to provide a workable tool for those territorial authorities that elect to develop affordable housing policies, the select committee has endeavoured to ensure that the concerns of local government are reflected in the suggested amendments to the bill. For example, the select committee has simplified the requirements of the bill by removing clauses that duplicate provisions of the Local Government Act, and also by replacing six separate clauses with one simple clause regarding the process for developing and implementing affordable housing policies. The bill has also been amended to be more closely aligned with the Local Government Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThose territorial authorities that would like further guidance on, and assistance in, using the powers that will be available under this legislation following its enactment can contact Housing New Zealand Corporation, which will arrange for them to receive appropriate advice and information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis bill balances the need of the community for affordable housing with developers\u2019 needs for consistent and predictable planning guidelines and with the property rights of individuals. The bill promotes housing choice by ensuring that a range of housing types, tenures, and costs to meet the needs of moderate-income households are being included in new developments. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022045cccb8a9d347f082958c8ba1eca066\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022045cccb8a9d347f082958c8ba1eca066\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party has been under tremendous pressure to vote against this legislation. The pressure has come from builders, district councils across the country, developers across the country, and community organisations involved in housing affordability issues and the provision of affordable housing to first-home buyers and even to those renting. This legislation, on the face of it, seemed like a good idea 6 or 7 months ago, but when questions were asked about the detail, it appeared that the legislation would drive property prices for first-home buyers even higher than they are today. It seemed the legislation would not help first-home buyers in the long run, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational Party members were very, very concerned, particularly when local authorities, mainly smaller local authorities across the country, told us they are already struggling with their statutory responsibilities. The legislation that has been pouring out of central government in recent years has meant that local authorities have had to go to their ratepayers, cap in hand, year after year, to ask for additional rates in order to deal with the growth in their own bureaucracies. Costs have been imposed on them because of the extra legislation coming out of this place. Local authorities have told us they do not want more legislation that will oblige them to spend ratepayers\u2019 money. They have said that the resources they would need to undertake, for example, a housing needs assessment are too much in addition to what they already have to do. They have said also there is no proven gain for their local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis legislation puts another layer of expectation upon councils, in their view. It is another expectation that communities will have of them, and it is another responsibility that central government has imposed upon them, and they do not need more compliance costs. That is what local authorities had to say at the Local Government and Environment Committee, and certainly that is what they said to the media. In fact, very few local authorities were happy about this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EInterestingly we know that the genesis of this legislation came from activities undertaken by the Queenstown Lakes District Council. It has an affordable housing programme whereby developers and builders, when undertaking a development, set aside some of that land and it goes into a land portfolio to be used for affordable housing initiatives. The reason they need that down there, of course, is that the cost of housing and renting is so high for people on average incomes, or those we expect would normally be able to afford housing\u2014people such as nurses, policemen, teachers, and those in the hospitality industry, which the Queenstown lakes district relies on so much. At the select committee we asked how, without legislation, the Queenstown Lakes District Council was able to set up a programme whereby developers set aside an amount of their land to go into such a pool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe asked how it was able to do that without legislation, because it begs the question of why we need this legislation. Why do we need to legislate to ensure that councils go through these responsibilities, and go cap in hand to the ratepayers to pay for these additional compliance costs, when the Queenstown Lakes District Council is doing this activity already? The answer from that district council is that it would have preferred to have more clarity, and that it was difficult at times to work through its processes, but it did it without this legislation\u2014and other councils could, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that Maryan Street, the Minister in charge of the bill, said that the bill would drive down costs for first-home buyers. But what this legislation does is force builders and developers to set aside a portion of their land and give it to trusts for affordable housing. So they might have to carve off 10 percent of their land and not sell it but, essentially, give it to an affordable housing trust. Instead of giving land, they could write out a big cheque and put it into the trust, and that could be used for affordable housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThat sounds great on the face of it, and it certainly sounds great for that trust, but the problem is that builders and developers then have to somehow make up that loss. They make up that loss by selling the sections they retain at a higher price because, quite frankly, they have mortgages to pay too. When builders and developers buy land they have to pay interest, they have to pay rates, and they have to pay for the development of that land, and if we take away a portion of that land\u2014particularly if it is as high a value as 10 percent\u2014then, clearly, they have to get those gains from elsewhere. So on the 90 percent of land they retain, they have to make greater profits in order to cover those costs. So the cost for the sections in the other 90 percent goes up, and the cost of housing overall will go up. Again, we have a problem there. That is why builders and developers oppose this legislation, and we can understand why that is the case. So there we have it. Local authorities are objecting to this legislation, builders and developers are objecting to it, and many of those involved in community housing objected to it at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMembers of the select committee were also very interested in another matter raised in this bill. It is certainly associated with housing but not necessarily with the issue of first-home buyers. It is the intention in the legislation to void covenants that restrict the provision of affordable public or institutional housing within a residential development. That was intended to address problems such as we see in Auckland, and Housing New Zealand Corporation gave us examples of where developers have put covenants over their developments saying that social housing cannot be placed within that area. For example, Housing New Zealand Corporation homes, or houses provided by other social housing providers, cannot be in those particular developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe could understand why there was an intention in the legislation to do that. We note, however, that exceptionally large-scale or high-density social housing developments do need local community support in order to succeed. So if we have a development where there are, say, a hundred or a couple of hundred houses, then surely we would want some sort of community consultation where half of them\u2014say, fifty or a hundred\u2014are Housing New Zealand Corporation houses. It is not a minor thing. It is a minor thing where we have two, three, or 10 State houses in a subdivision, and covenants surely should not be passed in those cases. But where there are hundreds of State houses in a particular development, that is a very significant step indeed, and we would want community buy-in and consultation in that case. So although we support the intention in the legislation to void covenants that restrict the provision of affordable housing, or public or institutional housing, we note that exceptionally large-scale or high-density social housing developments require community support and buy-in in order to succeed, and we make that note here in our speeches tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis legislation does not address the real cost-drivers of housing supply. Meeting residential land needs, making sure that enough land zoned is for residential housing, beating back over-regulation\u2014particularly where it comes from the Resource Management Act and the Building Act\u2014and streamlining the planning and consent processes are key issues that need to be addressed. It must also be remembered that take-home pay pays the mortgage, and the higher taxes that we have seen year on year under this Government do not help the value of take-home pay. People are getting less in their back pocket to service a mortgage. It is take-home pay that counts, and only lower taxes will improve the situation and put more money in the back pockets of those who want to pay off their mortgages. Of course, interest rates also need to be brought under control, and there is no way that that will happen when we continue to see the low-quality spending that this Government has put into various services across the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022 data-id=\u002284d35783124b4e3ea2b1dd72b4597cca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284d35783124b4e3ea2b1dd72b4597cca\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it does not surprise me at all that the previous speaker from the National Party, Phil Heatley, opposes so vehemently the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. It does not surprise me at all when one considers that any bill with the words \u201Caffordable housing\u201D in its title would seem to be anathema to the National Party. It does not surprise me at all to see that the National Party would be opposing a bill that seeks to create more choice and opportunity for families by giving councils some flexibility to promote a wider variety of house sizes, ownership models, and costs in the new home market. Why does it not surprise me that National, which brought in market rentals for State houses, sold 13,000 State houses, and devastated the housing market, should come into this House and oppose this very good affordable housing bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EIt does not surprise me that those members are back to their old tricks of the 1990s once more. What those members do not like is the fact that this bill provides new powers to enable territorial authorities to increase the supply of affordable housing in their local areas, and to do the sorts of good things that the Queenstown Lakes District Council has struggled to do. That is another very good thing that territorial authorities will be able to do under this bill, and they will be able to take an easier path to do it. The fact is that this bill enables other territorial authorities\u2014without the same problems and in consultation with their community\u2014to require persons doing developments to facilitate the provision of affordable housing to low and moderate income households in a way that encourages that range of housing sizes, tenures, and costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe bill fits with other work that the Government has undertaken to improve housing affordability in New Zealand, and that is why the National Party finds it anathema. Those members do not like the idea that this Government has had successes in that area. When we consider the other initiatives that are under way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ab1b2053a34d74a5e0f1c17ea2ed1d\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Such as? Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb2a5281383419683d5b391ad5570c6\u0022\u003ELESLEY SOPER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014such things as the very good and popular shared-equity scheme, the work done to start large-scale housing developments that help boost the numbers of affordable housing available, and the improvement in the quality standards of houses, among other things\u2014we can see that that is why National members find it anathema. They just cannot bear the idea that this is a good Government that cares about affordable housing. The Government sees it as being fundamental to the health and well-being of families and communities that there is decent, affordable housing. It actually regards it as a basic human right. And that is what those carping speakers on the other side just do not seem to be able to grasp\u2014that this bill is actually popular and required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this bill balances the needs of the community for affordable housing with developers\u2019 needs for consistent and predictable planning guidelines, and with the property rights of individuals\u2014balance between developers and communities. The National Party cannot take it, because that party seems to not want to admit that Labour can actually come up with good, balanced legislation that, once again, delivers to ordinary people. That is what National members do not like\u2014that this party has delivered and keeps on delivering in housing, health, education, and in a range of social issues. That party has never delivered in any of those areas in any of its previous administrations, and will have no chance to try to even think about delivering in the future, because the people of New Zealand know that if they want good social provision, whether it is in housing or in any other area, the party they need to have leading the Government is the Labour Party. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00224d558e22d02f4a0783571187e82b05b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d558e22d02f4a0783571187e82b05b7\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that it shows how much the Government really believes in this legislation when it gets the Minister who has let the Defence Force run down to an absolute shambles, and who allows prisoners out of prisons every day, to come down to read a speech on it for about 2 minutes, because he would not have a blind clue about this bill. The member Phil Goff would not have one iota of understanding. To make it even worse, the Government puts up a lightweight member called Lesley Soper, whom they brought into the House and who was then kicked out because she could not get high enough up on the list. The Government has brought her back and she will be kicked out again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d917683205664ba2968fb7e6e0cfed96\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a395338d956c4407836d7bca09ad3023\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a day of sadness and shame in this country that we are addressing this sort of legislation in the depths of yesterday, if we look at today\u2019s date on the calendar on the wall. It is a shame because we have a member called Winston Peters, who has purportedly stood for standards, and who has been caught out having to try to explain again. He has also brought into disrepute not Helen Clark, because she does not matter, but the position of Prime Minister. The Prime Minister also now has to explain, and that is a shame. Then the third thing we need to be concerned about is that we are here in urgency discussing this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI feel really sorry for the likes of Pita Paraone, who is a very honourable person. I have great respect for that member. Unfortunately, he is caught up in the trap of the Winston saga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EHere we are tonight, debating a third bill. We had the Biofuel Bill, which the Government did not really support, and then we have just gone through the Real Estate Agents Bill, which was all about politics. And now here we are with a bill that is actually meaningless. The unfortunate thing about this legislation is that we are passing a bill that will have no impact other than to put more compliance costs into New Zealand and on to local government, and it will not reduce by one diddly-squat the cost of housing to those who need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me just explain why that is. The reason is that the Minister of Housing, Maryan Street, heard about what was happening in Queenstown. She thought that she would go down and look at what they are doing down in Queenstown because it actually works. What happened was that the council had got together with developers\u2014those nasty people who actually make money\u2014and said that it had a problem. The problem was that people who came to that town needed to be able to afford to live there, and at that moment they could not. The council suggested that they all get together and give those people an opportunity to be able to afford a home. It suggested that where there was a subdivision and the developers were developing some housing, the developers should set aside some funding that would allow those people to get a house that was cheaper than the average home that one might expect to buy in Queenstown. So that is what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe developers said that it was a good idea. They needed workers. They needed people to come down and help with the surveying, they needed people to come down and help build houses. They needed people who are dentists, they needed people who are doctors, they needed people who are waitresses, and they wanted to attract those people to that town. And, of course, they wanted the well-to-do people to retire there, and they wanted to set a standard for them, as well. They said that they should get together with the council and allow that to happen, and that is exactly what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe Queenstown Lakes District Council and the developers\u2014those horrible commercial people\u2014all got together and said: \u201COK, here is a good idea. We will make this happen.\u201D Maryan Street heard about this, so she whistled down there and said: \u201CBy gosh! What a good idea. Why do we not pick this up?\u201D. So the Government forgot what the Queenstown Lakes District Council is doing, and it brought in this silly bill that says to local authorities in New Zealand that they must provide affordable housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBut what does it mean? Well, actually, when one reads the bill, it means nothing. It means absolutely nothing. All that it says to local authorities is that they shall try to do this. The fact is that every local authority in New Zealand opposes this bill, with the exception of none, because they know it will have no impact. I tell members opposite to go and talk to the mayor of the Queenstown Lakes District Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222296e9f04e8448429b3fffe6e279008e\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: He worked with the Government on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f91fcc085664b9b85bdfc82b5ab71e4\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course he did; he worked to try to make this bill work. If the member will go and talk to him now, he will tell her that it is a joke and that this bill will not work. I tell the member to go and ask him, because I did. I asked him what he thought about this bill and whether it will work. He said that it was a joke and it will not work, that it does not do anything that his council is not doing, and that it is providing opportunities for people on lower incomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOf course, the sad fact is that the Government has got it wrong. What this Government will not understand is that part of the reason why we struggle in this country to provide affordable housing for low-income people is the compliance costs this Government has imposed on local government bodies, which they have to pass on. Let me just talk about that for a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986da791c661429bba04a96890000a2b\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: Have you read the bill, by any chance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022329e5b98026a408592f9d054cafe66c9\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can interject as much as she likes, but the fact is that the way the Resource Management Act works under this Government\u2014it has to be implemented by local authorities\u2014means that every section subdivided in this country costs $50,000 in compliance costs before one even gets started. Right now, if one gets a building permit with the Department of Building and Housing, which is administered by Shane Jones, on top of the $50,000 on average that one pays in compliance costs for a section, one now has to pay another $25,000 per home, on average, in compliance costs for building, and it is nuts. So before one gets a section and house started, one has to fork out $75,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second point that has caused a problem, and that this Government just will not believe in, is not only does it cost $75,000 but also people have an expectation that they will have a house valued above what they are able to afford. The fact is that in Northland right now we are starting to design and develop homes\u2014just the house, not the section; I will be very clear\u2014working with the likes of Juken Nissho, where we will have a modest, three-bedroom home that is watertight and comfortable, and has all the facilities, for the cost of about $110,000. We should be starting to provide that sort of thing on top of the cost of a section, which is maybe $70,000. So one might have a modest three-bedroom home for a first house costing somewhere between $180,000 and $200,000, and who would argue with doing that? It is a good start for a young couple, who maybe have a child on the way or who are just starting out. They can get into a home as a way to step forward. That is what we should be aiming for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI really regret the fact that some of the other parties will support this bill, because it will not achieve what they seriously want to achieve. I acknowledge that they want to achieve opportunities for young people. This bill will not do it. But the work National is doing in Northland and the work it will do around reducing compliance costs, if it is fortunate enough to become the Government, will certainly make sure that young people are given the opportunity to get into homes at an affordable level. It is those things that are important, not making more rules and regulations and putting more cost on to local government and the ratepayers, but allowing young people the opportunity to start at a price they can afford, somewhere in the vicinity of $180,000 to $200,000, without their having to meet the $75,000 of compliance costs this Government is imposing on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI for one say that if I had the choice between supporting a Government that says I have to write out a cheque for $75,000 before I even start or a party that is saying it will give me the opportunity to get into a first-time home, modest though it may be, which is a good start and is warm, comfortable, safe, and secure, for approximately $200,000 without needing rules and regulations\u2014[Interruption] I just wish Lesley Soper would for once open her ears, but she cannot because she is worried about the fact that she will not be here soon. I wish she would understand what I am saying, which is that National is interested in getting young people into homes. I know that the likes of Pita Paraone also support that objective. This bill will not do it. But I do say there is an opportunity for us to make sure that we can, and if we are given the opportunity, then we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00229f0ba0200ccf40bcb9ffee95319d5510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f0ba0200ccf40bcb9ffee95319d5510\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to say that we will support this bill. I start by saying that New Zealand First has always been of the mind that all New Zealanders should have access to affordable homes. Owning one\u2019s home has always been part of the Kiwi dream, and we would like that to remain so. Unfortunately, the dream has become a nightmare for many people who have come to realise that access to affordable housing, which earlier generations of New Zealanders enjoyed, is no longer available to them. The fact that we here in New Zealand are at the end of the global economic food chain, so to speak, has seen the downturn in other economies impact on our own. The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research recently reported in its last quarterly prediction that gross domestic product was likely to decline for three consecutive quarters. It went on to say that inflation is still a problem and would therefore impact on a return to robust economic health. Having said that, I believe it is still the Government\u2019s responsibility, irrespective of who might be occupying the Treasury benches, to ensure that this country\u2019s citizens are suitably housed and that incentives are provided to do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First believe that this bill will provide that incentive, which I regard as being a beginning. House prices have left a large number of people on modest incomes unable to compete in the current housing market. The bill is intended to help provide additional supply-side tools for local government in order to complement the housing supply-and-demand measures that central government already provides. As the Minister who opened the debate this evening said, costs vary amongst the territorial authorities around the country, and therefore the cost of housing will also vary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI heard reference made to Queenstown and the belief that this bill will not solve the problem that Queenstown is possibly facing. However, the responsibility does fall on that local authority to ensure that in order to maintain its position as one of the leading tourist centres in the country, it must look after its service workers. If it wants to attract service workers to the region and wants them to stay there to be able to cater for the demands that tourism brings to the area, then it will certainly have to have a plan that will provide affordable housing for those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First recognises that this bill is a stand-alone bill that dovetails with other legislation. The bill\u2019s purpose is to enable territorial authorities, in consultation with their communities, to require developers to facilitate the provision of affordable housing. We have heard comments this evening that developers are opposing the notion of this bill. I say that given the economic climate at the moment, I have heard of developers actually approaching the Government to see whether the Government will purchase sections from them to provide State housing. I think that that is the consequence of being at the end of the economic food chain, which I alluded to earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI do not want to take too much time other than to say that this bill is just one of the many tools that will be available to provide affordable housing to our citizens, and I reiterate our support for this bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022edd6fc589e19482386f781c005f02903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edd6fc589e19482386f781c005f02903\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill through its second reading and remaining stages in the House today. I have to say, however, that ours is somewhat lukewarm support. Although we are keen to see local councils encouraged to support the development of affordable housing within their districts and to end the use of covenants designed to restrict the availability of affordable housing within developments, we believe that this bill is a missed opportunity in terms of doing something a lot more meaningful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe have a housing crisis in this country right now. Just a couple of weeks ago I took part in a hui on housing in Northland at which representatives of numerous iwi and community organisations talked about the realities of increasing numbers of forced mortgagee sales, sometimes because of ridiculously low actual arrears. They talked of private rentals being too high for people to afford, even in traditionally low-cost areas like Kait\u0101ia and Kaikohe, and of people living under canvas and in sheds, caravans, and other insecure and inadequate forms of shelter because those were their only options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis morning the New Zealand Herald carried the story of Auckland City councillor Paul Goldsmith, who is asking Parliament to widen police powers to allow them to forcibly move rough sleepers along. At the same time, Diane Robertson, from the Auckland City Mission, talked about the problem in a rather more productive way, saying that the real answer is to give people somewhere adequate and appropriate to live. Both responses highlight the problems of people sleeping out in Auckland City. It is not a new issue, but it is one that does not look like going away any time soon, unless there is a concerted response from the Government, local government, and the community sector to ensure that the housing needs of those most in need are met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ECouncillor Goldsmith\u2019s \u201Cblame the victim\u201D response is as old as time. It is reminiscent of Beijing\u2019s recent clearance of its streets and slums for the Olympics or, closer to home, of the bid to remove the homeless from the streets, parks, and open spaces of Auckland when APEC came to town in 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe need for safe, secure, healthy, and affordable housing starts at this extreme end, with those who are literally homeless and out on the streets right now\u2014and there are many more of them in Aotearoa in 2008 than some might imagine\u2014and it goes through to those who are among the 9,000 or 10,000 households on the State house waiting lists, to those who are living in substandard or inadequate housing but cannot get on the waiting lists at all, and to those who are working as hard as they can but are failing to get together the money to buy a home. The inability of so many to afford or to access accommodation, either rented or bought, is a reality that this and the next Government must face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis bill takes a very small step towards at least enabling local territorial authorities to implement and enforce affordable housing policies in new developments, where they have the will to do so. It was interesting to see that so many local government submitters had doubts about the bill, although I have to say that a lot of these seemed to be driven more by fears of the costs of taking up affordable housing plans rather than by any analysis of the bill\u2019s inadequacies in terms of meeting real housing needs. In the Auckland region, for example, five out of six councils opposed the bill, with only the Waitakere City Council supporting it while taking the position that the bill should go further and make affordable housing compulsory for all districts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOther organisations found the bill inadequate, too. For example, the Salvation Army opposed the bill, despite its unquestionable interest in, and commitment to, affordable housing. It submitted that it saw the bill as lacking in terms of containing any particularly meaningful response to the crisis it deals with daily through its social services arms. Like the Waitakere City Council, the Salvation Army sought, among other things, a requirement that local authorities must give consideration to local housing affordability issues in their planning and policy development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party came very close to opposing the bill as well, but in the end we decided that we would continue to support it, partly because of some small improvements achieved at the Local Government and Environment Committee, and partly because anything that supports and encourages councils to at least consider the development of affordable housing has to be better than nothing. We also see the clause on covenants, with the improvement made at the select committee, as being critical. Clause 35(1) now states: \u201CA covenant over land is void if one of its purposes is to stop the provision of affordable housing or social housing on the land.\u201D We are keen to ensure that this becomes law as soon as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, what we would really like to see soon is a major commitment from the Government to real solutions. The Greens, like the Waitakere City Council and the Salvation Army, would like to see all local councils adopt housing affordability policies, along with a greater commitment to land banking and to the retention of any social housing that they already own. We would like the Housing New Zealand Corporation, local councils, and the community sector to work together to increase the social housing stock available in areas of need that is provided through all three sectors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe private market is not able to meet the housing needs of everyone in this country, as is all too apparent at present. We believe that both central government and local government have a responsibility to take a lead on these issues. Central government funding should be available to assist local councils to carry out effective planning and to meet social housing needs, but this funding should not be available unless they have developed an affordable housing plan in genuine consultation with their local community. I hope that the next time we are discussing an affordable housing bill in this Parliament, it will be a lot more serious than the one in front of us today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022352bb48f341149ecbae48678cfd4121a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022352bb48f341149ecbae48678cfd4121a\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E Ten years ago the H\u012Bkoi of Hope called on the Government and the community to urgently improve housing for low-income New Zealanders. The Government was advised that if we really want to be seen as a socially just nation, we must recognise the link between housing and poverty and act appropriately on the issues in that sector. A decade later, does this bill, the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill do it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ERight on cue, the social report was released last week, and it provided the context with which to understand the importance of secure, stable, and safe housing. It is not a good-news story. It is a story of haves and have-nots\u2014those who can afford to live well and those who cannot. There is, of course, the fact that some 15 percent of householders own an investment property, and such properties include holiday homes, rental properties, timeshares, and overseas properties. And then there are the others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESince the late 1980s the proportion of New Zealand householders spending more than 30 percent of their income on housing has literally hit the roof, shooting up from 11 percent in 1988 to a massive 26 percent in 2007. For M\u0101ori households the decline in disposable income has become even more severe. The proportions of M\u0101ori spending over a third of their disposable income on housing had risen to 29 percent in 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAffordable housing is a cornerstone of any programme to reduce poverty. Affordable housing is essential to well-being. Without housing stability learning is hindered, and opportunities for social and economic participation are seriously compromised. There is a lot at stake, then, in thinking about the range of mechanisms available to ensure that people on low to moderate incomes are able to access affordable housing. And so we were introduced, in the range of submissions and effort put forward, into defining exactly what we meant by affordable housing, including the specific suggestions of \u201Cincome-to-housing\u201D cost ratios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis, of course, has long been the view that we know of with regard to the concept of poverty. New Zealand does not have an official poverty line. The arguments have been put forward by Statistics New Zealand\u2014that it is too hard to set the level, too hard to take account of geographical variation in living costs, too hard to handle short-term periods of low income, and too hard to adjust the measure over time. So with no poverty line, how do we really know the extent of the poverty gripping our communities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe same will now apply to affordable housing. It is kept deliberately broad to enable territorial authorities to develop their own definitions to suit their own housing markets. It is this deliberate flexibility that we in the M\u0101ori Party have some qualms about. A little flexibility can be a dangerous thing. The context of this bill, in enabling territorial authorities to address problems of housing affordability in their districts, is one that essentially rests on the quality of relationships with mana whenua\u2014wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. Of course, we know that when iwi are perceived as investors, the relationships with territorial authorities are suddenly conducted with great haste and respect for all parties involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe were interested that the report of the Local Government and Environment Committee considered the possibility of amendments to the Resource Management Act for affordable housing. The M\u0101ori Party supports amendment of the Resource Management Act 1991 and the Local Government Act 2002 to strengthen the recognition and decision-making authority of local hap\u016B and iwi in their region. We believe that that legislation needs amending to provide for appropriate representation of, and engagement with, mana whenua in decision making in their rohe. Such amendments would provide a more tangible way of spelling out the nature of the relationships sought with tangata whenua. The critical issue that concerns us is how mana whenua are involved in the design and discussions around affordable housing in their districts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBut other relationships are at risk in this bill, such as relationships with the so-called gated communities\u2014relationships between gated communities and those who seek to live in social housing. Sarah Walker has produced an interesting paper that describes the effects of gated communities and their regulation in New Zealand. In that paper she describes the fortified p\u0101 of tangata whenua as the earliest example of gated communities. Fortified p\u0101 provided a stronghold and a sense of security in the knowledge that there was somewhere safe to run to, to return to, in times of trouble. It also meant that in the luxury of being separated out from potentially hostile \u201Cothers\u201D, the community was a safe haven where people could be free to be M\u0101ori, to protect each other, to store their food and supplies, and to enjoy their cultural activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt is a fascinating context from which to consider the risks of simply importing another, different group within the midst of gated communities. Pepper-potting State houses in the midst of, say, a retirement village is bound to create conflict and uneasy tension unless due attention is paid to relationships. The impact of high-density social housing developments must be comprehensively and carefully negotiated with our local communities if we are to achieve buy-in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI want to return to the very basis of the need for social housing. If we continue to accept that market forces will determine price in the supply-and-demand world, then the poor will never ever be able to be safely and appropriately housed. The god of the market, at whose altar we kneel, will determine the sort of life we lead. But we must ask: is this right? Should this be so? High housing costs eat into the limited capacity of low-income households to meet basic needs such as food, clothing, transport, medical care, and education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe must ensure that the housing market is more efficient and fair. Direct assistance for low-income tenants enables a basic quality-of-living standard to be met. We know that community and social service agencies are seeing the real impact of increased accommodation costs on poverty. So we welcome the initiatives in retrofitting, the Housing Innovation Fund, and the developments the Minister has shared about renovating State houses and moving them on to land. I was pleased to learn about the efforts made in the Matah\u012B Valley for the people of T\u016Bhoe and the efforts made to ensure that a kuia in N\u016Bhaka was able to enjoy better health and housing at the wonderful age of 92. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBut we must look past isolated examples to really understand the grim reality for so many New Zealanders that makes servicing a mortgage simply out of the realms of possibility. The pressures on people are already too immense to create further stress on households by adding ever-increasing mortgage repayments on to their already stretched budgets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill, though we are greatly concerned that low and moderate income earners should be entitled to benefit from affordable housing\u2014but may not, as very few tangata whenua have an income, or two incomes, of up to $80,000. We are also very concerned to explore every possibility for innovation in expanding options for affordable housing. This is more than a matter of bricks and mortar; it is about quality relationships, quality locations, and quality decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00221049d4f8c25549d0a2213dd19518ed61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221049d4f8c25549d0a2213dd19518ed61\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of United Future to oppose, sadly, the second reading of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. United Future supported this bill going to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and we had very high hopes that the Government was making a real effort to address a genuine problem. United Future has gone on record historically as saying it wishes that this 2008 election was being fought around the issue of affordable housing\u2014that both National and Labour would be trying to outdo each other in putting forward to voters some really workable options to increase homeownership for middle and low income New Zealanders. So we are very disappointed to have reached a point where we can no longer support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI have to say that I am a little surprised that the M\u0101ori Party is supporting the bill. That party has gone on record on numerous occasions in this House in support of people\u2019s property rights. This bill has the ability to seriously breach the rights of property owners and put demands on them in a way that I think is inconsistent with the stands that party has taken on previous issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis bill provides, but does not demand, that territorial authorities, should they wish, can develop some affordable housing policy at a local level. It is really clear from the feedback from local government that some territorial authorities are already doing this. They are the ones that have been looking for a little bit of legislative support to continue what they are doing, and we acknowledge that. But a whole lot of territorial authorities are currently quite uninterested, and they are particularly uninterested in some of the options that are put before us in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIf a territorial authority chooses to consult, as it is required to do first of all, and to set up a scheme to offer affordable housing options, it is then able to put some quite strong demands on property developers, forcing them to make available some of their land for affordable housing. Territorial authorities have always had the option of providing incentives through lower compliance costs and a number of other mechanisms to incentivise those options, but what they would get out of this bill, if they so choose, is the ability to actually impose that type of provision on to a property owner and a property developer. We think that is a very sad option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI questioned the Minister and she kindly gave me a briefing, because I wanted to try to get my head around how this could play itself out at a local level. I asked the Minister whether the bill, in the way it has been written, could, for instance, stop a local council showing preferential treatment to one developer over another, making no demands on one property developer\u2014making no requirement that it set aside land for affordable housing\u2014but choosing to put requirements on another developer within its territorial authority. She admitted that, yes, it was quite possible under this legislation for preferential treatment to be given to developers within a territorial authority. So already we start to see some real flaws that could happen off the back of this bill, should it pass in its current form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAnother concern mentioned in the commentary on the bill as it has been reported back from the select committee is around the adequacy statement, because the regulatory impact assessment unit does not consider that this proposal meets the consultation requirements for regulatory impact analysis. Really, if there is any strength to this proposal, it is that the territorial authority, in setting up an affordable housing scheme, is required to do some consultation with its constituents. That is a good requirement, but some concern is expressed by the regulatory impact assessment unit that it does not believe the provisions as stated in the bill currently are sufficient to mean that the consultation process is done in a way that is helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI was interested to find out from the Minister why she had chosen to set up a separate bill rather than to amend the Resource Management Act and/or the Local Government Act 2002. Certainly, the commentary on the bill gives some reasons around that. Apparently, the Local Government Act 2002 could not be used in its present form to require developers to contribute towards affordable housing, and territorial authorities obviously wanted the flexibility and the choice as to whether they opted into these provisions in the legislation. So it will depend on where people live in New Zealand and on the priority set by their local authority as to whether this legislation will even have application and provide affordable housing options for them. A huge amount of choice is given to territorial authorities. However, once they decide to take advantage of the provisions of this bill, then I think a lot of problems could kick in, particularly for property developers, in a way that United Future feels breach the very principles that we as a party have based ourselves on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future is committed\u2014along with other parties in this House\u2014in seeing what can be done to improve affordable housing options in New Zealand. Right now in New Zealand we face a housing crisis. It is increasingly difficult for first home owners to get their proverbial foot on that first rung, and much more can be done. Most of us bought our first house with Government assistance. Short-term loans were given to kick-start our deposit. The family benefit could be capitalised. Historically, there have been a whole lot of helpful mechanisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future, for instance, would like to explore the option of capitalising Working for Families payments. A whole lot of things could have been considered by this Government, and we are very disappointed that it has limited itself to hitting property developers rather than putting forward a bill that could have included a whole lot of other really excellent options that we would have been able to support. We are sorry to have to pull our support at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2c78cfa956f46c48fb62091b1397765\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2c78cfa956f46c48fb62091b1397765\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am absolutely delighted to speak on behalf of National in opposing the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. This is another piece of very, very poor legislation. It follows on from a litany of poor legislation put through the House by this Government. It asked the first question: \u201CWhat\u2019s the problem we\u2019re trying to fix?\u201D, and, yes, there is a problem around affordable housing. But did it do any rigorous analysis about what the cause of that problem was? Of course it did not, because those members opposite are too jolly lazy as a Government to take even one look at the real causes relating to affordable housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e9176b5c91494db57340b08e4f4d32\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Let us consider one of the first problems faced, which is the resource consent process under the Resource Management Act. Did Government members even take a look at that process? Did they put any effort at all into looking at what it means for anybody wanting to build a subdivision and provide housing for our people? No, they did not. Did they even look at the Building Act? Well, yes, they did, and what did they do? They made it worse, because when they identify a problem they have absolutely no idea about the rigorous analysis needed to understand the causes of it. That happens time and time again, in every piece of legislation. This Government has passed a litany of legislation that is a burden on the people of New Zealand, and this is another example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhat a burden this legislation will be on the people of New Zealand. If Government members think this bill will do one single thing towards achieving affordable housing, they are seriously mistaken. We heard the previous speaker say that local authorities will need to have an affordable housing scheme. That is another step in the direction of a bloated bureaucracy; everything this Government does that has an effect on local authorities does nothing but add cost and bureaucracy to them. The local authorities have to find the wherewithal to fund the staff to do the investigation and analysis needed to put in place all of the rubbish\u2014this absolute garbage\u2014put upon them by the current Government. It all comes at a price that local councils have to pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EBut hold on, who funds the local councils? Well, it is the ratepayers who have to pay that price, and they are sick of it. Time and time again they are burdened with costs imposed by this Government, and this bill is another classic example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ELet us consider affordable housing schemes. For a start, local authorities have to draft a scheme. Do they get any funding from the Government for that? No. Once they have drafted a scheme\u2014and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on staff to do that\u2014they have to go out for public consultation. Hello, there is a few more hundred thousand dollars gone. As we heard from previous speakers, all sorts of community groups want to put their finger in the pie, because they all think they know how best to do things. They all want to put in their 10c worth. They drag the process out, just like they do when people put in resource consent applications. Everybody wants a finger in the pie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhy do members think that the cost of housing is so great? If they had listened to John Carter, they would have heard the answer: it costs at least $50,000 for a start. I know of a guy who requested resource consent for eight motel units. Before he even started, he was being asked for $150,000. That was before he even put a peg in the ground. Why would he bother? This bill will absolutely cripple any initiative that people take, or any enthusiasm they have, to enter into business or to create businesses in this country so they can improve their wealth, their take-home wages, and, as one of the previous speakers said, their ability to afford to pay for housing. There are costs and costs, one after another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOne council has become the first in the country to say that it will take 50 percent of the development contribution on the first building inspection. That is before the developer has even used any of the facilities being charged for. Then the developer will need to pay the rest of that development contribution before he or she can get a certificate of title at the time of the last building inspection. Give me a break! If this Government cannot understand the basic costs of building a house, then that is an absolute indictment on its representation of the people of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIf anybody is failing the people of New Zealand, it is the members of this Government, who do not properly understand the problem and are not addressing the compliance costs. They are doing nothing to reduce the cost to people wanting to build houses. They are doing nothing to reduce the costs to ratepayers. It is no wonder that housing is becoming unaffordable, even if one does own a home, because rates are going up at the rate of knots just to meet all the costs being imposed by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis Government keeps saying that it cares, but it puts through more bills because it wants to control things. It does not understand that people in the private sector can work together with public sector entities, such as local government, and make arrangements that suit them, without needing to get tied up in knots by legislation that just adds more costs. Does the Government not understand the simple idea of contracts and agreements? No, it does not. It cannot stand not being able to put its finger in the pie and interfere in the process. It cannot leave it alone. Queenstown did it, and what did Government members do? They wanted to capture it and make it theirs, so they ring-fenced it, put a whole lot of words around it, and turned it into an utter shambles. That is what this bill is\u2014an utter shambles. It is a disgrace. It just reinforces my already strongly held view that this Government is completely fiscally irresponsible. There is absolutely no way I would want any one of those people managing my household budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225491157992be44b380c28b7f3a388cea\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I have a bit of order please, the noise is getting too high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e9aef1a210419f9473216bec13f5df\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, gosh, let them go. For goodness\u2019 sake, let them go and send them out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely no way I would let any member of this Government manage my household budget. When we look at the way they are managing the taxpayers\u2019 budget, we are absolutely horrified. The number of bureaucrats has grown by 10,000 in the last 9 years\u2014do we want our money spent on more bureaucrats? This bill provides for more bureaucrats at the local government level just to deal with the sorts of rules and requirements that the Government is imposing through this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ELet us look at some of the submissions to the Local Government and Environment Committee. Business New Zealand said that any basic understanding of the economic principle\u2014[Interruption] The Government hates business. It is the businesses of New Zealand that give our people jobs so that they have the income to pay for their survival\u2014to buy food, pay rent, or buy houses. But Government members cannot stand that; they cannot stand the idea that somebody might make a bit of profit while providing income for others. That is a total anathema to them. We can tell by the immediate reaction we heard when I said \u201CBusiness New Zealand\u201D\u2014shock, horror! Well, hello, newsflash! We actually need businesses in this country so that people have employment. Do Government members not understand that equation? They just do not understand that we have to have business to provide employment. The two go hand in hand. If one does not have a job, one cannot afford to own a home. It is simple, but it is obviously lost on the current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESo what did Business New Zealand say in its submission? It said: \u201CAny basic understanding of the economic principle of supply and demand would acknowledge that artificially lowering prices leads to reduced supply and or increased costs for other householders, as developers seek to cover their costs and make a normal profit. This is borne out by overseas studies\u2026\u201D. Once again I say that this Government has let down the people of New Zealand. If we think that homes are unaffordable now, this bill will only make matters worse. This bill is an absolute indictment on the ability of this Government to do anything rational or that actually supports the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e87ed1a73ac54c91b3729aee6368f07a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill be read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002227a531ff26804542b5c44c9b1dd32187\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022256e5780c83f40cd8443461a4aa6592f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Meeting housing needs \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002275de52d03d8c4eefb6265ea3f44ba842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275de52d03d8c4eefb6265ea3f44ba842\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I will raise an interesting matter with the Committee of the whole House on Part 1\u2014that is, the interpretation or definitions of various terms used in the bill. The first one up is the most telling. It is the definition of \u201Caffordable housing\u201D, which means \u201Chousing that\u2014(a) is for persons living in households that\u2014(i) have low to moderate income; \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI found it particularly interesting some months ago when I asked the Minister of Housing, Maryan Street, in the debating chamber during question time whether the definition in this bill of \u201Caffordable housing\u201D with regard to people on a low to moderate income was the same definition she used in relation to the affordable housing being built in Hobsonville. Apparently, the housing being built in Hobsonville by the Government is called affordable housing. In fact, the Government is proposing that several hundred affordable houses be built in Hobsonville. The Minister told us at the Local Government and Environment Committee that those houses will be worth $350,000 to $370,000. People owning those houses will require an income of $75,000 per annum to service their mortgage, without paying back any capital cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn other words, the Minister of Housing\u2019s definition of someone who is a low to middle income earner is someone who can afford a $370,000 house and is on an income of over $70,000 a year, which is absolutely ludicrous. Low-income people do not earn $75,000. In fact, those on the average wage in New Zealand earn about $65,000, so one could say that low to middle income earners might earn anything up to $65,000, yet the Hobsonville houses, which are to be provided by this Government, will cost $370,000, and people will need to be on an income of $75,000 to be able to afford them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe have a Minister of Housing who is completely out of touch on two levels. The first level relates to what low to middle income earners earn\u2014and we need only go to Statistics New Zealand to discover that it is $65,000 a year, not $75,000 or above. The second level relates to what an affordable house is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI can tell the Minister of Housing, if she is listening, that $370,000 for a first home is very, very expensive indeed for a low to middle income earner in this country. That is a huge burden to undertake when it comes to a mortgage. So for the definition of \u201Caffordable housing\u201D in this bill to state that it is for persons living in households that have low to moderate incomes is an absolute nonsense. The Minister of Housing thinks that those people should be able to afford a $370,000 house that would require its owner to be on an income of $75,000 a year in order to service the mortgage, plus those people will want to eat and drive a car, as well. Of course, the Minister said at the time that there was actually no connection between the definitions. That might be all very well in legalese, but in reality, it does not help those who cannot buy their first home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThat is why we keep bringing this Minister of Housing back to two very important points. The first point is to acknowledge that the most significant thing we can do for first-home buyers is to give them more money in the back pocket to service a mortgage, because take-home pay pays the mortgage, not gross pay. The next best thing we can do is to get interest rates under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIf one has a mortgage of $200,000, which is not the average cost of a house but the average mortgage across the country, then one is looking at paying $2,000 a year to service the mortgage on that house, which is about $40 a week. An interest rate of 1 percent interest on an average mortgage equates to $40 a week, which is an awful lot of money in some households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e58335f23a43d3977092f1d1a14421\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, can I just give a word of warning to members. This is not a second or a third reading. We are talking about Part 1. The last member began to suggest solutions to provide affordable housing, which are not in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002298871956b7954632950596a059229c5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298871956b7954632950596a059229c5c\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the timely warning, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b361412dda8403eaed5333640dc6790\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Before I hear about your mother!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227490ce64a5684eac9aea3e61a3da93ce\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The gate is open but the stock is quiet! I want to specifically address Barbara Stewart, Keith Locke, and Te Ururoa Flavell\u2014and any of the Labour members who may care to listen\u2014and to talk about clause 6. I do so from the point of view of saying that although the intention of this bill is to provide more affordable housing to low-income people, if we look specifically at clause 6, we see that it fails. It fails because all that clause 6 does\u2014and the other clauses\u2014is say that local government bodies will find out whether there is affordable housing in their districts, provide a needs assessment, etc. What that means is that local government bodies will end up having to employ people to go through the steps of producing the reports required. They will probably come out with a report that says there is not enough affordable housing in their districts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat is the nub and the problem of this legislation. The sad fact is that this bill merely provides for local government bodies to write reports. It actually requires local government bodies to go out and make assessments. What it does not do\u2014and what I thought was the intent of the bill\u2014is ensure that we end up with more affordable housing. Nowhere in this bill, as members will see if they read it carefully, does it say that the end result of the local authorities\u2019 endeavours, of their assessments, will be that we have more affordable housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say to the representatives of those three parties here tonight that National members oppose this bill because it is back to front in addressing housing need. The sad and unfortunate fact in this country at the moment is that the expectation of the starting step for house ownership is too high. We would have done better to work with the building industry and with local authorities together to ensure that there are lower-level homes\u2014still of good quality, still secure, still safe, and still watertight\u2014at a lesser cost that people on lower incomes can afford. That is the dilemma we face in this country today. For most people, the price of a first home is out of their reach. Yet we have the ability in this country to provide lower-cost homes. I am not saying they are cheap homes; I am not suggesting that for a minute. What I am suggesting is lower-cost homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWhen the likes of Trevor Mallard and I were starting off in this country as young men, we had expectations of stepping into a home that was of a smaller size but still adequate for us to start our families. Unfortunately, today all of us have an expectation of being able to step into a more expansive home. Quite honestly, we need to change that attitude. We need to accept that a first home can be a small 3-bedroomed home that does not necessarily have all the bells and whistles, but is adequate. It can house our children\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb35cbe2fd374fc2977ada724726aee7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Some of them have two bedrooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e0ff284138449e93d65852f198c899\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe it has only two bedrooms. The point is that the home does not have to be a great big expansive palace. It can be a first-step house. It can be something we can turn into a home. It might have only two bedrooms, one for mum and dad, and one for the first child, maybe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1b0447bb8343879511ac324dc0eac9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I can remember when kids shared bedrooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caecf63c31bf491ea383fd2dafd43224\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course; we all did that. The point I am making is that our expectations are now above the level that we should reasonably expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say to the members of the smaller parties here, and, indeed, to the Government members, that we should have said we will work with local government and we will work with industry, and the whole focus will be on ensuring that we have an adequate supply of lower-priced homes of good standard that allow families in New Zealand to get a start. That is where this bill fails. In fact, it actually adds to the cost. I say to the Government and I say to this Parliament tonight that what disappoints me about the smaller parties, which I know genuinely want affordable housing\u2014as do we\u2014is that their supporting this bill in the manner in which it has been put forward will make it harder for young people to reach that first step. That is most unfortunate, and I say that genuinely. This is one of the times in this House when we really need to reflect on what we are doing. We are not achieving what we set out to do as a Parliament. This body has a responsibility to the people of this country, and tonight I say that, unfortunately, rather than achieve what we set out to achieve, which is a laudable goal, we will push it further out. I say to Parliament that it is sad and unfortunate that we are doing that this evening. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5f716dd405941de9f859d29995e335a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5f716dd405941de9f859d29995e335a\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I fully concur with my most eminent colleague John Carter. He is absolutely right. He has said the very things that needed to be said about the fact that this Government should have taken a step back and should have done the work necessary so that we would not find ourselves in this very unfortunate position in respect of considering the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. The first definition in clause 4 covers affordable housing, which \u201Cmeans housing that\u2014(a) is for persons living in households that\u2014(i) have low to moderate income; and (ii) have no, low, or moderate legal or beneficial interests in property; and (b) is priced so that the persons are able to meet\u2014(i) their housing costs; and (ii) their other essential basic living costs; and (c) is within the regulatory criteria for determining what affordable housing is, if regulations setting criteria exist\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI am blowed if I know what that means, and I am sure it is a lot of gobbledegook for most people. But when we look at moderate incomes, I am concerned. The average income of the majority of people in my electorate is around $26,000 a year. That is the average income for the Coromandel electorate. How could anybody afford to own his or her own home on that level of income? We talk about most people now earning around $60,000 a year, but, coming from the Coromandel, I find that very, very hard to believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EBusiness is incredibly important in the Coromandel because we need those businesses to provide jobs for the local people, and housing is certainly an issue. We have a very limited land resource and we need to use it to the very best of our ability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would like just to pick up on some of the points made by John Carter when talking about affordable housing. He referred to providing housing that can be affordable. If local government and central government are to work together, then they need to look at the cost of building a house. They need to look at the cost of purchasing the land in the first instance, the cost of building the house, and all of the constraints that start to come into play the moment someone takes a step into the council to begin the process. Firstly, there is the resource consent cost, and, secondly, there is the building consent cost. The bill has a definition of affordable housing; paragraph (c) of that definition states: \u201Cis within the regulatory criteria for determining what affordable housing is,\u201D. This Government has not done that. Obviously the expectation is that local authorities will do that, and it will place an incredible burden of cost on them because it is not an easy undertaking to start pulling all of that analysis together to determine what affordable housing is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn the first instance, councils are required to implement legislation passed by the Government, like the Resource Management Act and the Building Act. They have to do that, regardless of how poorly the legislation has been drafted and how it has not been changed to accommodate some movement in the cost of housing. Councils have to work with that. They do not seem to be able to control the costs incurred by people who want to build houses through that process. That is absolutely where it needs to start. When I talked before about a $150,000 development contribution, it was $150,000 after the costs of about $40,000 or $50,000 just for the resource consent and the building consent alone. We are looking at some councils charging up to $1,000 for building a carport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt is going out of control and is becoming a nonsense. The sooner some rationality is put into the process around how resource consents and building consents are dealt with, the sooner we might be able to have more affordable housing for people in New Zealand. I wish that some sort of sense could be made within the regulatory criteria, as defined in the bill. The purposes clause talks about enabling territorial authorities \u201Cin consultation with its community, to require persons doing developments \u2026\u201D. But it is done in consultation with its community. People who know anything about what it is like when someone starts to consult the community, will know this is just another one of those exercises that adds hundreds of thousands of dollars on to the cost of starting an affordable housing scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00222b1ecc0b62154c5eb3719d7c927ca75c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b1ecc0b62154c5eb3719d7c927ca75c\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to begin by speaking to clause 3A, which states: \u201CThis Act binds the Crown.