"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002279dba735cf5d4aeb954ce32bca455869\u0022\u003ETuesday, 15 September 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022624b993de9ff41879949ee5f880724f0\u0022\u003ETuesday, 15 September 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282f77f7e3287450cbdcec2569e1e6bc9\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202fdcd1f9ba44b1691a5b3a0a03bce94\u0022\u003EUnited States\u2014American Council of Young Political Leaders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002285ea06eda2b8421ea4cc67df7282bed3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285ea06eda2b8421ea4cc67df7282bed3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing the House that a delegation from the American Council of Young Political Leaders is present in the gallery. I am sure members would wish that the delegation be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0267ba0700a4571afb877edada7c93a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b1d0c3009d34692a10c74c1c4a44047\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b76fbb8d3f845b2b991eb2376785c09\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7debaad8b404d30a1f4ef0de121b0d1\u0022\u003E1. AMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he received on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002285708c34cd9e4844b5d87a4ec2e64740\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285708c34cd9e4844b5d87a4ec2e64740\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have received reports indicating that the economy is showing some early signs of recovery, which are welcome, but sustainable growth and higher incomes will be possible only if our businesses and exporters are supporting jobs. New Zealand\u2019s terms of trade in the June quarter actually fell by 9 percent, the largest quarterly fall since 1975. In terms of trade, it is the lowest since September 2006, so we have some work to do to turn this economy round to an export-led recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608dfe1ce4a2468b8f8477da85540656\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on alternative policy approaches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1626bc74125423891f8bc47f7f7d980\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports at the weekend that the Labour Opposition would borrow billions of dollars a year extra to support a range of policies, including widening the benefit system to the spouses of people who have lost their jobs, reversing KiwiSaver changes, and increasing the size of the Wellington-based bureaucracy. This wish list adds up to $6 billion a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c7f02e3afa4cbe9239085a03f9db45\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon David Cunliffe. [Interruption] I have called the Hon David Cunliffe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d98b8b9595ce4532a2c69082e7c30d70\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why can his Government afford $1.6 billion of taxpayer subsidies to the heaviest polluters, or one-third of its tax cuts going to the top 3 percent of earners, or $35 million of subsidies to private schools while we are saving nickel and dime out of adult and community education; and who is he to talk in this House about priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269512615330c4e9cbd26decd6d3d6d30\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Who is that party to lecture the Government when the heart of its last coalition agreement was a large donation to its coalition partner? In respect of the emissions trading scheme, the Government has struck the right balance between its economic responsibilities and its environmental responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b99ff5756604464bcadb9d54305ae11\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What would be the effects of extra borrowing on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259756e9077c5439695e160516fccd15e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is already facing cash deficits of $10 billion to $12 billion over the next 4 years, as we endeavour to maintain entitlements and public services through a recession. Further borrowing of $6 billion, as advocated by the Labour Party, would represent a borrowing binge and raise the prospect of a credit downgrade and a sharp increase in interest rates for homeowners and businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205de8c0978ef4f33898beb7d6a664911\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that at the time of the last general election New Zealand\u2019s net Government debt was approximately zero, and can he further confirm that in the last few months of the outgoing Government gross sovereign debt was below 20 percent; if so, when is he going to stop blaming the recession for every piece of indecision and bad policy from his Government and grow up and govern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a75d37d8aa428da5e4f541d6c93728\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The evidence for 10 years of economic mismanagement under Labour is pretty compelling. What I will say is that the further $6 billion of promises that the Opposition has made will be difficult for it to defend at the next election, because the public knows that endless debt is bad for the economy and bad for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226edb830f965e4a49b04eb900bd7d3cd0\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What other views has the Minister seen about Governments saddling taxpayers with extra debt\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204759f3d22d446419abab6792c5613ee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Hon Bill English hear the question? I apologise for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b17c9aa5124b5ba7a8d8bc6d7ef073\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s got it written down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227515ece666b746738982e06d73ec6676\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf6a43e6fcb4780bd02645d3b18b638\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to repeat it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a922f8185780442abc44d8fccbd538f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have allowed a fair bit of noise, because this is obviously an issue that excites some interest, but I think when a member at the back of the House is asking a supplementary question we should have a reasonable level of interjection, or, at least, we should desist from too much interjection. I invite Amy Adams to repeat her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f3b3b8e45274158bb10331ecb362785\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What other views has the Minister seen about Governments saddling taxpayers with extra debt by reckless borrowing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295ad8277476a4b40ae8e4c9b3a023337\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen one such view, which described the idea of any extra Government borrowing as hilarious and crazy, and I will quote from it: \u201CI just think it\u2019s mind boggling stupid. You go out and borrow at a time when the international markets are in crisis?\u201D. Those comments came from Helen Clark, the former leader of the party that has now promised $6 billion of extra borrowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c7e2110180d463e812fcf64bd7f1e5e\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Gross Domestic Emissions Forecast\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e2769508f04aecab68c3e66d295976\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: When are New Zealand\u2019s gross domestic emissions forecast to peak and permanently decline under the Government\u2019s proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1751d9bd9d24b5fb9f4d13a64704358\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1751d9bd9d24b5fb9f4d13a64704358\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand\u2019s emissions have grown from 61 million tonnes in 1990 to 76 million tonnes last year, and are projected to go up to 86 million tonnes in 2020 on a business-as-usual basis. Determining the future profile of emissions is difficult because under both the current and the revised emissions trading schemes such analysis depends on the long-term carbon price. That price is, in turn, very dependent on the success of future international negotiations. If we make reasonable assumptions about the carbon price and prospective forestry investment, I am advised that our emissions relative to Kyoto Protocol rules would peak late next decade and be 20 percent down on business as usual, or down by 16 million tonnes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f608602ed54f9891730999628e81ef\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked about gross emissions and the Minister answered about net emissions. Perhaps that can be taken into account as I ask my supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd723d47d2254540b66f6704d1248d06\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hear what the member says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd683ba0973a4062815777d780566594\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Or perhaps the Minister would like to reply in terms of gross emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299618f331c7b454ebd413783084bae35\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister gave a pretty comprehensive answer. I think there was no attempt to evade the question, but I appreciate that in terms of the member asking her supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226325278e24b548dc8c9fcac77f5c71fd\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the Minister\u2019s reply about net\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e177c627245489992d69d226cfcf175\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In respect of the comprehensiveness of the Minister\u2019s answer, I agree that it was. The point I would like to make to you is that this question was on notice. The words \u201Cgross\u201D and \u201Cnet\u201D mean very different things in terms of climate change matters, and the word \u201Cgross\u201D was in the question on notice. The Minister, at the end of his answer, gave the pivotal distinction of net emissions, and in that respect he did not address the question that he had several hours to look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b23c1e59a1b14938996d955bde2e016b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister has the data on gross emissions, I invite him to provide that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d0f242b48954b498ce9a34b0aa69d70\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In my answer I referred to the fact that the analysis is very sensitive to the carbon price. The gross emissions are particularly sensitive to the carbon price, and that is why I gave the advice I have received in respect of the net emissions as per the rules of the current Kyoto Protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d2f32751ea4578a42079cca8aeda97\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister not confirming that his Government intends that New Zealand\u2019s gross domestic climate change emissions will continue to rise indefinitely because an intensity or output-based allocation means that the more one\u2019s pollution grows, the bigger the subsidy one gets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfde2011f79f47b0931c1f6810d012a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I think we all accept that the problem of global warming is indeed a global problem. This Government takes the view that to send an industry like steel, or aluminium, or cement offshore so that the emissions occur somewhere else on the planet provides absolutely no benefit other than exporting jobs. That is why our emissions trading scheme is focused on providing an incentive for energy efficiency, and not for exporting jobs and emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219660fd60deb481fb05f79af4a278cba\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. How do the variations to the emissions trading scheme agreed with the M\u0101ori Party compare with those agreed in Labour\u2019s minority report and in discussions with the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ade3ad8c93742f0bca5b28473156a86\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is not much, and that is why I find Labour\u2019s trenchant criticism of the M\u0101ori Party and of the revised scheme a bit unfair. Labour agreed to the entry date of 1 July for stationary energy, transport, and electricity. Labour agreed to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da6675c2fc345169b39f1a46247222f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question asked the Minister to make comment on matters for which he bears no responsibility whatsoever: first, the minority report of a political party of which he is not a member; and, second, negotiations that he is now proceeding to misrepresent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d19d0a7529d34c1893a79838336a2bd4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f1bd151084143f681070ce5e27a7aa2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure I need the Minister\u2019s comment. I am happy to rule on the matter. The Minister was asked to compare a couple of sets of information, which the Minister is perfectly at liberty to do. There is absolutely nothing out of order about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8ab6317f86442093b1fc77063f647b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the revised emissions trading scheme takes an intensity approach, which was agreed by members opposite. It also provides for a transitional fixed price, and a transitional fixed price was agreed to by Labour. It is most remarkable for Labour to describe our scheme as fiscally irresponsible. That is pretty strange, because Labour\u2019s proposed changes were going to cost about the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9e04b0e0a94261a920869d280456c8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister\u2019s earlier answer a confirmation that this Government has no intention at all of moving New Zealand to a low-carbon economy, but instead simply wishes to pass the cost onto the next generation of Parliament\u2019s Ministers and New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc23ee40b0b46e79098cee9944481d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all. I point out that the revised emissions trading scheme that has been agreed to by the Government and the M\u0101ori Party takes in more sectors on 1 July next year than are covered by the European emissions trading scheme. I note that we will be the only country outside of Europe to have an emissions trading scheme operating on 1 July next year, and that our scheme is broadly in line with that proposed by Australia. That, therefore, shows we have appropriately balanced New Zealand\u2019s economic interests as well as the importance of the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d0f5153ddac46899bd30440d4eccda2\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that this scheme will cost the Government billions of dollars in paying for industry emissions as a consequence of the slow phase-out of industry support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcfb2c4d074a40e89ea4b521b7b4704c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I am surprised that claim has been made. The previous Government\u2019s scheme had the Government budgeting to make $23 billion from the sale of emissions units\u2014$23 billion. The phase-out that is being proposed in our revised scheme, which is broadly in line with Australia, effectively has it so that it is fiscally neutral\u2014that is, the Government does not make a whole lot of money from the emissions trading scheme but nor does it cost the Government. I know that with the proposed changes to the scheme, our phase-out is in line with our medium and long-term emissions reduction targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd611d634b764af7b36b2fcc5b8dc442\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister so hell-bent on aligning with a non-existent Australian scheme that may never pass through the Australian Parliament when that alignment makes it impossible to align with the existing European Union scheme, or the proposed United States or Japanese schemes, none of which will accept intensity-based allocations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140bb5c0ffae4822be3f7dbfe686a21f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is misinformed. It is interesting that officials from both Australia and New Zealand have been invited to Washington as they work on the Waxman-Markey Bill before the United States Congress specifically on this issue of an intensity-based approach. I also note that in communications from European Governments that is the approach they are intending to take in the next phase of their emissions trading scheme for the very reason that an intensity-based approach is an intelligent way of dealing with the problem of leakage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e83ce3443d479194225bed99d834f9\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of persevering with a scheme that has such a low price of carbon that it will not change anyone\u2019s behaviour, where half of New Zealand\u2019s emissions are left outside for 6 years, and where the big polluters get bigger incentives to pollute with more free credits; how will that scheme have any environmental benefits whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224242ed011e914aeda739f61560c90f83\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I point out that the scheme we are planning to introduce involves a very substantive cost. We are talking about 50 million units of obligations at a cost of $25 each. There are a number of technologies that become economic for reducing emissions. I also point out that climate change is a long-term issue. These are transitional measures. Frankly, this Parliament has been debating a carbon tax and an emissions trading scheme for the whole time I have been here, and I think it is an important first step to make that start on 1 July next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002228bb68a61c6b419baf2af149328ca3ed\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Subsidising of Heavy Emitters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096c3c9211644dde8227ff25ef6dd996\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cif you can get to the point where it\u2019s settled between the two major parties, then that can give a sense of security and predictability for the business community and consumers?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e00716e9ba4c4927a4f67f95d1ab06fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e00716e9ba4c4927a4f67f95d1ab06fb\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f7fc4551b1438fa6679e33b9644046\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: If certainty and predictability are important, can the Prime Minister tell the House what the Treasury estimates are of the extra billions of dollars in costs that will be imposed on New Zealanders and their families, as taxpayers, by subsidies being extended and the period of time that heavy emitters are subsidised by the taxpayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269fd40c2d394b1f942b0c210e2bfe63\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the Treasury costings to hand, but I can say that the National Government\u2019s scheme, which is supported by United Future and the M\u0101ori Party, will impose half the cost on New Zealand consumers and will keep New Zealanders in work\u2014something we on this side of the House care about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022758b778cd18e479aa982f599b6b259cc\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister seriously telling the House that he has made a major announcement, and he does not know from Treasury the additional costs that will be incurred by that announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4ace531d0bc40e3940d4c281ba7761f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am saying that I do not have the costs to hand. I really do not understand why the member is getting so agitated. I have been reliably informed that the cost of our\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022399453cb0ef3472684c84412a2907e2f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f6d656177dd4fd88dac5fb5ce7448f2\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014emissions trading scheme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7c51dd1e4b54a63884973762334465f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was not the Hon Prime Minister I was calling to order. Now that I have interrupted, though, I will ask the Hon Trevor Mallard to stand, withdraw, and apologise for the allegation he made across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa83cd0f39b49ed86fdf72180a76963\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421f6a6bfe3e48f3bb8816c542601179\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Prime Minister estimated that the emissions trading scheme will impose an extra cost of $400 million on the taxpayer in the first 3 years, basing that figure on a carbon cost of $25 per tonne, when he knows that as a result of the Copenhagen discussions the cost will probably be twice that level, and could well be four times that level, adding up to a cost for the New Zealand taxpayer potentially as high as $1.6 billion in the first 3 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202ce0d82b85744b4b60544cdb0c711b3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because I believe the figure to be correct. Let us assume for a moment that the Leader of the Opposition is correct. What he is saying, therefore, is that he wants consumers in New Zealand to face an increase in the price of petrol of 14c a litre, and that he wants New Zealanders to have a 40 percent increase in their electricity costs. Funnily enough, at the weekend he was saying he cared about the Kiwi battler. That is a funny way of showing his love for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f18255732a754c53a9aa90bc56d336de\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Prime Minister pretending that the average New Zealander will be better off, when he has brought forward the increased price in petrol, and when average New Zealand taxpayers will literally be paying thousands of dollars more in their taxes to subsidise heavy emitters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223930b52c344445989e37efa2c80b03a0\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, because they will not. Secondly, because, unlike the Labour Party, we actually care whether New Zealand businesses stay here, we care whether New Zealanders are employed, and we care whether New Zealanders get a fair deal. Frankly, I cannot see why the Leader of the Opposition is so concerned about our emissions trading scheme. I am reliably informed that running a Triumph 850 will cost half what it would have cost under the Labour scheme. That is something the member should be happy about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fdfacb86a8a4969b4ec8fdc9c7ad1d3\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Prime Minister made changes that take the costs off the heavy emitters, thereby reducing the incentive for them to cut their pollution, and place the costs on ordinary New Zealand families through their taxes? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223635e9b902d844e6abd62668192b8242\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I call the honourable Prime Minister, I ask members at the back of the Chamber to cut the ridiculous noise being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022200655028c4d4d79ace2b9a0c99100e0\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfcbab77f84f4a49a9c263a73c82eeb8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be no comment on my request, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab24c37983e24b7aa277173e9e2f3624\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because as the Minister for Climate Change Issues pointed out just a few moments ago, climate change is a global problem. The Leader of the Opposition might think it makes sense to close down Comalco, New Zealand Steel, and a number of other major New Zealand companies, and to have them be established in some other part of the world, but on this side of the House we do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279538c2009e84f699a611edc5437c8b3\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Prime Minister\u2019s proposed emissions trading scheme consistent with his objective of balancing environmental and economic needs, when it will increase pollution by reducing incentives to cut emissions, and will place on Kiwi taxpayers billions of dollars in extra costs by subsidising heavy emitters over a much longer period of time\u201440 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b135cfc025446e3a5a66a5df2af1eca\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, the Leader of the Opposition might think it is a good idea for New Zealand to be put at such a tremendous economic disadvantage to Australia\u2014and that is why we are in the economic mess we are in\u2014but on this side of the House we do not. On this side of the House we are interested in developing jobs, making sure that Kiwis are employed, and making sure that our scheme is affordable. With our scheme, by 2015 it will have \u201Call markets, all gases\u201D at a price that is affordable to New Zealanders. That is why the scheme has been so well received by Kiwis right up and down the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d74d4ac71ec434cb584a5f23ae138d2\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Major Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508be57664d944b488763aec07047161\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: What are the major changes the Government is making to the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00229622e01292e44d92a92de18ecfb1e7fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229622e01292e44d92a92de18ecfb1e7fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, we want to lessen the impacts on households and businesses, so we have introduced a phased introduction of the emissions trading scheme that will halve the impact on power and fuel prices. Secondly, we are amending the transitional industry support to encourage efficiency without exporting investment and jobs. The revised scheme\u2019s approach to industry is very close to that proposed in Australia. Thirdly, we have adjusted to a more realistic timetable, with stationary energy, industrial processes, and transport entering on 1 July next year, and agriculture entering on 1 January 2015. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb1ce8ee5e548c2b854f52684fcad8f\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister put a specific proposal to the Labour Party on a bipartisan approach; if so, what was that proposal and how did it deal with agriculture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79d402cbeeb4eabb3920314e43b1b41\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Last Tuesday at my eighth meeting with members of the Labour Party I offered a compromised deal on agriculture, noting that Labour preferred 2013 and we preferred 2015, that we cut the difference at 2014. I also offered, following agreement, a joint leaders\u2019 press conference this Tuesday following caucuses. I stress that because I needed legislation during this parliamentary session, I needed a response last week to be able to take proposals to Cabinet on Monday. I further stated that I would clear my diary any day and any hour to try to advance an agreement; I received no response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e57ab34879854427bc9850563c3fb06f\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What communications did the Minister have with the Labour Party following the meeting last Tuesday where he proposed a specific compromise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dece488d640429181f4f958248c4de5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I said to Labour members that I would clear any hour and any time that week to try to reach an agreement. I was a little taken aback the next day when Mr Chauvel gave a speech in New Plymouth revealing the contents of the draft memorandum of understanding and outlining Labour\u2019s bottom lines. I did not consider that to be negotiating in good faith, although it was not atypical. Staff in my office had bets on how long after each meeting Labour would leak the issue to the media; the best result was 8 minutes after the meeting had ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e620f5014fb43958cefd515804005cd\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to make a personal explanation arising out of the matters that have just been advised to the House by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270eec81814534db9b7fc3b10dec408ee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal explanation. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ce0c7644d514d84957700a469cd9692\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I want to deal with two matters quite emphatically here and now in the House. First, the Minister said that on Tuesday at a meeting in his office he advised the Labour negotiating team\u2014consisting of me, Moana Mackey, and David Parker\u2014that responses to the matters raised were required by Friday. I have spoken extensively to Ms Mackey and Mr Parker, as well as having consulted my own recollection of the meeting, and I can assure the House that no such statement was made by Dr Nick Smith. The second matter I want\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f6a91a28aa43eabe370f01653b50c0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I alert the member that making an allegation about what another member may have said is not the subject of a personal explanation. I urge the member to be careful, because the House has accorded him a special privilege. In continuing, please be mindful of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8f54f3af6840bc9b9829c603f71a5d\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: The second matter I wish to draw the House\u2019s attention to is the Minister\u2019s claim that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc2c8d2f93b46acbc8ecb7f653edc0a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please word the explanation in a manner that makes it very clear that it is a personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d17bb30db84cd4a7ef8cef3fa59e19\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I understand. I gave a speech in New Plymouth last week, as the Minister said. In that speech I simply elaborated on the contents of the minority report of the Labour Party to the Emissions Trading Scheme Review Committee. Nothing in that speech betrayed any confidences. It is important for me to place that on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204eaf07751fc49bab3314a63840db870\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the draft memorandum of understanding that Labour was in discussion on and to table the speech that was given by Charles Chauvel, so that the House may note the words in common in both those documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714466bbdb4243e89f1ac69ad250b9e5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those two documents. We had better deal with the first one, which is the memorandum of understanding. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a15bbfa37d749e3b975885a73f0ff58\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to the second document, which is the speech, being tabled? Is there any objection to that course of action? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6dd660dcf484e21ac2db75bee1e897a\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to relitigate Mr Chauvel\u2019s personal explanation, but I want to note this point. I think it is important, for the purposes of orderly conduct in the House, that members be very clear that it is a very special privilege to seek leave to make a personal explanation. Leave is granted usually without controversy, particularly so that members can clear their names against any allegations that have been made against them personally. That is why it is called a personal explanation. It is not a mechanism by which one can introduce debatable points or contest what a particular Minister may have said about a particular issue. If it was, the mechanism of seeking leave to make a personal explanation would become a matter of pointless debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de84eaa44a9d4bb886d1c09b5143d900\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a very good point, and I ask all members to be mindful of that point. The point has been well made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e8daac53f5b4d05a7fcf40d713e3496\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the contents of Labour\u2019s minority report to the Emissions Trading Scheme Review Committee, in order that members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc67705f55944e3bbdfcdc6a59d1b78\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the Labour minority report to the select committee. Is there any objection to that? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17444e4428d46549ed90978a9b9acbc\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Treaty of Waitangi clause\u2014to be included in the climate change response bill and the emissions trading scheme itself\u2014refer to the principles of the Treaty or to the Treaty as a partnership; if not, what will the clause refer to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee26def01f704be3b43ed62c78b90ea2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That has been a particularly important point for the M\u0101ori Party, which wants to ensure that M\u0101ori are not disadvantaged or carry a disproportionate share of the changes that are required by climate change policy and the emissions trading scheme. We will work with the M\u0101ori Party, Crown Law, and officials on the drafting of the amendment. The intent is to require ongoing consultation with M\u0101ori about climate change policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9111d683f141d7b65815c55e8b1df1\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have an estimate of the fiscal cost of renegotiating specific Treaty settlements where iwi have \u201Cunknowingly been disadvantaged\u201D by deforestation provisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea4623c144a44e994b8f96699ed9ca1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This issue does not relate to the major settlements like the central North Island, where the emissions trading scheme was well known; it relates to issues in respect of some of the early settlements, where there is a concern from iwi that the Crown knew that an emissions trading scheme would disadvantage their assets but did not inform iwi during those negotiations. I have had significant discussion on this issue, particularly with Ng\u0101i Tahu, on an ongoing basis. I have made a commitment with the M\u0101ori Party to include its members in ongoing discussions to resolve those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f5daf8a1594dfdb50f12b2db547061\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question specifically asked whether the Minister had an estimate of the cost of renegotiating. It had nothing to do with the process, whom was affected, what was going to be done next, or what discussions he was going to have. I asked whether he had an estimate of the cost of renegotiating those settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a07f6654729245508664988eb9f805ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the member\u2019s point. It may be that the Minister does not have that information, since it is a supplementary question. If the question had been on notice I would have absolutely insisted on an answer. If the Minister has that information or any estimate of it, it would be helpful to the House. The Minister is indicating that he simply does not have that information. Given that it is a supplementary question, we cannot force the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa2f44967d154dacb5f63b2719283ded\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister seriously telling the House and the country that on an issue of the Treaty of Waitangi, which was a treaty of two partners, and the issue of climate change, which affects all New Zealanders and all businesses in New Zealand, M\u0101ori forestry owners or M\u0101ori owners of any other business will be treated unequally in terms of their advantage over any other owner of forest or business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239ba9f0984924ed89f59b1779ac6e80f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Neither has the M\u0101ori Party asked for any provision that would be special to M\u0101ori in respect of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288bf738f63ec47a8bb95cb62d0a47090\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Secret deal!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a7ec9c0ab24cc9b6019868992a041f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The truth is that M\u0101ori have a particularly large share of New Zealand\u2019s fishing and forest industries, so the M\u0101ori Party has shown a particular interest in policy in that regard. The specific changes that the Government has made to the emissions trading scheme will treat M\u0101ori forestry owners, M\u0101ori quota holders, and M\u0101ori players in agriculture no different from any other New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223094c422589e44baaf5028ec3ed87971\u0022\u003EBenefits\u2014Beneficiary Numbers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dfe88dfd48b47929224fcfdfecef2c3\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has she received on the latest increase in benefit numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022014241a53f1445aba81ef86f23ad022b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022014241a53f1445aba81ef86f23ad022b\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The latest monthly figures show that 59,151 people are currently receiving support through the unemployment benefit. I can report that the last time we were at this number was in February 2005, which was not in the middle of a global recession but was, in fact, in the middle of the term of a fairly poorly performing Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227233b92ba5844d8b9a95c83e16c74632\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: As 323,160 people are now collecting a main benefit\u2014an increase of 21 percent since she became Minister\u2014why has her answer to the misery that many people are facing been a poorly targeted subsidy for employers for 6 months, which may help 4,000 people over 2 years; and how does that compare with the Australian Labor Government\u2019s employment package, which saw Australia\u2019s unemployment remain static this month while ours went up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cfca5670efb4da0988887993cd5e43f\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that New Zealand was in recession well before other countries were, and that we had a Labour Government that did nothing for three quarters while unemployment numbers went up, so on coming into Government last November we had a lot of catching up to do, a lot of work to do, and that is what the Government has been focused on. A thousand Job Ops positions have been created in the last 6 weeks. The scheme is proving to be successful, and employers and young people are benefiting from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218462e1f8f264ed1bf134cef32f5b99b\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by her claim that she has done \u201Cheaps\u201D for unemployed people with programmes like ReStart and the 9-day working fortnight\u2014flagship policies of the Job Summit? Given that a mere 4,493 people have accessed ReStart in almost a year, not the 35,000 people a year promised, and given that only 38 companies have actually made inquiries about the 9-day working fortnight, will she now acknowledge that she has done very little for struggling families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11e85b7576b44909ec79d4ba7720564\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Let us be quite clear that with ReStart there was not a target. What actually happened was officials made an estimation of how much money they thought the Government needed to put aside for the scheme, and what we did was work out a worst-case scenario. I am sorry if the member is disappointed that that number of people have not been made redundant. Let me add that because of our unrelenting focus on jobs and work, in terms of Work and Income 44,000 fewer people have needed benefits in the last year than otherwise would have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1656de795ec4b9bbbbb4e1b28e0b245\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister seen on the impact of the current global economic climate on jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb846d95d804cdeb7a64a687a4d54a8\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand is still holding up fairly well internationally. Our household labour force survey unemployment rate places us ninth out of the 30 OECD countries. Yes, unemployment is going up. The Labour Opposition is just waking up to the fact that in a recession, unfortunately, people have to go on to benefits. This month 7,594 more people qualified for an accommodation supplement. A total of 53,000 more people are receiving it now than were receiving it before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e516e70080104909b3d0a780379a8661\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that an additional 9,000 people went on to the domestic purposes benefit in the last year, which would equate to an annual additional cost of up to $200 million per year; and is it not false economy and punitive to cut $11 million from the training incentive allowance, which could have helped half that number of beneficiaries to get back to work through training\u2014people who actually want to get off the benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228012dfa30cb44b87a37640b6d4ccefa0\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The member obviously does not recall that people who were receiving the training incentive allowance before the Budget still can receive it, so those people have not had their training incentive allowance cut; they are still on the training incentive allowance, and will be on it right through until they finish their study. Yes, 9,000 more people are on the domestic purposes benefit, most of them because, unfortunately, they have lost their jobs. I understand from what I heard in the weekend that members on that side of the House would like to have a social inclusion commissioner. I am not sure what they expect that social inclusion commissioner to actually do to help reduce unemployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217074f89a4844c0b7090d5ba9cf542c\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence in Work and Income, given its latest botch-up over the advertising of the Telecom technician position in Auckland, with Work and Income telling hundreds of Telecom technicians doing the same job as that advertised who are being made redundant that the only jobs on offer are minimum wage jobs; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9911ad565f84d608704a77a2242feeb\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, jobs from Telecom have been going on Work and Income\u2019s books, and we have been placing people in some of them. I believe that the job that the member is referring to is an owner-operator role. I do not believe that anyone has been placed in that role right now, but we will take job vacancies and we will place unemployed people in them every chance we get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45a0206246346f89a466ce7a597ba6d\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two advertisements from the Work and Income Find a Job website, the first advertising a Telecom technician job as a full-time wage job, and the second advertising the same job as an owner-operator position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ffc4aee0d14d5c9a696ecc8cb807ac\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not clear what the member is seeking to table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022700713cf29ef4a8d97671dc7ad0db9ec\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Two advertisements from the Work and Income Find a Job website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2881bc0a18c4de29dfb048d954039c4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table two advertisements from the Work and Income website. Is there any objection to that? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273f0ca75627e43aba170413477e6551d\u0022\u003EAuckland, Local Government Reform\u2014Precedent for Decision-making\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0af0593e6a14920bae401f3c1bd896e\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: What precedent does the Prime Minister\u2019s decision to listen to the people in respect of the Rodney boundary set for other decisions on the Auckland super-city?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022568cb2b016d84eeabb834978017283e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022568cb2b016d84eeabb834978017283e0\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday the Government announced that it would stick to the boundary decision it first made on 6 April\u2014that is, that all of the Rodney District will be part of the new Auckland Council. This is not about setting any precedents; it is about getting the very best governance structure for Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220803a4b0c48a4ffda6df9b5b3af0f9ec\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Has the Minister received any advice that the Prime Minister might be willing to adopt the same principle of listening to the people in respect of the M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland super-city, particularly given the overwhelming support for them from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, all of the mana whenua groups in Auckland, the two major iwi groups in Auckland, 100 percent of the M\u0101ori submissions to the Auckland select committee, 80 percent of the non-M\u0101ori submissions to the Auckland select committee, the majority of Auckland\u2019s councils, most of Auckland\u2019s mayors, three of the five major parties in Parliament, and every intelligent political commentator in the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b008f6389b476da83c69dc6c9c24e5\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I would note that we have a Prime Minister who listens to the nth degree to the people of New Zealand. I have to say that in his decision making he is remarkably in touch with the people of New Zealand, and I think that is reflected in the polls. There are two different issues, though. One is where the northern boundary of the Auckland region should lie. The other is whether the Government should overturn the principle of one person, one vote, and every position of political power being open to every citizen in a free and open contest. The Government has opted for the principle of one law for all. I observe that this does not preclude M\u0101ori from campaigning for and winning a position on the Auckland Council or local boards. In fact, five M\u0101ori are now serving in local government in the Auckland region, two of whom are deputy mayors. I also note that if the people of Auckland choose to have reserved M\u0101ori seats, they can do so under the Local Electoral Act, and indeed the council itself can choose this. Indeed, mayoral candidate Len Brown has made providing separate M\u0101ori seats a key policy plank of his campaign to be the first mayor of a united Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679ef651d5c146e6bbb2e58e2051aaae\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Has the Minister heard any reports about why the Prime Minister was so quick to listen to the people of Rodney District in respect of their boundary issues, but so very, very reluctant to listen to the overwhelming opinion in support of M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland super-city council, and has instead chosen to throw his lot in with a party that struggled to make the margin of error? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6c4b3d1c1854e799e86567a19f9c21c\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that the Prime Minister has bent over backwards to listen to all the issues and, in particular, to M\u0101ori concerns and M\u0101ori groups in Auckland. I particularly recall the Prime Minister travelling to the Hon Pita Sharples\u2019 electorate office for a very good, open, and frank discussion. In the event, the Government has had to make a decision. I repeat that this is not about precluding M\u0101ori from the seats of the council. In fact, it is about opening up Auckland to a proper, free political contest for the governance of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4e386328f2a475ba1849a665570965f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How is it mana-enhancing for Rodney District residents to get what they want but for M\u0101ori electors in the city of Auckland to be told to take a hike? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb9ca0da570d4e0cad6eb4f1e112055c\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I would say the Hon Shane Jones is used to playing politics in a way\u2014[Interruption] Let me answer the question. He is used to playing politics in such a way that there is a winner and a loser. I say this Government is always about getting the best result, for Auckland in this case, and, indeed, for New Zealand. It has not been easy. I make the point that Len Brown, who I understand is Labour\u2019s candidate for the Auckland mayoralty, has made it his plank to have M\u0101ori seats in Auckland. It will be up to the people of Auckland to decide on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33d8a3660d342e29baffb1a787d07f6\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to National\u2019s Hunua MP, Dr Paul Hutchison, who is reported to have described the proposed Franklin boundaries as the \u201Cworst possible scenario\u201D, and why did the Minister not follow Dr Hutchison\u2019s advice and amend the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill to reflect the royal commission\u2019s recommendation on the Auckland boundaries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7caf32872e245ee8eb042fc7f9604d5\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Dr Paul Hutchison to keep on being an excellent MP and to keep defeating Labour, which cannot have a bolt-hole of ever winning that seat against such a good member, who, I must say, pushed hard for his constituents. This was a very tough one, where the Government had to weigh up the interests of getting the boundary right for catchment purposes versus territorial authority purposes. On balance, and after discussions with the Waikato Regional Council, the Mayor of Waikato District, Peter Harris, the Auckland Regional Council, and, indeed, the Mayor of Franklin District, the Government considered it would be much easier to establish shared services for territorial authority purposes rather than catchment purposes. I commend Paul Hutchison for the assiduous way in which he looks after his constituents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfbb65b7290b40cca440d2d9e7afe2cd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5f954e54534d57851637cc858f31c9\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Shane Jones and Phil Twyford\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223395238adf9c42598627170ec9451292\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When I am on my feet, I say to the Hon Rodney Hide, he will resume his seat. His answers were far too long, and I tolerated them for far too long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f0c8aca07ae48a79552f727d08586df\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I did not realise that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213a78bdb2ed24e5896fc983cad1cc7da\u0022\u003EAdult Learners\u2019 Week\u2014Minister\u2019s Attendance at Events\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d5de1a77fb49c19673c8c006f22eb8\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: What events, if any, did she attend to celebrate Adult Learners\u2019 Week last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7edf5133579482ea25160a34aef511c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7edf5133579482ea25160a34aef511c\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E I received three invitations to attend events but unfortunately, because of other commitments, I was unable to attend them. Messages of support were sent to those groups that requested them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226096d80cddb4494aa0d722ee810a8ef9\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that there will be no night classes offered through high schools or the community group courses that they support in the whole of the Hutt Valley in 2010 as a result of the cuts to adult and community education; if she is, does she think that situation needs correcting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287603af34c4f4557af9553d56f320404\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member that no decisions have yet been made about the provision of adult and community education next year; in fact, expressions of interest have only just been received. However, this Government has indicated that it is committed to adult and community education, and that is why we are investing $124 million in it over the next 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022483e8a3bb648439ebab38569789d37e4\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: What funding does the Government provide for adult learners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4bfbd7e7364e3b913745e65b0c98e1\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There is significant funding for adult learners. As I said, first of all, the Government is providing $124 million over the next 4 years for adult and community education. Second, in Budget 2009 the Government put an additional $11 million of funding into the Workplace Literacy Fund. That means that in the 2009-10 financial year this Government will fund 4,500 Workplace Literacy Fund places, 5,600 intensive literacy and numeracy places, 2,000 employee-targeted one-on-one places, 6,800 literacy and numeracy places embedded in mainstream Institutes of Technology and Polytechnics of New Zealand provisions, and 7,000 literacy places in industry training. I think that is a fantastic commitment to adult education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e5aa3ebd2c4b39997bba768dc60c18\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister intending to revisit the decision to cut adult and community education to high schools or will she just \u201Cfeel guilty\u201D about it, as her colleague Nick Smith said when he was confronted by protesters on Saturday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249231536660d4db0adc03b4aeca58945\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No. This Government has decided that it needs to focus money in the tertiary education budget on education outcomes for young New Zealanders, who are likely to be disproportionately affected by the economic downturn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc079f88e4a44ee9a076b835bdcefe0\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister intend to meet with any of the 700 protesters in Auckland on Saturday to discuss alternative solutions to the adult and community education funding cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e4dc186e344125a40d5296c4977a98\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No. I am continuing to talk to principals and representatives in the sector around the country, as I have done over the last few months. The purpose of many of those meetings has been to ask me to change my mind, but there is no change of mind; these changes and the refocusing of adult and community education will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263cbf09c2ccd49c3a1e2575f9c16b759\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table three documents. The first is speech notes for a speech to the Upper Hutt meeting I attended last week on 10 September as part of Adult Learners\u2019 Week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ac166ffb30a479ea40ea3795dacf242\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speech notes from whom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad46ee02014f46cc98514e1d3452a09b\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Me. They were my speech notes. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215308aefa1f841e6974f26b63aee395e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order\u2014we may not have heard such leave sought before. Leave is sought to table a document containing speech notes of a speech that the member gave to a meeting somewhere. Is there any objection to that? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd62cde1f8c74894849949b3d1c6dfd8\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a speech I made to an Auckland meeting of adult learners on 12 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cac9c7c97fb4dcbbb11aa5e090af7e8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268f843817d4c459ead0665194085d43a\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter of support I sent on 10 September to the Taranaki meeting celebrating Adult Learners\u2019 Week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220148a7f17bde44438dede4ee3d92d6fe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022657fcb3d238c4b55b0b00f11a210aafa\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the minutes of the \u201CStop Night Class Cuts\u201D meeting attended by more than 150 people at Glenfield College in the North Shore on Monday, 20 July, at which I was the guest speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb588d0b2e24f5a8945c37b5cdc87f6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the minutes from a meeting at Glenfield College. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221251f138921140bbacbff06ca4d9eb7e\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table speech notes for a speech given at a community meeting in Upper Hutt last Thursday evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5d8efc4e954d9b8afa685488d6232b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Who by?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de67e4c2ef54bed9c9b4b41c54c24fe\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: By me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac934e758c954fc596edc5f77188968e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I sincerely hope that members do not develop a sudden desire to table all their speech notes, or the House, which has already taken too long on question time today, will be endlessly delayed. Leave is sought by the honourable member to table his speech notes. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efabdbcc2cc4509add9080e27c60ef7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223383964c3ffa4819aa90c2b76b1b1f2d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard clear objection from Dr Ashraf Choudhary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022768d1d9e2c1f419a859d4490dd6378ef\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add8def5e2154e9cb319db88d521d05b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let us have some order in the House, colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff103f83528141a2b87aba1064bef6b0\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My request of you is one of consistency. Earlier today Nick Smith sought leave\u2014quite professionally\u2014to table the speech notes of my Opposition colleague Charles Chauvel. You treated the request with respect, you did not roll your eyes, and you did not make any facial gestures. The issue was put and it was dealt with. When my colleague Maryan Street and other colleagues asked for the similar privilege of tabling speech notes\u2014yes, their own\u2014you exhibited rather animated expressions that I think were a bit off. I ask you for consistency. It is members\u2019 right under Standing Orders, and there has been no ruling against this. Any member can seek leave to table anything. If you do not like it then that is a matter for you, but the Standing Orders are clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab6d61e21204492b95374c49569df21\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me make it very clear to the honourable member that the Speaker does rule on matters. If members do not like it, then the ultimate solution is in members\u2019 hands. While I am Speaker, I will rule on matters. I make it very clear to the House that I do not think it would be a very smart idea for members to start seeking leave to table their speeches. The reason why the particular exchange between the Hon Dr Nick Smith and Charles Chauvel was relevant is that leave had been sought and granted for a member to make a personal explanation. There was some concern about the content of the first half of that personal explanation, so leave was sought to table documents to sort out an issue where there appeared to be disagreement between members. I saw that as being a rather different situation from one where members seek leave to table their speech notes. Members give speeches endlessly up and down this country, and I think tabling them would be a practice that would be unhelpful. Certainly, I accept that from time to time there may be good reason for it, but it is not a path I think this House should go down. If the member does not like my approach to the matter then I apologise to him, but I do not intend to allow this House to waste endless time with leave being sought for members to table the notes of their speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022369c1a01362b4257862cef0fb0245518\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Because I have a particular interest in the speech that Mr Quinn has offered to table, there has been consultation and if he asks again there will not be objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca046b382754a19bcdf69191535a1e2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have already ruled on that matter and that is the end of it. [Interruption] The House must come to order. A fair bit of steam has been let off today. We have these days where there is a fair bit of excitement back and forth, and that is fine, but we need to come to order and get on with question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6b940d0a87428ab6de78b50c8c0710\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the speech I gave at the adult learners\u2019 awards at Aranui High School in Christchurch on 10 September 2009. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed467b8a306d47d1ad4b1de00c5bc604\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204dde3e091b452782415b230a56b2ad\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a message given for me to the adult learners\u2019 awards, attended by several hundred people in Waitakere, on Friday, 11 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c3921f0140942a2a096bbea40d11a35\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8a597eb8f747228752c070d29dd26b\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter of congratulations to adult learners in Waitakere, urging them to continue their opposition to the National Government\u2019s adult and community education cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea0a3df1a3643d880ba0fe96faec555\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House does not know where the letter came from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2cd9584cbe14613a814093b4c26574f\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: It came from me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227286b5a8ed62442c8bdcdb2e5bcce7b7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a277ce8b3c44b29a2a842dfb3022b2\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a message from me to the Wellington Adult Learners\u2019 Week event, held in Newlands on Saturday, and the response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b123d4ebc0f45cdb2355f651002f6ea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aeb66ae31bc4a0b9f086abd84ff5a0f\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document, dated 7 September, entitled \u201CSpeaking notes\u201D from my speech to the Adult Learners\u2019 Week celebration in Hamilton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219407af2080f45c98489179e0d5b28a6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those speech notes. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa950c23d5df4dad8fbc9ef789dc830a\u0022\u003EJob Ops Scheme\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281cd8bdc5bf046d08492c8f8286fab8a\u0022\u003EHEKIA PARATA (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has she received about the Government\u2019s Job Ops scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022d867045468604aac923977e1be430994\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d867045468604aac923977e1be430994\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to announce that we have achieved well over 1,000 Jobs Ops: 1,158 to date. These job opportunities are making a real difference to the lives of many of our young people. Of these newly created job opportunities, we have already filled 497 with young people who would otherwise be out of work and on the unemployment benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fceafec1fc0e432d81ce1c28e7009b47\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: How is the scheme assisting young people to come off the unemployment benefit and into employment opportunities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022382a79aafdb547f9ab8dbd4b64016c74\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Job Ops is doing what it was set up to do: it is enabling employers to give these young people a go. Here is an example of what we are getting pretty much daily these days: a 19-year-old from Upper Hutt who, without any previous hospitality experience, is now working as a front of house assistant for an executive catering firm. As a result of getting in touch with Work and Income, the employer now has a young person to work for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c158032402c4c819e9d8c1091a855fc\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister talk to mayors or councils about the detail of her Youth Opportunities policy before she announced it, given that a quarter of the package relies on them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b690d65eeba449c8c7fa3120382f996\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I am to apply the Standing Orders I must tell the member that she cannot make an allegation when she asks her question, as she was doing then\u2014she was proceeding to make a certain allegation in her question. She may ask a supplementary question without the allegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be626e835cb74acb8ee5d56c359a6f7e\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Which allegation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da59cfd2135e445aabc9e8ef74e09200\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The allegation inserted information that may be challengeable. She may ask her supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265883db907734849b5672c47a09cc54b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Ever since I have been a member of Parliament, members have, by way of supplementary questions, added information that, if it was in a primary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f853ced6f994173a70f22fe7b526d4e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c4ffabf4872449ca59de1c81d7bf0b9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014would have had to be authenticated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a355be97e8bd4ab2bd2fc776050bc3fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. If members wish to trifle with the time of the House in the way that they have today, then I can apply the Standing Orders. The member needs only to read the Standing Orders to see that supplementary questions must not contain injected information\u2014or assertions of information\u2014that is debatable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9497ab75cec44b0ae0fcc7f589f48b4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671be9fc08e54b16b532855b5d381785\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on the matter. I warn the Hon Trevor Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cabe46492be84962928886d31eec0b04\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I just want an assurance that you will apply this ruling in the same way to the Government. Today you objected to my interjecting on Hekia Parata, but when Chris Finlayson did the same thing to Annette King you just let it go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d817cb9962d9490084ff4e1cb34305a5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I choose to ignore the member. Jacinda Ardern may ask her supplementary question if she wishes. We will go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c788ddb18eb340589f0e7163296974c5\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Did she consult mayors or councils on the detail of her Youth Opportunities policy before she announced it, based on the fact that a large proportion of that package that relies on them for its implementation; if not, is this one of the reasons why the take-up for the Community Max scheme sits at less than 3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227261c517864045b0aa85c0f1cde9bb4b\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I spoke with the mayors task force before announcing the policy. We have had a tremendous response from mayors throughout New Zealand. They are very keen to get on board. They have been liaising with their employers. They have been designing Community Max programmes themselves. We are 6 weeks in, so we are seeing those Community Max programmes coming through and being highly successful. They are very exciting and they are moving ahead at great rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfe5ff85042e42d5883bd1d37aab6a41\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a press release from a well-known right-wing social commentator, Lindsay Mitchell, who said this programme is distorting the value of labour with subsidies that are probably not the answer and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9bb8ce2ac54f4c90b2f38bc14edd27\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the member reads what is in the article, can we establish which publication it is from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e41bfe69f5f04607b2ce27a640501350\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: It is a press release\u2014I told you that. Mr Speaker, I told you it is a press release from a well-known right-wing social commentator, Lindsay Mitchell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221738e4673c5440d5be52fa9cd42e7e97\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. Leave is sought to table that press release. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d09aa948def241128cd0f4f70b8795f7\u0022\u003EObesity Rates\u2014Reduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305727e01ee24a99b9398570c57ef9a7\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does New Zealand have any targets for how much it aims to reduce obesity rates in the next 5 to 10 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220cd3659ee21a4f8a877fa0d98e8fe08d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cd3659ee21a4f8a877fa0d98e8fe08d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E No, but the health sector aims to reduce the growth of unhealthy weight through efforts that target a balance between increased physical activity and better nutrition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e068aea982942dabef6cb06bbff8ac5\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: When poor diet is the leading cause of ill health in New Zealand, when obesity rates are skyrocketing, and when our children are amongst the fattest in the world, why did the Government scrap the school food guidelines, which aimed to reduce obesity rates by encouraging children to eat healthy food in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182866511a9646c19fd7afa5f577638e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I need to be clear with the member that the Government believes that school boards of trustees, not some heavy-handed central bureaucracy, should decide what they sell in their school tuck shops. The Government will not be reinstating tuck shop controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5993459c55e4a0aab13b9cb8abec00a\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that now that the Government has scrapped the school food guidelines, schools are free to sell as much junk food as they like\u2014things like soft drinks, chips, sausage rolls, and doughnuts, all of which may be bought, I might say, at a school canteen 5 minutes away from here? Does he think it makes sense from a public health perspective for schools to sell unhealthy food in their canteens every single day when we know it contributes to obesity, type 2 diabetes, and dental decay; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e91da2fadc9445285b685c821dffb77\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is quite clear that it trusts boards of trustees and parents to make decisions about what they sell in their school tuck shops. I tell the member that a quite considerable number of reports indicate that schools are maintaining and improving healthy options in their school canteens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296fb06b8e9cd473db6dcfc85f3c93b1a\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What contribution is the health sector making towards increasing the level of physical activity of our young people, given the reports that our children are much less physically active than children were 20 years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234b3885bfe04493b80ee2cafe9e7564a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The health sector has contributed about one-third of the $20 million a year that is going into the new Kiwisport initiative, which aims to encourage more and more children to take up more and more physical activity. It is correct that children are increasingly less physically active than children were 15 or 20 years ago. The Kiwisport initiative is part of this Government\u2019s balanced approach to dealing with unhealthy weight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3203ebd54840638cf4c78b2d9edf4a\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two things. One is a Green Party school food survey that found that out of 50 schools, the majority are selling chippies, fizzy drinks, sausage rolls\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff2d3d75aa34c74a88bbe247d2238ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d01b22830c74a23953780ac5095dd05\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, I seek leave to table these three items of food, which were purchased in a school canteen yesterday, 5 minutes from Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223571287f1f7d44bfbd8ecfabeca30f19\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member seriously asking the House to grant leave to table some food items?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a963aada85fd40b1a58a7bfc0f20dba7\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, absolutely seriously, because this gives evidence that the Minister was quite wrong when he said that this is not the staple food in the school canteens. We bought this food 5 minutes away from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8191e13cbb74eca8bd1999a02a20732\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I gather\u2014[Interruption] Members are being particularly unruly today. I gather leave has previously been sought to table food items. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f637c9b41d74bfd90308712f9990d84\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Analysis of Economic and Environmental Effects\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378fdf4498b34478b84416cc8bef1a4b\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: Is there detailed Treasury and Ministry for the Environment analysis of the effects on the New Zealand economy and the environment of the changes to the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002216ffa51a61ab4e7e8af25fe057b13160\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216ffa51a61ab4e7e8af25fe057b13160\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Analysis has been done by Treasury and by the Ministry for the Environment on a wide range of options to changes to the emissions trading scheme, and advice was also sought from Infometrics and New Zealand Institute of Economic Research. I will quote their recommendation: \u201CIt is to introduce an ETS with free allocation to competitiveness-at-risk sectors, with agriculture excluded \u2026 allocation should be output-linked and phased out as our competitors adopt carbon pricing.\u201D That is exactly what the Government\u2019s modified emissions trading scheme does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9ad95131a84d53823e9688dcb340c0\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister now promoting an emissions trading scheme that renders a price signal substantially ineffective as far as emitting greenhouse gases in the agriculture sector is concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b5104908c84211b3a81ae9f22499b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not consider it to be ineffective, because when agriculture comes into the sector in 2015\u2014and we will be the very first country in the world to come into an emissions trading scheme in 2015\u2014there will be a very real incentive for those involved in the agricultural sector to adopt technologies that will reduce emissions. I think that everybody in the House realises that currently those technologies are quite limited. That is why the work being done by this Government, through the Minister of Agriculture, David Carter, around pursuing technologies in that area, is so important for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4d7a36848a41a3a8ba55d4ad8202bb\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister now promoting an emissions trading scheme that he says will lead to a boom in forest plantings, when the absence of any effective price signal to the agriculture sector means that there will be no incentives for the conversion of marginal land to forestry, and every incentive to continue to convert to New Zealand\u2019s biggest polluting activity\u2014dairying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e50bd679e748f584801256af60705c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The last party that I will take a lecture on about forestry is the party opposite, because the worst deforestation that has occurred\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1d7b2dab119447881f2746a5e8ad11f\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a very simple question of the Minister. He got up and started to claim that he had been given a lecture. He was not given a lecture. He was asked a question, and I require him to answer it. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e98a1be4fc784d8db8a498d2d3dd03f7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Even the Leader of the Opposition will not interject when I am on my feet. The difficulty the member has got himself in is that he built an assertion into his question, and that is what the Minister is responding to. The member asked a question, and then made an argument about what that would lead on to. The Minister took that to be a lecture, and is responding to it as such. That is perfectly proper. If the member wants a straight answer, the questions must be direct. The Standing Orders make it very clear that questions are not meant to have statements made in them, because the statements are often contestable. The Minister responded to the contestable statement contained in the question. I cannot ask the Minister to ignore part of the member\u2019s question. So it is just a classic example of the need to remember that if members want answers to questions they should not make contestable statements as part of a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229396c32f31fd4e4ebc9bbc7bcad50047\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: One of the most important issues that we need to advance around climate change is for there to be a financial incentive for the planting of trees. That has not been possible, because although foresters are eligible for credits there is nowhere effectively for them to sell them. That is why getting an emissions trading scheme started on 1 July next year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d321cc783912414aafb865f4bff6b6fb\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Whose fault is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1bd2e34873945cdb9dc0b9e96b3b57f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, it was Helen Clark who delayed the entry of the liquid fuel sector by 2 years. Right now, there would be a market if she had not made that decision. With the decisions that have been made by National, with the support of the M\u0101ori Party, there will be a market for 50 million units of carbon, and that will provide an income stream. That is why the Forest Owners Association has welcomed the Government\u2019s announcements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226586a7e0a34d7ba5d9f313a411a4a2\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received on the accuracy of claims by the Hon Phil Goff that taxpayers will be lumped with a $1.6 billion share of polluter costs as a consequence of the amendments to the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436200e7f42d4db5b04bb75882b502f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My advice is that these claims are both false and misleading. The costs of National\u2019s changes are $400 million over 4 years relative to the existing scheme. Nearly all of this is to reduce the costs of electricity and fuel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7c8f821691459981ebabe375bcb791\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister knows that that won\u2019t be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d9ec994183e4548b78e6eee554dbae2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: What I find so funny about Phil Goff is that he gives a lecture on a Sunday about how power prices are too high, and then on the Monday opposes measures from National that would halve the cost for electricity consumers of Labour\u2019s emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223efc6574adc34d54b3cdd68b48b521dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we have had enough of an answer. The member has made his point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3196d900dbc4ff89e508ceee7c8e436\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister now support an emissions trading scheme that shifts the obligation to pay for New Zealand\u2019s emissions away from those who pollute and on to taxpayers, with the inevitable result that emissions will be higher and the country poorer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c89bba86d5b143959196ae718affb972\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite is incorrect. I will make it very plain and very simple for him. Under the previous Labour Government\u2019s scheme the Government was set to make $23 billion from the emissions trading scheme. The National Government says that an emissions trading scheme is not intended as a cash cow but rather as a sensible instrument to try to encourage more energy-efficient behaviour, which is exactly what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c20038c4514589aca2c7e1bd4a83a7\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister make publicly available all advice provided to the Government on the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme so as to ensure that all parties wanting to make a submission on the legislation that will implement the scheme are fully informed about the additional costs and environmental impacts of the proposed changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc1a86822494713879e496dfe23fd2b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to make those documents available in good time. I have a further paper to take to Cabinet next Monday to finalise the legislation that I will be introducing to the House. That information will show that this Government has taken a very balanced approach to the environmental benefits of the scheme. I note, for instance, that Labour members object to the cost of $400 million when the specific proposals that have been put to me by Charles Chauvel around timing and a $15 price cap would have cost $243 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229dc14491add44fbbac4e4d8209ecae9a\u0022\u003EResource Management Act Reforms\u2014Consents Process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022960f00668e2b418ebef33faf24b44363\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: How will the Government\u2019s changes to the Resource Management Act address the problem of drawn-out consent processes for major infrastructure projects where they commonly have local commissioner hearings and then a de novo Environment Court appeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe957642ab90457d951ad5d781480083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe957642ab90457d951ad5d781480083\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The major change is to have a single consent hearing via the new Environmental Protection Authority, with a board of inquiry incorporating commissioners from both a local and a national perspective. There is a tight time line and limited appeal rights. This change will overcome the all-too-common occurrence of it taking years, and more, for decisions to be made on major consents. Many of those projects would have benefited the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2b45a10819e40a98e8fa0fe705b89dd\u0022\u003ENicky Wagner\u003C/span\u003E: What examples can the Minister give of unsatisfactory processing of major consenting in the recent past that would have been helped by this more straightforward process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a13c29274abb4e30b9ece74a5debe700\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There are so many examples that they would take up the rest of the House\u2019s time today, but I will give a few. Project West Wind took over 3 years to get consented. I note that the Northern Gateway Toll Road north of Auckland took 10 years. The Whangamata marina took over 10 years, albeit we scrapped the power for the Minister to be able to interfere in the process. Another example is the Wellington Inner City Bypass, which took 15 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d066efe391c8435284329a24157ee8ae\u0022\u003EMinisterial Accommodation\u2014Homes Leased from Family Trusts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210cb946d8728464e9f6dbc68cc8b5a7a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services: What conditions must be met before it is permissible to lease a home from a family trust for use as a ministerial residence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002251e8765f52ea40d7bf06180b4914706a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251e8765f52ea40d7bf06180b4914706a\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY (Minister responsible for Ministerial Services):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member to the answer given on my behalf last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9d4f84cb5294b58b12173159938ce45\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: As Gerry Brownlee, on behalf of the Minister, advised the House last Thursday that it \u201Cwould depend entirely on the structure of the trust\u201D whether a Minister who had no pecuniary interest in a trust, but who might otherwise control the trust, was entitled to Ministerial Services funding for a residence owned by the trust, what is the structure of the trust in the case of the Hon Bill English?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad5f3bd166d485ab38f6c77cd49e2f0\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the structure of the trust, but I am aware that Bill English has no pecuniary interest in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227527a03cb5894ddf9fb57480a1e916af\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Hon Bill English have the right under the trust deed to appoint the trustees that control the trust, to control the date of distribution of trust assets, or to control which discretionary beneficiaries receive those assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720725a411a2424883a5feeb136e9027\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the answer to that question, but I am aware that the test is that there be no pecuniary interest. The Hon Bill English has no pecuniary interest in the trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f402fe9897a04232a97947834b07f73f\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Auditor-General investigated two specific cases concerning ministerial housing in 2001, and as a consequence provided a general report and recommendations to Parliament on the rules and entitlements surrounding such housing; if so, will he now ask the Auditor-General to review how those recommendations have been implemented and to investigate this current case to ensure that an independent view is available to the House as to whether taxpayer funds are being appropriately spent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264bd73f906d34334adab8df330d20935\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c05c323c7534844b42bf68e2a9d9a94\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s assurance that the Minister of Finance has no pecuniary interest in his trust, but noting also that the House was advised that the issue of control depended entirely on the structure of the trust as opposed to whether there is pecuniary interest, will the Minister ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether the structure of the trust passes the test that was set in the House on Thursday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc62cd7b48b46d9b7410ce85fe4bc16\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: As is so often the case with that member, he makes assertions that are not necessarily correct. But I can assure the member that the test is quite clear: does the Minister have a pecuniary interest? In this case the member does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266ff545cb589495199604710aeab9790\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he know whether his Deputy Prime Minister altered the trust deed to obtain a green light legally regarding his pecuniary interests, even though he remains one of the two people who, effectively, control the trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc55fc747c484dbaa594d5057d357f64\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know that, but I do know that the Minister had to satisfy a test about whether he had a pecuniary interest. I am quite satisfied that he has no pecuniary interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f293c3e88272415ca0d81d9dca54dab9\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of his certainty that all is well with the Hon Bill English\u2019s residence, will he advise his colleague to release the trust deed in the interest of transparency, or must the public take the Hon Bill English at his word?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a33b4e8d0d4a768bcfcd922c67a6df\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, because it is not his deed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226217fe90dc1b4f688b820b9a51128f66\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426c2fb0d22d454dbb4b375b580b19c0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are no further supplementary questions. The full allocation has now been utilised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4c63bdaa2f482fbc8b68b9aeac4603\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: We are one down on question No. 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc51f23ece27409a939d12cd5528756f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, all supplementary questions have been utilised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022937fb47074754c41add71381fa97b4cb\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ccd7df81d59c437e90a6da400a25732c\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Proposed Changes \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00225f19a0fe66f14f28a46569a6f7309671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f19a0fe66f14f28a46569a6f7309671\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Charles Chauvel seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 the Government\u2019s proposed changes to New Zealand\u2019s emissions trading scheme. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving Ministerial responsibility. The Government has announced its intention to revise the emissions trading scheme and to announce features of a revised scheme that will require amendments to the existing legislation. This is an important announcement, but in considering whether a matter requires the urgent attention of the House, it is relevant to consider whether the matter proposed to be discussed must come before the House reasonably soon in the form of legislation. The Government has announced that it intends to introduce a bill next week and for it to be passed before the end of the year. The consideration of this legislation will provide the opportunity to debate the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme. In these circumstances, I am not persuaded that the business of the House should be set aside today. The matter is one that can be considered over a longer time frame. The application is, therefore, declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7be84b11600420f9b6175ef7c741d35\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282e87d4dcc0946a7a2f4ce1c90bc2e34\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002206fd07871cf849298bd68f807ecd2226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206fd07871cf849298bd68f807ecd2226\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the second reading and remaining stages of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, the interrupted second reading and remaining stages of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill, the interrupted Committee stage and third reading of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill, the Committee stage of the Immigration Bill, and the second reading of the Electricity (Continuance of Supply) Amendment Bill. These are a series of bills that need the House\u2019s urgent attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill has had a long gestation. It was conceived from a long 18-month royal commission and has been through an exhaustive select committee process where there has been significant public discussion, and, I have to say, a degree of agreement about how things should progress in the city of Auckland itself. That means the Government should get on with the business of making legal Auckland\u2019s intention to go forward as one community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe interrupted second reading of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill will allow a degree of certainty for the Inland Revenue Department to prepare information necessary for those who enter the scheme next year, and, more important, for those who are part of the current loan scheme, with their various repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79e9d5764954f389dd36e5bd2663df0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Get your shoes off, Gerry, so you can count!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038db9888430454084d4f8e2c51ecef0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I think there is a point of order here in that I am explaining to the Opposition what is in these bills. It generally acts with such huge outrage that the Government moves to simply put a few extra hours into what is otherwise a relatively short working week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill is of a similar quality. It is needed to create a degree of certainty in that area. Immigration is an area where there have been a number of policy announcements and the Immigration Bill will give effect to those. It was introduced by the Opposition when it was in Government. The Electricity (Continuance of Supply) Amendment Bill is very, very important. People need to know what will be happening in 2013 and the Government wants to give them that surety by way of this particular urgency motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225bd2968f6331434fa86cfa164da88e6d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000285\u0022\u003EResult corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 69, Noes 54.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3f9cf1dcbc04b5e9b1507c39e01614a\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5fb46af6a7d43da835f9343bf262fd4\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226541482c1561421c81c3ee995abf2c48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226541482c1561421c81c3ee995abf2c48\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Following discussions among parties, I seek leave for there to be a question time at 2 p.m. on Wednesday and 2 p.m. on Thursday, despite urgency having been accorded to Government business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c0d2b8b3553412795915604d09a413a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c6c688fb7bb42a883b8cfba8953e3ee\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022733bf70b46f84478a23e1a7480c78082\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002263525ba1dfce44e3b18bd19f0a2bd0d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263525ba1dfce44e3b18bd19f0a2bd0d4\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill be now read a second time. This bill continues Parliament\u2019s work of creating a new Auckland Council. It is the second of three bills that I have brought or am bringing before Parliament. Together, they will help to resolve the decades-old problems with Auckland\u2019s local governance. The first bill I introduced is now the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Act 2009. This second bill continues the process of moving the eight existing councils in the Auckland region into one Auckland Council. The third bill, which I will bring to the House later this year, will complete the legislative framework for ongoing arrangements in Auckland\u2019s future governance, and will finalise the arrangements for moving from the old to the new Greater Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe report back by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill is a further step towards Auckland becoming a world-class city supported by effective local government, with one mayor, one council, and one plan. I acknowledge the select committee for all its work on the bill, especially its chair, the Hon John Carter. Under his leadership, substantial agreement was achieved on many major points such as the role of the mayor, election from wards, and the local boards. The committee was supported by Auckland citizens, ratepayers, and organisations, who made some 2,500 submissions. As well as thanking the committee for its fine work, I thank each person who made a submission. We said we would listen, and we have. The bill is much better as a result of that. I would also like to thank the Department of Internal Affairs for its support to the committee, and, indeed, for the Government through this process. I believe the amendments proposed by the select committee will strengthen the bill and further the Government\u2019s goal of creating a prosperous, world-class city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI want to briefly outline the main amendments. They cover the roles, functions, and decision-making responsibilities of the councils and local boards; the roles and functions of the council\u2019s governing body, made up of the mayor and 20 councillors; the voting system to be used for the first elections in October 2010; the powers and functions of the Local Government Commission in establishing the number of local boards; the boundaries of the city and the region; and the integration of water and wastewater services by Watercare Services Ltd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe select committee received a number of submissions on the need to strengthen the role of local boards in the decision-making processes of the new council. The Government has produced, and is pleased to support, a set of excellent recommendations in this area. Under these recommendations, local boards will be responsible for developing a local board plan to reflect the priorities and preferences of their communities for council services and facilities. The boards will use these plans to establish agreements with the governing body. This will cover levels of service and local boards\u2019 funding requirements. The mayor and councillors will be responsible for ensuring the agreement reached with each local board in respect of local services and the facilities is implemented. The boards will control the budgets they need to function appropriately and effectively in their communities. The amendments will provide that the mayor and the councillors, and the councils\u2019 local boards, will work together and have distinct roles, rather than operate in a hierarchical relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Government supports the recommendations of the select committee on voting systems. The mayor will be elected by the electors of Auckland as a whole using the first-past-the-post voting system for the first election in 2010. All 20 councillors will be elected from single member or multi-member wards, also under first past the post, in the first election next year. No councillors will be elected at large. Aucklanders will be able to decide for themselves whether they want to switch to a single transferable vote or retain the first-past-the-post voting system in the following elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe select committee recommends that the mayor and councillors be responsible for making decisions on matters where an Auckland-wide approach will best promote the well-being of communities across Auckland and be most efficient for the administration of council business. This includes the administration and enforcement of the council\u2019s statutory responsibilities for resource management, building code requirements, and public health and civil defence arrangements across the region. The mayor and councillors will also be responsible for financial and asset management and the staff and resources of the council, and maintaining the capacity of the council to provide services and the facilities across the region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhen preparing strategies, policies, plans, or by-laws, the governing body will be required to consult with local boards and to take into account the views expressed by each local board on behalf of its community. All other decision making on services and facilities is the responsibility of local boards. The local boards will have responsibility for decisions on local issues and will be able to reflect the particular character and preferences of their communities. Local boards will be able to propose by-laws specifically for their board areas, in order to reflect the particular needs of their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Government is pleased that the committee has recommended new provisions that specify and clarify the responsibilities of the mayor, the councillors, and the local boards. I believe those recommendations will ensure the local boards will be able to represent and advocate strongly for the needs and concerns of local communities and allow those communities to have a say in decisions affecting them. They will have real local authority. The governing body of the mayor and councillors will be responsible for regionally important decisions and the local boards will make decisions for their local communities. There will be one council with two decision-making bodies working side by side, each with its own role and responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThis bill requires the Local Government Commission to determine the boundaries of Auckland, and its wards and local boards, by 1 March, 2010. The select committee has responded to the large number of submissions around the boundaries of Auckland and the concern that rural areas not be included in the urban Auckland area. The bill provides direction to the commission about the southern boundary of Auckland. The select committee recommended that similar direction be given over the northern boundary. The select committee recommended that the urban and partly urban areas of both the Rodney and Franklin districts should fall within the Auckland boundary. Because of the distance, nature, and interest of the areas of the Rodney and Franklin districts that will become part of Auckland, the committee also recommended that a single-member ward be created for each of the two areas to ensure local representation on the Auckland Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EChanges to local government boundaries, like other boundary issues, are always contentious, and every proposal is likely to have vocal opponents. Although there were good reasons for the select committee recommendation to exclude the northern areas of the Rodney district, it is clear that there is strong opposition in the district to splitting its communities. The Government has listened to that concern and has responded by acting in the interests of both the local communities and wider regional governance. I will be introducing a Supplementary Order Paper to propose retaining the northern boundary as the current regional boundary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAuckland has struggled with a governance system that did not meet its needs effectively for over 50 years. This bill will ensure that the new structures will be in place in time for the October 2010 local government elections, and will mean that the Auckland Council will be up and running on 1 November 2010. The Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill is a priority for the Government. It is important that the bill proceeds through its remaining stages as soon as possible so that the Local Government Commission has time to complete its work on boundary, ward, and local board issues by March next year. Timely passage of the bill will also give the Auckland Transition Agency the necessary direction to complete its work in time for the Auckland Council and its local boards to be up and running on 1 November 2010. This bill will enable the Auckland governance work to progress and is the next step towards an even greater Auckland. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00220d3b5141a2ff40fa858563dc4df90b19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d3b5141a2ff40fa858563dc4df90b19\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I want to thank the officials who worked on behalf of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. I also acknowledge the work of the chairman, the Hon John Carter. He was not my choice to be the chair\u2014I thought it was disgraceful to have a member of the executive chairing the committee\u2014but I will be fair; I think he did a good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting that the Government says it was listening. It was not. It listened to what it wanted to hear, and it blocked its ears to what it did not want to hear. Of course, that was the case with the first bill, now the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Act 2009. It was rushed through, without a select committee hearing, and that approach has continued. M\u0101ori and the vast number of the submitters thought there should be M\u0101ori seats, but the Government did not listen. We have heard since that it is not listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis bill tells us about a lack of democracy. When people come to a select committee in such numbers and so united in what they say, I do not think is very sensible to ignore them. It shows a lack of democracy by a Government that sends SAS troops to Afghanistan to help with democracy but does not practice it at home. This bill is all about the madness of John Key. We have a Cabinet that is full up of people who come from the Auckland area, and they sat in the Cabinet room and were absolutely silent on the issue. Many of them know it was mad to select Rodney Hide as the Minister of Local Government. They picked a person who had an agenda, but it coincided with the agenda that the Government had. I think that was mad. What has Murray McCully, a Cabinet Minister, said about this bill? No one knows. What has Wayne Mapp, another Cabinet Minister, said about this bill? He has not said anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003ETau Henare has said things. He said he believed there should be some M\u0101ori voices around the council table, but he got dumped on by his party\u2014a party that used to say how good it was that one could cross the floor of the House and speak one\u2019s mind. Paul Hutchison is another member who belatedly spoke out. I want him to tell me what he will tell the people who live in the Waikato area of Pukekohe why they have to travel down to Hamilton to get a resource consent. They will have to go all the way down to Hamilton instead of into Pukekohe. That does not make sense, and Paul Hutchison did not try hard enough to stand up for them. I challenge him to cross the floor when we vote on that matter, but will he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227418e47343b9461abb2653c8062e1aee\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: No way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248db645030cb4bad89db55d68fc98201\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, he probably will not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI think of other Cabinet Ministers like Dr Jonathan Coleman. He did not say anything; he ran away like a scalded cat. I think of Paula Bennett, who has a majority of about 635; she will be gone from this House in the next election. When the issue first came up she opened her mouth, but it was absolutely slammed shut. I think of Pansy Wong. She does not seem to speak in the House, not even on this bill\u2014not on anything. She is the most silent member of Parliament. I think of Maurice Williamson. Everyone thought he would be a bit of a rebel and stick up for his local people, but he has not. Then I think of Judith Collins. She did not even turn up to a meeting where her constituents wanted to see her in Papakura last night. Why not? She probably had a dinner date. She was probably at some flash Wellington restaurant, drinking right-wing chardonnay and rattling the glasses. She would be swigging it back and eating caviar while the people in Papakura suffered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThese changes in boundaries included talk about the change in Rodney, and I welcome that change because that is what people want. But in the Franklin area, the Government is giving away Auckland\u2019s Hunua area to the Waikato. It is the playground for people in South Auckland, and, indeed, most of Auckland. Mike Lee, chairman of the Auckland Regional Council, pleaded with the Minister of Local Government. Federated Farmers put it like this: \u201CIt\u2019s like condemning Auckland and Franklin to King Solomon-type solutions, without the wisdom.\u201D I think that is a very good summary of it all. I hope Paul Hutchison takes that on board and goes and talks to Federated Farmers and to Colin Bull and they give him a load of it, because in the end he has to make sure that he sticks up for his area. We know that his colleague right next to him from Papakura will not stick up for her constituents, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003ESome members should have turned up to the select committee a bit more than they did. Hone Harawira all of a sudden found out that there was not going to be enough work done to get M\u0101ori seats. He should have been there all the time. He should not have missed a single meeting, but he did. That demonstrates that if one is there all the time, if one is speaking to people after the meetings and is listening to people, one starts to see patterns emerging. That is what happened with the wards. First of all, the Government was going to have eight people elected at large. Then it changed its mind because a number of people said those all should be elected by wards. But I say that we should not be tricked by the National Government. How big will those wards be? Will there be three or four, five or six, or 20 or maybe just 10 wards? People still do not know the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe National Government wants people to take it on trust. Well, I can tell them they can never ever take a Tory on trust. I have been in the House for 19 years and have never found National members to be the most honest people around. I am quite surprised by them. I think one of the things that people will be doing is paying more in rates. The Government has not told us how much all this reorganisation will cost. One thing is for certain: the rates will go up and they will go up 3 months before the next election. I think this Government ought to be wise to that. It is very interesting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI say to Dr Paul Hutchinson that he should go and talk to his colleague Nikki Kaye. She got what she wanted for Waiheke, so why did that member not get what the people of Franklin wanted? She got that because she is better than him, even though he has been in the House longer. I see that Nikki Kaye is embarrassed, but she should not be. I know that she secretly believes how good she is. But Government members are disorganised. Tau Henare and Paul Hutchinson have spoken out against the bill. Where is Georgina te Heuheu\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da3eef3f5b3449a9876471b2df2c0204\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Time and time again we have heard this member pronounce names incorrectly. In my case, it is \u201CHutchison\u201D; the Hutchinsons were a branch of the family that invented the thumbscrew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ae4f3175f042ce843de46894019ee0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Members should take as much care as they can with pronunciation. I also caution the member that he referred to the absence of a member in asking where somebody is, and he must not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c2554e7cfa4a6ba8572e32dc9b4dd4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member opposite. I did not know that his relatives were inventing thumbscrews, but I will take his word for it. It is a pity they did not put one on him until he squealed loud enough to make changes to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3d1f97e893414880bface194390438\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds like they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f346750c5bf4a7691cd13276f934c98\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis bill will be the first nail in the coffin of the National Government. It is very interesting that Rodney Hide is the person who is preparing the hearse, ready to take the National Party into the next election with legislation that will annoy and burn away at Aucklanders for a long, long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b573673bfb54ff3a039e06d3b9aab28\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b92e2ba3c1624cf39920e171f74c0953\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Urgency Motion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022202dbec9485843e0a80d8c878867b74a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022202dbec9485843e0a80d8c878867b74a\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (Assistant Speaker\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I need to correct the record of the vote on the urgency motion. The result was announced as Ayes 68, Noes 54. The correct result is Ayes 69, Noes 53, and the record will show that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ab229186ea8493dba28321380f956d7\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4494bfd5de94f3cba561f30c3a240d7\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000326\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022441e8f50079b49c0939729396377438f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022441e8f50079b49c0939729396377438f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E That was a sorrowful speech, unfortunately. I thought that the previous speaker, George Hawkins, might well have made a better contribution than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI start this speech by saying a number of thankyous. I thank the Prime Minister for the leadership and guidance he has given through this issue relating to the change of Auckland governance. I particularly thank the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, for the work he has done and guidance he has given. I have to say that it has been a great privilege to work with the Minister of Local Government in my capacity as Associate Minister of Local Government. Thank you, Rodney. I also say a special thank you to all the members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and to all the people who worked in it\u2014yes, I mean all the members. I must say it was one of the more constructive select committees that I have worked in. I say thank you to each of its members, because this bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, has come out of the select committee process far better for the input of all the committee members. Although it is true that we have not agreed on all issues\u2014if members refer to the report of the select committee and particularly the minority reports, they will see those parts that are of concern to the Opposition parties\u2014nevertheless, we should not overlook the fact that there is a great deal that we do agree on, and I will talk about that shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI also thank all the staff of the select committee and the officials who worked with us, because, again, they made a great contribution. It was a hugely challenging time, particularly during the hearings, and they ran particularly well. I want to place on record my thanks to all of the staff, whether they be staff of the Clerk\u2019s Office or staff of the departments. I thank them and, of course, the Parliamentary Counsel Office for all the work they have done on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI pay a particular tribute to Aucklanders. There were many people outside of Auckland who made submissions as well, but I must say that the contribution of Aucklanders is the reason why this bill has moved forward in the way it has. It was great to have the input from the public of Auckland. Indeed, it was because of the work they did and the many contributions and thoughts they put in the heads of the members of the select committee that we have arrived at the conclusions we have. So Aucklanders can today take a bow for the way in which they have made this bill to represent them so much better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI think this is a great day in relation to how we address Auckland issues, and I say it for this reason: if members of this House reflect on where this debate started and the controversy there was about the way in which the royal commission tabled its report, and then the response of the people to the Government\u2019s response, it was hugely controversial. Over the months there has been a great deal of work and communication with the people of Auckland particularly, but also with others throughout the country, as we moved forward on this issue to make sure that we ended up with something that is going to work for not just Auckland but also New Zealand. I think we can take a bow when we think about where we started 4 or 5 months ago. There was the big issue around boundaries, which is where the controversy is. There were issues about how we did not want a change in the structure of Auckland, about how the local boards were not going to work, about how we did not want to have councillors at large, and about how we wanted to make sure we had a change in the voting system. There were so many things that were not going to work, but the select committee and, indeed, the Government have responded to all those requests. When we think about what was controversial and what we are debating today, we know that, as we move this bill forward, what is happening is a great step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI want to remind members of the Opposition that it is they who actually started this process. They were not prepared to take the thing head-on so they handed it to a royal commission as an easy way out, but they started the process. At least this Government had the fortitude to get on and make it happen. I remind members of a statement made by one of the members on the select committee. He said, and the other members will probably want to use this: \u201CThere was a feeling for quite a long time that the city wasn\u2019t working properly, with traffic problems, crappy infrastructure, and a downtown that looks like a bomb site. There was a lot of grumpiness about that. I think our Government was very late in coming to the party and doing something about it.\u201D Who was that from? Well, none other than Phil Twyford, the spokesman for Auckland from Labour. [Interruption] He did say that. It was a quote in an August Listener. There was a change of Government, and the National-led Government has got on and made it happen. We should not overlook the fact that the reason we are debating this is because this Government picked up where Labour was too scared to go, and it has got on with the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we also need to understand is that this bill is a huge step. It is a major piece of legislation, and it is a major change that is being made. There was never any suggestion that we were going to get it right in the first go. It is an ongoing process. The first bill we introduced into the House, under urgency, set the framework to get us started, and we should not forget that; it was an important step. The next bill we put in was what one might call the skeleton. The Auckland Governance Legislation Committee was charged with the responsibility of putting the flesh around it, and to a large degree we have done that. We have taken on board the wishes of the people of Auckland. We have talked about a lot of the issues. The main thing that the people of Auckland asked for, and the most important thing for them, was the power of the local boards. They wanted to ensure that their local communities were represented, but the most important thing the submissions asked was that we empowered the local boards. I am pleased to say that that has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIf I can pause for a moment, I will just say that the reporting of this legislation and this process as it has moved forward\u2014in particular by the New Zealand Herald and Bernard Orsman\u2014has, in my view, been outstanding. Bernard Orsman has done a good job, with one exception. He did not get his reporting right in regard to the powers of the local boards. Unfortunately, it was because he did not have the opportunity to read and study it enough. During the Committee stage I will take members through that, and I hope that Bernard and the New Zealand Herald are listening so that they can understand the powers that have been given. I have been rung up by many of the chairmen of the community boards, by Mike Cohen and people like that, who say thank goodness the Government has done it, because it has got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis is part of an ongoing process. As the Minister stated in his speech, there will be a third bill. But it is ongoing even beyond that. We know that we will not get everything right in the first go, but this Government is prepared to give it a go, and, my goodness, given where we started, we will not ever please everybody, but we have made a big shift in pleasing the majority of the people who made submissions. People are now saying to us \u201CLet\u2019s get on and make this happen.\u201D That is what will happen with this bill and with this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52e3eac5d304c6fa32496364a2e8aa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52e3eac5d304c6fa32496364a2e8aa8\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Before we turn to the body of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill 2009, it is right and proper that we should acknowledge the officials who have worked on the preparation of advice and serviced the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. In much of what a committee has to do, in many regards it takes it on trust that the quality of the work will reflect not only the policy of the prevailing Government but also the officials bringing professional skills to the task. So let me say that first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI now turn to the very sad face that Auckland will show going into the future. In many respects that has been driven by the most unfortunate development of a sense of conceit by the Minister of Local Government. The Minister of Local Government has come to this task wanting to drive an agenda of regulatory reform. That is not in itself a bad thing; all politicians are entitled to bring their agendas to this House. But it does became a very tawdry affair when the rights of the people who, in this case, comprise the population of Auckland are being summarily dismissed and trampled upon. That is why, although we support the reform of our largest city\u2019s governance arrangements, we do not support this bill. This bill has been driven in such a way that the interests of Aucklanders have been put in a subservient position to the agenda of this man, Mr Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Government members have sort of made the bill into a bit of drollery as they have gone along in the whimsical sense of Mr Carter, who said they would get out there, put their gumboots on, and roll their sleeves up. But hold on a minute, he said, he had made up his mind when he was having his first cup of tea that the Rodney boundary would be over here. Then he said taihoa, he had been up to \u014Cmaha with his mate the Prime Minister, his boss, and found out that everyone who lived in \u014Cmaha had a flash house and did not want the k\u016Bmara gardeners of Kaipara to run their lives. Then he blamed the select committee, as though its members were the authors of this misfortune and this bias. Fortunately, the Prime Minister has corrected Mr Carter\u2019s agenda of drawing a line in the sand. We are not entirely sure why the first line was drawn where it fell. We do know, however, that the very unprofessional outburst by the Associate Minister of Local Government, Mr Carter, who knows better than to do that\u2014he is one of the longest-serving members of this House\u2014and who has come up with such a made-up, unprofessional result, really reflects the way in which the entire process regarding Auckland\u2019s governance has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis process was started when the previous Labour Government was in power. We recognised that there were deficiencies in the governance arrangements for T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Auckland. We knew that, so we went ahead and set up a royal commission costing $5 million, $6 million, or $7 million, and appointed a notable jurist, Judge Salmon, to it. He is extremely disappointed that the constitutional importance that a royal commission has and the quality of its work have been slapped down in order to meet the petty, short-term political imperatives of this Government. But, unfortunately, given the quality of the politics that surrounds this issue at the moment, Aucklanders are left with that result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAfter an enormous amount of work had taken place within the royal commission, the report arrived here, and what happened then? Without the Minister of Local Government even opening the first page of the report, he threw out, first, the notion of M\u0101ori seats\u2014and we will have a bit to say about that during this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022713fe5facee84791ac8fdf694254bb6b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I bet you will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258aca85886dd4b7c91ba33135e038d51\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Will you, Tau? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200a3f7facc604724bbac25bc9f4156f1\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223efa356fbf4940ba89f6f272098e0ff9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, he then destroyed the model of five or six seats. Now, I hear from my Ng\u0101ti Hine kinsman there that he will have a lot to say about the M\u0101ori seats. I look forward to that. He is entitled, as a list member who lives in Auckland, to have a view on that. But the problem that Aucklanders have is that depending on the audience, he changes his view. Tau Henare is a man who does not take wise counsel; he takes wide counsel. He uses a loud voice, because when he speaks there is a density to be penetrated that is greater than the average MP\u2019s powers of comprehension. So we look forward to hearing more from him. But let us come back to how the royal commission carried out its work with integrity, good faith, and goodwill, and how its report was taken before the citizens of New Zealand\u2019s largest city and basically destroyed as a consequence of the narrow agenda of Mr Hide. Anyhow, let us carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAfter that took place we had the dreadful episode of the Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill being thrust upon the House and rushed through, without any consultation with any neighbourhood, suburb, or anyone, unless it was with the personal friends of those who were the architects of the ideas and text of that bill. The entirety of South Auckland and west Auckland were written out of the script. We soldiered on through that and took a great deal of credit from the great efforts that members on this side of the House made to make this Minister and his colleagues in the National Government accountable. Of course, they lost their way during the debate on that bill until they were able to gain access to a constitutional expert at about 1 o\u2019clock in the morning, who pointed out to the Minister, Mr Rodney Hide, how he could overcome the difficulties that we were showing them as a consequence of doing our job as honourable parliamentarians. The National members tugged at some sort of constitutional expert, who then consulted the son of the k\u016Bmara growers of Kaipara, Mr John Carter. Then they changed the name of that bill and gave it a M\u0101ori name\u2014the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Bill\u2014despite the fact that it was an anti-M\u0101ori bill, and they squeaked home, changing very little in the bill. They were afraid to consult on that bill and to give an account of their stewardship in relation to the royal commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAfter the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, the second bill on Auckland\u2019s governance, was served on this House, we hard-working, toiling Labour parliamentarians, in the spirit of goodwill, toiled away and created a product that, unfortunately, shows the bias of the Government and not the goodwill of the House. As a part of doing that work we created a small subcommittee. It is important that we enter these episodes on the record of the House. We created a small subcommittee that comprised Simon Bridges, Shane Jones, Hone Harawira, and Metiria Turei, chaired by Tau Henare. The purpose of that subcommittee was to go on to the marae around Auckland and hear from the tangata whenua and the broader M\u0101ori community. Our well-proportioned but well-behaved subcommittee chair could not even deliver a report to his own caucus and back to the wh\u0101nau who had made an attempt\u2014a wasted attempt, unfortunately\u2014to come and address us about their concerns. Those concerns went from the hopes of rangatahi right through to the anxieties of senior citizens from the M\u0101ori community. We were glad to use our time in such a way that those people had their democratic right to state their piece. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhat those people did not know was that Mr Hide wanted to demonstrate to the M\u0101ori Party how impotent it is on matters of power and commerce in our largest city. He succeeded in doing that. M\u0101ori Party members came up with such a complicated model as to how they would reflect M\u0101ori representation in T\u0101maki-makau-rau that they gave Mr Hide, who is a wily politician when it comes to matters of racial discord, and the Prime Minister a brilliant opportunity to write M\u0101ori out of the script. The M\u0101ori Party members realise their egregious error in not backing the royal commission. Before they read even the executive summary of its report, let alone the conclusions, they had described the report as being timid and not empowering enough. They mistakenly thought that the power of their relationship with the major party of the Government would be ballast enough to create a better result than the royal commission had recommended. They failed, and they tried to blame Tau Henare, and they rightly blamed Rodney Hide. But Mr Hide knows that his constituency is anti-M\u0101ori. His constituency is made up of people who want to enlarge the size of the private stake in Auckland governance, not the public, civic stake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis issue really was an amazing lesson for the M\u0101ori Party on how not to push an agenda in politics. Of course, the model that the M\u0101ori Party members pushed was so complicated and so favoured mana whenua that if it was used for the election of MPs, the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, Pita Sharples, would never have been elected in the T\u0101maki Makaurau electorate. That is why this bill is a very tawdry affair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc1016a8aa24a0f88eed5dbf13457a3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I am now advised that the Green Party wishes to cut its 10 minutes of speaking time into two 5-minute slots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002295c0969ebd654039917284d31bddc6e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295c0969ebd654039917284d31bddc6e7\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party continues to oppose the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, despite the fact that some beneficial changes were made during the select committee process and even as late as yesterday with the Government\u2019s U-turn on the northern boundary issue. Just as we were adamant in our opposition to the first super-city bill, which was sped through under urgency and without even the most limited period of consultation with the people of Auckland, the Green Party remains concerned at the way this concept continues to be imposed on the region as a fait accompli, without even a poll of Aucklanders as required under the Local Government Act 2002. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned at the lurking threat behind all this that National and ACT are really creating the conditions that will allow a right-wing council, in future, to sooner or later strip the city of its assets. Even if those on our side of the political fence are fortunate enough to gain the mayoralty and the majority on the new council next year\u2014and I certainly hope that that happens\u2014there is no guarantee at all that, in future, when Citizens and Ratepayers, or a similar team, regains or retains power, the dreams of Rodney Hide and the nightmares of people in Auckland will not become a reality. The Green Party will continue to work with others in this House, including Phil Twyford, who has done some champion work on this issue, to try to enshrine at least some protections against asset sell-off in both this bill and the next bill dealing with Auckland governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EBeyond the risk of asset stripping, the Green Party is also particularly concerned at the refusal of Government to make any provision for M\u0101ori seats on the new council. An overwhelming number of submitters who made comments on this to the select committee, including P\u0101keh\u0101 and Pasifika as well as M\u0101ori, strongly supported some form of guaranteed M\u0101ori representation. It is a pity that on this issue Mr Key has chosen to go with Mr Hide instead of with the other partner\u2014the M\u0101ori Party\u2014and I continue to wonder how the M\u0101ori Party acceptance of the lack of representation fits in with their organisational efforts and support for the powerful h\u012Bkoi held on that rainy day in May. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIt is interesting, too, that Mr Key said last week that the Government would back down on the new super-city boundaries for Rodney and Franklin if there was enough of a community uprising. He then went on to backtrack on the northern boundary yesterday. Yet, at the same time, the powerful demonstration of support for M\u0101ori representation, both on the streets of Auckland and at the select committee, has obviously counted for nothing. I cannot help but wonder what special powers the citizens of Rodney have that others do not. Although we Greens have totally supported them in their desire not to have half their district arbitrarily assigned to Kaipara, it is a pity that the voices of certain other citizens of Auckland have not been given at least equal weight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe absence of M\u0101ori representation on the new council also makes it more important than ever that the voting system should be single transferable vote (STV) rather than first past the post. STV, with its greater proportionality, would maximise representation not only of M\u0101ori but also of other people in the city who traditionally find it difficult to win votes under first-past-the-post systems. I will be putting an amendment during the Committee stage seeking to change the bill so that the first election for the new mayor, council, and boards next year will take place with an STV vote. It is the most democratic form of voting, and I call on National and ACT to reconsider their position on it. If they are serious about making the best possible job of the new governance structure, then they should take responsibility for ensuring that the process is as fair and inclusive as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EContrary to what some in the Government would have us believe, the people of Auckland are not universally delighted with the new arrangements. There is a lot of grief amongst many people in different parts of the region who feel deeply the loss of generations of community pride and identity. We owe it to all 1.4 million Aucklanders to ensure that the legislation we are dealing with this week and the next bill are as good as they can be, given that the new arrangements now seem inevitable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00220b68bbc4e6da4b30b96041d16b365152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b68bbc4e6da4b30b96041d16b365152\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard a lot of talk about the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, how it has been improved by the consideration of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and how local boards have been given more powers under this bill. But if Aucklanders take the trouble to look at the fine print of this bill\u2014and I sincerely hope that many will\u2014they will quickly realise that in the way the super-city has been set up, the Auckland Council remains the all-powerful governing body run by an all-powerful mayor, and the 20 or 30 tiny local boards will be totally subservient to the Auckland Council, with no real decision-making power, no autonomy, no staff, and no funding of their own. With only four to nine members, local boards will simply be too tiny and too fragmented to have any real influence or power. As Bob Harvey points out, unless the local boards are given additional powers during the Committee stage of this bill, which is unlikely, they will be little more than sewing circle meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe bill concentrates power in the hands of the mayor\u2014academics call it the \u201Cstrong mayor\u201D model\u2014and it gives the mayor powers that no other mayor in New Zealand has. Why is this? The mayor will be able to control the council by selecting his\u2014and I use the words \u201Che\u201D and \u201Chis\u201D advisedly\u2014inner cabal. He will be able to push through his agenda on to the city and veto any decision that any local board makes that he does not like. Under this bill, he can even appoint himself as head of any committee that he likes, and, of course, he is the one who develops the budget and the strategic plan. He even gets to decide whether the council will consult Aucklanders. One of the provisions in the bill says that he and he alone will determine the \u201Cprocesses and mechanisms \u2026 to engage with the people of Auckland.\u201D I ask members to look in the bill. What if a future mayor\u2014say, Mayor Banks\u2014decided that he did not really want to consult Aucklanders, particularly about contentious issues such as the sale of Auckland assets? The chairs and deputy mayors will be appointed by the mayor and will be beholden to the mayor, and I know from 8 years of experience as a Wellington city councillor that once the mayor controls his inner cabal he will effectively control the agenda of the council, and other councillors outside of this inner cabal will have very little say or influence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe 20 or 30 local boards will have no staff of their own. All the advisers will be appointed by the chief executive of the council and they will not have clearly defined powers. The Auckland Council, which is described in the bill as the \u201Cgoverning body\u201D, not only will hold the purse strings but will decide what responsibilities it is prepared to delegate to the new boards, and it will retain the power of veto. So a local board can, for example, develop a local by-law, but it will have to be approved by the Auckland Council, and it can be vetoed by the Auckland Council. The New Zealand Herald pointed out in its editorial that the commentary on this bill says it is intended to ensure that \u201CThe council and boards would have \u2018distinct roles rather than operate in a hierarchical relationship\u2019. But anyone looking for the \u2018distinct roles\u2019 to be specified in the law will look in vain.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe key clauses in the bill, which set out the principles, are totally confusing: they hold out the prospect of decision making but then they basically set out a whole lot of vetoes that the Auckland Council will be able to have over the local boards. If, for example, a progressive person was elected mayor, perhaps that person could interpret the provisions of the bill liberally, delegate powers to local boards, and make the local boards work. But I ask members to be aware that if John Banks were elected Mayor of Auckland, under this bill he would have powers that are totally Draconian\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb816650ff84495946c25cfeb272bce\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s so silly!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c2911ff003b441a8bd8ceef5afeceb2\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The powers are Draconian, whatever John Carter protests. We will point out the powers to listeners paragraph by paragraph in the Committee stage. If John Banks were elected he would have Draconian powers; he would inevitably become a sort of tsar of Auckland able to exercise total control of the Auckland Council and the local boards, and decide whatever consultation he might have with Aucklanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ELocal government works best when it is genuinely local, but this super-city will be probably the largest organisation in New Zealand, with $28 billion of assets and up to 6,000 staff. What is actually being set up here is not a local government, but a form of State government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00229e8cedd646ae4954875351e68ca35352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e8cedd646ae4954875351e68ca35352\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take just a very brief call to say what a privilege it has been to be on this historic select committee, which will do something truly wonderful for the most important city in our country outside of Tauranga. I will have a lot more to say on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill at the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u002291d88de97d4a4ce08109ecffcef8ae77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291d88de97d4a4ce08109ecffcef8ae77\u0022\u003EHon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. I would like to acknowledge the work of the officials, and members of the select committee, and all of those who made submissions. Over two decades ago an esteemed group met in Auckland to hear the \u014Cr\u0101kei claim. That group, consisting of the Chief Judge Eddie Durie, the late Bishop Manuhuia Bennett, the late Sir M\u014Dnita Delamere, Professor Gordon Orr, Professor Keith Sorrenson, and the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, who met to consider why Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua had lost their land. All sorts of explanations had been put forward, from native inexperience to modern technology to the suggestion that Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua were a dying race and needed to divest themselves of their trappings in order to progress. None of these reasons satisfied this esteemed group. In its report, the Waitangi Tribunal concluded that Ng\u0101ti W\u2019atua was: \u201Ca tribe that initiated and aided substantially the establishment of Auckland on its land, that stood by the Crown in moments of great crises, that held fast to law and order despite every vicissitude put upon it, and which suffered the most dreadful consequences and then through no fault of its own\u2014and great fault on the part of others \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe tribunal\u2019s report is part of a rich archival history that records the context surrounding the gift of Auckland to the Crown. Ng\u0101ti W\u2019\u0101tua is reputed to be the first iwi to promote British settlement following Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Its members probably regret that now. All this was done on the basis that eventually Ng\u0101ti W\u2019\u0101tua would share in the economic benefits of the establishment of the head of State amongst their people. One might think a partnership might bring with it an honourable relationship. The Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill would have provided a perfect opportunity for the honourable intentions of Ng\u0101ti W\u2019\u0101tua to at last be recognised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe legislation to establish the governance structure of the Auckland Council could have provided for a specific mechanism to represent, and present the values of, mana w\u2019enua. The royal commission handed this mechanism to the Government on a silver plate. Its recommendation sought to establish a Treaty of Waitangi standing committee elected from the M\u0101ori roll for every local and regional council; to have specific numbers of seats for both mana w\u2019enua and non - mana w\u2019enua M\u0101ori on local and regional councils; to have M\u0101ori represented within the governance structure, as well as within an autonomous forum outside the governance structure, the regional mana w\u2019enua committee; and to ensure there were tribal representatives who oversaw kaitiakitanga of their respective taonga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EHowever, as the record now well and truly shows, and the select committee has endorsed, there will be no M\u0101ori seats established on the Auckland Council, despite substantial support from submitters to the select committee, and, indeed, submitters to the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance. Such a decision calls into serious question the fundamental basis of the parliamentary democratic process\u2014that is, to reflect decision making of the people, for the people. Even though a substantial proportion of the 2,538 submissions recommended it\u2014as, indeed, did the 3,537 submissions received by the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance\u2014no provision is made for M\u0101ori representation. We supported the royal commission\u2019s report. I say to Mr Jones that I am proud that we supported mana w\u2019enua, because it was mana w\u2019enua who aided and initiated the establishment of T\u0101maki-makau-rau. Such was their generosity, not that of all the taura here who live there now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIndeed, the select committee recommended that M\u0101ori representation is best decided by the people of Auckland via the provisions of the Local Electoral Act 2001. Letting Auckland decide has not exactly been successful up to now. As our colleague Tau Henare expressed so clearly, M\u0101ori political representation signifies progress; eight M\u0101ori councillors elected on to the Auckland City Council in the last 150 years does not. M\u0101ori political representation is not only consistent with current provisions in the Local Government Act 2002, it is also about upholding the nation\u2019s constitutional foundations. The M\u0101ori Party believes that dedicated M\u0101ori seats uphold the relationship established between our people and the Crown through the Treaty of Waitangi, including the partnership established with the mana w\u2019enua of the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process Ng\u0101ti W\u2019\u0101tua Nga Rima o Kaipara noted a historical request from rangatira Paora T\u016Bhaere in 1860 calling for unity between M\u0101ori and Crown in governance. So, in respect of this humble call from the people, we will be putting forward a series of five amendments to lay in the House as options to invest in decision making by mana w\u2019enua, and to strengthen M\u0101ori representation on the super-city council. The amendments are as follows: two mana w\u2019enua seats with candidates put up by the mana w\u2019enua and voted on by all M\u0101ori; two mana w\u2019enua seats, whereby the candidates sign a w\u2019akapapa declaration that is voted on by all M\u0101ori; two M\u0101ori seats voted on by all M\u0101ori; one M\u0101ori seat voted on by all M\u0101ori; and, finally, ensuring the Local Electoral Act 2001 provisions are lawful if Auckland Council members or electors want to establish M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe reality is that the w\u2019anau, hap\u016B, and iwi have a good deal to offer at the governance table for the Greater Auckland region. The National Urban M\u0101ori Authority came to the select committee demanding that the legislation acknowledge the Treaty obligations by ensuring M\u0101ori participation not only at the council level but also in every ward and every large council area, cascading down on to the board, and acknowledged through the totality of administration. This is about opting in, being inclusive, and being able to participate. It is about Treaty justice and social justice. Justice must be the guiding ethical ideal for Parliament, its members, and its committees. We must summon the collective courage to create new laws in order to set new and just precedents to resolve enduring issues of concern to the nation, and the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill should be a pathway forward to do just that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EFinally, I will refer again to the importance of this bill, and the opportunity that it could have afforded us to create a representative democracy, a democracy built on the founding document of this country, te Tiriti o Waitangi. Such an aspiration is probably best summarised in one of the submissions to the select committee, from Ariel Armstrong of Papakura, and I will quote from that submission: \u201CIt is long past time when New Zealand acknowledged Te Tiriti o Waitangi in the most meaningful way by ensuring that M\u0101ori voices are heard at the most important tables. Our historic debt to M\u0101ori particularly in regards to the role played in the history of T\u0101maki-makau-rau needs to be recognised. It would reflect our country\u2019s heritage, build our society as a whole, and position it for the next century.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EVoting on our five amendments is one way that we can right the wrongs, demonstrate that we have heard the views of the people, and ensure that M\u0101ori voices are heard at the most important tables. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac0ea13dd30543909000448ac6dc934c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac0ea13dd30543909000448ac6dc934c\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to speak to the second reading of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. This process was started by the previous Government, and it is pleasing that we are well down the track of completing it. It is major legislation. It has been a collective bill, because the previous Government started it, we are completing it, and the Minister of Local Government has been very much involved with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe rationale behind this legislation is that Auckland governance basically was not working. Increasingly, there was dysfunction in all the different communities, there was stifling bureaucracy, and there was a lot of duplication. This bill is about unifying Auckland so that we can go forward and make progress. This legislation needs to be ready for the local body elections for 2010, and we are on track for it to be ready for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI felt really privileged to be a member of this select committee, and to hear the hundreds of submissions. I commend the chair of the committee, the Hon John Carter, for his chairmanship. There were long days, but John Carter chaired with expertise and good humour at all times. I also acknowledge my fellow committee members and commend them for their diligence, hard work, and goodwill. I felt that it was quite an extraordinary select committee in that we made progress and worked well together. I also thank the officials for the enormous work they did, including their work on the logistics of getting all those hundreds of submitters to be in the right place at the right time. Often the arrangement of venues was all last-minute stuff, so the officials did an extraordinary job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThere were 2,538 submissions in total, which is an astonishing number. The chair of the committee wanted to make sure at all times that all submitters who wanted to be heard were heard, and they were given that opportunity. A special subcommittee was convened to go to Great Barrier Island, and three subcommittees went to marae. We went to the people, travelling to the seven Auckland districts. We went to North Shore, Rodney, Franklin, Papakura\u2014indeed, all over Auckland. We went to where the people were, not the other way around. I found I gained a real insight by going to the different areas and listening to the different communities as they spoke about their specific communities. It really made a profound impression on me that our communities are alive and well, and that they are the heartbeat of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI was very impressed with submitters. I was moved by their passion, and by their concerns and fears about what might happen with their community. Without exception I was encouraged by their commitment, whether they were individuals, community groups, voluntary groups, businesses, or councils. They had their points to make, and they certainly made them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EAs a result of the select committee process a number of changes have been made, the most important of which, I believe, relates to the power of the local boards. I will talk about that first. The second tier of governance was always going to be critical. The power of the submissions impressed us all as a committee. Communities were very concerned that they would be overlooked in the super-city structure, with the Auckland Council running the show, so to speak. They were concerned that they would lose their identity and their voice. They were concerned that they would be toothless and impotent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe new local boards will not be the same as the current local community boards or city councils; they will be a new form of board, with the power of this legislation behind them. They will be required to listen to their communities and consult their communities, and they will have specific powers and responsibilities. As a result of the select committee process, local boards will have dedicated budgets. They will have the money to carry out the wishes of their communities in the plans they will have. Local boards will have autonomy. They will be responsible for providing local services and for investing in their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about putting the \u201Clocal\u201D back into local government, and it is doing just that, so I think that the fears of the communities and the individuals we heard will be allayed once they understand the powers of the local boards. Communities will be represented well by their boards. Local boards will be able to propose by-laws that will have to be adopted, provided they are truly local and comply with all plans and laws. The enforcement of those local by-laws will be able to be done even by the local board where that is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThere were a lot of submissions about a lot of issues, including the number of councillors and how they will be elected. But I leave it there because there will be considerable debate about these issues during the Committee stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddfa80171efb48ccbb09f139d78d9c24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddfa80171efb48ccbb09f139d78d9c24\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this important bill. I want to convey to the House the Labour Party\u2019s acknowledgment and appreciation of the submissions made by hundreds of individuals from the four corners of the Auckland region, and by the many community organisations, businesses both small and large, environmental groups, and churches. They all gave of their time and energy to prepare and make submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the community board chairs and their councillors, and the mayors, who submitted on behalf of the eight local body authorities, whose right to exist was snuffed out earlier when the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Bill was rammed through the House under urgency. I acknowledge, like others, the parliamentary staff who worked under the extreme pressure the Government put them under in order to rush the whole process through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour has consistently advocated for the reform of Auckland\u2019s governance structure, but Labour opposes the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Labour supports the general belief that Auckland is incredibly important to the future of Aotearoa New Zealand, so we have fought every inch of the way to ensure that Aucklanders have a say in the process and that we get the structure right. We have fought tooth and nail to get the structure right and to ensure that Auckland\u2019s future is assured as an internationally competitive, dynamic, and socially inclusive city and region. After all, Auckland is home to 1.4 million people from over 180 different ethnic groups. It has the highest M\u0101ori population, the highest Pacific population, and the highest Asian population. In fact, 70 percent of new migrants settle in the Auckland region, and a third of all the people who call Auckland their home were born overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWill the governance structure enable us to be united in our diversity in the Auckland region? I do not think so. Auckland is regarded as our nation\u2019s economic powerhouse. It is the fastest-growing region. A third of the nation\u2019s workforce resides in the Auckland region, and 38 percent of business enterprises are based in Auckland. Auckland provides 35 percent of our nation\u2019s jobs, and 70 percent of imports and 40 percent of exports pass through Auckland. My favourite place, M\u0101ngere, is known as the gateway where Aotearoa New Zealand touches the rest of the world. Will the governance structure enable us to release the full potential of that economic powerhouse? I do not think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour opposes the Government\u2019s bill to set up the super-city structure, as that structure has become more undemocratic and will deliver our largest city a flawed governance model. Much-needed progress has, sadly, been compromised by bad decisions; poor process, including a sham consultation process; and a lack of vision. Before the election Mr Key promised that once the royal commission had made its views known, he would consult Aucklanders. But the Government introduced the process of reorganising Auckland under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThere were many submitters from the four corners of the Auckland region, and they conveyed to the select committee their outrage at the hasty and rushed manner in which the Government was advancing this significant change to the local government as we know it today. The resultant imbalance will centralise power in the hands of a privileged few. The model is highly unlikely to achieve the royal commission\u2019s goal of increased community engagement in Auckland\u2019s local governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ENational and ACT have made a mockery of the democratic process. The royal commission consulted 3,500 Aucklanders, and, after 18 months of that work, it released a comprehensive report with substantial amendments. The Government took 2 weeks to come up with a response. There was no consultation whatsoever, but Aucklanders had the right to be consulted on the select committee process that was undertaken by the Government. The public was consulted on this bill only after they put pressure on the Government. Although the select committee took the time to reach out to the main centres of the Auckland region, and although the chairman did a good job in facilitating those public submission sessions, many submitters felt that they were not heard or that the Government was not listening. Many individuals felt they were not given enough time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI give members the example of the boundary changes\u2014north and south, yes or no. Many submitters, right from the beginning, opposed the Government\u2019s original submission. What we have now is an eleventh-hour change\u2014albeit a welcome change. But right from the beginning, despite the overwhelming evidence from Rodney and Franklin, the Government was not prepared to budge. Government members on the committee said they were listening, but in reality they were not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWhere was the mana-enhancing relationship with M\u0101ori. Where are the M\u0101ori seats in a region in which the highest proportion of M\u0101ori reside? When we talk about enhancing mana, whose mana are we talking about? Whose mana was really enhanced as a result of this process? It was certainly not the mana of M\u0101ori, of Pacific people, or of the diversity of people in the Auckland region. It is sad that the Government, having listened to the overwhelming evidence of people who supported M\u0101ori seats in the new super-city, decided otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMany people submitted on the issue of M\u0101ori seats, and I would say that a significant proportion who supported M\u0101ori seats were P\u0101keh\u0101. Some of them talked about Auckland being an inclusive region. Some of them talked about the need to ensure that we do the right thing by our Treaty partner. Many of them did not know how the super-city would be structured with M\u0101ori seats\u2014whether there should be two, three, or five representatives. There was overwhelming support for the view that this is a new era and a new opportunity for this Government to provide M\u0101ori seats, if it really has the vision to benefit all the people in the Auckland region. But the Government did not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe royal commission outlined an inclusive structure for the super-city. It noted that those in power needed to consider the participation of Pacific as well as Asian communities. Every single submitter from the Pacific community\u2014whether an individual submitter or from the Manukau Pacific Island advisory body, the Waitakere advisory body, central Auckland, or North Shore\u2014supported having M\u0101ori seats. But those submitters also said that there is a need for this Government to recognise that the Pacific community needed to be part of that structure, and the best starting point was where things are, which was strongly recommended by the royal commission\u2019s report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAlthough the Government does not want the Pacific community to participate in the super-city, I ask my friend across the Chamber, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, what the Pacific community is asking him, and, if he is really listening to what the public is saying, unlike many of his colleagues, whether he is prepared to support the Supplementary Order Paper, which Labour will introduce at a later stage in the debate, to ensure that there are Pacific and Asian advisory bodies in this new governance structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022753f86d7f6d84016afaf5c096b4cd17d\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223353fdb21d5c41eab7e9fff590dbc127\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I am asking Mr Henare whether he will be supporting the Supplementary Order Papers that the Opposition will be introducing to have M\u0101ori seats in this new structure. I say to members opposite that they should be visionary and provide good leadership and strong leadership. If they can do that, they will be able to support our Supplementary Order Papers to introduce an inclusive structure for an inclusive Auckland. Then we will be able to receive the benefits of a stronger region and a stronger people in the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EFinally, although Labour supports empowered local boards\u2014and we credit the public for making submissions in support of them\u2014and although we support ward councillors, my colleagues and I feel that the Government still has the structure wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1cc086a37064d9da63657a894dbf4f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1cc086a37064d9da63657a894dbf4f8\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Auckland is an incredibly gifted city, with a third of New Zealand\u2019s population and a unique and diverse people and geography. Auckland has the stunning Hauraki Gulf, many bayside beaches, and New Zealand\u2019s largest business district. How we better engage with people who are younger and of different ethnicities will be very important in the future. The reform of Auckland\u2019s local government will help us put a structure in place that will help deliver this engagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EDespite Auckland\u2019s gift in nature, there has been concern about the governance arrangements in Auckland for the last 50 years. In the past there have been attempts to fix this, such as the establishment of the Auckland Regional Authority in 1963, and the amalgamation and the establishment of the Auckland Regional Council in the 1980s. However, none of these initiatives managed to provide solutions to the fragmentation and incoherence in Auckland local government. We may be the fifth best city in the world, but we are ranked 43rd in terms of infrastructure. As the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance said, the governance arrangements in Auckland have led to competing leadership, duplication of facilities, complex and fragmented decision-making processes, and weak accountability. The royal commission heard about the endlessly increasing rates, suffocating red tape, transport bottlenecks, delayed development, and lost opportunities. The Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill will give Auckland, the mayor, councillors, and local boards the power and structure to fix these problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ETo members of the House who say we should wait, consult, and do endless referendums, I say that there has been an 18-month process with over 3,500 submissions to the royal commission, followed by 2,500 submissions from Aucklanders to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. Aucklanders have had the opportunity to have their say for over 2 years. At what point does one say that we have had enough consultation and should get on with it? That is the feeling that I am getting from Auckland\u2019s local government staff, who are waiting for job certainty. That is the feeling that I am getting from some local body politicians who are already out there campaigning. That is the feeling I am getting from the people of Auckland who want the world-class city that they hear so much about, but that they have never had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe royal commission agreed with the Government about moving quickly when it challenged the Government to make changes in time for elections little over a year from now. We will achieve those changes. This bill is the beginning of a process that will lead to better connections across the region, better value from rates and central government funding, better community control of what matters in Auckland\u2019s neighbourhoods, and better decision-making on the key issues affecting Auckland\u2019s and New Zealand\u2019s future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe have been focused on two simple goals: delivering effective regional governance on regional matters, and delivering strong local representation. As a result of the submissions, there have been significant changes to the legislation. Some of the most significant changes have been in the area of local boards to ensure strong local representation. We have significantly beefed up the powers of local boards, ensuring that they have the power to really represent their communities. The mentality of the past of patch protection is one of the reasons that local government is being improved. Under this bill, local boards will get real authority to deliver to their communities. We propose 20 to 30 local boards because we believe in grassroots democracy. This structure will better enhance and protect the community voice. The local boards will be small enough to account for the future population growth of Auckland. Local boards will develop local board plans to reflect the priorities and preferences of their communities for council services and facilities. The local boards will be able to use these plans to establish agreements with the governing bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EMany submitters came to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and made the point that with greater functions and powers, there needs to be adequate funding for local boards to deliver for their communities. The select committee has listened. As a result, the boards will have funding and control of their budgets that will enable them to function appropriately and effectively for their communities. The local boards will have responsibilities for making decisions on local issues, and will be able to reflect the particular character and preferences of their communities. I am pleased that the communities of Waiheke and Great Barrier Island have been guaranteed local boards, as islands in the Hauraki Gulf are surrounded by water and are clearly communities of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EInevitably, the boundary decisions will be some of the most contentious, as we heard during the select committee process. There were more representations from the people of Rodney, and the Government listened to those representations and responded. Now, in response to the wishes of the residents of Rodney, the entire area of Rodney will fall within the Auckland Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EFinally, the Auckland Council will be able to provide leadership and deliver core services across the region efficiently and effectively. The mayor and councillors will make decisions on Auckland-wide matters, including resource management, building code requirements, public health, and civil defence arrangements. We are delivering for Auckland on what they have missed out on for the last 50 years. A strong regional entity will help deliver the transport system that Aucklanders want. It will help deliver better regional, environmental, arts, and disability strategies across the region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the many Aucklanders who submitted as part of this process, and the officials who supported our select committee. I am proud to be part of the Government making a historic change for Auckland. This is the beginning of a new era in Auckland\u2014one strong city with many diverse villages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00223b3e58a6d3c04d72bed2e8658f9ca026\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b3e58a6d3c04d72bed2e8658f9ca026\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I, too, as a member of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee want to make some acknowledgments at the beginning of my speech. I acknowledge the officials, who worked very hard under the whip hand of the chairman, John Carter. I acknowledge my fellow committee members for a very collegial and constructive select committee process. I particularly acknowledge the submitters. I think we all recognise that they turned out in force to passionately defend their communities, to defend their democracy, and to defend the future of Auckland. It was, as Jackie Blue commented, a moving and inspiring experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EParticular acknowledgment is due to the chairman, John Carter, who was wheeled out as the kinder, gentler face of reform, to try to soothe the shattered nerves of Aucklanders who were somewhat agitated by the actions of the Minister of Local Government. But I fear that for John Carter the epitaph of his political career will not be that he was the man who saved Auckland or who built the super-city; I fear that he will go down in New Zealand\u2019s political history as the Max Bradford of Auckland local government. Future Governments will be left with the job of cleaning up the mess that this National-ACT Government is creating in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour members have made clear many times that we support governance reforms in Auckland. We do. We were responsible for initiating the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance. But we do not support this bill. I intend to explain in detail why we do not support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe result of several months of public debate and select committee consultation is disappointing, to say the least. The progress that Auckland needs and Auckland demands has been compromised by a series of botched decisions and poor judgments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c4d89034ca4b2aa73994b0dd9e0fe4\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Name six.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc1f448d5324ee2a4d59afa90578f9d\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I will name more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f213d9157f4517b69f95b04578e601\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe7035e2e9c4eb89836abc05b5cbc5e\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to\u2014those members should not worry about that. The result, which is set out in the bill, is a flawed and undemocratic model, and Aucklanders deserve better. To demonstrate how badly let down Aucklanders have been over the last few months, I will touch on some of the botched decisions and poorly judged proposals that have been presented by the Government over the last few months. When members hear them they will agree that it is hardly surprising that Aucklanders have lost confidence in the Auckland governance reform process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe first thing was a proposal from Rodney Hide in April, 9 days after the royal commission had handed down its report, for 20 to 30 toothless local boards. The proposal generated a uniformly negative response from Aucklanders, who were horrified that the Government would even suggest such a thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESecondly, during the select committee process an overwhelming majority of the submitters\u2014or \u201Csubmissioners\u201D, as I heard someone in the House say recently\u2014rejected the idea of at-large councillors, because they would be undemocratic and unaccountable to local communities, and in all likelihood would be captured by the rich and famous from the big end of town. It took months before the Government finally saw sense and climbed down from that ridiculous proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EPerhaps the most damaging and destructive of the policy dead-ends was the whole issue of M\u0101ori representation. The royal commission argued, reasoned, and presented a very persuasive case that the new super-city needs to be inclusive, and that M\u0101ori have to be at the table. Creating a new super-city in Auckland in the 21st century without tangata whenua at the table should be completely unthinkable. The commission made the case. I think it shifted public opinion significantly. M\u0101ori mobilised around the idea. We saw 7,000 Aucklanders marching round the city and up Queen Street on a rainy day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think the Government has passed up a significant opportunity to move New Zealand forward and move Auckland forward in an inclusive way. It would have been the visionary thing to do. But what did we see? We saw a debacle that undermined the legitimacy of the whole select committee process. We heard the Prime Minister say: \u201CI want to reiterate that the Government approaches this process with an open mind. We are listening to Aucklanders.\u201D Well, the Government was not really listening, was it? We know now in hindsight that even before Tau Henare\u2019s select committee subcommittee had toured round the marae of Auckland to listen to Aucklanders\u2014M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014submit on the issue, the Minister of Local Government had threatened to throw his toys out of the cot, and Cabinet had decided not to have M\u0101ori representation on the super-city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe fourth debacle, the fourth climb-down by the Government, the fourth absolutely sham consultation procedure, is the boundaries. It came down to the fact that at the eleventh hour, 24 hours before the bill returned to the House, Cabinet made a panicked, last-minute decision to bring the Rodney District into the super-city. What kind of Government dithers for month after month, then makes a decision to cut the Rodney District in half and consign 15 percent of the land area of Auckland to the Kaipara District Council? On what grounds was that decision made? It has never been explained. What a half-baked idea! Whose responsibility was it? I suspect it was the responsibility of the member who has just entered the House, Rodney Hide. I would like to hear an explanation during the course of the debate about the decision-making criteria he used to come to the proposal that the Rodney District should be cut in half and the northern half given away to the Kaipara District Council. So we saw a panicked, half-baked resolution 1 day before the bill returned to the house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe process of the governance reform exercise has been rushed. We saw a compressed select committee process; less time than normal was given to the bill. The first bill, the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Bill, was pushed through under urgency and was not even given the courtesy of a select committee hearing. The same legislation confiscated Aucklanders\u2019 right to a referendum under the Local Government Act. That has never been forgiven by Aucklanders. The sum total and effect of running such a compromised and mediocre consultation process has been to tarnish Aucklanders\u2019 confidence in the entire process and to undermine the legitimacy of the Auckland super-city project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour will vote against the bill, for the reasons I have outlined. We will table in the course of the debate some 14 amendments that address Aucklanders\u2019 concerns about the bill. They address the lack of M\u0101ori representation; the half-baked decision on the southern boundary; the number of councillors, which we believe is too low; the need for Pacific, Asian, and youth advisory boards; and provisions to protect Auckland\u2019s assets from privatisation. There will be an amendment on the question of staff transition, which the Government has refused to take up so far. The amendment guarantees fairness and guards against forced redundancies. We will put up an amendment about the monitoring and accountability of the new Auckland Council, which will ensure that the new water monopoly and other council-controlled organisations are properly accountable and transparent. And we will put up an amendment about the Social Issues Board, which is one of the most innovative, significant, and thoughtful proposals that emerged from the report of the royal commission. It is a proposal that the Government has chosen to ignore and dignify only with the fig leaf that Paula Bennett has announced of some sort of social issues forum, which is a shadow of the comprehensive proposal of the royal commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8d5486a34484695a3e3d541dc90fab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8d5486a34484695a3e3d541dc90fab6\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Speaker for giving me the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df48f7e3e171442980b6ebd9a112e262\u0022\u003EHon George Hawkins\u003C/span\u003E: Cross the floor! Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcdd759ef4de49b0bbb6b99b88f776a4\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I love it when the Opposition members get on their high horse and tell me to cross the floor. In all my years in Parliament, not once have I seen that so-called principled stance from Labour members. Not one of them has got up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a824093cd74b5884dddbe3233be1a3\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: How many parties have you been a member of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bdbdb4094834316add07c5285e734bf\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter, bozo. Bring it on! This is the most condescending\u2014[Interruption] Kia ora, whaea. I must admit that I made a mistake. The only courageous woman in the Labour Party was Tariana Turia. She crossed the floor. I admit my mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI am sick to death of hearing the condescending attitude from the so-called liberals of the nation. Labour members stand in the Chamber and twaddle on about what they will do and what Supplementary Order Papers they will bring on the bill. Not once in the 9 years when Labour was in Government did it ever move to have M\u0101ori representation\u2014not once. Labour members run round Len Brown like he is the big bee. They think Len Brown will fix the problem, so they will support him. Where was Len Brown in the Manukau City Council? Where was Bob Harvey in the Waitakere City Council? In fact, where was Andrew Williams in the North Shore City Council? Labour members\u2019 talking about delivering M\u0101ori seats is a load of old cobblers. At least I went to my caucus. At least I put up the issues. OK, I might have lost, but some say that is democracy. Some say: \u201COK, you took a hit. You lost the issue.\u201D Well, at least I faced it, and I did not muck around the mulberry bush either. I did not use people to back myself up like the Labour Party does. Not once\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe1dfb986fd84848a9c3bf9763583151\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: Take a sip, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e94d6c5cb6b4dee840dcf2dda8a308d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: We hear from Mr Davis, who grew up in the Far North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022897da5cc22af498a96310e6489f1a73c\u0022\u003ECarol Beaumont\u003C/span\u003E: A fine member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0681dfd9e149ffaae0cf546628eb3e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: A fine member when we can find him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adae912ca2424d3cb00d055947e12223\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Because you\u2019re so high profile, Tau!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227365df1bd3454c97afb1e65bcf5b3e5b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I have a profile; I do not need to hunt a profile. I want to say, about the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba859d7e24e400a8ad8e42a1edd7965\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: Talk about this issue!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a326de3858ee43a9907faf46ec2d03b8\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely; not the Fabian rubbish that I hear from Mr Twyford. The select committee did a good job. It did a wonderful job. In fact, most of the members on the committee attended most days\u2014except Mr Jones. But that could have been for other reasons. When we went to the three marae, we made it quite clear that, yes, we were there to listen, but we were not there to promise anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f294eeda7f4450bcb35aebf6be7387\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s what you want to do anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f980b922b443d5a7e1337f8a8f0551\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me? Who said that? Which girl was that? OK, it was Twyford. It was Twyford. But we did go out to our people and say to them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff3530b7f994e01938389e8b25fc218\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Put your teeth in!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b1a0b4efb24dcb84c2e49fc644b602\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I could tell that member where to put hers! At least we went and talked to our people. Then I hear from the Labour Party that it is as if there were no M\u0101ori seats. It was as if the M\u0101ori seats had been taken away. But we have never had M\u0101ori seats in local government under a Labour Government or a National Government in the last 150 years. I tell members opposite not to get up on their hind legs and try to take the moral high ground. Why do I say that? Because it does not wash. The people of Auckland, the vast majority of Auckland will be quite happy with the super-city. They will be quite happy with one mayor and 20 councillors. They will be quite happy to get on and see a vision that takes Auckland to where it should be, not where it has been for the last 20-odd years. In closing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e47bdc1f9840f1898690de52655b35\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Painful to listen to! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522ee882163c4bda99ba5e88bbb4d850\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That is typical from the Fabians on the other side of the House\u2014the eugenicists. But that is another story. M\u0101ori will continue, regardless of what happens on the super-city. M\u0101ori will continue to fight for what they believe in, regardless of what the Labour Party does or what the National Government does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225a598f74e9d4639a1b00bc60d950c49\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What a pathetic justification!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1bb86e7e6f649f384653de02f303e22\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Pathetic? M\u0101oris are pathetic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a6d9d46a2445ffa6872cb7cb0dcadc\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re making excuses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8a160dab5545448538d30facbcde2f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are a great people, because we fight regardless of the numbers, and regardless of what the liberals say. There is always a fight there for M\u0101oris. When Maoris fight, they fight because it is about their families and what they have always fought for. Regardless of what happens, M\u0101oris will always be there the next day, the next day, and the next day, fighting for what they have always fought for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e522db4e4ddf4dda9251f4ba292bbec6\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re apologising, aren\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222504f309223e45899c2b263be1f78a8c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, absolutely. I apologise for not being able to win the argument. But that is what it is all about; it is about numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f58413e2d9f4903b8c14fca3b5e1fb9\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re apologising for your party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d41abf8b64b44c1bd6b69eeb385a46c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not apologise for my party. I apologise to my people for losing the debate and losing the argument. If that is a sin, then I have sinned once too many times. I will say this: it was a great opportunity to hear what Auckland sought for its vision. I think we have delivered some way on that vision\u2014not all the way\u2014and it will be up to Auckland in the years to come to determine what true vision it wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226dc4167a1de0454bbe7eb263df5b3a63\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f46ceca257747d2af9e6bab32620188\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022628a260a136f4a63aec69c7805323f62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022628a260a136f4a63aec69c7805323f62\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill to be a 16-hour debate, with members having unlimited numbers of speeches of 5 minutes each, and for the provisions of the bill to be put at the conclusion of the 16-hour debate as one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ff745dc94594270b435b052db21f0f2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none; it is agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce20d564868f413a97246fcb609e80e1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b224f6cbeab541a893cc86621af03fc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b224f6cbeab541a893cc86621af03fc5\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for an additional matter regarding the ability for members to take multiple calls and not be limited\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acff748fee004788928da860504badfb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: That was in the leave sought. That is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a95e437d8bcd4f08a528155600c8e958\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00225d60cbfc0b164667a475ba978c33e863\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d60cbfc0b164667a475ba978c33e863\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I will give an overview of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill: it is the second of three bills that together will result in Auckland\u2019s regional and local affairs being governed by one mayor, councillors all being elected from local wards, and local boards having real authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Government has kept its eye on the goal shared by all Aucklanders, which is to be a truly world-class city based on effective regional governance, on regional matters, and on strong local representation. Throughout, we have sought one mayor, one council, and one plan for Auckland. That is what we will now have. We have not worried about those who confuse\u2014and I put the Labour members in this camp\u2014listening and being responsive with backing down. There has been no back-down on the principles we put forward when the royal commission first reported. When the Government announced its first high-level decisions, the Prime Minister said that the aim was to allow Auckland to, firstly, think regionally; secondly, plan strategically; and, thirdly, act decisively. That remains the goal and that is what is to be done by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe have shown it is possible for a Government to make decisions in a way that takes account of others\u2019 views and that is still speedy and effective. That is what good Government is about. We want local government that gets on with it and gets things done, rather than just endlessly talk about it. We want local government that listens and will change its mind, and will have the courage to stand by its assessment of the fundamentals. We want local government that does things in a transparent way and makes decisions in an open way. That is the sort of decision making we have seen with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788d68ccf98749fda731db6e9ed14547\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Like on M\u0101ori seats!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237079ac6be954b2bb8d2a876e612cf56\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: We were challenged by the royal commission to make the changes needed in time for elections, a little over a year from now. Much to Mr Twyford\u2019s horror, this Government is on track. We are on time, and, unlike\u2014as Mr Twyford admitted\u2014the Labour Government, we are delivering for Auckland. I remind listeners what Mr Twyford said Labour delivered for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232828527f8dc44119d5dc27930bdcb16\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What did they do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224782d80023a248ec89b23d8422a840e1\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, apart from the Hon Judith Tizard, it delivered nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe report of the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance was not the only thing known about the need to reform local government in Auckland. Auckland\u2019s future has been debated for decades. In fact, I say to Mr Twyford that Michael Joseph Savage stood on a one council policy in 1919. Forty years later the New Zealand Herald ran a series of articles about the need for a change. Various efforts were made, but they were all too late and they were all too little. The result is the Auckland that we have today\u2014a structure that actually has no defenders. I have not heard any party in this Parliament stand up and say that what Auckland has now is optimal or good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThis Government will not wait. Auckland deserves better and Auckland deserves it now. The royal commission heard about endlessly increasing rates, suffocating red tape, transport bottlenecks, delayed development, and lost opportunities. This bill will not solve those problems, but it will give Auckland one mayor, a council, and local boards with the powers, structures, and authority to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn an area that is home to 1.4 million people there are many diverse neighbourhoods and diverse needs. The Auckland region must be able to attract and keep people; operate efficiently; offer an unparalleled lifestyle; and enable business, arts, and sports to flourish. Many of the things holding Auckland back relate to the way the city is run. Important Auckland-wide matters get tangled up in the competing interest of local councils, and community concerns get tangled up in the local councils\u2019 perspective on Auckland-wide matters. It is time for a fresh approach. This is the beginning of a process that will lead to better connections across the region, better value from rates and central government funding, and community control of what matters in our neighbourhoods. The price of doing nothing is far too high, not just for Auckland but for all New Zealanders. Let us make Auckland, this great place, even greater. Let us make Greater Auckland great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Auckland region has tremendous natural advantages. One-third of New Zealand\u2019s population lives there in an outstanding natural environment, and it is New Zealand\u2019s principal business centre and gateway to the world. But there are weaknesses, and these decisions are all about addressing them. Those weaknesses are due to the structure of governance in the region, with competing leadership, duplication of facilities, complex and fragmented decision-making processes, and weak accountability. That is what these bills will fix. The functions that require region-wide decision-making must have governance arrangements that meet that need, thus the move to a single city. Just as important, the functions that are best performed at the local level should have advocacy in decision making at that local level. That is why we have strengthened community representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere were 3,500 submissions to the royal commission, there were 2,500 to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and there has been intense media coverage. I and the Associate Minister, the Hon John Carter, have fronted up to meetings, so too have Cabinet Ministers, and so too have Government MPs. We have fronted up to meetings, news conferences, and interviews. Our decisions and the Cabinet papers leading to them have been published. Every possible criticism has been made. Every possible position has been supported. Everyone has been able to have a say. We will meet the challenge of the royal commission to have the new Auckland Council in place for next year\u2019s elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThrough this process Aucklanders have shown that they care passionately about their region. As a consequence, I have every confidence that the new structures will bring forward people able to give Auckland and its communities the representation they so desperately need to create a world-class city. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022169887677b3e4961a84290c0029c29cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022169887677b3e4961a84290c0029c29cc\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E We heard the Minister of Local Government talk about the high-level decision that the Government has made, and, indeed, it was very high. It was far too high to involve the public in the very early stages when the Government embarked on this plan. The Government did not have any select committee hearings on the first bill on this reorganisation of Auckland governance, the Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill. Things were put in place so that it was inevitable that all that was left to debate on this second bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, was how the new super-council would operate. I think that is something that people in Auckland do not understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EMany people made a lot of preparation before they went along to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. These were people who had given years of their lives working for ratepayer groups, community groups, and local clubs etc., and they felt that something was being taken away from them. Something was going to go, and they had no control over that. I said earlier that I thought John Carter chaired the meetings very well. But the trouble was that a lot of people did not understand how things worked. I hear Rodney Hide saying how good it will be to have one mayor for Auckland. It may well be, but a lot of people want to keep their local mayor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI think one of the things that the Government has not understood is the relationship that people have with their present councils. We saw it when we went out to Henderson. We saw the people of west Auckland making submissions. They were passionate, and they believed in Waitakere. They even believed in Bob Harvey. That surprised me somewhat. They spoke with real passion about Bob Harvey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIn south Auckland, of course, we have Len Brown. People think that he does a great job. He gets around and sees the very young people whom others feel a little intimidated by. He talks in their language, and he gets around schools and public meetings. In Papakura, Calum Penrose has real passion. As mayor he is out until 2 a.m. making sure that kids get home safely. That will not happen with the new super-council with a super-mayor. Perhaps that is what people are really upset about. People are mourning the passing of their councils. That is something the Government has not fully understood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI am proud to say that in South Auckland we elect M\u0101ori and Pacific Islanders on to councils, and that is really important. When the Government decides how many wards will be elected and how many people will be in each ward, I hope the Government does not count out those M\u0101ori and Pacific Island people who have put themselves up for election. It is very easy for those who have money, who can advertise, and who can write to people to get their message across, but in South Auckland the real value we see in having councillors who are M\u0101ori, Pacific Islanders, and even Asians is that they understand the people in their area. That representation reflects the area, and that is hugely important. Unless the representation reflects the area that people live in, we lose something that will be very hard to recover. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a663e992963475b9eb2b6319393498b\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Why did you only want six councils?