\u201D I feel quite sorry for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, because this legislation is abysmal. It is on a par with the emissions trading scheme legislation. What I am getting at is that the Act binds the Crown, but this whole bill is concerned with territorial authorities. When the Minister speaks at some point, I will be very interested in his explanation as to why this Act binds the Crown, because clearly it does not. I feel very sorry for the Minister because this legislation is terrible. I do hope the Minister is reading Paul Quinn\u2019s column in the Hutt News, which, I see, he is engrossed in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ffec1a352bc44fb89e024dd571111ac\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7110614b42f4ba88ec40e38cea5bb01\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Paul Quinn. He is the fellow who is standing against the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d61b2293c9847aeb38779855e13099b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226065f7f521d24d20a2b3710a27f151e9\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EClause 4 states: \u201CIn this Act, unless the context requires another meaning\u201D\u2014brilliant\u2014\u201Caffordable housing means housing that\u2014(a) is for persons living in households that\u2014(i) have low to moderate income;\u201D. This would apply to most people in my electorate in the Wairarapa, who typically earn $12 to $20 an hour. But what is a moderate income in that context? Next, subparagraph (ii) states: \u201Chave no, low, or moderate legal or beneficial interests in property;\u201D. That does not stop someone with property held in a trust from being able to make him or herself eligible for affordable housing. Paragraph (b) of the definition goes on: \u201Cis priced so that the persons are able to meet\u2014(i) their housing costs;\u201D. Well, that is really wonderful legislation. Why do we need a rule for that? Then, paragraph (c) states: \u201Cis within the regulatory criteria for determining what affordable housing is, if regulations setting criteria exist\u201D. This is appalling drafting; it is appalling legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ELet us turn to clause 5, \u201CPurposes\u201D. It states: \u201CThe purposes of this Act are to\u2014(a) enable a territorial authority, in consultation with its community, to require persons doing developments to facilitate the provision of affordable housing\u2014\u201D. Why do we need legislation to do this? The bill goes on to state in clause 5(a)(i) that it is \u201Cfor the purpose of meeting a need for it that the authority has identified by doing a housing needs assessment:\u201D That is wonderful! Why do we need central government to waste its time, to waste the time of the Local Government and Environment Committee, and to waste the time of officials by asking them to come up with legislation that states a territorial authority can do a housing needs assessment. We do not need this legislation to do this; this is wasting the taxpayers\u2019 funds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThen the bill states, in clause 5(a)(ii), that facilitation of housing must be \u201Cin a manner that takes account of the desirability of the community having a variety of housing sizes, tenures, and costs:\u201D For heaven\u2019s sake! This is the real world; we do not need legislation that says that. Then clause 5(b) states that the purpose of the Act is to \u201Cvoid covenants that have, as one of their purposes, stopping the provision of affordable housing or social housing.\u201D For goodness\u2019 sake! Who drafted this stuff? This is meaningless arrant nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis is exactly the theatre that this Government has created around the emissions trading scheme. It is the theatre of appearing to be doing something for a community. But I say that this legislation will do nothing to deliver an affordable house to anybody in this country. It is unnecessary legislation. Clause 6(1) states: \u201CTerritorial authorities that want to find out whether there is enough affordable housing in their districts may do housing needs assessments.\u201D What brilliant law! Who was the wizard who thought of this legislation? It is absolute and utter rubbish, and the Government is charging taxpayers to produce this sort of nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a806925e5d0429da809f502f2709663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a806925e5d0429da809f502f2709663\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to rise to speak on Part 1 of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. I start my contribution this evening by saying I am a little puzzled at Madam Chair\u2019s directing my colleague John Carter\u2014I believe\u2014not to move beyond the scope of Part 1 into providing solutions. I think I have correctly picked up her direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260a218ee550941558a3d1931f6bac08b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is consideration in Committee. That can be done in the second or the third reading, but not in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254dc629454fd4285bb178aa0bd1488c6\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I understood, and I thought, and I do believe that this bill is about providing solutions to affordable housing, and it is in that context that I make my comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI want to make my contribution very local, and to put the Committee in the hands of a small local authority such as the Waimate District Council, the Mackenzie District Council, the Waitaki District Council, the Timaru District Council, or the Ashburton District Council, all councils in my region that may, or may not\u2014because this is an enabling bill\u2014decide to take a housing needs assessment on behalf of their community. How will that housing needs assessment be generated? It might be generated from a member of the community or a group within the community that feels very strongly about this matter\u2014and there are members of the community who feel very strongly that there is a need to provide community housing within a certain town or district.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThat is fine. A letter is written to the mayor and councillors requesting that a housing needs assessment take place. What does that mean for the Waimate District Council, which has got, say, one engineer, one community services officer, and one other officer? There will be a rating officer. Who is going to undertake this work? We can argue\u2014probably quite rightly\u2014that because every council in New Zealand is required to undertake a long-term community council plan, then a housing needs assessment can be undertaken alongside with, or attached to, an annual plan or a long-term community council plan. That is a case that can be argued. But when a council has one engineer, one community services officer, and one rating officer, who also have to deal with the day-to-day business of the Mackenzie District Council or the Waimate District Council, and who also have to deal with accreditation under the Building Act, which is still exercising many small local authorities not just in my corner of the world but throughout New Zealand, who will undertake that study? Who in a small, rural local authority has the expertise to undertake a housing needs assessment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIf we turn to the provisions contained within Part 1, we see that under clause 8, \u201CMethod of assessment\u201D, subclause (3)(d) provides for a method that gives \u201Ca description of the current balance between supply and demand in the housing market generally and, if relevant, in different sectors:\u201D If, say, the Waimate District Council is going to do that, does it do it just for the Waimate township, or does it also do it for the little villages that are spread around the Waimate District? Where does it end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI think Part 1\u2019s requirements of small local authorities, of which there are many around New Zealand, will impose an added amount of work, which they may be willing to undertake\u2014this is an enabling bill, and if the community wants a council to do an assessment, then the council may well be willing to do it\u2014but there is the question of their capability to do it. If they have to bring in consultants to undertake the work, who will pay the consultants? The concern I have is not about the willingness of a local authority to do a housing needs assessment; it is about the capability of a local authority to undertake an assessment, and the cost that it will impose on the whole of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMadam Chair, I am concerned at your direction to my colleague not to stray into the realm of finding solutions when debating Part 1, because I think Part 1 is very much about the mechanism of finding solutions. I am very concerned that we have two directions here. On the one hand we are not to try to find solutions, yet we are debating Part 1, which provides the mechanism for finding solutions through a housing needs assessment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI am concerned that a new industry of housing needs assessors will build up in New Zealand. I am concerned that there will be a number of consultancy firms\u2014they are probably writing their job descriptions even now, and scoping out the type of work they will be doing. These housing needs assessors\u2014I am sure they will find much flasher descriptions of their jobs than that\u2014will offer themselves to local government to undertake housing needs assessments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe concern I have on behalf of the Waimate District Council and the MacKenzie District Council is that although the aim of this bill is to provide affordable housing to people, the method does not actually follow through on it. This bill does not in any way achieve what it sets out to achieve. What it does is provide an opportunity for housing needs assessors to find a whole new vehicle for earning some jolly good fees from the ratepayer base of small local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022982b1c1fe1b2482993687073439f94d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022982b1c1fe1b2482993687073439f94d3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Tim Groser I just want to make something very clear to the previous speaker, Jacqui Dean, who I think misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that I wanted her to focus on the wording of the bill, on the intention in this bill, and not to focus on alternatives that are not part of this bill. Speaker\u2019s ruling 104/1 states: \u201CConsideration by the committee of the whole House is the nuts and bolts stage in which a bill is considered [part by part] and detail by detail, \u2026\u201D. It is not the wide things. That speaker did actually deal with that. But that was my warning, before people take off into the wide blue yonder of housing affordability in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022fea73d8352144c1c9c1674d68176c2d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fea73d8352144c1c9c1674d68176c2d8\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Had I heard that explanation I possibly would not have risen to take a brief call. I have to be honest: in coming down to the Chamber it was not my intention to take a call on Part 1 of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, but merely to enrich my parliamentary experience by listening to my National Party colleagues go through this bill with their customary forensic skills and tear the logic and ambiguities of Part 1 apart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EAs members may have noticed, I was sitting next to my parliamentary colleague Mr Keith Locke from the Green Party\u2014a man whom I have known for 40 years. We were discussing the strategic outlook for Hezbollah in the Lebanon, which is probably not quite part of Part 1. But I was forced to rise to my feet by the very observation that you have just made, Madam Chair. I wrote it down as: \u201CPart 1 does not require us to focus on solutions to affordable housing.\u201D I thought that this was very intriguing, given that the immediate description of the title of Part 1 is \u201CMeeting housing needs\u201D. I thought that we can afford to say this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8d37e71b0742e99c93cff44b2a9523\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the speaker resume his seat. The directions I give are not debatable. I have given a direction; it is not up for debate now. Please focus on Part 1 of the bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393e49e2e94d49ac81368ac2e706fd9f\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you; most certainly. The problem is trying to work out what exactly Part 1 is trying to fix. When I started to read this bill in the House just about 10 minutes ago I found the most childish drafting I think I have seen in my brief time in Parliament. Let me give members an example. Clause 6 states: \u201CTerritorial authorities that want to find out whether there is enough affordable housing in their districts \u2026\u201D. This sounds like a third-form essay on the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThen when we come across other clauses we find bold declaratory statements. For example, let me take clause 13, \u201CCriteria for allocation\u201D, which states: \u201CAn affordable housing policy must state the criteria \u2026\u201D. This sounds bold and decisive, but when we look at the operational clauses dealing with the criteria, which are contained in clause 10, we then find out that the criteria are a purely illustrative list of criteria that have no particular force whatsoever. It states: \u201C(1) An affordable housing policy must state the criteria \u2026\u201D. It then lists a series of criteria such as \u201C(a) the proposed location of the development:\u201D and \u201C(b) the kind of development proposed, \u2026\u201D. But it is quite clear from later parts of Part 1 that this does not exclude the possibility that a local authority may decide on other criteria, which makes a nonsense of omitting paragraphs (c), (d), and (e) from clause 10(2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe whole bill is a complete artifice. It has no intrinsic content whatsoever. One has to ask oneself why Part 1 is in this bill and what its actual, real purpose is. It seems to me\u2014and no doubt we will come to this in a more complete examination of the bill when we start to look at it in total\u2014that this is essentially a political fig leaf. This bill does not actually do anything. It is permissive of a policy that local authorities may in any event already do. It does not add anything to the sum of human knowledge in our country whatsoever. It is simply a political fig leaf for this Government to cover up 9 years of inaction on affordable housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022743a4eb35ee947cca2873238d82788a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022743a4eb35ee947cca2873238d82788a8\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f863628ada4e4c19beacb8d82384a886\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000992\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maryan Street to clause 27 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000993\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (7) \u201Cmust\u201D after \u201Cthe territorial authority\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b5c743b87157422dabc8dcb641365619\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022da85031ef10e40dd80dd8cb92493aaba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002240890903fa754977acf96a5c37013ac7\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00226f88e8ba41884536821371343ffc084a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f88e8ba41884536821371343ffc084a\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chairperson, I am intrigued that, as the Chairperson of the Committee of the whole House, you required members not to talk about solutions for affordable housing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747d1eda272446f19f2c2f51fa8f73ae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Please do not trifle with my ruling or discuss it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022752dc8aba4524fff894e80fb8b9b5f03\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am hoping that in the debate on Part 2 we can canvass solutions regarding affordable housing, given that that is, to all intents and purposes, what the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill is hoping to achieve. I will move through clauses 40, 41, and 42, and will address those particular issues, with that backdrop\u2014without actually mentioning any solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI will first convey my concern to the Committee that although clause 40 does not deal with affordable solutions to housing, it does make a couple of amendments to the Building Act. In fact, it makes three amendments. I have to say that three is too few. I do not know any builder who does not want amendments to the Building Act. Builders across the country will be delighted to see three amendments here. They have another 333 that they would like to introduce, and I am a bit disappointed that the Minister of Housing, in improving the lot of first-home buyers, has not introduced more amendments to the Building Act. It is the Building Act, along with the Resource Management Act and a bunch of other Acts that the Government has forced through this Parliament\u2014while ignoring necessary changes\u2014that has driven up house prices for first-home buyers. Clause 40 was a great opportunity to make amendments to the Building Act, which is making life very difficult for builders right across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EA builder who has done the hours and has been in the trade for 20 to 25 years cannot move a window 1 foot to the right\u201430 centimetres, for those of us born after the change to the metric system\u2014without trotting off to the local district council with a bunch of plans under his or her arm to explain why it has to be done, even though the window does not change the structural strength of the wall. A builder has to down tools, go to the council with a bunch of plans, submit them, wait 5 days for a decision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350da64341be42a0b12e575e290e3062\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Please could you take a seat. I will read to you Speakers\u2019 ruling 44/1 on the question of relevancy: \u201CBecause a matter is incidentally mentioned\u201D\u2014namely, the name of the bill that is being amended\u2014\u201Cin the course of a debate, \u2026 does not justify discussion on the \u2026\u201D Building Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1594839acd446618e8e5bbaf3e676c1\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Clause 40 involves amendments to the Building Act, and I am speaking about amendments to the Building Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ebcfa929474a0c8bf01db2600d784e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: You are not speaking about the appropriate amendments to the Building Act\u2014the ones in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eebac3c4f464b63a39e5fa2ae348729\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Who judges what is appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9d2355ec55140738472cbe9c002c5ec\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: It is whether it is written in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555bad4a5f8f4c109ba127ef869659b9\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that members are not allowed to talk about affordable housing solutions in the debate on the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, nor about Building Act amendments when the clause is about Building Act amendments. I will move on to clause 41, dealing with amendments to the Housing Corporation Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI shall remind members of the Committee of clause 35 in Part 1, to which clause 41, \u201CAmendments to the Housing Corporation Act 1974\u201D, in Part 2 directly relates. Clause 35 refers to covenants being made void. They are covenants across developments that would otherwise restrict social housing from being provided. For instance, a builder with a development of 100 houses might put a covenant across the property to say that no Housing New Zealand Corporation houses may be built there, and none of the houses may be sold to Housing New Zealand Corporation. Certainly National, as we said earlier, supported the intent of the legislation to make such covenants void, but we did mention that there is no doubt that when Housing New Zealand Corporation purchases 100 houses in a subdivision of 200 houses, that is of huge interest to the local community, and it ought to be consulted on and considered. So although National supports the idea of voiding such covenants, we do make that point. A case in point is the Hobsonville subdivision, where 400 to 800 State houses are being built. The local community is very upset about that. There has been no consultation at all, and it has caused a lot of angst in the local community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI now move to clause 42, which does not address issues to do with the Building Act and does not address issues to do with affordable housing solutions. It is well worth canvassing, because it deals with amendments to the Local Government Act 2002. This clause does not deal with development levies. Development levies are charges to builders and developers that in some cases are spread across property developments throughout the country, driving up the cost of properties and driving up the cost to first-home buyers of building houses, because in the end they pay the development levy through the added cost on to their homes. That is not what this clause is about. This clause is not about the Local Government Act driving up the costs of first-home buyers. This clause is about an amendment to section 102(5) of the Local Government Act by adding the following paragraph, which is a fascinating paragraph indeed: \u201C(c) an affordable housing policy, under the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Act 2007.\u201D It has no mention of development levies or anything like that; there is just that mention of that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b5b8b3102d4ecfa1a20d7447db997c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b5b8b3102d4ecfa1a20d7447db997c\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier in this debate I made a note to myself on the Order Paper\u2014as members do\u2014in response to one of your rulings, Madam Chairperson. The note said that I thought this Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill was about providing solutions. I thought Part 2 was about making amendments to other enactments that enhance and underpin the aim of this bill, which is to make housing more affordable for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605e3f3718f04c63a59d6ccfa3c20dc1\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t talk about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568a5411e2f945f0b1464754c55d881f\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: You see, I made a note to myself earlier on in this debate, during the debate on Part 1. As I think about things I like to note them down in case I get an opportunity to speak again. My note was that I thought this bill was about providing solutions. But apparently we are not supposed to talk about that, so I will move on to Part 2, \u201CAmendments to other enactments\u201D, and to the amendments to the Building Act 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI started my contribution to the Committee stage by keeping it local, so I will go local again, and I will go back to the Waimate District Council and its grappling with the Building Act. I had a letter from the chief executive of the Waimate District Council, Tony Alden, outlining the compliance costs that his small rural local authority has to meet in terms of audits, long-term council community plans, and, most specifically, compliance with the Building Act 2004. The Waimate District Council, if it decides\u2014because this is an enabling bill, and is about providing solutions\u2014to undertake a housing needs assessment, will have to apply the consequential amendments to the Local Government Act 2002 and the Building Act 2004, but that will be at a cost, and at a time when councils like Waimate\u2019s are grappling with accreditation and coping with the poaching of their planners and engineers by larger authorities. The Government has created a trade in planners because of the Building Act. There is not only a shortage of planners but a trade in planners. Small, rural local authorities are the very ones that are least able to cope with the requirements of this so-called enabling bill, which has the so-called purpose of providing solutions. National can see only problems and costs with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe amendments to the Building Act will not just happen by themselves. The Waimate District Council, if it decides to undertake a housing needs assessment, will require a great deal of work from its one planner\u2014if it has a planner. I do not whether it does at the moment, because sometimes in small authorities those positions remain vacant for a time, and they have to bring in consultants. That is life! The Government\u2019s changes in the Building Act have created a market for planners and engineers, and the small local authorities are the ones that miss out. So my Waimate District Council will struggle with these amendments to Building Act 2004, should the council decide to have an assessment\u2014because this is an enabling bill with the aim of providing solutions, which apparently we are not to talk about, but they are there none the less, apparently. It will struggle with these amendments to the Housing Corporation Act 1974 and these amendments to Local Government Act 2002. This bill will come at a cost to the ratepayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b65444c842394fd998a63ce04cfc37fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b65444c842394fd998a63ce04cfc37fa\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Allow me to beaver away to see whether I can stay within the rules that you have set, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268bb848374994a10ba798dd746bde7b2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The rules have been set by the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c9e679ca384a16979df2e16daaf281\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course they have, Madam Chair, and I will do my very best to comply with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI want to talk to clause 42, \u201CAmendment to Local Government Act 2002\u201D, and draw to the Committee\u2019s attention that subclause (2) amends schedule 10 by inserting new clause 7A, which states: \u201CAffordable housing policy\u2014A long-term council community plan must contain a summary of the local authority\u2019s affordable housing policy, if \u2026\u201D. I want to talk about that word \u201Cif\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c1e7613bbd43cabd9fec20d0135722\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CEff\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e026a068d79d48d4bfbc94e5b1640909\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Call it what you like. However it is pronounced, that is the word I want to focus on. That word is the nub of this whole bill. We are here tonight talking about something that may never happen. This bill, and particularly this subclause, says to local government: \u201CIf you want to, then go ahead and do it, if you think it\u2019s important and if you think it\u2019s necessary. If you don\u2019t want to do it, then it does not matter.\u201D Councils do not have to focus on it, or talk about it, or put it into their long-term council community plan\u2014only if they want to make the comment. That word \u201Cif\u201D is the nub of this whole debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239223a3c0f6c4edabb47f87e7ff080c6\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CEff\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec8fab7e97046ccabee1a2b64b449ed\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Committee should be talking about this word \u201Cif\u201D\u2014or \u201Ceff\u201D, or however one wants to say it. To me, that one little word makes that clause meaningless. Local government up and down this country is saying to this Parliament, and said so in its submissions: \u201CNot interested, thank you very much. We aren\u2019t interested because we can\u2019t do what this bill asks us to do.\u201D When the bill says \u201Cif you want to\u201D, we have had a response from local government right across this nation saying \u201CNope.\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202804ff00fb2467b863086f355267171\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CEff\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1ed57d7770245eaace80cca8d87f93f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with rare exceptions; there were one or two. No, we are not saying \u201Ceff off\u201D, but the fact is local government has rejected it. We have to ask ourselves why, if we put a bill out before local government and they come back to the select committee and say \u201CNo, we don\u2019t want to be involved, and if you give us the option of not being involved, then we\u2019re not going to.\u201D, this Parliament would ignore that advice from local government. There does not seem to be any sense in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe problem that local government authorities have, up and down this country, is that they are met with increasing costs. We are going through another ratepayers\u2019 revolt, and one of the issues that local government authorities raised with us is that if this bill gets imposed on them and if they have to follow it and undertake to do the work, then that will add more costs to their ratepayers. They were asking collectively why they should have to be responsible for social housing. They said they think it is a Government responsibility, generally. Certainly, that was the view of the smaller local authorities. They say that if they have the option, then they do not want to have to be responsible, thank you very much. They say they will not put this sort of thing in their long-term council community plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say that is the tragedy of what we are debating tonight. Some people will be listening to the debate on their crystal sets, thinking that this Parliament is going to address the issue of affordable housing, and their expectations will be raised. Unfortunately, they will turn to their local authority and ask whether it is going to do that. The local authority will say: \u201CNope, the Government said \u2018if\u2019 we want to, and we are not going to. We are not interested. You\u2019re not going to get it.\u201D What a shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff1b86cd359443890c6b75c74ef6292\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff1b86cd359443890c6b75c74ef6292\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to continue the theme in the speech made by my colleague John Carter, but, first of all, I turn to clause 40, \u201CAmendments to Building Act 2004\u201D, and pick up on the theme in the speech made by my colleague Phil Heatley, our housing spokesman. I support his comments that it is really unfortunate that this legislation does not provide for greater amendments to the Building Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EClause 40(2) amends section 49(2)(b) of the Building Act by adding the word \u201Cand\u201D. Subclause (3) amends section 49(2) by adding paragraph (c): \u201Cif section 28 of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Act 2007 applies,\u201D\u2014if it applies\u2014\u201Cnotification under section 28(6) of that Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI think that a number of other amendments could have been made to the Building Act to help us secure more affordable housing. We could, for example, have amended the Act to reduce the cost of building permit charges applied by territorial authorities. You see, what seems to be happening amongst my five district councils in the Wairarapa electorate is that they are being asked to cover their backsides with such a lot of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229de49a8b4da948d381424716c7de45f7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Bumf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205279b9dc4ec4989be6505b780d87394\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014bumf that they are having to make huge charges and are requiring vast amounts of information that are not necessary for the task of building things. So I feel that this legislation could amend the Building Act in order to reduce the cost of permits by requiring less information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ESecondly, I feel that the legislation could amend the Building Act to reduce the cost of resource consents. In the last year, for example, the South Wairarapa District Council, in my electorate, found fit to charge a constituent in Greytown, where I live, $900 for a resource consent to build a hen house that would take five hens\u2014$900 for a hen house to accommodate five hens. I think members would agree with me that these sorts of charges unnecessarily add to housing construction costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe next area where we could ask for an amendment relates to clause 40. The amendment would require that there be less responsibility on the part of councils to collect 20-page and 30-page sets of plans for very simple dwellings. If we are to build affordable housing, we need such an amendment. The planning framework at present requires far too much on the part of builders. I am told that the cost of applying for a building permit in my electorate, from any of the five councils, begins at $7,000 per house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI move on to clause 40A, \u201CAmendments to Goods and Services Tax Act 1985\u201D, and I pass on the thoughts of many of my constituents that this Act could be amended in such a way as to remove the cost of GST from the purchase of first homes. I am doing that on behalf of my constituents, not on behalf of the National Party or myself. The idea has been suggested to me by constituents, and it could be addressed by an amendment to clause 40A if the Government were serious about reducing the cost of housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIf we look at clause 41, \u201CAmendments to Housing Corporation Act 1974\u201D, we see that, again, we are not being asked to make any significant amendments at this point in the legislation, except for subclause (3), which amends section 3B of the Act by adding new paragraph (c), which states: \u201Cto arrange for territorial authorities applying the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Act 2007 to receive appropriate advice and information, of a policy or other nature, about housing and services related to housing.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis legislation is totally unnecessary. That clause delivers absolutely nothing to the people of my electorate. It will make no difference whatsoever to the cost of their housing, except that it will add to construction costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8743fa696b34dec8512b2c68309bb91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8743fa696b34dec8512b2c68309bb91\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to follow on from my most eminent colleague John Carter, who spoke about clause 42, \u201CAmendments to Local Government Act 2002\u201D, and particularly about new clause 7A, \u201CAffordable housing policy\u201D, which is to be inserted in schedule 10 of that Act by clause 42. This is Mr Carter\u2019s famous \u201Cif clause\u201D, and it states: \u201CA long-term council community plan must contain a summary of the local authority\u2019s affordable housing policy, if it has adopted one under the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Act 2007.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhat I understand that to mean is that there is no way that a council could actually consult on an affordable housing scheme in conjunction with a long-term council community plan. It would have to run a separate process in time to catch the process of a long-term council community plan if it wants to include a summary of the affordable housing scheme within the long-term council community plan. So in actual fact it will have to either wait for another 3 years before it can do its long-term council community plan or run it in a pretty condensed time frame through a consultative process with its community to try to get it in the next round of a long-term council community plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESo, in spite of the comment made earlier by a speaker, I do not see that there is any way that an affordable housing scheme could go through a consultative process in tandem with a long-term council community plan. That just adds another cost, because the council would not have that advantage. If it wants a summary, then it will have to do all that work beforehand, and it will not be able to run it concurrently. So there we have that separate cost of consultation and, of course, the hundreds of thousands of dollars that go with that. Councils have already said that there are 60-plus pieces of legislation that already add about 6 percent to the rates bill as it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EFurther, in speaking to Part 2, I am looking at the commentary on the bill with regard to the amendments to the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985. As my learned colleague John Hayes mentioned, there was a recommendation for the inclusion of new clause 40A, which would make consequential changes to that Act. There are two main effects of the recommended amendments. The commentary states: \u201CUnder new clause 40A(2), when a person undertaking a development made an affordable housing contribution payable to the territorial authority, the authority would be deemed to supply goods and services to the developer. Under 40A(3), when a contribution from a person doing a development was in the form of land, both sides of the arrangement would be charged at a rate of zero percent.\u201D The commentary goes on to state: \u201CThese amendments should\u201D\u2014not \u201Cwill\u201D but \u201Cshould\u201D; ever hopeful\u2014\u201Creduce compliance costs for all parties.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWell, it quite patently will not. It will not do anything in terms of reducing compliance costs. If we look at what compliance costs are, we see that they are the costs of applying for a resource consent and the process that one has to go through to do that, and, hopefully, the consent process is not challenged. That is a compliance cost. Then, the cost of building consents for actually putting any housing on the subdivision, if that is what one is doing, is a compliance cost. So I do not see that having a GST rate of zero percent will do very much at all, because a person is already incurring all those other costs and they are not being changed in any way, shape, or form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI refer to the comments made earlier by my learned colleague Phil Heatley, who talked about development contributions, which are another compliance cost that will not be addressed by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dab9723b2e0c4af39a9bbbe4d7fc6b75\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: They listen to me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfff0f9187444d579b56a05aefba5084\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we absolutely do listen. You know, the tragedy of it is that those members on the Government benches are not listening, because they do not understand this stuff. They cannot get their heads around the simple cost of doing business, because all they can see is the profit line, and they hate that. Businesses making a profit is an anathema to them. So we are looking at amendments that \u201Cshould\u201D reduce compliance costs, and at the word \u201Cif\u201D, which John Carter was fixated about in clause 42, \u201CAmendments to Local Government Act 2002\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00223f66abc7c5114c8fb628672b423593e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f66abc7c5114c8fb628672b423593e9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 2 of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill and to address specifically the amendments being made to the Local Government Act 2002 in clause 42. This clause amends the Local Government Act, and I will tell those people who are listening out there to this debate what it does. Clause 7A, \u201CAffordable housing policy\u201D, which is to be inserted in schedule 10 of that Act by clause 42, states: \u201CA long-term council community plan must [now] contain a summary of the local authority\u2019s affordable housing policy, if it has adopted one under the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Act 2007.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EGovernment is about providing leadership and about providing the tools to achieve certain goals in that leadership. Clearly the leadership that we are trying to achieve here is to provide and increase the supply of affordable housing. I am guessing that the aim of inserting clause 7A is to help achieve that goal. I have some questions for the Minister in that regard. I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Maryan Street, how many councils indicated to us in their submissions that they will be looking to include a piece on affordable housing policy in their long-term council community plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e7d327efbc44f17bd8a5af79fd74393\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: How many? None.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283be4fdf388c488c92dc7e0598436cc5\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: None. So here we are, introducing legislation with the aim of increasing the supply of affordable housing by introducing a clause into Part 2 of this legislation and changing the amendments to the Local Government Act, and taking up Parliament\u2019s time to do something that will not achieve the goal that we set out to do. So I ask the Minister a second question. Did we do any analysis of the cost to local councils of doing an affordable housing policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce7580bd93241b682e2781ce5dd214d\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: No, but Local Government New Zealand did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b77d0017a3441b976fa13d9eedd4aa\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Did it? And what was the cost there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc62488e118407aba29702a7f505ba9\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: It blew out in the case of most council\u2019s plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4aea231d5184b7e9fcb1fcbd2a2462b\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I have another question for the Minister in relation to this long-term council community plan policy. If a council already has affordable housing within its boundaries\u2014as the Napier City Council does\u2014but does not intend to expand its affordable housing, will it now have to include a piece in its long-term council community plan about how it manages that affordable housing? That is an interesting question. And I ask the Minister this: in doing this legislation, in the analysis\u2014in the projections that have been done for the cost of implementing this legislation\u2014how many affordable houses are proposed by local governments around New Zealand? Were there indications from those who submitted that they would be going down the track? Maybe there were 150 in Auckland or 60 in Taranaki? I have another question for the Minister in regard to the long-term council community plan and the analysis that was done. How many families will benefit from this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe point I make\u2014and I will finish on this\u2014is that Government is about leadership. Yes, there is a problem in this country about affordable housing, and we have gone through this legislation with the aim of doing something to improve the lot of people by providing affordable housing. But the clear fact is that there are very few, if any, local governments that will actually do anything about the amendment that we are proposing to the Local Government Act 2002. They will do nothing. This is a complete waste of time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7ae7923d9a4bf5a8ca6678caa7b6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7ae7923d9a4bf5a8ca6678caa7b6de\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219a640eaf2ed40be9fa39c605bf28947\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ffac2525c577499f9498299c09998caa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b505021458f4615b18f29b600e5ac08\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022452f44650bcb4e22a08f431912652431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022452f44650bcb4e22a08f431912652431\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. You have treated me with an even hand, I very much appreciate that. I am delighted to take the opportunity to speak about solutions to unaffordable housing, having been restricted in doing so\u2014for a very good reason\u2014to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI have been very surprised that the Minister in the chair, Maryan Street, has not made a single contribution this evening, and I query that. She came to Parliament and has been upheld as a politician with a purpose, and I certainly respect that, but she has brought two pieces of legislation to this House. In the first one she wanted landlords to pay the cost of damage caused by tenants\u2019 guests, even though landlords have no control over whether tenants invite guests into the property, and if they do, over who the guests are, when they come, and what they do. She also wanted landlords to pay for accidental damage caused by tenants, even though there is no way of proving whether the tenants did the damage accidentally or deliberately, or of establishing what happened. This Minister brought that legislation to the House, but it did not get the support of this very wise Parliament. Now she brings this Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill into the debating chamber, and we have not heard a squeak out of her. I want to know why that is the case. Is she ashamed of the legislation? Has she read the legislation? Does she understand what this legislation does not do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI put it to the Committee this evening that this bill, rather than giving the opportunity for first-home buyers to get affordable housing when they are under financial pressure or cannot get a deposit together to do so, is about ifs, buts, and maybes. It essentially says that councils may\u2014they do not have to, but they could do so if they want to\u2014provide affordable housing in their districts. If they do decide that they want to provide it, they have to do an affordable housing study. That involves councils possibly going to various community groups, depending on what they want to do or whom they may like talk to, and putting together an affordable housing plan. Then, if they decide that, yes, it is worth going forward, or that maybe it is not worth going forward, or that perhaps it may be worth taking a bit of a punt, they may or may not require developers to set aside 10 percent of their land and put it in a land bank for affordable housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBut councils may decide they do not want to do that. They may decide get developers instead\u2014perhaps\u2014to write out a cheque in lieu of the land, and put the cheque into a trust for affordable housing. Or\u2014perhaps\u2014councils may change their minds and decide that rather than doing that, an alternative could be to get the developer or builder to build affordable houses in lieu of providing land or cash, and put them into a trust for first-home buyers. Of course, that ignores the fact that builders or developers, if they set aside land or pay cash in lieu or\u2014perhaps\u2014build affordable houses themselves, will take a financial hit and will therefore have to regain the profit or income they have lost because of those additional costs. That will mean putting up the prices of all the other houses in the development. Ninety percent of the buyers will pay more for their houses so that the costs are lower for those who may or may not get the opportunity to buy an affordable home, if a council does or does not decide to have an affordable housing policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThat is the kind of policy that may be enacted tonight, and, if this legislation is enacted, councils may or may not choose to use its provisions. If they do, developers may or may not set aside land, or provide cash in lieu, or build houses themselves. Builders may or may not choose to do that if a council decides that it will or will not have an affordable housing policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing in all this sort of \u201Cperhaps-ness\u201D is that councils have this wonderful opportunity\u2014and there are two of them in this country that may or may not forge forward and take up the provisions of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9f580dc5ac49ec890b59d11b831efd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Who are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62b01caec6346c793dd7b0522f7d019\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not remember their names, but I do remember that there are over 72 district councils across this country and two of them have said clearly to the Local Government and Environment Committee, and have written to me and said clearly, that they will definitely, maybe, take up this offer and are delighted to have this opportunity. That is good news for first-home buyers! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational, on the other hand, says we definitely will give people tax relief so they will have more money in their back pocket, because we understand that take-home pay is what pays a mortgage. National has said we will get interest rates under control, because we know that even a 1 percent interest rate cut on an average mortgage is worth about $40 extra a week, let alone a 2 percent interest rate drop, which would mean about an extra $80 could go towards a mortgage, so there is no housing pressure. On the one hand we have something that is in the ether and could happen. Some councils might take up the provisions of this legislation; if they do it is good luck to them, and if they change their minds, well, that would be like a lot of things promoted in it. On the one hand there is whole lot of uncertainty, and on the other hand the National Party leader is saying take-home pay matters and interest rates matter, and those are the things we would address first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EFirst-home buyers, those who are looking for a home, are under pressure. We know that property prices across the country have stabilised recently, and have in fact dropped in many parts of the country. But they are still at a point well above what most young people can afford. That is also true for elderly people who would like to own their own home in their retirement. What is the Minister going to do about that? I do not know. She may speak tonight. She may not speak tonight. She may change her mind after the debate has closed and discover that it is all too late. I do not know what the Minister thinks, and I wish she would take a call this evening. At least John Key says National will address the things that matter\u2014the things that will affect all New Zealanders, whether they want to buy a house or have bought a house, and whether they are young or elderly. John Key will address the issues that matter, and those are ensuring that take-home pay can service a mortgage, and getting interest rates under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOf course, there is a bunch of other policies that we will be supporting, but we cannot support this legislation. We actually do not know what use it will be. We do know that it could force up the property price of every other house on a subdivision if a council does take up the provisions of this legislation. We do know that councils right across the country have opposed this legislation because they feel that it will add more costs to their own bureaucracy and therefore to their ratepayer base. We do know that many, many community housing organisations across the country are opposed to this legislation as well, for a variety of reasons. But we do not know whether, if this legislation does pass tonight, any council will take up its provisions and any first-home buyer will get any benefit from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn my earlier speech, I did point out one thing, which is that the genesis of this legislation actually came from the Queenstown Lakes District Council, which does this voluntarily. Developers and builders there voluntarily set aside some land or cash or cheap buildings, so that they can house nurses, teachers, police, and hospitality workers, for example, who would otherwise find it very difficult to afford housing in Queenstown. Affordable housing is provided on a voluntary basis down there, and that works very, very well, but the Labour Government feels it needs to legislate. Why does it need to legislate, if Queenstown Lakes District Council is doing it already? That is a question that the Minister could answer. Why legislate, when a council is doing this already on a voluntary basis in order to address a particular problem in a particular community in our country? Why legislate, and why does the legislation give councils so many choices that it means affordable housing may or may not happen? Why legislate on something that is already able to happen under the current law? At the moment we have a situation where, as I said, Queenstown Lakes District Council can provide affordable housing already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI had an interesting email during the course of the debate, which I would like to read to the Minister. This is from a builder somewhere in New Zealand. He was quite fascinated by the speeches that have been coming forth from this Chamber this evening. I hasten to add that the only party whose members are making any speeches is the National Party. However, this is what this great New Zealander said: \u201CLabour members do not want to acknowledge, or choose to ignore, that if you force developers and builders to provide low-cost sites, it will only force the price of other sites higher, thus reducing the affordability for other buyers. If you force builders to provide low-cost sections, it will only force the price of other sections up, thus reducing the affordability for other buyers.\u201D Well, I could not put the situation more succinctly than that. That is the problem. Essentially, if district councils take up the opportunities available under this legislation\u2014they may choose not to, but if they decide to go forward after, perhaps, doing some consultation with the local community\u2014in fact that may end up driving up house prices in a district, rather than giving opportunities to first-home buyers in that district. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis bill is one of a number of initiatives that appear to have turned to custard when this Government talks about affordable housing. Members will recall the discussions about Hobsonville. This bill came out at the same time as an announcement that about 450 sections in Hobsonville would be available for first-home buyers. Those sections and houses will cost $350,000 to $370,000. People will require a household income of $70,000 to $75,000 in order to be able to purchase one. I remember asking the Minister, Maryan Street, in the debating chamber one day whether she thought that low to middle-income earners would be able to afford one of her so-called cheap homes in Hobsonville, if the home costs $350,000 and it would require a household income of $75,000 to service the mortgage, buy food, fill up one\u2019s petrol tank, and buy a block of cheese. She said of course low-income and middle-income earners would be moving into the houses at Hobsonville. I argued that low to middle-income earners do not earn $75,000 per annum, and that is where the debate was left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EPerhaps the Minister could take a call and address that particular issue, because I am still intrigued as to whether she considers that a low-income earner does earn over $70,000 a year. My understanding is that low-income households earn nothing like $70,000 or $75,000 a year, and low to middle-income earners cannot afford to buy $350,000 houses, even if the Minister puts a sign on the house saying it is a good, cheap deal. Even if the Minister does put a sign on a house saying it costs $350,000, it is cheap, and it is a good deal, I tell the Minister that most New Zealanders will not accept that. They do not believe that. That is far out of reach for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo the Minister has a lot to answer for with regard to this legislation. She can tell us, first of all, why so many councils opposed it and why so few are supportive of it. She can tell us why it is voluntary. How is the Queenstown Lakes District Council able to provide affordable housing already? Why do we need legislation if that is, in fact, the case\u2014or is she saying that council is breaking the law? And what is the answer to those builders out there who say, as this gentleman\u2014or woman\u2014so aptly put it: \u201CIf you force builders to provide low-cost sections, it will only force the price of other sections up, thus reducing the affordability for other buyers.\u201D? What is the answer to that builder? I would have thought that what that builder says is, in fact, the case. Perhaps the Minister in the chair, Maryan Street, can answer those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022b922814d4bfa4854ad29232854c65620\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b922814d4bfa4854ad29232854c65620\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call simply because of the inanity that we have been hearing from members on the other side of the Chamber, which clearly shows that an understanding of the really significant issues around affordable housing seems to elude the Opposition members. John Carter said earlier that the significant word in this bill was \u201Cif\u201D. He is absolutely right. The Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill is voluntary; it is voluntary for territorial local authorities. If it is not to be voluntary, then I would ask Mr Carter what the alternatives are. If it is not to be voluntary, then would the National prefer that it be compulsory? That is one of the options. The National Party says it would not like to make the legislation compulsory, and certainly we do not wish to make it compulsory, because we know the territorial authorities do not want that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWhat other choices are available? If National does not want this legislation to be mandatory and does not want it to be voluntary, the third choice is to do nothing. And that is what I hear coming from the Opposition in every discussion about affordable housing. I hear it say we should do nothing about affordable housing. I hear the Opposition say we should do nothing about the people who, by now, ought to be in a position to be able to afford their first house, except that in the last 5 years the price of houses in the market has escalated by some 80 percent\u201480 percent. So a number of measures are required in order to make sure first-home buyers once again have a chance to get into the housing market. One of the options that has been put up is this bill. It is a voluntary bill; it does not mean that territorial authorities have to go into anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut I can give members a very good example, back\u2014[Interruption] It is clear those members are not interested in answers. Mr Heatley asked a moment ago about whether this bill was relevant to the Queenstown Lakes District Council, which was in fact in the process of putting out affordable houses anyway. Well, I just draw that member\u2019s attention to some current affairs that I would have thought one of his colleagues, the member for that area, could tell him about. However, she has not done so. The fact is that the Queenstown Lakes District Council is currently being taken to court by a developer for trying to do this kind of thing without having the legislative backing to be able to do it. Now let us hear some of the responses on that. Let us hear some of the ignorant comments that have come out from the Opposition be tempered with a little fact. This bill is needed because local authorities are actually being taken to court by developers for trying to provide affordable housing within residential developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn the brief time I have left available to me, I will give members a couple of other examples. I understand that Tasman District Council has recently voted against putting together an affordable housing plan, which it had voluntarily decided to put up to its council members. It has chosen to vote against that. Right next door, I understand the Nelson City Council has put aside $40,000 because it wishes to put a plan together. It is allocating some funding in order to put an affordable housing plan together. I would suggest that the Nelson City Council is likely to benefit from having an affordable housing plan, to the detriment of Tasman District Council right next door, which may choose not to have such a plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf councils have that opportunity and that choice, then where is the Opposition\u2019s problem? I will tell the Committee what the problem is: we need more affordable housing in this country. And one of the things needed in order for that to happen is this bill. Tax cuts will not do it. The tax cuts proposed by the National Party will be eaten up by Maurice Williamson\u2019s tolls on roading every week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d07b5df01c9e4f449ab5a0be11b962a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d07b5df01c9e4f449ab5a0be11b962a9\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E When we hear that weak Minister in the chair, the Hon Maryan Street, talking about doing nothing, we can look at this legislation and see that the Labour Government has taken 9 years to put forward legislation on affordable housing. It has taken 9 years, at a time when New Zealanders have had a housing market they have not been able to be in. They have not had the opportunity to buy the Kiwi dream, to set up a family home for their children, and to partake in the capital gains that they would get as members of the home-owning community, and this Minister puts forward this legislation in the last week of a dying Government. Well, that is simply not good enough. If the Minister wanted to help those people, and if she wanted to provide affordable housing, then she should have done it a long time ago. If she had done it a long time ago, the Government would have worked out what actually makes the difference in affordable housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Government does not understand the difference between income and equity. The Government of the day believes that if it gives equity advances, it will assist people into housing. Well, the reality is that the biggest thing dictating whether people can get a loan and, therefore, whether they can get a house is the income ability of the individual or the family. The ability to service a debt is the key ingredient in getting a loan. People can go and borrow 100 percent from a bank if they want to, but the Government of the day believes it is about the equity people put into the purchase of a house, not their income-earning ability and their ability to repay the loan and pay the interest on their debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat is the difference between National and Labour. The National Party understands business. We understand that if one has income in the hand, then, as a member of the community with that income, one can go out and buy a house. If a person is just given capital commitments, then to a large extent it will not make any difference to his or her ability to purchase a home in the current environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the current environment, we see that the Labour Government has done one thing to make housing affordable in New Zealand\u2014it has destroyed this economy. It has absolutely and criminally destroyed this economy to make sure that we are in recession at a time when we should be growing. With that recession, the housing market has declined, and it is making houses affordable through its economic mismanagement of the New Zealand economy. That is the reality of what is going on out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EBut the great thing about that from Labour\u2019s point of view is that the Government is also taxing those hard-working New Zealanders who need some income in their hands to take advantage of the lower market. And what is the Government doing? The Government taxes individuals and families, meaning that they cannot go out there and purchase properties, because all their money is going towards paying for the Government\u2019s promises at election time\u2014promises brought in to try to win election after election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EGovernment members do not care about affordable housing. They do not care about New Zealanders getting in there and buying their first home. They do not care about families having an asset that they can all treasure and build upon. All they care about is promises that they can go out to an election campaign with\u2014false promises based on equity and not the income ability of an individual or family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat is the point of difference between the parties, and that is why New Zealanders are struggling to get into homeownership. The answer to that problem is to have a strong economy, and only National will deliver that. If we have a strong economy, then we can deliver strong and successful wage increases, and that gives individuals and families the ability to go out and purchase properties. Without a strong economy, individuals and families do not have that ability to purchase. They stagnate, just like their country is stagnating under this Government, and the people of New Zealand find that they cannot access homeownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAffordable homeownership is more about how one runs an economy than about how one actually dictates the rules of the game. It is about how one gives New Zealanders who want to purchase their own home a chance to go out and do it themselves. That is the real nub of making housing affordable in this country, as it is in any other country. The Government will not, though the whim of a piece of paper, make housing affordable. That is why this legislation is all a lot of ifs, maybes, buts, whatevers, and whoevers, and nobody is taking it on board, because the reality is that the market, the councils, and the individuals know that they need income streams to have affordable housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022739b7deff88d48a9983f510f2229e891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022739b7deff88d48a9983f510f2229e891\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I recently heard somebody say that this Labour Government had done a lot for health. I thought that was an interesting observation, so I asked the person to explain. The reply was: \u201CIt has. It has made lots of people sick.\u201D Well, I thought the person had probably got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister in the chair, the Hon Maryan Street, just say that she wants to do something for people so that they can have more affordable housing. Well, the sad thing is that this bill will actually distance people from that objective. That is what is disappointing about this legislation tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EEarlier, during the debate on Part 1, we heard a very good dissertation on clause 6, about the fact that what we are doing and what we should be doing is working with industry to see whether we can provide good but small and less costly homes\u2014affordable homes that are not so pretentious but are still secure, dry, safe, warm, and healthy, though maybe of a smaller size. The Minister in the chair at the time suggested that starter homes be two-bedroom homes. There is nothing wrong with that. In our generation a number of us started that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere are companies around that are prepared to provide those sorts of homes. In fact, a company up north is starting off with a house that will have three bedrooms but will not be large. It will have all the facilities and will be warm and dry, and it will probably be put on the market for about $120,000. By the time the cost of a section is added in, it will be somewhere between $180,000 and $200,000. That is within reach of a lot of people. We heard a very good dissertation on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThen, in the debate on Part 2, we heard a very good dissertation on clause 42 and the issue around the word \u201Cif\u201D. I know that we had that dissertation, because I made it. Both dissertations were very good, I have to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBut the disappointing thing is that this whole issue is likely to move us further away from the objective rather than achieve the goal the Minister wishes to achieve, which is to make housing more affordable. If we could have argued here tonight that this bill in itself would somehow or other allow young families or those who are starting families to get into their first home, and if this bill gave them that step, then we could support it. We could actually say that, yes, there is merit in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ERemember, it is not something that local government has to do; it is an option, and so far I think only two have suggested they might take an interest in it. One is led by Bob Harvey, the Mayor of Waitakere City, who is inclined to support Labour Government legislation. Only two local authorities might get involved\u2014and there are only two that might. That means that nothing will be achieved other than that some people will have their expectations heightened because they will think the Government has put through a bill that will make housing more affordable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIf this legislation is implemented, it will actually put on more cost on; it will not take cost away. We would happily have worked with the Minister and the Minister for Building and Construction to take away compliance costs. We heard tonight that it is estimated that the cost of getting a permit to build a home is now, on average, about $25,000. Just to get a section with all the costs around resource management and other costs is about $50,000. That is before starting to build\u2014just in compliance costs. That is a total of $75,000. We would happily have worked with the Minister to see how we could reduce that. We would have worked constructively with her and her colleagues to achieve that, because $75,000 is a lot of money for a lot of young people\u2014for most people, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWe would quite happily have worked away with her, and local government would have come to the party to see how it could help reduce costs. Already there are ways in which that can be done, but, unfortunately, this bill does not address any of that. All it says is that if local government wants to it can consider affordable housing, and if it wants to it can include it in its long-term council community plan. If it wants to it can do an assessment, and if it wants to it can talk with developers. Well, actually, local government has the opportunity to do that already. This bill will not achieve any of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00220caeae33ecb14a7699b978f59d9f46a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220caeae33ecb14a7699b978f59d9f46a1\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In some respects I have some sympathy for the position the Minister is in. She has just been appointed to this position recently, after God knows how many disastrous predecessors. She has inherited a problem, the roots of which are deep and substantial, and she has been told to come up with legislative sleight of hand masquerading as a substantive solution. Frankly, the time left for a substantive solution to the things actually driving this problem has long since disappeared. What we have left is a political fig leaf, and it will not cover the reality of the problem the Government will confront when, finally, it is forced to confront the electorate and face the decision of the New Zealand people as to who is to govern them for the next 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have, with this bill, an empty vessel, almost wholly without content. Let us look at the language. It is childlike in its simplicity. We have bold, declaratory language leading absolutely nowhere. Clause 6(1) is my favourite\u2014\u201CTerritorial authorities that want to find out whether there is enough affordable housing\u201D. I have never heard anything more childlike in its simplicity than that clause. Clause 8(1) states: \u201CA territorial authority that decides to assess the need for affordable housing \u2026 must choose the method\u201D. Well, what on earth would it do? I have never seen anything so amateurish, so childlike, and so thin. But, of course, I understand the problem, because the roots of a solution would have had to be taken years ago by this Government, and this Minister, who is in the unfortunate position of receiving a suicide pass on an issue of fundamental importance to the New Zealand people, has come up with a completely empty vessel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ELet us examine what the real problem is and put some numbers around it. In 1999 a median-priced house in our country cost just over six times the median wage. By 2006 this cost had catapulted to 10 times the median wage, and it is higher today. In 1999 it took 42 percent of the average pay to service a mortgage on the median house price. Today it takes around 81 percent, and that is after people have saved 20 percent for the deposit, which, of course, by definition is a larger sum of money. It is no wonder that New Zealand is now one of the least affordable places in the world to find a house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIf members of this Government think that this political fig leaf, this legislative sleight of hand, that they are forcing through in the dying days of this Parliament [Interruption]\u2014under urgency, I say to Mr Cosgrove\u2014will fool anyone, then I say to them that the only people it will fool, I am afraid, are themselves. They will find this out the hard way on the hustings in a matter of weeks. The day of reckoning is right before them, in all their electorates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245edea639f7b4749bea33880daf7342d\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Bring it on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af45ce11ff3247bebe659e34efd73cf0\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014including Mr Cosgrove\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe Minister said that this bill is voluntary, and she asked what the alternative is. I will tell the Minister what the alternative is. The alternative has nothing to do with this approach. The alternative has to do with coming to grips with high interest rates. What has driven high interest rates? It is an inflation rate that has been divided up into two sectors for the last 5 years\u2014the traded sector and the non-traded sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe one thing the Government had control of, if it had wanted to attack the roots of this problem, was non-traded sector inflation, which has been nearly above 4 percent for 5 years. But that would have meant tackling the gorilla in the room\u2014the role of the Government\u2014and tackling the need to do something to reverse the disastrous slide in productivity that is behind this problem. Having seen the Government do nothing on that front for 5 years, we now see, entering from stage left, a massive inflationary injection from the traded sector, which\u2014up until now\u2014with the higher exchange rate we had, and with constant price depreciation from the manufacturing plants of China, helped to contain inflation. But it has now gone berserk in the opposite direction. We now have imported inflation adding to the additional problem that this Government never tried to resolve and never tried to get on top of. These are the real solutions to the problem, not this phoney legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022cac5ad4f65ef4959afe99baa46adb69b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cac5ad4f65ef4959afe99baa46adb69b\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002235fa4f132fae4d71a16d2be7dfed9ee8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235fa4f132fae4d71a16d2be7dfed9ee8\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to be able to take a call. I was appalled by the Minister\u2019s previous speech to the Committee on this bill. It alarmed me in the sense that if councils can do this already\u2014address the problems of housing affordability\u2014then they should be left to it. We do not actually need legislation to say to councils that if they want to do this, they can. That is just an absolute nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Minister then said, in terms of the affordable housing scheme, that if a council has a scheme, then all the developers can be blackmailed by that scheme to participate. When we start looking further into this bill, we see that it gets worse and worse. If developers thought things were bad now\u2014and when I say \u201Cdevelopers\u201D I mean people who want to do the business of providing housing for our many, many communities in their own way, and that is a worthy endeavour\u2014they can see that we are now putting in place yet another hurdle for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI direct members to clause 34. You know, if developers are scared, they will be even more scared by all this. In the event of a dispute it will be the Environment Court that decides. Clause 34(1A) states: \u201CThis section applies to a person described in subsection (2) if the person considers that there is a conflict\u201D. Subclause (2) is headed: \u201CThe persons are\u2014\u201D, and the list includes the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWell, we know what it is like when a Minister suddenly gets pulled into a consent process dispute. We need only look at the Whangamata marina to see what a mess the Minister of Conservation made of that, and here we have the potential for that same event to happen again, with the Ministers not being able to help themselves and making matters worse by poking their noses in. The mere fact that the Environment Court will decide the outcome in the event of a conflict means that the affordable housing scheme just gets worse and worse. If a council has one, and if people want to build houses for their communities, they should look out, because that will really bite them where it hurts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI refer members to the commentary on the bill. We talked about ifs\u2014that is, the fact that adopting a scheme is optional. The fact that the Minister says \u201Cif\u201D makes it voluntary. If it is voluntary, and councils can do it now if they want to, why do we need legislation? It is absolutely dumb, and the Minister just does not get it. The public gets it. Both Phil and I have received emails and texts from people saying: \u201CWe hear what you\u2019re saying. Good on you. Go for it. How dumb can they be?\u201D, and we totally concur with those sentiments. We are getting those sorts of emails and texts now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhen I was reading out some of the parts of the commentary on the bill earlier on, we talked about the provisions with regard to GST. The Minister said that the bill \u201Cshould\u201D reduce compliance costs. Well, hello\u2014talk about hopeful and wishful thinking! It \u201Cshould\u201D, or maybe it will, but we do not think so. Quite frankly, this bill will do nothing but increase compliance costs. When we look at the consultative processes that local authorities will have to go through just to provide an affordable housing scheme, we see that the costs are absolutely huge. Local authorities have to do a full cost-benefit analysis, apart from all the other things they have to do that are set out in the different parts of the bill. It will be another huge cost on local authorities to get that expertise in order to pull all that information together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6439b31b6914937a56439b1592d8307\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Have you written this speech on your cast, Sandra?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b9138ac71a4ec9ada6a228d02cbd6b\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps that Minister might like to take the opportunity to read the bill, and maybe to develop a bit of an understanding of it, because the Minister of Housing has absolutely no idea of the definition of a compliance cost. If she did, she would know that all this bill will do is add compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis bill does not address the cost of a resource consent, the cost of a building consent, or the cost of development contribution fees, and it does not address the fact that most of that has to be paid up front. The people who are contacting us are talking about their own experiences. Ordinary mums and dads, as someone said, might want to build a hen house, a carport, a garden shed, or even a deck. It just gets worse and worse, and here we have a Minister who is totally ignorant about what compliance costs actually mean. This is something that Minister Cosgrove might like to focus his mind on. He might like to take a bit of notice of the actual bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3bec34e04124de4b9c6748e4804b2b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3bec34e04124de4b9c6748e4804b2b9\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002271c0bb85efee42dabb3b1f220b25ead1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271c0bb85efee42dabb3b1f220b25ead1\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642f68ff3f22420fa68d2790c617d553\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Here\u2019s Sir Les Patterson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a578a58fe24f48adae95e1d78267c9\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: It is Les Patterson if the member likes, but I tell Mr Cosgrove that this bill is theatre. It has no substance whatever. It is theatre. It is absolute arrant, childish nonsense. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Maryan Street, should be ashamed of herself, and her officials should be ashamed of themselves, for bringing this rubbish to the Committee and expecting us to be sitting here debating it. It will change nothing in this country. It will not deliver one affordable house to one person in New Zealand, and the Minister has wasted the cost of building an affordable house with all the costs of putting this rubbish together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis bill is, in the Minister\u2019s words, voluntary. Well, it is not as voluntary as she thinks it is, and let me explain why. If one develops a piece of land from nothing, the first thing one has to do is to go to the council and apply for a resource consent. Then that has to be advertised, and huge costs are associated with doing that. Then once one gets through the consultation process and secures the resource consent to subdivide, one has to bring in surveyors, architects, and electricians to provide underground services and lighting. Then one has to provide sewerage, curbing and channelling, and macadam. All those things amount to a very high cost. On top of that, the existing law requires one to pay a contribution to roading and a contribution to the amenities. Now clause 23 in this bill is proposing that developers can have additional costs imposed upon them, and the Government is to price all the constructions it is wanting to bring in to reduce the cost of housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAll the Government is doing is putting up the price, because if it imposes a cost on a developer, he will pass it on. So if, as this bill provides, local authorities can start imposing additional costs upon developers on the basis that they may have to make so many houses in a particular development affordable houses, then all that is doing is creating a cost to be passed on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe way to make house affordable in this country is, first of all, to get rid of the Resource Management Act and its Draconian elements. The Resource Management Act is OK to a point, but it needs significant changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe second thing that needs to happen is that the Government needs to encourage councils to back off on the requirement for building plans, because just to apply for a building consent requires a minimum payment of $7,000. Who told me that? Builder Dave Borman told me that in Masterton last week. It costs $7,000 to get the proposal to the council. Then the council will get engaged in the process. It will want engineering reports, and they cost money, and it will also start to engage in a whole lot of other rules and regulations that come from the long-term council community plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EClause 24, \u201CWho may object to what\u201D [Interruption]\u2014the member may object to that\u2014states: \u201C(2) A person to whom notice is given under section 22(2)(a), ie, a person doing a development,\u2014(a) may object to the decision on any ground; and (b) may object to a provision in the territorial authority\u2019s affordable housing policy on any ground.\u201D All the Government is doing is setting up in this legislation more confrontation between people in the community who want reasonably priced houses and the local authorities that the Government is dumping more rules on through this legislation. I can tell members that, because I have five district councils in my electorate and they do not want more nonsensical legislation imposed upon them. All the Government is doing is cluttering an already overburdened system that is not working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04161a4f04d47f7b2ba1e9188a8d2b2\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It is not mandatory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ba8fdc63d140ed92d4b47a28c7173c\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: What does the member mean by saying that it is not mandatory? It is voluntary. That means it is worth nothing\u2014absolutely nothing. This legislation means nothing to anybody, because one cannot possibly enforce it. What one has to do in this country is enable people to work. Let me explain to members why that works. When I was a bit younger than Mr Cosgrove, I had a work ethic. I went out and earned money and I saved a deposit to buy a house. Now we have a system called family support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea198dbed718479fbca9c47fa12d8084\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea198dbed718479fbca9c47fa12d8084\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aecb0f5c8e5544589258174e6f88284e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022744ac615a33643ce85f85bb612ab9858\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022608f12ef8aef4330bda197a0ed885704\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001122\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001123\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002259905f7846a644ebb84938d5f1ddcc2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259905f7846a644ebb84938d5f1ddcc2d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e2e5d6b12b4843108c1e579201ab46ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227bf8a8d72fe84bf4ab568678378d7ade\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6cca930d8324caa832fb1ee847ff215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6cca930d8324caa832fb1ee847ff215\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill be now read a third time. The purpose of the bill is to enable territorial authorities, in consultation with their communities, to develop and adopt affordable housing policy that requires developers to provide an affordable housing contribution for low to moderate income households. The passing of the bill will give territorial authorities new powers and a clear mandate to increase the supply of affordable housing in their areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe supply of affordable housing is currently vexing a number of territorial authorities around the country. Those authorities see the need to improve economic development and economic prospects within their jurisdictions in order to enhance the lives of the families and communities living in those areas, yet they see forces over the last 5 years in particular as having worked against housing affordability, for a number of reasons. There are five places in New Zealand that are extremely expensive to buy houses in. The bill will give territorial authorities in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Queenstown, and Nelson, in particular\u2014but also anywhere else where the pressure of unaffordable housing is being felt\u2014the ability to require a contribution of affordable houses, money, or land from developers, in order to satisfy some of the need for affordable houses to accommodate the workers and families who are required to boost and support the kind of economic development to which those territorial authorities aspire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe use of the new powers in this bill will vary across the country, depending on the need, so it was important to not make the bill compulsory. One might have inferred from John Carter\u2019s contribution earlier that the National Party was keen to make the bill compulsory, or alternatively, to do nothing\u2014that is the only other inference that one could have drawn from John Carter\u2019s contribution. The bill is an enabling provision, not a mandatory one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe other important aspect of the bill is that the policy for affordable housing must be developed in consultation with the community. Nobody wants to see enclaves of disadvantage proliferating throughout the country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202d7b5c5e53341808a3f6dc36e37485a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: The Tories do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57160c46d814d538e8069320adc0207\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, perhaps. It may be that they are the only ones who wish to push poor people farther and farther out, beyond the reach of community services and transport nodes. That is not the vision of this Labour-led Government for our communities or our country. This Labour-led Government has a vision of mixed communities with a range of tenures from State house rentals through to homeownership at very high rates, in order to achieve harmonious, cohesive communities that are prosperous and safe for everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe bill includes a range of incentives that territorial authorities can offer to developers, to facilitate the provision of affordable houses. The bill also consequentially amends four pieces of legislation. The select committee process has simplified the bill, and I have worked closely with Local Government New Zealand to ensure that the bill is more closely aligned with the processes that local government bodies are familiar with in the Local Government Act 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI thank all of those who made submissions on the bill. I also thank the Local Government and Environment Committee and acknowledge the work it has done to bring the bill to this stage. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022143a64349213416da293ba832ff8769c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022143a64349213416da293ba832ff8769c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I was remiss in the Committee stage for not speaking about the commencement date of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, and I would like to raise that now in my third reading speech, which, of course, I am quite entitled to do. Listeners will be interested to know that this legislation comes into force when it receives the Royal assent, which is, of course, almost immediately. That commencement date is quite ironic in the sense that councils may or may not take up this legislation. In fact, most councils across the country have opposed the bill, as have builders, developers, and those who provide housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThis legislation has come 6 years too late. During the previous 6 years, probably ending at Christmas last year, property prices have skyrocketed in New Zealand. They have been growing much more quickly than household incomes. That is what housing affordability is all about. It is about the balance between household incomes and the buying power of that income\u2014in other words, household incomes versus the cost of housing. The cost of properties is divided into two aspects: one is the cost of the building and the other is the cost of the land. Property prices have skyrocketed over the last 5 years, up until roughly Christmas last year. In terms of those two cost components, building and land, it is land that has increased in cost\u2014more so than the cost of building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe have now reached the point where property prices have pretty much stabilised right across New Zealand, and in fact they have dropped in some areas. So here comes Maryan Street and Labour. Property prices have finally stabilised, if not dropping further, and she suddenly has an answer; 5 or 6 years later we have had legislation brought into this House, after property prices have stabilised. Am I saying that the stabilisation of property prices across New Zealand has solved the affordability problem? No, I am not. What has happened is that property prices have now settled at a value well over and above what most first-home buyers can afford. They are still in trouble. The reality is that we had a period of growth that went for over half a decade, and the Minister, Maryan Street, now rides over the hill on her white horse to save the day, but she is 6 years too late. That is obscene. What has she saved the day with? She has saved the day with legislation that suggests that local councils across the country may or may not like to force builders and developers to set aside 5 or 10 percent of their land for cheap housing, to set aside a whole bunch of cash from their housing development for first-home buyers, or to build a whole bunch of cheap houses themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Minister ignores the fact that that will drive up property prices for everybody else. As the correspondent who has been emailing me tonight has suggested, what Labour members \u201Cdo not want to acknowledge, or at least they choose to ignore, is that if you force developers to provide low-cost sections it will only force the price up of other sections\u201D, meaning that the house price of everyone else in the subdivision goes through the roof. It is quite true that if we force property developers, builders, or whomever to take a big hit on a few sections in a subdivision, all it will do is force up the price of houses in the other parts of the subdivision, because those builders will have to recover their costs. So a whole bunch of people end up paying more for their houses in order to possibly help a smaller bunch of other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOf course that smaller bunch of other people may never be helped because, as we heard at the Local Government and Environment Committee, very few district councils across the country are interested in taking up the legislation. In fact, I was quite amazed that the Minister acknowledged the five regions in New Zealand that have serious affordability problems: Christchurch, Nelson, Queenstown, Auckland, and Wellington. Interestingly, Auckland City Council and the councils in South Auckland, mainly, and also North Shore City Council do not want a bar of the legislation. Wellington City Council came to the select committee and had very serious concerns about the legislation. Nelson City Council is not interested. We heard from Christchurch City Council that it may or may not use the legislation. Queenstown Lakes District Council is already implementing the principles of the bill without the legislation. So there we have it. Of the five areas that the Minister Maryan Street identified as having serious affordable housing problems none of the five are likely to use this legislation. That is the disgrace we are seeing here tonight. The 6 years have passed when the Government could have done something. It did not do anything and finally, in the dying days of this Parliament, it passes legislation through this House\u2014forces it through this House\u2014that will have no effect whatsoever upon the regions that may or may not take it on, because they are not at all interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is why she does not do something for first-home buyers that will actually help them. Why does she not address the issues that matter? There are four or five of those issues. First of all, what about tax relief? It is take-home pay and not gross pay that services a mortgage. So why does the Government not give people more money in their back pockets so they can afford to service a mortgage? Why does it not do that? That would help everybody; it would absolutely help everybody. Take-home pay matters. Why does the Government not deliver a tax cut for those first-home buyers so that they can service a mortgage? The deposit is not the problem; it is the weekly or fortnightly payments that trip up people. Members on the other side of the House do not seem to understand that, but that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESecondly, why do the Minister and her Government not run this country in a better way, economically and fiscally, so that we can get interest rates under control? Interest rates, more than any other factor, affect a person\u2019s ability to service a mortgage. The Minister will acknowledge that the average mortgage in this country is about $200,000. That is not the average cost of a house but the average mortgage. A 1 percent interest rate drop equates to two grand a year, which is 40 bucks a week. So a 1 percent interest rate drop can mean $40 a week to a first-home buyer. That is a significant amount of money, I can tell members, for many households today that are really struggling. A 2 percent interest rate drop would mean 80 bucks a week. That is very significant. The members on the other side of the House who have not made a contribution in this debate all night but simply sit there and mock do not even understand that take-home pay matters and that interest rates matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWhat is more, the Building Act and the Resource Management Act are two pieces of legislation driving up property prices right across the country. Why? It is because builders are finding that the cost of compliance under the Building Act and under the Resource Management Act has driven up property prices over the years. Why? It is because of the cost of the resource consent process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would just like your guidance. I have been speaking for about 8 minutes. [Interruption] Can I make a point of order in silence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaeb84c509db49708af4dcb1da04cff7\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we must\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227af9bb274674945aa932efee404c641\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The members on the other side of the Chamber have been heckling me the whole time. It has not stopped me at all; I have not responded to their heckling. They have not disturbed me one iota. Why do they bother, Mr Speaker? Can you answer that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223370f396abb043989ef5f2d25bbb654e\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Heatley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022120c4eb478624b7b95dca9d2fc51b054\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Government not do something about the Resource Management Act and the Building Act? Why does it not give tax cuts so that people can afford to pay off their mortgage each fortnight? Why does it not get interest rates under control? Those things would really make a difference, instead of bringing legislation into the House in the dying days of this Parliament that no local authority across the country will adopt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u002269a747fc398a4b11bfccc1cd5a2a3aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269a747fc398a4b11bfccc1cd5a2a3aa3\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is 25 minutes to 12 o\u2019clock so I will keep this rather short. The working public of New Zealand who are listening to this debate could be forgiven if they feel somewhat confused after listening to the National Party contribution on this significant Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe public will have heard speakers from the National Party attempt to portray empathy for the local citizens of New Zealand, but the truth is that those members do not care. They do not care about people who are struggling with private rentals. They do not care about families who want to get into their first home. The truth of the matter, for those who are listening, is that National just does not care about ordinary New Zealanders. We can look at 1990 when National was the Government. National Party members were the ones who sold off the State houses of New Zealand. They were the ones who sold them off to their friends. They were the ones who refused to maintain the stock that we now have to rebuild\u2014that is what the Labour Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the Hon Maryan Street, because she is a Minister of Housing who is showing leadership in difficult times. She is a Minister who is showing innovation by coming forward with the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. Labour believes that access to decent, affordable housing is fundamental to the health and well-being of families and communities. It is a basic human right of New Zealanders that the National Party does not seem to consider to be important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe bill provides new powers to enable territorial authorities to increase the supply of affordable housing in their local area. It does not try to impose anything on local authorities; it is an enabling bill about working in partnership with local government throughout this country. \u201CPartnership\u201D is a word that the National Party ought to be familiar with; it ought to learn from this Government. This is a Government that is prepared to work in partnership with like-minded parties in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI join the Hon Maryan Street in commending this bill to members of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022adfe3ef371874a9788ae6deab271ca30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adfe3ef371874a9788ae6deab271ca30\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E There is only one comment we can make about Mr Sio\u2019s speech; one word sums it up and that is \u201Cnothing\u201D. It was a zero contribution. What a shame. The sad and unfortunate thing is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222177fbddc1644fa6b8f3d5ee3f308840\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Did you think of that yourself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c6c74606e045b197aceaa37fb11584\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the member across the House that he certainly would not have done so. He has not the capacity to think of anything. All he thinks of is nothing, because that is what is between his ears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe unfortunate thing about that contribution and those we have heard so far from the Government side of the House is that this is a serious issue. It is an issue that the Minister of Housing, Maryan Street, did hope she might achieve something on. She hoped that through this legislation she might make housing a little more affordable for some people. Sadly and unfortunately, that will not be the result. The sad fact is that had the Government worked with the industry, worked with building firms, it could have come up with something that would have been very positive for people on low incomes. It could have come up with good, sturdy houses of a smaller size\u2014with three bedrooms, but sturdy, warm, healthy, and safe. All those things could have happened. In fact, a firm up north right now is looking to put such a house on the market. It is a small, three-bedroom home, but nevertheless it is a good start-off home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EMost people in my generation started off in a smaller-sized house then moved up. We have gone away from that in this country because our expectations have grown beyond our ability, and we need to get back to the fact that it is actually acceptable for people to start off in smaller-sized homes\u2014something not quite so pretentious that nevertheless allows people to bring their children up safely and healthily. A firm will be putting a house on the market for about $120,000\u2014just for the house. That firm is to be commended. The shame of it is that this Government did not think to start working with the firm and to ask it how it could help make that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9d21dfcef004d789bfbcb8b9239af97\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve added $30,000 to the price of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7b9612ba8d47eeab2811a0c3f6b9d9\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the shame of it is that if the Government had been prepared to look at the whole issue of the compliance costs, the National Party certainly would have supported it. Local government now issues building permits. The extra compliance costs for an average-sized home are about $25,000 per home. That is a hell of a lot before one even starts building. We also know that compliance costs are imposed on sections, because of councils\u2019 obligations under the Resource Management Act. Lianne Dalziel asked earlier who passed that Act: it was passed by the National Government with the support of the Labour Party back in 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd8297e92784f9a8837f271a0fe54a7\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: So what is your problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692c7d3515f84f4485468c22c5576ea9\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: She may have forgotten, but it was actually a unanimous decision\u2014just so that she understands we are all complicit in the cost of it. She sits there and asks who passed the Resource Management Act: we all did. The sad thing is that this Labour Government actually has had a chance to redress and reform a whole lot of it, and the Government has forsaken that opportunity. Well, that will be addressed if we are fortunate enough to become the Government after the next election. But the problem in the meantime is that it actually costs, on average, about $50,000 a section now for someone to start subdividing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227307b2a5ab42497a8191bf96f84b07f4\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: At least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2cfd06935c340e7bfa4ecd7acd397db\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, on average. That is an estimate\u2014it is hard to guess exactly. But it is about $50,000, plus $25,000 for building, so one actually starts off $75,000 behind. If we had addressed that issue in this bill, maybe we would have made some more progress, plus worked with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad49b7785adf46c280721eb37094ca28\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you fix it? You had 9 long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728e0a97b52d4901adb9905ecb5ccca8\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have both had 9 long years\u2014and they have been long years. The sad thing is that this Government has done nothing to address it at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022505108680e124399a34dc58174dcc0e7\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253ef718c387485192dfc75cafb4bc78\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member over there shoots her mouth off, and that is the problem we have. Those members talk a lot and will not listen. She has actually done nothing at all other than chap her gums. If she just listened for a minute, she would see that I am actually trying to be constructive, but that is not something she is known for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe fact is that had we addressed those issues, we would have actually seen something positive. Indeed, I believe that if we had addressed some of those issues, we would have the support of local authorities across the country, as well. It is they who tell us of the problems they have. When one talks to local government\u2014and I am sure the members here have and do\u2014one sees that it is bound by rules and regulations that cause it problems in servicing its constituents and ratepayers. That is part of the problem that we should have been addressing in this legislation about affordable housing. Sadly and unfortunately, it has not been addressed. I know that members in this House have tried to get round the whole issue of building regulations. Unfortunately, it has just got out of control. I was told just recently by a roofer that if he had to follow every rule and regulation set down by the Department of Building and Housing, every roof he put on every house would leak. That sort of stuff is nuts, and it is that sort of stuff\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea65cb6d62b4bd3b7ed800d48daa126\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227937db33f6de46cc87676bcf4c3f8eaf\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can get the guy to come and talk with the member. The fact is that if that roofer built according to the law, the roofs would leak. The silly thing is that we have people writing rules and regulations who do not know about building. The fact is that sort of stuff is increasing the cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOn top of that, the unfortunate thing about this bill is that it adds to the continued cost that this Government is imposing on local government. This is just another cost. If the local government bodies pick up this challenge put down by the Government\u2014and most, if not all, of them will not\u2014then it will just be another cost. If members look at clause 42, they will see that it says that local government bodies have to \u201Ccontain a summary of the local authority\u2019s affordable housing policy,\u201D. Well, that means that if they develop an affordable housing policy, they have to get consultants in to develop it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263632f7d1c9a47f595169973fc95268f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241e36bed45b6444392fbfa126020d6de\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am. I am reading it right here. Just for members, I say that it says \u201CA long-term council community plan\u201D\u2014I will read it slowly for the member, because I know she finds it hard to absorb\u2014\u201Cmust contain a summary of the local authority\u2019s affordable housing policy, if it has adopted one\u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51b8b233bef4da69e794df7aee786d6\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CIf\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680f44cb909f431bae795ebaeb0304fb\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I talked about \u201Cif\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b83390a0831f4c909d98f1970166fe4d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What does \u201Cif\u201D mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e22ca9c47047d39256bec088f68d98\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, did I not make a speech about \u201Cif\u201D? Did I not say that that is why it is so silly? It actually means that local authorities do not have to do anything. So why do we have this bill before us at all? The member just argued against herself. The bill says \u201Cif\u201D local authorities do it\u2014well, most of them will not do it. Most of them will not do it, because they know that it will not achieve anything, but if they do it, it will cost the ratepayers money. If they do it, it will cost the homeowner more. The chances are they will not do it; I am sure they will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe only thing that is iffy is that member\u2019s future, actually; her ability to continue making these stupid rules is limited, thank goodness. But the fact is we have legislation here, and the member herself has just asked why we should put this provision in if no one is going to do anything with it. The sad fact is that that is what the bill will end up with\u2014nothing. I started with nothing and this bill will unfortunately end up with nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d79800adab9e4c38a9a0a37701ccbc10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d79800adab9e4c38a9a0a37701ccbc10\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. It has been a long day. I do not know whether it was my good fortune, but as a consequence of the Order Paper I had to be here at 9 o\u2019clock this morning. Those of our fellow citizens who are working out there and making sure that our country is still alive, who are travelling back from work having completed their night shift, or are travelling to work to start a night shift, may be interested to know that the House is now hearing the third reading of the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to say that we continue to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis country needs more affordable homes for its citizens. The bill provides for that. It is very interesting to hear critics of the bill accuse the Government of doing nothing, yet here we have a bill that was introduced into the House to help the issue of affordable housing for its citizens, and they still criticise the Government for it. The bill provides a vehicle for territorial local authorities, which is voluntary. Those who have spoken against the bill have questioned this voluntary aspect. That then raises the question as to what the alternative is. Making it compulsory, or doing nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThen we heard that those who have spoken against the bill would solve this problem with tax cuts and by controlling interest rates. Well, I tell those home seekers\u2014in fact I caution them\u2014to please, please not get sick; to be prepared to home school their children; and to talk to their neighbours and plan how they intend to protect themselves from criminals. Those are just some of the services that will be affected. But the public can rest in the knowledge that, with the tax cuts, they will be able to pay the tolls to travel on the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI apologise for my cynicism, but here we have a bill that is intended to address a serious issue, and, rather than giving support to it, much of the debate has been to deride it. However, I appreciated comments about how developers would pass on those costs to others. When I heard those comments, I pondered on the houses built in the 1950s, 1960s, and even 1970s, and on the fact that the three-bedroom homes of that era were very much smaller than the three-bedroom homes of this day and age. I wonder whether it could be a practical solution for designers or architects to revert to the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s design of homes, so that we would then be able to build more on the land that is available. Now that might sound pretty simplistic, but I ask members to think about it, if that is the concern that people have. Quite clearly, this bill is all about allowing territorial local authorities to exercise their option to take it up, but it does\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289e53457993d4468b24d3c980391ae52\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: They can do it already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c27e97bcc4504a38a80a2ca142c322e0\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: But, I say to the member that some do not, and, as a consequence, nothing is done. Again, here is another vehicle. I do not want to prolong this debate. I am quite clear, on behalf of New Zealand First, that we support this bill. We commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022452bc7ed80a04a0cb85f5b3516b86e59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022452bc7ed80a04a0cb85f5b3516b86e59\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I will raise some pretty scary issues here. The Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill gives councils the option as to whether they want to have an affordable housing scheme. That is great, I say to members. It is optional, but the scary part is that if councils decide to take up that option and go down the path of having an affordable housing scheme, the bill states in clause 28 that binding commitments may be required. We must remember that an affordable housing scheme will have a standing accorded to it alongside the Resource Management Act, so that it goes through an Environment Court process and is then included as a part of\u2014and has the equivalence of\u2014a district plan. That means it will be very difficult to change that policy once it is in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI also add that the Governor-General has the power to make regulation to enforce or require some commitments through those affordable housing scheme policies. Some considerable commitments will be required of developers here, so I do not see how that can be supportive of affordable housing, because those additional costs on developers will have to be met in some way or another. Let us look at the binding commitments that may be required when a council develops an affordable housing scheme. The council can make some binding commitments on the developer at the time of granting the resource consent and the building consent. Those are two different occasions when the council can make the developer meet commitments in terms of affordable housing, and that has to come by way of land, money, or the building of houses on property. Whichever way that cake is cut it is going to be a cost on the developer. How is that to be met? It will certainly not be the council that will meet that cost; it will be the developer, and that cost will be passed on. It will be interesting to see how that pans out in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI go to the commentary, which states, in regard to GST: \u201CThese amendments should reduce compliance costs for all parties.\u201D Well, hello, I have never seen such a glaringly incorrect statement. That is an absolute joke. It shows complete ignorance and a lack of understanding of what compliance costs are and how they are passed on. It shows that this Government\u2014and in particular this Minister\u2014has no understanding of the fact that businesses provide jobs and wages to people to be able to afford to buy homes. In the Coromandel our average wage is one of the lowest in New Zealand, at around $26,000 a year. How on earth will lower socio-economic groups be able to afford even an average home\u2014even the home that John Carter talked about? It is an absolute joke. It is absolute nonsense that not only will binding commitments be possibly required of developers but also it gets really scary when we consider what has happened through the Resource Management Act process and how it has developed under councils. This measure is just adding to that process and, frankly, anybody building subdivisions should be very, very afraid of what it will mean if a council adopts it. Not only will this put compliance costs on to developers but also it will put added costs on to ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOnce again, we have to look at the bill to see what the criteria are around developing an affordable housing scheme. The bill has gone to great lengths to outline all the things that are necessary for a council to do to meet the criteria for having a scheme. The commentary states, in relation to clause 10, that the criteria must include the proposed location of the development, the kind of development, the potential of the development, the desirability of the community having a variety of housing tenures or whatever, and also a cost-benefit analysis is required\u2014the whole works. The bill is really, really prescriptive about all of the work a council has to do to come up with an affordable housing scheme. Councils will have to develop or purchase that expertise. That means\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a71daf8002439495cb2b60ad1ab4e4\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Let her speak!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3fc857e21234a5e8ff28efa4fe6bb95\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: No, just ignore them. The Minister of Housing is totally ignorant about compliance costs. If we ask Government members to define what compliance costs are, they cannot come up with an answer. Maybe the Minister might like to take a call and share with us what she understands compliance costs to be. If we ask anybody applying for resource consent or building consent what sort of charges they are experiencing at the coalface they will say those costs are prohibitive in terms of undertaking their activities. I challenge the Minister to tell us what she thinks compliance costs are and what compliance costs she thinks will be reduced as a consequence of her bill\u2014that is, if any local authorities take up the opportunity to have an affordable housing scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI think this bill is an absolute nonsense. In her own commentary the Minister said that it should reduce compliance costs. Well, hello, it is not going to; it will have the opposite effect. I wish this Government would get with the programme and really understand what the fiscal implications are. It has no fiscal understanding of the impacts of any of the legislation it puts in place. I see that the Minister of Finance is here. Maybe he should take a call and tell us what he thinks compliance costs really are, and maybe he should enlighten his Ministers as to what they are. This bill will deal to developers. It will do nothing but shut down subdivisions and shut down housing. There will be even fewer opportunities for people to buy their own home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022d38a788261b34fba8844e9a12193b888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d38a788261b34fba8844e9a12193b888\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E If we want to build affordable houses, then I am afraid I have to disagree with the Minister. Even if one is living in Queenstown, Wellington, Nelson, or Auckland, and one is earning a substantial income, house prices are very substantial. One could be living in Eket\u0101huna, earning $12 an hour, and not be able to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2008090234e5f2b8669a4808b4c91fb090d44f5f001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d1198f651724349bf9aacb66230baf2\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb7f73d59b714e92a02da9a7c38de341\u0022\u003E(continued on Friday, 5 September 2008)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf9188a54aa54f47a67891f12baaa41b\u0022\u003EAffordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002235cd478041694ef7a049491b41da592e\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0a3a4db69640c1bfe2af17890addb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0a3a4db69640c1bfe2af17890addb5\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I say \u201CGood morning New Zealand\u201D and give a particular welcome to those listeners in the Wairarapa, my electorate. This legislation demonstrates everything that is wrong with this Government. First of all, the wording has child-like simplicity, as my colleague Tim Groser said last night. Secondly, when we look at what this bill will do we see it will do nothing. This is worthless legislation, and the Government is doing exactly the same thing with this legislation as it did with the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill. With that bill the Government set up the theatre of doing something important. This housing legislation is all theatre as well. It will do nothing and has no substance, whatsoever. It is a political fig leaf. This legislation demonstrates that the Government is again transferring responsibility from central government to ratepayers, through territorial authorities\u2014just as it has done over the past 9 long years. This legislation will simply impose more taxes on to communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWith this legislation the Government aims to put increased costs on to developers and builders, just as it did with the Retirement Villages Act 2003. This Government has put huge compliance costs on to entities that try to provide accommodation for our old folk. What is the net result of those huge compliance costs? In the last 3 or 4 years all those small retirement villages have folded. This housing legislation will do exactly the same thing, because it aims to load developers and builders with increased costs. This legislation will increase bureaucracy in territorial authorities, because it creates a new employment category\u2014the housing inspector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIn this House there is no disagreement about the need for affordable housing for people, but there is a philosophical difference between the squawkers on the other side of the House and the serious people on this side. This bill highlights the serious philosophical differences on this issue of affordable housing. Our method of dealing with this issue is, first, to create the conditions where this economy grows and money is left in people\u2019s pockets, not sucked out by an over-bloated Government. The first thing is to leave money in people\u2019s pockets, and that means capping the growth of Government, capping the amount of taxes, and then reducing them over a period of time, so that people have more money in their pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ESecond, we have to strip away the increased bureaucracy that this Government has created. I think particularly of the Resource Management Act. In the House last night I gave the example of a fellow from Greytown, where I also live, who had to pay $900 to get resource consent to build a fowlhouse for four hens. What arrant nonsense this Government is imposing on our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThird, we have to remove the constant stream of burdens that have been imposed on territorial authorities by this Government over the last 9 years. I am thinking of air quality requirements, I am thinking of water quality requirements. Those things may apply in Wellington, Auckland, and Christchurch but I promise you they do not apply in much of provincial New Zealand. By imposing those requirements we put a huge burden on our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThen I address the lack of intellectual thought that goes into the big projects that this Government proposes to support. If we are thinking about the need for more affordable houses, we realise there is quite a simple solution. It applies in my electorate, which stretches from Ngaw\u012B and Cape Palliser on the south coast, to north of Waipukurau and Waipawa\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3b7833c45644059e873219aa1cd4bc\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Takapau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236fc459e7a764a0fab4e7742b958c77e\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014including Takapau where Pita Sharples was born and I look forward to seeing him there soon. There is a huge amount of land in our electorate. I want to move quickly from that statement to the logic around developing infrastructure in the region. This Government has said it will build Transmission Gully, but when we think about it, we realise that Transmission Gully will not open up any new land on the west coast of the North Island. But if we were to put a tunnel through the Rimutaka Hill, we would provide rapid access to all of that land in the Wairarapa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022affed1dafc734fb88f591b2e99869193\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eff8f004fe64a2dbcfd88d443d74481\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Cullen laughs, but I assure him that a tunnel through the hill would cost $400 million less than Transmission Gully, and it would have a positive internal rate of return or cost-benefit ratio\u2014unlike Transmission Gully. If we did that, it would open up huge amounts of land to be used for affordable public housing, because the land has a reasonable price. Then we would get access to Government buildings in Masterton\u2014emptied out because of this Government\u2019s policies. We would get access to the hospital in Masterton\u2014emptied out because of this Government\u2019s policies. We would get access to empty buildings in my electorate\u2014empty because this Labour Government has closed schools in my electorate. There is huge capacity there. The infrastructure is in place; it is already built, but it is rotting because this Government is sitting on its backside and cannot focus beyond the big cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe National Party stands absolutely opposed to this legislation because it will not provide one additional affordable house for anybody in this country. It is an outrage that this legislation has consumed huge money in bureaucratic time, huge money in House time, and huge money in select committee time. This legislation is childlike and meaningless. It will not deliver affordable accommodation in this country, at all. It will increase the burden on ratepayers through territorial authorities, because the Government is trying to create the theatre of some sort of substantive change, when none exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002285a4cae5258b4d939f501c718a5504d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a4cae5258b4d939f501c718a5504d8\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a very brief call on behalf of United Future on the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill. As I mentioned in the second reading, United Future supported the first reading. We were excited to see the Government weighing up some options around affordable housing, but we have been disappointed in what has come out the other end and are unable to support the bill any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe bill gives powers to territorial authorities that they may, or may not, use. If they do choose to exercise the powers contained within the bill, it is unclear whether they are obliged to apply them in an even-handed way. The truth is a council could impose rigid obligations on one property developer and choose not to require similar obligations of another. How that would play itself out at a local level is completely unclear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe bill provides very limited guidelines to the territorial authorities about who they can capture with these new powers, if they choose to use them. It is unclear, for instance, whether they can capture current landowners who purchased land in anticipation of establishing a housing development sometime in the future, and who were unaware at the time that they purchased that land that the territorial authorities would subsequently be given powers to slap some serious challenges on to their business plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future agrees with, I think, all parties in this House that central government should be looking very seriously at a range of options to better facilitate the provision of affordable housing in New Zealand. However, we do not believe that this bill is a well-considered option, and we are sorry to say that we have to pull our support at this stage. The bill has some other interesting provisions that have merit, but we cannot agree with the main thrust of it, which I think is to place upon the territorial authorities much greater responsibility for the provision of affordable housing. One of the things that United Future is scared of is that it shifts the responsibility to the territorial authorities in a way that is unhelpful. We think that the territorial authorities could choose to incentivise the provision of affordable housing through reduced compliance costs\u2014that is a hugely positive possibility that, even now, they could choose to do\u2014but they should not actually dictate to a landowner. That is why United Future is a little surprised that the M\u0101ori Party has chosen to support this bill. That party has a fine track record in this House of advocating and standing up for the property rights of others. I think that is an area that that party has neglected to consider in terms of the imposition that this bill allows the territorial authorities to place on landowners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe motive is good, the motive is fine, but the bill certainly breaches the principles of our party, and we are unable to support its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e1a0b003e3b474cb394afe745f55fbe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; M\u0101ori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 47; ACT New Zealand 2; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221471b975dd31468fbcad61e8ca752eae\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eebb0a265b124359af5a89d94e3f4369\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00221e63b7ec7f574b0db5c4aa68a9741a77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e63b7ec7f574b0db5c4aa68a9741a77\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Customs: I move, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a second time. This bill was introduced into Parliament in December 2007, and it has three purposes: to reform the statutory appeal review rights and the forfeiture and seizure regime in the Customs and Excise Act, to provide greater flexibility for the Customs Service to deal with ad hoc arrivals and departures of craft, and to give the service better control over illegal tobacco manufacturing operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe matter of appeal rights arose as a result of a Law Commission report on the forfeiture regime in the Customs and Excise Act. The Government has agreed to reform the appeal rights available, to allow the owners of goods that have been seized the right to be able to reclaim the goods in a much less complicated way. The Law Commission concluded that it should be possible to challenge the seizure, by an initial internal review process, which would involve little or no expense to the challenger and should be accomplished without delay. To give effect to this, the appeal rights in the Act are being repealed by this bill, and are being replaced with a Customs Service internal review process. Applicants who are dissatisfied with decisions resulting from an internal review will be able to appeal those decisions to the Customs Appeal Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIn relation to ad hoc arrivals and departures, I tell the House that all arriving craft and those departing New Zealand are required to do so at a nominated customs place. There is currently very limited power to make exceptions, and this bill will allow that flexibility to be there. On the matter of tobacco, I can say that in a recent case the court determined that the amount of tobacco a person could hold for personal use was quite substantial. The argument at the select committee was whether this new determination should be done through statute or by delegated legislation. The select committee gave this matter careful consideration, and the Minister of Customs also discussed the matter with the Law Commission. The happy result was the acceptance of the recommendation of the majority of the committee, that the personal use exemption should be moved from delegated legislation into primary legislation, and clause 6A gives effect to this decision. On behalf of the Minister of Customs, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022578952a55f1248cb89b17a93e2ea80ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022578952a55f1248cb89b17a93e2ea80ab\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Assistant Speaker, given your opening comments at the beginning of Parliament today that you wanted both humorous and erudite speeches, I respect your call! I start off by saying that the National Party supports this Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), for a range of reasons that I am sure will be covered in the speeches following. First of all, as the Minister just said, the bill does three things. Forfeiture and seizure regulations will be amended, as per the recommendations by the Law Commission and others, and there will be an ability to appeal to the High Court, and to the appeal authority within the Customs Service if something is seen to be less than acceptable by someone who may be before that authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe second thing, which I guess is probably the most important, but which I am sure will not get the most debate, is the ad hoc arrivals and departures. I think most people accept that something needed to be done in this regard, because the Customs Service was left in a bit of a legislative vacuum with regard to the situation prior to the proposal today. Obviously, with increasing air travel, large airliners, and sometimes an inability for customs to cater for three or four planes\u2014747s\u2014arriving all in one go, the ability, ad hoc as it were, to shift them in adverse weather conditions to somewhere like \u014Ch\u0101kea or Palmerston North, for example, if the jet is of a size that can land in those places, is clearly sensible. The concern I have about that, of course, is whether the resourcing for biosecurity as well as for customs will ever be big enough in those destinations, in that ad hoc circumstance, to be able to cope with the volume that will suddenly be placed on facilities that are not normally required to carry out that efficient service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo that is yet to be tested. I know that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee put some time into that. I was not a member of the select committee, but I know that my National colleagues on the committee certainly scrutinised these things closely. So that is yet to be tested; I am not very anxious about it at this stage but it is an area that needs to be signalled as potentially of concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe third area of amendment that the Minister touched on was the tighter control of exemptions for tobacco growing for personal use. I notice that the select committee members clearly did not entirely agree on this. In fact, there was quite an unusual circumstance whereby on one of the Government\u2019s select committees\u2014a committee chaired by a Government member\u2014the Labour members put in a minority report. That is not the norm, as I understand it, in a committee where the Government has a majority. For Government members to be putting in a minority report is quite an unusual circumstance. The only thing I can draw from that\u2014and I am sure my colleagues who will follow will enlighten us as to how it came about\u2014is that the agreed figure of 15 kilograms of tobacco per person that is allowed to be cultivated is about the consumption of some of the members on the committee in a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo they clearly were not happy with that, and the Labour members felt strongly about it, and wanted that amount to be much higher\u2014 otherwise there would not have been a minority report from the Government on that. It is interesting, and I will be interested to hear the debate from the Government members, of course, who will take a call, and explain how they ended up with the Labour Party members having a minority report on that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI noticed that the Green Party also had a minority review about the exemption of 15 kilograms for personal use. I would probably guess that they were not keen on that quantity. I would give the Green Party the benefit of the doubt, and suggest that it was probably trying to get the amount down rather than up. Clearly the Government was not\u2014it was trying to get it higher. I am sure the National members brought some sensible sort of consideration to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EMy colleague John Hayes points out to me that the committee is chaired by the very capable Martin Gallagher from Hamilton. Dr Wayne Mapp is the deputy chair, and Taito Philip Field, I am sure, was rational at all times. Tim Groser, of course, would have been completely against tobacco growth, and would have opposed it at every opportunity. John Hayes, my good colleague from the Wairarapa, is another person whom I know is an ardent protester against the use of tobacco. The only person whom I could see who buckled must have been the Hon Murray McCully, and that would have brought about the exemption of the quantity of 15 kilograms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EGoing back to the original bill, the weakness that was uncovered, I guess, in the forfeiture and seizure regulations by the Law Commission, is one that has been around for some time. I understand, based on some of the research I did prior to the debate, that there have been some substantial examples of people who have felt that they have not been given a fair deal. But on the whole, the Customs Service\u2014and we must remember that the Customs Service in New Zealand is the oldest Government department\u2014has a very proud record. It does not often feature in the media. It does not have a high profile, which in itself says it is doing a good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is the oldest department. It was the first Government department set up more or less as a gatherer of taxes that was handed over to the Inland Revenue Department. The Customs Service is one of our most important departments in terms of maintaining the integrity of our sovereign nation. Some of the new technologies that are being developed for this department are very exciting, particularly in the wake of the 9/11 event in the USA around terrorist activity. They are developed not only in the US, I hasten to add, but also in Europe and other places. They show some exciting opportunity not only for customs but also for biosecurity. I hope that going forward, the Government will have the wisdom to adopt that latest technology, and I also sincerely hope that there is an opportunity to explore further synergy between the Customs Service and Biosecurity New Zealand at our borders so we can accommodate, particularly the ad hoc arrivals, but not just the ad hoc arrivals but also the increasing volume of passenger flow with tourism and trade that we as a nation are experiencing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI want to give the Customs Service a bit of a bouquet because I have met with a number of its people. In fact, I recently attended a ceremony here in Parliament where the Prime Minister presented a number of people with 50-year service medals, which is not very common, I have to say, in most Government departments. Its staff turnover is one of the lower percentages in Government departments, but there has been a concern around that\u2014there has been a bit of a flight of institutional knowledge in recent times. Attracting and maintaining the institutional knowledge and also the expertise that is needed to run a department such as the Customs Service is absolutely essential not only for the safety of our revenue, but also for our integrity and safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I close by saying that the Customs Service, in general, does a very good job. It is more or less apolitical. I doubt that we would ever get much debate in Parliament between parties as to whether the approach being taken is the right one. I wish I could say that with Biosecurity New Zealand; we cannot, but maybe we will achieve that one day. At this point in time the Customs Service is one of those departments that does a very good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00225e7f4e42da314be1b451e42280f9bc5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e7f4e42da314be1b451e42280f9bc5e\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E As chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, let me thank all members of the committee for their sterling work on the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3). We acknowledge that in the spirit of a true MMP committee in Parliament there was a variety of views. But in essence, I think previous speakers have certainly outlined the context of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI just want to make the point that the bill replaces a dual system with an internal review process with a right of appeal and a Customs Appeal Authority, and, hopefully, this creates a cheap and expeditious review process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn a sense this bill is something of a technical bill, but I have to say, to be honest, that I was a little surprised in terms of the time that we took on it, but it was time well spent. Hopefully this will be a good law. I compliment the Minister, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, and her officials and thank them for all their wonderful advice. This was a very, very interesting bill. I was delighted to be on the select committee when we considered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022114352b97f424ff784cfcea33668c30c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022114352b97f424ff784cfcea33668c30c\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E A former member of the House who actually rose to the top of the greasy pole and became Prime Minister, albeit very briefly, once told me that one of the interesting things about coming into this House is that it is like entering into a giant postgraduate training institution, because whether or not a member likes it, one is forced to address a whole range of issues that one would never in any other occupation ever have to deal with. Although there is always a concern for any member of Parliament about being once-over-lightly, the reality is that one gains over a period of years considerable knowledge. One offshoot of that is that one drills down into any technical bill, and I would argue that a bill with a title the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014eye-glazing-over material, it cannot get more technical than this\u2014is a beautiful example of the point that was made to me a few years ago. Behind this bill there are some really important things, but one has to drill right into it. I will start by making that point in respect of the whole treatment of what is actually called \u201Cchop chop\u201D, which is home-grown tobacco. To understand what the actual issue is here is, I think, an interesting illustration of this former member\u2019s point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThis issue is actually about organised crime. We start off with a health policy objective and so we have extremely high excise taxes on tobacco, as you know, Madam Assistant Speaker. There was a landmark World Bank study that we came across in the course of our examination of this legislation, written in 1999, which from memory stated something like: \u201CAll the evidence around the world tells you that the most effective measure you can take against smoking is to raise the price.