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889b686b7fa84407832736083b3a6364\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: If they were councils, that would not be so bad, but they will not be councils. That member knows they will be little, toothless boards. The member thinks that if we have enough toothless boards, the Government will have something that people really want. Well, I was at a meeting in Papakura last night and I know that is not what people want. They do not want a toothless board; they want a council that can make real decisions and spend the money, not have to go begging for it from the regional council, the super-council, the greater council, or whatever one wants to call it. They do not want to go begging. These people have pride. They want to be able to make their own decisions for their community. It is really important that people take part in their community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EOne of the things that people talk about a lot is that people are not as involved in politics as they were many years ago. I do not see it that way, because I have a huge membership\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c12649ea323490d87db2ede40795a40\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221bb7dea55094a3a917eefbdb0f84e0d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Huge; I get close to a thousand. I have to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddadd83d281c46678e03638605d8ca23\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not so big in National Party terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250116933bae0419893c2547443c9550c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party in Manurewa has about five members, and that is exactly the point I am making. People are not involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EPeople want to be involved, but they want to be involved locally. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is not what the Government understands. The Government thinks that big is best. People in Auckland realise that big is more expensive. They fear that their rates will go up\u2014and they most certainly will. People who live in areas where there have not been so many leaky buildings think that their council will have to share the costs faced by other councils that need to fix up their mistakes. They feel that although they had no say over those decisions, they will have to pay. They feel quite strongly about that. They also feel that many of the little organisations that have survived because they have been helped and funded by their local council will not be able to get the same help in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EPeople in my area talk with a lot of passion about the swimming pools and say that kids can get into the pools without a charge being made to them. That is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3411b152d854a7494ecb760b8014223\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And they\u2019ll still be able to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae04d10a683b4483808446f4c33ee50f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The chairman of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee says they still will be able to, but that is for the Auckland Council to decide. That is not certain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e22622f5e6749738e29878944a28c76\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Not the Auckland Council; the local board will decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e139033c0a5f4747ba10d504cfa52db3\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The local board may do, if it has enough money, but it has to go begging for that money. I do not think that members should be so dishonest as to say that of course swimming pools will be free. They may not be, and that is the trouble. People realise that they may not be free. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThen we have a situation with libraries. The select committee had some good submissions on libraries, but what will happen in areas where libraries serve across a boundary? That will quite possibly happen, so people will feel that the ownership of something will be taken away from them. Members should reflect on that issue over the next 16 hours of debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169ccadcf82f428aaaf053c46c023ecb\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ae4a50088b4a9fb3322e052ae550aa\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Tauranga, who sat on the select committee because the Government could not find enough Aucklanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b34face25be41bfb9222b4780f2b003\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: He never said anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221edda369c88d42eaa6ec6b9ec2ab8a7f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He never said anything; he turned his back on the M\u0101ori people. He may feel smug that he has a big majority but Winston Peters once thought that he had a big majority as well. When a member stops listening and becomes a know-all, that is when he or she is on the way down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe ordinary people, the mums and dads, feel that they are losing something in this deal. My challenge to the Government is to explain to people, over the next 16 hours of debate, how people will find things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00229aedd8678f584b1b88ee18db815b6c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aedd8678f584b1b88ee18db815b6c8d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I take this call because there are three or four things that we need to clarify, but first there is one point that I want to make about the whole system of how the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee worked. All the members who were involved will understand this, and, indeed, most people in the Chamber will understand it, but the public will not as much. I repeat what I said earlier, in my speech in the second reading of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, when I thanked all the members of the select committee\u2014and there were quite a number of them across the whole of the hearings. There really was a lot of cooperation, and the bill, I think, has been the better for it, because primarily the matter was not political at the select committee. It was about a whole bunch of politicians being really intent on trying to get the legislation as right as we could, given that there were political views. I think it is important to say that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe point I want to make, for a start-off, is that when we are in a committee listening to submissions, it is a judgment call, at the end of the day, as to exactly what the public have said. We can judge it by the numbers, we can judge it by the strength of arguments, or we can judge it by a whole lot of other factors, but of course there will always be different views expressed on different issues. So for a start-off I say we can never please everybody. That is the first point. The second point is that finally it is a judgment call, and, funnily enough, politicians and Governments get it right most of the time and sometimes they get it wrong. A question was asked earlier by Phil Twyford about what happened with regard to the Rodney boundary. I want to say, as I said last night, that I got it wrong. What I thought I heard the submissioners tell us in Rodney was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd92f86b993f48c08ec084761e419774\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: How many other mistakes are made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f0a900231594618a6758183d5b29c2d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to concede that I got it wrong, not the select committee. I guided the National side of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI ask members to just let me make this point, because it is an important point to make. I thought I heard the people of Helensville and Kaukapakapa, and of the towns in what is called the western corridor, absolutely say they wanted to be part of the Auckland unitary authority. I thought that was what I heard them say. They said they wanted to stay as a rural local board if they could, but they certainly wanted to be part of it. We also heard from the submitters of Whangapar\u0101oa and \u014Crewa that they too wanted to be part of the Auckland unitary authority. But when it came to the northern part, I thought I heard the people there say they wanted to stay out, and, indeed, I guess, I was guided a bit by the people from Wellsford, which is at the very bottom part of the Northland electorate. So I recommended to the select committee, and particularly to the members on the Government side of it, that we should draw the boundary to the north of \u014Crewa and Kaukapakapa. I got that wrong, because, of course, when the story got out we received a volume of submissions from the north side, saying they wanted to stay in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI am happy to concede that the Government then made a decision. I worked with Rodney Hide and took a recommendation to Cabinet, and then to caucus, to say the boundary should be moved. I am pleased that the Government listened and was prepared to make that change. I think we need to acknowledge that that is exactly what happened. To Mr Twyford, who questioned why it went wrong, I concede responsibility for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBut I make this next point, because I need to put it on the table. I will move on to a point that actually matters. I will talk now about the local boards, because I heard the Hon George Hawkins make comments about whether the boards will work. It has been the intention of the select committee to empower the boards. To anybody who stands up and says the committee did not get that right, I tell that person to look at the committee\u2019s voting record regarding the local boards. Every party that was part of the select committee voted for the local boards as they are. All parties voted for those powers: Labour did; the Greens did. Sue Bradford, I have to say, was probably the most strident member in asking the officials what the powers of the boards meant. She was constantly asking whether the provisions of the bill would give powers to the local boards. The officials kept saying, yes, they were based on the principle of subsidiarity, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe boards will have tremendous power. They will be able to make their own decisions for their communities. The members of the Labour Party\u2014George Hawkins, Phil Twyford, and Su\u2019a William Sio; they were the people who were there, mainly\u2014and the others who were there all agreed that we had got the power right. When it came to the voting, it was unanimous that on that particular matter we got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me explain, in principle, how the system works. When the new unitary authority is established, one of the functions of the Auckland Transitional Agency will be to go and look at the local boards, when it knows what the local boards are\u2014the area of the local boards, who they are, how many there are, what they will be, and their names. It will take that information from the Local Government Commission and it will ask, in the case of, say, Devonport, for example, or Waiheke Island, which is definitely going to be a local board, as is Great Barrier Island, which of the activities that happen right now in Auckland City matter for the local board of Waiheke Island, or for the local board of Great Barrier Island, or, as I say, if there is a Devonport local board, or a Papakura local board in George Hawkins\u2019 area. The Auckland Transitional Agency will go to those boards and tell them which of the functions currently carried out by the respective councils are not regional functions, but are local functions that matter to the people. The Auckland Transitional Agency will prescribe to the boards those functions. Alongside that, it will advise them of the size of the budget the council is giving to allow those activities to be carried out. So the boards will be allocated that budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat sets the benchmark. Those local boards then get the authority to carry out those functions and will receive the funding for them. Once that is in place, the only way they can be removed is by negotiation. The unitary authority cannot come along and say it is too bad, but even if the Auckland Transitional Authority gave a board responsibility for providing swimming pools for free, or whatever the function might be, the board cannot do that. The fact is that any change has to be done by negotiation and agreement. If there is disagreement, then in the third bill we will establish an arbitrary committee that can make a decision as to who is right and who is wrong. So those authorities and those functions will be protected. If the unitary authority tries to remove them arbitrarily, it will go against the principle of the bill. It will go against the principle. So the boards are empowered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI ask members to take the time\u2014and I say this particularly to the Green members, because Sue Bradford asked this constantly, and I say this to the other Sue, Sue Kedgley\u2014to please study what is happening. All the members who were there at the committee agreed that we actually got it right on this matter. It was and is our intention to empower the local boards. Phil Twyford did not vote against it, George Hawkins did not vote against it, Su\u2019a William Sio did not vote against it, and Sue Bradford did not vote against it. They thought that the committee had got it right. It is important for people to understand that it is the intention, and, indeed, it will be the outcome, that the local boards will be able to do those local things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI will talk about one other thing in that regard. George Hawkins raised the issue of libraries. I suspect that in regard to libraries what may well happen is what a good number of submitters said: that the best library system we could have is one that is unified for service delivery across Auckland. That makes sense to me. But, of course, the local community will want to have an input into where its library might be located, etc., and it will still be able to. The unitary authority will set an overarching policy in regard to library services, because the best way to run them is on a regional basis, but the local boards will still have an input into how that works. There will be cooperation and agreement on it. That is one example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ESwimming pools are another example. Manukau, for example, already has, and will be given by the Auckland Transitional Agency, the responsibility for running its swimming pool. It will decide whether the pool is free; not the unitary authority. I say to Mr Hawkins that the local board will make that decision. The local board will be given the funding for that activity, if that is what it wants to do. It can provide free access to swimming pools for its people, because that is how the system works right now. But it will be the local community that will make that decision, not the Auckland unitary authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat is why we talk about empowering the local boards. That is the reason why we have written the legislation in the way that it is: because the community asked us to make sure that we give responsibility to it to make the decisions that matter to it\u2014and we have done so. One of the things I would like to suggest is that some of the journalists also have a good study of this issue. I will talk more about it later, because my time is running out and someone else will want to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022447110a27d984ff8aeb2847f34f4978b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022447110a27d984ff8aeb2847f34f4978b\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk a little bit about representation in Auckland and making any new body there much more representative of its total population. I think the Government has underestimated the feeling amongst Aucklanders that their very culturally diverse city is not being fully represented in all its aspects. That is particularly reflected in the debate over the refusal of the Government to allow specific M\u0101ori seats. There is also under-representation of other ethnic communities, new migrant communities, and Pasifika communities. If we look at the voting for council positions across the Auckland region, we see that there has been very much a dominance of people with European names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the ways of overcoming that, apart from the Government changing its mind and reinstating M\u0101ori seats, as recommended by the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, is to introduce the single transferable vote (STV). I support my colleague Sue Bradford\u2019s amendment to clause 23A to replace first-past-the-post voting with single transferable voting. What it means is that cultural minorities do not need to get, say, 50 percent of the vote to get in. If the new, multi-member wards have, say, three representatives, then the candidates need to reach a threshold of 25 percent; if they have four representatives, the threshold is 20 percent, and it is much easier for minorities to be represented. It is a very successful system that is used in Wellington and many other places in New Zealand. I think the citizens of Wellington really like the system. It is used successfully in the Australian Senate. It gives good representation to minority parties, including the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt would also be valuable for the mayor of this Greater Auckland body. We already have two candidates for mayor\u2014John Banks and Len Brown\u2014and others may come into the race. If there were, say, five candidates, then the winning candidate might gain the very important position\u2014unfortunately, it is too important in terms of its powers\u2014of mayor with just 25 or 30 percent of the vote, with the vote being split between the five candidates. However, if we had STV, then each successful candidate for a one-position vote, such as the vote for mayor, would have to get 50 percent or more of the vote, after preferences are distributed from the losing candidates upwards. So it is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESure, people say that perhaps later on we can have STV, but would it not be best to start out with the right system? It is much harder to change systems. In changing systems sometimes we have the problem of incumbents who are sitting there under the first-past-the-post voting system not wishing to change to STV, because it might endanger their particular position, even though a more representative system would be the result. We have tried in the past to have STV in Auckland through petitioning. A few years back the Greens and others were involved in a petition. We tried to get 10 percent of electors to sign it in order to force a referendum on STV. It is a hard struggle to get the right number of signatures for such a petition. It is a lot of work. It would be much better if we started off with the best system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe report of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee acknowledged the popularity of the STV voting system. It was more popular amongst submitters than any other system. In a place like the North Shore, for example, if there were three or four representatives in a ward, STV would allow minorities and people from different parts of the North Shore to be elected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002252dd417e464340eaa9582914149fa39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252dd417e464340eaa9582914149fa39b\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge the gracious apology\u2014the mea culpa\u2014from the Minister in the chair, John Carter, over the Rodney boundary shambles. I think that is the best description for it. John Carter makes it difficult for a member of the Opposition, because he is so reasonable and nice. On this side of the Chamber, we fantasise that there might be a Government with more people with the kinds of principles and integrity that are exhibited by John Carter. But I do not think we will let that member off the hook so easily. I do not mean to be ungracious, but I want to explore the issue a little more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Royal Commission on Auckland Governance spent a long time considering the issue of boundaries. If members have taken the trouble to read the commission\u2019s report, they will know that the royal commission presented some very thoughtful and persuasive arguments about the environmental and planning reasons for the Auckland boundaries being left where they are to include all of Rodney and Franklin. The commission made the case that a city the size of Auckland, growing as fast as it will over the next 50 years, faces a huge challenge in managing and containing its growth so that it does not continue to sprawl endlessly into the countryside. The simple rationale for having those extended boundaries is that in order to stop that endless growth we must have a peri-urban or rural fringe area of sufficient size beyond the urban limits but within the boundary of the authority. If we do not have that, we inevitably get the building up of huge development pressures on the other side of the urban boundary, and the leap-frogging of development into the rural area beyond the city boundaries, where, typically, we have rural councils not unlike the current Rodney District Council and certainly not unlike Kaipara District Council, which simply do not have the resources and wherewithal to manage and control that growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThat is precisely the situation we would have seen if Rodney had been partitioned as was proposed. The northern beaches that have been protected and safeguarded by the Auckland Regional Council in the face of huge development pressures would have been subject to a carve-up and, I would confidently predict, some inappropriate development in the years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe reasons the royal commission put forward were compelling, yet the methodology this Government used to decide the boundaries of Rodney seemed to be pretty much a case of: \u201COh, a whole lot of National voters are getting cross with us about this boundary, so I think we\u2019ll just cut the problem in half and make half of it go away.\u201D To be quite frank, that is mediocre thinking and decision-making, and it does not do much credit for this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will quote David Shand, one of the royal commissioners, who said last night about the consultative process that this Government has run: \u201CThe consultative process has been a bit of a shemozzle.\u201D For members who are not familiar with the term \u201Cshemozzle\u201D, it is Yiddish, meaning a confused situation. Mr Shand said \u201CI think people are pretty dissatisfied with the way the consultative process has been run.\u201D I would say that that is an understatement. In June, just a few weeks back, the Business Council for Sustainable Development commissioned a poll by ShapeNZ that quizzed more than 2,000 people, and 31 percent were opposed to the super-city, while 27 percent were in favour. More people opposed the super-city in every council area of Greater Auckland than supported it, except for Auckland City, which was the only area where there was a slim majority in favour of the Government\u2019s proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7e83fa2e3d49a281fe487d36b89878\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Was that 27 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ff9528298f34ab393b75a3736d87841\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, 27 percent were in favour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260485fa837e749d6ba7277ddfc167255\u0022\u003EHon Phil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the Labour Party polling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291290cef11cd47b9bfd7c453e67e6a8a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This is the Business Council for Sustainable Development. Of the people polled, 63 percent said they believed that the consultation process run by this Government was inadequate. Only 13 percent said they believed that the Government\u2019s consultative process was adequate. Here is the clincher: 70 percent of people polled in a sample of more than 2,000 people said they believed that the Government should hold a referendum. That is a very interesting question. I think we should come back a number of times during this debate to the question of why this Government chose to confiscate the right of Aucklanders to a referendum on this forced amalgamation under the Local Government Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab0947c5a894cb5962e0568b7ca5bf6\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: The royal commission didn\u2019t recommend a referendum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227212906eb8a847e6ae8b7393e5cde3a7\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: As it stands, every other citizen of New Zealand who is affected by a forced amalgamation is entitled to a vote on whether their council should be subject to a forced amalgamation. We have to ask ourselves why the Government would choose to take that right away from Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6431b9285c44517ba52255b05f93e80\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Because we listened to the royal commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe0b14b72aa0442bab43edcae1c377b6\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Auckland Central wants to know why we disagree with the royal commission. No one says the royal commission got everything right. I have not said that, and no one on this side of the Chamber has said it. The fact is that 70 percent of people polled in June in the ShapeNZ poll said they should have a referendum. Some members of the Committee, including the Minister of Local Government, have claimed that the issue of the super-city is so complex that we could not possibly put it to a referendum. I ask members of this Committee to think about the referendum on MMP, because that was the last major constitutional change to our system of government. What did we have? We had a royal commission and two referenda. I put it to the Committee that the change of Auckland governance\u2014the creation of a new system of regional government\u2014is in fact the most significant constitutional change to our system of government that we have seen since the introduction of MMP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere is no good reason why it should not have gone to a referendum. There is no reason why Aucklanders should not have had a say about whether they wanted the Auckland super-city. This Government had every opportunity to develop and advance the proposals for the Auckland super-city, to consult, to give people a say, to refine the proposals, to put them through a select committee process, and to then put the final, fully finished, and completed proposal in front of the people. I have yet to hear any convincing explanation in this Chamber from this Government about why that was not done. This whole process was a shemozzle, according to David Shand, and it has had the effect of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e1dc825fd5497e92c231da199392f4\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Spell it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed179161acb4e2ba71e348bae915310\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: S-h-e-m-o-z-z-l-e. The way this Government has mishandled the whole governance reform process over the last 5 months has made Aucklanders suspicious, mistrustful, and anxious that this Government is corporatising their democracy, that it wants to run Auckland as if it is a business, and that the final goal is privatising our assets. Not only that, but that suspicion and that mistrust has spread south down through the map to all other parts of New Zealand. People fear, quite rightly, that the Auckland super-city is a guinea pig for local government reforms that will be rolled out around the rest of the country. The Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, said that the reforms were being modelled in a way that would enable them to be \u201Creplicated around the country\u201D and that \u201Cif the super-city worked well, it could be a model for the rest of the country\u201D. So is it surprising that people are scared that this whole corporatisation of democracy in Auckland is going to be rolled out around the rest of the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d196d7090cba4e1490d80c6abda30de2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Corporatisation!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b42a7f36ae4b6695e38f95fb38a991\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I guess National was doing some polling, because it did not take very long for John Key to back away from that idea. He distanced himself very quickly and said, as he always does, \u201COh, that\u2019s just Rodney talking.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u00220d57fb2d91c84d3d9439b14ef1ecfff8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d57fb2d91c84d3d9439b14ef1ecfff8\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It is very good to take a call on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I will start where Phil Twyford and his contribution finished by talking about the great weight that Labour puts on the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance and also on a referendum. But the royal commission, which Phil Twyford puts great weight on, said that a referendum had only superficial appeal. I give the member a bit of advice as a new member like him: something National is doing very well is listening and then, once it has listened, acting. We do not need to have a referendum on these things to know what to do, and that is one of the big reasons why our political party has been doing well in recent polling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI want to start in this 16-hour discussion\u2014and I am sure we will hear from Phil Twyford a number of times\u2014by commenting on its length. It is quite right that we take our time with this bill, and that we have the time to go into some detail where it is necessary to deliberate, to consider, and to really get into what is a very significant step forward for this country. The interesting thing about that is the view\u2014again, Phil Twyford has talked about it, and it is big point that Labour members made in their minority report and in their contributions in this Chamber, if we can call them that\u2014that we are getting the process all wrong, and that we are not taking enough time. I think having a 16-hour debate shows just how well we are taking the time on this matter. We want to air the views. We did that, of course, in the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee so ably led by John Carter; I will come to that very soon. But I want to say again, with some degree of seriousness, what a privilege it is to have been on this select committee. I do not want to get all teary-eyed on Phil Twyford, but I will be able to say to my grandchildren\u2014God willing\u2014that I was on the select committee and that we did something to make Auckland a lot better than it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EOne of the things that made the select committee so successful, probably the critical thing, was not George Hawkins\u2014he was good, and I will come to him\u2014but the very able, skilled, and calming chairmanship of the Hon John Carter. In his entire time on that select committee he did not get angry, he did not talk over people, he listened a lot, and when it was necessary he made interjections and comments. He did a tremendous job, and I know that all members on the select committee share my view on that. Without going through all the members of the committee, I say that it was a very positive committee, it worked well together, and\u2014I will come back to this\u2014it listened very, very hard to the people of Auckland. Because of that we have been able to make a number of improvements to this bill. As John Carter said time and time again on the select committee, we took the bare bones of the legislation and put flesh and muscle on it. That process was very good and it was a privilege to be a part of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EBecause we are here for 16 hours it is worth pondering for a moment the importance of the task that we face and that we in the select committee faced. We were dealing with the biggest city in Aotearoa New Zealand by a very, very long way. We were dealing with a very diverse\u2014vibrant, but diverse\u2014city where I, and I am sure I am no different from many in this Chamber, have family and wh\u0101nau in the North Shore, out in the east, out in the south, and out in the west. It was a privilege to see the unique characteristics of all those parts of the city, and one of the standouts for me was seeing how different the characters of various communities could be in the city and isthmus of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EIn my remaining time I want to talk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef4fd4f05e5e41c6845ea021ef7520f1\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Say something interesting!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022180bfd74d56848bfb6c32b67508a5b8f\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It is bound to be as interesting as Phil Twyford\u2019s speech. The \u201Cworm\u201D went down very quickly after Phil Twyford started talking. The journalists all went to get a cup of coffee and they have come back to hear me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI want to talk just a bit about the single transferable vote (STV), which Phil Twyford and Keith Locke mentioned. The Nats listened, and John Boscawen for ACT listened very carefully and had an open mind, on the issue of STV versus other electoral systems. But it was very clear in the end that when we are introducing a new system of governance on the scale that we are\u2014a united new form of governance with one mayor, one council, and the new beefed-up local board structure that Aucklanders will have to come to grips with; I am sure they will\u2014it was a step too far to add the additional complexity of an STV system. It would be confusing. STV operates in some of the local elections in Tauranga, where I live, and I do not mind admitting that I cannot work it out. Maybe Phil Twyford can work STV out\u2014he is a smart guy; he is a Fabian socialist, I think they say\u2014but it is a system of some complexity and we were already introducing a new system for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EOne of the more interesting submissions we heard, in Papakura, related to Papakura\u2019s different electoral systems. Under a mayoral system that is not STV, there is a 2 percent wasted vote. It was staggering to me that for the district health board election under STV the figure for wasted votes, from recollection, was 18 percent. We do not want to see wasted votes in the city of Auckland; we want them all to count, whether people are voting for \u201CBanksie\u201D, Mike Lee, Len Brown from \u201CBrowntown\u201D, or whomever it may be on the council and on their local boards. We were open-minded about that submission. We thought long and hard about it, but, in the end, I think we came to the right decision in relation to STV and the electoral system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022100f047f54c44ffdbf19caa07f9f15d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022100f047f54c44ffdbf19caa07f9f15d7\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I am in a rather unusual position, because I became involved in this issue halfway through a by-election. The by-election focused on two key issues. One was the Waterview Connection tunnel, or non-tunnel. Unfortunately, on Friday the Government announced that a motorway will be constructed right through the middle of a community in my electorate, splitting Waterview in two. The other issue was the super-city. The overwhelming number of people whom I spoke to\u2014and I moved around and spoke to probably 4,000 or 5,000 people\u2014felt that they had not been listened to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EIt is that issue that I will speak on this evening: the process by which the super-city has gone ahead. Most people would agree that Auckland needs a unitary city, and a city that can be world class. I think we agree on that point. There are many advantages in having a city that is joined up and much more coherent than it has been. But there is a way of doing that, and that way has not been followed in this instance. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance heard 3,500 petitioners and submitters, and $4 million was spend on the consultation process. When the National Government came in, it more or less put the report to one side within a few days of it being made public. Instead, the Government put out its own version of events and of the way that it saw Auckland proceeding. Most of the people in my area received a pamphlet. An entire report was reduced to a pamphlet that bore no real resemblance to the report of the royal commission. People were discouraged. They had been told that they could be heard before a select committee. But in this pamphlet they were told that there would be 20 to 30 local boards, that those boards would be toothless, and that they would be largely responsible for dog control, noise control, and graffiti. There would be a number of at-large councillors, which meant that only the rich could afford to campaign, and M\u0101ori seats were to be largely rejected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI sat in on only a small number of the hearings of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, but I believe, as my colleagues have said, that it was a good select committee process and that it was well chaired. The great weight of the submissions to the select committee wanted to reverse many of the Government\u2019s actions and change the way that it was moving forward. There has been change. The select committee process has created a very different bill from the one we started with, but it is still largely insufficient, and that is because of the process. This was a process that was done under urgency, with very little consultation. It was a rushed process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELabour demanded a referendum. It is curious that there has been a push by the Minister of Local Government to have referenda on issues of great importance, yet he did not want or expect any referendum on the very issue of whether Auckland should become a super-city. People did not get a real say. The royal commission was ignored and the select committee process left a lot of disquiet and a lot of things unchanged. M\u0101ori representation, as we have heard, was rejected. That was rejected before the select committee even came out with its findings. The number of councillors was increased, but we need still more. The assets that Aucklanders overwhelmingly feel are at risk still need protection. Monitoring and accountability, the very key aspects of this bill, still need to be focused on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe were looking for strategic leadership, but what we have is the gutted proposal that was first put forward, and it has been further nobbled in a process that has been ad hoc and haphazard. It has been a shemozzle, as David Shand reported, right up to the very end. And now, at the eleventh hour of this bill\u2019s progress, we find that Rodney, which was out, is now in. But what about Franklin? Half of Franklin still remains out. My advice to the people of Franklin is to keep pestering this Government, because if they make enough noise, then their area will be incorporated and they will be involved as well. This Government is not following any strategy. It is simply lifting up its finger and feeling which way the wind blows. That is the process that has been followed on this occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELabour has put forward a number of amendments. Those amendments will be tabled over the course of the next few hours. I hope very sincerely, on behalf of all Aucklanders, that this Government will listen to those amendments. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u0022625f2ccc0e654c8aa952b2baa5444bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022625f2ccc0e654c8aa952b2baa5444bb1\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E What the heck was that speech all about? All I have learnt from that speech from David Shearer is that Labour has never had a policy on Auckland regional governance. What we have heard today is that Labour members want to have a referendum on this issue. Well, that is news to me. I am pretty sure that it is news to Phil Twyford, as well. The member David Shearer said that the Government was not listening, and now he has said that the Government is listening too much. I think that pretty much sums up the Labour Party\u2019s approach to Auckland governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EFor those members it has just been a political football. They have not come to the table with anything constructive at all. They have said that there is something wrong with everything that the Government has done. They were against the super-city, then they are for it, and now, tonight, we hear that they want a referendum. The fact is they are not interested in getting Auckland moving. But I tell members that Mr Shearer and Mr Twyford had better get with the programme, because the Labour Party candidate Len Brown has already declared, yet members of the parliamentary Labour Party are saying that they are not sure whether they even want this reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EWe have to look at why we are having this reform and why we need a unitary authority. The reason is that Auckland governance across the region has not worked for many, many years. It needs an assertive Government and an assertive Minister of Local Government to take it by the scruff of the neck and to turn Auckland into the fantastic, world-class city that this country needs and the people of Auckland deserve. I can tell members that if we had left it to that mob over there, we would not have a decision. We would not have anything happening in time for the local government elections in 2010. There would be no progress. There would be no plan for infrastructure across Auckland. There would be no working together as a city to solve the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn fact, what did Phil Twyford say about this? Phil said: \u201CThere was a feeling for quite a long time that the city wasn\u2019t working properly, with traffic problems, crappy infrastructure\u201D\u2014excuse me\u2014\u201Cand a downtown that looked like a bombsite. There was a lot of grumpiness about that. I think our Government was very late in coming to the party and doing something about that.\u201D All we can tell from this is that Labour members are all over the paddock. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIf there was another thing that Phil Goff should have added to his long list of apologies on Sunday, then I think it should have been an apology to the people of Auckland for the lack of leadership, the indecisiveness, and for not having a plan. Thank goodness that we have Rodney Hide and John Carter, who have put together a workable plan. They have listened to the people of Auckland. They have listened to the people of Rodney. Those people know that this super-city will be a winner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe problem with the Labour Party is that it will go with whatever the polls show. Those members started off thinking that this would be the issue that would bring down the Government. Then they found that Aucklanders want a unitary authority. They want to get the city going. They want this, and it is a good plan. This Government supports it, that lot over there do not. Aucklanders will not forget that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3b5504ea9894603bf88661a4413eb9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3b5504ea9894603bf88661a4413eb9c\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think that Aucklanders, far from wanting this local council restructuring as the previous speaker Dr Coleman said, will be disillusioned. When people see behind the spin and realise what is being set up in terms of the Auckland Council they will be utterly disillusioned. The people who are elected to the funny little impotent local boards with four to nine members\u2014which, I note from the bill, are not even given the status of a local authority; they are unincorporated societies\u2014will be very frustrated, and I think the people of Auckland will be extremely frustrated when they realise what is happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe mayors of Auckland, who have actually taken the time to read this bill, have reached that conclusion themselves. The Mayor of North Shore said that Aucklanders will realise that \u201Cbehind all the government spin and double-speak\u201D all they have got is \u201Can all powerful super Auckland Council, a super Mayor with even more power than before, 20 to 30 completely powerless local boards with no statutory powers or resources in their own right, and no place for Maori at the table.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec80cdcfe244c4ea2bdd460f6afbff2\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Sue, you\u2019ve got it so wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb5bdf4619d4ffb83a620ed709c5df2\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The mayor went on to talk about the community backlash that will occur once people recognise that the best that these local boards can do is advocate their case to the local council, or try to plead their case for inclusion in the next local government plan. John Carter is telling me I have got it all wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c97d1b5d8474241bfce1659c3292626\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: You have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e70996e4f5c4160a9f0428049ec7571\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, perhaps he would like to turn to clause 13D and look at the critical principles for how we allocate the decision-making responsibilities of the Auckland Council. The bill holds out the prospect that the local boards will be given some delegated responsibilities, but then subclause (2)(b) states unless \u201C(i) the impact of the decision will extend beyond a single local board area;\u201D. Well, what decision will not? It goes on: \u201Cor (ii) effective decision making will require alignment or integration with other decisions that are the responsibility of the governing body;\u201D. What decision by a local board, a local community, will not require alignment or integration, and therefore can be vetoed by the Auckland Council? Then it states, and this is the most waffly of all, unless \u201C(iii) the benefits of a consistent or co-ordinated approach across Auckland will outweigh the benefits of reflecting the diverse needs and preferences of the communities within each local board area.\u201D What waffle!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhat that provision is actually saying is that the Auckland Council has the power to veto any decision that is made by any local board. The local boards will be completely subservient to the all-powerful Auckland Council. They will have no staff of their own and no resources of their own. The Auckland Council will hold the purse strings and will allocate some money, provided that\u2014and this is spelt out\u2014every other local board gets the same amount. When we actually look behind all the spin we see that all that the local boards are able to do, all that they are responsible for, is to identify and communicate the interests and preferences of the people to the Auckland Council, propose some local by-laws\u2014which the Auckland Council has to agree to\u2014and a few non-regulatory activities that are allocated by the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAucklanders should be under no illusion: if John Banks is the Mayor of Auckland, he will have extraordinary, almost Draconian, powers. He will appoint his inner cabal. He will be able to appoint all the chairs, the deputy chairs, and the deputy mayor. He can appoint himself the chair of any committee he likes. These are powers, I might say, that no other mayor in New Zealand has. He sets the agenda. He decides the council plans and the budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHe decides what processes and mechanisms the Auckland Council will have to engage with the people of Auckland. What does that mean? He will decide\u2014he and he alone, the bill says\u2014how the Auckland Council will consult Aucklanders. What say the mayor decides he cannot be bothered consulting Aucklanders, particularly if we have some contentious legislation or contentious issues, such as selling off assets? That, of course, is the hidden agenda behind all of this. He will get to decide how the council will consult the people of Auckland. The Local Government Act contains specific consultation mechanisms. Does paragraph (aa) of clause 9(3) override the provisions in the Local Government Act that local councils are required to follow? The Act spells out quite clearly consultation mechanisms for major things such as the sell-off of assets. I am assuming that this bill means that the mayor can ignore those provisions, which every other council is required to follow, just as this Government has ignored the provisions of the Local Government Act in ramming through this major change without requiring a poll.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe people of Auckland need to look at these provisions and understand the implications of them. I speak not just as someone who has been peering at this legislation, looking at all the clauses, and realising we could drive a tractor through them; I also speak as a former city councillor. I know from my 8 years on the Wellington City Council that once the mayor gets to control the inner cabal, the chairs, and the councillors, he will\u2014and I say \u201Che\u201D advisedly; it will be a \u201Che\u201D, it seems\u2014appoint them all and they will be beholden to him. He will able to set the agenda for Auckland and ram it through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EHe will also be able to veto virtually any decision that any local board has made. There will be 20 to 30 of these tiny local boards, with four to nine members. They will be so fragmented, so tiny, so impotent that they will not be able to represent the grassroots interests of local communities. Local government works best if it represents the grassroots, if it represents local communities. Well, I can tell members that this set-up is far from being grassroots. The council will be huge. It will probably be the largest organisation in New Zealand. Certainly, I believe that it will have more assets\u2014$28 billion worth\u2014than any other organisation in New Zealand. It will have up to 6,000 staff\u2014that is, if Rodney Hide and John Banks do not get rid of most of the staff. It will be a huge organisation, and, really, it will be a form of state government; it is not local government\u2014apart from these funny local boards, which are just community boards with a different name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca7da3d43bd443c6813507ab4158f238\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: No, they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f366f4e5b124459b9af373f4d2686e4\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I can hear a National member saying: \u201COh no, they\u2019re not.\u201D The New Zealand Herald has pointed out that the commentary is full of the distinct roles that the boards will have. It states that there will not be a hierarchical relationship, that the local boards will have distinct roles. But, the New Zealand Herald said, anyone looking for the distinct roles in this bill will look in vain. That is what the mayors of Auckland have said. The Mayor of Waitakere, Bob Harvey, said that the local boards will be so subservient and impotent that they will be like sewing circles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIf people actually take the time to go through the bill, they will find that, basically, the Auckland Council of 20 councillors will be the governing body\u2014it has even been given that name. The local boards will have the ability to consult their communities, but, beyond that, they will be absolutely subservient. They will not have any staff of their own. They are not able to own property. They are completely creatures of the Auckland Council. Sure, they can advocate in their communities, but anything they decide can be vetoed by the Auckland Council. I think that when Aucklanders realise that, they will be bitterly disappointed. They have heard all the spin. The Government has said it has listened to the people of Auckland, made changes, and given the boards powers. But if people actually analyse the bill, they will realise that, behind all the spin and the double-speak, the local boards are just as subservient as they always were. I can see John Carter trying to leap to his feet; he has done a marvellous job of spinning this, of saying that the Government has given the boards powers, but the truth is it has not given them any powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5aca78480da4c90b915ae32c446943e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5aca78480da4c90b915ae32c446943e\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I really, really need to respond to that member, Sue Kedgley. The first question I have to ask myself is why she does not speak to the person in the bench next to her, Sue Bradford, who actually supports exactly what the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee did, along with the Labour Party, and along with every other party represented on the select committee. We worked hard. I hope she is listening, and not listening to Phil Twyford, who supports what we did in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill in this regard. I draw to Sue Kedgley\u2019s attention the fact that the select committee was unanimous. I really need Sue Kedgley to listen to this; I wonder whether Phil Twyford will allow Sue Kedgley to listen to me. The fact is that the whole select committee unanimously backed this part of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me explain to Sue Kedgley and to some others who did not listen\u2014such as Andrew Williams, Bob Harvey, and a journalist called Bernard Orsman, who just did not want to understand what is happening\u2014how this works. The Auckland Transition Agency has the responsibility, come 2010\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed66d519346d42d48ef0c2c38428ec65\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The member Phil Twyford cannot stand in the aisle and conduct a discussion. There is another way for him to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c2583ef428848a29f8e541403ba92be\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for interrupting. You can interrupt me any time you wish. The fact is that in 2010 or before, once the Local Government Commission has made its decision about how many boards there are and where they are, it will look at those functions. I say to Sue Kedgley that Waiheke Island is a classic example, or Papakura, if it gets to be a board. The Auckland Transition Agency will then look and ask what the current functions of the Papakura District Council are, and what current functions the Auckland City Council carries out on behalf of Waiheke Island. These are the sorts of questions that Sue Bradford asked in the select committee, because she wanted to be convinced that the legislation was right. These are the very questions she asked. The answer she got was that the Auckland Transition Agency will look and say what Auckland City Council currently carries out for Waiheke Island, or Papakura, or wherever it might be\u2014for example, Devonport. The local boards will be allocated those functions by the Auckland Transition Agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAlongside those functions, the boards will be given a budget to cover the cost. Sue Bradford, the Labour Party, the National Party, and the M\u0101ori Party all questioned to make sure we got that right. So the fact is that those functions will be allocated to the local boards. Once they are allocated, they become the domain of the local boards; the unitary authority cannot take those functions off them. For example, if there happens to be a Manukau local board, in whatever form, and one of the things that is allocated to the Manukau local board is its swimming pool, and the fact that it is a free swimming pool, it will become the domain of the Manukau local board. I tell Ross Robertson to listen, because he really needs to understand this. It is really important. His party supported this, so he needs to understand why it did. George Hawkins, Su\u2019a William Sio, and Phil Twyford supported it. The whole committee supported it. The Manukau local board gets allocated the responsibility of looking after the Manukau swimming pool. It gets funds to allocate it. The local board then makes the decision as to whether access is free. The local board makes that decision, not the unitary authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAs things progress, the unitary authority carries out the regional functions that it is responsible for, and if, for some reason, the regional authority or the unitary authority decides that it should have a say in what happens, then it has to be by negotiation. If the local boards say that they will carry on doing their swimming pool, or those functions that Waiheke Island has been allocated, or if the Papakura local board says it will carry on doing what it is doing, then the unitary authority cannot interfere with those responsibilities and functions. That is what Sue Kedgley\u2019s colleague sitting next to her, Sue Bradford, ensured happened. Sue Kedgley needs to read the whole bill. She can wave it round as much as she likes. I will take my jacket off and wave that round\u2014it means about as much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a81b596d7f2b4479a790cf00dfcd6976\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227719a8aef944bac9f96fb68a0e6717f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am trying to explain to the member how the bill actually works. In fact, if it helps I will take a lot more off and wave everything round, and see if that helps her understand what is going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe point is that we have made very clear steps to ensure that the local functions that the local boards want to have are granted to them, that those functions are funded, and that the boards have the ability to carry them out. Regardless of what the member thinks she is reading here, I say she should talk to her bench mate, Sue Bradford. She will tell her; she questioned the officials time and time again. I tell Sue Kedgley to talk to the Labour members; they questioned the officials time and time again. So did we, on this side of the Chamber, to make sure that we got it right. When we came to vote on the provision, it was unanimous, because we know that we are empowering the boards, and that is what the people of Auckland wanted to happen. That is what the Minister of Local Government said would happen. That is what I said would happen. That is what the select committee said would happen. That is what will happen. The people in the communities will have their voice. The people in the communities will have their local democracy. The people will have their heart. That is what they asked for and that is what they will get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say to Sue Kedgley that I understand that if one reads this bill by itself, one could misinterpret it. I understand why Bernard Orsman actually misunderstood it. Having read it for 10 minutes\u2014I know he is a clever journalist\u2014he suddenly realised that the Labour Party had got it wrong, the Green Party had got it wrong, the M\u0101ori Party had got it wrong, the National Party had got it wrong, the select committee had got it wrong, the officials had got it wrong\u2014[Interruption] No, Bernard Orsman was right, just the same as Sue Kedgley says she is right! Funnily enough, everyone who had been working on it for all those months\u2014all the select committee members, the Labour Party, the Green Party, the M\u0101ori Party, and the National Party\u2014had apparently got it wrong, according to Bernard and Sue Kedgley. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say to her, to Bernard, and to those others to please understand that we will be allocating functions to the local boards; the Auckland Transition Agency will do that. They will then allocate the funding to allow them to carry those functions out. The unitary authority cannot interfere with those responsibilities unless it is by agreement. If it tries to interfere it actually goes against the principles of the bill, which are most important, and it can be taken to court. But I tell the member that in order to ensure that a whole lot of litigation and ratepayer money will not be wasted, we will in the third bill put in a disputes tribunal that will rule on those instances. That is what the member\u2019s colleague on her bench asked to make sure would happen. She was assured that it would happen. I know it will happen. The Minister said it would happen. I will make it happen. The select committee will make it happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI ask members in this Chamber to please understand that these boards are empowered. They are not weak-kneed. They will have the right and the responsibility to represent their communities, because that is what Aucklanders have wanted. That is what we will give them. The most important thing we could do, while we had the regional structure in place to look after those regional issues, was to ensure that the heart of Auckland was looked after, retained, and allowed to get on with its life. We have made sure that that has happened. I tell the member not to misread the bill, and not to misrepresent what is happening, because we have given the boards more power than they ever thought they were going to get. They will do such a good job for their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe member can wave the bill round as much as she likes and I will wave anything she wants me to wave at her. But I tell Sue Kedgley to understand and to talk to her bench mate, because it was unanimous at the committee. There is more work to be done, but by the time those local boards get out there they will do everything their community wants them to do. They will have the money to do it, and they will have the muscle to do it. That is what this bill is all about. That is what the select committee has brought back to this Committee. It is what Aucklanders wanted, and it is what they will get. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002227d76c3fd7d34298858b1fce52ef9e38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227d76c3fd7d34298858b1fce52ef9e38\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is my first opportunity to speak on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill tonight. I have to say that I am concerned that we are here in the Chamber and are once again rushing through important legislation under urgency. The process the Government is adopting is becoming a little bit of a bad habit. We are seeing this, week after week. Here we are making major constitutional changes for New Zealand\u2019s largest city, in which a third of New Zealand\u2019s population lives, and again these issues are being progressed under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to respond to the honourable member Jonathan Coleman. He may think that people on the North Shore do not care about this issue, but actually they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3f4948b3a884b97b1a79fa4364ca1f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: They do, and they\u2019re in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eac84cc370e4598860c6cd2c424fbed\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: They are not in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9ac535d0964a30b164247921ea9a3f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: How would you know, Darien?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a936a0558c4c77bfbc3e50d81af7a5\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Because I have been to the meetings. That member has not been to the meetings. He was not at the select committee to hear the submissions from the North Shore. He has not been talking to people on the North Shore and he is not listening. Is that member saying he disagrees with the Mayor of the North Shore? Is that what the member is saying? The mayor is saying about the process that after all the community effort to have their voices heard, and all the Government\u2019s contrived flip-flops, back-downs, and Cabinet-level tantrums, we are essentially back to square one. I would be interested to hear a response from that member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI think what we are seeing again is that National thinks it is fine to ride roughshod over the people of Auckland. National thinks it is fine to pretend that a process has been undergone, and then to override that process by making decisions even before the select committee outcome is known. I have to say that Aucklanders have been appallingly let down. Firstly, National took away from the people of Auckland the right to vote on the proposals in a referendum under the Local Government Act. Then National set up the rushed process of a 3-week select committee in order for it to make decisions, and then at the same time made decisions in the back room with the ACT Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI saw submitter after submitter being given just 5 minutes to say what they thought. The submitters were important community groups from the North Shore, west Auckland, and right across Auckland. I know that each of them had spent a lot of time preparing their submissions. I know they had spent hours and hours getting ready to present their submissions, only to be rushed through when they arrived at the select committee. They were given 5 minutes to say what they thought and then there were a couple of questions from the chair. It is just not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat we have also seen is that National thinks it is fine to ignore the people of Hunua and, by and large, the people of Rodney District until they have created enough stink\u2014a huge stink\u2014to make National nervous. Then we see Mr Key\u2014that nice, pragmatic Mr Key, that nervous Mr Key\u2014doing yet another U-turn on Rodney District. I am pleased he has done a U-turn on Rodney District. I am pleased for the people of Rodney that that has happened. But what is obvious about that U-turn is that National and John Key care more about what Rodney Hide says than about what the people of Auckland say about the M\u0101ori seats. The M\u0101ori Party\u2019s questions this afternoon about the difference between caving in to the demands of the people of Rodney District\u2014and I support their demands\u2014and the demands of the people who marched in the street and who went on the h\u012Bkoi to demand that there be M\u0101ori representation, are really interesting. I do not understand the difference, and I would like to hear from the Minister what the difference is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat is also obvious is that National does not care about the workers in the process and in the transition\u2014those workers whom Nikki Kaye says she cares about, whose jobs are in jeopardy. The uncertainty must be awful for them. Let us imagine what it is like for those people in the process at the moment, not knowing whether they will have a job in October 2010. Yet National expects those workers to keep working, to contribute, to do the things in the community they do very well, and to keep being positive. That is completely unrealistic. I do not know how the National Government thinks things will keep ticking over while those staff wait to hear whether they have been sacked. How on earth does the National Government imagine that those community organisations will survive? The chair of the select committee, John Carter, praised those community organisations every time they came before the select committee. He praised them. He told them that he appreciated them so much and that he had not realised how much the community organisations did in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002280edeb881ee64364bef46397f2d0c780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280edeb881ee64364bef46397f2d0c780\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about the local boards, but let us go back to the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb73e18203c2424ca8721835281c5fbc\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s go back to M\u0101ori seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214af8bdc7e2a4198b47195afea353ef9\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, let us go back to the start. When the member can pronounce \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D correctly, I will start listening to her. We may as well start at the beginning. There is no such thing as \u201CMari\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to talk about local boards and about how, throughout the process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d42877538af47f6b691da647ca2a149\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ffbb5e20f947c390cd07cb1af489a3\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That is all right. Members can laugh at the mispronunciation of the indigenous language. That is all right; I am cool with that. I am sure they are cool with it as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWhat we heard from the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and from the people who came before that committee related to the real issues of democracy and local power. Some of the other things the Labour members talked about incessantly were power and democracy, and what local boards could look after. There was the obvious issue for Su\u2019a William Sio about swimming pools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7629f4973e0469eb0083a1236058bd4\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Did you pronounce that properly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7e19bf229d49c4a97f3e7366d75a18\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I am from \u014Ctara. I was born and bred in \u014Ctara. The member can prattle on about where she was born and bred, but the fact of the matter is that local boards will not only have power to make decisions but also money to spend on local issues. There will be a requirement for local boards to create local plans, for goodness\u2019 sake! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWhen one looks at most things in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, one sees that not a lot of it can be argued against by Labour members. In fact, one of the things I have noticed in this debate is that when things get pretty hot and a wee bit aggressive from the Labour members, the only thing they can talk about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d84c8420704f55b27ebc346de37f03\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: When we get passionate, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d864c7fe3fd473baa7ae2e50fea1f34\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The only thing they can get passionate about is the M\u0101ori seats. For them it is not about local democracy any more, or about moving the city forward. It is not about taking 1.4 million people on a journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227908325c1f2d473b89da7a097cd0ea90\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What do you think of Rodney?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229faa24fd44824302afc0eaa01de8a3ca\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: What do I think of Rodney? I will tell members what I think of Rodney: it is a nice place to live, and it should be part of the super-city. As for Franklin, I am sure that the Local Government Commission will decide, in its wisdom, how things should pan out when we are through with our business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut members should make no mistake; although we may get upset about M\u0101ori seats and about who is in and who is not, the real issue is local power. It is about power in local people\u2019s hands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec15991cb14e4074a411d87ac6018d76\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: As long as they\u2019re members of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ec64d2a2c143718966944689783a36\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter whether they are in the National Party. This is the unfortunate Fabian rant that we get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fe81fbf1604059828ee001d5ce4d20\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t know you knew Fabian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c65f221e861404cb4c3be8c6aeebc12\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I know about Fabians, all right. Just talk to Phil Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f97312ac0bf4617aedbf970d6db6b98\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Name one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6df4583fb26428383a6b5083bcce96f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I will name one: Phil Twyford. There we go. He is the chairman of the Fabians. This is all about local democracy, about people making decisions. [Interruption] \u201CSpot\u201D, who is trying to get the call, should sit down. [Interruption] Well, we would not know anyway. This is about local decisions. It is about local people making local decisions about local issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a77c44d5284b908ed610db38c45b11\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf92ad6f77204526956075a1ba666a2d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Members opposite say \u201CYeah, right!\u201D. Well, look at the power of the local boards. They can make plans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd730aeb5f57480aac62b79ed0a86b5f\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got no money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262914d2a04ad4267814a7d1da8a76c42\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they have money. Of course they have money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f178913fab324a9a87d325b9dae3c743\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got no staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930c7f20261f45eb8f5d4671efc480b0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member says \u201CThey\u2019ve got no staff.\u201D For goodness\u2019 sake! These are the Labour Party members. They want to create employment, all right; they want to create employment for their no-hoper mates in the left-wing Labour Party communities out in the suburbs, where they think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463fdbc65a3d434290426b258ee4c3ac\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Divide and rule!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd403104fb4411b84f2b64ed815d88b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: For goodness\u2019 sake! The country listened to that twaddle for 9 years, and it decided that it was time to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208e7ba93aa7482d8f973df1cc50ae93\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Longer than you\u2019ll last!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229119dd8545cc45d9bbff6fe7fce46adc\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, 3 years, 6 years, or 9 years\u2014this is all about taking a city on a journey\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc46f581b79d42478801da32d1753995\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Backwards! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bc1c67ed6994779920d0ecfa869fa6e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, not backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1c84009d33f439c83d6a5bb5d5e8402\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Rightwards!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c89fc40b724d79bb8bc9e45e71c135\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not backwards, and not right, and not left. It is about taking Auckland on a journey. It is a city that needs to go forward as one, not as four, five, or six different entities. This is about taking 1.25 million people on a journey together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281404636311e48c1b158998b3ad830e5\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What about the M\u0101ori seats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9ecd0c5a07b4bc99078fd6d82e49ced\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: There they go! M\u0101ori seats do not come into it. It is all about taking a journey to where the city needs to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c256aec83fe7421c85d1c79542801e95\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Into the deep blue night!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250d15c67365d4651af5565adba876498\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Wherever it is, we need to make sure that in respect of the infrastructure and the power base the people of Auckland get a foot in and are listened to. This is about 1.25 million people taking a journey together, and making sure that it is the best city\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022258190f1bf354fa2a0c0bdb1d67e6e5a\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What do you call those things that jump off cliffs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f8d63927f8e43c7a7bb82a2f737c16e\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That member is a silly woman. This is about a journey that needs to take place. It is about taking the whole of the city on that journey. We cannot do that with four cities. We cannot do that with Mayor Williams, Mayor Brown, Mayor Harvey, and Mayor Banks, all worried about their own little patches. I am very proud to say that what the Government and the select committee have done is basically to agree with 90 percent of what the submitters had to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3433876441443b1b9b21f3126663cdd\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I doubt that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec4c02e7e124cc6a2d42cf4c22b4bb0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, absolutely. The big drawcard for the left was the issue of the M\u0101ori seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220880e258e1454d62a6939508377e4a5a\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It should be for you, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6ea10d679dd4ab690ac3637bdfcf31c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we lost that one. Ninety percent of the issues that were canvassed in front of the select committee have been dealt with in a manner that shows they were listened to. Members have made a big issue out of the M\u0101ori seats, and maybe we should. But at the end of the day that plays a small part in the game of this new Auckland super-city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThat is what I am trying to get at: 90 percent has been agreed to, not only by National but also by Labour, and by most of the people who came to give their submissions in front of the select committee. We all know that; we were all there. No one can tell me that there were all these issues, and that the submitters had a whole range of issues that they wanted dealt with. I repeat that 90 percent of the issues that were canvassed by those people who made submissions have been taken account of in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00222eff57aa5b0d4692b028f0805f6ceed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222eff57aa5b0d4692b028f0805f6ceed9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E This is my first opportunity to take part in this debate, and I appreciate the opportunity. Let us dispose of some straw-men arguments that were raised by the member who has just resumed his seat. I do not blame him for having a go, because we all know he is feeling pretty conflicted at the moment in terms of his loyalty to his party and his loyalty to his people. That party has\u2014what is the technical phrase\u2014\u201Ccrapped\u201D all over M\u0101oridom with this decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca49d7f92cd948308c0e082c3c8ee550\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a121dd9d60049d7a23ee287774bd0c1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It has not honoured M\u0101oridom with its decisions on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe agree that we need to take Auckland forward, and we also agree that we need stronger regional integration, and that Auckland needed changes. No one is arguing about that. That is why we set up the royal commission in the first place. Let us try a little game of join the dots. It does not irk Aucklanders that the Government did not consult them; it irks them that the Government pretended to consult and then did not. This process has been marked by the hallmark of this Government, which is sham consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ECan anyone tell me who it was who said: \u201CI want to reiterate that the Government approaches this process with an open mind. We are listening to Aucklanders.\u201D? Who could that have been? Was it the same person who chaired the Cabinet committee that dumped the royal commission report virtually within days of it hitting the table, and then put a 20-page micro-document called \u201CMaking Auckland Bluer\u201D out in its place? That was no consultation. The Government did not come back to Aucklanders. It did not ask people what they thought of the royal commission\u2019s $2 million, 18-month effort. The Government did not consult on it; it just made a decision. Then it threw the House into urgency. Join the dots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe next step under urgency was to repeal the existing territorial authorities. That was the equivalent of\u2014I ask members to remember\u2014the Battle of Hastings, when William the Conqueror crossed the British Channel. He drilled holes in the boats, so there was no turning back. Well, that was what this Government\u2019s action was about. It was about making sure there was no turning back. There was no consultation and no select committee process. There was a truncated debate in the House and that was it. Game over! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMy city, Waitakere City, was 20 years in the making\u2014the eco-city. It is a proud place, turning West Auckland from \u201CBoganville\u201D, with no \u201Cu\u201D, to a place where we care about the arts, smart business, and communities. Westies were proud of Waitakere. I see the former Deputy Mayor of Manukau City here, and I know how deeply he felt about the extinguishment of the city that he had worked to build, without so much as a consultation. What about the referendum provision in the Local Government Act? Not conducting a referendum was the largest constitutional change in local government in New Zealand\u2019s history. That Government\u2014with its sham consultation\u2014set aside the binding referendum provisions of the Local Government Act, which meant Aucklanders did not get a say, like the law said they should. The Government repealed the law in the same bill that it rammed through Parliament in urgency. Join the dots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat action is the hallmark of the new National Government, that middle-of-the-road Government with the friendly face. Do we know the one? It was going to do everything Labour did that people liked, but with a new friendly team. Yeah, right! This is Muldoonism back with a smile. Join the dots. This was not just a lack of consultation; this was the veneer, the charade, of consultation. That was the first bill. Then the Government would set up a rushed 3-week select committee process. Aucklanders, in their hundreds, submitted. It was in their thousands actually, but hundreds, nearly a thousand, took the time to travel to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee to make their submissions in person. They got 5 minutes\u2014sometimes 10 minutes\u2014and then they were shuffled on and shut down. After they had done it the frustration showed from people who bothered to make submissions. They said it was sometimes worse than not being there at all. I give credit to members on both sides of the House who endured the process, because it was pretty gruelling. It was not that there was no consultation; it was that it was a sham consultation. Meanwhile in the background, in the Cabinet room, was the same Cabinet committee that had received the papers on the first bill and made its decision within days of the royal commission reporting. The same Cabinet committee was making the big calls even before the select committee had reported back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere was also the special subcommittee on M\u0101ori representation. Mr Key knew well enough that if 10,000 people were marching in a h\u012Bkoi in central Auckland\u2014and here we and the M\u0101ori Party are at one\u2014he had to listen. But instead of real consultation\u2014join the dots\u2014he set up sham consultation. He set up a special subcommittee, and the previous speaker served on it. It went around asking people what they thought, which was a good thing, except the decision was made by the Prime Minister before they had even had the chance to see the report. What could be more hypocritical than going out asking people what they think and then making the decision before the result had even been heard? Ten thousand people marched in the h\u012Bkoi from all over Auckland. So the Government set up a special subcommittee and made the decision before it had even reported. That is no consultation; that is worse\u2014join the dots\u2014that is sham consultation. It is what this Government is getting known for\u2014Muldoonism with a smile. Sham consultation! Shame on the Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b05791e1c4f451e82d3156b48ffbca6\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Shame sham!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbf9333dd9b4662b2d953d06709b685\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Shame sham! It is the same sham, the shame sham. Members should say that quickly a hundred times and see how they get on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWith regard to M\u0101ori representation, nothing was set in stone, the Government said. Oh, was it not? Why, then, was the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide\u2014who I hope will take the next call to defend his reputation\u2014so brave as to roar in public that he would resign if the principles for which the ACT Party stood were not listened to in the Cabinet room? Why did he say that? I bet Mr Hide a good bottle of wine that he already knew the way it would come out. I challenge the Minister to take a call and tell us otherwise, if it is otherwise. But, no, I do not think he wants to, even though he has the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221205672dfbe14ce596a8814ffa1e0264\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s looking ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce755eef955401887f0e48c110ff4de\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: He is looking \u201Ca shamed\u201D, and ashamed. It is the same sham, the same shame sham again. Members can say that quickly 50 times and join the dots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat about the Government\u2019s U-turn on boundaries? As if it did not have a bad enough reputation from all this shaming, it decided to drop half of Rodney District and half of Franklin District. It is pretty hard to lose half of Rodney District\u2014it is quite a big area. It is pretty hard to lose half of Pukekohe\u2014it is like drawing a line down the main street. Then the Government reversed its position on Rodney District, so no wonder Franklin District feels aggrieved, right? No wonder Franklin is feeling pretty annoyed, and that leaves the honourable member for Port Waikato\u2014or whatever it is now called\u2014Dr Paul Hutchison, roaring helplessly, bleating in the back paddock, and watching his political career washing out to sea from Port Waikato. It is washing down the Waikato; that is where it leaves him. He is up the famous creek without the proverbial paddle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill is not a case of no consultation; this is sham consultation. Join the dots\u2014this is Muldoonism with a smile. This is what the Government is now known for. Aucklanders will not forget it, and they will remind the Government in 2011 that 3 years was too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00228343d282bfba4d8c991381102528cef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228343d282bfba4d8c991381102528cef0\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, what a bitter, bitter rant that was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f04f1c604f046e380cd19b900d84e50\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t bitter!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2d0ebe326c47ebb0e7205187ce9c74\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: It was. I say to David Cunliffe that he should see his elected MP, Nikki Kaye, and have a chat with her. There was a lot of talk about the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee being a sham, but in actual fact I was a member of that committee, and I want to reassure the member that the process was not a sham. It was a genuine process. The chair, the Hon John Carter, made sure that every person who wanted to be heard was heard. People were heard and they were listened to. As a result, there have been significant changes to the original bill. They were heard, and that is the democratic process. I want to reassure members that that was the case. That member was not there, and he is not aware of it, I am sure, but a very genuine, democratic process was at work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe process basically started under the Labour Government. There was a problem with the governance of Auckland. It was not working, it was dysfunctional, there was turf fighting, and we needed to move forward. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance started the process, and we will finish it. We will finish it so that the new set-up will be ready for the local body elections next year. We are on track and we will get there. We are doing well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the local boards, because the changes in respect of the local boards are among the most significant changes that have occurred in this bill. They have a lot of powers. The committee went to all areas of Auckland\u2014we went to see the people; they did not come to us\u2014and the submitters we heard were very worried about losing their voice, their identity, and their representation. Well, the local boards will have real powers. I hope that when the people we saw read about the bill and read the commentary their fears will be allayed. The local boards are being made to listen to the community. They need to consult the community. They need to make a plan. They need to write up a plan. There are no ifs or buts about it; they have to listen to the community, because that is part of their job. The local boards are new entities. They are not the community boards that we have now. They are not the local councils that we have now. They are new entities altogether. This legislation gives them powers to go forward so that they can consult their communities and represent them. The people in those communities should feel no fear. They were very fearful, I must admit, and I was quite surprised how fearful and passionate they were. It made a deep impression upon me. But I am very confident that the local boards will do the right thing by them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThere was talk about having community councils instead of local boards. I am not sure of the detail and the arguments behind it, but I imagine that there would have been a lot of confusion between community councillors and city councillors. At the end of the day, the whole point of changing the term to \u201Ccommunity council\u201D was to give the job more status. Well, this legislation does give the job status. The new local board members, when they are elected, will have real status and real powers. They are legitimate and the legislation will back them. The local boards will have dedicated budgets to provide local services. They will have the money to front up and provide the services that the community needs. It is not lip service. The Auckland Council will need to have a funding policy so that it can fund the different local boards and devolve money to them in an appropriate way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI want to go down a bit of a sidetrack here and talk about the remuneration of the local board members. A paragraph in the commentary on the bill talks about it. A few submitters talked about the fact that the current community board members are paid a very modest amount of money to do what they do. It is almost voluntary work\u2014altruistic work. That means that the individuals who step up to do the job are people who have the time or the money to do it. It is a luxury. That prevents people who could do it and want to do it, but who do not have the time or the money, from stepping up. The committee had a discussion about it and we heard from the submitters. I will read out the paragraph in the commentary. Although the committee does not have any power to say what will happen, we have stated that \u201CWhile we recognise that we cannot set the remuneration levels of local board members, we urge the Remuneration Authority to give serious consideration to this issue. We consider that the remuneration provided to local board members must be sufficient to attract good-quality candidates and reflect adequately what the job involves.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea395a849fd6488d988860ca6e013c34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea395a849fd6488d988860ca6e013c34\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier Mr Tau Henare talked about \u201Ca journey\u201D. To continue on that analogy, the National Government has used the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8e9e89a8ae4c96a09ca9a6de843ef6\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: The journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b867d7e75a648be903d6b2b372faad0\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: The member talked about \u201Cthe journey\u201D. The National Government has used the term \u201Croadway to recovery\u201D as an analogy. If the Auckland Council structure is the vehicle to take the Auckland region forward, then we need a vehicle that can fit everybody in. If it is a canoe, then we need everybody to be paddling in the same direction. But we hear from the other side of the Chamber about a bicycle. How many people fit on a bicycle? One. I also heard the member for Tauranga say that the Government is listening. If it was really listening, then we would not be rushing this bill through under urgency. If it was really listening, we would not have dealt with the first Auckland local government reorganisation bill under urgency. That bill snuffed out the life of eight local territorial authorities. If it was really listening, it would have heard the voices of the thousands of Aucklanders who marched to downtown Auckland in support of M\u0101ori seats. If it was really listening, we would not be flip-flopping on Rodney boundaries at the eleventh hour. After all the community efforts to prepare submissions and to take time off work to speak to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, all we have from this Government is flip-flops, back-downs, and Cabinet-level tantrums. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIf the Government was listening, it would have heard the resounding voices of Aucklanders who are not happy that the Government is listening only to the Minister of Local Government\u2014who represents a party with less than 4 percent support from this nation, and who seems to have so much influence on this National Government\u2014and not to the voices of the rest of Aucklanders, who will be affected by the changes that are being brought about. The Mayor of North Shore says Rodney Hide\u2019s super-city is a \u201Ctime bomb set to explode grassroots democracy\u201D. Aucklanders were promised their big chance to have a say; Aucklanders were promised that they would be listened to, but the only person the National Government seems to be listening to is Mr Hide, the Minister of Local Government. Aucklanders have said, and members of the select committee will have heard, that that is not right. They have said it is not right that a member of a party that has such small support on a national level should have so much influence. They have likened it to the dog\u2019s tail wagging its head. I say to Aucklanders who are listening\u2014[Interruption] OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo what is happening? Significant change processes are now occurring on a number of fronts; I believe they will ultimately prove unsustainable. Franklin is split in two, with Waiuku in and Pukekohe out, and I have been told that if Franklin is split in two, then one side of a street will belong to the Auckland super-city and the other side will belong to the Waikato region. If people on the latter side of the street need resource consent they will have to travel an hour and a half to Hamilton to try to get that consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ERepresentation on the Auckland Council is undercooked: 20 councillors to represent 1.4 million people is a nonsense in the local government sense, especially with around 30 local community boards with subsidiary status to the council, including subsidiary status to the Auckland Transport Agency and to Watercare Services. The agency, in particular, will be a very powerful organisation. It will hold sway over the boards and, I suspect, the Auckland Council. I believe that the Government has replaced democracy with powerful bureaucratic institutions, and I cannot see an employee of the Auckland Transport Agency fully listening to the members of the M\u0101ngere local board on an issue of some roading maintenance on one of our local streets, without some ultimate political sanction from the council way down on Queen Street. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI have heard the Minister in the chair, Mr John Carter, say that the local boards have been given powers. That is right; we were at the select committee. The beauty of the select committee report is that to some extent it reflects what the community was saying. It includes a minority report from the Labour Party and it includes a minority report from the Green Party, but the difficult thing for most Aucklanders to accept is that although the report might reflect, to a large extent, what was submitted by them, it does not align with the ultimate bill that this Government has put forward. Ultimately, the local boards do not have those powers unless the Auckland Council grants them to them. There is no funding that is not dependent on what the council delivers. There is no staff, unless the Auckland Council says it is OK. We have not even decided what those boundaries are, other than what is already in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI come back to the issue of consultation. The word for consultation in Samoa is \u201Csoalaupule\u201D, which, if one were to translate it, literally means \u201Cto share authority\u201D or \u201Cto share power\u201D. There is an expectation from Aucklanders, when the Government says it is listening, that it is hearing what Aucklanders are saying. I do not believe that this Government has actually taken the time to listen to the words that have been said. It said it would listen\u2014that is good; that is part of consultation\u2014but then it went and did what it wanted to do in the first place. It has flip-flopped around because some of its major supporters were not happy. Actually, maybe they were not supporters; when I asked the Hon John Carter whether he was aware that the people who are most irate about this proposal were National\u2019s supporters, he said that they were not its supporters, but rather its members. They are National Party members who are not happy about the way that this Government is ramming through this process without giving due consultation to the public in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWhy is consultation important? It is important because these are significant changes. The people of Auckland have rights under the Local Government Act, and they were not given the opportunity to use those rights. They were not listened to. They have not been listened to and the only person the National Government seems to be listening to is Mr Hide. I think the members of the public are now wondering why the Government is listening only to Mr Hide and not to the people of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe Government wants to listen to him, anyway. Mr Hide has been open about it: he wants to gut Auckland governance. He wants to sell off the assets that belong to the people of Auckland. The National Government is in agreement with that. Mr Hide does not want any M\u0101ori representation. He does not believe in being inclusive. He actually sees a small minority being able to govern the Auckland region. The National Government agrees with that, but it has stayed away from it and allowed Mr Hide to get all the blame. Mr Hide does not have anything to say about that, because whether we like it or not, for the ACT Party\u2014a minority party with less than 4 percent support from throughout this nation\u2014any publicity is important. Mr Key and the National Government are staying away from all of that blame. The blame is on Mr Hide, but the real culprit behind this is the National Government, which is egging him on and allowing him free rein to gut local government in Auckland and not listen to the public, even though the Government uses those words. They are hollow words. Aucklanders are listening to this debate, and they know they are hollow words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELast week there was a newspaper article; many members would have seen it. There was a picture of Mr Hide in an article in a suburban newspaper. The picture shows Mr Hide with his hand extended. That picture reflects how the general community feels about this legislation: it is gutting democracy and it is undemocratic. Because the Government is rushing this process through it is not listening to the people of Auckland, and therefore it is getting things wrong. The flip-flops on the boundary issue recognise that fact, and reveal that the Government is getting things wrong. I am afraid that because it is getting things wrong, and because it is not listening, the people of Auckland will have to pay for the mistakes of the National-ACT Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd8a23a7e4a1450389fd746518a2a030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd8a23a7e4a1450389fd746518a2a030\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I must say we have heard a very confused and inaccurate account from Su\u2019a William Sio, because he is the man who said \u201CWaiuku in, Pukekohe out.\u201D Well, he is totally wrong about that. He has been on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, but he has not even got the basic facts right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92dd5f5f2ee46b8aa62122ba0ed21d2\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He couldn\u2019t find Pukekohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2521930fdd2417496392948fa4389f9\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. It took him several hours before he finally made it there. He got there one afternoon, I believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThis bill does include the formation of the new Auckland Council established as a unitary authority, and of course it deals with the council\u2019s boundaries. The southern boundary is of huge importance to the electorate I represent, Hunua, and particularly to the people of Franklin. As soon as the royal commission had reported and the Government had made its response, I called two meetings. One of those meetings happened to be in the northern part of the Hunua electorate, between Beachlands and a place called \u014Cmana. I must say that 30 to 40 people turned up, a very low turnout given the importance of this issue. The one thing that they expressed was that they wished to ensure that a rurally orientated board finally represented the rural part of their electorate. The others were quite happy and content to go to Manukau. But the Pohutakawa Coast Times, in its editorial and on the front page of the paper, said the issue was ho-hum; that is all it said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe next day I had a meeting up in Pukekohe. It was hardly advertised, but 700 people turned up. They had some very, very important messages. They were loud and clear, and they were passionate in their messages. They wanted to keep Franklin intact. They also wanted to keep the name of Franklin, although the royal commission, of course, had wanted to change it to Hunua. Hunua is a name that translates into the meaning \u201Chigh, infertile ground\u201D, which is diametrically opposed to the rich, fertile soils of Franklin that produce so much of the food that goes to the good people of Auckland and elsewhere in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESubsequently, the Franklin District Council put up the proposition of a unitary authority separate from the new Auckland Council. I believe it had a very good case that was supported by four polls held over a period of 18 months, which showed that more than 85 percent of the population supported it in its bid to have a unitary authority. I must say it was always going to be a hard call. The royal commission had not supported that, and the Government\u2019s response did not support it either. I must say a very strong case was led by a passionate council and a passionate mayor, Mayor Mark Ball. They argued that they supported local government being reorganised in urban Auckland, but that it was inappropriate to extend Auckland City beyond the northern boundary of the existing Franklin District; that Auckland\u2019s urban problems were not Franklin\u2019s; that Franklin had its own water supply, its own sewerage, and its own stormwater system that were separate from Auckland\u2019s; and that it was imperative to safeguard the class I and class II soils that provide the food basket to Auckland and, of course, to the rest of New Zealand. This is what Franklin is famous for. Indeed, the mayor and council were passionate in terms of wanting to ensure that Franklin could be separate from Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI supported the submission of the Franklin District Council to become a separate unitary authority, and I worked hard with such luminaries as Sir William Birch, Lindsay Tisch, the excellent MP from Waikato, Mayor Mark Ball, and numerous others to see whether this was viable. But in our New Zealand democracy, which I celebrate\u2014many of those in the Labour Opposition, who have just given us 9 years of the nanny State do not celebrate this\u2014other voices were, nevertheless, opposed to Franklin being separate. They included Federated Farmers, interests in the Karaka area, interests in the P\u014Dkeno area, and the chair of the Waiuku/Awhitu Community Board. There were also Tainui, Environment Waikato, and Waikato District Council, who were concerned about catchment and Treaty issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Hon John Carter took the time to come to Franklin to hear the concerns of the local people, and so did many National members. But on balance the Government decided to oppose the idea of a unitary authority for Franklin. But I will make this point: not one member of the Labour caucus was prepared to put his or her head above the parapet to support the Franklin District Council\u2019s submission. Labour members go on and on about the boundaries, but they failed to be clear or concise in terms of what they wanted. Where were Labour\u2019s South Auckland MPs? I can see the Hon George Hawkins across the Chamber. He was not to be seen. There was no sight of, or sound from, him. The same goes for Ross Robertson, and, as I said earlier on, Su\u2019a William Sio had a great deal of trouble in even finding Pukekohe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe only realistic options remaining were to go to the Waikato River as the boundary, as the royal commission had suggested, with Environment Waikato taking on the catchment responsibilities, or to stick with the old Auckland Regional Council boundary, which cut through Colombo Road in Waiuku and the back of the racecourse in Pukekohe. Many people, including myself, described this as absolutely the worst of all options. I know and have confidence that the Local Government Commission will push those boundaries south. I know that will happen, and I do not believe anyone in this Chamber would oppose that. But, again, this time there was vigorous debate, with Federated Farmers, the Auckland Regional Council, the Waiuku/Awhitu Community Board, members of Enterprise Franklin, the arts boards, and many others supporting the royal commission\u2019s proposal. But many others did not support that take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the Franklin District Council did not have a formal fall-back position, because it was so deeply disappointed at not maintaining a separate unitary authority. But one would have noted that today Mayor Mark Ball was reported in the New Zealand Herald as saying the existing southern boundary is better than moving the boundary to the Waikato River, as at least it has some sound rationale behind it and is not just the result of political interference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EMy own view was that the principle that should be followed was that if a unitary authority was not possible, to keep as much of the existing Franklin intact as possible. However, in the end a decision had to be made, and the Government has done that. Clearly, some of our people will be pleased, but many others are deeply disappointed. There has been vigorous debate and vigorous consultation. There will be a new Franklin board, not a Hunua board, with strengthened functions. At the very least the boundaries must go south of Pukekohe and Waiuku, and no one can say that a huge effort has not been made to keep Franklin intact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4417f2b36c54c47a906952af4a49a8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4417f2b36c54c47a906952af4a49a8b\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I start by acknowledging Paul Hutchinson. I think that everyone on this side of the House would acknowledge that Paul Hutchinson is a nice man. He is a good man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1dc69f0d234f5991b8cf526d43558b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baea2e80189d4b5db80f4cd8811c9d88\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Paul Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b26beb3a089480c8b8f1b23611333ce\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This afternoon we have had several mispronunciations of my name. As I pointed out, the Hutchinsons invented the thumbscrew. My name is Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233f89811bb63452ead4909246d66a546\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the member will respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ad2e100f2d74f46807e4e782cd8cb8e\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: In case I botch it up again, I shall refer to the member as \u201CDr Paul\u201D for the purposes of this debate. Is that OK? Dr Paul has advocated really strongly for his community. I think he had very valid arguments. I was at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and I saw him come in with Sir William Birch, and I thought there was a guy who cared about his community. He came to support his community, and it was a very compelling argument. But the biggest problem was that Dr Paul is a nice guy. Dr Paul did not go back to his caucus and say that if the caucus did not support his argument, he would throw his toys out of the cot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EAnother nice person in this Parliament is John Carter, who was a great chair of the select committee. Many times he agreed with the people submitting, but he had to toe the party line. Of course, he ended up taking a real hit. We have seen him stand up in this Chamber and say that it was his fault and that he got it wrong. Well, we know that John Carter did not get it wrong. He was under instruction, but the instructions changed. He is a good party man and he toed the line, as well. He did not say he would throw his toys out of the cot, he would not work any more, he could not be part of the Government if it did not meet his wishes, etc., or the wishes of his constituency, as Dr Paul could have said. No, both members toed the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhy did the Government give in to a party that my colleague very generously said has less than 4 percent of the vote? Generally, the ACT Party has less than 2 percent of the vote. I have to say that the Minister of Local Government has been very silent in this debate, for a guy who is never quiet in question time. I think we would all invite the Minister to take a call on this issue. [Interruption] Under instruction? I do not think so. I do not think the Minister needs to take instruction, because he can say \u201CThis is my line in the sand, and if you do not support it, I\u2019m going to throw my toys out of the cot.\u201D The question is why his argument was so compelling for the National Government, when we had very eloquent members in a rather robust way running very important arguments as to why we should have M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland Council. Why was the Minister\u2019s argument so compelling? I would really like to hear a call from the Minister on that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EJackie Blue referred to Labour members as being bitter, having chips on our shoulder, and all those things. Our party is not like that. I congratulate the Government on its absolute consistency right from the word go. The Government rammed through the first reading under urgency. Did the Government say it would wait and consult on the royal commission\u2019s recommendations as it had promised and as we would have done? No, it did not. It completely disregarded those recommendations. It rammed through the first reading of the legislation, which is very controversial, under urgency, and it took away the right to have a referendum. That was a compelling right for all New Zealanders to have a say on this issue. Auckland\u2019s future is New Zealand\u2019s future, and it is vital to every citizen in New Zealand that we get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWho is \u201Cwe\u201D? Whom do we mean by \u201Cwe\u201D? It is the people of the Auckland region. It is westies, people from South Auckland, people from central Auckland, and people from the North Shore. It is also people from the rest of New Zealand. It is also the Auckland councils, which have worked really hard and have accepted, despite what members opposite have said, that there is a need for an overarching way of working together. The members of those councils are not Luddites, but they want the opportunity to get it right. It is also\u2014and this is so important\u2014the community organisations, which work together and are absolutely committed to enhancing the lives of every citizen in every part of the Greater Auckland community. By and large, their voices have been totally ignored by the Government. Yes, we accept that the Government has buckled on some things, claiming that it has listened to the people and will deliver these trophies\u2014but only because it had no choice. Those issues meant so much to the public out there that the Government buckled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EBut what does that buckling mean? The Government accepted that the idea of at-large councillors was not going to run. It was an absolute no-brainer to not retain it, so great was the opposition to it. But the large, multi-member wards are at-large councillors in disguise. That is what they mean. The change has not answered the concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EIf the Government was so responsive, why did it not respond to the thousands and thousands of Aucklanders who marched into Auckland in the h\u012Bkoi of protest at the lack of process and the lack of consultation, and in support of M\u0101ori seats? Tau Henare has so eloquently and so robustly said, not in this House but in other parts of this building, how important it is. I cannot wait for the M\u0101ori Party member who is sitting beside him to take a call. He and Tau Henare are sitting over there like two great mates who both support M\u0101ori seats, yet they are pussycats in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI am sure the Minister in the chair will wrench himself out of the chair and take a call. That Minister has already said that he wants the Auckland Council to stick to core business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b116e1ffde0e43b5855693a380e96345\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s this? A long lost soul! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd5d6f9b055494888c405c26ff85f36\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Who is this? It is Rodney Hide, the ACT member of Parliament who is the Minister of Local Government. There is no dissension from National, because National agrees with his agenda, despite the nice words, of councils sticking to core business. He says that councils should stick to their core business of roads, rates, and rubbish\u2014that that is the job of councils\u2014and, by the way, let us privatise them, as well. As part of this whole process, the Government had the ability to support a line that would prevent key assets from being privatised, but, again, the Government has shown its true colours, ramming the bill through all its stages under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWhat is so important about the urgency process? When we have the usual process there is time during the debate on the second reading, the Committee of the whole House stage, and the third reading for the public to consult, get on the phone, send their emails, and ask what the Government is doing. This Government has deprived the public of that process, and that is an insult to the people of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a931437523164a12832bbe6be0c60734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a931437523164a12832bbe6be0c60734\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2e7906bd2674a0ebffdc9f7f8b9370f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but there is too much cross-chatter; it is very difficult to hear the member. This is a 16-hour debate. There is plenty of opportunity for people to take calls, but if they want to discuss things, that is what the lobbies are for. Interjections are fine, but there is a lot of cross-talk that has nothing to do with the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227425c6fabfe2453994e1e099b861abcc\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I rise to speak in support of an amendment to clause 18 of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill in my name dealing with the question of the northern boundary for the new Auckland City. I realise that many people breathed a sigh of relief yesterday when the Prime Minister announced that the Government had decided to reverse the select committee recommendation and allow all of the current Rodney District to stay within the Auckland City boundaries. The Green Party sees it as really important that the most strenuous guidelines possible are applied to metropolitan urban limits to prevent turning what is left of the green fields and bush between \u014Crewa and the Dome Valley into one long series of Auckland suburbs. We therefore commend the Government for listening to the many submitters from places like Warkworth, Leigh, and Matakana, who, for that and other very good reasons, did not want to be assigned holus-bolus to the Kaipara District. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI believe, however, that there is still a case to be made for cutting off the northernmost part of the existing Rodney District and dealing with it differently. I am therefore putting forward an amendment, which is on the Table for members interested, that basically draws a line from Tauhoa in the west on the Kaipara Harbour, through to the northern part of the Dome Valley, and then through to Pakiri Beach on the east coast. I suggest that the western side of the district, that northern part, goes to the Kaipara District Council, and the eastern side, including Wellsford, goes to the Northland Regional Council. Those northernmost parts of Rodney are rural in nature, as anyone who knows the north will know. In many ways they have a closer affinity with Kaipara on the west and Northland on the east than they have with urban or peri-urban Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EPlaces like Port Albert, Tauhoa, Wellsford, Tomarata, and Wayby, where I used to live, have quite a different culture from the townships of Warkworth and others further south. In fact, as anyone who has lived or lives in the area knows, it is actually very tribal. There is a lot of quite friendly\u2014and sometimes not so friendly\u2014rivalry between the districts, even slight local dialects. A number of people from those districts, including iwi from Oruawharo Marae, and from Te Uri o Hau more generally, have clearly called for the northern boundary of the super-city to be drawn at the Hoteo River, south of Wellsford. I note that people in the district have just today collected over 260 signatures in 3 hours asking that the area north of the Hoteo goes north and does not stay in the super-city. They ask that we \u201Cleave the rest of south Rodney to get on with being part of the super-city. Let us get on with milking the cows and other things rural.\u201D Wellsford and surrounds are already in the Northland electorate for the purposes of general elections; the chair of the Auckland governance special select committee knows that very well. People are as likely to go north to Kaiwaka, Mangawhai or Whangarei for services, recreation, and shopping as they are to go south to Auckland. On the west coast there is, of course, a strong affinity to the Kaipara Harbour with its northern centre in Dargaville. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI strongly believe that it makes a lot of sense to divide off the northern most parts of Rodney and not push these essentially rural communities into a forced marriage with the huge new Auckland super-city. I call on all other parties in the Chamber to seriously consider supporting this amendment. I realise that it may be a little abstract for those who do not know the district, but to make this alteration would be hugely beneficial for the people and communities directly affected. I am really sorry that the select committee did not come to this conclusion during its consideration of the bill and went for the much broader cutting-off of half of Rodney from just north of \u014Crewa, which really was a pretty crazy idea. The Government has made the right decision in reversing its decision on that, but I call on it to reconsider and actually take the sliver across the top, the northern part of the district, and do the right thing for the people of that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI am not pretending to be an expert on exactly where the boundaries should be, although I have given a rough outline in the Supplementary Order Paper. The Local Government Commission is the expert on this, and I hope that other parties in the Chamber will see their way clear to supporting this very sensible amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002295b17ba106b9481fb7f6d1c587f703c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295b17ba106b9481fb7f6d1c587f703c8\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to one or two points that have been made by Opposition members because, again, one or two issues have been raised that are wrong. I listened to Su\u2019a William Sio, for example, say that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide, had so much influence over the Government that the Government had bowed to his every wish, to his every direction, and to everything that he wanted and that this bill was now before the Committee in the way that he recommended. I ask the Minister in the chair\u2014perhaps he can nod and indicate\u2014whether he supported having councils at large. My understanding is that the Minister did. Does this bill, coming back from the select committee, have a provision that there should be councils at large? No. Does that mean that the Minister got his way? I think not. I ask the Minister in the chair whether he supported the single transferable vote (STV). The Minister is nodding. Did the committee recommend that there be STV? I do not think so; we recommended there be first past the post. Does that mean that the Minister got his way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe point I am making is that the Opposition members need to understand that this is a coalition that works together. We win some and we lose some. We make good policy and we end up representing what the people want, and that is what has happened in this bill. The Minister in the chair can be commended for the leadership he has shown in regard to responding to the wishes of the people of Auckland and in being part of a true coalition of people who are working together to make sure that this place is better for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere is another irony. When we started out there was so much ranting, raving, and negative comments that the legislation would never work, that what the Government had put before the House was dreadful, that the bill before the House was shocking, and that we sent it to the select committee but the select committee would not do anything. I thought I should draw to the Committee\u2019s attention that one of the things recommended by the Government was that there should be no at-large councillors. The coalition Government said that all councillors would be elected from wards. You know, that is what the Labour Party supports. They say that all councillors should be elected from wards. They said that, so the Government thought that if we were going to have people elected from wards, maybe we should have multi-member wards. Guess what! That is what the Labour Party said should happen: that members should be elected from multi-member wards. To be fair, Labour said there should be only two members per multi-member ward, but nevertheless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a87f8ff592a94cb6ae5280ab3c28c01b\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Under STV!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66c139348e74b1daa3679b05083acc3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe next thing that Labour members said was that Franklin and Rodney should have their own councillors. Guess what! The Government had said that Franklin and Rodney should get their own councillors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ecb9c53864d4572a81519e8b31b2a15\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Where are you getting this from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2b6b64b28c44b699ed2c9ce70d1213\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is actually from Mr Twyford\u2019s script. The next thing they said was that the local boards should be able to fund community initiatives. Guess what! Bless my soul! Can members believe that that is what is going to happen? The Government is going to do that. Goodness gracious me! Do members know what else Labour members said? They said that local boards should make decisions about local decisions in place-shaping. Labour asked for that, and do members know what is going to happen? That is what the Government said is going to happen. Do we agree on that as well? Goodness gracious me! The next thing Labour members said was that the mayoral office should have some resources. Do members know what is going to happen? The mayoral office is going to have some resources. Goodness gracious me! They also said that the mayor should lead development in draft plans and budgets. Do members know what is going to happen? The Government is going to make sure that the mayor can lead development in draft plans and budgets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere is another page of stuff here. Labour said that all of Rodney should be included in Auckland. As I said, I got it wrong. The Government has decided that that is what should happen, so that is what is going to happen. The next thing that happened, of course, was that Labour said that asset-protection provisions were required. We already know that they are in the Local Government Act, so that is exactly what is going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWhen I start going through the points that Labour members were worried about, it is no wonder they got to the stage where it is really difficult for them to debate, because a lot of the stuff that they said should happen was already going to happen or is happening. We picked those points up because the people of Auckland said we should. We listened and it is what the public wanted. It is silly for members opposite to say that someone got this, the Minister did that, and so on. The Minister wanted to make sure that we ended up with the best legislation to represent Auckland, because if we get this legislation right and if we get Auckland right\u2014and we will\u2014that is good for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say one thing for Rodney Hide: he always wants what is best for this country. In the same way, so do the Prime Minister and the National Party, as does this National-led coalition Government. The one thing that the Opposition cannot understand is that we have a Minister of Local Government, a Prime Minister, and a coalition Government that care about this country and are looking to deliver for it. If we sometimes have ideas, put ourselves out there, say what we would like to happen, and do not get our way, that is the reason we do it. We make those decisions and we are prepared to have a bit of give and take in the interests of this country. Surely no one can criticise us for having that sort of attitude. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EYou know, I have said to the audiences at the many public meetings that I have attended in Auckland that I would love to stand there and tell those people that they can leave it to us and that we will get it 100 percent right. Then I have said to them that if I was a betting man, I would bet that we will not. We will not get this 100 percent right, because it is an ongoing process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f213d9fc83624e8bb41710a2488ff662\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b270e3b5554acb8ee5b52c71b18e51\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me tell my colleague that, funnily enough, as this is an ongoing process, we will continue improving it, adding to it, and making it work in the way that it needs to, which is what Aucklanders want us to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWhen members opposite say that the Government did not do this or it should have done that, and that it did not get this right or it did not listen to that, then I say that this is not just a 2-minute process. It is not something that we can click our fingers and get right in one shot. It is an ongoing process. When the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide, embarked on this process, when I was alongside him embarking on it, and when the Government was there as part of this whole thing, we knew that this process would be continuous. We knew that we would continually have to go out, look, listen, and make sure that we had it right. This is a step in the process. I want the Opposition to understand that we have moved a long way from where we started, and we will continue to move. As we listen, as we learn, and as we make progress, we will continue to improve this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOpposition members must remember that a third bill is in place. We have come a long way from where we started and we have done a lot in this bill, but there is yet more to be done. Believe you me, this Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide; this Prime Minister, John Key; and this coalition Government will be doing a lot to make sure that in the end we get this process as near right as we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI will finish on this note: the one thing that the Labour Opposition is really cheesed off about is the fact that we at least are doing it. Labour members did not do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002231256c765aa04dfd89d5f925466d82a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231256c765aa04dfd89d5f925466d82a5\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou, n\u014D reira, Mr Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution in this debate. What a sham it has been. The Government talked about consultation and then did exactly what it wanted to do. So much for consultation! We have just heard from the Hon John Carter, who said that the Government consulted. Well, I say to Mr Carter, the plan has stripped democracy from residents. That is still the case, because the Auckland Council has all the power. It will decide the plans, it will own everything, and it will employ the staff. That is exactly what the real situation is. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Rodney Hide, can cloud it and do what he likes, but the reality is that we know otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBut what has happened to Franklin? Better still, I ask what has happened to the hapless member for Franklin, Dr Paul Hutchison. He spoke out strongly against the boundary changes, but he has been ignored by the Prime Minister, he has been ignored by Rodney Hide, he has been ignored by the Hon John Carter, he has been ignored by his local mayor, and he has been ignored by his colleagues. What has happened to the honourable member Paul Hutchison is that he has learnt that loyalty is expendable in politics. He has been shafted by his own colleagues, who have their own political agenda. Penny Webster, the Mayor of Rodney District and a former ACT member of Parliament, and the local member for that area, Dr Lockwood Smith, spoke out strongly and they were listened to. The people of Rodney will be thankful for their action because of what it has achieved. But the people of Franklin will be asking what Dr Paul Hutchison did. The answer appears to be very, very little, because Franklin has been gutted and Rodney is intact. There is a message in that for the people of Franklin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EWhat we see with this legislation is a constitutional outrage. The Government is rushing it through in the dead of night, under urgency. That is what is happening. The Hon Rodney Hide should get off his hind legs, take a call, and justify what he has done in this Chamber tonight. The Hon John Carter should get off his hind legs and defend what his Government has done to Franklin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288de8e9a0f604aa2969fe804db5d998d\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s been up for the last 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617b72951ac04e43ad829751ddd32096\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: He did not touch on Franklin. He should defend what has happened to Franklin. We have seen an abuse of democracy. The Government has ignored the Mayor of Franklin District, Mark Ball, and the local National MP, Dr Paul Hutchison, and even the good people of Franklin have been ignored over the boundaries. Waiuku has been cut in half, Tuakau has been sold out to the Waikato, and the southern rim of the Pukekohe race track is now in the Waikato region. So when the cars race around there, half of the time they will be racing in Auckland and on the lap right at the end they will be in the Waikato. What we are seeing is absolutely illogical and it is an abuse of executive power. Where is the transparency? Where is the accountability? Where is the good governance demanded by the people of Franklin? It is a shameful act of jackboot democracy. That is exactly what we are seeing here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe front page of the Manukau Courier says it all. It has a photograph of the Minister of Local Government, the Hon Rodney Hide, with his hand up saying: \u201CDo it my way.\u201D That is what is happening. It is jackboot democracy: \u201CDo it my way.\u201D We have a Minister who is out of control and who is imposing his rule on the faithful, loyal, good people of the Franklin district. Mark Ball\u2014whom you will know, Mr Chairman, from your dealings when you were in the Opposition\u2014is a decent mayor. He is a vocal critic of the hatchet job done to Franklin and he has every reason to feel aggrieved. He is a good, loyal servant of the people. He was there to serve others and he carried the same values and ethics into that job that he had when he was a police officer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b2cd2059a09475a9a1a1457a78e9f55\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. I say to the members sitting near the member who is speaking that there is too much noise. Could they please show the member some courtesy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d532b3065d0c463ba50d4624bcd0646e\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s harassing us, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b6db8949c243f48e61e48d3c779a7f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is not to interrupt while I am on my feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022571e2320aeb94653b5b8bc2b0d0e9539\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. We have a former police officer, now the Mayor of Franklin District, who is standing up for the rights of the people in his area, and we have a Government that is steamrolling legislation through and cutting Franklin in half. For this mayor\u2019s efforts, he has been left out to dry. He has been hung, drawn, and quartered. It is a shameful act of betrayal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002288e4e95dcc74492e88d2a0983a38c285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e4e95dcc74492e88d2a0983a38c285\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I acknowledge John Carter and also the Hon Rodney Hide for the leadership and consistent position that they have taken on this bill. The first point I will make is to say that tonight we are hearing a phoney war in Parliament. The reason we are hearing that phoney war is that the Labour Party has committed to one unitary authority\u2014yes, that is what those members believe in; that is what they have argued for at many different stages throughout the progress of this legislation through this House\u2014but when we come to the issue of local boards, we see members on the other side of the Chamber slip-sliding away. We have seen those members argue for six local entities. We have seen them argue for six to 12 local entities. Then we saw a press release from Mr Twyford arguing that there should be from 10 to 12 local entities. Now in the legislation we have seen them arguing for 14 to 20 local entities. We have seen the Labour members consistently slip-sliding on their position on Auckland governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIt is no wonder we are seeing a real difference between two parties: the National Party, which has consistently said it wants one unitary authority and 20 to 30 local boards; and the Labour Party, which is confused and has said it wants anywhere from six to 20. But the real story is that Labour supports one unitary authority. The real story is that Labour actually supports the number of local boards that is similar to what National supports. So what are Labour members debating here this evening? It is very difficult for Aucklanders listening this evening to find out, because those members believe in one regional entity; they believe in 20 local boards. So what are they here arguing? We will have 12 hours of debate from a party that believes in one regional entity. Labour members believe in 20 local boards. So what are they here arguing? We will have 12 hours of debate from Labour members\u2014they will talk about everything but those two things. They will talk about everything except having one strong regional entity, because they believe in it; and having 20 local boards, because they believe in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe will hear arguments about everything else, but I tell the Aucklanders who are listening tonight that Labour supports what National is supporting this evening. Labour supports this legislation. I challenge any Labour member to get on his or her feet tonight and argue against a unitary authority and against 20 local boards. They will not do it, because they absolutely support this legislation this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other point I make, which has been made by many other members tonight, is that the members of the select committee turned up and listened. They did not agree with everything that was submitted but they have shifted their position, and both Ministers have acknowledged that this evening. We have seen a shifting, a change in position. There are now no councillors \u201Cat large\u201D\u2014many people submitted against that and we listened. There is now no split in the boundary in terms of Rodney, because we listened. There are now much stronger powers for the functions of boards, because we listened. There is now decent funding for those local boards, because we listened. So what we have here this evening are strong local entities that will be able to finally deliver for their communities, and a strong regional entity for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party does not disagree with that. That is the key thing we are debating this evening, so what we will hear from that side of the Chamber is everything but those two core matters, which are integral to the future of Auckland and to the hundreds and thousands of young people in Auckland who want to finally be connected to their communities. And that is why members on the other side of the Chamber could not turn up and vote against it. That is why they slipped from six to 20 in terms of the number of local boards. They would not turn up and vote against strong, grassroots democracy. They could not turn up to this Chamber and say they would not give the people of Mount Albert a local board. They could not say they would not give the people of Papakura a local board. They were not going to do that, and that is why they slipped so much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI am pleased to stand and support this bill. I am pleased to be here at a historic moment in Auckland\u2019s history when we are finally delivering the unitary authority that the royal commission agreed with and that the Labour Party agrees with. I am also pleased to be supporting many local boards that will be able to deliver for their communities\u2014finally\u2014in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other point I make concerns the tremendous contributions of Simon Bridges, Jackie Blue, and Tau Henare to that select committee. They are outstanding members of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220005e765e1bf4cfc809984e1eaf0c861\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am having great difficulty hearing the member. I would like to hear what the member is saying, just as I like to hear all speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f1452f3389548e7a94b237fd534e5b4\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You must be the only one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e609b7f052742c38ea0284b485d2674\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am standing; do not interrupt. I like to hear all speeches. I think there needs to be some courtesy here. Interjections are fine, but keep the level down please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c49d8c7e011442bbc3cacf88b75b5b8\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Your point is well made, but you would also accept that this is a robust debate with a fair amount of passion in it. When buckets are thrown from one side of the Chamber and there is provocation, people will respond in kind. If it is the case that we are to sit here and desist from making our counter-contribution, then the member should not throw buckets across the aisle. It goes both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c50dd1af12e745108f2af059ec814735\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for those comments. I have allowed a fairly free flow over the course of this debate. I am not shutting down the debate, but I would like to hear what the member is saying. I know that members want to take calls. We still have a few hours to go, and I am sure members will be able to express themselves and express the points they want to over the next few hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac6304d7abb4d5e80f48293e6a6ae57\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge the contribution from Simon Bridges, Tau Henare, and Jackie Blue. I also acknowledge the contribution from the other side of the Chamber. I acknowledge at this point that the minority report from the Labour Party actually backs up everything I have just said. Labour members will not oppose one unitary authority. There is no opposition to it anywhere in the minority report, because they absolutely support it. In the minority report, they show that they have shifted significantly\u2014from six to 12 local boards, to 14 to 20 local boards, and we could end up in a position where both major parties agree on that number of local boards for communities in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ESo the people listening tonight can take out these messages from the debate. The first is that the Government has listened. We have listened in the area of \u201Cat large\u201D councillors. We have listened in the area of the boundaries for Rodney. We have listened in the area of stronger functions and powers for local boards. We have listened in the area of providing decent funding for those local boards. But people listening can take this second message. The Labour Party is here to waste Parliament\u2019s time for the next 12 hours and talk about a bill that it actually supports. I look forward to 2011 and to getting around the communities and talking to them about the fact that the Labour Party supported this legislation. This legislation will finally deliver a strong regional entity for Auckland, for the communities and the young people who want to be involved in their communities. It will finally deliver the public transport system we have always wanted. I am pleased to support this legislation, and I am pleased to support a Government that is making decisions, unlike the Labour Party, which will not make decisions. National is in Government today because we are prepared to make the hard calls and we are prepared to deliver for the people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224d11cf56dd6a45dcb1d9955a2a682881\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d11cf56dd6a45dcb1d9955a2a682881\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. That, folks, was National\u2019s contribution to artificial intelligence. That was a speech that, despite hours of studying the mirror and days of rehearsing, failed the test of being a political contribution and will be remembered as a variation on selling Girl Guide biscuits. That speech is reflective of how out of touch the member Nikki Kaye is and of how poorly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9117f80d3342638918bd67ee7e3222\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: Pompous arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff83ac0b9d7b4ea1be4163111d855af5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so that is what we are getting from members on the other side of the Chamber. Rather than debating the issues, they have fallen into a tawdry type of behaviour, that of assassinating the personalities on this side of the Chamber who seek to uphold democracy. Of course, a number of those members are living proof\u2014and it was evident during their contributions at the select committee\u2014that stupidity is permanent but ignorance can be rectified, all of which they failed to develop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI will turn my attention to the M\u0101ori Party. We set up a subcommittee, at great cost, to investigate whether there should be M\u0101ori seats. Despite the fact that Georgina te Heuheu had every opportunity to join that subcommittee\u2014along with another Minister\u2014she, a member who had earlier shown her colours as being willing to stand up for M\u0101ori seats, was nowhere to be seen. It fell to Tau Henare to lead that subcommittee. Of course, he is a person who knows that whoever strikes the first blow loses the argument. However, he led us on to the marae, and all the work that was done there was null and void because people were lied to. People were told by senior members of the Government to come and make their submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe fatal flaw of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s argument was that it believed it could run a model that was very complicated. Dr Pita Sharples sought to sell it to the Government, and it was so far from what the average M\u0101ori wants in electoral reform in local government. In fact, it was so absurd that if one followed through the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s obsession with the mana whenua argument, Pita Sharples himself would not be in this House. But the mistake that those members made was that they falsely believed they had such leverage over the party that ruled the Government coalition that they mistakenly thought their leverage was larger than the history and the integrity of the royal commission report. They went out, fomented a h\u012Bkoi, and left expectations amongst young M\u0101ori that they would deliver, but they never ever had the opportunity, they never had the ballast, to deliver on that. The egregious error that they made was that they thought they were better than $5.5 million worth of submissions, recommendations, and thousands and thousands of hours of deliberations. It shows the way in which they have over-estimated their relevance to this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe supported M\u0101ori seats. We were the party supporting M\u0101ori seats when the Auckland Regional Council\u2014despite the meanderings of Michael Bassett in the newspaper\u2014created two M\u0101ori seats. They were snuffed out by Warren Cooper and that wretched Government of the early 1990s, but we are the party with the track record with regard to M\u0101ori seats. We did not at the end of the day, as I indicated to my fellow Northlander Mr John Carter, support mana whenua seats. We supported one person, one vote. We did not support the entrenchment of the interests of hap\u016Bs that are largely at war with each other, iwis that cannot agree on territory. We wanted that to remain in customary space, not to pollute or weaken civic space, which is what elections should be about in local government. Every opportunity existed for that innovation to be brought into local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENational had no intention of ever satisfying the M\u0101ori Party or M\u0101ori voters. But why did Dr Pita Sharples continue to build expectations, and not only in the minds of Tuku Morgan and Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua? It is because M\u0101ori Party members overestimated their relevance. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022e14b261f6ccb4700b61db8779970c34a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e14b261f6ccb4700b61db8779970c34a\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take the Committee back to comments made by Ross Robertson, because he made an absolutely factual inconsistency in error. He referred to the Mayor of Franklin District, Mark Ball, as being opposed to the southern border drawn by the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, and by the Minister of Local Government and his associate. I have to tell the Committee that if they looked at yesterday\u2019s New Zealand Herald they would see that Mark Ball was absolutely united in his support for the place where the line is being drawn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI would like to take the Committee back about 10 years to the first Knowledge Wave conference. I think I was probably one of the very few people in this Parliament who was actually in attendance at that meeting. That Knowledge Wave conference, which was organised by the Labour Party and by the then Prime Minister, Helen Clark, came up with the recommendation that if this country was to drive forward, if we were to aspire to the salaries and to the living standards of people in Australia, we had to have a truly Pacific city in New Zealand that would compete with Sydney and Brisbane. About that there is no argument. I want to commend Wairarapa constituent Dame Margaret Bazley, who was one of the commissioners on the royal commission that looked into this issue, and commend her for the wonderful job that she and her fellow commissioners did. I also want to congratulate Rodney Hide, the Minister of Local Government, and especially John Carter, the Associate Minister of Local Government, for the excellent job that they have done. They have listened to the people, unlike the Labour Government, which had 9 years following the Knowledge Wave conference to actually implement the findings of that conference and did nothing. The Labour Government wasted the space. This Government has been in place for 9 months, and here we are now taking decisions on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWhat I think is particularly useful about this bill, which will have subsequent application in the Wairarapa electorate, is the regional spread and the support it gives to community interests. This bill will create a unified Auckland Council, as per the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Act of 2009. There will be a mayor, and there will be 20 elected councillors. What is most important though is that there will be local boards. It is the local boards that will have the real authority as part of this legislation. Certainly we have to look at the overall organisation of the Auckland area. We have to make sure that there is no traffic congestion. We have to make sure that sewerage and water are properly attended to. We have to ensure that Auckland is a vibrant, progressive, forward-moving city of world class. At the same time, we have to remember that local people have serious community interests. So it is important that we have local boards that will engage in democratic decision-making by, and on behalf of, communities in their area. I think that local committees will better enable the promotion of the social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of communities within the local board area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI see this legislation as having application in my electorate, particularly in the southern area of the Wairarapa where, from Mount Bruce south, we have three councils and 29 councillors looking after 38,000 people. We need to follow this Auckland model in the Wairarapa, because it will bring huge efficiencies to our particular area, and it will streamline the administration of our local bodies. If we follow this Auckland model, we will continue to allow the expression of parochial interests. Local people will be able to make sure that the council will consider the views and preferences expressed by the small local bodies and the decision-making power allocated to them by the council. I think it will be really important for the local communities to identify and to communicate the views of each entity that makes up that huge Auckland super-city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt is really important that those councils get involved in local by-laws and that they engage in protecting local parks, particular trees of significance, and other recreational facilities. I see that local boards will be involved in planning and determining the priorities and wishes of communities regarding non-regulatory activities, and local boards must consult their communities by preparing a local board plan. I see this having absolute application again in the Wairarapa and maybe further to the north into the Central Hawke\u2019s Bay area, where we have similar issues involving Dannevirke, Hastings, Napier, and right through to Wairoa. We have to look at how we can construct forward-looking local governance and local administration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIt is really important that in this legislation we allocate decision making to local boards. It is envisaged that in the legislation the council and the local boards will enter into agreements whereby the responsibility for a particular decision or class of decisions will be allocated between the Auckland Council and the local boards so that there are clear lines of responsibility and accountability. Decision making for a non-regulatory activity has to be allocated to the local board. That is what the legislation provides for, unless the decision affects a broader area or issue and therefore is not suitable for allocation to a single local board or council. Again, I see this as being exactly how a system could operate in the Wairarapa, where there would be an overall council and then separate small entities that would run, for example, Martinborough, Featherston, Greytown, Carterton, and Masterton and also give expression to those living in the rural hinterland. At the moment, many of those people are shut out from our decision-making process, and it is important that we bring them in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThe bill is very good because local boards will have to monitor the implementation of their agreement with the council, and this must be included in annual council reports. The council will be required by the legislation to set a code of conduct, which is something our political colleagues across the Committee could think about, and which will apply to each member of the local board. The council may delegate any of its responsibilities to the local boards within certain criteria. The Auckland Transition Agency will initially delegate powers and disputes tribunals and will establish ongoing negotiations between the council and the boards. The bill is particularly fine legislation. Again, I congratulate the Minister, his deputy, and his colleagues like Nikki Kaye, Simon Bridges, Sam Lotu-Iiga, and Amy Adams, who worked very, very hard on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. With those few words, I say again that I support the bill on behalf of the people of the Wairarapa. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u0022966bfe7bbb4a489783f25d915df15a10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022966bfe7bbb4a489783f25d915df15a10\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I will start this speech by doing a couple of things. It is pretty important that we address the rewriting of history that appears to be going on tonight. I also want to address the rather delusional process that appears to be going on across the other side of the Chamber whereby National members think that if they say often enough that they have listened, the people of Auckland will believe them. Believe me: that is deluded. People know that National members have not listened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI will go through the history of the process of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, because it is important to get it on the record. I start by saying that Labour has consistently sought reform of Auckland\u2019s governance structures. Labour set up the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance because we believed that Auckland needed to have some change and because we want Auckland to be a successful international city that serves the interests of all the people who live there. Let us get that on the record first. The royal commission worked for 18 months and produced a comprehensive blueprint for strong regional governance in Auckland. That is very important. We are talking about a third of our population. We all probably agree that the success of Auckland is critical for the success of our whole country. Of course, the other reason this bill is so important is that local government plays a huge public-good role. Local government provides key services that people need and provides a way for people to have a say about local matters in their local communities. The bill is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI take time tonight to acknowledge and recognise all of the Aucklanders who have tried so hard to have a say in this process: the Aucklanders who took to the streets to make their voices heard, the Aucklanders who filled the community halls to have their voices heard, and the Aucklanders who, despite the short time frame, managed to make submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and went along to that committee. I was at a number of the sessions of the select committee and was really impressed by the quality of the submissions that people were making. It is because they care, because it is an important bill, and because they do not agree with what the Government is trying to do here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe protests that people made about the bill were really interesting. It interests me that probably the one part of Auckland that did not have people out in the streets saying: \u201CSave our city!\u201D was Auckland City. I think that is because we can see the level of dissatisfaction of citizens and ratepayers in Auckland City with the National lookalikes and the arrogance of that city council. But that is another story, and I will leave it for another time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe process here was both a sham and a shame, as my colleague David Cunliffe was saying earlier. The Government went on to reject the royal commission\u2019s work in less than 2 weeks. It rejected a great deal of the work and a lot of thoughtful contributions. Some of the work seems to have sunk without any sign of coming back to the surface. Again, I remind people of the manifesto commitments the National Party made. National said that when the royal commission reported it would then consult on the royal commission recommendations. As we all know, National did not do that. In fact, instead it rushed the first bill through the House under urgency and then allowed 1 month for people to get submissions together on this critically important matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EStill we are seeing\u2014and we are seeing it here tonight\u2014that the Government will rush through legislation where there has been a lack of genuine consultation and a lack of detail about many important matters. Government members might say that all that detail will be in the third bill, and perhaps some of it will, but I remain very concerned that many factors have not yet been thought through. How will the different levels relate to each other? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003ELet me assure Nikki Kaye, who seems to be concerned that we will not be talking about all of matters that are in this bill, that she can rest assured. We will go through each and every matter, and we will make sure we consider Aucklanders\u2019 point of view in terms of each and every matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI thought it might be interesting for members to hear some comments from the editor-in-chief of Suburban Newspapers, because he has followed this process very carefully. David Kemeys said: \u201CWe are listening, this is about consultation, they said. But they did exactly what they wanted.\u201D When he says \u201Cthey\u201D, he means the members across the Chamber. \u201CA Royal Commission, 18-month multi-million dollar inquiry\u2014ignored. Select committee, more millions but thousands of opinions canvassed\u2014ignored \u2026 This newspaper complained the plan stripped democracy from residents. That is still the case because the Auckland Council has all the power. It will decide plans, own everything and employ staff.\u201D David Kemeys went on to say: \u201CWatching Mr Hide pontificate on all this is irritating because his ACT Party clearly has more influence than it should, given its pitiful support level.\u201D I think that point of view is shared by many Aucklanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI will also talk about missed opportunity. Having talked about the problems with the process, let us look at what we are missing here; let us look at the lack of vision and the lack of ambition of the Government. We all know that local government is not well understood. We all know, because it is a fact, that there are low levels of participation in local government elections and local government processes. That is deeply worrying. This is an important part of our democracy. And this bill will do nothing to improve that situation. It could have been a real opportunity for us to engage with Aucklanders in a proper manner, to commit to some key principles, to commit to an appropriate time frame, and to try to build a high level of consensus about the sort of Auckland that we wanted and the sort of processes that we wanted. Ramming this legislation through in the way the Government is doing clearly undermines that very important opportunity. It is a real shame. It is a shame not only for the people of Auckland, but also for the people of New Zealand, because\u2014as the previous speaker, John Hayes, alluded to\u2014this process provides a blueprint for what will happen elsewhere in New Zealand. Instead of people having some confidence that their views will be taken into account, that some key principles will be articulated, and that some real work will be done on making that happen so that perhaps people gain some real understanding of local government and its processes\u2014hopefully with the very positive spin-off that they will participate in its processes and elections\u2014we have once again really missed that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIf we look at some of the content of this bill, we see that there are fundamental flaws. There is still a centralisation of power in this arrangement. There are too few councillors to represent Aucklanders properly. The mayor\u2019s powers have been increased, despite the fact that Aucklanders said too much power was in the bill. So much for Government members saying they have listened and made changes! In this case, the Government has gone completely in the reverse direction to what Aucklanders wanted. Then there is the issue of representation for M\u0101ori, which, again, the Government has not listened on, at all. The majority of submitters were quite clear: they wanted to see Auckland have real representation for M\u0101ori. I was extremely heartened by that. I was so pleased to see that so many New Zealanders held that point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI think a number of the members across the Chamber need to be fairly aware that people will see through the Government\u2019s claim that it is listening, which it repeats endlessly and hopes that Aucklanders will believe. Well, they will not. The member from Maungakiekie, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, needs to know that the people there will not fall for that just because he says it. I have to say the Hon John Carter is a very good salesman; he should get a job selling something because he is pretty good at it. He went to the meetings, and he did the business on behalf of the local MP. He went out there, did a couple of meetings, and said that the Government was listening. The reality is that the decisions were made, in many cases, outside of the select committee process. Let us not fool ourselves: this was Cabinet and it was Rodney Hide. During the course of this debate we will have more time to think about what Rodney Hide\u2019s real agenda is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI leave members with the thought that Aucklanders will not be sucked in by this. We will hold the Government to account, and so will they.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002290c30c14f3a2462fb44365a7f49668c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290c30c14f3a2462fb44365a7f49668c7\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Normally I would be happy just to go with the flow of the k\u014Drero and interject where possible, but I think there needs to be some clarification about some of the issues. First of all, there is all this talk about Labour\u2019s support for the M\u0101ori seats. Mr Jones knows, more than most of them do, that that is clearly not true. In fact, Mr Jones is known to have told Mr John Carter and Mr Tau Henare that Labour would not be supporting the M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen the M\u0101ori people of \u014Cr\u0101kei and all over Auckland called for a hui and invited all the M\u0101ori MPs to come back to that hui to discuss what to do to try to fight for the M\u0101ori seats, do members know who turned up? Well, I heard Mr Jones over there slagging off Georgina te Heuheu for not bothering to come along to the select committee, but did she turn up to the hui in Auckland? Hell, yes, she turned up. Regardless of the fact that a lot of the M\u0101ori people up there were not particularly keen on National\u2019s position on the M\u0101ori seats, Georgina te Heuheu fronted. She fronted up to that hui. She was applauded for turning up and being honest. The only other MPs who turned up were the Hon Dr Pita Sharples and the honourable Hone Harawira. I did not see anybody from Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen we heard about the Labour members\u2019 commitment to the M\u0101ori seats, it was the first opportunity that they have taken to declare their position in support of the M\u0101ori seats. For about 2 or 3 weeks after the time that the issue was laid before this House, Labour members were deathly silent. They never took a position on it. They came out in favour of having M\u0101ori seats only when they realised that National would be desperately opposed to it, and they decided that they could get on to this issue. That is the only reason that Labour has come out in favour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI will tell Labour members something else, too. Mr Jones clearly has a completely different opinion from the rest of the Labour members. Every single one of the Labour MPs who has spoken on this issue tonight has spoken about the \u201CM\u0101ori seats\u201D\u2014M\u0101ori seats with an \u201Cs\u201D at the end. Mr Jones got up and said that Labour never supported the M\u0101ori seats but that it supported only one M\u0101ori seat. Well, come on, I ask whether Mr Jones is right. I know that he expects to be the leader of the Labour Party in the very near future, but I ask whether he is right or whether the rest of those members are right, because it clearly is not the same position. When I hear all the Labour MPs talk about the right of iwi and the importance of mana whenua, and then Mr Jones gets up and says that Labour does not support mana whenua, that it does not support hap\u016B, and that it does not support iwi, then clearly there are some major differences within the party on that side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen it became clear that Labour had to get in on the act, there was a massive h\u012Bkoi through Auckland, but where were Mr Jones and Mr Parekura Horomia caught and where were their photos taken? At McDonald\u2019s. They were not even clever enough to come with me around the back to Burger King, but they went right out and were snapped at McDonald\u2019s, right on Queen Street. That was very good, I say to Mr Jones. That has really been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210fd1c07f9a244499f6cdae87c4e191e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. For the record it was Burger King, and it was a cup of tea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ea57f37d2743f4aac1f5705c3ea603\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, I say to Mr Jones. I simply make the point that although I am happy to stand alongside Labour in this instance to fight for the M\u0101ori seats and I am not supportive of the Government\u2019s position on this issue, I do need to clarify exactly where Labour is coming from on this. It was only when Labour saw that the M\u0101ori Party was going to get a run on this that it decided to come out in support. That is the only reason it came out in support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETo stop all those people on the other side of the Chamber from yelling at me, I will now turn my sights to Mr Rodney Hide, who has said, on numerous occasions, that the importance of this vote is about one man, one vote. Well, if it is true that in this country we believe in one man, one vote, then how come Winston Peters\u2019 party got 10,000 more votes than Rodney Hide\u2019s party, but Winston Peters\u2019 party got no seats in the House and Mr Hide\u2019s party got five? I say to Mr Hide that, clearly, the democracy he talks about is not the democracy that he is happy to enjoy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt is also important to realise that when Mr Hide talks about one man, one vote, the democracy that he espouses is not the democracy that he enjoys. In this House Mr Hide enjoys not the one man, one vote, but an MMP form of Parliament. I from the M\u0101ori Party am more than happy to go with the one man, one vote in the seats in the House\u2014this person sitting near me won his or her seat, this person won his or her seat, I won my seat, Mr Flavell won his seat, and Mrs Katene won her seat. That is what we call one man, one vote. There are no list seats in the M\u0101ori Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, the ACT party, which talks all about one man, one vote, has had only one person elected into Parliament and he is Mr Rodney Hide. Who are the other people in that party? I happen to know that Mr Garrett\u2019s wife did not even vote for him. So I want people to realise that the one man, one vote that Mr Rodney Hide espouses in the Chamber is simply not the democracy that he and his colleagues enjoy. Seriously, who on earth in their right mind would vote Roger Douglas back into Parliament! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f615eb2e4349b8aeca1e10449a0af8\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Sir Roger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66ef077518f4af1bea241f18f6067d9\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: Sir Roger, my apologies. The ACT Party is in Parliament because Rodney Hide won his seat and was able to bring in a suite of candidates. That had nothing to do with one man, one vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI think that we need to clarify these issues, because when we call for M\u0101ori seats in Auckland it is not because we are after a special vote, and M\u0101ori who would get to vote for the M\u0101ori seats would get to vote for only those M\u0101ori seats. They would not get to vote for the M\u0101ori seats and for some other seats as well. That is one man, one vote; one woman, one vote. It does not really matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI think that Mr Jones needs to sit down with his colleagues and clarify the situation. The Labour Party supports M\u0101ori seats\u2014with an \u201Cs\u201D; it is more than one. We are not supposed to stand up and say \u201Conly one\u201D. The Labour Party also supports the principle of mana whenua. It has said so on numerous occasions. I think if Mr Jones is to achieve the aspiration of getting to the very top of the Labour Party tree within the next 9 years, because Labour will be in Opposition right up to that time, he really does need to clarify to the fullest his position on these very, very important issues. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you e te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Goodnight. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could I suggest that the Committee rise at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b9500e0d8942ee9005d3e353ec47fa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we cannot, because we are in a time-limited debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00229ec7578692904c7e9adaa60a22fc2aed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ec7578692904c7e9adaa60a22fc2aed\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on this bill, because the time is not yet up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091574f96ccc0aa645d892c1e138d7f69184000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223955d262c5984f7da8b63b3dfa9e305c\u0022\u003ETuesday, 15 September 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b950cb782bd4faca978c98c2112ba4f\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 16 September 2009)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7b77d0fabec4858852a7b487471e2e7\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1bd2e7006c54cd49a718d817b29162e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214beca2a2c804ab8a042dcfeeb0409ef\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022855e75c6154642778024de5a1014a398\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022855e75c6154642778024de5a1014a398\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We are here to fight the good fight for those in Auckland who are unhappy with the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. This morning I will talk on a very serious issue; I think the Committee finished on a rather trivial note last night, with banter across the Chamber and a fair amount of screaming. I want to bring the debate back to the serious issue of M\u0101ori representation, and I want to make things clear. Last night I heard Hone Harawira say that Labour was sitting back on its hands and doing nothing about M\u0101ori representation. Well, I do not think Hone Harawira is a member of our Labour caucus, which debated this issue long and hard and which has always held firm to the need for M\u0101ori to be represented in this Auckland bill. Labour has always believed that M\u0101ori should have seats on the Auckland Council, like in Parliament itself. We have always supported the M\u0101ori seats in Parliament. The poor M\u0101ori Party over there has been trumped again by Rodney Hide, who has said that its voice does not matter, and that it can come up by means of other mechanisms through the Local Government Act. Well, the Local Government Act actually talks about social and cultural well-being, and we should go back to those fundamental tenets of the last raft of changes to the Local Government Act, which ensured that M\u0101ori, in the context of cultural and social well-being, had a voice on the council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe also advocated for 25 seats on the Auckland Council. The current National-ACT Government is talking about only 20 seats, but we think that is bizarre, because it would mean that there are more MPs in Auckland than there are people on the Auckland City super-council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa7d7b4ae54442e68a0130d409e9fc5b\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What about your local boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9c53fcf63647d1841c7bd1bcf82a75\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Nikki Kaye that that is our position; we have always said there would be one plan. Last night Nikki asked whether we were against a unitary authority. We brought about these changes. We set up the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance. Labour led that action. We are pleased to be part of the next raft of reforms, but we would have done it very differently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIn the minority report we are very clear that we support M\u0101ori seats. I point out something to new members in the Chamber who think this is a trivial issue. I will talk about those who submitted to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. There were 287 submissions on separate M\u0101ori representation on the Auckland super-city council. Only 83 of those 287 submissions opposed M\u0101ori representation, which is 60 percent support. The Government is really very foolish to ignore that level of support. Although it says it has listened and made changes, it has skirted around this change. When Rodney Hide refused to support M\u0101ori representation on the super-city, he really trumped the M\u0101ori Party. He saw to it, and National supported this, that the good constituents of Rodney held greater weight than M\u0101ori in Auckland. Well, I think that issue will come back in the general election, after the local body elections in 2010. The issue will rise up and show the National Government that it has made a fundamental error. I mention that Mr Key said nothing was set in stone. Well, a trader\u2014which is what Mr Key fundamentally was, by profession\u2014would of course say that nothing was set in stone. Of course he said that National would keep the door open and keep considering the issue; he wants to appeal to everybody on all sides of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAnother loser here is Mr Tau Henare, and I feel sorry for him. He tried to get support within his own party, which harks back to the support that Georgina te Heuheu was allowed to show in respect of the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Act in 2001, when she was allowed to cross the floor to support that issue of M\u0101ori representation. It is interesting to see all the new members in the Chamber who think they know it all. They were not around in those days, when that context of the debate that Mita Ririnui brought to the House was very bitter. We heard a race-based debate in the Chamber in 2001 when National members, then in Opposition, made outrageous remarks asking why we needed M\u0101ori representation. They ignored the views of people like Judge Peter Trapski, who said that without M\u0101ori representation in the Chamber or any form of protection for them we would never get M\u0101ori views before the House. Look at what we have now with the M\u0101ori Party, the M\u0101ori MPs, and our M\u0101ori Labour MPs in the House. The new MPs forget that environment, where we broke the ice. Of course, it was Labour, again, that entrenched those seats on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council and allowed Georgina te Heuheu to cross the floor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt was quite interesting to hear her say at the time: \u201CThe issue of representation for M\u0101ori in local government is a significant issue, and not just for M\u0101ori.\u201D This is not an issue that we are asking just our M\u0101ori MPs to stand up and take a call on; it is one that we all must speak out on. \u201CIt has been around for a long time, as evidenced by a notice in the Auckland provincial government\u2019s Gazette of Saturday, 6 May 1867, when J. Williamson, the superintendent of the Auckland Province, gave notice that he had appointed Paore Tuhaere of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua to give advice to himself and the Auckland executive council on matters relating to the M\u0101ori people of the province of Auckland. It is a significant issue.\u201D Tau Henare, Georgina te Heuheu, and other M\u0101ori MPs in National know that it is a significant issue. It will not go away. Georgina te Heuheu said herself that M\u0101ori will make sure that the issue of representation in any form of governance will not go away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI believe that if John Key does not take cognisance of this, that issue will be the demise of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, which was a wonderful opportunity for reform. It was a wonderful opportunity, and Labour was behind it; Labour instigated the royal commission. The royal commission report itself said that there should be three M\u0101ori seats on the super-city council, but ACT, with Rodney Hide\u2019s \u201Cone vote\u201D mantra, has won the war with National. I find it absolutely astonishing that a coalition partner that sits with the local government portfolio\u2014a major portfolio\u2014outside of Cabinet can wield such power and influence over National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis issue will not go away. We in Labour will make sure that this issue does not go away. We understand that the M\u0101ori Party members are put in a dreadful position here, but they have lost. They have been rolled by Rodney Hide, and if that is a mana-enhancing position for them, I think they will have a great deal of problems as a M\u0101ori Party to find their place in the sun and to find support when they go out in the next election. They have been rolled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EPaul Hutchison is another loser. I feel a bit sorry for Dr Paul Hutchison; boundary issues were a big issue for him. He will be rolled. I also think that Georgina te Heuheu must be hurting. She must have put up a fight in caucus, with Tau Henare, but she got rolled. The National Government is saying it has a mana-enhancing relationship with the M\u0101ori Party, and this is a major signal. This major initiative could have been so positive for all of Auckland and for other regions that are now looking at how they could reform local and regional council governance. An opportunity has been lost. We will be putting up further amendments that ensure statutory recognition of mana whenua on the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis is a big issue. We will be supporting it, and I think the people of New Zealand will show that the Government got it wrong on this issue. It will come back to bite the Government, not next year in the local body elections, but\u2014once we see that this rushed legislation has gone through\u2014in the 2011 election. It is rushed legislation; here we are in urgency. When we look at major reform of local government in Australia, we see that it took 3 years to get it right. Why are we rushing through this reform just to get it in by 2010? This is the way that mistakes are made. It will come back to bite the Government in the 2011 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa96ca002cd348739405e31b2a7b3ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa96ca002cd348739405e31b2a7b3ffb\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that Ms Chadwick\u2019s speech presented the whole debate around Auckland, in terms of boundaries and M\u0101ori seats, as being all about political winners and losers, rather than being about trying to get the best result for Auckland. Let me explain the issues, and also claim a bottle of wine from Mr David Cunliffe, given his bet last night. I hope it is a decent bottle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I pay my respects to the M\u0101ori Party members with regard to the way in which they have conducted themselves over this debate. It has been very, very difficult for them. Dr Pita Sharples has been a fantastic person to work with on this issue. I also criticise Labour. For 9 years Labour members never mentioned M\u0101ori seats on any Auckland council ever. I also point out that the issue has come before the various councils of Auckland\u2014including Manukau City Council, Waitakere City Council, and North Shore City Council\u2014and those councils have consistently voted down having M\u0101ori seats. I find Labour\u2019s argument in favour of having M\u0101ori seats to be a case of crocodile tears, because for 9 years Labour did nothing. When the issue first came up from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, those members were deathly silent. Shane Jones went out and told everyone that Labour would never do the M\u0101ori seats, and it was only when the M\u0101ori Party became seized by the idea and there was a h\u012Bkoi that Labour came out in favour of having M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me also deal with the issue. The royal commission came up with a proposal for seats from the general wards being M\u0101ori wards, and one mana whenua seat. There would be 20 councillors, with 10 of them elected at large. I note that although the Labour members say that we must follow the royal commission in all matters, they are very silent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022627781139f0a40f5ae0944322db935d6\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You supported M\u0101ori seats in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824e4b05505f43f89f255ac3ee87bcc7\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285a5a1b733f443729ad3abcee6cf4d44\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You supported entrenchment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae3c425d45024910802904f525355dab\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022297436e05f3241b59dc7f0bf5c64c4db\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a principle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d586cd4aae8747b1999e35226430a15e\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022630f063375114689ab2ef1b051529e0e\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Is that an ACT principle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f9cdbdb10f4095a4fc8fc639abad4b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I will tell the member why. Poor Mr Twyford; let us just concentrate on Auckland. Let me explain this. We have 16 hours for the debate on the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. If the member listens, he can then take a call and criticise my speech. Government members never called out when Steve Chadwick was giving her speech. If Mr Twyford listens, he can then take a call and explain why I am wrong and present his point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe member should just let me explain the position on agreeing with the M\u0101ori Party on the entrenchment of M\u0101ori seats at the time of the election. There is a 75 percent entrenchment for the general seats, but there is only a 50 percent entrenchment for the M\u0101ori seats. Tariana Turia came to me at the time of the last election and asked me what I thought of that. I said that I was opposed to the M\u0101ori seats in Parliament in principle, but that if we are to have them, then the rules should be the same. I agreed with her and I said that consistently. I believe that is a consistent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248451ebbe8ba4f39a3f901ed9f08b32a\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Dancing on the head of a pin\u2014that\u2019s what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c091dac8351436abeb13c39a53411b1\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a consistent position and, unlike Mr Twyford, I have never changed my position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe got to the point where the royal commission had advocated having two M\u0101ori seats and one mana whenua seat. We discussed that matter with Pita Sharples, and he came to the Cabinet committee and suggested that it did not go far enough and that there were questions about the electoral roll. We felt that, however one looked at it, we were trying to address the governance of Auckland, and that there was a separate issue about how to engage with M\u0101ori, and mana whenua and iwi, right across local government. Also, there was no consistent view at that time on how to provide for M\u0101ori seats, which made it quite difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOn 6 April Cabinet made the decision not to have M\u0101ori seats, and then Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua and Tainui proposed the idea of an electoral college. I would be very interested in Labour\u2019s view of this, as to whether it supports M\u0101ori seats. I would be interested in Labour\u2019s view as to whether it would agree with the proposal of Tainui and Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, which then became the proposal to the Government, to have an electoral college that would decide, for two M\u0101ori seats, who was mana whenua. Candidates would put their names forward to the electoral college, and this college of wise heads would vet them as to their mana whenua status. If members think about it, they will see that if we are to have mana whenua we have to have a mechanism by which mana whenua can be identified, one way or another. It can be either by a certification process or by an external process. Of course, the concern always was mana whenua. The M\u0101ori Party pointed out that M\u0101ori who have come to Auckland are actually like everyone else: the concern was with the historical and cultural attachment to Auckland. That seemed to me as Minister, and to the Government, to be a very tough ask because there would be a non-elected group, if you like, deciding who could stand for a particular seat. The proposal from the M\u0101ori Party was, first of all, that all M\u0101ori on the M\u0101ori electoral roll could vote for the mana whenua candidate, and then, after feedback from other Ministers, the M\u0101ori Party suggested it could be from the general roll. That seemed to create its own problem, because we would then have candidates who were not answering to mana whenua or indeed to M\u0101ori but to everyone who was voting for them, and although they might be screened on the basis of their tribal affiliations, their voters would be coming more widely. This was not easy politics. It is not an easy issue. Whichever way we jump, people will be upset. It was a tough call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMr Cunliffe made a bet with me last night. The Prime Minister came to see me on 3 June to explore how M\u0101ori seats could be provided for, and I explained how it could be done and the various options that were on the table. I explained to him privately that the implication of doing that would be that I could not be in this chair\u2014that National, the M\u0101ori Party, and the Labour Party could have the numbers but I could not be in this chair. I did not regard that as a threat. I never went public. It was an implication of the decision. When I went to Cabinet, contrary to what Mr Cunliffe said, I did not know which way it would go. In fact, I invited Dr Pita Sharples to give a joint Cabinet paper with me because I felt it was unfair for me to take his words and interpret them as my paper, and I wanted to put the best debate and argument before Cabinet and to take my chips accordingly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut here is the issue. No one has denied M\u0101ori a seat at the council table\u2014no one. In fact, there are five M\u0101ori councillors in Auckland now and two of them are deputy mayors. The analysis over the last 20 years shows that in Auckland M\u0101ori get elected roughly in proportion to the proportion that they stand for seats. That is, there is no systematic bias against M\u0101ori candidates, which I find quite remarkable. It concerns me, though, that if a mana whenua candidate is standing in a general ward, that candidate is actually responding to everyone in that ward, not just to M\u0101ori and not just to mana whenua. The candidate has to be broader in outlook. But in a way, from the point of view of the council, that seems to be an inclusive way of doing it. Certainly, when I visited Porirua City Council, which came out against M\u0101ori seats, that is precisely the way that council finds it to be. I would like to see the new council building up a good relationship so that specifically we can have a relationship with local iwi and mana whenua, but the idea of councillors representing, in an inclusive way, all of Auckland seems to be excellent to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI also do not have a dark view of Aucklanders, now or in the future\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010d5fae3fcd49c7bb871bff00ca85f6\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3bc8df540804d97993322ed580c02f0\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a dark view that they will somehow look at a person\u2019s race, tribe, or skin colour and on that basis decide not to vote for that candidate. Certainly the evidence does not back that up. The Labour members are saying that somehow Aucklanders are racist. They are saying Aucklanders will not vote for a M\u0101ori candidate, because the candidate is M\u0101ori, so we have to have special seats, because Aucklanders are not reasonable people. Labour members are also saying, in my view, that M\u0101ori cannot succeed in a general seat. I think that is rubbish too. I understand the argument that a M\u0101ori succeeding in a general seat has to respond to the general concerns, but I do not believe that M\u0101ori will not get elected. My priority as Minister of Local Government is to get better engagement in local government. I think we are achieving that in this Government. We are letting local government get on and do it rather than having the ninth floor tell them what they can and cannot do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI make this point too. Pita Sharples came to me late one night and we had some very, very good discussions. My respect for Dr Sharples grew enormously through this experience. He never raised his voice; he never got angry. He just discussed it with me. He asked me what would convince me to agree to M\u0101ori seats. I found that question very, very challenging, because in a way I had a strong principle that said no. I sat there and looked at him and told him that a good principle would do it. He asked what I meant. I said the principle that is driving me in this is that each person should have a vote of equal value, that every position should be open to a free and open contest, and that we should not have privileged or special seats decided by a tribe, the landed gentry, or powerful business. Yes, I understand that M\u0101ori have a 1,000-year connection to Auckland. But actually a long connection has been fought with blood and tears to allow Jack to be as good as his master politically: that every vote counts the same, that anyone can have a crack, and that anyone can get elected. It has a way of keeping our political power\u2014so we say\u2014somewhat humble and respectful. As soon as we allow a privilege\u2014that is to say, a local tribe deciding who the candidate can be\u2014we are powering up a privileged group in that they have a power given to them that no one else would have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI said that that would be my principle and asked him what his would be. Dr Sharples said it would be two things: mana and achieving representation. Let us deal with representation, which is a serious issue in local government, not just for M\u0101ori, but for all groups. The issue came out yesterday, as the Associate Minister of Local Government pointed out, that I favour the single transferable vote and councillors elected at large, because I thought that would give us a more representative council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf177cd1db443a1be1e7572f3a376a5\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to vote for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1d8d9e915c4166982233bba5632ac6\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Phil Twyford that of course I will not vote for it. When the member has been here for a while, he will understand that there is such a thing as Cabinet collective responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225110872e48c047eb930f0b6c41af3dc2\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What about your ACT colleagues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a920dc21e2c647d18a3df9dd0039323b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Gosh! He worries about my ACT colleagues. I would worry about the Labour caucus if I were him. I would worry about what Mr Phil Goff was up to, not about us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe representation issue, I believe, is of concern not just to M\u0101ori. It is actually about representation of the various groups that make up a city or a region. The second issue was mana, and I agree with that. I believe that we face that challenge in local government and in central government, whether we like it or not. If we are to succeed as a country we will have to understand better the indigenous values, culture, and spiritualities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256f7d7daca03446bb6c369f8f6b0d75b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What happens if none are elected\u2014not one M\u0101ori person on the entire Auckland Council? What happens then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9bc5d3cab8b42dfaeffbb98a9128a46\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Ms Dalziel that I would like to be in this situation: oftentimes in a democracy we get results that we do not agree with\u2014Heaven knows we had Helen Clark as Prime Minister for 9 years\u2014but we can learn to live with it because we see it as a fair and open process. That is what is important. I know that the Labour members love gerrymandering elections to get a result they would like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9300984e09a402bb528651ed2c49402\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ae1e3314bb4e8cb9f8de87a7676158\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The member will get the opportunity to speak. I am answering her question if she lets me. We have a system whereby, yes, we often get results that we do not like, but the great thing is that we can accept the process. I know that the Labour members love to screw this round and say that they want a Chinese person, so we should have a Chinese seat. They would like their candidate, Len Brown, to be the candidate for mayor, so they will screw the seat. They would like their member to stay as Prime Minister, so they will take some taxpayers\u2019 money. I say this: at the end of the day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f108b015482e49aea4675ae8fb161adb\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say for the Treaty relationship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022624fce7fc43c43d3bbd5d520df520519\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Ms Dalziel that it says two things\u2014I am getting a lot of heckling from the Labour caucus. The Treaty actually says in article 1 that there is one Sovereign, in article 2 that there is respect for property rights, and in article 3 that there is equal citizenship. That is exactly what the ACT Party stands for. That is exactly what we are promoting. As regards the ACT Party being the \u201C1 percent party\u201D, or whatever, I say that actually the Government and Parliament are deciding this, not the ACT Party. I am sorry that Labour members are not used to being in Opposition, but they will get used to it over the next 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFinally, I say that it is open to any council to have M\u0101ori seats any time they choose. I note that Labour\u2019s candidate, Len Brown, is standing to be the mayor of the new Auckland Council, before we have even passed the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022adf4ba8ab6644c688ea7dc361527b9ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adf4ba8ab6644c688ea7dc361527b9ae\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E One of the critical areas where the Government has got it wrong with this legislation is in relation to the voting system. The Green Party and many other individuals and organisations in Auckland strongly believe that it is absolutely vital that the single transferable vote system (STV) be used from the time of next year\u2019s local body elections. I have an amendment in front of the Committee to that effect, and I encourage all other parties to consider supporting it, including ACT and the honourable Minister Rodney Hide, who has just repeated again that he does actually support STV. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill as it stands adopts the first-past-the-post system for the election of the mayor, councillors, and local board members. I propose that we use STV instead for all three categories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIt is a real pity that a majority on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee went with first past the post, as progress towards the super-city presents us all with a prime opportunity to provide much better democratic processes for Auckland, rather than sticking with an old system that has mostly failed minority interests. For example, we were told during the select committee hearings that no M\u0101ori person has ever been elected on to the Auckland City Council in its entire history. What an indictment on the voting processes used to date, and on the power of P\u0101keh\u0101 wealth and privilege that has allowed this to happen. This is a true relic of our colonial past. Using first past the post for the new arrangements will serve only to help maintain that power and privilege at a time when not only M\u0101ori but also other so-called minority groups, such as Pasifika and Asian peoples, are becoming a greater and greater proportion of our city\u2019s population. Lianne Dalziel asked the Minister a very good question just before: what happens if there are no M\u0101ori councillors on the entire council? That is totally possible if we continue with the first-past-the-post voting system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe single transferable vote system is a far more democratic way of ensuring that all citizens will have their voices heard and their representatives elected. The majority of those who made submissions to the select committee on this question of voting systems supported STV. STV ensures that elected candidates, while not necessarily being the preferred candidate of the majority of voters, at least have majority support. It works by voters ranking candidates in order of preference\u2014one, two, three, and so on\u2014with the candidate with the lowest number of votes being eliminated and that candidate\u2019s votes, showing second preferences and so on, being transferred to other candidates until the quota is reached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFor example, with STV the new Mayor of Auckland could be voted in only with the majority of voters\u2019 preferences\u2014that is, with at least 50 percent plus 1\u2014and not by a minority of voters, which could happen very easily under first past the post. We are talking about one of the most powerful positions in the whole country. It is very important that we get it right. What could happen under the first past the post system, for example, is a result like the one that happened in the Rodney District mayoral election in 2007, when the mayor was elected with the support of just over 20 percent of the voters and with less than 10 percent of registered electors declaring their active support for that candidate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EGiven that the Government has made the outrageous decision to refuse to allow guaranteed M\u0101ori seats on the new council, it is even more critical that we have STV to maximise tangata whenua participation and representation. Although STV is at times derided because it is slightly more complex than first past the post, there is no evidence that is has discouraged voter participation in other areas like Wellington, where it has been used for local body elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party believes that in the longer term STV may well increase voter participation as voters not only come to understand how the system works in practice but also see that it provides more legitimacy to local government by providing representatives who more truly typify their interests and aspirations. STV is fair, because it is proportional. It is positive, because nobody\u2019s vote is wasted. It is representative, allowing greater diversity among those elected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis legislation is the biggest change in local government arrangements ever made in this country, at least that I know of. The Government is manifestly proud of what it is trying to accomplish. I challenge National and ACT to think again on the question of STV. I understand that National is genuinely keen to make the most of this dramatic new arrangement for Auckland. Why not use the best possible voting system right from the start, rather than sticking with a process that is a poor second-best?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0fc4a7e15314223be69f9698f2bd218\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0fc4a7e15314223be69f9698f2bd218\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I was going to start with some comments on the Hon Steve Chadwick\u2019s speech, but I think I will go back to front and comment on my friend and colleague Sue Bradford about the single transferable vote (STV). She has laudable principles around proportional representation\u2014and I think everybody in the House enjoys proportional representation\u2014but for her to say that STV will be some sort of panacea to the issue of M\u0101ori representation is bit wide of the mark. I say that because the introduction of STV in our district health board elections was supposed to give us a lot of M\u0101ori, Pacific Island, and other representation, but it has not delivered in terms of M\u0101ori representation. That is the issue that I have in the back of my mind, which is that in terms of M\u0101ori representation we have not yet found what I think is a system that maximises proportional representation. I do not think we will have it with STV. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ETo go backwards, I think that there is some history that people ought to know about M\u0101ori seats in general, in terms of where they came from. They were ostensibly to shut down M\u0101ori participation in our new democracy in the 1870s. They were not there because somebody felt sorry for M\u0101ori. They were there because M\u0101ori were the largest landowners, and it was only landowners who could vote in our new country way back in the 1870s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280c5f4ffc5d64821a8fc3aa4907343f2\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I think you\u2019ve got that slightly wrong, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a111250723463b945e883dcfc8636f\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd58d72b262498093a2019c43b705d6\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I think you\u2019ve got that slightly wrong, because they were collective landowners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8919977e18240c9aa7db3e31ce9f58b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I have it wrong. Gee, how terrible of me! I have actually got it wrong, I am being told by that member, who has had a M\u0101ori seat and who understands the whole issue of M\u0101ori representation! But that is OK. Silly me! I thought I had something to say, but maybe not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI suppose therein lies the problem with the Labour Party. Its members love continually to lecture other people about the issue of representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b909e3e2bd465ab6df9f94046e8d77\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What is your problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9acafa7db3547e99d3711e4b853c548\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Let me tell that unfortunate member. The issue of M\u0101ori representation was that M\u0101ori had the right to vote because they were all landowners. It does not matter whether they were collective landowners; that is splitting hairs. The fact of the matter is that for a long, long time\u2014right up until 1938\u2014when M\u0101ori elected their representatives to the House of Representatives they did it by a voice vote. They were not even allowed to have a secret ballot. Up until 1938 people would go along to the polling booth and verbally tell the registrar whom they wanted to vote for. The first time that M\u0101ori had the choice to partake in a secret ballot was in 1938. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of crowing about the 2001 local government legislation, and I want to put on record that the genesis for that actually came from the Hon Tuariki Delamere. He was a former Minister of Immigration. It was he who introduced to the House the genesis for the 2001 legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u00222aabd0dcc62640619c5c72e3f259c652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aabd0dcc62640619c5c72e3f259c652\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f76f4884df48c08e4713fa2d8ef96f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am not saying that I should get a call before my colleague, but the Minister got three calls in succession. I can understand that. I know that the rules say he can have up to four, I think. But I think it is a wee bit on the nose that the Minister got three calls in a row, and little old poor me gets only one, halfway through\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b4123de46c46b3abb0459b242fb7e3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that whether he is little, poor, old, or whatever it is, is irrelevant. All members stand before the Chair as equals. The member himself has had three calls in this debate, and when I had a flick down my record I saw that the Hon Mita Ririnui has had none. The House has a fine tradition of giving new speakers priority over those who have had several calls. That is the tradition. The final point I make to the member is that the right to decide who has the call rests with the Chair, the Chair alone, and it is undisputed. As in football, I have never yet seen a decision by the ref overturned by a good argument. I make the point to the member that he will never see a point of order in this House overturn a call, so do not make that point again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d957a77cc6cb46f6a66f2099469f314a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think you did not hear me right. I was not disputing the fact that Mita Ririnui was given the call; I did not say that I should be before him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285f8cdc7c4c5492eaff3b2e91d252382\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to prolong this, but I say to the member that he has been here long enough. If the member takes a point of order on the calls, he is, by implication, clearly challenging the Chairperson\u2019s decision. There can be no other reason for doing it. I called Mita Ririnui and I explained to the member so that the member got some of my thinking as to why I did that. I restate the point that the member has had three calls in this debate and Mita Ririnui has had none. I think it is only fair that members who have not had a call in this debate should have one. That is the end of the matter; I do not want any more points of order on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cf2849fa872408c90836737572a29a4\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for that fine ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f38b00bf7e40e6987d4e8eab15d76d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Members are not supposed to refer back to the Chair\u2019s rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229864425f0730490eb32701fe1c9a2067\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me. I actually want to thank the Hon Tau Henare for his contribution to the debate. There was not much about his speech that I agreed with, but I think one point he made he was actually quite accurate on, which was his views on the single transferable vote (STV) system. The member made the point that regardless of the fact that STV is adopted in our local district health board elections, not one M\u0101ori has been elected through that process. That needs to be pointed out in the Committee. In the first round of district health board elections no M\u0101ori were elected, and I think in the last round maybe one or two were elected. That is not a very good average. I thank the Hon Tau Henare also for his recall of the history of M\u0101ori representation in Parliament. I was hoping he would talk about the journey he spoke about when he took a call last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e574f8712294d3da2bdab3583b56ac2\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I didn\u2019t get the call, did I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d0e701273014623a6195aab3a9ead98\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member had plenty of time to touch on the matter but he never took the opportunity. The member talked about taking the people of Auckland\u20141.25 million people\u2014on a journey. They had not signed up or bought tickets to go on the journey, but they would have been dragged along anyway. Of those people going on the journey, 135,000 happened to be M\u0101ori, but the journey had no destination. The member would not tell us the destination. It is no wonder that there are issues around M\u0101ori representation on the Auckland super-city council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI have a lot of respect for the member. He was a very fine Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs; he certainly knew his job. However, he should be consistent in his views. He expressed a very strong view against the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide. I wondered to myself what it is about the word \u201CRodney\u201D that sends fear through the National Government. Every time Rodney makes a statement, the Government wants to comply. When Rodney District Council protested about the northern boundaries, the Government listened. National members spent so many hours in the Chamber last night trying to convince themselves that they listened throughout this whole process. The problem is that they cannot convince the people of Auckland of that. The people of Auckland are waiting for the Minister of Local Government to front up and tell them why he did not listen to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI heard a number of National speakers in the Chamber last night make the point that the Government listened. The only person who made some relevant points around the consultation process over the last few months was the Hon Tau Henare. But he was given an impossible mission. It was his responsibility to go out, take charge, and facilitate a process to hear submissions from M\u0101ori communities. He did a very good job, a very fine job, and a very thorough job, but National did not tell him that it did not really matter because the decision had been made. So Tau Henare launched an attack on the Minister of Local Government\u2014and rightly so. I know he has not changed his mind, but he is a loyal member and he has signed up to the arrangements that the Government has entered into with the ACT Party. That being the case, the Hon Tau Henare will live by the decision of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI wonder about the so-called process the Government adopted in terms of the Auckland Council. According to the Government the process does not wander far from the process we used in respect of the Bay of Plenty Regional Council issues on M\u0101ori representation. The consultation process on that matter was thorough. It actually took 9 years, not 9 months. The Bay of Plenty councillors travelled to every corner of the electorate and even contracted a retired District Court judge, Peter Trapski, to conduct the hearings. To cut a long story short, the report back to the council recommended the establishment of a M\u0101ori constituency, based on the same formula for the selection of wards as that adopted by central government for determining the number of M\u0101ori seats in Parliament. Following a very long debate at the local level for the Bay of Plenty and Waiariki, the bill covered the tribal confederations of Te Arawa, Mataatua, parts of Tainui, Horouta, and probably even further than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003ESomething like 300 hap\u016B were involved in the consultation rounds. That is a pretty overwhelming statistic when one thinks about it. As a result of that, I, as the member for Waiariki at the time, introduced the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Bill to the House. It was then that we became aware of the anti-M\u0101ori views of the Minister of Local Government, the Hon Rodney Hide. I heard his speech this morning\u2014he took three calls\u2014and I will go back to the Hansard later on today, because what he said today is exactly what he said then. He is fundamentally ideologically opposed to M\u0101ori representation at any level. I wonder what it is about his stance on M\u0101ori representation that has not sunk in for the M\u0101ori members of the National Government. I wonder what it is about his position on M\u0101ori representation that has not sunk into the minds of the M\u0101ori Party members. I say to my whanaunga from Ng\u0101ti Rangiwewehi, Te Arawa, that this is an opportunity for that member to stand up in this House and challenge the Government and the Minister of Local Government. He should tell the Government what the people of Waiariki think about the actions and decisions of the Minister of Local Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI challenge the member for Waiariki, because during my term as the member for Waiariki, he challenged me many times; I did not mind that. He challenged me on my stand on the foreshore and seabed issue. I chose not to run away; I chose to stay and fight the fight. I chose to take on the hard stuff, not like others who refuse to stay and fight. I say to the member for Waiariki that this is the opportunity, and I will give him all the help he requires, because he will need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI also heard the Minister of Local Government say he had a number of meetings with the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. What he said about that meeting, and what the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs said publicly, varied quite considerably. I wonder whether the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs should have stayed at home and sent the member for Waiariki instead, because the outcome might have been different, and it might have been better. To accompany him, he should have taken the member for Tai Tokerau, Hone Harawira. I know that Rodney Hide would not have patronised those two members. He would not have redefined their mana-enhancing philosophy. That is exactly what the Minister of Local Government did in respect of the Auckland legislation. He rolled them. He convinced them that what he was about to do was good for them. He told them that, in terms of M\u0101ori representation, they are equal to everybody else. Well, the statistics say otherwise. What is it about the matter that he does not understand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003ETau Henare said that STV has never produced strong M\u0101ori representation\u2014or any M\u0101ori representation at all. I got the impression that he was saying he was still in favour of designated M\u0101ori seats. He gave no other example apart from STV, and his stand on the Minister\u2019s decision on M\u0101ori seats seems to be well positioned. I wish he would get up in the House and reiterate that. I know that my whanaunga from Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, is not happy with this. She is very unhappy with this. I have heard her take a number of calls in the Parliament over the last few weeks and indirectly oppose the Government\u2019s stand on M\u0101ori representation for Auckland City. I know that on the marae 2 weeks ago she again indirectly opposed the Government\u2019s decision. What is it about my whanaunga from Ng\u0101ti Awa that prevents them from taking the same stand, getting up in the House and taking a call, like the rest of us, and expressing honest opinions about the lack of consideration for M\u0101ori representation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that during the Bay Of Plenty Regional Council consultation rounds, the number of submissions made was, I understand, 278, and in the electorate there were 287. The difference here is that probably about 1 percent were opposed, from the normal groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7948d4d9cbc42df8b14e5fb30c36897\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7948d4d9cbc42df8b14e5fb30c36897\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard a lot about M\u0101ori representation today, but I would like to focus on the matter of the local boards of Auckland Council. They are at the heart of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill and I think it is really important that we start looking at some of the provisions that relate to them. You see, Labour members have stood up today and confirmed that they support a unitary authority, but the Labour Party has shifted significantly in terms of the number of local boards it wants. Mr Twyford came out at the beginning of the process and said Labour wanted six to 12, but when Labour members started to go around the communities of Auckland, they realised that, actually, the only party that was campaigning to get rid of communities by advocating six to 12 local boards was in fact the Labour Party. Many members on the opposite side of the Chamber\u2014and I know this for a fact\u2014then said to their members on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee that there was no way they would support having only six to 12 local entities. So Labour members changed their position and moved to advocating 10 to 12. They shifted further\u2014they wanted 14 to 20 boards, and that is the position in the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI have a question for Mr Hawkins, who is sitting in the back row opposite. There is a campaign within Papakura called \u201CSave Papakura\u201D. Under the Labour Party model we do not know whether Papakura would have a local board. So Mr Hawkins will have to stand up and defend the Labour Party\u2019s position with regard to local boards. I believe that the Labour Party supports having a unitary authority and close to 20 local boards. If Labour actually supports only 14 boards, then I would like some of the Labour members across the Chamber to stand up and say whether they support 14 or 20. But, you know, we will not hear that because Labour members support having 20 local boards. So we are here, on a historic day for Auckland, and the members opposite actually support the majority of this legislation. Labour does have some issues with a few things such as M\u0101ori representation, but Labour members, rather than supporting the legislation they actually believe in\u2014for an event people have been waiting for for 50 years\u2014prefer to sit on the sideline and not support this bill, a bill that will be good for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other major inconsistency in the Labour Party\u2019s position is around the number of councillors. In Labour\u2019s minority report, which I will quote back to them, they say they are concerned and would like to have more councillors so that they represent smaller areas. How does that match Labour\u2019s local board policy? It is totally inconsistent. We are hearing inconsistency from the opposite side of the Chamber, and that is why this debate is dragging on. People listening are hearing about everything but the majority of the content of the bill. Labour members have travelled around Auckland and realised that the writing is on the wall. There are many communities that want to be represented and want local boards, and Labour members have realised they had to shift their position. Labour members want a unitary authority, and their minority report is filled with inconsistencies, like their position on councillors. I will stop talking about the Labour Party, because I think everyone knows that Labour members are standing up and opposing this bill for political reasons only, not because of what is best for Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThis is a historic day for Auckland. National and ACT have listened. We have gone to the people of Auckland and listened to them in a 2-year process that was started by the previous Government. To those members opposite who argue that there should be a referendum, I say that the royal commission said that that would be a very superficial thing to happen. We have spent 2 years debating this. We have an 800-page report; 3,500 submissions went to the royal commission; and 2,500 submissions have been received by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. What would it have taken for the Labour Party to actually make a decision on this? Well, it would not have made a decision. Labour members are indecisive. That has been shown by their consistently shifting position regarding the number of local boards. It is shown by their inconsistent position on the number of councillors. Labour did not have the guts to make a decision in the 9 years it spent in Government. National is here and it is making a decision. Yes, it is very hard. Issues of M\u0101ori representation are very hard. Yes, we may not get it completely right. But there have been 2 years of consultation and a lot of money has been spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b89605ad3ce84a2287e2e9e29ca1bf0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b89605ad3ce84a2287e2e9e29ca1bf0d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I tell Nikki Kaye, the member who has just resumed her seat, that many people would prefer that the community boards had some real teeth, and that they were not paupers having to go along to their super-council to get funding. This is one of the problems: they do not have any staff. Nikki Kaye wants to know where we stand on the issue. Well, the Mayor of North Shore stated: \u201CHearings of the Auckland Council Bill promised the Auckland public their big chance to have a say, yet the upshot is an all powerful super Auckland Council, a super Mayor with even more than before, 20 to 30 completely powerless local boards with no statutory powers or resources in their own right,\u201D. That is why we do not support those bodies at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c363cf38f01e4c9bbd8e91e6e7566115\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not in your minority report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cdcd08e007a4521a5013f7fc3051bd1\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We had to deal with the legislation that was put before the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and that person has not learnt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI will talk about the M\u0101ori situation. I wonder what actually happened when members were called to the Cabinet meeting. ACT\u2019s Rodney Hide was there. Then, of course, there was Dr Sharples. What did they say? Why did John Key and the Auckland Cabinet Ministers tell them that Rodney Hide had won and Pita Sharples had lost? What was said? What is the basis for this decision? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWhat was Nikki Kaye told in the caucus about that? She can sit there smiling; I bet she did not get up and challenge John Key one little bit. She would not have got up and had a go. The little parrot from Tauranga would not have said anything, either. He would not have said a thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EAt least Tau Henare is prepared to speak out. He was prepared to call people buffoons, and that rang a real bell with all Aucklanders. You see, Tau Henare is an interesting guy. The only people who do not like him are members of his own party. That is the truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWe have the situation where we have someone just recently out of high school, who has not been around for a long time, come into the Chamber and not tell people what went on to make Cabinet back Rodney Hide. Why did John Key back him? What does Rodney Hide have over John Key that Dr Pita Sharples does not? That is the real key. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EYou see, M\u0101ori people were badly served. Was this issue debated in the caucus? No, National will not debate those sorts of things. Like little lambs, its members go along to a caucus meeting and listen and they are told what to think. They are not allowed to think for themselves. I can remember going to Cabinet meetings and then going to Labour caucus meetings, and sometimes the caucus was very, very vocal. But that is not the case in respect of National. It has a system whereby when Cabinet makes up its mind and when John Key tells its members what to think, then that is what they think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori people of Auckland have been sold down the river, because those members will not stand up for them. We have people like Nikki Kaye who have done the arithmetic and found that there are hardly any M\u0101ori on Waiheke Island. There is not a great percentage of M\u0101ori in the population there, so is she worried about them? No, not at all. All she wanted there was someone to make sure that the footpaths were not changed from white concrete to red concrete. That is what she was on about; those are the realities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWhen Nikki Kaye finds that the going gets tough, she should not try to blame the Opposition for the decisions of a Government that is out of touch with ordinary Aucklanders. Ordinary Aucklanders will punish her, and they will punish other members. If I was Paula Bennett, with a majority of 635, I would be very worried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00225213b88f62c04fe8a4122c749cadc2d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225213b88f62c04fe8a4122c749cadc2d4\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, kia ora t\u0101tau katoa i t\u0113nei ata. I te tuatahi me mihi r\u0101 ki te hunga o roto i a au, i a Te Arawa i t\u0113nei rangi, ng\u0101 taiohi e whakataetae nei i te \u0101huatanga o Te Manu K\u014Drero. He kaupapa nui e h\u0101ngai tonu ana ki t\u0113nei kaupapa i te rangi nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all this morning, Mr Chairman. Firstly, I acknowledge today Te Arawa and the young ones taking part in Te Manu K\u014Drero speech competitions, a great event that relates directly to this matter.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u0100e, n\u014D reira r\u0101 kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. One thing I remember about the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill was the voting pattern. Our voting procedure, for one reason or another, found us all of a sudden speaking M\u0101ori in this Chamber on a regular basis. Funnily enough, I have not heard that pattern repeated since that day, so I hope that in the context of M\u0101ori seats we might think about our voting patterns and the broader issues in respect of te reo M\u0101ori. That is the first issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe second issue is that I was ready to give a lot of kudos to my relation from Ng\u0101ti Ng\u0101raranui the Hon Mita Ririnui, because, in fact, the bill that he spoke about\u2014the bill that he ushered through this Parliament in 2001 on the issue of M\u0101ori representation on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council\u2014set the scene for what the M\u0101ori Party believes is a great pattern to be used throughout the country. The downside is that no one has picked that pattern up, which I suppose is, in a sense, symbolic of what might happen with this particular bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. It sets a scene and it sets a precedent, but it all depends on whether people are willing to follow it. I was not here when Mita Ririnui\u2019s bill was being debated, but I heard about the background: the debate was 9 years ago, and there were battles in this Chamber in respect of M\u0101ori representation. Although there might have been a scrap about the bill, in the end the theory was that it would set a precedent for the country. But that did not happen. It has not happened to date; in fact, M\u0101ori representation was almost got rid of not long ago and cut back to two seats. Now it has stayed the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOne thing I hope that this country comes to grips with is that it is OK to have M\u0101ori representation. I ask people not to be scared and not to worry; we are not going to take over the country\u2014just yet. People do not have to be scared about it. M\u0101ori people actually have some good ideas to contribute to this country, and local body seats are one way of doing that, if we only get a shot at getting in. That is the problem. The practical experience of M\u0101ori people in this country finding a place on local bodies is not too hot. In fact, the Hon Tau Henare\u2014for one reason or another, when it came out in public about how he was thinking on this particular issue\u2014highlighted the experience by talking about the record for Auckland; eight seats, I think it was. M\u0101ori have been elected on to the board eight times. That is all good. Rodney Hide stood up in the Chamber this morning and said it can be done. It can be done, but it relies on so many things. There is the catch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI know that I will probably take a couple of calls on this bill during the course of the day, but I just put in a good word for Tau Henare, Mr Chair. He is trying hard to get a call and I am sure you will think of him in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETo try to set the scene for our other comments I will kick off by saying that on the eve of the Auckland-Northland Local Government New Zealand meeting at Manukau City on 28 August, councillor Richard Northey\u2014a former member of Parliament, I believe, and the chair of the Local Government New Zealand Zone 1\u2014made a statement that I hope all members will heed. He said: \u201CFor the supercity to have a chance of working it is crucial it has the confidence of all significant sectors of Auckland, particularly Maori.\u201D That is what he said. Auckland M\u0101ori have said in no uncertain terms that they need M\u0101ori seats in order to gain the assured, authentic voice of M\u0101ori at the top table of Auckland governance, and that they need to have confidence in the new Auckland Council. It was Mr Northey who raised the lousy record of Auckland voters in electing only eight M\u0101ori to the Auckland City Council throughout its long, 138-year history. I can say, because I am a teacher, that that is an average of one M\u0101ori appointed every 17 years. Despite my relation the Hon Mita Ririnui saying that the M\u0101ori Party members have not been, he should know that we have been in there from the start. He knows that, so I am not too sure why he mentioned that k\u014Drero. We have not been able to support this bill, because it simply does not provide for M\u0101ori representation in the governance structure of the proposed Auckland City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAt the first reading of the bill the M\u0101ori Party raised a number of points in support of dedicated seats. We said that it was a specific recommendation of the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, that it was consistent with current provisions in the Local Government Act 2002, and that dedicated M\u0101ori seats uphold the partnership relationship established between M\u0101ori and the Crown through the Treaty of Waitangi, including the partnership established with mana whenua of Auckland. This position has been underscored by the many public submissions received by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, which has been examining the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, with the report noting that substantial support was received for reserved seats for M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat was some background to the bill, but I want to catch up on a few statements made by the Hon Rodney Hide. He talked about principle. I suppose the bigger principle that I am asking about, that the M\u0101ori Party is asking about\u2014and, indeed, I hear Labour asking about\u2014is whether we accept the notion against the background of Te Tiriti o Waitangi that it is appropriate that M\u0101ori have a say as of right on a city council. That is the issue. Do we accept that principle? Mr Hide is a principled man, and that is the principle we should be talking about, not \u201Cspecial seats\u201D, as he termed it. We are not asking for special seats; we are asking for our seats\u2014mana whenua seats that acknowledge the connection of M\u0101ori of T\u0101maki-makau-rau to the land. That is what we are talking about. That is not a privilege; surely it is a right. Te Tiriti o Waitangi is all about rights and obligations. He actually quoted from Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which was nice. The downside was that it was the English version. If he had looked at the M\u0101ori version\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baede84109624f6c89ab1e7635aead0c\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Which one? There\u2019s more than one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220289cb329d9f40319a124747a27cfa01\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct, and that is the point I am making. If he had looked at the M\u0101ori version, he would know that it is quite significantly different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281925651181a4c08963a41d5e658cfe6\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s more than one M\u0101ori version.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad9f1bf1c884d4d946d0d13ba9d7dd1\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and they all line up. They all line up. That is fine. We will hear from the Treaty expert shortly, if he wishes to take a call! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn rounding up, I say that in Rotorua it is all fine to talk about M\u0101ori representation when it happens, but the problem is that there are too many ifs and probably a lot of buts. The problem is that unless one has a profile and unless one puts up the big dollars, there is no way in hell that M\u0101ori will find a seat on a district council. We must remember that the ones who are there in Rotorua represent everybody, for goodness\u2019 sake! They are not M\u0101ori representatives; in fact, they would probably get killed off because they do not go in hard enough on M\u0101ori representation. Yet our people want to have their say. Why? Because they are linked to that land, they are linked to that area. There is their whakapapa. That is what we are talking about in this bill, and we want to add to the discussion later on with some significant Supplementary Order Papers that will, hopefully, draw a line in the sand in respect of how we view this whole discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI know very much that my time is up, Mr Chairman, and that I probably will not get three calls in a row as I am not yet a Minister, but be that as it may, I am sure that you will look kindly on us throughout the rest of the day. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4a1dcb9a72b4755bb97ae05d11cd4e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4a1dcb9a72b4755bb97ae05d11cd4e4\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Chairman Roy. Tuatahi m\u0101ku, e hiahia ana ki te tautoko i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 whanaunga m\u014D Te Manu K\u014Drero e t\u016B ana i roto o Te Arawa i t\u0113nei rangi. Tuarua, e tautoko ana i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D te tuituiatanga o te reo rangatira ki roto i \u0101 t\u0101tou k\u014Drero i roto i t\u0113nei Whare. Tuatoru, tautoko ana ahau i te k\u014Drero a te whanaunga r\u0101 m\u014D t\u014Dna p\u0101tai e p\u0101 ana ki ng\u0101 t\u016Bru M\u0101ori nei i roto i te t\u0101one nui o T\u0101maki-makau-rau; e mataku ana te K\u0101wanatanga i te aha?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Chairman. First, I want to endorse what that relative said about Te Manu K\u014Drero in Te Arawa today, Secondly I support the interweaving of the chiefly language in our speeches in this Parliament, and thirdly, I support that relative\u2019s statement pertaining to his question about M\u0101ori seats in the super-city of Auckland; what is the Government afraid of?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EPreviously when I have spoken in the House I have spoken about the Treaty of Waitangi being a bridge that crosses over a river. On one bank is the M\u0101ori world, and on the other bank is the P\u0101keh\u0101 world, and the Treaty of Waitangi is the bridge that crosses over the river. It allows people from one side to cross over and engage in the life, customs, culture, and language of the other side. The question is who has crossed the bridge more often. Certainly, just about every M\u0101ori I know has crossed over the bridge into the P\u0101keh\u0101 world and speaks the language, goes to the schools, and understands the culture and customs. But how many times have P\u0101keh\u0101 crossed the other way and become familiar with our language, our customs, and our culture? The answer is very few\u2014very few.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI endorse what Te Ururoa Flavell just said when he asked what the Government is scared of in terms of crossing that bridge. What is the Government scared of? M\u0101ori do not really want to have a big takeover of New Zealand and to make everyone wear piupius and live in n\u012Bkau whare. That is not what we are about. We simply want to be able to engage at a governance level. Be it in the country or be it in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, the city of Auckland, we want to be able to engage as of right, so that we can help people on the P\u0101keh\u0101 side of the river to cross over the bridge and come to understand us as a people and as a culture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI listened to the debate last night and I want to debunk a bit of a myth that flowed through all the speeches. The myth is that the National Government is listening. We heard it last night from Nikki Kaye. She stood up, pointed her finger, tapped her bench, raised her voice, and told us: \u201CWe are listening. We are listening. We are listening.\u201D Simon Bridges was the same; he jumped up and said: \u201CWe are listening. We are listening. We are listening.\u201D The Hon John Carter, aside from running interference for Rodney Hide, deflecting a lot of the criticism of Rodney Hide, stood up and said: \u201CWe are listening. We are listening. We are listening.\u201D The Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman said: \u201CWe are listening. We are listening. We are listening.\u201D It is as if one says it long enough and loud enough, it will become true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003ENational members got into cars in Auckland and drove up the motorway to the Rodney District. They had said that they would cut the Rodney District in half. We must remember that this was at the eleventh hour, before the bill came back to the House to be debated. In fact, it was not at the eleventh hour; it was at about half past 11, or probably 5 to 12. Those members went up there and they realised that they had made a mistake. So they back-pedalled, they backtracked, they flip-flopped, and they said: \u201COops! We have made a mistake. All these people might not vote for us.\u201D It was a political decision. They did a flip-flop, they changed their minds, then they wondered how to put a positive spin on it. They decided to say that they had listened, that they had been listening. If I can say one thing positive about National, it is that it knows how to put a spin on something. It repeats it over and over again, but it is still spin. It is spin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI have a two-word reply to the National Government, if it is genuine about saying that it listened. That two-word reply is \u201CM\u0101ori seats\u201D. I ask Nikki Kaye where the M\u0101ori seats are in T\u0101maki-makau-rau. I ask Simon Bridges where the M\u0101ori seats are in T\u0101maki-makau-rau. Where were those members when 7,000 of us walked in the h\u012Bkoi? Where were those members when 7,000 of us marched up Queen Street? [Interruption] They like to put another spin on it, asking where Shane Jones and Parekura Horomia were. They make fun of our colleagues who were strategising over a McSalad. Where were members opposite when Pita Sharples stood up in front of 7,000 M\u0101ori and said: \u201CKeep going, keep going, the Government is about to crack.\u201D? I was there when he said that. I heard him say that the Government is about to crack. There is nothing like raising expectations to dampen the party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThose 7,000 M\u0101ori and 300 submitters to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee said they wanted M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland Council. But the Government has not listened to M\u0101ori. Why not? Because there are no votes in it for National. That is why it has not listened. The Government listens only when there is something in it for the Government. M\u0101ori have not been listened to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis is a Treaty issue, as Te Ururoa Flavell has said. The Treaty is about a partnership. Where is the partnership in the Auckland City debate? There is no partnership. This issue is about a group of people saying to M\u0101ori: \u201CSorry, you don\u2019t have a voice. You don\u2019t have a say. \u201D We are meant to be grateful that the Auckland City Council has had one M\u0101ori city councillor every 17 years. I can almost hear people saying: \u201CWhat are you M\u0101ori moaning about? One city councillor every 17 years? You should be grateful. You\u2019re lucky that you\u2019ve had one M\u0101ori voice every 17 years. Know your place, M\u0101ori.\u201D That is what we are hearing. One M\u0101ori city councillor every 17 years on the Auckland City Council is a disgrace. This bill is an opportunity to rectify that. It is an opportunity to show that the National Government\u2019s new-found love affair with M\u0101oridom is genuine. It is an opportunity to show that the rhetoric is more than empty, hollow words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI ask Nikki Kaye how hard she argued in her caucus for M\u0101ori seats, if she is genuine about saying she is listening to M\u0101ori. The member for Auckland Central pointed her finger, tapped her desk, raised her voice, and said: \u201CWe\u2019re listening.\u201D It is spin. We want M\u0101ori seats; we have said from the start that we want M\u0101ori seats. As my colleague Steve Chadwick said, our caucus spoke at length about M\u0101ori seats. We have wanted them from the start. I stood in a M\u0101ori seat. Labour supports the M\u0101ori seats. There is no argument beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThank you for the opportunity to speak. Saying \u201CWe are listening. We are listening. We are listening.\u201D is spin. This is about the Treaty of Waitangi. Where is the partnership? Where is the M\u0101ori voice on the Auckland Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022 data-id=\u0022eefc5e09286846ddb9621595b6665fb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eefc5e09286846ddb9621595b6665fb1\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E This is my first speech on this bill, and I want to touch on two aspects: firstly, the number of councillors and the need for the super-city as a whole; and, secondly, the topical question of M\u0101ori representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI will comment firstly on the matter of the numbers. Just by coincidence, I was lobbied\u2014that would be the fair term\u2014by the Rodney District Council some months ago in an attempt to keep that authority as a unitary authority. By coincidence again, during the previous week I had had an email from a Kiwi living in Melbourne, who informed me that the population of Greater Melbourne\u20143.8 million\u2014manages quite well, thank you very much, with seven councillors. The Rodney District Council has 12 councillors plus the mayor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EJust yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting with an American delegation of young, up-and-coming political leaders, one of whom is a council-woman, or commissioner as they are called, from Miami-Dade County in Florida. She and the other delegation members were very interested in the super-city proposal. It turns out that for a population of 2.2 million, the Miami-Dade council functions perfectly well with 12 councillors. Our city of Auckland has half that population and we are proposing to have 20 councillors, and the Labour Party thinks we should have more. It is interesting that our councillors are apparently so poor in quality that they need twice as many in number, as compared with Florida. I suspect that is not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThe second major issue is, of course, the M\u0101ori seats. When I visited the Rodney District Council a couple of months ago, I had a meeting with the mayor and the deputy mayor, whose name I regret I cannot recall\u2014his surname, anyway. He is a M\u0101ori guy by the name of John, and he spoke extremely passionately at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee hearing, which I attended, in Silverdale a couple of months ago. He gave probably the most passionate presentation I heard that day, and probably the most passionate presentation I have heard in my short time as a member of Parliament and as a member of a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EHe also made the point that there was no self-interest for him, because he was not standing again for the council, if I recall correctly. The point I am making is probably quite obvious. Here is a M\u0101ori guy who is deputy mayor in an area that could fairly be described as a fairly whitey area. There are not many M\u0101ori living in the farther reaches of the North Shore, \u014Crewa, Whangapar\u0101oa, and Kaukapakapa where I live, but this guy managed to be elected as deputy mayor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EDown in Gisborne, where I come from\u2014I sort of know the M\u0101ori name for Gisborne, but I cannot remember how to pronounce it properly, and I think one should pronounce it properly\u2014Atareta Poananga is a councillor. She is one of those hangovers from the past who still think that we whiteys should be pushed back into the sea. She says we should go back to where we belong, but she gets elected. There are enough people who think her crazy, mad views hold some credence, and she gets elected. So right there, just off the top of my head, are two examples of M\u0101ori being elected to councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EThere is no place for M\u0101ori seats on regional councils, on local councils, or in Government. I would like to quote two members of the Labour Party. One is a current member, Trevor Mallard. He was mocked outside this House for saying that because he is from Wainui\u014Dmata, he is tangata whenua. He was mocked for it. I recall a speech made by the late great David Lange at Canterbury University 22 years ago. He said that everyone in New Zealand is an immigrant, whether they arrived last week, last year, 150 years ago, or 500 years ago. He got a bit of stick for it at the time, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003EI come from a multiracial family. My wife is Tongan. My daughter is both Tongan and a New Zealander. Interestingly she considers herself a New Zealander. My son, although having Tongan heritage, is not a Tongan because Tonga has strict rules on citizenship and he was not born there. I envy the members of this House who can speak in te reo\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00222b356a697e764939a88dc89741821010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b356a697e764939a88dc89741821010\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to follow on from my colleague from Gisborne, David Garrett. I think the most telling thing about that speech on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was that Mr Garrett really disproved his own point. He could not remember the M\u0101ori guy\u2019s last name, so how would he be able to vote for him? He met someone who inspired him so much, but he disproved his point exactly: he came to the ballot paper and could not remember the guy\u2019s last name, because it was M\u0101ori. I think that quite aptly shows some of the issues that M\u0101ori have in terms of representation. The reality is that no sane person can look at the history of M\u0101ori representation on the Auckland councils and say that it has been fair. They cannot, because there have been eight M\u0101ori elected to council in nearly 150 years. If Mr Garrett thinks that that shows the system is working A-OK, then I think that says something about the ACT Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI also work in the Bay of Plenty. There are M\u0101ori seats on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council. You know, the sky did not fall in! Racism has not exploded in the Bay of Plenty. There are no racial divides over there. I want to remind members what the National Party said about that legislation, which was put up by my colleague Mita Ririnui, and about the Local Government Act, which allowed councils to have M\u0101ori seats if they decided they wanted them. I have picked two quotes from the Hon Dr Nick Smith. These quotes show that none of us really should be surprised that at the end of the day the National Party went with the ACT Party and decided to say no to the 7,000 people who marched in Auckland saying they wanted representation on the council. The Hon Dr Nick Smith said: \u201CThen we have the separatism provisions: the way in which we are to change a long-term, 160-year tradition in the way we elect local members, by introducing apartheid. I say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon. Chris Carter, who proudly boasts that he protested against apartheid in South Africa\u2014but he is going to introduce it into New Zealand\u2014that he should get on his feet and defend that \u2026 What is separate representation, if it is not apartheid?\u201D. That is what the Hon Dr Nick Smith said. He also said: \u201CThis damn law we are being required to pass is nothing less than apartheid, and I cannot believe members opposite want to impose this sort of obscene provision. It offends against National\u2019s principle of one standard of citizenship.\u201D When one considers those quotes one sees how little has changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThose of us who support M\u0101ori seats in Auckland see the value that those seats will bring. We see that in the Bay of Plenty. Another concern the National Party always raises is that it will mean M\u0101ori members will only focus on M\u0101ori issues. Well, that has not happened in the Bay of Plenty. The M\u0101ori members focus on everything. The other members focus on everything as well. It is actually about representation on the ground. We have a number of councillors who probably do not go on to marae a lot. Hui is not their preferred form of contact with their constituents, so they simply would not go there, whereas the iwi representatives on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council do. They go to the hui, they hold the hui, and they consult with their constituents. One would find, if we did not have these seats, that a whole portion of our society would not get the same level of representation. So having these seats is about equality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EImagine if we were to say to some of our P\u0101keh\u0101 constituents that we would not go to their meetings. We would say that we expect them to come to the marae, we expect them to come to the hui, we expect them to speak in M\u0101ori, and then they will get representation from their elected representatives. They would say that was not fair, and they would be right. So why is it OK to say to M\u0101ori constituents that they will have to come to our meetings, we will not come to the marae, we will not hold the hui, we will not hold the hui in M\u0101ori, and they will just have to live with that? Why are two standards OK to the National Party? That is what we are talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe are talking about representation on the ground for the M\u0101ori people of T\u0101maki-makau-rau. I want the next National speaker to stand up and say what is so offensive about requiring equality of representation. It is still the one person, one vote principle. They do not get to vote twice. They do not get to vote for two people. They still get to vote for one representative. What is so wrong about ensuring that every citizen of Auckland gets equal representation, equal contact with their elected representatives on the city council in the biggest city in New Zealand, our most important city, and the city where it is crucial that we get it right? Why is that so offensive to the National Party? To me it seems to be common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EMr Garrett raised the issue of Gisborne, and said some very unkind things about Atareta Poananga. Two or three councillors out of 12 on the Gisborne District Council are M\u0101ori, in a population where 45 percent are M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3ff2e03af14f9d9999acc87f732b12\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: How did they manage to get on the council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7613832dfe147ccb7f4ce4f7b3623e1\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: How did they manage to get on the council? Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8dc00c74f0342968971b759d3632a19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8dc00c74f0342968971b759d3632a19\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think we need to remind ourselves why we are here. How did we come to discuss the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill today? There has been 50 years of concern over Auckland governance, and that is really why we are here today. It was clear that the governance was not working. There was red tape. There was stifling bureaucracy. Transport in Auckland was grinding to a halt. Businesses were suffering. There were turf disputes. There was a lot of duplication. That is really why we are here. The last Government got the royal commission to look at the issue of Auckland governance. The commission consulted widely. It took about 20 months, and it produced a very comprehensive report. That is why we are here. The commission felt there was only very superficial appeal for a referendum, and it felt after its wide consultation that there was consensus for one Auckland Council. It said even more: that it was very urgent, that we had to get on with it, and that we had to get moving. It stressed the high cost of doing nothing. So this Government has acted decisively, and that is why we are here debating the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EImportantly, I think, we have taken on board the local board representation that the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance noted in its report. Indeed, we have strengthened some of those recommendations. The boards are really one of the most critical pieces of this legislation. Certainly, when we were going around Auckland talking to the different communities\u2014we went to the communities; they did not come to us; we made sure that we went to them\u2014their concern was that they would lose their identity, that they would be smothered by the one Auckland Council, that they would not have representation, and that it would all be fairly meaningless. Well, we listened, and there have been significant changes to arrive at the current bill that is before us. It was a democratic process. The process was started by the former Government, and we are completing it. We will have it on track, ready for the local body government elections next year, which will be very critical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe local boards are quite new; they are not the local community boards we have now, and they are not the city councils we have now. They are new entities with new powers, and with a status all of their own. They are legitimate. The powers they will have will be backed by the legislation we are debating today. They will have dedicated budgets to provide local services and they will have money to plan for their areas. To do that, the Auckland Council will need to devolve a policy of funding so that it can pass on money to the new local boards. We listened and we consulted. The local boards will be empowered to listen to their communities, to consult with their communities, and to write up a plan. Importantly, the one super-council will have to listen to those local boards. It cannot take them simply as lip-service; it has to take note of what the local boards are saying. The boards will have a special status at the council table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe local boards will need to take a holistic view of their community so that they can promote the social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of their communities. I think that that is really quite a nice flavour of what they have to do for their communities. It encompasses what they are charged to do for their communities. Of course, the Local Government Commission will have the final say on the number of local boards, their boundaries, and also the number of members on each of those boards. The number will be somewhere between four and nine people. The local boards will even be able to pass by-laws, which must be adopted if they are truly local and comply with all plans and laws. If appropriate, by-laws can even be enforced by the local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EJohn Carter made a very good point last night that all parties in the Chamber actually agreed with the concept of the new local board. No one dissented. Everyone agreed that we got it right. Everyone supported it. There were no negative comments in any of the minority reports about the local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe Local Government Commission will have to look at the number of local boards as set out in the bill\u2014anywhere between 20 and 30. It is proposed that those local boards should include Rodney, Franklin, Waiheke, and Great Barrier. The Local Government Commission will determine the final boundaries of the local boards. The local boards will not be toothless entities; they will have power, they will have teeth, and they will bring back the \u201Clocal\u201D into local government. This bill is about empowering local boards so that they can represent Auckland\u2019s diverse communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f52dd86691d64bba8b0db0bda6008ed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f52dd86691d64bba8b0db0bda6008ed7\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I think Labour has stated clearly that we are not opposed to the reform of the Auckland region. In fact, we have asked for it. But we are saying to the Government that the process is flawed and undemocratic, and I emphasise that it is not visionary enough. There might be a vision in the structure for businesses, but there is no vision for the rest of the population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI stated in my second reading speech on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill that the Auckland region is home to 1.4 million people and about 180 different ethnic groups, and it has the highest M\u0101ori population anywhere in New Zealand. In M\u0101ngere alone, 20 percent of the population are of M\u0101ori heritage, and about 60 percent of the population are of Pacific heritage. M\u0101ori, Pacific, and Asian communities are asking where the vision is. They are asking where they fit into this structure. They are asking where they are being included in the future structure of the Auckland region. Labour believes in having a M\u0101ori voice on the Auckland Council. It is about providing a positive vision for the people. It is about taking everyone along. It is about setting good leadership for that region to aspire to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI ask members opposite whether they are familiar with these names: Ng\u0101puhi, Waikato, Ng\u0101ti Porou, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, T\u016Bhoe, Te Rarawa, Te Arawa, Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, Tainui, Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, and Ng\u0101ti Kahu. Those are the iwi that the people of M\u0101ngere are affiliated to. I ask members opposite whether they are familiar with these names: Te Aup\u014Duri, Ng\u0101ti Awa, Te Wh\u0101nau-a-apanui, Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B, Ng\u0101i Tahu, Kai Tahu, Ng\u0101ti Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti Paoa, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki te Wairoa, Ng\u0101ti Wai, Ng\u0101ti Raukawa, Whakat\u014Dhea, Ng\u0101ti Pikiao, Te \u0100tiawa, Ng\u0101ti Ruanui, Te Tai Tokerau, Ng\u0101ti Maru, and Ng\u0101ti Whakau\u0113. Those are all the hap\u016B that people in M\u0101ngere are affiliated to. I ask Government members whether they acknowledge the existence of these people. Do they acknowledge that they have a place in the future of Aotearoa New Zealand? If so, they need to heed the voice that has declared to me and many other MPs in Auckland that M\u0101ori want their own voice in the new super-city governance structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAlthough I am proud to represent the 20 percent of M\u0101ori who reside in Auckland, I am fully aware that I am not M\u0101ori. M\u0101ori want their own voice. Members say that M\u0101ori issues are hard, but they caved on Mr Hide\u2019s tantrum. It was so easy. He had only to say the word and members caved in to him. Mr Henare has called Mr Hide a buffoon and a jerk-off, but what will he do about it? What will he do about supporting M\u0101ori seats? Nothing. I have asked him to cross the floor. Both Mr Henare and Mr Hide ought to be sent to boot camps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt is true that there have been M\u0101ori on the different city councils of our Auckland region, but they are elected from small wards. I will give members an example. \u014Ctara, with a population of about 35,000, has had M\u0101ori councillors. Councillor K\u016Bk\u016B Wawatai was for many years the deputy mayor of Manukau City. Councillor Reuben Wiki represented the \u014Ctara ward in Manukau City for many, many years. But those M\u0101ori councillors came from small wards where there was a large M\u0101ori population that recognised that those people provided good leadership in those small communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7756e1b7a4a41dfa1198f14b039cb9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7756e1b7a4a41dfa1198f14b039cb9a\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I would like to correct some misleading comments that National members John Carter and Jackie Blue made when they said the report of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was unanimous and no one had voted against sections of it. They know that is completely untrue, and I clarified that with John Carter yesterday. I reminded him that the Green Party had voted against every part of the bill. I know that because I was there doing the voting, so I would like to correct that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that I pointed out yesterday that the local boards would have no right to hire staff, no independent source of revenue, and no clearly defined powers, and that they would be completely subservient to the Auckland Council. John Carter said no, that was not true, so I asked him to point out to me which provision in the bill set out the autonomous powers of the local boards. Let us remember that is what we are replacing here. We have had six well-functioning, autonomous city councils, and they will be replaced by these four to nine - member boards, which have no autonomy. I asked John Carter to point out to me where autonomy is provided for in the bill. He could not point out to me the relevant clause. He suggested that I go and talk to the officials, instead. So off I went to the officials and asked them to point out to me the provision in the bill that states unequivocally the powers of the local boards. They pointed me back to clause 13D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI would highly recommend that Aucklanders have a good look at clause 13D. It says the council can delegate to the local boards, but the council can also override or veto a local board, and it spells out four ways in which the council can do that. The council may do so if it thinks the effects of an activity could be felt beyond a board\u2019s area. Well, almost anything would be. The council may do so if the activity needs to be aligned with other council decisions. Well, surely everything would have to be aligned with other council decisions. The council may also do so if the benefits of taking a consistent or coordinated approach outweigh the benefits to, and the needs and preferences of, a local area, or if the activity is one where decision making on an Auckland-wide basis would better promote the well-being of the communities. In that clause, which John Carter reckoned spelt out the powers of the local boards, and which officials pointed to me as being the relevant clause, four huge reasons are given for the council to override every decision of any local board. So I think we can put that claim by John Carter to rest, as that clause makes it clear that the local boards are completely subservient to the Auckland Council, which is called the governing body. They have no autonomy and no powers of their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to do is to introduce the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 55 in my name to the powers of the mayor. We are basically seeking to amend clause 9 so that the powers of the Mayor of Auckland are the same as the powers of the mayor of every other council. We cannot understand why the Mayor of Auckland should have excessive powers that are given to no other mayor in New Zealand. No justification has ever been given for this. Interestingly, just before I introduced this amendment, I happened to hear on the radio this morning\u2014it was very interesting; I think it was Radio Live\u2014John Banks, doing an interview. This was very, very interesting. He was talking about the super-city. He said he had a campaign staff of 600 people. I think everyone needs to know this. He said on the radio he had a campaign staff of 600 people and he would need a huge budget, because he pointed out that it would cost $130,000 just to send a letter to the 800,000 voters of Auckland. This will be one of the largest local bodies in the world, representing 800,000 people. Is that local government? I do not think so\u2014that is State government. Anyway, why would John Banks have a campaign staff of 600 people and vast amounts of money? Why is he so excited about this super-city? He knows that if he makes it into the mayoralty, he will have huge and excessive powers under this bill, unless my amendment goes through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u002225fa3da8ef0c4c9982018c4c79dc69a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225fa3da8ef0c4c9982018c4c79dc69a5\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I start by formally apologising to the member for Waiariki, Te Ururoa Flavell. The reason I am doing so is when I took an earlier call on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill I made a very strong statement, which I stand by: that the M\u0101ori Party members have been, by and large, quite invisible throughout this whole debate. They have made public statements and they have certainly taken a few calls in the Chamber, but I was not convinced that they were totally committed to the kaupapa of M\u0101ori representation. However, I held that view right up until the moment that the member for Waiariki stood to take a call. He made his position very clear in terms of his support and the support of his party. Now I am convinced that he is not dilly-dallying around, he is not playing politics with this issue, and he is very committed to the issues at hand. So I say to the member for Waiariki that that was a very important call, and he raised some very relevant points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EOne particular point he raised was fear. It seems that he is of the same view as I am: for some reason, the National-led Government has a fear of M\u0101ori. In the past, particularly going back to 2001 when I introduced the Bay of Plenty Regional Council legislation, I had the same impression: a number of National and ACT members in this Chamber\u2014particularly the Minister now in the chair, Rodney Hide\u2014were fearful of M\u0101ori and fearful of the M\u0101ori voice. They were fearful that M\u0101ori might have a level of control over the issues that affect them. They had a fear that this Trojan Horse\u2014\u201Cstalking horse\u201D, as it was described at the time\u2014may eventually grow to a size and be accepted, by and large, by New Zealand society such that it could no longer be controlled. Scare tactics! I say to the member for Waiariki that the points he raised were very important because there seems to be a level of fear. Every time the name \u201CRodney\u201D comes up, whether it be Rodney Hide in the chair, or the Rodney District Council, there is fear. The Government seems to go into fear mode. It starts to amend things to suit \u201CRodney\u201D, be it the Minister in the chair or the Rodney District Council. As the member for Waiariki said, there is no need to fear M\u0101ori. We have a vested interest in the well-being of our communities and we insist\u2014not want, but insist\u2014that we make a valid contribution to the development of those communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the contribution of my colleague Su\u2019a William Sio. He did a very, very important thing. He focused his contribution to the debate on people\u2014the voices of the people. He highlighted the communities of his area of M\u0101ngere. He highlighted the hap\u016B and the iwi, and where they were from. He went through a list of iwi who occupy that particular area. It is very important that we do that. He was saying that these indigenous people, tangata whenua of certain tribal affiliations, have been speaking to the Government, but the Government has not been listening. When we put it in that context it becomes very, very important that people start to listen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EWhen we heard the submissions on the Bay of Plenty legislation we followed the same process. The voices of the hap\u016B\u2014the k\u0101rangarangatanga hap\u016B of Te Arawa\u2014had the opportunity to speak, and they were heard. The voices of all the hap\u016B of M\u0101taatua, mai i Ng\u0101 Kur\u012B a Wh\u0101rei ki Tihirau, had the opportunity to speak, and they were heard. The hap\u016B of the tribes of Tainui who occupied the north-western part of the Bay of Plenty also had the opportunity to express a view, and were heard. The tribes of Horotiu, which cover the top end of Ng\u0101ti Porou in the Bay of Plenty also made submissions and insisted that their concerns be raised, and their voices were heard. That is exactly the point: to acknowledge\u2014putting aside the argument around the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014that there is a tangata whenua voice. I listened to the Minister earlier on. I wonder whether he was being politically mischievous, because he kept raising the issue about the tangata whenua voice and the M\u0101ori voice in general, although I do not know why that is an issue for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62c7ec238234f04a93a1fb49289ebbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62c7ec238234f04a93a1fb49289ebbc\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It was a privilege to sit for part of the hearings in Auckland and to hear, time and time again, Aucklanders present thoughtful pieces and isolate a whole range of concerns they had about the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I was impressed with the Hon John Carter in the way he handled the discussion, the way he handled the submissions people were making, and the way he used good humour to engage us all in the process. It began to give a sense of assurance to Aucklanders that their voices will be listened to, but they were not. The promise was certainly given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThis is one of the most important constitutional moments for Auckland and, indeed, for local government in New Zealand. However, what has happened since then does not give credit to the fact that we are addressing important constitutional matters. So much that has happened since then belies the promises that were given and it does not deliver them. I think the Hon John Carter is now at the forefront of trying to say that they have listened and all of the promises that were made are in this legislation, but they are not. Speaker after speaker from this side has got up and shown example after example of how the people have not been listened to. Apart from the agreement on a unitary authority, there is no agreement on much else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThroughout the day in this debate we will identify many of those kinds of things. Yes, we on this side agree that a unitary authority is what we want, but not at any cost. That is why we are arguing against much of what is here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe process certainly has been flawed in more ways than one. I guess this comes through most in the M\u0101ori seats. What is so difficult that Mr Rodney Hide cannot understand, appreciate, or internalise that one of the defining characteristics of New Zealand society is that we have a Treaty and we have an indigenous culture? They have certain rights, and promises have been made, and in post-renaissance New Zealand that has to be respected. Much of the rhetoric about one person, one vote, etc., does not cut the mustard. Indeed, this Parliament has to take responsibility to address what Treaty relationships are all about. In the most classic sense, this is the bicultural relationship between the Crown and iwi M\u0101ori. The Minister may shake his head and use some other principle about \u201Cone person, one vote; let them go and compete on the open market and it will be fine\u201D. That is what we have been doing since 1960 when M\u0101ori began to say that assimilation was not the answer. Then there was the M\u0101ori renaissance, and we are now post-renaissance. It means that in terms of what M\u0101ori want, and what submitter after submitter presented to the select committee in Auckland\u2014and Mr Carter was listening to them day in and day out\u2014there had to be M\u0101ori seats, and M\u0101ori had to be at the table, for all kinds of reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EFundamentally, it was because they are the tangata whenua, there is a Treaty relationship, and we are in a post-renaissance New Zealand society. To put that to one side, I am really surprised that the National Party\u2014a party that prides itself in saying that it will address the needs of M\u0101ori, and that is surviving with M\u0101ori at its side\u2014here, on one of the most fundamental things for M\u0101ori, is putting that aside and is saying that this is not important. I am not impressed with any of the arguments that Mr Hide made about letting the councils decide. This is a constitutional issue, it arises from Treaty relationships, it is what M\u0101ori want, and all of the other language around fairness, and one person, one vote, is flimflam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe same issues arise in other areas. Here we have a city with a huge M\u0101ori population. There are two iwi authorities being immersed and involved in contributing to what Auckland is. It is a great environment for tangata whenua in the sense that they represent their people and New Zealand. They showcase much of that. Why would we not want them to participate at the table where decisions are made? Most of those decisions are about their own people. Is it that Rodney Hide has been successful in driving his ideology? Essentially, his ideology is to reduce local authorities to concern with water, sewage, and things like that. But I say to Mr Hide that this is a community that is vibrant. This is a series of communities that live every day, and it is not just about roading, sewerage, or what have you. It is about the people who live there, and it is the participation of those people in their own governance that really is the hallmark of 21st century governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWhy is this Government, with the ACT Party, so dismissive of that? My plea is a sincere one. I ask the Government to listen to what Aucklanders want, and listen to the demands of the 21st century. People will participate in their own lives in a meaningful way, so I ask Mr Hide why he will not give them the ability to do that. He may say that there is one person, one vote, and everything will be fine, but up until now it has not worked. It took M\u0101ori a long time before they entered into local authorities. The tangata whenua are asking for what is important to them. This is a Treaty-based relationship. This is everything that is good about our society, yet the Minister dismisses it and drives his own particular ideology about the role of local government. The expectations that people have is that this is what they want. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00229cf656d3dcbb4784b70cc90e0acd5344\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cf656d3dcbb4784b70cc90e0acd5344\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about the participation in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill by the member for Maungakiekie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a50bd8bd074991a2d98900a488d187\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Who is he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5fd9497554c468da0439b48fe509d92\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He is Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, and he is one of the strong, silent types. He is very silent, but he is also on the Auckland City Council. I thought he would have had a big part to play in this debate. He would have seen it from both sides. But, no, we have not heard from that strong, silent type. Some of his colleagues tell me that he has not been in Panmure in months. Carol Beaumont has that all sewn up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWhat we really want to know is what is going on in Maungakiekie. We have someone who is an Auckland City councillor who could contribute so much to this legislation, but he has been absolutely silent not only in this Chamber but also in the electorate. It is not surprising. I look around and I see two\u2014no, it has gone up by 50 percent\u2014three National MPs in the debating chamber. They are really concerned! This is the sort of contempt that the National Government has for this legislation. When we have a look, we see that people made submissions, and I think it is very important that when people make submissions their member comes to the Chamber and talks about them. I think that the people are being poorly served. Those people want their local boards to have more power, and the select committee has gone some way towards that. We are not sure exactly what those extra powers will be, but they will be a wee bit more than getting rid of the local rats and things like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3edc382dc94760ac470fffc3c1530a\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Which particular rats are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b4fc705bdd4ff9a044d59146142597\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when I talk about rats, I mean the National Party. I am sorry; I must apologise. National members should be here if they care. Why do those members not come into the Chamber and take a call? Of course they will not. They will not get up and say what will happen with wards or with community committees. I bet that the member for Maungakiekie will not say a thing. I would yield now if he came and asked for a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EBut of course he will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca8c7cb969642feaf827100bcc0cedb\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Are they listening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240bc7e7e59d240c9aef00c3fdf60c284\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He is not listening. In the end, the people of Maungakiekie who voted for him have learnt their lesson. They will not vote for him next time. Carol Beaumont will be the MP for Maungakiekie because she has listened to people. She has found out what her community thinks. The member for Maungakiekie at the moment does not say a thing. He says very little at the Auckland City Council meetings when he bothers to attend them. He has worked out how many meetings he has to go to in order to collect his payment from Auckland City. He does barely the minimum. He comes down to the Chamber, hides in the National caucus, does nothing and says nothing, but collects the money. Some people say he is a double-dipper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EHere is a very important bill in which most Aucklanders are interested. How many Auckland National MPs are here in the Chamber? I must say that Dr Jackie Blue is here, and I think it is really good that she has turned up. I look around for others, but I would need binoculars to find them. I cannot see any Auckland National MPs ready to jump up and take a call. They are so arrogant that they are not listening. I ask them what we are going to have for wards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002243a7d9fa8226406f98b7def4837996ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243a7d9fa8226406f98b7def4837996ee\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Like many Aucklanders of my generation, I first became aware of the tangata whenua of Auckland in 1978, when Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua o \u014Cr\u0101kei occupied Bastion Point in protest at the plans of the then National Government, under Robert Muldoon, to turn Bastion Point into a bastion of high-income housing. I felt shock and horror as an Aucklander of the tender age of 15 or 16 at seeing the National Government of the day bring in the troops to evict protesters from Bastion Point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EDuring this speech I will draw on some comments made by M\u0113rata K\u0101wharu of Auckland and of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, who wrote a very good op-ed piece in the New Zealand Herald a little while ago. She made the comment that the challenges facing Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua in 1840 were very similar to the challenges they face now, which are about recognition of their place in the community and acknowledgment of their roles and responsibilities. It is the mana whenua concept\u2014the idea of authority over the traditional lands of the tribe and the exercising of rights and responsibilities. It is that recognition that looms very large for Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua in the debate over the super-city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is worth remembering that in 1840 Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua sent a delegation to Waitangi. Apihai Te Kawau sent a delegation to Waitangi because Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua were very concerned about the impact of the changing political and population situation at the time. Their response was to donate 3,500 acres of the best land\u2014land that is now home to the people of Mount Eden, the central business district, Ponsonby, Herne Bay, and Newmarket. In 1841 a further 8,000 acres of land were transferred. Ng\u0101ti Whatua\u2019s history since that founding act, which provided the land for the city of Auckland to be established, has really been one of a struggle to be recognised. In 1907 the Provincial Council made the decision to discharge raw sewage directly into the sea at \u014Ckahu Bay. In the early 1950s the papak\u0101inga at \u014Ckahu Bay was forcibly removed and demolished, and the families who lived there\u2014the community who lived at \u014Ckahu Bay\u2014were resettled against their will up on the hill. The turning point was the decision made by Joe Hawke and his family to occupy Bastion Point in protest at this history. From then on we have seen some happier days. I urge members who have not read the Waitangi Tribunal report on Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua o \u014Cr\u0101kei to do so. In the wake of the Waitangi Tribunal report, we saw Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua generously allowing publicly accessible land at Bastion Point to be jointly managed by them and the Auckland City Council. Some years later they gave a 50 percent discount on ground rent to allow the building of the Vector Arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI make these comments simply to make the point that M\u0101ori have made T\u0101maki-makau-rau home since before the city was even thought of. They generously provided the land for the establishment of the city, but until the 1990s they were excluded from the governance of the city. New Zealand in the 21st century is a very different place. We know that our city needs to be inclusive and that, within a generation, 40 to 50 percent of the people of Auckland will be of M\u0101ori or Pacific descent. We know that if Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, Tainui, and all the hap\u016B and iwi who live in T\u0101maki-makau-rau are not included fully in the civic life of our city, then Auckland will be a poorer place. The history is very clear: very few M\u0101ori have been elected to general seats in local government. We know that over 138 years in Auckland only eight councillors have ever been elected to general seats. The reality is that voters tend to vote for people like themselves. We need M\u0101ori at the top table. We know that, as a minority group, it is extraordinarily difficult for them to be elected. We know that M\u0101ori seats elected from the M\u0101ori roll have been an effective mechanism in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a15dfdf7356640488e8e5f75d37fbeff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a15dfdf7356640488e8e5f75d37fbeff\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to talk to my amendments to clause 9 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 55 in my name, which are to amend the powers of the mayor. Before I introduce them, I will outline the additional powers of the mayor under the model proposed in the bill and why we should care about these additional powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFirst of all, the mayor gets to choose his own deputy and all the chairs of committees, and indeed can appoint himself to be chair of any committee\u2014and I use the words \u201Chis\u201D and \u201Chimself\u201D advisedly. In every other council that is not the case; the council votes on chairs and deputy mayors, which means that more consultation is required. The committee chairs and the deputy mayor have to work with the whole council in order to get support, which builds in a more consultative approach, whereas under the model proposed in the bill the committee chairs and the deputy mayor will be completely beholden to the mayor, who will choose them. Secondly, once the mayor has appointed all of the chairs and the deputy mayor, he will control the votes in the council. Once the mayor controls the votes in the council, he will then be able to whip through any agenda that he wishes. Then, on top of that, the mayor has the extraordinary powers in the bill to decide whether and how the council will consult with Aucklanders. The bill states that the mayor will \u201Cestablish processes and mechanisms for the Auckland Council to engage with the people of Auckland, whether generally or particularly\u201D, and later states that the mayor \u201Cmust not delegate any of his or her powers\u201D. So the mayor alone will decide on the consultation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIf John Banks were to become mayor\u2014and we learnt this morning on the radio that he has a campaign team of 600 people and huge amounts of funding; it will be interesting to find out how much funding\u2014he will choose all of the key appointments, all the committee chairs, and they will all be beholden to him. He will control the whole inner cabal, the votes, and the agenda. He will be able to drive through his own agenda. If he decides, for example, that he wants to sell off a few assets\u2014and we know that that is the underlying agenda of Rodney Hide and ACT; it is quite explicit in their local government policy\u2014according to the principle in clause 9(3) of the bill he could choose not to bother to consult with Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI do not think that people have quite understood the implications of the powers of the mayor, and that is why I am so concerned about this issue. I have been a city councillor for 8 years, and for some of those I had the pleasure of having Mark Blumsky as mayor. He managed to get a majority on the council, and he rammed things through. Councillors who were outside the inner cabal were really impotent; there was nothing they could do. The executive had the power; it could drive through anything. Other councillors could jump up and down and protest, but the votes would be rammed through. So I think Aucklanders need to be aware of the implications of this bill, and particularly of the idea that the mayor is to decide on every mechanism for consultation with the people of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI ask\u2014and maybe the Minister could reply to this question\u2014whether this clause overrides the provisions of the Local Government Act that set out very clearly the consultation mechanisms local councils must follow when they do anything significant, such as selling off an asset. Very clear powers are spelt out in the Local Government Act, and they apply to every council in New Zealand. But I ask the Minister of Local Government, Mr Hide, whether or not they apply here. Could the Minister answer this question? Do they not apply to the Auckland Council? Does the provision in clause 9(3) override the provisions of the Local Government Act? It certainly appears to do that. It seems that absolutely unilateral powers are given to the mayor to decide on the processes and mechanisms that the council will use to engage with the people of Auckland. Obviously, if the mayor decides that he does not want to consult with Aucklanders because he wants to sell off some assets or do something that he thinks might be unpopular, he has unilateral powers under this bill. That is why I have moved these amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u00223c3a1b9cc07a4c2386deab72e33904c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c3a1b9cc07a4c2386deab72e33904c4\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I took an earlier call and made a pretty accurate statement that perhaps, from time to time, the Minister of Local Government was involved in political mischief. I say that because I listened to an earlier call that he took, and he raised the issue\u2014it was an issue for him, but not necessarily for the people of Auckland, particularly M\u0101ori\u2014that when it comes to determining tangata whenua seats and determining M\u0101ori seats in terms of representation, there is a problem. Which way does one go? I find that to be nothing more than mischief. If we had used the same argument in the Bay of Plenty in 2001, we may never have resolved the issue. It was simply not an issue for us at that time in the Bay of Plenty. It was a matter M\u0101ori would resolve, as usual, by way of a number of hui around the rohe, in this case, Waiariki. To use what I call a wedge to separate M\u0101ori from M\u0101ori is nothing more than political mischief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EMy colleague Phil Twyford raised some interesting points about the history of Auckland, particularly in relation to Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua and the trials and tribulations they have had to endure since colonisation. In particular, during the 1970s, and particularly in 1978 when Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands at \u014Cr\u0101kei, or Bastion Point, as it is more commonly known. The very point that Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua have been trying to stress throughout this whole debate is that they do not want a repeat of Bastion Point when it comes to the very small assets they have remaining in their possession. Su\u2019a William Sio raised the point about who the people of Auckland are, and he highlighted who they were. He made the point that their voice must be heard on the Auckland super-city council. There is no guarantee\u2014regardless of the attempts by the Minister of Local Government to convince the House that there will be one\u2014that at any time, once this bill is enacted, M\u0101ori will have a voice at the top table and not the bottom tables that have been referred to by the Minister and National members. That becomes a very, very important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI go back again to the experiences of the Bay of Plenty during the discussions in 2000 and 2001 around the Environment Bay of Plenty legislation to ensure M\u0101ori representation. It was important to take time. Environment Bay of Plenty did take time; it took 9 years before the legislation came to this House, as I said earlier on. It was important to ensure that all groups were contacted, and they were given the opportunity to air their views. Earlier on, I highlighted the tribal confederations of M\u0101taatua, mai i Ng\u0101 Kur\u012B a Wh\u0101rei ki Tihirau, Te Arawa, mai i Maket\u016B ki Tongariro. I also made mention of the interests of Tainui, Horouta, and T\u0101kitimu on the peripherals of that area. We see, as I mentioned earlier on, that when we look at M\u0101ori through the eyes of who they are ancestrally, we get a completely different picture in terms of the value they bring to the top table. We get a different picture about the passion they have for the assets, the natural resources, and the environment of their areas. I do not think that, at any time in the past, any council have been able to say that M\u0101ori were at the top table making their concerns clear in terms of the matters I have raised today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe chair of Environment Bay of Plenty, John Cronin, said it is working very well. He has at no time said the M\u0101ori members of Environment Bay of Plenty deal only with M\u0101ori issues specifically. They do not. In fact, if one goes to the Environment Bay of Plenty website, one will find that those M\u0101ori members head a number of subcommittees for Environment Bay of Plenty, such as the environment committee, the finance committee, and are involved in a whole lot of other committees. That is at the council level, but they also play a very important role on the ground in communities, making contact with the people who put them there to represent their views. That is what should happen in respect of Auckland City.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002242556d841bd8481f8129d6b4a02d4f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242556d841bd8481f8129d6b4a02d4f8b\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 n\u014D koe, Mr Chair. It was great to hear the history lesson from my colleague Phil Twyford. I will extend that history lesson and put in a plug for my iwi of Ng\u0101puhi when it comes to mana whenua. Those of us who know our history will know that years and years ago our tupuna Kupe stopped off at P\u014Dkeno and left a k\u014Dhatu, a rock, there. He claimed all the land from P\u014Dkeno right up to Te Rerenga Wairua. Based on that, Ng\u0101puhi could claim all of T\u0101maki and all of that area in between. It is really important that people know history, and that people know what went on back in those days. I do not want to throw a spanner in the works. I will not stand here and claim that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022457c7a8192864160a069533b78374b99\u0022\u003EHon Mita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: Fooled me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd86ed7909c4268a094050a32d109b1\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I will stand up for Ng\u0101puhi, anyway. It is really important that people know our history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI feel sorry for the Hon Tau Henare and the Hon Georgina te Heuheu. We know that they went out and batted for M\u0101ori seats on the council of the Auckland super-city. We know that they would have argued with their caucus members, and we know that in the end they were basically sidelined. It is really hard to be a brown peg in a square hole. I take my hat off to the Hon Georgina te Heuheu and the Hon Tau Henare, who went out and batted for the M\u0101ori people of Auckland, be they Ng\u0101puhi, Tainui, Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, or wherever they come from. They went out and batted for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIt was unfortunate we did not see those members on the hikoi. There were 7,000 people\u20147,000 M\u0101ori, P\u0101keha, Pacific Islanders. They all went out and marched, saying they wanted M\u0101ori seats. As I said earlier this morning, it is sad that although the Government says: \u201CWe listened. We listened. We listened.\u201D, the evidence is there that it has not listened, because M\u0101ori do not have their seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI bring up the point that people of all ethnicities marched that day. That is really important, because if M\u0101ori have no voice on the Auckland super-city, then what hope do our brothers and sisters from the Pacific Islands, from India, from Asia, or wherever, have? If M\u0101ori, as tangata whenua, do not have a voice on the Auckland super-city council, what hope do other ethnicities have of having their points of view represented at a governance level in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe whole issue of M\u0101ori being denied representation\u2014M\u0101ori seats\u2014on the council of the super-city also brings into question the integrity of the relationship between the National Government and our whanaunga in the M\u0101ori Party. While others are going out to bat for, and talking up, M\u0101ori seats on the council, the M\u0101ori Party members are distracted. They are sent off on a wild goose chase, they are sent down the garden path, to deal with issues such as a M\u0101ori flag. They are told to take four options for a M\u0101ori flag to 21 meetings over 3 months at marae across the country, and come back and tell the Government what the answer is. Would New Zealanders in general put up with that sort of process? Would New Zealanders say it is fine for somebody to take four versions of the New Zealand flag to community meetings in rugby clubs and community halls in places such as H\u016Bkerenui and Broadwood, then come back and say: \u201CHere, New Zealand; here\u2019s a flag.\u201D? The flag issue is a diversion and it also shows contempt. It is quite condescending and patronising. The Government told the M\u0101ori Party to go down the garden path while the Government deals with the real issue of M\u0101ori not having a voice in governance, a voice that would allow M\u0101ori to have a say in how their city is governed. It is patronising and it is condescending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EIn 2002 my colleague Mita Ririnui was instrumental in introducing the Bay of Plenty Regional Council bill that allowed two M\u0101ori members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f19eed9a9842e8916e622aa4193505\u0022\u003EHon Mita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: Three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1dd57556b741978c1dff48832113eb\u0022\u003EKELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014three M\u0101ori members, excuse me\u2014on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council. As our colleague Moana Mackey pointed out, the world did not end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022da50425119ed4986b23a704b3f2b2eda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da50425119ed4986b23a704b3f2b2eda\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. We know, obviously, that the M\u0101ori seats\u2014or, at least, mana whenua seats\u2014are an issue for this Parliament, and I want to continue around that theme and perhaps put some questions to the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide, as I thought that his k\u014Drero earlier this morning at least gave an overview as to where he is at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn terms of the discussion of the M\u0101ori seats in Auckland governance, there was overwhelming support from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance. All the mana whenua groups in Auckland, the two major iwi groups in Auckland, 100 percent of the M\u0101ori submitters to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, 80 percent of the non-M\u0101ori submitters to that select committee, the majority of the Auckland councils, most of the Auckland mayors, and three of the five major parties in Parliament were in support of mana whenua seats. Hone Harawira told us last night that every intelligent political commentator in the country says it is OK to have mana whenua seats. In response, the Minister of Local Government has said that if the people of Auckland choose to have reserve seats\u2014M\u0101ori seats, that is\u2014they can do so under the Local Electoral Act. Indeed, the council itself can choose this if it wants to. Those are big ifs. The Minister suggested that if M\u0101ori really want separate seats, they should vote for mayoral candidate Len Brown as the first mayor of the united Auckland City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIf we get organised as a people we might be able to put up candidates and vote accordingly, but the track record suggests that it does not all happen like that. Despite all the support, the select committee elected not to recommend that the bill provide for M\u0101ori seats on the proposed Auckland Council. I suppose that the good thing about all those entities I mentioned earlier is that they accepted the notion that it is OK to have mana whenua seats\u2014M\u0101ori seats. The royal commission accepted the principle, for goodness\u2019 sake! That is what I was asking the Minister earlier this morning. I asked him to explain that he accepts the principle under the auspices of Te Tiriti o Waitangi that having mana whenua seats\u2014not necessarily M\u0101ori seats\u2014is appropriate in today\u2019s world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe in the M\u0101ori Party are obviously pretty disappointed that we have not been able to get our way, but we will continue to fight it through. But it calls into serious question the fundamental basis of the parliamentary democratic process, which should reflect decision making of the people and for the people. The Minister Mr Hide talked this morning about the complications of providing a mechanism that would best reflect his principles of, I suppose, one law for all. It seems to me that we have paid officials in and around Parliament whose job it is to come up with an idea and a system that best reflects that in practice. But we have to accept the principle first, and that is what I am asking the Minister to consider. I am asking him to accept the principle that it is OK according to Te Tiriti o Waitangi for M\u0101ori to have seats set aside as of right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is not sitting back. To support our cause we are putting forward five Supplementary Order Papers to move forward the Auckland kaupapa in an inclusive way. The amendments start with what is the preferred position of mana whenua\u2014that is, two mana whenua seats, with candidates selected by mana whenua and voted on by M\u0101ori\u2014and go right across the forum, if you like, to the most limited option, which is that of one M\u0101ori seat. In the end, we are still looking for the opening that allows the Government to accept that principle. The five options that we will be presenting to the Committee are in the name of my colleague Hone Harawira, and they demonstrate that a number of options were presented to Cabinet, but that ultimately none was acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI will quickly go through some of the Supplementary Order Papers. The first would insert a requirement to provide for mana whenua representation on Auckland Council as required under Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227799233bf8644268afcdc5c18efa4e8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227799233bf8644268afcdc5c18efa4e8b\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Before I get into what I want to discuss, I point out that the Government decided that this matter was so urgent that we needed to deal with it under urgency, so I find it rather shocking that none of the Government members are standing to take calls. This is the second time the Government has put the House into urgency to deal with this particular issue. I find it rather concerning that none of the Government members finds it urgent enough for them to stand up and debate it robustly in the Chamber. I think the New Zealand public would be interested to know that those members do not find this issue is as urgent as they would like the public to think it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWith that in mind, I would like to refer back to what the previous speaker, Te Ururoa Flavell, was talking about\u2014M\u0101ori representation. I was part of the group that marched in support of M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland Council, and one thing struck me. I was left wondering why we continually have to have protests over things like that, when we would think that they would be automatically granted under the Treaty of Waitangi. The constant battle by M\u0101ori and others who support this request for M\u0101ori representation is completely unnecessary. What we will find is that, 1 year, 2 years, or 3 years down the track, M\u0101ori seats will be granted, and we will look back at this time and wonder why the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, made it so difficult. Why did he have to incite protests from the New Zealand public, when it was something that should have been granted in the first place? I look forward to that time. It may not be now; it may be 2 or 3 years down the track, it may be when the Labour Government is back in power, it may be 4 or 5 years down the track, but I look forward to the time when I can turn to Mr Rodney Hide and say: \u201CNow the right thing has been done. Why didn\u2019t you do it in the first place?\u2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to touch on the voting system in respect of what is being pushed through in the bill. The bill proposes that first-past-the-post voting system be used to elect the mayor, councillors, and local board members, in spite of many submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee saying that preferential voting would deliver fairer, more representative results. The concern that some people have expressed to me is that some of our people who are less politically savvy might struggle with a preferential voting system, but I think it is important that whatever voting system we implement, it is one that ensures that people\u2019s votes actually count\u2014that people place their votes and that they count. The last thing we want is a mayor who is elected by only 20 percent of the Auckland region. That would hardly be representative of what the Auckland region wants. We need a voting system that ensures that the votes of all Aucklanders count in some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESome people have talked to me about their concern that some people may find it difficult to understand what is required of them in respect of a preferential voting system. But there is nothing to stop Auckland from putting some sort of education system in place so that we can ensure that in the lead-up to the local elections Aucklanders are aware of how the particular voting system works. I cannot understand why, therefore, we are left with a voting system that could potentially give us a mayor who is elected by only 20 percent\u2014perhaps even less\u2014of the Auckland voting public. We on this side of the Chamber believe that ensuring that candidates win by majorities and that fewer votes are wasted will deliver more legitimacy and is likely to lead to increased voter participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EPreferential voting\u2014for instance, the single transferable vote system\u2014also delivers more diverse representation. If the Government decides not to include M\u0101ori seats on the council, that issue becomes even more urgent, but it is also important to encourage candidates from other ethnic minorities, including Pasifika and Asian people, as well as from other important interest groups, like youth and the disabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002269bd41c76f6e44029318aea758160acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269bd41c76f6e44029318aea758160acc\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is customary for the Minister in the chair to answer questions at the Committee stage when serious questions are raised of that Minister and requests are made to clarify genuinely significant issues. I have asked a genuine question of the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide. I have asked him to explain whether the provision in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill to give the mayor powers to establish processes and mechanisms for the council to engage with the people of Auckland\u2014in other words, to decide on all consultation that the Auckland Council has with Aucklanders\u2014overrides all of the other consultation provisions in the Local Government Act. I really would appreciate the Minister\u2019s answering this question. If he will not do so, I would appreciate Mr Carter, the Associate Minister of Local Government, answering it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that when I asked Associate Minister John Carter whether he could point out what provisions of the bill he said gave local boards autonomy and power, he was not able to, even though he has chaired the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee for weeks and months. He was not able to point to any such provision; he recommended that I go to the officials instead, which I did. Of course, the officials gave me exactly the information that I already knew, which is that the local boards will not have any local autonomy and powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI thought it might be worth raising a couple of further issues. First, what do the mayors of Auckland think of the amendments that have come through as a result of the select committee hearings? I also want to talk about the costs and benefits of this organisation. Well, Bob Harvey said, despite all of the spin, that unless the boards were given additional powers, the local boards would be little more than sewing circle meetings. In the meantime, the North Shore Mayor, Andrew Williams, says that the upshot, after all the consultation, \u201Cis an all powerful super Auckland Council, a super Mayor with even more power than before, 20 to 30 completely powerless local boards with no statutory powers or resources in their own right,\u201D. He predicted: \u201CIt will only be a matter of time before communities realise that despite Rodney Hide\u2019s lofty promises, their democratic right to decide local issues for their own local area now has passed to 20 Councillors in Queen Street who call all the shots.\u201D He said: \u201CThere will certainly be a community backlash once local communities start approaching their new local boards for better services, only to be told that the best they can do is \u2018advocate\u2019 their case to the Auckland Council or to try to \u2018plead\u2019 their case for inclusion in the next Auckland Council LTCCP or annual plan,\u201D. In other words, he predicts that once they work out that the local boards really have no powers, despite \u201Call the government spin and double-speak,\u201D there will be a backlash in the community. I am sure that that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe other issue I would like to raise concerns the benefits and costs of this huge restructuring. There has not been a regulatory impact statement of what the costs and benefits are to Aucklanders. That is odd, because the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, is also the Minister for Regulatory Reform. One of the things he goes on and on about is the need to be absolutely aware of the costs and benefits of proposed legislation. So what are the costs and what are the benefits? I notice that nobody is suggesting that one of the benefits will be lower rates, because we know that there will be increased rates. We also know that all of the costs of restructuring will be borne by the Auckland ratepayers. They will be whacked with this huge bill, once the Auckland Council is set up, for a new council that most Aucklanders oppose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe need to understand the magnitude of what has happened. We had seven well-functioning, autonomous, democratically elected councils. They have been wiped out and replaced with this super-council, which will represent 1.4 million people\u2014I think about 800,000 voters. It will probably be the largest council in the world. Then we have 20 to 30 rather tiny, fragmented local boards, which will be completely subservient to the council. What is the benefit of this huge restructuring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3b77dba115462f96594ac8461f7299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3b77dba115462f96594ac8461f7299\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to see that at least the Green Party raises serious issues; I will answer them. Sue Kedgley said that the local boards will not have autonomous decision-making powers, and she cited clause 13D and the exceptions to this. Clause 13D states that decisions on non-regulatory activities should be exercised by local boards, unless Auckland-wide decisions will better promote the well-being of Auckland communities. The key thing here is that the default is that local boards will make such decisions. This too should also be read in the context of the rest of the bill\u2019s provisions, which include clause 13C, which provides that local boards are responsible and democratically accountable for non-regulatory decision-making; that they have the ability to propose by-laws\u2014that provision is from clause 13K\u2014and that they have the funding that provides for equitable capacity for local boards to enhance the well-being of their communities. In fact, it is those provisions that saw the President of New Zealand Community Boards, Mr Mike Cohen, come out in such good support for the work that the Government has done\u2014first, in providing for the second tier of local boards, and, indeed, in powering them up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002208f2f53ffeb1407c9c639d19a5d6e0a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208f2f53ffeb1407c9c639d19a5d6e0a0\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak particularly to the amendments to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill relating to M\u0101ori representation on the Auckland super-city. I have grave concerns about the failure of the bill to address that issue. My concerns stem not simply from the rejection of M\u0101ori representation as a fitting issue in the consideration of a new super-city; my primary concern is about the poverty-stricken vision that it represents from this Government for the largest city in New Zealand and its future. This is not a vision going forward for New Zealand; this is a poverty-stricken \u201Cback to the past\u201D vision for Auckland City and its place in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe have come a long way from the days of Bastion Point that my colleague Phil Twyford traversed so eloquently earlier. I remember those days well myself, albeit I was a bit older than him at the time. However, the exclusion of M\u0101ori representation on the body that is to run the biggest and most dynamic city in this country, which was my home for 27 years, is a narrow, introspective, and regressive action. We need to present to the world a different kind of super-city. We need to present to the world something unique that is Aotearoa New Zealand, and excluding M\u0101ori representation does not take us there. It is a poverty-stricken vision, it does not recognise the legitimacy of the claims of M\u0101ori to be represented at the top table, and it does not model alternative governance structures for the future of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI would like to refer to Alasdair Thompson\u2019s article. Alasdair Thompson, from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern), said the Auckland super-city was on track bar two recommendations. He said: \u201CThey are the absence of seats reserved for elected Maori representatives on the Council, and the shifting of the northern boundary of the city\u2019s region.\u201D The shifting of the northern boundary has been remedied by this Government, after pressure from the public. But he says about the absence of seats reserved for elected M\u0101ori representatives: \u201CWe cannot understand that. There\u2019s no sense in it.\u201D He went further in the New Zealand Herald to do an entire article, an opinion piece, about why M\u0101ori representation needed to be at the governance table, and it was about exercising authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIf Alasdair Thompson from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) gets it, why does this Minister not get it? Alasdair Thompson has the courage to plot forward a way for a dynamic future for New Zealand and for the Auckland super-city, by representing the view that joint representation at the governance table is essential. Not only is it essential to the progress, life, and development of the Auckland super-city but it is essential as a point of difference, as a mark that says to the rest of the world there is a unique city here that is not replicated anywhere else in the world, and it is represented in this way by its governance structure. That is not a hard ask. Even on purely pragmatic grounds about the economic point of difference for tourism, the attractiveness of the city, and the attractiveness of New Zealand, it is not a hard ask. But when we layer on to that lack of representation of M\u0101ori at the governance level the very profound grievance that it will create, we have a recipe for disaster. We have a recipe for ongoing aggravation in a city that ought to be stepping up and proving itself to be a city of the future. However, we do not have a Minister who is prepared to wear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022829ba78c5f8f43b58e6b1b30a5e7f79a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829ba78c5f8f43b58e6b1b30a5e7f79a\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou, n\u014D reira e te Whare, e ng\u0101 iwi, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101. While the House sits in urgency Auckland\u2019s National members of Parliament sit on their bums. I should say \u201Cbottoms\u201D; I withdraw and apologise for using that language. But they sit there, and I issue a challenge to them to get up on their hind legs and take a call. Kia kaha! Be strong and take the challenge to rise and defend this legislation, because this legislation needs to be defended. The House is sitting in urgency. It is a constitutional outrage. For the Auckland members of Parliament not to stand to take a call to justify what they are doing shows contempt for the people who voted for them. They are not taking a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI challenge the Prime Minister, John Key, to take a call. I challenge Steven Joyce to take a call. I challenge the Hon Murray McCully to take a call. I challenge the Hon Wayne Mapp to take a call. I challenge the Hon Jonathan Coleman to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Paula Bennett to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Pansy Wong to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Judith Collins to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Maurice Williamson to get up to take a call. They are all members of the executive. But that is not to let those who are not on the executive get away scot-free. What about Sam Lotu-Iiga? Why has he not stood up to take a call? He is the silent giant, they say; he has not taken a call. Then there is Kanwaljit Bakshi. He is sitting here. I challenge him to stand up to take a call to justify what the Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThis legislation is legislatively flawed, it is democratically flawed, and the people of Greater Auckland are absolutely floored. This bill, I guarantee members, will be back before Parliament before the next general election. I have no doubts about that. The Associate Minister of Local Government, who is sitting in the chair, is nodding his head. He knows that the legislation is being rushed through, that it is not being done democratically. We need to sit down and debate it in ordinary time so that it is done properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI turn now to the number of councillors. The number of councillors is set at 20. Obviously, the issue perplexes the Government, and it also perplexes me. The fact that there are only 20 indicates to me an inability on the part of the Government to recognise that bigger is not necessarily better. The number of councillors proposed is 20, and that will produce wards of approximately 49,000 voters with a population of about 70,000\u201470,000! That means two things and I see two difficulties. First of all, it will be difficult for candidates to campaign effectively. The size of the wards that the councillors are supposed to represent is almost on a par with the area that a member of Parliament represents. It has to be asked how people can campaign effectively and do the job properly. I think the size of the wards will also undermine the accessibility and the accountability of the councillors. The wards are too big; the councillors will not be able to get around them and they will not be able to do the job. I ask the Associate Minister how the candidates can campaign effectively. Will they become like central government members of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u002227963a5f44fc4321aef361def93b8d71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227963a5f44fc4321aef361def93b8d71\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E That was a brilliant speech from the member for Manukau East, Ross Robertson. I say \u201CWell, done, Ross.\u201D to him. I want to re-emphasise the position of Labour in regard to M\u0101ori seats, and then I will talk a little about our position on the mayoral position. Then I will get on to the Pacific Advisory Board, which we are putting forward in an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e051ac02834008bf694f5824002636\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Advisory board!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451436a2530b4b6db851f7da1e3c38cf\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: It is important, I say to Mr Henare. The Pacific communities throughout Auckland were prepared to put on hold their ambition to be included at the top table, so that they could include and advocate for M\u0101ori first and foremost. It was the strong feeling of Pacific communities in the Auckland region and throughout this land of ours that unless the Government got it right for M\u0101ori, it would never get it right for Pacific and other minority groups. So it was important that we unite to advocate strongly to ensure that M\u0101ori are part of the top table of the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThose members who did not have the opportunity to listen to the submissions would have missed out on the sea of emotion and passion that people displayed. I myself was quietly surprised to find that those who submitted in support of M\u0101ori seats were mainly P\u0101keh\u0101. About 60 percent of those submitters said that it was time, that the super-city was a new beginning, and that it was important for the Government to be more visionary and to provide strong leadership for the rest of the nation to follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI will give members a quote from one of the submitters. Jill Greer from Beachhaven on the North Shore submitted on only two issues, the water supply and the Treaty of Waitangi. The first thing she said was \u201CAny form of water supply should never be privatised.\u201D The second thing she said, with regard to the Treaty of Waitangi, was \u201CThere is no mention at all of the legal obligation to recognise the Treaty by insisting that at least four seats on any council are allocated to M\u0101ori and that other minority groups must be officially recognised.\u201D I have another quote, from Robyn Laing. Again, it gives members a bit of a taste of the overwhelming support for M\u0101ori seats. Robyn Laing from Mount Eden in Auckland said: \u201CIt is imperative that there is M\u0101ori representation on the council. We are in partnership with the tangata whenua.\u201D All the members on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee would have heard those submissions and would have felt the passion, the love, the desire that for P\u0101keh\u0101, for Pasifika, and for M\u0101ori the super-city was a new beginning, and we ought to include M\u0101ori on the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI will share with members an excerpt from the submission made by Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua. I think it is important that people hear it. They said: \u201CThe simple truth of the matter is that the present system has not delivered M\u0101ori councillors in Auckland City local government, particularly mana whenua councillors. Auckland has had an Auckland City Council since 1851 and there has never been a Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua councillor in any of those 158 years. To the best of our knowledge there has never been any mana whenua councillor in Auckland City. We acknowledge that since the 1960s there have been occasional and intermittent taura here councillors. We can identify eight taura here altogether over the 158 years, but that is in the context where Auckland City has usually had 19 or 21 councillors sitting on any 3-year term council.\u201D I think that is another point that people need to understand. Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua also said in its submission: \u201CThe contribution which M\u0101ori make to T\u0101maki-makau-rau is very substantial and has always been so. Think of the acts that first created the city of Auckland in the first place: the invitation for Hobson to come here and bring his Government, and the transfer of lands to enable all that to occur. Think further, in the case of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua o Or\u0101kei, of the other contributions that they have made and continue to make to this city. To keep it very local, look at the spaces available to the public at Or\u0101kei\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002243a2e0d8acd64d85a570fcc3a9f5b55f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243a2e0d8acd64d85a570fcc3a9f5b55f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I want to bring something completely new into this debate: Pansy Wong. I have not heard from the Hon Pansy Wong in this debate at all. In fact, I do not think I have heard her speak since she was re-elected. I have not heard her since she got into Cabinet. It is interesting to note that there are only a couple of National members here. We have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d944e4b7995546c980921943ed731de6\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. As you know, the member has been here long enough to know that one cannot refer to the absence of members. I would ask you to ask him to correct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e94ef3745ca4270a396d51881b3156a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am very pleased to see some National members here\u2014very, very pleased. It does not take long to count them up. There are one, two from Auckland. We have two from Auckland. I am interested to see that Dr Jackie Blue, who sat on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, is here. She has been about as active as the statue of King Dick out in Parliament grounds is. In reality, the National members are not taking calls now, and we have to ask why they are not. I think they are treating this Parliament with contempt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI challenge Pansy Wong to come here to the Chamber as the member for Botany, and to say something. She does not say anything about women\u2019s affairs, yet half the population of Auckland are women. One would think that she would be here to represent the viewpoint of women in Auckland, but is she? Not at all. I think that Pansy Wong should be ashamed of herself. I challenge her to take the next call, to get up and have a go, because she also represents a group of people who are a big and significant part of South Auckland: the Asian community. We know that the National Government is not acknowledging, working for, and speaking on behalf of Pacific Islanders. The member for Maungakiekie, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, is not saying a thing. We have Pansy Wong, on behalf of Asians, not saying a thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EOn looking around the Chamber I have to say it is great that this Parliament has someone like Su\u2019a William Sio to represent the Pacific Island community and the M\u0101ngere electorate. He is not too scared to get up and say what really matters. You see, these people will lose representation when the changes come in\u2014the Pacific Island group, the Asian group\u2014and where are those members? Where is the member for Maungakiekie? Where is the member for Botany? They should be jumping up immediately and having a say, defending people and defending the bill. Well, perhaps it is a big ask; one cannot defend the indefensible. Maybe that is why those members are not having a say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EBut in reality, when we look at wards, we see it is possible\u2014and, I suspect, highly likely\u2014that the National Government will go for big wards, because that will suit its purpose better than having wards where Pacific Islanders, Asians, and M\u0101ori people could get in. My electorate has more M\u0101ori people in it than any other general seat, and they are disappointed that the National Government has turned its back on the M\u0101ori people. I blame John Key for that. John Key and his Government have a Minister like Pansy Wong, who says nothing, just nods her head, and lets things go through. When you come to Parliament, you come to represent your people, and you cannot do that from your Beehive office. When you are the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs, you cannot do that job by saying very, very little. You have to be upfront in defending the rights of women in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a2ddaa110749689539125c6cb1237d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I would remind members that the Chairperson does not do much. The references to \u201Cyou\u201D are out. I do not sit in a Beehive office doing those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022efe18b5acd7d4876b13eab540036a022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efe18b5acd7d4876b13eab540036a022\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make some comments about representation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655a88354746428e9b334dd626b494b2\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Is no National Party person taking a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9edcab005d840d8878c5a1335b3e631\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It seems that the members on the other side of the Chamber are not interested in this debate and do not place a very high priority on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b8140b580e4204821afac1bfcb807f\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: No Auckland MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257df081d6c57490c9942ef88d250157b\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Very few Auckland MPs; they seem to have given up entirely on this debate. But we will press on, because issues of representation are fundamental to the super-city project and fundamental to democracy. If the rules are not fair, if they are not seen to be balanced, transparent, and fair, and if every person in Auckland, every neighbourhood, every community, does not have an equal say in the affairs of the city, then that is not democratic. It will certainly mean that the overriding objective of increasing participation in civic engagement will not be met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Government got off to a bad start in this area, with its proposal for at-large councillors. It is absurd to expect individual candidates for the Auckland Council to stand in an electorate of 1.4 million people and 5,000 square kilometres. The public reaction to that proposal, which presumably came from the Minister of Local Government, was overwhelmingly negative. The Government has claimed that it is listening, that it has backed down and done a U-turn on that idea, but it is clear from the bill, it is clear from the commentary, that it is attempting to achieve the same objectives through the back door, with its idea of multi-member wards that are almost 2.5 times bigger than a parliamentary electorate. It is at-large elections through the back door. It is clear that the wards will be so big that they will undermine fair representation, and many communities in Auckland simply will not be represented. One ward will be the size of some of the existing cities, and will likely have three representatives. That is an unacceptable local government ratio of representatives to citizens. The submitters to the select committee process were strongly against at-large councillors. I think if we re-opened the select committee hearings now, we would find that the submitters would be equally against multi-member wards, which create very, very large electorates. People wanted fair representation, and they wanted their councillors to be directly accountable to local communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIn the same vein, Labour believes that the number of councillors proposed for the Auckland Council is too small. Twenty councillors for a city of 1.4 million people is inadequate. It is just not enough. It means that there will be approximately one councillor for 49,000 Auckland voters. To remedy that, Labour has tabled an amendment that would push up the number of councillors to 25. That is one of a number of measures Labour is proposing in this debate, in order to create a more representative, fairer, and more balanced model for the new super-city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAs well as introducing more councillors, the best thing this bill could do is to implement the single transferable vote (STV) system of voting for the Auckland Council, at all levels\u2014for the mayoralty, for the council, and for the local boards. It is just one of a number of flaws in this bill that the Government has chosen to adopt the first-past-the-post voting system. One of my colleagues mentioned earlier that there is a pattern in Auckland City of mayors being elected on around 20 percent of the vote, under first past the post. This Government is proposing to use the same voting system in the Auckland super-city to elect the mayor of the new structure for one-third of our country\u2019s population. It is proposing to load up the super-mayor with extra powers, under a voting system that will probably deliver a mayor who attains only 20 percent of the vote. What kind of legitimacy, what kind of popular mandate, will that mayor have under the new system? Not very good, I suggest. The STV voting system is clearly fairer. By definition, under STV every vote counts. Therefore, it is likely to increase the level of civic engagement with the political process. STV has a track record of delivering greater diversity in terms of minority representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022247bcc4bd8a543d8b89393dcd68123cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022247bcc4bd8a543d8b89393dcd68123cd\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. My colleagues from the Green Party have spoken with eloquence about the reasons why we are opposing the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I totally agree with the points made by Sue Bradford, who spent many hours on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and also the experienced perspective of Sue Kedgley, who has spent many years in local government politics. I also agree with Keith Locke, an Auckland MP of many years\u2019 standing, who has spoken clearly on the key issue of the single transferable vote being a better model for any new council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI want to speak strongly today on the issue of M\u0101ori seats as a central point in the debate. I spent 3 days on the select committee, which was a very valuable experience. This was not only because I appreciated working with more experienced MPs on that committee. I also appreciated the leadership of the Hon John Carter as chair, and also the work of the officials. I appreciated working with Nikki Kaye, who asked just about as many questions of individual submitters over those 3 days as I did. She showed a genuine interest in the community group submitters as well. Maybe MPs can congratulate themselves on a well-run event, but I do not think the submitters were quite so happy. My brief conversations with a number of groups, after they gave their submissions, included comments like \u201Cridiculously brief opportunity\u201D, \u201Cwe feel patronised\u201D, and \u201Cgive us M\u0101ori seats\u201D. Many of them marched on the h\u012Bkoi, to no avail, as did the Green Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIn addition to a number of issues that were repeatedly raised by submitters, there was the issue of absolute assurance that the assets of the Auckland region would not be privatised or further alienated from the control of citizens. It has been said that the Local Government Act protects those assets, but this legislation does not clarify or explicitly recognise the people\u2019s concerns about this matter, which were consistently raised during the select committee. The people wanted it spelt out in this new governance arrangement, and they did not get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EMainly I want to speak about the political and constitutional opportunity lost for T\u0101maki-makau-rau and the country as a whole. The mana whenua and M\u0101ori seats were recommended by the royal commission, and they were supported by a huge number of submitters. These submitters included a wide diversity of groups, many of whom supported the calls of tangata whenua for M\u0101ori seats. I was particularly interested in the tauiwi and other P\u0101keh\u0101 groups who supported this call. I will give a short sample of the roll call when I was present at the select committee for a short time over those 3 days. As somebody mentioned earlier, Alasdair Thompson from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc., an organisation not known for its support for tino rangatiratanga, was present, and took a strong stand. Also present were representatives from the National Council of Women, the Auckland City Youth Council, the Ponsonby Economics Study Group, the Tamaki Community Board, the Auckland Regional Council, the Auckland branch of Grey Power, and the Cook Islands Community Forum. The Cook Islands Community Forum representatives were particularly notable, as were the other Pasifika groups, for their strong support for mana whenua and the rights of tangata whenua, as people whom they saw had mana whenua status and who would support them in their struggle for representation, but who came first as the first people of Aotearoa. Then there were the universities and the Auckland University of Technology. Many, many individuals over those 3 days supported M\u0101ori seats. In other words, 80 percent of the tauiwi submissions supported M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EAt that point I felt heartened that I live in a country where progress is being made, only to find the legislation has failed the people. M\u0101ori, or mana whenua, seats on any council are not an accurate reflection of the rights affirmed by Te Tiriti o Waitangi; they are just a start. Tau Henare made good reference to the historical reasons for M\u0101ori seats. Since 2001 Environment Bay of Plenty has had M\u0101ori seats, as Mita Ririnui has said. It solves by no means all of the political issues for tangata whenua of that rohe, but it is a start, and the Green Party supported that legislation at the time. But now that M\u0101ori seats have been suggested for Auckland, they could have been a useful step towards a better governance model for T\u0101maki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIt was more than poignant to hear Ng\u0101rimu Blair from Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei speaking on Back Benches the other night of how his t\u016Bpuna would have been shocked to see him standing there in a bar, talking about being refused a seat at the table of governance. His t\u016Bpuna would have been shocked because his t\u016Bpuna had allowed P\u0101keh\u0101 access to much of the land in T\u0101maki, and now their mokopuna are today begging for a seat at a table of governance, in a city built on whenua belonging to those people. What about Ng\u0101ti Te Ata, Tainui, Kawerau a Maki, Te Wai\u014Dhua, Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, as well as Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei\u2014me ng\u0101 hap\u016B katoa of T\u0101maki\u2014not to mention Ng\u0101 Hau E Wh\u0101 wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESometimes an idea, like M\u0101ori seats in T\u0101maki, reaches a critical mass with support from a wide range of people. In 2009 it was time for this positive step. Everyone was ready to support an option, even if people were not sure how many seats, whether mana whenua or M\u0101ori roll, or how it would play out. The communities were ready to acknowledge that Western democracy needed modification for a Pacific reality and as a step towards a te Tiriti relationship. The people were ready, but the Government denied them. Many of them stood on Takaparawhau in 1978. I stood there 6 months pregnant with the hope that my child would live in a just, Treaty-based society. But that child is now 30 years old and we are not there yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI remember Simon Bridges saying on the select committee that he got elected and that he has M\u0101ori whakapapa, which proves that we do not need the seats. But did he campaign as a member of his hap\u016B seeking to advance tino rangatiratanga to the people of Tauranga? Was that the public platform that he campaigned on in his electorate? Then we have Ray Ahipene-Mercer on the Wellington City Council, who opposed M\u0101ori seats. But he admitted that he could not get elected by campaigning on M\u0101ori issues. He could only get elected by campaigning on environmental issues. Enough said. One cannot get there by being who one is. One cannot get there by representing one\u2019s hap\u016B. One can only get there by acting as an individual. That is the Westminster system, and it does not work. We are in Aotearoa. It is time to recognise te Tiriti. It is time to modify our democracy in a step towards the 1840s agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EPeople were really clear in their submissions. They were really passionate. They were really diverse. So it is incredibly disappointing to see the Minister and the Government fail the people on this issue. Many of us walked in the rain on the h\u012Bkoi with an expectation that the new inclusive Government would be more flexible. As the people said on that h\u012Bkoi: \u201CKa whawhai tonu m\u0101tou, ake, ake, ake.\u201D If members do not know, that means: \u201CWe will fight on for ever.\u201D The people will fight on for ever, because they have not been heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is very, very disappointed that a select committee that promoted reasonableness has failed the critical test in our time. It is not often that this country is prepared to step up on this issue. God knows, I know, having worked as a Treaty educator for the last 25 years, how hard it has been to get P\u0101keh\u0101 to step up. And when they step up what does the Government do? When they step up they are ignored. The passion of all those communities has been trashed, and it is being trashed again before this Committee today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EI say again to those people out there: do not give up. We will not be giving up. The Green Party will certainly not be giving up. Ka whawhai tonu m\u0101tou, ake, ake, ake. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf3c11208e834ebeb00684072956ae1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf3c11208e834ebeb00684072956ae1f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak against this legislation. I feel that I can bring some experience to this debate, having been the Minister of Local Government between 2002 and 2005. [Interruption] Thank you very much, Mr Hawkins, for those kind words. Indeed, the Local Government Act, which I guess will be the overriding document to fit this legislation around, currently stands in my name. So I have quite a passionate interest in this legislation. I am also an Aucklander, which will have a direct impact on my life, and on where I live, and on the communities of Te Atat\u016B, Henderson, Kelston, Massey, and Glendene, which I represent in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EIt was the Labour Government that set up the royal commission to look at Auckland governance. In the 3 years that I served as the Minister of Local Government, I had a very frustrating experience at times dealing with myriad conflicting ambitions among the seven Auckland territorial authorities, especially around the issue of transport organisation, which is so critical for our city. The Labour Government recognised that some improvement needed to take place in the governance structures of Auckland. Indeed, almost every local body politician one spoke to in the Auckland region agreed with that. It was just about finding a way forward. The royal commission was set up, it went through an exhaustive process, it had lots of excellent submissions, it had great participation from the public, and it came out with a report. But what did the new Government do with it? It adapted it to suit its own agenda. That is why the Labour Party cannot accept the bill as it stands before the Parliament. Catherine Delahunty from the Green Party spoke for about 10 minutes about her passion, her determination for the Green Party to see M\u0101ori representation in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EWe have had lots of speeches about that today, and I want to compliment my colleague Phil Twyford and his team, who have been so active in giving the Labour Party\u2019s point of view on this legislation, and why we cannot support it. They have also touched on the critical aspect of having all of Auckland\u2019s communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fcaf195d62e4e0db853ae6dd96279d1\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s emotional.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8dcf93cc2c241c38ebf34892c54da19\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because I care about the city I live in. I care about the communities that are there. I care about the diversity of the city, and how it will be represented as this new super-city. It is really important that \u201Clocal\u201D means local, that the M\u0101ori community and the other communities of Auckland have a say and a participation in how their city is governed, and that they have a say in what happens in regard to the many rules that are made in that city and that impact on their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI heard Mr Hide this morning on National Radio saying that one vote means one vote for all. Of course, the reality is not quite as simple as that. I know that in the 3 years that I was Minister of Local Government one of the issues I was very concerned about then\u2014and Local Government New Zealand said it was concerned about it\u2014was the under-representation of M\u0101ori people in local government. There are very, very few M\u0101ori elected to community boards, to councils, and as mayors\u2014very few. The reality is that there are barriers to participation. Those barriers are about having the resources to stand; they are about having the widespread appeal to the population. It is a reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EIt is no good to wring one\u2019s hands in here, or come up with populist nonsense on Radio New Zealand as Rodney Hide did this morning, saying that one vote means one vote for all. That is not the reality. We recognise that in this Parliament. We have set aside designated M\u0101ori seats. We have done that for over 100 years because we have said that the role and status of the original people of this land\u2014the tangata whenua, the indigenous people of New Zealand\u2014is such that they have a special status. We are all equal, yes, but it does not mean that we are all the same. The reality is that M\u0101ori have, first of all, a unique constitutional position in New Zealand as represented in this Chamber with separate M\u0101ori seats, but also the reality is that the 16 percent of the population that is of M\u0101ori heritage does face barriers to participation in local government. That is the reality. We can just look at the statistics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EWhy would we not have M\u0101ori seats in Auckland? Why would we not give an opportunity where people are elected to stand as councillors in the new Greater Auckland Council to participate in that council, and compete equally in those seats against other candidates for designated M\u0101ori seats? It would absolutely improve the participation and involvement of tangata whenua in Auckland. We want everybody else to be participating as well. Progressive councils in Auckland have already set out to implement one of the ways to do that. In Waitakere City, where I live, we have the Waitakere Ethnic Board, which provides a voice and representation for the many emerging communities in Waitakere city that trace their heritage to Asia, to the Middle East, to Africa, to Latin America. We also have a Pacific Advisory Board and a M\u0101ori advisory board, all of which have an active role in shaping how Waitakere City decides on policies and programmes that impact on the lives of the citizens of all those communities who live in our city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EOn that basis I would like to support the amendment put up by my Chinese colleague from the Labour Party, Raymond Huo, who proposes to set up by amendment an Asian Advisory Board as part of this legislation. I know that Raymond Huo will not be wanting just an Asian Advisory Bard; he will be hoping that we have a Pacific one. I would rather see M\u0101ori councillors, but if we are not going to see that at the moment\u2014we hope we might in the future\u2014at least let us have a M\u0101ori advisory board, as well. This is all about participation. It is about really putting the \u201Clocal\u201D into local. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI see the Minister in the chair at the moment is Pansy Wong, who was New Zealand\u2019s first Kiwi of Chinese heritage to be elected to our Parliament. She is not the only one, of course; we have Raymond Huo from Labour, now. I am wondering how Miss Wong feels about this Asian Advisory Board. She and I are matched together all over New Zealand at ethnic events, because for 6 years I was the Minister for Ethnic Affairs and I am still the spokesman for Labour. I have heard her say so often since the election: \u201CWe want real participation for Asian New Zealanders, a real voice in shaping how New Zealand develops.\u201D I have to say to Miss Wong that here is her chance to actually do something about that. I ask her to support Raymond Huo\u2019s amendment to set up an Asian Advisory Board. She has talked so often in the last 6 months about real participation and real decision-making by Asian New Zealanders, and here is her chance to actually do something about that. Here is her chance to say: \u201CRight, I went against the National Party. I said that Raymond Huo is right; it is about participation. It is about putting the \u2018local\u2019 back into local government, and I voted for his amendment.\u201D Of course, we all know that she is not going to do that, because she so often has proven in the 6 months she has had the job that she is just a mouthpiece for National\u2019s policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe thing I am really worried about is Auckland\u2019s assets. Some of our cities like Manukau City and Waitakere City have been vigilant about guarding our assets. The ratepayers through their council ownership have the port company and they have some airport shares left. I ask Mr Twyford how many billion dollars of assets there are in Auckland at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af4d9ccb07284f5fa69f6980e1e13a14\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty-eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239bb2393ab4f44259fb4cd161c8a9c3d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There are $28 billion of assets in Auckland at the moment. I wonder whether for Mr Hide and his greedy little ACT Party of exploiters and profiteers\u2014we know them so well from the 1980s and 1990s, do we not\u2014it is actually $28 billion worth of Auckland assets that this is all about. Is it not strange that Auckland is to be amalgamated into a sort of greater Reich, but Wellington, with its myriad of councils, is not to be touched? I wonder whether that has a lot to do with the $28 billion worth of assets. Mr Key made a promise that he would not sell any assets in the first term of a National Government. No such promise has been made about local body assets. I wonder whether Auckland, with its beautiful little treasure chest of $28 billion worth of local assets, is really what Mr Hide and his mates are after. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThis legislation is fatally flawed. It has been rammed through under urgency. Here we are in urgency again this week going through this process. It defies and goes against the bulk of submissions that the public made to the royal commission. It defies the royal commission in a number of critical ways; one of them, which I guess is the most important and symbolic, is the M\u0101ori wards. My colleague Mr Twyford just talked about the small number of councillors\u2014that is another really important issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022801a20ee869a45bf842a213abdfa021f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022801a20ee869a45bf842a213abdfa021f\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise and give a contribution to the Committee of the whole House on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, as it relates specifically to a group of people who I think have been under-represented in this debate, and who I feel will continue to be under-represented if this bill passes in its current form. The group that I am speaking about comprises 37 percent of Auckland\u2019s population. It is a huge and disenfranchised group, and it is Auckland\u2019s young people. I rise to give my contribution in support of their plight, which they put before the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBefore I do that, I will talk about the reasons why it is so important that we give a voice to young people in Auckland. I am not the only person who saw the value of doing that. The royal commission also saw the value of adding greater weight to young people\u2019s voices in the super-city. In fact, it was Rowe who was cited in the royal commission\u2019s report as stating of young people \u201C\u2026 their particular needs and interests can slip out of focus in the usual planning and priority-setting processes. All stakeholders wrestled with the question of how to get these voices heard, with most preferring a means of bringing them into the decision-making process\u2014a step further than consultation.\u201D I think the commission made its expectations very clear. It set them out not only for the Government but also for all members of the House. It is now the Government\u2019s responsibility to make those words meaningful. Unfortunately, I fear that that has not happened to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think that the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, according to what I have read and heard, received compelling submissions from the youth sector. Amongst those who contributed were the collective of youth councils and youth forums, which is a strong body in Auckland, ranging from the North Shore to Waitakere, Auckland City itself, Manukau, and other cities. The select committee received submissions from Youth Law, which submitted not once but twice at the request of members of the select committee, who saw much value in what that organisation presented. The Auckland youth - directed environmental organisation also gave its views, as did many, many more organisations. These were not just words on paper; they were not simply submissions penned by one person at a computer late at night. They were submissions that were generated after consultation with a wide group of young people\u2014young people who felt compelled to give their views on this significant issue in a way that we have not seen before. They held council meetings, open forums, and consultation processes. They talked not only to their peers but also to those in senior positions around them who could guide them on how to best ensure that their voices were heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe engagement from the youth sector was genuine, and it deserved a genuine response from this Government and from this House. I fear that at the time of presenting the submissions some of those submitters did not always get the respect they deserved, but each submitter advocated for one simple purpose. Submitters did so in different ways, but they submitted for one simple purpose: that their role in the super-city be legislated for. They did not ask for a tokenistic nod in their direction. They did not ask to be acknowledged as a special-interest group that would be consulted from time to time. They asked that 37 percent of Auckland\u2019s population be given a voice at the table, and they did so in a very considered way\u2014and, why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EWhy is it necessary that this particular group of people not be treated like a special-interest group, as the current legislation does? Why do they deserve more than that? As the Government should acknowledge, young people are a huge group. We have already covered that point. Young people have a limited ability to engage in the political process. They cannot vote locally unless they have reached the age of 18, yet a large number of them are affected by the decisions that are made, although they have no formal say in the process. And young people are currently under-represented when they can vote. I ask the Government how many young people will be elected via this uber ward - based system, which means that councillors will be in charge of very large wards. How many young people will be elected through that process? I venture to suggest that there will be very, very few. Beyond that we have the additional international obligations provided by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. There is also the additional uncertainty that the existing youth councils and forums face in the transitional process. Those are all reasons why young people deserve to have a seat legislated for them at the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI want to talk about what my Supplementary Order Paper does to remedy the fact that the Government\u2019s response to young people has been tokenistic at best. They have been told that they are a special-interest group and nothing more than that, so I put it to the Government that it has the opportunity to support, in a genuine way, the call made by these young people by supporting my Supplementary Order Paper. It is very simple. My amendments mirror the structures that have been set in place by the Government, with a council and local boards. It establishes parallel bodies. At the top layer there is a youth council, which will have a representative from each of the territorial areas. These youth representatives will be selected by territorial youth forums covering areas that mirror the local board areas, the idea being that young people would therefore have a formal way to come together and have input into the work of the local boards and of the Auckland Council. We have also requested that these structures be afforded all of the relevant support required in order to ensure that they can function appropriately. I tried to ensure that my Supplementary Order Paper means that the greatest possible number of children and young people can participate in the process, and that the local boards have a ready and easy-to-use structure through which to engage with the 37 percent of their populations that are young people whom they purport to represent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI see no reason why the Government should have any qualms with regard to supporting my Supplementary Order Paper and, therefore, supporting the young people of Auckland generally. Why do I feel so much confidence that the Government will support my Supplementary Order Paper? Well, it supported every submission that came before it in the select committee. At this point I extend a challenge to the Government, and more specifically to the youngest member of the select committee, Ms Kaye. She is young, and as a Government member of the select committee she also heard the submissions from these young people. She supported their submissions, and reassuring nods were given across the table when they talked about legislating for youth representation. They were told that their voices mattered, yet now I am told that the Government is unlikely to support my Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI call on the Government to not disenfranchise a group of young people when there is no reason for doing that. I call on the Government to not make another generation of young Aucklanders cynical about this process. It is not good enough to tell the young people who engaged in good faith in the select committee process that now, when there is a Supplementary Order Paper that deals with their issues, their plight should instead be shoved off into an omnibus bill in a third round of legislation. That will be 6 months down the track, and we do not even know yet whether it will contain these references. We can deal with the issue now. I also say to the Government members who nodded at the select committee, told young people that this was not their time and that they must wait until after this bill passed to see whether they had crowed loudly enough to get their representation addressed in the third round of legislation, that that is not good enough. Those young people submitted in good faith, their submissions were heard in good faith, and they should be adopted in good faith. Unless the Government can give me a reason why they should not be heard and have their representation dealt with now, I will continue to pursue my Supplementary Order Paper and expect it to be adopted wholeheartedly. Unless I hear a good reason why that should not occur, I will continue to advocate on behalf of young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EMy final plea is that the Government does not act cynically towards these young people and does not create another generation of disenfranchised, cynical young Aucklanders, because doing that will come back to bite it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u00227c4404b83762412a9b7005933ad55d4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c4404b83762412a9b7005933ad55d4a\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to continue the theme of the advisory boards. However, I want to know why members from ethnic communities who are members of the Government are not standing up to take a call. Why are they not advocating for the interests of the ethnic communities of New Zealand, particularly those in Auckland? Those members mix amongst them day in and day out. They know day by day what their interests are. They know day by day what they are saying about what Auckland needs to do to capitalise on their interests, capitalise on what ethnic communities bring to Auckland, and capitalise also on what they are saying. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance was very clear about their interests. It talked about them, but Mr Bakshi just sits here. He has returned to the House refreshed. More than any one of us, he should be advocating for the interests of the very communities he has come from, rather than reading the newspaper in the House, which is what that National member has been doing. Members from the particular communities that we come from are privileged to be in this House and privileged to represent our communities, and there comes a time when we need to stand up and say what the people are saying. Rather than reading the newspaper, he should tell us what the people are saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ELabour members have moved amongst them. The people have said that they have come to New Zealand to make a solid contribution. They have committed totally to this process. They have brought their families, they have burnt their bridges in many cases, and they are committed to New Zealand. They want to contribute. What did the royal commission say? These are important members of the Auckland community. There must be a way for them, firstly, to be elected, and, secondly, to participate. What is the best way that they can participate? By having their own advisory boards. Will those members cross the floor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAs for the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, she had one chance. This was one time that that Minister could have gained the same kudos that the previous Government did. The previous Government established the Office of Ethnic Affairs, and it is doing great work. The Minister asked her staff to go up and down the country to teach ethnic communities how to make submissions, and what do you know? They did. The ethnic communities learnt very quickly. They made submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, but there has not been one word from those members about those submissions, not one representation in favour of ethnic communities making their voices heard through advisory boards. Why are those members not doing that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EWhat do the ethnic communities bring to New Zealand? They are the defining characteristic of Auckland. They will, before long, represent 20 percent of our population. They are committed to this country. They are committed to Auckland, the city I love and the city in which I live. They want to bring their children up there. They want to use whatever intelligence they have to make Auckland a great city. They want their businesses to do well. They want their religious practices to do well. They want the super-city to really respond to those things. How do those members think it will respond? How can the super-city really understand the interests of those communities, day in and day out? Or is the Government interested only in making it appear that it thinks it is good that we have a multi-ethnic Auckland, and that it is committed to what the ethnic societies bring? We all love going to their functions. We all love attending them, saying hello in their languages, and eating their food. But when the time comes to enable them to participate in a way that is fundamentally the right of every New Zealand citizen, Government members are silent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ENot only that; they are silent on the interests of youth, as well. As my colleague Jacinda Ardern just said, youth will not vote but they will make a solid contribution. The one expectation that our young people in the 21st century have is to be taken seriously by Governments. That is how they want to participate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe same is said about our Pacific communities. The Government has discounted the interests of M\u0101ori. What is it about this Government, which says the right words about our ethnic people, which talks about the advantages of having them in our midst, but when it comes to enabling them to participate reverts to type? What is that type? That type is determined now by the ACT Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u00228438b8056de74e498e341cc3ea392427\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228438b8056de74e498e341cc3ea392427\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to rise to speak to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, particularly in relation to the Asian Advisory Board. But before I do that, can I say that I had a lot of time for John Carter, until recent times. He was the chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and I believe he did a great job while we were listening to the submitters. We went to all parts of Auckland. I had the opportunity to sit with him and listen to a lot of the submissions. Every time, he raised hopes. There were high hopes of John Carter. I am really disappointed to see that he has been rolled over. He has been ruled out, again. I thought he had a lot of influence in the National Party, but it looks like he has been ruled out. Time and again I heard that he was very sympathetic to M\u0101ori seats and to the M\u0101ori people. We heard them in Rodney, we heard them in Manukau, we heard them at the subcommittee, but it looks like John Carter has been ruled out. After all the good things he said in the select committee process, I am very disappointed about that. I thought he was a person who stands up for what he believes in, but, clearly, he has given up on this particular occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAsian people have been in this country for 130 years. I am quite sure that National Party members do not realise that. Asians have been around for a long time. A lot of people came from China, and I am sure Pansy Wong knows that. They have been around for 130 years, but it was not until 1996 that Asian people entered Parliament. I pay respect to Pansy Wong. She came in in 1996. She has been around, but what has she done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c180bc74b094ea8a2ae67b13e1094db\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has she been in Parliament all that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71bfc6d1e5242488be5c25b9d99c1e9\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY\u003C/span\u003E: All that time, but all she has done is attend Diwali functions and Chinese New Year functions, and that is about all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42ea27a9f844196a4790cefe21cef1f\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Free feeds!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cdb1eefd2a4faa858ce49604dff563\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY\u003C/span\u003E: For free feeds and to say hello to people in all their languages. That is about all she has done. Now she is joined by Mr Bakshi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517fdef8d5e24cfbaa60b8672c249e10\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t even turn up for the free feeds!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd108588188481fb413366351071cf5\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY\u003C/span\u003E: He is also turning up for the free feeds. I want to ask those members one question: have they raised an Asian or ethnic issue in their caucus? Have they asked any questions of the Prime Minister as to why something has not been done? Have they asked John Carter what he has done for Asian people? Those members have done nothing. I would like them to take a call to tell us their side, to tell us what they have done for the Asian and ethnic people of Auckland regarding, particularly, Auckland governance. Nearly 20 percent of the population of Auckland is Asian, and that population is growing. Those people will have no opportunity to be represented on the Auckland Council. It is very clear that in the election Mr Bakshi got 7 percent fewer votes in Manukau East than the National Party. Those are the real statistics. They mean that even National Party people did not support him and did not vote for him. Similarly, Ravi Musuku got 7 percent fewer votes than the National Party. People voted for the party but not for those candidates. Recently Melissa Lee got 17 percent of the vote in Mt Albert, half of the National Party\u2019s vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247fbc9a969dc43e0b7f719cff2a4ce56\u0022\u003EHon George Hawkins\u003C/span\u003E: Where is she?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3084fcccbf4d58a0c1cfe1ef118faa\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY\u003C/span\u003E: She is not taking any calls. Those members think they represent the ethnic people of Auckland, but they are not speaking up. They are not taking up their cause with their caucus, the Prime Minister, or the Minister concerned. They do not want to do that, because they think they will be gone. The Auckland community is very diverse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d806b4e2b83c4d0dbe126a9e911080ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d806b4e2b83c4d0dbe126a9e911080ca\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E My amendment to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill proposes that a new clause 12B be inserted after clause 12A. The new clause 12A establishes an Asian Advisory Board, and its purpose is to perform an advisory role for the governing body in relation to its decisions relating to the Asian community, to represent the views of the Asian community, and to enable the participation of the Asian community in the decision-making process of the Auckland Council. Membership of the board will be determined by the governing body in consultation with Asian communities and community leaders within the Auckland region. The Asian Advisory Board will have no fewer than four members appointed by a majority vote of the governing body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThis morning I received an email from Professor Manying Ip, a prominent scholar and Asian community leader, which included her blessing and endorsement. The reason she gave for endorsing my amendment was a simple one: sheer demographics mean that Asians cannot be ignored in any plans for Auckland. The 2006 census found that 234,222 people were recorded as belonging to the Asian ethnic group and living in the Auckland Regional Council area. Chinese made up 42 percent of those, Indian 31.8 percent, Korean 9.1 percent, Filipino 4.2 percent, Japanese 2.3 percent, Sri Lankan 2.2 percent, and Cambodian and Thai 1.4 percent each. Roughly, Asians make up 13 percent of the population of Auckland, which is the largest demographic after Europeans and M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAuckland is the first port of call for many immigrants, and most of them stay there. With about two-thirds of all new Asian migrants settling in Auckland, it is there that the changes are most apparent. Auckland absorbs a disproportionate share of this growth, with an estimated future growth of about 51 percent for the Asian population up to 2016, compared with 46 percent for New Zealand as a whole. The report by the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance pointed out that ethnic minorities are under-represented on Auckland\u2019s councils. After the 2007 elections, 84 percent of the members of Auckland\u2019s councils identify as European, 9 percent as M\u0101ori, 4 percent as Pacific, and 4 percent as Asian. The royal commission report provided profiles for Pacific and Asian people in Auckland and identified the challenges that are faced in terms of housing, health, wages, education, skills development, transportation, and socio-economic issues. The royal commission pointed out that engagement with Asian and Pacific communities was critical to improving governance relationships and improving strategies aimed at increasing socio-economic productivity goals. It recommended establishing advisory panels for Pacific, Asian, and other ethnic communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EHowever, the bill, as drafted, does not include Asian representation in the reorganisation of Auckland governance. The Supplementary Order Paper that the Labour ethnic caucus introduced moves to enhance and guarantee such representation. Many Auckland councils already use formal structures, such as advisory groups, to ensure that the voices of certain groups in society are heard. An Asian Advisory Board that sits within local government structures would be a proper forum. As honourable members can tell, we are not asking for privilege or for a seat or seats; we are asking for a form of recognition and a proper right of representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI urge the Government\u2019s Asian MPs to support the proposed amendments. Under MMP we now have six Asian honourable members of Parliament, three on this side and three on the other side. Again, I urge National\u2019s Asian MPs to support our proposed amendments and work together for this productive, hard-working proportion of the new regime\u2019s population. It is not about politics; it is about what is best for the people of Auckland. We need to work together to ensure that our ethnic community has a say in the future of Auckland. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfaf8a5b043b463daa13f108a3f4ff75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfaf8a5b043b463daa13f108a3f4ff75\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E That was a speech made by Raymond Huo, who is a member of the Labour Party and a wonderful advocate for people of Chinese ancestry. He was speaking up on behalf of the many communities of Asian descent in the Auckland region. But unfortunately from members on the other side of the Chamber there is only silence. They have been gagged and, no doubt, instructed by Mr Hide to stay silent. Their silence also gives the impression that they are not listening and that they have already made up their minds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour will continue to advocate for M\u0101ori seats because it is the right thing to do. Labour will continue to advocate that we have advisory bodies on the new council that allow participation by Asian communities, Pacific communities, and young people. It has been said by some members from the other side of the Chamber that Auckland is a gifted city, yet when it comes to actually doing something about allowing for the full potential of the city to be realised, it is not in the governance structure put forward by the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Nothing in the structure encourages full participation of the diverse populations of the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAt a later stage I will move an amendment to this bill, adding a new clause that would establish a Pacific Advisory Board. Its purpose would be to perform an advisory role for the governing body in relation to its decisions relating to Pacific Island communities; to represent the views of the Pacific Island communities; and to enable participation of the Pacific Island community in the decision-making processes of the Auckland Council. The membership of that advisory board would be determined by the governing body in consultation with Pacific communities and Pacific leaders within the Auckland region. The Pacific Advisory Board would have no fewer than four members, appointed by a majority vote of the governing body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIt is important that I spell that out, because on the other side of the Chamber fear drives the members\u2019 determination not to allow for M\u0101ori participation, and not to allow for participation by Asian communities or Pacific communities. There is fear on the other side of the Chamber. The Government does not want young people to participate. If we are looking to the future\u2014and this structure will be in place for the next 50 to 100 years\u2014is it not right to ensure that we put in place a structure that allows full participation from all the communities of that region? If our aim is to ensure that everybody is able to receive a good quality of life, should we not ensure that the structure has everybody in it? Should we not ensure that the structure is able to realise the full potential that exists in all those communities? There is strong commitment from this side of the Chamber that everybody in that region has a significant role to play, and that it is important for this Government to be able to provide that structure and the particular process to enable it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI have seen my counterpart on the other side of the Chamber, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, advertise furiously in many local newspapers with Mr Key, saying that they were listening, willing, and accessible to Pacific communities. But I have to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c447bd2884747bb8074ed5981b77510\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Missing in action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022047885527904411485fbab1e8ad82d77\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there is really no action. It is not in the structure in this legislation. What the Government is saying does not align with what it is about to do. Through this structure, it is giving power to a handful, and\u2014with the greatest respect to this Committee\u2014it is a handful of middle-class white males, who will dominate the council. It has been purposely structured in that way. The Government is deleting the structures that allow representation from all of the different cultures in the area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u002237b307fe329f4c0cb26d137bf64852ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237b307fe329f4c0cb26d137bf64852ec\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Last night I spoke about the missed opportunities in this process. An opportunity to really engage with Aucklanders\u2014to use it as a way of ensuring that we strengthen local government and strengthen understanding and participation in local government\u2014was undermined by the processes used by this Government. I will continue to speak about those missed opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOne missed opportunity relates to recognising and responding to the diversity that is Auckland. Diversity is the strength of Auckland; for those of us who live in Auckland, it is one thing we really love about living in Auckland. The diversity has a whole bunch of economic and social benefits for all of us, but, frankly, the Government is failing to deal with this question. I stand here supporting colleagues who have already put forward Supplementary Order Papers to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill around issues like the Pacific Advisory Board, an Asian Advisory Board, and a Youth Council. These structures will facilitate greater involvement and will recognise that diversity. They will provide benefits not only for those particular groups, but also for the rest of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI ask a particular question of a couple of the MPs in the Chamber. I want to know why they have not got up to speak on the possibility, for example, of an Asian Advisory Board. Why is the Hon Pansy Wong sitting over there and not engaging in this debate, at all? She is failing to get up and represent people in Auckland, and the ethnic communities in particular. What about Kanwaljit Bakshi? What is he doing? As someone has said to me, perhaps that silence is his valedictory. Frankly, he is not exactly getting up and telling us about the communities in Auckland that he has dealings with, and he should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIt is not just those MPs. Where are the other Auckland MPs? Where are they and why are they not dealing with this question? The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance talked quite significantly about migrant and refugee communities in Auckland, and it recognised the absolute fact that Auckland is by far the most culturally diverse city in New Zealand, with well-established migrant populations. The proportion of Auckland\u2019s population that was born outside New Zealand has grown in a very short period of time, from 23 percent in 1986 to 37 percent in 2006. So a huge proportion of Aucklanders were not born in Auckland. We need to make sure we are doing a better job of engaging those communities and ensuring they have a voice, because I think we all know, if we are honest, that at the moment there is a real representation gap for many Aucklanders. If we look particularly at those new migrant and refugee communities we see that there is certainly a representation gap. As Jacinda Ardern eloquently outlined before, that is also the case for young people, and, as Su\u2019a William Sio has said, there is also a representation gap for Pacific people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EEthnic diversity in Auckland is increasing, and there will be different requirements and needs. Ms Kaye can sit across the Chamber and whistle all she likes, but the reality is that this is a very important question. I do not know the figures for Auckland Central, but in the Maungakiekie electorate\u2014and where is the MP for Maungakiekie? He has been strangely silent during this debate. Let me tell members about the figures for Maungakiekie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223cc626168744c70acedf0678a9ffc98\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I ask for your assistance in reminding the member\u2014and it has been an ongoing theme\u2014that it is not appropriate to refer to members who are not present in the Chamber. We all need to take some time to be elsewhere to continue with our duties, and therefore it is inappropriate to refer to a member\u2019s absence. I ask for your assistance in this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c216cb0b655f4f0b87a502455727a0fe\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It was a very simple reference: \u201CWhere is the member?\u201D. We know that the member has not taken a call. His absence from the Chamber would not have been recognised were it not for the fact that the junior National whip has, by way of her point of order, drawn further attention to it. It is my view that the comment was a passing reference rather than a heavy focus. I remind you, Mr Chairperson, that this matter is not covered in a Standing Order; it is a convention. It is a convention and not a requirement in this Chamber. If members choose to breach conventions, clearly there is some risk, which goes both ways. But it is not a requirement of the Standing Orders not to refer to the absence of members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365ae0d1fb3440dea1256a5b64fac0b2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I draw members\u2019 attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 24/8: \u201CIt is a convention that we do not make reference to the fact that a member is away or is not in the member\u2019s seat.\u201D A convention, in my view, is as strong as a rule. Convention is the kawa of this Chamber. Who turns up at a marae and says that they will ignore the kawa of the marae? People do not do that, and I advise the member that he would be very unwise to do so here. If it is the kawa of this place that we do not refer to the absence of a member, then we abide by it. I say to the member who spoke last, Trevor Mallard, that I would have had some sympathy for his comments had it not been for the fact that he was shouting out interjections about where he thought the member was, and was making the situation very clear. I see by his smile that he accepts he is guilty as charged. I say to members that it is a convention, so let us respect the convention just as we would respect the kawa of a marae. The kawa of this place is that we do not make passing references to the absence of members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d19b93f174b43e8b06857fe46206990\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Is it appropriate to refer to the absence of Trevor Mallard even if he is present?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e174bbe34e9d4702ad25058a9322e9cf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order. I point out to members that we have successfully frittered away the time, and it is now 1 o\u2019clock and time for the suspension for lunch. Before members go, I draw their attention to an agreement reached by the Business Committee. In accordance with its decision, question time will be held today at 2 o\u2019clock. After that, Carol Beaumont will have 1 minute and 16 seconds remaining to speak, if she wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fb16d73add24920b157b2ff4618451c\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022697489c985194ac2a7af5d763174e659\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002258f3f44dd8e448daa291ca481f2cbdd7\u0022\u003EMining\u2014Minerals Stocktake in Conservation Areas\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E1.\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264413f5136c84a9f9d808aaac7a41e78\u0022\u003E METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What does he hope to achieve by his stocktake of minerals in New Zealand\u2019s highest-value conservation areas, as announced in his August 26 speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226ffec414fe4e4789b057e468d7a722d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ffec414fe4e4789b057e468d7a722d2\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E The purpose of the stocktake is to identify areas of land in schedule 4 where the conservation values are relatively low but mineral potential high. The Government will consider removing those areas of land from schedule 4 so that environmentally responsible mining can take place on very small sections within that land. New Zealand is a mineral-rich country, and responsible mining of low-value conservation areas can contribute significantly to job and economic growth in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c136bbed3f49d79a230dd8c78d6547\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: When he said in his speech that \u201CA report circulated by the World Bank some years ago rated New Zealand second in the world in terms of natural wealth per capita.\u201D was he aware that minerals, in that report, account for just 3 percent of New Zealand\u2019s natural wealth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e0ca25382a943d296fb63390a0132b8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The important point that the member misses is that per capita, New Zealand ranks behind only Canada as a mineral-rich country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca66221e33a4c04a30d25c8c3db7843\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister used the World Bank report to justify his desire to pillage our most valuable conservation land, was he aware that these magnificent places make up 20 percent of our natural wealth, compared with minerals making up just 3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1080e02319c462081d6990a30c799ba\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have no desire, nor has the Government, to \u201Cpillage our most valuable conservation land\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022581acd222a09405388c9f78225e8490b\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports that support the Government\u2019s objective of balancing economic objectives with environmental responsibility; if so, what do the reports say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb99dc0f32b4975bc2b8ebeea94f7ca\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report in the form of a press release in support of that goal from a very surprising source. In 2006 the person concerned issued a press release about the requirement for Solid Energy to move 250 Augustus snails to make way for the expansion of Solid Energy\u2019s Stockton mine. That person said \u201CThis case clearly shows that it is possible to balance the economic concerns of miners and the conservation concerns of protecting endangered species in such a way that all parties are happy,\u201D. It may surprise the House to learn that the person I have just quoted is none other than Metiria Turei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb570b5c9414f38950e2cd7767ac1fd\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Why will the Minister not admit his error and stop taking steps to allow mining in national parks, given that the head of the Minerals Industry Association is on record, just a week ago, as saying that even the industry does not want to mine in national parks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb2082bc98c4c6fbebd773aeb8c5f94\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has not said that we are going to mine in national parks. We have said that we are going to take stock of some of the land that is currently in schedule 4 that has low conservation value. The last Government, just 1 month before the last election, put an extra 1.2 million hectares in schedule 4. We want to know how much of that land has some mineral value. There is nothing wrong with looking at the conservation estate to see what the value might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b35342d5dd64145b6bf3536607ea467\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister not been advised that the definition of \u201Cstocktake\u201D is preparation for retail, and does he really expect New Zealanders to believe that he is spending all that money and effort to prepare the stock, with no intention of selling it off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c60d6cfb3b194f238eff4670587ac089\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am fascinated to receive an English lesson from the Green Party. All I will say is I would have thought that after all the Greens\u2019 years of electoral failure, they themselves might take stock of where they are at in this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc9c47c0-4409-44ca-ad2f-498707f27d69\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298ca66a9010c4c209cde811ddfa8df5b\u0022\u003EJonathan Young\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of environmentally responsible mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77ba39e6cb04536b35c2fdd2f2d521a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There are large economic benefits from responsible mining. Mining in New Zealand uses just 40 square kilometres of land, which is less than 0.015 percent of New Zealand\u2019s total land area, and the export value of mining that land is $175,000 per hectare. Dairy farming, by comparison, uses 20,000 square kilometres of our land mass, with an export value of only $3,500 per hectare. In 2008 coal, metal, industrial minerals, and their production were worth over $2 billion in value, and supported thousands of jobs throughout New Zealand. If Labour and the Greens want to put those people out of work, they should campaign on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d63e710ce5b40d39c03440981cf0f33\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister shot himself in the foot by using the World Bank report, was he also aware that the remaining 77 percent of our immense natural wealth lies in our farms and forests, which themselves are utterly dependent on the services that our conservation land provides, like clean water, fertile soils, pollination, biodiversity, and even our \u201C100% Pure New Zealand\u201D brand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab4935eccef425aa28786f7fd1343a0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Quite clearly and quite evidently, the member and I have different interpretations of the report concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ea2063b88a4c3a8b242658ad8cfb0e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister said in his speech that \u201C\u2026 New Zealanders need to know that this country is also well endowed with natural resources.\u201D, is it not the case that Kiwis already know how blessed we are, already know that our magnificent conservation places are like gold to the New Zealand economy, and are aghast at his attempts to plunder those areas for fool\u2019s gold and dirty coal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0f9d770cfc74b6dbfa71431dee50dc0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228441d670b4ff420799a0dc063b09b663\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has to at least attempt to answer a question properly put to him by another member of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c28f61e4b94f1dbcff580e5e1f5d05\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Unless the Minister considers it not to be in the public interest, he should answer the question. I call the Hon Gerry Brownlee. The Minister clearly has nothing to say in response to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9066bf5ec3468498bf0c04b67f9069\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: That is fine. If the Minister is simply\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d79698187847039bf5798e752b031c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5fdb5296824469a5f903a40ec0d92e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014speechless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283a0680cba9c49f2a3beeb841a181a31\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume her seat immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c449b20c0f4d73b21e815936581b1a\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to make him answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e3f7f6388b4386833e1ac9164e67b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will not interject while I am on my feet. The Minister has indicated that he has no answer to give to that question, and that is the end of that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f207cf56ab149dfa309b7f58b31a8f6\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Ministers are required to answer questions when it is consistent with the public good to do so, but questions must also be within a band of what I think are reasonably answerable questions. I have made it very clear that this Government has no intention to plunder the conservation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295cd516a802740c99a181d978f5a5e0a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. We will not now handle the question by way of points of order. The Minister chose not to give any answer to the question. That is the end of that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06bc376578d44c881d691542e75cf00\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are in unusual territory now. I think this is the first time in this term of Parliament that a Minister has refused to even get up and make any response to a question put to him or her. Mr Speaker, you accepted the question as being in order, so there was nothing wrong procedurally with the question put by Metiria Turei. I think it is important for you to indicate to the House now that if a Minister believes that answering a question is not in the public interest\u2014which is the only reason Ministers may not answer questions\u2014the Minister should get up and say that, not just sit there and do nothing. Mr Speaker, I think you have to give a steer to Ministers here, because we regard that as an unacceptable performance when you yourself had accepted the question from the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275825bac0b9941e381a9e89d49f0ab63\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is an interesting issue that has arisen. I refer members to Speaker\u2019s ruling 162/5, which states: \u201CIt is not obligatory on a Minister to answer a question. It is certainly customary but there is no sufficient reason for saying it is binding.