\u201D If one raises the price by 10 percent, the literature suggests there is a 4 percent reduction in usage. This country and many other countries have extraordinarily high excise taxes on cigarettes for, I would argue, health policy reasons. I personally do not believe that revenue is the leitmotif of this policy; I think it is a genuine effort by Governments around the world, including various New Zealand Governments, to deal with the shocking health implications of smoking. However, as soon as one has done that one increases a massive incentive to arbitrage the difference between the low cost of manufacturing a cigarette\u2014or producing a cigarette\u2014and the retail price. This is one of the chief sources of finance for organised crime around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo behind this so-called incredibly technical and, one might say, almost boring bill are issues like organised crime. Tobacco smuggling is a huge issue. According to British authorities, it is a larger source of finance for organised crime in the UK than narcotics. In Quebec, 60 percent of cigarettes sold are estimated to have been smuggled. In New York there are huge State taxes on top of federal taxes, and we were shown an estimate whereby one trailer truckload of contraband cigarettes taken into New York and sold through legal, for the most part, outlets is worth about a million dollars. It is also related to terrorism. When the federal authorities broke into the apartment of the first bombers of the World Trade Center, they found a whole stack of counterfeit cigarette stamps showing that the excise had been paid. By the nature of our job as members of this House, we are forced to get into issues that we would, frankly, never want to get into, and what we find behind them are issues like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EOur concern was primarily gangs in New Zealand, and since the question has been raised as to the personal exemption on home-grown tobacco, I will just explain what I took to be the committee\u2019s view. The difference between the overall view of the committee and the minority view is not a large issue in terms of the underlying problem. It simply is that one set of people in the select committee working to exactly the same script wanted to leave it to regulations. We in the National Party, as a matter of principle, do not like so much discretion being left to officials. We prefer the House to state its view. So the reason why we came up with a firm figure is an issue of principle about how law is made. We just do not like ambiguity in things that affect the lives of our citizens, and we do not like changes to be made that people are not happy with, and consultation with officials instead of the bill coming back to the House. That is the reason, but that point of principle is not really an issue of any substantive policy difference among the members of the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI have to say that the limit on home-grown tobacco\u2014\u201Cchop chop\u201D is apparently what it is called; I had never heard the term before\u2014provoked a lot of discussion. First of all there was an enormous amount of confusion. I do not think we were terribly convinced by one of the submitters because of the conflict of interest between that submitter\u2019s interests and our view about what matters in the community, but I will not go into that. There was a huge amount of confusion over whether the measurement should be of dry or green matter and how many cigarettes one person could smoke in a day. But fundamentally we have come up with quite a high personal exemption use. It is the same as Canada\u2019s, so it is not extraordinary in any sense. The logic behind it is this. We felt strongly that we want our customs and police authorities to concentrate on real criminals. If we have a very low level of exemption, the law has to be administered to some halfwit out there who has just gone a gram or two over. We did not want the good men and women who carry out such tough services on behalf of us all to be, frankly, wasting their time with trivial matters of this nature. So we have gone for a relatively high personal exemption, precisely to allow the authorities conducting our business on our behalf to concentrate on the real problem, which is organised crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThere is potentially an enormous amount of money to be made out of organised crime. We find as we go through the bill that there are some very tight definitions around the manufacturing and growing process. I do not have the precise clause in front of me but it is a concept that it must be grown on a property one lives in; people cannot start up some little semi-garden plot and start to farm it. It has to be manufactured in one\u2019s own home, and it has to be absolutely for one\u2019s own personal use. There are a few issues around that. We understand that we will never have a watertight situation. In the case of somebody who rolls his or her own tobacco and gives it to a mate, we could probably argue about whether that was within the law, but the whole philosophy of the members of the committee was that actually this is a huge and serious problem. It is not out of control in New Zealand as it is in many other countries, where it is linked literally into terrorism and massive and vicious organised crimes. There has been testimony on homicides, murders, and witness intimidation that we can find right throughout the literature on this subject, but in New Zealand the issue is gangs and we want to be sure that we are not wasting the time of the authorities but are focusing on the real target. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThat is a first introduction to the bill. I think it is good legislation. Like the select committee chairman, I think the members worked very, very well together, and I think we have something that is worth putting into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002270b6cd7a1bca40d49da4009a9cf17b1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270b6cd7a1bca40d49da4009a9cf17b1f\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), and I invite members of the House to have a good look at it. This bill is a good bill. It is good, well-written legislation, in contrast to the emissions trading scheme legislation and the affordable homes legislation. If anybody in the House looks at the documents on the Table, he or she will see that a huge number of changes and additions have been made to those bills. This legislation is substantial, common-sense legislation. It is not theatre without substance, which the affordable homes legislation we have just passed is, and which the emissions trading legislation is. This bill reflects the substantive work of this House, and I am in absolute support of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe legislation comes from a department that is very well run. One of the pieces of education for me over my 3 years in this Parliament has been to see chief executives and their teams come to select committees to contribute to, and interact with, them. Martyn Dunne, the Chief Executive of the Customs Service and the Comptroller of Customs, stands out head and shoulders. He has a good team, and the department is very well led, to the point where during this Parliament our committee has not gone through a questions and answers process with the Customs Service, because we have such confidence in the administration of that department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThis legislation makes, effectively, three changes to our existing law. The first is to adopt a more pragmatic regime in respect of the forfeiture and seizure regime contained in the Act. This has application in my electorate. For example, a woman recently moved from Switzerland to New Zealand, there was a mix-up in the rules, and she ended up with all her household effects being seized. It was a nightmare to unlock the arrangements, because of the complications of the law that she had to operate under at that time. I got involved and we managed to get a good, common-sense solution. Those sorts of bureaucratic inanities are removed by this legislation, and I support totally that element of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill gives the management of the Customs Service more flexibility to deal with ad hoc arrivals in, and departures from, New Zealand. The bill talks about \u201Ccraft\u201D. \u201CCraft\u201D could be aircraft, or yachts or small boats. It makes eminent sense, for example, to allow the Comptroller of Customs to decide whether to send someone to Milford Sound so that a man rowing here from Australia can clear customs there rather than being required to paddle up to Picton or to Westport\u2014if they are authorised Customs Service ports. The provision would work in the same way for yachties up in Northland. Let us say a yachtie wants to head out to Tonga from Houhora; Customs Service officials could be sent up there to clear a yacht or a cruise ship, if that would make sense. What we are doing here is putting common sense into the hands of the Comptroller of Customs, and that is an extremely good thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe third element of this legislation is that\u2014as my colleagues have said\u2014it regulates the amount of tobacco, or \u201Cchop chop\u201D, that can be grown for personal consumption. There is an issue that has not been discussed in the House this morning, and that is that the Customs Service collects excise tax from tobacco. Because the rules have been a bit loose, some people operating in the top of the South Island\u2014not in my electorate\u2014said that they could grow tobacco for personal consumption, and they were growing tobacco in quite significant volumes. The Customs Service took a case against some growers, and it lost because of the inadequacy of the law. So I think our select committee has been perfectly sensible in deciding what quantity of tobacco meets the needs of personal consumption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe first two changes, as I have said, are rooted in absolute common sense and pragmatism, and I think they represent good, simplified law that is not in the nanny-State mould of the Real Estate Agents Bill, which we were debating yesterday afternoon, or the emissions trading scheme bill, or, as I have already said, the bill we were just dealing with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd4f797e6474a67ad5ef040caf08271\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: The appalling affordable housing bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271c696a439e543a9a69b5fed06d3df9d\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the appalling affordable housing bill, as my colleague Chris Tremain reports, and I totally agree with him. An issue that caused some concern amongst members of the committee was the personal exemption for production and manufacture of tobacco leaf beyond an area controlled by the Customs Service. As my colleague Tim Groser has pointed out, we did a great deal of research on it and looked at what other countries did. There was an element\u2014and I will be more straightforward than Tim was\u2014of self-interest on the part of the people who came here to back the bill. That is because all cigarettes available in New Zealand are actually manufactured in Australia, and the manufacturers of those cigarettes were quite keen to shut down competing supplies from locally grown tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI go back to the legislation. It seems to me that the issue fell into two parts. The first was in the context of an argument with the Crown Law Office over whether the committee should put penalties within the legislation, or whether we should leave them to be determined by Order in Council\u2014essentially, by officials. On the question of whether punishment for offences under the legislation should be contained in the primary legislation, or whether it should be put into delegated legislation, a majority of us strongly supported the principle that individuals who face a possible jail sentence should have the certainty of having the penalties spelt out in the primary legislation\u2014in other words, in this bill. The flexibility and the speed with which delegated legislation could be amended could create uncertainty in people\u2019s minds, and as a committee we felt that that was undesirable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe recognise that in bringing the exemption for tobacco into primary legislation, we have left an anomaly in the law in that there is an exemption in the context of producing alcohol. I hope the next Parliament will consider correcting that anomaly by bringing all exemptions relating to offences punishable by imprisonment into our primary legislation. The next Parliament ought to look at the offence of illegal alcohol production and bring the penalties for it into the primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe other part that concerned the committee was the amount of tobacco that could be grown for private consumption. The committee eventually agreed that 15 kilograms was a realistic amount. We did not want to have an amount that was so low that the Customs Service was engaged in trivial pursuit of people growing tiny amounts of tobacco in their garden or backyard for their own use. Although there are some health issues around the volume, the majority of the select committee came to a consensus that 15 kilograms was a good figure. I would note that the Government members on our committee did not agree with that figure, but common sense prevailed. I personally would have preferred a rather greater exemption, but that is the value of democracy\u2014that we reach a common-sense, generally agreed perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWith those words, I offer the National Party\u2019s full support to this legislation, and I particularly commend the officials for the excellent job they did in advising the select committee. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00224d02af022bc742da9bdfc365cba8b3d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d02af022bc742da9bdfc365cba8b3d8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I sensed the member John Hayes\u2019 relief when his 10 minutes came to an end. He struggled through those 10 minutes, and I have to say to the honourable member that we suffered the pain, also. It was a relief to us when he finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill is a tidy-up bill. To my mind it does three things. It updates the penalties and procedures around offences and seizures, and New Zealand First members think that is a good thing and eminently sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt provides for an individual\u2014[Interruption] I think the Berocca is kicking in over there. I sense the Berocca is kicking in. The bill provides for individuals to grow and cultivate tobacco for their own private, individual use\u2014provided that they grow it on their own land, and provided that they manufacture the tobacco, into whatever form they want, in their own house. Those are the two provisos\u2014and, of course, they have to be over 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI was interested in the Greens\u2019 minority report; it intrigued me. It states: \u201CThe Green Party member opposed writing into the legislation a limit of 15 kilograms for the personal use exemption as evidence received suggested that such a high limit was not appropriate.\u201D I wonder what those members would have said if it were cannabis\u2014an illegal drug. They do not mind growing and smoking cannabis, but they have an objection to some old veteran growing a bit of tobacco, putting it in his pipe, sitting on his porch, and enjoying watching the All Blacks win against whomever they are playing. We think that amount is a good insertion in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am particularly keen on the insertion that provides for craft\u2014sea craft, aircraft\u2014that, in extraordinary circumstances, arrive in a place that is not controlled by the Customs Service. I think it is a good move. It is a sensible move. There are three provisos. The bill allows sea craft or aircraft to arrive as a result of a statutory obligation or navigation requirement, and that is a good move. I can remember that when I was a chief officer at sea our ship carried a little amount of explosives\u2014and I am not talking in respect of this country. When we arrived at the place we were taking them to, we declared that we had explosives\u2014a dangerous commodity. We were totally upfront\u2014as we New Zealand First people normally are about things. We arrived at this particular port, and we declared that we had explosives on board. A little bit of panic resulted and we had to berth away from the mainstream berths. That was a genuine circumstance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EShane Ardern referred to aircraft, and I thought he made a very good point. I will not go over it. The bill allows for the result of a mishap\u2014something happening on board either an aircraft or sea craft\u2014or bad weather. Ships have to pull into all sorts of places in bad weather; I can tell members that it is sometimes pretty rugged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EFinally, it allows for craft authorised by the Chief Executive of the Customs Service, for whatever reason. I listened to Shane Ardern, and he made a very good point: can our border control officials and individuals cope with such circumstances? This bill at least provides a midway step. It compels the chief executive to consult before he or she gives an authority for a craft to berth wherever it needs to berth. The chief executive has to consult the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Ministry of Health, and the New Zealand Police. If it is an aircraft, the chief executive has to consult the Civil Aviation Authority, and if it is a sea craft, Maritime New Zealand. I think that is a step in the right direction; it recognises that other Government departments may need to be involved, and that they need to be consulted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI will stop where I began by saying that this bill is a very good bill. It is very sensible. It is tidy-up legislation, and New Zealand First supports it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the amendments recommended by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022fafa36411cd143d2905df8d0a5915bee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fafa36411cd143d2905df8d0a5915bee\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is a point of clarification. Voting on amendments is normally done in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b393f99a4a9e47c4bfbfdd3802fee3f4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. These are the amendments made by the select committee. When a select committee amends a bill and brings it back to the House, at the time of the second reading we authorise those amendments made by the select committee. That is what we are doing now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022163e1c8796524dbebbd698caa853f6a5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 112\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000071\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022644dec16a930447b90dba78a315c1198\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228891e162d67f4abcb4f1f5d94e2e2598\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022678acba2a3a946bcb6b4b3c863e1fb7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022678acba2a3a946bcb6b4b3c863e1fb7d\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to rise and speak to the clauses in Part 1 of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3). Can I at the same time touch briefly on Supplementary Order Paper 241, which we will probably be voting on in this part, as well. I note that, unlike the emissions trading legislation, where there were 785 amendments, Supplementary Order Paper 241 has just two amendments. One affects clause 2 and omits the word \u201CAugust\u201D and substitutes the word \u201COctober\u201D. Likewise, in clause 18A it omits the word \u201CAugust\u201D and substitutes the word \u201COctober\u201D. As there was pretty much universal support for the bill in the House and in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, the only conclusion we can draw is that once again we have a very tardy Government that cannot conduct the important business of the State in a timely fashion and so has to come to the Committee of the whole House in order to extend the time by which the bill will receive its Royal assent. I notice that the date\u2014October\u2014is still within the term of this Government. It is amazing that it has not actually kicked it out to December or January of next year, but it has not, and that is a good thing because this is worthy legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI will briefly touch on new section 68A, \u201CExemption for tobacco manufactured for personal use\u201D, inserted by clause 6A. Subsection (1) states that \u201CSection 68 does not apply to the manufacture of tobacco in a private house or dwelling place,\u201D which describes the piece of land, or what is known in real estate terms as the \u201Chouse and curtilage\u201D. For those who might wonder what that term means, that is the section or the land attached to or associated with what would normally be described as someone\u2019s house or dwelling place. In other words, if I were to decide to plough up 15 acres at the back of my dairy farm and put it into use for growing tobacco for my own personal use, then I would not be exempt under this section of the customs and excise legislation. My colleague Tim Groser touched on the reasons why the select committee spent so much time on that, and they are very valid, because, of course, it is the area where the Customs Service has, I guess, a jurisdiction over revenue or the control of the integrity of what should have a customs excise duty and what should not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI applaud the committee, as I said in the second reading debate, for its common-sense approach in arriving at a sensible exemption of 15 kilos of tobacco per annum. Let us see how it goes. It is one of those things we will not know until it is tried. It should not tie up Customs Service staff in needless inspection and trying to track down those who are growing a bit of tobacco for their own personal use. Like the member from New Zealand First, I was quite fascinated with the Green Party minority view on this, in which it raised concern about the exemption of 15 kilos for personal use and suggested the limit was a bit too high. I, like the member, would wonder whether, if it were another plant that was being grown for domestic consumption in a person\u2019s dwelling place or on land associated with the dwelling place, the Green Party would have had such a firm view. One can only conclude that, according to the Greens\u2019 philosophy, one type of \u201Cchop chop\u201D, if you like, is safer or less health threatening than another. Maybe one of its members will take a call and explain their logic in that. Certainly, it is not backed up by medical science, to the best of my knowledge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would also like to touch on, as I did earlier, forfeiture and seizure. I know that this was an area the Customs Service itself spent quite a bit of time agonising over, and the ability to use the chief executive\u2019s discretion in the way it is now able to be used is a sensible and pragmatic step in regard to that. I know that there are some cases\u2014and bad cases make bad law as a general approach\u2014where there have been some extreme one-off examples. It is not widespread, but there are cases where people feel as though they have not been treated fairly by the system. All of us who are constituent MPs have probably received such cases from time to time and found when we look into them that they are perhaps not as grave as those who bring them to us might have us believe. But sometimes they are, and this step potentially will help tidy up that loose end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002231863f1c1e6546c593dcc57c5dee8fbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231863f1c1e6546c593dcc57c5dee8fbd\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will focus on just a couple of aspects of Part 1, again to make a broader point. I am looking at the serious penalties provisions and the appeal procedures around those provisions. We are dealing with something that members of the Committee now understand is related to some core policy objectives\u2014that we must have at our borders a very high level of discretion about what is imported into the country and what is not, for all manner of good reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThere is a general feeling out there in our community and amongst the political parties that the New Zealand Customs Service does a particularly good job for New Zealand. That is a sentiment we often hear, and for very good reason. But it does have Draconian powers. Those powers must be exercised by often very junior officers, and they have to be exercised right there on the spot, without senior personnel necessarily there to guide the individual judgment of the young customs officer concerned. We want the Customs Service to move swiftly, expeditiously, and, in some ways, almost brutally when it has reason to be concerned that something being brought into our country will endanger the interests of our citizenry. The other side of this is that when we give people\u2014particularly, at times, younger people\u2014Draconian powers of the State, we have to be very careful about the appeal process. This bill is extremely sound in terms of getting the balance right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have a situation where a whole-of-Government approach, which is exercised by as many as 15 different Government agencies, is exercised by one agency, the chief executive of the Customs Service and his or her officers, and quite deliberately written into Part 1 of the bill are procedures that do not require a consultation process. That is quite deliberate. It is not normal that we get up as politicians and praise the lack of consultation. We are trying to get very swift and expeditious action on something that really matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EEqually, because of the danger of decisions being made that, when we have the fullness of time to look over the facts, were perhaps marginal line calls, there is a very simple appeal process. It does not cost anybody any money to ask for a review of forfeited goods. That is made very clear. I do not have the exact clause in front of me, but I remember extremely precisely the provision dealing with it, even if I cannot find the number. The chief executive has wide discretion to make a quick decision, and this flows out of the Law Commission\u2019s report suggesting we need streamlined procedure. In respect of new section 231, \u201CApplications to review seizure of goods\u201D, inserted by clause 13, a New Zealander can apply to a single agency. There is no cost. It is a very simple process, and the chief executive has a wide discretionary power to review the circumstances. For example, the applicant must state the grounds on which the review appeal is being made, and so on and so forth, and there is an appellant process above that, if things go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI do not want to introduce a discordant note into this debate, but I cannot recall many other instances in the life of this Government of people simplifying the bureaucracy and the administration. If the Minister wants to take a call on this part, we should give credit where credit is due, but ask at the same time why the Minister was unable to persuade colleagues that a whole host of other important matters should not go down the same track of streamlining the bureaucracy, lowering compliance costs for citizens who have to deal with the armed and other powers of the State, and giving a better result, all told.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI think there is a very good new process involved in something that is quite important and can give rise to a lot of upset on the part of citizens stopped at airports and ports. I imagine many people feel nothing short of outrage when they are asked to justify why they are bringing this or that into the country, so it is a delicate matter and always, no doubt, very difficult for our front-line customs officers to deal with on a personal level. We all know that they need strong backing from members of this House for the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002280338f570f35434396ae2f29ca840e0a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9208611d149452caf00a940dadce23d\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments and transitional provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022218c0c0e169149058590e6d9aa61674b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022218c0c0e169149058590e6d9aa61674b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate on this part includes the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 241.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2bea27ec5214aacbfd4b3b2eb930f1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2bea27ec5214aacbfd4b3b2eb930f1c\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that that last vote was absolutely astonishing. Here we have very good legislation\u2014and Part 2 is very good\u2014and two parties are railing against common-sense and excellent legislation, without explanation. The only conclusion one can draw in the case of ACT, perhaps, is that it does not want there to be any limit on the amount of tobacco that can be grown for personal consumption, because that in some way rails against freedom. I say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, that there is no other logical explanation, and I am sure he is as confused as I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EPart 2 amends three or four pieces of legislation. The first is the Protected Objects Act 1975, the second is the Misuse of Drugs (Prohibition of Cannabis Utensils and Methamphetamine Utensils) Notice, and the third is the United Nations (Iraq) Reconstruction Regulations. There are also some transitional provisions set out on clause 18A\u2014the reason being that if one thinks about the life cycle of a tobacco plant, one cannot arbitrarily draw a line in the sand and say these regulations are being brought in and will apply from today, when people may have moved under the old regulations. The regulations will apply to the growing of tobacco from 30 June 2009.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EPeople may find some astonishment in the fact that the United Nations (Iraq) Reconstruction Regulations of 2003 needed to be amended. I certainly did, so I got a copy of the relevant statute, just to get a handle on what was being discussed here. These regulations were designed to enable the Government to control the activities of our soldiers and our troops in Iraq, and other officials that may be there. This legislation has been put in place particularly to protect Iraq\u2019s cultural property and to make sure that if elements of Iraq\u2019s heritage are pirated and brought back to New Zealand, if people were to get involved in the trading of petroleum or gas products, or if people were caught looting Iraqi Government assets, then these matters could be dealt with under New Zealand law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBecause of that, and because, under this legislation, we are giving the Customs Service the opportunity to follow a more pragmatic regime in respect of the forfeiture and seizure of items under the Act, we are having to modify the United Nations Iraq Reconstruction Regulations in two ways. Regulation 12(1) makes it clear that the Customs Service is authorised by this change to act using its own common sense in regard to all goods that are prohibited in New Zealand. Also, the bill amends regulation 12(2) to take into account something that may have been imported into New Zealand and then re-exported, and to authorise the Customs Service to become involved in the transaction and to operate. So it is quite important to realise that when we change one piece of law here it can have unintended consequences in other pieces of law. I think that our officials have done a very good job in trawling through quite obscure legislation to make these transitional arrangements work in historic legislation passed in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe second part of the legislation applies to modifying section 10 of the Protected Objects Act of 1975\u2014legislation that has been modified on many occasions. This part of the bill relates to the return of unlawfully exported protected foreign items. We are changing this legislation so that the Customs Service management can intercede and make some common-sense decisions about how issues should be addressed if, for example, we were to find that some Buddhist or Islamic treasures had been found in Iraq and brought back to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWith those few words, I will just say that we on this side of the Chamber are fully supportive of Part 2 of the bill and will vote accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 241 in the name of the Hon Nanaia Mahuta to be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e28524bdad84041ad04d5994ad7b63e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000093\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c915cc2e7e614a4491af55cfca5531c2\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00229fca2b135f4d4844b45968a301cdbad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fca2b135f4d4844b45968a301cdbad6\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E As I said earlier on, the amendment in Supplementary Order Paper 241 is one that really draws a contrast between the legislation that we are discussing here today, which has pretty much widespread support in the Committee\u2014we thought unanimous at one stage, but we have since discovered that that is not the case\u2014and the excellent work done in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee reporting back on time, and this Supplementary Order Paper before us, which changes the date simply because this Government could not do the important business of the day. In other words, it is a Government that was too preoccupied with all sorts of social interference instead of getting on with the core business of government, which is customs and excise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister that the Customs Service is the oldest Government department there is. He has probably not heard of it\u2014although he probably has, because I am sure it will have detained him at the border on one or two occasions, so I am sure he has run across customs before today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere we are in the Chamber today, still locked into Tuesday, which is an interesting concept is it not? This is the third 2nd of September that I have debated in the Chamber this week, even though everybody else has caught up to Friday, debating a Supplementary Order Paper that would not have been necessary, of course, if the Government had actually got on with the business of the House at the time it should have, instead of wasting so much time on things such as trying to enforce on local bodies social interference like \u201Cyou must\u201D, \u201Cyou must not\u201D, \u201Ccould\u201D, \u201Ccould not\u201D, \u201Cwill\u201D or \u201Cif you wish\u201D provide social housing. So it is, I guess, somewhat ironic that we are now debating a Supplementary Order Paper that omits the word \u201CAugust\u201D in clause 2 and substitutes the word \u201COctober\u201D, and in clause 18A omits the word \u201CAugust\u201D and substitutes the word \u201COctober\u201D. It is quite ironic; it does demonstrate that this Government is tired, and I think we should go to the polls and have an election to see what the folk of New Zealand think about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022c953ba51a7aa43d7bc86397297a97fbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c953ba51a7aa43d7bc86397297a97fbb\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I tell Mr Ardern that I am into that; let us bring it on! I do not think the date can be very long away. I say to him that comment was probably not appropriate, given that we are speaking in sweet harmony on the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), but it is nevertheless a sentiment I strongly share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWhen we look at this bill we see it does a number of things that are of central importance to New Zealanders. We all understand that sometimes our geographic isolation is a fundamental problem and at other times it is a huge advantage to us. We do have certain advantages in our isolation. We rely on the front-line officers of our Customs Service to secure our borders, and they do a fantastic job. There is widespread recognition of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI talked earlier about one of the many policy objectives related to this bill. Behind this bill is health policy. The need to move comprehensively against smoking is absolutely understood, and there is huge, positive evidence that the higher the price is, the lower the consumption is. But as the evidence indicates, as soon as one moves in that direction there is a serious danger of creating an incentive for organised crime. As I indicated in speeches during earlier stages of the bill, cigarette smuggling is a massive problem internationally. I recall that in the United Kingdom it was estimated to be a larger source of criminal funding than narcotics, believe it or not, and there are massive issues of law and order enforcement in many countries around this issue. Of course, ultimately, the point about terrorism is not some academic point. We recall that the bombers of the World Trade Center had counterfeit cigarette excise stamps in their apartment when the federal authorities broke into them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThere are big issues here. We have cleaned up our act here. I think we had a pretty reasonable regime, but there were certain things that the Customs Service and our authorities wanted to move on, and they persuaded the Government and then the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to move on them. We have expedited procedures that allow the chief executive of the Customs Service, acting on behalf of a wide range of Government agencies, to take very swift action. But of course, since the powers that customs officers have are Draconian, involving the seizure of people and property, there have to be civil liberties checks in place. I think there is an excellent new regime for the forfeiture of goods. It is very simple, and operates at zero cost\u2014just the cost of a stamp to send the request for a review to the chief executive. I think we have a very nice example\u2014and I just wish that we could see more examples of this type\u2014of the simplification of procedure being introduced into legislation. I think this country would be a better place for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThere is wide-ranging support for this bill. It achieves a number of objectives, and I think it will facilitate the work of our front-line staff. It has very strong support in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00220b180f95ad684af09661131c3d6a72ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b180f95ad684af09661131c3d6a72ab\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just reflecting on the vote that was recorded for Part 1, I wonder whether I could seek clarification that the vote cast for United Future was 2 votes in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225733df6d3cf9480fb92168670a2af878\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The vote cast was 1 in favour, and therefore the member is seeking leave to amend it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b91e0188644465a86806ae9bfb3f29\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to amend the United Future vote on Part 1, to 2 votes in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d88f10b7240e4600899fa51588696c8b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Is that agreed? It has been agreed. It has also been confirmed that it was a mishearing. Let me just say that sometimes there is so much noise quite close to the Chair that we do not hear the votes if they are not called out. This vote was misheard and recorded as 1 vote in favour, but it has now been corrected and is recorded as 2 votes in favour. The vote on Part 1 is Ayes 113, Noes 6. Thank you very much for the clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022503d9db24a954b2abb9ad75ee2b61790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022503d9db24a954b2abb9ad75ee2b61790\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 1\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9cd46c75814cd987c1e80bd526dc84\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2f3cdf79a94596a94d40d3d341e317\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I had started to take the question. John, you are a bit slow but I will be very kind, and so will New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1462621291a460dbaeb8909e593b81d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1462621291a460dbaeb8909e593b81d\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I was polite, and held back because of the seeking of leave caused by the noise of some members on the floor, which did not enable the three people at the top table to hear the vote that was cast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI rise again in support of this legislation, and I would just like to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to a headline in this morning\u2019s Dominion Post: \u201CKiwis get half the pay of Aussies in same jobs\u201D. Madam Chairperson, you might ask: what is the relevance of this to the legislation before us today? It comes back to a point that I made when I spoke previously. This is common-sense legislation, and therefore National is supporting it. If we run this country in a common-sense way, with a light bureaucratic touch, we will create conditions that will enable us to keep Kiwis in New Zealand and will enable us to help increase people\u2019s pay by cutting their taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAs we think about making this country a better-run place, we want to have pragmatism. We want pragmatic Government policies in this country because we want our communities to be well governed. The first part of this legislation helps us to adopt a more pragmatic regime in respect of the forfeiture and seizure regime contained in the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe second area where we need to cut down bureaucratic overhead costs is underlined in this legislation by allowing the Customs Service management to be flexible about where it locates its staff. Clearly, it will keep most of its staff in the bigger centres where there are a lot of craft\u2014both air and sea\u2014coming and going, but it also enables the Government to operate good, friendly policies by sending staff, where it makes sense, to small locations, as I have said, like Houhora or Milford. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe third element of this legislation is that the Government has to be funded\u2014there is no question about that. Taxes have to be charged. But as a Government we must make the smallest possible impact on our communities\u2014often, as in my case in the Wairarapa, where people earn quite low incomes. When we take money from their pockets, we have an absolute obligation to make sure that that money is well spent. I am comfortable with this legislation because it will help us to do that. I hope we can do that across the whole gamut of legislation in this Parliament, not as we have seen in this last period under urgency with the emissions trading scheme, the affordable homes legislation, which will not make homes any more affordable, and the real estate agents\u2019 legislation. Those are bills about theatre, not substance. In contrast, this bill is about substance, not theatre. I absolutely think that it is important that all parties in the Chamber embrace this legislation, because it is an example of good legislation. It will help us to run this country better. It will have a smaller impact on the pockets of individuals, and provide a far more flexible way of imposing bureaucracy on our communities. I absolutely support this legislation, and again commend the Customs Service officials who have helped to prepare it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 241 in the name of the Hon Nanaia Mahuta to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022997ba50153f6416d9e49b6763f9f87fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022683ddb3bc22e432f95b1888d54ba829d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000117\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000118\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3a62032f07d40f0bf912e0d32ba6a5d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00227dcb161ee024407a82539d18cbbe7404\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dcb161ee024407a82539d18cbbe7404\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs) on behalf of the Minister of Customs:\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. This bill has been through its second reading and the Committee stage, and now has its final reading. It has received widespread support from the House because it seeks to reform the statutory review rights in the case of the forfeiture and seizure of goods under the Customs and Excise Act, it gives the Customs Service a greater flexibility to deal with ad hoc arrivals, and it gives better control over illegal operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EOne of the key decisions of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which has now been agreed to by the Committee, is to set in statute the amount of tobacco that a person can have for personal use. Rather than the amount for personal use being set by delegated legislation, it has been set at 15 kilograms. Just to put it on the record, that amount equates to, I am told by the Ministry of Health people, 58 to 103 cigarettes a day for 365 days. I am not saying that amount will now be compulsory, but one would have to say it is on the generous side. So 15 kilograms of tobacco will now be in law, once this bill has passed, as the maximum amount defined as being for personal use and that clarification will be very helpful to the Customs Service when it is dealing with these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00220d7ebb93d7d54981a2811cdacc12fb58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d7ebb93d7d54981a2811cdacc12fb58\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Like the Minister, I, on behalf of National, also support the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) in the third reading. As the Minister has just said, the bill basically tidies up three areas of the Customs and Excise Act: forfeiture and seizure, provision of greater flexibility for customs with ad hoc arrivals, and a remedy to legislate for inconsistencies relating to illegal manufacture of tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI will touch on the forfeiture and seizure part of the legislation for a start because I have a real and practical example of how the legislation, as it was before the amendments, could get the Customs Service bound up in something it did not really want to be involved with, and there were some innocent victims in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIn Taranaki the Taranaki Rescue Helicopter Trust, which of course is publicly funded and privately funded from fund-raising activity for health services in that region, bought some night-vision goggles about 6 or 8 months ago\u2014in fact it is longer ago than that; it is more like 12 months ago. The goggles were about to be delivered to the rescue helicopter service when they were found to have been stolen in the US by a US military person. Of course, the Customs Service did what it must do and seized those goods with the intention of holding them until the legal position was established or tidied up, and that went on for a long time. The Taranaki Rescue Helicopter Trust had bought the goggles in good faith off a New Zealand person who traded in this stuff and who had no idea they were stolen in the US. Finally, through negotiation and after some time, the trader of this equipment, as I understand it, was able to resolve the legal status in the United States. That status was that the military was paid for the goods, or they came to some arrangement\u2014I am not sure of the detail\u2014but because of the legislation in New Zealand, the Customs Service was still unable, as I understand it, to make a speedy or timely decision to have these goggles released to the rescue helicopter. Of course, the helicopter trust had spent something like $40,000 or better on purchasing this equipment and it was out of pocket and did not have the equipment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIf the Chief Executive of the Customs Service had the powers that he or she will have, then a common-sense decision or intervention at that level potentially would have overcome this problem. That is a practical example of one case where there were no guilty parties except for, obviously, the person who stole the equipment from the US military in the United States in the first instance and who was subsequently proven to have stolen it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAd hoc arrivals have been of concern for a while. I think someone in the Committee stage of the bill touched on the fact that people arrive here by all sorts of craft\u2014by pleasure craft, by aircraft in big numbers, and suchlike. The discretion to say that the beach at \u014Cpunake\u2014or it might be Raglan, or K\u0101whia, or somewhere else in the great Taranaki-King Country electorate\u2014can be a customs place for the purpose of the arrival of a pleasure craft is at times a useful and necessary requirement. As I said in the second reading, the only concern I have is whether we will be able to meet the stringent requirements that we must meet regarding biosecurity, otherwise we are liable to open our borders to further risk. I am confident that concern will be able to be met, but we will have to watch and see. I suspect that, at some stage in the future, there will be further debate in this regard in this Parliament. Maybe some amendments or some further resourcing will be required to meet that concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe final point covered in the bill is the control for the exemption of personal tobacco. I now know, as a result of the good work done in the select committee, that it is known as \u201Cchop chop\u201D. Plenty of people have suggested that I should chop-chop and get moving a bit, and sometimes when we listen to debates in the House we could certainly come to the conclusion that members should chop-chop and move on. But tobacco is referred to colloquially as \u201Cchop chop\u201D and the reality is that the select committee has done a good job, no doubt ably assisted by the officials, who clearly have done a good job in helping the Minister draft this legislation to submit to the House and the select committee in the first instance. They have done a good job, a practical job, and a pragmatic job in coming up with a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI note that the original proposal was for 8 kilograms of tobacco to be exempt. The select committee has extended that to 15 kilograms. The Labour Party put in a minority report and one can only conclude that it was clearly not happy with 8 kilograms. Ministers obviously wanted a higher volume than that, but I know my colleagues on the select committee\u2014the anti-smokers that they are\u2014probably would not have been supporters of that. But in any event, the end result is that the figure is now 15 kilograms and that seems like a pretty practical solution. It is one that will not tie up the customs staff and officials in needless trivial pursuit\u2014as someone described it, and I thought it was a very good description\u2014out there trying to find out if someone has grown a kilogram or two or four or half a kilogram more than he or she was legally allowed to. Fifteen kilograms should cover the domestic needs of even the heaviest smoker in society. Potentially, if a person smokes 15 kilograms of tobacco annually, that person will not be around for that long to breach customs laws in the future, according to medical science. I think it was probably the right figure to arrive at, and it is a pragmatic decision. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00220f9c6368bab0454c9b407c92aad09151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f9c6368bab0454c9b407c92aad09151\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I would certainly like to take a long call on the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), and I know that the Leader of the House would support my doing that, but I am not going to; I am going to be quite concise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee consideration of the bill was very interesting. There was a bit of to-ing and fro-ing with regard to the tobacco exemption, and what we have come up with is a compromise, which is, obviously, accepted. There are some serious health problems around tobacco consumption. I acknowledge the point Mr Ardern made that people who push the limit of the exemption for personal consumption over a few years would not be around for long to enjoy it! Dare I say it, that is a point I note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe bill tightens up a few things. It amends the Customs and Excise Act in relation to appeal and review rights under the statutory forfeiture and seizure regime, ad hoc arrivals and departures, and the illegal manufacture of tobacco\u2014which has been talked about. I thank the select committee and the officials for their work. This legislation is a good step in the right direction and tidies up what have been a few anomalies in the past. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed97bc3e263f41d49ef1476690bda044\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed97bc3e263f41d49ef1476690bda044\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I still have not quite got used to the idea of getting up in rapid succession and making essentially the same points. It is an added problem, of course, when one does it under urgency, as there is not even the grace of time to separate the points. Nevertheless, it is part of our duty, and I will discharge it, but in a very brief and expeditious way. The key point is that the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) is first-class legislation and a first-class example of cooperation among political parties at the select committee process. Frankly, that is a rare jewel and we should celebrate it. We should celebrate it because if we could adopt the same common-sense and practical approach across other areas of policy, I am sure we would still find room for the political contest to proceed, but I think the country would be better for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have something that involves Draconian powers of the State. They have to be exercised by customs officers on behalf of, I think, 15 agencies. They perform vital functions in keeping our society as safe as they can. But equally there have to be very strong controls over the appeal process, over the rights of citizens to challenge the forfeiture of goods, and so on and so forth. But the point that particularly impressed me about the common-sense approach to lawmaking relates to the personal exemption issue of home-grown tobacco. It is such an important point for lawmakers to bear in mind that our front-line police and our front-line officials in other areas of enforcement will always be very thinly stretched. We know that. We know how much better it is if they focus on the real problem rather than, frankly, wasting their time with minor or technical infringements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThere was a huge debate on the 15 kilogram limit. My recollection was that the difference of view between Labour and National was actually not so much over the limit, as such, but simply over whether it should be enshrined in legislation or left open to the officials to change the regulations. As members know, National has a view that that is generally the wrong approach. We like Parliament to set clear laws and stick to them, and if they have to be changed they should come back through the parliamentary process. I do not believe that there was a fundamental difference between the two parties on the underlying philosophy of setting the limit relatively high\u2014at 15 kilograms, which is the same as Canada\u2014precisely to ensure that the thin blue line is actually focused on the real problem. The real problem here, because of the literally millions of dollars that one can make from selling illegal cigarettes on which excise tax has not been paid, is the link to organised crime, and in other countries\u2014I am unaware of this being an issue in New Zealand\u2014the link to terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo there are big issues behind this legislation. It is a nice simple law and there are nice procedures for the chief executive to move expeditiously without needing to consult a dozen different departments, and somebody like me, who has been in the system, knows how much this consultation costs. Everyone says yes to consultation without thinking about the costs of consultation. When one often needs officials to act on their hunches, on their instincts, and sometimes, of course, on intelligence that will never be all that accurate\u2014it is never all that clear, I am sure, to some of our people on the front line just how solid the intelligence is that they are operating on\u2014one has to give them wide powers to move brutally and quickly to deal with the problem. Yes, there will be mistakes. We have a procedure in place giving responsibility to the chief executive of the Customs Service, and no doubt he or she will use delegated powers to handle that responsibility in a sensible and pragmatic way to look at the overall facts when there are mistakes or the public thinks it has been badly treated. It is good legislation, and the House should be very pleased to see it pass into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00225090596f26944e6f9e599b1afea49950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225090596f26944e6f9e599b1afea49950\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I say to Tim Groser\u2014I know he is relatively new; he has been here for only a couple of years\u2014that there is no law that says members have to say the same thing twice. One does not have to get up in the first reading and then say exactly the same thing in the third reading. I thought he might be interested to know that. I say to the next National Party member to take a call that there is actually no law that members have to take 10 minutes on a bill such as the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3). It is straightforward, it is nice, it is tidy, and it has gone through this House with a very significant majority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe only concern I have with this bill is that the M\u0101ori Party has put it on record that it is opposed to it\u2014it has opposed just about every part of the bill\u2014yet the M\u0101ori Party members have not taken a call as yet to explain why. I think there is a responsibility on all MPs that if they are opposing something and insist on having that put on the record, they should at least stand in this House and say why. There is no problem with New Zealand First. We are totally in support of this bill. I hope the M\u0101ori Party takes a call and explains its position. I think it owes it to the House and it owes it to listeners out there who might be listening or watching on TV. New Zealand First supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00220f0c64c176e548f480ee9ebd80c86b93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f0c64c176e548f480ee9ebd80c86b93\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E The Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) is about border control. A good bit of my electorate covers the borders of this country. It stretches from Turakirae Head across on the other side of Wellington Harbour, almost up to Cape Kidnappers. It is very important for the people in my electorate that we have good, sound border control, and it is very important for the well-being of the people in my electorate that we have good, common-sense Government. If we do not, New Zealand is left with a choice of becoming either a retirement village or an educational institution for other countries. More than 80,000 people a year leave this country because of bad governance, because taxes are too high, and because wages are not high enough\u2014as reinforced in this morning\u2019s Dominion Post by the headline \u201CKiwis get half the pay of Aussies in same jobs\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThat is why I support this legislation. It is good legislation. It is not the theatre of the emissions trading legislation, it is not the theatre of the Real Estate Agents Bill, and it is not the theatre of the legislation that we were discussing this morning, the Affordable Housing: Enabling Territorial Authorities Bill, which the Government pretends will provide affordable homes to people in my electorate. That will not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt is really interesting what one can learn when one trawls through the impact of this bill on other legislation. In particular, I have some comments that I would like to point in the direction of my colleague from New Zealand First Peter Brown. I draw his attention to sections 10A and 10B of the Protected Objects Act 1975. They are about the importation of protected foreign objects. One is not allowed to bring them into the country. This is the point: if a protected foreign object is in this country, a foreign Government has 3 years from the time it knew about it to instigate court proceedings to reclaim that item, or 50 years from the date that it was brought into this country. I make that point because I think we need to revisit the issues around our own electoral funding arrangements. Where political parties try to mislead the public of this country, a law that gives only 6 months for them to be fined for their actions is patently not strong enough. I think the next Parliament needs to come back and look at the Protected Objects Act, and work out how we can have laws in this country that protect the integrity of our electoral process and the funding thereof\u2014something that we have not seen recently in the case of our colleagues in New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EComing back to the legislation before us this morning, I would really like to reinforce the point that we need to put far more effort into improving our legislation across the board. Only by having good legislation and good governance in this community will we keep people in this country. From the perspective of people in the Wairarapa, where I live, I think the first thing our people want to see is reduced taxes. That also applies to excise tax, because our winegrowers around Martinborough, Bideford, Matahiwi Valley, and north into Hawke\u2019s Bay are paying far too much excise tax, which is targeted to the inflation rate. In years of low production\u2014and we have had a couple of bad droughts\u2014it puts a huge imposition on our winegrowers. When I see that happening, and when I think about it in the context of the excise tax on tobacco that we are collecting through the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), I think there is room for tidying up our act on behalf of our winegrowers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe need to reduce the quantity of Government intrusion into the lives of people every day. This legislation will do that. At one level, we are doing it by allowing the Comptroller of Customs to make sensible decisions about the disposition of the service\u2019s resources in order to quickly protect our border. On the other hand, we are also being very straightforward in putting into this legislation the penalties that will apply to people who infringe the law. As I pointed out in the House earlier today, that approach does not apply to our alcohol legislation, where penalties can be fixed very quickly by bureaucratic fiat. That has to be stopped. Our next Parliament needs to tidy up the legislation in terms of the penalties that apply to people who infringe our law as it applies to alcohol. We must get rid of the nanny State, because if we do not, we will find that people will continue to vote with their feet, as they have been doing. I think this legislation is a very good example of how we can do something sensibly. We need to apply this model to many other sections of our legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWith those comments, I thank my colleagues on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for the way that this legislation was considered and put together. I also thank the officials, who did a very good job in answering the many questions that our select committee raised in our consideration of this legislation. I commend the bill not only to the House but to the people of New Zealand as an excellent example of good law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00220ee6f1e929e64e209188d9d793c291c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ee6f1e929e64e209188d9d793c291c6\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is supporting the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3). We were actively engaged in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2019s consideration of all the various matters, including the personal exemption limit for home-grown tobacco. We heard quite detailed submissions from the Customs Service that an 8-kilogram limit would be the most appropriate. Unfortunately, the majority of the committee went with 15 kilograms, but we think an 8-kilogram limit would have led, perhaps, to less abuse and trading, and more of a reality of home-grown production being only for personal use. We are disappointed with that 15-kilogram provision, but as for the rest of the bill, we are satisfied that it does improve the ability of the Customs Service to clamp down on the illegal importation and trading of tobacco, which is a harmful drug. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc26b05f261248f19b780b738d0c88d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc26b05f261248f19b780b738d0c88d8\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, i t\u0113nei ata. There is always a risk that, with the rush of urgency, some minor technical amendments will slip under the radar, as it were\u2014and that has wide-ranging repercussions. We have seen this in the last 24 hours with the reaction from employers about the changes made regarding KiwiSaver and the Employment Relations (Breaks and Infant Feeding) Amendment Bill. Employers are saying that the amendments to the Employment Relations Act introduced yesterday represent a major change to employment law, which means they will now have to review their pay arrangements to ensure they are not in breach of the law, and potentially exposed to a personal grievance claim from one of their staff members. We need to be far more careful when the bill under examination has received, as in this case, only one submission at the select committee hearing. So, with all these warnings in place, we have examined carefully the potential impact that the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) could have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs far as the M\u0101ori Party is concerned, the bill makes a number of amendments to the Customs and Excise Act 1996 to enhance the statutory appeal and review rights in relation to the forfeit and seizure regime. A particular issue of interest to us in the M\u0101ori Party in the examination of this bill was the personal use exemption on the growth and manufacture of tobacco. The amendments in this bill will give customs better control over the illegal tobacco manufacturing operations, and that is all good. However, the bigger picture is one of banning the sale, manufacture, and importation of cigarettes so that there is no industry or Government incentive for smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has stood strong in its vision to end the sale of cigarettes and smoking tobacco. We say that vision without action is but a dream, and in our case it is more like a nightmare. Smoking kills one in three M\u0101ori, for goodness\u2019 sake. Why the heck would we support a bill that kills M\u0101ori? Is this first-class legislation? I do not think so. Perhaps the Minister should have broken up the bill a little in order to separate out the part in respect of the issues we are raising at the moment. The tyranny of tobacco over the lives of tangata whenua has a long history in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd10d1e56cda4794a14ef8e412772b7b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: The tyranny of tobacco!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5c29ab4a0c5420f8681b459d86a1c31\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Tau Henare knows about this as he used to be a smoker. Any knowledgable historian will point out that tobacco was gifted from P\u0101keh\u0101 settlers as a tradable commodity to purchase food and land. We are told that some of our t\u016Bpuna rangatira who signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi were treated to tobacco. The archives are bursting with picture cards and postcards of our men, women, and, to our horror, even our children, being shot\u2014with a camera, I had better add\u2014with a cigarette in their hand. I was also shocked recently to find that during the passage of defending the nation in war that M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 were routinely allocated cigarettes and tobacco along with their food rations. So does the Crown bear any responsibility to take action to end sales of cigarettes and smoking tobacco? Hell, yeah, of course it should. A ban on cigarette sales would save 4,000 lives and $22 billion annually. [Interruption] That is why Tau Henare finished smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOf course, we welcome the graphic health warnings that now appear on all tobacco products. If anyone could be persuaded to give up, surely one would think that the prospect of ending up with gangrenous toes, diseased lungs, smoking, damaged hearts, rotting teeth, big pukus, and damaged gums must have some\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb4a0fff3674727b2aabc956e6de211\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Smoking gives you a big puku? How long have you been smoking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40eae81e88f44b1958d52a3fc27f551\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: The member should ask himself. Although it is early days yet in the course of the campaign to get rid of smoking, we are mindful that the number of cigarettes available for sale has not changed in 3 years. In fact, even worse, the number of cigarettes available for sale has actually risen 2.8 percent over the previous year. And, here is the horror statistic\u2014the number of cigarettes available for sale has risen an astronomical 83.3 percent since 1985. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe say that it is a weak excuse to say that these figures are rising just because there are more outlets for sale. The figures are rising because cigarettes are being sold and cigarettes are being smoked. The other issue to bear in mind is that although the officials tell us that smoking rates have been steadily decreasing, the importation and sale of cigarettes is actually increasing. So the tobacco industry remains rich. In effect, then, the proportion of smokers is not decreasing as the population grows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EDoes this bill do much to address the bigger picture? From our perspective, no, it does not. We see a new clause that was recommended by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee so that the personal use exemption being introduced by the bill is now part of primary and not delegated legislation. This means that rather than illegal tobacco manufacture coming under the stronger regulation-making powers that were originally suggested, there is less flexibility to be able to control the black market tobacco trade. Putting the personal use exemption into this bill is, as the Labour minority report itself acknowledged, inconsistent with the other control arrangements. We believe, with Labour, that the stronger regulation-making powers are more effective in controlling the illegal tobacco trade. The flexibility and speed with which delegated legislation can be amended is, we believe, likely to be more effective in addressing the growth of the tobacco industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe should not be, we say, fiddling around passing laws that allow the Government and industry to collect revenue from tobacco, when the bigger picture of tobacco use and abuse is still prevalent. If there is one thing that really put the nail in the coffin of this bill, it was the very fact that the only submission received was the support of British American Tobacco New Zealand Ltd. The company supported the bill, particularly in respect of amending the Customs and Excise Act 1996 in relation to the illegal manufacture of tobacco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ELet me make it clear that all this bill will really do is to ensure that Governments get their excise duty payments. Over the 11-month period to May 2008 the Government received an incredible $775 million in customs tax on tobacco, and there is a forecast of $144 million in tobacco excise duty over the year to June 2008. Although the Government is happily receiving the princely sum of $919 million, there is another group of figures I want to leave with this House. This morning I was presented with a table of figures showing the prevalence of cigarette smoking by New Zealanders 15 years and over, from 1996 to 2005. Although there has been a decline in the all-out-high of 58 percent in 1996, the results for M\u0101ori have been consistently alarming. Over the last two decades the number of M\u0101ori smokers over 15 years of age has hovered steadily on, or around, the 50 percent mark\u201450 percent for goodness\u2019 sake! These figures provide a compelling reason to do everything we can to stem the tobacco tidal wave that our people are submerged under, and for that reason we will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u00228bc0463c53884ce0a307d94f6bea907a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bc0463c53884ce0a307d94f6bea907a\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table an excerpt from this morning\u2019s Dominion Post headed \u201CKiwis get half the pay of Aussies in same jobs\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2bdf6b5b65f4e2abfebd912af5b4234\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave to table. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002252aaaafd11554f798c8f5d562bf224ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e216683e35bb4ef88acf52a1019b4ccf\u0022\u003ECompanies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264d25a25abe84222b889c11dfb30e936\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022531021b64437477c8976064c96d6d6d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022531021b64437477c8976064c96d6d6d5\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the Commerce Committee\u2019s report on the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill and that the bill be now read a second time. The objective of the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill is to make technical amendments to the minority buy-out provisions in the Companies Act 1993 to ensure that they function efficiently, cost-effectively, and appropriately. The minority buy-out provisions provide an exit regime for shareholders of companies who have unsuccessfully opposed certain types of fundamental changes to the structure or operations of the company by virtue of a special resolution. The regime then entitles them to have their shares purchased by the company at an appraised price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe rationale behind these provisions is that if the company\u2019s structure or operations change significantly after the shareholder enters the company, the shareholder should be entitled to decide to exit the company but also be afforded some specific protection against financial loss by reason of the decision to leave the company. The provisions have been amended largely in accordance with the recommendations made in the Law Commission report on minority buy-outs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe Law Commission commenced a review of the minority buy-out provisions after Justice Doogue criticised the provisions in Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Ltd v Infratil 1998 Ltd, stating that the existing regime was lacking in information for shareholders, particularly as to valuation, method, and date. This bill addresses those concerns. Since the first reading of the bill the Commerce Committee has recommended a number of amendments to strengthen the bill, which, I am sure, will help it achieve its objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI conclude by thanking the officials, and members of the Commerce Committee, for their work in considering the bill, and acknowledging the contributions of those who provided submissions on the bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1ef7832366a4930ba54a2ef35ea0f48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1ef7832366a4930ba54a2ef35ea0f48\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill is one of those interesting bills on which, when they come before the Commerce Committee, there is genuine interest on the part of all members to ensure that we get good and workable legislation. In this case we are talking about the rights of individuals who purchase interests in various entities, only to find that a bigger parcel of shares than theirs is taken up by someone else, or that there is a proposal to buy out those individuals by someone else, not always at a price that might be in the best interests of those individuals. It is not uncommon for a price to be struck for a buy-out that is ahead of the market, but not necessarily ahead of the expectations of some of the smaller shareholders in the particular company. As the Minister said, when people make a decision that a new arrangement inside a company they had previously been confident about investing in comes to the fore, then people should a right to exit\u2014indeed, to test the strength of whoever has bought the company and of the new philosophy that may, presumably, come with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe committee has made a number of recommendations for amendments to the bill, and we will discuss those further in the Committee stage. The bill is fairly technical in nature, but, as everyone knows, it is the fine print that always ends up costing us. So if we were to typify this bill, we would typify it as being a bill that puts some rules around the effect of the fine print. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we are a little uncertain about is the involvement of the Arbitration Act, or bringing in the Arbitration Act as the vehicle for sorting out disputes between, I guess, an offered value and the value that someone would like for their shares. Those sorts of provisions can be very costly, and it is a little unclear exactly who would meet the costs of that arbitration process. I do not believe that is specified in the bill, so the Minister may wish to take us through that when we go through the Committee stage. That may be an oversight. If in fact there is a right to arbitration and a right to a price that reflects the best value of those shares, I think the question should be asked and answered in the bill as to how the cost of dealing with the arbitration is to be met, because it can be quite expensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe provision of interest on, I guess, unpaid moneys owing after a price is struck is a very positive contribution in this bill, and, once again, that matter is covered in a new clause in the bill. We will discuss that further during the Committee stage, so that the Hansard record is clear about what the select committee believed it was doing as this law was being put into place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe also recommended amending new section 112C, inserted by clause 7 of the bill, to provide that legal title to shares passes to a company on notification of the company\u2019s decision to purchase the shares. The relevance of that is that if in fact a board accepts a proposal, and the purchaser indicates that it has accepted it, the potential exists for it to be quite some time before a settlement is reached\u2014or is concluded, which is perhaps a better way to describe it. None the less, to all intents and purposes the owner of those shares, once this bill is passed, will in fact be the purchasing entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt has been a very interesting exercise to consider all the various contortions of minority buy-out rights inside competition law, and I think this bill goes a very long way towards trying to make clear some of the things that have been matters of confusion for players in the commercial world. We look forward to the coming debate in the Committee stage. The bill is relatively short, but it is very, very important. As I said before, most people find that the devil is in the detail, and that it is the fine print that trips us up. So we expect that the Committee stage today will traverse all aspects of the provisions of the bill, in order to ensure it is abundantly clear exactly what it is all about. It is interesting, though, that the bill is in only two parts, and we do notice over a period of time that when important bills are debated just part by part, there is not a lot of time to consider all of the clauses in them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EHowever, I am sure that by the end of the day this bill will probably be law or, I should say, ready for the Royal assent. Subject to being satisfied with the answers to our questions in the Committee stage, I say we will continue to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002227c687a450e84d849becbc47f0196121\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227c687a450e84d849becbc47f0196121\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E On one view of it, the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill might not be considered interesting, but it affects a very substantive change to the law. All tributes go to the honourable Minister, Lianne Dalziel, who at all times has kept an open mind on the merit of this legislation, and who has been prepared to make change where there was a warrant for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThese changes being made by this legislation are to the Companies Act 1993, which of course is a code that deals with a whole lot of aspects of corporate activity in New Zealand. The Act constitutes a code, if you like, for those activities that are very much at the heartland of New Zealand business. The provisions relating to minority buy-out rights are contained in sections 110 to 115, so the provisions are not very extensive but they raise essential issues of equity. The argument is really simple: if the goalposts are moved, despite the shareholder\u2019s opposition, he or she is entitled to decide that he or she no longer wishes to be a player, and to also be protected from losing financially by reason of a decision to leave the field. I think it is worthwhile citing a comment made by Alexander Khutorsky, who is well known in this area of corporate law, for what he said about the intended functioning of buy-out provisions. In a merger context he said this: \u201CIn theory the existence of appraisal statutes has a two-pronged effect on merger transactions. First, the appraisal remedy is supposed to guarantee that dissenting shareholders get a fair price for their equity stakes. This prong of the appraisal statute is embodied by a procedural scheme whose end result is a judicial valuation of the minority stake in the target, with attendant money damages where appropriate. Perhaps more important than the actual exercise of the remedy is the ex ante effect which the mere existence of the remedy is supposed to produce. This second prong works by inhibiting the incentives of majority owners to act strategically by providing for the possibility of a threat of litigation and uncertain damages awards. The corporate planner\u2019s assumed preference for certainty, coupled with potential cash-flow constraints in meeting potentially sizeable judicial awards, should encourage the planner-majority owner to offer fair consideration in freeze-out transactions.\u201D That is quite turgidly but thoughtfully worded. It is a simple enough concept: a person is a shareholder in a company, the other shareholders do something that the person does not like, so what are the rights of that person? So we see in this bill the setting up of a code\u2014the amendments to and filling out of provisions in the existing law\u2014that gives rights to the shareholder who wants to get out. In money terms, that is the way in which those rights have been exercised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is a history in all of this, of course, and in fact it is quite a long history. But what prompted the Government to move\u2014actually, to move quite slowly\u2014was a case called Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Limited v Infratil 1998 Ltd. The judge in that case, which is a trigger for all these changes being made today as this bill progresses, started off by saying \u201CTo the best of the knowledge of the parties, this is the first time that the minority buy-out rights sections have come before the court.\u201D, and \u201CIt is common ground that the minority buy-out rights sections are defective. Although they provide for the company to nominate a fair and reasonable price for the shares to be acquired, they do not state at what date that price is to be ascertained. Nor do the sections make any provision for the company, in nominating the fair and reasonable price, to give any information to the minority shareholder of the basis of the valuation. Nor do the sections provide any mechanism for the completion of transactions falling within them. As already noted, s 112(4) is silent as to the basis upon which the shares at issue are to be dealt with and the time when the company is required to pay the provisional price. Nor has the arbitrator power to make orders in respect of the completion of the transaction following the arbitration. Having created minority buy-out rights, the Act fails to provide for important features of the transactions that can arise under them. In the context of the Act as a whole and its history, that is understandable. However, here there is a relatively substantial sum of money involved. In other cases there could be a substantial number of shareholders involved. While the Law Commission and the legislature may have been wise to avoid the complexity of some of the North American legislation, it would seem essential that, if the minority buy-out rights sections are to be effective, they should be urgently reconsidered.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAgainst the background of those comments, the Law Commission looked at this issue. It came up with a report; it suggested draft legislation. Parliamentary Counsel had a look at that legislation, and made some changes. The Commerce Committee made some further changes. But these are the sorts of issues that arise: should notice be given of the availability of the buy-out rights, along with notice of the special resolution sought to be passed? Should the company be required to give particulars of the basis on which its offer is being calculated? Should the statute specify the date at which the shares are to be valued, or otherwise dictate the basis of valuation? Should the shareholder be required to convey title to the shares\u2014Mr Brownlee alluded to this issue\u2014at the same time that the shareholder has paid the price calculated by the company on the basis of the value as initially assessed by it? Should the legislation spell out broader powers that authorise the arbitrator to award compensation for costs and delay? And should the arbitrator have the power to make ancillary enforcement orders? This legislation that is before us today actually covers all those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the time I have remaining, it is interesting for me to look briefly around the world to see how other countries, and other jurisdictions, have dealt with this issue. Delaware, in the United States, which I guess would be recognised as the state in the United States that has the most company registrations\u2014more companies in the Fortune 500 are registered in Delaware than elsewhere\u2014has I think pioneered standards of excellence in corporate governance and has specific provisions dealing with this. I will not go through those provisions, but they talk about that need to establish a fair value for the existing shareholder. When we come to the Committee stage we will see that is not quite the way that New Zealand has approached the issue, and it certainly was not the way that the approach was to be taken when the bill was introduced. In New York, where they have similar provisions in the New York Business Corporation Law, section 623\u2014as the Minister reminded me last night\u2014they use this concept of \u201Cfair value\u201D, the same as in Delaware. In Canada they talk about \u201Cfair value\u201D in the context of the compensation award.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe American Business Association has a model code where \u201Cfair value\u201D is actually defined. We have not done it in that way. I think we have done it in a much more sophisticated way. But in the American Business Association model \u201Cfair value\u201D means the value of the corporation shares determined in three circumstances. First, immediately before the effectuation of the corporate action to which the shareholder objects; second, using customary and current valuation concepts and techniques generally employed for similar businesses in the context of the transaction requiring appraisal; and, third\u2014and this is quite significant\u2014without discounting for lack of market ability or minority status, except in certain cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI commend this legislation as it has come back from the Commerce Committee with a number of changes that we are later to consider. Looking at section 110 of the Companies Act, and the sections that follow it, I think we have produced an outcome in a New Zealand context that is highly workable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00223661eced9e8149cb93917879ad164590\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223661eced9e8149cb93917879ad164590\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Assistant Speaker, yes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7af39ec29e4fab9c11d655085c956d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He was no help at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6a4a57ba56e4697b3c0bc17f7ee5e9f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a bit uncharitable from that member, and he is getting me to engage with him when my speech must not be longer than 1 minute. I have already spent probably about 15 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f794cf5ca18e480fb28d7dfa754a57d4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, he was no help at all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4db638031e744c984d9ea07dc5af333\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is a bit uncharitable from that member; in fact, I have defended his contribution on many occasions. By and large the Commerce Committee has worked well. I congratulate Dave Hereora. He was the one who spent a lot of time getting his head round the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. I am obliged to the previous speaker, Dr Richard Worth, who does know a bit about it. When he gives little sermons in the House like the one he has just given, I always find them particularly interesting, especially when he goes back into history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e70c29740b4601b678d03a80e9bc3c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I bet sometimes you wonder why you slept through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224494d83b12d743d797913083980b455e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, to be fair to the member, I did not sleep through the speech he just gave; I found it very, very interesting. But I am now off the point. There is the potential to go on for 10 minutes if\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d83868321a7c42a797996e1398523312\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Could have fooled me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f11439e2bfdd44d9932dbd71c5ef707b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Normally I love interjections because they give me something to draw on, but I do want to make a couple of quick contributions. As the member Richard Worth quite rightly said, this bill came from some recommendations from the Law Commission around a case involving Natural Gas Corporation Holdings. It was about trying to set a regime so that shareholders had better rights. It is interesting to know that when I was the Minister of Commerce the first thing we did was to introduce the Takeovers Code, which the National Party had basically rejected. That code, of course, gave important rights to small shareholders. It is really important that we are introducing this legislation, which is another leg of this particular important part of companies law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EAs has already been said, we know what the objective is: to ensure that the markets function properly. It is time to give minority shareholders not so much protections as special abilities to have a fair share value price if they oppose certain transactions of the company\u2014that is, if the company is no longer the company that they had shares in. For example, if the constitution of the company is amended, that amendment might imply restrictions on the company\u2019s activity; the company might approve a major transaction that a shareholder does not agree with; or it might improve an amalgamation that the shareholder does not agree with. The shareholder may disagree with what is being done and want to opt out. This bill makes sure that there is a proper process for, particularly, assessing the value of the company shares at the time, so that minority shareholders\u2019 rights are protected as best as they can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis is good legislation. It is another piece of legislation from the Commerce Committee. I almost said the committee is ably chaired by the chairman; he does chair it quite well, but he made some uncharitable comments about me, so I will not say it. What I will say is that this is good legislation and needs to be progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002281162e8969834c80bee5a0bb55552ea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281162e8969834c80bee5a0bb55552ea5\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E From the comments made by previous speakers, members will be aware that National is supporting the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. The genesis of the bill came out of a case back in 2000, and a review of the law following the Hon Justice Doogue criticising the existing law in the case Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Ltd v Infratil 1998 Ltd. His criticisms related to the lack of information available to shareholders in relation to the valuation of shares and the date at which shares were to be valued. That case was really the genesis of a review that then led to a Law Commission report back in 2001. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAt the time of that case the judge said the matter was urgent\u2014that it needed urgent action. And here we are with this bill 8 years later, which shows how urgent it has been to this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a57ad1531f741a0b9c29bf93c54fcef\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: There was a Law Commission report in the meantime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f67da43e517f46269f4cb82f31e3e921\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The Law Commission report was in 2001. Well, I say to the Minister that in the court case\u2014and she will have a chance in the Committee stage to be able to articulate the points that she wishes to make\u2014the judge said the \u201Cfair and reasonable\u201D test for the valuation of shares is well established. It is an objective test. There is no accumulated jurisprudence in relation to the \u201Chonest estimate\u201D, and it would be a subjective test. One of the questions that came out from submitters to the Commerce Committee was, what actually is the \u201Chonest estimate\u201D test? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe key points that were canvassed at the select committee included the issue of valuation. Gerry Brownlee raised the point that where shareholders are aggrieved at the company\u2019s choice of valuation method, would they retain the right to reject a price offer and to bring the matter to arbitration, and if so, who would pay for that? Another point that came up in the submissions was the date of the valuation of shares. Clause 7 states that date is to be the close of business on the day before the special resolution is voted on. That is the date that the Canada Business Corporations Act covers, which was the point that Dr Richard Worth mentioned when we were looking at other jurisdictions. Another area was the date at which minority shareholders would lose their legal and beneficial title to the shares. We will be covering that point in some detail during the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe points that I have made add value to this bill. We are very happy with it. We had a very good discussion on it at the select committee, and some other points will come up during the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022688689583b6846e99766211982151eff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022688689583b6846e99766211982151eff\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This will be a very short call. New Zealand First will support the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill because we recognise that it does improve the current situation. One of the concerns raised by New Zealand First members when we were reading the bill\u2014we were not on the Commerce Committee\u2014was the one of arbitration. It concerns us a little bit this morning, which is the very reason that I have taken the call, to hear the chairman of the select committee and one of the members of that committee register those concerns. There is no recommendation in the commentary coming back from the Commerce Committee as to how the arbitration problem, which was well outlined by Gerry Brownlee and to a lesser degree by Lindsay Tisch, will be addressed\u2014in particular the one of cost. I want to put on record that New Zealand First has concerns around that. We will be supporting the bill because we recognise it is a significant improvement on the current situation, but we would like to have the arbitration question addressed. We would have preferred to have some comment from the select committee in the commentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221d248c2b12cc43ffa7b7366616f2b177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d248c2b12cc43ffa7b7366616f2b177\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Earlier this morning a very interesting situation arose. There was a point of order from Mr Tremain in relation to the previous bill we were discussing\u2014that being, I believe, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3), which had provisions on tobacco. At the conclusion of the second reading debate on that bill, a vote was taken on amendments. The Assistant Speaker Marian Hobbs gave a ruling that the vote was taken at that point to give effect to the select committee\u2019s amendments to the bill. I notice that the select committee I chaired made a number of amendments to this bill, but we appear not to have any such motion now. I want to clarify what the difference is between this bill and the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 3) that means we deal with it in a different fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222884600c38be483da387e3431f05bfbb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that, Mr Brownlee. I am able to advise you that the requirement for a resolution relates only to amendments agreed to by a majority of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022085a3e3afadf480f8816bf46d720be4c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I learn something every day, particularly when you are in the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c738f3a2734caaa140bc9bc3460f52\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You certainly do, Mr Brownlee. That is very true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ab7428e4fc441f8a830593adfb59b36\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f863cec1b1b04b2a81409ee958dc3809\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Companies Act 1993\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e09f581926e244fc8797e3d55abe6613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e09f581926e244fc8797e3d55abe6613\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Let us go straight to new section 112A, inserted by clause 7, which deals with the issue of arbitration when a price for a share is objected to by a minority shareholder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EJust so that people are clear, I point out that, essentially, the board of any company will accept a price for a buy-out, or the board will choose to shrink the shareholding by buying out some of the smaller shareholders. A price will be struck for the value of those shares. If the shareholders accept that price, everything is fine and it goes through with no problem. If the shareholders do not accept it, then they have a right to object. The procedure is that the company strikes the price, the shareholders have 10 days in which to think about it, and if they reply in writing that, no, they do not accept it, the parties go off to arbitration. The question then becomes who pays for the arbitration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that if the cost of arbitration was loaded on to the board, then effectively the board would have a gun to its head, because it would either pay for the arbitration process or lift the share price. The board would have to make a determination, depending on how big its purchase was, about what it should do. However, I have to say that in most cases the value of the purchase would be far greater than the cost of the legal proceedings surrounding arbitration. By the same token, if the cost of the arbitration was to be borne by the minority shareholders, then they effectively would have a gun held to their heads, because they would have to make a decision about whether they should spend their money on arbitration. In some cases they themselves will be entities, and they will have another subset of shareholders with expectations of the shares in the other entity. So the minority shareholders would have to decide whether to take a case to arbitration and wear all the costs, in the hope that any increase in the share price would be more than offset\u2014much more than offset\u2014by the gain they made on the share price itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo it is a bit of a catch-22 situation. It almost means that arbitration is not open to minority shareholders. It is not a process that needs to be used by a board. It is my opinion that the weight of authority in the buy-out lies with the board. In fact, this bill does exactly the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt would be useful to get the opinion of the Minister of Commerce on this matter. It is a relatively fine point. The politics of this House will not rise or fall on this particular issue, nor will the positions that people take in terms of whether to support the bill. As the chairman of the Commerce Committee, I feel a bit remiss for not picking up on it a bit sooner. I think our enthusiasm to get what effectively amounts to protection for minority shareholders in buy-out situations was so fervent that we did not quite think through just how a provision like this might work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt is not too late to fix it. The Committee could insert a small amendment to make it clear where the costs of the arbitration process would fall. I will quote from the intention of the bill, as stated at the start of it, in the purpose clause, so that we are all clear. Well, I cannot find it, but the purpose is to protect small shareholders from being steamrolled by a much larger entity. I suppose that an amendment bill does not have a purpose clause, because its purpose is to amend the main Act. None the less, if Parliament\u2019s intention was and is to protect those interests, it seems a little ridiculous to have a provision in the bill that immediately can be seen to impugn those interests. The Minister\u2019s view on that would be interesting. I wonder whether we could put in a small provision that split the matter fifty-fifty: if arbitration came out in favour of an increased share price, then the cost of the arbitration would be borne by the offering party; and, similarly, if arbitration came out in favour of the initial price, then the cost of the arbitration would be borne by the applicant. I hope the officials are listening, because I think it would be far better that an amendment like that were written by officials and introduced by the Minister, instead of a scrappy bit of paper being before the Committee. It seems to me that a fifty-fifty deal is not an unreasonable position to have. If one side wins, they get the win, and if the other side wins, they get the win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI will leave my comments there. I know that the Chairperson will not be looking to stifle the debate. My colleagues have mentioned a number of things they want to talk about, and, hopefully, the Minister will accumulate the concerns. In fact, I do not think there are very many concerns; this matter might be all we want to talk about. I hope the Minister will give us a bit of heads-up as to whether we ourselves need to introduce an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002221f9cd4e3124492aa32c2ebf5b5c29b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221f9cd4e3124492aa32c2ebf5b5c29b1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond briefly to Gerry Brownlee\u2019s point, because I think the member raises it in a genuine spirit of trying to resolve a difficult issue. Obviously, when we are talking about mum and dad investors, we do not want them to be in a situation where they are taking complicated and expensive court action, and arbitration, obviously, is not the most desired outcome in that regard. However, there has to be a mechanism for resolving a dispute when a dispute arises. I think the provision in the bill that actually provides some comfort in this regard is the ability for the arbitrator to award damages. People who are utilising the system unreasonably and putting pressure on a minority shareholder will find the damages that might be awarded against them a much higher discipline than the fear of sharing half the costs, if, in fact, the changes were made. The damages provision could cover all of the cost\u2014and, indeed, more\u2014to deal with the particular issue. The issue of damages is included under the provisions of what the arbitrator can award. The arbitrator has the power to award damages in those circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to take this debate away from the mum and dad investors for a minute and to ask members to think about the case where this issue arose\u2014Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Ltd v Infratil 1988 Ltd. What we are actually talking about\u2014a more likely situation\u2014is a company that was started as a family firm, is subject to a takeover, the person stays within the company for a period of time, further changes occur, and that person wants to opt out. So we are not necessarily talking about people who are without means; we are often talking about people with different commercial levels of strength from a legal perspective. I believe that the provisions in the bill that allow for discretion in the awarding of damages and payment of interest will, essentially, encourage companies and shareholders alike to be realistic about the initial value of the shares. I believe that that will discourage unnecessary delays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022235b7dd22a214049a0c6300a483d44bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022235b7dd22a214049a0c6300a483d44bf\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to the comments that the Minister of Commerce has made, because I think the matter is actually a bit more subtle than the way in which she has put it. The core provisions in Part 1, which National supports, are quite clearly the new section 112 and the provisions in new section 112A\u2014both sections are in clause 7\u2014which the Minister and Mr Brownlee have been referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe scheme of the legislation is very simple. The company gives notice of its offer to a shareholder, and the shareholder may accept that offer or may object. In the absence of objection the company must purchase the shares. Then there is the arbitration mechanism, which is described in section 112A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI think probably two substantive points emerge from what I have said. The first is the point that I made in part in my second reading speech. From the way that section 112(2) was originally drafted, the price had to be \u201Can honest estimate of the value\u201D. That has now been changed, and appropriately so\u2014and the Commerce Committee comments in its report on why it made that change\u2014to a new test: \u201Ca fair and reasonable price\u201D. There were big problems with using the phrase \u201Can honest estimate\u201D. I think there are certainly some problems of a linguistic nature in talking about \u201Cfair and reasonable\u201D. What is the actual difference between \u201Cfair\u201D on the one hand, and \u201Creasonable\u201D on the other hand? There are two subsections that will guide those who have to make a judgment on these issues as to what is \u201Cfair and reasonable\u201D. The first is set out in subsection 112(2), and subsection 112(3) allows for a different methodology, which can be used if the first methodology is not appropriate. The second methodology is to be used where it would be \u201Cclearly unfair\u201D to follow the methodology contained in the previous subsection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EComment has been made on this issue of arbitration. There is no doubt about it: these are most generous arbitration provisions, which one would not normally strike in a statute. Normally, there would simply be something along the line that in the event of a dispute there could be a submission to arbitration, and the provisions of the Arbitration Act 1996 would apply. But here we have something quite different and, I think, much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI think the Minister has correctly identified the most common class of case where there exists the possibility of an injustice being done to a minority shareholder\u2014the founder shareholder who continues in the company, then events change and he or she wants to exit the company. The normal rule in an arbitration context is that costs follow the event, which means the loser pays. In these particular provisions relating to arbitration, we see that that principle is being echoed in a number of ways. For example, if we look at section 112A(2), we see that it states: \u201CIf the price determined for the shares\u2014(a) exceeds the provisional price paid, the arbitral tribunal must order the company to pay the balance owing to the shareholder:\u201D. In that circumstance it would be the shareholder who gained the costs award. In the second circumstance, where the price determined for the shares \u201C(b) is less than the provisional price paid, the arbitral tribunal must order the shareholder to pay the excess to the company.\u201D, it would be the company that received the costs award. But there is the prospect of not only a costs award; the award may include interest. Again, we see the reflection of the loser pays in section 112A(3): \u201CExcept in exceptional circumstances, an arbitral tribunal must award interest on any balance owing or excess to be paid \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe final thing I would say on the question of costs is picked up in subsection 112(7), which imports clause 6 of schedule 2 of the Arbitration Act 1996. If we look at that particular provision, we see that it really is nothing more than a code for the \u201Ccosts and expenses of an arbitration\u201D. But here the term \u201Ccosts and expenses of an arbitration\u201D is given an extended meaning. Also, I have picked up an error in the drafting that has been occasioned by the delay. I am referring to section 112A(7). The term \u201Ccosts and expenses of an arbitration\u201D in that provision includes \u201Cwhere a balance is owing to the shareholder,\u2014(a) the reasonable legal costs of the shareholder on a solicitor-and-client basis;\u201D. Under the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, those concepts have now been changed, and that wording should be \u201Con a lawyer-and-client basis\u201D in order to be consistent with the new regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESection 112A(7)(b) states: \u201Cthe reasonable costs of expert witnesses.\u201D So we see here a bias in the case of the minority shareholder who wins. That shareholder, in the context of a costs award, can get a little more. It is unusual\u2014very unusual\u2014for costs to be awarded reflecting what used to be called a \u201Csolicitor-and-client basis\u201D but is now called a \u201Clawyer-and-client basis\u201D. That is most unusual. It is reasonable that the costs of expert witnesses generally form part of a costs award, so that is a change that should be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have no other comment on Part 1. Part 1 is otherwise, I believe, well-drafted and strikes an appropriate balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221af65d6892fd4e6dab7b89cc455cea26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af65d6892fd4e6dab7b89cc455cea26\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister\u2019s explanation as to the costs of arbitration is taken on board, and, certainly, the comments that my colleague Dr Worth mentioned satisfy the question that I had during the second reading of the bill. I thank them for those explanations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI have a couple of points to make. The first relates to the date of the valuation of the shares. There certainly was some concern among the submissioners about the trigger date for the valuation of the shares. New section 112(2), set out in clause 7, has been amended from that set out in the original bill, to require that the date of the valuing of the shares is at the close of business on the day before the day on which the special resolution is voted on. That is the example in the Canadian Business Corporation Act. We see under new section 112C, \u201CTiming of transfer of shares\u2014(1) On the day on which a board gives notice under section 111(2)(e) that the board agrees to the purchase of the shares by the company,\u2014(a) the legal title to those shares passes to the company; and (b) the rights of the shareholder in relation to those shares end.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhen those ownership shares have transferred, the question then arises as to when the minority shareholder loses legal and beneficial title to those shares. Once the valuation is done the shares are transferred, The ownership of shares gives shareholders three rights, currently: to vote, to make distribution of the shares, and to receive distributions. None of those rights are retained from that time onwards. Sellers no longer have an interest in the company\u2019s future once those decisions have been made, and therefore they should not be able to vote. In addition, the minority shareholders should not retain the right to obtain distributions. That was clarified within the discussions at the select committee, and is identified here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThose are the points I wanted to bring forward. I am happy with the Minister\u2019s explanation as to the costs of arbitration, and there are no other points that I wish to canvass with her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e768788a2ab449e996cb1102fe408683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e768788a2ab449e996cb1102fe408683\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E We have had very rapid discussions on this particular matter. I appreciate the direction that the Minister of Commerce gave us as to how the Arbitration Act itself might work. Also, concerning the particular provisions and their interactions with the law as explained by Dr Worth, I am now quite satisfied that there is no anomalous position. As it has been explained to me by my colleague Dr Worth, the situation is that essentially the loser does pay. It seems to me that that is totally fair in this situation, and National members will be able to continue to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI assume that in a minute we will come to the debate on the title. I think there is quite a debate to be had on the title, and it would not surprise me if it were overturned and a new name put on the bill. Let us see how it goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 247 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to insert new clause 8A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdaee1f62724420da825fd9db7a7cea2\u0022\u003EPart 2  Transitional provision and consequential amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000232\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 247 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to add new clause 13 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000233\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000234\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f2df18ba1654535b1ea4a5adddf3155\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb5a856e4d7342b18e76bcc3bc483be3\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000237\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000238\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229595d2240e544be59af9d3228a702822\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002259c625300a9a41c29eaa4f376e786f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259c625300a9a41c29eaa4f376e786f5b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. I have already described the nature of the changes that the bill brings into play. Essentially, minority shareholders will be supported in their decision to exit a company if the company structure or operations have changed significantly since the shareholders entered the company, but in doing so they will be afforded some protection against financial loss by reason of their decision to leave the company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill provides more clarity and transparency in determining the price of shares when a company agrees to purchase shares from a dissenting shareholder. This will lead to a reduction of the time and cost involved in resolving disputes arising under the provisions, and will reduce the likelihood of cases going to court. There is no need to traverse the detail again, but during the Committee stage I tabled a further amendment to the bill by way of a Supplementary Order Paper. This amendment provided that notice of minority buy-out rights must also be sent to shareholders where a special resolution has been passed in lieu of a meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI would like to take the opportunity to again commend the officials, as well as the members of the Commerce Committee, for their work on the bill, and also to thank all those who made submissions on it. This bill is an example of this Government\u2019s commitment to improve business law in New Zealand. One of the first things we did\u2014and my colleague Paul Swain made this point in his second reading speech\u2014was to introduce a Takeovers Code to provide an internationally accepted standard for protecting minority shareholders in a takeover situation. This latest move shows we are continuing to improve the law to protect minority shareholders, and that will give investors greater confidence and will contribute to deepening our capital markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00229c6c428eedac4a5bb3e5c887f45a0a57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c6c428eedac4a5bb3e5c887f45a0a57\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Eight years after a judge highlighted the substantial flaws of the Companies Act in dealing with minority buy-outs and called for an urgent remedy, the Government has settled on a solution. Eight years is a long time. Eight years is a long time for an injustice to roll on, so it is good that, after that passage of time, decisive action has been taken that National supports. The National Party has been very actively involved. Its members, including the Commerce Committee\u2019s esteemed chairman, participated very fully in the committee\u2019s deliberations on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhat spurred all this legislation was what happened in a case\u2014as Mr Swain has said\u2014touching Infratil. Infratil was the first minority shareholder to invoke minority buy-out provisions, in order to force the Natural Gas Corporation to buy its 6.7 percent stake in the corporation, after it opposed the corporation\u2019s $824 million takeover of the energy retailer TransAlta. Infratil was unhappy with the $1.30 provisional price set by the Natural Gas Corporation, but after the company sought a declaratory judgment in order to get control of the Infratil shares, Infratil was forced to hand over title, and the price was later set at $1.68 after protracted arbitration. At that time Justice Doogue, who was the trial judge in connection with the litigation, criticised the statutory vacuum and said that the relevant section of the Act was \u201Csubstantially flawed\u201D\u2014that was the phrase he used\u2014and should be considered urgently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EA number of issues emerged from that case, and we have discussed them in the course of these parliamentary processes. There were issues around timing, around valuation information and transaction enforcement, and also around compensation. Either the Act was short on detail or, alternatively, the issue was missing from the Act. So it is right to say that the Law Commission reached a proper view in concluding that the bones of the law needed some flesh, and that is what we are seeing today. National commends the bill. We look forward to its further passage by way of the Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI note one thing of perhaps passing interest, and that is that the commencement clause provides that \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D If I look at the other bills that are on the Table and being dealt with in urgency, I note that the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill comes into force on the 28th day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent, and the Family Courts Matters Bill comes into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. It seems to be very much a preference of individual parliamentary counsel as to what may or may not be an appropriate commencement date. Surely there is a case for a greater element of consistency on the issue of when legislation is to strike New Zealanders and affect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022760341ae65b94746832941d2aa6c168e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022760341ae65b94746832941d2aa6c168e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Deputy Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272a766bb3e4444a97ec96b0fd5faaa4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no! Come on! He doesn\u2019t know anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a249a3a0446c4a1fab40febea1d633ae\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry Brownlee must be getting tired. He is usually a very calm and mild-mannered man. But here he is on Friday getting a bit agitated and grumpy. There is not long to go now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Dr Richard Worth, made a good contribution on the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. He started by introducing a bit of politics into the debate, so I must respond to that. The Minister of Commerce has said publicly, and rightly so\u2014and I agree with her, because I used to be the Minister of Commerce\u2014that in 1999 the Labour-led Government inherited a regulatory wasteland. The member has the effrontery to criticise us for taking 8 years to sort this issue out. We have had a massive agenda, a massive programme, of doing things in order to get back to protecting some of the rights of people, which this bill looks to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6857d405244096b969dd0d7401e3ac\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: There is no excuse for perpetuating an injustice, though\u2014no excuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225155bea6de1946cb87b83faa85bcc2ec\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The member says there is no excuse for it. We had to start from scratch. There has not been sufficient time to do it all. That is why we need another 3 years and then another 3 years, as undoubtedly will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EBut I digress. This is good legislation. It is designed to help those shareholders who want to buy out when an action is taken that they do not agree with. If the share price that is set is not agreed to by the minority share owner, then there is the ability to get arbitration and some resolution on the issue of the value of the shares. This is good legislation, and it will progress because of that and because of the good work that the Commerce Committee did when studying the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f9e4eeb84d4d2fafd16163f12a552c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f9e4eeb84d4d2fafd16163f12a552c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat, Paul Swain, probably should not have highlighted the fact that he was the Minister of Commerce in the Labour Government for a very long time. It has not escaped the attention of those of us on the Opposition side of the House that it is only in very, very recent times that a new Minister of Commerce, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, has very rapidly picked up off the desk the piles of unattended work of the previous Minister and rattled it into some shape that the House has been able to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI know that the previous Minister is now touting his credentials around the business community, as he contemplates a career beyond this particular Chamber. I find it a little strange that he makes speeches in the House that totally contradict some of the outrageous claims he makes in his CV. As a recipient of that CV, I have been incredibly impressed by the writings in it. He is unable, of course, to line up the events as described in the CV with the actual events inside the House. But, none the less, this afternoon I will not destroy the claims of extraordinary leadership in the commerce field made by the previous Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt probably would have been better for Paul Swain to say that a previous Minister had slaved over the matters included in the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill for some 6 years and then handed the current Minister, on a plate, the opportunity to take the glory as the tape came up. He could have likened it, perhaps, to a pursuit cycle race, where he was the guy who went out to the front and made all the running, but who in the end had to hope that the Olympic Committee would give him a fifth bronze medal. The bill is definitely a bronze medal effort from the current Government as far as attention to commercial law in this country is concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think we have gone through the exercise on this bill quite diligently in the Commerce Committee, with the full cooperation of all members there. The previous Minister was particularly helpful in that matter, particularly during his more wakeful moments. There were not very many of those, but when they occurred they were most useful to the committee in its deliberations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022179a3c6684d14ccdb8cc51bca7c077ed\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: They were very fleeting, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014a7919d3dd43599018f95ca30d2dd7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: His ability to direct us, albeit fleetingly, as my colleague behind me says, in a particular direction was very much appreciated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EQuite seriously, this bill talks about minority buy-out rights. The bill ensures that minority shareholders have a right to sell their shares in circumstances where the shape of the company they originally invested in has changed by virtue of a takeover or a buy-out. This legislation represents one of the many bills that go through the House every year where a lot of good work has been done by members of Parliament on all sides of the House. We continue to support the bill through this reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6c78690921b447c811426c7fd7aacd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6c78690921b447c811426c7fd7aacd3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from my colleagues Gerry Brownlee and Richard Worth, I say that the debate on the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill has been very interesting. During the Commerce Committee hearings a lot of information came out. As I said in my previous speech, the genesis of the bill came from the court case heard back in 2000. A Law Commission report came out following that, recommending that these changes be made. We welcome the clarification that the bill brings to these difficult issues. We need to make sure that in company buy-outs the rights of minority shareholders are protected, and this bill addresses that. So we welcome the clarification provided by this bill. We support the reasonably simple approach taken in it. This legislation does protect those who disagree with substantial changes being made to a business entity, right at the start of a new entity coming together. Having made those points, I say National is very happy to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dc30915003644ab82c39ae633fe2317\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4864be4113847fe998bc0d9d16ee786\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd9ac7d0ef04f61acd54658d92defd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd9ac7d0ef04f61acd54658d92defd2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have a little problem. I have a member away whom I did not know would be away. I would like in the first instance to seek leave for the two New Zealand First members who are away attending the Hon Brian Donnelly\u2019s investiture to be counted as being in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c8aae1790449859afcee1d162a30da\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00222046ffd4530e4a63b0a248702f558711\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222046ffd4530e4a63b0a248702f558711\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just missed the last couple of points, so I wonder whether the member would like to clarify what he was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002287cb1913d9614148a65d64f5eec9f652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287cb1913d9614148a65d64f5eec9f652\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I can probably help. New Zealand First has members who are attending the investiture of the Hon Brian Donnelly at Government House today. They could not be in the House for a vote. The House by leave can consider that they are in the presence of Parliament for the purpose of that vote. We certainly agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5fef53092f44e3ea152be5751362080\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022451f43e2ca1f4c19b6121589b6ad9620\u0022\u003ECompanies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bda6632a0354971bec0adda58c81fd0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000273\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022f413053e15614e9f95b8acf08f899b4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f413053e15614e9f95b8acf08f899b4c\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi. It has always been of interest to me that politicians, unfortunately, are rated as the lowlifes in a long list of respected professions. To bring the House up to date today, I can say that, contrary to the speculation raised in the House this morning that carpet sellers, real estate agents, and car salesmen are scraping the barrel, it is actually rather sad that politicians are still trailing way behind\u2014M\u0101ori Party members are exempt. I guess there has, however, been some progress. In this year\u2019s Reader\u2019s Digest list of respected professions, we politicians scored second to last, with only telemarketers behind us. That is hardly a vote of confidence in the trustworthiness of politicians, and with issues such as \u201Cpaintergate\u201D, \u201Ccorngate\u201D, \u201Cspeedgate\u201D, \u201Cdoodlegate\u201D, and all those sorts of things to contend with, it is probably understandable. On the other side of the gate, when the M\u0101ori Television Service revealed recently that it was on Crosby/Textor\u2019s advice that in 2003 National decided on the strategy of attacking M\u0101ori with the infamous \u014Crewa speech or the equally sad \u201CIwi/Kiwi\u201D billboards, it does not do much for our reputation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo when we come to the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill, which is described as being driven by the express purpose of instituting a fairer and more clear process, we of course are inclined to be pretty supportive of such a move. But things have become a little bit cloudy. When we looked into the background to this bill, we were referred to the case of Natural Gas Corporation Holdings Ltd v Infratil 1988 Ltd\u2014the first High Court case, I am told, to consider the minority buy-out provisions of the Companies Act 1993. In his decision on that case Justice Doogue said: \u201CIt is common ground that the minority buy-out rights sections are defective.\u201D He continued: \u201CAlthough they provide for the company to nominate a fair and reasonable price for the shares to be acquired, they do not state at what date that price is to be ascertained. Nor do the sections make any provision for the company, in nominating the fair and reasonable price, to give any information to the minority shareholder of the basis of the valuation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI have taken a little bit of time to return to the High Court finding, because it is yet another instance where the trust and confidence that the public have in the political system runs the risk of being undermined\u2014undermined by flaws in legislation that Judge Doogue referred to as a \u201Cstatutory vacuum\u201D. Justice Doogue recommended that if the minority buy-out rights are to be beneficial and workable, they should be urgently reconsidered. In response to Justice Doogue\u2019s findings, the Law Commission report highlighted problems with the existing legislation and concluded it was defective in its failure to set out a workable method of valuation. What they concluded, I see, was that the current test in sections 110 to 115 of the Act gives insufficient guidance or certainty to companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo here we are today looking to amend the Companies Act to ensure that the buy-out regime functions efficiently, cost-effectively, and appropriately. We were relieved to see the recommendation from the Commerce Committee that the concept of \u201Cfair and reasonable method\u201D is retained. However, the committee went further and suggested that a \u201Cfair and reasonable method\u201D requires an objective assessment of value. Not only are we valuing fairness and reasonableness but we are even putting the effort into measuring that it matters. That is all great and good. I understand that Chapman Tripp, in its submission to the select committee, endorsed this move, advising that statutory guidance as to the fair and reasonable price to be paid was desirable and would provide more certainty. Fairness and reasonableness is actually a very simple concept, and fairness and reasonableness in this bill is in the context of a dissenting vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe bill is essentially to improve the way in which a minority shareholding in a company is valued when minority shareholders have elected to have their shares purchased by the company. It seems such a simple concept, but as we know, a dissenting vote in the experience of this House is anything but simple. In fact, the dissenting vote of my colleague Tariana Turia on the Foreshore and Seabed Bill was rapidly followed by her crossing the floor, and the birth of the M\u0101ori Party not much later. We in the M\u0101ori Party operate from a different premise: that a dissenting vote in itself is not a fatal offence. Indeed, we welcome the opportunity to share diverse experiences and to agree to disagree when consensus appears unable to be reached. I suppose the point is that we must have a process in place from which to respond to dissenting points of view. We welcome, therefore, the initiative in the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill to establish clarity in relation to the process of minority buy-outs and an appropriate methodology for the valuation of shares. The bill, as Chapman Tripp, barristers and solicitors, advised, is a step in the right direction but it does not go far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI just want to wrap up by saying we cannot leave this debate without acknowledging our disappointment that there appears to have been no apparent consultation with M\u0101ori companies, no apparent consultation with M\u0101ori company directors in the Law Commission review, and no specific submissions sought from M\u0101ori companies. At this point I would like to hold up this article from this morning\u2019s Otago Daily Times, headed \u201CCall for Maori involvement with Business NZ\u201D. I would recommend this article to any member of the House with an interest in the future of New Zealand. In this article, the M\u0101ori Party candidate for Ikaroa-Rawhiti, Derek Fox, lays down a challenge for Business New Zealand to include more M\u0101ori in its organisation, and in the way its policies and strategies are formulated. His argument was that M\u0101ori have a huge interest in the future of New Zealand, as collectively tangata whenua are the biggest producers of meat and wool, and the biggest shareholder in the dairy giant Fonterra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is a challenge that this House, and this Government, could also respond to, and one which we would have looked forward to seeing in the roll-out of the Companies (Minority Buy-out Rights) Amendment Bill. We make these comments in the honest hope that the Minister and the ministry may take on board the commitment of the M\u0101ori Party to do all we can to invest in the growth of business in New Zealand. We look forward to being involved in the future discussions, and to that end we will support this bill at this reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022712618b0d21f4a51934e3314e96b10fd\u0022\u003ECommerce Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc522fde5c8248b98a2e47c2065db954\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002265ee8d661d614db989a481de95098287\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Commerce Act 1986\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022460fa7b6175849c691a07856076fb812\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460fa7b6175849c691a07856076fb812\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Just for clarification, because this is a very complex piece of legislation, and so none of us on this side of the Committee get out of order in respect of contributions that we might make during the Committee stage, the debate that we are about to enter into relates to Part 1. Does that include those matters contained only in clauses 3 and 4, including the new Part 4 substituted, which of course would lead us right through almost the entire bill up to what would be regarded as Part 2, which commences with clause 27? Am I reading that correctly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463c6eb881f14ed88e4bad4c0b47ed24\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, Mr Power, it includes clauses 3 through to 26, so that would include new clause 4, and it also includes the schedules as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227844d8ca56bf47feb9d77e56aebef1b0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand. Thank you for that clarification. Those members of the public and the Parliament who were tuned into this debate yesterday will be aware that this bill is receiving the support of a substantial majority of the parties in the House, although not of all, and we are now in the Committee stage of the bill where we can spend some time on it. We are lucky to have in the Chamber the Hon Paul Swain, who has some technical expertise in this area and who will be able to assist us during the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThese matters relate to the principal part of the bill, and in particular I will commence with the purpose clause. The reason I am going to start there is that I want to allow the Minister time to reflect on Supplementary Order Paper 244, which she has tabled in respect of a couple of amendments made to this bill, and ask her to explain to the Committee how that Supplementary Order Paper and the amendments contained therein relate to the work done by the Commerce Committee, and whether we are talking about technical changes or major changes. I notice that the initial amendment actually has to do with legal costs surrounding the input methodologies, and it might be worth the Minister\u2019s while to just clarify those matters so that we do not get sidetracked into a lengthy and technical discussion on those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EJust returning initially to the purpose clause, the Minister said in the second reading, if I recall correctly, that the key to this particular clause was to balance the issues of investment alongside the benefits with consumers. Regulation, and the role that it would play in balancing those two variables, is essentially what this legislation is all about. I did raise the issue\u2014and I would be interested in any comments that the Minister might have on this\u2014of whether that purpose clause goes wide enough or is intended to capture the consumer of tomorrow, and how that is balanced alongside these regulatory decisions in respect of infrastructure and pricing at the consumer end. So there are two things that I would ask the Minister to comment on at this early stage. The first is the matter of balancing the rights and interests of the consumer of tomorrow against the purpose clause and the matters that I have outlined. Secondly, would the Minister be kind enough to give a quick overview of the Supplementary Order Paper so we will know, as we work our way through, that we will not have to have too many technical discussions about that document. I am signalling those two matters at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBecause of the way this bill has been structured, we will have a substantial debate on Part 1 of the bill. As I rightly understand from the Chairperson\u2019s colleague who was previously in the Chair, Mr Robertson, we are dealing now with clauses 3 to 26. This is essentially the guts of the entire bill, barring the matters relating to airports and airlines, and regulation in that regard. We will be getting into quite a complex and detailed discussion around the input methodology determination and the rights of merit review appeal. I will be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on valuation techniques, the calculations relating to the weighted average cost of capital, and other matters. This is a good time to do that, because the first and second readings do not allow us to have those discussions in a detailed way, and of course the Minister did not appear before the Commerce Committee during its deliberations on the bill. So now is an opportunity for the Minister to give us some of her thoughts publicly on these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs I say, we are certainly supportive of this bill, but I think there have been some big changes around those merit review processes. I think it is worth the Minister making some comments on the consumer-owned electricity trusts, as well. I would not say that those matters are controversial, but they deserve further explanation from the Minister. I think what I will do at this stage is signal that those are the areas, along with the Supplementary Order Paper and the purpose clause, that we are interested in hearing from the Minister on. Once those matters have been dealt with, I am sure we can proceed at a seemly pace through the rest of the Committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EJust before the Minister takes her call, I take this opportunity to thank the officials who were involved in putting this legislation together. As I said yesterday in the second reading, as did the Minister and Mr Swain, this is complex stuff and we were guided through it by the officials from the Ministry of Economic Development with a degree of competency that frankly allowed those of us who are not specialists in this area to decipher some of the more technical aspects of the legislation in what I thought was a pretty reasonable way. I think probably two or three members of the committee in particular grasped the issues quickly and were able to have some good discussions with the officials during the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI will not say any more, other than that I look forward to hearing from the Minister on those points and I am sure she will not mind if we spend just a little time on those three or four issues prior to moving through the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00226e45c1a85029481e9d7f27c65041e72a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e45c1a85029481e9d7f27c65041e72a\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to thank the member for his constructive contribution to the debate on this bill, and indeed we have had really good cooperation from the Opposition in respect of the matters contained within it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will deal with the first point that was raised, which is about how we judge the interests of future consumers versus current consumers. I think that is set out in the purpose clause. The purpose is \u201Cto promote the long-term benefit of consumers in markets \u2026 by promoting outcomes that are consistent with outcomes produced in competitive markets such that suppliers of regulated goods or services\u2014(a) have incentives to innovate and to invest, including in replacement, upgraded, and new assets;\u201D. I do not think we should ignore the fact that that is No. 1 of a series of four tests against which those outcomes are being measured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EStarting with the incentives to innovate and to invest is really sending a signal about how important it is not to forget that future needs are just as important when we are looking at a non-competitive market. New section 52A, to be inserted by clause 4, sets out incentives for suppliers of regulated good or services to innovate, to improve efficiency, and to provide services of a quality that reflects consumer demand\u2014that is, current consumers. The purpose of this provision is also to ensure that suppliers share with consumers the benefits of efficiency gains, and to limit the ability of suppliers to extract excessive profits. I think we have the order right, and that sends a very good signal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe amendments to Supplementary Order Paper 244 are technical amendments. Perhaps as we go through the debate there may be particular questions the member would like me to refer to. There are no material changes to policy contained within these amendments. Essentially the first one is to clarify that input methodologies cannot provide for the legal costs of appeals to be passed through to prices. That is probably one of the less technical aspects of the changes being promoted by the Supplementary Order Paper. I will use new section 54T as an example. The Commerce Committee recommended that the power to transfer jurisdiction be limited to Transpower only. Therefore, the Supplementary Order Paper makes a consequential change to section 54T, to limit the criteria and consultation requirements to Transpower and transmission issues. If the member goes through the different parts of the explanatory note of the Supplementary Order Paper, then he will see that the amendment is simply designed to deliver technically what has been approved by way of policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe third area that I want to spend just a little bit of time on is the question of appeals on input methodologies. It has not been a controversial area, but it has been an approach we have adopted to try to achieve a purpose. The purpose is certainty, in an area where the previous law has not allowed for certainty in investment decisions. The only way to get in front of the Commerce Commission in respect of negotiating administrative settlements was to breach a threshold. We are already on the back foot when we are doing that. We are being punished, as it were, for failure in the past, instead of a forward-looking approach being taken, which is what the new provisions of the bill allow. I personally was very passionate about having appeals at the input methodologies stage, because it is really important that when businesses are making investment decisions, they have certainty in respect of how the regulator will act. Businesses actually could not be certain in this area of the input methodologies, which I have to say are pretty much the basis for all of the court cases that have been taken in respect of the Commerce Commission and Part 4 and Part 4A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe recognise, though, that the input methodologies having appeals in the High Court will present some novel challenges for it. I think we will have to use constructively the period between the passing of this legislation and the implementation of the input methodologies and the appeals that may arise from that. As we have 2 years, essentially, through to 2010, there will be ample time to appoint suitable and available experts\u2014the panel of lay members. We will be ahead of the game, as it were. In that time, the High Court will be able to consider the best way to optimise the appellate process so that it is fair to all while dealing efficiently with the issues raised in appeals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOnce this legislation is passed, I intend to write to the Rules Committee to ask it to start thinking about the processes around High Court appeals to deal with this rather novel area of law, as it will become. I think it is worth doing that, because the alternative would have been to set up a specialist tribunal just to deal with this. I believe very firmly that the first time this occurs, and the input methodologies are then set, appeals will arise out of that. I think that is pretty much a given. I believe that will settle it for quite some considerable time. Even though the system may be reviewed again in 7 years\u2019 time, I do not think we will see significant changes beyond that initial period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am very keen for the High Court to give some thought to how it might handle a process where it might be better to get people around the table to talk about issues and really thrash them out, rather than leaving the case for the Commerce Commission, with the case for the individual parties to be made by counsel, and then for rulings to be made. I think that will be a challenge in terms of the new process, but I think it will be worthwhile. I am very grateful that we have the support of the Opposition on this bill. I believe it will improve investment in our important infrastructure companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00227e0b984a046049f787d21e6cc65a3a4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e0b984a046049f787d21e6cc65a3a4d\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for that explanation. I am particularly interested to follow the procedure around the new role for the High Court and how that pans out in a non-legislative sense. I am not sure of the procedures around how a Minister of the Crown does that, but if it is just a matter of informing the body\u2014or signalling to it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76c7910e15c478a8fce7b3bd65b62dd\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The Rules Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b05eb9d9792e4c93a25108e364786298\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: We need to make sure that those processes take into account what will inevitably be a different framework initially. If that is the way it is done, then that is the way it is done; I cannot comment on that. But I would certainly be interested, in one capacity or another, to see the processes that unfold from those particular discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c8336666514ceca5ea8f725aec15d8\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll keep you engaged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f7a3af9b2449aa8451019f99e1be7b\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThere are two or three other matters that I would just like to put on record for the Opposition. In fact, the Minister has addressed one of them in part already: the issue of the new appeals regime for the input methodologies, and when it is that merits reviews are to occur. I know one of the major concerns from parties originally about having a two-step review process, or appeal process, was that the issue that gaming could occur. The concern was that because the two steps were in place, that could easily be used as a way of\u2014I would say\u2014stalling the finality of the determinations. But in the end, unless I am wrong\u2014and the Minister or the officials can nod or shake their heads at me at this point\u2014the initial finding is to stay in place while those particular reviews or discussions are going on. So the risk that front-end gaming will take place is eliminated almost completely, because that initial stand is to be held in place while those discussions occur. If I have got it right, that means that if, indeed, a merit review is undertaken, it will be undertaken at a time when the original determination is held in place, which means that there will be no material gain to be made from taking the appeal process through more than one stage. That makes sense, and as long as that process within the context of the two appeal stages is understood by all players\u2014which it will be when they read the legislation\u2014I think that is an important step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is worth making a comment about the consumer-based trusts for just one second. Of course, the model behind the measure applying to them is that, because the consumer is\u2014in theory, anyway\u2014both the owner and the end user, the squeeze, if one likes, on pricing means that both those parties, because they hold two such crucial roles together, require a less rigorous regulatory framework. In essence, they are able to ultimately control pricing by controlling their representatives on various trusts and other such bodies, and controlling any input they might have into the senior management or governance process surrounding decisions on price setting and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is also worth making one point about a curious relationship that we discovered during the Commerce Committee hearings, which I know the Hon Paul Swain and I were most engaged by. It is the interesting situation of the Northland community trust company, where the \u201Cdemocratic\u201D processes that are supposedly responsible for keeping that natural price setting in place are slightly skewed by the fact that the trustees are appointed directly by the member of Parliament for Northland and the M\u0101ori member for that area\u2014in other words, in current terminology, by the honourable members John Carter and Hone Harawira. That presents a slightly skewed version of the democratic model that the consumer-based trust is designed to put in place, because, of course, no direct participatory pressure is able to be exerted in the same way that would occur with the other consumer-based trusts. I think it is worth making that point, but I do think this measure is a tidy way of dealing with those trusts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI have one final question that the Minister may be able to deal with before I hand over to my colleagues, who have far more expertise and detailed knowledge of these matters than I do. It is on the issue of the capacity of the Commerce Commission to deliver on the input methodologies on time. That is an important point, and it was one that I, and to a lesser extent the Hon Paul Swain, raised with a number of submitters during the select committee process. When Ms Rebstock appeared for the commission\u2014it was all in open session, so I am not breaching any privilege\u2014she assured the committee that we had sufficient expertise and capacity to get these input methodologies determined in a way that would not hold up the process. That is an important assurance that this Committee needs to hear from the Minister. Although I know the Minister has no direct political ability to interfere with the commission\u2019s work, nor should she or any other Minister, for that matter, it would be helpful to be reassured that she is confident, in her ministerial capacity, that the commission does have the capacity to meet those time lines in what is\u2014and I know Lindsay Tisch and Richard Worth know more about this than I do\u2014exceptionally complex and very, very difficult work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI will leave my contributions on this part of the debate there, but I ask the Minister just to give the Committee of the whole House some assurances in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00227f44577de21e4690bf62786ef26cc738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f44577de21e4690bf62786ef26cc738\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E Again I am very grateful to the member. I was just jotting down and checking my recollection of what had happened. We have resourced the Commerce Commission to develop the input methodologies. It is a specific allocation for it to do that. The commission has already issued a discussion document with both the process and the timetable included in it. It intends to hold a conference on all the input methodologies in February 2010, so that is after it has consulted on all of the individual input methodologies. It plans to have it determined by mid-2010, in accordance with the legislation, with 20 days then allowed for appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022424747b47cd140479908a884bc4bf35b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022424747b47cd140479908a884bc4bf35b\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E One of the most controversial parts of the select committee process was dealing with the inclusion of airports. Although we came to some consensus that they should be included in the disclosure regimes, there is probably more debate over this than on any other point. I have a particular interest in airports\u2014I mentioned this in the second reading\u2014so I want to concentrate my comments just on the airport part of the bill. Airports were a late inclusion and, as I have said, National feels that they should be included in the regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that came out when we were trying to set a pricing regime was whether companies should be operating as a whole. The argument came forward that in airport company situations they were not: they were not operating as a single till, each of their entities was separately in a charging regime, so that they became profit centres. One of the arguments was simply that if we want to have some fairness and equity in terms of setting prices, we should actually be looking at their operating as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe information supplied to the committee indicated that some airport companies over-recovered in regard to their airfield activities under the Commerce Commission scenario based on historic cost of those specialised assets, and also under the Commerce Commission scenario of using the optimised depreciated replacement cost, which is the optimised deprival value, for specialised assets. We were keen to make sure that this part of the debate was fully canvassed and, as I said, it was the most controversial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe bill now has a regulatory regime that allows for the setting of the airport charges, and moves it away from the Airports Act into the Commerce Commission. But, I say to the Minister, I need some clarification in terms of what we are looking at with the methodology. We have just had an inquiry into State-owned enterprise valuation methodology, and my understanding is\u2014and the Minister\u2019s advisers here today may be able to help me with this\u2014that the aim of applying the optimised deprival value methodology is to value the assets at the cost to the owner of reinvesting in that business if he or she was deprived of those assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo if they were taken away, what actually is the methodology we would use? The optimised deprival value methodology is usually higher than the historic cost. My understanding is that in New Zealand the post-tax nominal weighted average cost of capital is normally used. The next point is that the rate works perfectly well with the historic cost valuation. The next point is that combining the post-tax nominal weighted average cost of capital and the revalued assets can create a double counting of the inflation effect. Those are questions that the Minister, with her advisers, may be able to help me with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOn the other side of the equation, of course, we heard that although the airlines and the Board of Airline Representatives of New Zealand in particular were keen to have the airports included in the Commerce Amendment Bill, the airports\u2014which would argue that they have for the last 20 years operated very successfully without this new regime\u2014were not happy that this was included. They gave examples of where there are deregulated regimes. They mentioned Stansted and Manchester in the United Kingdom, and they mentioned Sydney. But we felt that at the end we need to have this fair and consistent so that there was some equity and that we were not operating where monopolies could be seen to be operating, and that including the airports in this bill was the right way to go. So with those points I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s reply to me as to the clarification of those valuation methodologies, which she may be able to help me with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6330656dc7b46bebe2fc036d31ab05f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6330656dc7b46bebe2fc036d31ab05f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I continue this debate in the spirit of people genuinely wanting to debate these issues. The provisions relating to the input methodologies are the most important provisions in this bill apart from the introduction of a purpose statement for this particular part. Given that these rules determine how financial statements should be prepared for regulatory purposes, they actually allow the Commerce Commission to identify whether a natural monopoly business is taking monopoly rents. So they are the fundamental part of any form of regulatory control under the legislation, including the very light-handed information disclosure regime that we have just mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think the member is asking me to set the input methodologies; we are not doing that. That is the Commerce Commission\u2019s role, and it will be doing that by 2010. Asset valuations could use the optimised deprival value, they could use the optimised depreciative replacement cost method, and they could use the depreciated historic cost method. I think the member has gone through some of those options and asked me to define what it should be. The whole point of defining them up front is so that businesses have certainty going forward about how the Commerce Commission will interpret their obligations to report on their financial statements under any of the regimes included under the Act. That is the same with asset revaluations, the allocation of common costs, taxation, and the cost of capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat is the purpose of getting the input methodologies done ahead of time\u2014so that there is certainty. I will not pick and choose which one I might prefer for any particular purpose, but we will have an input methodology that deals with asset valuations, and there will be certainty. That is the key point of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022412f537374e74f5c890b592aa20bd5bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412f537374e74f5c890b592aa20bd5bb\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Commerce Amendment Bill is highly complex legislation in two parts. One can mount sustainable criticism as to why that was done, because it clearly carries with it the potential to stifle debate, with a significant number of subparts in each part. I really wonder at the utility of prolonging the Committee stage. Instead I flag what might be called some high-level issues that caused various stages of the select committee process to pause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe major part of the substantive change, of course, is in Part 1. Little can really be said of Part 2 because it just effects a number of amendments to other pieces of legislation. So I will focus on Part 1 for a moment and talk about the main changes. Clearly, as has been signalled before, a significant change was the introduction of a purpose statement specifically for the purpose of the Act, to give clearer guidance to the courts and the regulator that the aim of regulation is to promote investment. It is very easy to forget that. We are not seeking in this particular bill to stifle business activity. Rather, it is the opposite, and that is to promote investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe main changes are that for the first time there is a clear emphasis on the importance of incentives for regulated businesses to invest, there is a requirement for the Commerce Commission to clearly set out the regulatory rules, which are called \u201Cinput methodologies\u201D, with all their complications applying to these businesses, and to complete this work by a nominated date in the legislation. These rules are to be subject to merits review, and clearly specifying the rules will greatly improve certainty and predictability for businesses and improve business confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOne of the other changes the bill makes is that it allows what one could call \u201Cfit for purpose\u201D regulation, such as information disclosure and this negotiate and arbitrate regime as alternatives to full price control. When it comes time to speak about Subpart 11, relating to airports, I will perhaps make some comment about that. Another thing it does, of course, is provide a much simpler and more predictable regime for electricity lines businesses, removing the threat of relatively heavy-handed regulation for minor breaches of thresholds, and with time limits for commission decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is a more appropriate regime of information disclosure for small, locally consumer-owned electricity lines business, where, as Mr Power has said, the customers are essentially the owners of the business. That should\u2014should\u2014lower their compliance costs and result in savings to consumers. There is an enhanced regime for gas pipelines that enables them to propose a price path to the commission, and there is a more robust information disclosure regime for three airports: Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch\u2014those international airports with monitoring by the Commerce Commission. Mr Tisch has said that that was controversial. The current regime, contained in the Airport Authorities Act, is seen by the airlines to be satisfactory. Not so, the airport companies would say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ELet me just talk about some of the issues that detained us for a short time. The first was the time line for preparation and consultation of input methodologies. This is complex stuff. It centres on new section 52U, in clause 4. But, generally, I would describe the key process requirements in this way. First of all, the commission has to publish a notice of its intention to begin work on an input methodology, including the process to be followed and the proposed time frames. Second, it must subsequently publish a draft input methodology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThen it has to give interested parties a reasonable opportunity to give their views on that draft. Then it must have regard to any views received; to that end, it may hold conferences. The commission has said it intends to hold one formal conference on all input methodologies by, I think, February 2010. Next, the commission is required to determine all the input methodologies specified in new section 52S, in clause 4, for electricity lines, gas pipelines, and airports by 30 June 2010, with an ability for limited extensions. So it is a complex time line. I do not doubt it will place the commission under some logistic pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESuggestions were offered by officials that there was a case for additional input methodologies under new section 52S. In fact, it is my recollection that the departmental report recommended two additional input methodologies. But there are some problems with that, and I think those problems were fairly noted by the Commerce Commission and have resulted in a position where that is not now to be advanced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere was also an issue, which centres on new section 52Z(2), in clause 4, about whether new evidence should be permitted on appeals, because that provision prevents parties from introducing new evidence or information in appeals on input methodologies. That is a reasonable approach to take, because it should discourage gaming, and it should, in particular, require parties to put up their best evidence and experts in front of the commission. This gaming that occurs in appellate processes is not uncommon. One need only think about what happens in the world of resource management with the Environment Court to see that it is a legitimate concern, and it is a concern that is appropriately addressed in the Commerce Amendment Bill. Of course, the downside of not allowing new evidence is probably small, because there are no facts or changed circumstances at issue. So, presumably, the High Court Rules will provide a sufficient basis of protection in respect of the introduction of new evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOthers have spoken on these issues of appeals on final decisions in addition to appeals on input methodologies, and I do not want to deal with that. We were concerned, however, about the prospect of delays occurring in the High Court in the hearing of appeals on merits and appeals relating to input methodologies. I do not think that issue has been well addressed. The reality is, as others have said, that the courts are open to everyone, like the Ritz Hotel\u2014those who have money can make their way determinedly through the processes, but for many there are huge costs, and the delays associated with cases reaching trial are a compounding effect. So I do not believe we have that issue right, and it may well have to be looked at in the period of the next Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EMembers of the Commerce Committee will recall the debate on the issues around whether the commission should be able to appoint itself as an arbitrator under the negotiate and arbitrate regime. The reasons for not allowing the commission to appoint itself an arbitrator are several. They include, clearly, the fact that the commission is a regulator not an arbitrator, so if the commission appoints itself arbitrator it is making regulatory decisions, becoming almost a judge and jury in its own cause, we might say. The second point is that the commission may well be vulnerable to review as an arbitrator, and it may well be seen as conflicted, having made the rules for negotiation or arbitration. I guess there may be a reduced likelihood of the parties reaching a negotiated settlement, and the commission may be perceived by one party or another as likely to make arbitral awards favourable to that party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is a big issue, as Mr Tisch has said, about whether airports should be included in the bill. It is right to say that I believe all members of the committee were lobbied determinedly by the different interests in that regard. The view that carried force on the day was that the major airports do have strong natural monopoly characteristics. The select committee was treated to an interesting statistic from Infratil showing that that company aimed to provide its shareholders with a consistent return of 20 percent per annum over the long term. That is a very high rate of return for a low-risk infrastructure business that is not facing competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is also possible to argue quite credibly that the information disclosure regime under the Airport Authorities Act is ineffectual. There are no input methodologies on how information must be compiled for disclosure, and there is no monitoring and analysis by an expert body. As we look back at the history of disputes between airlines and airport companies, we would have to say that those disputes have been expensive, protracted, and, in the context of the court processes that have followed, not really satisfactory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo information disclosure is a very light-handed form of regulation. It is proper to record that other OECD countries apply much more stringent regulation to their major airports even though their airports are subject to more competitive pressures from, for example, high-speed public transport than New Zealand\u2019s airports. There are other matters that I could talk about, but I identify those as the issues that the Commerce Committee looked at with the closest consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc76a35b3af4bf2a3a6a3501e2b8809\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc76a35b3af4bf2a3a6a3501e2b8809\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I want to carry on with a point made by my colleague Dr Worth. The Commerce Amendment Bill does not actually tie in, in terms of pricing methodology and disclosure. Airports will be able to treat information disclosure separately from pricing, and will be able to continue to set prices as they see fit. That will be one of the challenges the Commerce Commission has, and we will be looking very closely at what the regulations are and how this provision will work. I say to the Minister of Commerce that I do not think it is as clear-cut as we would like it to be. There are some huge challenges, and I mention that one in particular\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257313bcba8eb46bd8e61dcbb766cb01d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Which is why the Commerce Commission will handle that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52d9f8db2c0433db3befbe5ea494c9e\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Sure, I appreciate that. The other thing that is of concern is in regard to the transitional provisions, and I mentioned it in the second reading. Section 56G(1) in clause 4 states: \u201CAs soon as practicable after any new price for a specified airport service is set in or after 2012 by a supplier of the service, the Commission must\u2014\u201D, and it goes through the requirements. If the commission decides there is monopoly pricing, it can recommend to the Minister that an inquiry be held, and an inquiry could take anywhere between 2 and 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cb0e34a74f4866a5baa23506d5c4e8\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Like it does today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bfbc92c2df84812b7e575055dde96d5\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, so it could be 2015 or later before anything is done to address a situation of overcharging that could well be occurring. That will be a huge issue, in that the bill is trying to satisfy that concern on the part of airlines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe other point is that, with that delay, it is unlikely that any changes would take place before 2016-17. So there is a huge lead time. I understand how that works, but I flag that these are things that National members will be looking at and monitoring closely. We like regulation in that it is light-handed; we do not want a heavy-handed approach. But it has to be fair and equitable in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 244 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002250d04bddebd9493485f70ad034bc6d09\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000343\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000344\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022865db3be67cd4724b4e57c7e458a0ee2\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216c85665c9454bfb9e14aa4afd59b1a5\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000347\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 244 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000348\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000349\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7356d1a4f404e3ebb4dbb595e1db219\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022204856cdf5f44843a402745fbb05327f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022204856cdf5f44843a402745fbb05327f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E We know that any discussion in the Committee of the whole House in respect of clauses 1 and 2 are wide-ranging and comprehensive debates, and do not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5d24e4c0a16483f8e487d2275e921e9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Since when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282347b9773374fb995ec086c763e0f3d\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: They are, as opposed to the particular discussions that the Committee may have had, in some detail, surrounding Parts 1 and 2. It is not my intention to engage in a wide-ranging debate on clauses 1 and 2, because it would seem that the Committee\u2014apart from, I think, one party\u2014is largely in agreement with the provisions. We have canvassed in detail many of the matters relating to the appeal provisions in respect of price setting and paths for price setting for electricity lines companies and gas companies. We have had lengthy discussions this afternoon about issues surrounding Part 2, although I believe we had those discussions in the Committee stage on Part 1 when talking about airports and airlines. We have canvassed matters around consumer-owned lines companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe have talked about the capacity of the Commerce Commission to deliver the input methodologies at the time they are required. We have had further discussions about merits review, and the potential for gaming and how that issue has been dealt with. We have had further discussions on matters relating to the purpose clause\u2014in particular, the Minister addressed the Committee about the confidence she has that the consumer of tomorrow is protected by the purpose clause being wide enough. We will see how that goes. We have had further discussions, and heard from the Minister, about the Supplementary Order Paper. The Minister has addressed some of those matters and given the Committee an undertaking that the Commerce Commission has the capacity to deliver those input methodologies within the appropriate time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis has been a slightly shortened debate, I think for only two reasons. The first, as I said earlier, is the near-unanimous support for the legislation by parties in the House, but, more particularly, because the select committee process itself was a detailed and painstaking process, which saw us move through many of these issues in a very, very detailed way. So for that reason there is probably not a lot I can add to this debate, except to say that overall what we will be looking for when this legislation is eventually bedded down, is that the intention of the legislation is actually occurring. Peculiar to this legislation, that will not necessarily be so in the short term for the large bulk of the matters that are passing through the House this afternoon, but we believe on this side of the Chamber that there will be many opportunities during the course of these provisions being enacted and being utilised, for us to stop and pause, not in a legislative sense but in a policy sense, to ensure that what this legislation is intended to do is actually occurring. Of course, that is always the test\u2014the theory being applied in practice. Having said all of that, I will leave the matter there, unless any other member, including the Minister, has a contribution to make at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220eff883d153541e3905378bea71f2837\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002205bf0d5e54d14e8bb532d34c135fc995\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205bf0d5e54d14e8bb532d34c135fc995\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Commerce Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The bill is a major rewrite of the price control provisions in Parts 4 and 4A and in certain parts of Part 5 of the Commerce Act 1986. Its overall aim is to provide protection for consumers against excessive prices and poor quality when buying what are important infrastructural services where there is no real prospect of competition, while at the same time ensuring that suppliers have incentives to invest, innovate, and improve efficiency. The bill draws upon best practice overseas to achieve these objectives. In particular, it seeks to ensure that regulation is not imposed unnecessarily, and that where it is required, it is applied in the most efficient way to promote the long-term interests of consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe main changes in the bill can be summarised as follows. First, a purpose statement has been set for price control, for the first time. That will ensure that any regulation is well focused and delivers on objectives, including providing incentives for investment. Second, the tests and processes for deciding whether, and how, to regulate have been improved. An inquiry by the Commerce Commission will need to show there is little or no likelihood of competition, that there is scope for the exercise of substantial market power, and that the benefits of any regulation will materially exceed the costs. Third, the Commerce Commission will be required, as a priority, to set clear and explicit rules called input methodologies, relating to regulatory decisions. This is designed to give businesses certainty about what to expect and to improve their confidence in the regulatory regime. Fourth, lighter-handed forms of regulation are made available as fit-for-purpose alternatives to price control. They include information disclosure, a negotiate-arbitrate regime, and a default customised regime. Lastly, the bill puts in place improved approaches for the three sectors that are already subject to economic regulation\u2014namely, electricity lines, gas pipelines, and airports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill will also improve confidence in the integrity of regulatory decisions by providing for appeals to the High Court, assisted by lay experts on input methodologies, on final decisions made by the commission. Conducting appeals on input methodologies, as I mentioned in the Committee stage, will present some novel challenges for the High Court, and some concerns have been expressed about this. However, the statutory time frames for determining methodologies and lodging appeals mean that the timing of the appeal process is likely to be known well in advance. That will give ample time to appoint suitable and available experts to the panel of lay members. It will also enable the High Court to consider the best way to optimise the appellate process so that it is fair to all, while dealing efficiently with the issues raised in appeals. Once this legislation is passed, as I said again in the Committee stage, I intend to write to the Rules Committee, which essentially makes the rules for the processes to be followed by the High Court, to encourage it to develop appropriate processes for the best consideration of these input methodology appeals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, can I again thank the officials who worked on this bill. They have worked tirelessly on very complex legislation. Can I also pay tribute to all members of the Commerce Committee. In particular, I am going to single out Simon Power for being a very willing and able individual who has worked very closely with us to ensure that the bill has been able to make its way to the House in better shape than when it was first introduced to the select committee. This was a good process, and it has been contributed to by the many, many submissions that were received on it, as well. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022567b649990a241489d5a8a83bbd071d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022567b649990a241489d5a8a83bbd071d6\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E The Commerce Amendment Bill, of course, has been before the Committee of the whole House in recent moments, and now we find ourselves moving swiftly through the third reading. There is no need to be concerned about that pace in this particular instance. Normally speaking, the Opposition is opposed to procedural urgency motions, and we remain opposed to this one, but this legislation, by and large, does have the support of the very large majority of members in this Chamber. I thank the Minister for involving the National Party in discussions and briefings about the bill from the start. It certainly made understanding some of the complex issues contained in this legislation easier to deal with, and I am grateful for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThere is, of course, a very complex make-up to this bill, as we have heard on the second reading report back and in the Committee stage. Many of the matters have been canvassed by the Minister in her speech to this third reading. I do not intend to cover off those matters again, because they have been covered off a number of times in the last 24 hours. I will just emphasise, though, a comment that I made in the Committee of the whole House\u2014that is, although legislators are put in a position of having to foresee over a 2, 3, or 5-year period how legislation they have passed in this House will impact on industry and consumers, we never have a crystal ball. That means that many of the things we pass into law can have an effect we do not anticipate. That is why it is important to keep a close watch on the Commerce Commission\u2019s work in the area of determining these input methodologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe inability for legislators to see the future is also why it is important to keep a close watch on the Rules Committee and the way it will be instructed or checked on by the Minister, and that is why it is important to keep a watching brief on consumer-based lines companies, to make sure that the regulatory framework surrounding them, which is different from the one being proposed in this legislation, is effective, and that consumers are not disadvantaged, and long-term investment is not disadvantaged, by that as well. That is why it is important, under Part 2, to make sure that the delicate balance that has existed for so long in this portfolio between airlines and airports is also looked at pretty carefully, and monitored in terms of information disclosure regimes that are being put in place with this legislation. That is an argument that I have no doubt will continue past the passing of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe inability to see the future is also why it is important to spend some time, from time to time, making sure that the purpose clause of commerce legislation is updated and reviewed, and that we can make sure that all the processes involved in that are clearly monitored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI also have one last point in respect of something I raised very early in this process; it relates to the merits review process. The Minister, rightly in my view, recommended to the Committee that we have a two-stage appeal process\u2014firstly, at the point where import methodologies are determined and, secondly, at the point of final implementation. The fact that initial determinations will stay in place, if indeed any appeal rights or merit review rights are exercised, provides for a minimisation of any potential for gaming in these areas, and that is important. The Minister was right when she said in her opening remarks that legislation in the commerce area is designed to provide certainty. That applies not only to businesses under regulations themselves but to the consumers who are in receipt of the goods and services produced by those businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Amendment Bill enjoys the support of the National Party, has done through all stages, and will continue to do so through the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022096af780954f4b1994234672d3153fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022096af780954f4b1994234672d3153fe3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E In the minute that has been allocated to me, it will be very difficult to traverse the work\u2014the thorough work\u2014of the Commerce Committee on the Commerce Amendment Bill. But I will say that, as the previous member outlined, anything to do with commerce and competition requires a very delicate balance. If we get it wrong, if the balance is too heavy in one way or too light in the other, it creates perverse outcomes. That is no more so than with electricity. We know that electricity lines companies are monopolies, so if we regulate them in too tough a way, it then means that boards do not have to do much and they blame the Government\u2014if the lights go out it is the fault of the Government for setting the regulations at too tough a level, and for not allowing enough retained earnings for putting back into capital expenditure. If companies are regulated too lightly, then there is the opportunity for a monopoly to gouge, and for consumers, who have no other alternative means of access to electricity, to have to pay monopoly rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis is a very delicate business, and in my view the select committee worked extremely diligently on this legislation to improve the balance in a number of areas. I think the committee worked extremely well, and I think that as a result, the balance in this area, which will have to be looked at continually, from time to time, has been much improved. I support the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fef13b32c76047ddb9e0296b29043959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fef13b32c76047ddb9e0296b29043959\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The Commerce Amendment Bill has been an interesting exercise. It has been a fundamental rewrite of the Commerce Act\u2019s provisions relating to regulation of the sectors with little or no competition or prospect of competition. The new purpose statement in Part 4, in new section 52A(1) substituted in clause 4, states that the bill\u2019s purpose is \u201Cto promote the long-term benefit of consumers \u2026\u201D, such that suppliers \u201C(a) have incentives to innovate and to invest, \u2026 (b) have incentives to improve efficiency and provide services at a quality \u2026 , (c) share with consumers the benefits of efficiency gains \u2026, and (d) are limited in their ability to extract excessive profits.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe bill we have debated provides the Government with many more tools for regulating, other than the imposition of price controls, including information disclosure, negotiation or arbitration of a regime, a price control path, and customised price control. Of course, the test will be whether to regulate, and that has changed. There will be only one process after deciding whether to regulate and how to regulate, rather than two separate processes. This is very complex law, it is very technical, with wide-ranging implications, I have to say, that will make it difficult for policy makers to predict the outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENational will be watching very closely as we monitor the progress of this bill, under the Commerce Commission, to see that the points we have raised will be realised. There was a question mark over resources and how the changes will be able to be implemented in the time frame that has been set. I have been assured by the Minister, during the Committee stage, that the time frames for the transitional changes are shorter than have certainly been mooted before. That is a good sign. However, we will be monitoring those as we go through. Good commercial law depends very much on sound and reliable implementation by both the independent agencies and Ministers. With those points considered, National is happy to support the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fdc732ef1cba4ba59b636d7de59a0d2f\u0022\u003EElectricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002290c7ec0080ac402f9c2b75dc91bf12f3\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022666e1b1fc63440629d359cd6751e23ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022666e1b1fc63440629d359cd6751e23ab\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Energy: I move, That the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill be now read a second time. The Electricity Industry Reform Act of 1998 required ownership separation between electricity lines companies and electricity supply companies in order to facilitate competition in the electricity industry. I actually recall being in the House when that particular, interesting legislation was passed, and I recall Max Bradford being the Minister responsible for it. I also recall the promises of lower costs of electricity, but that was not to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason for this amendment bill is to follow up on amendments passed in 2001 and 2003, which allowed electricity lines businesses to own generation up to specified quantities if they complied with corporate separation and arm\u2019s-length rules. This bill seeks to encourage lines companies to invest in permitted generation, particularly renewable generation. It proposes to achieve that by relaxing some of the corporate separation and arm\u2019s-length rules relating to generation and retailing, and by allowing electricity lines businesses to sell more electricity, to hedge the output of their generation, and to invest in generation and retail without limit outside their own lines areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOf course, this bill has been to a select committee since the time it was introduced, so I feel that that is sufficient for my contribution on the second reading of this important legislation. I recommend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022feb44fdb5d60469487cc400c1b95f8a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feb44fdb5d60469487cc400c1b95f8a2\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E It is very interesting that the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill, which we are having a second reading on now, is in line with the National Party\u2019s policy at the last election in 2005. Here we have a bill that will be passed, and National is supporting this bill because it is something that we have identified as being important. It is actually consistent with National\u2019s 2005 policy that would have allowed line companies to enter into generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ELines companies have an interest in electricity distribution. They also have very stringent limits on what they are able to invest in, at the present time. Some have the ability to invest in generation, and this bill implements policy changes, firstly, to make it easier for owners of lines companies to sell the output of the generation they are permitted to own, under the 2001 and 2004 amendments to the Electricity Industry Reform Act 1998, often referred to as EIRA. The objective is to encourage owners of lines businesses to invest in permitted generation, especially generation from renewable sources. That is fine; that is something we subscribe to. It will be achieved by allowing retail sales of electricity to go up to 100 percent of the nominal annual output capacity of permitted generation, by allowing trading and financial hedges, by allowing grid-connected generation to count as local generation in certain circumstances, by requiring at least one independent director and not permitting executive directors, by allowing the same person to be a manager of both companies up to a threshold of 30 megawatts, and by allowing the cost of corporate separation and compliance with arm\u2019s-length rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe second policy change is to narrow the scope of ownership separation requirements in order to focus on the geographic areas where there is potential for the exercise of market power and anti-competitive practices\u2014namely, where lines and supply are co-located. And the third main change is to amend the definition of \u201Crenewables\u201D to include all renewable energy sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe have just debated another bill that has had its third reading, the Commerce Amendment Bill, which adds value to the points we are now debating under the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. Year in and year out, we have power shortages. Not a year goes by when there is not some concern about whether there will be enough electricity, over the winter periods in particular, to be able to have the lights on in our homes in Auckland and to be able to keep industries operating. Even this year, with having experienced so much rain in the Waikato, we find that the Southern Lakes are still below their normal levels. Yet given that we have had so much torrential rain, one would expect that the Southern Lakes would have had the water. But that has not been the case, and it has not been the case for over the last 9 years. One of the things in terms of generation, and in terms of the whole energy sector, is that this Government has made it far too difficult for investment in these areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226597618d83ad4d1fb8d7e74f4b74e21d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Bollocks!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a620258ffaae40239635d0d39e8ec159\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it has, because in the 9 years of the last National Government we put in 1,600 megawatts\u20141,600 megawatts of new electricity came on line. What has it been under Labour? What has it been under Labour\u2019s 9 years? It has been less than 700 megawatts. So why is there no generation? Why are we having these challenges each winter, as it comes up, when people talk about shortages of power and of maybe having to cut back? I will tell members the statistics; I am not making them up: in the 9 years of a National Government we put on line 1,600 megawatts\u20141,600 megawatts went into the grid so that we could have security of supply in our homes, in our businesses, and wherever we live. This Government, which is on its last legs now, has put in only 700 megawatts or less over the last 9 years. That is an absolute insult, when energy is part of that infrastructural area we need to be so mindful of, whether in terms of energy, roading, or broadband. This Government is found wanting in those three areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ELet us put this in the energy distribution concept\u2014electricity distribution is important in underpinning New Zealand\u2019s economy. The Government has $6.3 billion worth of assets, and that compares with Transpower\u2019s, which is separate at $2.4 billion. There are 1.9 million connected consumers. There are 149,000 kilometres of lines, and that compares with Transpower\u2019s 11,000 kilometres. The forecast investment is $3 billion to $5 billion over the next 5 to 10 years, to meet the needs of consumers. At the moment the demand is of $3 billion to $5 billion per year, and hopefully with this bill we will be able to achieve those figures, because at the moment we are falling far short. Demand for electricity is growing as the economy grows, while spare capacity networks have been consumed and assets are ageing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe digital age is driving demand for a more reliable energy supply. Our prices have declined by 4 percent in real terms since 2001. The electricity distribution sector can have an important role to play in distributed generation and fibre optics networks if regulation will allow, and that is certainly what we are trying to achieve here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhat are the potential benefits of this bill and of the Commerce Amendment Bill? There will be some certainty that there will be the $3 billion to $5 billion of new distribution investment over the next decade, which could be distributed in a timely manner. The investment will improve security of supply through certainty over longer-range planning. It will increase reliability and quality. We will see new technology implemented sooner and more often. There will be a lower cost of the regulatory environment, and something we are always very mindful of is that the costs associated, and any regulation that goes with those costs, are fair and equitable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe new regulatory regime will provide the environment for lines businesses to improve efficiency of energy use\u2014for example, by reducing line losses, upgrading demand sites and management services, and installing smart meters. A number of technologies will become available to be implemented under a new regulatory regime, which of course is to increase the distribution generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EStrong consumer protection still remains with this bill, and the bill will be beneficial to smaller lines companies. There are 28 lines companies, and 16 of them are owned by trusts. The bill will be beneficial to smaller lines companies, like those on the West Coast in Buller, where my colleague Chris Auchinvole comes from. Those companies will be the beneficiaries of this legislation. The bill frees up small companies to get engaged in electricity generation, thereby improving their income and securities of supply. It limits, of course, their independence on imposed costs from other generators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWithout this bill becoming law it will be extremely difficult for us to progress and to provide that security of supply that we believe is so important. As I said, this is in line with what National said in its policy of 2005. We said there that our policy was to allow lines companies to enter into generation. The select committee has made only minor changes to the substance of the bill, and the changes were made unanimously. National is happy to support the second reading, and we look forward to the Committee stage shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002262412150a13c4db295f15d51b14dbbb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262412150a13c4db295f15d51b14dbbb2\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E As the Associate Minister of Energy it is a pleasure to rise to support the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. I gave the first reading speech on behalf of the Minister, the Hon David Parker, on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003ECan I just ask the previous speaker from the National Party, whose conservation policy was announced this afternoon by the Labour Party, whether National might announce another energy policy, and whether National will sell the electricity assets that belong to the three State-owned enterprises belonging to the people of New Zealand. Will National sell them? There is absolute silence. The second issue is whether National\u2019s policy is to go nuclear. Those are the two issues that the people of New Zealand are really interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EIn talking about this bill, I say that it is absolutely needed, simply because of the mess that was inherited and the number of things that, over the years, have proven to be deficiencies, which we are now addressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI commend the Hon David Parker, and I commend the select committee. I think the bill is excellent, and I am sure the House will pass it\u2014perhaps not unanimously, but all the thinking people in the House will pass it\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00227b3edc4dbf304d408e377a33fdb88c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b3edc4dbf304d408e377a33fdb88c85\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker who has just resumed his seat is Harry Duynhoven, who just typifies the concern the public have. Labour is now so bereft of any ideas that it resorts to announcing National\u2019s policy. Labour has nothing to say. The member had nothing to say about the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. It is amazing that 9 long years ago the Labour Government thumped the table over what Max Bradford did. Does this bill reverse anything of the 1998 electricity industry reforms? What happened to Labour\u2019s vision for energy security for New Zealanders? Where is the vision? I want to ask this question on behalf of the New Zealand public, particularly the good people who live in Botany Downs who told me they are sick of hearing, every winter, a debate about whether there will be power cut, or a blackout. Would the passage of this bill save New Zealanders from facing the awful threat of power cuts and blackouts every year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational will support this bill, although I doubt very much that sneaking this little bill in under urgency\u2014in the midst of the vacuum, the total lack of vision concerning security of energy supply for New Zealanders\u2014will save anyone from reliving the nightmare of the last 9 years. This is a very timid approach to electricity industry reform, but, unfortunately, like the rest of the public, we have stopped expecting any vision or any bold movements. A little bit of an improvement is almost welcome because, unfortunately, there is nothing on offer. So I just want to tell Labour members that although they are continuing to run out of ideas, they should stop stealing National\u2019s policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure for me to take a short call on this short bill. It shows a lack of vision and I think it deserves only a short, sharp rebuttal from members on this side of the House, because I do not believe that rushing this bill through under urgency will convince New Zealanders that the 9-year nightmare of threats of power cuts will be resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00228f7eecf025484c1e8af272753d12264f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f7eecf025484c1e8af272753d12264f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me make it quite clear that New Zealand First supports this bill. We will support it right through the process unless something major changes during the Committee stage. But we see it as another piecemeal attempt to add to the Electricity Industry Reform Act of 1998; it is a piecemeal attempt to patch it up. National is claiming credit. In 2005 it wanted lines companies to get involved in generation. We suggested that to Max Bradford in 1998. We said he should not close the door completely on the lines companies. And what did he do? He closed the door completely on them. Let us face it, the Max Bradford reforms worked at the time simply for one reason only: we had more capacity than there was demand for electricity. It set up four State-owned generators. Contact Energy was independent but owned by the State at that time, and three new ones came on board, so there were four competing with TrustPower Ltd to sell electricity to the country, and they had more to sell than New Zealanders were using. So there was downward pressure on prices. But, gradually, bit by bit, that was eroded. The demand went up, and the capacity was not coming on stream. We were told at the time that we needed to bring in 150 megawatts or more per year. Lindsay Tisch told us that in the last 9 years 700 megawatts have come on stream. I do not know whether he is correct, but I know it is a good deal less than 150 megawatts per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a3fc8843c44508b66bbaddf1161fad\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: It is less than 700. The figure\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223855ffd15c844c68a1945c84157596dd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will take the member\u2019s word, but if it is not correct, it is close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8bf246d509454798b8273af0474b44\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: I wouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060a2753c3d948cfa6ddaeb178d7c60b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion I will, because I think he is on the right side of it. I say to this House that concerns around electricity are major issues with the public. There is the issue of security of supply and the issue of price. [Interruption] I think we are having a two-way conversation across the Chamber in the middle of the debate. Electricity is so much of an issue that New Zealand First has had more correspondence on this issue in the last few months than ever before. The price keeps going up. We are told we have a competitive market, but the public are not seeing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First passed a remit at its recent convention. Our members want to investigate the feasibility of amalgamating the three State-owned generators\u2014that is, Mighty River Power, Meridian Energy, and Genesis Power. New Zealand First members want to give consideration to the feasibility of amalgamating those three. To answer Harry Duynhoven, I say I have had more correspondence in recent times on this country having nuclear power. It is not a position New Zealand First supports, but I have to say we have had more correspondence in recent times about going nuclear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c25e991cbd00478eb09f2602edffe60f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s more expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1be3640457f46c7b97d210df9be3a2b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is good to hear the Minister of Finance say it is more expensive. But people are concerned about the environment and the cost. That is where we measure the debate, and I would take the Minister of Finance on over that. I am not advocating it. New Zealand First\u2019s position is to stay nuclear free, but I am just pointing out the concerns of the public. They want the concerns of the electricity industry addressed. This bill goes some way towards that. It allows lines companies to get involved in generation, which is something we said to Max Bradford, as I recall, in 1996 or 1997. So it is all very well for Pansy Wong to say National had the idea in 2005. We said, and I think Labour also said at the time: \u201CDon\u2019t cut it straight down the middle.\u201D This bill allows the lines companies to have more generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2e4b399f90a4d829a418cfba5f4a970\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Tinkering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228121806a8be94299a697ab20520d65d6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member should read the bill if she wants to know what it says. This bill will certainly get New Zealand First\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ELet me tell the House what we should be trying to achieve as politicians in terms of energy. We want an abundance of supply. We do not want to keep worrying year after year about whether the lakes are low. We want an abundance of supply. We want a reasonable price. If we have a market, then we want a genuine market, where companies compete and bring the prices down. That is not happening. We want an electricity supply on a sustainable basis\u2014I think the National members agree with that, and I know that my Labour colleagues agree\u2014and, of course, we want it to be as environmentally friendly as possible. Hence the public concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESome members of the public, probably only a small minority, are writing in more and more saying that we should look more closely at nuclear power. That is not my position and it is not my party\u2019s position, but we are facing realities. There are some people out there who want to take a closer look at doing that. Just to dismiss that idea and to simply say that we will amend things here in a piecemeal attempt in the Max Bradford legislation of 1998, or whenever it was, is a way forward, but I say that it is not the long-term way forward. We should be looking more closely at the way we supply electricity in this country, and it may well be that we will have to amalgamate the three big State-owned players or to show a little bit more vision. I do not know the answer; all I know is that this bill will make an improvement. But whatever we say, this is a piecemeal, patch-up job. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002226e977c323b7439a97869d7b7744aa10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226e977c323b7439a97869d7b7744aa10\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I listened with interest to the previous speaker, Peter Brown, as I always do. I remember that I followed him in the first reading debate on this bill. I am not quite sure what it is about this Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill, but here we are, debating it in urgency. I noticed from checking back on the first reading speeches that that debate seems to have been held in urgency, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there is a great need for urgency in electricity matters\u2014a great need\u2014and a very dilatory approach has been taken to ensuring that we have a secure supply of electricity in New Zealand. I would vary slightly from the view of the previous speaker that we have to have an abundant supply. It is a little bit difficult to convince electricity-generating companies that they should have capital at risk of being used. I think that what we need is a sufficient supply with appropriate back-up where required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8164711434404ebf702fd58704561f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear! Absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb79974e97a489fb28287641e138bc6\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThank you very much.\u201D, I say to Dr Cullen. I thought of that all by myself. But it does follow business logic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, costs to deferral. If we look at the sad situation of the Dobson dam, which was put off for 8 years before it was morphed into the Arnold River scheme, we see that there was a huge loss of opportunity cost in that. But the reality is that even though the project now has its approvals and its permits, it is not guaranteed, because the company involved in building it still has to consider whether it is the most attractive option for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIt is a delicate situation, but it has not been helped by the figures given to us by my colleague Lindsay Tisch, who mentioned just how short the present Government has been in producing electricity generation over the nearly 9 years of its tenure. The Minister of Energy can wax as enthusiastic as he likes about all the activity that is planned for the future current compliant projects, but even he has to acknowledge\u2014and he does\u2014that there was a considerable lag during the middle years of this Government\u2019s tenure. Perhaps saying \u201Cmiddle years\u201D is a little unkind, because it signifies that there was a beginning and that there might be an end fairly shortly. But there was a pause, and that pause has not been without consequence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIf we look at the Tasman end of West Coast-Tasman, we see that there are whole industries up there that drop shifts in the winter to help conserve power, which restricts their usage. Consistently now, every 4 years, we seem to have this stricture on power. Apart from that, one of the consequences is that new companies cannot really start up unless they can anticipate having a secure supply. That is where we think this bill will help, and National is very happy to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is to better ensure that costs and prices in the electricity industry are subject to downward pressure, that the benefits of inefficient electricity pricing flows through to all classes of consumer, and that new investments and generation from renewable energy sources occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EQuite apart from the other areas, this legislation will be of considerable benefit to West Coast-Tasman, which has smaller lines companies, such as Westpower, and Buller Electricity in Buller. The mission statement of Westpower specifies what it does. It distributes electricity, generates electricity, and provides power systems, electrical contracting, asset management services, and electrical engineering consultancy services. It actually has quite a humming business there. The ElectroNet part of its business has about 120 very skilled employees. Both Westpower and Buller Electricity exist for the community and are owned by the community, but the present legislative and regulatory charges on companies the size of Buller Electricity and the larger Westpower company are considerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis bill will allow small lines companies to become engaged in generation, particularly hydro schemes, as the bill specifies that hydro power is renewable. Without this legislation, if Westpower wished to engage in building a hydro scheme, it would have to seek a special exemption from the Commerce Commission. This costs a load of hooch and is prohibitive for a small enterprise even to consider. The bill allows companies to look at having hydro schemes for an increased security of supply and a reduction of supply costs. Let us remember when we look at electricity that there is a 20 to 30 percent peak time loss of electricity simply in its transmission. Where it comes up from Lake Coleridge and across Mount Horrible through into the West Coast at peak times, we have a 20 to 30 percent heat loss in transmission. In North Canterbury, Marlborough, Tasman, and the West Coast 73 percent of the power used is brought in from outside the area. So we are almost guaranteeing that we will always have high transmission loss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe need to grow the telephone book on the West Coast, so we need development. Without power there will not be any development. We have 56 rivers, we have heaps of creeks, but we have limited reservoir capacity. New systems will probably depend on run-of-river operations taking full advantage of the renewable and ever-abundant rain resource that we enjoy so much down on the Coast. There are added advantages. Westpower, as I mentioned earlier, has a contract subsidiary company called ElectroNet. It employs 120 people, with a very high calibre, high level of skills. Building generation builds career paths in that sort of company. It is with pleasure that National supports this bill, which will none the less still require the National Party\u2019s revision of the Resource Management Act for this to be a truly useful initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022266e96c267a440a29b4750e80b2a03cb\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a42fab3cffa4c18a08617f5e9208b75\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d52d114d7182440c892dd018c3c6d167\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d52d114d7182440c892dd018c3c6d167\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to share with members some of the interesting points that have come out of this debate and out of this bill. I first acknowledge the support of the advisers who are here today, because we have had a number of bills, including the amendment to Commerce Act and the other power and energy ones, and from a layperson\u2019s point of view, it is difficult to get involved with and come to grips with some of these complex issues. I must say we have been impressed by them, and certainly I have been very mindful of their expertise. So I thank them on behalf of the National Party team. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI refer to clause 5, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, and I will look at the definition \u201Crenewable energy source\u201D. It relates to a comment I made in the second reading about power generation, which Peter Brown also picked up on\u2014on the amount of generation in megawatts that had been brought online alongside those plants that had been decommissioned. If we look at clause 5 we see that \u201Crenewable energy source\u201D means \u201Csolar, wind, hydro, geothermal, biomass, tidal, wave, ocean current sources, or any other energy source that occurs naturally and the use of which will not permanently deplete New Zealand\u2019s energy sources \u2026\u201D. I will not go through the rest of the definition, but, in essence, we are talking about renewable energy sources, and the genesis of this bill is about using as much renewable energy as we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo it was of interest when I spoke in the second reading to note that over the 9 years of the previous National Government, 1,600 megawatts of new generation came online, yet over the last 8 years under Labour less than 700 megawatts has come online. I will expand on that point, because it is relevant, and when we look at renewable energy sources we want to see where the new generation has come from. We have those that have been commissioned, and I will start back in 2000 when Contact Energy at \u014Ct\u0101huhu B, whose fuel type is gas, had a capacity of 380 megawatts. I will not go through them all, but Contact Energy at Te Rapa, in the year 2000, which is gas, had 44 megawatts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EJust so there is a reference point here, this information comes from the Ministry of Economic Development\u2019s Energy Data File of June 2008, at page 132. That is the source of the information, just in case some members may think I am making it up, which I am not. That is the source.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcc80511a80e4b78985dd332552146a8\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s unusual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d69f57de3d946b7b7fdb6f60b6da0cc\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not making it up, and the member will have an opportunity to articulate the Government\u2019s point of view if he wants to take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EHere is another one under gas\u2014Genesis Power at the Huntly project in 2004 had 40 megawatts. I was fortunate to be there for the commissioning when that came online. Also here we have Pan Pac in 2005. But let us look at those of geothermal fuel - type: Todd Energy at Ng\u0101wh\u0101, 2008, had 13 megawatts; Contact Energy at Wair\u0101kei had 20 megawatts; Mighty River Power at Kawerau, in 2008, had 90 megawatts; Meridian Energy at Manap\u014Duri, 2007, which is hydro, had 130 megawatts. With TrustPower, we have a wind one of 93 megawatts; Meridian Energy, at White Hill in 2007, whose fuel type is wind, had 58 megawatts; Genesis e3p, which I mentioned before, 2007, whose fuel type is gas, had 385 megawatts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at the whole essence of this bill, it is to say that we want to have renewable energy sources. It is really interesting to see where over the last few years\u2014in fact, from the year 2000 through to 2008\u2014the actual generation has come from. While there are new plants and what has come on stream, there have also been those plants that have been decommissioned. Since 2000\u2014once again the source is the same source\u2014Contact Energy in New Plymouth had plant decommissioned in 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d359eef2b3b24a368ba086cec9201357\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d359eef2b3b24a368ba086cec9201357\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 1 of the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill, I note from the report from the Commerce Committee that the submissions fell into two opposite, and probably irreconcilable, schools of thought when they were being considered in the committee. I guess with electricity one should expect a degree of polarisation, but there is a current of enthusiasm for progress associated with Part 1. It does not generate too many surprises, and the recommendations of the select committee incorporate the best of the submission points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI would like to follow on from my colleague Lindsay Tisch and select that same area of significance in Part 1\u2014the interpretation clause\u2014which will be of particular interest to electricity lines companies, consumers, generators, and others. The particular definition that is of interest is of a \u201Crenewable energy resource\u201D. This is a very significant part of the bill and determines that a renewable energy resource comprises\u2014and I will read out the list so that people are aware\u2014\u201Csolar, wind, hydro, geothermal, biomass, tidal, wave, ocean current sources, or any other energy source that occurs naturally and the use of which will not permanently deplete New Zealand\u2019s energy sources of that kind, because those sources are generally expected to be replenished by natural processes within 50 years or less of being used\u201D. The West Coast has 56 rivers and heaps of creeks, and this means that with all the necessary compliance conditions being met, and all the permits properly gained, it will not be necessary now for small lines companies to seek special approval from the Commerce Commission. This means smaller companies can be spared that additional cost and can now consider getting out of the poverty trap that they were previously in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe do need the electricity, and I would in some measure support the earlier comments of Mr Brown, having said that I did not quite agree that we need \u201Cabundant\u201D electricity. We have the abundant means of generating it already there, but we do need a sufficient amount of electricity to encourage new business and development. The latest projection of power requirement, or power demand increases, for an area such as the West Coast, which currently uses only 46 megawatts, with increased dairying, with increased mining\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cdda6b55ad24423ab29ca648ec6394f\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: What about the East Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37a9169bfee4db282ae10e8c3d693fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: We will come to the East Coast. I would have hoped the member would be the advocate for the East Coast. I am the advocate for the West Coast. But I have no objection to the East Coast. I have been up there a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022110fb04a570b4412aa123813cfdb96eb\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Damien O\u2019Connor does a really good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d97a0083c948ef8d9bbe703e129636\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I was not aware it was normal for Ministers in the chair to interject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec37c08edcd4bdbb5c085088c5a4766\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: They can interject, but I have my finger here and it goes on the button. Also, if they constantly interject then they will be pulled up by the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022982bef60651642b3af5bab26ce8df3a5\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I am more than happy to advocate for the West Coast, particularly in the absence of anybody else doing so. We need that electricity increase for the farms and mines that are developing in that area. It is an interesting list of approved energy sources, and I look forward to checking it again in a couple of years and seeing how many of the opportunities have been taken up by small-scale operations, hopefully fulfilling the purpose of this bill to drive down the cost and price of power. I note the combination of cost and price. That is a good idea so that the benefit of efficient electricity generation flows to all classes of consumers and to new investment in generation from renewable energy resources. Thank you, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022981796938c0f4c9c9f8026c2ee768ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022981796938c0f4c9c9f8026c2ee768ac6\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E According to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor is doing a good job on the West Coast. The only question I have, if he is doing such a good job, is why the Prime Minister and the president of the Labour Party have dumped him so far down the ranking on the party\u2019s list that has just come out. He is unlike our hard-working, effective member, the next MP for the West Coast, Chris Auchinvole, who makes so much sense. I think the people on the West Coast deserve a good, effective MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EGiven that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, is looking forward to taking a call, I would quite like him to stand up and explain to us a very important part of Part 1, namely clause 7. He is not very good at making comments about who is an effective MP, so maybe he could try to see whether he can do a better job of explaining the meaning of \u201Cinvolved\u201D. I say to colleagues that I have started to think that this bill will generate a lot of business for consultants and lawyers. Apparently there are all sorts of restrictions on who can trade with whom, so therefore we get down to the nitty-gritty and have a definition of involvement. New section 7(1), to be inserted by clause 7, states: \u201CFor the purposes of this Act, a person is involved\u2014(a) in a line if the person conveys electricity by the line, or owns or operates, directly or indirectly, the line or any other assets used in connection with the line, either alone or together with its associates and either on its own or another\u2019s behalf:\u201D. I would really like the Minister to take a call and say how legislation that defines involvement in such a way can actually help competition or incentivise anybody to generate more electricity. Actually, it gets more interesting. The definition goes on for about five more paragraphs, which I do not want to bore the public with. These paragraphs get into the question of how to measure involvement. So lawyers and everybody else need to get around the definition of involvement, and how to measure involvement? Is that not intriguing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis is very enlightened legislation, because there is an example included in the bill of a company called LineCo, which has a 20 percent shareholding in a joint-venture company that operates a connected 100 megawatt plant. That means that the company is involved in 20 megawatts of generation. As a very qualified accountant and a fellow member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, I can assure everybody who is listening that a 20 percent shareholding in a joint-venture company does not necessarily translate into 20 percent of the revenue generated, etc. The direct relationship is not very obvious, but apparently that is the formula that this company has to operate under. Therefore, as the example in the bill states, \u201CLineCo can sell to connected customers\u201D\u2014and that is interesting; we will have to look for a definition of who is qualified to be a connected customer\u2014\u201Call of the total annual nominal MWh capacity of the 20 MW. The selling cap does not change in proportion to the extent of LineCo\u2019s interest in the business selling the electricity.\u201D I can see that even the Minister has a perplexed look on his face. I am sure that the great listeners to this debate, like me, really want the Minister to take a call and explain to us, in very simple terms, what involvement is and how one measures it. Once we get hold of this definition and measurement, how can that actually encourage anybody? I can just see people lining up to get into this new legislation so they can get involved and measure how involved they get in generating the much-needed electricity to power those plants. I want the Minister to get up, take a call, and say how this definition and measurement of involvement can reassure people that there will be no power cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022458fcb281c87435e97899e9196eb2965\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022458fcb281c87435e97899e9196eb2965\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E If members look at the electricity sector over the last 9 years, they will see two features that show what the Labour Government has done to the sector. The first is the tremendous increase in the cost of electricity. The Labour Government has managed to increase the cost of electricity for ordinary New Zealanders. Somehow it has managed to take advantage of the economic conditions of New Zealand and sting the New Zealand public through higher energy costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe other thing that is quite interesting to look at in respect of the legacy of Labour and energy is that its policies have led to a situation where we have fewer renewables as a percentage of what this country actually produces in energy. At a time when any other country in the world is looking at increasing renewables, the Labour Government of New Zealand has spent 9 years reducing the percentage of renewables in New Zealand. Is that what members call good governance? In the last week of a dying Government, Labour has produced legislation to try to increase the renewable target. What kind of leadership is that? What kind of industry awareness is that? What kind of dedication to the environment is that? What kind of approach to energy issues is that? It is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand public deserves better from its Government. It deserves a Government that looks forward and takes action before issues become such a distinct problem, as has happened in respect of this Government. This Government has not taken the necessary actions over the last 9 years to encourage renewables. Any members who have been in touch with their constituencies would know that the individual lines companies want to have the ability to produce renewables. Many proposals in the Waikato, for example, have not got off the ground in recent years, and this Government is waiting until the last week to put some legislation forward. The last week is when it decides to do something about it. Well, it is far too little, far too late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe reality is that New Zealand has got into a situation now where we do not have the renewable component that we are used to. It is hurting us economically, and it will mean that we have to make a huge investment, under a National Government, to achieve that renewable target. What is more, New Zealanders have had to pay for that electricity over the last 9 years, and they have had to pay for dirty electricity, not for clean electricity that could have helped our brand as a country and could have helped New Zealand as a leader in the renewable energy stakes. No, this Government has charged New Zealanders more for electricity\u2014for dirty electricity. Is that good policy? It is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Government has had the opportunity over the last 9 years to make structural change, to make investment in electricity, and to make the progress that New Zealanders demand of a Government. But the New Zealand public did not get that. The Government did not provide that leadership. This bill is just one little attempt, in the last week, to try to provide that leadership. Well, it is not leadership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill is not leadership. Leadership is about providing some distinct vision about how we can make our renewable target a reality. That will come under the National Government, because we will not walk away from the tough issues, and we will not put up legislation in the last week of a term to try to find solutions. We will go out there and think about the issues, provide solutions, and make sure they are workable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279dae628f03e4cc48a0d34c5d8eca963\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will speak to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248025d5afbeb45778294df65aa712b1b\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: And I am\u2014to the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill. When we look at this bill, we see that it is far too little, far too late. It does not cover the issues that the public of New Zealand have had to deal with in the sector. The bill does not deal with the increasing costs that have been put on the public, and it does not deal with the lack of renewable electricity generation in this country. They are two immediate failures in the energy policy of this Government, and that shows the true intention of this Government not to provide a clean, green New Zealand where we can prosper and make the most of the physical attributes of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002245c92e31388c490fbdbcb3ea9a12c9fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c92e31388c490fbdbcb3ea9a12c9fd\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to conclude the points I was making in the first call I took, in respect of the numbers of megawatts that have been commissioned and those that have been decommissioned. I got to the point of identifying some of the plants that have come on stream since 2000. The amount of megawatts commissioned came to 1,942 megawatts, but for decommissioned plants the capacity amounted to 797 megawatts. So the net figure gain is very, very low compared with what it was back in the period of the previous National Government. I just wanted to finish off that point, in regard to the capacity we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EMy colleague David Bennett has talked about the amount of renewables, and how they have been reduced considerably, yet this bill is focused on renewable energy sources. I want to look at clause 7, \u201CMeaning of involved\u201D. There have been some changes here, because originally an issue that one of the submitters came up with was to say that we needed to amend the definition of \u201Cinvolved\u201D, and this concerns clause 7. The effect of the broad definition of \u201Cinvolved\u201D in the Act will be to include the generation capacity of the entire wind farm, or any generation, in a calculation of generator cap, even if the lines business owns only a small proportion of the wind turbine. I refer to one of the submissions, which was from WEL Networks, and it had this to say: \u201COne potential structure of ownership being considered by WEL Networks is the ownership of a proportion of turbines in a wind farm so as to come within limits of generation prescribed by the legislation. If the 30 megawatt restriction continues to apply in section 2(9), schedule 1, of the Act, the effect of this broad definition of \u201Cinvolved\u201D will be to include the generation capacity of the entire wind farm in the calculation of WEL Networks\u2019 connected generation even if WEL Networks only owns a small portion of the wind turbine, which amounts to below the 30 megawatt capacity.\u201D So that change was made because that very good point came up during the WEL Networks submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAnother point I raise came from the Vector submission, and relates to the regulatory impact statement consolidation of November 2007. The submission said: \u201CIf line companies invest in electricity generation, it is likely to be within their own lines networks or other distributor generation. This is because generation in their own region enabled line companies to (a) develop a more diverse portfolio of assets capable of meeting consumer demand such that is possible to defer or avoid investment in new capacity, and (b) ensure better local optimisation between investment in lines generation and demand sign management, as noted in the November 2006 Cabinet paper.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that when we are looking at bills we need to know exactly what the regulatory impact analysis is. A lot of bills that have come forward before this Parliament have not had a regulatory impact statement, and we have seen that with the KiwiSaver legislation, as an example, and with the Waste Minimisation Bill. It is important that when we are looking at legislation, we know what the costs associated with that legislation will be, by way of a regulatory impact analysis. Those are the only points I want to bring to the attention of the Committee. There is no need for the Minister to respond to my questions unless he wants to. National is in support of this legislation, and with those comments I will finish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3223f246c20454383a838489ab4ff3d\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other Acts and transitional provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000461\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 242 in the name of the Hon David Parker to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000462\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000463\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203ef9c80ef604fb8acebab01bd858217\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5a37cd4fe83467093c7cf932c10ab88\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227283bc470cc94157a10bbd62f4765096\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000467\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000468\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000469\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b279319a60334193aaf03f5c829a7605\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002228b8d21f428044fdbb7754dad7f1d064\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228b8d21f428044fdbb7754dad7f1d064\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Energy: I move, That the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill will encourage lines companies to invest in permitted generation, particularly renewable generation, and it amends the Electricity Industry Reform Act 1998. That was a ridiculous, ideologically driven Act passed by Max Bradford and the National Party, with considerable opposition from people like myself, Peter Brown from New Zealand First, and others who have since come along and said that they absolutely agreed with what was done by the Opposition of that time in fighting that legislation. That legislation forced local electricity businesses to be split up into lines companies, retailers, and generators. It all but stopped local lines companies generating electricity, despite their long history of doing so cost effectively. For example, in my own area the New Plymouth Municipal Electricity Department had a very good, little local hydro station, which it was forced, of course, to separate off from the lines business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThis bill makes four main policy changes, which were outlined earlier, each of which will enable lines companies to get back to generating renewable electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI thank the Commerce Committee for its work on the bill and also those who made submissions. I also thank all those who have spoken in the debate, because they have raised issues that were raised during the process of this bill through the Commerce Committee. I commend the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223e83671488e0476492550c75e9662910\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e83671488e0476492550c75e9662910\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E We have supported the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill right through all its stages, and it is with pleasure that I take the last call on\u2014[Interruption] No, I think we will have other colleagues who want to have a say, so I will not be taking the last call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df5e395f4974d048ac803989bace958\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09b9afb4fc644c3a55e42ce9681356c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: There is a window of opportunity and I know that my colleagues, with their esteemed knowledge and expertise, will want to articulate and crystallise the arguments that will be forthcoming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe have supported this bill mainly because of the construction of renewable energy generation capacity, and that is vital for New Zealand if we are to reduce our carbon emissions. There is a strong view that if we are to be serious about carbon emissions then the whole area of renewable energy generation should factor that in. So that is one of the reasons behind what we have done here. We believe that this bill will move in that direction and help that, although we have heard from my colleagues who have spoken that, in fact, renewable generation has gone down. That is a sad indictment on this Government\u2014renewable generation has actually gone down. In fact, the point that I made, which I have made twice but I will make for the third time, is that generation\u2014the number of megawatts\u2014in the 9 years of a National Government was 1,600, yet in the last 8 years of this Government less than 700 megawatts of new energy has gone into the grid. That is an indictment on this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does, and which we support of course, is allow lines companies to enter into generation. That is important; it will facilitate a lot of those companies that would like to move into generation. The Commerce Committee did not make many changes because the original bill had support, and with the help of the advisers\u2014and I mentioned their contribution earlier\u2014we were able to move this one along. The bill is beneficial to the smaller lines companies, and I mentioned my colleague Chris Auchinvole from the West Coast, because it is on the West Coast and in the Buller region that this bill will be beneficial. Those people will be able to capitalise on the changes that this bill envisages. The bill frees up these companies to become engaged in electricity generation, thereby improving income and security of supply and limiting their dependence on the increased costs, imposed costs, from other generators. Without this bill, if Westpower were to build a hydro scheme, for example, it would have to seek a special exemption from the Commerce Commission. Making an application for an exemption is not a cheap exercise, and the associated costs are very restrictive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EMy final point is that the Resource Management Act is still a major impediment, a major shackle, that we have to get over if we are to have speedy construction of renewable energy generation. The Act needs reforming, and National has a plan to do that. National will be releasing its policy on the Resource Management Act in a timely fashion, but I can say that over the last few years, over half of all the net generation that this Government has put in place\u2014and that is not very much, from the figures I mentioned before\u2014has come from thermal sources and not from the renewables that we have considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWith those few points, I will leave the final words to my colleagues who will be finalising the debate in support of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022b66d4e82fec74221ada50a88a0e8a4d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b66d4e82fec74221ada50a88a0e8a4d1\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I suppose that after 9 years of the Labour-led Government, which has no vision and has taken small steps, we should be grateful for tiny steps. I started to take comfort in the passage of the Electricity Industry Reform Amendment Bill, because my good colleague Lindsay Tisch has said that the passage of this bill will do a lot of good on the West Coast, particularly with an effective MP like Chris Auchinvole who will, I am quite sure, monitor its implementation. I hope he can explain \u201Cinvolvement\u201D in the new section 7A \u201CHow to measure involvement\u201D to encourage the flourishing of renewable resources in New Zealand. As we have all said, for the last 9 years the volume of renewable generation of energy has gone down, so for that reason National will support this bill, even though it is a very tiny step towards reversing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe last thing I want to say is that every time the Hon Harry Duynhoven stood up he raved against the Electricity Industry Reform Act 1998, but I have not seen any attempt in the last 9 years, from that member or from any members on that side of the House, to repeal the 1998 Act. I imagine that if they think the particular legislation is so bad, they obviously do not have any solution. It is a pleasure to take a short call on this legislation in order to take one very small step for New Zealand humankind, and to encourage more renewable generation starting from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00225802a6da342140ffa96ab6b3444b2df0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225802a6da342140ffa96ab6b3444b2df0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will also take a short call, mainly to respond to some of the concerns that have been raised in the debate thus far. First of all, I listened with keen intent to Chris Auchinvole. He took issue with my saying that we should have an abundance of supply. He seemed to say that we should have just enough, with sufficient back-up to cover for emergencies such as low lake levels and extra demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI say to the honourable member, and indeed to the House, that if we settle for that, then we will not have a true market. A true market depends on having a surplus and on having people compete because they need the incentive to sell. If we settle for having just enough, with a back-up for emergencies, then we might as well go back to the old ECNZ days. Indeed, as I said earlier, there are people in New Zealand First who want us to look at amalgamating Genesis, Mighty River Power, and Meridian Energy into the old ECNZ, if for no other reason than that there would be only one head office and it need not be on the waterfront in Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is important that a genuine effort is made by generators to sell, and they must have a surplus to have that genuine incentive to want to sell their products. We are talking about trading. If I want to sell something ahead of someone else, I must know that if I do not sell it somebody else will, otherwise it is a monopoly-type situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill allows lines companies to produce more generation, and New Zealand First supports that, principally to keep us up to speed with the amount we have right now. It is not advancing the situation. The price of electricity is a very key issue for many New Zealanders, and it is important that we have a structure that keeps as much downward pressure on prices as is possible. This bill will not do that. It will simply bring a little bit more electricity on board to ensure that we do not fall over in an emergency situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI want to respond to Dr Cullen. He said that nuclear power is very expensive. The fact is that the infrastructure is exceedingly expensive, but as I understand it the production of electricity is relatively cheap. If we compare other forms of electricity, the cost of the infrastructure is reasonable but the cost of production is reasonable also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe reason for this country not going nuclear is a political one, and it is a reason that I agree with, personally. I am not advocating for nuclear power; I am simply saying that there are New Zealanders out there who say that politicians should have a closer look at it. I am not one who supports that, but I say to the House that more and more people are putting up their hands to say that we should have a closer look at it. They might well be a minority, a very small minority, but because of the price of electricity and because of the environmental concerns, more and more New Zealanders are saying: \u201CPlease have a look at it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill, but we are not kidding ourselves. It really is a patch-up bill to keep us up to speed. It does not advance the electricity industry in this country very much at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0a0b9aa237840dd81558eec072bf895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0a0b9aa237840dd81558eec072bf895\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. The Auckland Energy Consumer Trust recently announced it would be paying dividends from Vector to 300,000 beneficiaries in Auckland City, Manukau, and Papakura of about $320 each. This is a welcome windfall for people who have been suffering high electricity costs for far too long. It is a windfall that makes the Government\u2019s offer of about $112 in compensation to soften the effect of the emissions trading scheme\u2014and, wait for it, in 2 years\u2019 time\u2014look kind of measly, miserly, and mean-spirited in comparison. That one-off compensation payment will disappear at great speed when power bills go up about 5 to 19 percent once the electricity sector becomes part of the emissions trading scheme in 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis bill is supposed to be about developing renewable energy resources. One approach is to define \u201Cnew renewables\u201D to include hydro and geothermal power, so that lines businesses can invest in them as well. This will be good news for M\u0101ori resource trusts like Ng\u0101 Awa Purua, which 5 months ago announced a new $450 million geothermal power station in partnership with Tauhara North, Mighty River Power, and the Sumitomo Corporation, and which is planning a second operation at Rotokawa that will generate enough energy to power a city the size of Tauranga. We hope that any future innovation in renewables\u2014hydro, wave, wind, and geothermal\u2014will include fair negotiations with mana whenua as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe know that Aotearoa benefits hugely from electricity generated in Ng\u0101i Tahu - Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101oa territory, even though these iwi derive very little benefit from the resource. We also know, on the other hand, that geothermal stations like \u014Chaaki can cause great damage to iwi, and that, in fact, of the five marae in the area, four of them can no longer fulfil their functions because of subsidence caused by geothermal development. Indeed, the latest predictions are that within the next 5 years the area will suffer widespread flooding, and that after only 10 years the whole area will be regularly underwater at high-water level on the Waikato River. With all these impacts, we naturally support benefits coming back to iwi from the rich resources that drive the nation\u2019s power stations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis bill also proposes to allow owners of lines businesses to get involved in generation and retail, to encourage a bigger market for generation of renewable energy resources. The New Zealand Wind Energy Association welcomed this move, believing that it might help to reduce potential barriers to investment by lines companies. Others, however, thought that the bill went too far, and that relaxing the corporate separation could possibly push prices up for consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill sets in place incentives to provide better conditions for the owners of lines businesses to invest in generation from renewable energy sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has consistently spoken out about the need to prepare for the reality that coal, gas, and oil production are going to peak and we have challenged members of Parliament to work together to learn how best to adapt to the end of cheap oil and energy, to become proactive and energy-literate, and to properly evaluate energy options. \u014Chaaki, for example, reminds us that the environmental impacts of geothermal energy may, in fact, be too great to bear. We know, too, of marine alternatives, like marine energy, which is close to commercial development, but we also know of the massive impact on local iwi in and around Kaipara, for example, of Crest Energy\u2019s proposed harbour turbine project, which will stop fishing, diving, and even boating across 17,000 hectares of traditional fishing grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe are happy to support any idea that will help create a larger renewable energy pipeline now, and we know that time is of the essence not just for the ending of urgency but for real solutions to reduce oil dependence and consumption and to our ultimately becoming energy independent here in Aotearoa. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206300feace2a458e93a7d8c2a9dcd3c2\u0022\u003EFamily Courts Matters Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a96fd3ef2d61465ab61adc5ad0d81ca3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000500\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 20 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225671f7d04e374e00a008344e9894bcb3\u0022\u003EPart 7  Family Proceedings Act 1980 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022eda0d8ce28904d69a635b2f30ebaf99f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eda0d8ce28904d69a635b2f30ebaf99f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I speak on Part 7 of the Family Courts Matters Bill, a bill that I think I recall the Hon Rick Barker saying was purely a technical bill, but one that clearly extends to much more than matters of pure technicality. In fact, I note that the Hon Rick Barker has put forward Supplementary Order Paper 202, which proposes to divide the bill into 12 bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWith regard to Part 7, the proposal is to have the title of the Act as the Family Proceedings Amendment Act 2008 and have the commencement come into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. Part 7 deals particularly with counsellors and mediation, and the roles they play in this matter of the Family Court, which are absolutely vital and fundamental. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it was Principal Family Court Judge Boshier who said in his submission on behalf of the Family Court just how absolutely vital it is to ensure that the help from counsellors, psychologists, or mediators is of the highest quality, because there has been variability in the past and the negative consequences of this help not being of the highest professional standard can be considerable. Nevertheless, over the years a high professionalism has developed in this area, and I understand that several organisations are particularly representative of mediators and counsellors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI see that the Arbitrators and Mediators Institute of New Zealand and LEADR, an association of dispute resolvers, also submitted. They also stressed just how vital it is to have professionalism within their ranks, and to be consistent, to be available, and, of course, to be able to provide a rapid response if necessary. Nothing is worse than having long gaps between making the order to have counselling or mediation and it finally coming about because, when the parties are ready to embrace it, it is important to get on with it while one can. I note that section 12, which is to be substituted in the Family Proceedings Act by clause 54 and is entitled \u201CDuties on counsellors\u201D, states in subsection (1) that a counsellor \u201C(a) must explore the possibility of reconciliation between the parties; and (b) if reconciliation does not appear to be possible, must attempt to promote conciliation between the parties.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn their submission, the Arbitrators and Mediators Institute and LEADR spent a lot of time defining the difference between counselling and mediation. They stated: \u201CCounselling is a process in which an individual client is assisted by a counsellor to consider their internal and emotional responses to the external world with a view to improving their own emotional and psychological health and their ability to respond to external stimuli in a more constructive manner.\u201D Undoubtedly, this requires enormous professionalism and skill. On the other hand, they said that mediation is a process \u201Cwhere an independent mediator works with parties to identify issues between the parties, explore options, and try to agree to outcomes\u201D. Clearly again, the potential of their being successful is incredibly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that in those organisations\u2019 submission they also make an appeal to be recognised in terms of their pay. They say that they have not been appropriately rewarded, particularly for some of the longer and more complex cases. They feel that their skill level makes it necessary for them to be paid at a similar rate to that of lawyers, and I wonder just how my learned legal colleagues around me would feel about such a proposition. I will end by saying that there is no doubt that skilful mediation, wide mediation, and counselling are very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022e643a043b20e497fb8aaac6f32388c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e643a043b20e497fb8aaac6f32388c55\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the opportunity to make a contribution to the debate on Part 7 of the Family Courts Matters Bill. I guess it is the experience of so many of us working out of electorate offices that people who contact us from time to time about judicial matters are frequently people who find themselves in a state quite broken by the Family Court process. Not having had any personal experience in relation to matters before a Family Court, my only experience is through the mouths of those who have. It is a real shame that people find this process so bruising and damaging. In actual fact, I think that if there is one thing we could do at some stage in the future it would be to remove as much as we could the adversarial process of the Family Court. Children are frequently at the centre of that process. They become not a toy or a plaything, but certainly the most bruised chattels\u2014almost\u2014of those who are scrapping over things that invariably originate away from children and are to do with the relationship of the adults in the situation to start with. I think that that is a real shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EGiven the clauses in Part 7, National is pleased to be able to support this bill and this particular part of the bill especially, because it puts at the heart of matters the opportunity for mediation, and it requires that there is a consideration of reconciliation or that these matters are explored. It is a shame that things progress so quickly before the Family Court. I guess no one gets to the Family Court without quite a bit of baggage from previous years or incidents leading up to it, but it is a shame that in the middle of what can often be an acrimonious and hostile period people are required to explore reconciliation, at a time when it is probably least likely to occur. It is often quite amazing, though, that after the process is complete\u2014it may be a matter of months, it may be a year or so down the track\u2014if one explores the state of the relationship at that time one sees that it is often in a much healthier state than it was at the time of progressing through the Family Court process. Unfortunately that is the time when the orders are made, and it is almost as if the relationship is set up for failure at that point. However, it is very difficult to see how a judicial process imposed on a personal relationship can do anything else. So not only do we have sympathy for people involved in this process as the parties, we also have enormous sympathy for children who are placed into the process by dint of their parents needing to bring matters before the court. The mediators and the counsellors then have to work through that court process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is a real shame, too, that various parties always seem to find the whole process something that they feel completely dissatisfied with. Frequently many of us as members of Parliament are contacted by men who have been through the process of the Family Court and found\u2014from their point of view, in any event\u2014that they have not been treated well. But then on the other side of that we have women who feel that as soon as they entered the process they ran up against family trusts who had paid for big gun legal counsel to fire against them, and they found themselves\u2014from their perspective\u2014disenfranchised by the Family Court situation as well. So we end up back where I started from, which is that it is a shame that the adversarial nature of the Family Court system or the judicial system is such a big part of the Family Court system, no matter how much we would like to try to move it away from that. National is pleased to note that there is a move to maybe deaden that adversarial process, to look to counselling and mediation as things that could become keystones of the Family Court process, and to lessen the impact on those who are involved in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThere is one very disappointing factor, though, and that is that the Government did not produce a bill capable of dealing with the anomaly that the Family Court cannot order DNA tests to establish paternity. A man accused of being a father is required to pay child support without paternity having been proven, and a DNA sample cannot be required by the court. It is very much a matter of consent on behalf of the custodial parent of the child; the court cannot force a DNA test to be made so that paternity can be proven. But at the same time the court can move against the nominated father and require that paternity payments be made. It seems a huge anomaly. It is one of the prime areas of complaint that we see through our electorate offices all the time, and it has not been addressed by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAnyway, National looks forward to the upcoming election\u2014whenever the Prime Minister decides to give us a date\u2014we look forward to the prospect of having the privilege of Government, and we look forward to the ability in the future to rectify the law to make it fairer to those coming before the Family Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00224eaa9c25cc5f4de79ceef850033e3363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eaa9c25cc5f4de79ceef850033e3363\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future is supporting Part 7 of the Family Courts Matters Bill, which, largely, covers the issues of counselling and mediation. I agree with the previous speaker, Chester Borrows, that we need to start to look in family law to some of the rather fine progress that has been made in other jurisdictions around better ways of helping families weed whack their way through what is often a pretty appalling experience when a couple\u2019s relationship has come to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIf we are serious about moving away from a more adversarial approach, I suspect we will need to consider, at some stage, the assumptions in law regarding parenting arrangements for children. Those assumptions allow lawyers to have a field day. If, for instance, there was an assumed starting position in law of shared care, then I think we would find that the approach to working out the parenting and care arrangements for children could be very, very different. One of the blocks to that is provisions in other law. Law is such a complicated thing, and we quite often find it very difficult to amend one law without making adjustments in other areas of law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the areas of law I have come across that does deal directly to Part 7 is the fact that in New Zealand our benefit system is inflexible to the point that one cannot share a benefit. It means we are forced to establish a primary caregiver who is entitled to a domestic purposes benefit and a non-custodial parent\u2014or a parent that has access only\u2014who is not entitled to share a part of that benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future would welcome an urgent review of a number of issues to do with child support. Currently we use some very blunt instruments to calculate child support. All these issues add to a series of assumptions that facilitate an adversarial tone in our Family Court. After the election, if any Government is serious about moving in a less adversarial way, then it will have to realise that there are some very serious considerations\u2014layers and layers of considerations\u2014that will need to be taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI also pick up the issue mentioned by Chester Borrows about DNA testing. The Law Society said that this was the great failure of this bill\u2014that it was a wasted opportunity. I have a member\u2019s bill on the Order Paper, and I will be seeking to advance that\u2014obviously, after the election. The Attorney-General has already indicated there may be some areas of my bill that need strengthening, and I am very open to that. My bill is currently focused on allowing a father who is involved in a dispute as to whether he is the father of a child\u2014a named father, or an unnamed father, as the case may be\u2014to have that clarified simply and quickly through a DNA test. The issue the Attorney-General has raised is whether, for instance, a child who would like to clarify that position is able to make such an application. I am perfectly open to the suggestion that we could strengthen what I am proposing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI think we have to understand that there are two situations that the Family Courts Matters Bill has failed to address when it comes to establishing who is the father of a child. There is the case of the father who believes he is the father of a child and would like to have meaningful contact with that child but, because he is not named on the birth certificate, cannot even apply to have any access. The other side of the coin is a gentleman who is named as the father and suspects that he is not, but is now liable for sometimes quite hefty child support payments whilst all the time unconvinced that he is, indeed, the father. In fact, when we talk to such gentlemen we find that many of them would be happy to pay, provided they knew for sure they actually were the father. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI think there is another important thing to note in Part 7. One of the things submitters asked us to be mindful of was that there is a huge difference between mediation and counselling. There was some concern that, as we progressed, we would morph these into one consideration and misunderstand the very distinct differences between those very important roles. The Social Services Committee was very mindful of that. We talked about issues around the participation by children in mediation, and when that was age-appropriate. Who would decide that? Could counsel for the child attend mediation and counselling on behalf of their client, the child? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe committee had to weigh up and consider a number of issues like that, and those are not small decisions. Many would have to be made on a case by case basis. The committee was reluctant to see a law that would set up a clear and demanding expectation on children to attend; nor did we want to provide a situation where children were blocked in a way that could be unhelpful for their ongoing well-being. United Future is happy to support Part 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022b77db4564a0f4c63a69a52bc8911ceb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b77db4564a0f4c63a69a52bc8911ceb8\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Family Courts Matters Bill in the Committee stage. I will pick up on a couple of issues that have been raised by National members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWhen we think about this bill and the necessity for it, the first thing that springs to mind is why any party ever launches into such a complex area that raises so many questions. We hear stories from women\u2014and I am sure many of us know such women\u2014who have had difficulties as far as Family Court matters, paternity issues, and payments for their children are concerned. We also hear the other side of the story, which Judy Turner just raised, and that is the issues men have as far as paternity, access, and payments are concerned. The reality is that there are two sides of that story, and we hear compelling arguments from both sides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, in what turns out to be a lose-lose situation, the main losers are the children. That is why it is relatively courageous and a great thing that we discussed this issue in the Social Services Committee and we are discussing it here in the Committee stage. It is never easy; nor is it ever going to be. We are dealing with emotions and with people who are, quite frankly, at a crisis point, and, as we all know, when children are involved it becomes extremely complicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWe need to pick up on many other issues. I really do agree with Judy Turner that currently\u2014and this bill touches on this too\u2014we pitch one parent against the other. Immediately, we say that one parent will be the custodian and one will be the payer, and that is the way it will be. It almost feels like one parent gets the child and the other has to pay for the child, and that is where a lot of these issues happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EPart 7 talks about counselling. I think it is great to address some of the concerns about what those parents and, in particular, those children need. I think the best advice we could give to anyone in this situation is to keep the courts out of it wherever possible. If people can sort themselves out without getting the Government and the State involved, then that is the best thing a family can do. But if a family is in a difficult situation, then they need legislation such as this, and parts of this bill will make a difference for such people. I think the Minister himself, the Hon Rick Barker, acknowledges that when families are dealing with such an emotional and stressful time, no legislation will be able to fix every problem and account for every issue and situation that can arise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI also want to talk a little bit about where we are with DNA testing. We are in a situation where it is easily done, and, from what I can see, all parties except for the Greens support addressing that issue. I did not have the good fortune of sitting on the Social Services Committee for this bill, but I did sit on the committee about 2\u00BD years ago when we went through issues relating to payment and the Inland Revenue Department. From what I could see, Labour, National, ACT, and United Future considered child support to be a substantial financial obligation, and there needs to be discussion as to how we address the issues of DNA and paternity. It was a shame that we could not do that within the scope of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EPart 7 talks a lot about the need for counselling and what that means for the children concerned, and I think that is important and necessary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8dd0e028374639ab5eac3156493b78\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; the expressions on my face have nothing to do with the member\u2019s speech. I have cramp\u2014it is nothing to do with the member\u2019s speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022499c7c55b8a748fbbe46b2fbd7521880\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I must say that you were throwing me a little, Madam Chairperson. I thought I was on the wrong part; it can happen like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EAnyway, it is great that we are debating this bill. I think there is a lot more debate left on the matter, and it is a bit of a shame that we are dealing with it under urgency and at the end of a parliamentary term. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78935d4f39e40029599a9e71b7a7a60\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I offer my abject apologies. We in this Chamber are human beings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 200 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EPart 7 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1f5727febe84bf58804e5f31f27fd32\u0022\u003EPart 8 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207b60eec141947359a0989825da6b671\u0022\u003EPart 9 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abac4596904e45008c0a5dfc4d173529\u0022\u003EPart 10  Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b31d4a74a441bc9fcd87421c9d6208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b31d4a74a441bc9fcd87421c9d6208\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 10 relates to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992 and, obviously, will become an amendment bill itself after the Hon Rick Barker\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper takes effect. National is glad to support this part. In particular, it deals with restrictions on the publication of reports of proceedings. Undoubtedly, this is absolutely pertinent when it involves individuals who have been committed under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment Act) 1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that in the submissions there was unanimity between the various submitters that this was the appropriate thing to do. Judge Boshier, speaking for the Family Court judges, did query the competence of a person who is to be the subject of an order to make a rational decision about publication. He says they are concerned about the level of understanding any patient may have about the implications surrounding publication. The judges proposed deleting this provision and dealing with all publication matters under the Family Courts Act. That was very much echoed by the family law section of the New Zealand Law Society and by Professor Bill Atkin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is undoubtedly important that the rights of vulnerable people are protected. I guess that is the nub of this legislation, because any change to the openness of the legislation must strike that balance between open justice and the privacy of individuals, of children, and of the family involved, and in that aspect, of course, of people who have a mental disability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is pertinent that this week the bill that allowed the ratification of the United Nation Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was unanimously carried in this Parliament\u2014only 2 nights ago. I think there was general celebration both through the sector and through the Parliament that New Zealand had made the benchmark move to have that convention ratified. Again, it was made very clear in that legislation that vulnerable people, such as those with severe mental disorders, do need protection. What was good about that was that it also allowed those who were able to participate in a whole variety of actions, to do so and not be excluded because of their mental illness. So again it struck a very good balance between the two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut there is one, slightly sinister, area that I thought it was worthwhile bringing up. From time to time when couples are in huge strife and things become very intense and emotional, there have been instances where one partner may attempt to commit the other under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992. That, of course, is an awful situation to be in, and it just exemplifies how important, once again, the mediation and counselling processes are if such a condition arises. And of course, once again, publication of that sort of highly intimate detail would be totally inappropriate. There is no doubt that Part 10, which amends the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act, is absolutely appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to clause 75 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003Eto omit from section 25(b) \u201Cand\u201D and substitute \u201Cor\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EPart 10 as amended agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5c7672486054822821cb8bac495fa88\u0022\u003EPart 11  Property (Relationships) Act 1976\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002215e908f1ff5a4054bae20fbe426285fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215e908f1ff5a4054bae20fbe426285fc\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to ask a question of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, with regard to new section 2BAA, \u201CCivil union includes immediately preceding de facto relationship\u201D in clause 77. I certainly have some questions around that provision, and I did not sit on the Social Services Committee. New section 2BAA states: \u201CFor the purposes of this Act, if a civil union was immediately preceded by a de facto relationship between the 2 civil union partners (\u2018A\u2019 and \u2018B\u2019), the de facto relationship must be treated as if it were part of the civil union.\u201D An example of civil union is then given: \u201CIf the de facto relationship of A and B lasts 1 year, and their civil union lasts 2 years, the civil union must be treated as if it\u2014(a) began 3 years ago; and (b) lasted 3 years.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThat, of course, raises many questions. How do we know whether people were in a de facto relationship? Are we insisting, a little bit like we do with some other legislation, that they show they incurred bills together and were living in the same premises? Under what definition is a relationship a de facto relationship? There are certainly questions around how to prove that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EA Minister\u2019s speech-writer wrote about \u201Ctriples\u201D. I wonder whether a triple relationship would come into a civil union relationship if the relationship is a de facto one. I wonder how that would fit in. I am not quite sure what \u201Ctriple relationship\u201D means, but we certainly heard the issue raised in one of the speeches from the other side. If people were in a de facto relationship for some time, how do we define the de facto relationship? Is it defined as two people living together and sharing the bills? What happens if it is a triple relationship, as has been mentioned by Labour members earlier? How would that work in regard to the Property (Relationships) Act, which Part 11 amends? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec97f790eb904235af02930d1ea7c4f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec97f790eb904235af02930d1ea7c4f4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I went to the seminar when the Property (Relationships) Act was being put into effect. The issue of a doubles relationship was raised, and one of the ways in which people make sure that everyone knows there is a doubles relationship\u2014in particular, the party who perhaps might gain the most\u2014is that after 12 months they have a great party to celebrate the first anniversary of the relationship, then they have the second anniversary, and then the third anniversary. So if the matter ever went to court they would have all their friends there to say that quite clearly this relationship started on such and such a date. Although that may sound facetious, apparently that is done and it is a wonderful way of establishing, by way of evidence, that the parties have been together for 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESo far as a triples relationship is concerned, well, some people might say that chance would be a fine thing, but there seems to be some aspersion being cast on a speech prepared by a speech-writer for the Minister and some people seem to be taking advantage of that. I clearly remember a select committee hearing that I was on, dealing with a family matters bill, and the suggestion was raised that there might have been a polygamous relationship between a homosexual man and two lesbian women. I suggested that could be a triples relationship, because both the women had had children from the man. [Interruption] This was evidence that was given in the select committee. I raised the question whether it was polygamous, and they all denied that it was. It was an interesting point, and the Labour Party members were horrified to think that anyone could possibly believe there could be a polygamous relationship. So far this House has, on the question of the Property (Relationships) Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022406c07462cf44e1093663b18881e9b84\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Good! I am so pleased to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0dc344e2f8541ffb23b3d7d3c6e1216\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That issue was raised by the previous speaker, Madam Chair, but it really seems to be a very, very long bow, and I cannot see that polygamous relationships would ever be accepted. I hope I have illuminated the matter a little for the member who has raised what is a very interesting point but has no bearing on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EPart 11 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bb7c6a575d44124b8cd6d2a4210e94b\u0022\u003EPart 12 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aad5d3aa738c41fd81265172bd388f27\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022e860aa5e1b154b1ba50afaf217272063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e860aa5e1b154b1ba50afaf217272063\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the title and the various other clauses you suggested, regarding this Family Court Matters Bill. Once again, I note that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, initially regarded this bill as purely a technical bill, but National members have on many occasions pointed out that this is much more than a technical bill. However, contrary to the fact that it is appropriate for it to be called the Family Courts Matters Bill, in actual fact it will be divided into 12 bills. I will not go through them all, but they range through a vast spectrum from the Adoption Amendment Bill and the Care of Children Amendment Bill (No 2), right through to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill and the Protection of Personal and Property Rights Amendment Bill (No 2). All of these are highly relevant to the smooth and effective running of the Family Courts Matters Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI am only too conscious of just how important it is to have technical expertise within the court, to make sure that these matters are run effectively. I was quite interested, at one stage, to read that although the court is being opened out, the judges prefer\u2014well, they insist on\u2014having the right to ask people to leave if they feel that it is appropriate. I think that is absolutely correct, because I remember very much, when I used to be carrying out caesarean sections, that husbands would come in to hold the hands of their wives, and from time to time I would have to say to them that if there was any possibility of there being a technical reason for them to go, then I would ask them to respond appropriately. Occasionally, as members can imagine, when a spouse fainted and cracked his head, there was all hell to pay. That did happen on the odd occasion. I can see a similar analogy in a court of law, where a judge might indeed find that he or she will be required to ask one of the many people now allowed into a court in this new open situation, to leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut I emphasise that Judge Boshier, in his submission to this committee, stressed just how important it was to have those expert qualified counsellors, psychologists, and mediators, and how important it was to ensure the professional integrity of those people in the running of the court\u2014much more particularly to the end result of the sort of anguish we see when a small proportion of cases comes to court. As I noted before, the delicate balance between the openness of the court and the restrictions that can apply, was very carefully and poignantly expressed by the English Law Commission: \u201CWhat is more serious is that the parties, and more especially, their innocent children whose identity is frequently revealed as a result of the details which can be published, suffer the disturbing experience of having the most intimate details of the family life exposed. While it may be said that the parties have only themselves to blame, no such argument can apply to their children whose privacy the law takes pain to protect in other cases.\u201D I understand that in Australia, where there is openness, this indeed can have quite severe negative repercussions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI also take this opportunity to comment on one of the opportunities this bill does not encompass, a missed opportunity, and that concerns DNA testing, on which Judy Turner from United Future has a bill awaiting the ballot. I personally can relate just how important it is to get up to speed and use DNA testing within the court system. I vividly remember, some long years ago, being asked as a junior registrar to go to the court in Pukekohe, of all places, to be an expert witness on a paternity case. It happened that there were eight young men and one young woman, and of those eight young men only one had any assets. But according to my calculations, using the dates I was given, the one with assets was indeed the least likely to be the father. However, the judge surprised everyone and, unfortunately for that young man, the judge awarded him the responsibility for that young woman. It seems to me that probably for a decade or so it would have cost him sorely, and probably unfairly. I make the point, then, that yes, maybe this is a missed opportunity, but hopefully in the next Parliament the matter can indeed be rectified. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022450e74b3e33a46df92f68d5f034ea3d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022450e74b3e33a46df92f68d5f034ea3d3\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I will pick up on a couple of points that were made by my good friend Paula Bennett. She was talking about triples, and I wanted to draw attention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229544db7dc8f7450aa2fa7142d2c38a6c\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Name-dropper!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c96dc08e923743268e3438ed12b5c910\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I align myself to as many famous people as I can. But I need to draw attention to those metropolitan members, because they may not know that in the provinces, some of these multiparty accords are actually celebrated. If any members have the privilege, as I will have tomorrow, to visit any of the bowling clubs, they will find that on the boards around the clubrooms they will see that the clubs list the status of various people. They have triples boards, and championships in the triples, and all the names are listed. But they also have fours. Then the doubles are listed\u2014well, you know, there are always quite a few in the doubles\u2014and the poor people who are just in the singles. They are all on their own, but there are heaps of them, as well. So this is not something new that the honourable Minister\u2019s speech-writer has come up with; this is something that apparently has lain latently within the provinces for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EHowever, let me get back to Part 1 of the Family Courts Matters Bill. [Interruption] I said \u201Clain\u201D, not \u201Claid\u201D. Anyway, the National Party is pleased to be able to support it, in a major way, because it does not refer to triples, doubles, singles, or fours. The Family Court system must be a system that is open and fair, and this bill increases the openness and the transparency of Family Court proceedings. We believe that that is a good thing. Those who have to go through the court process frequently feel bruised and broken by it, more so, probably, than in other court systems. It is, and has been, shrouded in secrecy for a long time, and we can understand the reasons for that, especially at the time that secrecy was introduced. Really, whose business is it, other than those intimately involved with the break-up of a marriage-type relationship? Parts of the proceedings are not things that should necessarily be open to the public to scrutinise and comment on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EHowever, those who are at the core of matters proceeding before the Family Court, and especially those who feel they have not had openness and due process shown to them, are those who most want to have the dealings of this particular court open to some public scrutiny. We believe that that is a fair thing to happen. We mentioned in earlier speeches the incongruity of there not being a provision within this bill\u2014and it would have been most suitable to have had one there\u2014for DNA tests to be compulsory where, for instance, a parent, particularly a father, is accused of being the father. A father can deny that, but has no means of being able to require a DNA sample to be taken so that paternity can be proven. Yet the Family Court, as the law stands at the moment\u2014and will continue to stand, even after the passage of this bill\u2014has the ability to require paternity payments, child support payments, from the accused father, whether or not it is proven he is the father, and he has no ability to prove he is not. That is a real anomaly within our system. Right across society there is a lot more openness and transparency put on a number of what have previously been private areas, yet we have the ability to hold people to account, merely on an accusation without any proof. I think that that is a bad thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAnother point I make is that we frequently hear, in any discussions around the court system, that the only people making any money out of this are lawyers: \u201CIt is a real heyday for lawyers\u2014rah, rah, rah!\u201D. You know, I speak as a lawyer with a \u201Clong\u201D history of practising in the courts for 2\u00BD years, and never appearing before the Family Court. But I would like to point out that that really means we have an adversarial\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d619f5bffc41218c161c796e817264\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Did you win any cases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229970c9f324104c6b892b3538324de28f\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I have never won a case in the Family Court\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da367a6760e6499c836c15fee1ae7b2e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Have you lost any?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35103ecf5d64e34b5cc018e80ea1d18\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I can say that I have never lost one either. So there you go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e1dea47e8e2463b9be8781852dd5c97\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Did you meet Denny Crane?