\u201D It is the public, having heard the question and seen the Minister\u2019s refusal to answer it, that makes the final judgment on the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb45be80a89427cadf9a93ed6a43840\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to spend too much of the House\u2019s time on this issue, but a very serious concern is raised for those of us in the Opposition when a Minister can simply refuse to answer a question without giving a clear indication of the reasons for doing that, particularly as the Standing Orders are clear that a Minister can refuse to answer if answering would not be in the public interest. I expect that some serious points will be raised on this issue. Perhaps, Mr Speaker, you would give your commitment to take an opportunity outside the Chamber to consider the nature of that ruling and the implication of it. What it means is that Opposition members can go to great lengths to prepare relevant and procedurally correct questions to Ministers, yet Ministers can simply refuse to answer, without giving a justification. I am not sure whether that is the kind of process that you or the House would consider acceptable. Perhaps a commitment from you that you will give some consideration to your ruling in those circumstances would be helpful at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22fb7e8576c4d7fa31526b826f3846e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 162/5 states that a Minister does not have to answer a question\u2014I agree with that. But a Minister does have to address the question, and that is a different matter. The Minister has failed to address the question, and unless he does so on the grounds of his addressing it not being in the public interest, I suggest that, with respect, he is in breach of the Standing Orders. If that were allowed, the effect would be that question time could be rendered completely ineffective, because all of the questions from the Opposition members could be completely ignored by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b231d902ca904deea5e2fbced0af9658\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, in addition to Speaker\u2019s ruling 162/5, which you have already quoted, I draw your attention to Speakers\u2019 ruling 163/1: \u201CA Minister is not obliged to seek the call in answer to a question if the Minister does not intend to answer it.\u201D, and then it goes on. It would seem to me that that is pretty clear. Although the practice might be unusual, and even undesirable, there is certainly a clear precedent in terms of Speakers\u2019 rulings that a Minister can refuse to answer a question if he or she does not wish to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022338b3f4596324eef941c5cb2b96b0b48\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank honourable members, and I do not think I need to hear more on this. If members reflect on the situation they will quickly see that where very clear, straight questions are asked, Ministers would be very unwise to refuse to answer them, because in the court of public opinion a Minister would be condemned for refusing to do so. I think Metiria Turei might be well advised to reflect on the nature of the question she put to the Minister, and why the Minister, therefore, chose not to answer it. It is very simple: where questions are clear-cut and require an answer, no Minister is going to refuse to answer, unless it is not in the public interest to do so. But where a question is of the nature of the question that the member asked, it is in the member\u2019s own hands to ask a more penetrating question if she wants to avoid this situation occurring again. The Hon Peter Dunne is quite correct: there are a number of Speakers\u2019 rulings on this issue, and I am not going to turn all of those on their head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292557bd5-0e66-473c-a6df-7d108e7822e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ebda2c215d4baba1265404fb59cc5a\u0022\u003EDr Kennedy Graham\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If it is in the discretion of the Minister not to answer a question on the grounds that answering it is not in the public interest, would he perhaps give this House the courtesy of explaining why, in his opinion, answering the question is not in the public interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223942c295d098421d8b1651ff46985205\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is absolutely no need for that. The Minister is not required to take the call to answer the question. Had the question been a clear-cut, clear question, the Minister of course would have answered it, because the public would condemn the Minister for not doing so. I invite the honourable member Dr Kennedy Graham to look at the Hansard of his colleague\u2019s question. Doing so would be very informative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a5200ffc7943ccb3f198db761ed92e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister now willing to admit that the World Bank report upon which he relied to justify his agenda of mining in our most valuable conservation lands does not actually support his mining agenda\u2014to the contrary, it provides clear evidence as to why that would be a bad idea for New Zealand\u2019s economy, in that it is our treasured heritage, our natural forests, and our rich and fertile soils that make us a wealthy nation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81ec0b61f5a444cb44c86bc3ef073d7\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: In answering questions this afternoon I have made it clear that the Government has no intention of mining high-value conservation land. From the member\u2019s question, she does not seem to want to accept the answers given. It is no wonder that she gets no answers to her questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a7000d877434192b31838780c8cd533\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Cost of Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e49234d61ac14da3b140d5f4b421000d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: When he said in the House yesterday that the Government was interested in \u201Cmaking sure that our scheme is affordable\u201D, what specific cost estimates, if any, has he received from officials on the extra costs to the New Zealand taxpayer of the changes to the emissions trading scheme over the full phase-in period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022afd6d939d6b54af583d2a62e691f37ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afd6d939d6b54af583d2a62e691f37ae\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I have received specific cost estimates from officials in the Ministry for the Environment, the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and Treasury relating to a variety of options considered by the Government for amending New Zealand\u2019s emissions trading scheme. The official cost estimate of the changes to the emissions trading scheme during the phase-in period was $415 million. Of that figure, $162 million is for the 6-month delay in the entry of the stationary energy and industrial processes sector, a change that Labour had agreed to. The bulk of the remaining cost is for the 50 percent obligation during the phase-in period, to halve the cost to electricity and fuel users. There is also a cost of several million dollars for the additional allocations to the fishing industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e1a6773b9f4519980ab98a0a76e7ee\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: In arriving at those costs did officials rely on the lowest-possible likely market price for carbon, and did they do so in order to hide the true cost of what the Kiwi taxpayer will be spending to subsidise heavy polluters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c2be0af7e146c0bf5ecdf5ca9edd78\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, they relied on their best estimate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7923a17f36461ab456374af42d1ec8\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government in fact use an estimated carbon cost of $30 a tonne to calculate the cost of the subsidy; if so, why, when Nick Smith, in his recent announcements, has been using costs as high as $100 to $200 a tonne? How does the Prime Minister explain that discrepancy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022552b9d86594e46cc8085f827b3ba9982\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say is that I would be very surprised if the cost of carbon was $100 a tonne at any time in the foreseeable future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a13e78965144947b03d728107c69c66\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: To what degree are the Treasury estimates inconsistent with the estimates worked out by the Sustainability Council and used on radio this morning, indicating that the impact of what he is changing will be to double the taxpayer\u2019s subsidy to Rio Tinto from $1 billion to $2 billion by 2030? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c31c93791da43fc8ecb84abfae5e6c0\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I will say a few things. Firstly, I did not hear the comments from Peter Neilson this morning. I was busy speaking to a large audience of New Zealand businesses, which, I have to say, were overwhelmingly positive and grateful that their industries would remain in New Zealand. What confuses me is that when the Leader of the Opposition was roaring into his conference last Friday, he got up and said he cared about low-income New Zealanders and the price impacts of electricity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d7eb4c1d3c74ad1b2cfd1a11e3e6432\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As you will recall, the question was quite straightforward. It asked to what extent the Treasury estimates were consistent with the estimates of the Sustainability Council. The Prime Minister has, as yet, not attempted to answer or even address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8df4fa08f5433686e1667cce664c3f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Prime Minister indicated that he was unaware of the Sustainability Council\u2019s statements on the matter, but I think he has gone on long enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ead03-bf7f-496a-a02f-ce52859c58c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa99b2a550214800a4c130d85a359786\u0022\u003EHekia Parata\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Has the Prime Minister seen today\u2019s reports from Charles Chauvel saying he wants Phil Goff to write to Mr Key to reopen talks with the Government; if so, what would his response be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e0dd3b44d3e49ab85cfd32c0cbbf35c\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I welcome those reports. In reaching an agreement with the M\u0101ori Party, the Government has no reason to cease discussions with other political parties. I have long held the view that it would be a good thing to build a broad consensus around this difficult and long-term policy area, and if the Labour Party wishes to re-enter negotiations with the National Government, we will be more than happy to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265335f2ab79c4b188221ba93a0bc8f08\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister, or his officials, estimated what the extra subsidy from Kiwi taxpayers will be for major multinational companies like Rio Tinto, Holcim Cement, the oil companies, and the farming sector; if so, how many billions of dollars does that represent by the end of this process, and is that fiscally sustainable? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e57a2ecf11d478ea0cda7b28db52b09\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have not seen any analysis specific to those companies. I will make one thing clear. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331ade133d2e4d16951749c01c6b028e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do members want to hear an answer or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022271d81b2fda04e59bd5cc8280e3b97d4\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: We campaigned on an emissions trading scheme that would be fiscally neutral, not one that would rip $23 billion off the taxpayers of New Zealand. That is precisely what we have delivered. We are also in the process of delivering an emissions trading scheme that will keep Kiwi jobs, will keep New Zealanders employed, and will make sure that New Zealander can afford their electricity bills and can fill up their cars. I call that a success; the Labour Party does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022228f2c2407f84dc4846fbc790be3900f\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the deal the Prime Minister announced with the M\u0101ori Party on Monday is only an agreement to get the bill to a select committee, not into law; if so, what does he think it will cost to consummate the deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9db098c6a9649b3b709fb2547342daf\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely correct. I am actually extremely confident that over time we will reach a long-term agreement, with the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support and the support of United Future, to see the legislation passed into law. The reason for that\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598d23b7a4f242e593d6ef6a19d52cc0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Are you sure they want to consummate with you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac3561f678aa4863bd7a38ffadaee4ba\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: There is one thing I do not want to do, and that is consummate anything with you, Trevor; that is for sure. I cannot imagine what the holidays would be like\u2014not a hell of a lot of fun, I would have thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f33d7aed7e4f2ba91bd7ca8b775ce8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we have had enough of that exchange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b706962d68640a8a5f08cc5c7768fe4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that the results of this deal that he has reached will impose, over time, billions of dollars of subsidies, which will go to wealthy multinational companies like Rio Tinto; if so, how will he pay for that? Will it be by extra taxes, or will it be by cutting further areas of valuable social expenditure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a70dea5a9b4e2b877263387e2c8e2b\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not acknowledge that, because it is absolutely incorrect. The Government has made changes to the long-term reduction of assistance to industries big and small. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1ff2e114404203ab0538dd706dbdec\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How do you know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297d5ec3fa06e44028419b57f4c17e9ce\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member that he should listen to the answer for just 2 seconds and see whether it satisfies him. You never know, you might learn something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a92450112fc4e2ca3619f2b45db33cb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the Prime Minister that the Speaker is listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2672bfb6b4b47c892ba7b86b7fa2ea8\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that we have reached an agreement to reduce New Zealand\u2019s emissions by 50 percent by 2050. The situation beyond 2012 is quite uncertain, but if agreements are reached in line with the Government\u2019s 2020 policy announcement, there will be no taxpayer subsidies to industry, because support will be reduced in line with New Zealand\u2019s reduced emissions target. That is the whole point of having a \u201C50 by 50\u201D target, not a scheme that reduces those credits by 100 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844b0e6d923f4ec9a09f914ec07595bd\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. Ki te Pirimia\u2014[Interruption] Hoihoi tahi. What proposals does the Prime Minister have for the implementation of a modified emissions trading scheme to mitigate the cost impact on families, and how will he ensure that low-income households are also able to benefit from energy efficiency assistance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223987bc4ff2144fefbead979de41b2785\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: We are looking at two things. Firstly, there will obviously be an impact on inflation from the emissions trading scheme, and over time that will flow through the CPI and into benefits. We are taking a closer look at the timing of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207af2833fa534c75ac9dc8277013dc6d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e20f4dafd7409c807615970bfb771d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is actually the law. Secondly, we have received strong submissions and advocacy from the M\u0101ori Party to ensure that there will be a 100 percent subsidy for low-income families when it comes to home insulation. That is a recommendation that we are looking very favourably on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c983daca62a48c9856976296da349f5\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: In denying that the changes to the scheme will cost billions of dollars over time, as he said in his last answer, why will he not tell New Zealanders what it will actually cost; is it because he does not know that, or is it because he will not tell ordinary New Zealand taxpayers that this will cost them literally billions of dollars, when at the same time he is cutting superannuation and adult education and is doing very little to help those who are out of work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3879c1f7d0d4f00b8b5ce192ec0e090\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: For a start, we have not cut superannuation, so let us get a few things right. In fact, we have raised superannuation and left the floor at 66 percent. Secondly, as I said, subject to the negotiations at Copenhagen and the adoption of the \u201C50 by 50\u201D target, I am reasonably confident that those costs will be neutral. The third point I would make is that if Phil Goff wants to have, as his badge of honour, forcing out industries from New Zealand, putting Kiwis on the dole, and making sure that New Zealanders pay very over-inflated electricity and fuel bills, he can go ahead. But he should stop going to conferences on his motorbike or his high horse and telling New Zealanders that somehow he will cut costs for them, when he is trying to double them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707392c0727b48a8ba30d2ca1fcb9bf7\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that still to be agreed with the M\u0101ori Party is the exact wording of the Treaty clause in the legislation, the number of Treaty settlements involving trees that must be renegotiated and the extent to which they must be renegotiated, and the number of carbon credits to be allocated to iwi fishing quota holders; if not, what is still to be decided?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48e9f3faf6e47268db181b8c837967c\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: What is true is that we have not agreed on the final wording, but I can confirm that Crown Law has had an initial look at it and is comfortable with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5f913eae12d4e2e96f9ca7df6443acb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What, specifically, did the National Government offer to the M\u0101ori Party to get its agreement, and for the M\u0101ori Party to utterly contradict the claimed principled position that it held in its minority report and as recently as last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f23ed272e242b4b915076c4d66e05e\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I refute that it utterly contradicted the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s minority report. Secondly, there are a number of things. One of the things was the Treaty of Waitangi. [Interruption] Well, actually if one looks at the instance of a fixed-rate\u2014[Interruption] There are a number of things. They have been well documented, including a Treaty clause. Certainly, we are looking at a 100 percent subsidy for some low-income New Zealanders for their insulation. We are looking at a number of issues around forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c976a09ba2fc49daa1e45168804205a6\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table two documents. The first is a transcript from a Q\u002BA interview with Nick Smith on 26 July, where he answers with figures based on a carbon price of $200 per tonne, not $30 per tonne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f91c80726034e00b67c88aacbb586a7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that transcript. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f54a251be347848341fe61d756a3aa\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: The second document I wish to table is a document from the Ministry for the Environment, in which the Minister makes estimates based on a carbon price of $100 per tonne, not the $30 per tonne\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a66ef5c069745059e5fa3dd4efcee01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document from the Ministry for the Environment. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df990db3bf4242e98c9679a5b8d878d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table the last fiscal estimates under the Labour Government, which included exactly the same carbon price that is being used by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a1f61a251eb4c2a97c219d987face48\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this the published fiscal estimates? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259fcb62705ee4e67a80bd264d7ac53e7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022875d4a0a4c264c509ee9f764cd5ab70b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. [Interruption] The House is not clear on it. Would the Hon Dr Smith make clear exactly what the document is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01d2c6f79364fca9e6a5464d60646f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Last year the last Budget that was presented by the Labour Government had a price for carbon that is exactly the same as the price methodology used for the carbon price today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2c80dadddd40529dc36677fab002cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made it clear now. The member is seeking leave to table a document from last year\u2019s Budget. [Interruption] Just as I have to do for others, I have to put the leave request. Members can refuse it if they wish to. [Interruption] Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2c8982090eb4c509b1407aa3467181b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00228732b8b0c4df44f58df0e96f13f6ca7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228732b8b0c4df44f58df0e96f13f6ca7d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table seven documents related to question No. 1. The first document is a World Bank report entitled Estimating National Wealth, which the Minister of Energy and Resources had referred to in his speech. The report is dated January 1998, and shows that New Zealand\u2019s conservation lands are essential to our national wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218baf7b419164fc58711dce94240d442\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9eabf58eb8481c9d15c5539b1e3731\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table an appendix from a similar but more recent World Bank report, called Where is the Wealth of Nations, dated 2006, which again shows that New Zealand\u2019s conservation lands are essential to our natural wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ad427d020a4f28b1c683d561260b30\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd0e57912b3451fa239bbc44024f072\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a photograph of the Stockton coalmine, which the Minister used as an example of responsible mining. The photograph is dated January 2009, and shows the destruction of native bush and mountains\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd0f2a4793e41dd99e7ed0e8c033cb3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EPhotograph, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c128c9d1c2349afac0094604eee148a\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table copies of the Green Party petition Save Our Treasured Places, with 150 signatures having already been gained in just a few days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224cb8e3c8c49435c9baaedef5aa567f0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Just to clarify it for the House, I understand that the petition has not yet been presented?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230153024c7664996a9e72f7e9938bac6\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: It has not been presented. This copy is for the information of members of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9fc69869ee48b2bfabef4c918986be\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a petition for which signatures are being collected. Is there any objection to it being tabled? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EPetition, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f0048ac53f4c5aa33cd38c7b6d45e5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an official list of the high-value conservation places contained in schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act compiled by the Minister of Conservation, dated 16 September 2009\u2014today\u2014and listing nearly 400 conservation places at risk of mining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e893de7e33dc4cac9d5a952ed430f11c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? [Interruption] This is a bit unusual. Could the member make clear for me exactly what the document is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206dacaee0f1c463aa5c8b5d840d5c1ee\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: The document is a list compiled by the office of the Minister of Conservation of 400 conservation places that are at risk of mining, and are in the categories contained in schedule 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220efaa48faa5248289d7880b8170d52f2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260b47a3badd04b8abb69fc6b799716e1\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: With your permission, Mr Speaker, because it did take the Parliamentary Library some time to locate this document, I seek leave to table debate in the House on 19 November 1997, when the then National Government created schedule 4 to protect some areas of the conservation estate from mining\u2014places that the Government is now investigating for the purposes of mining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fa5c5a178a41d0bdece977905975e6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is Hansard from 1997?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228efff1e611304d26b722b93dddedf67c\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: It is. It was very difficult to locate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a7e91a8c3704cb3a4dbe677c2077a00\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d1233a9ef9d4442b143d5ac60a6edbc\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an Internet notice of the Government\u2019s 2009 Conservation Week, which began on 13 September and ends at the end of this week, with the theme of \u201CGet involved and who knows?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f14a49c6f44443a9af2b37d6ebfb7714\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this currently on the Internet? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266117d4d5b4f453b82ea0634fad66567\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: It is a copy of an Internet notice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d95959982f477798318d74554ec0b3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the member is taking the time of the House to seek leave to table it. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00227a210ed80ba34e049ec78cc22cfec20b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a210ed80ba34e049ec78cc22cfec20b\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order relates to an earlier episode when the Minister of Energy and Resources refused to address a question. I draw to your attention that the Standing Orders are very clear that the Minister must address the question, unless it is in the public interest not to address it. Standing Order 377 is quite clear. You referred to quite an old Speaker\u2019s ruling, Speaker\u2019s ruling 162/5 from 1968, which states there is no obligation to answer a question, and then you referred to a later one from 1980 and 1991, Speakers\u2019 ruling 163/1, which states that a Minister is not obliged to seek the call to answer a question. I would draw your attention to a much more recent ruling, Speaker\u2019s ruling 162/4 from Speaker Wilson in 2008, where she refers to Standing Order 377. The ruling begins: \u201CA Minister must give an answer \u2018if it can be given consistently with the public interest\u2019 \u2026\u201D. It seems to me that our Speakers\u2019 Rulings are a kind of case law, if you like, and the more recent case law is the more relevant case law. The most relevant case law says that a Minister must give an answer if it can be given in the public interest. The Standing Orders totally back that up; they are, if you like, our statute law, and the statute is very clear that a Minister must address the question unless there is a public interest reason not to. It is totally up to Ministers\u2019 judgment; they judge whether answering is in the public interest. It is not your call, Mr Speaker. But that is the only basis on which a Minister can decide not to address a question. I ask you to reconsider your earlier view that a Minister can simply sit there and say nothing, without even saying that it is not in the public interest to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022231c3a9836ba45dfaa82bd9429d33627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022231c3a9836ba45dfaa82bd9429d33627\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the member\u2019s concern about the matter, but the member should please, before he takes any more of my time, read the question his colleague asked, and think a little further about it. If members want to get answers to questions in this House, they should ask questions, not make political statements. Half of the questions contain more political statement than question. I will be much more supportive of trying to ensure that an answer is given where a question is asked. I invite the member to read his colleague\u2019s supposed question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00220a82834889b343c5b2092e9f8836ec4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a82834889b343c5b2092e9f8836ec4b\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd0b31f77fc4bb6abbd159d1e2f36ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I warn the member that I have ruled on the matter, and I do not intend to take more time on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c36c7fe1ce45bfb814ff55289f3768\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN\u003C/span\u003E: All I would say, then, is if a question is asked and it is not ruled out of order\u2014because you did not rule it out of order; if you had ruled it out of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8021d1dbb4b414985c59186f19f4d7f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to waste any more time of the House on this matter. Yesterday I ruled out a question that breached the Standing Orders. I think I was unfair in doing that, and I apologise to the member to whom I did it, because it has been my practice in the House that I do not rule out questions that do not comply with the Standing Orders; I let Ministers handle them. I could have ruled out the member\u2019s question, because it contained all sorts of political statements that, in fact, the Standing Orders do not allow to be included in questions. All I ask is if members want to have a better question time, they should ask better questions, instead of making a range of political statements. Question time is not about political statements; it is about questioning Ministers and holding them to account. I promise the member I will give him all the support I can when I hear straight questions that are seeking straight answers. I do not want to waste further time of the House on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e3da5e458a94d5594b862c3abdf287a\u0022\u003ERecession\u2014Job Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8bdba78bff54d8b94f892b0aa6bfdc9\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What measures is the Government taking to support jobs as New Zealand comes out of recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002249d47d5534024512a145ec5c9d332a02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249d47d5534024512a145ec5c9d332a02\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is considering how all policy decisions affect jobs. That is why we are making pragmatic and realistic choices on issues like the emissions trading system. The Government\u2019s changes to the emissions trading system will protect thousands of jobs by ensuring that our businesses are encouraged to stay in New Zealand rather than move to other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c26822c0f60342c28409d7b36f4e82a6\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on alternative policy approaches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ae3466257248c8b6573ee2b271c3bb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard reports that the Labour Party says that it cares about jobs but, in fact, its policy includes a much tougher emissions trading scheme, with unaffordable borrow-and-hope spending promises. That would say goodbye to large companies, to growing exports, and to jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673e11e90cf44beaa1286fbe83ad2ff5\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is measuring all of his Government\u2019s policies by their impact on jobs, why has there been an increase in unemployment of 24,000, while at the same time Australia has managed to hold unemployment flat for the last 3 months\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217fc36f64f7946edb26457c01c33e53e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244961905fa114e579ad1b61c4f9d1984\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and does he not now regret not being more active in protecting Kiwi jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa4711aa8db4bfd9f3c99c3f623b442\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I had called the honourable Prime Minister\u2014I am sorry, I mean the Hon Bill English\u2014because I thought the Minister had finished his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b1b587f76e437eb954e5e6ed3db752\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s not Prime Minister yet, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5cce495648c460898d7d8e85fa56a27\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member might have listened to what I just said about questions that contain statements, and about going on indefinitely. The member had asked a perfectly good question and I was calling the Hon Bill English to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7ff7200a8c478d835a41bbd011427f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not have realised it but there has been a global recession and, in fact, our policies cannot influence that directly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fd7a8c57a2f40cc8c9404b08de580ba\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: What would be some of the other effects of large companies moving offshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa666a75765e4e51ac03f18c35a82002\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, if large companies moved offshore it would cost thousands of jobs. I am surprised that the party that says it stands up for workers advocates an emissions trading system that would cost thousands of jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5ce1e4baf14457ad2940abe02d59b7\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports about Governments saddling taxpayers with extra debt by reckless borrowing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab1eb78be984a358c84cf40b4a5b1fc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have added up the promises of Labour so far this year, which amount to $6 billion of extra borrowing. Alongside its policy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f3f83d27c784f5ba3edb1f3d4cd3a27\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think it has been traversed before in this House that, firstly, the Minister has no responsibility for Labour Party policy, and, secondly, frankly he is making up policies that Labour has not announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221204fff4c1fe434ea1eab16e4bb70ca8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of the member\u2019s point of order was well made. The Minister has no responsibility for Labour policy and I think he had gone on long enough there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209569fdac44d4d5bb385ae81303b3e69\u0022\u003EBenefits\u2014Adequacy of Current Levels\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236d07f26dfc42618797dfe54660ecea\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports, if any, has she received on the adequacy of current benefit levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00225ee4ad27aedd42b896333bc2ff69d5c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ee4ad27aedd42b896333bc2ff69d5c5\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I receive regular reports on how vulnerable New Zealand families are doing. Although I closely monitor benefit levels, I am equally concerned at the tough times facing working families in this recession. I do not want to see benefit numbers increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d145aaa80284baa9f6c993caccd7331\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is it still the Minister\u2019s position that she does not want to \u201Csee benefits going up, at all\u201D, as she stated in the New Zealand Herald today and on Television One last night; if not, what changed her mind?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762e5260a6a94fd7bde1fcf76ebc2d0a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Let me be quite clear that although it did not bother the former Labour Ministers, I do not believe that more people on benefits is OK. I am not prepared to write off families by leaving them trapped in endless welfare dependency. If I made a faux pas in the statement yesterday, it was that I meant I do not want to see increasing benefit numbers. We are legislating for CPI increases. After years under Labour when increases did not happen, we will be legislating for those CPI increases\u2014end of story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6c162c58974feca837bf76edfe86c0\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What explanation has Nick Smith given for not telling the Minister that he was negotiating with the M\u0101ori Party to increase benefit levels at the same time as she has been publicly telling New Zealanders that she will not increase benefits because we are in a recession and tough decisions have to be made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb617c4c7f084434a2f6a73c2f7a575d\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is simply not true. The M\u0101ori Party has continually raised with us its concern for low-income families, and we take that concern seriously. Members can see it in the policies that we make. Alongside the M\u0101ori Party, we understand that employment and job opportunities for M\u0101ori will make a difference for those families. We will fight for that every time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99f8c7a396740c3908103fda2befe6b\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227acc5c5d997d47e895d48c4326105bf2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The one-armed man!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a1cb04e-8a86-44d1-9004-6e158e220339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94e3fa9e7c64e43bfc060d6589facf6\u0022\u003ETim Macindoe\u003C/span\u003E: Stop slinging off. Has the Minister seen reports of how low-income families would deal with the cost of an emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223359d5b84eed421d8926970c347ed547\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I have seen reports saying that they would fare much better under the National Government\u2019s emissions trading scheme, which would cost each family only half as much as the scheme the previous Labour Government wanted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a413e819281145c383e87703de2ce87c\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that although she is the Minister for Social Development and Employment, negotiations with the M\u0101ori Party on crucial decisions that impact on the expenditure of her portfolio were left to Nick Smith, and she only found out about it from the media at 2 p.m. yesterday when she was coming to the House? What does that say about who is running her portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022756042eb0ef64570ab251b08d2f6679c\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: As the member desperately clutches for relevance, she will see that there is no big story here. Negotiations have been going on over the emissions trading scheme, which her party could not engage in in a responsible, good-faith manner. So now there is desperate clutching to try to find a story somewhere else where there simply is not one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc6846bc5184756b2479fba256d147c\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Who got it right: the M\u0101ori Party, which said it is negotiating a benefit increase; or the Minister, who said there is not one on the table? Is this not a return to the Auckland governance legislation, where the M\u0101ori Party was left with a clear impression that the Government would back M\u0101ori seats and then at the last hour was left out in the cold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022067156530ad84a1dbc4f00087b4aefba\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think members will find that the CPI increases will be happening to benefits and that will be locked in under this Government via legislation, which was not done by the previous Government. It will mean an increase in benefits and puts us on the same table and in the same book that the M\u0101ori Party is in, and I am quite proud of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4c59f4c03a24f12bb7c11bb01a3c866\u0022\u003EBroadband Roll-out\u2014Progress on Urban Initiative\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d73a851d5c34324bab8ec3bd8132d60\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: What progress has the Government made on its urban broadband initiative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022606a7708a70e4fb4ae6705db47fd3457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022606a7708a70e4fb4ae6705db47fd3457\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to report that this morning I released the final investment model for the Government\u2019s $1.5 billion ultra-fast broadband initiative. This will deliver ultra-fast broadband to 75 percent of New Zealanders within 10 years. Delivering fibre to the home is an essential part of the infrastructure for a strongly growing 21st century economy. It will play a key role in improving the productivity of our country as we move out of recession and into a period of growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc9e21321f24a4c8a07418dd8ec4e82\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: How has the investment model changed from the one that was consulted on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907bb8db0cf940b88908aae2909110f3\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has confirmed that its investment will be directed to open access, passive fibre network infrastructure. This will be done in partnership with co-investors through local fibre companies, which will be responsible for the roll out of fibre in their area and will be permitted to participate in the wholesale market. Although consistent with the draft, changes have been made to provide greater flexibility for different-sized proposals, more regional coverage, and significantly more detail on commercial arrangements and technical issues. The next steps will be the establishment of Crown Fibre Holdings and the Ministry of Economic Development issuing invitations to participate to potential partners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e35956b0b942f1bcc51039ca2ae955\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied, in light of the Telecom contractor dispute, that Telecom can fulfil all of its current obligations and also provide for a significant proportion of the additional broadband that New Zealand so urgently requires?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f4c6ff23f849a6b512bf40e286a110\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, it is inappropriate for me to comment on specific private arrangements between employees and their companies. I can assure the member that the demand for skilled telecommunications workers is only going to grow over the next 5 to 10 years as a result of the Government\u2019s investments in both rural and urban broadband infrastructure, so I encourage all skilled technicians and say that there will be plenty of work for them in this environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237172875ba864b71bb1e7449c98f1869\u0022\u003EHealth Care\u2014Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f6671758ca4c898cd832bbc298ac06\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Labour\u2014Port Hills)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he still stand by his policy to deliver better, sooner, and more convenient health care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226bd5481f9a904e04b94792ebd95c0917\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bd5481f9a904e04b94792ebd95c0917\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Despite the fact that the previous Labour Government left this Government with $160 million of unfunded services to fill and also quietly stripped $150 million out of the health budget before the last election, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2085d1cffa644469e555e3997649fd9\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: What is better, sooner, and more convenient for 72-year-old Gisborne man Mr Bruce Gardiner, who faces 9 months in Waikato Hospital away from his wife and his home because of a shortage of funding for dialysis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d6878cd57794284b9eb0b983283670b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: If the member has a specific case that she wants me to comment on, she needs to give me some notice of that. I can tell the member that in Gisborne, the Tair\u0101whiti District Health Board has received additional funding from the Government of $8.1 million. I am advised that that is the biggest single increase in funding it has had for a decade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ca51a91dfd4bc18f3c17154027c3bf\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Given the increase in people like Mr Gardiner needing dialysis because of diabetes, why has the Minister agreed to funding cuts of $4.8 million to the \u201CGet Checked\u201D Diabetes Aotearoa programme, which has been hugely successful in South Auckland and other places in detecting diabetes early?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b09f706ed2e4d41bebc8034b9b729a3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s figures often need to be checked and confirmed, but I can say that if the member is referring to the line-by-line saving in respect of the diabetes \u201CGet Checked\u201D Diabetes Aotearoa programme, that saving was not related to any reduction in services for patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c37fa4cde0c341a8b72aecf21f8df217\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has the Minister seen related to delivering a better, more convenient health service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244cdfe1c7c574794a9ff22227f159211\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government wants better, sooner, more convenient health services in rural areas, so it is making grants to six innovative projects in the rural care sector. They include a teleradiology project for Fiordland medical practices, \u014Ctaki primary health organisations\u2019 general practitioner - led clinics targeting k\u014Dhanga and kindergartens, Tararua primary health organisations\u2019 mobile service delivery project, Waikato rural pharmacies\u2019 medication project for patients with mild to moderate depression, and Western Bay of Plenty primary health organisations\u2019 flying doctor service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225afeea8177344540b6a1631ffc40ae18\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with Dr Jeremy Krebs, the clinical leader of endocrinology and diabetes at Wellington Hospital, who said that the National Government\u2019s decision to allow junk food in tuck shops was \u201Ca backward step in dealing with the growing obesity problem in New Zealand, and a step that will mean more people with diabetes in our country.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9ccf52757444fc83e2d1e065358d3a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I will make two points to Dr Krebs. First, I want him to know that the previous Labour Government cut funding related to the \u201CGet Checked\u201D Diabetes Aotearoa programme in the months before the previous election. Second, I am sure he would like to know that this National Government believes that it should be left to boards of trustees and parents to decide what is sold in school tuck shops. We simply do not want the Education Review Office running round schools looking for a stray custard square.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7ed8835c434cee8e3d6f3ff879daab\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an article in this week\u2019s Gisborne Herald outlining the situation that Mr Bruce Gardiner finds himself in, for the edification of Anne\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283f0f7733d1a4d3697b5134e90a81b32\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table an article from the Gisborne Herald. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ca0605ddc5e4e9386f5396451b2abff\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Ultra-fast Broadband\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279060ccc67eb48d19ac5102eb448f841\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has the Government made to prepare schools for ultra-fast broadband?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002253ea12298f824059ba14a2a7a8567864\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253ea12298f824059ba14a2a7a8567864\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday the Minister for Communications and Information Technology and I announced the names of 14 schools that will receive funding to enable internal network upgrades. The upgrades will allow teachers and students at those schools to make greater use of digital learning technologies and will improve their access to online learning tools. The principal of Maniototo Area School in the member\u2019s electorate has applauded the move by the Government, stating that it is exciting to be one of the 14 schools in this new upgrade round and he hopes it will allow broadband to be expanded to the Ranfurly area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdc40f9d27d749a5b8412728b3f766d6\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: How were the 14 schools in this round of school network upgrades chosen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234cd8fd90ec5480fae0e4b1082182383\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: A number of criteria were used to ensure that we had a mix of rural and urban, and primary and secondary, schools in this round. We have committed to upgrades in urban areas, such as Taradale High School in the member\u2019s electorate, but we have also recognised the importance of upgrading rural schools. That has been appreciated by a rural principal who said: \u201CWe congratulate the Government on their willingness to ensure that students at remote schools and communities such as ours are not disadvantaged from participating fully in elearning opportunities \u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa8e8a1a4ea44f829d448674ea44a55d\u0022\u003EAdult and Community Education\u2014Administration of Redundancies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245cf209ecf0e4379a476e595cb05ac63\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: What advice, if any, has she received about whose responsibility it is to pay redundancy to night class staff in the event of night class programmes being wound down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d132d49d1edc45f8b026dd3d969451ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d132d49d1edc45f8b026dd3d969451ca\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the responsibility to pay redundancy to night class staff with employment agreements lies with the employers. The decision on whether to employ staff or contract for services is one for schools to make. I am further advised that schools are encouraged to meet their investment plan obligations to deliver adult and community education, but that some schools may meet the cost of redundancy from the funding they have received for adult and community education delivery. If schools intend to do that then they are encouraged to discuss the matter with the Tertiary Education Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ab8e8795984f4c95790d37f039683c\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received for schools that might be found to be in breach of contractual terms through using money appropriated for one purpose, namely the provision of adult and community education courses, for another purpose entirely, namely payment of redundancy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228124894c8a6942ffa363ffa80f597417\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I encourage those schools to liaise with the Tertiary Education Commission and to seek legal support and advice from the New Zealand School Trustees Association. Schools have been advised that they should seek support from the New Zealand School Trustees Association about these employment matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915d5ff8ce35419ebe8ffc669134837d\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What authority does the Tertiary Education Commission have to tell schools they can use adult and community education funding, specifically allocated for the delivery of adult and community education programmes, for winding down those programmes before the end of 2009, given that the Tertiary Education Commission is not a contractual partner in the terms and conditions of the people made redundant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b07a3ecbe0584fc9a1d0c07f8328a2c1\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Schools are encouraged to meet their investment plan commitment to deliver adult and community education. If they are considering decreasing provision in order to meet redundancies, they should be in contact with the Tertiary Education Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022030eca6cb24f435f9c38288baa5b3695\u0022\u003EHon Maryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the fund schedule between the Tertiary Education Commission and recipient high schools for adult and community education, which stipulates the purpose and objectives of that fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077a0d3cb3e54c6da1a0b04839a638c5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273a76380968c4984a99d585967a24f23\u0022\u003ESocial Services\u2014Contracting Arrangements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022843e2f7417cb4b1c86c52e38ce6fe1fa\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Has she made any announcements about contracting with the social sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002299f34d57d93847578e3097d50a1c9b6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299f34d57d93847578e3097d50a1c9b6a\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Yesterday I announced that we are putting in place a new and simpler way of funding and contracting. We are beginning with a trial of the new high-trust model that will combine the multiple contracts we have with individual social providers into a single, simple contract. The model will also simplify social providers\u2019 reporting requirements, so it is more effective and results-based.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0318ebeca7d487c90f6d05442846653\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government trialling the high-trust contract model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a811bf448bc742e583666fa33e708bef\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This is all about using our existing resources more efficiently. We believe this will deliver more services for the same money, because these organisations have to comply with an absurd amount of red tape to deliver services. Some providers might have 10 or more contracts, and each has its own administrative and audit requirements. This is unique. We are talking about a 3-page contract that is not about filling out forms for these services; this is a small but significant step towards greater flexibility at the same time as delivering value for money for the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d14b60e57547e3aa716f1921b966d9\u0022\u003EJacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister\u2019s simple and open contracting arrangements announced yesterday save trusted and vital services, like Youthline\u2019s volunteer training programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd985dc352f247268e558fccbac2c236\u0022\u003EHon PAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Value for money is going on all the time. We are constantly looking at contracts that are coming up, and this model will mean more flexibility and taking a positive step for those non-governmental organisations that contract with the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022996930931e0d4e13bf90bab5b4163555\u0022\u003EState Housing\u2014Reduction through Sales\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221919c8ea44094802841468604d21b93c\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Will he guarantee that no region will see a reduction in its State housing stock as a result of his decision to put 40,000 State houses up for sale?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00223a4601ff14f54fdea7400bf5a0e0ad01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a4601ff14f54fdea7400bf5a0e0ad01\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Housing: The Minister can guarantee that every house sold to a tenant under this scheme will be replaced with a new house. We will probably build the replacement houses in areas of high need. Uptake is likely to be in the hundreds, rather than the thousands. This is a good example of National fulfilling one of its election promises that proved to be pretty popular with the public at the last election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083a001ec8fa4b62be1f1da068acf5e4\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: So that the rest of country can know they are not eligible for the replacement of any State houses sold in their areas, where are these high-need areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd06822b2b64103a31e68d33fd9794f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that as the policy takes effect and we are able to balance the sale of some of these houses to the tenants who live in them, those questions will become fully and abundantly clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f824edd058424e5abc93064c79c622e9\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: If, as the Minister has admitted, some regions will see a reduction in their State housing stock because the rebuilds will be in high-need areas like South Auckland, as the Minister has already indicated, why are 8,218 State houses\u201475 percent of the Housing New Zealand Corporation\u2019s South Auckland stock\u2014up for sale in South Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e9e721336246e685307590f990b544\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I am not sure what the member has against people being able to purchase State houses, or, for that matter, people in South Auckland being able to purchase State houses. Secondly, I have admitted simply that State houses will be replaced in areas of high need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e84462bad147fc9b7138bf16f7e85d\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou. Has the Minister received any responses from iwi M\u0101ori to the possibilities that have opened up from the homeownership of State houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc304bcea2d4874935adf80d470efb2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has been advised that this policy has been welcomed by M\u0101ori, as 35 percent of State house tenants identify as M\u0101ori. This policy will provide them with a further opportunity to move into homeownership, and we look forward to continuing to work with our support partners on this very important initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee6ffb739f1843359a832a5fb54dec3e\u0022\u003EWarm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart\u2014Number of Retrofitted Homes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223631530480444793ab19a837c4370166\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: How many houses were retrofitted in August though the Government\u2019s Warm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart home insulation programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224007e4b97dc145b39f1fe5f030631ce7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224007e4b97dc145b39f1fe5f030631ce7\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E What a very well-asked question! I am very pleased to advise the House that a total of 4,889 houses were retrofitted in August as part of the programme. This is a considerable step up on the 3,282 retrofits that were completed in July. In just over 8 weeks, 8,000 Kiwi homes have received assistance, meaning that they are warmer, healthier, dryer, and better as a result of this Government\u2019s scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a485b686a4d47bcbdaf7241ba38764a\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: How many houses lived in by residents with community services cards have been retrofitted under the Warm Up New Zealand scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223765b2bb41784b3fa75127b3eb90dab8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am very pleased to report to the House that of the 4,489 houses retrofitted in August, 2,775 were occupied by people on low incomes. That is close to 60 percent of all the houses retrofitted in that month, which means that those residents are likely to have paid little or nothing for the insulation. [Interruption] I am not surprised that the Labour Party wants to drown out such wonderful results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea47d7eefed145fda8c881088e52b630\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00223193e8fb34ed474e8f38b30cae1b86f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223193e8fb34ed474e8f38b30cae1b86f3\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a document in relation to question No.10. It is a regional breakdown of the number of State houses up for sale in each area, broken down by Housing New Zealand Corporation administrative regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef4106490ba4efda0f6b8230eeab950\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The source of the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c031955a806b43c9902adebb9a8a5a41\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is an email from the Minister\u2019s office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c13aed72a74190b0a017631ecb6f7d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b82a863c6ac4d558b9bdeef7baf845f\u0022\u003EMinisterial Accommodation\u2014Homes Leased from Family Trusts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eac4cc1b4cc4b269d8f6ad685914685\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services: What conditions must be met before it is permissible to lease a home from a family trust for use as a ministerial residence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a1d6ed3d824defa57208acfbbd5379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a1d6ed3d824defa57208acfbbd5379\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY (Minister responsible for Ministerial Services):\u003C/span\u003E I refer to the member to the answer given on my behalf last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f2c544b9124b159aae142ab48bb31c\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: If the Hon Bill English has no pecuniary interest in his ministerial residence, then how come the email I have here, dated 19 March, shows Mr English telling Ministerial Services which bank account to put the money into?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138a2374142f464e8fe80d3a55837ab2\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is a legal test as to whether someone has a pecuniary interest, and Mr English has no pecuniary interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c0a64ea4d944c3a5201a598046c12a\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the email referred to in my previous supplementary question, containing the half-line that says: \u201Cthe Minister has asked me to advise you of the correct account for the rent.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b0923d795744385970f7dfeed3ce232\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd4131a5891425f83ec70a46c34b91a\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister been advised that a request for an additional $20 per week of cleaning allowance was made by or on behalf of Mr English on 5 December\u2014the day Treasury told Mr English that Government expenditure had to be seriously cut\u2014and that by 10 February Mr English had managed to claim cleaning costs even in excess of the new, higher allowance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcca3c37cb2840c2bdaa5e41ca51db50\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: As is so often the case with Mr Hodgson, he is a week behind the story\u2014it was in the paper last week. No, I was not advised of that because it is an operational matter that Ministerial Services would conduct on my behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2a333ef1264383b30d24d757ef1f66\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister sought or received advice as to why the Hon Bill English claims publicly to have removed himself from the family trust while still in Opposition, but his house title was not changed until he had been the Minister of Finance for almost 4 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb301be2e4440b9a5def56a33fea6cb\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is really getting bad\u2014that was in the paper 2 months ago. But anyway, I guess if you are desperate you ask those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221deb9d8b7aad4c1fa0d3d1a6972facab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a288f09697545deaa0317e250b0a272\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not sought advice in that area. The test is quite simple: it is whether the member has a pecuniary interest. He does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9ee66f50a740d194087dfbb7981655\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think Mr English backdated changes to his trust deed so he could claim publicly that somehow he did not do it all for the money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245de190cd01a47ddad9df1ba1786a29b\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046ba302dcdf4e989b8a4660082d2a4f\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he now think it is wise that the English family trust deed be made public in the interests of transparency, or indeed the minutes of the trust meetings, or must the public continue to take the Hon Bill English at his word?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022302a96dbf6c743e7af6f9a7578b00334\u0022\u003EHon JOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think that is a good idea, and I certainly do take the member at his word. I caution the member that if he wants to have an open disclosure of every trust document and every superannuation document of every single member of Parliament, it would be a very interesting road to go down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288163ce7577a464493de1eeb1acb7c29\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbd4de3a7a2f4e4ba9a54dc7fb027baf\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000566\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228114f1e65c7d4968bfb280f3bdcde8ff\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00226d4b3de928b945ad8ef3e6410221bdc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d4b3de928b945ad8ef3e6410221bdc3\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Before we broke for lunch I was talking about the need for Auckland MPs to be engaged in this debate. There has been a sad lack of engagement by Auckland MPs. In particular, I really hope that Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, the MP for Maungakiekie, will show some interest in this matter by taking a call. Local government is hugely important to the people of that electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EEarlier on I was talking about the Asian Advisory Board and speaking in favour of that amendment, which has been put up by my colleague Raymond Huo. The electorate of Maungakiekie is an interesting example of just how diverse the Auckland region is. Let me tell members about it. The population described as Asian\u2014a very large category, of course\u2014numbers 22.3 percent. It is a very significant group. It is made up primarily of Indian and Chinese people. Pacific peoples make up 19 percent of the electorate. I am making the point that diversity is very, very marked in Auckland, and perhaps some members are not familiar with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4758e7a9f474d7581b705b4136ccb0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4758e7a9f474d7581b705b4136ccb0c\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up on the comments made by some of the previous speakers this morning. Ms Ardern made a number of comments about youth representation. It is true that there were some pretty impassioned speakers on the subject of youth representation at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. We held a number of public meetings on the issue and we received some great contributions from across Auckland on the issue. But as I said to Ms Ardern the other day, a number of issues will be dealt with in the third Auckland bill. The issues around youth representation, Pacific representation, and support for groups with disabilities have been flagged as issues that will be addressed in the next bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI say to those listening that all the Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward by Labour members are just an opportunity for Labour members to talk about issues other than the issues they do not want to talk about\u2014which are the issues within this legislation. The reason they do not want to talk about the issues within this legislation is that, as many members have already noted, the Labour Party supports a unitary authority for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ELabour has moved to a position where it actually supports 20 local boards. So we are in a position that is unique: we are, inarguably, on the cusp of one of the most important changes in local government in terms of Auckland\u2019s governance, but we are in an odd situation whereby the Opposition is spending a whole lot of time talking about everything but the legislation, because it actually supports the legislation. Labour supports one council, and it supports 20 local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI must say it took Labour quite a while to come to the position of supporting 20 local boards. The reason it came to that position is that when we were going through the select committee process Mr Twyford recognised that he was in big trouble with the Labour Party caucus. He was in trouble because he had argued for only six local entities, and some members of his party were frustrated. Su\u2019a William Sio and many other Labour members did not want to campaign in 2011 as the party that argued for no local representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI am proud to be supporting a bill that will finally deliver a strong regional entity for Auckland. It will finally deliver grassroots democracy for Auckland. I want to touch on another issue that has been raised during the debate today, particularly by the Green Party, and I acknowledge Catherine Delahunty and the contribution she made when she sat on the select committee. A lot of myths have been spoken about the powers of local boards. I want to make this very clear: the people who came to the select committee said they wanted funding. They also said they wanted decent functions and powers. The Government delivered on those things for the people of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EMembers opposite said that the Auckland Council will have the ability to override a lot of what the local boards do. That is absolutely false. Provisions in the bill, in clause 13D in particular, make it very clear that, with some exceptions, decisions will be made at the lowest possible level in terms of non-regulatory activity. So any member who stands in the Chamber and says anything different is speaking a load of hogwash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EToday we are delivering to the people of Auckland a strong, regional entity with strong local boards. I feel for those community board members who came to the select committee and said they had been constantly overridden. We are finally delivering to them the local democracy they need. I am proud to be supporting this legislation. It will finally give them a strong local entity so that they will be able to deliver for their communities. Any assertion to the contrary is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make is that the third Auckland bill will contain an independent dispute resolution mechanism, so if there is a situation where the Auckland Council tries it on and tries to grab more power, the resolution mechanism will enable the local board members to be able to go through that process and ensure they do get responsibility over local matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI am very proud to be in the Chamber to support this bill. I am proud to support one strong regional entity for Auckland, and 20 to 30 local boards. That is also what the Labour Party supports. It is disappointing that members opposite stand and talk about everything but the core parts of the legislation, at this historic time in Auckland\u2019s history\u2014indeed, in New Zealand\u2019s history. I am proud to stand in support of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022909ebcdf159a4e95b4e47e1602b5e815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022909ebcdf159a4e95b4e47e1602b5e815\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I comment firstly on the words of the previous speaker, Nikki Kaye. The principles that she espouses are so dear to her heart; I have no doubt about that. I sat in on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee a number of times, and I acknowledge that Nikki Kaye participated very fully. She asked a lot of questions, but the reality is that what she wanted to achieve, and what she believed that she had achieved, simply did not happen. The process was made a mockery of, and so was Nikki Kaye\u2019s contribution to the process and that of the other National members on the select committee. I congratulate certainly my colleagues on this side of the Chamber, but also the Green Party on the quality of its contribution to the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I acknowledge Catherine Delahunty, who was at the select committee, and Sue Bradford, because they both listened really hard and agreed with us about the basic principles of democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWe talk about grassroots, but the proposal that National is saying is so absolutely fantastic\u2014to break up 30 local boards\u2014will turn into the competitive tendering model that is exactly the way the National Party is renowned for acting. I will name a few local projects within Waitakere. My colleague Darien Fenton has talked to me about the North Shore and the projects there. I want to talk about Project Twin Streams, which is absolutely renowned and came second in an international prize; the parenting day that is run in Waitakere; Trees for Babies; Violence Free Waitakere; EcoMatters Environment Trust; WeedFree Trust; and all the projects that support our children. I ask Nikki Kaye to take another call. I really congratulate her on getting on her feet, because that is a bit of a first for National members. I would like her to take a call and explain very clearly how\u2014with this many boards and the competitive approach\u2014we will see funding for really worthwhile projects like those I mentioned, which encapsulate a whole city, if not several different areas. The Government simply says that these local boards will be able to deliver those projects with a minimal budget and with no support at all, but we know what will happen and what they will actually be given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EWe note that the Government has absolutely ignored the recommendation from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance about a Social Issues Board. We on this side of the Chamber would be very keen for Nikki Kaye to take another call and explain how youth will be represented on the Auckland Council. The member who is gesturing at me, Paul Quinn, may also like to take a call on the issue of M\u0101ori seats. Never mind the rhetoric about what happened, how the Government listened, and how the community groups were great; I think Government members should front up and explain really clearly how this bill will deliver for community and minority groups in the greater region of our city. It simply will not, and the National Government knows that. It has no interest in seeing delivery for those groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThe people who are giving the Government advice and who are saying how wonderful this bill is are the business people of Auckland. Theirs are the only positive comments I have seen about this bill from any group throughout the region. I would like National members to justify their actions, which we on this side of the Chamber\u2014and, I know, the Green Party\u2014see as absolutely immoral. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI acknowledge again all those submitters, because the common sense that came from those submissions at the select committee, and the unity of purpose, was absolutely second to none. But it all fell on the deaf ears of National Party members. They simply did not listen, including on the issue of their multi-member wards, which we know are just a sham because of the size of those wards. My colleague Phil Twyford talked about that issue. It is a ratio of one councillor to almost 50,000 people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa9f5c841d1546abb65ea82dcc25bedf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa9f5c841d1546abb65ea82dcc25bedf\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to get back to another topic. Mr Key called for an uprising in Rodney. He did not mean Rodney Hide, although he got that as well, but boy did he get one in Rodney District! That was because of the Cabinet decision that was suddenly announced out of the blue to exclude north Rodney from the super-city. It caught locals and the Auckland Regional Council by complete surprise. They were shocked and horrified. Let us remember that the Government wanted to split the Rodney district at the P\u016Bhoi River and Makarau River, severing the northern townships and settlements, as well as isolating six regional parks that all Aucklanders treasure: Mahurangi, Scandrett, T\u0101wharanui, Pakiri, Te \u0100rai, and \u0100tiu Creek. So the people of Rodney organised. They organised a meeting, which was held last week and was packed with angry residents. Speaker after speaker expressed their views about the very dumb idea of merging Rodney north of Wairoa with the Kaipara District Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe Auckland Regional Council voted unanimously last week to demand that the Government leave the Auckland boundaries alone. That decision was undemocratic, just like the rest of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I have to say that the Prime Minister has marginally redeemed himself on this one by making yet another U-turn. Possibly it is because part of Rodney is in his electorate. Perhaps that is the reason. The people were up in arms and on the march, and he would have paid for it in his electorate. Mind you, people do not forget that quickly or easily. This Government will pay the price for mucking Rodney around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am really pleased that the Government reversed its decision, because it was a decision that we would have all paid for. Services and the quality of life in the northern townships and settlements in rural areas would have declined. Rates would have gone up, some of the coast\u2019s exceptional natural beauty would have been lost, and the regional parks would have been put at risk. Greedy developers would have moved in, and the Kaipara District Council would have had no chance of stopping them. I say again that the process was appalling. The northern boundary change was never put out for public consideration. Most\u2014well, all\u2014Rodney residents had no say on the issue, even though they made enormous efforts to be heard by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. They came along and put in a huge amount of effort to be heard, yet suddenly out of the blue came this decision. Why did they have to be put through all that trauma? Why did they have to go through that? I say good on Rodney for organising, and good on it for the uprising. I do not mean Rodney Hide. I say good on the people of Rodney, and all power to their arms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThen there is Hunua. Poor old Dr Paul Hutchinson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35d3e5f2fa046d4aea70ce11ed9a80e\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b537af078f4a44b19314c6c9fbd589\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Is it Hutchison or Hutchinson? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222921f4416c5f42579dd2e696888802a9\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf724fec0b449989a5922e6fdeeea20\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think we need to have your dissertation again. I inform Darien Fenton that the member to whom she was referring is called Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bdaa62f52734f9cb5be33fd92718702\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Hutchison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7415ad3f97f44219c02beb1dfbe640c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. There is no \u201CN\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe209d393e514856a67c7bfdca904910\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. I will make an additional point. If we are going to have a name-pronouncing competition, may I please be called \u201CDah-rien\u201D, not \u201CDarry-en\u201D. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EPoor old Dr Paul has not been listened to. The people of the south have not been listened to by this Government. The boundary in the south will remain unchanged. The current Franklin District will be split just south of Pukekohe, with the rest going into the Waikato. The boundary now cuts Waiuku in two, and the hairpin in the motor racing track on the southern edge of Pukekohe is in the Waikato. How mad is that for those poor people? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EBy the way, that is not what the royal commission said. It recommended that there should be no change to either the northern boundary or the southern boundary. The commission set the southern boundary at the Waikato River, with Environment Waikato and the Tainui people responsible for managing the river. But the Government has ignored the royal commission, it has ignored the people, and it has ignored the local member, Dr Hutchison. Now we have bewildered, confused, and angry people in the south. We have fixed one end of Auckland, for now, but people at the other end are just as up in arms as the people of Rodney were, because the towns of Waiuku and Pukekohe will be split right down the middle. That is completely crazy. I feel sorry for the local member because he has to wear this. He is making noises about the Local Government Commission\u2019s discussion on boundaries, but I do not think the people will be satisfied with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002247a7d176a44e41dfa46f8170e954c8f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247a7d176a44e41dfa46f8170e954c8f9\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E One important area that has not been given much attention so far in this debate is the matter of how the new super-city is going to deal with water. Given Auckland\u2019s high annual rainfall and the increasing incidence of weather bomb problems, the Green Party is concerned that the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill recommends that the management of Auckland\u2019s stormwater be separated from the management of Auckland\u2019s water and waste water. This decision adds weight to worries that Watercare Services is being shaped into a neat, vertically integrated business, funded by revenues from water and waste-water charges, and ready for a possible sell-off. That is the deepest fear we have. That business model would be upset by Auckland\u2019s stormwater challenges, but then public services do not always lend themselves to market solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAt the moment I understand that North Shore, Manukau, and Waitakere deliver the three local water services in an integrated way. North Shore City Council, for example, recognises how intertwined the three water services are, whether or not people like it, and understands that they need to be managed together, for a whole host of reasons. Super-city proposals to break up the water service divisions of North Shore, Manukau, and Waitakere will not serve anyone\u2019s interests well. In the old days, stormwater was managed by council roading departments, but even that will not be possible under the new governance proposals, because roads are to be managed by a separate transport infrastructure agency, which will have little interest, I imagine, in stormwater. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAuckland\u2019s stormwater cannot be allowed to flow through the widening cracks in these reforms. Integrated management of our stormwater assets, ponds, and flow paths is essential. It is also imperative that all water management and control remain within public ownership, with clear accountability mechanisms, transparent pricing, and a strong focus on meeting both ecological and human imperatives. This is a debate that will continue when the third governance bill comes before Parliament later this year, but I think it is important that we signal our concerns now about the negative outcomes of clauses 23 and 24, which are already embedded in the legislation we are dealing with today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EA second and related issue is around who will really plan the super-city, and how. The Government has talked a lot about how the new arrangements will aid effective planning for the region. Indeed, one of the reasons the Green Party supported the super-city proposal to some extent was that we could see that the region would benefit from far more coherent region-wide planning in areas of critical infrastructure such as water and transport. We want to see sustainability at the heart of the new Auckland configuration, and a city where there is a strong, healthy, safe, and fair society living within its environmental limits. The Greens also believe that Auckland should have the right to determine its own destiny without being effectively controlled from Wellington or elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe are concerned by recent events that indicate a major shift in the locus of decision making. For example, the Minister of Transport, the Hon Steven Joyce, is leading the charge by seeking to build a four-lane highway from P\u016Bhoi to Wellsford. Despite having had a close association with the Rodney and North Shore Districts over many years, I have never sensed a huge upswelling of local support for such an option, not in the way there was, for example, for the Albany to P\u016Bhoi realignment or for the Northern Busway. The P\u016Bhoi to Wellsford motorway has never figured in any 10-year plan before now, and it is not part of the Auckland regional transport strategy. From what I can gather, the Minister is simply not listening to Government transport officials, who are really uncomfortable about promoting a four-lane motorway when its benefit-cost assessments simply do not stack up against other transport projects. That is putting aside all the arguments about the use of motorways at all, when investing in public transport would be a far more appropriate option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI further understand that, in the process of establishing the new Auckland transport agency to replace the Auckland Regional Transport Authority, the Minister has indicated that he wants Auckland transport to basically be centrally controlled from Wellington, probably by the New Zealand Transport Agency. Auckland\u2019s right to determine its own future is also being challenged on another front by the existence of the Auckland Transition Agency, whose job it is to construct the detail of the new city. As part of its work it has already completely cut across the Auckland Regional Council\u2019s regional policy statement processes, while the Government itself continues to undermine the Auckland Regional Council\u2019s growth strategy on issues as diverse as motorways, as opposed to public transport; sprawl and coastal development, as opposed to containment; and, of course, through the recent Resource Management Act changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022834612932c3f42a1b8dc05597176c319\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022834612932c3f42a1b8dc05597176c319\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Mr Chair, for the opportunity to take another call on the Supplementary Order Paper I put forward. It seeks to establish an Asian Advisory Board. Professor Manying Ip, in her endorsement of such a proposal, gave the simple reason that the sheer demographics would mean that Asians could not be ignored in any plans for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EApart from those permanent residents, we cannot ignore other demographic factors. For example, the number of international students arriving in New Zealand rose dramatically from the mid-1990s, peaked at more than 120,000 in 2002, and then stabilised at about 95,000 in 2005. Asian students comprise about 87 percent of all international students, with about two-thirds coming from China. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EPermanent Asian residents in Auckland, on the other hand, make up 13 percent of the population. As is noted in the royal commission\u2019s report: \u201CStakeholders from ethnic communities are concerned about how engaged local authorities are in the issues of concern to them, and how their communities are assisted to participate in council processes.\u201D The royal commission\u2019s report notes that ethnic minorities are under-represented on Auckland\u2019s councils. After the 2007 elections, 84 percent of the members of Auckland\u2019s councils identified as European, 9 percent as M\u0101ori, 4 percent as Pacific, and 4 percent as Asian. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EAs a list member of Parliament, based in Auckland, I had the opportunity to attend the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee public hearings in Auckland. The submission by the Families Commission confirmed that the Auckland region is the most socially and ethnically diverse in New Zealand. Effective representation of those socially and ethnically diverse groups has an important role to play in local government, because it will enable them to contribute effectively to their own good and, therefore, to the greater common good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ELocal bodies have historically failed to provide meaningful representation and to achieve the participation of ethnic minorities. This is a good opportunity for the Government to remedy the situation. The establishment of advisory panels for Asian communities, along with the Pacific communities, is sensible and meaningful, and it will be effective. This area is not addressed in the Government\u2019s current legislation. Labour supports the establishment of Pacific and Asian advisory bodies. We believe they should be given a statutory purpose, with direct links into the Auckland Council to ensure that they are recognised and are required to meet with the entire council on a regular basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EMany speakers have emphasised how important Auckland is to New Zealand. Our country is small, so we must be smarter and more diligent. It is particularly important nowadays, when we are living in a world where commercial trade and financial flows are globalised. We cannot afford to become isolated, and that is evidenced by the trend towards small bilateral and regional free-trade agreements. Countries in other regions are becoming increasingly connected by a complex web of trading arrangements. By engaging Asians\u2014our Kiwi Asians\u2014we will help to strengthen the web of trading arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI am grateful to the Prime Minister, the Hon John Key, who acknowledged, when addressing Peking University in China in April this year, the importance of the free-trade agreement with China, which was signed by the then trade Minister, and current Labour leader, the Hon Phil Goff. Let me quote the Hon John Key: \u201CWhen we signed the Free Trade Agreement last year we opened an important door, and now our task is to boldly walk through it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ESimilarly, in respect of the super-city bill\u2014and taking into consideration the Supplementary Order Paper that would set up an Asian Advisory Board\u2014we have opened an important door. It is up to the Government to walk through it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022609be0595e95446991daaac4c7e0f738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022609be0595e95446991daaac4c7e0f738\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I congratulate Nikki Kaye. She is the only National member who has spoken since 10.30 this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228317ac2aabe642a8966917393cd2ee23\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c72da051f53470fafa887e990e98ea3\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. She is the only National member who has spoken since 10.30 this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be8e841620d241edab044fdac4ca4a1f\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We canvassed this point earlier today. The Opposition members continue to refer to the absence of members from the Chamber. I think it is totally uncalled for and unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89c0897b7444707bdd5d0685e4f4128\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the member used his words very carefully. He never referred to the absence of anybody. There is quite a suite of Speakers\u2019 rulings about how members can refer to a member\u2019s participation in the debate without actually talking about the member\u2019s absence. Members have been pretty good about that. The member is skirting with it, but he did not break the rules, so I will not uphold the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218426edc0c004a49b317666be3996aac\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the senior Government whip is a little sensitive and perhaps a little embarrassed that Government members will not get up and defend a Government bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. National members will not get up and defend their bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis point is quite interesting. When there is a bit of a fight across the Chamber things get a bit lively from time to time. Minister Paula Bennett likes a scrap. She jumps on to teenagers in Henderson and pulls them apart. But when we get to the stage of having a debate in the Chamber, she says nothing\u2014not a thing, at all. All of a sudden, having a battle with the Opposition does not seem too appealing, and that is a very big pity. I would like to hear what Paula Bennett has to say. She is holding her seat in Parliament by 635 votes. That is all. The people out in the west of Auckland want to hear what she has to say about the super-city, the new plan, and the new bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EOther members are sitting here with the mute button turned on. My very good friend Cam Calder, who stood against me in Manurewa, worked every day from March until election day, knocking on doors and saying how he would represent the people of Manurewa. He has his opportunity now. He has his opportunity during the 16 hours of this debate. But what is he doing? He is sitting there, smiling, and dreaming about playing p\u00E9tanque or some other game, and how he will be able to go to the community board to ask for some money so people can play that game. I must say that he is the best candidate who has ever stood against me. He actually did some work, and I think that is great. Now he can take it one step further: he can get up and have a say. It is all well and good that he is in Parliament, and I think he is doing better than Richard Worth, but I think he should also start to speak sometimes. He should have something to say on the super-city. That is what we want to hear. What are the member\u2019s views on the super-city? I think that is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey is another guy who I have a lot of time for. I have a lot of time for him. He should have been the Minister of Education. Everyone knows that. I think he was the principal of Rangitoto College. He is an excellent person, and he should have been the Minister of Education. He should get up in the Chamber and start speaking. His colleagues will see that he is better than Anne Tolley if he gets up and starts talking about the super-city, because the super-city is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe other person who I think should get up and start speaking is Melissa Lee. She was one of the first into the debate, really, because she stood as the National Party candidate in Mt Albert. That was one of the big topics\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de07001e58f84dda8d141f13e4d3b4e4\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How did that go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724f94ca28c041feae94ce58aac11eeb\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was a close thing. We won by only about 10,000 or 12,000 votes. The reality is that people cannot defend a Government by silence. The members who are sitting here now with their mouths closed just cannot do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting. It is a wee bit like an army. John Key is the general, his colonel is at Cabinet, and probably one or two colonels are working there at the moment. He sends out his sergeant-major. His sergeant-major is Rodney Hide, and he makes a lot of noise on the parade ground. He is thumping it out, telling the people of Auckland what a wonderful thing they are getting, and he has his sergeant, John Carter, running around behind him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EAt least we know what they think. At least we know what Rodney Hide thinks about this issue. But we do not know what the honourable member Mr Bakshi thinks about it. He sits there silently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b424f46fd6994949a9b609b42b64adf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b424f46fd6994949a9b609b42b64adf3\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I first of all acknowledge the work of Dr Paul Hutchison in helping us with the issue of the southern boundary, and in working through it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI am puzzled by the Labour Party. On the one hand it does not support the super-city, but I wonder whether Mr Phil Twyford\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e321e9548f5499da353fc340f202836\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216068ac9adb54ab08e9b854632382680\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Phil Twyford will vote for this amendment to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. This amendment is in the name of the Hon George Hawkins, and it intends to adjust the southern boundary. I want to share this amendment with members. This is what the Labour Party wants for Auckland and for New Zealand. The amendment refers to Part 3, clause 18. It states: \u201CDelete (2)(a) and insert the following\u2014\u201D. Members should stay with me because I want Mr Phil Twyford to be very careful about whether he and the Labour Party will be voting for the Hon George Hawkins\u2019 amendment. It inserts the following: \u201C(a) ensure that the southern boundary of Auckland be established \u2026\u201D; I tell Dr Hutchison to wait for it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa9e57461d84821840bbeea178ec6c4\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I think you will find that the honourable member is referring to an amendment that has been withdrawn some time ago. I would like him to correct his statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b782680e86194cdf97bbf477ef58e751\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that is a point of order, but perhaps it is helpful for the members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c5881af17cc4342bdd8ad4e3f937d79\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I can see why they wanted to withdraw it; I asked the Hon George Hawkins whether he was sure that he wanted to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ELet me explain what the Labour Party\u2019s plan was. It was to \u201Censure that the southern boundary of Auckland be established south of the current southern Franklin district \u2026 boundary and follows, as closely as practicable, the boundary of the Waikato River catchment \u2026\u201D. Officials have told me that that would include all of Taup\u014D. The Labour Party were moving an amendment to include Taup\u014D in the super-city, and it would have included Tongariro National Park, all of Hamilton, and Tokoroa. I am sorry that Simon Bridges is not here, because it included Tauranga as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EGeorge Hawkins and the Labour Party\u2014until I rescued them from the embarrassment\u2014were moving that amendment. I ask Mr Twyford what made him change his mind. What saw the Labour Party decide that Hamilton, Taup\u014D, Tokoroa, and Tauranga should not be part of this governance super-city in Auckland? Given that the Labour Party has been so vehement in its criticism of the Auckland super-city and what the Government is doing, why on earth would it want to include Taup\u014D, Hamilton, Tongariro National Park, Tokoroa, Cambridge, and Tauranga in the Auckland Council? I have to say that it sums up the contribution we are having from the Labour Opposition. I just wish we had a better Opposition, because it would make us an even better Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00224f32d1796ae04fc8b0950e17290583b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f32d1796ae04fc8b0950e17290583b0\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E That was a most relevant contribution from the Hon Rodney Hide. I was astounded to hear Phil Twyford\u2019s confusion, let alone how it typifies the confusion of the whole Labour Party. It is absolutely mind-boggling that Mr Twyford\u2019s amendment suggested that the boundary should be south of Franklin\u2019s existing boundary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfaf3058060642cba41228b024927112\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I wish to correct the member\u2019s statement. The withdrawn amendment was in the name of the Hon George Hawkins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c892ff19e774290b658955f519abe15\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: That, Mr Chairman, is just as bad, if not worse. Mr Twyford\u2019s comment shows that the spreading infectious confusion is not coming just from him or from George Hawkins. It is undoubtedly cemented in the whole Labour Party. They would never have heard of places like Waik\u0101retu, Aka Aka, \u014Ctaua or Onewhero, all of which are within the existing southern boundary of Franklin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI wonder whether it is true that the Labour Party is talking about the real source of the Waikato River, which, indeed, is in the national park. It comes down from Mount Ruapehu, flows into the Tongariro River, and then flows into Lake Taup\u014D. [Interruption] The Hon Rodney Hide is absolutely correct\u2014this is the grasping, nanny State - Labour Party wanting to take over the whole of New Zealand in its unitary authority. What is more, it will probably bring back Helen Clark to run it. We have not heard that theory yet, have we? But that is its plan\u2014to take her away from the United Nations. After all, Phil Twyford is from the United Nations. Labour will bring back Helen Clark to run the super-city and the super - land grab. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI wanted to make a contribution that related to the Manukau Harbour, something one would hope that the Labour members would know a little bit about. Very little has been said about the Manukau Harbour and the difficulty that some constituents of mine have had in trying to set up a ferry service. There are wonderful opportunities there. Constituents of mine have, for the last 6 years, put in great efforts to establish a tourist facility; a facility for children and students to explore the wonders of this great harbour. The unfortunate thing is that despite seeing every relevant mayor, and the Auckland Regional Council, only hurdles and obstructions have been put in the way of establishing appropriate wharves. Nothing has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI can tell members that today I received a letter from Mayor Bob Harvey in which he says: \u201CThanks for your letter, Paul, regarding the lack of ferry services or ferry facilities for the Manukau Harbour. I have been trying for decades, but I have given up. The Auckland Regional Council do not cover themselves in glory when it comes to enabling development of the coastline to happen. Of course, there are lots of other reasons. But I think this is a task for a new council, for a new way to Auckland to operate as a whole. You will, of course, be aware that the regional council has the most to say about the coastline and about transport within it. So perhaps there is little I can do for you.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that the bill before us is the very thing we need to get on with expeditiously so that this very important opportunity, which has not been discussed in the Chamber today, can go ahead and allow generations of New Zealanders to enjoy the wonders, the history, and the rich cultural and recreational opportunities of the Manukau Harbour. That will only happen through the mechanism of a bill such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002204db9c37b2aa4bc183145011d1bb487d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204db9c37b2aa4bc183145011d1bb487d\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that Labour MP Carol Beaumont has not spoken on her very interesting amendment, because we know that Labour wanted to extend the Auckland super-city to include Hamilton, Taup\u014D, and Tauranga. Carol Beaumont has put forward an amendment to clause 12. The amendment inserts new subclause (6), which states\u2014and I ask members to think about this; Labour members especially, because Mr Phil Twyford has said he will support this amendment\u2014\u201C12(6) This subsection applies if, at any elections held at the same time for a member or members of the governing body or local board and a member or members of Parliament, a person is declared to be elected as a member of the governing body or local board and that person is also declared to be elected as a member of Parliament.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThat would mean that a member would have to resign as he or she could not be a councillor, a local board member, or an MP all at once. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b97835ec849546df877f2619cde1d01d\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Wouldn\u2019t that be a good thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f07d4111b545fa9ab42e3710f01c13\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Prasad calls out that it is a good thing. I presume that Mr Prasad and Labour members will vote for this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee93efc762cb4e229f0585c2c1fa5e32\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: I will, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d21a0a213c954a31974e54414fd1cf2c\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: That is very interesting. The problem with the amendment, of course\u2014and I am sorry to break this to Mr Prasad and the Labour Party\u2014is that we do not have elections for Parliament and for councils on the same day, do we. It never happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aef75cc2ebe846f8b8a60ef38f16215b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: And your point is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3179888c9e45b4aef598c399e76cf4\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Ms Dalziel that if Labour members did their work, they would see the point when they read the amendment. The Hon Lianne Dalziel still has not got the point, so I will read it again: \u201CThis subsection applies if, at any elections held at the same time for a member or members of the governing body or local board and a member or members of Parliament \u2026\u201D, but they are definitely, by the constitution of New Zealand, never held at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI just wish that Labour members would do the work on this bill. I wish they would actually care about the Auckland super-council and would understand\u2014and I thought we would be hard-pressed to find a Kiwi who did not know\u2014that we do not vote for members of Parliament and members of councils on the same day. Did Mr Henare know that? Of course he did. Did Mr John Carter know that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286164f8668844782805703d9a52ff737\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba66a8d3db8d4b5f896cd39ed343d2f6\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Of course he did. Did Mr Hone Harawira know that? Of course he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be156cbe134d43b281826337595a026e\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: No he didn\u2019t!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a39024001fc45f3938574deeb35a21b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Hone Harawira did not know that! Well, funnily enough, that is not so surprising when I think about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut I would have thought the Hon Trevor Mallard would know. I would have thought that Darien Fenton would know that we do not vote for a member of Parliament and a member of a local council on the same day. Funnily enough, I do not know about Mr Phil Twyford. I thought: \u201CI wonder whether he knows.\u201D I thought, on balance, that he probably would not know. He is going to vote for it. Mr Prasad did not know about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b0cbecca404bde8f79332782e7b83d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Ever heard of a by-election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ef320066f7d49d9a34485a6ce225108\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! Trevor Mallard says that it is to apply only if there is a by-election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afec3db27e3f41a69e3e5467afd4356b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237dc97236924de18002d78ad1e1961d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member raising a debating point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223be701b3d39b4d1aa7f0e76d163f9d74\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not a debating point at all. The member has misquoted me, and I seek leave to make a personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c718c8b795aa40b4adf9a21b50f5c7ee\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave to make a personal explanation. Normally that would occur at the end of a call, but the member is seeking leave to make a personal explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faeb31437b204573abc9bdef987c7b57\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: On what subject?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b564218b03fc4aa897811e34f17301cb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: On the matter that the member has just referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de174c6fb0324c94a9164935c87cada4\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Relating to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a26fbe11f4c74a59859d6b7fd2f2e6fe\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: By-elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab0d56ab393d4cd8a280f85c39c07a60\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f0328838ae4133b8cac36014b420ba\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mallard says that this amendment is to apply only if there is a by-election. So now the Labour members are implying that if there is a by-election\u2014oh, I do not understand. And I do not think the Labour members know what they are up to. I want Mr Phil Twyford to stand in this Chamber, explain why he is voting for this amendment, and explain its legal effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a7322338264c6e9f331bcefed2667b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth Rodney. Stop being a liar!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c9673de67b4af8adb8191f40c11163\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf428f4b5c34f2490bde2b4641e2588\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I want Mr Mallard to take a call and explain why I am not telling the truth. I would be happy for him to. I look forward to it. I would like Mr Prasad to explain\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224592b9d3e8b14d6aa3ce6d4fb5adb845\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4653ce2e8d34d8984473176ea3c63db\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think I can capture the point. The member Trevor Mallard has crossed the boundary in relation to allegations of truthfulness, and I ask him to desist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2355fbdec0c4bcc9e5121d2d01a2efd\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It will be very interesting to hear the Labour members, and Ms Beaumont in particular, explain why Labour has an amendment that applies only when an MP is elected on the same day that he or she\u2014that same person\u2014is elected to be a councillor on the new Auckland Council. It beats this Government! Labour members do not need to make personal statements; they need to explain their Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1ec515d649945ee8d874b4cb53231a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1ec515d649945ee8d874b4cb53231a9\u0022\u003ECATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I must say that I enjoyed the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee a lot more than I am enjoying this debate. There was much less shouting and bad acting, and there was actually a lot more concentration on the issues at hand. I would like to return to one of the issues at hand, which is that I acknowledge the comments made by some of the earlier speakers about the people who are marginalised through the structural processes of this bill. It was good to hear from Nikki Kaye that youth and disability groups will receive some attention in the third bill, although I did not hear any acknowledgment of the call by Pasifika and Asian groups for advisory committees. I certainly did not hear any more acknowledgment or recognition of the issues of M\u0101ori seats and mana whenua, so I am going to return to that topic. I want to talk about it in terms of the history of local government and M\u0101ori representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ELocal government has an appalling history of addressing mana whenua issues in T\u0101maki and, indeed, right across the motu. That is parallel with a fairly bad record on environmental issues. If members do not believe me, they should just ask the kaitiaki of T\u012Bkapa Moana, the Hauraki Gulf; or ask Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei about \u014Ckahu Bay; or ask Ng\u0101ti Te Ata about the Manukau Harbour, which has been used as a toilet for a long time, ever since the council moved the toilet there from the Waitemat\u0101; or ask Ng\u0101ti Te Ata about the w\u0101hi tapu on the \u0100whitu Peninsula. Beyond T\u0101maki, right across this country, public toilets and landfills, and marinas and subdivisions have regularly been built on w\u0101hi tapu and kai moana beds, all legally consented to by local government. There are endless ghastly instances of sacred sites and food sources being trampled on by local councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIn the last few years some councils have faced the mirror to some degree with regard to the marginalisation of tangata whenua as first-nation people, and, indeed, in terms of other groups that are not made up of older, wealthier P\u0101keh\u0101 people and that have not managed to get on to local councils. Some of that leadership for change comes from T\u0101maki, from Waitakere City Council and Manukau City Council. Manukau City Council, in particular, has been strong on te Tiriti dialogue and cultural recognition. That is not to say it has a totally healthy te Tiriti - based relationship with mana whenua, but at least it has sought advice from wise heads. We look to lose a lot if we lose that kind of spirit. In contrast with that, the Auckland City Council has not been a shining light of cultural respect towards tangata whenua. From the community board level, where in many instances it has failed to give donations and grants to M\u0101ori groups, right through to the mayoralty it is hard to recall a single act of real power-sharing instigated by Auckland City Council, despite the best efforts of advisory groups, including the leadership of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei. What does this mean for the future? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003ESu\u2019a William Sio has talked about the structural failings of this bill. He is correct that local council rhetoric, or indeed Crown rhetoric, about diversity is meaningless without a structural reflection in the law. We have a sorry history in local government in terms of te Tiriti abuse, but we had an opportunity to change that. The mana whenua and M\u0101ori seats issues were like a small light at the end of a dark tunnel of structural racism and privilege. But what the hell\u2014what have we done? We are saying P\u0101keh\u0101 can represent all those other issues; we do not need the M\u0101ori seats. Yet P\u0101keh\u0101 have consistently failed, and have demonstrated an absolute inability, to respond to M\u0101ori views and values. We certainly cannot be said to represent M\u0101ori, so why do we not have the M\u0101ori seats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003EIt is, indeed, with great regret that I continue to raise this matter. I do feel that a really strong opportunity for change was lost here. As I said in an earlier speech to the Committee, the issue was about what the submitters wanted. It is with great sadness that I hear people talk about the need for a strong, forward-moving, regional, unified new authority, when the core opportunity for it to have strength, unity, and a regional perspective on many issues to do with resource management, with the environment, and with justice, which would have been heard through the M\u0101ori seats, is lost. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec716c54be574db7b02cfae0e491838f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec716c54be574db7b02cfae0e491838f\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to be speaking again in the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. It has certainly been a long time coming. It has been at least 50 years since concerns and grumblings about the governance of Auckland started. It has not been working and there have been many attempts to fix it. Once the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance got going, consulted, and reported back, it was clear the Government had to move fast. Although the previous Government started this process, it is the current Government that will be finishing it, and that is what this bill is about. It is the second bill of three. Basically, the commission said that reform was urgent, and it stressed that doing nothing would be a high cost to Auckland. The region was suffering from bureaucracy, from stifling red tape, roads were blocked, and businesses and the economy were suffering. That is why we are here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI want to touch on the voting system. There has been debate about it already today, and certainly the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee had a number of submissions regarding whether we should have the single transferable vote (STV) system versus the first-past-the-post system. There were a lot of submissions for STV. It was felt it would be more democratic and perhaps would give greater representation of ethnic minorities\u2014very valid points. It is good in theory but I think, unfortunately, it has been very poor in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EEssentially, with this bill, which will be in place for the local body elections in September 2010, all of Auckland will be facing a totally new system. It will be totally foreign. Aucklanders will be voting for the Auckland Council, for one super-council if members like to call it that, and 20 to 30 boards. It will be a whole new system. The history of STV in the Auckland area is that it is used for the district health board elections, which have occurred in 2004 and 2007. Quite frankly, I will not say it is a disaster but the number of invalid votes is absolutely phenomenal. They have got worse not better, and the voter turnout is getting poorer, as well. Voters are turning off. Why are they turning off? I guess that is the question. Is it due to the voting system? Is it due to apathy? Who knows? Certainly, I think the voting system is critical. We have to get it right. I think that for the first election the voting system needs to be simple so that people can understand it. It should be first past the post, and after that Aucklanders can decide for themselves what voting system they want to follow. I think that, on balance, the committee felt that would be the best way to go forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little bit about remuneration. We had some submissions on the remuneration of the new local board members. Under the current system, community board members get quite a modest salary. It is very modest indeed for the work that they do; one could almost call it voluntary or altruistic-type work. The submitters said to us that that means that the individuals who currently step up either can afford to step up or have the time on their hands to step up, and that possibly people who would like to do so but cannot afford to stop their day job or whatever are precluded. The new local boards will be quite different, with new roles and responsibilities. A paragraph in the commentary on the bill suggests that the Remuneration Authority\u2014we cannot tell it what to do\u2014align the remuneration of the new local board members with the level of responsibility of their work. Hopefully, it will follow through and a whole different range of diverse people will step up. That would be a very good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI want to talk a wee bit about the mayor. I think the election in 2010 in Auckland will be quite exciting. We already have a couple of candidates. Certainly, the new Auckland mayor, he or she\u2014and, who knows, it might be a she\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11c24ab4efc4c53831f63e011c08c3e\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It should be, shouldn\u2019t it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9deaba856184511b35a4d86128319bb\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: I agree. It would be great to have a female Auckland mayor. The mayor, whoever it might be, will have the huge responsibility of bringing the region together, bringing all areas together. He or she will have to show vision and leadership. They will have 20 councillors to work with. Those councillors will come from all over Auckland. The select committee recommends that one should be from the Rodney District, one from the Franklin District, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002227fc09b16e284c63b16a6eac63d3297f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227fc09b16e284c63b16a6eac63d3297f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask National when Tau Henare will take the call. When will Tau Henare take the call on this particular issue? Tau Henare has had a lot to say publicly on this issue and about the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide. Tau Henare\u2019s colleague and the spokesperson for Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, Ng\u0101rimu Blair, was reported today as saying that he supports the one person, one vote principle. He supports one person, one vote in here too. He wants to know why Tau Henare is being muzzled. Why can Tau Henare not vote according to his conscience and what he has said publicly in this Chamber? I think it is fair to say that Ng\u0101rimu Blair has a very appropriate name. He was named after Ng\u0101rimu VC, who has had the highest honour for bravery that a New Zealander can get. We are not asking Tau Henare to be nearly as brave as his relatives; we are asking him to do what he is asking other people to do, and work on the basis, as the Minister has said, of one person, one vote. Why will National not let Tau Henare vote according to his conscience? Why can he not do what Mike Minogue used to do on a regular basis? Georgina te Heuheu has done it, as have a number of other National members. It used to be their kaupapa. It used to be the way that the National members did it, and they were proud. They would say something outside, and they would follow it up inside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI ask two questions, really. Why does National not have the courage of its convictions to take the whip off Tau Henare? There is not a word, not a whisper, and not a murmur from National about that. Even given that, why does Tau Henare\u2014who has so much to say outside, including some pretty direct descriptions of the Minister in charge of the bill, Rodney Hide\u2014not follow up in this Chamber what he has said outside? It is all very well being a lion in front of the TV cameras, but if he is a mouse in here, there is not much point. What is he doing? Apparently he is in a competition with Nikki Kaye for a list spot in Auckland. They know that they will have some problems there. Jackie Blue has gone already; she is not even part of that competition. But a fight is going on for the last list\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1417db5a78041e28e6be79dbd08909a\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Allan Peachey!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc50ac107db43d08e1a4c8eae1c823d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think Allan Peachey will be all right. He will win a seat. But a fight is going on for that last spot on the Auckland list. When John Key tells Tau Henare to jump, he is now asking how high he should jump. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI just got slightly confused because George Hawkins is over the other side of the Chamber. Every now and again I think he should be over the other side, but on this occasion he is physically on the other side of the Chamber causing a little bit of confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWhen Rodney Hide is telling Tau Henare how to vote, it gets to the point of being ridiculous. What sort of member of Parliament do we have? People know I have had a disagreement or two with Mr Henare, but the thing about him is one knows where he stands. He tells us, he is direct, and he is very clear. He has told people all over Auckland that there would be M\u0101ori seats and a mana whenua seat or two, as well. I want to know when Tau Henare will get alongside Hone Harawira and do what is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002288addab4b3434fee8145bcaa9b4976f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288addab4b3434fee8145bcaa9b4976f5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I also want to talk about the Auckland boundaries. I come from the Bay of Plenty, and we proudly set up a Bay of Plenty hub. We had a great meeting with Phil Goff and the mayors of the region, and we talked about the super-city because every region in the country is starting to ponder it. It was very clear from the democratic leaders of our region that we want to have a say. The good people of the Bay of Plenty want to have a say on what the correct and appropriate boundaries are if local government reform extends after the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I told those mayors they could bet their bottom dollar the reforms would extend to the Bay of Plenty. Rodney Hide will not stop as the Minister of Local Government. After the Auckland super-city legislation, he will move out into the regions. I told them it was time we got together so we can design our own future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the boundary issue in this bill, we see what a botch-up has been made. It has caused concern and anxiety. People are marching on the streets because they know what is right for them, and that the lines drawn on the map are simply wrong. Those lines are stupid, and it took leaders in the community like Mike Lee from the Auckland Regional Council to say how ridiculous it is to manage the natural assets of the region by separating off an area from the Auckland region and saying we could manage it as one. It was great to see people like Mike Lee stand up and fight the good fight about boundary changes. We can be sure that members around the country from different regions are telling the Government that Rodney Hide, who is a coalition partner and the Minister of Local Government outside of Cabinet, is wielding such power of influence over the National Government\u2014the tail is wagging the dog\u2014that he will extend his fingers down into the rest of New Zealand and will tell them what to do. He will go out there and say that the Government is listening and that the door is always open, and John Key will bounce around behind him and say that his door is also always open and the Government is listening to the good people. But the Government has drawn the lines on the map. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EGovernment members think they know best how local bodies want to manage their own communities of interest and the regional council configuration of local authorities. They have got it wrong in Auckland, and at the last minute they changed what they originally proposed, because the good people of Auckland got up and said that the Government had got it wrong. It took an eleventh-hour visit up to Rodney for a bit of deep and meaningful conversation for the Government to say it would change the boundaries and Rodney could come in. Poor old Dr Paul Hutchison really misses out. The good people of Rodney win, but poor old Dr Paul, who has been a fantastic member for the National Party, advocating for his constituency, has been trampled. The mana of the M\u0101ori Party has been trampled because the Minister, who listened and knows best, said there would be no M\u0101ori seats on the new Auckland super-council. He said there would be no M\u0101ori seats and no representation, as he knows best. He said he will work out a mana whenua relationship; that will please everybody, and then they will go away. Well, the good iwi of Auckland will not go away and the iwi of New Zealand will not go away on this issue. The iwi of New Zealand will remind the Government, after the 2010 local body elections, that they were ignored and trampled over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ELabour set up the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Act that allowed three seats on the regional council. That was Mita Ririnui\u2019s bill in 2001, and the good old Nats, the way they used to, let Georgina te Heuheu cross the floor because she felt strongly. But that is not the case any more; they are all muzzled. They all get up in the Chamber and rave, and say they will go out into the community at community rallies and h\u012Bkoi, but nothing has changed. The people were not listened to. They were trampled over by the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide, who dances on the head of a pin about consultation and listening and ignores the good people of Auckland. I think the rest of New Zealand needs to look very closely at this. In the next election they need to watch the power that the minority ACT Party wields over National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa159533a4144c87ab5b297e164fa3ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa159533a4144c87ab5b297e164fa3ff\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to touch on some of the points that were raised this morning. I know we have moved from the issues around M\u0101ori representation and on to ethnic representation and boundary issues, but my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard raised some relevant issues. It is important that we go back and revisit those issues, because I get the impression that the Government is trying to move this thing along so that the real issues, the ones that people think about on a daily basis, are swept over so we can move on to the mechanical or technical aspects of this legislation. The real debate gets swallowed up and lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe Hon Trevor Mallard mentioned the contribution of the Hon Tau Henare, a former Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. I want to revisit some of the comments he made. This is not an attack or challenge to Tau Henare, but to all the M\u0101ori members of the National Party. My colleague Steve Chadwick mentioned the absolute support that I received in 2001 from the Hon Georgina te Heuheu on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Bill, and I know her views on M\u0101ori representation in the proposed Auckland super-city remain the same as they were in 2001. She has been very public, although guarded, in expressing her views. When she has spoken in the Chamber, those views, in a subtle way, have challenged the Minister sitting in the chair. She has come out in the open and admitted upfront that she is in support of M\u0101ori representation. I am wondering why the Hon Georgina te Heuheu does not come down to the Chamber. I know we are not allowed to comment on why people are not here, but it would be very helpful if she could be consistent in making her views clear to the members of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThere are M\u0101ori members of the National Party who have not been upfront about their views on M\u0101ori representation in the proposed Auckland super-city. I think it is basically because they have been muzzled. Although I acknowledge that some of them are new members, and it will take some time for them to settle into some of the to-ing and fro-ing of political life, there is a time when people have to stand up and be counted. They have to get up and speak their minds. It would also be very helpful if the only remaining member of the M\u0101ori Party in the Chamber, Hone Harawira, got to his feet and shared some of his whakaaro with us, because I know they are quite relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EWe spoke today about boundaries. It is very easy for the Minister to draw boundaries around the proposal for the Auckland super-city, but there are boundaries that overlie the boundaries that are proposed in the legislation. Those are the boundaries of tangata whenua\u2014of Ng\u0101puhi, Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, Tainui, and many other iwi who hold mana whenua over that particular area. Before we go any further in speaking about the carve-up of that great city, some consideration has to be given to those ancestral tribal boundaries. I know there has not been sufficient debate on that in the Chamber today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI am told that there were 287 submissions made to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and I am told that the Hon Tau Henare was very thorough in terms of his consultations around the area. He even went to Waiheke Island to listen to submissions. What he did not say in the Chamber is that those submissions from M\u0101ori were made on the basis of their traditional boundaries. In other words, they and they alone have mana whenua over the T\u0101maki-makau-rau district. Anyone proposing anything that would affect their mana whenua had an obligation to listen very carefully to what they had to say. For the past 24 hours in this Chamber, the Government has said that it listened. Its members have said that so many times that I think they have convinced themselves that they did listen. In fact, people are ringing in, sending emails, and texting saying \u201CWhy didn\u2019t the Government listen to M\u0101ori?\u201D. I have to text them back and say: \u201CWell, actually the Government is saying \u2026\u201D. Now, if that is not the case, then they have a case to present to the Government. But I do not think the Government will listen to that, either. In M\u0101oridom we have an old saying: \u201CM\u0101 te huruhuru ka rere te manu. M\u0101 te hinengaro, ka m\u014Dhio he aha te m\u0101ramatanga.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[With feathers a bird will fly. With a mind, one will know what enlightenment is.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EYou see, everything around the Auckland proposal for M\u0101ori brings up the issue of assets capture. In other words, there is a fear that ratepayer assets will be transferred to some sort of conglomerate that in the future will ring-fence and dispose of them. That is a real fear for M\u0101ori in the Auckland area. What will that mean for M\u0101ori assets? I think it will mean a lot, as it did in the Bay of Plenty when the Bay of Plenty bill was introduced. There is also the issue around the Government listening but not hearing, as has happened in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002250d4f5f5fe8d4c62bbbc9a6b095222b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d4f5f5fe8d4c62bbbc9a6b095222b2\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will make some comments on the issue of boundaries, but first I observe how good it is to see a spark of life on the Government benches. We on this side of the Chamber were getting quite downhearted, noting that there have been only two speeches by National members since 10.30 this morning. We have sent George Hawkins over there to try to even up the numbers. One would think the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was a game of soccer in the park on a Saturday morning the way it is going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the most extraordinary and bizarre episodes of this Government\u2019s mishandling of the Auckland governance reforms is its attempt to lop off the northern and southern ends of Auckland. It proposed to consign 25 percent of the land area to outside the super-city. The proposal had heads shaking all over the city of Auckland. In an exercise that was really designed to integrate and build a more cohesive Auckland, here was the Government lopping off 25 percent of the land area, including some of our most important, beloved, and spectacular natural assets. If we look at Rodney District we see that the Government proposed to put the very precious northern beaches\u2014those north of Waiwera\u2014and a number of our regional parks outside the Auckland boundaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225678524c6ba44598bb157a530d987596\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Crazy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59d65f185b641b489364362f59179e3\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely crazy, as my colleague Darien Fenton just commented. It is very hard to know how the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, ever came to the conclusion that it was a good idea. I was on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and I heard the submissions that people in Rodney gave when the committee sat in Rodney. There was diversity of opinion, but for the Associate Minister to just lick his finger and stick it in the wind as a way of making an important decision like this, and to blindly ignore the advice of the royal commission on where the boundaries should go, seems utterly bizarre. It was really only the campaigning by the Auckland Regional Council chairman, Mike Lee, and his pointing out the situation to Aucklanders and alerting them to the fact that some of our most precious parks and northern beaches were going to be given away that aroused public opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe saw an admirable example of listening, but that listening process exposed some seriously deficient decision-making. We saw at the eleventh hour, 24 hours before the bill came back to the House, a panicked move by the Government to bring north Rodney back into the fold. The citizens of Warkworth, Matakana, Omaha, Pakiri, and Leigh breathed a big sigh of relief. But that leaves the problem of Franklin, the fact that the current boundary goes through Pukekohe and Waiuku, and the fact that Hunua\u2019s Mangatawhiri Dam and Mangatangi Dam, which hold 54 percent of Auckland\u2019s bulk water supply, and three regional parks outside Auckland\u2019s boundaries were just given away. If Mr John Carter listened to the people of Auckland he would realise that that is the last thing they want to see happening in the new super-city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne has to wonder what the difference is. There is a direct analogy in looking at the cases of Rodney and Franklin. The arguments the royal commission made about providing sufficient rural land to act as a buffer against the pressures of urban development have just been ignored. The member for Rodney attended a meeting with 200 angry people in Warkworth last Saturday. That was enough, it seems, to turn the Government round on this important decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f149e6b9267740ad8189417b5c0c5b88\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t enough on trees or the h\u012Bkoi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66f9eb3b1c34c99b19502c243d31962\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That is true, and it was not enough that several hundred people attended meetings over the last few months in Franklin. That has not enabled the MP for Hunua, Paul Hutchison, to get his way\u2014poor old Paul Hutchison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will make some comments that I did not get to during my last speech. We were talking about single transferable vote earlier in the afternoon and the fact that the Government has decided that first past the post is to be the voting system for the first elections, in spite of the fact that single transferable vote is fairer and more representative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223d4a1dc1f0dd4d4c80576998bade233a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d4a1dc1f0dd4d4c80576998bade233a\u0022\u003EBRENDON BURNS (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. As a Christchurch MP I can say that if we ever approach local government restructuring in Canterbury, I only hope that we do it a hell of a lot better than what has been done here with this rushed, inconsistent, and often flawed process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EIn my view, local government is about two things. First, it is about representation. The bill should be about the best possible representation for the people of Auckland. Second, local government is about the relationship between those people who have been elected to run the super-city and those who have elected them. It should not be about any of us, in effect, as central government politicians. It most certainly should not be about any agendas that central government politicians might have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EOne of the things that struck me about the bill from the outset is the potential it presents, in bringing together the Auckland councils, for privatisation of Auckland assets. That remains a very real and key concern. We are bringing together in the Auckland super-city some $28 billion worth of assets\u2014most notably, assets such as Ports of Auckland and Watercare Services. They are very much two glittering prizes for privatisation, and certainly many in the investment community would look at them as such. There is nothing in the bill to protect those assets. I acknowledge the very good work that my colleague Phil Twyford has done to promote that issue, through a website and other means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EBut I believe that in other policy settings the Government is going the other way, towards the potential for privatisation. I note most particularly that in March the Government announced a review of foreign ownership, to make it easier for foreigners to invest in this country. Even more recently, it announced that any Australian investment body wanting to buy assets in New Zealand can now do so up to a limit of $500 million\u2014that is, half a billion dollars in assets. Of course, the net effect, even though the investors are our good friends from Australia, is the same. It still has the potential to drive our current account deficit to become even wider, to drive our dollar further upwards, along with our interest rates, and, in effect, to make us beggars in our own land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EWater is the basis of the new economy, and Watercare Services will be providing water to over a million New Zealanders in Auckland. If we have in Mr Hide\u2014and this is not anything contentious\u2014a very strong belief in the privatisation ethic, and if we have embodied and articulated in him a belief that core services do not even stretch to the provision of such essential services, in my view, as libraries, then the potential for privatisation is very strong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267aa5137-7503-4a8f-bde1-1811615598e2\u0022\u003EAnother comment I will make is around the formation of the new community boards or councils. I support them as a very good concept, but the key for any community board or council is the resourcing and funding it receives. In Christchurch we have about half a dozen of these bodies. They are served by very well-motivated people who work very hard on behalf of their particular sections of the Christchurch community. But I have to say that their powers are very limited. They can, for instance, decide where a bus stop can be sited, but they have no power over transport issues, like the running of bus services. They can fund the resowing of a sports field, but they do not have the capacity to purchase or create a sports field. I think the key to the successful future of the boards in Auckland comes back to the same thing. It comes back to the resources and funding they have, and the protections that are in place to ensure that publicly owned resources remain in public hands. I am not convinced that that is provided for in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4af0ef69d754fdba82566b2051ae288\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4af0ef69d754fdba82566b2051ae288\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E As an Auckland member I have been very interested in this debate about the difference between Rodney and Franklin. Ostensibly, both are in the same sorts of circumstances. Rodney was all-in, then it was half out, and now it is back in. Franklin was in, then half out. Government members say that the formation of local boards is about the watershed, not the community of interest, but the main principles of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill are around community of interest. That is the way the Government has argued the formation of local boards. I will get to that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EApart from the boundary issue looking like a complete muddle, a complete shambles, the mystery for me was unanswered until the penny dropped. A Minister responsible for the bill, John Carter, is also the chairman of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and is also the member of Parliament for the district that got its way. A Minister responsible for the bill is the chairman of that committee. That is a complete conflict of interest, of which I know no precedent in my time in Parliament. That Minister is also the local member for one of the highly disputed territories. I bet that the honest, hard-working member Paul Hutchison wishes he were the Minister. He would have fixed it for his people. Why was he left out in the cold? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHave we ever heard anything as ridiculous as defining an electoral boundary on a watershed that runs contrary to a community of interest? The bill is devoid of logic and principle at that level. It is devoid of logic and principle and shows all the signs of a Government that is unravelling\u2014as if we needed another example after the emissions trading scheme. The Government has a deal with the M\u0101ori Party one day and a deal with Labour the next. If the M\u0101ori Party deal only goes as far as the select committee, the Government thinks it had better get back into bed with Labour if we will still have it. What a shambles! Here is a Government that is embracing \u201CMuldoonism\u201D with a smile that is looking raggeder and raggeder by the day. But I will move on to the next issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621bcadbb0944b43ae1e05dc629c60f2\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Raggeder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249705203d7f40d68722be5657889b9f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CRaggeder\u201D seems to roll off the tongue, like \u201CHon-ourable Hon-e\u201D. It evokes what it true of the Government: that it is fraying around the edges on important issues like Auckland. But that is a shame, because the Auckland issues are hugely important to New Zealand. We accept the argument\u2014in fact, we proposed it\u2014that if Auckland succeeds, New Zealand has a better chance of succeeding. Auckland needed to pull together better, we needed clearer definition of regional services, and we needed stronger regional organisation. That is why we set up the royal commission. Not everything in the royal commission report was what we wanted, but it is one thing to disagree with the royal commission\u2019s report and another to replace the 800-page document with a 20-page political manifesto that was absolutely designed to gerrymander the politics of Auckland. That is why we called National\u2019s response \u201CMaking Auckland Bluer\u201D. That was what it was about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat process has continued right through the legislation. It is very pertinent in the multi-member wards and it is very pertinent to the structure of the local boards. I suspect that before the Government took a position on how many boards there should be it crunched a lot of numbers. I suspect that the Government studied all the permutations of where the boundaries could be drawn and worked out, on the balance of probabilities, the number of wards there would have to be for the best chance of there being a right-leaning council. You can bet your bottom dollar that that is what this issue is about, because there is no other demonstrable logic to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f50efc2e00484780cbcf6910d5286a\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister smiles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273dd9bd287b4eb8b2f5db4ebbf013e9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister in the chair, John Carter, smiles because he knows he has done a hatchet job on the councils of Auckland. He knows it is a hatchet job. He is smirking in the chair because he knows there is not a damn thing Auckland can do about it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fac1276ee94d8e940c64a7ca94a7b0\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Done to a dog\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226301f47cd3af4c7f801ab070063ca40c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It is done like a dog\u2019s dinner. Auckland was done when the first Auckland bill was rammed through under urgency, and we are back here again in urgency to ram through this bill in the dead of the afternoon. That is what it is doing: ramming it through in the dead of the afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAll National can muster is the member for Tauranga. He is here to try to defend Government interests. Do we know why that member is here? He does not want to see John Carter carving up his city council. He is saying that the fight starts at the Bombay Hills and that John Carter cannot come over them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00220410d6dc121f4eb7a347baa2498974df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220410d6dc121f4eb7a347baa2498974df\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak. In terms of the boundaries, one has to ask why the Government is so determined to hand over Auckland\u2019s dams to the Waikato Regional Council. We heard many contentious issues as we listened to the people of Auckland take the time to submit on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. One of those issues was the northern and southern boundaries. It is quite good that the Government decided to change its mind at the eleventh hour on the northern boundary. I suppose it did so because its secret agenda had been revealed for all to see. The Government was linking itself closely to Mr Hide\u2019s business people who want to develop that part of northern Rodney without having to go through the normal council consent process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut we have to come back to the southern boundary and to recognise that the bill proposes to partition the Franklin District, with the north joining the Auckland Council and the southern part joining the Waikato District Council. Some members of this House would have received a recent email from Mr Colin Bull, who feels strongly about this issue. So strong is his belief that he believes that the National Government, to which he is affiliated\u2014I am not sure whether he is a supporter or a member of the National Party, but nevertheless he is quite close to it\u2014is making the wrong decision. Funnily enough, when the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee was in Papakura and then in Franklin, listening to submitters, I said to the chairman, the Hon John Carter, that National will get bitten by this bill. I could hear the anger of the submitters, and I said that I thought they were mainly National supporters. He turned to me and said: \u201CWhat do you mean, saying they are our supporters? They are our members!\u201D. People there were fund-raisers for the National Party, and they are the people the Government will have a problem with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EOne of the media headlines yesterday was: \u201CNat MP critical of super-city boundary back-down\u201D. The member for Hunua, Dr Hutchison, said: \u201C\u2026 the boundary goes through the streets of Waiuku,\u201D. The southern boundary is critical because not only will critical water supplies\u201454 percent of Auckland\u2019s total water supply\u2014be cut off but also prime regional parks land, including three major regional parks, all paid for by Auckland ratepayers and all managed by the Auckland Regional Council, will be given away. The boundary divides the towns of Waiuku and Pukekohe, separating the residents of northern Franklin from essential services and infrastructure. Earlier today, the chair of the Auckland Regional Council stated in a press release: \u201CThis is absurd and definitely not good local government.\u201D The call we make to the Government on behalf of the people of Auckland is that it is not too late to change the southern boundary, to save face, and to get things right. The Government should listen to the people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe other area that is contentious, in so far as the people of Auckland are concerned, is the local boards. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance came out, after 18 months of extensive research and consultation, and said that, yes, there would be a unitary authority, and underneath that unitary authority there would be local boards of sufficient size to meet and manage the existing needs of the ratepayers of Auckland, and also of sufficient size to recognise that the transition from the existing eight local territorial authorities to a single unitary authority would take time. It would need more time than the Government gave the people of Auckland when it rammed the first Auckland bill through under urgency. During the select committee process people felt they were not given enough time. The process was hasty and rushed, and, of course, the experience of many Aucklanders is that when Governments do that, they get things wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6a0cc23d4ac4a1ea4f2a11133f81b99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6a0cc23d4ac4a1ea4f2a11133f81b99\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It is very good to take a call in this debate. I say to the members of the Opposition that if they pipe down a little they will be able to hear me, and I know they want to hear what I have to say. I wanted to take a call this morning, but like the National Party and like the Government I have been too busy listening. National members love to listen. I have been listening carefully to what members have been saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear what Carol Beaumont had to say right at the end of last night, and I was interested to hear Kelvin Davis earlier this morning. Of course, Carol is the fresh, dynamic face of Labour. She is a unionist, I think. She is clearly a more dynamic, fresh face than Kelvin Davis is, because Kelvin is only a principal. Unionism is a much better career path to get ahead in the Labour Party. What they both said was interesting, and it had a superficial appeal. They were saying that it does not matter that people say they are listening, listening, listening; if they are not listening and it is just a mantra, it does not mean anything. I agree with that. What they are saying is perfectly right. Too often, I think, in politics we have mantras and we say things, but if they do not have meaning behind them, they are not worth the paper they are written on or the air in which they are expelled. So that is no good. It is a bit like Phil Twyford and the secret privatisation agenda campaign he has been running. What is it called?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585815ffd019410faa549fa382fc02c1\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Not Yours to Sell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd0c8f2c26c4729ab0b31465a50b828\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: It does not matter how many times the member says \u201CNot yours to sell\u201D\u2014and he could get some second-rate guitarist to do him a song\u2014[Interruption] That got them going. It does not matter how many times he says that; if there is no substance there, if there is no secret privatisation agenda, then it does not mean anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe difficulty for Carol and for Kelvin, and for my earnest friend Phil Twyford, is that, actually, National members were listening. New Zealand really liked the fact that we acted on what we heard. Let me give members a couple of examples. Labour members do not like this, because they want to say the Government was not listening and nothing happened. The first example concerns the local boards. We changed the shape and the form of those local boards and we beefed up their powers substantially, because of what we heard at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. We made changes based on what we heard from Nikki Kaye\u2019s \u201CWaihetians\u201D from Waiheke. We heard from people in Devonport, whom Phil Twyford got to know a little during the election campaign. We also listened to the people in M\u0101ngere and the people in Waitakere. We heard what they said. We heard that they wanted a more inclusive, lower-to-the-ground local board that listens to what they say, and we acted on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238db9df6097d424aa675555f61435810\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: And you gave them one with no power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f507274b8a484d9ac0d8eeab0654fb\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: We do not need a commissioner for social inclusion, actually, I say to Rajen Prasad. We gave the local boards the powers they need. We listened, and we acted, and we changed things. What about the councillors? There will be 20 from local wards. There were going to be some at-large councillors. I will be honest: I went into the select committee process thinking that at-large councillors was a good idea. I thought it would allow elected people to stand back and take the whole region\u2019s interests into account. I, superficially, quite liked that idea. But we heard from the people of Auckland. We heard an overwhelming number of submissions from people from diverse communities, and they did not like the idea of at-large councillors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddd5524c5874751bcabe6532232d5e3\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Were you on the select committee, Simon? I never heard you say anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224abb7520c76f4fc8b613334a378c29fc\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: The member never heard me say anything because I was too busy listening. I remember one lady, from the North Shore, I think, who said that as a member of Parliament I am elected to a constituency and I have to listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00220b8d4c62c88944fab337df059d4b1999\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b8d4c62c88944fab337df059d4b1999\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad to see that John Carter is the Minister in the chair, and I am wondering whether he could answer a question. I must say I was delighted that the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, actually rose to answer one question I asked, but I had one other question, which the Minister has not yet answered, and it concerns the clause dealing with the role of the Mayor of Auckland. Subclause (3) of clause 9, \u201CMayor of Auckland\u201D, states that the mayor and the mayor alone has the power \u201Cto establish processes and mechanisms for the Auckland Council to engage with the people of Auckland, whether generally or particularly\u201D. Does this power override the Local Government Act? Can this particular clause override the consultation procedures set out in the Local Government Act? I would be very appreciative if the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, was able to answer that question\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E I am worried about what might happen in a year or so. If, for example, John Banks achieves his ambition and becomes the Mayor of Auckland, and then achieves his further ambition to sell off some of the Auckland Council\u2019s $28 billion of assets, Aucklanders might wake up and ask why they had not been consulted. They might ask why no one had gone through a consultation process on such a major issue\u2014or even on a minor issue\u2014and they might be puzzled as to how it had happened. Then they would realise it was because of a provision in this bill. If John Carter is not able to answer this question, then maybe another member of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, like Phil Twyford, can. Maybe George can answer it. Was a legal opinion given on it? I think it is a very serious issue. Did someone on the committee ask why the mayor has such extensive powers and is able to choose the mechanism by which people are consulted? I wonder whether the select committee was given a legal opinion as to whether this provision overrides the Local Government Act. It is a serious concern, and I do not want Aucklanders to wake up in a couple of years\u2019 time and ask how it happened. I do not want them to find that it happened because Parliament was asleep or had not recognised the implications of this particular clause. So I would really appreciate it if Mr Carter could answer that question about the mayoral powers of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI know that Mr Carter has become irritated with my questioning some of the functions that he believes the local boards will have, but let me take this opportunity to congratulate John Carter on providing excellent and impartial chairing of the submission process. The only thing I would say is that when I was there I felt he raised the expectations of submitters that a whole lot of new powers would be given to the local boards, and I think they will be deeply disappointed when they discover that the powers are very limited\u2014especially by the veto power of the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe other issue I want to raise is the cost of this huge transition. Rodney Hide said in a speech that local government representatives were coming to see him to complain about the tens of millions of dollars of costs being imposed on local government by the National Government, the Government of the day. Yet this bill will impose a huge amount of cost on Auckland ratepayers. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance estimated that the cost of the transformation from the eight existing councils to the super-city would be $120 million to $140 million. In answer to questions raised in the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee the Government members could only say they thought it would be about the same amount\u2014$120 million to $140 million. As for the benefits, they hoped the super-city would bring annual savings of between 2.5 and 3.5 percent. So the first question is where the $120 million to $140 million will come from, especially given that Vote Local Government approved only $10 million for the implementation of the recommendations. Where will the rest of the $120 million to $140 million come from? Why have we not been given proper costings, not just some vague estimate by the royal commission, of how much it will all cost? We now know that Auckland ratepayers will have to foot the whole bill. Also, what are the estimated savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022248db664f24c4a6485f524c5621c8265\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022248db664f24c4a6485f524c5621c8265\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up on the issue of costs, which was raised by the previous speaker, Sue Kedgley. A very interesting little group in Auckland\u2014the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Board\u2014has raised a very real issue of concern about what will happen to the status of the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Act. The Act was passed last year by the Labour Government. That issue is also of concern to Labour members. The board had a meeting with the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and I heard back\u2014as I am the Opposition spokesperson on arts, culture and heritage\u2014that he was incredibly dismissive and rather arrogant. He listened but, again, went away. We do not know what will happen. The Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Board has no confidence, and it is feeling huge anxiety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe board has an enormous responsibility to use rates from the region to fund the Auckland Festival Trust, the Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra, the Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust, the Auckland Theatre Company, Auckland Zoo, Coastguard Northern Region, the New Zealand National Maritime Museum, NBR New Zealand Opera, the Stardome Observatory and Planetarium, Surf Life Saving Northern Region, and WaterSafe Auckland. Those are huge amenities and they are managed by the funding board. The board members met with the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage, Christopher Finlayson, and he did give them a better hearing but he could not give them any reassurance whatsoever. We are debating the second Auckland bill under urgency, and there is absolutely no transition planning about what on earth will happen to the funding board. I think that is shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EAuckland has many good community organisations and facilities that deserve certainty and security of ongoing funding in this transitional phase. The ramming of this Auckland super-city bill through the House under urgency in order to be ready for the 2010 election causes uncertainty and anxiety for many, many organisations in Auckland. There has been nothing from the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage about the way that the funding board will be supported, and certainly there has been nothing from Rodney Hide about it. The Local Government Act, which was Labour\u2019s reform of local government, talks about cultural, social, and economic well-being. Well, a lot of the organisations I have mentioned come under that cultural umbrella. We all want the super-city legislation to produce a vibrant city, but the arts community in Auckland has no security of ongoing funding, at all. That is appalling. At the end of this urgency period this bill will be passed, the Government having said with high-handed arrogance: \u201CWe listen. We know what\u2019s best for Auckland. We\u2019ll sort it out\u2014don\u2019t worry.\u201D It came out with platitudes like \u201CDon\u2019t worry, your future is safe in our hands.\u201D It is certainly an issue that the funding trust has no security of ongoing funding. It has funding until 2010, but what happens beyond the next local body election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think the arts community of Auckland, which is vibrant and is the heart of New Zealand\u2019s economic driver as its major city, deserves better in terms of long-term security of funding for the iconic Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra, the theatre company, opera, and all those other wonderful organisations, such as the Auckland Festival Trust. It deserves better. It is a funding agency, but it is caught in the transition from the protection it was given last year by the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Act to the new super-city. Those sorts of issues are absolutely major, and they give the good people of Auckland no confidence that, with the passing of this second Auckland bill, the Government will dot the i\u2019s and cross the t\u2019s during the transition period in these uncertain times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI wanted to bring up the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Board. It plays a wonderful part in the vibrancy of Auckland in connecting communities through the arts, festivals, and events. It deserves certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec45518bfe2748fa9f2480acb2763115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec45518bfe2748fa9f2480acb2763115\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Two or three points have been made that I think are worth responding to, but I will start by saying that one of the things we have been waiting to hear about from Opposition members is the actual principle about the things they consider are important. Opposition speakers have gone into a whole lot of minor detail. I am very disappointed in the Opposition\u2019s debate, because the bill is significant. Passing the bill is one of the biggest things that will happen in the House during this term of Parliament. We are debating a measure that will affect a third of our country, the powerhouse of our country, and it matters. We are setting up a regional structure that will look after things in Auckland. With rare exception, I have not heard Opposition members saying that the legislation is important for New Zealand and that they support it. One or two of them have referred to it, to be fair, but they have not bothered to debate why it needs to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIn fact, most members opposite agree with the bill. But they should be saying so, because it is important legislation. If members agree with it, then they should be standing up and saying that it will be good for Auckland and good for New Zealand. Unfortunately, they are not telling the public about the wonderful opportunity that is being set up, which the previous Labour Government began and which the National Government has picked up and made happen. We will put in place a structure that will ensure that the future of Auckland is secure and that those things that matter on a regional basis will be dealt with. That is really important for us to say and to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere has been some comment about the issue of local boards, and I think it is important for us to spend a little bit of time debating it. I know that some members\u2014Sue Kedgley is one of them\u2014are still concerned that we have not got it right. She and I will agree to disagree on that. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. One of the things the royal commission report talks about is local councils, and I suspect that much of it was influenced by one of its members, David Shand. He was a Labour candidate some time ago and a real leftie. He has disappointed me. The Shand report was a failure, and I suspect that his input into the royal commission report was not much better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the fact that the chairman of the New Zealand Community Boards, Mike Cohen, whom most members opposite will know, as do most of our members, has said that he is very pleased with the Government\u2019s decisions in respect of the number of local boards we are putting up and the powers they are being given. I also draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the commentary on the bill. It is important for members opposite to remember what Labour\u2019s minority report says about local powers. Labour actually agrees with what the Government has done about local powers. Labour does not agree with the number of local boards, and I accept that. It says there should be 14 to 20 boards, and we say there should be 20 to 30. We are not that far away; the Opposition has shifted a lot. With regard to local powers, the Labour Opposition agrees with what the Government has said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIf we look at what the Green Party members have said\u2014although I accept that they, and especially Sue Kedgley, have some concerns\u2014we see that in the main they are not saying that what we are endeavouring to do in respect of local powers is wrong. They are just concerned as to whether we have got it right. As I have said, we will find out as we move forward. I say to listeners and to the Committee that the issue of local boards is absolutely important, and the majority of the Committee agrees with the powers that the Government is giving to the local boards. That is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere has been some debate about the issue of community groups, and I remind members that part of the responsibility for the transition will be determined by what is in the third bill on Auckland governance. I make the point that this is an ongoing process. We started with one bill, we are nearly finished now with the second bill, and there will be a third bill. A lot of detail will come through in the third bill that members will take a great deal of interest in, as they should. That detail will be part of what makes the whole thing happen. The third bill will address a lot of the concerns that members have. We will decide in the third bill whether we need to instruct the unitary authority or make a recommendation to the unitary authority as to how it should deal with the community groups and the funding issues that the member Steve Chadwick raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b53743c1fb14c938474cb5af44f3ff4\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc19d41b6044f939593c8a34672d803\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely important, and we concede that. We know that the issue of funding has to be dealt with, and the sorts of issues that the member raised in respect of the organisations and their funding will be dealt with in the third bill. It is a work in progress, and those issues will be dealt with. Believe you me, those issues will be addressed, and when we come to debate them the member will see the Government\u2019s intention and see how the issues will be dealt with. We have not forgotten them; we certainly understand how important they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI remind members that part of this work was always going to have to proceed in steps. We had to make a decision as to whether we would set up the super-city, and we did so in the first bill. We had to make some decisions as to how many local boards and wards there would be, and then we had to pass that over to the Local Government Commission. That is what we have done. The commission will now go through its process, and at the end of it the commission will come out with a decision on the number of councillors, the number and shape of the wards, and the number and shape of the local boards. Then we will pass the third bill, which will make sure that the structure is right and that the work that local communities want done can happen. Just as important is that the Auckland Transition Agency will be doing its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFor some reason the Opposition seems to be saying that this should have happened yesterday, and because it did not we have got it wrong. We never said we would get it right in the first instance. It has been a long process. One thing we can give this Government credit for is that the process has been a heck of a lot shorter than it would have been if that lot opposite had been in power, because they would never have got round to doing it. That is very important for members to understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWith regard to the issue of mayoral powers, which Sue Kedgley raised, although we have recommended that we want the mayor and the council to consult, that does not override the Local Government Act. Members should bear in mind that some changes may be coming forward as Rodney Hide, I, and others work on those sorts of issues. Nevertheless, that does not override the need for consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI will finish on one other point that I think is very important. I pick up the comments that Hone Harawira made last night. I thought his address was very good, and I compliment him on it. His comments were around the issue of M\u0101ori seats. The Opposition has raised the issue a lot, and Hone Harawira picked up on it and was just as cynical as I am about the Opposition\u2019s position on the M\u0101ori seats. We had a contribution from my colleague from up north, Shane Jones\u2014and it is funny that all three of us are part of the debate on M\u0101ori seats. He made the comment that he did not think there should be mana whenua seats. He made that comment here in the Chamber, and he still believes it. The fact is that he said that to us and a number of people in the Chamber. At least he was honest enough to stand up and say it. What really concerns Hone Harawira, me, and, I think, Shane Jones is that it took the Labour Opposition a long time to decide whether it would do anything about the M\u0101ori seats, then it cynically decided that it needed to get on the bandwagon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat is the very point that Hone Harawira made last night. He thinks the decision of the Labour Opposition to support having M\u0101ori seats was cynical. At least he knew where he stood with Rodney Hide, and he knows where he stands with the National Government, but the Labour Opposition played around with the idea until it thought that maybe there was a bit of value in it. That is unfortunate, and it is what worries me about this debate. We should be looking at the issue constructively, because it is hugely important. It really does worry me that all we are hearing from the Opposition is commentary on minor things that have no major impact at all, instead of concentrating on the things that matter\u2014on the fact that we are putting in place a structure that will affect one-third of this country. We will get the regional stuff right and we will get the local boards right. We know it is work in progress, and we know there is a lot of work ahead of us yet. There will be another select committee process, the Local Government Commission will work on the legislation, and the Government will get it right as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9299aef42194d17b4bf89c63fcd8e3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9299aef42194d17b4bf89c63fcd8e3a\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about the issue of the local boards, which is a very important issue. I think it is important to break up the Northlanders who are participating in this debate, because, quite frankly, we need more Aucklanders and fewer Northlanders participating. The issue of the local boards is one that has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db35b7a31454d15ba4d06a456023f10\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Finish your mouthful! What is this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c9885d31014bd3b83cd7c95157ba37\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I have a lozenge because I have a sore throat. The question of the local boards is one of the issues that have been intensively debated over the last few months. I will outline the process that we have gone through and some of the thinking that has gone into the whole question of the local boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe issue of the powers of the local boards was one of the most important that we dealt with, and people will know that Labour members criticised heavily the Government\u2019s proposal for toothless \u201Ctalk shops\u201D, which were announced in April. We took the view, in line with the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, that fewer, stronger, and larger boards were preferable to having myriad small, relatively powerless local boards. We said publicly back in April and May that we favoured a number between the six local boards that the royal commission had recommended and a dozen. We shared the royal commission\u2019s view that if the boards were too small, they would not have the capability to do the important local government place-shaping work, which everyone agrees is essential in this whole area, and we agreed with the royal commission\u2019s view that any kind of cost-benefit analysis could not justify the destruction of six functioning units of local government and their replacement with 20 to 30 small ones, and that such a change would be disruptive and expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EMuch of the debate over the weeks that followed focused on the powers of the local boards. I am glad to acknowledge that the Government saw sense and listened to people around Auckland who were appalled at the prospect that all the power would basically be centralised in the super-city council, and there would be none at the second-tier level. The Government saw sense, and the Associate Minister of Local Government, who is in the chair, deserves some credit for that. I will come back to the question of whether the powers provided for the local boards in the bill are satisfactory and sufficient, but there is no doubt that once we agree in principle to the idea of empowering local boards, the size and number of them becomes less critical. From then on, our view was that a greater number of boards would be quite acceptable, because once we take the question of powers out of the equation, community of interest rather than capability becomes the most important criterion. When we look across Auckland we see that many smaller communities like Waiheke and Great Barrier Island, which are island communities, obviously, have a clearly established community of interest. We felt that rather than the six to 12 local boards that we were initially advocating, something like 14 to 20 would be a more appropriate range.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe took that view because we believed that there are a range of large and small communities in Auckland that have an established community of interest. To go with the number of local boards that the Government has put forward in the bill, which is 20 to 30\u2014if we contemplate the idea of 30 local boards across Auckland\u2014would mean that many of the larger established communities of interest like Waitakere and Manukau would be dismembered and chopped up into small pieces. When the select committee toured around Auckland hearing submissions it was very clear that people in various parts of Auckland felt they had been well served by their councils. They felt those councils represented communities of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI will also say that one of the main concerns for Labour in taking a more conservative approach to the number and the size of local boards was that we felt that the boards need to have a certain critical mass, a certain size, in order to be able to do the place-shaping work. I will use a couple of examples from Waitakere City that are relevant. One of the most impressive things about Waitakere is the economic development work that the council has done, developing quite large areas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ad430f387964618ac3fc58e682e6607\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does Rodney Hide believe in that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ebe0e1db8984b509b58f0b52ad2d5ea\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It is an active state; it is active local government. It is one of the four well-beings. It certainly does not fit within his definition of core services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00220c62564757da4e289b2102128b4e45f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c62564757da4e289b2102128b4e45f0\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou. Mr John Carter, who is sitting next to you, Mr Chairperson, made reference to the fact that there is an absence of content in the speeches that we have been offering on this side of the Chamber in the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. That is gross. That is not only wrong but unfair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI will start with the boundaries. There is no rhyme or reason why the people of Rodney have been put through a roundabout of emotional turmoil while National addresses its own constituency agendas as it tries to draw the boundary in Rodney. There was no principle there. It suited that party to ransack the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance to suit its own political, petty, short-term objectives. This side of the Committee has not done that. This side of the Committee has acted, in so far as the royal commission goes, with great integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI put on record that the references I have made to mana whenua being unworkable and an assault on established democratic standards are revealed in that wretched Supplementary Order Paper put forward by the M\u0101ori Party that says that everyone has to first declare his or her whakapapa. Something akin to a genealogical unit would need to be set up to establish how much of someone\u2019s genealogy belongs to a particular mana whenua tribe. Those issues do not belong in civic space; they belong in the space of the marae. Complicated democratic procedures ought not to be entangled with matters that have to do with marae entitlement, customary ancestry, and the affairs of tangata whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299789e829c854c12ab40fb13f367b5f1\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: So all your colleagues who have been going on about it all week have been wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c1ff33858474daf9155a8a7d0b957ad\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: We are hearing there from the man who was regarded as a cultural truant when he attempted to speak at the mana whenua, tangata whenua M\u0101ori subcommittee on representation. It was evident that that young man, who has senatorial pretensions in Tauranga, is the self-defined prodigy of the National Party. He boasts in Tauranga, with his senatorial ambitions, that every day he does something it is worth 20 years of Winston Peters\u2019 life of service. Of course, we also find every time that young man comes to the Chamber that he does not rant; he pants. He runs from mirror to mirror, so we know exactly how he was regarded on this issue of being M\u0101ori. If I were regarded as and called a cultural truant, I would go back to k\u014Dhanga reo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI come back to the issue of mana whenua. It is a legitimate aspect of M\u0101ori identity. We in the Labour Party, however, did not feel that it would address the entirety of the M\u0101ori population living within the area of Auckland. That, I say to Mr Carter, is a very important point of principle. We could have taken the soft option and agreed with the M\u0101ori Party, and operated on the politics of apologia, but we took what was a very hard, but tried and true, option. That is that if a person belongs to a M\u0101ori iwi and he or she is on the M\u0101ori roll, then that person is entitled to vote, not only if he or she is from Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua or Tainui, and not only if that party is doing secret deals with the big iwi so that funds could be gathered for the next election and the basic working-class M\u0101ori could be sold out on climate change. We did not take that route; the M\u0101ori Party took that route. Those members are the ones who have favoured the p\u016Btea table over the kitchen table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is not correct for the Minister in the chair to say there was no principle or kaupapa. We do not want to turn mana whenua debates into a new gravy train or grievance mentality as to which hap\u016B, which marae, or which tribe ought to be sitting at the council table. We wanted, on the basis of citizenship, those M\u0101ori who are entitled to vote for their parliamentary M\u0101ori representatives in this Chamber to have the same level of entitlement in the area of T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland. The perversity of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s mana whenua argument is that Pita Sharples himself would not have been able to be voted into this Parliament. That occurred to us a long time before it occurred to the M\u0101ori Party members, but it probably suited them, and the M\u0101ori National Party members, who came up with such a complicated model that it was designed to fail. There is a massive point of principle here, and I will debate that principle on every marae in this country. We are here for te iti me te rahi\u2014all M\u0101ori voters of Auckland, not the favoured, privileged few who might have marae in Auckland urban areas. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u00221a700ab46b0c44caae2c8ddac77c6821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a700ab46b0c44caae2c8ddac77c6821\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I was listening very, very hard to what the Minister in the chair, John Carter, was saying a little earlier, and I was wondering how he would design a car. I suspect that Mr Carter would perhaps design the steering wheel first and say that he has the steering wheel. Having done that, he might have stage two, where he might decide what the body of the car might look like, and he then would take another 6 months to decide on the body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f512dcdb6ca047528cc9e981640f8256\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. This cross-exchange here has nothing to do with the member speaking. I ask those members to show courtesy to the member speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229574fd2a1c3248cfb8ce04305fe06718\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. A very controversial point about the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill is the entitlement of M\u0101ori to be represented in the system of governance. I have challenged a member on the other side of the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244308cf946a0468b9b83f40ebb670e98\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Jones. You brought that up when you were speaking, and there will other opportunities to take further calls. I ask you to respect Dr Rajen Prasad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0e87a5488147bd8d6af73e0c3a0ddb\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Then Mr Carter would wonder what kind of engine would be required at stage three, and he would then set about designing an engine. In the end, he would have a dog\u2019s body. When Mr Carter talks about this legislation being well designed\u2014that we will have stage one, stage two, and stage three\u2014and somehow expects at the end of it that some logic will emerge, he is defying logic and good science. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EI think that anybody who designs such a major constitutional change ought to accept the responsibility, and the National Government ought to internalise its responsibility to really give a much broader sense of where all the parts would fit so we could, at any one point, look at the whole thing at the same time. I think that is a responsibility the Government has failed in, so we now have to do stage two of the reforms and come back in a few months\u2019 time to do stage three. We are promised that in stage three all these problems will be solved. It will be too late by then because some of the problems of stage three are being enshrined in stage two, in this particular legislation, right now. I think that is a silly way of designing social policy and designing such a major constitutional change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EI will talk about community boards for a minute. When the Government came up with its idea that there would be 20 to 30 boards, the range of that figure immediately reflects to anybody listening hard enough that the Government does not know how many boards there will be. It is a guess at the moment. There is no logic or science to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022063dc5113ac847a081a099cb26b778fa\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got a range of 40 to 50. How is that different from your range? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5dedd588c5d475ea299af2555e190f1\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Nikki Kaye can say for as long as she likes that we accepted the unitary authority, but we do not accept it at any price. The member has been talking about that today, but this is different. One looks for the logic of 20 to 30 boards, as I am sure my colleagues are looking. What is the logic? There is none, and there was none. The logic we applied to the number of community boards, as has just been explained by Mr Twyford, is viable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a82d6d7aa075425abaacc66580cd693f\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Which is what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022357a8b3a1e8a4b5ea21e31ad6ac2efb8\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: What is viable? I am telling the member now; it is the logic behind the decisions we have made and what we will support. Communities and their interests are important, and we should not chop them up. We can find a way for them to maintain as much of that as possible. That is the logic that leads us to say that we do not take west Auckland and chop it up so that we may have 30 boards. There is nothing illogical about what we are saying. We are saying quite clearly that there is a lot that is illogical about this bill. We have been taking it and deconstructing it limb by limb all day, and we will do it all night, all of next week, and all of the week after if we need to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThis bill is important. It is about the city we love, the city where our children have grown up and where our grandchildren will grow up. It is important for us. One can see quite clearly that when it comes to representation, the process, and the range of decisions, there is a lack of logic around the whole thing. The same applies when we look at the role of the community boards. This worries me a great deal because this will be the tier that will be closest to our families and to those for whom a particular locality is very special. They ought to be involved in the fundamental decisions that have to be made. We are not talking about not taking out those things that have to be centrally organised. Under the current system, the boards do not have enough power. If we read clause 13D(2)(b)(i), (ii), and (iii), we see that therein lies the constraints on the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00222090591231ec420a952de1f4d47c4e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222090591231ec420a952de1f4d47c4e36\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I think we have heard a number of good speeches recently. I commend my colleague and friend Rajen Prasad who has just resumed his seat, and of course the recent contribution from the Hon Shane Jones was excellent as well. I also think the previous comments of the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Carter, were useful in their challenge to us to provide a reasoned statement, as my two colleagues have just done, about the nature of our position on the local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELet us go back to basics. In the first draft of the Government\u2019s proposals, the idea of having a large number of very, very small local boards representing a minimalist view of the State\u2014the Rodney Hide Cabinet paper writ large through the Auckland bill, core services only, no say in their own destiny, could not buy a pencil sharpener, could not hire a staff member, and could hardly make a decision at all\u2014went down like a bucket of sick with Aucklanders, and rightly so. There is nothing like the Rodney Hide vision of the world that has peeled away public support in my part of the world from this Government, other than perhaps the funding cuts to adult and community education\u2014the most expensive $10 million this Government is ever going to save in its 3 years in power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBut that was the starting problem. The Government threw the baby out with the bathwater. It was a deliberate policy of divide and rule. The Government wanted a super powerful unitary Auckland Council gerrymandered to be dominated by the right, with at-large councillors, for generations to come\u2014a gravy train for John Banks; that was the idea\u2014and it wanted to brook no disagreement from below. It would face no threat from a large number of disempowered local boards that were entirely captive to it, in terms of fund-raising, rating, policy making, employment, and definition setting. That was the case reasoned in the submissions, and I can go through the list but I will need more calls to do so. I have pages and pages of submissions from groups\u2014everything from, starting at A, Andrew Body Ltd, Auckland City Council, Cheryl Backstrom from Parnell Trust, Waitakere Enterprise, Peter Buchanan\u2014the list goes on and on. People rose up and said that this model was excessively minimalist and they did not want it, so change it! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHere is where we have to give the Government some reasonable degree of credit. The Government did pare back some of the worst excesses of the Rodney Hide model. It has given the local boards some say in the definition of their local role and in place-shaping; let us say that. But, as my colleagues have said, there are two enduring problems. The first is that there are too many boards. Thirty local boards is way too many. It is divide and rule, still. In my part of Auckland, in Waitakere City, that means going back to the bad old days of the boroughs. It means New Lynn borough competing with Henderson borough, or the Waitakere ward, or the Massey ward. It means internecine feuding, frankly, of the worst possible kind. Waitakere City residents were pleased to get away from that; they identify as west Aucklanders with Waitakere as an entity, and not so much with New Lynn, Henderson, or Massey. We do not want to get the worst features of the old system back again, and there is further work needed to make sure that the numbers are contained so that we have genuine communities of interest, with enough cohesion and power to have an upwards say to the Auckland Council. That is the scale issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe second issue is empowerment. It is one thing to draw a diagram and say that this is how we will make policy, and that is as simple as we have it. It has a few spider legs on it. It is another thing to give local boards the resources and the critical mass to carry it out. It remains the case that even after the moderation of this ghastly provision, local boards are still completely captive because they cannot raise a rate. They cannot even put a differential rate on without the Auckland City Council\u2019s approval. An activist local board such as New Lynn, my own dear town, would not have the scale, nor would it have the resources nor the political clout to mount a project of the nature of the New Lynn rail undergrounding and civic transformation. That is costing $300 million and it could not be done under this model. That is the key example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002286357bdede624732919f5a26190d0722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286357bdede624732919f5a26190d0722\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have just a couple of points that I want to take up. Firstly, I want to finish the point I was making in my previous intervention about the huge costs of the Auckland restructuring. The interesting point is that we are told that the costs, according to the royal commission, are expected to be about $140 million. We have not been told where this money is coming from. The savings are predicted to be 2.5 to 3.5 percent. I also want to mention that academic papers have been written about the international experience of local government amalgamation. It has been found that almost always huge savings have been predicted, but they have not come about. For example, in South Australia the authorities promised savings of 17.4 percent, but achieved savings of a mere 2.3 percent only. We have been promised savings of only 2.5 percent in Auckland, but maybe, based on overseas experience, there will be no savings at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the Government has barely mentioned\u2014in fact, I do not think I have heard any Government members mention\u2014that there will be any savings to the ratepayer as a result of this extraordinary amalgamation, this disruption, this wiping out of very effective local councils and their replacement with tiny little local boards. Barely anyone has mentioned that there will be savings. Obviously, the answer is that there will not be savings. Indeed, there will be huge costs, and those costs will be picked up as a liability by Auckland ratepayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the international studies have discussed is forced amalgamations. In my definition this is a forced amalgamation, because the people of Auckland never got to vote on it. There was an issue in Christchurch as to whether Akaroa should merge with Christchurch. The people there had a proper debate\u2014an intense debate\u2014a poll, a vote, and a referendum. It was won, and everyone accepted the amalgamation. People accepted it because they voted for it. But in Auckland people have never had the opportunity to vote on the issue; therefore it fits the definition of a forced amalgamation. The international experience of forced amalgamations is that far from reducing parochialism, which amalgamation is allegedly intended to do, there is so much simmering resentment in the community about the forced amalgamation that all that results is more parochialism and more resentment. I predict, as Mayor Williams has done, that this is what will happen. We will get even more parochialism and resentment once the communities realise how limited their local boards\u2019 powers are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe second thing that I want to mention is that it is not just the number of local boards that makes them impotent but the fact that there are to be only four to nine members on those boards. I have an amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 53 in my name that says there should be a minimum of 11 members on local boards. I agree with Phil Twyford, who said there should be 14 to 17 members\u2014that is certainly a reasonable number. But to have four to nine members on local boards is ridiculous. If we have four to nine members, that will mean the smaller councils\u2014for example, on Waiheke\u2014would be likely to have only four members. A gang of four could be running Waiheke. Having four people on a local board would give it no credibility. That is ridiculous. The boards will not have the ability to do place-shaping and to do local representation, if there are only four to nine members. I have an amendment, which I hope the Government will support, to increase the size of boards to a minimum of 11 members. I think most community boards have 11 or 12 members, so to get down to having four to nine members on local boards is ridiculous. We would ask the Government to please reconsider that, because we will not have genuine local boards and local grassroots democracy with a mere four to nine members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we need to remember\u2014and I am glad that my colleague Roger Douglas has come into the Chamber, and I want to support very strongly Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment about preventing the sale of the $28 billion of assets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022847a80413f9447faa1217acf2d099a9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022847a80413f9447faa1217acf2d099a9c\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would take a call because I want to touch on the whole issue of community boards. As I listen to this debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, the real worry I have is that the debate is all about structure, and not about function. Actual structure follows function, and not the other way round. That point has been missed, particularly by the members of the Labour Party. It was really a problem for the royal commission, which tended to focus only on structure, and I think that is why in the end we got a rather poor report. That is why the mayor and the councillors spent the whole duration of the royal commission process seeking to protect their own territory while continuing to spend more money and to increase our rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that any determination of the appropriate structure of local government must, as I said, flow from functions rather than from structure. The first thing we need to determine is what issues or functions will be delegated by central government to local government, and, having decided that, it will tend to determine the nature or the structure of local government. The principle that should underline the structure of local government is that those most affected by councils\u2019 decisions must have the capacity to voice their opinion. That is why I favour closer to 30 local boards, as opposed to 20 local boards. They should have the capacity to voice their opinion. The principle is commonly known as subsidiarity: the idea that matters ought to be dealt with by the least centralised but most competent authority we have. For decisions over things like food, we do it ourselves, but when it comes to a local library and a local swimming pool it should be done by local people. The number of community boards, set at 20 to 30 in this bill, is a move in the right direction. I personally favour 30 over 20. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003ECommunity boards should be small enough\u2014and this is the point not argued particularly well by Labour\u2014to represent genuine communities and not just be more bureaucratic structures. Labour has this afternoon suggested more and more bureaucratic structures, whereas if we get back to the community, we will have genuine communities of interest rather than those advocated by the royal commission. In Manukau, where I come from, there are at least six and probably seven genuine communities of interest: Botany; Pakuranga; Howick; Manurewa, whose community board is probably bigger than almost 90 percent of local governments in New Zealand; \u014Ctara and Papatoetoe, which are probably two communities, but possibly one; M\u0101ngere; and the rural area surrounding Clevedon. These are genuine communities of interest, and they would all be able to make better decisions than the old Manukau City Council did. That is why I push for 30 boards rather than 20 boards\u2014in Manukau there are at least six communities, and probably seven. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EThe big thing that we must do, and the thing that we have not done, is ensure that structure follows function. We have not been doing that. If we think about local government, we see that a lot of things will be done at the regional level, and are best able to be done at the regional level, but a huge number of functions of local government can be best carried out by local people in their own communities. Therefore, I congratulate the Government and the Minister of Local Government on moving from 20 to 30 community boards as opposed to the seven or eight that the royal commission suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022217b33af76824cb8b0f7455f0625d087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022217b33af76824cb8b0f7455f0625d087\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go back to something Mr Carter said earlier, and that was with regard to what Labour stands for. Mr Carter was questioning whether Labour knows what it stands for. I found that kind of ironic, given that Steve Chadwick has just talked about the fact that Labour stands for looking for the social, cultural, and economic benefits of Auckland City, rather than just the economic benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI think that what this bill has brought to light, if people have not already realised it, is that National\u2019s priorities have not changed. They have not changed at all, and that is something I want to speak about a little bit before I get on to the local boards. Early in the piece, when a public consultation meeting was held in the Mt Roskill electorate, National decided that it would get out there and consult, even though many of the decisions had already been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENational had one of those meetings in Mt Roskill, and given that I live in Mt Roskill I thought after dinner that I would walk up to the meeting and see what the National members of Parliament had to say and the way in which they listened to the local residents. I went there knowing that Jackie Blue would be there. Unfortunately, although Jackie Blue is the National member working in Mt Roskill, she did not really talk. I think she just said hello at the beginning, and then John Carter took over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI found the meeting really interesting, and I gained quite an insight that night. I did not know any of the people at that meeting, and I sat there listening to what they had to say. I was pleasantly surprised that everything they had to say with regard to the concerns they had was aligned with everything Labour was pushing for. Members on this side of the Chamber cannot be criticised for not listening, because the things we have been pushing for are evident in the submissions that have been made and the concerns that have been expressed in all the public community meetings\u2014not just the ones held by Labour but the ones held by National. I can attest to that because I attended one of them, and it made the whole issue of priorities spring to light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe are seeing a return to National\u2019s traditional agenda. Unfortunately, it has always been there, but it is has not been as overt as some might need it to be in order to be able to see it. One thing that does concern me\u2014and we can see this; it is quite blatant\u2014is that the National-ACT candidate for mayor of the super-city is John Banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the big issues that has been raised as we have moved round Auckland City has been the concern about the sale of public assets. I congratulate my colleague Phil Twyford on the Not Yours to Sell campaign he has been running. It is something that a lot of people have picked up on. It is a very real concern. The National Government can go out there and say it has no intention of selling public assets, or it can go out there and be very quiet about it, but we know that National\u2019s No. 1 person\u2014and ACT\u2019s No. 1 person\u2014who is running for mayor, John Banks, is renowned for his reputation with regard to the selling of public assets. So selling public assets is obviously high on the agenda for National and ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne issue that has been raised across Auckland, especially in Manukau, is the fact that some areas of the Auckland region have held on to their public assets. Manukau has made a lot of revenue from the public assets the council held on to and chose not to sell. So when we discuss the details of this bill it is very important that we look at the underlying agenda. The underlying agenda is that National\u2019s priorities have not changed since the 1990s. National still wants to sell our public assets at every opportunity, and its agenda is epitomised by the fact that someone like John Banks is its No. 1 person and is standing as the National/ACT candidate for mayor of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will just touch on the matter of the matter of the size and number of the local boards. The royal commission proposed six councils, roughly modelled on the existing councils. We have all the facilities there. It would be a complete waste to see those go. The Government then announced it wanted 20 to 30 community boards. We have argued for fewer boards than the Government proposes, to enable them to be large enough to be viable and influential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u002214a876e3ee7e49e6aa7a6ba66ea8d60a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a876e3ee7e49e6aa7a6ba66ea8d60a\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to rise and take the call on this very important bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, including my colleague Nikki Kaye, have collectively spent thousands of hours listening to the people of Greater Auckland on this very important matter\u2014this hugely important matter\u2014under the esteemed leadership of the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter. We have listened carefully and responded thoughtfully. A wide range of views have been expressed. As the Prime Minister has stated, the aim of this exercise is to allow Auckland to think regionally, plan strategically, and act decisively\u2014a feeling probably completely foreign to members on the other side of the Chamber. Just as in days gone by the performance of the Auckland rugby team was held to presage a fearsomely competitive All Black pack, so in the future we believe that a strong, vibrant Auckland City, nurturing its diverse inhabitants and encouraging them to reach their full potential, will result in a New Zealand\u2014our nation\u2014able to do the same on the global stage. If we get it right in Epsom, if we get it right in Manurewa, if we get it right in Auckland, we get it right for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI personally do not agree with W Somerset Maugham, who said that in great cities men are like a lot of stones thrown together in a bag: their jagged corners are rubbed off until in the end they are as smooth as marbles. The decision to have 20 or 30 local boards means that the different and diverse communities in Auckland, which make up Greater Auckland, will be recognised and the communities of interest will be supported. We had a very erudite contribution from Sir Roger, who talked about the bedrock of the European Union: the concept of subsidiarity. A community of interest could potentially be 100,000 people in Auckland, as my honourable friend pointed out, or it could be 50,000. Its structures will be determined by the Local Government Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EFew folk in this Chamber or, I am sure, in Auckland or New Zealand have not heard of Sir John Logan Campbell, the founder of Auckland, whose gift to the people of Auckland\u2014Cornwall Park, in the vibrant electorate of Epsom\u2014is enjoyed by thousands of people from all the cities across the Auckland isthmus to this day. Sir Dove-Myer Robinson\u2019s vision was greater than that of his fellow councillors at the time, and we are very grateful for the cleanliness of our beaches, which is largely down to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWhat, then, is the background to this Greater Auckland issue? The reality is that the problems with the governance of Auckland have been recognised for years. The indolent, unlamented, lackadaisical, late Labour administration sat on its hands for almost 9 years, then set up a royal commission. [Interruption] How long was it? It was 9 years. Then it set up a royal commission. We were challenged by the royal commission to make the changes needed in time for elections a little over a year from now. Hence the need for urgency. We are on track; we are on time; we are delivering for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EThe report of the royal commission was not the only thing that made known the need to reform local government in Auckland, and this is what makes Labour\u2019s dilatoriness and indolence so hard to understand. Auckland\u2019s future has been debated for decades. Michael Joseph Savage, whose name may be known to members opposite, stood on a one-council policy in 1919. Why do they not dredge through some old copies of Hansard and get some inspiration for the future? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u002257d869f5200a4f72b60fd0f296038100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257d869f5200a4f72b60fd0f296038100\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E That contribution from Cam Calder was the worst I have heard in this Committee, and I blame the Minister in the chair, Hon John Carter. Where are the members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee? Where is Nikki Kaye? Where is the contribution from Simon Bridges? Where is the contribution from Tau Henare? Why are they being silenced in this Chamber? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ETo be fair, I acknowledge the Hon John Carter because, as the Associate Minister of Local Government, he was a good chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. He was welcoming of the public and he was very positive. In fact, as the themes from the submitters became prominent, he began to raise the expectations of the community. One of the very first things that the Hon John Carter said was \u201CWe will empower boards.\u201D That was the very first thing, and overwhelmingly, as we listened to submissions from the four corners of the Auckland region, that was one of the things of concern that was raised. As I listened to John Carter chair those meetings, I wondered why National did not appoint him as the Minister of Local Government. Why is that? He should have been the Minister but, alas, as the Associate Minister his strings are being pulled by the Minister, Mr Rodney Hide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EIn the submissions advocated by various representatives from the community, they were generally quite concerned about the initial Government proposal regarding local boards. After the royal commission had conducted its work, it recommended that there be six local boards that basically follow the boundaries of the existing main cities in Auckland. The Government\u2019s response was 20 to 30 boards. It sent that out for public consultation, and that was it. Labour argued in its proposal for local boards that are large enough to have some influence but small enough still to be able to represent our various communities. Many of the communities that made submissions raised concerns about the powers to be clarified. They wanted powers to be identified in the legislation. They wanted funding to be put in the legislation. In fact, I recall one submitter even recommended that each local board be given $5 million per year to conduct their affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThere were issues raised about staffing as to how these local boards would be able to deliver their roles and organise their functions. Of course, that is a significant issue because there are about 6,000 staff throughout the Auckland region who work for local government. But there has been so much uncertainty about this particular process, and there is so much rush and hastiness, that everybody is afraid and morale is low. I suspect if we are unable to provide some guarantee to the 6,000-plus staff for the next 2 years or 3 years, many of them will leave. They will leave for overseas or for other jobs. Yet we have not yet completed this work. We have not yet identified the boundaries because the staffing will be determined on the basis of how big or small those particular boards will be. If we do not have sufficient staffing, it means that local boards will be competing for somebody to take the minutes, to look after the parks, or to put up a proposal on their planning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EPeople were also concerned about assets. They wanted local boards to be able to have control of some of their community assets\u2014things like libraries and swimming pools. Social services is another area where people raised their concerns. They wanted to know about the art and community projects that are currently being delivered in M\u0101ngere and throughout the city. The problem in the Government\u2019s proposal is that the local boards are still subservient to the local council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022dae343a69f6b43ad93b744453cb9e7a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dae343a69f6b43ad93b744453cb9e7a6\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make the point that it is very clear from the speeches coming from the other side that Labour members have not read the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Another point I want to make is specifically around the powers of the local boards. There is a clear principle in the legislation that decisions will be made at the lowest possible level, except for some exceptions. Another point that I pick up on, which the previous speaker, Su\u2019a William Sio, raised, is around the issue of staff and support. In the legislation it is also very clear that local boards will have to be adequately and fully resourced. They will not be able to employ staff, but they will have to have enough staff to support the activities for their community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EAnother point that I want to raise is specifically around an issue raised during the select committee process. We heard about Phil Twyford going around communities spreading the threat of Armageddon, telling the arts community that they would not have funding. But I want to make a very clear point that I ask Labour to listen to. Within the legislation there is a very clear principle\u2014and this is backed up in the local government legislation\u2014around the promotion of social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of the community. It is very clear; it is within the legislation. Any assertion to the contrary is absolutely wrong. Another point that I want to make very clear is that when Mr Twyford went around those communities, he also went on about at-large councillors, saying we cannot expect them to float around the community without a constituency. There was a hilarious moment in the select committee process when someone yelled to him: \u201CHey, Phil, aren\u2019t you a list MP?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI say that the community did speak very loudly and very clearly on this issue. As a result it became another area where this Government can say it has listened, and we no longer have at-large councillors. The other point that has been made consistently today has been around funding. I do not think that any speakers have really talked about this. Again, I raise this particular issue with Labour because I do not think the members have read the legislation. The funding provisions in the legislation have the power to really empower certain communities within Auckland. There are issues in Auckland in terms of certain minority groups. We know there are issues in South Auckland. I draw members\u2019 attention to this provision within the legislation. I asked Len Brown about those issues when he came to the select committee. I said to him that some people have said that they want one unitary authority to come to Auckland, for the reason that maybe there will be communities within South Auckland that will finally get the school pools that they want and that they really deserve in their communities. The principle within the legislation is that the funding formula must take into account socio-economic conditions. Mr Brown turned to me and said: \u201CNikki, you know what, that is the great white hope of this legislation.\u201D The great white hope is that finally communities in Auckland will be able to have some equality in terms of services. Members on the opposite side are very quiet, because they are voting against a bill that will not only deliver the infrastructure for Auckland and strong local entities for the communities across Auckland but also potentially help some of the poorer people in Auckland. Members on the opposite side have not addressed that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe last and final point that I want to make that Labour needs to understand is that, on the question of the number of local boards\u2014and they need to stand up and really address this point\u2014Labour has slipped from 14 all the way to 20. National said there should be 20 to 30 local boards. What is the difference between our 20 and Labour\u2019s 20? Potentially, nothing. So we may actually agree on the number of local boards. In response to the arguments that have been raised about communities being cut up, all I say is that there will be a process in terms of the Local Government Commission. It will be up to the commission to define what a community of interest is. But I ask Mr Hawkins about saving Papakura with 14 local boards. I do not think so. Labour is supporting a provision that would mean that Papakura would not have a local board. The members on the opposite side know that, and there are members in constituency seats who are looking very worried right now. They have backed themselves into a corner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, we are delivering legislation for Auckland that is historic, that will finally deliver some equity to local communities, and that will finally give them decent local representation. I am proud to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u002248e2bc4dcd68473983afdcb13d8847f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248e2bc4dcd68473983afdcb13d8847f9\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That speech from Nikki Kaye was just appalling. She stood there and said that members on this side of the Chamber have not read the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill and we do not understand it. Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d6ec9c889f2418b8c35e4b35fee9084\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Arrogant!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c58a8b6190d4dd7b4dab2083e8f6b8b\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: It is arrogant; I take that point. But, also, in saying that to us Nikki Kaye was saying it to almost every Aucklander who shares this view. I tell this Committee that there is more common sense on that Table with those Supplementary Order Papers then there is in this bill. There is more proof of listening to the people of Auckland on that Table then there is in this bill. What is on that Table? Are there any Supplementary Order Papers from National? Is there any last-minute document that says \u201CGosh, maybe we are wrong.\u201D? No. National has said that it has given us the trophy; it has said it accepted the at-large issue. It has managed to bring in this legislation, and it will give a lot of power to communities by creating 30 small boards with very little. Those boards will be competing, as my friend William Sio said, not only for funding but also for the ability to run their campaigns. The funding will not be there for all those organisations. As, I think, David Cunliffe said before me, we will get back to the old days of patch protection, which will not bring Auckland forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI want to talk about some of the really good submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. This council should truly represent Auckland\u2014Greater Auckland\u2019s interest\u2014which we know it does not. Labour looks forward to the Government supporting amendments such as having a Pacific Advisory Board. If I look at my community of Waitakere, I see that there is a Pacific advisory board at the Waitakere City Council as well as an ethnic advisory board and a youth council. That progress happens in a city like Waitakere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI hope that we do not have John Banks as mayor, and I am pretty confident that we will not. Can members imagine a city of the future under John Banks? It would be Gotham City. It would be a shocker. Can members imagine it? It would be terrible. Where would the input of local communities be under a mayor with those supreme powers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45ef6ac84a242fbb88803fd740f6a16\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I was talking about something that many members on this side of the Chamber are aware of, and I think we can see members on the other side are starting to see some merit in it: the ineffectiveness of these local boards under the current proposal. It is not too late for the Government to take heed of what not only members on this side of the Chamber are saying, but also what the Greens have said consistently, and to ensure that there is real representation. We know that if representation is disjointed or is across a number of boards then it will not be effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EAs I said before, if we look at the myriad of different schemes and innovations that go on across a city\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022261fe56815914fc2903f3b59d0c2a986\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Name two!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a62e58ea73b4b728d26104938235616\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: In Waitakere, there is EcoMatters Environment Trust, Project Twin Streams, and Plunket\u2019s Trees for Babies. I could go on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1b548ecb5d489aaa17dbf31f71211a\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Stop showing off!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a26a39245d324d2db7cec33a1c69914a\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member does not have those schemes\u2014Christchurch is not quite that innovative\u2014but in Waitakere we certainly do. All of those schemes will be at risk because under a lot of boards that will be competing for the dollar\u2014that is what it will be like\u2014and for services, we will not see those really important projects continue to grow and thrive as they have so much in Waitakere City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThe other thing I touched on, and would like to talk about again, is having a Pacific Advisory Board, an Auckland Youth Council, and, of course, an Asian Advisory Board as part of the council. I commend my colleagues who have tabled Supplementary Order Papers, which, as I said before, are far more constructive than anything I have seen in the bill. Having those boards would mean real democracy at grassroots and would be supported, I hope, by every member in this Chamber. I know that many of my colleagues have spoken about those boards before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EEffectively, so much is missing from this bill. As we have always said, if the topic of this bill had gone to a referendum, if the Government had brought Aucklanders with it, then it would not have the debacle we see now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022e270c3bc7e41490883f8b199db731304\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e270c3bc7e41490883f8b199db731304\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will continue with the comments I was making earlier about local boards. I am sorry that the member for Auckland Central, Nikki Kaye, is not here to be part of this discussion, because I know how important the subject is for her. Perhaps someone could send her a message. We talked about the number of local boards before and I set out Labour\u2019s thinking about why we are proposing in our amendment that there should be a number within a range of 14 to 20 local boards. But the question of their powers is also perhaps one of the most important, one of the most tricky, and one of the most complicated elements in the entire super-city model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe heard much trumpeting from the Government members that they have listened to public opinion and have decided to fully empower the boards. Let me describe what we actually have here. We have local boards that have no legal status\u2014no legal personality. They have no staff, they have no property, they have no ability to levy rates, they have no service delivery function, and they have no regulatory function. They do not even have the ability to paint a yellow line along the side of the road. Two key areas of local government are the provision of water and the operation of our transport system; neither water nor transport will go anywhere near the local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThese local boards will have a budget that they will have to bid for on an annual basis in an annual budget round as part of the unitary authority. They will have delegated powers. The board sets out a process and a number of principles that require the unitary authority, the Auckland Council, to delegate certain things downwards, but there are important qualifiers on those delegations. If, the analysis says, these certain activities or decision-making functions are best carried out on a regional basis or have an impact that goes beyond the local area that the board represents, then those powers will be kept upstairs, in the Auckland Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELocal boards have the ability to propose by-laws, but when we put all of those elements together, it is very clear that this is an extremely constrained exercise of decision-making power by these boards. Let me repeat that they have no legal status, no staff, no property, and no ability to exercise any kind of regulatory function, and they have no engagement with transport or water. They have delegated powers within a fairly heavily prescribed set of principles under the legislation, but they may not, or will not, make decisions on matters that go beyond their geographic area, and they will not make decisions if those matters are better dealt with by using a cost-benefit analysis on a regional basis. Whichever way we slice it, I say to members, this is a very, very constrained model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI believe that the jury is still out. I am not saying that the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and the Government have not made a genuine attempt to design a package of powers that would work. But I am not sure. If I apply two tests to the powers in this bill, then I think the jury is still out. The first test is whether these boards will have sufficient clout\u2014whether they will have sufficient autonomy and decision-making power\u2014to really make a difference in their local communities in order to play the place-shaping role that we want them to play. The second test is whether these local boards are capable of adequately balancing the centralisation of powers that we are implementing and we are investing in the Auckland Council. That was a key principle that the royal commission set out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI believe that the jury is still out. The test will be in the eating, and if the Government has got this legislation wrong, then it will probably be the single biggest flaw in the super-city model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00221b45a2f5d404449f9621c1be36a717f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b45a2f5d404449f9621c1be36a717f6\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou. N\u014D reira e te Whare. We are talking this evening about local boards. \u201CDemocracy a pipe dream when all roads lead to Rome\u201D; let me just quote that headline, because I think it aptly sums up exactly where we are at when it comes to the issue of local boards and the powers that they will have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86cb32327a84b5d8ff71bf040d1b6a9\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Your printer\u2019s broken; you\u2019ve missed a bit out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b57965a202a4c7096b670012ff46f52\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not, I say to Mr Brownlee. The printer is exactly right. The article starts by saying: \u201CMaybe I\u2019m being excessively pessimistic, but it looks as though the proposed 20 to 30 local boards in the new Auckland Super City will be little more than part-pressure valves, part-whipping boys, for the Auckland Council proper.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6ccac20734416689485c66da79b13e\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531acfa757c047bba0a59bef08c3ac63\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have not finished yet. The article continues: \u201CThe parliamentary select committee has tried to paint a picture of busy little councils dotted around the region, happily governing their semi-autonomous fiefdoms, at arm\u2019s length from the sway of the emperor-mayor and his council. But wherever you look in their report, all roads inevitably lead back to Rome. Rome controls the purse strings. Rome can also overrule any local decision that contradicts regional policy.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThat is where we on this side of the Chamber\u2014the loyal Labour Opposition\u2014have a difference of opinion with the Government and its support parties. Why? Because we do not trust what might happen to those regions that do not have the economic clout or the voice to stand up for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2d99bfd028349e49aed82aa6054b129\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with Rome?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e4b66b47ca451ead09eae50968dc50\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait a bit, I say to Mr Henare. In my electorate I now represent people from both Manukau City and Auckland City. When I took over the Auckland part of the electorate, \u014Ct\u0101huhu, I learnt just how differently councils treat their most vulnerable people. We had free swimming pools in Manukau City, and I was stunned to find that when I walked over the border into Auckland City and looked at \u014Ct\u0101huhu, I found it did not have a swimming pool, I say to Mr Hughes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220df3e3d3cd2f4e15876ccc599547ce92\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bcae692469d4a58a3026081c045637a\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It did not have a swimming pool. No, it did not. \u014Ct\u0101huhu did not have a swimming pool. That says to me that different councils treat their most vulnerable people differently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI worry about what will happen when Manukau City is swallowed up into the larger Auckland City. If Auckland City had treated its ratepayers in \u014Ct\u0101huhu in the way that Manukau City treated its ratepayers, then \u014Ct\u0101huhu would have had a swimming pool. I have heard the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Carter, make mention of this issue and say the boards will be able to do those sorts of things. But we on this side of the Chamber are worried about that, because how much power will the local boards really have? I cannot hear Mr Carter; I ask him to say it again. How much power is there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe92a1d39ced4fee8b7358a555c3fa89\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Heaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e20edfe4c248b4b75ec9c2607e4bda\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: He tells me that it is heaps. I will hold Mr Carter to that statement that the boards will have heaps of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2a3cde299f45278317c7959c20b673\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member for Manukau East is making a very fine contribution, but he is being interjected on by Hone Harawira, who looks very comfortable there on the National Government front bench. He looks as though he is pretty keen to be there, but I think that he has moved from his seat for the purposes of interjecting right across on Mr Robertson. I think, notwithstanding Tau Henare\u2019s new home, that that is just not fair on Mr Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022825374d1a4b7449d9bcd03fc21061372\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ed2469700044c5a2fc017c825b191c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any help with this matter. I thought that the interjections were rare, sometimes reasonable, and occasionally witty\u2014which is rare in this place\u2014and that Mr Robertson was making his point very well and even getting responses out of the Minister in the chair. I thought that the debate was moving along quite nicely. I invite Mr Robertson to continue with his fine oratory about the swimming pool in South Auckland. I am engrossed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220baa2cdbf6254d91a3a33f83739331ae\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I can remember sitting in the particular position where you are now, and I am grateful to the Hon Darren Hughes for raising the point of order to note that Mr Hone Harawira has moved in order to facilitate interjections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBut putting that aside, let us get back to the issue of the swimming pools, I say to Mr Carter, because that is where I, as a local member of Parliament, have a real concern. I have witnessed it firsthand. I have seen how the people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu are treated under the current Auckland City Council, and I can judge that. I have been a member of Parliament for 22 years now, with most of them spent in the Manukau East electorate, and I am still here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290f67d14786f4b788107a4dfa12cefac\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489a8543cc9743ada3456367271df6b8\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have vast experience, I say to Mr Brownlee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267fa3e12516b45249c54c037fa293695\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No way you\u2019ve been a member of Parliament that long!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ffd52f59fc4acda60aae74641fe28d\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014over the same length of time as Mr Williamson. We both came in together; it was a good vintage, that year. But in South Auckland we have a real concern over the issue of ratepayer funding for swimming pools, because \u014Ct\u0101huhu has been left out. It has been hung, drawn, and quartered. We led a protest march in \u014Ct\u0101huhu, the first in many, many years, and what happened? It was totally ignored. It was totally ignored by the Auckland City Council. If the council does that to \u014Ct\u0101huhu now, what will it do when it controls all of Auckland? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EWe have a real concern for the people whom we represent: the most vulnerable in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00224f95fd33a0094d6ba8e498be20812e01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f95fd33a0094d6ba8e498be20812e01\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk a little about local boards, but first I will acknowledge the chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, the Hon John Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aa060557e38485a81b2b8b78454c9a6\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister and the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295283b8c16b14930aa63b744d9c391d4\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Minister in the chair was also the chair of the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhen I was at the select committee\u2014and I thought it was rather sweet, really\u2014I heard John Carter saying, as the community organisations came through: \u201CIsn\u2019t it great? I didn\u2019t know all these neat community organisations existed in Auckland.\u201D The comment was genuine, I thought, and it was nice, but it was a bit ironic, because he had not worked out before he came to the select committee that that is what Auckland is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhen we sat through the select committee hearings one of the primary themes from locals was concern over the loss of their community identity, and there is an argument about whether the proposal from the Government deals with that\u2014and I would beg to differ. There is distrust of the powers of the central agency and the mayor, and there is also a real concern about local services. Quite frankly, I do not think that this bill deals with that. I have to acknowledge that some of the issues have been addressed, but only in part and not to the satisfaction of this Committee and not to the satisfaction of the local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe Government members from the North Shore\u2014the members who work over there\u2014need to be listening. I work on the North Shore as a Labour list MP, and I have been listening. What people are saying to me is that there is still a huge power imbalance between the local boards and the super-city council. Local boards with four to nine members will be up against a powerful central body\u2014with all the resources it gets\u2014that doles out largesse, if you like, when it feels like it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI have a huge concern about all the services that are being provided on the North Shore when an all-powerful central organisation is to decide what is good for the different communities of Auckland. The communities of Auckland are different, and the interesting thing about North Shore City is that it has a unique community coordination model. In fact, the Minister heard about that. The various community organisations, the mayor, and the council came along to the select committee and talked about that unique model, where coordinators are employed to build local community engagement and to tackle the particular issues in the areas they work in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe people are all different, too. People like to think that the people who live north of the Auckland Harbour Bridge are well off, rich, and all that sort of stuff, and that they are all the same, but they are not. Northcote and Beachhaven are very different from Glenfield. Glenfield on the North Shore is different from Albany and Greenhithe. They have different populations, different needs, and different requirements for services. The services that are provided by the North Shore City Council are extensive. They are expected and supported by the people of the North Shore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESo I cannot get my head around how the local boards will continue to deliver those extensive services when they will have to compete with each other for funding, when they will have to go begging to the Auckland Council for money, and when, even then, those local boards can have their decisions overridden. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThere are many outstanding questions about community services. What will happen to citizens advice bureaus? They are scattered throughout Auckland. What will happen to them? Will they be centrally resourced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb180824c1a74f72a3ac1c0ad470c0e0\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: You guys are the princes of scaremongering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e22fd5dcaff43cf9b491f78b8396cc8\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fair question, I say to Jo Goodhew, and it is a question that people are asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWill citizens advice bureaus be centrally resourced from the central agency? Will that agency decide where citizens advice bureaus should or should not be, or will it be up to local boards to decide? If it is up to local boards to decide, then how will they decide on the funding and allocation of resources? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat will happen to the housing for older people on the North Shore? There are 458 low-cost units there. Who do they belong to, and who decides what the need is? Do they belong to the central agency or to the local boards, of which there could be three, four, or five? How will they decide who gets what? What happens to the 11 community houses across the North Shore and to the staff who service them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ECommunity houses are extremely important organisations. People can just come along to them and use the various resources and educational courses that are facilitated by the community coordinators. What happens to those coordinators? Do they lose their jobs? Who knows? These are the questions that the people of the North Shore are asking. What happens to things like the Community Facility Development Fund and the Creative Communities fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002248ea4d5995a1418ab2da291c834eac67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248ea4d5995a1418ab2da291c834eac67\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call in this debate. I have heard so much rubbish being spoken on this issue in the last 24 hours by members on the Opposition benches that I jokingly said to George Hawkins as we crossed the bridge across to the Chamber this evening that if he gave a speech then I would certainly find something in it to criticise. But I did not have to wait until George Hawkins got to his feet, because I got the comment I wanted to hear as I walked in the door. As I walked in the door I heard Lynne Pillay finishing her speech. And how did she finish it off? I will tell members. She said that had the bill gone to a referendum, then there would not be the debacle we see now. Labour suggests that the Government should have put up the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill for a referendum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI will tell members of the Opposition about referendums. We have just had one, and those members have chosen to ignore the result. But I say to the people of New Zealand that one party is not ignoring the result of the referendum on the anti-smacking legislation. My next public meeting on the subject will be held next Monday in Waimakariri, in the Labour-held electorate of Clayton Cosgrove. There were 26,000 No votes, and Clayton wants to ignore them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet us move on to Ross Robertson. He is a fine member of Parliament; he is the member for Manukau East. I grew up in his electorate, and I know that the electorate holds Otahuhu College. What did Ross Robertson have to say? He said that the people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu have not got a swimming pool. He talked about the people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu being denied the most basic right of having a swimming pool. I wonder what Ross Robertson actually knows about his electorate, because I can tell him that the people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu have a swimming pool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228634dc3abbb45dabfd7849d87354e61\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the college one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4c3c465ae645b285f4f752228fbf9f\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: He is dismissing a 33-metre swimming pool at Otahuhu College that was dug by hand by the pupils of the college and their parents in the 1950s. That pool has been locked to the \u014Ct\u0101huhu community. Mr Robertson\u2019s Government was in power for 9 years. If he had wanted to make the pool available for the people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu, he could have done so. What an absolute waste to have a 33-metre, high-quality pool that is locked away and denied to the people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu. The member\u2019s Government, which was in power for 9 years, could have funded Otahuhu College to make its pool available to the public, and it did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EIt was a privilege to serve on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and it gave me an opportunity to meet members of the committee whom I had not had an opportunity to get to know very well in the 7 or 8 months I have been in Parliament. I was privileged to get to know Mr William Sio. I had not had much to do with Mr Sio before. I apologise to Mr Sio for this, but I was not aware that he is a former Deputy Mayor of Manukau City. He was the second-highest elected official in Manukau City. How did Mr Sio get to become the Deputy Mayor of Manukau City? Was it because of the reserve seats for Pacific Islanders? No, he won his seat fair and square in a head-to-head competition in the ward of \u014Ctara. Mr Sio can have pride in being elected a councillor for the \u014Ctara ward and then going on to be elected the Deputy Mayor of Manukau City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EMr Sio said this morning: \u201CThe Pacific communities throughout Auckland were prepared to put on hold their ambition to be included at the top table.\u201D Nothing more than that comment could better illustrate to me the folly of having dedicated M\u0101ori seats. Mr Sio said to Parliament that the Pacific communities throughout Auckland\u2014and I heard this morning that the Pacific community represents something like 12 or 13 percent of Aucklanders, and that Asians make up 13 percent of Auckland City\u2014were prepared to put on hold their ambition to be at the top table while specific M\u0101ori seats were allocated to Auckland City. I say to Mr Sio and every member of the House\u2014and members can call me glib if they like\u2014that we have an electoral system in New Zealand that is one person, one vote. Mr Sio won his council seat in \u014Ctara and went on to be elected the Deputy Mayor of Manukau City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI have heard Sam Lotu-Iiga being mentioned this afternoon, and he is in the Chamber. He is another Pacific Islander, and he was elected to the Auckland City Council for the ward of Maungakiekie. Mr Darren Hughes may not be aware of this, but the members of the select committee went out and heard evidence in Papatoetoe, in the heart of Manukau City, and we heard that there are three M\u0101ori councillors on Manukau City Council now. They were not reserve seats; they won their seats fair and square. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI tell Mr Hughes that we also heard that Manukau City councillors had the opportunity to provide for specific M\u0101ori seats under the existing legislation in New Zealand and that they chose not to\u2014just like the councillors for Waitakere chose not to. Now that the Auckland Council bill is going through, councillors who have previously voted against having M\u0101ori seats based on racial grounds are now saying that the Government should provide for them, when the provision has been there all along and they have chosen not to take it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI heard this afternoon about excluding M\u0101ori from the Auckland Council. That is utter rubbish. M\u0101ori are not excluded from the Auckland Council, in the same way that Pacific Islanders and Asians are not excluded from the Auckland Council. I also heard that the Government does not listen. That is the feedback we have had from the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e713724159104050a5eaf2eac1384984\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022547a821cc685420ea59de129bfc4f153\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Hughes, I say to you that had you come to the select committee hearings, then I think it is fair to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6318a00729419492cc3f52fd01bbfe\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I know the member has not been here very long, but on two occasions\u2014I ignored the first one\u2014he brought you into the debate. That is not correct, and I ask you to ask the member to refer to members by their names or to speak through the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022267d87345cbe4a8282e6ec51394f3da4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is correct; the member used the word \u201Cyou\u201D, but as I recall the sentence he started it by saying \u201CDarren Hughes, such and such, you\u2014\u201D, so I took the \u201Cyou\u201D to be connected directly to Mr Hughes. He did not reflect it on me, so I think the matter is in order. But the point the member makes is a good one; we have to refer to members in the third person. I invite John Boscawen to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae0d53d34d64071ad4272222eff215c\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN\u003C/span\u003E: I will conclude by saying that the overwhelming number of submissions the select committee heard rejected the idea of having councillors at large. I personally was supportive of the concept of having councillors at large. If I have a chance to talk on the subject, perhaps later this evening, I can put up some of the advantages of having councillors at large. The overwhelming number of people who made submissions to the select committee were against having councillors at large. The Government has listened to those submissions, and that is what is reflected in this legislation. We do not have councillors at large; we have councils being elected from wards of one member or multi-member wards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI also heard this afternoon that Auckland is rejecting the idea of the super-city. If members go out on to the streets of Auckland they will find that Aucklanders do not reject the idea of the super-city. They want one city, one mayor, and one rule book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI will conclude as I started. I have heard so much rubbish this afternoon from the opposite side of the House. There is overwhelming support in Auckland for the Auckland Council, and I have no doubt that it will be an outstanding success. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecb673ce64eb49e69e03fb9bd8aea03e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecb673ce64eb49e69e03fb9bd8aea03e\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will start by addressing Mr Boscawen and some of the points he put across just now. The overwhelming number of submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee supported M\u0101ori representation on the super-city council. Secondly, the simple reason people do not want the councillors at large that he supports is that people would have to be millionaires to run a campaign across Auckland. They would need $200,000 just to put out one pamphlet across Auckland. Nobody could afford that, and that is the reason why we support wards. We also need to make sure with representation that there are not more than two members in a multi-member ward, because otherwise the wards would be so big that only the privileged and the rich could run effectively. That is unfair and is not something that Aucklanders want. They totally rejected it in the submissions to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EI also want to speak about representation. The royal commission talked about six councils, for reasons of economy and to not disrupt the current structure too much. The current formula being put forward is for 20 to 30 local boards. The Minister of Local Government\u2019s colleague Roger Douglas talked about the need for form to follow function. I think everybody on this side of the Committee would agree. But we do not want to go back to what we had in 1988, which was a lot of very small, rather inefficient councils and local boards\u2014boroughs, as they were then\u2014making rules for people and not being able to be effective. They were expensive and they were not effective. Our proposal is for 14 to 20 local boards. That strikes the balance between communities of interest and efficiency and effectiveness. That is the proposal we should go with and it is what we have before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe Green Party mentioned the issue of cost. We believe that it will cost about $800 or more per ratepayer for these proposals to go through. We therefore want to get the formula right. We are asking people to pay for something that has been rushed through the House under urgency. I do not believe we have had enough time to consider the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. We have had a situation in the last few days where Rodney District was out or split, and now it is in. Dr Paul Hutchison has been talking about the area of his concern, which is down in Hunua. He is a very nice person but nobody listened to him; they listened to the Mayor of Rodney, though, because the Mayor of Rodney is a former ACT MP. Of course, she has a little more weight or pull power than Paul Hutchison and the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe believe that the bill has been rushed through. It has not been thought through in the way it should have been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bffc4b924bea4ea1a7f6a00325048b25\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: 2\u00BD years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e4b01b305144fb9c9a1b2c6ee663bb\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: It has not been 2\u00BD years; it has been 9 muddied, muddled, ad hoc months. We started off with the royal commission report, which was ignored. A pamphlet went to everybody in Auckland, telling them what the ACT Party and the National Party thought should happen without any reference to the royal commission. Then we finally had to come to a select committee, where 2,500 submitters gave almost identical submissions to what they gave to the royal commission. We are still making eleventh-hour changes to the bill as we go through, depending on where the wind blows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bec5a692b46c40288777ded40f92622e\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e503fb0c04de4e618e3fbaab176320f1\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014under urgency. It is rushed, ill-thought-through adhockery. This is not the way Auckland should be considered and planned for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ENikki was talking about something that was going to be historic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d335eaff13c94109a1bb1bf8e818b9a8\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253cad34d7aa848ddb35e321eeb67bd9a\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: Nikki Kaye\u2014I beg the member\u2019s pardon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002230321a04255c429285ad009485492813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230321a04255c429285ad009485492813\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to say three words to Her Majesty\u2019s loyal Opposition: \u201Chaters and wreckers\u201D. Do Opposition members remember the phrase \u201Chaters and wreckers\u201D? It came from the previous Prime Minister, Helen Clark. Why have Opposition members now come over all like marshmallows about M\u0101ori rights, Pacific Island people\u2019s rights, and Asian people\u2019s rights\u2014about \u201Crights\u201D this and \u201Crights\u201D that? It does not work and it does not wash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI turn to Mr Boscawen and make a point about what he said about M\u0101ori being elected to councils. In a way he is right, but in a way he is absolutely far from the truth\u2014and so, I might add, is the Labour Party. Not once has Labour grasped the issue of M\u0101ori representation. It is not just about getting a dark horse or a dark face on the council\u2014someone who just happens to have M\u0101ori genealogy. It is not about that at all; it is about being able to stand in an election on a M\u0101ori kaupapa, a M\u0101ori agenda. That is the real difference. Yes, I supported\u2014and I still support\u2014the M\u0101ori seat idea, based on that view. But because it is under a first-past-the-post system, I think we should have had M\u0101ori representation and M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EEverybody in this Committee knows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ede41d03d8641a696bedbf23839c109\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is he going to vote for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c063fe137c0e41d5a47304fe7834e5c0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Everybody in this Committee, apart from the person who just turned up from playcentre\u2014or is it Play School\u2014knows that this is a team effort. There is no \u201CI\u201D in team, and I am a team player. If I get outvoted, then that is that: the team wins. I will take one for the team. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI turn now to something that really worries me about the kaupapa we are talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d43cf40de6ea4848bd61670c2e036b90\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: The kaupapa of the Dirty Dog glasses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afceb74a699b4b65a5638a80269cd8ed\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes. Dirty Dog is New Zealand - made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EGeorge Hawkins is a doyenne and a longstanding supporter and member of the Labour Party. He was a Minister in the previous Government. He brought to the House an amendment that not even he would agree upon. He just threw it in. The amendment was to extend the boundaries to the south side of the Waikato River, right down to where it begins. That is what the amendment proposed, even though Mr Twyford told us he withdrew it. If that is the sort of research and skill base the Labour Party is relying on, then thank God National won the last election, with help from ACT, United Future, and the M\u0101ori Party. I guarantee that if we had had another 3 years of George Hawkins and his mates we would have been in dire straits. We would have been so far up the creek it would not have been funny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe new member for Mt Albert, David Shearer, who spoke earlier, still thinks he is in Basra, Kabul, or somewhere other than Mt Albert. The fact remains that the number of people in each ward will basically be commensurate with what we have now in some of our electorate seats. He bemoaned the fact that one person will have to look after the issues and aspirations of all those people. But it is OK for Parliament to have the same number\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002201260b0b4a8e4288ac280e3515e5c3cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201260b0b4a8e4288ac280e3515e5c3cf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a brief call or three in the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill and to follow on from the member of the tight five, Tau Henare, who has just resumed his seat. Tau Henare was a team player then and he is a team player now; it is just a different team. According to that member there was no \u201CI\u201D in Mauri Pacific and he struggled to find an \u201CI\u201D in the Alliance, but he has finally found an \u201CI\u201D in the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65779500bb2492ab141f8ab6ce0df97\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. There is an \u201CI\u201D in Mauri Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022345d54407cd34a98a68707c410d657e0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; that is a debating point. We are not here to correct people\u2019s spelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e77275749ba4679b44555ef14d2acf8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The alphabetically challenged waka jumper has gone from Dirty Dog to lapdog. In the good old days when he was young, strong, and full of testosterone, he would not have lain down and let the National Party bulldoze and roll over the top of him like he has here. He would not have been a member like Nikki Kaye, who said about trees \u201COh, it\u2019s so awful; I\u2019ve talked to the Minister about it.\u201D He would have simply crossed the floor of the Chamber, like the good old days. But, no, the Dirty Dog has become a lapdog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd375abc5da4d74906fbaa037b352c7\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: From Dirty Dog to lapdog!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d23226636344ada86ebd0c3bd228a98\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Dirty Dog is a lapdog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aaa878afbc1432fb83055ec6a562f68\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Get that man a mirror!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491ef2af2cf04869afa617736de2bdaa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I see that Mr Lotu-Iiga has vocalised, and that is a wonderful thing to see. It is wonderful to have both of those members in the Chamber today. It is wonderful to have both the councillor and the member of Parliament in the Chamber. He is uniquely qualified to talk about the rearrangement of the Auckland City Council because that is what he does for a living\u2014he plays musical chairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn all seriousness now, the issue at the heart of this part of the debate is how many local boards should there be. The royal commission said six, the National Government says 30, and Labour says something in the middle\u201415 to 20. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d18e39616df41ecb89e07817b846bc5\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: No, we said around 20 to 30, and Labour believed it should be 20.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c9a7db637c46a48b2be5d082c1b71f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: With her customary precision, Nikki Kaye says around about 20 to 30. All right, that is fine. I was trying to be kind and point out that there is a trade-off. On the one hand, we have lower cost. That is the Rodney Hide view, the Countdown view, the cut-cost, cut-price view. It is a minimalist view of the State to have half a dozen boards and pay them nothing and get them to do nothing\u2014no rates, rubbish, or rats. That is it. On the other hand, National would have 30 boards, but until this debate I could not understand why the National Government would want to put the ratepayer to such an expense. I say to colleagues it has finally dawned on me that there are not enough life rafts for the members of the National caucus if they had only half a dozen councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhere is Mr Lotu-Iiga\u2019s triple dipper? It is in the community board for Eastern Bays. That will be where he heads next because his council seat is not safe and his parliamentary seat will probably by gone by the general election due to electoral reform. What about the man who campaigned for Te Atat\u016B, Tau Henare? The member for Te Atat\u016B, Chris Carter, is fine, but what about Tau Henare the waka jumper? The word is that Michael Jones will run for the National Party in Te Atat\u016B next time. Mr Henare cannot even get to the starters platform. What thanks is that from the National Government for being its lapdog? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285a2b4d4cd564c2396fcf22d51ed1f79\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: High Commissioner to Niue!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee86145eb3ce4488913b039a95ef424c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: He could be High Commissioner to Niue or the alderman on Te Atat\u016B\u2019s community board while Michael Jones runs for the seat of Te Atat\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI say \u201CKia ora\u201D to Nikki Kaye, who is a fine member. But Nikki Kaye is the hand-wringing apologist for the National Government in respect of the urban liberals of central Auckland. One of our number will probably become the MP for Auckland Central, and Nikki Kaye will be looking to the Western Bays community board for a job. There are not enough lifeboats for the Government\u2019s hapless members who are staring down the barrel of imminent electoral defeat. So, to be absolutely sure, the Government has decided on 30 community boards, because there has to be room somewhere for the whole caucus, and the other four members of the tight five. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00222ecdc8f279f84e9e8ce9afaf8411125f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ecdc8f279f84e9e8ce9afaf8411125f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E If we have ever had an example of why this debate is turning into a disappointment, it was the contribution by the previous speaker, the Hon David Cunliffe. One of the things that I had hoped would happen in this debate, given we had a time limit of 16 hours, was that the Opposition would want to set out very clearly its direction, its policies, and what it hoped to achieve for Auckland. But the contribution from the previous speaker is just an example of why the Labour Party is 27 percent in the polls and going down. It is unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me just state, again, the direction that this Government is setting out for Auckland. I must say, in that regard, the Opposition agrees with this. The Government is looking to have an authority that looks after regional issues. The Opposition agrees. Indeed, I think everybody agrees, maybe with the exception of the Greens\u2014and I am not even sure about that now. Everyone understands that we need to have a structure that will address the regional matters that people want addressed. That is the first and most important point. It is the fundamental reason why we are making this change. Members talked about an amalgamation of local government, but actually this structure is not an amalgamation. I think it was Sue Kedgley who talked about amalgamation. This is not an amalgamation in the sense of the amalgamations of putting local authorities together. We are changing the structure. We are making sure there is clarity in the ability of the unitary authority to have regional decision-making on those matters that concern Aucklanders\u2014transport, water, parks, and the environment. Those are the sorts of things that matter across the city and across the whole of the region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second thing that the Government is making sure will happen is that there is the opportunity for the local voice\u2014the local democracy\u2014to express itself. That is one thing, and, again, I have heard the Opposition say that as well. Su\u2019a William Sio made it very clear that one of the things that he heard in volumes was that people expected this Government to ensure that their local communities were empowered. We have done that. I want to make a couple of points in that regard, because when we started out we were thinking that we would prescribe in law the functions of the local boards; that we would give them lists of things that they could do. But as we listened to the submissions we realised that there was such a variety of things that communities wanted within their Auckland areas that we could not put them in a list, because we would miss something out. Something might be relevant for one local board but would not be pertinent or relevant for another. So the people of Auckland asked us for the ability to have flexibility to allow them to carry out the things that they want to do in their communities. So we have put into the bill the principle of subsidiarity. It is about functions. It is about the things that the community wants. Again, I have to say the members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, without exception, accepted that principle in general. I know that Sue Kedgley, particularly\u2014although Sue Bradford is more relaxed\u2014is still concerned about it. We accept that, but I say to Sue Kedgley that as we move forward we will be able to show her that it will work, but it will take some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe point I make is that it was important that we reflected that community voice and allowed those people to have their say. Alongside that, we knew that if all we did was give them the ability to make decisions, but did not allow them the financial ability to carry them out, we would fail. So the Auckland Transition Agency, as it moves forward\u2014once we know the local boards and we have heard the results from the Local Government Commission\u2014will then allocate a budget to the local boards. That will be set from then on in. As the new unitary authority sets its budget, so too will it prescribe that money for those local boards to carry out those functions. Let me just make it very clear that those functions that are prescribed by the Auckland Transition Agency cannot then be removed from the local boards, unless it is by agreement between the local boards and the unitary authority. It has to be by agreement. That is where we are going to put in place, in case of dispute, a dispute resolution system that will make sure that the unitary authority cannot overpower the local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ECertainly local boards have the ability to look at things on a regional basis. There is no question about that. We have made that very clear, and, of course, there will be some things that they will want to consider on a regional basis. Libraries are a classic example. Of course, each local board, or community, will want to have its library outlet so people will have access to their library. But it makes sense\u2014and, indeed, we have heard it from people who are far better versed in administering libraries than I am\u2014that we administer libraries on a regional basis. We cannot have them isolated, so that people are reading the same books. The whole purpose of having a Library Service is so there is an exchange. So there will be a regional policy basis for the libraries, but within that, each of the local boards will be able to make its own policy around how its library is run for its people. It will be a two-tier thing. They will work in conjunction and in unison with each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ERoss Robertson asked about swimming pools. There is no question that the unitary authority may well make a policy about swimming pools. I do not know; it may or it may not. But even if it does, it will be on a regional basis that will permit the local board that looks after the Manukau area, or whatever area it may be, to decide whether it wishes to continue with its policy of allowing its ratepayers to have free access to its swimming pools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f054586e47074fa5b98c31dfe62043e7\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What about \u014Ct\u0101huhu, John? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d599dc7842734aed8266379d0c2b6324\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, the unitary authority can take that matter up, I say to Ross Robertson, and create free swimming pool access, if that is what is happening, or the local board within the area can be provided with the funding to make it happen. That is the beauty of this system. We will allow those communities to make it happen. Even better than that, if for some reason the unitary authority says it cannot provide the funding, the local community can say it will provide a targeted rate and do it itself. So there is that flexibility as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBesides that, the next thing we need to do is to make sure that those facilities can be serviced, and we are making sure that happens, as well. The Auckland Transition Agency is putting in place a structure so that there is service delivery. To me, to the select committee, and, most important, to the people of Auckland, the most fundamental thing was to get the local board, the local democracy, and the local voice right. We have gone a long way towards answering the questions that the people of Auckland asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIndeed, I have to say that the Opposition, in the main, agrees with the principles. We might argue about whether there are 20 or 30 local boards, or 14 or 20, but actually it is a moot point. The point is that the Opposition is saying that we have all these 20 or 30 boards, and they have theirs defined down to 14 or 20. Well, I say that there does not seem to me to be a hell of a lot of difference, in the sense that we will give the Local Government Commission the scope to go out there and ask the people of Auckland what structure they think best represents them. That is why we have made it flexible. We have said there will be 20 or 30 boards generally, so that there can even be some tolerance one way or another, if it is needed. That is the point. We are ensuring that the local voice will prevail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAlongside that I make one other point about the wards. I know the Opposition is concerned about the multiple wards and the function of the unitary councillors. Let us not forget that their purpose is to look after regional matters. Their whole purpose is to worry about things at a regional level and not at the local level. Sure there will be an exchange; there is no question about that. But their primary function is to make sure that the region functions in a way that it should, and in such a way that makes the region efficient and makes the city the world-class city that we know Auckland can be. At last there will be an opportunity for people to come together and deal with things on a unified basis across the city that for so long have held back the opportunities that Aucklanders have been looking for, and that New Zealand needs Auckland to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAlthough we can sit here and debate the little bits and pieces, and although there is still a lot of work to do, and although we will absolutely concede that, as the Greens and the Opposition keep saying, we have not got it all together\u2014and that is absolutely true; it is a work in progress\u2014we will continue developing it as we move forward. The only way we could make it happen was to do it in stages. It was not possible to come up with one big package all at once. We would have got that badly wrong. We are working our way through. The likes of George Hawkins and others will actually help and assist us as we move it forward, and we respect them for that, as well. We appreciate the contribution that has been made generally. This bill is moving a good way forward, and we will make good progress on it as we pass it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4e3367febcb40a3b27c85331b5288bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4e3367febcb40a3b27c85331b5288bc\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I take just a moment to offer a Green Party perspective on some of the amendments that members of parties other than ours have put forward on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill that is before us tonight. First I thank Hone Harawira and the Maori Party for their series of amendments relating to the provisions for guaranteed M\u0101ori representation on the new Auckland Council. We will support all of Mr Harawira\u2019s amendments, as we agree that there should be mana whenua representation from Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua and Tainui, and also that there should be a M\u0101ori seat or seats on the council, elected by all M\u0101ori in Auckland who are eligible to vote. Those are both amendments that Mr Harawira has put up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn a similar vein, we also support Mita Ririnui\u2019s amendment aimed at ensuring the new council will include M\u0101ori members elected in proportion to the number of M\u0101ori in Auckland on the M\u0101ori electoral roll. I realise that it is, in one sense, contradictory to support all of the M\u0101ori Party and Labour Party options, but fundamentally, as I am sure all members are well aware by now, the Green Party is committed to the principle that this bill should include M\u0101ori seats in some form that is acceptable to tangata whenua, and particularly to mana whenua, however it is achieved. I am deeply regretful that National continues to oppose any version of M\u0101ori representation at the core council level\u2014or at the community board level, for that matter\u2014and this is one of the principal grounds on which we will continue to oppose this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will likewise vote for an amendment from Phil Twyford that seeks to change the bill to ensure that there is a review of the legislation in 5 years. This is an interesting amendment given the significance of the changes that are being made. Mr Twyford seems to be the first person to have thought that perhaps there should be some kind of review process at some point, and I thank him for putting that amendment forward. Although I am not sure that a select committee is the ideal mechanism by which to carry out such a review, at least it has the benefit of participation from across the political spectrum and of public involvement through a submission process. We will support it accordingly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThen we come to a number of amendments from Labour members relating to the establishment of three different advisory bodies. Su\u2019a William Sio seeks to set up a Pacific Advisory Board aimed at representing the views of Pacific Island peoples on the new council, and Raymond Huo aims to do the same thing with an Asian Advisory Board. These amendments meet the requests of a number of submitters to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee from both the Pacific Island and Asian communities, which were backed, I might say, by people from both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 communities who were all very well aware of the large Asian and Pacific Island population we have in Auckland. We agree it is important that the voice and interests of Pacific and Asian peoples and communities are clearly and well represented on the Auckland Council, and we will vote to support both of those supplementary order papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ELikewise, with Jacinda Ardern\u2019s amendment aimed at establishing an Auckland Youth Council and territorial youth forums, the Green Party will support this bid to ensure young people are consulted at both council and local board level. As Ms Ardern notes, people aged under 25 make up 37 percent of our population in Auckland, and I share her concern that the voice of youth will not be adequately represented at either level of council without some mechanisms that guarantee their participation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnother amendment that the Green Party wholeheartedly endorses is Mr Twyford\u2019s move to restrict the sale or privatisation of Auckland\u2019s local body assets. One of the biggest risks in this whole process is that what is in fact going on is a structural preparation of Auckland\u2019s infrastructure in a way that will facilitate selling off assets once the right team\u2014and I use the term \u201Cright\u201D advisedly\u2014manages to take control of the city, whether sooner or later. We do not want to see airport shares, public housing, water services, stadiums, parks, libraries, community halls, swimming pools, or anything else hocked off into private ownership. Between them, the current Auckland councils hold a huge number of assets. It is critical that we do everything we can to restrict, hinder, delay, and put off any possible privatisation. Mr Twyford\u2019s requirement that there be a referendum under the Local Government Act before any sale takes place is one way of beginning to achieve that goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to once again invite members to support the four Green Party amendments that lie on the Table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u002225995e2bfc9b45369b094d251fe474f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225995e2bfc9b45369b094d251fe474f1\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E May I start by acknowledging the Hon John Carter who, thankfully, is the Minister in the chair this evening. I acknowledge him first for his leadership of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and, secondly, for the way he has conducted himself not only here in the Chamber but also across Auckland as he has consulted with various groups and parties. May I also acknowledge the role of the Hon Rodney Hide, and the work that he has done in bringing the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill to the Chamber, and for bringing his ideas, vision, and values to Auckland City. I also acknowledge my colleagues who sat on the select committee and listened to the people of Auckland, as well as my colleagues from across the aisle, and my Green Party and ACT colleagues who also went through the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI will now go back to first principles. Auckland City\u2014that is what this is bill is about. It is about Auckland City and its people. It is about Auckland City and the place it has been in the past, the two beautiful harbours that we have, and its fertile lands. It is about Auckland City being the prime driver of New Zealand\u2019s economy. It is about a city that is rich in history and in many of the things we value as New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EBut Auckland is a city that is underperforming and is bogged down in red tape. It is a city where transport projects have been delayed over a number of years. It is a city where development and social cohesion have been prevented because of the structure and functions of the various councils across Auckland City. The issue is about having multiple agencies having to play a role in one simple consent. It is about having seven long-term capital and community plans. It is about having seven mayors and seven departments that handle resource consents, with different rules, different applications of by-laws, and different by-laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis bill is about bringing Auckland under one banner. It is about having one leader with one vision for the future of this city and this country. Whoever that leader may be\u2014whether it be Mr Banks or Mr Brown\u2014it will be a leader who will have a proven record and credibility for delivering for the people of Auckland City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EI will now turn to the issue of consultation and to what many here have described as listening to the people of Auckland City. I personally held four meetings with the Hon John Carter across my electorate, the electorate of Maungakiekie. The meetings were largely positive, where the people of Maungakiekie said that they wanted a united city. They said that they wanted a single vision, but they wanted local representation and local boards to achieve what the people want done in their local areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis process is about listening. All the members here have talked about listening, yet they do not have a definition for it. I looked it up. \u201CListen\u201D is defined as to \u201Cmake an effort to hear something\u201D and \u201Cto hark; to attend; to hear; to note\u201D. To listen is not to ignore, it is not about scorn, and it is not about disregard, which is what the Labour Party are talking about. To listen does not mean to bow to the demands of a rabble-rousing minority. It does not mean that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe have heard in the Committee the scaremongering that comes from the Labour Party. The fact is that Labour members actually agree with most of this bill, but they sit there, then they stand and attack. New Zealand and Auckland are fed up with that type of attitude. People are fed up with the negativity. They are fed up with the political games and with people going to Australia to dig up dirt on other politicians. New Zealanders voted last November, and they said that they were fed up with Labour. They want a Government that they can trust. They want a Government that they can have confidence in. That Government is a John Key - led Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003ELet us turn to local boards. The fact that we are having local boards declares that if there is one single, clear message, then it is about getting the \u201Clocal\u201D back into the local community. That is why we have responded by saying that we will give local bodies some budgets. We will give them some resources. We will give them some control over what goes on in local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of talk in the last 24 hours about leadership. We have the Mayor of Auckland, the Hon John Banks, who has been a Minister of the Crown. He has delivered to the citizens and ratepayers of Auckland City. He has delivered on policies, because what he says is what he means. He has delivered on low rates rises that are consistent with inflation. They are not 30 percent rate rises, like those proposed in the last city vision that Labour had for local government in Auckland City. The people of Auckland City have said that they were fed up with that. Tax-and-spend liberals\u2014that is what they are fed up with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThis measure will be about leadership, it will be about credibility, and it will be about the leadership and vision needed to lead Auckland City into the future. That is why I stand in support of this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022087e9d9ce21d4ad5af5f959f20eb03a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022087e9d9ce21d4ad5af5f959f20eb03a9\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I congratulate the previous speaker, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u2014it took him only 11 hours of this debate to get up and make a speech. We have been talking for 11 hours, then he graces this Committee with his words. You know, it is quite interesting that that member got up and talked about having one leader for Auckland, one vision. That sounds a bit like communism, a bit like what went on in the old days in Russia\u2014one leader, one vision. It surprises me that someone from the right-wing National Party would do that. It was also interesting to hear the National member who lives in Te Atat\u016B, Tau Henare. He will not cross the floor, because he will not betray his party. He came here first of all as a member of New Zealand First, then he crossed into Mauri Pacific, then he was in the wilderness for a while, and then he joined the National Party. But something has happened to Tau Henare since he joined the National Party\u2014this democratic party that gives people the ability to have their say. They might be able to have their say, but they cannot have the vote they want. Tau Henare was unable to have the vote he wanted. He has been put to one side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI will talk a bit about the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I think that this bill is very, very important. I do not believe that the Government necessarily has it all right, and I do not think that the Hon John Carter or the Hon Rodney Hide think they have it all right either. That is why we on the Labour side of the Chamber talked about having a review of this legislation after 5 years, once it is up and running, to see what needs to be changed. I think this has to be built in. I think Aucklanders deserve to have a situation where they know that things that are not right, could be put right. It is very hard, when we have such major changes to legislation and the set-up, to get it right first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI also think we should be hearing how much this is costing Aucklanders. We know about the costs to democracy, but we need to know the financial costs. This Government has been absolutely silent on the financial costs, and that is something I think this Government owes the people of Auckland. It should be telling them what this will cost. In my electorate I have lots of elderly people who are really worried that this is going to cost them a huge amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca677c7ff0242b19c0afd94096482b6\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s because you told them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2aceb018a054b2e9e07b9b0f0c28f27\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There goes Nikki Kaye, squawking again\u2014squawking, squawking, squawking. That is her style. It might be all right in Auckland around the coffee bars and the wine bars, but it is not good enough in this Chamber. People want to know exactly what this is going to cost. We are going to take eight different computer systems and put them all into one system, and that is never a cheap exercise. I saw it when I was in Government. When I was a Minister I saw all these great ideas of how new computers would do marvellous things. First of all, there were what people would call stuff-ups. Then there were financial blowouts. I think Government members should get up and tell us about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to mention is local boards. I hope Manurewa has a local board; it has something like 80,000 people. And then there is Papakura with 48,000 people. Will they both have the same representation in the size of their boards? Or will they have different numbers representing the various boards? People do not know about these things, and of course Government members are not saying anything about them. Will the M\u0101ori people have an assurance that they will get elected to local boards? No, I do not think the Government will do that. But it is important that we know whether the local boards will have four people, or nine people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022731d4b029ae849008c78f778a5372293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022731d4b029ae849008c78f778a5372293\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I want to respond to the point George Hawkins just made about costs. One of the things the Government has been careful about is the whole issue of costs, so I will talk about that issue for a minute. I know it is very easy to go around and say that if we add this up it will cost this much, and if we do away with that we will save that much. But we actually end up with misinformation. We end up misleading people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI believe, and the Government believes, that as we make this change we will drive efficiencies into Auckland. One of our objectives, for example, is to get on top of the traffic congestion in Auckland, which is estimated to cost up to $2 billion a year. That is $10 per week for every person in New Zealand. Goodness knows what it costs the average person in Auckland, but it is a huge amount. If we decrease that by only half we will make significant savings. But for anyone to say we will do this or that, or say that this or that will be a consequence, quite honestly is misleading. The way in which it needs to be addressed, I say to Mr Hawkins\u2014and I know that he knows this\u2014is to look to drive efficiencies and better decision-making, and, as a consequence, better results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI recall in 1989 the then Labour Government went around and told New Zealanders there would be huge savings in rates as a consequence of the changes it made. They never eventuated. We are making changes that are likely to\u2014indeed, will\u2014result in better efficiencies. The changes will result in efficiencies of delivery, efficiencies in transportation, and efficiencies in the way in which we make decisions. There will be all sorts of efficiencies. Of course there are also costs. There are costs with the Auckland Transition Agency at the moment. There will be some changes in terms of ways in which staff are redeployed. There will be changes to office structures. George Hawkins mentioned computers. Of course there will be costs. If we try to quantify one against the other, we come up with an answer that, quite honestly, we cannot defend or express. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI say to the Opposition that one of things we have been careful to say is that we are looking to make efficiencies. There is no question that there will be gains, but to try to quantify those in dollar terms at this stage would be stupid. We are not doing that; we will be making sure that we have an efficient structure. We will be making sure we have an authority that can deliver efficiencies and look after the regional issues that matter to Aucklanders and to New Zealand. We will have a structure that makes sure that the services that local communities want are delivered in an efficient way. We will end up with a better result as a consequence of these changes. I know that, funnily enough, the Opposition actually believes that as well, because it supports the general principle. That is one of the things that this Parliament seriously needs to note. At the end of the day it is the efficiency gains that we make out of these changes that will benefit all New Zealanders, particularly Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022230b649effe54189a7741f4bf0bc0a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022230b649effe54189a7741f4bf0bc0a5c\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I have no doubt that the Hon John Carter believes what he says about the changes in the bill driving efficiencies, but I want to reflect to him the experience of local communities. When the National Government says it will drive efficiencies, the experience of local communities is that some people will lose their jobs. There is uncertainty about those words, and people think that they mean that something will be cut. So far, the experience of the public in the Auckland region, in the 9 months of having a National Government, is that there have been significant cuts in health and education. That is the experience they think of when they hear those particular words. So it is quite important to think of that while we are listening to those comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to say is that the Hon George Hawkins, Ross Robertson, and I ran a survey in the early months of this year. We asked people what they felt would happen with the Government\u2019s proposal of a super-city. Overwhelmingly, the response from the survey, or the referendum, was that people perceived that there would be increased rates as a result of the super-city structure. That is not hard for people to imagine, because local councils struggle, year in, year out, in an effort to maintain rates. It has been the experience of ratepayers throughout the Auckland region that rates go up and up. It has been our experience in Manukau that we have attempted to try to always limit the increases of expenditure to the rate of inflation. But that has been quite difficult because infrastructure such as roads, and other social infrastructure, does not get recorded in the rate of inflation calculations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI also say that Labour has been quite clear from the start. It has always supported the reform of Auckland governance because it has been Labour\u2019s desire. Labour wants to build a strong region. We want a dynamic region. We want an inclusive region. We want strong communities. But the proposal that has been put up by the Government is flawed and undemocratic. That is the way the people of Auckland perceive it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI say also to Government Ministers that I know they are irked about the way we have argued about the bill, but these are not minor tinkerings around the edges of the local government structure. The changes are significant, I say to Mr Hide. They are significant changes that alter the face and the landscape of local government. It has not been done before. If Labour were putting together this proposal, we would take our time to make sure that everybody was on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EGovernment members have argued and said that this is a journey, and they have talked about the \u201Cvehicle\u201D. If the bill is the vehicle to take us into the future, then we need to get everybody on board. People are not on board, because they do not believe that the Government is doing this for the right reasons or that the structure will strengthen democracy. They believe that it will do the opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI will talk briefly about the social issues. Members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee will have heard from the overwhelming response from submitters in the Auckland region how they have concerns about whether the new structure will be able to maintain and sustain the linkages they currently have with the various city councils in Manukau and elsewhere. Many submitters argued that there has to be a proper structure that is legislated for, with sufficient resources to provide ongoing support for the needs, projects, and community activities that are currently happening for children, young people, and libraries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022609ff79414a44fa3baa27bbcfc135bed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022609ff79414a44fa3baa27bbcfc135bed\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I reiterate the comments of Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga. Tonight we are here because we believe that the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill is the best thing for Auckland. We are here because we want to finally deliver a regional entity for Auckland that will ensure that we have a decent public transport system, and that will give the mayor, the councillors, and the local board members the ability to finally deliver a public transport system that does not involve 20 organisations in its delivery. We are here because we want to make sure that there is a major event strategy for Auckland. The sad fact is that Labour actually agrees with us that there should be one unitary authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe come to the issue of local representation. Are we here tonight because there is an argument about those local bodies? No, we are not. On this side of the Chamber we know that Labour has come to a position that is very similar to ours. It says we should have 14 to 20 local boards; we say we should have 20 to 30 local boards. What is the difference between 20 and 20? Nothing. Actually, there is quite a high likelihood that we could end up with a very similar number to what members opposite want. So this argument is not about the number of local entities that are delivered for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe community boards came to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and they gave impassioned pleas. They said that they needed to have more functions and powers, and that they needed to have adequate funding. You know, we listened and we said they were absolutely right. There is a principle in the legislation that very clearly says that, except for some decisions at a regional level, decisions will be made at the lowest possible level. I have said this to members around the other parts of the country. This evening and tomorrow we are delivering possibly a stronger unit of local representation, which we have never seen before in New Zealand. That is very significant, and I feel very proud to be standing up and supporting that unit in our legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other key point that we delivered\u2014and we made it very clear in the legislation\u2014was that there would be funding. Finally\u2014I made this point, and I have not heard a member on the opposite side debate it this evening\u2014for the poorer communities, which include M\u0101ori, a principle within this legislation says that socio-economics will be a factor in the delivery of funding across Auckland. That principle has the potential to deliver more to M\u0101ori than ever before. Are the members opposite talking about it? No, they are not. But I am very proud to stand up and say that this legislation has something for the poorer communities of Auckland, and that they may finally get some equity in terms of services across Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe have heard many arguments this evening about consultation, but the members opposite have failed again to say why, after 9 years in Government, they did not deliver this consultation. They set up a royal commission. They know so much about setting up commissions, strategies, and reviews, but ultimately, at some point, when you have an 800-page report sitting in front of you, you have heard 3,500 submissions to the royal commission, and you have heard 2,500 submissions from Auckland, what do you think will come from fluffing around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd04bd0b30ee4e7ca72fd405d36469b2\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. On two occasions the member has brought you into the debate. I let it go the first time. The member is now experienced enough. She should know better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0bd062df3814ec8a74da3fe814eeb36\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be more careful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee26e0d587d4e5f981d0e5b072a65cc\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE\u003C/span\u003E: What do members actually think we will get out of fluffing around? What will members say to the 6,500 employees currently in local government across Auckland who are waiting for certainty in terms of their jobs? They would say that we should delay, that we should wait. Well, the royal commission said the members opposite are wrong; the Government must act now to ensure that we have a structure in place in time to have local body elections. Members opposite who argue anything contrary need to explain to the people of Auckland what they will do for those 6,500 people who are right now looking for certainty, and what they will say to those local body politicians. Will they say that we do not need local body elections in 2011? That is the position of the Labour Party, and it has failed to articulate how it would get over that hurdle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EMembers have heard tonight many arguments about M\u0101ori representation, and I thank the people who submitted to the select committee on issues of M\u0101ori representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc33c8bc99ce4918bcb32b15f44e2692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc33c8bc99ce4918bcb32b15f44e2692\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to address something that the previous speaker, Nikki Kaye, said. She said we agreed with everything in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I want to clarify something. There are things in the bill that National has put out that we fundamentally disagree with, and that are completely in contrast to our values as the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae47f16097ce4e46bab8491e7b34dec6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Name and shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022425cc623f6a94673ab1235f4d335e0b4\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I will do so; the member is a little impatient. Firstly, on the issue of M\u0101ori representation, we are fundamentally opposed to what the National members are trying to do. We are completely behind the fact that M\u0101ori should have representation in Auckland. We are not going to sell them out on that one. We are fundamentally opposed to National on that. National has stated its position quite clearly. ACT has pulled National on to its side. But National would have done this anyway; it was quite happy to do this. The National members do not want there to be M\u0101ori representation; we do. In terms of the M\u0101ori and Pacific advisory boards\u2014the voice for M\u0101ori, for Pacific people, and for the ethnic communities in Auckland\u2014the National Government really does not care. That has been quite apparent from the get-go, but especially during this whole Committee process. We will not sell Aucklanders out on that either, we say to Ms Kaye. We ask her to please not say we agree with everything that she says, because we fundamentally disagree with a lot of things that she is pushing with regard to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the huge mistakes that the National Government has made\u2014and we are still in shock that it could not take this recommendation on board\u2014was the refusal to take on board the recommendation that there be a social issues board. This comes back to the priorities of National versus Labour. National thinks that everything is about the economy. National members still believe in the trickle-down effect. They still believe that they can ignore the things that are happening with regard to social impacts and things that are happening in society, just concentrate on the economy, and that it will all work out. We know from experience that that is not the case. When we look at the past, as I said earlier, we see that the National-ACT candidate for super-city mayor, John Banks, epitomises everything that National and ACT stand for. One example of that is that when he became Auckland mayor, we saw positions in the Auckland City Council, like that of the Pacific librarian, suddenly changed\u2014in that case, to the position of new migrant librarian. As a Pacific person I find that difficult to comprehend, given that 60 percent of our people are now New Zealand born. We can expect those kinds of actions from the type of council that the National Government supports in the legislation that it is pushing through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIf we look at what the royal commission recommended with regard to the social issues board, we see that it identified a set of social well-being domains. I will look at some of those domains. The commission identified health, and it identified knowledge and skills. Let us just look at knowledge and skills. We already know, from the legislation that has been passed and the policy direction that this National Government has taken, that knowledge and skills are not a priority for National. The commission also identified paid work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f2a4ca3262142f68b7988b05ab02ded\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ae56f218d146af8514da033b9237e5\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014paid work\u2014as a social well-being domain. Those were recommendations from the royal commission. Yet this National Government has been quite happy to accept that 2,000 people per week have lost their job since it became the Government. The commission identified the economic standard of living as a social well-being domain. Again, this National Government knows nothing about that. The royal commission identified civil and political rights as a social well-being domain. Again, the Government\u2019s attitude towards those rights is already reflected in the fact that it is not supportive of M\u0101ori representation on the council. The Government is not supportive of civil and political rights. The commission also identified cultural identity as a social well-being domain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOf course the National Government chose to ignore those recommendations, because social well-being is not something the National members support. We can see that when we look at their local body counterparts who are in the National Party or the ACT Party. They include people like the Deputy Mayor of the Auckland City Council, David Hay, who opposed giving additional funding to the Pasifika Festival in Auckland earlier this year. Those people are opposed to these social well-being domains; they do not see them as being of any value. That is the problem I have with the legislation that the National Government is trying to put through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002267c5fcf629704176b8546635b5d59c9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c5fcf629704176b8546635b5d59c9a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak once again on this very important bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af3751481644cce8bed97b5e29a4f52\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Something new, Dr Paul.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61063690b0d45bc9953a8e647a3b28d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there will be something new, but I say to the member that he will just have to wait for a moment, because I want to reiterate the submission of the Franklin District Council, which was particularly powerful and which wished to have a unitary authority that was separate from Auckland. As I hope Mr Prasad knows, the council had very strong arguments. Those arguments acknowledged that it was absolutely appropriate for the city and urban, metropolitan Auckland to be unified and that the very things that the National-ACT coalition Government are bringing in are indeed brought in expeditiously, not after 9 years of waiting during which the Labour Government mucked around. The council also said that some of those reasons included that Franklin was totally self-sufficient in water, in stormwater, in reticulation, in sewerage, etc. It also pointed out how very, very important it was to ensure that the class 1 and class 2 soils of the Franklin area were preserved and to ensure that urban sprawl did not cause erosion of this very, very important factor, of which Franklin is so proud and from which it supplies not only Auckland but also the rest of New Zealand, and which is very important for exporting around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that to have a separate unitary authority was going to be a hard ask, because neither the royal commission nor the response from the Government supported that. I must say that I personally got in right behind the council. I, with various other luminaries\u2014Sir William Birch; Lindsay Tisch, the excellent member for Waikato; Mayor Mark Ball; and others\u2014sought to support it. I reiterate that not one Labour member supported the submission of the Franklin District Council. We have heard George Hawkins wax lyrical, but he did not get off the bowling greens of Manurewa to even come up to Pukekohe to consult. We have Ross Robertson, of course, who continues his maniacal gibberish, and who also failed in any way to support the Franklin District Council. We have had total silence from Nanaia Mahuta. But, sadly, right now we have a situation where the boundary lines are drawn through both Waiuku and Pukekohe. There is no doubt that under the Local Government Commission determination, they must be moved south. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022853bb4e8d680444395a4f4e80f1fc271\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d say that\u2019s the worst possible scenario, wouldn\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b66cd1a413a4d3c9238e19f15665de9\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is, and I hope, Mr Twyford, that you will pressure the Local Government Commission to ensure that they are moved south. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8fb74bfa68d47ad9bcc86f9f4eb1604\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295a5985969934cca9a961958ae4f0008\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Ross Robertson should sit down. It is a waste of time. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230e7017d41b34f9180b5b595a5b7121e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the member needs to state what it is. The member on his feet referred to the Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c657499df7343759e4201bfa46392a2\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Further point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73bce36fee44b659f444a890ece5e45\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I am on my feet. The member will sit down. The member referred to the Chair by use of the wrong pronoun. I ask him to be careful about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d8c0529dcd44d997407c0a9bcb483e\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. You know as well as I do that a point of order is to be heard in silence and that it is to be short and straight to the point. When I tried to raise a point of order there was rabble-rousing from members on the other side of the Chamber and you ignored it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d5e9f7dcf143c8844d3a2c4c958f8d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair is not required to hear a point of order when the Chair is about to move on the matter. I ruled the member on his feet out of order, which I think was the intention of the member. The member himself created some noise and he stayed on his feet when I was making my ruling. We are going to have some order around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278af93e5a4c645138b66458813bb349e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I take note of what you have said, Mr Chairperson. I must admit that I was distracted by the gibberish from the other side. Indeed, I challenge anyone in this Chamber to ensure that those lines move south. But I want to go further than that. I really do wonder about the sincerity of George Hawkins and the Labour Party when we see this technically abysmally drafted amendment in the name of George Hawkins. I think the Hon Rodney Hide pointed out quite succinctly just how bad it was when we had an amendment that could potentially extend the Auckland super-city beyond Mount Ruapehu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI have a little note here. It says: \u201CMember and party: George Hawkins MP Labour, Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, proposes the southern boundary be south of the current Franklin district and follow the boundary of the Waikato River catchment. Comment: This amendment does not make sense.\u201D That is the summary of the utter confusion amongst the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f70b80b14c804842ac10fa9b6b53de08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f70b80b14c804842ac10fa9b6b53de08\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to Mr Carter, who has almost woven a fantasy about what these local boards will be able to do. I do not doubt his sincerity and that he genuinely believes it. He said that we have ensured the local voice is going to prevail, and the local communities are going to be empowered under this bill. I found myself almost caught up in his fantasy and his enthusiasm, and I wish that it were true, but I ask the Committee how local boards can be empowered when they have four to nine members, when they have no staff, when they have no autonomy, when they have no resources, when they have no service delivery function, and when they are completely subservient to the council. That is the problem: his fantasy does not match reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye talked about this wonderful principle of subsidiarity that will ensure the local boards are empowered. But any fool could read this and realise the folly of what she is saying, because of the exceptions in that clause that allow the Auckland Council to veto almost any decision of a local board. Ross Robertson is worried about his swimming pools in Manukau. Mr Carter said: \u201COh, no, don\u2019t worry about that. They\u2019ll be allowed to have free swimming pools if they want free swimming pools.\u201D But, actually, if Mr Banks is the mayor all he needs to do is look at that clause and say that the impact of the decision will extend beyond a single local board area and, therefore, it can be vetoed\u2014and would it not be, if there were to be free swimming pools in Manukau? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ELook at\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226866b46a9de47d9864141bc55074fba\u0022\u003EAaron Gilmore\u003C/span\u003E: Paranoia conspiracies!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d810b54da0554a12b2ce7c4bb1be8425\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There is nothing paranoid; there is nothing conspiratorial; all I am doing is reading the legislation. Speaking of conspiracy, however, I want to turn to another subject, which is the ACT local government policy, taken fresh off its website. It is still up there. At least ACT is completely up front about its intentions. Its policy states: \u201CLocal government should progressively shed ownership of its commercial activities. \u2026 Roads and piped water will be supplied on a fully commercial basis.\u201D I remind all members of this Parliament and all Aucklanders what the intention of ACT is in this bill. One of the intentions is to set the Auckland Council up in such a way that the Government can pluck the $28 billion worth the council\u2019s assets, get its hands on them, and privatise them. We need to put the legislation in the context of ACT being deprived of its desire to sell off national assets, so it is turning to local government\u2014and where better than Auckland Council, where there is $28 billion of assets, ready for the plucking! So thank heavens we have Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment! It basically says that no asset would be able to be disposed of without a majority of valid votes cast in a referendum. Unfortunately, this will probably be voted down, like everything else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIf John Banks gets into power\u2014as he said this morning on radio, he already has 600 people on his campaign team\u2014he will have vast amounts of money. How does one win an election with 1.4 million voters? I think Auckland has a population of 1.4 million, with 800,000 voters. Someone pointed out that one would have to be very rich to even put out one pamphlet to as many voters as that. Of course, the election for the mayoralty of the super-city will favour John Banks because he will be able to throw at the issue his 600-member campaign team and his vast resources, which will be marshalled by right-wing Aucklanders. They see this as a golden opportunity to get their hands on those assets, progressively corporatise them, put them into Crown-owned companies, get them ready for privatising, and then pluck them off, one by one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIn Wellington when I was a city councillor, we had Capital Power, which was a very good, very efficient organisation. In came councillors like Mark Blumsky and others, and sold them off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00228f71463bfe4e4b1198e1fd117455dddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f71463bfe4e4b1198e1fd117455dddd\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Social Issues Board is the issue I will talk about. It is one of the issues that I think has been neglected by this National-ACT Government over the last 5 months. It has ignored the recommendations and the findings of the royal commission in relation to the Social Issues Board, and it deserves serious consideration. The royal commission pointed out, quite accurately, that Auckland as a city has some entrenched problems that are more difficult and more complicated than other parts of the country have. One of those problems is the level of income inequality and poverty. The commission makes the point that the social infrastructure and the social well-being of a city are just as important as the physical infrastructure. Can we be a world-class city if too many children are dying before they reach the age of 5? Can we be a world-class city if a young couple cannot afford to buy their own home? Can we be a world-class city if there is no decent public transport to get from home to work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe royal commission made the point very well that for too long local government in Auckland has abdicated its responsibility. Even though the four well-beings set out in the Local Government Act\u2014economic, social, cultural, and environmental\u2014are spelt out clearly as a mandate for local government, too many councils, too many mayors, and too many councillors have washed their hands of the responsibility for social well-being. They have said it is central government\u2019s responsibility; it is not their job. The sell-off of pensioner housing by Auckland City a few years ago is a classic example of that kind of behaviour. For those reasons, I am promoting a Supplementary Order Paper this evening that would establish a Social Issues Board in line with the recommendations of the royal commission. It would set up a board that provides high-level political and official leadership for a social well-being strategy, plan, and budget for the region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe royal commission pointed out that $12 billion a year is spent in Auckland by central and local government on social development purposes. But it rightly identified that too much of that funding is not targeted and deployed as accurately as it could be. There is enormous potential for central government and local government to work together in a way that is more creative and more innovative to tackle the whole problem of social well-being. This evening we intend to put forward this amendment to set up a Social Issues Board. It would be supported by an advisory group of officials from the different councils, so that the analysis and the data collection would be done to inform good work in this area. The royal commission also identified the need for a committee of councillors on the Auckland Council to feed into this strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThese recommendations have basically been ignored by the Government. All we got\u2014and I say this to the member for Auckland Central\u2014was Paula Bennett, the Minister for Social Development and Employment, announcing a pathetic social issues forum of people who would meet every couple of months. It is a token effort; it is a fig leaf. It is typical of the kind of importance that this Government attaches to social well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAll of this will count for nothing, I say to members, if Rodney Hide has his way with the review of the Local Government Act. The very mandate that allows councils to work on social well-being will be stripped out of the Local Government Act because of the Minister\u2019s core services agenda. I challenge the Minister to take a call and tell us tonight what those core services are. We asked him on television the other night and he would not say. He could not say or would not say. Will pensioner housing be considered a core service? Will libraries be considered an acceptable area of endeavour for local government? Will community development be considered? I do not know. What about childcare? What about early childhood education? Will they be part of the core services? These questions are making Aucklanders mistrustful and anxious about what kind of a super-city we will end up with, because of the extremist agenda this Minister is running.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u002294c8c6944af542509f25a47af2a46d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294c8c6944af542509f25a47af2a46d39\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E When I took a call earlier this evening I referred to the fact that as I was walking across the bridge to the Chamber I said to the Hon George Hawkins: \u201CYou stand up and give a speech, because if it is typical of what Labour members have said on this debate so far today, I will be able to take it apart sentence by sentence.\u201D Well, George Hawkins did not let me down. Mr Hawkins talked about the cost of integration. I was very pleased that Mr John Carter took a call immediately after Mr Hawkins to point out the fact that we should not look just at the cost of integration but at the benefits. We should look at the overwhelming benefits of having one city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EWhat is the example that George Hawkins gave? He said that currently we have eight computer systems and we will move to one, so we have to go out and buy one new computer system. Mr Hawkins and Labour members should look not at the cost of the one new computer system but at the cost of the existing eight computer systems that are currently in place, at the cost of the eight different sets of programmes, at the cost of eight different sets of hardware, and at the cost of running them. They should also look at the massive inefficiency with that. I knew I could rely on George Hawkins to point out the folly of his own argument and why we need to have a super-city, and I was not let down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EWhen I was campaigning in Mt Albert I came across a plumber. He said that on his truck he had pipes that he could put in in Manukau City, pipes he could install in Waitakere City, and pipes he could install in Auckland City, and that none of them would go across the boundaries. He has to carry three different sets of pipes. What is the cost to Auckland and Auckland\u2019s residents of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ETalking about Mt Albert, David Shearer made a comment today that was in keeping with the misinformation that Labour wants to put out. He talked about the cost of a councillor running an at-large campaign. He said it would cost $200,000 to run an at-large campaign. We have all campaigned. To print 500,000 copies of a piece of A4-sized paper, folded three times over to fit into a DL envelope, costs about $25,000. If that cost is split between 10 councillors, that is $2,500 a councillor. If the 600 volunteers that Mr Banks has reputedly arranged are used\u2014we have been told about them this afternoon\u2014then there is a free delivery service. Labour has consistently argued, through misinformation, against having at-large councillors. It would cost nothing like $200,000 to run an at-large campaign. If members want an example, they need just to look at the election that is happening right now in Aucklanders\u2019 backyards and in Mr Hawkins\u2019 backyard for the Auckland Energy Consumer Trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI come now to Carmel Sepuloni. What did she say? She referred to the fact that in the Auckland City Council the Pacific librarian has been changed to the new migrant librarian, and she takes exception to that. She said that as a Pacific person she finds it difficult that the Pacific librarian has been replaced with a new migrant librarian. I think that illustrates the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EWe also heard from Mr Sio this evening. He said that Pacific peoples are prepared to put aside their aspirations for a seat at the top table so that we can have specialised M\u0101ori seats. Mr Sio was really saying that we should get M\u0101ori seats and that once we have M\u0101ori seats on the council we should get Pacific seats. It will not be good for Carmel Sepuloni and the Labour Party to have new migrant seats. We will have to have Pacific seats, Asian seats, and whatever else seats. The Labour members have dramatically illustrated why we need to have this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI will come back to Ross Robertson\u2019s comments. He stood up and waxed lyrical about the fact that \u014Ct\u0101huhu does not have a swimming pool. I know something about \u014Ct\u0101huhu because I grew up there and in Papatoetoe. I am a very proud former pupil of Otahuhu College. My father was a pupil there, a teacher there, and a principal there. The people of \u014Ct\u0101huhu built a swimming pool at the school in the 1950s. They dug it by hand, and they were very proud of that community asset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI want to talk about asset utilisation. That is where the overwhelming savings will come in with the super-city. We are constantly told about the $28 billion worth of assets in Auckland. Well, let us utilise those assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EWhen I indicated that there is a swimming pool in \u014Ct\u0101huhu in the Otahuhu College swimming pool, what did Mr Robertson say? He said that it does not count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3ffaad541b5428188587be3e8a4b088\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3ffaad541b5428188587be3e8a4b088\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is very clear that Nikki Kaye and John Carter are the dour salespersons for this particular bill. As they keep doing that with such intensity, we do not see quite the full story coming out. But before I get into that, I have to say that my good friend Mr Paul Quinn clearly has not read anything to do with this particular area, nor is he aware of what is in the royal commission\u2019s report. He did ask repeatedly a few minutes ago what social well-being is. Well, I want him to go and read page 204 of the royal commission\u2019s report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225873d8fa3b3d46a09b5fb293ef8ee92d\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: Tell me what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05c26ba275a4a55bc1cf380a6241012\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Social well-being is defined as \u201Cthose aspects of life that society collectively agrees are important for a person\u2019s happiness, quality of life and welfare\u201D. That includes the member\u2019s. I do not know what Mr Quinn is doing here if he does not know what that means. He should try to understand what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca41a691ea04454a8332eed566c3f509\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: What is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3278f40771a4dfc82036acf6692d6ae\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is the minimum expectation of those who might have voted for him. They would expect him to understand what \u201Csocial well-being\u201D is. It is what we do, day in and day out, in this Chamber. For the member to say: \u201CWhat is it?\u201D , and not understand it, is really quite a sad state of affairs. If the member shouted less from the back of the Chamber and read a bit more, he might get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EIt is clear that the Government refuses to accept that this side of the Chamber has a number of fundamental difficulties with the bill as reported\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd0ddf5a04d483195f751f860fcfcbe\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: What are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226515f1d139c141c89b59c26c9853509c\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is patient, I will tell her. She has been asking what they are, all evening. She is displaying her inability to listen to what we have been trying to say. What is more, the member should really try to recall what they are. But for her benefit I shall repeat them. Labour members have been saying, time and time again, that we have to get the participation right. The bill does not have the participation right. We have been saying the Government has to get the powers of the boards right, and it has not got them right. The Government has to get the social issues right, but it has not got them right. The Government has to get the issue of M\u0101ori seats right, but it has not got them right. The member forgets all those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EBut let me turn to what is more fundamental, and that is the social issues. I hope Mr Quinn is listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259c900b696d04e94aa838833a0530abf\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I am\u2014intently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b0d658c0b624ae3a59aed09e3e5551a\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if he is quiet he will understand better. Auckland is a city of 1.4 million people. It is diverse ethnically and in every other way. It is diverse socially, culturally, and geographically. The double-dipping member will soon understand what I am talking about\u2014if he is able to do that. Any city of that size ought to have a governance structure that addresses the well-being of its citizens explicitly. The report so far does not do that. Members ought to know that the expectation of every person who submitted on social issues, bar one, was that social issues should be a priority of the Auckland Council. So what did the royal commission do? It spent a significant amount of time on this particular issue, and this is what the royal commissioners said: for Auckland to become a world-class city\u2014and I ask Mr Quinn to listen very carefully\u2014\u201Cimproved social well-being outcomes are critical.\u201D Without improved social well-being outcomes, Auckland will not be a great, world-leading city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003ESo what did the royal commission do? It produced a report that tells us all of the social issues that Auckland has to deal with. It would pay members opposite to be a little generous and a little better informed about the real potential of the partnership between local government and central government to address social issues in Auckland. It is all very well during an election campaign for a party to say it will be tough on crime, etc; when the opportunity comes to really do something more fundamental about those who miss out, and the social issues board really has the opportunity to do that, it fails. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u002216687f35482448d8982c6c7032933a15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216687f35482448d8982c6c7032933a15\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that I had not intended to speak at all on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, because I know that we are in very capable and outstanding hands under the leadership of Nikki Kaye, Sam Lotu-Iiga, John Carter, and the Minister for Local Government, Rodney Hide, who are doing an outstanding job as we work our way through this bill. There is absolutely no need for me to stand. But I have sat here since the dinner break, and I have to say that the quality of the debate coming from members on the Opposition side of the Chamber does the Committee a total injustice. They should be crucified for the quality of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EI have listened to most of the debate. This morning, right at the start, at 9 o\u2019clock, I sat in my office listening to the Opposition. The main focus of its attack this morning and last night was about our not listening to the people. Those members were critical of members on this side of the Chamber, because, supposedly, we were not listening to the people. I ask them, in response, how the previous Labour Government got the name \u201Cnanny State\u201D. Why was your Government known as the nanny State? Because you told people how to do everything. You listened to no one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279a6ab00b8424c899caea38bb04450e1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9238ba6a8745ac9e58f2aa96724248\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: Those members listened to no one. Numerous examples littered the 9 years of that administration. It reached its nadir in the Electoral Finance Act, which was brought in under Lynne Pillay\u2019s chairmanship of the Justice and Electoral Committee. She knows all about ramming legislation through the House and not listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EThe other matter to do with Opposition members that I have observed in this debate is that all their objections are someone else\u2019s bandwagon that they have picked up. Last night Hone Harawira gave an outstanding contribution to this debate. He noted that the only time that Labour came on board on the M\u0101ori seats and tried to claim them as its own was when it thought it might be on to a winner. We also saw that last week in the debate on the Resource Management (Simplifying and Streamlining) Amendment Bill. Those members had nothing to contribute, then finally they thought they would object to the provisions to do with trees. And we had the Hone Harawira experience in terms of the M\u0101ori seats. The lesson is that because those members have no vision of their own and no free thought, they react\u2014they react.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EThen we had the contribution from the previous speaker, Dr Rajen Prasad, on social well-being. We had PC claptrap about social well-being. Can I say\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221502176bcb1643f2b7894d249e6253bd\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Shh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b49413d7dc346a88b638b1d0e20c233\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: Are members listening? Please could I have a bit of quiet; those members should listen to Rajen. Social well-being in my terms is that people are happy and proud of their city. They are proud of their city when they have good transport. They are proud of their city when they are well led. They are proud of their city when they have pathways. They are proud of their city when the sewerage system works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00225e3b046fb8ed42188b8bc95bc67c075c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e3b046fb8ed42188b8bc95bc67c075c\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to an amendment in my name to clause 12 of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. The intention of this amendment is to look at making sure that we stop any potential double-dipping or representational rip-offs. I know that the Minister, the Hon Rodney Hide, has spoken about this earlier today, and that we might need to tighten up the wording of the amendment a bit, but let us be clear about the intention. The intention, as I say, is to stop any potential double-dipping and representational rip-offs. It would mean that MPs, for example, would not be able to stand at the elections next year for the Auckland Council, and in the meantime, if there was a parliamentary by-election, it would stop a councillor from becoming an MP and remaining a councillor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThat is a very important principle, we believe, especially at this time, when we will be going through a fundamental change in Auckland\u2019s governance. We want to have people who can really focus on the job and do the job properly, and who can make sure that they spend the requisite amount of time doing either job. The bill as it is drafted already covers a similar sort of situation. It covers the situation of a person who is already on a local board then being elected to the council. It is the same sort of principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EIn this House we have an illustration of the problem that this amendment tries to deal with. This example is councillor and MP Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, who often finds that he cannot, or does not, do both jobs properly. That is fair enough. It would take a superhuman effort to be an MP\u2014which is more than a full-time job, as we all know\u2014and a councillor, and he is certainly not managing to do it. The community is aware of that. Here is an article from a while back, headed \u201CMissing in action\u201D\u2014he is the \u201CMissing in Action Man\u201D\u2014because the community really does not believe that he can do the job. The real issue is that to hold two important jobs representing citizens is to effectively reduce the representation that people have in the Maungakiekie electorate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216dd973a6a0b4627bcff58f08597b243\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m doing better with two jobs that you\u2019re doing with one, Carol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d634792382941c89a9661db600dc838\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014those people whom reputedly he represents, the people of the Maungakiekie electorate\u2014and in the Tamaki-Maungakiekie ward of the Auckland City Council. In the course of doing those jobs, the member concerned receives two salaries, some of which may or may not be donated, at his discretion, to organisations in the electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI think an illustration of the problem is the silence of the member Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga on the Auckland governance reform. It was 11 hours into the debate on this bill before he rose to speak, probably due to uncertainty, I think, about which hat he is wearing. It does raise the question as to whether there are any differences between National\u2019s position on this reform and that of the Banks-led Citizens and Ratepayers councillors of Auckland City Council. I know that the member concerned is a very big fan of both the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and also of the Mayor of Auckland, John Banks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EOn the face of it, the member Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga might have had a bit to contribute to this debate. I am prepared to be fair-minded. On the face of it, having done both jobs, I think that he could have a bit to contribute to this debate. But his contribution all the way through it has been minimal. In what I heard of tonight\u2019s contribution, he was telling us all how good Rodney Hide is and that he supports Rodney Hide\u2019s ideological position, before going on to say that everybody he has spoken to supports these changes. Well, I have to tell members that that certainly does not align with what I hear when I talk to Aucklanders generally, and in the Maungakiekie electorate in particular. One of my colleagues happened to mention that some friends had attended a Government meeting on Auckland governance, where Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga did not really talk very much because John Carter carried the can, and that the friends said the MP Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga was bullying people at that meeting. He said that they were not listening and he did not agree with the point of view that they were putting forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI think that it is important for us to clarify in this Committee the point that the people who are taking on such an important role should devote their full time and energy to undertaking that role. I am sure that members opposite would agree with me on that. We all absolutely recognise the importance of these changes to Auckland\u2019s governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd666293a6714271a62771ebf56e3a8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd666293a6714271a62771ebf56e3a8d\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to stand yet again to speak on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I know that my colleague Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga will be speaking again, because you will keep; you will keep. And we do have a little competition in National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55b40c5d81f498b98280adf06ec75d1\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am a new member, but I do not think it is right for that member to be saying that you\u2014the Chairperson\u2014will keep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab651d25ea0450da2833efdae945747\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: At this hour I hope to be keeping a bit longer. I know that the word \u201Cyou\u201D has been used many times during this debate. I make it clear to members that they cannot bring the Chair into the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe second point is that there has also been some familiarity coming into the speeches by way of calling a member by his or her first name. We have to call members by their full name, or call him or her \u201Cthe member\u201D, or sir, or whatever. The point was well made. From now on, could members please show some decorum and respect the protocols that are important as this debate continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe66f2d41f648a8bfd2105ad6ea8775\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would like to mention once again the enormous contribution paid by visionaries in the past in the Auckland firmament. I am referring, of course, to Sir John Logan Campbell, who created a wonderful park in the verdant, leafy electorate of Epsom. Another person who springs to mind is Sir Dove-Myer Robinson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EI believe in the importance of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, and in the skill and panache with which the Hon Rodney Hide and the Hon John Carter have steered this bill through the myriad of rocks and whirlpools along the way to this point. We are not there yet, but we are getting there. I believe that in the future the Hon Rodney Hide and the Hon John Carter could well be remembered in the same breath as luminaries such as Sir John Logan Campbell and Sir Dove-Meyer Robinson. What is the city? As Shakespeare said: \u201CWhat is the city but the people?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb488afc2aac4bd8bb23bad0a4fb7e31\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfe830c0780469e8195fff140ec49bf\u0022\u003EDr CAM CALDER\u003C/span\u003E: Members are in for another treat: \u201COh, blank confusion! True epitome of what the mighty city is herself, to thousands upon thousands of her sons, living amid the same perpetual whirl of trivial objects, melted and reduced to one identity \u2026\u201D. Those are the words of the Romantic poet William Wordsworth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EUnlike the unlamented, dilatory, despondent, dismal, detached, detumescent, one could say flaccid, and failed phantom of the late Labour administration, and unlike the empty husk of what was the previous Government, this National Government has been principled, pragmatic, and inclusive, and it has been listening. We have concentrated on hearing the people. We have taken heed of the hundreds of submissions, the plethora of proposals, and we have paid attention to the arguments of armies of Aucklanders. I again ask members, as Shakespeare did, \u201CWhat is the city but the people?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EOne of the most frequently heard submissions was a plea for a European Union - like subsidiarity, a concept that is taken to the nth degree in France. There they have small areas of fewer than 10 or 15 square kilometres with fewer than 300 souls. We have listened to the requests for representation by communities of interest in the myriad of proposals that came to the royal commission and to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. The Local Government Commission will decide on between 20 and 30 local boards to reflect these different communities of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003EWhilst campaigning in Manurewa, I found that the majority of people are hard-working and ambitious for themselves and their children. They have certain requirements, many of which this Government is already addressing with early childhood education, more police, more patrol cars, and more insulation for their houses. But chief among their requirements was a need to live in security, to be educated well and to have their children educated well, and they wanted access to world-class health care. These are the typical needs of all communities. They are the same as for the people in Epsom, on the North Shore, in Fendalton, in Christchurch, in M\u0101ori Hill in Dunedin, in Thorndon here in Wellington, or in any community in Greater Auckland that members may consider. There are communities with the same interests. There are similar needs and similar requirements, but there are differences within those small communities and we have been listening to them. There will be between 20 and 30 local boards instigated by the Local Government Commission. Those boards will have real local authority. They will enable democratic decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226c1f2fef3a2044f686d197f3671e744c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c1f2fef3a2044f686d197f3671e744c\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the chance to participate in the debate. When the history of the literary world is written up it may well put Shakespeare and Wordsworth together, but I do not think Calder will be the other part of the contribution of that particular trio. It is always good to count the clich\u00E9s the member uses in his speeches; now we are down to counting the number of times he uses alliteration as part of a very clever speaking device that he was obviously taught at some toastmasters club that is long since defunct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EOne of the points the National-ACT Government has been making in this debate is that this legislation is about having better decision-making for Auckland. The Associate Minister of Local Government, the Hon John Carter, said earlier that it was important that parties did not jump on bandwagons. But as I have sat here for hour after hour listening to this debate, it is very clear that this bill has not been put together in a way that promotes better decision-making at all. Every single stage of the legislative process for Auckland governance has been done under urgency. We do not have a written constitution in New Zealand, so when it comes to local government for Auckland, our biggest city, it is a pretty major deal for members of Parliament to be debating and voting on. We have some areas we agree on and lots we disagree on, but we would all agree that this is pretty important stuff. Yet the Government, which says this measure is about better decision-making, has rushed every single step of it through under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe Government set up a select committee. That is where the legislature gets to scrutinise legislation put forward by the executive. What was National\u2019s approach to that? It was to appoint a Minister of the Crown, who is the Associate Minister for the portfolio to which this bill relates, as the chairperson of the select committee. Apparently, that is because it is all about better decision-making. This is meant to be all about better decision-making, so we have had urgency, urgency, urgency, and a Minister of the Crown running the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThen this bill came back to the House, and the Leader of the House said: \u201CWe will not do this under urgency again, because we know that we have been criticised for not listening.\u201D And what are we doing now? We are sitting on this bill under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWe heard that at the select committee the National members went out of their way to make submitters feel that they were being listened to. Those members told everyone that they were welcome, and said how important their work was and how interesting their issues were, and all of those submitters went away thinking that they had been listened to by National. Yet there is not a single change on the issues of substance in this bill because of what the submitters have said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed670c67b1124fc0b4a6245b944a442b\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc7f4c4133240018eb6f311ed9d0a7c\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: What has happened instead is that members like the member for Auckland Central, Nikki Kaye, have proved that great Mike Moore line of politics: \u201CSincerity is everything. If you can fake it, you\u2019ve got it made.\u201D That is what those members have done. On all of these issues they have not been able to deliver for the people of Auckland like they were meant to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003ELet us take just the issue of M\u0101ori seats. We were told this week that after the select committee process was hijacked over the M\u0101ori seats and the boundary issue, the boundary issue lasted 10 to 12 days. Ironic, that, because that is how long Cabinet took to consider the decision of the royal commission. We were asked to believe that Cabinet read an 800-page report in 12 days. I know that Mr Quinn is capable of that, but none of the other members opposite are. Within 10 to 12 days the boundary issue, which had been hijacked, was all back on again for some people. It was all on again for the people of Rodney. I think that they have an effective member of Parliament who could twist the Government\u2019s arm. The member of Parliament who apologised on the radio this morning is not so good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhy was the issue of M\u0101ori seats not revisited in the same way that the boundary issue was? I remember that when Hone Harawira spoke in the first debate on Auckland governance we had under urgency, he could not wait to put the boot into Labour over the amendments that we had put forward on the M\u0101ori seats. He said that it was terrible, because we had to put M\u0101ori seats together with other forms of representation. Even though it was explained privately to him that it was the only procedural thing we could do, he then went and attacked Labour again, after he had that information. He diminished himself enormously in my eyes at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe speeches that the M\u0101ori Party has given greasing up to the National Government and putting the boot into Labour along with the Greens\u2014the only parties that have stood up for this issue consistently from day one\u2014have been a disgrace, because National has shown that it will back down on issues. It backed down on the boundary issue, and the M\u0101ori Party has not been able to convince it on the M\u0101ori seats issue. But apparently that is all Labour\u2019s fault, according to the M\u0101ori Party speaker. It is a disgrace the way that M\u0101ori Party members have been putting forward that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe Green Party, with only nine MPs and 6 percent of the vote, has given more speeches in this debate than has the National Government, with 58 seats and 44 percent of the vote. That is what has been happening in this debate. The Green Party has outdone National on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee3da84dff45441ba480774bfc571773\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Lazy Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b2582a961b4799974e420ec454fe2f\u0022\u003EHon DARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely a lazy Government. Half the National members who are directly affected by the matters in this legislation have not bothered to take a call. National said that it was ambitious for New Zealand and that it would listen, but it has not even bothered. We have Pansy Wong, who spent 12 years in this House as a list member. She was desperate to become an electorate member\u2014good on her, she became the member for Botany at the last general election\u2014but she sat in the Chamber while we debated whether there should be a board for Asian Aucklanders to be represented on the council and she did not say a single word. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThis legislation is not about better decision-making or about bringing people together. What this is about is good old-fashioned power, where National members are trying to put together a deal for themselves and ignore the substance of the issues that have been put forward by Labour. Those members just do not care about Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u0022effc79b0ef594c57bc78adf247e298c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022effc79b0ef594c57bc78adf247e298c5\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the former MP for \u014Ctaki, Darren Hughes, for that drivel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3a7be97af9470085f7c24f2a22b84b\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: The former electorate MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4b6d7e185647c1843b5178f845c962\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: He is the former electorate MP for \u014Ctaki\u2014that is right. I will address the points my learned colleague Ms Beaumont raised, and the absolute hypocrisy that she and her party members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d734e66c7824cbaad91fc3cdb9e1514\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I fully respect the fact that the Standing Orders of the Auckland City Council are different from those of Parliament and that the member has to try to follow both, but a member cannot possibly accuse another member of hypocrisy. It is out of order in Parliament and it must also be so in Auckland City Council, which the member is so familiar with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fcf91f5f58417088a58a9646474fb6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The member who raised the point of order is correct. I ask the member to withdraw his comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42ab6f8f9e046e8a88c1b2bdfc965bf\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: Withdrawn. A number of Labour MPs have been both MPs and councillors concurrently\u2014for example, Mr Michael Bassett from 1972 to 1975, and Mr Richard Northey from 1984 to 1986. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff1b3440597c43cf9540a3b71e2af9f0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022458aa1f231e14f5aa7fea7ad6071ceae\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what party. The members just seemed to me to be saying one thing and doing another. We had the Hon George Hawkins sitting at the back of the Chamber as Mayor of Papakura as well as a member of Parliament. There is the hypocrisy, and there is the playing of the man but not the ball. When the issues cannot be discussed, Labour members resort to attacking people, personalities, and characters. We saw it during the election campaign last year. We saw the sort of character Labour members have. The president of the party\u2014not some backroom analyst but the president of the party, Mike Williams\u2014went to Melbourne to dig up dirt on the current Prime Minister. What did Mike Williams find? I ask Mr Garrett what he found. I ask Miss Kaye what he found. I ask Mr Bennett what he found. I ask Mr Hide what he found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152e6ba82bee4f16a5146ec357b458a2\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130a69030d7741c4ad6e80779c459081\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: He found nothing\u2014absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EBut let us talk about the consultation that went on in Maungakiekie, where Ms Beaumont did not set up any public meetings and where I set up four public meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226760839b2f5f40ec92f6713a1637d50a\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We are in the Committee stage of the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. The member has not said anything about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce6ff60f40dd4d7f87bae2d15bbe8a71\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to come back to the content of the bill. The debate has been wide ranging; it is a 16-hour debate. There has been some latitude, but I ask the member to confine his comments to the content of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea890295056a40cb9eecbebce2e37a09\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: As they say, it is a night of clich\u00E9s. If Labour members cannot handle the heat, they should get out of the kitchen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EAt one of the meetings in Ellerslie, Ms Beaumont did not turn up; she sent her best friend, Mary-Ann, and Mary-Ann\u2019s partner. Mary-Ann is from the Service and Food Workers Union. What did they do? They turned up and swore. They cursed and swore at the public meeting. What did we do? The Hon John Carter and I just said, with respect, that we do not use that language where we come from. We said we did not know why they would use such language. Is the mission of Labour Party members to go to public meetings and swear, curse, and abuse members of Parliament? I challenge Ms Beaumont to say whether she supports that type of action. If she does not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d175469023448cb78157ca1d5b6741\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5c881e064c44e8ac3c557f32ab062d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, there have been some attacks here. I asked the member to come back to the substance of the debate. The member has 42 seconds remaining. He should concentrate on the substance, as opposed to personal attacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2b8078d75d7444fad93f5bb3f80dfb8\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA\u003C/span\u003E: I just say that the Service and Food Workers Union has a lot of really good, hard workers. They would certainly not accept that type of language and abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EIt is about delivering, and the voters of Maungakiekie will make their decision in 2011. It is about delivering for that community and about a foreshore restoration with $28 million, which as a councillor I promoted. It is about a train station in Onehunga\u2014three train stations. It is about the T\u0101maki Transformation Programme. It is about housing for the poor in Maungakiekie. And it is about delivering for the people we represent. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00227524272aee9c4005ae1261486b976b61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227524272aee9c4005ae1261486b976b61\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I will cover what was said by the previous speaker, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, about double-dipping. There is a difference between him and me: I was successful; he is not. I think that is very clear. I managed to keep my seat; he will not keep his seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EHe should have talked about the poor\u2014those people who will have to pay the bill for the super-city. We have pensioners and pensioner houses in Auckland. What happened with John Banks as mayor? He got rid of those houses. People fear that that will happen again. People fear that they will lose their houses. We see it with the National Government selling off State houses. It is not a very big step to the super-city doing the same thing with pensioner houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWho will pay for the super-city? I brought up this issue before, and it is very, very important. I do not think enough consideration has been given to how all this will be funded. I tell that member that the last time we had a reorganisation of local government I was Mayor of Papakura. Papakura was the only one of the Auckland councils that did not put up its rates. I remember Waitakere rates under Assid Corban going up by, I think, 19.3 percent. Most places suffered huge increases in their costs. The reason for those increases was that people did not plan well and they thought that bigger would be cheaper and more efficient. Of course, it was not. I am not saying that the Government should not do this reorganisation, but it should tell people what the financial costs are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWe are finding out what the democratic costs are, and that people will have less say\u2014we all know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80f78ef9db741eb829706c79c506757\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9fa084e87fc4483bcc9bbcdbd25a304\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely right; of course it is. People will have less say. That member has not worked out yet that one mayor is fewer than seven mayors. She has not worked it out yet. That member can squawk as much as she likes, but the fact is that people in Manukau love their mayor, Len Brown. In Waitakere what did we see? People always love Bob Harvey. Good old Bob! In Papakura the mayor is Calum Penrose. People will lose their mayors. That is the democratic cost of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe financial cost is something that people who are struggling at the moment in an economic downturn find hard to believe. How are we going to pay for it? It is all very well for the member Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, the temporary member for Maungakiekie. He should run for the super-council if he is as confident as that. He should give up Parliament and have a go. I would even tell people to vote for him if it meant he did not come back here. That is how willing I am to help the guy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide is driving the legislation, and everyone knows where he stands on the bill. There is absolutely no doubt where he stands, which is good. But he should tell people what it will mean for them each week and how much it will cost them. The Government cannot tell us how much the set-up of the super-city and the change-over will cost, so how can it tell us what it will cost when the new super-city has been set up? I have not seen anything that is bigger, newer, and shinier but costs less. That is the reality. That is what people are scared about. It does not matter whether people are wrong in their thinking; it is their perception that matters. People actually believe that the super-city council will not be cheaper and will not be more in their faces; it will cost them more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022d059055b1a7e4bc78188ea5847ee64c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d059055b1a7e4bc78188ea5847ee64c7\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I start by acknowledging a few comments from Mr Hawkins. One of the things he said was that people will have less representation under the structure proposed by the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. That is absolute rubbish. Not just this side of the Chamber is saying that; a group of community boards around the country is arguing for 20 to 30 local boards, rather than the 14 to 20 the Opposition wants. The community boards back the Government; they do not back the members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is that we know that Labour is talking about a whole lot of unicorns and leprechauns this evening. Labour is flying kites. Labour actually supports one unitary authority. Mr Hawkins is saying that having one mayor will mean less representation. He needs to stand up and say in the Chamber this evening that he does not support a unitary authority. He does, and we know that. We also know that in terms of the number of local boards and their functions and powers, the Labour Opposition is pretty much where we are. The issues that are being flown by the Labour Party are absolute scaremongering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EIssue No. 1 is the social issues board. I remind members of this Committee that on 4 May of this year the Minister for Social Development and Employment actually listened to the recommendation of the royal commission and set up the Auckland Social Policy Forum. The difference between members on this side of the Chamber and members on that side is that we do not need legislation and bureaucracy to achieve the result. That issue is very clearly being dealt with by the Minister for Social Development and Employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other scaremongering the Opposition is doing is around the issue of cost. The cost of traffic congestion to the people of Auckland is $2 billion a year. How much does that cost each person in Auckland? Yes, there will be operational costs, but everyone believes in a unitary authority, including the members opposite. We believe, in terms of our public transport system and in terms of the major events our city has lost, that the cost to Auckland of not doing this is too much. The cost of not acting and not delivering this for Auckland is far greater than the cost of sitting on our hands, as the previous Labour Government did in its 9 years and would continue to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe other kite that is being flown by Labour is around the so-called secret agenda. I point Labour members to a provision in the bill. Mr Twyford has gone to public meetings, which I have been at, and told members of the arts community that there will be no funding for them. I reassure members on the opposite side of the Chamber, and I refer them to clause 10. It is very clear that clause 10 allows for: \u201Cbetter enabling the promotion of the social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of communities\u201D. So it is very clear\u2014and it is backed up by the Local Government Act\u2014that there is no secret agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to deal with concerns the mythical sale of assets. For members on the opposite side of the Chamber who have not read the Local Government Act, I will give them a provision right here. Section 97 states that a local authority cannot decide to buy or sell a strategic asset, \u201Ctransfer the ownership or control of a strategic asset\u201D, or \u201Cconstruct, replace, or abandon a strategic asset:\u201D unless \u201Cthe decision is explicitly provided for in its long-term community plan;\u201D, and it is consulted on in that context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ESo we have here this evening a bill that provides for a unitary authority that we all believe will finally be able to deliver the regional infrastructure and finally be able to stop the congestion in Auckland. We all believe in having better local representation. Members opposite agree with that. They want 14 to 20 boards, whereas we want 20 to 30. They are flying a whole lot of kites in terms of a social issues forum, but it already exists. They are flying a kite in terms of selling assets, but there are provisions about that in the Local Government Act. They are flying a kite in terms of costs when they know that the whole reason we are here is the cost to Auckland of not moving forward. Members opposite are filibustering this legislation. They actually disagree with very few points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe last issue I want to touch on is the issue of minorities and representation. Many communities turned up to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and said they do not feel they have an adequate voice. I remind members again that we have listened to those people and we have said that we will be looking at that issue in the third bill we introduce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba2ac5981e534dbd9dcbb3e84c84393e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba2ac5981e534dbd9dcbb3e84c84393e\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East):\u003C/span\u003E We have just heard a bit of passion from the honourable member Nikki Kaye, but she did not address the social issues that the Opposition is concerned about. In that respect I support the amendment put forward by the honourable member Phil Twyford about the social issues board. There were 109 submitters who commented on social issues, and all but one wanted social issues to be a priority for the Auckland Council. Let me list some of them. Age Concern Counties Manukau believes that multigenerational facilities are needed. Several Manukau City residents who live in the area of most concern said they wanted to retain their free access to swimming pools and libraries, although some submitters wanted those services also free for the whole region. Efu Koka supported the establishment of a Pacific Island advisory council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EWe might ask why local government should be involved with social well-being. It is a good question, and it needs to be answered. If Auckland City is to become a world-class city, then an improvement in social well-being outcomes is critical. Local government is already involved in, and can contribute significantly to, improved outcomes. The Auckland Regional Public Health Service submission described local authorities as \u201Cplace-shapers and service enablers\u201D, recognising that they have a range of opportunities to enhance, or impede, social well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI have recently had the privilege of meeting with a gentleman called Governor Bo K\u00F6nberg, a former Minister of Health and Social Insurance in Sweden. I met with him recently in Sweden, because I wanted to look at the issue of pensions and how Sweden addresses the problem. That gentleman was a leading reformer in the mid-1990s, and I was amazed to learn the extent to which local issues in Sweden really are local, and that things are taken from central government and put into a social government area. I found that there was more decentralisation of authority from central government down to the local level. So I say to the National Government that it should not be myopic when it comes to the whole idea of social issues and social services, which can actually be provided by local government, because it can certainly do a very good job. I learnt, more than anything else, that the delivery of social services through small local councils increases the councils\u2019 responsiveness to emerging issues. It means they are more effective and more efficient in dealing with those issues. It was an eye-opener just to see how much could be done at a local level by decentralising services down to the local level, so that local actually becomes local. The main thing is the responsiveness to emerging issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EWe find that many councils in other countries, like the Brisbane, Melbourne, Seattle, and London councils, are extensively involved in the delivery of social well-being programmes, whereas those programmes are strictly the responsibility of central government agencies in New Zealand\u2014for example, immunisation, mental health services, and aged care. That is what I really found interesting when I was in Sweden having a special meeting with that social reformer. He told me just how much Sweden\u2019s local government is involved in delivering those services. In New Zealand we are not doing that, and I tell the National Government not to be myopic in its view of these things. It should look at the delivery of social services and see what can be done. It should support the amendment that has been put forward by the honourable member Phil Twyford in the name of the Labour Party, because it is a way of doing things that we have not tried in this country. It is a way that we should consider and it is a way that we should look at. We should open our eyes and think outside the square. That is all I want to say on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI have one further point. I am concerned about senior citizens, especially with the cost of a super-city. I saw what happened to Auckland when the Hon John Banks, now Mayor of Auckland City, sold off the senior-citizen pensioner flats in Auckland. Who purchased them? They were purchased by the Labour Government because it was concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022162a86cbefc440e8a2f8e622200929ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022162a86cbefc440e8a2f8e622200929ef\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairman. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. This is one of my last chances to speak on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, and I say thank you very much for all the support for the M\u0101ori seats from the Labour Party members and the Green Party members as well. It has been consistent and strong, and it has been that way right through this whole debate. In fact, I thank everybody for carrying that issue, because it is something that means a lot to us in the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI am surprised that I am disappointed by what National has done. I am surprised because I always expected National to do it anyway, and I really should not have been surprised by it. I am not disappointed in the actions that have been taken by Mr Rodney Hide, although I think his arguments lack logic, a sense of caring, and an understanding of the issues that are at play in respect of the M\u0101ori seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI am comfortable with taking away from the debate all of the assumed emotional issues, and keeping it on the principle of one person, one vote. I just make the point that if M\u0101ori seats were established in Auckland, those M\u0101ori seats would be voted for on exactly the same basis as a ward seat in Papakura, Rodney, or anywhere else, in that only the people eligible to vote for that particular seat would be able to vote for it, and, having voted once, they would not have an opportunity to vote for anybody else. Clearly the argument that has been put up about it being a case of one man, one vote is a spurious argument. I made the point last night, although in a much more jocular manner, that the fact that Rodney Hide got into this House with five members in his party, when in fact his party received 10,000 fewer votes than another party that did not get anybody in, suggests that the principle of one man, one vote does not apply to this place, particularly in respect of list seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef907d0d003442888cc406b3385addfc\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Check the Electoral Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221643e1f7af624b378ca99383caa082df\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can check the Electoral Act, but it makes the point very clearly that the MMP system that we have is not about one man, one vote but about the opportunity to enable as many different sectors of our society to be represented in this House. If that is the case Mr Garrett is putting up, then that is exactly the same argument we are putting forward for why there should be M\u0101ori seats in Auckland. They operate effectively in this House now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI am comfortable with the view that, as members of the M\u0101ori Party, we are free to speak openly and honestly on every issue that comes before this House, even the ones that we know we will vote for but do not like. We are free to do that. I think that Auckland will miss the opportunity for that kind of contribution and that kind of debate, and the whole country will be weaker by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAuckland is the jewel in the crown of the South Pacific. It is the greatest Polynesian city in the whole world. It certainly has the greatest M\u0101ori population in the world. I take on board the comments from some of the Labour members that at some time in the future we need to have seats that recognise our Pacific heritage. I am entirely comfortable with that view, and I think that in a mature, growing, and positive society we will get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBut, first of all, we start with tangata whenua. That is the reason why the M\u0101ori Party supports having mana whenua seats on the council. It is not about having only one particular tribe being able to pick. That was what was originally asked for, but we were keen to see it broadened, and in fact they were comfortable with broadening the debate so that probably even Shane Jones, me, Tau Henare, Denise Henare, and a whole lot of other people could have comfortably stood in those seats under either Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua or Tainui. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairman. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002295c62008ae4d4ea4be0a854ab808c0d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295c62008ae4d4ea4be0a854ab808c0d6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou. I understand that Mr Hone Harawira is preparing to go overseas, so I say Godspeed. Over the last 25 years we have sought to embed a tradition of biculturalism. Those of us who took up placards, worked with lawyers, or lobbied politicians wanted to embody in a political, economic, social, and cultural form the symbol of the M\u0101ori chief and the representative of the Crown. We accept that society is organic. The shape, colour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235cac32e850449b7b785caf88be205ae\u0022\u003EPaul Quinn\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Earlier this evening it was raised by members opposite that members were not speaking to the bill that was before the Committee. The speaker has so far\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe5a9d7190d42a09bce4bc8b6bc4470\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, please sit down. The member is just starting his speech, and I am happy to accept his introductory remarks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229700db6fcf1f4f48846a29fba56404f9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: For the clarification of the Committee and Mr Quinn, the word \u201Cnadir\u201D is not pronounced as \u201CNarnia\u201D. That is a fantasy land where animals speak. Secondly, Mr Quinn ought to consult Miss Piggy, who says \u201CNever eat more than you can lift.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet us come back to what Mr Harawira was rightfully referring to. This city will be very cosmopolitan and very multicultural, but the tangata whenua and M\u0101ori in general\u2014because it will be a new model for one-third of the economy and the population\u2014wanted the model to carry forward the legacy of indigeneity. That is what National has refuted. We accept that the minority parties have to choose what options are available and grab what they think is the best entry point at a given point in time so that they can expand their influence. There will be a long-term impact of wiping away that bicultural tradition, not to replace it with multiculturalism but to embed a system that undoubtedly will entrench the vested interests in Auckland that are more interested in old school ties, property values, and corporate power. Those interests will overlook the fact that the growing proportion of the population is brown, and that the vividness and creativity is coming from the same sector of Auckland\u2019s population that, perish the thought, the member who is also an Auckland City councillor belongs to, as well as the tangata whenua. That is not to deprecate our P\u0101keh\u0101 contribution, but this really will be the social and, almost, existential cost that the ignorance of members opposite will bring forward to the rest of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere are other areas that we ought to focus on, and I will turn my attention to the importance of a performance auditor as reflected in the royal commission\u2019s report. One of the things that the super-city will end up doing is to empower the bureaucracy. We will have all these smallish satellite communities. They will be too numerous, and although they might give the impression that there will be proximity between voter and organisation, because they will lack viability and critical mass they will be understaffed. Once they are understaffed the people who are on those organisations will end up surrendering power to the bureaucracy. In addition, because there will be a limited number of elected representatives, not the full complement that we were after, enriched by a tangata whenua M\u0101ori presence, the bureaucracy in the subsidiary companies\u2014both the water company and the core council\u2014will have enormous power and influence. That is why a performance audit function was seen by the royal commission as an innovation whose time had arrived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe sums of money and the goods and services produced by this mammoth organisation stagger and beggar belief. It is presumably going to have effective governance over a powerful water monopoly\u2014and there are some good economic reasons why such a vertically integrated monopoly should exist\u2014but no monopoly should exist without a regulatory watchdog. That regulatory watchdog was identified through the royal commission. It is absent within the machinery of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. It may be picked up in the third bill, but it seems that the architects of this exercise are making it up as they go along. I think that for a party that preaches property rights and electoral democratic rights to be silent on the importance of regulators in the face of monopolies is very short-sighted. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022093adcfe19704d9d8b813df5fc0d779f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022093adcfe19704d9d8b813df5fc0d779f\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E It must be Big Wednesday, because all the double-dippers are coming out on the National benches today. I was not going to speak on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. However, I felt compelled to do so after listening to the National members opposite speaking on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe bill has implications for the rest of the country. It has implications for the rest of the country, because we know that the National Government and the Minister of Local Government in particular see the Auckland super-city as the model for the rest of the country. They want to see this model rolled out around the rest of the country, and other New Zealanders will be concerned about that. We know that the Government has already started on that process. For example, I know that National Party people in the Hutt Valley are working to create a coalition to merge the Hutt Valley councils into a super-council, with the ultimate goal of creating a Wellington super-city. I know that people throughout the rest of the country who have been listening might be feeling a little bit over this Auckland super-city debate. They might be a little bit fed up with hearing about Auckland, but the bill has implications for the rest of the country, because it is not just about Auckland. It is about the whole country, and it is about a philosophical belief in the role of local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe belief of the ACT Party and the Minister of Local Government in particular is that local government should be constrained and should be as small as possible. That belief was outlined in a Cabinet paper released by the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, earlier in the year. Its agenda was to strip out all of the social services run by local government\u2014services that our local people value so much. I know that in Auckland local people value the social services provided by their local government, and they do not want to see those services reduced, or slashed and burned on the great ACT Party bonfire, which is what this bill and the National Government are setting Auckland up for. The Government wants to strip away social services that the people of Auckland have come to rely on and value. The National Party\u2014actually, it is more the ACT Party\u2014does not believe that councils have a role in the provision of social services. Under the definition of essential council services, as defined by the Minister of Local Government, swimming pools are not included. Libraries are not in the definition. Recreational parks are not in there. If members asked most New Zealanders about the role of local government, those New Zealanders would say that those services are core local government services, but the ACT Party and the Minister of Local Government do not believe that councils should provide them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENo matter what John Key says when he talks about local government, he has no credibility, because the Minister of Local Government is Rodney Hide. This is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog. \u201CMr 3.6 percent\u201D is defining the local government agenda of the National Government. He is defining it along a radical right-wing approach, which says that local government should be stripped back, and that a lot of the services provided by local government should be done away with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOf course, we know that another core part of the ACT Party\u2019s agenda is to get its hands on the assets of local government, and it is going to start with Auckland assets. I speak in favour of the amendment put forward by my colleague Phil Twyford to protect the assets of Aucklanders, because 85 percent of Aucklanders are opposed to selling their water-supply assets to private companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c81cabf857844f5a11c163076ec759e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: There is far too much noise. I am having great difficulty hearing the speaker, and he has a loud voice. There are too many people standing in the aisles and talking. If members want to talk, they can go into the lobbies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0cf065bd7a4b2db1b57bfde97884fa\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Eighty-two percent of Aucklanders are opposed to selling assets such as parks, libraries, and recreation and entertainment facilities, and 78 percent oppose the sale of transport assets, such as ports, the airport, and so forth, to private companies. So Aucklanders overwhelmingly oppose the sale of their local government assets. Why is the National-ACT Government so opposed to the amendment put forward by my colleague Phil Twyford, which would protect the assets of Auckland? This issue has implications for not just Auckland but the rest of New Zealand. We do not want the National-ACT Government getting its hands on our local government assets around the rest of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d54ee3e8feff4a88ac0b95fb12bd82c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d54ee3e8feff4a88ac0b95fb12bd82c0\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E One of the privileges and one of the surprising pleasures of being on the select committee dealing with Auckland governance has been meeting and getting to know some of the Opposition members. You know, I enjoyed getting to know Sue Bradford a little on the select committee. George Hawkins is a good and likable person. And Phil Twyford\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022946e941530414c7fb0e9ac1c28812fca\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229caa351e36074203b1f4e560b9347db1\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Phil Twyford, who strikes me as a good and earnest person, is the kind of person who probably worked for Oxfam or something like that in a previous life. He is a person who did good in a former life. Of course, he has had some extreme views. He advocated votes for children, which is a little bit strange and the kind of thing that I am sure Rajen Prasad would probably advocate as a measure to increase social inclusion. I did agree with something Phil Twyford said about Auckland very recently to the New Zealand Listener: \u201CThere was a feeling for quite a long time that the city wasn\u2019t working properly, with traffic problems,\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a39d18036384c698398817c9cc338a7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Not that old line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235424a44028740d0a780a9a07f0619ff\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a real goody. The quote continues: \u201Ccrappy infrastructure, and a downtown that looks like a bomb site. There was a lot of grumpiness about that. I think our Government was very late in coming to the party and doing something about it.\u201D It is hard to disagree with that. Of course, the previous Government called for a royal commission on Auckland governance. It copped out and put the issue to the royal commission. That was something, at least, and I do not want to play politics on that. The previous Government did do something; it called for a royal commission. But Mr Twyford is certainly right that the Labour administration was very late in coming to the party on this issue, which has been festering for a very, very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe see the Labour Party\u2019s approach to the issue in its minority report. I have no doubt that Phil wrote it. Did you write it, Phil? [Interruption] I am sorry, I meant Phil Twyford; we should use members\u2019 full names in the Chamber. I have no doubt he wrote the New Zealand Labour Party minority report. In that minority report he basically talks about\u2014on my reading of it\u2014process concerns. We heard the Hon Darren Hughes talk about process concerns, while waving his hands about, because we do not have a written constitution in New Zealand and because this debate is all taking place under urgency. I will tell members what I think about process concerns. I think it means, actually, a Labour Party that cannot find too much wrong with this bill. Labour members come down, in the end, on process concerns. The report states: \u201CThe legislative process has been similarly rushed, disjunctive\u201D\u2014I think \u201Cdisjunctive\u201D is a word a little like \u201Cnadir\u201D, one I am not too aware of; perhaps \u201Cdisjointed\u201D is what Phil Twyford meant\u2014\u201Cand inadequate.\u201D He goes on to say: \u201CThe Auckland public are entitled to a say on these critical reforms. \u2026 the brief policy development period and legislative process have not been conducive to getting this bill right.\u201D The problem with that, I say to Phil Twyford and to Labour Party members, is that the public are not just entitled to a say on these critical reforms; over a full month, sitting from 9 in the morning until 9 at night, they got their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6870c982f64d1692016f1075283380\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: You had nothing to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f3f315c1004a48a46e7786f85ce2ec\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell that member why I did not say anything. I was listening to the people of Auckland. We heard from them all. Out on the marae we saw people dancing and heard them singing. We heard from Phil\u2019s good friend Penny Bright, and from the not so bright. We listened and we heard them. As I have said before, and it is basic but very, very true, we not only listened but acted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8bf498647b14f6b827d45a257012900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8bf498647b14f6b827d45a257012900\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E All we hear from the other side is members contradicting each other. Nikki Kaye goes on and on and says how much Labour members bleat, moan, whine, and criticise everything about the bill. Now we have heard the previous speaker, Simon Bridges, saying that he does not think we see anything wrong with the bill. The reality is that there is plenty wrong with the bill. The Government is just not listening. It is not listening to members on this side of the Chamber, to Aucklanders, or, in fact, to all New Zealanders. Many New Zealanders are very opposed to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI pay tribute to the excellent contributions made by two of the younger members of our caucus. They are two lovely young blokes who gave very, very compelling presentations. They were very logical presentations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295de918c478644d995abbe5147c9aba5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Who are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b87021e9d9e641bcbac359572b509997\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Members know very well who they are. I will talk very briefly just to endorse again that it is absolutely reprehensible for the Government to support its position of not implementing a social issues board. We know that we need glue to hold together the huge city of Auckland. Does the member care about Pacific people, about ethnic people, about young people, and about all those people having a voice and being represented in our city on issues like housing that are absolutely fundamental? We see the Mayor of Auckland flogging off State houses. There is no commitment from him whatsoever. Without having a social issues board, places like Waitakere and South Auckland cannot make that commitment. Without the social issues board, how will those things be protected and saved? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI compliment Phil Twyford. I think he has done a fantastic job, along with all members on this side of the Chamber and indeed many other parties. We were absolutely disappointed that his bill about the protection of Auckland assets was defeated. I am pleased that we have the opportunity for yet another chance to run the debate. We know that the position regarding water supply is supported by 82 percent of Aucklanders. Eighty-two percent support the position regarding assets such as parks, libraries, recreation areas, and entertainment facilities, and 78 percent oppose the position on transport assets, such as selling the port and the airport to private companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI heard Nikki Kaye say that that is absolute rubbish. She is very busy at the moment, probably trying to justify her position on the M\u0101ori seats; I do not think she will have much luck. [Interruption] That is right; that is what she will be saying. I heard Nikki Kaye say in the Chamber that the current legislation is fine and that Auckland assets are safe. We know that that is absolute rubbish. We know that the Minister of Local Government is a great big fan of privatisation. He is on record as saying it. He is the hit guy; he is the Minister of Local Government. The Government does not have to get its hands dirty with private asset sales, despite all the things that the Government fundamentally totally supports, totally believes in, are totally its mantra, and is on record as saying about private asset sales. The Government can make statements that it has an arrangement. Never mind arrangements when it comes to working with the M\u0101ori Party and supporting M\u0101ori seats. What happens when it comes to dealing with and not making a commitment about the retention of the assets in our city, which are absolutely primo to all Aucklanders, whether they are from South Auckland, west Auckland, or the North Shore? Those assets are absolute objects of pride for our city. What every Aucklander and every New Zealander accepts is so important, this Government will not accept. Why? Because the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, does not support it. He is on record as saying in August: \u201CI personally favour privatisation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022866df94bcf7446d8a0f814d63fa953e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022866df94bcf7446d8a0f814d63fa953e3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E This issue needs to have a little time spent on it. As I have said earlier in previous contributions I have made, the lack of structure that has come from Opposition members in regard to issues in this debate has been disappointing. I would much rather have seen them set out a plan, and maybe an alternative to what the Government is doing. But unfortunately they have not done that, mainly on the basis that quite often they actually agree with a fair chunk of what the Government is doing. They then come to issues like assets, and of course they think it is an issue on which they might be able to score an easy point. But let me just make this clear. The first thing people need to understand is that the assets of Auckland belong to the territorial and regional authorities. They are not the Government\u2019s assets. They are not for the Government to sell. We have no authority over them. We have no ownership of them. We have no direction or control of them. That is the first point that is really important for people to understand in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second point is that there is a process if local authorities wish to dispose of an asset. It is called a long-term council community plan. As Opposition members know, and as Government members know, it is a tedious process that just about wears one down. By the time we get through it, the asset would have probably lost any value it had originally, anyway. If, for example, as the Mayor of Rodney recently suggested, she suddenly decided that the Rodney district had to divest itself of a whole lot of assets to get rid of debt, she would have to put that out before the public, and talk to them about it and tell them why they might want to sell the assets. Finally, it is the public that makes the decision. Nothing will change in regard to the way in which the unitary authority in Auckland operates. If there is an asset that the council wishes to divest itself of, it will have to go through the long-term council community plan, and explain to the public what the benefits of selling the asset will be to the people of Auckland. If the people of Auckland finally say: \u201CNo, we\u2019re not interested.\u201D, then I am afraid that is how it will be. That is what the current Act states. There is already that protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe third point that is important for us to understand in anything we are doing in Auckland, or indeed in local government generally, is that this Parliament has to take great care that anything we do does not interfere with the rights and the local democracy of the local people in local government right across the country. Every time we make a decision that affects local government, we are in some way impinging on the rights of the local people to make decisions for themselves. That is something we should seriously take great pains not to upset, if we can. There are occasions when this Parliament does make decisions, because it has the right to. But in the main, and particularly around issues like assets, it is not for us to interfere. If we start making decisions like that, then ultimately we start making decisions on all sorts of things, such as how councils run their libraries, how they run their swimming pools, and how they run everything. In the end we would not need local government, because we would just run it all from central government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIt is certainly not the intention of this Government to do that. It may be that the Opposition wants to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe thing to remember about Phil Twyford\u2019s member\u2019s bill, the Local Government (Protection of Auckland Assets) Amendment Bill, is that it was just a continuation of the nanny State that Labour used to have. [Interruption] I know that Labour members do not like it, but I make the point that we have to be awfully careful that anything we do does not impinge on the rights and the abilities of local communities to make their decisions for themselves in their best interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat is one of the things that this bill sets out to do. It will allow Aucklanders to make the decisions that matter to them on a regional basis, and it will give them the opportunity to look after and to command the things that matter to them locally. We should never get away from that principle. We must remember that it is the right of the public of New Zealand to make decisions for themselves when it comes to local government. We should ensure at all times that we defend that, to allow them to achieve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022df035e4e95ea405aa7e7882110ba64e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df035e4e95ea405aa7e7882110ba64e2\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak tonight about how I used to be in favour of privatisation. I have seen the light. I no longer believe in privatisation. That is very important. I used to be a good friend of Richard Prebble. He would sell anything, and I thought that was the way to go. Sell anything! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b488aec217b4b728b03780ddff96ced\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He did!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294df5bba0c134a80b6cd5f060e156134\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: He did. When I was Mayor of Papakura I sold him Papakura\u2019s airport shares so the Government would have the bulk. That was a silly mistake, because I did not know the National Government would take those shares and sell them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI think John Carter is right. It is not the Government that we need to worry about as far as Auckland\u2019s assets go; it is people like John Banks, a well-known privatiser who sold off pensioner flats and houses. Of course, I then saw that things were not good. When one beats out old people, one knows that privatisation is not the way to go. It is hard for an MP to come down to the Chamber and admit he or she was wrong. But I am quite happy to do it, because I think it is very important. When there is $28 billion worth of assets, the temptation is very great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f0a8c1fd5948d59e4e186690312f23\u0022\u003EHon Dr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Just say you are sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a15896747a142de8f8e551ef3915e63\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I will say I am sorry. I apologise, but I must say that that member, who is chatting across the Chamber, ran the Mt Albert by-election campaign for the National Party. I reckon he would have gone to its caucus\u2014he would have crawled in on his hands and knees\u2014and said sorry. But I do not want to be distracted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWhen there are $28 billion worth of assets, the temptation is very great. You see, Auckland has a big problem with leaky houses; a lot of money needs to be spent. So National will look around and think about what it can put its sticky paws on. I do not think it will sell libraries; I do not think it will sell swimming pools. I think it is more original than that. It will look at the various assets it has, and it will very quickly get excuses to sell them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273e4c508fe24deab2ab5aee93a43936\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: Like what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b95f40b05a4a6dab39d03fc52611cb\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will try to sell all sorts of things. It might even try to sell the water system; I do not know. I have a bit of difficulty because I am not as devious as the Nats. I am not as devious, so I do not know. The Nats are devious enough; they will work it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting that only two or three members of the executive have talked in this debate. I think Jonathan Coleman might have had something to say. What does Pansy Wong say? She knows all about privatisation, and I think she knows the value of a dollar. She will try to turn $1 into $2, but the people of Auckland will end up with nothing\u2014absolutely nothing. You see, when there is so much infrastructure, various councils will be doing a bit of stocktaking now. John Banks will be looking to see how he can get the money to pay for things, because he will be scared that if rates go up, National will be out. That is what will happen to the National Government. When rates go up, that is suicide, so they will sell the family silver. It has happened before. It happened way back in 1987-89. The family silver gets sold. I reflect on that. I was not here then. I thought it was a good idea, but how wrong can one be? One has to be fairly humble to get up in this place and apologise to people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe4938c3e964e80bd6b05d72d8da71f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call Paul Quinn, I comment to members that prior to coming here I was contacted by an avid listener to the debate. It might surprise members, but there are avid listeners out there. The listeners are concerned that they were struggling to hear what the speakers were saying because of the noise in the Chamber. I am not saying that people should not interject, but if a member is speaking, as the member was before, and those surrounding him or her are all shouting and bellowing, then they will drown out the person speaking. It is Mr Quinn\u2019s call. He has a strong voice and there are not a lot of people around him, but I ask members to just be considerate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f39816a6164e44659ec56a252d02cdc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f39816a6164e44659ec56a252d02cdc6\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E I look forward to taking this call in respectful silence. What we have just heard from the honourable member George Hawkins\u2014and he is an honourable member\u2014encapsulates how low the Opposition has taken this debate. He carried on with rhetoric and sensationalism, and he talked about assets being sold, but when challenged he said he did not know which assets. By his own admission swimming pools will not be sold, and I forget the other thing he admitted will not be sold, but when challenged to say what will be sold, he said he did not know. What he did not say, but what he meant, is \u201CIt doesn\u2019t matter. Don\u2019t spoil my story!\u201D. That is how low the debate has gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EAn earlier speaker, my friend and colleague from the Hutt Valley Mr Chris Hipkins, got up and his contribution to the debate was to say that the bill is a Trojan horse for unitary authorities across the country. [Interruption] Respectful interjections, please, I say to Mr Hipkins; he should bear in mind that people are listening to me. He said the bill is a Trojan horse. Again, there was no contribution to the debate. He knows that his speech was absolute sensationalism. He had no grounds for claiming that. We went through this in the first reading, when he made that claim. He scaremongered amongst the people of Upper Hutt, but it was irrelevant. He was slapped around the ears and told to stop scaremongering, because he had no basis for it. In fact, there is no intention to do it. Again, it was irrelevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EMy friend and colleague Phil Twyford\u2019s contribution to the debate so far this evening was to say we should increase the bureaucracy\u2014spend more money. On the one hand we have the Hon George Hawkins talking about cost, and on the other hand we have his colleague and friend Phil Twyford, who is not so honourable at this stage, talking about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285da8e179d1b45af9244413c9362a3bb\u0022\u003ECarmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am a new member, but I think there is a Standing Order that says one cannot challenge the honour of another member. I think the member Paul Quinn over there just did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b075ceba648a412cad3718e712915b98\u0022\u003EHon members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f1a5e801a3a4a2a926370c98e45f89f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, I am about to rule. Let us have some quiet, please. I say to the member Carmel Sepuloni that she might be new but this is a robust Chamber and people can make robust comments. Paul Quinn said something about honour, but I did not think it crossed the line particularly. I cannot quite remember the phrase\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc63252982ec45129e2a2f49777b9901\u0022\u003EHon members\u003C/span\u003E: The less honourable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233c3354d04934ca8ae74a94aff06f4f9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: The less honourable or less than honourable. I did not think that was particularly offensive. I do not think Phil Twyford is wincing with the pain of it, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f0abf0d5714e83b05dd75d4bae816b\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: I do have a failing. An earlier speaker, Shane Jones, pulled me up for mispronouncing \u201Cnadir\u201D, so I have some human failings. In this particular case I meant to say that Mr Phil Twyford had not yet attained the honour of \u201CHonourable\u201D\u2014that is what I meant to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222200f36488cf4ec181ec8c85012affc4\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yet? Yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af6fefcda3ec417088635ac9df38b2fc\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: Not yet. The point is that on the one hand the man who does have the title \u201CHonourable\u201D, the Hon George Hawkins, says that the process is going to be expensive and is going to blow more money, yet on the other hand Phil Twyford, who does not yet have the title \u201CHonourable\u201D, wants more red tape, more bureaucracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b203eff50124444f9462d41d830e6ba4\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: A true Labourite!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022312b34cb2c124aa28458605ce9b44466\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, the nanny State! He slapped down an amendment with all the drama of Shakespearian behaviour and said again that nanny State phrase: we know best. Labour members talk about protecting assets. I tell them to let the people choose. Let the people choose. The people of Auckland will decide. They will elect people in their ward who will deliver to them what they want. But, no, the Opposition wants the nanny State to continue. I implore Opposition members that if they cannot contribute positively to the debate, then let us forget about it and call it quits, because we are going round in circles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e92d042b38724eddb2f8538d4268b381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e92d042b38724eddb2f8538d4268b381\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E A few things have been said since I last took a call, so I would like to go back to them. Whilst my colleague Lynne Pillay was speaking, the member for Maungakiekie talked about State housing and said Lynne Pillay needed to go with him to visit State housing. I want to point out a very clear point of difference. The point of difference is that, unlike the member for Maungakiekie, we would not put a billboard outside a State house and then agree with a policy that would sell State housing and leave those people out on the road, forced to pay market rentals when they cannot afford them. So that is the point of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI am thinking that perhaps we have given the National Government far too much credit. We have put the blame almost entirely on Rodney Hide. We keep saying that it is a case of the tail wagging the dog, but I think we have a very clear example here of the strategy of good cop, bad cop. I think we need to hold the Government to account on this. It is not a case of good cop, bad cop\u2014the bad cop being Mr Rodney Hide and the good cop being Mr John Carter and Mr John Key\u2014it is actually a classic example of bad cop, bad cop. There is no good cop in that game; I am sorry about that. I hope I have made that point very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI return to the issue of privatising assets. This is an example of Rodney Hide being put out there as if he is the one who wants to privatise assets. There is also the issue of M\u0101ori representation. Rodney Hide has been put out there as if he is the one denying M\u0101ori representation. Let us think about this. Let us all be very clear in this Chamber about who the leader of the Government is. Is it Rodney Hide? No, it is John Key. He is responsible for this. Let us make that fact very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223df7920a75e448e19e30dd566f0a1e19\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Good girl! She wins the prize.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4e137d9220b4dcdb542946ffd6ebf4b\u0022\u003ECARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Sandra Goudie for that. That interjection was as intelligent as she usually is. Let us talk about the privatisation of assets, which we talked about earlier. The Government says that it is not its responsibility. Mr John Carter says the Government has no responsibility for the privatisation of assets. We are looking at $28 billion worth of assets in Auckland, and the Government says it is not responsible for them. It is very clear that a right-wing agenda will be driving the sale of these assets, and the Government hopes that that right-wing agenda will be driven by its candidate for mayor, Mr John Banks, the former National MP. So Government members need to take ownership of the fact that it is not just Mr Banks\u2019 agenda and it is not just Mr Rodney Hide\u2019s agenda; it is actually the National Government\u2019s agenda to privatise assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhat effect will this have on people in Auckland? It will have a huge effect. National members\u2019 interests are all in business. They are not interested in the everyday New Zealander out there using the parks and the libraries, and getting free access to swimming pools because the Manukau City Council makes good revenue from not having sold its public assets. Those are not the things that the National Government is interested in. National members are not worried about kids from low socio-economic areas who do not necessarily have $1, $2, or $3 to throw towards going for a swim. They are not worried about those kids. They are quite happy with a one-size-fits-all approach. National members think that whatever people in Remuera pay is what people in \u014Ctara should pay, as well. The privatisation of assets is on the National Government\u2019s agenda. It has a one-size-fits-all approach for the whole of Auckland. Whatever is happening in Remuera can happen in \u014Ctara, M\u0101ngere, and Waitakere. That is what National wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI go back to what I was saying about Mr Rodney Hide and the fact that he has been used as a scapegoat in regard to the denial of M\u0101ori representation in Auckland. It has been very clear that the National Government is not supportive of M\u0101ori, Pacific people, and other ethnic communities. I quote a former National MP whose name is Arthur Anae. Last year a Victoria University student did a master\u2019s thesis on minority representation in Parliament, and Arthur Anae was quoted as saying that he learnt the hard way that all the National Government cared about was minority groups with deep pockets. He learnt the hard way that National does not care about Pacific communities or M\u0101ori communities. Arthur Anae knew\u2014and he acknowledged it when he was interviewed for the thesis\u2014that he had made a mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022 data-id=\u00228c069abc3e2e42b890b324d1892b3b43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c069abc3e2e42b890b324d1892b3b43\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We have now been debating the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill for 13\u00BD hours, and in that time we have heard from members on the other side of the Chamber nothing but inane calls. There has hardly been a contribution of note. We should reflect that members opposite have had two salespeople spinning the same lines over and over again. It is noticeable that the tones of the Minister in the chair, John Carter, are now becoming a bit more dulcet. He is speaking very slowly, and he tells us he is the good guy; Nikki Kaye has repeated the same speech three or four times. For several hours members opposite said nothing. For several hours they took no calls. They sat there like stunned mullets. Then they came back\u2014[Interruption] The member should take a call, then we will know how the member feels about what we are saying. Then Government members started a series of inane calls. What did they say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9dd66338f2405f94828f362e5129a4\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: What did he have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d317470e8874f50882cbcca17adcf68\u0022\u003EDr RAJEN PRASAD\u003C/span\u003E: If the member listens I will soon tell her exactly what they have been saying. Mr Quinn, who was one of the last two speakers, took another unmemorable call. Let us put his speech aside. He will go and reread the definition of \u201Csocial well-being\u201D and I will quiz him again next time we are in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EA few minutes ago Mr Simon Bridges dared us to name the six things we have been asking for that came out in the consultation that have not been done. Well, here are at least six things. Time and time again submitters to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee asked for M\u0101ori seats. Members opposite have not listened; they are not here. There have been some inane conversations about one person, one vote, but nothing has happened. That is one of the things we asked for. Then there are the advisory boards. Time and time again submitters asked for advisory boards. I notice the Minister for Ethnic Affairs has still not taken a call to answer the challenge: what is her position in terms of the ethnic communities that want to be represented, that want to be on advisory boards? Pansy Wong has not taken a call to explain what her position is and neither has Mr Bakshi. He read his papers and took a break. Nothing else happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EThe third issue is the social issues board. That has been asked for; it was there in the submissions. But what have the members opposite done about it? They have done nothing. People asked for the guaranteed protection of our assets, and we have been talking about them, but we hear nothing from the other side of the Chamber on the guaranteed protection of our assets, which was the fourth thing. The fifth thing is to get the process right. Here are major constitutional issues, yet the members opposite have done nothing about the process issue. The members say they have listened, but the evidence is that the members have not listened. The select committee has brought back a report, and we have told members opposite time and time again the issues we take with it. Members from this side have led a very disciplined attack on this particular bill. Every member who got up talked about at least one issue that people outside have told us is important. The sixth thing is about powers of the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAny number of factors were raised by submitters throughout the weeks and months the select committee was out there. The members opposite say they have listened, but they have not listened. We do not see the results of them having listened here in the document before us. If National members had listened, we would not be arguing so vehemently against many of the proposals that have come back. We support the notion of fixing up the issues that come up in Auckland. But we will not compromise the interest of the people of Auckland, at all. We will not simply accept the ideas that they have brought back\u2014we will not at any cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003EAny number of things need to be fixed in this particular bill, but they have not been. We hear now the way in which this bill is being characterised in emails to us today: \u201CRodney Hide\u2019s super city time bomb set to explode grassroots democracy in New Zealand\u2019s largest city started ticking today,\u201D. If it is a time bomb, it will not be long before it actually comes to fruition. The promises that were given have not been delivered on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022641d3437d1924fa9a5af58aa126f2125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022641d3437d1924fa9a5af58aa126f2125\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I have listened to a couple of contributions, and thought I should make a response to one or two. I listened closely to George Hawkins, who has made quite an input into the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, as have others on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, such as Phil Twyford and Su\u2019a William Sio particularly. I listened to the last contribution from Dr Rajen Prasad, and to the six items that the member brought up. I thought I should respond to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOf the six items, the last one was the matter of the powers of the boards. Indeed, there is no debate about the powers of the boards. The Opposition has agreed with what the Government has done in regard to the powers of the boards. It is there in the commentary on the bill, if the member wants to read it. So we can cross that off the list, because the Opposition agrees with the Government on that. It may not agree with the number of members on boards, but it certainly does agree with the powers of the boards, and the members of the select committee will nod in agreement on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThen the member went from the sixth item. He left out the fifth item, so I am not sure what that was. The fourth issue that he raised was the matter of assets. Much has been made of this matter, and the figure $28 billion is quoted a lot. I think it is really important to start off by saying people should be concerned about assets, because there would be a huge negative impact if these assets were to be sold. One of the things we asked George Hawkins was about what the $28 billion worth of assets were\u2014how that was made up. He could not tell us that. Most members would be interested to know that the roads are nearly all of that $28 billion\u2014the roads are nearly all of the $28 billion. So, of course, it would be of great concern if the transport authorities started to sell them. Members can imagine the situation, can they not? We can imagine rolling up the tarseal to sell it\u2014where? To the Arabs, to India, or maybe to South Africa? I do not know where it would be sold to. But it is actually the roads that would be sold if the majority of assets were sold off. So it is a falsehood to say $28 billion worth of assets are for sale. There is nothing like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe other thing that should be taken into account is that a lot of those assets are the likes of the libraries, the halls, the parks, and the regional parks. There is no way that those will be sold. So it is silly to talk about $28 billion worth of assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBut I also say\u2014I said it before, and I say it again\u2014the local authorities have to go through quite a lengthy process, so the assets are secure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EItem No. 3 that was raised was the social issues board. We have already responded to the people of Auckland on that by saying there will be, and is, a social forum, which Paula Bennett is leading with people from Auckland. That has been accepted and is already starting to work. We are getting some response to it, and we will continue to develop it. So we can cross that item off the list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe member also talked about advisory boards. We have said that this matter is a work in progress. We have commented about it in the commentary on the bill, in the same way that the Labour Opposition has, as well. It is part of the work that we may well be doing as we move forward in the third bill. The advisory boards could well be part of that. We still have to work that issue up\u2014maybe, maybe not\u2014but it will be an ongoing issue to be addressed as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFinally, I say, because I know there is concern about this, there has been a great lot of debate around the M\u0101ori seats. I remind the Committee that the M\u0101ori seats were not in the bill that came to the select committee. They were not part of the bill that the select committee looked at, as members will recall. I am sure the member does recall that; he was on the select committee. The Government had already made the decision not to have M\u0101ori seats prior to that, so the select committee was not able to respond to that issue in the way that it wanted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI find it interesting that the member has listed\u2014well, I have only five things; he did say six, so I am not sure what the fifth thing was between the assets and the powers of the boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b92b8c17ae41b0985177cbbc58730f\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: I said the process was wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7f966eeee04a2d99bdcd8c28a7e9fb\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am afraid he did not enunciate that, so I could not write it down. The fact is, nevertheless, that we can go through that list and write all the items off. The Government has already covered those things. Indeed, there is another longer list of the things Labour does agree on, which it cannot debate because it agrees with the Government. That has been part of the problem. We have listened to the public and done many of the things that they wanted. We have responded to the public in a positive way. Labour has not been able to debate those matters, and that is why Labour\u2019s debate has been so poor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00222b08e729174e4b579f444ef0289c7eba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b08e729174e4b579f444ef0289c7eba\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to stand to take another call on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Was it not interesting that the Minister who chaired the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, John Carter, just told us that M\u0101ori seats were off the table before the bill even went to the select committee. I seem to recall the Prime Minister saying in response to the 7,000-strong h\u012Bkoi that marched in support of the M\u0101ori seats that the Government was listening. He said that the issue would be discussed at the select committee, that everything was open, that the select committee was the appropriate place to have that debate, and that the Government would not step on that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, John Carter, which statement was true: his account of events, which was that M\u0101ori seats were never on the table, because the select committee did not even have the jurisdiction or the mandate to discuss them, or the Prime Minister\u2019s account of events that the reason he was not going to make any commitment after the h\u012Bkoi in Auckland was that M\u0101ori seats were on the table at the select committee. Here, once again, we have doublespeak from National on the issue of M\u0101ori seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e8563b52194e84b946e418ab7fe377\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not unusual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6d66ca19d3431e8f86f65733662a8c\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is not unusual. Perhaps we should not be surprised, given that the Hon Dr Nick Smith stood in the Chamber when debating the previous Labour Government\u2019s Local Government Bill and said that having separate seats for M\u0101ori was \u201Capartheid\u201D. He said that Labour was introducing apartheid into New Zealand. Maybe we should not be surprised. I think the Minister in the chair needs to explain why his account of events does not match the Prime Minister\u2019s. Were M\u0101ori seats on the table to be considered at the select committee or not? He said they were not; the Prime Minister said they were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI also want to discuss the issue of the assets in Auckland. The Minister in the chair needs to be aware of the fact that there is not a lot of trust from the public on the issue of assets when it comes to National. That is right, and there is even less trust when we consider who is the Minister of Local Government. So although John Carter may throw his hands in the air and ask people to trust him because it is fine, parks and swimming pools will not be sold off, and that we do not need to worry, the fact is that the Government would sell parks and it would sell swimming pools. It has sold assets before, and it has made it clear that it supports the sale of assets. In 1999 Tony Ryall said that National did not support having State houses, and it had a policy of selling them off. So before the Associate Minister gets too precious about it he needs to appreciate that the people of Auckland probably want a little bit more certainty about the protection of their assets than that given in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat certainty could be given by the amendment in the name of my colleague Phil Twyford and by his member\u2019s bill, which has been pulled from the ballot. If there is no threat to the assets of Auckland, then what is the harm of adding a new clause to the bill that makes the situation clear and gives the people of Auckland that certainty? Maybe the Minister in the chair, John Carter, might want to answer the question of whether social housing is a core activity of local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924ec90c9fa74399a0e77fc985111a45\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s up to the people to decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e5ef840262485f829a7d00410aca88\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: He needs to provide some clarity around the issue. We have already had one council in New Zealand selling its social housing because it said that the Government had sent very strong messages that social housing is not a core activity of local government and that councils need to exit it. I wrote to the Minister of Housing, Phil Heatley, and the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide. I asked Phil Heatley whether he would clarify the Government\u2019s position on the issue because the Whakat\u0101ne District Council seemed to be under the impression that the Minister had told it that it needed to exit from social housing. He refused to answer the question. I said to him in the letter that he did not need to say it was a core activity and that all I was asking was that he clarify that he did not say it was not a core activity. That would have left a lot of wiggle room\u2014and we know that National Ministers like wiggle room so that they do not get into trouble down the track, especially the Minister in the chair, but we are not going to go down that path. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Housing refused to clarify whether he thought the largest third sector housing group in New Zealand, local government, should be involved in social housing. The Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, said exactly the same thing, but I guess we should not be surprised about that. The fact is that the Government needs to come clean on its priorities for local government and its expectations, because it is ramming through these bills under urgency, and it is not providing any protections for the people of Auckland, in terms of their assets. The Government is saying: \u201CTrust us; we know what we\u2019re doing. You don\u2019t need to worry.\u201D The people of Auckland are not so stupid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00225d14ef732f4e4bdf82d4019c3a8b72be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d14ef732f4e4bdf82d4019c3a8b72be\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to address some of the comments that the Minister in the chair, John Carter, raised earlier this evening, when he talked about the fact that the assets we were talking about in respect of my colleague Phil Twyford\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper were not the Government\u2019s property, were not owned by the Government, and therefore could not be sold by the Government. I wish to advise that Minister that nobody will settle for that as an answer. There is a huge naivety about that statement, which Aucklanders are past. Aucklanders are perfectly aware that even if the technicalities are that the Government does not own an asset, it is perfectly possible through this legislation for the Government to grease the wheels, if not the palms, of commerce so that it can take advantage of the fact that there are no democratic prohibitions on the sale of assets. There would be democratic prohibitions on the sale of local assets if my colleague Phil Twyford\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper were to be passed; there would be a referendum mechanism before the sale or privatisation of any asset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EA number of speakers on this side of the Chamber have drawn to the attention of members the kinds of assets that are at risk. They range across all of the things that we are familiar with and that we treasure in our local communities: public facilities like libraries, pools, reserves, and parks. Those things ought to be protected, and here is a moment, again, that shows that if this Government is to be known for anything, it will be known as the Government of lost opportunity. Here is an opportunity to protect these assets, and to put a democratic prohibition on the sale of these assets, or a democratic vehicle in the way of their sale, by local government and local authorities\u2014in this case, the Auckland super-city governance structure. It is not good enough simply to say the Government cannot sell these assets. It is important that the Government expresses an appreciation of the importance of these assets to communities right across the Auckland area and does something that allows for a degree of protection for them in this legislation, so the people of Auckland can feel some comfort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EGiven the opposition of Aucklanders to the sale of their assets, flannelling the country by saying that the Government cannot sell the assets anyway is not sufficient. Aucklanders have expressed overwhelmingly their opposition to the sale of assets. Clearly 85 percent of Aucklanders oppose selling water supply assets; 82 percent oppose selling assets such as parks, libraries, and recreation or entertainment centres; and 78 percent oppose the sale of transport assets, such as the port and airport, to private companies. On the basis of that kind of democratic representation, why would the Government not simply put in place one safeguard, one democratic check of a referendum, which would prevent the local authority that is emerging out of this legislation from putting assets of importance on the block and up for sale? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis is another lost opportunity, but, more than that, it is a sneaky way of ensuring National\u2019s agenda is put in place. Although it may not be the case in this term, let us make no mistake that if National is ever given a second term in office, its agenda will be to privatise as much as it possibly can. There is an agenda to do that and Rodney Hide happens to be the guide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022f474d4ea65a6425eb4b0fa4464569d43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f474d4ea65a6425eb4b0fa4464569d43\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E I want to focus on an area where there has not been much focus at all and that is the Local Government Commission powers. Once this bill is enacted, the functions and powers of the Local Government Commission will become increasingly important and increasingly relevant to everyone in this Chamber, let alone to everyone in the new Auckland unitary authority. The commentary on the bill noted that \u201CThe bill would empower the commission to undertake consultation before determining the city\u2019s boundaries, but does not specify a process or require any particular person to be consulted.\u201D; nor are there specific resources, as I understand it. I make a plea, and would urge, that the Local Government Commission have adequate resources and adequate powers to be able to consult fully, because its function of sorting out not only the northern and southern boundaries but the wards and the boards is going to be extremely important and probably extremely contentious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the majority report considers that the southern boundary of the city should remain as it is in the bill. The commentary went on to state: \u201CThe majority of us \u2026 believe that there is no need to amend the provisions governing the partition of Franklin, though we urge the commission to consider carefully retaining all of Pukekohe and Waiuku as part of the Auckland region, rather than splitting them each in two.\u201D Once again, I put on record that the Local Government Commission has that possibility and is able to do that freely and without difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut I would go further than that. I believe, undoubtedly, with the way that this bill has currently ended up in terms of the southern boundary, that catchment issues, Treaty issues, and development issues have overridden community interest issues to a certain extent. Therefore, I would very much urge the Local Government Commission to have flexibility in relation to the boundaries that are set out in this bill. There is the example of Buckland\u2014200 metres from Pukekohe. I was there on Saturday afternoon, helping to open the bowling season for the Buckland Bowling Club. Mr Mark Gosche\u2019s mum was there. She said to me that the people there want to be in Pukekohe, even though the Local Government Commission at present probably would not have that amount of flexibility. I think it is very important that the interpretation that it is able to exercise is fairly flexible. I want to put that on record so that when the commission goes about its very difficult task it is reminded that Parliament is basically in agreement with that, because the community of interest is very important wherever one is in the vast region of the new Auckland regional authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI will make some comments on Part 3, \u201CTransitional arrangements\u201D, and I do not think that anyone has talked about this before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4e53947396c411481016bdcf331e38a\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653ea5096f584c138461a6ebdf9b0f89\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is excellent. The member realised just how important this issue is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00224b940212709f4150ae8f244c3e1e8a78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b940212709f4150ae8f244c3e1e8a78\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I feel sorry for the member who just spoke, Dr Paul Hutchison, because he is advocating quite strongly to change the southern boundaries of Auckland, but the National Government\u2014his Government\u2014is not listening to him. I really feel sorry for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThere is no dispute that Labour supports the reformation of the Auckland governance structure. We have been upfront with that. We stated that right from the beginning. However, we say to the Government\u2014and I hope it is listening\u2014that the process has been flawed. It has been a sham in many respects, because the Government kept announcing decisions before the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee had even completed its work. The structure it has set up is undemocratic. It is a flawed governance structure for the biggest region in our nation. It would not be so bad if the Government was just tinkering around the edges of local government, but this is significant change. The Government will change the landscape, the shape, and the face of local government, and then, I suspect, it will roll it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, the Hon John Carter, made reference to the assets of local government and to the long-term council community plan. He said that each council would determine whether it sells its assets. That may be so, but every one of those assets is now currently being held in each of the local governments\u2014in Manukau, North Shore, Waitakere, Franklin, Papakura, and Rodney. Those assets are held by a group of councillors representing their particular region. Each of those regions will base its decisions on a certain philosophy. In Manukau, for example, where 18 councillors represent eight wards, we have always traditionally had a philosophy of holding on to our assets. That is the reason why we currently have 10 percent of shareholdings in Auckland International Airport. From those shares we have been able to fund our free swimming pools and support the development of activities for our young people, our libraries, and our sports fields. That is now at risk. All those assets\u2014not just those of Manukau but also those of Papakura, whose people told the select committee that they wanted to save Papakura\u2014have been put at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAll of those local government authorities have been snuffed out by the first bill, the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Bill, which was rammed through under urgency, and all those assets are now lumped under one structure. The Government is also getting rid of all the mayors, councillors, and community boards that currently exist, and it is giving full power, authority, and privileges to only 20 councillors. Those 20 councillors are supposed to represent the 1.4 million people of the Auckland region. That is undemocratic. I strongly feel, and the public holds this view, that this is a set-up by this Government to make it easier to get rid of the $28 billion worth of public assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EMembers of the select committee, which sat in Manukau and throughout the region, would have heard the strong voice of the people of Manukau argue strongly that they do not want to sell the airport shares. Those airport shares were funded by ratepayers. The numerous land tracts that exist in Manukau are funded and maintained by ratepayers in Manukau. We have borrowed money and we have paid off those loans, and I ask what will happen to that asset. That is the fear. The current structure being put up by the Government does not propose to protect those assets whatsoever. That is the fear that exists out in the community. Nothing being put into the governance structure has any protection whatsoever. The result of this structure, which we oppose, is an unbalanced model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c71351b3c67d44b8a46d077e7321564e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c71351b3c67d44b8a46d077e7321564e\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I am very, very pleased, as an Auckland electorate member of Parliament, to take up the invitation of my honourable friend George Hawkins and make a contribution to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. The thing that has struck me about Mr Hawkins\u2019 quite ingenuous and very humorous contributions is just how far out of touch he has become with his constituency. Let me tell members what the people of T\u0101maki\u2014my electorate\u2014are saying on the streets. They are saying that they have one simple message for the Government on Auckland governance: keep it simple and, above all else, get it right. They will not hold us accountable on little points of ideology and little arguments of detail, but they expect us to get it right. We know from National\u2019s record in Government that we will get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWhen I pull together the bulk of the Labour members\u2019 speeches during this long day, it seems that for hour after hour all Labour members wanted to do was to name members on this side of the Chamber and suggest that they will lose their seats. Well, I have bad news for the Labour Party. There are a lot of first-term members in this House for whom this will be their sole term, and they are all on the other side. They are all on the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWhen I talk to the people of T\u0101maki, I know that they are not really so interested in engaging on the detail of Auckland governance. On Monday they were far more interested in talking to me about Harley Davidsons. At the recent Labour Party conference they did not see a fresh-faced, energetic, enthusiastic young leader arriving to inspire a conference; they saw a slightly sad Midnight Cowboy - type figure disappearing into the sunset. He will take the Labour Party with him into the sunset, not to be heard of again, with the attitudes of that party towards the governance of Auckland. Aucklanders understand that we have to get the city right for the good of the city, for the good of the 1.4 million people who live there, and for the good of New Zealand. Out there on the streets of my constituency of T\u0101maki there is very little patience for the Labour Party\u2019s mucking around. People do not get it, and I suggest that at least one Labour member get on his or her feet and try to give a coherent, logical speech to help the people of Auckland to understand why the Labour Party has become irrelevant to their future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EAucklanders like the idea of one mayor. There would be no more hiding behind other mayors or behind the regional council. There would be one mayor responsible and held accountable. They like the idea of 20 councillors. I am very disappointed in Mr Sio\u2019s contribution. It showed just how out of touch he must be with his electorate. They like the idea of 20 councillors elected in wards with which they identify. Aucklanders see that as real, genuine democracy at work. They also like the 20 to 30 community boards. For the first time, they see some real grassroots democracy in their communities. That is why they find the Labour Party\u2019s attitude so mystifying. There is something else Aucklanders like; they have come to respect, and have confidence in, the role of Mr John Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022 data-id=\u00226d68a2ab6e4d41d6805e59d5caa0da18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d68a2ab6e4d41d6805e59d5caa0da18\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I will comment on the speech of previous speaker, Allan Peachey, because I do not think he has been listening to what the Labour Party\u2019s policy has been. Labour\u2019s policy all along has been to support having a unitary authority for Auckland, with one mayor and a form of local government that represents the communities of interest. What we also want, though, is for this new law to be a good law. We do not want a bill that is ad hoc and just brings up whatever issue is current at the moment. We have seen, for example, the notion of M\u0101ori seats demolished before the bill even got to Parliament. We have seen half of the district of Rodney taken out and then put back in again. This whole bill is a shambles. It is adhockery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EThe number of community boards proposed by the royal commission was six. This Government talked about having 20 to 30. The Labour Party has been talking about having 14 to 20. The point is that the boards should reflect communities of interest, and the key issue here is how to determine those communities of interest. A lot of those communities of interest have been referred to the Local Government Commission for a decision on how that will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe would like to think that the Local Government Commission is able to hear the public, and for that reason George Hawkins\u2019 amendment is on the Table. The reason we are here today is to debate policy that will enable this bill to be much better. George Hawkins\u2019 amendment proposes that the public be consulted over the critical details in determining the boundaries of the Auckland Council region, the wards, and the local boards. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. It enables Aucklanders to have real say as the Local Government Commission decides on the way that the communities of interests will go forward. We should support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EWe have heard from John Carter in the course of this debate that this bill is a work in progress\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877948ea289d4f469ee017094c57dbad\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CPro-gress\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6c8e3216c745278dbb9f33fdce5811\u0022\u003EDAVID SHEARER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or progress. It is a bit late to be talking about a work in progress as we are sitting here listening to the last parts of the legislation being debated in Parliament, when we know that this Government will not take any notice of the changes that are being put forward. Despite the fact that we have put amendments on the Table that will improve this legislation immeasurably, we know that the Government will not take any notice of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003ELabour has looked at having a 5-year review, and Phil Twyford has put an amendment to that effect on the Table. A 5-year review would look at this legislation again. It is a good amendment and we should be supporting it. Labour has proposed what the royal commission recommended about social well-being, and we have put forward an amendment to that effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EBetween 2006 and 2016 the Pacific population in Auckland will increase by 23 percent. Pacific Islanders will become about 16 percent of the total population. That is why Su\u2019a William Sio has put forward an amendment to have a Pacific Advisory Board. There will be a 58 percent increase in the Asian population, which will become 25 percent of Auckland\u2019s population. We have put forward an amendment in the name of Raymond Huo that will set up an Asian Advisory Board. This is what is happening in Manukau, in Waitakere, and in North Shore. It makes good sense. It improves this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dfa851f0-ef7b-4834-bc41-1b3b645a3495\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford has put forward an amendment proposing that the number of councillors goes from 20 to 25. Again, it is another good amendment. It is a reasonable suggestion that will enable better democracy to be brought to this bill. However, it is not likely to succeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3d645f973d7463db1541fdc56547f09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3d645f973d7463db1541fdc56547f09\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I am very disappointed with Mr Shearer\u2019s speech because he said that the Government has not been paying any attention or giving any regard to the amendments to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill that have been put on the Table. I have to say that nothing could be further from the truth. We have gone through those amendments with a fine-tooth comb. What surprised us as a Government was how appalling those amendments are. I wish that Mr Shearer and, indeed, the movers of these amendments had studied them. For example, the Hon George Hawkins\u2014who was a very good mayor, is a very good MP, and was a very good Minister; I have high regard for him\u2014popped down here with an amendment that must have been done by the research unit. I do not know whether Mr Shearer studied that one, but Mr Hawkins wanted to shift the southern boundary of the super-city. He would shift it down to the Waikato River catchment boundary. I kid members not! It would have taken in all of Hamilton, Taup\u014D, all of the national park, and Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022545a153bf96247a5b4e8c1ab7c41e65c\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: And Hawke\u2019s Bay!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4cd6f8e3137421686b2e84f5b6bba5b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: And Hawke\u2019s Bay. Mr Shearer says that the Government has not taken any notice of these amendments. I have to tell him that I went to see Mr Hawkins and I said I had taken a great deal of interest in his amendment. He had to quickly pull it in the hope that Phil Goff, his leader, would not notice it and in the hope that Phil Twyford would not vote for it. Mr Shearer\u2019s party, the Labour Party, proposed an amendment here tonight under urgency to put the upper half of the North Island into the super-city, all the while campaigning that we are setting up the super-city by subterfuge and without involving the people. I ask Mr Shearer whom he consulted in Hamilton on its becoming a member of the super-city. Did George Hawkins have a meeting in Hamilton to discuss whether the people wanted it to be a member of the super-city? I do not think so. Did Phil Goff have a meeting in Taup\u014D about whether the people would like it to be a member of the super-city? I do not think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMr Shearer walked into the Chamber and suggested that the Government had not studied the amendments that have been put up. That is piffle. He walked into the Chamber and said we have not been consulting with the people, when with a cavalier attitude the Labour members were proposing an amendment, sponsored by George Hawkins\u2014heaven knows what he was thinking\u2014to put the upper half of the North Island into the super-city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5b095c23e844fab43ca85f772e89dc\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We are in the Committee stage of the bill. I know we are having a broad debate, but the rules of the Committee are quite clear: the bill and the amendments that are on the Table should be debated. Amendments that are not on the Table are not debatable at this stage of the debate. They can be debated at the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d16c3642b9c4dcd90e53664ebaa9ec5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. This matter has come up before. There has been wide debate on the particular subject the Minister is referring to. An amendment has been put up and he is responding to comments made. I am happy with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dcb19967bb94c8cb23e11282e6bdb81\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I can understand why the Labour members do not want to debate their own amendments. They are so embarrassed that they are withdrawing their amendments; they then have the hit man Trevor Mallard saying that they do not want to talk about the amendments that are on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c18d6a1bd60948b68a5b21db7626026c\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Were you listening to that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268159f7365e34427834ccfe6d77fe669\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled that the subject has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f9715f117ca4910aff1ca58dd5822ff\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, to the comment the Minister made, which I took offence to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205f7378e5a741c29bd242ef6f7a8615\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry. What was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa0712722f946c391c538db5fbe69cf\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I took offence at the Minister\u2019s description of me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279a74d9401dd4c45a5b4a5af9b362aeb\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I said he was a hit man. He has been convicted of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbe08a08d964c83a03b9e32e135dd66\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has taken offence. I ask you to withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b2e896d9564b63879dec5bd3d4b0a1\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw it. Boy, those members are sensitive about their own amendments!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022916b351402db423e9783aaff68f034f4\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We would like the Minister to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff86d89258749ffada3041fa98ebf0d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I asked the member to withdraw, which he did. I did not ask him to apologise; I asked him to withdraw the comment. He did so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022396b0f64f1b5437cb1f8489223715f1c\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Let me get this right. Mr Dave Shearer walked down to the Chamber and said that the Government was not taking Labour\u2019s amendment seriously. I stood up here to discuss that amendment\u2014having spent some private time with Mr Hawkins explaining why his amendment was wrong and why he withdrew it\u2014but then Mr Mallard raised a point of order so that we cannot talk about Labour\u2019s amendments. I have to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b116639ba6e040c6925e961306c75c57\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211d3292abab4d5c90744b9672686c65\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: What now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b546abfb00d447f7b387bc8b6ff0cd23\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I think that member is affected. When points of order have been dealt with they are not allowed to be referred to. It has now happened four times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a74f22d4e64b899015a8b86179d065\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It would be absurd if, having been granted leave for a wide-ranging debate, we now found ourselves constrained only to matters that the Opposition thinks suitable for debate in the Committee stage. That is unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e3b09a2fde349d5bc717bf4b6209fb5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. As I have mentioned on two occasions now, the amendment has been subject to debate during the course of the evening. An amendment was tabled, and the Minister is responding to comments made by an Opposition member. I have ruled that to be in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226173c40728be4a6ebf504630a6164a19\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I apologise if I did not make my point of order clear. I am not debating your ruling but the fact that the Minister is continuing to refer to it, which is clearly outside Speakers\u2019 rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6fc81f5dbc8445a99ffbb21190a56d6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not accept that, Mr Mallard. An amendment has been tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a65f553ee04d299fa5ff1bdf0b29f5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He is referring to your ruling and the point of order. He is not allowed to refer to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d31dbc82cfd9432ba5c3dd08c13ee9d1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I have obviously missed the point. I apologise for that. Let us continue. The member has 47 minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e66e80044443a780d00e7438bee430\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Forty-seven minutes\u2014thank you. I am just getting warmed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c6e114d9f7490f970e2de67d386428\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: I can see that there was a faux pas on my part. The member has 47 seconds remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8071592b8440e687fb90a0d9ea5e2b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I think the point to make is that I and members on this side of the Committee\u2014and, indeed, the country\u2014had forgotten how cavalier Labour members are with the laws that they bring into Parliament. We had forgotten the lengths to which Labour members will go in order to shut down speech, whether in the wider community or in the Chamber. They have come in here and said we are not addressing their amendments, but then tried to shut down the debate. They have not learnt their lesson. A few more apologies are needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7cb5ff07254d2eb377a9fb3c5b29ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7cb5ff07254d2eb377a9fb3c5b29ef\u0022\u003EHon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will get back to the substance of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, and move away from that rather bullying tirade from the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Local Government. I will tell a little story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIn one\u2019s professional life in politics one meets a few people along the way who turn one round and make one think quite differently. I was called to the household of an old former Mayor of Rotorua and the first chair of the Bay of Plenty Regional Council, John Keaney, who is a very dear old friend. He asked me to get him the Shand report. It was lovely to go to his home, and we talked for a long time. He was a very reasonable man. We talked about the Shand report and he said to me that we had an opportunity to get right the future shape and governance of Auckland city. I absolutely agreed with him. He was a very wise man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EOne of the things he said about the Shand report was that, for goodness\u2019 sake, we should make sure that M\u0101ori representation is factored into any future shape or form of Auckland governance. He supported the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Bill in 2001. John Keaney was a wonderful man; he stood out. He knew the Bay of Plenty, he knew about the demographics of it, and he knew about the power of representation of M\u0101ori, who were disempowered, and he knew about the difference they would make by participating at the top level\u2014not on advisory boards. At that stage we had advisory boards. He spoke out in support of Judge Trapski, another wise and learned man from the bay, on Auckland\u2019s governance. I never forgot that. His politics were not my politics, but he was a man who always saw the big picture of doing the right thing for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe have before us an amazingly good opportunity, and we all want the same thing. I never thought I would agree with Allan Peachey in this House, but I believe that we all want to get Auckland governance right, because it is the powerhouse for New Zealand and it affects all of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe thing that makes me really sad, as I have been reflecting over the nearly 15 hours of debate in this Chamber, is that the M\u0101ori MPs from National have not felt strong enough to come down to the Chamber, not be muzzled by Rodney Hide and their leader, John Key, and speak out on M\u0101ori representation. We have had an open and free debate here. I was excited when Simon Bridges stood up. He is the MP for Tauranga; he was not elected because he is M\u0101ori, at all. He did not speak out about M\u0101ori representation, which was such a disappointment. I saw Paul Quinn and I told him to go down to the Chamber and to not let them hold him back. M\u0101ori MPs should speak up\u2014kia kaha\u2014for M\u0101ori representation in the bill, because unless they can convince those colleagues on the other side who I know are sensitive to the issue that we must have M\u0101ori representation at the top level of governance, at the table of the Auckland super-city, then we will fail a large part of the demographic of Auckland. The bill will fail for that reason, and I do not want that to happen. I thought Hekia Parata and Georgina te Heuheu would come down to the Chamber. They are both National Party list members. I thought that because of their strong representation on M\u0101ori issues, they would come down and speak. As the debate nears its end we feel great disappointment that none of those members have come down to the Chamber and spoken out on this issue, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EYet they have a leader in John Key who said his door is always open, who said he is open to considering the issue as the bill comes before the House. This Government, which said that it would be aspirational for the future of New Zealand, has failed the people of Auckland\u2014and in that respect has failed New Zealanders\u2014in not taking this wonderful opportunity to have M\u0101ori representation in some form. Labour did not prescribe the number of seats; we thought two seats. We did not argue whether they should be held by mana whenua or tangata whenua, which the Minister in the chair gave a wonderful diatribe about. We just said that that demographic of this huge super-city, which we are all so proud of, should be represented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI want to explain why Labour feels strongly about M\u0101ori representation. Most of the indicators of social well-being\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7132ef89ecf47c086e0c316b17c242f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7132ef89ecf47c086e0c316b17c242f\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry to, again, have to correct the Labour members. Ms Chadwick gave a speech about the Shand report. She said she went to see this person to talk with him about the Shand report, and about how good it was. It was not a bad report, actually. What was sad about the Shand report was that the previous Labour Government did nothing with it. It spent the money and got the Shand report in 2007, then sat on it and did nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI also have to say that Ms Chadwick has got herself in a terribly confused state at this time of night. I do not know what she has been up to, but the Shand report had no mention of M\u0101ori seats whatsoever. So quite how she had a conversation about the Shand report, that included talk about M\u0101ori seats, I do not know. What we are discovering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51683feb302456eab6e41710562d94f\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say M\u0101ori seats. The member is misreporting what I said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299fe93c1b4ea4248b68936031ad3bf50\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I can point the member to her Hansard. She has now forgotten what she said 5 minutes ago in her speech. She can go straight to her Hansard and see that she was discussing how the Shand report had mention of M\u0101ori seats. It did not; it was about rating. The report was nothing to do with M\u0101ori seats. It is a pointed reminder of another thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db5a74a33f3b46eaaab54605d09a9446\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What an ignorant Minister. He should just listen for a change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be11aa1b7c74fd99a01ce7247d46eb6\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe the Hon Trevor Mallard along with Mr Phil Goff should work their apologies a bit harder. They should apologise for trying to recreate history, because that is what that MP, Steve Chadwick, just did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022 data-id=\u00224833e2132f4542798313d799418ec25b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224833e2132f4542798313d799418ec25b\u0022\u003ECAROL BEAUMONT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I acknowledge the work of Phil Twyford in the area of seeking protection for Auckland\u2019s assets. It is very important that we listen to what Aucklanders are saying, and, frankly, members have talked to many people, surveys have been done, and it is quite clear that Aucklanders want their assets to be protected. They do not trust the Government in that regard, especially given the position that Rodney Hide holds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI want to move on to another amendment that Phil Twyford has put forward: to insert new clause 25 in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. It relates to providing protections for the people who work in local government. Again, this is about listening to Aucklanders. A range of submissions were received by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee on this issue, and a number of people strongly expressed their concerns about the very large Auckland local government workforce of over 6,000 workers, who are feeling very insecure at the moment about what these changes mean for them and their families. The Government has not provided any certainty to those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI remind members of some of the submissions, because quite significant players in local government said the Government needed to deal with the issue of providing protection for workers. The Devonport Community Board and the North Shore City Council, on one of the days I sat in on the select committee, made very strong submissions in that regard. They recognised that the quality of service delivery is absolutely dependent on the workforce. Nobody would disagree with that. If the workforce in local government is insecure, or if its numbers are cut dramatically, then that will affect the quality of service that is provided to Aucklanders. As Allan Peachey and others have said, this bill is about success for Auckland. Well, getting it right in terms of the people who provide the service is part of achieving success for Auckland. The North Shore City Council submission covered the transfer and treatment of local government staff, and stated: \u201CWe believe that the transfer of staff from existing territorial local authorities to the Auckland Council and Watercare Services Limited should happen contemporaneously rather than be staged over time, in order that the movement of staff happens in a coordinated way.\u201D It went on to say: \u201CCouncil staff are entitled to a degree of certainty and security in their employment relationship in a period of significant change.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe treatment of these local government workers is fundamentally important, and one can understand why that is the case. I am sure all of us can understand why these workers are feeling insecure. In fact, the level of insecurity is not just about the changes\u2014and they are very significant\u2014but also because they are happening at a time of recession, when unemployment is rising and many other people are struggling to make ends meet. Those council workers do not want to join those people. So what did we do? A couple of months ago the Mayor of Auckland City suggested that 40 percent of those workers might lose their jobs. That was very helpful! But no assurance has been provided to those workers. Maybe somebody on the other side of the Chamber will jump up and tell me that the Government will support Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment, because of course the Government will want to provide certainty to those workers, or a member may say the Government will cover that issue in the third bill. I hope to hear that, but let us see what happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EThe reality is that those workers deserve to be treated fairly. I would have thought that it would be worth taking account of what happened in similar reorganisations in other countries. Certainly, the royal commission looked at local government reorganisation in Queensland, and it saw that there was a very clear process and that undertakings were given to the workforce when there was very significant restructuring. Basically, there was a commitment that no worker would lose his or her job for a period of 3 years, as a result of that reorganisation. That process went very smoothly. The quality of the delivery of services by local government was maintained. The workforce had security, and workers\u2019 conditions of employment were just transferred over. If we compare that with the situation in South Australia, which also carried out a very significant reform of local government, we find the same things did not happen there. Very early on there were redundancies, then there was severe understaffing at certain levels. The effects of that flowed through into the level of services provided to the people of South Australia. We should not repeat those mistakes in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223facbb72-b3b0-464b-b24d-e6de0616f323\u0022\u003EI speak in favour of the amendment from Phil Twyford that is on the Table. It does a number of things. First, it states that we should include in the bill the principle of being a good employer. That sounds as though it is pretty important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00228e64f9e0cc164bb9a1da1684e880ecbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e64f9e0cc164bb9a1da1684e880ecbe\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to set the record straight on a couple of points. First of all, members opposite have said that the Government does not care about social issues. Well, the Government strongly believes that the new Auckland Council has a fundamental responsibility to address social issues across the region and has announced the establishment of an Auckland Social Policy Forum. The membership, if members opposite are not aware, will comprise the new mayor, the Minister for Social Development and Employment, the council committee chairs, and some representatives from the local boards. Members opposite need to give that forum a chance to work before they start to criticise it. It is being set up in good faith and let us see how it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe other issue is about Asian and Pacific Island advisory bodies. The commentary on the bill has a substantial section on council engagement with communities. I will quote from it: \u201CWe suggest that advisers or advisory committees or bodies could be appointed to work alongside the Council, particularly for youth, M\u0101ori and other ethnic communities, such as Pacific and Asian communities, environmental groups, and people with disabilities. We believe strong advisory bodies are needed to improve participation by these groups, and to ensure that their voices are heard on issues affecting them.\u201D I want to talk about the mayor, but, quite frankly, if the new mayor is smart\u2014and I am sure that the mayor will be very smart\u2014he or she will take this sort of advice and will not ignore it. In fact the mayor will have to be quite an exceptional individual. I am sure he or she will be a very, very strong leader and will have that vision to bring all the regions and people of Auckland together, and that includes all those groups I just talked about. It is quite a responsibility. When the royal commission canvassed opinion and consulted widely, it felt there was consensus that Aucklanders wanted one council. They were sick of traffic congestion, and they wanted Auckland to move ahead as one, so there was certainly consensus there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI felt I was very privileged to be part of the select committee that went to all the regions of Auckland, listened to the submitters, and heard their concerns and fears for the future. The individual who is chosen to be the Auckland mayor will, I am sure, step up and make sure those communities are well represented\u2014because Aucklanders\u2019 main concern was that they would be ignored and not represented. That was the common theme running through all the communities we visited around Auckland. Changes have been made between the original bill and the current bill that we have in front of us, and those changes will allow the mayor to undertake the role more effectively. The mayor will be able to appoint the deputy mayor and the chairperson of the committees of the council, determine the committees\u2019 structure, lead the development of plans, policies, and budgets for consideration by the council, and establish and maintain the office of the council. In respect of that office, the Auckland Governance Legislative Committee recommends that 0.2 percent of the council\u2019s budgeted operational expenditure be set as a budget for that office. That will allow a significant amount of money, between $2 million and $3 million, to employ independent advisers and specialist advice. This was done so that the office of the mayor could have some independence, and because we wanted to strike a balance between the power of the mayor and of the chief executive, and we think we have done that with those particular changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI have been quite disappointed to hear tonight comments that the local boards do not have powers. I know that members on this side have stood up and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a2866b992e40029b8549f54b5bfe00\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t. Read the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be7205807f040a89224e03cbf528ec3\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: They do have the power. I will tell the member what the local boards will be doing, so I ask him to please listen. These local boards will not be the community boards that we have currently, or the councils that we have currently. They will be new entities that will have power and status supported by this legislation. They will have significant responsibilities. The original bill has been changed significantly to beef up the powers of the boards. They will have dedicated budgets to provide for local services. They will be required to listen to, and consult with, their communities. The local boards will be required to make a plan and will be able to propose by-laws that, provided they are truly local, will be adopted. If appropriate, the by-laws could even be enforced by the local boards. This is all about empowering local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00225642aafc4bbb4febb08a16eb6269d034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225642aafc4bbb4febb08a16eb6269d034\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I was not considering taking another call in this debate until, during the contribution from my colleague Steve Chadwick, the member Sandra Goudie made quite a telling interjection. When Steve Chadwick was discussing the issue of M\u0101ori seats and asking why the member for Tauranga, Simon Bridges, had not come down to the Chamber to speak out on it, Sandra Goudie said: \u201CBecause he won his seat based on merit. He didn\u2019t have it handed to him on a plate.\u201D Well, I want to ask Sandra Goudie whether she thinks the member Rahui Katene won her seat on merit. Does Ms Goudie think Ms Katene had it handed to her on a plate? I can tell that member, who has gone very quiet all of a sudden for a member who is usually very raucous, that the members of the M\u0101ori seats on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council won their seats on merit. They were democratically elected in contested elections. They had nothing handed to them on a plate. They absolutely won those seats on merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI ask Sandra Goudie whether she stands by those comments that she interjected during my colleague Steve Chadwick\u2019s contribution. Does she stand by them? Look at that! Of course she does. That is the very crux of the issue of M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc9fa66614a247b7a8b9fbf6fc859733\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69357554a1c4a828bc159936ae426e2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely stands by them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022427b1ad74c7d41e8b623f30145d68469\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: She absolutely stands by her comments that M\u0101ori members who stand in M\u0101ori constituencies do not win their seats on merit but have them handed to them on a plate. I know that the member Rahui Katene worked very hard to win her seat and that Parekura Horomia and Nanaia Mahuta worked very hard to win their seats. I thank Sandra Goudie very much for telling us in the dying stages of this Committee debate the real reason why National opposes M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland Council: National does not believe that those seats would be won based on merit. That is incredibly offensive, and not just to the M\u0101ori Party members of Parliament, whom her party is sucking up to, pretending that they respect them and have a mana-enhancing relationship with them. When it comes down to it, Sandra Goudie and the National Government do not believe that the M\u0101ori Party members won their seats on merit. They believe those seats were handed to them on a plate. Sandra Goudie seems to think that her seat means a little bit more than a M\u0101ori constituency seat. She thinks that she actually had to earn her seat, but members for M\u0101ori seats do not really have to earn them, because it is a little bit easier to win them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThis comes down to the core of the issue: a M\u0101ori seat is still one person, one vote. M\u0101ori people on the general roll do not get two votes. They do not get to vote for two MPs; they get to vote for only one MP. What is it about that that the National Government finds so offensive? The issue is representation, as I said earlier this morning. I doubt that Sandra Goudie, if there was not a M\u0101ori MP also servicing her area, would go on to marae, go to hui, and speak in M\u0101ori, so that those constituents would get the same level of representation as her other constituents. This debate is about M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland Council. It is about representation. It is about constituents who are M\u0101ori and whose preferred forum for consultation is on marae, in hui, and speaking in M\u0101ori deserving the same level of representation as constituents whose preferred medium of consultation is at a Rotary meeting or in an electorate office, and speaking in English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI want to know what the National Government finds so offensive about that idea that it feels the need to desperately oppose having any M\u0101ori seats on the Auckland Council. I wonder how many hui Sandra Goudie has held in her electorate with her M\u0101ori constituents, speaking in M\u0101ori, since she was elected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56914fc2948469d9cd55474803df173\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: None.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2da0582f544fb1839e008b009c9e29\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That is why we have M\u0101ori seats\u2014to ensure that those New Zealanders for whom that is their preferred medium of consultation get the same level of representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217534cc1a6d24c92ab65ea479d1fe4dd\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Many meetings. Anybody can come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9f54d5342d43cb8b00ba61d7e68e67\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sandra Goudie can harp away at me right now. I cannot even hear what she is saying any more, but she has revealed the truth. National does not believe that M\u0101ori electorate members are elected based on merit. Ms Goudie and her party believe that those members are a little bit inferior\u2014or maybe a lot inferior, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt\u2014because although she won her seat based on merit and Simon Bridges won his seat based on merit, those M\u0101ori members did not win their seats based on merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ac97cbf2f34dc5a691548e90fe5fdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ac97cbf2f34dc5a691548e90fe5fdd\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I want to bring a counter view to Moana Mackey\u2019s diatribe from across the Chamber this evening. I will do that by bringing a provincial perspective to the debate; in particular, it is the perspective of H\u0113nare O\u2019Keefe, who is a councillor on the Hastings District Council. I will talk about him in detail, because his example brings quite a bit of perspective. This man won M\u0101ori representation through the traditional route of democracy. He stood up against every other candidate for the Hastings District Council, won through, and now has ongoing representation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will put forward my particular view on this issue. I am pretty clear about my views on M\u0101ori representation, not only in Auckland but elsewhere around the country. Firstly, I agree that there is under-representation of M\u0101ori on local body councils, but I do not believe that guaranteed seats are the way to achieve the outcome we are seeking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe same issue presented itself to women 30 or 40 years ago, and women represent 50 percent of the electorate. When 50 percent of the electorate did not have representation on local body councils, did we go out and make particular seats for women? No, we did not. Society clearly had to change. Women clearly needed more representation on local body councils. Society changed, and over time more and more women were elected to local body councils. Now we see the flavour of the country represented at a local body level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EOn that basis, I am confident that if good M\u0101ori candidates stand with good support from their colleagues and friends, they will be elected. I started with the case of H\u0113nare O\u2019Keefe, who stood and got the second-highest vote in Flaxmere. He told me\u2014and this is a very important point\u2014that he had limited campaign resources and his budget for his campaign was under $1,000. We have heard throughout the Committee stage that the only way someone standing in a local body election can win through is to be extremely rich or extremely influential. That is not actually the case. A local body election can be won with a limited budget through getting out there. The great thing about H\u0113nare O\u2019Keefe is that he has proved his worth through hard work, having the hui that Ms Mackey talked about, and representing his people, thus making sure he will be re-elected. I guarantee that when he stands as part of the democratic process during the next election, he will be successful and will come through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EA poll held recently in Auckland was indicative in respect of the number of Aucklanders who wanted to see M\u0101ori seats. The result was high: 45 percent of Aucklanders, if I am not incorrect, wanted to see M\u0101ori seats in Auckland. I put it to members that if as many Aucklanders as that are keen to see M\u0101ori seats, then I would suggest they would be more than happy to vote for good M\u0101ori candidates. They will stand up. A renaissance throughout this country is seeing much more focus on M\u0101ori culture and tikanga throughout our communities. I believe that if good M\u0101ori stand for these seats, they will have a very good chance of being elected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI do not buy the idea that M\u0101ori cannot afford a decent campaign. That is rubbish. If M\u0101ori protesters are able to put together a good protest\u2014and I say good on them for doing that\u2014I believe that they can put their energy and passion behind a good campaign. That is my challenge to the other side of the Chamber. At the next local body elections, members opposite should put their energy behind M\u0101ori candidates, and make sure they have good finance and are best prepared to stand up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5158280314b4c4d89f172a8c00ec112\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the poor M\u0101ori!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220acaae7e2e542de8449c74b2b7849b4\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is called supporting one\u2019s colleagues. It is called getting in behind them and giving them the best chance to get up there. People like H\u0113nare O\u2019Keefe can win in a democratic process under the current system. We do need more M\u0101ori representation at the local body council level. But I believe that with good campaigns and strong support they can be as successful as anyone else who stands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd14f084620d442da4de19eda568c48e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd14f084620d442da4de19eda568c48e\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We started this debate yesterday. I was one of the early speakers in this Committee stage, and I referred to the 6,000 staff\u2014citizens, voters, and workers of Auckland\u2014who are facing awful uncertainty and lay-offs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a268766c2af4fcf811088ed430b37f0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d17b9ab10914753b75ee801df311052\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. In all of the 15 hours that we have been debating the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, I have not heard one comment from the other side of the Chamber about those staff and the huge challenges facing them. There have been no guarantees from this Government. There has been no reassurance about those workers\u2019 positions. That tells those of us on this side of the Chamber that the Government does not care about 6,000 workers and their families in Auckland. It does not care; otherwise it would have come to the party, and Minister Rodney Hide and the National-Act Government would have provided a firm guarantee that staff would move to the new council, and that local government services would not be cut. We have not heard that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber, as my colleague Carol Beaumont said earlier, we are moving an amendment that will provide protection for the staff. We want it written into this legislation, and we want it to be part of the setting up of the new council. We tried to include such protection in the first bill, the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Bill, and the Government voted it down. That was an appalling message to those 6,000 workers. It was an awful message that resonated right around the councils. Those workers have to carry on their work and provide services, day in, day out. The message they got from the debate on the first bill was that this Government does not care. Now the Government has a second chance to put something in this bill to prove that it does care about the local government workers in Auckland. We want to ensure that the Government guarantees those jobs and the terms and conditions of those workers during the transition to the new Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe have to keep Auckland working during this transition process. If there are no guarantees, if workers lose confidence, which they are doing as they are expected to pick up more and more work as people leave, as they are required to fit in with the sinking-lid policy that is already being applied, our city of Auckland will grind to a halt. It will to stop working. The Government has never understood how important those people who do the work are to keeping Auckland working. Unfortunately, the Government thinks that these workers should just keep on hanging on, and that they should hang in there. You know, there is a recession, so they are lucky to have jobs. After all, they are just a bunch of bureaucrats, so who cares? Those workers keep trying to do what they are doing, because they believe in what they do, and in the quality of the service they provide to Auckland citizens. They hope the Government will do the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs I said before, the Auckland Transition Agency is not replacing workers as they leave, so the workers are already carrying extra workloads. Fixed-term employment agreements are coming in, as are external contractors. In addition to the 6,000 workers who are employed by the councils, a whole raft of contractors are facing uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EIt also worries me in particular that we are seeing some pretty awful employer behaviour at the moment. I call it \u201Cemployers unplugged\u201D. They have been unplugged from the expectation that the previous Labour Government had of them to behave with some decency and fairness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAt the moment we have a threatened lockout of Auckland bus workers. They are council workers once removed. There are lockouts and threatened lockouts of dairy workers in the Waikato. Today there are more lockouts, involving the Bridgeman Concrete workers in Manukau. I think the Government should adopt Labour\u2019s amendment, to reassure the Auckland council workers that during the reorganisation the workers\u2019 ability to deliver high-quality services will be maintained, that the reorganisation must maintain or improve the terms and conditions of those workers, and that they must have certainty. I am relieved that the workers of Auckland have a good reputation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022741448c772d34d53907d8b95089a4487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022741448c772d34d53907d8b95089a4487\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It has been an incredible debate. For one who has listened to it for the majority of the 16 hours of its duration, after hearing Rajen Prasad, Phil Twyford, Carol Beaumont, Su\u2019a William Sio, Moana Mackey, George Hawkins, David Shearer, and Darien Fenton, it would be fair to say that the Opposition has thrown its very best at the Government to test the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, which is before the Committee, and it would be fair to say that the Government has repelled the arguments of the other side. As Carol Beaumont said, it is about listening to people, and I must say that it is quite clear that the Government has listened to the people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe have heard all sorts of scaremongering and lamenting. We have heard all sorts of foolishness. We have heard comedy, and we have heard fantasy. But we must agree that when the chips are down, members on this side of the Chamber have had the wherewithal to take Auckland to where it needs to go. One should not be left with any delusion: it has taken a Government with a clear vision and leadership to get it to there. The debate on Auckland governance has been languishing for the last 30 years, and it has taken the leadership of a John Key - led Government, a Minister of Local Government like Rodney Hide, and an Associate Minister of Local Government like John Carter, to bring it about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhen we think about it, we know that Aucklanders are ambitious. What we heard from the Opposition was everything other than ambition. We heard about the sale of assets, and then we had the Minister explain that the $20 billion of assets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff546af4fca431aa39833d7ffb7c519\u0022\u003EHon George Hawkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s $28 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf7d09874344fac998cf87d4d653003\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014the $28 billion of assets\u2014is largely wrapped up in roading. It is also in libraries and in parks. The process of setting up assets for sale is tied up in the long-term council community plan, and it is a lengthy process. We see it as being a local government process. We are very confident on this side of the Chamber that once Aucklanders are given the opportunity to have the combined effect of a unitary authority, they will organise themselves in such a way that they will be able to address every concern that the Opposition has thrown up, be it a social issue or be it an issue around the advisory boards. The Government has been able to address and answer the concerns of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe point we want to make is that after 16 hours of debate the Opposition has worn itself down with smoke and mirrors, scaremongering, lamenting, comedy, and fantasy. Labour was unbalanced, reckless, and directionless for 9 years, and in Opposition it is proving to be even less effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will conclude my 5 minutes by talking about what the Government did, and I come back to the point of listening to the people. Carol Beaumont said we should listen to the people, and I think it is very appropriate that after 16 hours the Opposition has thrown the best it possibly can at the debate, and the Government has repelled the arguments. National members have heard all sorts of angles coming from the Opposition. I must commend the Minister of Local Government and his Associate Minister John Carter. They have had the internal fortitude and the courage to take Auckland to a position that the rest of New Zealand aspires to. Those of us who live in the regions had been looking with amazement at the lack of direction of the previous Labour Government over its 9 years in office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0f534a7525649eb8ad417ac1b83b37f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0f534a7525649eb8ad417ac1b83b37f\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have been accused of scaremongering and fearmongering. Rodney Hide said it was a pretend debate, and John Carter said it was a distraction. They were talking about privatisation. Why do they think that? Why do they not agree with what the rest of Aucklanders say? We know what the polls say: 85 percent of Aucklanders overwhelmingly oppose the privatisation of the water supply; 82 percent oppose selling assets like parks, libraries, and entertainment facilities; and 78 percent oppose the privatisation of ports and airports. Why are Aucklanders mistrustful of Rodney Hide? Why do they not like Rodney Hide? Why do they not believe him when he says he has no plans to privatise our assets? I will tell members why. The Prime Minister of this Government, John Key, said there will be no asset sales in this term of office. That really inspires a lot of confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAucklanders have very recent experience of politicians on that side of the Chamber selling off their assets, whether it is the airport, the ports, or John Banks\u2019 selling off pensioner housing. The Government recently loosened the rules on overseas investments. What kind of signal does that send to an electorate that is concerned about privatisation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Local Government recently said on Campbell Live: \u201CI love privatisation.\u201D But do you know what? He twisted the words of his own Prime Minister to try to deceive the television audience that there was no risk of privatisation. I will tell members what he said. Rodney Hide said to John Campbell: \u201CThe Prime Minister said, no, there will be no privatisation. He\u2019s the Prime Minister. I\u2019m not the Mayor of Auckland. I\u2019m not part of the council.\u201D John Campbell said: \u201CBut you\u2019re being a tad disingenuous there.\u201D Rodney Hide: \u201CNo, I\u2019m not.\u201D Campbell: \u201CYes, you are. The Prime Minister said there will be no privatisation of State assets.\u201D Rodney Hide said: \u201CCorrect.\u201D John Campbell said: \u201CThese are regional assets\u2014quite a different thing, not covered by what John Key was talking about.\u201D Rodney Hide: \u201CThat\u2019s right.\u201D He crudely twisted the Prime Minister\u2019s words, to try to put the people off the track of privatisation. He is a Minister who not only says he loves privatisation but also says that he wants to privatise the Ports of Auckland now. Well, at least he is open about it, unlike members on that side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe thing is that monopoly infrastructure assets, like the water company\u2014the new water monopoly in Auckland\u2014and like the airport shares, have to be retained in public hands because they are a natural monopoly. We know from bitter experience that if they are put into private hands, all we will see is monopoly rent-seeking behaviour. The only way to safeguard the public interest is for those assets to be held in public hands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe facilities of local government, like parks, libraries, cultural facilities, theatres, and halls, have to be in public ownership. They have to be managed in the public interest, because that is the only way ratepayers and citizens have free and equal access to them. But that is the opposite of the philosophy of the member who is sitting in the chair, Rodney Hide. His policy, the policy of his party, is that piped water and roading should be run on a fully commercial basis. That is straight out of ACT Party policy. And he wonders why Aucklanders are mistrustful and fearful of his nightmare vision of local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f750303d670d4e0a84db0552625208c7\u0022\u003ENikki Kaye\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, oh! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7c17a0af59438186f2e993d94ecc4b\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Nikki Kaye thinks that that is scaremongering. Is it scaremongering? No, it is not scaremongering, and the test is in the eating, because 80 percent of Aucklanders oppose privatisation of any description.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfe23741bd74a1287d8e7d5f8122383\u0022\u003EHon Rodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We are getting near to the end of the time, but this member\u2019s point is about Aucklanders, and I would I just point out that Nikki Kaye and I won our seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dfa4847dc33470395901f422a88d7d5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order. That is just interrupting the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273bebfd505ad48b38311316b90757cca\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: If the members on the other side of the Chamber voted for our amendment, they would protect Aucklanders\u2019 assets by subjecting any privatisation efforts to a referendum. But do you know what? The leader of the ACT Party believes in referendums for every other thing in local government. He wants to force councils to hold referendums on any significant and irreversible decision. He wants them to have a referendum if they want to put up their rates beyond the rate of inflation. But does he want them to have a referendum on the future of Auckland\u2019s assets? No. Why? I challenge the Minister to explain why he will not support a referendum on public assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002238faa8683f27430c8add764415d2a4f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238faa8683f27430c8add764415d2a4f7\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E This debate was supposed to be about hope and the future of Auckland, but what is very clear is that tonight we have seen amendments from the Labour Party that are about scaremongering. Section 97 of the Local Government Act protects the assets of the people of Auckland. Mr Twyford is all about scaremongering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe people of Auckland never heard from Labour members tonight about the regional infrastructure that is to be delivered finally to the people of Auckland. They did not hear speeches from Labour members about urban design. They did not hear speeches from Labour members about local representation on the local boards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2009091503d1c0c840384a08a3ea6d953bf3a3c6001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002252b282c8ab494d0c83e7ea930d307b6b\u0022\u003ETuesday, 15 September 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022748048617d22437e8ee6089b401a25ad\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 17 September 2009)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222137c41820414bddb8eab797a830412c\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bd7c9701a0e4a9d9f81859292a7bbce\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002224490e993e0c4841a241e23ea5a31013\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8a2baee906145c0a29b10dadd4a2317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8a2baee906145c0a29b10dadd4a2317\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E The Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was to be historic legislation for Auckland, offering tremendous opportunity not just for the people of Auckland but also for the people of New Zealand. The Auckland Governance Legislation Committee did not hear just from Aucklanders. The members of the committee had a day in Wellington to hear from people there, and we heard people from other parts of New Zealand. Although we are here to deliver a strong regional entity for the people of Auckland, which they have never had in the last 50 years, and although we are here to deliver strong units of local representation, we are also here to be able to put a model in place that we can stand up and say, with our hands on our hearts, could work in other parts of New Zealand. That is not to say it is up to us to make that decision; it is up to people in other parts of New Zealand to decide whether they want to have change in their areas. I am proud to stand to support legislation that is supported by the Opposition in terms of providing for one unitary authority, that is supported by the Opposition in terms of providing for local boards, and that is supported by the Opposition in terms of providing for the funding of those local boards in order to give them decent functions and powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EBut the debate that we have had has not been about this historic day for Auckland, it has not been about the public transport system that we want to fix, it has not been about Auckland\u2019s urban design that desperately needs to be better, and it has not been about the lost opportunities to attract major events, which we will finally, maybe, get. There has been a whole lot of scaremongering from members on the other side of the Chamber. We have seen this in the provisions around the protection of the sale of assets, for which there is a clear provision within the Local Government Act 2002, in section 97. We have seen this in the amendments that Opposition members have put up about a Social Issues Board, when know that Paula Bennett has already established one. We have seen this when the Opposition talked about mammoth costs, which they have absolutely no evidence of. The point I would make about that relates to the cost of delay. Aucklanders have been waiting for this step. The previous Labour Government set up the royal commission because it did not want to make a decision. Aucklanders have been waiting for this for not just 10 years; they have been waiting for this for over 50 years. Finally, we have had 18 months of a royal commission looking at the issue, with 3,500 submissions made to it, and we have had a select committee process in which 2,500 submissions were made. What exactly would the Labour Opposition want to see happen? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EWe have had over 2\u00BD years of consultation, but now it is time to make a decision, and sometimes decisions can be hard. But I am confident, and I know the Labour Party agrees with me on this, that we will finally deliver a strong regional entity to the people of Auckland, we will finally deliver some local boards that will have real functions and powers, and we will finally deliver to those communities a real say over local issues. I am proud to support this legislation. I am proud to be in this Chamber on a historic day for Auckland, talking about the opportunities that have been lost and the opportunities that Aucklanders will be able to take in the future. It is sad that we are looking at Opposition members on the other side of the Chamber unable to stand up and say they actually agree with us on those issues. There are areas where we disagree, but, actually, a lot of those areas are not in this legislation. I am proud to stand here to support this legislation, which provides for one regional entity for Auckland and a system of strong local representation. This is a historic day for Auckland. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb3cb31b185d489e8f0e93482ce18eaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb3cb31b185d489e8f0e93482ce18eaf\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to Nikki Kaye, who has just resumed her seat, saying how proud she was to get up to defend the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. What a pity the Cabinet Ministers have not done that. We had Jonathan Coleman, who stumbled and dithered in the debate until someone told him it was the wrong debate to be talking about. We have two other people\u2014the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter. They are both sincere people who talk with passion for Auckland. Well, I talk with passion for Auckland too. Nikki Kaye did not tell us one thing. She did not tell us why she has not told the ratepayers of Waiheke Island\u2014and they would love to know\u2014why they should be funding the intersection improvements along Ti Rakau Drive in Pakuranga. They will not hear that from Nikki Kaye, but they will be paying for them. She should put them on the ferry, take them out to Ti Rakau Drive and show them what they will be paying for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThis is what this bill is about: it is about the executive not fronting up. I want people to tell me why the executive is not down here defending its legislation. Have we heard Steven Joyce talk about this? When is Steven Joyce getting up and having a go? What is Wayne Mapp saying about this bill? Rodney Hide is one person who talks about it, but does Murray McCully? No. Jonathan Coleman has had a go. Paula Bennett\u2014there is a name. She will get in any scrap as long as it is between teenagers and she can step inside, but she will not get involved in this debate. There is Maurice Williamson. Have we heard from him, a good Auckland member, a bit of a maverick? But, of course, no, we have not. He has his gag on. There is John Key. We do not see John Key. Not a word from him. Judith Collins sits there day after day, saying nothing, absolutely crushed by this debate. That is why, I think, they call her \u201CThe Crusher\u201D. She has been crushed by this debate, and has not got up to speak. People of Papakura think this is disgraceful. What did we have last night? We had Mr Tremain from Napier getting up to talk about the Auckland bill when we had Ministers from Auckland who were not saying anything. That is quite interesting, really. We had Colin King from Kaik\u014Dura getting up to have a go. But where were the Auckland Ministers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI have to say that the people of Auckland would have expected that an administration that has such important legislation for Auckland would get up and defend it, but no, that has not been the case at all. They have sat there with their mute buttons on. They have sat there with their gags on. I had National people tell me yesterday that they were not allowed to speak. We went for about 2\u00BD hours with no National person getting up at all. They tried that tactic\u2014the big silence. In the end the people of Auckland will realise that, when the mail drop goes round the Papakura electorate asking why the National member did not get up to speak and why she was so quiet, and when it goes round Botany to Pansy Wong\u2019s supporters asking why she did not get up to support the bill. As the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs, Pansy Wong represents half the population of Auckland, well over 600,000 to 700,000 people, but what did she have to say? Yes, she was in the Chamber, she was busying herself, she sat in the Chair, but she did not say \u201Cboo\u201D. I think she must have found it pretty hard even drawing breath down here, because over on the Government side they got people from out of Auckland to stand up and have a say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3c2d004fa9f41b980c1cf7e95c81075\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3c2d004fa9f41b980c1cf7e95c81075\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Hunua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak once again on this very important Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8223175f8b74e09a11670e737abacf2\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Something new! Something new, Paul!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbe377000cf49be983c671cab617b9c\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I want to take a further call on the powers and functions of the Local Government Commission, because, as we go forward and this very important bill is expeditiously enacted by the wonderful National-ACT coalition, the Local Government Commission will become more and more important. I think it is really important to realise that the Local Government Commission is a quasi-judicial body, and its decisions can be challenged only on points of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E One of its major things is to ensure that it does everything practical to keep communities of interests together. As I said last night, the bill\u2019s commentary makes it very clear that the bill will empower the commission to undertake consultation before determining the city\u2019s boundaries, but it does not specify a process or require any particular person to be consulted. In the commentary, members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee urged the commission to carry out a comprehensive consultation process with Aucklanders before setting the city and the local board boundaries. Dr Prasad says I should say something new. Well, this is hugely important for every Aucklander, for every board, for every ward, and maybe even Dr Prasad might take some interest in this very, very crucial decision-making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe reality is that when it came to the southern boundary, catchment issues, Treaty issues, and development issues have probably overridden communities of interest. So the duties of the Local Government Commission are going to be incredibly important. I go back to those small communities south of Pukekohe, to Buckland, which is 200 to 300 metres away, and Tuakau, which is connected by a sewerage system to Pukekohe, but has had community of interest involvement for over 100 years. It may be that the Local Government Commission can use its extended powers\u2014its flexibility\u2014to include those areas if those areas want that to happen. It may be that it is outside normal interpretation, but I think it very important that Parliament is aware that the Local Government Commission is charged with the responsibility of doing everything practicable to keep communities of interest together. Exactly how far they can go outside the existing boundaries is not well defined, although, indeed, they have the flexibility to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhen we come to Part 3, \u201CTransitional arrangements\u201D, we learn that the Local Government Commission must determine the boundaries no later than 1 March. I understand an interim report will occur in November, and there will be the opportunity to make submissions. I say that it is absolutely vital that the Local Government Commission is adventurous, innovative, flexible, and courageous in deciding on communities of interest, and that it does the very best it possibly can for the whole of Auckland, particularly for Franklin. I challenge the whole of this Committee to support the Local Government Commission in doing this very important work. I challenge the whole of this Chamber to ensure that it can be courageous, that it can be flexible, and that it is given the appropriate resources to ensure that that happens. It is somewhat ironic that it was none other than the Hon George Hawkins who put in a finely crafted amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022995c6f95daaa43739f10452b4494fd25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022995c6f95daaa43739f10452b4494fd25\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to raise a couple of issues in the last hour of this debate. One of them is the extraordinary hypocrisy of the ACT Party in refusing to support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6698139d9324094a8ded5368745d251\u0022\u003EHon John Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member knows that that word is out of order in this House and should not be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276006006d84a47ddb3642bbcd922f603\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a longstanding tradition that that word is not used in referral to people or parties in this House. The member will desist from using it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022925ce144d34d4178be49ff439247c060\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to discuss how extraordinarily unusual it is that the Minister of Local Government, who has, of course, masterminded this legislation, has gone around publicly declaring his support for the single transferable vote (STV)\u2014I have seen him on television on numerous occasions supporting STV, and he has told the public that the reason for his not supporting M\u0101ori seats is he supports STV\u2014but now we learn that he will not vote in the House for STV. The excuse he is using for not voting for it is the collective responsibility of Cabinet. In the meantime the Government is saying it would support M\u0101ori seats, but because of ACT it cannot. So there is a sort of game going on here whereby they blame each other. It is an extraordinary situation. He runs around all over New Zealand saying he supports STV, then he comes into this Chamber and votes it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs a result, Auckland will likely have a mayor who gains only 20 percent of the vote. As John Banks pointed out yesterday in a very revealing radio interview that I listened to, only about 40 percent of people vote in local government elections, so one would need only 20 percent of the vote to be voted in. With the powers in the bill, powers that no other mayor has, that mayor\u2014for example, John Banks\u2014would be able to control the Auckland Council, dominate the council, and drive through his agenda. So it is extraordinary that ACT is using as an excuse for its opposing M\u0101ori seats the fact that it supports STV, then, when it comes to the crunch, voting against it. I know we are not allowed to use the \u201Ch\u201D word, but it is hard to think of other words that could be used as a substitute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe second issue I wanted to raise is that I think everyone should read an article in today\u2019s New Zealand Herald by Joel Cayford warning us of what is happening quietly behind the scenes. He is concerned that the new Auckland Transport Agency being set up to replace the Auckland Regional Transport Authority will be completely independent, and that it will not be required to give effect to the Auckland regional transport strategy and will not be accountable for delivering a regionally agreed transport strategy. In other words, a body will be set up that the people of Auckland have no control over. He points out that already the Auckland Transition Agency has written to the Auckland Regional Council and said that it is not appropriate for the regional council to publicly notify the regional policy statement, which is being reviewed, and which is, in fact, the paramount strategic planning document for the region. Aucklanders need to be aware of that. The agency is already saying that the regional council should not be able to publicly notify the most significant planning document for the region. He warns that it looks as though the same thing is going to happen to water; that body will be completely separated off from the Auckland Council, it will be a completely separate entity, and it will be required to be accountable to not the new council but, rather, the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe are starting to see the hidden agenda come through. The Government needs to be aware that this new council arrangement will be in place for 1 year before the next election. Aucklanders will have plenty of time to discover that this great new model, which Nikki Kaye has been going on about, has not delivered grassroots democracy. The local boards, which are little more than community boards, have not been given the powers that Mr Carter and others are promising. They will quickly become disillusioned when they realise that despite all the spin about empowering local boards, the local boards do not have any power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7ec5ed937ca4439b039ab997106e836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7ec5ed937ca4439b039ab997106e836\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call to respond to the speeches made by George Hawkins and Sue Kedgley and to comment that I had expected this morning, given that we have about half an hour left for this debate, that the Opposition would want, finally, to set out its thoughts on directions and plans for how Auckland might work. Unfortunately, Mr Hawkins\u2019 speech was all about asking why this or that person has not spoken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EFor a start, I say we are in the Committee of the whole House. The second thing is that there is a report of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee to Parliament about what happened, so it is appropriate that the majority of the speeches from Government members are made by members who attended the select committee. It is the select committee\u2019s report to Parliament. To suggest that, for some reason, the Government, the executive, is dodging its responsibilities is silly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d00b1466dba4412bca417d59ae1d08c\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Too busy chairing select committees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240703e88335443fa96b8d11257c079d6\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. I certainly did chair the select committee, and I was pleased to do so. I was pleased about the cooperation we had from every member of the committee. It was a very good select committee, which did a lot of very hard work. It is just silly to suggest that, for some reason, it is wrong for members of the select committee to be taking the majority of the calls in the Committee on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI had thought that this discussion would be about setting the pace and setting the future direction by talking about how Auckland will actually look as we move forward. So, in the absence of anything in that regard from the Opposition, I ask members to allow me to take a few moments to explain to Parliament the changes the select committee recommended to the legislation. Primarily the issue was this: we were looking to ensure that there is an overarching regional structure that will look after the things that matter to Auckland. The neat thing about that is that the Opposition members absolutely agree with that. They are supportive of it, and I say to them it is to their credit that they have added to the strength of that. They need to be recognised for their involvement as we moved forward and made this bill a better bill at the select committee. I recognise the contribution made by the members of the Opposition, along with that of the members of the Government. It was a good team in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second issue, and the biggest issue of concern to the people of Auckland\u2014and I know that one or two members have already commented on this\u2014was the issue of the local boards. I listened to the address by Sue Kedgley, who has blinkers on with regard to the functions of those boards and other issues relating to them. Again, I say the Labour Opposition members, along with members of the Government, worked very constructively to make sure we got this bit right. They recognised, as we did, that the most important thing we could do after we got the overarching structure right was to make sure that the local voice\u2014local democracy; the heartbeat of Auckland\u2014was given the opportunity to express itself. So, again, I commend the Opposition for working with the Government to make sure we made the bill a better one. I think that, generally, we can all stand in this Chamber and say we made the bill a better bill, and, as a consequence, we will make Auckland a better place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI think it is a great disappointment that Sue Kedgley still has doubts. I can understand why she may have them, but she should have taken the advice of her colleague Sue Bradford, who was actually one of the most strident voices in the select committee and the member who inquired most often about how this arrangement will work. Members of the Opposition and members of the Government would agree with me about that. Sue Bradford repeatedly questioned the officials on how the arrangement will work. She came away from the select committee satisfied that we have got it generally right. No one is suggesting we have got it absolutely perfect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022589cfad41f214c779e915f543d606953\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198f3e20eb2845c695e87351e7768ded\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014I am the first to say that, but let us remember that this arrangement is a work in progress. We have a third Auckland bill coming up, and it will allow us to adjust those things that we find need to be reconsidered. We are prepared to do that. That is what this Government is about. We do not just put something in place and tell people that is it, so they must take it or leave it. We are prepared to work with people and with Parliament to make Auckland a better place, so the legislation is a work in progress in that regard. It is silly for Sue Kedgley to suggest that there is something fatally flawed in the work we have done with regard to the local boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002248d07e1208244b76b477165deee66293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248d07e1208244b76b477165deee66293\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call. I have been waiting to take a call since late yesterday evening when I felt utterly compelled to come down to the Chamber, having heard the very wise words of Mr Chris Tremain. Let me tell members why I felt compelled to come down to the Chamber and listen to Mr Tremain in full flight. Well, he spoke about the M\u0101ori seats. I found his views interesting, to say the least, and patronising at best. He spoke of the renaissance we are seeing within the M\u0101ori culture and said it was somehow the reason why we do not need M\u0101ori seats on the super-city. For some reason, the fact that we now sing the first part of our national anthem in M\u0101ori means we do not need M\u0101ori seats in Auckland. The war we have waged has been won, apparently, and we can all sit back and feel very satisfied with what we have achieved. But Chris Tremain\u2019s speech did not stop there. I thought we had reached a new low when Mr Tremain explained to us that if M\u0101ori can organise a h\u012Bkoi they can organise a campaign across 70,000 voters. A h\u012Bkoi and a campaign in a super-city election is exactly the same thing! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI have two words to sum up the speech we heard last night from Mr Tremain: naive and patronising. We heard from that member that, for all the Government\u2019s chat about listening to people, every single submitter who told the select committee why M\u0101ori needed specific representation was wrong. And, apparently, not just the submitters were wrong\u2014the 15,000 who marched on the issue were wrong, according to the Government. We heard an utterly patronising explanation as to why. But it did not stop there. The explanation we heard from Mr Tremain, further on, was that women are represented well in Parliament and do not need specific seats in this House in order to get represented. Mr Tremain now sounds to me more like the Peter Cetera of Parliament fighting for the honour of women. I say to Mr Tremain that first past the post did not afford greater representation to women or minority groups in this House. What are two of the big contributors that have seen greater representation in this House? Firstly, MMP certainly helped the cause, and, secondly, M\u0101ori seats certainly helped the cause, as well. So I say to Mr Tremain that he shows an absolute lack of understanding of the fundamentally important things about our democracy that have enhanced representation in this House. I thought that what we heard from him last night was an absolutely naive presentation of the current reality in New Zealand. I was disappointed by that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut it did not stop there. When it comes to the representation issue we have not been talking just about the importance of the M\u0101ori seats; we have been talking about the other groups that absolutely deserve a greater say in the way that the Auckland Council will work. We have talked about ethnic groups in Auckland. We have also talked about young people. I want to come back to that issue, as it specifically relates to the election process and to the representation young people can expect to be afforded through the super-city structure. Young people represent 37 percent of the population of Auckland. That is mammoth. They have communicated with the select committee and their members of Parliament. I know that many of them approached their local member on this issue and asked what MPs thought the chances were of a young person\u2014someone under the age of 25\u2014being elected to the council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EIt is a very simple question. Let us look at the way it currently works in New Zealand. I found out how young people are currently represented across the various councils and local boards. The numbers are dismal\u2014fewer than 10 across the country\u2014and the Government expects that the new structure, with wards with as many as 70,000 people in them, will be an accessible ground for young people to campaign in and win in their own right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EI think young people are electable\u2014absolutely\u2014and I think they should be given the same opportunity as everyone else, but I want to inject a little reality into the situation. A young person campaigning against an opponent who is doubtless well-resourced and well-funded will have some difficulties working across such a large ward, and we need to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022 data-id=\u00228c38bef7c46e4f62a800be927f496be6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c38bef7c46e4f62a800be927f496be6\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN (National):\u003C/span\u003E I say to my friend and colleague Jacinda Ardern that unlike her colleague Shane Jones, I will not chastise her for mispronouncing the word \u201Ch\u012Bkoi\u201D. If Shane Jones wishes to lambaste her, she should give me a call and I will come running to her aid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EThis is the last time that I will have the opportunity to speak and address this debate. Unfortunately, I have been summoned to attend a select committee meeting in order to hold the Opposition to account. So unfortunately I will not be able to partake in the rest of the debate. I take this opportunity to provide some overview commentary on some of the comments that we have heard from the Opposition. I would like to start with my friend and colleague the Hon George Hawkins. In his contribution last night he wondered aloud in his offerings why the Government members had not been standing up to debate, and why the Ministers had not presented themselves to front up to the debate. Well, let me tell the Hon George Hawkins that the reason we have not had to respond is simply due to the quality of the offerings from the Opposition. There has been nothing to respond to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EThe Hon George Hawkins got up last night and said that we would sell the assets. When he was challenged to say which assets, he said that he did not know. The point is that Labour has not offered up anything to respond to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9011c5bb0dd44feb8db972fc295632c\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What about the M\u0101ori seats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ecfcad32fb6411792b1a7881508140e\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Moana that in frustration and, I might say, at the request of the Opposition, we have had to get up and entertain those members. We have had to get up and entertain the Opposition members because they got frustrated and bored with their own contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EAs my time shortens, I want to lay out for the record my congratulations on the outstanding contributions to the work on this bill, under the great leadership of the Minister of Local Government, the Hon Rodney Hide, who has led this process, in close consultation with, and support from, the Hon John Carter. Of course, the Hon Darren Hughes\u2014I think the member has that title, but there are lots of \u201Chonourables\u201D on that side of the Chamber; they were dishing them out like gongs\u2014criticised the fact that the Associate Minister, John Carter, chaired the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. He said that it had never been done before. Well, so what? We are visionaries. This shows the seriousness with which we take the issue. We wanted strong leadership and we wanted an experienced member to chair that meeting. John Carter was the man to do it. I am tremendously proud of the work he has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the other National members of the committee. Nikki Kaye has done an outstanding job over the last 24 hours in rebutting the contributions from the Opposition. Simon Bridges made an excellent contribution. Dr Paul Hutchison has represented his constituents as a true constituent MP, and that should go on the record. In fact, I might nominate him for a gong in this year\u2019s Honours List. I think that would be deserved. The list goes on. Tau Henare led the subcommittee hearing on the M\u0101ori seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254cfd62fac2542ce937e7035888b98b8\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Jackie Blue!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286cc41c0c87049fa80811c0701e40340\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: Jackie Blue was another one. They all gave outstanding contributions. We really have to wonder where Phil Twyford was in all of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d7aeadb0194cda9293ca036f52e0a2\u0022\u003ESimon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Raymond Huo!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002267431f57-e958-4c83-b438-7da8061d479e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0f8cd8390e4df2a5585203432b023c\u0022\u003EPAUL QUINN\u003C/span\u003E: Raymond? Was he on the committee? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022a451227ed12e48a7a473b08839e1fd63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a451227ed12e48a7a473b08839e1fd63\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make some comments about one of the amendments that Labour is putting up in this debate. It proposes the establishment of an Auckland Services Performance Auditor. This is one of the many recommendations of the royal commission that this Government has chosen to sideline and ignore. Aucklanders will judge the success of the super-city on three things. The first is rates: what it will cost us. The second is democracy: whether we will still have a say in the running of our city. The third is the quality and scope of the services of the city. The royal commission recommended that council-controlled organisations be established for virtually all of the council enterprises. Two of the main ones will be the new water monopoly, which the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill will go a long way to establishing, and the new Auckland Transition Agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to focus my comments on the water monopoly for a second. It is a hugely ambitious project, a vertically and horizontally integrated water company dealing with drinking water and waste water right across the city\u2014huge assets that are essential for the long-term well-being of the city. Water, as we know, is a human right\u2014nothing is more essential for human survival than access to water\u2014yet there is concern and anxiety across Auckland today about the likely impact of this new organisational merger on water bills for Aucklanders. We know that the Government policy and the recommendation of the royal commission is that volumetric pricing be rolled out across the city. We also know by comparative analysis of water charging across the different territorial authorities in Auckland that if the volumetric pricing regime currently used by Metro Water were to be implemented in other councils, then a family of four in the North Shore, Waitakere, or Manukau would be looking at a $700-a-year increase in their water rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis alone is reason enough to seriously consider an appropriate accountability mechanism for this new monopoly company. The amendment that we are putting up from this side of the Committee proposes that the new performance auditor be responsible for ensuring that the water company is accountable, that it is transparent, that its pricing practices are subject to scrutiny, and that it is held accountable for providing the highest standards of customer service. The performance auditor would report publicly not just on the water company but on all of Auckland Council\u2019s operations and all of its council-controlled organisations. It would conduct a 3-yearly efficiency and effectiveness review of the new water company. We all have a stake in this issue. Auckland ratepayers are all water consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe other aspect to the amendment is an annual performance audit of the Auckland Council. This provision needs to be in the bill because the water monopoly is well under way. This bill mandates the establishment of a fully integrated water company, and it has to be put in place if Aucklanders are to have trust and confidence that the new water company will behave in a way that is appropriate for a publicly owned monopoly, especially one that deals with such a vital commodity as water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear that the proposal does not detract from the governance responsibilities of the Auckland Council. It does not set out to undermine the responsibility of those people who were elected through the political process and who are responsible for the council-controlled organisations and the operations of the council. The purpose of this amendment is to provide analysis, reporting, and advice so that Aucklanders can see with some regularity and transparency the quality of the operations of the Auckland Council. If we are going to go down the track of amalgamating, rationalising, and integrating all the operations of the council into such large operations, it is essential that this performance auditor is an advocate for citizens, that it protects the interests of citizens, and that it is able to go into bat to assist the politicians and the political process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is also a check on the bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00223b7da720e706465cac1409ad01b9f270\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b7da720e706465cac1409ad01b9f270\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank everyone for the contributions to the debate. I think it has been a worthwhile debate on such important legislation. Let me walk through as many of the amendments that we will be voting on as I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I will explain what the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 62 involves. The amendment to clause 17C is a technical, consequential amendment to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. The amendments to clauses 18 and 19 and the schedule will, as we have announced, extend the northern boundary to include the whole of the Rodney District, with a single-member ward based on the rural area of that district.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere are also amendments to the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Act that relate to annual reports. There currently is a requirement that each council prepares an annual report after 12 months. If we think about it, we realise it is silly for them to be doing that when they will have only 4 months to go. It will also be impossible for them to do their final 12-month wrap-ups. The amendment to clause 23 and the new clause 23B oblige the Auckland Transition Agency to prepare a planning document for the Auckland Council that will apply until the end of the 2010-11 financial year. New clause 23C fixes up a drafting error. New clause 23D requires that the existing local authorities prepare annual reports for the remaining 4 months only, but it also clarifies that they must set rates for a 12-month period in order to provide income for the new council. It also removes the obligation for the local authorities to prepare and adopt an annual report for the 2009-10 financial year and for the 2010-11 financial year; instead, they must prepare one report for the period 1 July 2009 to 31 October 2010, which is just a wrap-up report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThat is the Government Supplementary Order Paper that we will be voting on. There is also a range of amendments from members. Several in Hone Harawira\u2019s name cover various options for having M\u0101ori seats: having M\u0101ori seats voted out of the general wards, having the Local Government Commission decide on M\u0101ori seats, and, indeed, having mana whenua seats, with candidates signing statutory declarations that they are mana whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere is also a variety of amendments from the Labour Party. They are interesting because they go beyond the issue of M\u0101ori seats to picking up on the idea that there should be legislated advisory boards. This issue would be properly considered in the debate on the third Auckland Council bill, if Parliament was of such a mind. For example, Raymond Huo\u2019s amendment includes the insertion of a new clause 12B, which would establish a statutory Asian Advisory Board. That option could be looked at in the debate on the third bill, because it does not relate to electing anyone, so that debate can be had again. Likewise with Su\u2019a William Sio\u2019s amendment to establish a statutory Pacific Advisory Board. Yes, he can raise that issue now, but it would be better raised in the debate on the third bill. Likewise with Jacinda Ardern\u2019s amendment to establish a statutory Auckland Youth Council. That can be relitigated when we debate the third bill, which will be introduced into Parliament towards the end of this year and debated early next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI make the point that those amendments undermine local government to the extent that they involve our deciding through legislation how it will structure its advisory boards and how it will have its youth councils. One will find that local government bodies are doing those things all around New Zealand, but they are doing it in their own way, uniquely, and they can evolve it over time. They have an obligation to do it under the Local Government Act, and they do it. The danger we have is that if we make it statutory, we freeze how it should be done and how the relationship should be managed. If we think about it, we realise that this legislation may exist for 50 years. Of course, it will be amended over that time. But the proposed amendments would mean that Parliament was setting in place how the Auckland Council would interact with the community throughout the Auckland region. We might do better to give it a broad steer that it should have that interaction, then leave it up to the people of Auckland and the council itself to decide how it does it. Mr Prasad is shaking his head; he thinks we cannot do that. I just signal caution. It is something for Parliament to decide, but it may well be wiser to allow it to evolve, because all the wisdom does not exist in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI also make the point that Parliament in that way would be establishing a category of citizens and interaction. We would be saying that a certain group is special, that mana whenua, or M\u0101ori, will have a certain number of seats, that Pacific Islanders and Asians are special enough to have advisory boards but not special enough to have their own seats. Again, we would be freezing that; the only way that it could be changed would be by coming to Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225db0a23e-1579-44c6-9194-76e34cf5ae99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a92399761d4fb6824b1a539bbb4050\u0022\u003EDr Rajen Prasad\u003C/span\u003E: Only a mechanism to change laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc54b9c440a4da9beccf7bca534fa2b\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not only a mechanism; it is actually a legislative device. It is making the law. We have not done that for local government. We have had mechanisms evolve, and they are working quite well, whether in Manukau, Porirua City, or anywhere else. They are not legislated for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would like to thank everyone. I think the debate has been good. There is plenty of debate to be had, because we have the third bill still to come, when we will reconsider the whole issue of advisory boards. Thank you very much to everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad314f8d7c0419a86e613c1272ae120\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The time for this debate has concluded. Members may wish to note that there have been 202 speeches, by my calculation, from 49 different members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 62 in the name of the Hon Rodney Hide be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e0f77fc2f9df4d04a58419ef3a095d70\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000069\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000070\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000071\u0022\u003E(3)\t(a)\tThe House of Representatives shall, within 5 years of the commencement of \t this Act, appoint a select committee to review the operation of this Act since \t its commencement.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000072\u0022\u003E(b)\tThe select committee appointed shall consider the following:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000073\u0022\u003E(i)\tM\u0101ori representation on the Auckland Council:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000074\u0022\u003E(ii)\tthe functions, powers and responsibilities of the Auckland Council, including both the governing body and the local boards:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000075\u0022\u003E(iii)\tthe size and number of local boards:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000076\u0022\u003E(iv)\tthe number of councillors:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000077\u0022\u003E(v)\tthe number of members on each ward:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000078\u0022\u003E(vi)\tcouncil boundaries:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000079\u0022\u003E(vii)\tward boundaries:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000080\u0022\u003E(viii)\tthe voting system:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000081\u0022\u003E(ix)\twhether any amendment to this Act or any other law are necessary or desirable to improve the governance arrangements for Auckland. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000082\u0022\u003E(c)\tThe select committee appointed shall report back to the House of Representatives within 6 months.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb9067b792ee4011bce052fda4d76291\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000083\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 57 in the name of Hone Harawira be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022590a8de9e30446c3b2e6715832c3fcae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c47a66cf22e644c5851a60ad1b2c8c77\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendment, which is in the name of Hone Harawira and on Supplementary Order Paper 58, is ruled out of order as being contingent on a previous amendment, which has been negatived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 36 in the name of the Hon Mita Ririnui be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022919b4e0c4ff04bfc8ee5818d607e37b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000086\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 59 in the name of Hone Harawira be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8099a5ecde04b97b2885dbd36ef0535\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000087\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 60 in the name of Hone Harawira be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c73b38312fa741b2886bd90041d4baf1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000088\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 61 in the name of Hone Harawira be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ef364dea378e45bfa7153f73b225d775\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000089\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 8 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000090\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) \u201C20 members\u201D and substitute \u201C25 members\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220c3df48436f4a349843e1d83cfdcabd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000091\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 55 in the name of Sue Kedgley be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022714d4a777a124354b2214e925c2c99f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000092\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Phil Twyford be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000093\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000094\u0022\u003E9A\tSocial Issues Board\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000095\u0022\u003E(1)\tThis section establishes a Social Issues Board.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000096\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe purpose of the Social Issues Board is to set direction for social well-being policy of the Auckland Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000097\u0022\u003E(3)\tDecisions reached by the Social Issues Forum will be binding.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000098\u0022\u003E(4)\tDecisions will be implemented by the Auckland Council, and/or the appropriate government department.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000099\u0022\u003E9B\tMembership of Social Issues Board\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000100\u0022\u003E(1)\tThe Social Issues Board will include the following:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000101\u0022\u003E(a)\tMinister of Local Government:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000102\u0022\u003E(b)\tMayor of Auckland:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000103\u0022\u003E(c)\tChief Executive of the Auckland Council:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000104\u0022\u003E(d)\tChief Executive of the Ministry of Health:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000105\u0022\u003E(e)\tChief Executive of the Ministry of Education:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000106\u0022\u003E(f)\tChief Executive of the Ministry of Social Development:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000107\u0022\u003E(g)\tCommissioner of Police:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000108\u0022\u003E(h)\tChief Executive of Housing New Zealand Corporation:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000109\u0022\u003E(i)\tmembers of the relevant Auckland Council social issues committee:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000110\u0022\u003E(j)\trepresentative from the M\u0101ori community:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000111\u0022\u003E(k)\trepresentative from the Pacific community:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000112\u0022\u003E(l)\trepresentative from the Asian community.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000113\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe Social Issues Board will be chaired by the Mayor of Auckland.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000114\u0022\u003E9C\tResponsibilities of the Social Issues Board\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000115\u0022\u003E(1)\tThe key functions of the Social Issues Board will include:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000116\u0022\u003E(a)\tresponsibility for decisions on the regional social well-being strategy; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000117\u0022\u003E(b)\tdrafting an implementation and funding plan.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000118\u0022\u003E(2)\tWithout limiting subsection (1) the Social Issues Board will also be responsible for:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000119\u0022\u003E(a)\tidentifying social well-being outcomes for the Auckland region using the community outcomes consultation process set out in the Local Government Act 2002:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000120\u0022\u003E(b)\tdeveloping the regional social well-being strategy that will include prioritising critical social issues for action:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000121\u0022\u003E(c)\tmaking recommendations to the Minister of Local Government and the Auckland Council for decisions on resource allocation, including the redistribution of resources to address critical social issues:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000122\u0022\u003E(d)\tdeciding what government body will take action:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000123\u0022\u003E(e)\tsetting outcome targets and monitoring progress on the critical social issues:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000124\u0022\u003E(f)\tengaging with the private sector, non-government organisations and philanthropic agencies.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002233565536f25e4bb097c79ed1eb58a65a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000125\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Phil Twyford be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000126\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000127\u0022\u003E9A\tAuckland Services Performance Auditor\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000128\u0022\u003E(1)\tThis section establishes the office of the Auckland Services Performance Auditor.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000129\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe purpose of the Auckland Services Performance Auditor is to assess whether the Auckland Council is performing adequately in providing high-quality services in a cost-effective manner.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000130\u0022\u003E(3)\tFor the purposes of subsection (2), the Auckland Services Performance Auditor has the following powers:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000131\u0022\u003E(a)\treview the adequacy and relevance of Auckland Council controlled organisation performance targets as set out in the statement of intent, and the accuracy of performance reported against those targets:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000132\u0022\u003E(b)\twith respect to council controlled organisations, the Auckland Services Performance Auditor will have the power to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000133\u0022\u003E(i)\treview service standards set out in their customer service charter, annual customer satisfaction survey results, and customer complaints processes:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000134\u0022\u003E(ii)\tassist the Auckland Council with its three-year reviews of their statements of intent, including the relevance of any targets:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000135\u0022\u003E(iii)\tprotect the consumer\u2019s interests and advocate for them in respect of the reliability and affordability of services:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000136\u0022\u003E(c)\tthe ability to report publicly on any issue at any time:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000137\u0022\u003E(d)\tto obtain information from all Auckland Council bodies.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000138\u0022\u003E9B\tPowers with respect to Watercare Services Limited\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000139\u0022\u003EWithout limiting section 9A(3), and with respect to Watercare Services Limited, the Auckland Services Performance Auditor will have the power to undertake three-yearly efficiency and effectiveness reviews, incorporating international comparative industry benchmarking and an evaluation of service levels, efficiency, affordability of water, and demand management performance.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000140\u0022\u003E9C\tAppointment of Auckland Services Performance Auditor\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000141\u0022\u003E(1)\tThe Auckland Services Performance Auditor will be appointed by a majority vote of the governing body of the Auckland Council for a three-year term.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000142\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe nomination of candidates will be made jointly by the Chair of the Commerce Commission and the Auditor-General.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000143\u0022\u003E9D\tAuckland Services Performance Auditor Report\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000144\u0022\u003E(1)\tWithout limiting section 9A(3), the Auckland Services Performance Auditor will be required to produce an annual report assessing the performance of the Auckland Council.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f6a02775aa04ae99838f44e4e4b0a45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000145\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Carol Beaumont to clause 12 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000146\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000147\u0022\u003E(6)\tThis subsection applies if, at any elections held at the same time for a member or members of the governing body or local board and a member or members of Parliament, a person is declared to be elected as a member of the governing body or local board and that person is also declared to be elected as a member of Parliament.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000148\u0022\u003E(7)\tIf subsection (6) applies, the person declared to be elected to both offices must be treated as having vacated office as a member of the governing body or local board.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000149\u0022\u003E(8)\tThis subsection applies if, at any election other than an election to which subsection (6) applies, a person who is a member of the governing body or local board is declared to be elected as a member of Parliament.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000150\u0022\u003E(9)\tIf subsection (8) applies, the person declared to be elected as a member of Parliament must be treated as having vacated office as a member of the governing body or local board.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000151\u0022\u003E(10)\tSubsections (6) to (9) will expire 1 November 2010.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ba68706f2c944f7cb7964b2a182e1db6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000152\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Jacinda Ardern be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000153\u0022\u003Eto insert in clause 4 the following definitions in their appropriate alphabetical order: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000154\u0022\u003EChild means a person under the age of 18 years.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000155\u0022\u003EYoung person or young people means a person or people of or over the age of 14 years but under 25 years.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000156\u0022\u003Eto insert the following heading and clauses:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000157\u0022\u003EYouth Representation\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000158\u0022\u003E12B\tAuckland Youth Council\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000159\u0022\u003E(1)\tThis section establishes an Auckland Youth Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000160\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe Auckland Youth Council must comprise a representative from each Youth Forum established in section 12C.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000161\u0022\u003E(3)\tThe purpose of the Auckland Youth Council is to enable the participation of children and young people of or over the age of 12 years in the decision-making process of the Auckland Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000162\u0022\u003E(4)\tThe Auckland Council must assign one of its members the responsibility of liaising with and providing support to the Auckland Youth Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000163\u0022\u003E(5)\tThe Auckland Council must provide adequate resources to the Auckland Youth Council for the purposes of this section.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000164\u0022\u003E12C\tTerritorial Youth Forums\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000165\u0022\u003EA Youth Forum is to be established for each local board area.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000166\u0022\u003E(1)\tThe purposes of the Youth Forums are to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000167\u0022\u003E(a)\tascertain the views of children and young people in the local board area; and \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000168\u0022\u003E(b)\tprovide an opportunity for all children and young people residing in the local board area to openly discuss and form opinions on local board issues on a regular basis; and \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000169\u0022\u003E(c)\telect a young person attending the Youth Forum to present the views and opinions of children and young people within the local board area to the local board and the Auckland Youth Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000170\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe Local Board must provide adequate resources to the Youth Forum for the purposes of this section.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000171\u0022\u003Eto insert after clause 13(2)(c) the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000172\u0022\u003E(ca)\tmust consult with and consider any views and preferences expressed by their Territorial Youth Forum on matters which affect or may affect youth; and;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000173\u0022\u003Eto add to clause 13B(2) the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000174\u0022\u003E(d)\tconsult with and consider any views and preferences expressed by the Auckland Youth Council if the decision affects or may affect the people represented by those groups.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000175\u0022\u003Eto add to clause 13B the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000176\u0022\u003E(3)\t(a)\tIn addition to the requirements described in subsection (2)(d) the governing \tbody is required to meet with the Auckland Youth Council a minimum of \tonce every 3 months:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000177\u0022\u003E(b)\tfurther, it is explicitly recognised that the governing body will consult and consider any views and preferences expressed by the Auckland Youth Council in development of the LTCCP and the annual plan.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000178\u0022\u003Eand to add the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000179\u0022\u003E25\tNew subsection 13(5) inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000180\u0022\u003EThe following subsection is inserted after subsection (4):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000181\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tThe Auckland Transition Agency must take into account the views of children and young people, and the youth councils and forums of existing local authorities, when decision-making.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cf86b446e3845dfab4237c7592b7533\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000182\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Raymond Huo be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000183\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000184\u0022\u003E12B\tAsian Advisory Board\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000185\u0022\u003E(1)\tThis section establishes an Asian Advisory Board.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000186\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe purpose of the Asian Advisory Board is to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000187\u0022\u003E(a)\tperform an advisory role for the governing body in relation to its decisions relating to the Asian community:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000188\u0022\u003E(b)\trepresent the views of the Asian community:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000189\u0022\u003E(c)\tenable the participation of the Asian community in the decision-making process of the Auckland Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000190\u0022\u003E(3)\tMembership of the Board will be determined by the governing body in consultation with Asian communities and community leaders within the Auckland region.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000191\u0022\u003E(4)\tThe Asian Advisory Board will have no fewer than 4 members, appointed by a majority vote of the governing body.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000192\u0022\u003E(5)\tThe Auckland Council must provide adequate resources to the Asian Advisory Board sufficient for the purposes of this section.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000193\u0022\u003Eto add to clause 13B(2) the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000194\u0022\u003E(d)\tconsult with and consider any views and preferences expressed by the Asian Advisory Board if the decision affects or may affect the people represented by those groups.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000195\u0022\u003Eto add to clause 13B the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000196\u0022\u003E(3)\tIn addition to the requirements described in subsection (2)(d) the governing body is required to meet with the Asian Advisory Board a minimum of once every 3 months.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000197\u0022\u003E(a)\tFurther, it is explicitly recognised that the governing body will consult and consider any views and preferences expressed by the Asian Advisory Board in the development of the LTCCP and the annual plan.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000198\u0022\u003Eand to add the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000199\u0022\u003E25\tNew subsection 13(5) inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000200\u0022\u003EThe following subsection is inserted after subsection (4):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000201\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tThe Auckland Transition Agency must take into account the views of the Asian community and existing Asian Advisory Boards, when decision-making.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4e1ee9a43c04d358a6b49ecf81d6fee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000202\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Su\u2019a William Sio be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000203\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000204\u0022\u003E12B\tPacific Advisory Board\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000205\u0022\u003E(1)\tThis section establishes a Pacific Advisory Board.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000206\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe purpose of the Pacific Advisory Board is to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000207\u0022\u003E(a)\tperform an advisory role for the governing body in relation to its decisions relating to the Pacific Island Community:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000208\u0022\u003E(b)\trepresent the views of the Pacific Island Community:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000209\u0022\u003E(c)\tenable the participation of the Pacific Island community in the decision-making process of the Auckland Council.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000210\u0022\u003E(3)\tMembership of the Board will be determined by the governing body in consultation with Pacific communities and Pacific leaders within the Auckland region.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000211\u0022\u003E(4)\tThe Pacific Advisory Board will have no fewer than 4 members, appointed by a majority vote of the governing body.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000212\u0022\u003E(5)\tThe Auckland Council must provide adequate resources to the Pacific Advisory Board sufficient for the purposes of this section.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000213\u0022\u003Eto add to clause 13B(2) the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000214\u0022\u003E(d)\tconsult with and consider any views and preferences expressed by the Pacific Advisory Board if the decision affects or may affect the people represented by those groups.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000215\u0022\u003Eto add to clause 13B the following subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000216\u0022\u003E(3)\tIn addition to the requirements described in subsection (2)(d) the governing body is required to meet with the Pacific Advisory Board a minimum of once every 3 months.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000217\u0022\u003E(a)\tFurther, it is explicitly recognised that the governing body will consult and consider any views and preferences expressed by the Pacific Advisory Board in the development of the LTCCP and the annual plan.;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000218\u0022\u003Eand to add the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000219\u0022\u003E25\tNew subsection 13(5) inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000220\u0022\u003EThe following subsection is inserted after subsection (4):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000221\u0022\u003E\u201C(5)\tThe Auckland Transition Agency must take into account the views of the Pacific community and existing Pacific Advisory Boards, when decision-making.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0bb15d16a1e48999073bd36e8830d48\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d638f3a4ff6d415dafcbe82b14c95ed8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: There are amendments to clause 18(1A) in the name of the Hon George Hawkins and in the name of Sue Bradford. They are ruled out of order as they are inconsistent with the previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon George Hawkins be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eto omit from clause 18(3)(a) \u201Cmay undertake the investigations and consult the persons that it thinks desirable; but\u201D and substitute \u201Cmust consult with those persons affected by the draft determination\u201D;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 18(3)(b);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003Eand to add to clause 19(3) the following paragraph:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E(i)\tthose persons affected by the draft determination have been consulted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e720ab03c76c4a708f6cffe25f1bf396\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000228\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 19(1)(e) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000229\u0022\u003Eto omit \u201Cdivide Auckland into wards\u201D and substitute \u201Cdivide Auckland into 25 wards\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000230\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) \u201Cnumber\u201D;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000231\u0022\u003Eand to omit subparagraph (ii).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223618aef946c64a029d5d3c3050804189\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 73\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000232\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 19 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000233\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1)(e)(ii) \u201Cdetermine the number of elected members for each ward\u201D and substitute \u201Censure that each ward has no more than 2 elected members\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228f541d56ec664ca084f28ec17fac6a68\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 73\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000234\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 19 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000235\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3)(a) \u201C20 but no more than 30\u201D and substitute \u201C14 but no more than 20\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b4aca0a8b3bc46099688374fe3b8d11b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 73\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000236\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 53 in the name of Sue Kedgley be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6d136e8bafb43dba264eb0580b7e37c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e9c4f4d16a4925a3c5767e40a1f9fb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment to add Subpart 3 to Part 3 is ruled out of order because it is outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 54 in the name of Sue Bradford be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224ffb8d31e236498ea7f85cd475cffebc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a607beed26e046c6956abda9760c018f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of Phil Twyford to clause 23A is ruled out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment. An additional amendment in the name of Phil Twyford to add clause 25, relating to transitional personnel provisions, is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of the bill. A typescript amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to omit the schedule is ruled out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291fe963c429c426093fb5f441b835d1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 4, the schedule, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 4, schedule, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209412c9abfa949c2924e483409f1fa47\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for their conduct during the debate and in the putting of the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e87c310c5c44c828ed46313b2fa29b0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b79c2402853c41a6bddeebc7baf11592\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b79c2402853c41a6bddeebc7baf11592\u0022\u003EHon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill be now read a third time. The purpose of this bill is to set in place the policy framework that will deliver one council, one mayor, and one integrated plan for Auckland by 1 November 2010. The Auckland region needs decisive leadership, robust infrastructure, and the facilities and services of a world-class city. The Auckland Council, as a single unitary authority governing the region, will provide leadership and deliver the services its communities want efficiently and effectively. The council\u2019s local boards will ensure that communities are empowered on local issues. That is the foundation upon which we will make a great Auckland even greater, and drive New Zealand\u2019s economic growth. This bill provides for the governance structure of the Auckland Council, including the high-level framework for the structure of the council, 20 members elected from wards, between 20 and 30 local boards, and direction and provision of powers for the Local Government Commission to determine the boundaries of Auckland, its wards, and its local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Auckland Governance Legislation Committee added tremendous value to this bill in key areas. I emphasise in particular the contribution made to developing recommendations around the roles, functions, and decision-making responsibilities of the council\u2019s local boards. This work will ensure that local voices are heard in the administration of the new Auckland. Local boards will act for their communities by making decisions on council facilities and services, making decisions on promoting the well-being of their communities, providing input on Auckland Council strategies, policies, plans, and by-laws, recommending by-laws, and carrying out council business delegated by the governing body of Auckland Council. The governing body of the new council, made up of the mayor and 20 councillors, will focus on those matters where an Auckland-wide approach will best promote the well-being of the communities across Auckland and will be most efficient for the administration of council business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe policy framework that is established by this bill provides certainty around the overall structure, roles, and responsibilities of the two tiers of the new council. It provides clarity and direction for the Local Government Commission and the Auckland Transition Agency for the work that needs to be completed by 1 March and 1 November 2010. Later this year I will bring forward a third Auckland bill that will fill in the technical detail and finalise the transition arrangements for moving from the old to the new Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI believe it is timely to once again thank the many people who contributed to the success of this bill and brought it to where it is today. I acknowledge and thank the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance for its report, the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee for its work on the bill, and especially its chair, the Hon John Carter, who did such a great job in terms of listening and taking the heat out of the issue. I also thank the Government MPs and Ministers who have worked so closely and collaboratively with me on this issue. I also thank, in particular, Mr Phil Twyford, Mr George Hawkins, and other members of the Labour Opposition. To be honest, they kept us on our toes and they made us check our assumptions and the work we were doing. I believe that, as a consequence, because of that robust challenging, we actually have a better bill as a result. I thank those Opposition members for their work in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI thank the councils of Auckland. They took a leadership role in engaging with their communities on Auckland governance issues\u2014thank you to them. I also thank the staff\u2014and particularly the chief executives\u2014of the Auckland councils. This is a tough time for them and their staff, and they have worked very diligently with the Auckland Transition Agency and the Government to ensure the least disruption and the greatest amount of certainty in this time of change. They always did so with the best interests of Auckland and New Zealand at heart. In fact, through this process of working with councils and Aucklanders, the Opposition parties and the Government have seen Auckland at its very best, and that bodes well for the new council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI am especially grateful for the hard work and dedication of the officials, particularly those in the Department of Internal Affairs, who put in long hours and produced quality advice and support. I do not believe that as a Minister I could ask anything more of the officials than the intelligence, talent, hard work, and dedication they provided to me, John Carter, this Government, and ultimately to Auckland and the people of New Zealand. They have been fantastic. I especially mention Marilyn Little, Anne Carter, and the chief executive, Brendan Boyle for their outstanding service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EFinally, and most important, I thank the people of Auckland who contributed through their submissions to the work of the royal commission and the select committee considering this bill. There has been huge interest in the development of the policies of Auckland that are now expressed in this important bill. We listened to what people had to say, and we responded to their ideas and concerns. This is a bill that Auckland needs. Auckland\u2019s success and New Zealand\u2019s success go hand in hand. Getting Auckland right is in the interest of all New Zealanders, and certainly this Parliament. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002260c9cf0945ff4a3c945cdc91288d6214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260c9cf0945ff4a3c945cdc91288d6214\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I also start by thanking the officials who worked with the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. They were a dedicated lot who worked under pressure, transporting the select committee from place to place around Auckland, and I thank them. I thank the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, because at least they let us know what they thought. They were very clear about that. That is not to say I agree with them. We disagreed on many things, but those members were very clear about what they thought. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EBut the rest of the Cabinet members who come from Auckland are condemned by their silence. We have what the Minister described as a world-class city ahead of us, laying the foundations for the future. The driver of the New Zealand economy will be the Auckland super-city. Where were the Auckland Ministers? Why were they not saying anything? They were probably learning about family trusts from Bill English, which are far more important than the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWe need to be very mindful that people were looking forward to seeing how their submissions would be treated by Cabinet. I thank the submitters on the bill. They made some very good suggestions, and they were sincere. Some of them were nervous when they came before the select committee, which is understandable. The submitters expected something: they expected they would be listened to. We hear the National members say they have been listening to submitters. I think even Chris Tremain has been listening, so he said. But where were the Auckland members of the executive? The only one from the National Government who got up and gave a speech was Jonathan Coleman. He got up once. There were over 200 speaking opportunities, according to the Chair. There were over 200 speaking opportunities, and Jonathan Coleman got up once. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe process regarding this bill is all about the madness of John Key. I think he was mad to leave it to people like Nikki Kaye to carry on the debate. I acknowledge that as a new member she took on a lot. I did not agree with her very often, but she took on a lot. She arranged for the subcommittee to go to Great Barrier Island, and she took the committee to Waiheke. It had a nice day out at the beach, and that is wonderful. But when we look at the issues, we have to ask why Ministers did not come down to the Chamber and take calls. That shows up the Government really badly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EPansy Wong is the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs and the member for Botany. She is a Cantabrian from way back, who came to Parliament via Philip Burdon. Now she is the MP for Botany. She came into the Chamber and sat in the chair, but she did not say a thing. She should tell the residents of Cockle Bay, Meadowlands, and Flatbush where she has been and what she has been doing. Did she advocate on their behalf? In Cockle Bay, Daniel Yu and Fiona Jeffcoat-Yu have been fighting to prevent the installation of a cellphone tower in Litten Road in Howick. How much confidence will they have over the new super-city, when an ordinary constituents\u2019 matter goes by the board? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EJudith Collins, the MP for Papakura, went to a meeting with a thousand people. John Carter got up; he took the flak. I think three people voted in favour of the proposal. Why did John Carter have to do that, when the local member sat there and said very little? I want to talk about how Papakura has been represented. I used to walk down the Great South Road in Papakura and see people like the Hon Merv Wellington. He was not an MP whom I voted for, but I had a lot of admiration for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd77e8d99a544c678a44563684d8fa6c\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222917b03f0874e71856162d827391f6e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Merv Wellington. He actually looked after his community. The Papakura community is now being neglected. People like Warren Kyd listened to what people had to say. He would have listened to submitters, but it does not happen any more. We have a mayor in Papakura who is absolutely adored by the community. He will be shattered by this legislation. I have to say the concerns of the people of Papakura are not being listened to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EI will talk about Manukau, Manurewa, Manukau East, and M\u0101ngere, where the three MPs held a referendum on the issue. We got out and found out what people had to say. The results were staggering. People felt that the Government was not listening at all. That is right; the Government was not listening. You see, the Government had an agenda and it had a way of ramming the legislation through the House. Yes, 16 hours\u2019 debate for the Committee stage of this bill is good, but why, for 2\u00BD hours, did no National MP take a call? That is what happened yesterday morning; not one National member took a call. Whose idea was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229caf63c61be44b45a9d5bf9e106219eb\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got nothing to say about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd623d7c4be343b8a2c5dd7046e78345\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am talking about how the Government did not listen to the people of Auckland. The young lady should get that into her head, because that is important to Aucklanders. It is absolutely important to Aucklanders. You cannot sit there with a smug smile, nodding your head. You do not understand Auckland. I do not know whether you have ever been there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921bf3bea80b4073b61cdf054081d5e7\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e3ab27b51b45f0aa98ecad9e907a49\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. I know that you are a very fine member. I was talking about the National junior whip\u2014my apologies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe member for Maungakiekie decided to take a call after a lot of provocation. He is a councillor; he could have made a huge contribution to the debate on this bill. But did he? Not at all. As we look around we see again that the Chamber is not full of people. They are not interested in this bill. That is rather sad. My colleagues will be talking about the substantive issues in this bill, but I think it is very important to lay out clearly that the executive has failed Aucklanders. It has absolutely failed them, because Government members have not got up and explained things. Rodney Hide is not popular with the people. People saw John Carter doing the work. But where were the other Ministers? What have they done? They have turned their backs on people and said they would leave it to the backbench. They have left it to people like Tau Henare. He used to be a New Zealand First member, then he became a Mauri Pacific member, and now the only people who do not like him are those from National, as he goes sliding down its list. Tau Henare could not get out of the vote for this bill; I feel very sorry for him. Georgina te Heuheu has previously had something to say about issues such as those raised by this bill, but when it came to the Auckland area and M\u0101ori representation she said nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EWhere was the executive? The executive should be held to account. That is how Parliament works. The Opposition questions the executive, but, no, it is not here to answer us. That is very sad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022787bebfe14574b0ab40a7cbb2d423212\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787bebfe14574b0ab40a7cbb2d423212\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on the third reading of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I was part of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, which heard the many hundreds of submissions on this second Auckland bill. It was a privilege to be part of the committee that went to all Auckland districts to hear the submitters. Every effort was made to ensure that all submitters who wanted to be heard were heard\u2014and they were. All credit goes to the Hon John Carter for his expertise and good humour in chairing the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis process really started over 50 years ago. Since that time, there has been a growing realisation that all was not well with the governance of Auckland. Frustration and concern has been growing. Traffic congestion has been an increasing problem; traffic has been grinding to a halt. The economy has suffered. Auckland is the powerhouse of New Zealand. When it grinds to a halt, New Zealand grinds to a halt. There has been red tape, duplication, and bureaucracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe previous Government formed the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, which, over 20 months, did a tremendous job. It consulted far and wide. At the end of its consultation it produced a comprehensive report. The royal commission stressed the importance of acting decisively and it stressed the impact of doing nothing. This Government has taken on board that report. We have acted decisively; we have moved quickly. We had to. We need to be ready for the Auckland local body elections in September 2010, and we will be. We are on track for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill is one of three on Auckland governance. It creates the Auckland Council. The most exciting change to the structure of the governance in Auckland is the creation of local boards. These are new structures. They are not the current community boards; they are not the current councils. They are new entities and they will have the status and powers that this legislation brings. We have given these local boards real local authority. These local boards will be required to have a holistic approach to their communities to promote the social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of communities within the local board area, in the present and for the future. Local boards will be required to listen to and consult their communities. Local boards must provide a local board plan. Local boards will have a dedicated budget to provide local services. These boards will not be toothless. The Auckland Council will be required to take on the views of the local board, and the views of the local board will have special status on the council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill is about empowering our diverse communities. It is about local boards getting back real local authority. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002281040c3fb49f487dbe7cf67596572b00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281040c3fb49f487dbe7cf67596572b00\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Given that I will give a more reflective contribution, I look forward to the time when simultaneous translation will be available in the House, so we can give our mihi to the Speaker in te reo and it will be suitably translated. Mr Deputy Speaker, I have enjoyed your stewardship of us in the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, along with that of your colleagues. It is a certain understated style, but it gives us an opportunity to vent and then come back, when necessary, to improve what has actually been a sorry bit of legislation. But, despite the wide array of amendments and Supplementary Order Papers that were put forward by this side of the House, we realise that we occupy a space that is dominated by realpolitik. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to focus on three or four things in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. The first is the theme of accountability. We have described \u201Csuper-city\u201D in M\u0101ori as \u201Che t\u0101one koromatua\u201D because we could not quite find a sexy way of describing it. \u201CKoromatua\u201D gives one the notion that it is something extremely large. The super-city will have such a powerful level of influence on the economy of the lives of garden-variety Kiwis, whether they are in the leafy suburbs or in \u201CStrugglers\u2019 Gully\u201D, so Labour members put a lot of effort, during their contributions, into considering how those people will be elected and how many there will be. I do not propose to say much more in relation to the issue of M\u0101ori seats, other than to record our disappointment that we did not ensnare the necessary level of support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d975b59e734f08ac0a5baf8a165f90\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What about the sell-out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022866bb486ace143dcbd741cb0cb680064\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we had Tau Henare; I accept that Tau Henare\u2019s style of oratory is to give speeches in anger, which is why his greatest speeches are those he goes on to regret. We have had contributions from some of the Auckland MPs, but I was disappointed when it got to accountability that we did not hear more from the councillor of Auckland City, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga. He came to the House with such a huge amount of promise for the people he purportedly represents not only in that particular area but also the people he comes from. It was very disappointing. Of course, we have heard from Nikki Kaye, and that is fine. She was a very industrious member of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. However, her level of influence over her colleagues shows that she is from the lilliputian part of the National Party: lots of contributions but a tiny level of influence. But that is the nature of the cycle for her. Sam Lotu-Iiga is about to learn that there is a difference between vacant and vacuous. \u201CVacant\u201D is the seat he currently occupies and is about to lose, and \u201Cvacuous\u201D was the nature of the contributions he made during the debates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet us come back to the aspect of accountabilities. M\u0101ori people actually wanted their own seats. They are not antagonistic towards P\u0101keh\u0101 representatives, or anyone else, but they wanted their issues and their agenda to be represented at the place of power by one of their own. Rodney Hide\u2019s contribution was to say that M\u0101ori are the hoi polloi, and people are capable of representing them whether or not they choose those representatives. So we saw that classic conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe second issue is cost efficiency. The reality is that one of the most powerful forces in the new super-city will without doubt be the bureaucracy. The debate ebbed and flowed about whether Auckland will be better off by having this super-empowered mayoralty office, but I tell members that the characters who will have inordinate power will be the chief executive officer, then the managers, and then the divisions. That is why, unless we have the right governance structure, they will run the show. If we do not put enough mechanisms and safeguards into the structure\u2014and we have not, unfortunately\u2014they will be the ones who drive up the rates. People up and down the super-city boundary are fearful that after the National Government\u2019s model, all that will happen is that costs will go up, which will feed an appetite within the bureaucracy to set a higher rate. So I do not think that we heard enough in the Committee stage from the Ministers responsible for the bill or from the National members as to how they believe that the super-city will manage its cost structure. It is perverse that the Minister who is sponsoring this legislation, who has cultivated a reputation as being not only a perk-buster but anti-regulation, has actually ended up presiding over the creation of a structure that will be very costly, and, more than likely, not particularly accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere was some discussion that the \u201Csatellite committees\u201D, which is what I am calling the community boards\u2014they will revolve around the large planet with its gravitational pull, and will have to go back to the table of the super-city to get authority, money, and mandate\u2014will be poorly staffed, and the quality of people they will attract will lead to a weaker type of governance because people will not be attracted to understaffed, under-resourced committees. They will go and do other things with their lives because, at the end of the day, politics, which is what we are asking them to do\u2014to get involved in political governance\u2014is a voluntary activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that Labour expressed considerable concern about\u2014and I think future Ministers will have to deal with this issue\u2014is the existence of monopolies. There is the Auckland water infrastructure. I do not want to focus, in any negative way, on how the provision of water-related services will happen in Auckland, other than to say that once we have a monopoly we must have an agency that can effect regulatory oversight. If we do not have a mechanism that monitors and challenges the behaviour of any monopoly, then it is the consumers who pay. That is why it was very, very disappointing that Mr Hide did not choose to take up the suggestion of the royal commission and have a performance auditor. That is not to deprecate any of the people working for the monopoly, but monopolies have a life-force of their own. If there is an opportunity to gouge or to take more than, perhaps, a market or competitive system would allow, that tends to be what happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI also reflect on the fact that during the time that the select committee and the M\u0101ori subcommittee sat, people came with a genuine desire to improve the system of governance. They have been left with not so much a hotchpotch outcome but a system over which, at the end of the day, they will have very little influence. To influence this system, they will have to get into the power room, and the power room has some obstacles along the way. Those obstacles have to do with the cost of running a campaign and with the difficulty caused by an inbuilt bias that is now in the electoral system. People will also have to deal with the difficult question of how, given the limited number of super-city councillors, the voices of the average citizens of Auckland will be accurately translated into action in the council if there are not a suitably large number of representatives. We know that the M\u0101ori representatives have been written out of the script. There is only one way that M\u0101ori representatives will end up there, and that is if they join a team that treasures the M\u0101ori contribution to the life of the super-city or, in our case, the life of the nation State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn wrapping up, I congratulate the officials on the work undertaken, and congratulate all the people who made an effort to make their contributions. I also acknowledge the role that John Carter played in demonstrating that a Northlander was able to come from the k\u016Bmara gardens of Kaipara and be a punching bag for his own party. He could take the blame\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e623343ce5034d6db531b8950ebd0b6e\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: You shouldn\u2019t talk about yourself like that, Shane. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222687e1ee84a4604a45ebcd4602de320\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have to say that, because there is a great M\u0101ori proverb \u201Ca k\u016Bmara never boasts about his own sweetness\u201D. It falls to me as a fellow Northlander to describe how, when the k\u016Bmara goes into the h\u0101ngi, a certain odour wafts, and, unfortunately, that was the nature of John\u2019s contribution on the key aspects of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a556b7aa18427cb41de20b44f964bb\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call from the Green Party is a split call. Each member will have a 5-minute call, and there will be a warning bell at 4 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5d036d29275483b9dce39f29e3ff0d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5d036d29275483b9dce39f29e3ff0d0\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is apt, I guess, that we are holding the final debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill under urgency today, as urgency has characterised the whole process around the changes to Auckland governance ever since the royal commission first reported back. The Government\u2019s response to the royal commission\u2019s report took only hours, or at least that was what it seemed like at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Government then introduced the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Bill, which went through all stages in the House without any consideration whatsoever by a select committee. Then this second bill appeared, to be dealt with quick smart, and quick it has been, although I am not so sure about the smart. At least this time round the public submissions process was allowed, and I am sure that every MP who had the privilege of sitting on the select committee to hear those submissions was as impressed as I was by the number, quality, and heartfelt energy of those who came to give their views, from whatever part of the Auckland region and from whatever perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the Green Party I thank all submitters, whether or not I was lucky enough to hear them in person. The calibre of the content of submissions, and the passion with which they were presented, even by those of political persuasions quite different from my own, gives me great hope for the future of our city and region. I also take this opportunity to acknowledge everyone involved with the select committee, which had a fairly gruelling task in its early weeks; I thank the Green MPs who sacrificed days off to step in for me when I could not break longstanding commitments, and the chairperson of the committee, John Carter, for the courtesy and humour with which he led his little flock on a pilgrimage around the farthest reaches of our far-flung city\u2014and some of us did get lost on a few occasions trying to find the locations of the select committee hearings. I also acknowledge my fellow MPs on the committee from all parties, most of whom were absolutely dedicated to the huge job that we were tasked with. Last but not least I acknowledge the long-suffering officials, who worked with us in shifts, night and day, over a protracted period, and then had to face extremely tight deadlines back at home base.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party continues to oppose this bill on a number of grounds, even though we realise that some improvements have been made to the original version. We particularly endorse the removal of the provision for at-large councillors, and the intention that most of the city be divided into multi-member wards. We seem to have some disagreement with our Labour Party colleagues on this matter, as we see multi-member wards as one of the best ways of ensuring diversity of representation, especially given that we are stuck with a first-past-the-post voting system. We are also pleased with the recommendation that Waiheke and Great Barrier have their own separate local boards, and that the rest of the region be divided into between 20 to 30 local board areas, based on communities of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOn the question of the powers and responsibilities of local boards, I realise that this has been a little contentious for us, but I think it is a step forward that the bill as amended includes statutory decision-making powers for the boards, incorporates the principle of subsidiarity, and requires the Auckland Council to consider the views expressed by local boards on regional as well as local issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI hope that in the third bill on Auckland governance we will see a further strengthening and clarification of the boards\u2019 powers and roles, and more detail on issues like funding and staffing of boards and remuneration for board members. I am sorry that the Government has not seen fit to pick up the Green amendment extending the minimum number of board members from four to 11, as we simply do not believe boards can operate with any real efficacy as a balance to the council if board membership remains as low as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOn the question of the northern boundary, the Government has missed a golden opportunity to do the right thing. Although the Greens endorse the Government\u2019s last-minute decision to pull northern Rodney back into Auckland city, I believe that what should have happened, as per the Supplementary Order Paper I put before the Committee, is that the very northernmost part of the district should have gone to Kaipara on the west coast and to Northland on the east coast. I hope further consideration might be given to this matter at a future date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThere are several other lost opportunities in the bill that are far more significant. The first is in relation to M\u0101ori representation. This bill was a chance for the new Government to show faith with the M\u0101ori Party, with all those who marched on the h\u012Bkoi in May, and with the submitters who told us that guaranteed M\u0101ori representation on the new council must happen. It is a disgrace that this has not occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfd805ccac6d48e2ae7a6fc5f2a7344a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfd805ccac6d48e2ae7a6fc5f2a7344a\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I warn Aucklanders that there is a right-wing agenda behind the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, which is, after all, masterminded by Rodney Hide, whose party has a stated agenda of seeking to privatise local government assets and to reduce local government democracy\u2014just look on the ACT website. The right-wing agenda is to set up a structure that gives the mayor, who could be elected by as little as 20 percent of Aucklanders under first past the post, the ability to exert almost total control over the council. He\u2014and I use the word \u201Che\u201D advisedly\u2014will appoint all chairs and will be able to appoint himself as chair of any committee, and this will give him and his inner cabal control over the votes as well as the agenda of council. He will decide when and if the council will consult with Aucklanders, and he will draw up the budget, the strategy, and the long-term plan, and this will give him the ability to control the council and drive through an agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe mayor will also, of course, have control over local boards, which are even smaller than community boards but with slightly increased powers. Sure, local boards will have the ability to advocate for their communities and propose by-laws, and they will have some as yet unspecified functions, but I ask how they can be empowered, as Mr Carter keeps claiming, when they have no staff of their own, no autonomy, no independent source of finance, no ability to deliver services, and even no representation on the Auckland Council, which will control their budgets and resources. Fundamentally, they will be totally beholden to the council, which, despite what John Carter says, has the power to veto virtually any decision of the local board. This is in the much-vaunted principle of subsidiarity; just look at the clauses that provide the ability to veto virtually any decision of a local board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe need to remember that these tiny local boards will be replacing Auckland councils that are very well functioning and autonomous. On the one hand we will have a council, the largest organisation in New Zealand, with $28 billion of assets, and representing one-third of New Zealand. We are setting up a sort of state government. This council will be controlled by a mayor and his inner cabal, with executive powers that no other mayor in New Zealand has. On the other hand, the only counterbalance will be the 20 to 30 tiny local boards in this legislation, which are subservient to the governing body of the Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAucklanders need to be very careful about who they vote for as mayor next year. If they vote in John Banks, this legislation will give him the powers and the tools to become a sort of tsar of Auckland and to push through a radical agenda including privatisation. It is no wonder John Banks says that he already has 600 staff working for him on his campaign team, because there is so much at stake here. If, on the other hand, Aucklanders were wise enough to vote in a mayoral candidate who genuinely wants to empower local boards and to give them as much power as is possible under this bill, and who does not want to run the council as a fiefdom, then there is a possibility that we could have some form of local democracy through the boards. The choice is stark, and it is up to Aucklanders. But, ultimately, even if we have a progressive candidate next time round, as long as this legislation is in place, in subsequent elections we could still allow a mayoral fiefdom in the super-city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI would like to end with a warning from the Mayor of North Shore. He said that it will only be a matter of time before communities in Auckland realise that, despite all the lofty promises, their democratic right to decide local issues for their local area has now been passed to 20 councillors in Queen Street who will call all the shots. There will certainly be a community backlash, he predicts, once local communities start approaching their new local boards for better services, only to be told that the best they can do is advocate their case to the Auckland Council or try to plead their case for inclusion in the next Auckland Council long-term or annual plan, providing they can secure the funding and there are no regional issues at play. There will be 1 year, when this legislation is in place, for Aucklanders to come to grips with the full implications of what is being set up under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022 data-id=\u00228e09519298524591b336e2141f62b02e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e09519298524591b336e2141f62b02e\u0022\u003EJOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to speak in this third reading of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, and I thank National for allowing me to take one of its calls. As a member of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, it is a privilege to speak on this bill. The select committee heard from over 800 submitters. There were well over 1,000 written submissions, and over 800 individuals or groups were heard by the select committee. It was a very arduous process. In the first 2 weeks the committee sat from 9 in the morning until 9 in the evening, on most days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the comments of Sue Bradford. She talked about the quality of the submissions, and the passion with which they were delivered, and she said it left her feeling very optimistic for the future of our city. I totally concur. It was a privilege to sit and listen to the submissions, and to hear from so many community groups. We also heard from many local councillors. A councillor from Waitakere, the former Mayor of Glen Eden, had been serving the people of west Auckland as an elected representative for over 40 years, and what a contribution she has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the chairmanship of the Hon John Carter. Members of the committee were spelled at various times, but John Carter was there every morning at 9 o\u2019clock and he was there every evening at 9 p.m. when we finished. He sat through every submission, and chaired every meeting. His dedication, his commitment, and his hard work was beyond equal. I have never seen anything like it. I found it hard, and I do not know how John Carter coped, because he did not actually get a break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI would like to contrast the differing approaches from National and Labour, which I found particularly interesting. National members on the committee\u2014Simon Bridges, Jackie Blue, Nikki Kaye, and Tau Henare\u2014basically came every day. Yes, we were spelled on the odd occasion, and the Hon John Carter did a very good job of marshalling his troops and making sure we were well watered and fed, but by and large the National members attended the committee every day, so those individual members can speak with authority because they heard most of the submissions. I contrast that with Labour\u2019s position. I prefer the approach that Labour took, because its members were spelled regularly. Several Labour members sat on the select committee. They may not have sat on the committee for the entire time, but Phil Twyford and George Hawkins certainly spent a lot of time on it. Many other Labour members sat in on the proceedings, maybe for just half a day or for a day, so they will have gained a very, very good view\u2014probably more so than the National MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EHow demoralising it must be for Labour members to have to participate in this debate. So many of them heard those submissions, and one could not possibly sit through that select committee process and come away with any other conclusion than that there is overwhelming support in Auckland for a super-city. There is overwhelming support. Although I know that there are probably only five National MPs who sat through the proceedings personally, I know there had to be at least 20, if not 25, Labour MPs who sat through that process. Even the Hon Phil Goff turned up to the first 2 hours of deliberations on the first Monday, in order to appear on television. How demoralising it was, then, for Labour members to have to go through that debate, and to have to stand up and oppose the overwhelming wish of the citizens of Auckland to have one city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet us look at some of the contributions that have been made. I am very much aware that the general public sees just the ping-pong between the Government and the Opposition. As one person stands up for the issue, another one stands up to oppose it, and the public are probably often wondering who is right. I would like to comment on some of the contributions that were made last night. We heard from George Hawkins. He talked about the cost of the super-city, and about having to go from eight computer systems to one computer system. I ask George Hawkins and the Labour Party what the cost is of eight computer systems. What did it cost to put eight computer systems there in the first place? If we do not have a super-city, what will it cost to replace those eight computer systems? Yes, they may not be replaced at the same time, but Papakura District Council is going to replace its computer system, as is Waitakere District Council and North Shore City Council. Eventually it will happen. What we have is massive economies of scale. We are moving from eight councils, and eight computer systems, to one computer system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EOne of the overriding themes in this debate has been the issue of M\u0101ori seats. What have we just heard from the Hon Shane Jones? He said that M\u0101ori want their issues, their agenda, represented at the top table. What about the agenda of the Pacific peoples? What about the agenda of the Asian peoples? We heard from Su\u2019a William Sio, a person whom I have come to respect for the contribution he made on the select committee. Yesterday he said that the Pacific community was prepared to put on hold its aspirations to be at the top table. What Su\u2019a William Sio was really saying to this House was that, yes, they would like to be there too. Without a doubt, they would like to be there too, but they are happy for M\u0101ori to have the M\u0101ori seats first; they will go with that first. Then we will have Pacific seats, and who knows where it will stop?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I found most moving about my participation in the select committee process was the element of M\u0101ori culture from the M\u0101ori submitters, the formality of the M\u0101ori submissions, and the karakia at the beginning when the Manukau City Council presented its submission. That council\u2019s submission was just one of many submissions to start the proceedings in a very formal way. M\u0101ori culture is unique to New Zealand, and it is something we should all cherish. But surely the major argument, the one key argument, against having M\u0101ori seats or any seats divided by race is that we are one people, we are one country, and we want to go together. I say that the reason we do not have M\u0101ori seats is that if we have M\u0101ori seats, then we will have Pacific seats and Asian seats. Who knows? One day we will probably have white seats. The dynamics of New Zealand are changing, and one day European people will be in the minority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet me go further. Su\u2019a William Sio undermined his own argument. He was a former deputy mayor of Manukau City. There are 20-odd councillors on the Manukau City Council. He was elected as a councillor for the \u014Ctara ward, and he was elected as the deputy mayor of Manukau City. He was the second-highest official in Manukau City, New Zealand\u2019s largest-growing city. Did he win that position as a result of there being a specific seat for Pacific Islanders? No, he did not. He won it by being elected on a first-past-the-post basis for the \u014Ctara ward. I have heard mentioned the name Sam Lotu-Iiga, the member for Maungakiekie. Sam Lotu-Iiga was also elected to the Auckland City Council for the Maungakiekie ward on a first-past-the-post basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003EI would like to comment briefly on the contribution made by David Shearer. He talked about the fact that the mayor of Rodney was listened to because she was a former ACT MP. What utter rubbish! The submission of the Rodney District Council showed that the council was totally opposed to going into Auckland City, so that is far from the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet me finish by mentioning last night\u2019s contribution by Lynne Pillay. She said that there should be a referendum on this issue. How many times have we heard over the last 36 hours that there should be a referendum on this issue? I ask the members of the Labour Party what the point is of a referendum. We have actually just had one. [Interruption] That is right, Mr Cosgrove. We have just had a referendum. Mr Cosgrove knows that I am holding a meeting in his Waimakariri electorate next Monday night because 27,000 people voted No in Waimakariri, and only 16,000 voted for Mr Cosgrove. The reason I am holding a public meeting in Waimakariri is to try to get support for my member\u2019s bill. I believe that people in Waimakariri need to be listened to, and Waimakariri is a Labour electorate. About 11,000 more people voted No than voted for their local MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003ELet me conclude by saying that it was a privilege to serve on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. It was a privilege to get to know other members of Parliament, particularly the Labour members of Parliament. I would say that at least 20, if not 25, members of the Labour Opposition attended the select committee at various times. It was a pleasure to get to know them, and it was a pleasure to get to know Sue Bradford. It has been a privilege and a pleasure to serve on this select committee. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022d756ad7d998a4a99be6170a6f4ed1bd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d756ad7d998a4a99be6170a6f4ed1bd8\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Outside this Chamber the date today is actually 17 September, and it is a day to remember. Four years ago, on 17 September 2005, the M\u0101ori Party took the nation by surprise, capturing four of the seven M\u0101ori seats, in a spectacular demonstration of M\u0101ori political power. There is no doubt that the previous Government\u2019s decision in 2004 to legislate away M\u0101ori rights to the foreshore and seabed was the trigger to the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s establishment. The M\u0101ori Party became a vehicle in which to channel the intense discontent expressed by New Zealanders over an action that sought to erode the status of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua, and the human rights protections guaranteed and affirmed to us under te Tiriti o Waitangi. But the vehicle that brought us into Parliament was also a powerful force for M\u0101ori political representation\u2014to articulate a strong and independent M\u0101ori voice in every aspect of the parliamentary programme. This was exactly what we sought for Auckland: the right to articulate a strong and independent M\u0101ori voice in every aspect of the local government agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThroughout the long hours of this debate we have brought to the House the aspirations of iwi and M\u0101ori submitters around M\u0101ori representation in local bodies and participation in local governance. They asked Parliament to invest in the full participation of M\u0101ori in governance arrangements. Iwi and M\u0101ori submitters sought to increase M\u0101ori representation in local governance bodies. They shared the experience of the establishment of M\u0101ori wards provided for under the Local Electoral Act 2001, as, indeed, the Bay of Plenty Regional Council has done. They expressed the importance of recognising te Tiriti o Waitangi in local governance arrangements, including the rangatiratanga, kaitiakitanga, and manaakitanga rights and responsibilities of mana whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge today our profound sadness at the way in which mana whenua have been treated by this Government in this decision today. Earlier this morning the chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, the Hon John Carter, rose and praised the process as having reflected the heartbeat of Auckland. I want to offer the wisdom of one of our well-known whakatauk\u012B, which guides us in the pivotal role that mana whenua play in our land: \u201CH\u016Btia te rito o te harakeke, kei hea te k\u014Dmako, e k\u014D? K\u012B mai ki ahau, he aha te mea nui o te ao? M\u0101ku e k\u012B atu, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E[If the centre shoot of the flax plant is plucked out, where will the bellbird go? Ask me what is the greatest thing in the world, and I will respond, it is mankind, it is mankind, it is mankind.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EMana whenua representation has been fundamental to the history and the evolution of T\u0101maki-makau-rau. The respective iwi have adopted a collaborative approach to building the city of Auckland. Tangata whenua have worked alongside the founding fathers to establish New Zealand\u2019s largest city. All the time they have maintained their obligations of manaakitanga and kaitiakitanga, to look after all the people who settle within their territories. Mana whenua, in essence, are the pounding heart of every rohe. They hold occupational rights and interests over tribal areas, and they will continue to hold this role no matter what the vote tells them today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua spokesman Ng\u0101rimu Blair shared this view in a comment he made yesterday: \u201CWhen we look at struggles, we don\u2019t think of three year terms, like our Pakeha politicians do, our people think in blocs of generations and know it\u2019s inevitable that there will be M\u0101ori seats in Auckland and across the country\u201D. So I pay my tributes today to the generosity of mana whenua, their patience, and their longstanding optimism that will continue to provide the heartbeat to T\u0101maki-makau-rau, with or without this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party sought to exercise creativity in putting forward five different options to honour the desire for M\u0101ori representation. We put forward amendments for two mana whenua seats, candidates put up by mana whenua and voted on by all M\u0101ori; for two mana whenua seats in which candidates sign a whakapapa declaration, voted on by all M\u0101ori; for two M\u0101ori seats voted on by all M\u0101ori; for one M\u0101ori seat voted on by all M\u0101ori; and for ensuring that Local Electoral Act 2001 provisions are lawful if Auckand Council members or electors want to establish M\u0101ori seats. One by one, each of these amendments was voted down. It reflected indeed the supposition of Te Wai\u014Dhua, which told the select committee that without special acknowledgment of the Treaty partner they predicted a form of political ghettoisation where M\u0101ori are in a minority and are overridden in every vote cast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the support of Labour, the Green Party, the Progressive party, and individual National MPs who supported these amendments, and in doing so supported the right and responsibility for mana whenua representation. I have to commend the initiative of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, which recommended that the M\u0101ori seats should have been made a conscience issue, to enable MPs from National to cross the floor on such a critical issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua themselves have admitted that they have been here before. In 2007 the Waitangi Tribunal castigated the Labour Government for the sloppy way in which it had approached negotiations with Auckland iwi. Just 2 years on, we see another shameful episode, which throws into question the Government\u2019s understanding of the constitutional rights and obligations of partnership under the Treaty of Waitangi, applied between the Crown and the mana whenua, which gifted land on which Auckland City is built. Today our thoughts are with the people of Ng\u0101i Tai, Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri, Ng\u0101ti Maru, Ng\u0101ti P\u0101oa, Ng\u0101ti Rehua, Ng\u0101ti Te Ata - Wai o Hua, Ng\u0101ti Tamaoho, Ng\u0101ti Tamater\u0101, Ng\u0101ti Whanaunga, Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua, Tainui, Te Ahiwaru, Te Akitai, and Te Kawerau-a-Maki. These people have generously opened their arms and welcomed people into their rohe. We recognise the magnanimity of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua in granting the opportunity to establish a settlement that would flourish socially and economically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E I am thinking, too, of the 15,000 people who walked in the h\u012Bkoi to call for M\u0101ori seats in the super-city, and the 80 percent of the submissions supporting these seats as being the strongest form of M\u0101ori representation. The decision today is not just one of exclusive import to the people of Auckland. The Local Government Act 2002 requires that local governments acknowledge the authority of mana whenua. As provided for in the Treaty, tangata whenua should have an equitable say in the decisions that affect them, via Treaty-based representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI listened to the Minister sponsoring this bill, the Hon Rodney Hide, say that getting Auckland right is in the interests of all Aucklanders, and all New Zealanders as well. I have to say that we have not got it right in terms of M\u0101ori representation. We have not got it right in terms of supporting M\u0101ori communities and advancing M\u0101ori representation through forms such as the single transferable vote, through M\u0101ori representative positions on council committees and advisory bodies, nor through the M\u0101ori seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EI bring back to the House the words of my colleague Hone Harawira: \u201CThe report of the committee is unjust, improper, and politically motivated. The bill signals an enduring and profoundly disturbing fear of sharing decision-making with M\u0101ori as provided for in the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EFinally, in the spirit of anniversaries, I reflect on the historic Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which was signed 2 years ago this week. Article 18 of that declaration agreed that indigenous peoples have the right to participate in decision making in matters that would affect their rights, through representatives chosen by they themselves. What harm would it have done to share decision making, to invest in M\u0101ori representation, and to engage with tangata whenua, the first peoples of this land? I guess we will never know. But the heart will keep beating; the call of the people for justice, for dignity, for representation, will continue. We know that it is inevitable that one day there will be M\u0101ori seats in Auckland, and across the nation. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022 data-id=\u002262acdb37a6e9430ca1da82a7adf30892\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262acdb37a6e9430ca1da82a7adf30892\u0022\u003ENIKKI KAYE (National\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E We are here to deliver a system of local government to Auckland and to New Zealand. We are delivering that system for a unique city in the world; it is a city that is unique in terms of our people and our geography. The system being delivered will have an impact on all of New Zealand for generations, with one strong, regional entity that will finally be able to focus on delivering more equitable services across the region, and with strong local boards so that people can better influence what goes on in their community. It is a system that will help to deliver better services for the arts, that will help to deliver better services for people with disabilities, that will help to deliver a better public transport system, and that will help Aucklanders finally to grab the opportunities and the quality of life that the people of Auckland deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EAucklanders have been waiting for this system for 50 years. After the royal commission process, which took 18 months and 3,500 submissions, the consideration of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, which sat for hundreds of hours with over 2,500 people involved, and the passage through the House of two pieces of legislation, with one more piece to go, there is no time to delay. Most Aucklanders, including the 6,500 people working in local government who need certainty for themselves and for their families, and the local body politicians who are already out there campaigning, are saying that we need to get on with it. The local body elections are 12 months away, and 50 years is long enough to wait. As a result of the submissions and of listening to the people of Auckland, the legislation has changed significantly: it includes beefed-up powers, changes to the boundaries, the principle of subsidiarity except where there is a clear regional interest, and properly resourced boards with access to staff and facilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EThe Opposition actually agrees with National members on the basic system of local government that is being delivered, which is one regional entity with strong local boards. Where we differ, and where I am proud to be on this side of the House, is that we believe in stronger grassroots democracy. I am proud to be delivering strong local boards to the people of Waiheke Island and Great Barrier Island, who have been after a stronger voice for a long period of time. With the exception of M\u0101ori representation, the opposing Labour arguments have focused on whipping up mythical fears about problems that do not exist, and then delivering half-baked legislative amendments to fix those mythical problems. I have a lot of confidence in Auckland\u2019s local body politicians. I do not believe that they are going to sell all of Auckland\u2019s assets. There was a push from Pacific, youth, and Asian communities to have a stronger voice, and the issue of whether there needs to be legislation to address this will be looked at in the third bill. Putting forward legislation on advisory boards without wide consultation would be a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI believe that Auckland would be better off with stronger local body M\u0101ori representation. I acknowledge the passionate and heartfelt representations of the submitters, the M\u0101ori Party, and my colleagues, including Tau Henare, on this issue. Parliament is a better place for having the M\u0101ori Party here. Its members are some of the hardest-working politicians in this House. For me, the issue is not whether there should be stronger representation, but how we achieve that. There are provisions within the Electoral Act to have a referendum on this issue. It is likely that, with mayoral candidates campaigning on this issue, we could see a referendum in Auckland some time in the future. We know that those referendums have not been successful in the past, but I have confidence that Aucklanders will do what is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed2d10c1-43b7-41d9-9f5c-0c313f70e625\u0022\u003EI thank all MPs from both sides of the House and the officials who have worked on this bill, and I thank the Hon John Carter and the Hon Rodney Hide for their leadership. Today is a historic day for Auckland. The new system of local government is only part of what will make Auckland the best city in the world. Let us not forget that it is people who matter: one strong city with many diverse villages. It is a time of immense opportunity for Auckland and New Zealand. I am proud to be part of a historic process focusing on delivering a new era of local government for the people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u00220c22e70e825c40b19574e9eb79f70e6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c22e70e825c40b19574e9eb79f70e6a\u0022\u003ESU\u2019A WILLIAM SIO (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E I say to the House e ng\u0101 mana, e ng\u0101 iwi, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101, e ng\u0101 k\u0101rangaranga maha, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Malo e lelei. Talofa lava. Kia orana tatou katoatoa. Ni sa bula vinaca. Fakalofa lahi atu. Ni hao ma. Namaste. Sat sri akaal. I think it is important that I reflect to the House the languages spoken by the people of the Auckland region, in order to give members a bit of a taste of the diversity that exists in the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI also want to use those comments to acknowledge the hundreds and hundreds of submitters who came from the four corners of Auckland to put forward their views and their opinions, who gave their time and energy, and who took time off work to contribute to the work of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and to this debate overall. I particularly acknowledge my colleagues in the Labour Party who, by and large, have attempted to do their best to reflect to the Government the views that have been expressed by the people of Auckland. In particular, I acknowledge the Hon George Hawkins, who has led our team of MPs on the select committee. I also acknowledge the other Opposition members on the select committee, and, to be fair, I also thank the members from the Government side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EOne of the submitters whom select committee members will be aware of is councillor Efu Koka, who submitted in Manukau. The first question that he asked the Government members of the committee was: \u201CAre you listening?\u201D. There was a deafening silence. The submitters in the room, including M\u0101ori women from the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, then chastised the ACT member on the select committee because he was playing on his phone. He was not listening to the submitters. Throughout the debate the theme from the people of Auckland has been that this Government is not listening to the voices of the people who will be affected by this change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EWe have to ask ourselves what this debate is all about. From Labour\u2019s perspective it is about setting up a vehicle, a democratic structural governance model that will ensure the full potential of the Auckland region is released now and in the future. Labour wants the Auckland region to be dynamic, inclusive, thriving, and progressive for all people, young and old, male and female, M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101, Pacific and Asian, Africans, Latin Americans\u2014for all people. We cannot take everyone on this journey into the future unless we ensure that the diversity of Auckland\u2019s communities is acknowledged, recognised, and tapped into. As a region, and indeed as a country, we must be comfortable with people of different colours, who speak different languages, who have different religious beliefs, and who have different lifestyles. We must take that diversity and find our unity and strength in it. \u201COur unity in our diversity\u201D is what we say in Manukau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAuckland is, after all, the region that impacts on the rest of the nation. It has been said that if Auckland sneezes, the rest of New Zealand gets a cold. The debate, then, is about how we ensure that Auckland, now and in the future, becomes strong, dynamic, thriving, and a progressive region that benefits all its people. To enable us to understand the governance structure, and for the benefit of our public, we have to ask what the values are that drive that change. From Labour\u2019s perspective, we acknowledge that any change to the governance structure requires united support from the regional and local authorities, and their peoples. Labour values consultation and taking everyone along in the change process; the Government does not. It listens but it does not hear. It rushed through the first bill, snuffing out the life of the existing local governments. It rushed through the select committee process, which has been called a sham by the people of Auckland. It will, no doubt, rush through the third bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour values a M\u0101ori voice; the Government does not. The Government listens to the race-based arguments of the ACT Party\u2014the party that has been dubbed the \u201C1 Percent Party\u201D\u2014and enhances Mr Hide\u2019s mana and no one else\u2019s. Labour values inclusiveness, where diversity is strength; the Government does not. Government members are determined to deliberately exclude M\u0101ori, Pacific, Asian, young people, and people with disabilities, because nowhere in that bill is there any recognition of that diversity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI say this in response to ACT member John Boscawen, who spoke earlier. The \u014Ctara ward is a ward of only 35,000 people and about 25,000 voters. Two councillors represent that ward on the Manukau City Council, and, yes, I was elected from that ward. I became the deputy mayor because I was elected by the councillors of the Manukau region. Two councillors represent 20,000 voters in the \u014Ctara ward. What is changing\u2014the big difference\u2014is that that we are deleting or extinguishing the life of those local authorities and replacing them with 20 councillors representing 1.4 million people in the Auckland region. Is that democracy? I say to members that it is not, and that is how the people of Auckland feel. There will be 20 councillors representing 1.4 million people, which is a population of over 70,000 for each councillor. That is more than the population represented by most MPs. In response to John Boscawen\u2019s comments about Pacific people supporting M\u0101ori seats, I say that it is the view of Pacific people that if the establishment, or the Man, does not get things right for M\u0101ori, how on earth will the establishment get it right for other minorities? What is wrong with having everybody on the governance structure? What is wrong with enabling participation from M\u0101ori, Pasifika, Asians, Africans, and Latin Americans? There is nothing wrong with that. What drives the Government\u2019s intent in not allowing for that participation is fear; it intends to keep the governance and the decision making to a select few. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELabour supports the reform of Auckland governance. It always has. But it wanted to take everybody with it. That is why there was a royal commission, which took 18 months to look at the issue. There needed to be more consultation. Labour opposes the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill because it is flawed and undemocratic, and because the whole consultation process has been a sham. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThere are two documents on the Table, which, no doubt, the public will eventually get to understand. The first is the select committee report. On the whole, I have to say that there was a genuine attempt by the select committee members to reflect what was said by submitters. Generally, the report provides the evidence, and it is basically reasonable. The other document on the Table is the bill itself with the amendments that have been made by the select committee. The clauses in the bill do not reflect the sentiments in that report. I want to say briefly that when it comes to local boards\u2014and I was pleased that the select committee listened to what the public said\u2014if we look at the report and then compare it with the amendments in the bill, we see that they do not align\u2014there is no recognition of the sentiments in the report. Let me show members. Clause 10, \u201CLocal boards\u201D, lists purposes. Those are nice words. Clause 12 is about their membership. There will be four to nine members. Clause 12A says that a local board\u2019s status is that of an unincorporated body. It recognises, in clause 13, functions, duties, and responsibilities. In terms of the principles for allocating responsibilities, clause 13A identifies activities that must be included in a long-term council community plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EThe bill talks about a funding policy and it talks about local boards having a plan. But the whole essence and crux of it is the fact that those local boards cannot act without agreement from the 20 people on the local council. In essence, they cannot move if they do not get permission from the local council. Again, I say we have an authority that will have an impact on the lives of the people of Auckland, and its power will be held by a minority few. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI want to briefly say that the issue of M\u0101ori seats was an important point in this debate. Others may say it was a small point, but it was a significant point. I want to read out something that I think the House will benefit from. It came from Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua. They say: \u201CIt is the presence of M\u0101ori which makes a large part of what makes New Zealand distinct from anywhere else\u2014what makes New Zealand and New Zealanders different. That is an important quality which should be valued, treasured, and safeguarded. M\u0101ori have a distinct contribution to make to New Zealand society. Ensuring a place at the top table enables such a contribution to take place.\u201D Auckland deserves better than what this Government is proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022072b74f328b746af8c6e6bdcd4656b79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022072b74f328b746af8c6e6bdcd4656b79\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E As Nicky Kaye has said, it was an unalloyed pleasure and a privilege to be on the historic Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, which dealt with such an important issue for Auckland and for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a93ea12da774ff789aec5378ee62672\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t speak too fast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293542d997ba44ff6a43827954ff9ba86\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: I can speed it up a little; I only have 3 minutes. Despite what the Opposition has said, the select committee process was an example of that process at its best. The select committee has been listening very hard. I do not mind saying that National members went to the committee with certain views about how things would go and certain preconceived views as to what would be best. But we listened and listened carefully. I know I did, and I am sure other members did, because we changed our views as a result of what we heard. The process was far from a sham, as the previous speaker, Su\u2019a William Sio, said it was. We heard from hundreds and hundreds of ordinary folk throughout all the diverse communities that make up Auckland. As I said, we did not just hear them; we listened to them and we made serious changes as a result of what they said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI will give members a couple of examples. We beefed up the local boards as a result of what submitters said to us. We beefed up boards substantially. In New Zealand we do not tend to like fancy concepts and principles, but we were influenced by the principle of subsidiarity, so we beefed up local boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a2b0eff9004935aa94f95a1b15bb3a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Are you from Auckland or Tauranga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2fa01533208456482a34490ff6f1b70\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: We put the \u201Clocal\u201D back into local government. The other thing we did\u2014which, again, was very much a listening exercise\u2014was listen to what people said about at-large seats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283001a76f82a46db8d467c1db1a8e762\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Are you from Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82277f06cdc44959cde79d222b1d618\u0022\u003ESIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: We did away with them, and we went with a ward system. I say in response to what I am hearing around the House that I came into this process somewhat as an outsider, but I enjoyed very much being part of the process and hearing from Aucklanders. Auckland is an important city and, like Tauranga, it will be a huge part of the future of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI finish, as I started, by telling members what a pleasure and a privilege it has been to be part of this important and future-focused project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022d06942aa96b24a859355b31548f1ca6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d06942aa96b24a859355b31548f1ca6e\u0022\u003EPHIL TWYFORD (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard some plaintive mews from the National benches saying that we in the Labour Opposition actually support the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, we support having a unitary authority and we support having one mayor. We support one council, one plan, and one rates bill. We support an integrated water company and a transport authority in public ownership. We support much, but not all, of what the royal commission recommended in March. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EHowever, we do not support this Government\u2019s ham-fisted mishandling of the Auckland governance reforms. We do not support the rushed process, the confiscation of Aucklanders\u2019 right to a referendum, the abuse of urgency in this House, and the fake listening campaign conducted by the members on the other side of the House. We do not support the ill-judged plans for powerless boards and at-large councillors, or the fiasco over M\u0101ori representation that saw the Prime Minister professing to have an open mind on the issue weeks after he had caved in to Rodney Hide\u2019s threat to resign. Then there was the panicked eleventh-hour change to the northern boundary. Between them Huey, Dewey, and Louie have made a mess of this whole thing. We have a Prime Minister who will say anything to anybody because he wants to be liked, a Minister of Local Government with his own extremist agenda whom no one trusts or likes, and an Associate Minister of Local Government whom everyone likes but who got it wrong on the boundary matter when it mattered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill is flawed and undemocratic. These are the reasons why: it centralises too much power in the hands of a privileged few; there will be too few councillors for a city of 1.4 million people; the councillors will be elected from multi-member wards that will be too big for many to be able to campaign across them, which will disadvantage communities with lower voting turn-out and leave many communities unrepresented; councillors will be elected under first past the post, which is an unfair voting system that we discarded from this House 13 years ago and which will likely elect the new mayor of the Auckland super-city with 20 percent of the vote; the mayor will wield executive powers unprecedented in New Zealand local government that will unbalance the relationship between the mayor and councillors; and local boards may be too small, if there are 30 of them, to wield real influence or be a force for change and development; and the creation of the local boards will divide up established communities of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe litmus test of the success of these reforms will be increased public engagement with local government. If people feel they have less say in the affairs of their community, if they feel their community has been shut out of the city\u2019s decision making, and if they feel that power is being grabbed by a select few, they will not take part in the political process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis Government has played fast and loose with the trust of Aucklanders with its shonky process, and with an undemocratic and unbalanced model. In spite of the efforts of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee members, including Government members, to seriously grapple with the powers of local boards, the result is highly constrained. Members on that side of that House protest too much when they claim that local boards have been fully empowered. These boards will have no legal status, no staff, no role in service delivery, and no regulatory function at all, not even in regards to the powers over dogs, brothels, graffiti, and liquor that Rodney Hide promised back in April. Although principles have been laid down requiring the delegation of powers, these requirements themselves are highly constrained. Transport and planning are out. Anything that impacts a greater area than the board\u2019s territory or that might be better handled regionally is out. Not much is left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EPerhaps, as the officials argued, that is how it must be if there is to be a unitary authority. But on this side of the House we have our doubts. The royal commission argued that to be successful the centralisation of regional powers in the Auckland Council must be counterbalanced by a strong local second tier. If the local boards are not seen to be genuinely and effectively serving local communities, the super-city will fall far short of aspirations. This is one of the main reasons that Labour is proposing a review of the new structures in 5 years\u2019 time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe issue of M\u0101ori representation was a huge lost opportunity. This Government could have taken Auckland forward into the 21st century in a spirit of inclusion, with M\u0101ori at the top table being part of decisions about the future of our country\u2019s biggest city. The public support was there, the royal commission made the arguments, and the moment was ripe. But what did the Government do? It caved to the threat of a man whose party has 1 percent support in the polls. What a travesty! There was a botched decision by this Government on the issue of boundaries, and mediocre decision-making was rescued at the last minute by pulling northern Rodney into the city, but still leaving Franklin partitioned and giving away our dams, Hunua, and several regional parks. I do not think Aucklanders will appreciate that in years to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EDuring this debate we have laid on the Table a number of amendments that were not supported by National and ACT members. They were amendments that would have seen commitments of fairness and certainty to 6,500 local government staff during this transition period. One of the amendments would have set up a performance auditor to guarantee accountability, transparency, and standards of customer service for the new water monopoly and other council-controlled organisations. The amendments included the establishment of advisory councils that would have guaranteed an inclusive approach to engaging with ethnic minority communities and youth in Auckland. Finally, the amendments included the issue of the protection of assets that Aucklanders overwhelmingly believe should be kept in public hands for generations to come. They do not trust the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and this Government to safeguard those assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAucklanders deserve better governance than they have had in recent generations. They also deserve a better reform process than they have been subjected to over the last 5 months. They will judge the success of Rodney Hide\u2019s super-city on the following factors. Firstly, they will ask whether it gets things done. Will they see action on public transport and infrastructure? Well, we will see. Secondly, they will ask how much it will cost. We do not hear the Minister of Local Government talking much about cutting rates these days. But he must know that this rushed and hugely complicated organisational merger has a high risk of cost blowouts. People know what happened in Toronto when a similar thing was attempted. Unbelievably, 5 months after the royal commission reported, the Government has yet to give Aucklanders any substantial data about what this exercise will cost. No reliable information has been provided in the public domain on the transition costs, or on what will happen to people\u2019s water bills when volume pricing is rolled out across the city. All we have heard from the Minister is that Aucklanders will pick up the tab. How is that for fiscal accountability for ratepayers from the Minister? Thirdly, Aucklanders will ask whether they will have a say. Will their voice be heard in the new super-city? Will their communities be able to maintain their identities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWith Labour, the Greens, and the M\u0101ori Party voting against this bill, it is plain for everyone to see that National and ACT are imposing this odious bill on Auckland. National and ACT have abused the democratic process. They have offered up a flawed and undemocratic super-city model, with a lost opportunity to include M\u0101ori in the governance of 21st century Auckland, and a botched decision on the southern boundary. When the Associate Minister said that this super-city was not perfect, he was surely a master of understatement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI close by challenging the Government. If it is so confident of this super-city model, if it is so sure that this is what the people of Auckland want, and if it is so sure that it has listened to the people of Auckland and accommodated all their aspirations and all their objections, then it should put the question to the people. I challenge the Government to give back to Aucklanders the right to a referendum that the members on that side of the House confiscated several months ago with the first super-city bill. It should put the super-city model to a referendum and let the people decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00222d05b9bfe3ca4266befed37b4c5ed32d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d05b9bfe3ca4266befed37b4c5ed32d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I guess those last few paragraphs from Phil Twyford exemplified why the last Labour Government just could not get on with the job. It could not make decisions; it was always wondering and testing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI thank the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and congratulate him for the good job that he has done on this issue. He has given outstanding leadership and can be very proud of the fact that the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill has moved a lot because of the work that he has done and the leadership that he has shown. I acknowledge the work that he is doing in local government generally, and also in regulatory reform. I thank the Prime Minister and Cabinet for the work that they did and the leadership that they have given on many of the issues. Some were challenging and some were a bit difficult but, nevertheless, decisions were made and we have moved through it. I particularly thank the members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and my colleagues on this side of the House very much for the contribution that they have made; I also thank all the members of the select committee. Of all the select committees I have worked on in my time at Parliament, this one was probably the most satisfying and the most productive I have been involved with. I also acknowledge all the staff that were involved from the Office of the Clerk, the Department of Internal Affairs, and the Parliamentary Counsel Office. They were outstanding in their contributions, and we cannot acknowledge them enough. Finally I thank the Aucklanders who took so much time and interest, and delivered their contributions with great passion and great heart. They are to be commended for their input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThis bill is one of the few bills that we can claim\u2014even though parts of it are obviously not supported by different parties in this House\u2014is a Parliament bill. It is a bill of this Parliament. The members of this House support and agree with much of this bill. I think we can say it is one of the few bills that has gone through and has changed, and is better for it, because there has been input from Parliament into it. That is important for us to remember. We must remember that this bill is not just the Prime Minister\u2019s bill, nor is it Rodney Hide\u2019s bill, as some people have claimed. It is not the right-wing agenda\u2019s bill; it is Parliament\u2019s bill and it is Auckland\u2019s bill. It is the better for the debate and for the contribution by all members who have been involved in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIf there is one thing that I am still disappointed in, it is that I am uncertain of exactly what Labour\u2019s vision is. We have had the second reading, 16 hours of debate in the Committee stage, and the third reading, yet I am still unclear of the vision that Labour has in respect of where it wants to take Auckland, other than it thinks there should be a referendum, which does not give a lot of vision and leadership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me clearly set out what the Government\u2019s vision for Auckland is. It is to have an authority that ensures that the regional issues that Aucklanders have constantly wanted to be addressed\u2014for at least 50 years, if not the last 100 years\u2014will be addressed on a regional basis. Such regional issues include planning, spatial plans, roads, and water. For those sorts of things we will set up a structure that allows them to be addressed. To me, that is absolutely vital. Without achieving that, we achieve nothing. We will achieve that, because the select committee and Parliament have set it in motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAlongside that, and probably at least as important, if not more important, was the issue of the local boards. There has been much discussion about what that means and what we endeavour to do. The whole purpose of where the select committee report got to, and what Parliament addressed, is to ensure that we empower the local boards. We have certainly ensured that the Auckland Transition Agency will set out the functions of the local boards once they have the report from the Local Government Commission. The Auckland Transition Agency will then ensure that the funding is provided. That sets the foundations for those boards that the unitary authority cannot interfere in. It gives the power to the local boards. It gives the funding to the local boards. It allows the local voice. It allows local democracy. It allows that local heartbeat. This bill is about ensuring that the voice of Aucklanders gets recognised, gets heard, and, most important, gets implemented. That is what this bill will do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAs I have said before, as we move forward this is work in progress. It is not just one step or two steps; ongoing work will need to be done. We will address things in the third bill that bring this work together. We will, for example, address the establishment of the new Auckland Council and the disestablishment of the existing local authorities. That will provide an orderly transfer of assets and liabilities, and associated matters. We will provide an optimal environment for the new Auckland Council to work in. We will provide, in the third bill, for an appropriate legislative framework for the Auckland Council. We will also address things that actually matter. A lot of local legislation currently affects Auckland\u2014for example, the Waitakere Ranges Heritage Area Act, and the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Act, which was discussed by the Opposition. How we transfer through the local legislation that affects Auckland will be considered in the third bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIn the third bill we will consider the disestablishment of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority and setting up the provisions for the new transport entity. We will provide temporary legislation under which the new Auckland Council will operate, including how things such as the district plans translate and move forward. The long-term council community plans will all be part of the third bill. We will create a dispute resolution mechanism, so that any disagreement between the unitary authority and the local boards will be addressed. We will address the matter of the transfer of assets under the Local Government Act 2002, which was put in place by the previous Government, to ensure that those assets continue with the protection that is afforded to them by that legislation. We will also make sure that if the funding and the powers of the local boards issues need to be addressed or further tweaked, they will be considered in the third bill. The third bill is the nuts and bolts of the work we have done. It is important legislation to bring all this work together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI am satisfied as the chairman of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and as the Associate Minister of Local Government that the legislation we are putting in place today, and the ongoing legislation that will follow, will ensure that a structure is put in place for Aucklanders that will allow them to realise their ambitions and the things that they aspire to, and, at the same time, take away those costs that Auckland currently imposes on New Zealanders. Not just Auckland but all of New Zealand will benefit as a consequence of this legislation. It is a proud day for this Parliament and for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a4036d4e35e8491882856e8ad226a0f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252627067c6614b0eb6d963eee550539d\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d7e26544e1f4d72830d9004f014a0bd\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000369\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 10 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022601810b935774d33a1c92fb85eb24b08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022601810b935774d33a1c92fb85eb24b08\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I will be very brief on this. One would have to be completely crazy to take up the student loan repayment bonus. Therefore I think it is important that before people take up the repayment bonus, they receive adequate advice, so that they can ensure that they are making a prudent decision. There are very, very few circumstances in which it would be in somebody\u2019s best interests to take it up. My colleague Trevor Mallard has put forward an amendment to that effect, which would ensure that somebody receives appropriate advice and guidance before taking up the repayment bonus. I commend his amendment to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002242b9eab0bb024bbb933c90f3038d62dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242b9eab0bb024bbb933c90f3038d62dc\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E It is indeed a pleasure to speak to the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill during its second reading. I would like briefly to cover off the intention of the bill, the reasons why someone would take advantage of its provisions, and some of the work that was given significant consideration by the Education and Science Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will start off by saying that this bill is consistent with the National Party\u2019s goals of creating incentives for people to get ahead. It is consistent with the National Party\u2019s vision of aspiration and making the most of one\u2019s opportunity. It is a worthy bill. It is designed to do two things: first, to encourage students to pay back their student loans quicker; and, second, to reduce the cost of, or add value to, the student loan scheme. From that point of view I would like to go through some of the points that I think are good reasons why people will take up the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe select committee learnt that there are a significant number of people who are risk-averse or debt-averse, and that these are the people who will take up the opportunity. We learnt that some 40,000 people have paid off, in effect, more than the compulsory part of their payments. The projections from the officials are that this bill would increase that number by another 14,000-odd, to a level of 54,800 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EStudent borrowers who have completed their degree and are thinking of going overseas would be very wise to take up this opportunity while they still have that interest-free component. The facts and the figures also show that this bill is designed so that borrowers who are overseas can take advantage of the bill\u2019s provisions. Fifteen percent of all borrowers in the student loan scheme are overseas, and that is 77,000 people. Of that number a significant proportion have overdue payments, and they are a group that the Inland Revenue Department has great difficulty managing. It is expected that 4,800 borrowers overseas will take advantage of this opportunity. There are also carers or parents who would like to give their children a first-class education with a debt-free start; those people will certainly take up the opportunity. A basic analysis of the figures shows that borrowers in the last 3 years of their student loan repayment schedule will be advantaged by doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI would like to take up the point mentioned by Mr Hipkins at the conclusion of his speech that there needs to be a safety or health warning for borrowers who enter into this situation. I suggest, from my experience, that the advice should be given long before students takes on a student loan to ensure they are undertaking education that they will see value in. There certainly is value in education, but if, in effect, students do not take up those opportunities, I say that it would be far better for them, long before they start their studies, to give consideration to taking on that debt or repaying it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIn the debate on this bill, Opposition members are effectively backing those who are privileged against the hard-working Kiwis. Members on the other side of the House want to take a serious look at themselves. They no longer represent the working class of New Zealand; they are a combination of university lecturers, unionists, and other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThis bill has a lot to recommend it. I am very confident that it will add value to a lot of people\u2019s decision making, and on that basis I take great pleasure in supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002268627b4927184327b581ed2ad473a9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268627b4927184327b581ed2ad473a9ce\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Periodically the Vice-Chancellors Committee releases a report on the destination of graduates from universities, and that tends to chart the salary band that new graduates go into. Typically it is not very high. Frequently we are told that a degree will enhance people\u2019s earning power and therefore they will be able to earn more in their lifetime\u2014and I hope that is true. I am concerned, however, that many people who, on emerging from a university or a polytechnic with a degree, and encumbered by student debt, are not in a position for many years to take advantage of this legislation. We have legislation that is designed for the wealthy\u2014for those who have additional money left over after they have already paid off what they need to pay off on their student loan and have then paid out for living expenses. If one has a spare $500 sloshing around after that, then this bill may be of some assistance to those people. However, for the vast majority of people this is not going to provide any relief at all. I am pleased to say, however, that there is one redeeming feature to this legislation: my colleague Trevor Mallard\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. I congratulate the Government on accepting the Supplementary Order Paper, even though it was not accepted in the select committee. It was accepted by the Government in the end, because it is the only thing that makes this bill tolerable and it is the only reason why Labour will move to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper relates to the \u201Chealth warning\u201D\u2014the piece that says \u201Cfor goodness\u2019 sake get some financial advice\u201D. It inserts new section 45G with its heading: \u201CCommissioner must advise borrowers to seek financial advice\u201D. In other words, the commissioner is required in all material to provide information about repayment bonuses and make sure that people get financial advice. The only people that this bill really suits are rich, stupid people. They are people with extra money but too stupid to realise that their money would work better for them if they put it into an interest-bearing account than if they reduce a loan that does not have any interest on it. It is particularly ridiculous legislation in that the only time it is likely to make an impact on anybody\u2019s student loan debt is towards the very end of the life of that debt. We will not stand in the way of it, however, because the Government has seen fit and seen the sense of accepting my colleague\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper that inserts this \u201Chealth warning\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de64d49d922042268d721f16292aa157\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022b04114082fe2484388f3502778aaae7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b04114082fe2484388f3502778aaae7d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the provisions of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225240a8bb0d0a420a85df8683feedca74\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is anyone opposed to that course of action? It appears not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022755861299f1f418b96f236d2ce323c15\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022881a1cc0e44b46818a2098da25e2ac56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022881a1cc0e44b46818a2098da25e2ac56\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to some of the provisions in the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill, but I would also like to inform the Committee about some of the advice that was received by the Education and Science Committee in consideration of this bill. The advice pointed out that borrowers with higher student loan balances in relation to their incomes and longer repayment horizons are less likely to benefit from this bonus offer. The advice given to members of the select committee was that these borrowers would clearly have less disposable income to make voluntary repayments over and above the required amount, and that they would be less likely to be able to fully repay their loan in one payment. They face long repayment times typically and there is no incentive to repay earlier, as the loan balance is not adjusted for inflation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EOne of the examples that were provided in this advice was the case of a fictitious woman with the name of Fiona. The advice stated that this fictitious person\u2014fictitious, but typical\u2014was a recent graduate with a large student loan of $50,000 and a modest income of $32,000. A modest income is often where graduates start. A relative had come into some money, or had won Lotto, and that person decided to give Fiona the opportunity to pay off her entire loan, so that she no longer had to make compulsory repayments and could be free of her student loan debt earlier than would normally be the case. At Fiona\u2019s income of $32,000 she could expect to repay her debt in 18.6 years, assuming that her income grows on a basis of 5 percent per annum and assuming that the income threshold is 2.5 percent. In this time Fiona would have repaid $50,000. If a family member who had won Lotto decided to pay off Fiona\u2019s student loan, it would be a silly thing to do. In fact, that relative would do better to give Fiona the money, which she could put in an account that was generating interest and develop a nice nest egg for her first home. Perhaps Fiona could take out a mortgage, put down a deposit on a first house, and be a lot better off. If she invested that money elsewhere\u2014let us say at a lower rate of 5 percent, for example\u2014instead of repaying her loan, she would be $15,000 better off in today\u2019s dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe financial logic is missing from this legislation. When one looks at particular examples, it is perfectly clear that there is no logic to it. It is nonsensical. But if people are able to take it up, the Labour Party will not stand in their way. The only thing that rescues this legislation is Trevor Mallard\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, which I am pleased that the Government has accepted. It requires that a statement advising that financial advice be sought\u2014a health warning, effectively\u2014be attached to all material that goes out with any promotion around this legislation. The legislation patently does not make financial sense, and if people are wealthy enough to take it up, then one assumes that they are wealthy enough to get the kind of advice that would tell them so. In the event, the Supplementary Order Paper will provide some protection. It will provide protection so that people do not find themselves in the position of having misused their money if they are in the lucky situation of being able to afford additional repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI do not have a lot of enthusiasm for this bill. The only thing that makes it passable is the Supplementary Order Paper. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0d326ccfec24de18859f69a54ade460\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0d326ccfec24de18859f69a54ade460\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to stand and take a very brief call in the Committee stage of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. As chairman of the Education and Science Committee that held hearings on the bill, I compliment the Opposition on agreeing to support the bill. Opposition members, as did Government members, worked very hard to develop a scheme that was workable, and, although we had a lot of debate around the Supplementary Order Paper that Mr Mallard put forward, I congratulate him on his success in having that Supplementary Order Paper accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe important thing is this. We are talking about taxpayers\u2019 money and we are talking about people who borrow money for student loans. The message the Government wishes to send to borrowers is that it is in their best interests to pay off their loan as early as they possibly can, and there will be a financial incentive, a so-called 10 percent bonus, if they do that. We must always remember that we are talking about taxpayers\u2019 money. We are talking about other New Zealanders who pay tax so that students can borrow money to finance their education. I do not know of too many New Zealanders who object to that, but I do know that a lot of New Zealanders worry about the levels of debt that are accrued and about the way that some of that money is being used. This bill sends a very, very strong message. It is the Government\u2019s wish, supported by the Opposition, that if one is a borrower, one\u2019s student loan is to be paid off as quickly as one possibly can. It is in the borrower\u2019s interest and it is in the taxpayers\u2019 interest. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002208bc892638a147a8ad9bb6e3a1d09e0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208bc892638a147a8ad9bb6e3a1d09e0a\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I stand up to speak in support of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill in its Committee stage. I spoke against the bill it in its first and second readings, but, with the sensible acceptance of the Hon Trevor Mallard\u2019s amendments, I do not oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI am actually pretty ambivalent about the bill, to tell the truth. It is a bit of a nothing bill that will help very little and achieve not much at all. Let us be honest about this: as outlined in the executive summary in the regulatory impact statement of the bill, this bill is just another one of National\u2019s election promises that is targeted primarily at those who are in the upper income bracket\u2014like the National tax cuts, the super-city legislation, and the 90-day \u201CFire at Will Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThis bill does nothing for students who have elected to take courses that result in a salary that leaves very little discretionary income once the bills are paid at the end of each week. This, of course, does not mean that these professions are any less valuable to society than those professions paying significantly higher; in fact, the case may be quite the opposite. I tell members that if I was dying, I would rather have a nurse than a financier look after me, and if I was after quality education for my children, I would much prefer to have a teacher than a financier. Yet the health and education sectors under this Government, after only 9 long, tortuous months, have taken a huge hit under Ministers Ryall and Tolley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs I was saying, as I made my way through the regulatory impact statement I was hit more by what is not here than by what is. Never once does the statement outline, predict, or forecast how many students this bill will help\u2014never once. I wonder why that is. I suspect it is because when the numbers were done\u2014and they do exist, because there is a very light financial analysis; in fact, it is surprisingly light for a taxation bill\u2014some key assumptions must have been made around the actual student numbers. However, the Minister in charge of this bill, the Hon Peter Dunne, was too embarrassed to include them in the regulatory impact statement because he realised that very few students will take advantage of this scheme. That is why I say that this bill is a little bit of a nothing bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339adb364dca491cb7c7ba326c465d67\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227960858ed4be48ad8e901dc63df44c39\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also states: \u201CInland Revenue and the Ministry of Education officials will continue to monitor repayment trends over the next few years to assess the impact of the voluntary repayment bonus policy. The student loan integrated data set will enable officials to get an understanding of the debt, income, and demographic characteristics of those making additional student loan repayments. It will take several years, however, for a sufficient time-series to emerge to enable good outcome data to be collected.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI can tell officials that the data will say one of two things. It will say either that those earning large salaries from high socio-economic backgrounds, with professional degrees in careers like accountancy, law, engineering, commerce, finance, medicine, dentistry, etc., will pay off their loans noticeably quicker than those in less well-paying professions, or that the numbers in those areas will continue to stagnate or drop as those students understand that there is actually no huge financial advantage of early repayment. It is not the Inland Revenue Department and education officials who should be monitoring progress in this scheme; it is the sociologists and the Treasury officials who should look at the data that comes out of this early repayment option, in an effort to understand the level of financial literacy amongst our graduates, and/or understand the reason why graduates would pay back an interest-free loan early when there would be very little financial benefit to them at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThese data are the ones that the Minister should be interested in, and I hope he uses them wisely for future development of any student loan repayment scheme. In fact, he probably will not get the chance, because in 2 years and 3 months there will be a Labour Minister of Revenue and a Labour Minister of Education, and they will have the ability to view these data and put them to good use. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022929368d2dc124fa0a729421957c75f6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929368d2dc124fa0a729421957c75f6d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Let me begin\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223237363b0c8a4a88af37139e04284682\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019ll still be Revenue Minister!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022566be82dc5414d90b3d15a5de5ce9953\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we shall see\u2014by indicating to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a3a9a57f2e4d2ba21870bd44fbf7cd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Not if Charles wins his seat!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b8111aa68b4d72beda49a36bc8ae28\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014pigs might fly\u2014the Hon Trevor Mallard that the Government is accepting the amendment he has moved, and I appreciate the interchange there has been in terms of developing the appropriate wording. As I may have indicated by a shrug of my shoulders during the second reading, I do not see the insertion of new section 45G into the Student Loan Scheme Act, as proposed by Supplementary Order Paper 37, as in any way contrary to the intent of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. I make one other comment, though, that picks up on what the previous speaker was trying to raise regarding who possibly might take advantage of this. I thought the Committee might be interested to know the figures to date. Since this bill has been around, the prospect of it has attracted a great deal of interest from some 1,800 borrowers who have repaid either all or ten-elevenths of their loan balance. They have been getting an average bonus of around $875. Already, before the bill is passed, because it has a slight retrospective element, there have been 1,800 student loan borrowers who have chosen to take advantage of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054a8b4f2cd44e22a24cf589354240e3\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s financial sense in that, isn\u2019t there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804e3b0572db4ef78b84c8a943ba5868\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: There is huge merit and sense in that, and it really goes to the heart of what this measure is about: incentivising people to make earlier repayments if they are in a position to do so. It is very difficult to argue against that proposition. The fact that nearly 2,000 students have, before the bill has passed through the House, chosen to take advantage of that opportunity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9ee75ae15841e1a418127e0a919b89\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is that more or less than the normal early repayments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225877d3144b9d465aa6daaac62ec4a669\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a considerable figure, and I think that the Committee should be delighted that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f650b453e1745879292d78037fd6964\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is it more or less than normal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225499833a18d74abea2f5fc2864681786\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks whether it is more or less than normal. Well, there has not been huge provision for early repayment to this day, and that is one of the other measures being addressed. This bill incentivises people to make those early repayments, and 1,800 of them will benefit from its retrospective element. I simply wanted to put that information before the Committee because some members have been asking who will take advantage of it, and what the point of it is. Already significant numbers are taking advantage of it. I think that puts it into perspective. I acknowledge that this measure will pass with the support of all sides of the Chamber, and I thank members for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdab3e43c3f74603870fd330fd383c89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdab3e43c3f74603870fd330fd383c89\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak very briefly to say thank you to the Government, and especially the Minister of Revenue for his forbearance in the negotiations of the Supplementary Order Paper, for the third time. I thank the officials for putting us back on track to get a defined term rather than an undefined term. For members who have not seen it, there is a new Supplementary Order Paper on the Table. It is the same as the old Supplementary Order Paper, as it was for quite a period of time, but there was an interim period where something else was there. I do not want to say a lot about this bill. I think Maryan Street put it pretty well. It is the bill for people who do not have a lot of financial literacy, especially if they are repaying more than 2 years before the time is due\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df1057f4581e4dd2950686ecebca178a\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Not the Minister of Finance, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247997afe93584b6b84fd8165848d35bc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think the Minister of Finance has a lot of financial literacy but not much political sense. That might be the case. In his case, it could be argued that he has his hand in taxpayers\u2019 pockets, and in this case in a lot of student loan borrowers\u2019 pockets. People would be relatively foolish to pick this up more than 2 years out. There would have to be a very good reason for it, and that reason is not a financial one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00221200e0895ddd4e5cb026719fba1c4cbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221200e0895ddd4e5cb026719fba1c4cbc\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E With regard to the Student Loan (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill, as it came to the select committee there were areas that needed to be given consideration to improve it. As the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, mentioned, a number of people have taken up the opportunity of the repayment bonus. One thing the select committee had to do was set the date of the implementation of this bill to 1 April 2010. Effectively, that gives a 12-month period for those who wish to take advantage of the bonus repayment scheme to build up a history of repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe other thing we had to look at was around the non-salary, non-wage earners\u2019 situation. As the bill came to the select committee, it would have given more than 12 months after the tax year for a person to decide on what amount he or she would pay. In the end the select committee settled on 7 May, after the end of the tax year, so there is not an unfair advantage to those persons. But it gives them sufficient time to decide what they can or cannot do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe other issue that bears mentioning is the basic figure of $500 for a 10 percent repayment bonus. The question arose of what happens if there is less than $550. That was something the select committee had to wrestle with, and we came to recommend that the derivatives of under $550 would be the maximum amount of bonus repayment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe other point I wanted to mention is the multiple voluntary repayments in the tax year. As the bill came to the select committee, it would have been just a last payment. We looked at that and set it as being payments over and above the normal repayment scheme that were eligible for that tax year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI believe the bill is in good shape. The select committee worked very, very well on it. I think it is appropriate in the Committee stage of a bonus repayment bill to mention the Education (Freedom of Association) Amendment Bill that was drawn out of the ballot. That is one we all look forward to debating because we believe that that, too, underpins and supports the principles of choice. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022308da77d835d4ffc920e5304be6430f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022308da77d835d4ffc920e5304be6430f5\u0022\u003EJACINDA ARDERN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise and speak to the Student Loan (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill and to support the statements that have been made by my colleagues up until now. Before we go too far into this debate, it is important we size the issue we are talking about. I have done a little bit of reading on the current state of our student loan scheme, the uptake rate, the size of the debt, and the number of young people who are impacted by this scheme as it stands, because I think it is important that we understand how many are captured by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003ETwenty-three percent of New Zealand\u2019s population over the age of 15 have used our student loan scheme. That is massive. Every time either this Government or past Governments have changed the scheme, it has impacted on quite a significant part of the population. That is an important factor to keep in mind. As of June 2008, 530,000 young people in New Zealand had a student loan. That is quite a significant number of young people who would have greatly welcomed Labour\u2019s significant policy change at the election before last when we removed interest on student loans altogether. That was the most significant change I have seen in my lifetime in terms of improving our student loan structure as it currently stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut what does the bill do? Before I go down that track I will talk a little bit more about what the bill is trying to achieve. In order to establish that, one needs only to look at the commentary on the bill. It states that the bill\u2019s \u201Caim is to encourage borrowers to repay more than the compulsory minimum amount so that they pay off their student loans sooner.\u201D That is a very admirable goal. Why would we be trying to achieve such an admirable goal? Well, one does not have to look past, for instance, the study on doctors in debt, which found that two-thirds of doctors intended to travel overseas after they graduated in order to pay off their debts sooner. Students are willing to go to great lengths to pay off the significant debt that hangs over them. Student debt has almost doubled. The average debt in New Zealand for a student has almost doubled since between 1992 and 2007, if my memory is correct. We need look no further also than the 10-year student income survey, which found that 89 percent of students with a loan said that their loan impacted on their future savings. The collaborative study by the New Zealand University Students Association and the New Zealand Medical Association found, again, that 83 percent of students found it difficult to save as a consequence of their student loan. Those reasons in themselves are good enough reasons to try to deal with the issue, but anecdotal evidence suggests that student debt also impacts on housing and child rearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThere are very good reasons to try to assist our students and young people to pay off their loans sooner. Will the bill do it, though? I have a lot of questions about that. Firstly, what helps students pay off their loans sooner? First and foremost, it is having the cash to pay off the loans. It is the jobs they are able to get after they leave university and the capacity they have to earn. Women students are significantly impacted by this. We know that, given our pay equity issues in New Zealand, women will be worse off than their male counterparts. That will impact on the rate at which female students pay off their loans. That is the first place we need to look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe second place is the incentive issue. Students will pay off loans sooner if there is an incentive for them to do so and if they have the capacity to pay in the first place. That means that the bill will positively affect those who are already able to pay off their loans quicker. They have the spare cash available. That is what incentivises those particular students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBut beyond that we also need to look at whether any financially literate student will benefit from the scheme. I think that is why Trevor Mallard\u2019s amendment is so critical. It is imperative that we be honest with students. If we are, and the aim is that they pay off their student loans sooner, then surely we should be providing them with advice that they might actually be better off keeping the money in the bank, earning interest on it, and then paying off something later down the track. It is important that we are honest about what we are doing in the bill. I think Trevor Mallard\u2019s amendment does that, but without it I think there is a long way to go on the kinds of incentives and arrangements that we try to put in place to tackle what is a significant issue in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 4 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003Eto insert the following section:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E45FA Commissioner must advise borrowers to seek financial advice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EThe Commissioner must, in all material that provides information about repayment bonuses and that is made available to all borrowers, include a statement to the effect that borrowers are advised to seek appropriate financial advice before making excess repayments in order to obtain a 10% bonus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273e05526cb79489ca10e0661be9bb88b\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf3e3f7f05214289aa0d49d8a7788f12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf3e3f7f05214289aa0d49d8a7788f12\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. Before commenting very briefly on the bill\u2019s provisions, I take this opportunity to acknowledge the members of the Education and Science Committee, and the chairman, Allan Peachey, for the job they did in considering the bill. I also acknowledge the work the officials have done in the preparation and development of the bill, their advice to the select committee, and some of the subsequent developments that have taken place. It has been a very worthwhile process and I simply want to place on record my thanks to all those who have contributed to the outcome we are about to put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill is a comparatively straightforward measure that introduces a repayment bonus of 10 percent for students who seek to repay their student loan balances early, having a minimum balance of $500 at the time. This is consistent with an election commitment made by the National Party at the time of the general election. When the bill was in the Committee stage an amendment was moved by the Hon Trevor Mallard, effectively to provide for a health warning - type statement to be included in the advice the commissioner must give to prospective repayers if they are considering making early repayments. I acknowledge him for the work he did in the preparation of the amendment. The Government was pleased to accept the amendment, because it does, I think, contribute to the spirit of the legislation. I also think it is consistent with the general view that has been developed over a number of years about people obtaining good financial advice before making prudent, or otherwise, investment decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe real point here is that the bill seeks to incentivise students who are in a position to do so to pay off their student loans sooner. One of the Opposition speakers during the Committee correctly described that as a highly laudable objective. We have approximately $10 billion in outstanding student loan balances. It is in both the Crown\u2019s interests and the interests of individual borrowers that the loans be repaid as quickly as possible, and anything we can do to incentivise that situation has to be beneficial. Those were the main reasons behind the bill. It has emerged from the Committee with pretty much universal support across the House. As I indicated to the Committee, 1,800 student loan borrowers have already sought to take advantage of it. That is a good testament to the impact the legislation will have. I am more than happy to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00229c631e97002644dfaff8777f3450e326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c631e97002644dfaff8777f3450e326\u0022\u003EHon MARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. I too would like to add my thanks to the work that Allan Peachey has done as chair of the Education and Science Committee in the consideration of the bill. I will also underscore the Minister of Revenue\u2019s thanks to officials for their work in revisiting a number of issues that arose in the course of the debate in the Committee stage and during the select committee\u2019s consideration of the bill. I am grateful to officials for their work and their support in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI also congratulate the Minister on accepting the Supplementary Order Paper that was put forward by my colleague Trevor Mallard. That is the bit that redeems the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAlthough I understand the intention is to incentivise repayment of student loans earlier than might otherwise be the case, this legislation does need close consideration by any students who are looking at taking up the offer and maximise the benefit of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EMaximising the benefit of this legislation\u2014that is, getting the 10 percent return on any amount over $500 that is repaid on a student loan, over and above the statutory repayment amount required\u2014may fly in the face of how students might be able to maximise the return on that additional money. The problem is that it will only be towards the end of the lifetime of a student loan that there may be any financial advantage. Of course, retiring debt is highly desirable, but if students are faced with the choice of placing money into an interest-bearing account and having it work for them in a way that, over time, gains them more than having a slight reduction in the total of their student loan repayable, then they would be fools to take up this provision in the legislation. That is the long and the short of it. In the end, the Labour amendment in Supplementary Order Paper 37, which has been accepted by the Government and improves the legislation, allows us, albeit in a lukewarm way, to support the legislation. The amendment requires that all advertisements that go out accompanying this bill must also include a statement that people are advised to get appropriate advice so they know what they are doing with their money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI cannot see why this legislation was ever brought to the House under urgency, and I dispute, even at this stage, the need for that to happen. But I support the legislation now, given its improvement with the addition of the health warning that has to go out to all students who take on student debt. They will be able to work out exactly at which point in their loan repayment there may be a financial benefit to them. It certainly will not be apparent in the first few years when they are likely not to be earning very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b618becfb4ce4861ae84d7447b45c196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b618becfb4ce4861ae84d7447b45c196\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand to speak to the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. I start by saying a word of thanks to the able chair of the Education and Science Committee, my colleague Allan Peachey; the deputy chair, Trevor Mallard; the other committee members; the officials who have worked particularly hard on getting this bill through; and the Minister of Revenue, whom I applaud for accepting the Supplementary Order Paper put forward by Trevor Mallard today to make sure that we have broad support for this bill. I think that does make a big difference. It is a strong message to New Zealanders when the Government is supported by the Labour benches in legislation. This bill provides an incentive for young New Zealanders who have a student loan to pay off their loan faster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI just make a couple of comments to put some context around why the Government believes that it is important for young New Zealanders to pay their debts off faster. I refer to an article in the New Zealand Herald earlier this year that talked about the surge in individual debt, which has gone from $62.7 billion to $175 billion. So basically New Zealanders are borrowing at a significant rate, and we have now individual borrowings of $41,000 per head of population. Student loans are obviously a small component of that figure, but today I saw that the student union\u2019s website had put that figure on its ongoing loan calculator at $10.599 million. It is small amount of the overall New Zealand debt, but it is the message for young New Zealanders that paying off debt should be a priority and is important; and, in this case, obviously it is a debt to the Government so it is a debt to other hard-working New Zealanders who pay tax and therefore it is important that the Government incentivises students to pay off their loans sooner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI was really pleased also that the Opposition has questioned why this bill was brought in under urgency. The Minister Peter Dunne indicated the level of interest already out there for this incentive\u2014the fact that 1,800 young New Zealanders have already opted to make bonus payments, if you like, and to the value of, I think, about $875 in bonuses. That is brilliant and is exactly what this bill is designed to do. I am sure there will be an even greater level of interest, now that they see this legislation will pass and that it is supported so broadly across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI am really pleased to be able to commend this bill in its third reading, because shorter repayment times for New Zealanders will mean that they become debt-free earlier. That will give them choices in their lives and their futures about buying a house, having children, going into business, and any other options, given they have removed some of the debt they had been saddled with as students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba97782c83bd460b9e15bcdefaa30d07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba97782c83bd460b9e15bcdefaa30d07\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I, again, just want to speak briefly to the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. I thank Government members for eventually accepting the health warning about it. That had been put to them and rejected at the Education and Science Committee, but they had some sense about this when the Minister became involved and we were in the House. So I do thank them for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI disagree deeply with the member for Taup\u014D and the comments that she made as to whether the Labour Party is giving its wholehearted support to this bill. It is a matter of very fine balance and a matter of us keeping our word. We said we would support the bill if the health warning went in, but, frankly, I hope that not many students will take up this measure, especially if they do so in a period that is greater than from 18 months to 36 months before the end of repaying the loan. If they do that, they will end up, if one considers the interest effects, paying back more than they need to pay. They would be better off if they put their money in the bank and continue to make loan repayments until somewhere in the period of from 18 months to 36 months out from the end of loan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI accept there will be a number of other reasons that people want to make repayments, and I think the most logical ones are where they receive tied contributions from other people. When a grandparent wants to help a student or graduate with repayments on his or her loan and is concerned that if he or she just gives the kid the money it might not quite make it into repaying the loan, in that circumstance, where there is an element of a tie-in, I think there is a benefit. I cannot think of many other circumstances where that will occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIf one wants to look really carefully at who will benefit from this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226333c3e37ece48f1968a231ae08e83cc\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Who is it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b652b949f8224275ac69a5e02b77383e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is the Minister of Finance. He is the person who will benefit from this legislation. When we look at the net situation, we see that this measure is quite fiscally positive for the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c389ba76234fae802b9eb3f405dce5\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty bucks a week? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac06e09df2b74ad0b9dc0abba06f5a22\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Not many people will get $1,000 a year every year out of it. The amount of repayments required to get to that level would have to be at the level of $10,000 a year. I think not many people will make additional repayments at that level, but it is fair to say it would be better to be a person in that position than to be someone who is trying to get the last 20 bucks off Bill English for his cleaning bill, paid through the taxpayer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis is pretty minor legislation. On balance, the Labour Party supports it, because we said we would support it if the Government accepted our amendment. We will vote for it, but without much enthusiasm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00220a798270d2014dbdaf8f2da49ca5422e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a798270d2014dbdaf8f2da49ca5422e\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of my colleague Metiria Turei. It is paradoxical that today we are voting on the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill, which, according to Mr Mallard, has a marginal positive benefit to the Government\u2019s position, given that the Government has just announced it is giving away $400 million to the worst polluters in the country. Since 1992 we have had a student loan scheme in New Zealand, whereby students are required to borrow a significant proportion of their tertiary education costs. This scheme was a major deviation from the previous social contract, which provided tertiary education at low cost to the public. The principle behind the earlier approach\u2014because there was a principle behind the earlier approach\u2014was sound. Education in general, and tertiary education in particular, is a significant public good. There are immeasurable benefits to the community and economy of a highly educated population. Therefore it is of great benefit to the public overall to have significant investment of public funds in public education. For example, we know that the higher the level of a mother\u2019s education, the more likely her children will be to succeed in education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e87c2d657c4edc9187799b1aa27d2e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to the member. I seek leave for the Standing Order that requires a Minister to be present in the House to be set aside\u2014although I see there is another Minister here\u2014so that Kate Wilkinson can accompany me to the presentation of the pay equity petition that is occurring now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11e948eb6674fc0acb75735be77dcb5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not really\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249a1455288e64510a43a1674a7f31178\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking leave for the Standing Order to be set aside so that Kate Wilkinson can do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767231a2cf8b44b0b361049054cb325b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: There is a Minister in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f49bb2391614459bd76f0940c97deab\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given that there are a number of Ministers in the House, I would have thought that the application would be ruled out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa33c73096c4aeebf282455a35a3ee4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave. If members feel it is inappropriate, they can refuse the leave. Is anyone opposed to that course of action? Leave is not granted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232126854402d4e07b7319156c5b8ca53\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN\u003C/span\u003E: We know, for example, that education is a key means to alleviate poverty, and particularly intergenerational poverty. We know that New Zealand since the 1980s has become a grossly unequal country and, as the level of inequality has grown, the level of educational inequality has also grown. However, with the introduction of the student loan scheme that social contract was torn to bits. Instead, the mantra of education as a private good was imposed, and a whole generation of young New Zealanders have borne the brunt of that failed social experiment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EWhy has it failed? Because of the social and economic consequences our communities have suffered as a result. First, the student loan scheme entrapped very young students who were in tertiary education, in breach of basic contract law. The loan contracts were not enforceable against them. That loophole was quickly fixed, but the consequences of loaning thousands of dollars to young people aged 16 and 17 years old is still being felt. These young people are offered no financial advice as to the consequences of borrowing for their fees. It is more than likely that the educational interests one pursues at 16 will be quite different from those one would pursue later in life, and this leads to many young students borrowing for tertiary education degrees that they never use. The system also created an incentive for unscrupulous operators to rort the system. Some courses offered gadgets as incentives to young people who, fooled by the hype, took out thousands of dollars in loans to do courses of extremely dubious quality, finding themselves at the end of the course thousands of dollars out of pocket and still out of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003ESome remedy was made to resolve this, but the core issue, the cost of the systemic failure to provide quality tertiary education to New Zealanders as a matter of their citizenship, remained. For as long as the user-pays approach is pursued, some will rort the system, and students will continue to pay, and they do so all through their lives. We know that young people leave the country to pursue higher-paying jobs overseas and often stay there for longer than they would otherwise in order to pay off their loans. We know that young people delay purchasing housing because they must use their first 5 to 10 years of income to repay their loans, rather than save for their first homes. We know that young couples delay having children because of the financial pressures placed on them by the student loan system, and we know that M\u0101ori, Pacific, and women students are disproportionately affected by the loan scheme, and have to pay for much longer periods than their P\u0101keh\u0101 male counterparts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of tinkering with the student loan system, and this bill is just another fiddle. This bill will benefit a minuscule number of students, and otherwise provide no relief to the core problem of the student loan scheme. It is unfair and unjust. The Green Party is committed to a sustainable, prosperous Aotearoa New Zealand that is ready to meet the challenges of this new century. That is what the Green New Deal is all about. We must invest in our communities in ways that will deal with the twin crises that face us\u2014climate change and the recession. Investing in the education of our young people now is critical to our future prosperity. The Government has chosen to take New Zealand backwards instead. Cutting the training incentive allowance so that beneficiaries can no longer access that support to do degree courses is simply increasing poverty, and pulling up the ladder after one has already climbed it. Slashing funding to universities and polytechnics is taking education out of the hands of those most vulnerable communities that need it the most. The Green Party opposes this bill. It will make no difference to the educational needs of those who need it the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022750966f9070944bf946f495697f9ff66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022750966f9070944bf946f495697f9ff66\u0022\u003EHon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E As a member of the Education and Science Committee I too would like to join others who have congratulated and thanked Allan Peachey for the way he chaired the committee. It has been funny, from my perspective, to hear the lukewarm response to this bill from Green Party and Labour Party members and to hear them arguing generally that it is helping the wealthy more than the poor. Their argument has been that wealthy ex-students will be able to make higher levels of voluntary payments, and that therefore in some way this bill is discriminatory. The flaw in their argument is that they are comparing wealthy ex-students with so-called poor ex-students. The overwhelming majority of students improve the incomes they can get in life by undertaking tertiary education. In other words, poor ex-students are relatively wealthy by most standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EThe people we should be more concerned about are not the poor students, but the hard-working, low-income people who pay the taxes that cover the interest and loan write-offs of university students and tertiary students. The people we should care about, and whom the Labour Party and the Greens are supposed to care about, are the ones who do not go to university. They are the people who get a job when they are young. They are the people who are forced to pay for the education of those who will one day earn far more than they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003ELet us take a look at who undertakes tertiary education. Eighty percent of students come from households that earn more than the average wage. They are the families with money. They are the families with capital. They are the wealthy. A study undertaken in 2001 has shown that those in the top income bracket are five or six times more likely to go to university than the ones in the bottom income bracket. We send these rich kids, if we want to call them that, to university with lavish student loans and large subsidies paid for by low-income families. They then graduate and go into relatively well-paying jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EThe Green members and Labour members wring their hands about the high level of student debt. Never mind that university students were wealthy when they went to university. Never mind that ex-students will pay off their loans quickly because of their higher incomes. Never mind that the people who pay for the lavish benefits are the hard-working poor who entered the labour force at 17 or 18 years of age, and missed out on a tertiary education. In fact, it is not just that this bill is in some ways unfair on people on low incomes. We would have to say that that is also true of a lot of tertiary education support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EBut who do we take the money from? We take the money from the people who leave school at 17, and we deliver it generally to those with wealthy backgrounds. Policies like this one take money from the cleaners, the dishwashers, the bus drivers, and the people who work in McDonald\u2019s who receive the minimum wage and deliver it to the sons and daughters of the doctors from Fendalton or the sons and daughters of the lawyers and accountants of Karori. That is the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EThese programmes, unfortunately, are sold as if they come from political parties that care about those on low incomes. The Greens and Labour tell people that the reason we must give these lavish benefits to the wealthy is so that those on low incomes have access to university. Middle-class welfare is one thing. Middle-class welfare dressed up as wealth distribution to the poor is a fraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fc05f1c-47b0-4fb0-8298-2f347adae4e3\u0022\u003EWe have had the spectacle, in the Committee stage and in the second reading, of Labour members saying to students to not pay back their loans early because it would be to their disadvantage. In most cases I agree that it would, but it would be of benefit to the country. It seems to me that students have received lavish benefits that often were paid for by low-income people. I personally did not support the Mallard amendment, which had general agreement. It seemed to me that what we were doing was advising people to spend $200 to save $100. It simply did not make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022 data-id=\u0022583388b0f1024542b7f877846f0a9409\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022583388b0f1024542b7f877846f0a9409\u0022\u003ERAHUI KATENE (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very brief call on the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. The issue of student loan repayment is a very significant one facing the nation. It is a collective challenge, as the mountain of debt is threatened to grow by $15 billion by 2014. But, as other speakers have pointed out, it is not just the quantum of the debt that concerns us; it is the huge impact on students and their families. An estimated 120,000 holders of student loans are in arrears or are failing to make repayments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe have a particular concern for the future of M\u0101ori students. The evidence tells us that more M\u0101ori have a student loan debt than any other group, although the level of debt held is similar to other groups. Five years after study, M\u0101ori students are also less likely to have made progress towards repayment of their student loans than non-M\u0101ori students. In a study undertaken by R Jefferies for Te Puni Kokiri in 1997, he concluded that the increasing participation in the student loan system by M\u0101ori students reflects the necessity that for many M\u0101ori the student loan scheme provides the financial support that is necessary to participate in higher education. So there are many complex issues, which, in and by themselves, need to be addressed, not just the issues of this bill related to student loan debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EThere is the core issue about why M\u0101ori have the lowest post-study incomes and repay their loans more slowly than other groups. The annual report from Te T\u0101huhu o te M\u0101tauranga 3 years ago tells that M\u0101ori certificate-level students carry a larger student loan debt 5 years after study, reflecting notably lower earnings. M\u0101ori with bachelor\u2019s degrees or post-graduate qualifications also had notably higher average leaving loan balances than non-M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill at the third reading as we know that the current student loan debt is capable of impairing the long-term financial base and self-confidence of young students. We must do everything we can to protect their interests and safeguard their futures. However, I want to leave with a couple of comments that I have drawn from the excellent submissions of students from within my rohe of Te Tai Tonga, from my home town, the students association of Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology. They told the Education and Science Committee that the bill is just a band-aid solution; only those graduates who can afford to pay $500 above compulsory payments will benefit; living costs are rising from recession; the bill does nothing to address the initial cost of tertiary education in the first place; and, if education was affordable, the Government would not have to propose such measures in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2e2ee61-b3b9-4a89-bcc3-5b7be76c5825\u0022\u003EAlthough I agree with the previous speakers that we must incentivise New Zealanders to pay off debt as fast as they can, I do not think we can overlook the systemic issues that this students association has brought to the House. We would hope that further legislation to affect these issues will also come before the House as a matter of urgency in the direct future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9195b6ed254bf1a2cde9ca0a4610e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9195b6ed254bf1a2cde9ca0a4610e1\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E The contribution of the Green member, Russel Norman, to this debate on the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill is probably not worthy of comment, but I need to say one thing: it must be nice to be in a situation where he can stand in this Chamber, spend taxpayers\u2019 money as if there was no tomorrow, and know that he will never have to take responsibility for it, because he will never be in Government. I wonder about all those New Zealanders who do not get to go to university, all of those young people who leave school at 15 and go into the workforce, and who are taxed from the moment they start work. They will never be able to aspire to the sort of income that graduates will be able to aspire to. All that the Green member\u2019s contribution brought home to me was that his party represents narrow, selfish, and sectional interests. Thank heavens, for the sake of the taxpayer, that party will never be in a position to spend taxpayers\u2019 money! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe debate has been very interesting, and I am gratified that Labour finally came to its senses and saw that in actual fact it had no choice but to accept this bill. It had no choice. There is a critical date in all of this: 1 April 2006. This legislation really has its beginnings at that point. That was the point when student loans became interest-free. From that time there has been a downward trend in the repayment of student loans. This bill is designed to adjust that balance. The most important word that has been used in this debate is \u201Cincentivise\u201D. This relates to an effort by the Government\u2014supported, I am pleased to say, by Labour\u2014to incentivise students to repay their loans sooner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EIt was interesting, as the debate progressed, to see naive young members like Mr Nash stand up and lecture people like myself on financial literacy. I tell Mr Nash that people of my generation knew that their first obligation was to pay off their debt. That is financial literacy. For that member and others to suggest in this Chamber that there are better uses of taxpayers\u2019 money that has been loaned to people than for those people to pay off their debt is, I suggest, financial illiteracy of the worst type. I have to ask whether Mr Nash and some of his other colleagues\u2014one-term MPs is all they will ever be\u2014have ever thought about the risk of putting money into places like finance companies or Auckland apartments. I issue a caution to all borrowers who listen to the health warning to be very, very careful where they put their money. They should not listen to the financial illiterates in the Labour Party. They do not know a lot. It sounded good, but they do not know a lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe one message has to be that the best thing people can do\u2014the key to their financial future\u2014is to pay off debt as quickly as they possibly can. Let us imagine what a tragedy it would be if young person who had the opportunity to pay off part of their debt early put their money into some high-flying investment and then lost it. Do I need to remind Labour members of what happened in that party\u2019s last years in Government? How many New Zealanders are now seriously financially disadvantaged because they did not pay off debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002246f10a4ca1a944cd9e6bd53b1a1a65ae\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f857285e12a4fb3948a1dc6b9c97217\u0022\u003EMining in Conservation Areas\u2014Clarification of Quotation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022132e672458be4920a81e43c8f7a774b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132e672458be4920a81e43c8f7a774b1\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e921ed588c4316bbd35b35b11bcd6e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member inform the House what it is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb49643a3afc45f6a3bfa80202bfec88\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: It concerns a quote yesterday from a press release of mine, and I wish to clarify any misunderstanding about the quote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952a1dddefe04978bc472786db24be03\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal explanation about that matter. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The honourable member may proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ab81aba077407dad05ad22aed93f7b\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday the Minister of Energy and Resources, in answer to a supplementary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228944c015a8e54714a397ee08c79ecda9\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It should be a personal statement about the member, not about other members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f28f4848ede84dc5bad92c256d69c2dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister makes a very good point. I remind the honourable member that a personal explanation must be about a personal matter. It should not start by talking about someone else; it should start by talking about the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9116c12f8bd4bec9bdcfba2d46ba992\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is, of course, my first personal statement to the House, and I would seek some guidance. It is difficult to make the personal clarification if the circumstances in which that clarification has to be made are not set out first. So I would seek your indulgence, given that this is my first opportunity to make such a statement, to at least set the frame in which the personal clarification has to be made. Otherwise it would make no sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257cf6dca762948908fea681c4106e5b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it would be reasonable for the honourable member to set out the matter that caused her concern, without necessarily naming another member of the House. It is not about another member of the House; it is the issue that the member is making the personal explanation about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5013c40fa1341d0ab8dc691502393f6\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. Yesterday, in answer to a supplementary question, a Minister quoted from a press release of mine, and I quote from the supplementary answer: \u201CI have seen a report in the form of a press release in support of that goal from a very surprising source. In 2006 the person concerned\u201D\u2014that is me\u2014\u201Cissued a press release about the requirement for Solid Energy to move 250 Augustus snails to make way for the expansion of Solid Energy\u2019s Stockton mine. That person said \u2018This case clearly shows that it is possible to balance the economic concerns of miners and the conservation concerns of protecting endangered species in such a way that all parties are happy,\u2019 \u201D. That was the content of the quote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThat comment and that quote were taken out of context. I did not refer, in that quote, to the removal of Powelliphanta augustus by Solid Energy at its Stockton mine. In fact, my reference was to Mount Burnett, some 100 kilometres from the Stockton mine. In the Mount Burnett case I was referring to the then Minister of Conservation who had prevented an area of Powelliphanta habitat from being mined, against the wishes of the mining company. I used this as an example to contrast with that Minister\u2019s argument that in the Mount Augustus case, removing the species to allow mining was \u201Cthe only possible decision\u201D. I simply wish to ensure that members have a correct understanding of my statement in relation to the impact of mining on conservation land and the protection of endangered species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022215ef29b3fba4d9b9e6b1c76bcd7d800\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205829c9ab42c48d187b6b3eea7b0c322\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022379ec9d47bbe4f04ae245323500f4203\u0022\u003EMinisters\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E1. Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702a070a634a4147a4ac83fcc8e69664\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in all his Ministers; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00229eced8dbceaf417b8b6fb87e63026a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eced8dbceaf417b8b6fb87e63026a75\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes; because they are talented people working hard for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe2258a771c401faf0e38a8135944c8\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that in all matters his Minister of Finance has followed that part of the Cabinet Manual that reads: \u201C\u2026 Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4293aecb8db4ae6a65292bc815446ba\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I understand that the Minister of Finance gets the same accommodation allowance as about a hundred other members of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de49992bb243431b8bba7cd3b579daa6\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that it is ethical for the Minister of Finance to undertake legal manoeuvres that happen to increase his family trust\u2019s receipts from the taxpayer, at the same time as the Minister of Finance requires restraint in every other aspect of Government expenditure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617a8f8923ac4695a4f45867ea27f6eb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the Minister of Finance has explained many times publicly that he accepts that there was a perception problem, and that is why he paid the money back and now receives the same allowance as about a hundred other members of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d816235aeaf440a09eec7810d850a743\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that it is now time for the Minister of Finance to release his family trust deed, with appropriate deletions to protect the privacy of others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229efff10c4b5e46a295c11ed27b3edb4b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Minister of Finance receives the same housing allowance as about a hundred other members of Parliament, and that member could ask the same question of those hundred other members of Parliament, should he so wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172e1de9a32a4f25bd215fdbad2e2b10\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the precise pecuniary interest that must be met before it is permissible to lease a home from a family trust for use as a ministerial residence\u2014is it a personal pecuniary interest test or a familial pecuniary interest test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cece5e4a4fa74557b9daae520affeb20\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Finance has said many times, he accepts that there was a perception problem with the arrangements. He kept to all the rules, but he paid the money back. What else can he do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be2b465fac84eceb85a76a53e652906\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was very precise. It had no extra material in it. It asked which of two tests should be used. That question was not addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c703799f0cd41daaaa484cce48c172d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask the Hon Bill English whether he could focus on the test that is applied, because the question was specifically about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208dc5f8cf4fa464d873167ec5158babc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister has no ministerial responsibility for that in his capacity as Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d2e6058d884da689900ab231011638\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It is a long-established tradition in the Westminster system that, in fact, Prime Ministers have responsibility for everything that each of their Ministers has responsibility for, including the things that they are responsible for themselves. Prime Ministers can transfer primary questions, but you know as well as I do, Mr Speaker, that in the House of Commons and in this Parliament Prime Ministers can be asked questions that relate to conservation, to economics, and to social welfare. They are the Prime Minister and therefore they have to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac996ad17c244f118ec3c405759f6a4b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The dilemma I face is\u2014I take it that the honourable Minister is still arguing that there is no ministerial responsibility for that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214ae40443bb1405da861f0a00ff40093\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I can answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d17b6d390f4a0aa65b2b71f3e9da54\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is happy to answer the question? I thank the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fece5ef7c8ef4513bd597f2df1851c49\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The member is asking for a legal opinion. The Prime Minister has been advised that the Minister of Finance took legal advice\u2014legal advice that was available to every member of Parliament about the declaration of pecuniary interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe16c7b7a954167955ce0d30b1c2e2f\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I am very happy to reword the question, if you would like, in order that it falls within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241995d5803c7440297bbca5cea05ac3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member was seeking to ask a further supplementary question. Was he on a point of order then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c5641f2052413cbd715a81d0b9e1c4\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am offering to rephrase the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224944bfd554064a6f85ecdee7d7e99edd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the Minister answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f34bdc1d52845dea4b10abc60c41fcb\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: If he has answered it, that is fine. What, then, does the Prime Minister make of this document headed \u201CTravel, Accommodation, Attendance and Communications Services Available to Members of the Executive\u201D? It is dated 26 May this year, which is proof that it was signed by Mr John Key. It states on page 3, under paragraph (c), concerning the principle that expenditure must be properly documented and supported with tax invoices and receipts: \u201CMembers of the Executive must be open in the use of public resources and disclose any conflict of interest in utilising entitlements, whether that conflict is pecuniary, personal, familial, or as the result of any associations.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0f2eb97d3584df6b03d8262538744fc\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It can only re-state what the Minister of Finance has said many times. He agreed that there was a perception of an interest in the arrangements, and that is why he paid the money back. What else can he do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa46224e67c496aa8848253f95ed6ff\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Was the test by which Mr English was judged the test that I have just read out or some other test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227daea8a93fe844cf916a07f5c0ec0691\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Finance kept to all the rules. He accepted there was a perception of conflict, and paid the money back. The Minister of Finance receives the same accommodation allowance as a hundred other members of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91fd373dcaa45d0ae6f2a4e41274f86\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. Does the Prime Minister have confidence that the Minister for Land Information will accept the recommendation of the New Zealand Geographic Board that Whanganui City should be spelt with an \u201Ch\u201D, which is consistent with the history, the heritage, the culture, the language, and the people of Whanganui, and what will be the process to enact this decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277ce9c92d5204d23b5a41f87a9c55cee\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is my understanding that the Minister for Land Information, who is a considered Minister, will look at the board\u2019s findings and make any inquiries he sees fit before making his decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222da7dee4809a4794a2fb9fc747c40bc7\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. One is the Executive Travel, Accommodation, Attendance, and Communications Services Determination 2009, and the second is the details thereof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1318c5f6fd14929800b58a2f54b475a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We should put leave for one document at a time. Are they two associated documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7e7c8e4a6744d16966830135ec08623\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: They are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d115419eedb246d3acd662c96a56749c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those two documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267558121063b44aca37185b5d616f84e\u0022\u003EFinancial Position\u2014Government Measures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f9fd35f864e432eb696d30f805e2e68\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What are the measures this Government is taking to improve New Zealand\u2019s financial position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79835e0dd7a41ba8c1cad0628333495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79835e0dd7a41ba8c1cad0628333495\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has moved to get on top of spiralling public debt, to maintain New Zealand\u2019s credit rating, to continue investment to support jobs through programmes such as the home insulation programme and infrastructure investment, and to focus on better, smarter public services for less money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a201844274ef4193adba80b3da189512\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits has New Zealand already seen from this strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f73faed10b424d984c5ba8a1f1a5eb\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: We have made good progress to date. New Zealand has maintained its credit rating. We have maintained entitlements and protected the most vulnerable in society. We have been able to assist in rebuilding business and consumer confidence. It is my hope that unemployment will not reach the peaks that have been forecast, but if it does, that we will get unemployment levels down quickly, because whether people have a job is actually the most important measure of a recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30a4d4f14384f38b7cf2b77202c3d1f\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s statement that he is going to \u201Ctilt the playing field in favour of investment, saving, working, and exporting,\u201D does he agree with Pipfruit Growers New Zealand and the Manufacturers and Exporters Association that the rapidly rising dollar is driving exporters out of business; if so, what is he going to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a082e876f4a491eade89f55ff86287c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am concerned about the level of the dollar, particularly given that the economy has been in recession for about 18 months. It is going to take time for us to undo the damage done by that member\u2019s party over the last 10 years, when it allowed debt-funded consumption to get out of hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200f3adfde3054fbaa55111e27be6a79e\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How could progress towards a stronger economy that sustains more jobs be derailed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd72d3b5c7b54fa59014625e6eac25f4\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It would be difficult to create a sustainable, better-balanced economy if, for instance, the dollar kept rising and stayed very high. It would also be difficult to get any kind of balance in the economy if we followed the advice of the Labour Opposition, which is to go out and borrow another $6 billion when we are already up to our ears in debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906295bcb89d4782b893dd340cd66d09\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday I raised, and you upheld, a point of order on exactly the same matter, from that same member. That point was that he has no responsibility for Labour Party policy, and the Labour Party has released no such policies, nor made any such commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0b5471754ba425b9615fd479a6223ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member must be careful not to try to debate issues by way of a point of order. I do not think what the Minister of Finance, Bill English, said was excessive at all. He did not get into Labour\u2019s policies, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224255c8a632c9467d9729c2cab08f073c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a fresh point of order. I seek your guidance. Yesterday, you upheld an almost identical point of order of mine from the same member. You declared that he did not have responsibility for Labour Party policy and asked him to desist from those comments. It would appear that the member has trifled with your ruling of yesterday, because he has done exactly the same stunt today. I seek your clarification on what steps you would propose to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed933d95873b44e18bdbd5508fdaf25e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that the Minister was not trifling with my ruling from yesterday. If the member reflects back on what transpired yesterday, the Minister started to make much more comment about the quality of certain Labour policies. Today he was simply making an allegation about what he understands to be a certain amount of money that would need to be borrowed. He did not go further into particular policies. I will not take the matter further. I did not consider that excessive, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247a22460a4674affa3f835b6d9649dc4\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a fresh point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e5e899e816416890c5385573e5cb83\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It had better be fresh point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022281c03a79a604691a2132f43a1a0c395\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Without reference to the point of order that you upheld yesterday, I ask your guidance now on what appears to be a new or extended ruling that you just introduced. If it is now permissible for Ministers to refer, to some extent, to the policies of other parties, what is the guideline\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ff6eacf04f49d0a5b1b10bd81c781d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to resume his seat and not trifle with the Chair. A little bit of common sense should be applied. The member has been in this House long enough to know the banter that goes back and forth in answering questions, and I will intervene if Ministers excessively focus on the policies of another political party, which are not their responsibility. But the extent to which the Minister referred to the Opposition\u2019s policy was not excessive at all, to me. I think this is wasting the time of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c305f71fd884d25befedcd9dbdb7067\u0022\u003EMining\u2014Protected Areas and Forests\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022295c9f4c142b46e78804be18036f4b0e\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: When he said that \u201CA report circulated by the World Bank some years ago ranked New Zealand second in the world in terms of natural wealth per capita\u201D, was he aware that protected areas and forests make up 29 percent of that wealth, whereas subsoil assets make up just 3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002264d914733eea4a778c16c3566754038e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264d914733eea4a778c16c3566754038e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The general point I was trying to make was that everyone knows that New Zealand has magnificent, pristine, and very beautiful natural resources in the form of our conservation estates above ground. There is no question about that. But without wanting to make a personal statement, I suggest that the member has taken me somewhat out of context. I do agree with her statement that it is clear that environmental goals can be met alongside responsible mining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e0c30850604f9d9b6c0d3b0ee2db83\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister, then, agree that 29 percent is bigger than 3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222838668d4d734bdebbda0e7e415c80e9\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Can I come back to the member on that later?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc1bda29386490c8775fe66dfbb3a66\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: How could responsible mining contribute to lifting New Zealand\u2019s economic performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272f3d12cccd64a4e8a00de9addd31e9d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Mining uses just 40 square kilometres of the New Zealand land mass, which is less than 0.015 percent of New Zealand\u2019s total land area. The export value of that mining activity is $175,000 per hectare. Dairy farming by comparison uses 20,000 square kilometres, with an export value of only $3,500. I note that it is Green Party policy to get rid of dairy farming, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200118487b63e4e6098ee5ed254189007\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confused by the word \u201Cnational\u201D in national parks into thinking his party can ride roughshod over the long tradition in New Zealand that national parks should be conserved as they are and not mined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac72609f296464ea560e0cee9e74645\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fecfec922c7c427c9adc993627b3f190\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister thinks the Stockton mine\u2014a photo of which I have here\u2014is a good example of good environmental mining, is he happy to see our national parks looking like the Stockton mine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022916391c031c3401c99683513d5bec1b8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I make it very clear that no one is talking about mining our national parks. We are saying that there is a huge amount of land in schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act, and we simply want to have a look at it to see what is there. I do not see what the Green Party is so particularly wound up about, especially given the member\u2019s own statement that it is clear that it \u201Cis possible to balance the economic concerns of miners and the conservation concerns of protecting endangered species in such a way that all parties are happy,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9ae574e02d4b0f8d096725cd2c72fa\u0022\u003EHon Tim Groser\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that according to advice provided by the Department of Conservation to the Minister of Conservation, no fewer than 82 separate mines were operating on Department of Conservation land on the Labour Government\u2019s watch, mining everything from gold through to limestone; and is he able to explain to a totally confused New Zealand public why Labour members would describe that mining on its watch as a win-win environment-economic result, but when the issue of mining on Department of Conservation land is raised under National it is called rape and pillage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f93524532a649c7a60ef1efabe346fa\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of that extraordinary contradiction in views. I assume that it was that situation that led Metiria Turei to make the statement that \u201Cit is possible to balance the economic concerns of miners and the conservation concerns of protecting endangered species in such a way that all parties are happy,\u201D. For 9 years the Green Party supported Labour in its efforts. Now, because National wants to take a responsible approach to this matter, everything is all wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293842a4ac50b45babed8b4fc1671abf4\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that he has ruled out from the stocktake that he intends to undertake all of the land contained within all of New Zealand\u2019s national parks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e30c18175184e2ca98518c7d9df08f1\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows which bits of the national parks are in schedule 4\u2014all of them, in fact. But we have said that we are doing a stocktake of the lands in schedule 4\u2014end of story. I also say that the process will be very, very public, and any decisions that result from it will be able to be judged by the public. What do the Greens have against the jobs of the many thousands of New Zealanders who work in these industries each and every year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd98849f525347dd9096cd51af94bef1\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was quite specific: will the stocktake cover national parks, or not? The Minister has not addressed that part of the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93b99a92842434e859fa7147e981e1e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the Minister did. He said the stocktake covers the land in schedule 4, and that does include parks. I believe he answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259d9fbc86df543e4a41ed3368472e3a0\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Balance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8de167de87f4a0dbc0ce3d371571ea4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cthe Government has struck the right balance between its economic responsibilities and its environmental responsibilities.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e0e0f3f37bc4e1eaf5a14a3be861673\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e0e0f3f37bc4e1eaf5a14a3be861673\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae4d4e5830e34620818042f69ee46dae\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Should the emissions trading scheme therefore introduce an incentive for emitters to reduce emissions and adopt clean technology alternatives; if so, why does the Government\u2019s proposed \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme have no cap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb663e467d44d16845ad4b3a56ee78a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will be aware, there have been many years of discussion about the emissions trading scheme. The feedback I have had from the wider community and the business community is that regardless of whether they like the rules\u2014and many of them do not\u2014they think it is better to have some certainty so that they can get on with investment and creating jobs. That is what this Government is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022064f8bb8880246318172a51cc1ba5d53\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Will that certainty include the giving of up to $1 billion in additional taxpayer subsidies to companies like Rio Tinto to encourage them to reduce emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff2c435f38804775b92d4798af20613e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not agree with the member\u2019s characterisation of the decision. He needs to keep in mind that a country that is, to quote the media today, \u201Crunning chronic trade \u2026 deficits and which is up to its nostrils in debt to the rest of the world cannot afford to be cavalier about risks\u201D of exporting our export industries, losing jobs, and losing export-earning capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229051a93bfb3f4bfa9710d4dc7ccb7328\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: If we cannot afford to be cavalier about debt, why does the Minister\u2019s Government use a carbon price of $200 a tonne to reject calls for a 40 percent reduction target, and then give a price of $25 a tonne when estimating the cost to the taxpayer of the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme? Who is being cavalier now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ec06350f724981a5c205097234bfee\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the member\u2019s representation is, I understand, incorrect. If the member is really concerned about getting in touch with middle New Zealand, I invite him to go to the Rio Tinto smelter at T\u012Bwai, address a crowd of 700 middle New Zealanders, and tell them he would rather see them working in a smelter in China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228642a7ae8790470ba51ba90b43985f8e\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Support for M\u0101ori Students\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c118c9ed92046259cff021a73de1189\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What is the Government doing to support schools to raise achievement for M\u0101ori students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002274aeb0e9065a43f9ab38ad7fa9b96d7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274aeb0e9065a43f9ab38ad7fa9b96d7e\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday the Hon Dr Pita Sharples and I announced that 17 more schools will benefit from the Te K\u014Dtahitanga secondary schools programme next year. Funding of almost $20 million over 4 years will allow the number of schools taking part in Te K\u014Dtahitanga to expand from 33 to 50. I am delighted that we have been able to extend the programme, which will now benefit an extra 7,000 M\u0101ori students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd16d83e70941669344fd6a177f7a0a\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen about commitments to raise M\u0101ori student achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659d187affe4457385942ae396c1dc74\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report from the Hon Phil Goff. He said last weekend to M\u0101ori students: \u201Cunder Labour you are going to do much better. You are going to achieve more.\u201D Because we have not heard anything other than this puffy promise, one can only assume that this means more than the \u201CWassup!\u201D badges that the previous Labour Minister of Education personally signed off and proudly defended in this House. Do members remember those badges? I am proud that this Government is investing in something that actually makes a difference for our M\u0101ori students\u2014Te K\u014Dtahitanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8c0b1fdba014adc87e6e56ac6761404\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: If Te K\u014Dtahitanga is about teacher-pupil relationships, which is identified in research as the 11th most effective strategy for raising achievement, what plans does the Minister have to support the 10 other strategies that researchers identified as being even more effective at raising achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277b724f0720c40fd943f0fae96aeb101\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: As that member well knows, formative assessment, which he blogged about recently, is one of those strategies, and national standards that this Government is introducing will address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c7a9af086824f1dac5db923bb339c4c\u0022\u003EKelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: If research identifies that parents who understand the language of education are better able to engage with their children\u2019s teachers in schools, which assists their children\u2019s learning, what plans, if any, does the Minister have to assist M\u0101ori parents to understand the language of education so that they may engage with their children\u2019s teachers in schools and assist their children\u2019s learning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022629f77b23d3a4fa0a4220553867c47e4\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted that that member has asked me that question. We have just come through a consultation around national standards. Over 2,000 parents came along to consultation meetings, including many M\u0101ori and Pasifika wh\u0101nau. We had 3,000 written submissions to that consultation, and they were very clear about what they want from education. First of all, they want to know in clear language how their children are doing at school. They want to know what they can do to be of assistance to those children, and how they can know their children\u2019s strengths and weaknesses. That is exactly what our national standards policy will deliver to M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and European families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984fada59c954efd9b62efba72c64635\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that the rationale behind He K\u0101kano, the new professional learning and school-based development programme, is to develop culturally responsive leadership? How will that lead to improved M\u0101ori outcomes in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f21f0d7d7cc496ba7f9c6340e085e7d\u0022\u003EHon ANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that member is absolutely correct. He K\u0101kano will develop culturally responsible leadership in up to 100 principals from next year. All the evidence shows us that M\u0101ori students succeed when schools recognise, value, and respect M\u0101ori culture and language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ab3689d312a4e10bca7af8e9d3cb66f\u0022\u003EWomen\u2019s Causes\u2014Minister\u2019s Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3c02fb55d24929ac1142bc52f18579\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs: What actions has she taken to advance the causes of women in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022788e5d85ee3f489291422ca341dd15c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022788e5d85ee3f489291422ca341dd15c9\u0022\u003EHon PANSY WONG (Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to that question would take up the balance of question time, so I will confine myself to the three priorities of the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs. They are increasing the number of women in leadership through initiatives such as Women on Boards, addressing the gender pay gap, and reducing violence against women, especially sexual violence. These priorities have received overwhelming support from the 52 public meetings that have been held by the ministry throughout the country in recent months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6de590c1574469aa677e1b7ea12251\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Given that two out of every three of the newly jobless in New Zealand are women, what action has she taken to get her Government to create jobs in the parts of the economy where women work; or will she continue to sit on her hands because she believes that it is inevitable that women will bear the brunt of the recession, as she said in her press statement dated 25 February 2009?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc9343ff3c5f431e8eb602d1850d7b03\u0022\u003EHon PANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: The National Government has done much to stimulate the economy, especially our Prime Minister, who is also the Minister of Tourism. In one of the workshops with women, I was impressed when they talked about the hospitality and tourism industry being an important industry for women. I am glad that the Minister of Tourism is putting in more money and a cycleway project to promote tourism in order to create jobs, especially for women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e0d72205d445a3b917e8dbbd5c593a\u0022\u003EAmy Adams\u003C/span\u003E: What support did the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs receive in Budget 2009 to advance the causes of women in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc3ae72dead0403384f1223abde57c33\u0022\u003EHon PANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I thank my National colleagues, who support the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs. It received $2 million for the next 4 years to tackle the 12 percent pay gap that has existed since 2001 under Labour\u2019s watch. Now the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs can embark on four projects to tackle the pay gap. The first one is to tackle the differences in pay between male and female professionals after they have completed tertiary study. The second one is to promote the business case for flexible work arrangements. The third is to develop career paths for women in low-paid jobs, and the fourth is to highlight the barriers that prevent young women from choosing trade occupations. I thank my National colleagues for their support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394aa01ee10545079b58a55cfa0597c1\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from endless research, will she take action to support the call of the 15,808 New Zealanders who signed my petition urging the Government to reinstate pay equity investigations for the female\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4bf6aaeb7eb4eb8b96fc7f32613e7cd\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a015e112729c488cbe7f7783940a3d87\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is a point of order, and I think I know what the member\u2019s point of order will be. Members could not hear that question. I ask whether that was the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ee528dc-7870-4553-95ed-5ec0cab60f07\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ea5b3fea574b07a496021ff3c34726\u0022\u003ECatherine Delahunty\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we cannot hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a2038f8ccb4475880fe5ba8c5f3bbc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask members to be reasonable. I ask the member to start her question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022808eef34e1ad4287948fab3223c754e3\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister take action to support the call of the 15,808 New Zealanders who signed my petition urging the Government to reinstate pay equity investigations for the female-dominated occupations of school support staff and social workers at the front line of Child, Youth, and Family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb91a30242845a29047dafd3044887a\u0022\u003EHon PANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: The National Government listens and responds. I say to those signatories that my diligent and hard-working colleague the Minister of Labour makes sure that resources developed by the Department of Labour\u2019s employment and equity divisions are used, and ensures that the chief executive continues to have response plans that take seriously pay equity between male and female workers. I say \u201CGood on you!\u201D to the Minister of Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afaf8e87a28d44fd9a5bda59e7c67099\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that she will not be renewing the Action Plan for New Zealand Women, or will she finally do something constructive and announce its renewal as the country celebrates women\u2019s suffrage day this Saturday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ee13fefdd34f88b0888f9e7dd31f71\u0022\u003EHon PANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that only one person raised the subject of the Action Plan for New Zealand Women during the 52 public meetings held in New Zealand. That person was the Labour spokesperson on women\u2019s affairs. In the same 52 meetings, there was overwhelming support for the three priorities set by the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs. They are about women in leadership, addressing the gender pay gap, and reducing violence against women. I say that National is on the right track with women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229862651516e4476289266efe620cf5df\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table what is left of a document to update the Minister of Education on the pay and employment equity review in the compulsory schooling sector. Most of it has been blanked out, but I would like to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156b0ddf26074613ad06b758d1970878\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226050a733c2154fec93cdf940c89d68c1\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the press release from Pansy Wong dated 25 February that I referred to, where she said it was inevitable that women would bear the brunt of the recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c867dba1ac4bbf83f20f6796c782f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b0013c0dbf4d1a868b70365f7316ff\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of a speech given today at an event celebrating the signatures gathered on the pay equity petition. The speech was given by Angela McLeod from the Pay Equity Challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5389dec25448ba9a81108fde2544cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221833eba540cc4ca2b1496b46b1f3d9e8\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of a speech by Putiputi T\u0113mara, a school support worker who gathered around 400 signatures on the pay equity petition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d3807e9d00b48bea2216002ea9dd369\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226865b2993384440198c1b765761e2366\u0022\u003EHon PANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the publication Women On Boards, which celebrates women in leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212961bf9f86043c0a1af2e5f398af16e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d4b19f5bc44458f9b94963fefc31987\u0022\u003EBroadband Roll-out\u2014Rural and Urban Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c500f5f8034d50a4147a152d32e36a\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Communications and Information Technology: How does the $1.5 billion urban broadband initiative announced yesterday relate to the rural broadband plan announced last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022 data-id=\u00223b2a60db89a847688d55f61a026cba37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b2a60db89a847688d55f61a026cba37\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Communications and Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Both policies aim to significantly improve the internet connection speeds of New Zealanders in both rural and urban areas through significant roll-outs of fibre infrastructure. The rural programme is designed to improve rural broadband speeds over a shorter time frame to match the speeds currently being experienced in many urban areas. The urban initiative is a longer-term plan to introduce the next generation of ultra-fast broadband with fibre to the home for three-quarters of New Zealanders over the next 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d60251b9fce48988aef7c3526ffc9f6\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the response to the urban broadband initiative announced yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eaf5c0c2209470da27c4c5d750fe7b9\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s announcement has been welcomed by the telecommunications sector. Leading Australian commentator Paul Budde commented that the emphasis on dark fibre \u201Cis a great way of addressing this development as you clearly create the right environment to move away from a telco-centric infrastructure approach.\u201D Internet New Zealand said: \u201CThis is a world-leading programme that can be expected to deliver the infrastructure New Zealand needs.\u201D The Telecommunications Users Association of New Zealand\u2019s chief executive officer, the inimitable Mr Ernie Newman, has stated: \u201CThe paper builds very constructively on the work done previously \u2026 It takes into account most of the key issues raised in submissions, \u2026 It is an excellent blueprint on which to build.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b697a06de2044654a2b4079680a5e15a\u0022\u003EPeseta Sam Lotu-Iiga\u003C/span\u003E: What role could Telecom play in the urban broadband initiative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241a5d0918472464dbc06eb452c791821\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is supportive of involvement from any potential partners that are willing to meet the tender criteria. We have specifically stated that bids covering a combination of regions, including national bids, will be entertained. All bids received will be assessed against the same criteria. The challenge for any prospective partner is whether it is willing to meet the open access requirements for passive fibre and the ownership requirements, where the partner would be a shareholder in the company that rolls out the fibre but would not control it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231292014d7ab47149b6d982cec4d9e69\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: What proportion of the $300 million announced in the rural broadband scheme last week is public money, and where is the new money coming from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b23d2d400f194568839713b5e4b12fc5\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is aware, those details have not been announced. But they will be announced very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222aa0b524-c38d-45aa-bd5b-99c5927085f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf70d6dff6a441308c79f286518ca221\u0022\u003EClare Curran\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister guarantee that the people of north Hokianga\u2014where Telecom will not give good service, where the lines often malfunction in damp weather, where dial-up is almost impossible to get, and where satellite is not universally available\u2014will get fast broadband under either of the plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a244152-977c-48d2-bf53-4f3a369a27a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbbb6c5a30bc4acea7d3cac0bef67b42\u0022\u003EHon STEVEN JOYCE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the specific example the member mentions, but the Government\u2019s rural broadband initiative will go a great deal of the way to improving broadband speeds throughout rural areas by ensuring that the fibre backhaul, or the link from the trunk network to the local loops, will be a huge amount better than it is currently in the existing environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255ab8f2d5af04b018ad697de51872410\u0022\u003EPalm Kernel Imports\u2014Profitability for Palm Oil Industry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c9eaaa735747bbb017b15370185b7e\u0022\u003EDr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his comment that palm kernel extract was a waste product and not leading to deforestation; if so, does he believe that the $317 million that New Zealand paid for palm kernel in 2008 made no contribution to profitability of the oil palm industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f970080d143147799d7299866a8c503b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f970080d143147799d7299866a8c503b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes; I am advised that what drives the expansion of the industry and deforestation in places in South-east Asia is the demand for palm oil, which is used in a whole range of consumer products. The supplementary feed being imported into this country is a very low-value by-product of the industry that is otherwise burnt or left to rot on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a969755d824cc5abd9bc377c0e186c\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Why will he not admit the obvious, which is that because palm kernel extract contributes up to 15 percent of the income stream of the palm oil industry, it significantly adds to the profitability of that industry and helps fuel its expansion into virgin rainforest across South-east Asia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b800431fee4cc086b6ddaf1080fcfe\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There seems to be some dispute about the proportion of value that is added. The member may have different information, but the information the Prime Minister has been given is that it is about 1.5 percent rather than 15 percent. We can no doubt resolve that matter. Palm oil - based products include margarine, processed foods, soap, and washing powder. I am keen to see whether Greenpeace intends to picket our supermarkets, if it really wants to stop deforestation in South-east Asia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e88c39c3ceea41f7b7538f75bbaa238b\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware of comments made by Daniel Cheow, the managing director of a Malaysian palm kernel exporter called Palmbase, who said that palm kernel prices \u201Chave shot up as demand is coming in much faster than expected\u201D, which in part is a result of the dramatic increase in demand coming from New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240635a05525648aea7516c64e218e8fe\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with those comments but I will repeat for the member that the primary driver of value in the palm oil industry is consumer products that are bought every day by New Zealanders in our supermarkets. I look forward to the Greens and Greenpeace picketing those supermarkets, if they really want to stop deforestation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb49ee66-7ca7-472d-a4a1-b099fd594dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebdc44dffb36491caa3191c8d8c9bd36\u0022\u003EDr Russel Norman\u003C/span\u003E: We certainly will be campaigning. Given that diesel could be considered a by-product of the petrol industry, a by-product that generates only a proportion of the profits of oil companies, will he now argue that greenhouse emissions coming from the burning of diesel should not be taken into account, because it is only a by-product of the petrol industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf36addfc834bb093e9349abdcc074c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: There may be a range of by-products from the palm oil industry. I simply repeat that the palm kernel part of the industry is small. Of course, it has some impact; the Government does not deny that. But the real driver of the environmental impacts, which concern, I think, every New Zealander, is actually the consumer products that we buy every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022112425df896d4a588fea4d87a98fa4e9\u0022\u003EInsulation, Home\u2014Criteria for Free Installation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295abf27b0b46434a8fdac9930c723ca0\u0022\u003ECHRIS HIPKINS (Labour\u2014Rimutaka)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What criteria will be used to determine which households could receive free home insulation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cede88812bfc49c38b7c821ab1065293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cede88812bfc49c38b7c821ab1065293\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E As I reported to the House yesterday, in just 2 months of the scheme 60 percent of the households receiving assistance have been occupied by community services cardholders, and in most cases they will have paid nothing for that insulation, due to the third-party funding that has been attracted by the scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c7704278be1444fba24291dbf2ca73c\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was Dr Sharples correct when he said that as part of the deal with the M\u0101ori Party to support the changes to the emissions trading scheme, the Government would provide free home insulation to 2,000 M\u0101ori households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baae23c0f9a14c2cbf27753f0148b19a\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is a very, very loose and somewhat interpretive recycle of what Dr Sharples\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c7381a9ef346f99262237743c5b62a\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It was in the papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f5d733e520d4ae380abdf57eb782615\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: We all know that one does not believe everything one reads in the papers. I tell the member that Dr Sharples has raised an issue, and we are discussing that matter with him. In any event, well over 2,000 M\u0101ori households will be advantaged by this scheme over its lifetime\u2014well over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228cf0fb6b-0b8f-4327-983d-73e1166c220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226022d68b4c794934a63df7ba8e38762d\u0022\u003EDr Cam Calder\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on the success of the Warm Up New Zealand: Heat Smart scheme; if so, what do those reports say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ecc55de6cd4cb5a8aa5cb21fb88063\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As I advised the House yesterday, in just 8 weeks more than 8,000 houses have received retrofits under the scheme. This figure compares with 9,000 that were done under the previous Labour Government in the entire 2007 year, and the 11,000 done by the previous Labour Government in the 2008 year. At the moment we are on track to beat those numbers some time during the next month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5006f1f70f4ef5a6fdc6c89043c53d\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If Dr Sharples is incorrect, was Tariana Turia correct when she said that the M\u0101ori Party had secured free insulation for all low-income households as part of the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s deal to support the proposed changes to the emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435e448f1b224defb0a7dd8bd84de6f6\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I am struggling a little to work out why the Labour Party finds it so difficult to accept that the National Government, with the M\u0101ori Party coalition arrangements and the ACT Party coalition arrangements, is providing an opportunity for community services cardholders\u2014low-income New Zealanders\u2014to access free insulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c58894d7ee34c4d81aef00bdbbc9432\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is fair to prioritise free home insulation for households in Northland and the East Coast\u2014some of the warmest places in New Zealand\u2014while low-income households in places like Wellington, Invercargill, Dunedin, and Christchurch will miss out on free home insulation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042c75f6dceb4079b4ad43b31e9004f0\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The member leaps to a conclusion that, on the statistics that I have in front of me, is quite unreasonable. Firstly, Canterbury had the largest uptake of the scheme during the last 2 months\u2014the only 2 months the scheme has operated\u2014at 22 percent. Other areas in the South Island have been similarly quick to accept the scheme. I want to know why the member thinks it is OK for poor people to be cold in those parts of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767b7f435bbf4dc789fecb4503213d96\u0022\u003EChris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will there be any new funding for home insulation as part of the deal with the M\u0101ori Party to support the emissions trading scheme, or does the scheme just bring forward spending of the $323 million announced in the Budget, therefore not increasing the overall number of households receiving insulation under the Government\u2019s scheme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e791a9536c4951849236a561aa5057\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Negotiations are continuing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f545228f690a409dafcaa0cff4ac2ca7\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Deal with M\u0101ori Party\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0bdd0097b5141588893d40ef5628eea\u0022\u003EDAVID GARRETT (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Climate Change Issues: Has he a written document of what has been agreed to with the M\u0101ori Party, to advance the Government\u2019s amendments to the emissions trading scheme to a select committee; if so, will he table it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022445a9333d938472aa873dca696893988\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022445a9333d938472aa873dca696893988\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The agreement was by way of an exchange of letters between leaders. It is not appropriate to release those letters at this time, because we are working through the details of a number of proposals, and we wish to do that directly with the M\u0101ori Party, and not through public discourse, as we do with negotiations with other parties, including ACT. I would be happy to table the 13 bullet points that cover all the features of the agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d48e21af73db45faacec3927113d8b99\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have an estimate of what the agreement with the M\u0101ori Party will cost taxpayers, and, given that the agreement is only to support the referral to a select committee, what does he think the cost of an agreement for the second and third readings of the bill will be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dd5365818a48d2a81bc3772891b688\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The agreement we have in good faith with the M\u0101ori Party is to work through the details around some key initiatives for providing home insulation, as my colleague said, for low-income households. There are details about our working through a national policy statement on biodiversity under the Resource Management Act. There is a total of 13 initiatives, and I have every confidence that we can work cooperatively with the M\u0101ori Party to ensure its support for the second and third readings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022377a3af635294d428d00a1e9111e198b\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the 13 elements in the agreement with the M\u0101ori Party will be included in legislation to be introduced next week? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022462ff708896a4808aaf8d147faeb73c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The details of the 50 percent obligation, the $25 fixed price option, and the additional allocation for fishing industry to quota holders will be included in the bill next week. Other details like the Treaty clause are subject to work by officials, including Crown Law officials, in consultation with the M\u0101ori Party. Most of the other elements of the agreement do not require legislation. They are being worked on by officials in consultation with the M\u0101ori Party. We will announce those details when they are finalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac40305b4224913b4a01fe8be464667\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his earlier public statement: \u201CA separate Maori party will not help us find solutions to challenges, but will polarise the debate.\u201D; if so, why is he encouraging the segregation of M\u0101ori climate change obligations from the rest of the New Zealand community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddb8e4a146b49c3a8c95df4dfe0f300\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not. If the member looks in detail at the bill next week, he will see that although it is certainly true that M\u0101ori have a very large interest in industries like fishing, forestry, and agriculture, we have been very plain that there will not be\u2014and the M\u0101ori Party has not asked for\u2014any different rules for M\u0101ori in those industries than what there are for other New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022187e4099-cc16-4bb8-8379-82c881af1724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff643829f254f02ac30bda8ca444a65\u0022\u003EDavid Garrett\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm whether the deal involves benefit hikes, and whether the energy-efficiency assistance for home insulation is, in fact, for all low-income households, or for just M\u0101ori low-income households? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f115b72acd43499b1481fd6d2ffc38\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: On the first point, I say that the way our system of benefits works is that they are adjusted by CPI each year, and when the increased cost of both fuel and power\u2014which we have halved as part of the agreement\u2014flows through, there will be an adjustment for those benefits. In respect of the issues raised, the focus of the M\u0101ori Party has been a concern around low-income households, and it has not asked that the allocations be made specifically on the basis of any ethnicity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28dd123fd764635b544a531a45da2ba\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why the M\u0101ori concessions are good for Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, as reflected in the M\u0101ori Party commentary, or is this a case of the Government preaching indigenous declaration but acceding to indigenous desecration? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022580d23e4c523489ea42c70f010a795dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I find that interesting from a member of the Opposition. I remind him that during the time of the previous Labour administration emissions grew by 24 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b2e7fe3c3f41dfb0df7ce72be7b6ac\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Answer the question! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297268d6dc3de464e81f7a741b898e19c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Members opposite do not like it, but the reality is that their climate change record was an international embarrassment. Under this Government, with an effective agreement with the M\u0101ori Party we will have a very responsible approach to both climate change as well as the broader economic interests of M\u0101ori and other New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b563de3e2dec410ba79ee448ce8c0e15\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What measures has the Government agreed to in order to ensure that the obligations of the Crown to M\u0101ori, including the ones under the Treaty of Waitangi, are not compromised by the New Zealand emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216ae048d4eb640f186c21e877d04be54\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori Party has strongly advocated that position out of concern that M\u0101ori should not carry a disproportionate share of the costs of reducing emissions because of their concentration of economic interests in primary industry, and because of M\u0101ori being disproportionately represented in low-income households. Many of the 13 elements agreed on address this, including a specific Treaty clause in the law, additional allocations to fishing quota holders, involvement for M\u0101ori in international negotiations over forestry offset, agreements to work through the issues for pre - emissions trading scheme forest settlements, measures to lower the cost increases for petrol and power, as well as the extension of the home insulation scheme for low-income households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d268dd9fff1486eb210121a7484a4ab\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister, Dr Smith, indicated he would table some documents in the House. He appears to have forgotten that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203731760d3b74fbbbc30f8b15c8564f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table the key features negotiated between the M\u0101ori Party and the Government in respect of the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c63f27107d54cea892fab0d7bc6c012\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6a51691ce9840629cce03a5c0f470c3\u0022\u003EMinisterial Accommodation\u2014Primary Place of Residence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6e63c5c9cf468ca4a31fbead31ed7d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services: How is a Minister\u2019s primary place of residence determined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227d605122cd5d492ba49ff7f40ce7329d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d605122cd5d492ba49ff7f40ce7329d\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services: The primary place of residence for all members of Parliament, including Ministers, is determined by the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f05cc5a89e4d09bd50d619c08a0540\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: Why does Ministerial Services not provide an official residence or pay any housing allowance to the Hon Peter Dunne, the Hon Chris Finlayson, or the Hon Heather Roy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8a7e61368a4b609f4d5b1220d593bb\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Because it has been determined that their primary place of residence is Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285df55ab4971422db6d7d44cddee6ef0\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: What information did Ministerial Services receive to persuade it that the Hon Bill English complied with the criteria of the Auditor-General relating to the primary place of residence of an MP, including the criterion regarding \u201Cthe locations where the MP spends most of\u201D his or her \u201Cnon-parliamentary time;\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156855e645c54156802cc87ff42c57ea\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I assume that Ministerial Services used the same criteria that it used to determine where, for example, the Hon Pete Hodgson spent most of his time when he was an MP from Dunedin but was resident in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0b56d47ecd4ccbbad5cf217186d44d\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc01611e14047caa7f0bd691d9ab44a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid that I have already been quite generous to the honourable member because there was no provision for supplementary questions from the Progressive party today and there certainly is not provision for a second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d6b11500504e418a1dc6dc553d4fcd\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry if it was not communicated to you, but the Labour Party has given an extra supplementary question to the Progressive party today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3a75eb7f704c32a505c520a7ddd89c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But that question has already been used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8ce1694e8144deb3f3238daa5ea943\u0022\u003EHon Darren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He has had only one. We have given him two supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cbcb2257d714ab58c171531fbfc48d8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He has been given two supplementary questions? I beg the honourable member\u2019s pardon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8fec74863c6468aa1b69ae4ca339b48\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: What information did Ministerial Services receive to persuade it that the Hon Bill English complied with the criteria of the Auditor-General relating to the primary place of residence of an MP, including the criterion regarding \u201Cthe locations where the MP\u2019s current spouse or partner and family live, and where other dependent family members usually live (including where they spend most time, work, or attend school);\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e1642651f840fa9afe0d987173f11b\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I imagine Ministerial Services relied on the determination made by the Speaker, in the same way it would have relied on that determination when that member was living in Vogel House but had a home in Addington, or when Mr Goff had a home in Wellington but was living in a ministerial house in Wellington while he had a home in Auckland, or in the case of any number of Labour Ministers who were in exactly the same position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203042999d7b346d28c1756136badd5ff\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: What precise pecuniary interest test must be met before it is permissible to lease a home from a family trust for use as a ministerial residence: a personal pecuniary interest test or a familial pecuniary interest test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c77af4a0824d88837a8b590cff3cf5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the honourable Minister, I say that this primary question is about primary place of residence, not about matters to do with pecuniary interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af11428552484070b15ff6e223c5e483\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is only if a primary place of residence decision has been taken in a certain way that this question becomes relevant. The two supplementary questions asked by my colleague the Hon Jim Anderton make it relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269292fcb8844428ab033736f7ea64d49\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The dilemma is that the primary question is so precise: \u201CHow is a Minister\u2019s primary place of residence determined?\u201D. Trying to stretch that question to issues of pecuniary interest is stretching things a fair way. I will give the member another chance to try to bring his supplementary question a bit closer to the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e483309bd24e889aa102368bb976db\u0022\u003EHon Pete Hodgson\u003C/span\u003E: In the event of a Minister\u2019s primary place of residence being not in Wellington, what precise pecuniary interest test must be met before it is permissible to lease a home from a family trust for use as a ministerial residence: a personal pecuniary interest test or a familial pecuniary interest test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231f109c4fda74f5dab95a755ec1abc48\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I can elucidate no more on that question than the Prime Minister has in the past 2 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be9c7ec0aa0441b95e462599392a1a1\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table part 2, \u201CIssues of Eligibility for Allowances Based on Residence\u201D, of the Auditor-General\u2019s Parliamentary Salaries, Allowances and Other Entitlements: Final Report of July 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90368fa153549ea83a236fe3db5477d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDocument , by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a285c2cef34507a139f78e9ce23ecc\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you would make it clear to the House as Speaker that it is the Speaker\u2019s role to make such determinations, not the Auditor-General\u2019s role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5cf36710b247b480d02ac8aea3b726\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not strictly a point of order, but the member is correct that the Speaker actually makes those determinations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0668cb6c78e455caa6f8ae1375ce635\u0022\u003EP\u0101ua\u2014Changes to Harvesting Regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edfb00ae1664bca8d1ff9453951063c\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Fisheries: What recent changes to regulations have been made to address the issue of illegally harvested p\u0101ua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002269b3fa3bbcc9478ab192741f6345fdb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b3fa3bbcc9478ab192741f6345fdb6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Changes to the amateur regulations will now make it illegal to hold more than two times the daily limit of p\u0101ua, or the equivalent in meat weight, and that includes in one\u2019s freezer or in one\u2019s international carry-on. This is just another tool for the Ministry of Fisheries to target those who traffick in illegally caught p\u0101ua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b608965c457a4e1499b6814746ca581e\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen regarding this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c719c855d34811a6cd36b646073f12\u0022\u003EHon PHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of support for this regulation has come through the submission process. Fisheries officers will not go looking through anyone\u2019s freezer for no good reason. I need to make that very clear. I want to reassure our recreational fishers that if Ministry of Fisheries officers are knocking on their door and asking to look in their freezer, it is highly likely that they are the target of a sting operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251eee8ab791d49d59e4de830b123b80a\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5c80436a05f48719c777fe320f933f6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000706\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002286d58a9c71ac4a2ab9bfbc016648d105\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286d58a9c71ac4a2ab9bfbc016648d105\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just before lunch we heard the Hon Sir Roger Douglas stand up in this House and tell us that the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill will take money from the pockets of the poor and give to the rich. That is very rich, coming from a man who proposes to raise the level of GST so that he can cut the top personal tax rate. I would like to know how that will help struggling Kiwis who are below or on the average wage. Mr Peachey, who followed Mr Douglas, lectured us on financial literacy, asking why graduates would not pay back an interest-free student loan so they can help the Government. Help the Government? \u201CHelp the Government?