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218035972c4249a8847310ba1ec32a55\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I sit on the fence\u2014I should be in one of the minority parties, and I have never met Denny Crane. But having said that, the fact is that it is our adversarial system that forces lawyers to act in the best interests of their clients. It is the system that forces one side against another, and it is frequently in an atmosphere of hostility and animosity that actually means that the lawyer has to thump the other side as hard as he or she can. That is the nature of the system. The fact that going to those depths costs frequently a significant amount of money, is the nature of the work. If we are looking for something that is open and something that will be fair, then maybe in time this country will have to look at the way it does the Family Court system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to make the point that we must never forget that the most critical people at the centre of all these issues that appear before the Family Court are frequently children. An acrimonious series of court hearings with children at the heart of it, and scraps over custody and access, can only leave them\u2014the most vulnerable people within the system, and those most at risk, although counsel for the child are appointed\u2014having long-term harm, not of their own choosing. It is those people who will need to be most protected by the way this bill is implemented, and by the way the Family Courts carry out their business in the future. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9e5f4d809a4879921df7b20eb3c98a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9e5f4d809a4879921df7b20eb3c98a\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to just finish up quite quickly on the Family Courts Matters Bill. I suppose when we see that people are protesting outside judges\u2019 houses, and we see people protesting as to how they feel about the results they have had via the Family Court, and when we have certainly had them all through our offices, writing to us, and certainly expressing their displeasure with the process they feel they have had, then it is paramount that we get this stuff right, that it is given due process, and that it has been through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EAs I have said earlier\u2014and I want to reiterate it again\u2014as far as I am concerned it is one of those processes where it is very hard to find winners. It is very hard to find anyone who comes out of this court process and feels like they have actually accomplished what they want to. At the end of the day, my personal opinion would be that if one is not getting to spend as much time with one\u2019s children as one possibly can and find something that actually is equitable for both parties, then it is always a bit of a shame for everyone involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EOverall, in terms of the bill, I think what has tried to be accomplished is to make the needs of the child paramount. I think, at the end of the day, that all sides of the House\u2014certainly every party\u2014were concentrating on what was best for the child. I think one sees that when we look at the Minister bringing in things around the Domestic Violence Act, and the stuff that goes with those, that have been introduced via the courts. There might not be many counselling services for the children, but if one believes that every child has every opportunity to succeed, then it does not matter how small the number is, quite frankly. It is something that should be addressed in this bill, and it is something that I am pleased we have seen introduced via it. I think mediation, and how we introduce it, is important in order to perhaps make people feel like they can talk a bit more easily, and that has to be a plus when it comes to the bill. I think it is important that we give people options as to how they can actually go through this process, which is a very emotional and often a very distressing process, and actually make it as easy as we can. Of course, I am one of those people who believe that keeping Government out of it, and keeping the courts out of it, wherever possible, will actually mean a better result. But when that cannot happen for people, and they have lost that ability to actually discuss it amongst themselves, then I think that we see some of the changes through this bill, and we are very pleased to be supporting that. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b62d5d6aaff64717839e7876d2ca03f7\u0022\u003ESupplementary  .\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000581\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Adoption Amendment Bill, the Care of Children Amendment Bill (No 2), the Child Support Amendment Bill (No 2), the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 7), the Domestic Violence Amendment Bill, the Family Courts Amendment Bill (No 2), the Family Proceedings Amendment Bill, the Family Protection Amendment Bill, the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Amendment Bill, the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill, the Property (Relationships) Amendment Bill, and the Protection of Personal and Property Rights Amendment Bill (No 2), pursuant to Order Paper202\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000582\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b62d5d6aaff64717839e7876d2ca03f7\u0022\u003EWalking Access Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002279cb554b368e462da16e605835d6f067\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d2cc3f674f14cd8ad09ac896b9452ab\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary Provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000586\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000587\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000588\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Family Courts Matters Bill with amendment, and that the Committee had divided it into 12 bills; and no progress on the Walking Access Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000589\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249926a1063d947a8a4a6f9156c8aaf6c\u0022\u003ECultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273d050f323e545c799a601f48478ec22\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcf38e95dc7548f5a33db014b88da266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcf38e95dc7548f5a33db014b88da266\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage: I move, That the Cultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis bill relates to New Zealand ratifying the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict, commonly called the 1954 Hague convention, and its two protocols. I am sure that members will be aware that the 1954 Hague convention arose out of the experience in World War II when the Nazis, in particular, were prone to stealing the cultural properties of other nations that they had invaded and occupied. Vast amounts of cultural treasures were translated into Germany, some never to be seen again. New Zealand ratified the convention in Paris on 24 July this year, and the bill enables us to accede to the two protocols to the Hague convention. The convention and its protocols work for cultural property in a similar way that the Geneva convention and its protocols do to safeguard civilians in the event of armed conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe bill has three main, relatively simple purposes: to create a number of criminal offences in relation to cultural property, to prohibit trade in cultural property removed from occupied territory, and to prevent unauthorised use of the convention emblem. Accession to the two protocols will reinforce our participation in the Unesco family as a champion of the protection of cultural property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002275717de9c9a849248b936942d477d526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275717de9c9a849248b936942d477d526\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E National will support the first reading of this bill. As the Minister said, it meets various obligations that are required before New Zealand can accede to the first and second protocols to the 1954 Hague convention, and, as the Minister said, we ratified the convention on 24 July 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe convention was adopted in the wake of massive destruction of cultural heritage in World War II. It is the first international treaty that focuses exclusively on protection of cultural heritage in the event of armed conflict. As can be seen by the bill, the convention covers not only movable but also immovable property, and this includes monuments of architecture, art, or history, archaeological sites, works of art, manuscripts, books, and other objects of artistic, historical, or architectural interest, as well as scientific collections of all kinds, regardless of their origin or ownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIndeed the issue of how to protect property in a time of war could be said to be as old war itself. Consider the Punic Wars and Cato the Elder\u2019s famous clarion call: \u201CCarthago delenda est.\u201D The attitude of total warfare toward Carthage resulted in its complete destruction at the end of the third Punic War. The fields were sown with salt and the city was ploughed over. Many years ago I visited St Petersburg, formerly known as Leningrad, then Petrograd. Someone pointed out to me various markers, which were actually not far from the Winter Palace. They showed just how close the Wehrmacht came to the centre of that magnificent city. Places like Tsarskoye Selo, now known as Puskhin, were practically destroyed by the Germans, and the damage done in St Petersburg was also enormous. Think, too, of Stalingrad, Coventry, London, and, of course, what happened to Dresden in the closing months of the Second World War. The beautiful Saxon heritage of the city was laid waste, and, indeed, some buildings, like the Frauenkirche, have only recently been finally restored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs the Minister mentioned, the theft of paintings, for example, from the Louvre by the Nazis in the Second World War is another illustration of what happens to cultural property in a time of conflict. Goering and others looted museums and art galleries and took their ill-gotten gains back to Germany with them. That is why the issue raised by this bill and the convention is such an important one, and why it behoves this Parliament to deal with this issue. It is a very, very important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOne issue we will want to look at very carefully in the select committee is the all-important defintion of \u201Ccultural property\u201D. It could be said that one of our biggest cultural treasures is our unwritten, uncodified Westminster constitution, and one may well ask about the damage to our constitution in an intensive period of warfare, namely this election year. Of course, our constitution is the property of the people, not the Government, but this administration treats it as its plaything and as something it can meddle with for its own advantage. I need only mention the Electoral Finance Act, which is possibly the worst legislation ever passed by this Parliament. With breathtaking arrogance, the Government rammed this legislation though the House at the end of 2007, despite opposition from every newspaper, the Human Rights Commission, the Law Society, and thousands of citizens. The Act makes it nearly impossible for those opposed to the Government to campaign against it. It undermines freedom of speech, and, in fact, it is so difficult to interpret that there have even been complaints recently to the Electoral Commission about the Film Archive showing the dancing Cossacks advertisement, which was first screened by the National Party during the 1975 general election. Apparently, some Labour stooge is alleging that it breaches section 5 of the Electoral Finance Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIf the Act is retained\u2014and let me assure the House that one of the first things a National Government will do is ditch it\u2014one out of three New Zealanders will find his or her speech severely curtailed, all because the Government believes in conspiracy theories and cannot bear the thought of losing an election. So that is a very important issue of constitutional cultural property that we will need to consider during the course of the Government Administration Committee\u2019s deliberations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFinally, I might observe on the Electoral Finance Act that it was passed in such a partisan manner that the Government threw out the convention of bipartisan support for electoral reform, so I note with irony that the Green Party has finally woken up and realised what a mess it was involved in with the passing of that bill. Indeed, their co-leader recently said that all the confusion could have been avoided if the regulated period had started on 1 April, not 1 January, which is exactly what I attempted to achieve by way of a Supplementary Order Paper, but it was voted down by, among other people, the Greens. Then today we had the most recent assault on our constitution. The Labour Government is intending to appoint another committee of review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe exact scope of the legislation we will be looking at in the select committee is unclear. Clearly, it will address the issues I mentioned in the first part of my speech about the protection of both movable and immovable property in a time of armed conflict. But it is beyond argument that our constitutional cultural property has also been severely damaged by the Huns and Visigoths on the other side of the House. We have a Government that is disdainful of the constitution and its importance. It has contempt for the rule of law. It has politicised the Public Service. It has breached fundamental human rights, like the right to free speech. Destruction of cultural heritage is a terrible thing indeed. Just as terrible, if not more so, is a decayed Government that passes repressive laws and does not practise what it preaches. Notwithstanding that, we support the first reading of this legislation, and look forward to careful consideration of it at the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022698247df2bd94508b901224502711c30\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb5e3ab3d6b847b7b9c9d28281520fe9\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I know that Darien Fenton, who is an assiduous member of that committee, cannot wait for the bill to get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a576b7a3a790468787347bd1b81b3788\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a576b7a3a790468787347bd1b81b3788\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support my most esteemed colleague Christopher Finlayson. National is supporting the Cultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhen I looked at what this bill actually does, I wondered about what would happen if we were suddenly in the midst of armed conflict. I sincerely hope that the country we are in conflict with, no matter which country it might be, has read the Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict. I hope it has that piece of paper close at hand and knows that if we are all gathered here in the House with the rest of the population of Wellington, we are safe. If it has not read that United Nations document, I wonder where that would leave us\u2014which creek we would be up and whether we would have a paddle. But if we are in this building and the country has read it, we may be protected. A heck of a lot of reliance is being placed on a piece of paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe other thing that really intrigued me was what happens when, in the midst of armed conflict, that country\u2014whether it has read the convention or not\u2014bombs Parliament House. Does that particular country then get hauled through the courts? With the penalties in the bill for criminal offences against cultural property, will their commanders be extradited to New Zealand, where we will take them through a court of law to bring about some justice for the loss of a building? Of course, they would never reinstate the building. However, we may lose some of the very poor legislation that has been put through Parliament over the last 9 years, and we could start afresh\u2014we could certainly do so on the Electoral Finance Act. So actually, when we think about it, we see that there are some positives! I was intrigued to see that a soldier is actually being convicted under the War Crimes Act. We have to wonder how far this type of responsibility will actually go, how many of those in charge would be liable for prosecution, and whether we could bring that into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhen I looked further at the support for this convention, I saw that we received only a handful of submissions, including submissions from the Historic Places Trust and one or two people who support our heritage\u2014a worthy cause, of course; we all value our heritage. Only last night I discovered the ship manifest for the Lady Egidia, which docked in Port Chalmers with 400 passengers in 1861. That was a huge number of immigrants to come into New Zealand in 1861. I am quite interested in that type of thing. I value our cultural heritage\u2014as I know many, many New Zealanders do\u2014and it is important to protect it. However, whether doing that is feasible in a realistic sense during a time of conflict remains to be seen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe have become a signatory to the Hague convention. What does that mean? We now have to go through the process of deciding which of our buildings or cultural heritage assets are the most important to us. For instance, we have to decide whether the building we are now in, Parliament House, is one of the most important places to us in terms of our cultural heritage\u2014I would suggest that it is. Once we have decided, we can at that point put an emblem on the front of the building, identifying it as being protected under the Hague convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt is a rather interesting emblem. It looks like an open, upside-down envelope. If we put that on the front of the building, then everybody will know that it is protected under the Hague convention. In the event of conflict, people from another country will see that. In fact, they probably could see it from their own country, because satellites are so powerful these days that we can google anywhere, home in on a street, and see who is there. That is what satellites do, so it is not too silly to suggest that other countries might be able to see the emblem. It is also not too silly to suggest that it might prevent this building from being bombed\u2014or whatever technology is used at that time to destroy something or someone. Advances in technology are such that people can target pretty precisely where they want to do the most damage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ENext we will have to decide which aspects of our cultural heritage we want to protect the most. We will also have to provide a limited number of refuges intended to shelter movable cultural property in the event of armed conflict. Cultural property will need to be moved from one place to another to ensure its protection, and we hope that the site where it is stored will protect it. Under the legislation, certain centres will be defined as \u201Ccontaining monuments\u201D\u2014we must not forget our monuments. A huge number of our monuments pay tribute to all of those who died in wars while protecting our democracy and freedom. Sometimes when we are debating a bill in the House, we feel like we are on the beaches of Dunkirk, trying to hold back yet another tidal wave of poor legislation that is imposing costs on our citizens\u2014the people of New Zealand\u2014by whatever means. That legislation has been brought about through the misjudgment and misguidedness of the current Government as it puts more and more costs on to the citizens of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795fdc5796d049719d6334ca220912c8\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded8f4e746a74a1f8842429bbec88b30\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: I will come back to the bill, Mr Deputy Speaker. The debating chamber is an important war memorial. It is a part of our cultural heritage. It feels at times as if we are on the beaches of Dunkirk; that evacuation is also a part of our heritage, and the monuments to the world wars are very much a part of it. That is why I refer to the fact that when one is standing here debating bills, it feels very much like one is trying to protect that cultural heritage from an avalanche of legislation that constantly undermines our freedom, democracy, and choice. So that is the linkage to those principles. Unfortunately, they are not protected by the Hague convention from being undermined by the current Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe go on to the decision about which cultural property deserves enhanced protection. Well, enhanced protection is of course for \u201Ccultural heritage of the greatest importance for humanity;\u201D, as the bill states in article 10(a) of schedule 3. Article 10(b) states that the property must be \u201Cprotected by adequate domestic legal and administrative measures\u201D. Depending on the degree of intention from a local authority, that could be a light-handed or a heavy-handed approach to the protection of our cultural heritage. The other point, in article 10(c), is that the cultural property must not be \u201Cused for military purposes or to shield military sites\u201D. [Interruption] I beg the member\u2019s pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e00937b869da493e9cfe29f137e9a238\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about the mangrove swamps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226415fcda7f69446288a0a92306bd636d\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: They do not need protection. We have a lot of mangroves around the country. I do not know whether we would really want to claim those to be a cultural heritage plant, because\u2014no, I do not even want to start going there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAs I was saying, article 10(c) ensures that people do not run a war from a cultural heritage site protected by the Hague convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI just hope that any nations that decide to wage war upon us have read the Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict and understand that we have signed up to it\u2014we ratified that convention on 24 July 2008\u2014and that we will meet those obligations. We hope that other countries have read about our commitment to the Hague convention, and will respect our cultural heritage accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002249ab4de035284cb6b540fc4138c95420\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249ab4de035284cb6b540fc4138c95420\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Cultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill. I believe that some consideration will have to be given in the Government Administration Committee to the definition of movable and immovable property. This has been touched on by an earlier speaker. \u201CMovable property\u201D and \u201Cimmovable property\u201D are terms that are not usually used in New Zealand land law. We usually refer to real estate or personal property; movable and immovable property are terms from European civil law. I expect that in the select committee a clearer definition will have to be given of what is intended, and that we will go back to Roman law principles and suchlike. So that matter will need to be clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI suppose that if this legislation had been in force during the Greek civil war, the damage to the Acropolis might not have been undertaken, because the Greeks kept their ammunition in the Acropolis, and one day, inevitably, it blew up to a large extent. One thinks, of course, of New Zealand\u2019s efforts in the Second World War and of what happened at Monte Cassino. The Germans were ensconced there and, of course, the inevitable action was taken to try to get them out. Those problems do arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIf we read the bill and look at Part 2, which relates to offences, we see that this part makes it clear that an offence is committed only if the act is intentional and the person either knew or had reason to believe that the property was cultural property. In addition, the act must occur in the situation of hostilities. Again, an offence is not committed if the person is acting in accordance with the convention and the second protocol\u2014for example, if the person is acting by imperative military necessary. Imperative military necessity is explained in article 6 of the second protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EFurther offences relate to cultural property removed from occupied territory. Clause 15 creates new offences of removing cultural property unlawfully from the territory of a party to the first protocol, other than New Zealand, while the territory is under occupation. Clause 17 creates new offences of dealing in smuggled property or in enhanced protection smuggled property. The offences apply only to things done in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis is one of those bills where the bill itself is 32 pages long but the schedules are 54 pages long, and it will be a very interesting time working them all out in the select committee. New Zealand First supports this bill going to the select committee and, on the face of it, it supports it generally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c706f49bdae14cc5a1a00afc69f176c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c706f49bdae14cc5a1a00afc69f176c9\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. On behalf of the M\u0101ori Party I rise to make a very short statement on this Cultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill, which defines cultural property as the cultural heritage of all people. That includes monuments, archaeological sites, historic buildings, works of art, manuscripts, books, scientific collections, archives, museums, libraries, and refuges. And that is it. There is nothing M\u0101ori in here, at all. That is kind of surprising when we are talking about cultural property, and even more surprising when we are talking about protection in armed conflict, given the efforts of M\u0101ori involved in armed conflict on behalf of this country, and given also the number of M\u0101ori MPs in Labour who allowed this to go through completely de-knackered of any M\u0101ori content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori, of course, refer to the claim for Wai 262 when they talk of cultural property\u2014a claim lodged with the Waitangi Tribunal to protect and preserve indigenous flora and fauna and associated cultural and intellectual heritage. It was filed in 1991, on behalf of six claimant iwi, by Dell W\u012Bhongi of Ng\u0101puhi, Saana Murray of Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B, Te Witi McMath of Ng\u0101ti Wai, John Hippolite of Ng\u0101ti K\u014Data, Tama Poata from Te Wh\u0101nau a Rua in Ng\u0101ti Porou, and Katarina R\u012Bmene of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. The tragedy of Wai 262 is that only one of the claimants is still living today. And still we wait, and we wait, and we wait for a finding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWai 262 is code for the exclusive and comprehensive rights to flora and fauna, cultural knowledge, and property as taonga that is protected by article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Wai 262 is also a claim that says that the Crown has failed to actively protect the exercise of tino rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga over indigenous flora and fauna and other taonga, and also over m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori; that the Crown has failed to protect the taonga itself; that the Crown has usurped tino rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga of M\u0101ori in respect of flora and fauna and other taonga through the development of policy and the enactment of legislation; and that the Crown has breached the Treaty of Waitangi by agreeing to various international agreements and obligations that affect indigenous flora and fauna, intellectual property rights, and rights to other taonga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI will not speak for much longer, but I will say that I was also interested to hear the reference made to constitutional significance earlier in this debate. Yet again, unsurprisingly, there was no mention of the foundation of our constitution, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which gives rise to the thought that perhaps the M\u0101ori Party might recommend the inclusion of a Treaty of Waitangi clause in this bill in order to give Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori members the opportunity, at least once in the last 3 years, to vote to support the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party will support this bill going to the select committee, but only because we know that there are a lot of people out there who will want to challenge the racist basis of this bill and the very exclusive way in which cultural property has been defined and valued. T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00220dd17a36d94747f7933a97792d5c9577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dd17a36d94747f7933a97792d5c9577\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Cultural Property (Protection in Armed Conflict) Bill and I am very pleased to do so, because it is certainly time that we acceded to the first and second protocols of the Hague convention that we originally signed way back in 1954 when the world was mourning the loss of cultural heritage that was destroyed in World War II. These days we cannot imagine the effect of the wholesale slaughter of soldiers and civilians that went on during those years from 1939 to 1945, and it was quite common when our parents were young to talk of young women who had lost their sweethearts during the war. Many of them never married, and recently $1.5 million was gifted to Wellington College by 92-year-old Violet Dunn in memory of Tom Paul who was killed during World War II. She wanted to ensure that her beloved\u2019s memory would endure by giving the money to benefit the school he attended from 1931 to 1935.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ESimilarly, we find it hard to imagine how people felt about the wholesale loss of cultural property during those years. The destruction of heritage buildings, even whole towns, and the artworks, manuscripts, books, and scientific collections contained within, was devastating. Whole museums, libraries, and galleries disappeared and with them the works that were inside. The Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict was signed in 1954 because the high contracting parties believed that peace time was an opportunity to develop a future safeguard for cultural property. Interestingly, this was not the first attempt at the convention. There had already been conventions signed at The Hague\u2014one in 1899, which detailed the laws and customs of war on land and naval bombardment in time of war, and another in 1907. These were followed by the Washington Pact, signed in 1935, which particularly mentioned the protection of artistic and scientific institutions of historic monuments. But obviously none of these had worked. The 1954 convention focused on the protection and safeguarding of cultural property, ensuring respect for cultural property, particularly by any occupying forces, and the protection and transportation of movable cultural property and the personnel who looked after it. The convention also details the use of a distinctive emblem to identify cultural property, to be attached in time of peace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe first protocol was designed to prevent the exploitation of cultural property from occupied territories. It also requires each high contracting party to take into custody any property that is imported into its territory. The country is then responsible for returning that cultural property to the competent authorities in the territory previously occupied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe second protocol concerns measures to take in time of peace for safeguarding cultural property against the foreseeable effects of an armed conflict. It includes the requirement to prepare inventories, to have emergency plans to protect structures, and to remove movable cultural property. It also requires the designation of competent authorities to look after all of these measures. It also allows for a waiver in case there is an imperative military necessity. The waiver allows, on the basis of imperative military necessity, the ability to direct an act of hostility against cultural property if the cultural property has by its function been made into a military objective\u2014for example, a group of armed soldiers hiding out in a church and shooting their attackers\u2014and there is no feasible alternative available to obtain a similar military advantage to that offered by directing an act of hostility against that objective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe rest of the bill details offences and penalties, and detailed regulations about search, seizure, and forfeiture. It also outlines measures of compensation and the return of cultural property. I am pleased that National is supporting this bill. I hope that the use of its provisions will not be necessary in New Zealand or need to be used in reference to New Zealanders in other, war-torn countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022780eab45dbc94968901aa1bcbab2909a\u0022\u003EPolicing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5aff7396cff41deaf867f7209bf7e26\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000638\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 28 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa713248fc1543d3a19735388ed23027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa713248fc1543d3a19735388ed23027\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to speak in support of this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002270136b035dd445edbe4df59c3afa4417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270136b035dd445edbe4df59c3afa4417\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E On 25 October last year a crowd of over 700 kaum\u0101tua, pakeke, rangatahi, and tamariki marched through Rotorua in a peaceful protest against the police terrorism raids into T\u016Bhoe. They marched for civil liberties, they marched for indigenous rights, and they marched for justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOn that h\u012Bkoi were senior students from Te Kura Kaupapa M\u0101ori o Te Rotoiti. The tumuaki of the kura, Hawea Vercoe, told the crowd of the views of his students on hearing the news. During our k\u014Drero on the topic, he said, one student commented: \u201CIt must have been scary to have the police with guns coming to your house, especially when you are just waking up.\u201D Another student questioned the tactics used by the police by asking: \u201CIf the police thought there was trouble happening in the bush, why didn\u2019t they just go and see the kaum\u0101tua or call a hui at the marae?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn the years that lie ahead of us, those young people, those wh\u0101nau, and this nation will return again and again to the events of 15 October 2007 to question the role of the police. They will return, just as this year on 25 May we returned to Takaparawhau to reflect on the traumatic actions of 30 years ago, when State forces rudely, violently, and incorrectly arrested 222 people who were occupying Bastion Point. The year 1978 was one of many low points in contemporary M\u0101ori-police relations, with Tainui \u0100whiro\u2019s occupation of ancestral land also being rudely and violently interrupted by police arresting and charging those people with trespass on their own tribal burial grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo how wonderfully ironic it is, then, that 30 years later Angeline Greensill, M\u0101ori Party member of the House for Hauraki-Waikato, and R\u0101hui K\u0101tene, M\u0101ori Party member of the House for Te Tai Tonga, will take their rightful place in this House, for they are the children of Eva Rickard and Big John Hippolite, who were arrested at Raglan all those many years ago, and that they will be joined on the M\u0101ori Party list by Grant Hawke, the chairman of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua o \u014Cr\u0101kei Trust M\u0101ori Board, who, along with myself and hundreds of others, was arrested at Bastion Point in 1978. Those who think that those events are just bad memories to haunt the national psyche should please note that the T\u016Bhoe court cases are ongoing, and that the Independent Police Conduct Authority has still not released its findings on the shooting of Steven Wallace, who was killed by police in April 2000\u2014April 2000! The homicide inquiry was over by June 2000, the policeman was cleared of criminal charges in 2002, the coroner\u2019s findings were released in 2007, yet still the questions remain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI have taken the time to track back over some of these events of national significance because they form a crucial context to the Policing Bill, which aims to improve the effectiveness of the police, and which should take as a starting point the climate of anger, mistrust, and fear that still haunts those communities and many others besides. I have taken the time to track back over some of these events to remind the House that the purpose of this bill, which is to confirm and strengthen police operational and governance arrangements, will never be achieved until we take a genuinely fresh look at the powers of the police. The 60 recommendations of the Bazley report gave us some real pointers about what standards of conduct the police as an association, as a branch of Government, and even as an agency of social control should have, if there is to be any improvement in the relationship between police and M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EPolice wield great authority and considerable power in our society. It was disappointing to hear the arrogant dismissal by the Police Association\u2019s Greg O\u2019Connor of concerns about the Taser as being due to people being \u201Chijacked by political parties with points to score\u201D, or corrupted by the influence of minority interest groups making the Taser seem more dangerous than it is. Well, well, well! I wonder whether the British Defence Scientific Advisory Council\u2019s medical committee would consider itself to be a minority interest group for having the temerity to say that if children and adults were shot by a Taser, they were at great risk of suffering \u201Ca serious cardiac event\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMaybe Mr O\u2019Connor would like to volunteer to be the target of a Taser shot; not the controlled experiment that the police did for television, but one out on the street where one\u2019s head would not land on mats and would be likely to bounce off the concrete. I say that because I know that the police had a hell of a time trying to get some poor bugger to volunteer for the TV shot, and even though he knew what to expect he still screamed in agony and suffered the uncontrollable muscle spasms, the writhing body-wide cramps, and the total loss of control that the Taser causes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAfter Greg O\u2019Connor has been dropped screaming to the ground, maybe one of the politicians who support the Taser can go next, and maybe one of those members\u2019 teenage kids can go next\u2014especially those of the M\u0101ori politicians who support the use of the Taser, because, believe me, it is their kids and mine who are the prime targets for these weapons of torture. And let us do it out on the forecourt of Parliament, so that we can all see the pain and suffering that 50,000 volts will cause our kids, so that we can all hear the screaming, and so that we can all witness the horror that the Taser will bring to our streets. No takers? Nah, I did not think so. I can just see the Tui billboard now: \u201CTrue, Tasers don\u2019t hurt. Yeah, right\u201D. I know that members will ask \u201CWhy us? It\u2019s not us politicians committing crimes.\u201D But, in fact, we do. The only difference is that when we get snapped we just pass a law to make our wrongs right. It is a pity our kids out on the street cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe support the new human resource management processes, the new code of conduct, and any moves to improve police organisation, but I return to the key issue we face: the poor way that the police deal with communities, particularly M\u0101ori communities. That theme ran through many of the submissions that were presented. The M\u0101ori Party takes those views very, very seriously, and 3 weeks ago we argued for the inclusion of a Treaty clause to ensure that M\u0101ori would be involved in all decision making, from governance to operations. We proposed a simple amendment to the bill stating that \u201Cin interpreting and administering this Act, effect be given to the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D, thereby highlighting the Government\u2019s Treaty obligations and the need for the Government to do all it could to improve its relationship with M\u0101ori. That Treaty clause was voted down by every one of Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori MPs. Indeed, the only people with the courage and the foresight to support the Treaty were the M\u0101ori Party and the Greens, and my deepest thanks to the Greens for their support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe remember the use of armed police to destroy M\u0101ori communities all over the country, from the Hokianga to Takaparawhau, from Hauraki to Wh\u0101ingaroa, from T\u016Bhoe to Taranaki, and from 1846 right through to the cowardly police terrorist raids into T\u016Bhoe in 2007. We know only too well that our people will not forget the hurt and the pain inflicted by the forces of the State upon M\u0101ori. Given the refusal of the Government to recognise and deal with that history in an open and honest, Treaty-based manner, the M\u0101ori Party will be standing alongside its people in voting against this bill. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002228e1f9a54d8b4965916aa7add4c30f77\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Policing Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 48; New Zealand National 44; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6c60d23eace47a29b85ec2b4446d6fb\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022222b91d3bc86441da24122d1d3a7fe0f\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224c857a1155ae4612b1a5bef8b3f656d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c857a1155ae4612b1a5bef8b3f656d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Courts: I move, That the Adoption Amendment Bill, the Care of Children Amendment Bill (No 2), the Child Support Amendment Bill (No 2), the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 7), the Domestic Violence Amendment Bill, the Family Courts Amendment Bill (No 2), the Family Proceedings Amendment Bill, the Family Protection Amendment Bill, the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Amendment Bill, the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill, the Property (Relationships) Amendment Bill, and the Protection of Personal and Property Rights Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. I will just speak very briefly to the motion. The House has accorded strong support to this legislation proceeding through all its stages, and careful, but reasonably well accelerated, consideration was given to this legislation in the Social Services Committee when it formed part of the Family Courts Matters Bill. I particularly thank all those members who participated in the Committee stage of the legislation for their thoughtful comments. I notice that Dr Paul Hutchison and, I think, Paula Bennett and Chester Borrows took part in the Committee stage of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI think this is an area where traditionally the House has tended to try to adopt a relatively non-partisan approach, recognising that Family Court matters involve some of the most difficult and sensitive matters in our judicial system, and usually deal with people who are at very difficult points in their lives. I think, quite properly, that members have stressed the fact that in proceedings before the court, the interests of the children, particularly, need to be paramount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb407cad7a554323bec7a1d19e48b853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb407cad7a554323bec7a1d19e48b853\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is indeed with pleasure that I rise to support the 12 bills divided from the Family Courts Matters Bill. I must say that it is quite astounding how confused the Labour Government has become\u2014perhaps confused and tired\u2014as it gets to the end of its term in Government. It was only about half an hour ago that it suggested we would have these third readings another day, but suddenly they are here. Labour members are shaking their heads; maybe they are even more confused!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAs Dr Cullen says, this legislation is very, very profoundly important. His comment is slightly at odds with the comments of his colleague the Hon Rick Barker, who in the debate on the first reading of the original bill said that it was just a technical bill. Clearly, it was the direct opposite. This legislation is profoundly important, and, indeed, it deals with matters that are exquisitely sensitive, and it is very important to make sure we get those matters right. I know that, as the constituent MP for the most excellent electorate of Port Waikato, some of my most distressing moments occur when I am visited by constituents who have had bad experiences in the Family Court. I guess that is because so often the matter is to do with children or with relationships that have come apart. For those reasons, it is very important that the court is able to work efficiently, effectively, and, of course, sensibly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the most powerful submissions to the Social Services Committee was from Peter Boshier, the Principal Family Court Judge. He made great emphasis of the fact that it was important to have expert, qualified counsellors, psychologists, and mediators, that they should all be registered, and that there should be continuous quality control. They must be people of high professional quality. He made a great point of emphasising that. I made the point in the select committee that it was quite interesting to hear mediators suggest that they should be paid as much for their services as lawyers are paid for theirs. They felt that the part they played was just as important as, if not more important than, the part lawyers played. My legal friends around me wondered whether that was being a bit adventurous on their part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EJudge Boshier pointed out that although judges sort out the legal aspects of disputes, in many respects it is not appropriate for them to carry out mediation or counselling. They are not the experts in it. He made a comment that the courts had a backlog of something like 6,000 to 7,000 cases in this area at the time of his submission, and he pointed out how important it was that expert mediators and counsellors be available. He also pointed out that several pilot schemes had been carried out, and they showed that while judges might have only a limited time to spend on counselling or mediation, the professional mediators had up to 6 hours of mediation available to them through the court, and he felt that that was the best use of time in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI remember that he cited a very poignant case of a child aged 12 who said that he never wanted to see his father again. Judge Boshier asked the young fellow whether, if he met his father in the street, he would say hello. The boy said: \u201CNo. I\u2019d walk across to the other side and I wouldn\u2019t have anything to do with him.\u201D The point Judge Boshier was making was that it was extremely sad that things had got to that situation, and how important it was that that young man be given the chance of mediation and counselling by experts to sort out, hopefully, the very, very difficult emotional state that he was in with regard to his father, and, hopefully, that relationship could be mended in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the other really important parts of the legislation is the opening up of the courts, and the really important balance that must be struck between open justice and the privacy of the individuals, children, and families who are involved. We heard that the Australian courts are open, but that the repercussions for the families, and, in particular, the children, sometimes can be profoundly negative. I think I quoted earlier on what the English Law Commission had said about it. It said: \u201CWhat is more serious is that the parties, and more especially, their innocent children whose identity is frequently revealed as a result of the details which can be published, suffer the disturbing experience of having the most intimate details of the family life exposed. While it may be said that the parties have only themselves to blame, no such argument can apply to their children whose privacy the law takes pain to protect in other cases.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhat is very important is striking the balance that is necessary to be able to deal with the tensions that can occur in the Family Court. Judge Boshier pointed out how important it is for the judges to have complete control of the court, and to have the absolute authority to ask people to leave when that is necessary, and that ability is very clearly pointed out in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that came out in the select committee was the missed opportunity to deal with DNA testing. I will not repeat the extraordinary case in the Pukekohe District Court where I was called to be an expert witness, but I think it is very important that the court system comes right up to par with modern scientific practice, because families and children are missing out if it does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EJust to end, this is very important legislation. The National Party is very glad to support it, and I look forward to the contributions to be made by my expert colleagues Chris Finlayson and Chester Borrows, who have spent much of their professional careers in the courts and undoubtedly have a lot to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022b33f6fdb34cb4342bf13ce6b986d729d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b33f6fdb34cb4342bf13ce6b986d729d\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to make a short contribution. It is important to note that this legislation is important. That may seem to be a silly thing to say, but in actual fact it will change the nature of Family Court jurisprudence in this country and the way in which it is administered. National believes that it will be a much fairer system for people to enter into at a time that is filled with acrimony and hostility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ENew ways of addressing old issues within the Family Court will make the movement through a procedure in that court much more enduring and lasting, we hope. For instance, there is the matter of having to balance open justice and the privacy of individuals, but with openness and transparency may well come enduring resolutions. One of the main hallmarks of this legislation is the emphasis on counselling and mediation for those who are going through the process, mediation before proceedings are formally commenced, and the ability to cut a less hostile track through highly strung emotions at a time when matters start going through the Family Court processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe other very sound practice that will be initiated under this legislation is the recommendation that children attend counselling when day-to-day care, contact, or guardianship is in dispute. Earlier, my friend Dr Paul Hutchison raised the incident of the young child who did not want to see his father. The father sought the intervention of the court so that the young boy could see his father, who, I understand, was in a bad way. That is just indicative of the sorts of resolutions we may get through this legislation, and that is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is so often the case that if only one party has access to a young child, then it is that party\u2019s view that is transferred on to the child, and there is no understanding of the child, of why he or she is feeling that way, or of why the child is being encouraged or forced to feel that way. I know, from speaking to young children who have been treated a bit like a piece of toffee, pulled this way and that, during Family Court proceedings, that years down the track they wish they had seen things in a different way or had been able to stand back and take a more objective view. It is my contention that being exposed to counselling during this process will encourage even quite young people to have a more objective view of what is happening before them. The decisions and the views that are then conveyed to the court by counsel for the child will be those that will encourage a far more enduring resolution in the Family Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWe have also discussed in other stages of the debate the fact that we have such an adversarial system, and we have questioned whether it is correctly applied to Family Court proceedings. I expressed the view, as others did, that in years to come we may get to a stage in this country where we look at a more conciliatory and constructive approach towards Family Court proceedings, and move away from a strictly adversarial model. That just sets one view against another, and things are hammered out, and in the end I am sure the courts end up making a resolution that neither party is totally happy with. But they have to make a decision on winners and losers, and that is very sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ENational members hope that this bill will improve the situation of New Zealand families who are involved in the Family Court process, and that the improvement to processes and procedures will lead to better outcomes for those families. It is in all of our interests that people who engage in the courts within our country believe that they have been given a fair hearing. Even if, at the end of proceedings, they are unhappy with the total outcome, they can latch on to some parts of the resolutions that come from the court processes and see that they were reached in a fair and understanding way, from their point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022889a42f7bd024be49f4c2b12a8ac961b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022889a42f7bd024be49f4c2b12a8ac961b\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E As Dr Hutchison said, National supports the third readings of this legislation. I have not taken part in the Committee stage, but I have followed this legislation very closely, because I think it raises a number of very important issues, and I want to make just a brief contribution on a couple of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThis type of litigation is hugely sensitive. In fact, it is one of the most difficult areas of court work any lawyer or judge can be involved in. A key issue this legislation tries to deal with is the extent to which Family Courts should be open to the public, and by that I also include the media. It is a basic principle, when one deals with our justice system, that there be openness in our court proceedings. By that, it is suggested that the courts should be open to the public so that if a member of the public wants to sit at the back of the court and watch a proceeding, then he or she should be entitled to. There are very few exceptions to this. Sometimes one can have hearings in chambers, and in very rare circumstances one can have in-camera hearings, but the general principle is one of publicity or openness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI think that the Social Services Committee has dealt very well with this issue in trying to weigh up the kinds of factors involved in determining who should have access to the courts, and in what circumstances. I commend the select committee for that, and I hope that as this legislation comes into force, this difficult issue will be able to be resolved more clearly in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is related to clause 9 of the Care of Children Amendment Bill (No 2), which makes some changes to the Care of Children Act 2004. There are some excellent provisions dealing with the duty of lawyers to promote reconciliation and conciliation, and they will come under new section 46D of the Care of Children Act, and there is also a new section 46E, \u201CDuty of Courts as to reconciliation and conciliation\u201D. I really think it is so important a principle of law that it does need to be spelt out in statute. There are some who would say that it is implicit anyway, but I think it needs to be clear beyond doubt that a lawyer has a duty to ensure that the spouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner is aware of the facilities that exist for promoting reconciliation and conciliation, and, furthermore, that the lawyer takes such further steps as he or she thinks fit, as may be necessary to assist in promoting reconciliation, or if reconciliation is not possible, then conciliation. Similar provisions exist in relation to the court, and I cannot emphasise enough the importance of that kind of approach to the conduct of family litigation. Indeed, I go further than this; I believe that those provisions should form part of the general law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI think it was a few weeks ago that Dr Worth, speaking in the House on a particular judicial bill, referred to a statement by Lord Denning many years ago. Lord Denning was a former Master of the Rolls in England, a highly respected judge revered by students for generations, who once said: \u201CIn litigation as in war, if one side makes a mistake, the other side can seize upon it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut there has been a sea change in the attitude to litigation, particularly civil litigation, in recent years, and the approach is that it is the obligation of the lawyer to join with the judge in getting to the truth of the matter. So, in litigation, there has really been a move to \u201Ccards face up on the table\u201D rather than thinking one is playing a game of poker in litigation. This legislation takes it a step further and imposes a particular obligation on lawyers to promote reconciliation, and I think, as this Parliament reviews the civil justice system in the years to come, there is a very good argument that those general principles should also apply to those who are engaged in civil litigation, because far too much delay and expense is incurred when lawyers play games. There are tedious interlocutory applications, and matters seem to go on for an eternity rather than cutting to the chase and helping clients resolve their disputes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next set of rules, or sections, I want to refer to\u2014and again they are introduced by clause 9 into the Care of Children Act\u2014deal with mediation, and the rules relating to mediation are spelt out in some considerable detail. I think it is probably a good thing for this Parliament to address what some may think are questions of procedure. They are hugely significant issues, and rather than people fighting it out in court, mediation or alternative dispute resolution is, certainly, in my opinion, the way to go in this type of litigation. Mediation developed some 20 or so years ago, and it and other forms of alternative dispute resolution are a fundamental part of the justice system, but especially in family-type litigation, where it is very desirable that the parties should try to mediate their difficulties because it is so much cheaper. One can also deal with issues far more expeditiously, and then folk can get on with their lives after what\u2014after all\u2014is a very traumatic part of their lives. So I commend the Social Services Committee for the work it has done in bringing into some of these statutes\u2014and I will not go through all of the statutes\u2014some comprehensive procedures relating to mediation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe final matter that really needs to be emphasised\u2014and it is picked up in a number of provisions\u2014is the avoidance of unnecessary formality. Rather strangely, there is a reference in new subsection (2), inserted in section 10 of the Family Courts Act by clause 44 of the Family Courts Amendment Bill, to the requirement: \u201CA Judge sitting in a Family Court may wear a gown, but must not wear a wig.\u201D I do not think judges have ever worn wigs in the Family Court. New subsection (3) in section 10 states: \u201CA lawyer appearing in a Family Court must not wear a gown or a wig.\u201D It may be considered that those provisions are otiose, but they certainly bring home the point that the Family Court is not a place for formality, but is a place where lawyers and judges are expected to act, obviously, in a formal way, but not with unnecessary formality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAlthough I was not involved with the Committee stage of the legislation I think the select committee and the Committee are to be commended for the work they have done in this very sensitive area of the law. A number of statutes have been amended, and I think the end product is very good indeed. But as I said, I would be particularly interested to follow the development of the mediation rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe other thing I will be very interested to follow\u2014and this is in relation to those clauses that I dealt with earlier about the duty of lawyers\u2014is the question of lawyers who breach that duty. Will there be professional sanctions against them, or could there, in fact, be civil sanctions? That is one of those interesting issues that I know is going to arise, and we will have to wait and see how it is played out. National supports the third reading of this important legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d683ec2083324e25898bcc7235a10e85\u0022\u003EWalking Access Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250d8891f85084953814b4398f53264cc\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000682\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b35b31583634176b1ff6a23566efeef\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220f5980695a2c441cb1e637fad5f27d6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f5980695a2c441cb1e637fad5f27d6c\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the Walking Access Bill. It is a good bill and the reason National supports it is that it is National Party policy, and it has taken the Government only 5 years to come around to its position on access over private land. The key to why National supports this bill is that it does not impinge on private property rights. That is a position National has long held. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhen Labour first introduced the walking access issue\u2014and it shows just how out of touch Labour is with the primary sector\u2014it called for the creation of compulsory walking strips across private land. Compulsory walking strips bring to mind the proposals the Government made in relation to the new dog control laws. Do members remember that Labour wanted to have private fenced-off walking strips between the front gate and the home? When the Government was exploring that particular daft idea I had visions of people who, like me, live on State Highway 1. There is a long area from our front gate to our home. I could just imagine a fenced private walking strip to provide safe access to our front door and protect people from our lovely old Labrador, who would have licked them to death. But I go back to the Walking Access Bill. The particularly daft idea of the Labour Government some 5 years ago has been dropped, and we now have the Walking Access Bill in its current form, which National does support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Local Government and Environment Committee received a number of submissions\u201430 or 40, I think\u2014on the Walking Access Bill. A number of people were very concerned that designating a public walkway across a paper road would then cut off vehicular access to the paper road. That was a huge concern of submitters, and rightly so. But that was dropped from the bill\u2014yet again at select committee\u2014by National members advocating for people to have access. We have the most beautiful country in the world. The South Island is arguably the most beautiful part of the most beautiful country in the world, and a number of people in the South Island are very keen on access to our beautiful lakes, our beautiful rivers, our beautiful fishing spots, and our beautiful high country tracks. One could go on forever about access opportunities. This bill will negotiate access via the New Zealand Walking Access Commission. But the key for National is that nothing in this bill impinges on private property rights. That is sensible. That is a position that National can endorse and agree with. So from that point of view National supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe provisions of this bill establish the New Zealand Walking Access Commission, and I will go into the commission\u2019s role in more detail. Its members will be appointed by the Minister. I would be very disappointed to see any appointments made after this enactment of this bill, because there is such a short time to go before the election. I would be interested in comments from the Minister on that. I would be extremely disappointed if long-held conventions of this House were disregarded, as they were last weekend when the Minister of Conservation made up to 50 appointments to conservation boards. That is not in the good spirit of this Parliament, and I hope it does not happen. I ask the Minister to take a call on that and give us some indication as to whether, upon the enactment of this bill, the Minister intends to make appointments to the Walking Access Commission. I invite the Minister to answer that query. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ELast week I attended a function for members of the Walking Access Consultation Panel. A number of people from around New Zealand sat on that panel and did an awful lot of good work. I must say that I think the work of John Aspinall of W\u0101naka was particularly useful, because as a high country farmer himself he understands very well what it is like to own a beautiful part of New Zealand where people want to visit. It is a very, very strongly held belief of his that access is by negotiation and not by compulsion\u2014and compulsion is just typical of Labour. That is what Labour members want, is it not? That is what they wanted when this bill was first introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI want to finish this thought, because I think it is important. The Labour Government wanted to have compulsory walkways over private land. Not only is that impractical and expensive but it impinges on every private property right held very dear by people in New Zealand. High country farmers in the South Island and other private landowners have no problem with providing access to the most beautiful features of their properties. In fact, it is a convention in New Zealand that if a fisherman, a four-wheel driver, a tramper, or someone horse-trekking wants to go across private land, he or she rings the landowner and asks for permission. That permission is given and away one goes. That permission might be withheld if lambing is going on or if the property is a deer farm and one wants to visit at a certain time of year. But, in general, there was no problem with access, and nothing actually needed fixing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe good thing about this bill is that the Labour Government has come right round to the right position. It has taken it 5 years but the Government has come right round to National\u2019s position of providing access by negotiation, not compulsion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022420b43ca6d3f487eae5257fec9632140\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022420b43ca6d3f487eae5257fec9632140\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Walking Access Bill, and I am pleased to hear that National does. I just want to talk a little bit about property rights, because in case Jacqui has not had a look around lately\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aca4f84fef694d14bfdf6dfc2af20c43\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would prefer to be referred to by my correct name, if that is alright with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0d6613e1404a18ae16fbb41e00ada1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: You are absolutely right. Mr Woolerton\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a208e0bf5834278852a20b2c2309d49\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Chairman. I could not remember the lady\u2019s proper name at the time so I had to refer to her as I did. If that gave offence I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI wanted to say that the previous speaker probably does not recognise the changing face of the rural environment, given that the National Party does not take the interest in that sector that it once did. My brother, for instance, has a property that encompasses the properties of 10 previous owners. One of them was the property of Bill Waring\u2014Marilyn Waring\u2019s father. Just to rock up to a farmer\u2019s gate and ask for permission to go across the property is not what will be the case in many instances. One is more likely to be talking to the manager of a property, who will be far more reluctant to give permission to anybody to wander across the property to access lakes, streams, or rivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe setting up of a commission is an ideal way to go. I think this will be a start. I think walkways will become a part of the landscape in future, and they will be surveyed and recognised. It will not be a grace and favour situation where a property owner says: \u201CYes, I am in a good mood today so I will let you walk across my property.\u201D, or in the future, the property of his or her employer. In New Zealand we need to respect the fact that there is not just one lot of property rights. There is private ownership and there is the public right to access rivers, streams, and so on. That is what makes us unique, and different from the country that many of us or our forefathers hail from, and, indeed, from the country in whose traditions this Parliament was established. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIn that country\u2014in many parts of Europe, and particularly in England\u2014the landowner controlled the lakes, streams, rivers, etc., and if one wanted to fish in the stream or on the lake, then one had to pay the landowner. In this country we must protect those other sets of rights: the rights of people to have free and unfettered access to their lakes, streams, and rivers\u2014not the landholder\u2019s lakes, streams, and rivers. We in New Zealand First say that if a track needs to be surveyed across that property\u2014not fenced, but identified\u2014we are more than happy that compensation be paid to the landowner. We are more than happy if that person has to be compensated in some way for any inconvenience whatsoever. We are happy for that to happen. We hope the commission established by this bill will look at these things into the future, and we hope these things will be common practice in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think the bill enhances our lifestyle; I do not think anybody who owns farms will have anything to fear from it. In saying this I acknowledge somebody who has been perhaps rather harshly treated in recent history on this issue, and that is the Hon Jim Sutton, who initially started this bill. The Walking Access Bill has been finessed out of a bill that he proposed. We would have had trouble supporting his original bill, but that is the way democracy works, and that is progress. We are happy to support this bill and happy to support Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223e932ba5df1c4e87a5f2da889223175c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e932ba5df1c4e87a5f2da889223175c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move that the Committee report progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022fad55b92321a488eb94958d1021f5c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fad55b92321a488eb94958d1021f5c4a\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would have thought that we have another 5 minutes of debating time before we report progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb4ea132ae42493da266000be01bdde5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb4ea132ae42493da266000be01bdde5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E If we have members rising to take a call and the motion cannot be moved by 6 o\u2019clock, we will be here from 7 o\u2019clock onwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227236da5f4c16491087286a877bdf1254\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I will report progress. [Interruption] We could well be here until 7 o\u2019clock\u2014or longer\u2014if that is repeated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002267fe65ff846c4e9e902b6401e2e9930d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267fe65ff846c4e9e902b6401e2e9930d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I make the next announcement, I thank the staff. It has been a long time, and people have been working really hard over these last few days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200809024537b37527404d368fbf11df2673cc4c000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.52 p.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"