\u201D, I say to Mr Peachey. That would be like how he has helped the 70 percent of hard-working, ordinary Kiwis on under $40,000 a year by giving them no tax relief, like how he has helped Kiwis to realise their superannuation dreams by butchering KiwiSaver, like how he has helped Kiwis by cutting their adult and community education courses\u2014and the list goes on. Wherever Mr Peachey is\u2014there he is\u2014I ask him to give me a break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI stand to speak in support of this bill in its third reading, but I am actually quite ambivalent about it. It is a bit of a nothing bill, which will help very few and achieve not much. The fact that we are debating this bill under urgency is a little perplexing, but then again, so is much of the National Government\u2019s agenda. I must admit that some students will take up this scheme, but I think the vast majority of reasons for taking it up will not be financial ones. The reasons for early debt repayment, despite the financial disadvantages of repayment, are varied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI found it interesting that Mr Dunne could not confirm that the number of students who have already expressed an interest in taking up this scheme was over and above the standard number of students who pay back their student loan early already. About 20,000 Kiwis pay back their loan every year. Apparently about 180,000 Kiwis have student loans, and about 1 percent of them have shown an interest in early repayment. I tell members that well over 50 percent of the students who have already shown an interest in paying their loan back this year\u2014about 600, which is the number of votes that we need in order to take the West Coast back, and we will do that\u2014are people who had already decided to pay back their student loan early, anyway. They are putting out their hand for this bonus, which has just come along. I would like to know how many of those people who are paying back their loan early are in the final 2 years of their loan repayments, anyway. Those people will have worked out that this scheme is\u2014for the final couple of years of their repayment schedule\u2014a small window of financial opportunity that will actually make them better off. The Minister cannot even tell the House how many students the Inland Revenue Department has forecast will take up this scheme. I say to the Minister that I would have found that information most helpful and relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI paid off my student loan early, and I did so simply by increasing my mortgage when I bought my first house. But the reason for my debt consolidation was that at that point in time, the interest on my student loan was actually higher than the interest on my mortgage, so debt consolidation actually made sense. But, if I had an interest-free student loan\u2014in fact, I cannot remember; who brought in that student loan legislation. The previous Labour Government brought in the interest-free student loan legislation. Who voted against that interest-free student loan legislation? The National Opposition voted against the interest-free student loan legislation. I ask members whether Mr Peachey was part of that Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022389fbe83853b43b1ab5de1f047c65f3b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Corporate tax cuts!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1ea649ead443e3a8c640a95808dd88\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: National gave corporate tax cuts as well; it is unbelievable! It is just obvious, yet again, that the Labour Party is the party of the students. I ask members to imagine voting against interest-free student loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs I was saying, there are many reasons why someone may pay off an interest-free student loan, but very few of them are actually financial. For some people, there may be a psychological rationale: they just do not like being in debt. But that is not a financial reason. The reason may be one of debt consolidation, but that is not a financial reason. It may be that they have received a gift from their grandmother, who will have to pay gift duty if the amount is over $27,500 per year, by the way. But that route to full debt repayment is not a financial reason, because the investment of such a gift in an interest-bearing account would actually be more beneficial to the recipient. It may be that an employer has given someone a healthy bonus, and he or she wants to pay off an interest-free student loan. But I contend that none of those reasons are financial ones. I think we get the point: paying off an interest-free student loan, as proposed by this scheme, may be taken up by some graduates, but if they do so it will not be because of a financial decision. I contend that the majority of those people would have paid off their loan early, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI would support anything that helped university graduates to get ahead. I worked as the director of strategic development at the Auckland University of Technology, and I wrote a draft business case for the purchase of the Manukau campus, so I do know a bit about the stresses and strains that students and graduates are under in this day and age. Times have changed since the vast majority of the members in this House were students. Student loans have placed a whole different level of stress on graduates these days. Student loan debt has increased at an alarming rate. If I thought that this bill would actually make a difference and help graduates, then it would have my unqualified support. But it does not do that, so I do not give it unqualified support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220a94cc4776434ef9acd49ddccfec6489\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291e8e6d4aaa54c53995ff56348cbde3e\u0022\u003ETaxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022751126c6da5749f192b6c980cc6cf85c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000717\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022aff6c47dd37e48ed91e64958a165412c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aff6c47dd37e48ed91e64958a165412c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the remaining provisions of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3fc4f23e8ef40abaa00d4b0c9b2e316\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that matter. Is there any objection? There appears to be no objection. That course of action is agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b91bb83f20e4dbf8cfeedc241b297ec\u0022\u003EParts 3 to 6, schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b26514e3798b498ba5d461382eb069a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b26514e3798b498ba5d461382eb069a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call in the resumed Committee stage of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill. The Labour Opposition concurs with the Government\u2019s motion to have the remaining parts taken as one question in order to facilitate a more coherent and general discussion. It is also perhaps appropriate to note that, in contrast with some of the other legislation that has been debated in the last few days, this bill genuinely needs urgency for the sake of clarity to taxpayers and proper tax planning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill makes some important changes to taxation law, but in doing so has represented very poor legislative process. It provides for the reform of international tax rules, with the intention of making New Zealand residents with active businesses in overseas markets compete on an equal footing with their competitors. It aligns life insurance taxation rules closer to the accounting treatment of life insurance profits, and at the same time it extends portfolio investment entity rules to life insurers\u2019 savings products. The bill provides for payroll giving to enable the establishment of a flexible system and manageable compliance costs. The taxation of emissions units is provided for\u2014we might say thankfully in the light of recent decisions, given the loss of the cap from the \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe definition of \u201Cassociated persons\u201D is reformed. Tax thresholds are raised to reduce compliance costs for small and medium sized businesses. That was a particular priority of the outgoing Labour Government, which put this bill in place. The tax treatment of relocation claimants and overtime meal allowances for employees is clarified. The bill includes changes to the income tax rules for petroleum mining\u2014a matter much discussed earlier in the Committee stage. It provides for the new film grant, the Screen Production Incentive Fund, and it makes a number of other changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill is being debated under urgency again today. Labour supports the bill, but it is very concerned about the rushed process for the bill. The major Supplementary Order Papers were delivered late, without sufficient time to properly consider them. It is a huge and complex bill; I am advised it is the largest tax bill ever, outside the rewrite legislation. The deadlines were rushed, denying members proper and sufficient time to consider its provisions, and there was a general lack of sufficient time to fully consider the immense levels of detail in the bill. For that reason, the Finance and Expenditure Committee was very reliant on professional tax advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe process was imperfect because of the breadth and depth of the provisions in the omnibus bill, and the select committee therefore had the following to say in its report: \u201CThe size of the bill, and the depth and breadth of the material it covers, have made our consideration more difficult than it might have been otherwise. In trying to meet the report due date for the bill, we and our committee consideration processes have been put under considerable pressure. We do not consider it desirable to put a number of very distinct and significant proposals into one bill simply because they relate to one area of law.\u201D That is reasonably strong language in the formal context, particularly in the context of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s commentary on tax legislation, which is a matter normally reserved for the driest of the dry, as the Minister in the chair, Peter Dunne, will no doubt attest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are several very important substantive areas in the bill. The first that I will mention in summary today is the definition of \u201Cassociated persons\u201D. There was extensive discussion of these provisions, and right around the select committee there was an agreement that we had a common aim: to ensure that genuinely associated persons were covered so that they could not evade tax, and that the rules be tightened to avoid unintended consequences for those whom the association was tenuous, or who could not have been expected to know about a particular investment or tax liability of a person deemed to be associated. We appreciate the Minister of Revenue\u2019s willingness to discuss those changes through his officials with the committee. I think, and all members of the committee think, that good work was done in that area, and we thank officials for working in detail through those provisions with us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe main bulk of the bill is associated with the international tax rules. It is an incredibly important and complex area, particularly as the world is globalising. As we all know, the factors of production and therefore much of our tax base is becoming more mobile and effectively harder to tax. It is for that reason, amongst many others, that we await with interest the outcome of the Government\u2019s Tax Working Group as we look forward to an ongoing discussion about the optimal balance between different forms of taxation in that regard. This tax legislation modernises the international tax rules, particularly in respect of controlled foreign companies\u2014for example, to \u201Censure that key provisions relating to CFC rules \u2026 were set out clearly in one place in the legislation.\u201D The select committee recommended \u201Ctechnical amendments to the accounting-based active business test for CFCs \u2026 to reduce the cost of applying the test.\u201D It also recommended that \u201Cfor the purpose of the tax-based active business test, consolidation be permitted only when the taxpayer has an income interest of more than 50 percent in each of the CFCs to be consolidated.\u201D The amendments will \u201Callow an active CFC to pay royalties, interest, and rent to an associated CFC \u2026 without the associated CFC having to recognise any passive income only if the CFC and the associated CFC were liable for tax in the same jurisdiction.\u201D So there is some tightening there. There are a number of like rules around controlled foreign companies, which were important for the committee to get its head around and are important to modernise because they reflect the changing nature of business practice in this incredibly globalised environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere was discussion of the taxation of life insurance businesses, and the select committee recommended a number of amendments to make the proposed provisions clearer and more flexible. For example, \u201Call direct and indirect expenditure incurred by a life insurer would be deductible in the shareholder base.\u201D, and \u201Cin relation to non-life insurance policies life insurers are able to claim a deduction for movements in the outstanding claims reserve.\u201D The amendments ensure that \u201Cwhere a life insurer has overpaid tax on the life office base under the existing rules, the overpayments would be carried into the new rules and could be used to satisfy tax liabilities arising on both\u201D. It is fair to say that the committee in closed session also considered in some detail some particular aspects of the rules that applied to particular aspects of the sector. I will not go into the details of that, for obvious reasons, but I simply note that the committee spent considerable time with officials clarifying a matter that was of some interest to some in the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere was an extended discussion, both in the select committee and on the floor of the Chamber, of the tax treatment of petroleum mining. Several members have raised this issue in terms of a taxpayer-specific matter, so I will not repeat the taxpayer-specific element. I will say that the committee wrestled with the need to avoid multinational oil companies ripping New Zealand\u2019s tax base off by literally hundreds of millions of dollars by, for example, attributing to its New Zealand profits the cost of debt incurred in foreign jurisdictions. The Labour Party wants to go on record as supporting to the nth degree the Government\u2019s moves to track this practice down and stop it. Not only is it totally unjustifiable, but it is literally robbing the New Zealand taxpayer and beneficiaries of much-needed revenue. We certainly encourage the Government to pursue the transfer pricing and transfer attribution of cost by multinationals in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EA particular case of the reverse could potentially have been caught inadvertently: a New Zealand company that was investing offshore may have been caught by an unintended, potentially retrospective element if, indeed, it had entered into a contract before the effective date of the announcement of this provision. We are taking the Minister and officials at their word that we will be able to work through in good faith with that taxpayer, on the basis of the common law, a position that reflects the common view of the committee that this was not the primary issue that the provision was designed to solve, and that we were wary, as is longstanding parliamentary practice, of any retrospective element that operated to the detriment of New Zealand business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are many, many pages of detail that I could go through. I have touched upon the main areas of work. There are many others that other members will want to touch on. I will, however, refer to the fact that we got quite a lot of last-minute Supplementary Order Papers. Perhaps because I am a former Minister, I always take a very dim view of officials not providing to the Minister in sufficient time material that then ends up having to come through the Minister to the floor of the Chamber as a Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002290133573d9b54a008435b36c3c1aa815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290133573d9b54a008435b36c3c1aa815\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E At the outset of this debate on the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill I want to make a couple of points. Firstly, this is the resumption of a Committee stage debate, so a number of the measures that the previous speaker, David Cunliffe, referred to have already been disposed of in earlier parts of this debate. But I think he was simply reintroducing our memory to those matters. I want to comment on the point, though, about rushed legislation. I cannot accept his assertion in that respect. I want to place on the record, once more, a little bit of the history. This bill was introduced in July 2008, over a year ago. Because of the intervention of a general election it had not progressed far before the change of Government last November. It has been worked on pretty efficiently by the Finance and Expenditure Committee during the course of this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOne of the issues I was conscience of as the bill was proceeding was that the implementation times for a number of the regimes that it contains\u2014the international tax changes, the changes to life insurance, payroll giving, and there were one or two others as well\u2014were much shorter than they are in the bill at the moment. So rather than the legislation being rushed, I wrote to the select committee recommending that it defer the implementation dates to, in some cases, next year. I did that simply because I wanted to make sure there was sufficient time. One of the reasons I am grateful for this bill being taken under urgency today is that I am getting many inquiries from a number of people seeking assurances that we will stick to this timetable, that the dates that we have amended in the bill will be honoured, and it will not be further delayed. I do not think we can draw a conclusion from that about rushed legislation. We can draw a conclusion about the size of the bill, and I am freely conceding\u2014as I have done before\u2014that this bill, in retrospect, did bite off too much territory. In future we will do things a little differently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on the comment the member made about the associated persons changes, and I was grateful for his intervention on this point. I say to the Committee and to any of the public who are anxious about this provision, that from the outset we were seeking to simply ensure that the law as put in place\u2014in this instance way back in 1973\u2014worked as it was intended to at that time. We were not seeking to broaden the scope or to introduce new definitions or changes to definitions through that mechanism, but simply to ensure that what we thought we had been doing since 1973 was accurately reflected in the law as it stands today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMr Chairman, let me make a quick comment in response to the member about petroleum mining. Again, there are very substantial points of agreement. One of the things that could conceivably happen under this bill\u2014and I am not being taxpayer specific when I make this observation, but certainly to illustrate the point that Mr Cunliffe was alluding to\u2014is that it could well be possible in the future for a company to take advantage of the changes we are making to the international tax rules in terms of the active/passive test, and, therefore, be subject to taxation in the jurisdiction of their location only, and not double taxation in New Zealand. At the same time, have we not changed the petroleum mining law being able to write off the cost of exploration incurred on that offshore jurisdiction against the New Zealand tax base? So the New Zealand taxpayer in that hypothetical situation not only gets no tax but is paying out a tax deduction to that company. That clearly would be wrong under any reasonable assessment of the law, and that is the sort of situation we are trying to guard against. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWith regard to some of the issues that are coming up in the remaining parts of this bill, I draw members\u2019 attention to the amendments to the KiwiSaver Act that are contained in Part 4 of the bill. These relate particularly to the situation that has had some publicity of recent times where a contributor has died intestate, and the difficulty that the family have had in gaining access to the funds that have been deposited in KiwiSaver. This bill corrects that unfortunate situation and has been backdated to the time of the introduction of the KiwiSaver scheme in 2007 and will be a huge benefit to those families who have been suffering as a consequence of the loss of a family member in that situation and being unable to access the funds that they contributed to KiwiSaver while they were alive. I am grateful for the Committee considering and adopting that amendment in the bill. I am also keen, therefore, to see it pass so that those people who are in a state of anguish can have some relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022 data-id=\u00224d7e759d337343be8abbfceca3ee9f6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d7e759d337343be8abbfceca3ee9f6e\u0022\u003EPESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Much has been said about the size of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I concur with the remarks of the honourable Minister of Revenue about the work done by the officials. We commend that work, as well as the work done by the Minister, who in a letter to the Finance and Expenditure Committee stated quite clearly that changes would be put in place in terms of the timing of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThe bill addresses a number of areas for change. It provides for the reform of international tax rules. Among other measures, it introduces a tax exemption for foreign active income of controlled foreign companies\u2014the CFCs, as they have been referred to in this debate already. It also addresses aligning life insurance taxation rules more closely with the actual profits of term life insurance businesses. But the area that I would like to discuss is the introduction of the voluntary payroll giving scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EWe all know that New Zealanders are generous with their money and their time. Nielsen Media Research found out that 75.4 percent of the New Zealanders surveyed supported the community and voluntary sector in 2007. They supported that sector either by making committed or ad hoc donations, volunteering, or through another form of support. The research also indicates that less than one in every five people who donated to charity filed a tax rebate for the donation. Payroll giving represents an opportunity for those who give to gain an immediate tax benefit, thus eliminating the need to file a rebate annually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EFollowing the introduction of similar legislation and a Government-initiated campaign to promote payroll giving, the level of participation in payroll giving in Australia doubled. An initial target that has been suggested is that New Zealand aim to achieve a level of participation comparable to that of Australia. I suggest that we aim to surpass the level of participation in Australia by 2011, the year of the Rugby World Cup, when we will also surpass Australia on the rugby field. From research conducted by the Tindall Foundation, it predicts that unless the Government and business put significant effort and resource into promoting and encouraging similar participation in this country, payroll giving is unlikely to gain traction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EPayroll giving is about enabling employees to receive the benefit of payroll donations each pay day in real time, and without the need to have donation receipts. People who make donations other than through payroll giving can continue to claim a charitable donation tax credit at the end of each tax year. A main concern raised by the Finance and Expenditure Committee was the risk that employers could default in transferring payroll donations to the chosen donee organisations, especially in insolvency situations. To address that concern, the committee recommended a number of changes to the bill. They included an amendment to schedule 7 of the Companies Act 1993 to confirm that when an employer goes into liquidation and has not passed on employees\u2019 donations to donee organisations, the return of those donations to the employees will have the same priority as the payment of their unpaid wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219bcf2ff-a193-4361-9072-813a4e36683c\u0022\u003EThat was a short cameo on payroll giving. We have made a number of other, more in-depth changes to our tax regime. The bill supports the emphasis this Government is putting on tax reform and tax policy. It is part of a series of tax reforms that will continue into the future of this term of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00221034a891b8914cdca00a0a2aef80ccf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221034a891b8914cdca00a0a2aef80ccf6\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I say to Mr Lotu-Iiga that I wish we could get one thing clarified. First and foremost, the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill was introduced by the previous Labour Government on 2 July 2008. It is not a National bill; it was not part of National\u2019s agenda for tax reform. I think we need to get that clear once and for all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, is right; this bill has had quite a long process. As I have mentioned, it was introduced on 2 July last year. The reason it has taken so long is perhaps that Parliament dissolved for the general election, and then we were back into it. But having said that, I also understand the need for urgency on the bill, because business tends to operate best in an environment of certainty. The sooner this bill is passed, the greater the level of certainty there will be for a whole range of businesses. So I support the urgency on this bill in the Chamber today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, we support this bill. We have already voiced our concern\u2014I think every speaker has voiced his or her concern\u2014not about the rushed process but about the size of the bill, coupled with the amount of time we had to spend on it. We are concerned about\u2014and my colleague David Cunliffe talked about this\u2014the late nature of the Supplementary Order Papers, which were tabled without sufficient time to properly consider them. Supplementary Order Papers 34 and 35 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne were released on 4 August and 25 August respectively. This is a huge and complex bill\u2014most tax legislation is complex\u2014but at 825-odd pages that really made things very tight. There was a general lack of sufficient time to fully consider the whole immense detail of the bill, but we did our best. As has been mentioned, we relied on the officials and our consultants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI will talk about the amendments to the Income Tax Act. In 2007 around 3,500 pages of New Zealand tax legislation were enacted. This legislation included the Income Tax Act of 2007. At 2,800-odd pages, that Act represents the fourth and final stage of a project begun in 1994 to rewrite income tax law in plain-language style. As the length of time taken to complete this task shows, this rewrite was an ambitious and aspirational, but absolutely necessary, task. I know that sometimes the words \u201Ctax legislation\u201D and \u201Cplain English\u201D in the same sentence are a bit of an oxymoron, but this is the way things work out in tax legislation. This task was a definite step forward in terms of New Zealand tax law. But as an inevitable consequence of the rewriting process, there was a temporary but large increase in the number of remedial amendments necessary in order to maintain the tax law in sound working order. This increase was in part because very few remedial amendments had been enacted since December 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EOf the remedial amendments proposed, approximately 115 are typically of a very minor nature. They are intended to correct matters such as incorrect numbering and cross-referencing, printing errors, the use of incorrect terminology, punctuation issues, and omitted words. Despite perceptions and beliefs to the contrary, even tax officials and drafters make the occasional mistake. I think we would agree that making 115 drafting errors in 3,500 pages of legislation, or in the 2,800-odd pages of the Income Tax Act 2007, is not a bad effort overall. Other amendments in this bill are of a less clerical nature, but arise from both rewrite issues, include submissions to the Rewrite Advisory Panel, and from clarification of policy in business as usual drafting. These 160-odd amendments affect provisions in the Income Tax Act 2007, the Income Tax Act 2004, the Tax Administration Act 1994, the KiwiSaver Act 2006, as the Minister has alluded to, and the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act, amongst other Acts. Of these amendments, 30 issues were referred to the Rewrite Advisory Panel for resolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIn addition to the 119 remedial amendments included in the bill at its introduction, the officials recommended that the Finance and Expenditure Committee propose the inclusion of about 150 further remedial amendments, the need for which had been discovered since the introduction of this bill. As that shows, a lot of work went into this legislation, at the officials level, at the Finance and Expenditure Committee level, and at the consultant and advisory level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESeveral Acts that amend tax Acts have been enacted since the bill was introduced to Parliament. They include the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading) Amendment Act 2008, the Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Act 2008, and the Taxation (Business Tax Measures) Act 2009. A number of the cross-references in the bill need to be adjusted to take into account the changes made by those Acts. The officials recommended that the committee include such amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022864097a72bed4e518cccaf67cf8a3788\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022864097a72bed4e518cccaf67cf8a3788\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the continuation of the Committee stage of the very large Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill. I acknowledge members giving leave to combine the debate on the remaining parts of this bill in order to facilitate its completion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMuch was said about the bill by speakers when we last addressed it, and I am sure we will hear some more points now and in the third reading. We are speaking about Parts 3 to 7, which include clauses 518 to 629, and the title. They cover about 140 pages, which points to the substantial nature and breadth of the bill. We must also note that a large part of the original bill is no longer in this bill, because it formed part of the small to medium sized enterprise tax recession assistance bill, the Taxation (Business Tax Measures) Bill, which we passed in March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would make the point that we have an additional Supplementary Order Paper\u201434. I understand that it consists of simple remedial drafting changes to the substantial legislation, and I would be interested to have an assurance that, in fact, that is the case. I fully accept that it has no policy change from what the select committee saw and what many, many submitters spent much time on at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI should acknowledge, as this will probably be my final time speaking in the Committee stage, the assistance of the Minister of Revenue, officials, and members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, both in the previous Parliament and in this Parliament, in facilitating this bill going through to at least this stage. Cooperation was extended in many, many areas. I acknowledge that other members have recorded that for Hansard, and I appreciate that. I also acknowledge that at times the select committee had to begin meetings early and finish late to facilitate the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister spoke earlier he spoke about the need, the commercial imperative, to provide some certainty for the many, many sectors of business affected by the bill, from insurance to payroll, to you name it\u2014to the Inland Revenue Department itself\u2014as to when certain parts of this wide-ranging bill would be implemented. I agree totally with what the Minister said. The commentary states that the Finance and Expenditure Committee was not particularly pleased with the breadth of the bill, with its wide-ranging nature, and all the commentators also picked up on that. But that does not mean that the bill did not go through the due process. I note that many of the discussion documents that led to this bill, particularly those about some matters that have already been raised in the debate, actually appeared under the previous administration\u2014as far back as 2006 and even 2007. The legislation was introduced in July 2008, I think, it came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee in September or October 2008, and we picked it up with a vengeance early this year as Parliament got back to normal behaviour, if you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThat was just a quick note to acknowledge all those who have assisted with the bill, to reiterate the points made in the commentary, and also to put on record for those who pay strict attention to the commentary of the bill not to misinterpret the commentary or to try to put words into it. The commentary speaks for itself and it is not meant to be anything other than the thoughts of the committee at that time. Other speakers have alluded to some of the issues in and around that. On that note, I look forward to the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u00229dbe29adee1c4bcb83f8df9a98e0982b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dbe29adee1c4bcb83f8df9a98e0982b\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the bill and wish to affix my contribution on the provisions in relation to remedial amendments in the bill, in particular the clauses concerning KiwiSaver. The bill introduces a number of remedial amendments to the KiwiSaver scheme, and in the Finance and Expenditure Committee we spent a certain amount of time hearing submissions and deliberating on them. A number of submissions are no longer relevant, due to the removal of the employer tax credit. What is interesting are the issues surrounding the definition of member credit contribution in section YA 1 of the Income Tax Act 2007 and in section OB 1 of the Income Tax Act 2004. Officials are of the view that the definition should be amended to exclude the $1,000 kickstart payment and the member tax credit. This would have the effect of preventing members from double-dipping, which would occur if the Crown contributions were included in the calculation of the member tax credit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EA technical issue arose in relation to whether the amendment would be intended to be retrospective or prospective. If it should be retrospective, the recalculation of the member\u2019s accounts would be required. As the independent specialist adviser Therese Turner pointed out in her report, recalculation of a member\u2019s accounts would be required. Given that some members may have already withdrawn from the scheme, that would be problematic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EI cited this relatively small part as an example to show how important it is for us to work together to bring our tax law up to date, which is the main purpose of this bill in general, and to provide some certainty to make the relevant clauses operative. It is particularly so to the 1.1 million New Zealanders who have signed up to the KiwiSaver scheme. I congratulate the Hon David Cunliffe on taking the initiative for the multiparty banking inquiry by the Labour, Green, and Progressive parties. There are two major concerns; I cited this one because the savings concern is particularly relevant to what we are talking about now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ETwo major concerns were expressed by submitters across the board. The first concern was that banks have grown faster than the surrounding economy, indicating that wealth has transferred from the trading economy to the non-trading economy, which has made it harder for us to grow a healthy, sustainable economy. The second concern, which is relevant to this bill, is our low savings rates and spending habits of New Zealanders. Unfortunately, the Government\u2019s only response so far to the low savings rate is to cut KiwiSaver. The KiwiSaver scheme introduced by the Labour Government was designed to lift private sector household savings in New Zealand. By cutting the incentives for KiwiSaver the National-led Government is decreasing the amount that ordinary Kiwis will be able to save. The Government\u2019s plan betrays the over 1.1 million New Zealanders who have already signed up, and the Government\u2019s move has effectively taken away opportunities from future generations. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc5f3b7e6ae4398ab030dea03c886c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc5f3b7e6ae4398ab030dea03c886c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call in the Committee stage of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill, which Labour supports. I will deal with a couple of technical matters for a start. An important change has been made through this legislation to the treatment of petroleum mining revenue, and I endorse the steps that the Minister of Revenue started in the previous Government and has continued in this Government to clarify that the petroleum mining losses that are incurred by a foreign branch of a company cannot be offset against petroleum mining income earned from New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETo put that in perspective, New Zealand has become quite prospective for oil and gas. The price of oil and gas is a lot higher than it was a few years ago, and some of the traditional sources of oil either have become risky for development companies or have been depleted in their reserves. Although as a country and a world we need to transition away from fossil fuels for environmental reasons relating to climate change and also for energy security reasons, it is clear that for some time to come the world will use petroleum products and that they are valuable. It is clear that it is in New Zealand\u2019s interests that where we have some of those reserves we use them, rather than import from Saudi Arabia or somewhere like that. That adds to our wealth as a country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand we do not have a Government-owned oil and gas sector. A lot of overseas countries do\u2014for example, Saudi Arabia; most of Norway\u2019s exploration and recovery of oil is done by a State-owned company. If a country does that, of course, the returns from the oil that go through that State-owned company benefit the country, and the tax rules are not so important because the profit is earned for the country through the State-owned company. But in New Zealand we do not approach oil and gas that way. We leave it to private enterprise companies\u2014some of them are owned by State-owned companies from overseas, actually\u2014to explore for, find, and extract petroleum products in New Zealand. Recently they have been successful. One of those successes has been the Tui Area oilfield off Taranaki. Many millions of barrels of oil have been extracted from it, and that has benefited the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe benefit to the New Zealand economy comes from two sources. One is the royalty that is charged on the recovered oil. That royalty is quite small. Indeed, I wonder whether there is any royalty on oil. I cannot recall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6076566cef448898f583a5798cbe913\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b4a7877da6241ee8888fff8442c63fd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is a royalty on oil, as there is on precious metals. A royalty is recovered on the oil, but the main profit for New Zealand is the taxation on the profits of the oil company. Those profits need to be properly taxed in New Zealand. Oil companies have been saying that they will offset against their New Zealand oil-based income, expenses that do not relate to New Zealand. It is as simple as that. They have been trying to say that they will deduct those costs in New Zealand that are incurred overseas. Actually, I suspect that if we got to the bottom of it, we would find that some of what they deduct overseas is being deducted again in New Zealand. It is very hard for us to tell, because we cannot see into the detail of those overseas transactions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis legislation makes a very important change to our law by saying that the only costs that can be deducted by oil companies for tax purposes against their oil revenues in New Zealand are the expenses that they incur in exploration and development in New Zealand. It does not have to be from the same well, but it has to be in New Zealand. That is a good change, and I express my support for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere is a possible problem with this change in that we have created a problem for some increasingly successful New Zealand - based companies that are exploring overseas, including Greymouth Petroleum, which is now working in Chile. That company says that this change is contrary to its interests. I understand that we have had advice from the officials to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that they do not think that is necessarily the case, but none the less this issue needs to be monitored. I am sure it will be monitored by those affected, who will lobby their members of Parliament if they think that they can prove their case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI will talk briefly about a couple of other things. Firstly, I will talk about the GST treatment of emission units. That provision was originally in this bill. This bill had a slower passage than the emissions trading legislation that was passed last year, and that provision does not now need to be passed because, of course, we already have an emissions trading scheme. We have an emissions trading scheme that is rational, that is economically effective, that will not drive industry out of New Zealand\u2014contrary to the claims made by some members of the Government\u2014and that will reduce emissions so as to benefit New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhy do we have that scheme? Well, New Zealand already has an obligation under the Kyoto Protocol to take responsibility for its emissions above 1990 levels. After the next version of that agreement, which we hope will be agreed to at Copenhagen or thereafter, New Zealand\u2019s obligation will be tougher still. We will have to reduce our emissions substantially below 1990 levels. There are two or three ways we do that in the economy. One is through education, which is a good thing to do. Another way is through regulation, and that is also a good thing to do, in parts and where necessary. But if we do it all through regulation we end up having to regulate thousands of different transactions through the economy, all of which have an effect on emissions. To do it through regulatory intervention becomes very complex and administratively expensive, in that it becomes a large compliance cost and annoying for members of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAn emissions trading scheme changes the relative cost of doing business. It changes the economics of producing high-intensity goods or services and makes doing that relatively more expensive than it is to produce low-emission goods or services. Through that scheme we change the productive base of New Zealand over time. It takes a long time, but we have to start. Through that we gradually change our economy\u2014and other economies in the world are starting to do this too\u2014away from activity that causes emissions towards activity that reduces emissions. Emissions will go down sustainably. That is what the effect of the current emissions trading scheme would be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFrom a policy point of view, the effect of that scheme in New Zealand is attained by a cap on the number of free units that we give away to people. Some people are exposed to competition from markets overseas that are not properly pricing emissions. It is very proper that we protect those industries against closure by saying that they have a base level of free emissions that they do not have to pay for. At the moment it is 90 percent of their 2005 emissions, so they are required to pay for only 10 percent of their 2005 emissions. That will not drive people out of business. The current scheme does not allow people in the industry sector to increase their emissions above 90 percent of their 2005 emissions, because to do that would make New Zealand poorer. They might make $1 profit at the margin, but the country would suffer a $25 loss at the margin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe amendments that are currently being proposed by the National Government will actually make New Zealand poorer and will make the scheme less efficient economically, and they are to be criticised. They have been brought here because the M\u0101ori Party has said that it will support legislation to soften the scheme, having said just a week ago that it would support only legislation that would toughen it. That is an act of a word that I cannot say in this Chamber. It is either that or it is abject incompetence. Those members may think that they can justify it on the basis of the one or two shekels that they have received from the National Government, but I cannot see why they would have sold out their interests for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the other provisions in this enormous taxation bill, there are a lot of things in here, but I am somewhat surprised not to see anything in it fixing the terrible mistake made by the National Government in abolishing the research and development tax credit. That mistake has not been fixed by this bill. This bill runs to 800 pages, yet it does not fix up the abolition of the research and development tax credit. The undermining of KiwiSaver\u2014another revenue measure that used to give tax credits to employers for the contributions made by employers\u2014has not been fixed by this bill. Employers still have to face that cost under the new, shrunken scheme without any support from the Government, whereas previously they received a tax credit for it. With regard to the amount of the tax advantage for participants in KiwiSaver, the generosity of the tax credits available to employees who are saving through the scheme has been halved. That has not been fixed by this bill. Those are two glaring anomalies. Neither does the bill make good on the promise that National won the Treasury benches on\u2014that is, that we can have everything we had under Labour plus tax cuts. That promise was never affordable. It has been reversed, but once again this bill does not fix that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00225fc3d787191d458ca839f05bb7f5af21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fc3d787191d458ca839f05bb7f5af21\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take another call in the Committee stage of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill. It has been some time since we last debated the bill\u2019s Committee stage and since I last spoke. We have heard other speakers talk today about the comprehensive and extensive nature\u2014perhaps too extensive\u2014of the bill, and there certainly are a number of important elements within it. I hope my contribution is able to add more to the wisdom in this debate than the contribution of the member who has just resumed his seat, the Hon David Parker, who held up the bill and said there was a lot in is. I thank Mr Parker very much for that in-depth analysis of this 823-page bill. Yes, there is a lot in it; he got that quite right. I hope to talk in a little more detail about some of the matters in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EInternational taxation and life insurance are two of the big component parts of this bill, but a number of smaller aspects have been a little overlooked in the debate, due to the comprehensive nature of the bill and the big elements in it. One that I will touch on, because I do not believe it has been mentioned in the debate thus far, is the provisions around stapled stock. Stapled stock is not something that is discussed widely outside tax and business circles, so I will take a moment to explain what I mean by that phrase. Stapled stock is a set-up that companies often use whereby debt securities\u2014debt instruments\u2014are attached to equity instruments sold by that company. We have seen that this structure can be used to enable companies to pay moneys to shareholders that would otherwise be classed as dividends, and to call it interest, thereby giving themselves quite a substantial tax advantage through the interest deductions that the company gets, although the money ends up in the same place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThe bill set out to say that for that sort of stapled stock arrangement issued after 25 February last year, all the payments were eligible to be treated as dividends, as if the entire payment related to the shares, as if the entire security was a share. That is an important part of ensuring that there is fair treatment of those moneys, and that companies cannot use that sort of structure to effectively avoid tax. The date of 25 February 2008 is important. As far as we know, at the time when this rule change was announced no major NZX companies had stapled stock in existence. We also know that a number were certainly looking at doing that, so it was a step that had to be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EAs the bill proceeded through the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we looked at this matter in a little depth. We recommended some important changes to make sure that there was not excessive overreach in terms of these provisions. Among those we looked at was ensuring that debt stapled to a wide range of fixed-rate shares could still be treated this way as a valid instrument. We also thought it was important and appropriate that people with small, closely held companies\u2014family companies and the like\u2014where this sort of arrangement came about through a shareholders\u2019 agreement, had the freedom and flexibility to enter into that arrangement. We were working to ensure that we protected the tax base against the inappropriate claiming of interest deduction as a way to avoid paying tax that would otherwise be payable, but without going into the realm of unnecessarily cutting down the flexibility and the options open to companies to arrange their affairs. As I said, what we will now have under these rules will enable all the payments to be treated as if they are shares, all the payments to be treated as dividends. But when we talk about company thin-capitalisation rules, with those stapled instruments the debt component can still be treated as debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EIn respect of that particular provision, it highlights that there is quite a lot in the bill beyond the title provisions of international tax and life insurance. Those are the leading ladies in the bill, but there are a number of quite important lesser issues that the select committee spent an awful lot of time working through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EAt this stage I take a moment to thank Craig Foss for his chairmanship of the select committee. It was a difficult process to work through the bill but the committee worked very well. All the committee members should be acknowledged for their contribution to the work on the bill. Certainly, the officials spent a lot of time with us. I commend the Minister of Revenue for not only introducing the bill last year but also having the political tenacity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519ef640ed6543569c40b96fef4cb899\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Masochism!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224590ed649c974bbfb188adee54e191db\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014perhaps it was\u2014to still be here shepherding the bill through the House, despite a change in Government. It is no small piece of work on his behalf, and on the behalf of our committee, as well. It is an excellent piece of work, and I think it makes real progress in ensuring that out tax regime is brought up to speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022f27e17e1caee410bacda899d8498af6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f27e17e1caee410bacda899d8498af6f\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E First and foremost, even though we are debating the Committee stage\u2014and are about to go into the third reading\u2014in urgency, I think it is important to note that after the first reading of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill it went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Select committee examination is quite an important part of the legislative process. Some of the other bills before the House recently have not gone to a select committee. Therefore, the public does not have any right or ability to present submissions on them. In terms of process, this bill followed a very good process. The select committee received and considered 78 submissions and heard 51 oral submissions. As members can imagine, they were on some very complex areas of tax law. Reading those submissions and doing the background reading on the oral submissions was quite onerous, and that is what I think a lot of members mean when they say that there was quite a tight time constraint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIt seems a while since we mentioned one of big aspects of this bill, and that is associated persons, which I would like to talk about. Amy Adams is right; this bill is about more than international taxation, life insurance, and remedial matters. This bill covers a whole raft of provisions and a whole raft of changes to the actual tax system. It is the largest tax bill, apart from the rewrite, to come before the House. Let us talk about the definition of \u201Cassociated persons\u201D. This part of the bill received much consideration from all members, and resulted in many reams of paper spitting out a whole lot of judgments from officials, consultants, and advisers. We wrestled with the risk that by relaxing the rules the resulting law might not catch people who should be caught by an associated persons rule. We all acknowledge that the implementation of this provision will be very important, and the ongoing supervision and monitoring by officials will also be important. Because it is a complete rewrite, we may be back in this House considering amendments if it does not look good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe committee proposed amendments that aimed to reduce uncertainty, which is what tax legislation should be about, and to narrow the scope of the proposed test to exclude truly arm\u2019s-length transactions. The amendments included narrowing the scope of the tripartite test and excluding certain relatives from it. An example was given of parents who divorce, the father marries again, and the woman he marries has a son from another relationship; that relationship would have been caught before. We wanted to make sure that those quite tenuous relationships were excluded, and to create certainty. We created an additional exception test for relating companies, we recommended that the test apply not only for the purpose of land provisions, we excluded charitable organisations from the test, and we created an exception for certain employee trusts and an exception for partnerships. As I said, the associated persons section took up quite a lot of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI would also like to talk about international tax rules. I take the Minister of Revenue\u2019s point that some of these provisions had been debated and discussed in the earlier Committee debate, but that was a while ago and I think it is worth reiterating them. This area was incredibly complex and deserved a lot of attention. Well, it received a lot of attention, but it probably deserved a little more attention. We quite quickly got down to layers of complexity that reflect the ongoing game of poacher versus gamekeeper. I think we all understood that in terms of the global economy and global competitiveness New Zealand\u2019s international tax regime needed to be amended, and that was what the bill did, but many private entities, of course, hire very, very expensive\u2014the best\u2014tax lawyers and advisers to ensure their tax is minimised. I think it was Dr Michael Cullen who said that if as much time and energy went into creating wealth in this country as go into looking at ways to avoid tax, we would be a very wealthy country. The Crown\u2019s officials are required to stay one jump ahead whilst also maintaining the integrity of the tax system, and making sure that New Zealand retains its global competitive advantages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe bill strikes a reasonable balance between the need to remain internationally competitive and the need to provide clear rules that allow the integrity of the tax base to be preserved. The committee ensured that key provisions relating to controlled foreign company rules were set out in one place in the legislation, making the rules more accessible. We recommended that technical amendments to the accounting-based active business test for controlled foreign companies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to a proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 34 in his name to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (29) \u201Cand (5)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce99ecfa54ad443b8f17e9e62dad94b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000789\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 34 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunn, the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 35 in his name, and the following amendments in his name to clause 2, be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000790\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (21) \u201C397\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000791\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (27) \u201C421(2) and (4)\u201D and substitute \u201C421(2)\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c30cdbb81607484d8a13db4763139f65\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224a267549fa7d448f9fdab870eb7e797b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 3 to 6, schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 3 to 6, schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000792\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000793\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fa113fc27374547b57629c3ef1026ee\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00229cfe289aa39845dca118f261983642f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cfe289aa39845dca118f261983642f4\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time. The bill introduces a number of major business tax reforms, the most far-reaching of which is the reform of the tax rules relating to the offshore income of our controlled foreign companies. Our present system taxes the offshore income of those companies as it is earned, and it is being replaced by one that exempts that active income. The result will be better alignment of our international tax rules with those of comparable companies\u2014Australia, in particular. That will mean removing a taxed cost for our controlled foreign companies that similar companies in many other countries do not face. These changes are intended to encourage businesses with international operations to remain in New Zealand and to enable them to compete more effectively overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EModernisation of the tax rules relating to the life insurance business is another important reform that the bill introduces. The rules are being updated to ensure that the term insurance business is taxed on actual profits, as other businesses are taxed, and that the tax benefits of the portfolio investment entity rules are also available to people who save through life products. The bill also introduces the new payroll giving system for charitable donations, which will operate through the PAYE system. It is an initiative from United Future and it means that employees who donate through their payroll will receive the tax benefit of their donations each pay day without having to present donation receipts. The initiative has been warmly welcomed throughout the charitable sector and was generally applauded during the Committee of the whole House stage. On a similar theme, the bill also clarifies the tax treatment of volunteer reimbursements and honoraria to make it easier for volunteers and community organisations to comply with their tax obligations and to reduce their compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOther important reforms in the bill that attracted some attention during the Committee stage include changes that strengthen and rationalise the definition of \u201Cassociation persons\u201D in the Income Tax Act as a revenue protection measure. These measures are generally used to counter tax practices that could undermine the intent of the law because of the closeness of the relationship of the parties involved. The bill also seeks to clarify the law to ensure that the employer payments for relocation, overtime, and meal allowances remain tax free. These changes are designed to remove longstanding uncertainty and to simplify the law, which will save time and money for everyone involved, and generally allow people to carry on doing what they have always been doing but now in accordance with the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also updates the petroleum mining tax rules in order to remove possible disincentives to further investment in oil and gas exploration and development in New Zealand. As a revenue protection measure it gives effect to changes to ensure that New Zealand receives its proper share of the benefits from our petroleum mining industry, which is growing rapidly. The point was made during the Committee stage by more than one speaker that the somewhat perverse situation at the moment could allow the case where a company could, in effect, offset all of its expenditure offshore against the New Zealand tax base, and for various reasons pay very little tax in New Zealand. The net effect of that situation could be that the New Zealand taxpayer is simply subsidising offshore exploration. That is a very peculiar situation, and we are closing it off. We are actually the only country in the world, as I understand it, that currently has a provision of that type in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis speech is a brief summary of the major reforms that are proposed in the bill. There are a number of other changes that I will not go into, because I do not have time this afternoon. Various Supplementary Order Papers have been added to the bill since I introduced it in July 2008. One of the members during the latter stages of the Committee stage made reference to stapled stock; we introduced a Supplementary Order Paper in August of last year to ensure that stapled stock instruments are treated as equity for tax purposes. That measure is designed to prevent a loss to the revenue through the increased use of that mechanism. Earlier this year, in August, I introduced another Supplementary Order Paper, which made a number of remedial changes, as well as other taxpayer-friendly policy changes, to the bill. In that latter category are specific measures that apply to a small number of taxpayers, and that needed to be legislated for as soon as possible. One of those measures that I should refer to relates to finance company workouts. A slight wording change is required to ensure that the law also applies to compromises not done under the Companies Act. That adjustment will be made in later legislation, and once enacted will apply from the 2008-09 income year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that the bill had a number of interrelated aims: to help New Zealand - based companies compete more effectively overseas, to update tax law to reflect today\u2019s commercial environment, to clarify legislation to ensure that it works as intended, to protect our revenue base, and to strengthen the country\u2019s culture of charitable giving. It is a long and technically complex bill. It has required an enormous amount of effort on the part of many people who have taken part in its passage through Parliament: the Finance and Expenditure Committee members, the drafters, the policy officials, the submitters, and all of the members of the House. I acknowledge the contribution that all have made to bringing this very big bill to this stage this afternoon. It is a significant point to have reached, and I record my thanks to everyone who has made it possible. On that point I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022987f3ea38ed4419ca1df0205beed72a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022987f3ea38ed4419ca1df0205beed72a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the remarks of the Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne, and I state again at this point in the third reading of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill that the Labour Opposition will be supporting the passage of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI concur with the Minister\u2019s warm remarks to officials. It is very easy for us parliamentarians, as we debate the generalities of the bill, to overlook the amount of detailed consideration that has gone into even just the drafting of its 800-plus pages. Even the remedial Supplementary Order Paper is over 50 pages long, and there are other Supplementary Order Papers, as well. The fact that typographical corrections and changing commas took 50 pages reflects the volume of work involved. It is really extraordinary. Leafing through the bill, I see that every page has its highlighting, underlining, and revision tracks, and every paragraph matters, because millions of dollars\u2019 worth of taxpayer funds rest upon such things. We are highly reliant on the good offices of our very dedicated officials and advisers, and I join with the Minister in thanking our excellent team. The public are so much better off for the quality of work that has been rendered. I hope the officials and advisers will pass on the thanks of all parties in Parliament to their colleagues for this mammoth piece of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHere the out and out bouquets stop. I think it has been well reflected in the discussion that the process of getting the bill to the third reading could have been, on reflection, a little bit better. The Minister reminded us that the first reading of the bill was in August 2008, following its introduction in July. There had been working papers and an extensive consultation with interested organisations in advance of that introduction. The bill was referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and then the general election happened. I do not know whether it is fortunate or unfortunate, but, given the election loss, at least off the good ship Labour Government there were a few lifeboats, and the Minister of Revenue took one of them. He managed to steer the bill on its passage through Parliament. The issue was whether the select committee had the time to do justice to the bill, and I do not think the dedicated members, or even our excellent chairman, Mr Foss, would in their heart of hearts be able to attest that we were able to give the depth of scrutiny that we would ordinarily like to give to every page of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe ambit of the bill, if I might take a minute to reiterate themes that I attempted to summarise late in the Committee stage, is broad. The commentary on the bill states: \u201CWe do not consider it desirable to put a number of very distinct and significant proposals into one bill simply because they relate to one area of law.\u201D The reason is that even a third or a quarter of this volume would have been more than enough for a select committee process to get its head round. Having said that, the bill provides for the important reform of international tax rules, particularly in respect of controlled foreign companies. The bill regularises and extends life insurance taxation rules closer to the accounting treatment of life insurance portfolios, and particularly around modern practices in that respect. It provides for payroll giving; I think parties around the House agree that that is a good way to assist the charitable sector. Taxation of emissions units is provided for. The definition of \u201Cassociated persons\u201D has been tightened up a bit in the Committee stage. The tax treatment of relocation payments and meal allowances has been optimised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere has been significant discussion about the provisions for tax treatment of petroleum mining. Let there be no mistake: in the earlier Committee stage discussion the Labour Opposition strongly supported the Government\u2019s moves to close this egregious loophole, which has been ruthlessly exploited by members of the international petroleum industry. I say shame on them for pushing it that close to the line. When one pushes things that close to the line the line gets moved, because officials and parliamentarians have a responsibility to stand up for the public interest. So I hope there will be a lesson in that to the market. Labour raised the issue of an unintended consequence, or potential unintended consequence. Enough has been said about that issue, except that we will hold the Government to its indication of a willingness for there to be a good-faith process with officials on the basis of the common law position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is incumbent upon me as Labour\u2019s finance spokesperson to say that the country is pressed upon by many serious taxation issues, not all of which are of the technical nature of even the international tax rules contained herein. New Zealand has in the latest month achieved a vast improvement on our current account deficit. It is only 6.6 percent of GDP this month; that is still bad in most people\u2019s books. Our national debt is, in net terms, up to 100 percent of GDP, and nearly 150 percent in gross terms. This country has to deal with some significant issues. In summing this up, I guess Labour has a concern that this bill is a tome of necessary, technical, and somewhat rushed amendments and that this House is not giving its attention to the priority tax matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWhat are those priority tax matters? Well, there was very interesting debate around Budget 2009; there was great reference to the international credit-rating agencies, and the reports, for example, of Moody\u2019s, Standard and Poor\u2019s, and Fitch Ratings. Although they came to different conclusions on whether we needed to have our ratings changed, they all made the same underlying points: they had counted upon the Government\u2019s fiscal prudence not just because it is a good thing in itself but because it was papering over the cracks of an economy that is fundamentally not saving enough and not exporting enough. How does tax policy play into that? Well, we know that we have to innovate more. The rating agencies have made it very clear that we cannot diversify our economy unless we improve our rate of innovation. That means that the tax rules have to better support private sector research and development. The previous Government met the OECD average but private sector research and development was at less than a third. That is why the research and development tax incentives were critical. We cannot see an alternative push from this Government to come up with some better idea. If it, in some way, did not like the way the incentives were crafted, I ask that we have a mature discussion, in the national interest, about how to carry our research community and our primary sector forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESimilarly, although it is not a tax matter, the Government canned the Fast Forward Fund but has not come up with an equal alternative. KiwiSaver in terms of tax matters saw the employer subsidy withdrawn and the Crown subsidy cut in half. There is a tax-related element to those changes: they were done to fund the 1 April tax cuts. Those income tax cuts dropped the top tax rate and changed some thresholds, but the bottom line was that a third of the benefit went to the top 3 percent of earners. The top 3 percent have the lowest marginal propensity to consume and, therefore, the least multiplier effect during the recession. The cuts did not make equity sense, they did not make tax policy sense, and they did not make macroeconomic sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe talked about emissions units in this bill. We have the bizarre spectacle, this week, of a Government that seems to be falling over itself to do some very strange deal with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori at a time when the M\u0101ori Party has given nothing more than a nod to the bill going to select committee with no promise of support after that. That might look like a bad deal. I think that the Government apparently gave the M\u0101ori Party precisely zero in return for that nod, other than indexing benefits, which, if common media parlance is to be believed, were already indexed. The real problem with the emissions trading scheme is that there is no cap on the trade, and that means that the Crown\u2019s exposure to the fiscal loss\u2014the tax loss\u2014alongside that is unlimited. The more the pollution is, the more the tax subsidy will be. That has to be amongst the most perverse taxation effects this House has considered for some time. Finally, of course, the manipulation of the carbon price for different public relations purposes will leave the taxpayer\u2014the fisc\u2014picking up the difference between the cap on the carbon price that is used and the international price. That is a severe exposure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAlthough much in this bill is to be recommended, and although the process could have been better, my final word in this debate is to ask Parliament and to ask the Government to respectfully lift its sights, because this country faces absolutely critical issues for our economic future. Although this bill makes a useful contribution to the modernisation of some tax rules, it has skirted around the fundamentals, just as Budget 2009 did. We look forward to a sensible discussion with the Government about the next steps for our tax system and the contribution it can make to guarantee a prosperous and independent future for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002272350ee1b942474ba12e8c1454d4ec99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272350ee1b942474ba12e8c1454d4ec99\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I was half expecting from the previous speaker, the Hon David Cunliffe, an apology for the state of the economy that we inherited from his previous Government. He started off on tax, but we will come to that. [Interruption] Here we go! The caffeine has kicked in, lunchtime has kicked in on the other side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFrom speeches made in the third reading of this very large Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill, it seems obvious that some members are looking forward to the end of the process of this bill going through the House. I again acknowledge the commitment and the contribution of members throughout most of the debates on the bill. I forgot earlier to make a special mention of the independent advisers to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and their assistance with this bill. Therese Turner did a great job in our committee. The committee depends very heavily on her advice on aspects in and around tax. We used an independent drafting adviser, Mr David McLay. I want to go on record to acknowledge his assistance and drafting expertise. [Interruption] He is no relation of my colleague behind me, Todd McClay. I acknowledge his assistance with this substantial bill, even though we have 50-odd pages of further drafting fixes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMuch of the bill consists of remedial and technical matters, particularly the amendments contained in Supplementary Order Paper 224 and the back sections of the bill, which we talked about in the commentary on the bill. I will quickly touch on the last two speakers\u2019 contributions. The first half of the previous speaker\u2019s speech addressed most of these points, but I reiterate that the interaction between the committee, the Minister, the officials, the Inland Revenue Department, and the private sector around the application dates caused a great deal of angst in many sectors, as I mentioned earlier, and I acknowledge the way that process panned out. Although there was a bit of tension at the time, very good solutions were found. On the changes to international taxation provisions, a quote was given to us saying that the changes remove the \u201Cgrey list\u201D structure that New Zealand has. The previous Minister of Finance said that the \u201Cgrey list\u201D was basically where New Zealand went boldly where no other taxation authority dared to follow. Now we are trying to remedy that situation. The active-passive proposals and other proposals in this bill are very forward looking, and they lock in a more global and outward-looking New Zealand as an exporting nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOne of the other speakers spoke about the life insurance changes just before, but I note that there was a difference in this bill. Going back to the international taxation provisions, given that the bill was so large, and given the assistance we needed to get our heads around a lot of the issues, we inserted a signposting section into the Income Tax Act 2007. That is section EX 18A, inserted by clause 116B of the bill, which is a bit of a road map for the uninitiated who may, for some reason, happen to read the Act. It is a plain language direction as to the intent of that particular clause, which is more than would normally appear in an Act. It will be interesting to see how that pans out in other taxation bills that, I am sure, will come before the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOn the changes to the associated persons provisions, the Minister noted earlier that they were initially born in 1973, I think it was. We had many absurd examples of how people could be associated under the original proposals of the original bill of August 2008. It was pointed out time and time again that the absurd examples could already be used. Common sense prevailed, and the original intent of that 1973 provision has been followed through on and clarified in this bill. I say that with all due respect to our committee and officials, who made some quite fundamental changes to the bill as it appears in that particular part. I acknowledge the work that went into that, because eventually quite a simple test went through, with an on-off switch to test in a pretty quick way whether people are associated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EChanges were made in this bill to the rules on portfolio investment entities to reflect changes that had been made, mostly under the previous administration. Again, the committee made a few changes there. I know that further discussion is continuing on the issues around the rules on film production and Government funding, and I acknowledge the good intent of the Minister and officials in making sure that no unintended mischief has been created. I commend all members following through on the intent of the provisions on payroll giving. I am interested that one party is voting against this bill. I think that is the Green Party, and I thought its members would applaud the provisions on payroll giving, charities, and allowances, and the ones that make it easier to give to charitable causes, whatever they might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI commented earlier on the commencement date. Tax threshold changes were in the original bill, and, as I said earlier, they were picked up from the February legislation on small and medium sized enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI look forward to hearing from other speakers on this taxation bill. I will take only a small amount of time. I am very tempted to respond to the second part of the previous speaker\u2019s speech, as he started to get political, but I think I will just let it lie on the table. I look forward to other speeches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00220f675aa572d846f58d593a00f0b64cd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f675aa572d846f58d593a00f0b64cd7\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill. The irony has not escaped me or members of the Labour team that we are finally passing this bill under urgency, because the bill has a retrospective provision that goes back to 1986. Yes, the Inland Revenue Department has caught up with a legal tax problem that had slipped under the radar for 23 years and remained unamended. It relates to the Parliamentary Service and is deemed to apply from 1 April 1986. It is rather fitting, then, that this bill is included in the urgency motion. As we have discussed, for the first time this week an urgency motion is justified, because it is appropriate to provide certainty to those who will be affected by this bill. There is no doubt that the passing of this legislation will provide that level of certainty to a whole range of industries that demand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI start by reiterating the tests that tax legislation has to meet. There are basically four tests. First and foremost, it has to be effective and it must not hinder growth. Ideally, it should promote growth. It would be a grand bonus if all aspects of this bill, when implemented, would in fact help the long-term sustainability and economic development of our economy, both domestically and on the international scene. It allows us to build on a competitive advantage and, as mentioned, in this day and age of globalisation, a tax bill that meets the international standards is very important. This bill does that. Secondly, there must be equity. This is the question around who bears the burden of taxes. It cannot place an unfair burden on those for whom there is no equal advantage. For example, we cannot be seen to take from Peter to give to Paul. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EOf course I would argue that the Government\u2019s tax cuts for the upper end of taxpayers, and the proposal mooted by the Tax Working Group to raise GST so as to be able to lower tax at the top rate, does not meet this equity test, especially if we extend this test to include social equity, which is something the Labour Party has done with every bill in its 94-year history. In fact, Harry Holland, the first leader of the Labour Party, had a very simple test. He always asked \u201CIs it right?\u201D. Harry Holland realised that if it was right for the people of New Zealand, it would be right for the New Zealand Labour Party. This underlying principle of whether it was right for the people of New Zealand has guided this party long after Harry\u2019s untimely departure from this world, and it will continue to guide the Labour Party under the leadership of Phil Goff, the next Prime Minister of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe third requirement is that any tax legislation has to have fiscal integrity. By this I mean that tax legislation cannot provide incentives for people to restructure their affairs in order to perpetrate tax avoidance. As I mentioned during the Committee stage it was Dr Michael Cullen\u2014who, I think, was the Minister initially in charge of this bill; if it was the Hon Peter Dunne, I apologise to him\u2014who said that if as much intellectual energy, grunt, and capacity went into increasing the productive wealth of the economy that is now directed into perfecting the art of tax avoidance, then we would be a very wealthy nation. I am sure that at some stage we will be back in this House with amendments to this bill. We simply cannot have a bill that is over 800 pages long without the odd error. Goodness knows that the officials, consultants, and even some of the submitters went to extraordinary lengths to ensure that every possible loophole was identified, tested, and closed. But as we all know, and as is testament to Dr Cullen\u2019s comment\u2014and he was in the House a lot longer than any other members present have been or will be\u2014there will be some smart person out there looking to make his or her reputation at the expense of the greater good by looking for a way to rip off the tax system. My message to that person is that we will close these down as soon as they even think about beginning to appear. Tax legislation is an organic beast, and it must be for ever growing and adapting, transforming to meet the requirements of the international and domestic users of our system. This bill is testament to that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe fourth point relates to compliance and administration. Citizens must understand their rights, or it must be relatively simple for citizens to be able to access information that will inform them of their rights. Compliance costs should be kept to a minimum, without compromising the integrity of the system. I refer back to the 800-page income tax rewrite of 2000, which was part of this compliance and administration test. In fact, one of the notable features of this bill is that it introduces significant reductions in compliance costs, and thresholds for a whole range of businesses in the tax system as they apply to small and medium sized enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWe all know that this bill started life as a Labour Government bill. We certainly know that Labour is the party of the small to medium sized enterprise business sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b55a152dd64db08a3dbec80e1ebdc3\u0022\u003ELouise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Since when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077cee1b099344eb87b8b599bddbdcb1\u0022\u003ESTUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: We have only to look back a couple of years. Labour was the only Government in the last 30 years to lower the company tax rates. In fact, the last time a Labour Government lowered the corporate tax rate, every National MP voted against it. How did National MPs go out and sell that to their business constituents? I say once again that Labour is the only Government to have lowered the corporate tax rate in 30 years, and both times every National MP voted against it. It is unbelievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ECompliance and administration is also one of the reasons why there are over 300 amendments to other tax legislation that have arisen out of the rewrite into plain English, and that are now incorporated back into this bill. As mentioned, I know the terms \u201Ctax legislation\u201D and \u201Cplain English\u201D sound rather odd together in the same sentence. However, this is what the Inland Revenue Department has attempted to do, and I think it has done a sterling job. As I said, of course one cannot avoid a certain amount of complexity in a tax bill of over 800 pages, but this has been kept to an absolute minimum whilst ensuring legislative integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EFinally, any tax legislation needs to take into account fiscal implications. By this I mean how much revenue it will bring in, how much it will cost the Government, and the cost-benefit analysis around this whole thing. Obviously, in any tax legislation, let alone a bill of this size, there will be fiscal implications right across the tax base. The Finance and Expenditure Committee, Inland Revenue Department staff, and advisers and consultants endeavoured to quantify these implications and ensure that the benefit to the economy absolutely outweighed any fiscal costs while ensuring any fiscal benefit in some areas met the other four tests around equity, efficiency, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EWhen the select committee approached the deliberation of this bill, we had to take these points into account. I reiterate, however, that due to the size of this bill, the depth and breadth of the material covered, and the time constraints under which the committee operated, it was difficult to give each separate section due consideration, debate, and consultation. However, I believe we did that to the best of our ability. It was difficult, but we did it. The bill that will be passed tonight meets the vital tests associated with any tax legislation, and this is why I very much support its passage into law. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022 data-id=\u00226cfc957db5d844fdb16e4ca5797d73b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cfc957db5d844fdb16e4ca5797d73b3\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E It is quite satisfying to take a call in the third reading of the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill, if for no other reason than that it is good to know we are getting towards the end of it. It has been a big piece of work, as previous speakers have mentioned, and it is obviously very much needed in our system, which I acknowledge is reflected by the fact that it was commenced under the previous Labour Government and is being completed by the National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EListening to the previous speaker, Stuart Nash, highlighted somewhat for me one of the major differences between the Labour Opposition and this National Government. Labour talks a big game when it comes to jobs, the economy, and small to medium sized enterprises. According to Labour members, they understand that side of New Zealand and support it. But the reality is they do not. They can talk about it, but New Zealand knows there is no substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223765040c184645b3994c61c8a108f416\u0022\u003EStuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you supporting this piece of legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ccf7b2f0d24c9c83068b1874e6443f\u0022\u003EAMY ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Nash that that is why he is sitting on that side of the House. Labour members might talk about business, but when the rubber hit the road, it was the Labour Government that sent the productive sector of this economy into 5 years\u2019 worth of recession. I say to Mr Nash that it was 5 years of recession because his Government could not put conditions in place that allowed businesses to grow, that supported enterprise, that supported Kiwis who want to get ahead, and that created jobs. This National Government understands that if we are to lift the living standards of all New Zealanders, and if we are to have New Zealanders employed, we need to get behind business and build a tax system that encourages our businesses to build and grow in New Zealand. That is why the National Government does not waste its legislative time on the Electoral Finance Act and other related rubbish that even Labour members are now apologising for at every opportunity. They hope that if they apologise for long enough, New Zealand will forgive them for the hash the Labour Government made of the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThis Government does not waste its time on those things; this Government is prioritising doing the things that need to be done to build a productive economy that will create jobs and that will ensure every New Zealander has a chance to get ahead. This bill is a part of that. We are looking at our tax system, looking at situations where businesses are not being taxed fairly or appropriately, and looking at situations where our businesses need some taxation help to encourage them to stay on New Zealand shores. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EThere are two parts to this help, and they are about both supporting our productive economy and the New Zealanders who build growth and ensuring that our taxpayers\u2014the hard-working mums and dads of this country who work damn hard to provide a living for their families and who work damn hard to pay money to the Government for it to spend\u2014are supported. We are making sure that life insurance companies will no longer have an unfair tax advantage. That advantage is not fair to people who work hard every day of their lives to pay their taxes. We have reformed the life insurance rules to ensure that life insurance companies are taxed appropriately, and that term insurances are taxed in the same way as every other piece of corporate profit. We are ensuring that international taxation encourages growth and investment in New Zealand, because that is what we need if we are to turn this country round from the mess we inherited from the previous Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dc6c0f88-e781-476d-bca1-d1bf9b69302b\u0022\u003EWe will set up systems for payroll giving. We are addressing a number of tax remedial issues that need to be sorted out. This stuff is not sexy, but it is important to build the economy that this country needs to get out of this global recession\u2014the worst recession we have seen in 50 years. This sort of legislative programme will make New Zealand the country it deserves to be. It is a good bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022 data-id=\u00222da900de3a7b43aca2ac0995de2697a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222da900de3a7b43aca2ac0995de2697a1\u0022\u003ERAYMOND HUO (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In my previous speeches on the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill during the Committee stage, I might have cited inappropriately a catchphrase invented by the oratorically gifted US President, Barack Obama. That catchphrase was \u201Cwee-wee\u2019d up\u201D. The media worldwide was puzzled until 2 or 3 days later when White House spokesman Robert Gibbs shed some light on it, and gave the definition that \u201Cwee-wee\u2019d up\u201D is when people get nervous for no particular reason. He added that \u201CBed-wetting would be probably the more consumer-friendly term.\u201D A bright side of my using that phrase inappropriately in this honourable House was that it may help us to appreciate how important it is for us to have a consumer-friendly version of the bill and to get the basics right. I thank the officials and other independent specialist advisers for their excellent work in helping to transfer lots of heavy, loaded terminology into a user-friendly version when dealing with this huge and complex bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EThe bill was originally introduced on 2 July 2008 by the Labour-led Government. The bill represented the first stage of the Labour Government\u2019s review of our international tax rules, and it has been greatly influenced by extensive consultation with businesses and their advisers. This is a huge and complex bill, nicknamed the \u201CSeptember Bill\u201D. As the Finance and Expenditure Committee noted in its commentary on the bill, \u201CThe size of the bill, and the depth and breadth of the material it covers, have made our consideration more difficult than it might have been otherwise.\u201D As pointed out by some of my colleagues, there was a general lack of sufficient time for members to fully consider the immense detail of the bill. The situation was made worse by the introduction of the large Supplementary Order Papers that had not been referred to the select committee and will not be scrutinised before they are passed into law in this honourable House, which is sitting under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EHowever, Labour supported the bill, and it is appropriate for me to reiterate some major points in its third reading. Firstly, the bill provides for the reform of international tax rules with the intention of allowing New Zealand residents with active businesses in overseas markets to compete on an equal footing with their competitors. Secondly, and what interests me the most, is the underlining philosophy behind the bill, which replaces the current legislation that was put in place in 1991 and 1992. To some extent the important part of the active-passive distinction is whether our country will have an outward-looking taxation system or an inward-looking taxation system. Therefore, the real issue is whether we want New Zealand companies to internationalise, compete, grow, and enhance our export-oriented economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003EHaving said that, we cannot talk about our taxation law without addressing some related issues. The major issue relates to the concerns expressed strongly by our export sectors. Banks have grown faster than the surrounding economy, indicating wealth transfers from the traded economy to the non-traded economy. As the chief executive of the New Zealand Manufacturers and Exporters Association, John Walley, pointed out, we have a whole range of policy settings that shelter the internal economy at the expense of the traded economy. As a result, our economy is on a simplification trajectory that reduces the potential for leverage of creativity, innovation, and value-adding. The opposite trajectory is increased elaboration and sophistication of products and services. The basic upgrade process amplifies and liberates innovation and creativity. As the Hon David Parker said earlier in this House, research and development tax credits are not fixed in this bill. The shocking statistics show that our business expenditure on research and development is one-third of the OECD average. The main disparity between New Zealand and other countries is in the low research and development spending from businesses. Unless we do something about it, it will fail us\u2014the export sector, competitiveness, and other levels of productivity will fail. We urge the Government to reinstate the research and development tax credit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248d9e7fe-3603-456c-bd32-c8d6177395fb\u0022\u003ETo conclude, Labour supports the bill. As I said, it represented the first stage of the Labour Government\u2019s review of our international tax rules. The focus of several of the reforms is on reducing tax costs for businesses. The bill will also bring tax law up to date with today\u2019s commercial environment, ensure legislation is working as effectively as possible, and protect New Zealand\u2019s revenue base. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022 data-id=\u002257946f0806b543d6bf230be2025b3deb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257946f0806b543d6bf230be2025b3deb\u0022\u003EAARON GILMORE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and talk on the third reading of this bill. Everybody has talked about the sheer size of this bill, and the fact of it being intimidating. No doubt it is, but the potential impact on the parts of the economy are equally potentially huge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EI will talk a little bit about my experience with the Finance and Expenditure Committee on this bill, given that I am a late arrival to the committee, and a late arrival to this bill. As the virgin member of this committee, I was deflowered by this bill. I must admit to being quite shocked when I was given this bill amid taking over from the now senior whip, Chris Tremain. He gave me a file that was about 3 feet thick, and said: \u201CHere you go. Enjoy.\u201D I must admit, being given the bill and having 24 hours to get my head around it was an interesting experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EI will talk a little bit about some of the positive aspects of this bill, because everyone has been talking about the negative issues. There are some really neat positive aspects. I will touch on two of them in particular. One is around the petroleum mining regime changes. Most people do not seem to understand that petroleum mining last year, in 2008, was our third-biggest export market. We exported $3 billion worth of petroleum products. That put petroleum exports third behind dairy and meat. Many people are surprised by that. This bill has some changes that bring in some new incentives to allow petroleum explorers to be more creative in their expenditure, and that would allow them to spend a little bit more money and effort to drill in New Zealand. That has the potential to make New Zealand incredibly wealthy. We are very lucky and blessed in New Zealand to have the potential to put money into some of our natural resources, such as oil, and maybe find resources off the coast of the South Island, particularly in Canterbury in the South Island, that might amount to billions of dollars. If this bill goes a little way towards that, I think that is a really good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I want to quickly touch on is one that has not been mentioned in the Committee stage or during the other readings. That is the change to the GST treatment of loyalty points. Anybody can have a Fly Buys card, a BP rewards card, an Automobile Association rewards card, or whatever. This bill has some changes to the GST treatment of loyalties schemes. That might not mean much to many people sitting in the House today, but to the average punter it will. My mum, for example, was very excited when I explained to her that she might get a few extra points because the GST treatment on the loyalty points will change. That will mean that those companies that currently account for loyalty regimes, such as our Fly Buys and Air New Zealand points, will have a much better situation and a lot less cost in terms of administering their schemes. We are a Government that is about reducing administrative costs and having more flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EI will touch on a couple of other aspects that this bill deals with. It contains a complicated set of things that do not link together very well, and that has made it quite difficult for people to get their heads around it. Again, many people have mentioned how well the officials have done to put such a complicated set of disparate subjects together in a bill and make it work. I think that many Opposition members have spoken on this bill. They talked about Labour introducing this bill and National carrying it on. I do not really care about that. I care about what we have done collectively. We have put in place a bill that will, in parts of New Zealand, reduce some tax complexity, and that has to be a really good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbe3f87c-849c-4eee-84cc-119edeb1a681\u0022\u003EI also quickly comment\u2014looking at the time tonight\u2014that we have a number of issues to talk about, but many people want to get to a couple of functions. We will soon be blessed by having the great Richie McCaw, the All Blacks, and the Wallabies here. I know that is not the subject of this bill, but I look forward to being able to go there. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e0fc19c0db314a0dbffb2baa89d616a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance, and Remedial Matters) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b0504514dae438f9118ae07f81d027c\u0022\u003EImmigration Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022789d33a9447a41c8b072538d920a6fa3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc57d53803734fa0ade0a2ee40a682b4\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u0022e279ddccfa97412e86a49eb01593bc03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e279ddccfa97412e86a49eb01593bc03\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It has taken quite some time to come to the Committee stage of the Immigration Bill. This is very important legislation that, I know, is very much welcomed across the Chamber. There is a time to be gracious in debate and there is a time to be aggressive with the Opposition. I say on this occasion that this bill has had great bipartisan support throughout its formation, and a lot of the work was done on it under the last Government and previous Ministers of Immigration. I acknowledge the contribution of former Ministers of Immigration Paul Swain, David Cunliffe, and Clayton Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d6507cefae4cd78dbdc4a657680119\u0022\u003EHon Steve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s very courteous. That is very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f39ac9a3b9e24c34bb9325bd8fc096ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EImmigration is absolutely vital to New Zealand\u2019s interests. When we look at the contribution it makes to our economy, we see that it is actually right at the centre of everything New Zealand does as \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D The Immigration Service makes half a million decisions each year. It makes decisions that bring people into our country with the skills we need that we cannot grow on our own shores. It brings tourists, who bring nearly $9 billion of foreign exchange earnings into this country each year. Immigration is something on which this country was built. So immigration is very much at the core of New Zealand\u2019s economic well-being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIt is very timely that we are having this complete rewrite of the Immigration Act 1987. I acknowledge the contribution of the officials to this process. They have put in a heck of a lot of work over the last 2-something years. It has been trying at times, I know, to get such a massive piece of legislation right. It is a 500-page bill, with 13 parts. The officials have certainly given excellent service in getting the bill together, both to me and to the former Ministers of Immigration. It really has been an extensive work. It has been a well-consulted bill. There have been over 4,000 submissions on the bill. I believe that 90 people appeared in person before the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee at various stages. I acknowledge the work of the select committee in its report back on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI have tabled a pretty extensive Supplementary Order Paper. I know that there are Supplementary Order Papers from other members, as well. The Government Supplementary Order Paper covers a number of elements. There are technical amendments, relatively minor in nature. There is an amendment that was recommended by the select committee itself, relating to the ability to cancel deportation orders in certain circumstances. Then there are a number of matters that the Government believes need addressing. This bill has been quite some time in passing through the legislative process. As I said, the first reading was 2 years ago. Time has moved on and we want to make sure that we have an up-to-date and flexible framework for immigration policy. The bill is framework legislation. It does not stipulate the specifics of immigration policy; it sets the playing field within which any given Government can implement its own policies. The idea is that it is flexible and enduring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EOne of the main features of the bill is that there will be a universal visa system. It will be a much simpler, more streamlined system to replace the current visa permit and exemption system. There will also be provisions that enable trans-Tasman travel. We are aiming to streamline trans-Tasman travel. The provisions in this bill will allow people to be processed from offshore in a way that we would not have envisaged when the 1987 legislation became law. There is also a new refugee and protection regime. I am sure that we are going to have some discussion about that as the bill progresses through the Committee stage. The establishment of a new single Immigration and Protection Tribunal is a major change that will certainly streamline some of the existing processes and take a lot of bureaucracy out of the process. There is also a new classified information system, which will allow classified information to be taken into account when important decisions regarding whom we want to bring into this country need to be made. Of course, more flexible compliance and information powers will enable immigration officers to do their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, in immigration legislation we have to balance the national interest against the interests of individuals. Of course, the facilitation aspects of immigration are not dealt with in the legislation. A lot of it is elements of policy and settlement services, so by definition the legislation tends to focus more on the compliance aspects. I think we have come up with some very good changes that I hope the Committee will support. I certainly commend this bill to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00227acf922b10cb4f4bbf9e51cd2c5690af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227acf922b10cb4f4bbf9e51cd2c5690af\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Immigration for his generous remarks. There is an outbreak of peace that will endure for much of the evening, although not perhaps all of it. The legislation has been well described by the Minister. I endorse his remarks and I do not have to repeat them. That means I might get my introductory remarks made within 5 minutes instead of within 10 minutes\u2014we will see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ECertainly, Labour has been very involved in the legislation, and the Minister was kind enough to acknowledge previous Ministers of Immigration. I think it would be a good idea if we reminded ourselves that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee spent an awful lot of time on the legislation, after Ministers themselves had spent years on it. The current Minister has had it on his desk for many, many months. The Hon Vui Mark Gosche deserves mention, because his contribution as the chairperson of the committee was undoubtedly pivotal. He was a South Auckland MP. He is a man who has a history in the union movement. He understands job substitution. He understands the needs of Pacific Island communities. So he has a very good idea of the balance that the Minister spoke of, and I think he has a clear view that the bill in its current form is in pretty good shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESince that time Supplementary Order Paper 32 has been tabled by the Government. It is a biggie. It is bigger than most pieces of legislation to come before this House\u2014there are 106 pages of it. Labour members were granted a copy of it by the Minister, and today we have had an opportunity to have a first cut at it with officials, including some very capable officials. I thank the Minister and his staff for affording us that opportunity. It has increased our understanding of some of the detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EFrankly, some of the technical detail is above my head, but fortunately it is not above the heads of previous Ministers such as David Cunliffe, Lianne Dalziel in particular, who is a lawyer, and Clayton Cosgrove. We have got ourselves to a point where we are prepared to debate some of the details of the legislation to gain further information to support much of it\u2014in fact, a great deal of it\u2014and to make up our minds on some aspects of it that may require us to suggest alternative wording, or may, indeed, end up with our simply opposing this or that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EOne issue where we do have an interest and are at variance with the Government is the issue of review. Our considered view is that with legislation of this size\u2014which, after all, replaces legislation that is 22 years old\u2014and of this complexity and breadth, and which has this sort of impact on the individual lives of a number of people who are either visiting or wanting to live in New Zealand, having a review clause might not be such a bad idea. In fact, not reviewing the legislation after a period of time is almost certainly a bad idea. All major legislation that has come to the House in my time, in the last couple of decades almost, has been subject to review either by statutory requirement or by dint of necessity\u2014that is to say, legislation that is as big as this and as complex as this, notwithstanding the scrutiny given to it, will be subject to interpretive differences, either by the court, or by officials who are putting it into place, or by the positive or negative actions of immigration lawyers and immigration consultants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESo it is somewhat dynamic, and therefore review is inevitable. If review is inevitable, why do we not make it a matter of statute? Just as soon as the Labour Party members have worked out which part we want to amend, we will as a matter of course put up a couple of review clauses\u2014and I hope we are supported by other parties\u2014to give the Government a couple of options, to see whether it will buy that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe case against a review clause is worth noting, and it is that strictures are caused. If the legislation states that a review will take place within this time or within that time, it might turn out that it is not the ideal time. There are ways round that using wording, and I will demonstrate that when I sit down and get my pen out. But I think that officials have an aversion to thinking about a review now; having just spent so many years working on the Immigration Bill in the first place, they do not want some troglodyte coming along and saying \u201CLet\u2019s have a review.\u201D I absolutely understand that from a human perspective, but the truth of the matter is that a review clause simply puts in statute that which is inevitable. One thing it does do is enable the Government of the day to say to the complainant of the day that a review of the legislation is coming up\u2014that, actually, it is a statutory requirement\u2014and the complaint, or the observation, or the concern can be taken into account in that review process. I think the Government should think carefully about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESo there we are. It is a good bill, with a long gestation, and it is very substantially, but probably not entirely, supported by the Labour Party. We acknowledge the significant number of amendments that have come forward from the Green Party. We may or may not support them. We would like to hear the arguments, especially those from Keith Locke. We acknowledge the contribution of the M\u0101ori Party and its amendment to Part 1, and we will hear about that soon. For the moment, I will close by thanking the Minister for the generous use of his time and his officials\u2019 time, reasserting my appreciation of Vui Mark Gosche, and saying that the passage of the bill is to be commended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00223dcd8ab0613145e9bc2b7a190a1629d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dcd8ab0613145e9bc2b7a190a1629d6\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in the Committee stage of the Immigration Bill. It is a significant bill. I was not part of the discussions that took place in the committee during the last term of Parliament. The purpose of this bill is, as the Minister said, to do a complete rewrite of the 1987 Act, and certainly the world has changed dramatically since that time. The world migration flows have changed dramatically, travel is cheaper, it is easier to get around, places are more accessible, and, of course, on the way we have had September 11, which really put the world on notice of security problems at our borders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003ESince the 1987 legislation there have been a number of amendments. The old legislation is very complex, and this bill attempts to simplify it. As it is, New Zealand is very much dependent on migration, and each year we bring in 45,000 permanent migrants. In the 2007-08 year we approved a record 188,000 temporary work permits. Over the last 5 years permanent and temporary migrants have accounted for 60 percent of the growth of our workforce, helping to sustain and grow New Zealand business, so migrants do contribute hugely to New Zealand\u2019s economy. Of course, with an ageing population in New Zealand and over 600,000 New Zealanders living offshore, it is not too surprising that one in four workers was born overseas, and in Auckland that figure is even greater at one in three workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe bill sets out to simplify the visa system. The 1987 Act currently provides for a visa for travel to New Zealand, a permit for permission to stay in New Zealand, and exemptions, as some people do not have to hold a visa or permit, or both. So this bill establishes a universal visa system that is simpler and more flexible in managing non-citizens\u2019 travel to, and stay in, New Zealand. The visa will signify that the holder has the right to travel or stay in New Zealand. The bill establishes three classes of visa\u2014the resident visa, temporary entry visa, and transit visas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt is unfortunate that we inherited a dysfunctional Immigration Service, with poor management practices, a silo mentality, and an unacceptable variation in the quality of decision making between branches. That came out with the Auditor-General\u2019s review. I know that our Minister is determined to address these deficiencies and has the department working on implementing the recommendations of the Auditor-General\u2019s report. The chief executive officer has appointed an adviser to assist and monitor the reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EAs an example of changing the culture, a scheme was started in August this year. It has been trialled in the hospitality and tourism sector, whereby Immigration New Zealand must advise applicants, in a timely way, of the status of their temporary work permits. That will go some way to help change the culture. It is a more reactive approach in terms of making sure that permits can be assessed and processed in a more timely way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill will, hopefully, in part, go some way to addressing the National Government\u2019s immigration aims, and they are to retain Kiwis and attract more home. Certainly, policies have been produced by the Government to meet our skill needs and to attract business and retired migrants. There has been a significant business migrant policy, which has become more flexible, with reduced English level requirements, in order to try to attract migrants with significant skills and to provide financial back-up to New Zealand. I am sure we will benefit from that. In the last business migrant policy under the previous Government there were very few applicants. They were in the range of 10 to 20, or thereabouts. Of course we need to have a better Immigration Service, and I believe this bill will go some way towards achieving that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EOn the way we had September 11, and what happened then shocked the world. I looked at the recent statistics of migrants and flows coming in and out of New Zealand, before and after September 11, and it was quite astonishing. People virtually stopped in their tracks overnight. New Zealanders came back to New Zealand in their droves, people did not go away from New Zealand on their OEs, and the world basically stood still. It is really recovering only now, but, of course, the recession has also had a further impact on that. This bill looks at security measures and has some more provisions for immigration officers, so that we can make sure that security is maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002283b08f00c42e429d809fcad09cd20f27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b08f00c42e429d809fcad09cd20f27\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Immigration Bill is a very big bill; as the Minister of Immigration, Jonathan Coleman, said, there were 4,000 submissions on it. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee spent a lot of time hearing those submissions. I was on that committee as the Green Party representative. Most of those submissions were critical of the bill. In the Committee stage the Green Party will essentially be putting forward amendments that are in line with substantial criticisms that have been made by reputable organisations like Amnesty International, the Human Rights Commission, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that, on such an important bill, we are dealing with the Committee stage, which should really get to the heart of the bill, in urgency, and at a time when a lot of members want to go home, or go off to see the reception for the All Blacks and the Wallabies at Parliament, and what not. It is disappointing because this bill was reported back from the select committee about a year ago, so there does not seem to be any real reason for it to be included in the urgency motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has four amendments on Part 1, and in my contributions on this part I want to outline the importance of those amendments. The first one amends clause 4(1) as regards the definition of \u201Cbiometric information\u201D. We propose to exclude iris scans from that definition. The current definition includes \u201C(i) a photograph of all or part of the person\u2019s head or shoulders: (ii) the person\u2019s fingerprints: (iii) an iris scan;\u201D. The Green Party is worried about the creep towards a surveillance society, and part of that creep is the increasing use of biometric identifiers. We see that iris scans, which are starting to come in around the world, are an even more intrusive form of biometric identification. We are not convinced that they are needed for immigration purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn fact, at the select committee there was some criticism on the question of biometrics. For example, the Human Rights Commission in its written submission said: \u201Cthe Commission is not convinced that there are compelling reasons for requiring biometric data to be collected from everyone who wishes to come to New Zealand. It is concerned that this could set a precedent for the compulsory collection of biometric information in other areas or lead to data being exchanged with other countries.\u201D Then it goes on to say: \u201Cthere is no indication in the Bill about how the information will be dealt with\u2014for example, how it will be stored or for how long.\u201D There was a lot of discussion on biometric information, which will be dealt with in consideration of Part 2 of the bill. The Privacy Commissioner, who was also a bit worried about this issue, effectively intervened in the discussion in the committee. Some changes were produced as to privacy assessments and when biometric information collecting systems are introduced. We will talk about that later, but I ask members to at least exclude iris scans from the system that is being applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned speeding up travel to Australia. This will involve New Zealanders being photographed and their facial characteristics being compared against the chip in their passport. That is not a particularly wonderful step, but certainly we do not want to go one step beyond that to iris scanning. I think there was a lot of concern among New Zealanders when the United States introduced fingerprinting for everyone going to America, including people in transit. I was fingerprinted in Los Angeles International Airport, where I sat in a transit lounge for an hour. I hopped off an Air New Zealand plane and hopped back on to it an hour later, and in the meantime I was fingerprinted. It gets a bit over the top. Supposedly, from the American point of view, it is part of the war on terror, but it tends to affect ordinary people a bit too much. Biometrics are also being introduced in terms of fingerprints for such things as people getting out library books. We are moving more and more down that track. So I thought that perhaps setting a base here by removing iris scans from the Immigration Bill would help in not letting it spread to the rest of society, with people having to clock in at work using iris scans, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe second amendment to clause 4 of Part 1 that I want to talk about changes the definition of \u201Crelevant agency\u201D. These are relevant agencies for the purposes of having classified information for the purposes of immigration processing. Normally when we think of agencies with classified information we think of the Security Intelligence Service, the Government Communications Security Bureau, and the Police. The Green Party wants the definition to be restricted to those three agencies, as it traditionally has been, rather than adding a whole pile of other agencies. I will read out the other agencies: the Aviation Security Service, the Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand, the Department of Corrections, the Department of Internal Affairs, the Department of Labour, Maritime New Zealand, the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Ministry of Fisheries, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the New Zealand Customs Service, and the New Zealand Defence Force. All of these agencies will now be able to say that particular bits of their information are classified. The chief executives of those organisations will have all sorts of rights\u2014we will discuss them later on in the Committee stage\u2014to withhold information and stop the Immigration and Protection Tribunal from making it public. We do not believe that is necessary, particularly in immigration cases, where we want maximum transparency so that people who are going before the New Zealand Immigration Service, the tribunal, or the Minister are able to properly see the case for or against their staying in or coming to New Zealand. So the nature of this amendment to clause 4 is to cut out all of those other organisations. Eleven of them should not be there; just the Police, the Government Communications Security Bureau, and the Security Intelligence Service should be left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think this amendment is important because, as we all know\u2014and we discuss this in Parliament every day\u2014departments like to hide things, for various reasons. Sometimes it is just to avoid embarrassment if they have made a mistake, and that is why we have the Official Information Act to try to get this information out. We spend a lot of time asking questions in Parliament to get out information that people are trying to hide. So why should we give these agencies the right to determine as classified all this stuff relating to individuals with immigration cases? It is also a bit problematic if all of these 11 other agencies become, in effect, mini - police agencies in terms of their classified information, investigatory powers, etc. We are creeping down that path a bit in the Search and Surveillance Bill that is before the House. That bill is creeping down that path in a parallel way. That is the Green Party\u2019s motivation for putting up that particular amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOur next amendment is to clause 5(2)(a). This amendment is supported by Amnesty International. It also relates to classified information. Clause 5(2)(a) expands on the definition of \u201Cclassified information\u201D, which it says is information that \u201Cmight lead to the identification, or provide details, of the source of the information, the nature, content, or scope of the information, or the nature or the type of the assistance or operational methods available to the relevant agency;\u201D. I remind members that \u201Crelevant agency\u201D covers those 14 agencies, not just the traditional security agencies. Amnesty International suggested\u2014and the Greens support this\u2014that rather than \u201Cclassified information\u201D being defined as information that \u201Cmight\u201D lead to a problem, it should be defined as information that \u201Cwill be likely to\u201D. Otherwise, any chief executive of an agency might say that if he or she discloses a particular bit of information, it \u201Cmight\u201D lead to something else. It is very vague wording. We have all seen in our work as MPs how agencies chop out all sorts of things from Official Information Act requests, and if we give them too great a scope, saying that something is classified if it \u201Cmight\u201D lead to a problem, we might not get the information that is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe next amendment is to clause 5(3)(a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00222f60fd713c63462aaf93506b63656581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f60fd713c63462aaf93506b63656581\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to take a call in the Committee stage debate of the Immigration Bill. I join the Hon Pete Hodgson in thanking the Minister of Immigration, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, both for his courtesies in his remarks and also for making available the officials\u2019 time to brief us on Supplementary Order Paper 320. I guess this is one of those processes that the public does not see often enough, where there is active cooperation between the parties right around the Chamber. There is a once in a generation nature to this rewrite of the Immigration Bill\u2014let us hope it is only once in a generation. It has passed through the hands of, if I can count, at least five Ministers. It has had the same officials, but five Ministers. So I guess we can fairly say that a great deal of the credit\u2014or the discredit, depending on how it all works out in the end\u2014will be attached to the loyal officials who have worked on it all the way through. It is really humbling for Ministers to realise that we are but a blink in the imagination of the officials who serve us, before they move on to train the next one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWith due humility, let us record that Labour supports this bill. There is one part of the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, in respect of refugee and protection provisions, that we will be opposing. In respect of all other provisions, including the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, we will be rendering support. That reflects the long process of consideration that this bill has had. To give some due credit to my colleagues, the bill had its gestation right back in about 2003, or 2004, when the Hon Lianne Dalziel put together some ideas for the consideration of the then Minister, Paul Swain, and officials were working from that point on a range of ideas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAlso about that time, to be fair, we should record that there were a number of celebrated cases, or at least celebrated by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, of individuals like a member of Saddam Hussein\u2019s Cabinet who ended up sunning himself on a beach in Tauranga or somewhere. We decided it would be a good idea if we made the border a bit more impregnable. So some of the early drafting around the reform programme put a higher degree of emphasis on the security side of things, and on ensuring that officials and agencies of the State had what they need to do their job on behalf of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is also probably fair to say that by the time some early versions of the bill had passed through Minister Swain\u2019s hands to my own, there was a need to rebalance it in favour of the protection of civil liberties and human rights, to ensure that we had a clean New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet, and that we had the general support of the Privacy Commission. All of those things were achieved, which is a credit to the long hours that were put in by officials and office staff; we recognise all of the above today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is also timely to recognise the extensive work that was done under my successor Clayton Cosgrove by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee chaired by Vui Mark Gosche. My colleague Darien Fenton is one the alumni of that illustrious committee. The bill as it is presented to the House has a 33-page intensively written committee report, which I think adds great value to the bill. It has continued the process of rebalancing from the early focus on ensuring the rigour of the border and that officialdom had the appropriate powers to ensure that private protections were in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI will also contextualise the legislation within the broader context of the way that the process of immigration management is changing. A word of warning to Government members: it follows from the fact that immigration Ministers come and go, rather like pass the parcel in a Belfast pub. There is no point in playing politics with the Immigration Service. If we do that, it is a bit like playing politics with the police force; it makes it hard for the officers appointed to defend the interests of the public to do their job, and in the end, we all lose. So we will not be playing politics with this bill or with the state of the Immigration Service, which I know ain\u2019t perfect. It was not perfect before I saw it, it was not perfect when I had it, and it ain\u2019t perfect now. But it is filled by and large with people who get up every day to go and serve the public interest and do their very best. As politicians, we ought not to be taking out on them our frustrations about the complexities of the modern world. That is not to say that if there are particular instances of malpractice, we should not draw that to the public attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn that regard, the Immigration Bill before us today was part of a broader immigration change programme that had three layers, and I imagine the Minister is still addressing himself to all three. To quickly recall those layers, they are the policy and strategy layer, the legislative layer, and the operational layer. There have been some surprises at the operational end of things that we do not need to dwell on today, but I say to the Minister that there is also a fair degree of bipartisan support for the ongoing improvement to both the policy and the operations that provide the context for this bill, in the area, for example, of the services, information technology systems, and its processing operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThat is enough of a quick walk down memory lane. The key changes we will be discussing in the Committee stage relate to the purpose of the bill. It is to provide a stronger, more flexible, and enduring foundation for a modern immigration system. It aims to facilitate the entry of the people we want, and to ensure that we can keep out the people we really do not want. It is the sovereign right of any nation to make that choice. Immigration is not a right; it is a gift that is bestowed on the person seeking to enter a country, and it is the responsibility of the Crown to offer that gift appropriately, with good process, with appropriate protections for human rights, but with the national interest in mind. Whatever side of the Chamber we are on, it means that there will be people we say no to. We will say no to them because they do not meet the standards we require in terms of raising the average, because they do not fall into a designated humanitarian category, or because they carry with them risks to our international reputation or, God forbid, security. It is the sovereign right of any nation to turn people away and to welcome them in. If we do welcome them in, we carry with us the responsibility to ensure that they are properly integrated into our society, that there is room in our schools for their children, even if sometimes\u2014I will put in a particular plug for the Pacific community\u2014the immigration status of their parents is in question; we ought not to block the access of those children to school. It is not their fault that there may be a question about their parents\u2019 immigration status. I will be bringing that up again later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere is a valid purpose for this bill to provide both the safeguards that the State needs to carry out those roles, and the protections that must continue to ensure that they are not abused. In any complex organisation, in any Government agency, there is the potential, as my Green colleague has said, for mistakes, etc. For that reason, we have updates to technology-driven matters like biometric processing; access and management of classified information; a more transparent and equitable deportation system that will also be faster, but more balanced; better detention and monitoring; and more appropriate incentives for third parties to comply. We will have time to discuss each of those issues as we go through the debate. These are contextual comments. I thank the Minister again for the opportunity to contribute to the discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022177ef62513eb46939e137d3e25a10030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177ef62513eb46939e137d3e25a10030\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow on from the comments made by members of this House in regard to the Immigration Bill. This is a once-in-a-generation rewrite of the immigration legislation. One will find there is common cause amongst members of this Parliament and past Parliaments to ensure that we get it right to the extent that is possible. We see a great deal of support across the parties in the Chamber to make sure we have the best bill going forward. As a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which looked at this bill\u2014and there are some Labour members here that were on that committee\u2014I would like to pay tribute to Mark Gosche who did a tremendous job of leading this bill through the committee, and also to the now Speaker of the House, Lockwood Smith, who lead the National charge in regard to the bill. He had a huge impact on how the bill was treated during the committee\u2019s deliberation. Those two individuals need to be singled out for special mention and support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI congratulate the current Minister of Immigration, Dr Jonathan Coleman, on getting this bill to the stage where it has come before the Committee. That is a tribute to his hard work. As the previous speaker said, many Ministers have endeavoured to get the bill to this stage, but have not had that kind of success. I say well done to the Minister, and well done to the officials who have spent many years progressing this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt is important that New Zealanders understand that this is the Immigration Bill, but it is only a procedural bill. When we talk about immigration, many New Zealanders think of who can come into New Zealand. They think of the people who come into our country on a yearly basis. This bill does not deal with that issue, as such. The nature of who comes into New Zealand is outside of this legislation. This bill sets the procedures of how our immigration system works. When New Zealanders hear us talking about the Immigration Bill, they actually think it sets out how many people come into our country each year, who those people are, and what their country of origin is. The reality is that the public perceptions of what immigration is about are quite different from what we are talking about here tonight. This bill is about the structure of how our immigration system operates. It is about some of our border issues. It is about the nature of the review process and our visa system. It is much more about the procedural aspect of immigration than the practical aspect that individuals in our community will identify with when we talk about immigration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think National and Labour will come together on this bill, because the parties have a common approach to immigration, in that we see the benefit of it for our communities and our country. The Green Party will probably provide the most different point of view on the legislation. The Greens did that in the select committee. Although it may not necessarily be in the best interests of New Zealand to follow what the Green Party is proposing, it is an important part of the process of coming to the conclusions we do in this bill to have that voice advocated in the committee and in the Chamber. Its view may not reflect the end result that would be practical for New Zealand, but it is something that adds value to the final result we get. I encourage Keith to stand up and say what he thinks. I know that he will be representing some people who made some submissions in regard to this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ffbeda526a9412891d442b760408d25\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Go easy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8022c96f4154648a23cb1fd111aecd9\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, even though that idealism may not reflect what a country would endeavour to do in practical terms, it may well have a value in theoretical terms. We congratulate the Green Party on putting its view forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe will see a good bill come out of this session. It will be a bill that sets up a procedure going forward for New Zealand immigration that will be in the best interests of all New Zealanders. It is one of those things where we never get a final result that is perfect. It is a bit like the tax bill that we have just debated. It is an area that is so big and that has so much complexity that we cannot cover it all off in one bill, and think it will be done for ever and a day. It is something that will develop and will change over time. We look forward to this bill progressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022e56559a51ed043ce8872b6fa421ff1af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e56559a51ed043ce8872b6fa421ff1af\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Me p\u0113nei rawa te k\u014Drero, ko t\u0101ku ko te whakairi i te \u0101huatanga o te k\u014Drero m\u014D te Tiriti o Waitangi ki mua i te aroaro o t\u0113nei Whare i t\u0113nei p\u014D m\u014D te w\u0101 poto i roto i te reo M\u0101ori, kia taea ai e te katoa o t\u0113nei Whare te m\u014Dhio ko te h\u014Dhonutanga o t\u0113nei kaupapa ki t\u0113nei Whare. Ko te tangata n\u0101na t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i whakairi ki mua i te aroaro o te Whare P\u0101remata, ko taku hoa ko Hone Harawira. Ko t\u014Dna hiahia me k\u012B, kia whakairi t\u0113 t\u0101h\u016Bh\u016B k\u014Drero i raro i te \u0101huatanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi. He aha te p\u0101nga o te Tiriti o Waitangi ki te haerenga mai o te tangata i t\u0101w\u0101hi ki konei, he aha te w\u0101hanga o te ao M\u0101ori ki t\u0113r\u0101 haerenga mai o tangata k\u0113 ki Aotearoa nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKo te mea nui o roto i te Tiriti o Waitangi, t\u0113tahi mea i k\u014Drerohia i roto i te pire o T\u0101maki-makau-rau, kia whai w\u0101hi te ao M\u0101ori i roto i ng\u0101 nekeneke o te motu nei. N\u0101 runga i te aha? N\u0101 runga i te mea ko te Tiriti o Waitangi, he k\u014Drero i w\u0101nangahia e te ao M\u0101ori, e te ao P\u0101keh\u0101 i ng\u0101 rau tau kua hipa hai painga m\u014D te katoa. Koinei te tino hiahia i puta i roto i te pire m\u014D T\u0101maki-makau-rau. Kai te p\u0113r\u0101 tonu i t\u0113nei w\u0101 m\u014D t\u0113nei pire. Kai hea te w\u0101hanga o te ao M\u0101ori \u0101-tangata whenua nei i roto i ng\u0101 ture o t\u0113nei Whare P\u0101remata? N\u014D reira, koi nei te mihi ki a t\u0101tau katoa i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Kia ora t\u0101tau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, and to us all this afternoon, Mr Chair. My part, by way of explanation, is to put the case of the Treaty of Waitangi before the House this afternoon, and to speak in M\u0101ori for a brief period so that everyone will have a deeper understanding of it in this Parliament. My colleague Hone Harawira was responsible for this part from the M\u0101ori Party that was put before the Parliament. He wanted to ensure that there would be references to the Treaty of Waitangi in terms of its relevance to immigrants coming here, and the impact M\u0101oridom would have on people coming to New Zealand from elsewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe most important factor in the Treaty of Waitangi, something that was debated in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, was M\u0101oridom\u2019s participation in local government in this country. Why is that? It is because the Treaty of Waitangi has been talked about and debated over the past 100 years by M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 as being beneficial for all. This is really what was wanted to come out of the Auckland Council bill. That is the feeling at the moment about this bill. Where is the place for the M\u0101ori people of the country in the laws of this House of Parliament? So this is my acknowledgment to us all this afternoon. Greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned in te reo M\u0101ori, I rise to speak on behalf of my colleague Hone Harawira, who has put before the Committee Supplementary Order Paper 18 for it to consider. At its heart is our belief that a reference to Te Tiriti o Waitangi should be added to the Immigration Bill to enable M\u0101ori to have a statutory right of participation in the management of immigration, consistent with the rights guaranteed to M\u0101ori under the Treaty of Waitangi. I made reference to the Auckland situation, because one of the things that people find hard to understand in any discussion about Te Tiriti o Waitangi is its practical implications: what the drop-down effects are of having Te Tiriti o Waitangi as a part of legislation. We know that in the health sector, for example, people talk about participation, they talk about protection, and they talk about partnership. In terms of this Immigration Bill we hope that participation, in terms of setting the rules, and partnership, in terms of coming together with others\u2014not by ourselves\u2014to be able to set the scene in respect of immigration are important aspects. We have framed that under the terms of a Treaty of Waitangi clause; in other words, the legislation is to be consistent with the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn debating other immigration bills we have talked about references made by Dr Ranginui Walker, a very famous writer in Aotearoa. He described the Treaty of Waitangi as the original charter for immigration. He referred to the Treaty as providing the source for all migration to Aotearoa from Europe, Australia, and the United Kingdom. He referred to the fact that Te Tiriti o Waitangi guaranteed a developing social contract: a partnership of the two cultures. At its very core were expectations that M\u0101ori, as a Treaty partner, should be consulted on every aspect concerning migrants who wished to reside here. In the past we have put up Supplementary Order Papers to try to find that space, whether it be through establishing a consultative body over immigration policy or by being actively involved by way of providing education programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETangata whenua understand the intentions of the Treaty signatories in 1840; we believe that they were very clear. There was recognition by both parties to the Treaty that immigration was having a significant impact on the land and on M\u0101ori culture. We believe also that the architects of the Treaty knew that what the Treaty represented would establish a precedent in terms of how the British Empire recognised the culture, the rights, the traditions, and the way of life of indigenous peoples against the arrival of immigrants and the onslaught of immigration. So, in terms of immigration, we expect that all new citizens to Aotearoa should be able to learn about the history of this land and to appreciate the context that we all share arising from Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We want every New Zealander to appreciate the opportunities that Te Tiriti o Waitangi offers to us all in a shared future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe are focused in this bill on ensuring the provision of immigration advice that reflects the significance that this nation places on Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I am mindful too, of course, that in the confidence and supply arrangement that we enjoy with National, both parties have agreed to act in accordance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi. In terms of what we are facing right now, I say we have a confidence and supply arrangement that acknowledges Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We are soon to have an emissions trading scheme arrangement come before the House, as discussed by the Minister today, that holds Te Tiriti o Waitangi out there as an important document, especially around the huge issue of emissions trading and climate change. Here in this bill the M\u0101ori Party is again attempting to put the whole notion of the Treaty before the Committee by way of a small but significant Supplementary Order Paper that we think, and hope, the rest of the Committee will find is appropriate under the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI suppose the discussion is really aimed at the Minister of Immigration, as he ushers through this particular bill. Indeed, having set the precedent, we will be looking to try to again have Te Tiriti o Waitangi in front of all legislation as it comes to the House. The key will be our working together on the drop-down effects and the practical implications of similar legislation, but, more important, on the impact of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We would expect that as Treaty partners M\u0101ori should be consulted on every aspect concerning migrants who wish to reside here. Surely one would accept that that is an appropriate reaction on the part of tangata whenua, just as much as our expectation that we should have seats on the Auckland Council. We would expect a partnership approach, in which tangata whenua, in the spirit of manaakitanga\u2014of looking after each other as fellow countrymen and women\u2014and in a demonstration of rangatiratanga, can develop systems of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to help immigrants and refugees to adjust to life in Aotearoa when they arrive here. It must be a huge adjustment for many of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENothing in the bill serves to provide incentives for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to produce economic, social, cultural, and environmental benefits from pooling their skills, knowledge, talent, and experience with those of new New Zealanders. I suppose that is one of the downsides of the bill. So Supplementary Order Paper 18, which we have put forward today, is intended to give M\u0101ori a statutory right of participation in the management of immigration. We say that was and is consistent with the rights guaranteed to M\u0101ori under Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014and we would hope, as I said earlier, that we have widespread support from across the Committee for the intention of my colleague Hone Harawira and the M\u0101ori Party to put Te Tiriti o Waitangi constantly in front of the nation. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002220857e5345cd472c84f823b58e227af5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220857e5345cd472c84f823b58e227af5\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks for the opportunity to say a few words on the Immigration Bill, which I am very pleased to see is progressing through the House. I will comment on the contribution made by Te Ururoa Flavell for the M\u0101ori Party and his colleague Hone Harawira, but I will do so in the context of recognising that this bill completely changes the format of the previous legislation, particularly in the area of having established the purpose clause. Given that Hone Harawira\u2019s amendment would add another clause to the purpose clause, I will comment on the fact that we are looking to replace legislation that described itself as \u201CAn Act generally to reform the law relating to immigration, and in particular to remove the need for persons who are in New Zealand unlawfully to be dealt with by way of criminal prosecution\u201D. That is rather an unfortunate way to describe such a fundamental piece of law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe have now a purpose statement that traverses a number of different issues, right through from the purpose being \u201Cto manage immigration in a way that balances the national interest, as determined by the Crown, and the rights of individuals.\u201D, to looking at the way that that purpose is achieved. A number of provisions are placed in the purpose clause, such as requiring non - New Zealand citizens to hold a visa to travel and to stay in New Zealand, facilitating access to skills and labour, supporting families, allowing for the management of the immigration aspects of border control, and the list goes on. Personally my favourite is to have finally recognised in our law that we are supporting \u201Cthe settlement of migrants, refugees, and protected persons.\u201D as a statement of purpose in the legislation. I think that is a huge advance, and it is something that I have certainly been looking forward to see written into our law for a considerable length of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI acknowledge what the member Hone Harawira is trying to achieve by moving an amendment to add a new clause 3A in order to make the legislation consistent with the Treaty of Waitangi, but I will go back over time and explain an approach that I adopted when I was the Minister of Immigration and had the privilege of holding that portfolio. I felt that it was really important that before we started developing this new law\u2014because this law has been in the development stage for a very long time\u2014we consulted with M\u0101ori about what their expectations might be of a new Immigration Act, so we started a consultation process. The very first consultation we had was a complete and utter disaster, and I can stand here and say that I accept full responsibility for that. The main reason was that I attended that initial consultation, having invited people whom I felt ought to be in the room for such a consultation, and I discovered that, in fact, there was not a unified view from those around the table. Ranginui Walker was one of the people in the room, and he certainly made that very fine and sound statement that if we were looking for our original statement of immigration policy, then we need look no further than the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt was a very powerful meeting. I remember having a very interesting engagement with several of the individuals there, and I learnt a lot from that particular occasion. I learnt that the Crown could not call together a group of people and say that it had consulted with M\u0101ori about which way was the right way to go. I started a process of going around individual iwi and talking to iwi\u2014listening more than talking, to be honest\u2014to find out what people wanted out of an Immigration Act rewrite. What I started to hear, because it was a job that I left incomplete, was that people wanted to see people making the decision to migrate to New Zealand being tied up with an understanding of the country they were migrating to. Therefore, an understanding of the Treaty need not be an administrative function for M\u0101ori within New Zealand, but a knowledge base to be shared with new migrants to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EA number of M\u0101ori made the point to me that under our citizenship laws there needs to be an understanding of the Treaty of Waitangi and of the relationship that we have in New Zealand, yet that is not in our immigration law. My answer to the question that is posed quite justifiably by the member is that this is not the right place for this clause. In my view, it is better that the immigration legislation remains silent on the matter, but that the conditions against which immigration status\u2014and residence status, in particular\u2014is granted should be more inclusive of the objectives of the Treaty and the understanding around that. Certainly, in terms of establishing the immigration programme on an ongoing basis, consultation with M\u0101ori is not dependent on having a Treaty clause in the document. In many respects I am arguing against myself, because I tend to have a view that it is useful to have consultation obligations written into legislation, but a clause that simply asks for: \u201CThe interpretation and administration of this Act will be consistent with the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D does not, in my view, get to the heart of the issue. The issue is that the people who choose to make New Zealand their home need to have a good understanding of the nature of the Treaty, which establishes one of the very foundations of our nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat is my view and it was part of a consultation that I had started, but it was incomplete, as I said. I certainly would encourage the Government of the day to think about continuing that conversation, because it was a very, very worthwhile process. It certainly opened up my eyes to a lot of issues that I would have been completely unaware of otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe only other comment that I will make on Part 1 is in relation to a clause that I had some concerns about, and the Minister has tabled a Supplementary Order Paper to amend the particular provision. I had some concerns about the new clause 5C, which had been moved by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee from another part of the bill. I think that the problem that arose with the wording that was framed in the clause was that the use of the new phrase \u201Cwhile liable for deportation\u201D had not really been picked up with its new meaning. Simply taking the provisions of the previous law straight out of the current Immigration Act and inserting those as the new clause 5C(1) resolves the problem with the clause that I had raised, and I am very grateful to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, for resolving that issue. I know that a couple of my other colleagues have commented on the issue of how well we have been served in terms of preparing for this debate, and I too acknowledge the Minister for making officials available to work through these issues with us. I appreciate that very much, and I am sure that the bill will be stronger for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022003f198a9da145b592e9403641cd8154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003f198a9da145b592e9403641cd8154\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E The Immigration Bill is a very substantial piece of work. Clearly, a lot of effort has gone into it. I was not a member of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which dealt with it, and when I look at the size of the task I must say that I am not sorry about that. The select committee is to be commended for its attention to detail and for the very solid and cooperative work that it has put into this bill. I also acknowledge the role of a number of Ministers of Immigration, because it has clearly passed through several sets of ministerial hands to reach the point where it is at now, although I believe that the current Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, deserves a lot of credit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49c57089e224cebbb012b551e76653b\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: When we broke for the welcome dinner break I had just been commenting that the Immigration Bill is very substantial and complex legislation, which has been worked on by a lot of people for a long time. I reiterate my congratulations to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee; I was not a member of the committee during its deliberations. It clearly did a very good job, as did several Ministers from both the current and previous Governments. I reiterate my compliments to the present Minister in the chair, Jonathan Coleman, for the fine job that he has done in getting this bill to the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWhen legislation is as far-reaching and, as I have said, as complex as this bill, it is very, very important that Parliament gets it right. That takes time, and it takes attention to detail. The time has gone into this bill; so has the attention to detail. As the previous speaker, Lianne Dalziel, said, this is once-in-a-generation legislation. It is worth getting it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EAddressing specifically Part 1, I say the bill contains a statement of purpose. In summary, the purpose is \u201Cto manage immigration in a way that balances the national interest, as determined by the Crown, and the rights of individuals.\u201D As a previous Labour speaker has commented, every nation has the sovereign right to control who comes across its borders. It is not a right to live in a country; it is a privilege. But it is important to get the balance right between the two, and it is my view that this bill does that. The primary objective of reforming the legislation is to establish a stronger, more flexible, and more durable legislative foundation for New Zealand\u2019s immigration system. The objective is to facilitate entry into New Zealand, and to enable people to stay in New Zealand who are of the types that New Zealand wants and needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215bb7883b8d94d0fb4171726b5810937\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, a bit of passion, Allan! I know it\u2019s been a long day, but come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d03fb66fb334a209df8c2345c9ea822\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Is Mr Robertson not enjoying this speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dfe4e03b9b74f3aa063785bd56ea7f5\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I want a bit of passion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8f1c640ebb4db58263dfa3d05be5fb\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we decided on this side of the Chamber that on the last evening of urgency we would tone down some of the hard truths that we have had to say about the Labour Party and the previous Government. If the member would like to take a call himself and have a crack at me, I would welcome that. It might get me motivated to take another call later in the evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022982df223287f40a2812dcc7508aff9a5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: If you do that, we\u2019ll ask Aaron Gilmore to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d562a58575174364afd2b9d6431d1f84\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! The business of the Government is far more serious than this, surely. I guess one of the privileges of being in Opposition is that members do not have to take anything very seriously, because they are not responsible for anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EIn fact, given the intention of this bill to set up a strong, more flexible, and enduring legislative foundation for New Zealand\u2019s immigration policy, it is important that there is as high a degree of cooperation across the floor of the Chamber among all parties as can be achieved. New Zealand needs to control who crosses its borders; it needs to control who is allowed to stay. Immigration is a very, very important part of the fabric of what makes up New Zealand, and of where many New Zealanders came from. So immigration needs to be managed in a fair and balanced way: a way that balances the interests of the Crown with the interests of the individual. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb03fddd7d49440d98fd9ec17ee1a24b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb03fddd7d49440d98fd9ec17ee1a24b\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to give an explanation of my amendment to clause 5(3)(a) of the Immigration Bill. I think it relates to what the previous speaker, Allan Peachey, was talking about: sure, we control who comes across our borders, but we have to do so in a very fair way. The Green Party is concerned, as were various submitters, that the definition of \u201Csecurity\u201D as it relates to withholding information deemed to be classified was too loose. My amendment takes out a piece of it. That is, instead of information being determined as classified if it is likely \u201C(a) to prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand or the international relations of New Zealand;\u201D, my amendment seeks to omit \u201Cor the international relations of New Zealand;\u201D because it is so vague. As the Human Rights Commission said in its submission, \u201CApart from the implications of using classified information in a wide range of immigration matters, relying on concerns about the potential effect on New Zealand\u2019s international reputation is problematic. Decisions about what amounts to a significant impact on a country\u2019s reputation can be subjective. In the United Kingdom they have been described as \u2018makeweight\u2019 and held not to justify detention without trial in the absence of other reasons:\u201D. The Auckland District Law Society said that the current definition, which includes the phrase \u201Csignificant impact on New Zealand\u2019s international reputation\u201D, is considered too wide and incapable of sufficiently precise definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think members can see that in this Chamber we debate what is in the best interests of New Zealand\u2019s international relations. We have big disagreements on that matter. For example, at the moment I am looking at the ways in which the leader of the World Uyghur Congress, Rebiya Kadeer, could come to New Zealand and explain the cause of her people. If members look at that and how it will affect New Zealand\u2019s international relations, they will see that it will improve our relations with the Uyghur people, it will improve our relations with the Tibetan people, it will improve our relations with the democrats of China, and it will improve our relations with democratic-minded people throughout the world, but it will not necessarily improve our relations in the short term with the Chinese Government, which is suppressing the Uyghur people as we speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne can look at international relations in the short term or the long term. It may be that there is some penalty for New Zealand from the Chinese Government if we allow Rebiya Kadeer to come to New Zealand, but if we give encouragement to the democratic forces of China, that will carry on to other issues, such as the fact that the Chinese Government at the moment is aiding Bainimarama in Fiji. If we have a more democratic China that might not be the case; it would help everyone. So it would be much better not to have vague terminology in that clause. Let us say that Rebiya Kadeer applies for a visa. We do not allow her to come in, and the information explaining why we are denying her the visa is classified because it would affect the international relations of New Zealand. That is not the democratic path to go down. It would be much better to support my amendment and take that particular definition out of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is quite clear that Governments try to keep things under wraps as much as possible; I know that in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee a lot of the documents we are provided by the ministry have bits chopped out. I think that often the ministry chops them out because those bits may embarrass other Governments. Sometimes there is a good reason for it. Other times it is because the ministry does not want to engage in more public diplomacy, and everything is done behind closed doors, and not very effectively. Effects on international relations are matters that are debated in this Parliament, and debated across the community, and people should not be denied visas to come into the country under the cover of classified information. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002255cdc0ec49c84646becad3542a9c6bad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255cdc0ec49c84646becad3542a9c6bad\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on the Immigration Bill. I want to let members know that I will be relying on very fine former Ministers of Immigration to look at the detail of the bill, but I was on the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d6a45fb80845e7a27244eb6b80b3b4\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075fa491566245deb7b0abee8f123c72\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: All three of them, actually. I was on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee chaired by the Hon Vui Mark Gosche. I was on the select committee with David Bennett, who has now taken over the chairing, and is not doing a bad job. He aspires to be like Mark Gosche, but he has not quite got there yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655c0e6d2de547e0b66179d85c009f35\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve gone soft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223188189b260a41aeb58d187428c6c2f0\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is true. I also recognise the officials in the House tonight. We got to know each other rather well, I think, over the very long period that we considered this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAs other speakers have said, Labour supports the bill. We will consider the amendments, because it is a large and difficult bill, and it deals with some very tricky issues. We have to remember when we debate this bill that those on the receiving end of it are real human beings. It will affect people\u2019s lives. During the select committee process, I found some of the issues quite difficult to grapple with. There were things like detention\u2014locking people up\u2014classified information, and special advocates. On the surface, those things seem pretty harsh. But the thing that I primarily learnt in my time considering the bill is that immigration, by its very nature, is discriminatory. There is not a Human Rights Commission aspect to it, where one can say that one group of people should not be treated differently from another, because of human rights legislation. We reserve the right to decide who can live and work in New Zealand, and I support that. I must say also that I support the \u201CKiwis first\u201D policy when it comes to jobs. But I support our doing that in a humane and compassionate way. We have international obligations. We have an international reputation. We are a country of migrants, and we all have stories in our families about those who came here hoping for a better life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to address the purpose clause, and, in particular, clause 3(2)(b)(i), which is about \u201Ccontributing to the New Zealand workforce through facilitating access to skills and labour;\u201D. The bill was drafted, debated, and referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee in very different times from today. It was a time of high employment and of growth, and New Zealand was relying on skilled migrants to fill the gaps in our workforce that we could not fill ourselves. Of course, that has now changed, but during those few years many migrants came here on a promise that they could start a new life here. They thought New Zealand was a good choice. We went out and encouraged them to come here, and we said they would be welcome here. As I said, things have changed dramatically since then, because of the recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to reflect on one particular group of migrant workers who are facing difficulty at the moment. Over the past few weeks, telecommunications workers have been locked in lawful dispute with a contractor called Visionstream over that company\u2019s determination to force those workers into \u201Ctake it or leave it\u201D owner-operator contracts. About 100 migrant workers are affected by that, mainly from the Philippines, but from other countries as well\u2014South Africa, Fiji, India, and others. Many of them live in the North Shore area that I work in, and, indeed, where the Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, works. It is a shocking position that they find themselves in. Some of them left their homes and jobs with the biggest telecommunications employer in the Philippines, and they came here at our invitation, believing that New Zealand was a great choice. We advertised on the Web that it was a wonderful place to come. We needed them, and they were encouraged to come here. We needed them to do the job, because we did not have skilled workers here to do that work. Actually, we still do not. But the workers in that group who are on work permits are in no-man\u2019s land. They have no choice about accepting the owner-operator model, because their permits do not allow it. They cannot swap from being on work permits over to the business migrant category\u2014they just cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EVisionstream has indicated, as I understand it, that it would employ the migrant workers, but only on fixed-term contracts. I am told that Immigration New Zealand has said that is not acceptable. I know they are still waiting to hear, and I know that the Minister of Immigration has said that he is keeping a watching brief on it, and I hope that is right. Even the Hon John Carter, the member for Northland, said to those workers when they came to see him that they should not sign that contract because it is such a bad one. So they wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAnother group within that group of migrant workers managed to get through the work-to-residence requirements and are now New Zealand residents. They have been made redundant. They have been given 4 weeks\u2019 notice with no redundancy pay, nothing. They are not entitled to any assistance\u2014nothing\u2014until they have been here for 2 years. I understand those rules, but the point is that a major New Zealand company is using its power to force its workforce into less pay and poorer conditions. Those migrant workers, who came here with hope, whom we invited here, who have skills we need, and whom we needed at the time, are being thrown on the scrap-heap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI wanted to address the purpose of the bill, but I also want to ask the Minister to do what he can to intervene for those workers. It is a terrible situation. It is not something that any of us feels good about. It is bad for those workers and their families, but it is also bad for New Zealand. It is bad for our reputation. We will need those workers when the economy picks up. We will need migrants, I am told, to look after us when we all grow old. Apparently we will need lots of migrants, so we will have to do a lot better when it comes to how we treat migrant workers. They do have rights; they have rights under our international obligations. But they have rights under New Zealand law, as well. I do not want migrant workers whom we have invited here being put at the top of the list of people we are going to get rid of first. That is happening, as well. They have rights and we need to enforce them. We need to make sure that this particular group of workers are looked after and that we do something about them. I implore the Minister to intervene; otherwise, how would we ever get skilled migrant workers to come here? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbe8b33994484a1bac569092efdb265a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbe8b33994484a1bac569092efdb265a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I think I remarked earlier that there is a 33-page commentary from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the Immigration Bill. The member who has just resumed her seat, Darien Fenton MP, was a valued member of that committee. It is a very short summary of a very extensive set of work that the select committee undertook. How short? It does not even mention that the committee changed the purpose clause just a bit\u2014just a bit! When I look at the old clause 3, I see that it had about 8 lines. The new clause 3, which is the subject of this part of the debate, has about 40 lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI will take members through some of the changes that have been made to the purpose clause, but before I do I echo the sentiments that have been raised by my colleague and friend Darien Fenton. It is of great concern to us to see immigration once more in the political frame associated with an industrial dispute. There is a long-held bipartisan consensus around the principle that jobs ought to be for New Zealanders first, and that immigration can play a valuable role filling the gaps\u2014especially the skill gaps\u2014when they arise. Any suggestion\u2014as has from time to time been raised in the context of the Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme, and now is being raised in the telecommunications sector\u2014that employers might be deliberately letting workers go in order to lower costs, and filling their positions with fixed-term migrant workers, is not in the long-term interests of the Minister in the chair\u2019s colleague, Mr Joyce, who wants to get broadband rolled out, and it is also not in the interests of New Zealand. We are just putting a little flag down around the Visionstream dispute. Hopefully it will all work out; hopefully the workers\u2019 terms and conditions will be revised and peace will break out. That is a little marker of warning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt is probably also worth mentioning in the context of the purpose clause that it is good for everybody if there is a steady and balanced stream of net positive migration into New Zealand. We have a birth rate slightly less than two. We want to grow and develop as a country. We appreciate the skills that people bring in. We have skill gaps to fill. A predictable and steady rate of net inwards migration is a good idea. Under the previous Government it tended to average about 10,000 to 15,000 persons net per annum, and already in the life of this Government we have seen the good old National Government rollercoaster starting up again. Immigration dropped to 3,000 per annum, and it is currently running at\u2014the Minister of Immigration will be able to confirm it\u2014about 3,500 per month net positive. So we are back up towards 30,000 inwards per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EHere is a prediction; members might call me a soothsayer. Given 2 years of that rate of immigration, Winston Peters will rise from the crypt to rally the country against migrants. That is not good for New Zealand, and it is not good for migrant New Zealanders. Maybe he will start in Epsom; I do not know. I want to see every individual human being who comes into this country treated on his or her own merits; a system of infrastructure, including schooling and health care, that can cope with the flow; and that we do not knock the housing market through the roof and force Alan Bollard to\u2014I almost said Don Brash; that was an echo from the past. Of course, he is now gainfully employed tilting the Government to the right, but that is another story. Anyway, we need predictable migration flows in line with the purpose clause, which states that we need to get a balance between the needs of the country for skills and protection for individual rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI hear members ask with bated breath how the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee amended the purpose clause. Why was the purpose clause expanded from eight lines to 38?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a12d8228c1494d948b1b53361b6c87\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It was all the hard work of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e3d053da9984f3db80b64b44c125dd4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: And what a magnificent select committee it was! Let me read out a few of the excellent additions to the purpose clause; it will be a long night. Labour members are here for the duration on this bill, because the flights out of here have already left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daef6813041b4e07af74fb88c2dfa4bc\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: Not all of them. There\u2019s a 9 o\u2019clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b79a72e6ca4dfe94054405610370dd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a night one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002277ec6495-df45-43ac-aaa1-a03b5dd4c128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220547964260b44ee7a8f5acfb17ab7bc4\u0022\u003EJohn Boscawen\u003C/span\u003E: You can still make the 9 o\u2019clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226371cfd51a8a47be892c0f75120839ba\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: In the member\u2019s dreams! It is Thursday night, so he should bring his sleeping bag. He will be here tomorrow and Saturday because Labour members love this bill and we want to give it the attention it deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285fa30bd68f3450ca5549c96712dfd86\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Look how big it is!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b5c899758f408694ac7079ed0dfff7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a big bill, and I am only on clause 3. In particular I am on lines 8 to 35, and I warn you, Mr Chairman, that I may need a second call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Act, of course, is \u201Cto manage immigration in a way that balances the national interest, as determined by the Crown, and the rights of individuals.\u201D That wording is a slight modification from previously. The original clause 3 stated that the purpose of the Act is \u201Cto manage immigration, through balancing the rights of the individual and the national interest \u2026\u201D. The reformulated clause 3(2) states: \u201CTo achieve this purpose, the Act establishes an immigration system that\u2014\u201D, and then it is spelt out in a whole lot more detail. It \u201Crequires persons who are not New Zealand citizens to hold a visa to travel to, and to be granted entry permission to stay in, New Zealand;\u201D. That is an important clause, because, of course, we no longer have visas and permits. Rationality has broken out. It took me about 6 months as Minister of Immigration to work out what the difference was, and now there is no difference, because they are all called visas. This will help the next 15 Ministers that the fine officials have to train, because it will be that much quicker for the new ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f32a29f8374f03bd036bd934fcbffa\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It didn\u2019t take me 6 months to work it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af70374e8534d078b09aab994f7bb0e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is my opportunity to record for posterity that, in my humble opinion, the Hon Lianne Dalziel\u2014I apologise to the current Minister\u2014was the best Minister of Immigration New Zealand has ever seen. I honestly believe that. She was visionary, she was great on the detail, and she brought a lawyer\u2019s mind to the portfolio. I think she was a fantastic Minister, and some of the core principles of this bill go right back to her time as Minister. I say to Lianne that it was a pleasure to learn from her. I will always believe that. But that is enough love in this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EClause 3(2)(b) states that the immigration system \u201Cprovides for the development of immigration instructions for visas that enable people to stay in New Zealand to meet objectives determined by the Minister, which may include objectives such as\u2014(i) contributing to the New Zealand workforce through facilitating access to skills and labour; and (ii) supporting families;\u201D. It was very important that the select committee brought families into the clause. They have been elevated both there and, I believe, later on in the purpose clause where it talks about supporting \u201Cthe settlement of migrants, refugees, and protected persons.\u201D for reunification purposes. Clearly, families are more important in the reformulated purpose clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EA number of paragraphs in clause 3(2)\u2014paragraphs (c), (d), and (e)\u2014start to talk about the role of officials. The immigration system \u201C(c) allows for the management of the immigration aspects of border control \u2026 (d) provides a process for recognising and ensuring compliance with \u2026 international obligations; and (e) includes mechanisms to ensure that those who engage with the immigration system to meet its requirements to gather information \u2026 (ii) allow for deportation \u2026 (f) establishes a specialist tribunal \u2026\u201D, etc. Those paragraphs remind us that inherent in the purpose of the rewrite is to more tightly specify the powers and ambit of officials. I invite the Minister to take a call and explain to the Committee how, in his mind, he has approached the delicate job of balancing the responsibilities of officials with the required limits on official power. With that, I think it is appropriate to invite the Minister to take the next call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00225741642eb4cb45babc25972f22356862\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225741642eb4cb45babc25972f22356862\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I was saying over the dinner break that I was not going to take any more calls on the Immigration Bill\u2014and perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman, will respond to Mr Cunliffe\u2019s earlier comments. But I was moved to take a call, and I suppose it is to make a plea to the Minister. Not long ago\u2014in fact, about 5 minutes ago\u2014I went next door for a short period of time, because my darling wife had said there was a discussion on television that I might be interested in. She said the mayor of Whanganui was on television\u2014a Mr Mark Laws. Is that him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dacab033be244129512916084eaf8e1\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Michael.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1d9c14a3954c96bf8c802bfc400c23\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Michael Laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083efc9cc6454c2da1538e823115fbcb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Whatever you want to call him is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296eafda8757a4ed1a467d01d49fc9657\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, whatever we want to call him. I am sorry; I mispronounced his name. Ken Mair, a good friend of mine, a radical activist from former days, was also on the programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat discussion stirred the blood a bit. I started to wonder why it is that when we start to mention words like \u201Cthe Treaty\u201D and \u201CM\u0101ori rights\u201D, that when we start to fly flags like this one, and that when we start to talk about terms like tino rangatiratanga, for some reason that polarises the country. It seems to put people in the \u201CYeah, I\u2019m with you.\u201D line or the \u201CNo, I hate your guts.\u201D line. Tonight I saw on television a person who is so wound up that he is telling the whole country that Whanganui has its own culture, which has nothing to do with M\u0101oridom. He says the culture has developed over X number of years, and the M\u0101ori perspective, the M\u0101ori t\u012Bkanga, the word \u201CWhanganui\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b163c8c7bf41359e64adf202f2af1a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46e6257bfcc43bfa2af97eabcb4e2a8\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I am getting there, Mr Chairman\u2014have no part to play in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI suppose, to bring my comments back to this bill, this is why I listened to the discussion from the Hon Lianne Dalziel about the place that a Treaty clause might have in this bill. OK, we might not accept the placing of it, but I suppose I am looking to the Minister in the chair and saying to him that if the parties do not accept where the clause should be or the clause itself, I hope we can accept the sentiment behind it. That sentiment is about, I suppose, opening the door on the current issues we face as a country about allowing a space for M\u0101oridom in there somewhere. I listened to the discussion, as I said, from the Hon Lianne Dalziel, and I understood what she was talking about. If Supplementary Order Paper 18 in the name of Hone Harawira is voted down, so be it, but I would really hope that thought is given, in the practical implementation of this bill, to finding that space. I would hate to think that the mayor of Whanganui considers that his\u2014I mean, he said at the end of his comments: \u201CI will fight this with every breath in my body.\u201D, or something like that. That, hopefully, will not\u2014oh, I had better not go there. I suppose it is a sad indictment on our society that we can have that sort of disregard for the place of M\u0101oridom in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat is the point I wanted to make, really. I ask the Minister and his officials to give some consideration, as this bill is passed, to finding that space in the discussion. I would hate to think that just because people happen to put up a flag, wear a T-shirt, or believe that their language and culture are very important to them, other people disregard them. I would hate to think that that is the way our country is heading. I hope it is not, and I hope the Minister will help in placing the practical drop-down effects of our new clause 3A on Supplementary Order Paper 18, if it fails, so it can still find a place in the bill somewhere. I leave that as a thought for us tonight. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00220c7688a2b99246ac822e458d6d5bcfc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c7688a2b99246ac822e458d6d5bcfc8\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a short call, firstly, to address Te Ururoa Flavell\u2019s point about the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper. I reiterate David\u2019s Bennett\u2019s earlier point about this bill being framework legislation. It deals with factors that enable immigration policy. To be honest, when I read Supplementary Order Paper 18, I was not exactly sure what it meant. I can fully appreciate the member\u2019s sentiment that M\u0101ori should be consulted on immigration policy and on long-term discussions about what the New Zealand population might look like in the future. I certainly think that tangata whenua have a place in New Zealand that needs to be preserved, and that they need to be part of that discussion. I would not want the member to think that because we are voting against that Supplementary Order Paper, we do not recognise the rights of tangata whenua to have a major say in what we do in immigration in the long term. Certainly for M\u0101ori Party members, as our coalition partner, my door is literally open to them to come in and talk about these issues. I think we should have a discussion about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI think there might be some misunderstanding about what we are trying to achieve in this bill. This is just a framework within which successive Governments can implement their policies in years to come. I appreciate that there probably is a point Te Ururoa Flavell is making, and I am sure he appreciates the point I have made, but he wants the Supplementary Order Paper tabled to make the broader point. I want to reassure the member about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI will address some of the points that the Green member Mr Locke made about why this bill is being put through under urgency. Well, there are a couple of reasons. Let us look at the history of this bill. The first reading was 2 years ago, and there were years of consultation before that. It has taken a lot of effort to get it to the Committee stage now, so we have to seize this opportunity. But more than that, it will take about 18 months to implement the operational changes that will be required as a result of this legislation. When we look at how the clock is ticking, we can see we have to get this bill through the House as soon as possible in the national interest. When we look at what we have coming up in 2011, we have an event that is of major significance to New Zealand and 18 months of operational changes. If we do not get this bill passed by October, we will really compromise the national interest. That is the reason. There is nothing sinister about it. Immigration New Zealand will have to make a lot of changes; information technology systems will have to be frozen for a period. It will have some major implications for the service. So let me reassure the member about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe member asked about iris scanning and why that should be included, and he suggested that the biometric face recognition and the ten finger and thumbprints should be adequate. One of the points is that we are part of a wider ring, if you like, of Western World security. If other nations are to have confidence in New Zealand\u2019s contribution to that security and in the integrity of our borders, we have to keep in touch and up to speed with what those other nations are doing. If we are the only country within the broad grouping of countries that we are generally aligned with in terms of trade and general foreign interests that they cannot rely on to be strong enough to ensure the integrity of our borders, that is not in the national interest. So we have to keep pace with Australia, Canada, the UK, and the US. It is the way the world is moving. At the end of the day, I think New Zealanders would generally accept that modern world security considerations necessitate this type of measure, and they would certainly prefer that to some of the possible consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe member asked why chief executives of a wide range of Government departments and agencies were able to deem information as classified. If he looks at that list he read out, he will see that all those agencies are related in some way to national security; they are not a random collection. It has been thought through very carefully, and we felt that we needed a wider spread of agencies than those three or four that the member defined. I want to clarify the position on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Labour Party\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper regarding a review clause, Pete Hodgson has put in a couple of options. One of the points to make is that if we are to review this legislation, there are major time commitments and expenditure involved\u2014up to $1 million for one of those options. We will be practical about this legislation. If things are not working, we will change them. But it has taken so long to get to this particular point that we do not feel it will be a good use of officials\u2019 time or parliamentary time to put in a review clause committing Parliament and the Public Service to a whole lot of expenditure and use of resources in a relatively short period from now. I think the purpose of the bill has been well canvassed. Part 1 has been very well canvassed as well, and it is good to see some common sentiment across the Chamber on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 18 in the name of Hone Harawira to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226445caa8112f4231a266458deb8ba9ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000979\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 31 in the name of Keith Locke to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bd86c9a4a42a4620b2e7701c318a2b04\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000980\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 4 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000981\u0022\u003Eto omit, after the words \u201Crelevant agency means the following New Zealand Government agency, as the case may be, that holds, was the source of, or was provided with classified information,\u201D the following:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000982\u0022\u003E(a)\tAviation Security Service\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000983\u0022\u003E(b)\tCivil Aviation Authority of New Zealand\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000984\u0022\u003E(c)\tDepartment of Corrections\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000985\u0022\u003E(d)\tDepartment of Internal Affairs\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000986\u0022\u003E(e)\tDepartment of Labour\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000987\u0022\u003E(g)\tMaritime New Zealand\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000988\u0022\u003E(h)\tMinistry of Agriculture and Forestry\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000989\u0022\u003E(i)\tMinistry of Fisheries\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000990\u0022\u003E(j)\tMinistry of Foreign Affairs and Trade\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000991\u0022\u003E(k)\tNew Zealand Customs Service\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000992\u0022\u003E(l)\tNew Zealand Defence Service\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000993\u0022\u003E(o)\ta government agency established in substitution for or set up to take over any function of a department or agency listed in paragraphs (a) to (n).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022529a0c2aa2dc43b4a66334e1bdeac786\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000994\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 31 in the name of Keith Locke to clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c6519f439b4c46f58d27036685d544a1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000995\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000996\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000997\u0022\u003E6A\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000998\u0022\u003EThis Act will be subject to a full review process, involving public communication, which process must begin no later than 2 years after entry into force and be concluded by a report to Parliament no later than one year after commencement.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d5afe01ccda54745b9a4f440a3a41f64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572000999\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Pete Hodgson be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001000\u0022\u003Eto insert the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001001\u0022\u003E6A\t\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001002\u0022\u003EThis Act will be subject to a full review process, involving public communication, which process must begin no later than 4 years after entry into force and be concluded by a report to Parliament no later than one year after commencement.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220517317cc2974c3cb75ab3fdb6ab5bb1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001003\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 32 in the name of the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman to Part 1, and the following amendment in his name to clause 5C, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001004\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (1), and substitute the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001005\u0022\u003E(1)\tFor the purposes of this Act, a person is deported from a country if the person leaves the country (whether or not at the expense of the government of the country) and an order for the person\u2019s departure made by the government of the country, an authorised official of the country, or a judicial authority in the country, is in force.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001006\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002280802e03330a4a71894dc10695749c81\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e086cf58d7204225ac8a99d25b05f21b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Core provisions and matters in relation to decision making\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00223096756a0a154f3788f8ddb771c4ee52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223096756a0a154f3788f8ddb771c4ee52\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on Part 2 of the Immigration Bill. As I did not have the opportunity to speak on Part 1, I begin by congratulating the officials and the various Ministers who have worked on the bill to this point, and also those hard-working members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, of which I am one. Of course, as I was not here in the previous parliamentary term I did not face the dubious challenge of wading through the several thousand submissions I am sure the committee received on the Immigration Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI will not pretend that I know terribly much about the bill, but I want to make a few comments in relation to Part 2. However, I will preface that by talking a little about the purpose clause. This is reforming legislation to establish a stronger, more flexible, and more enduring legislative foundation, as we know. But really, this legislation is about managing risk. It is the risk that the wrong types of people, micro-organisms, or pathogens will enter this country and put its people and its biosecurity at risk. Once here, the risk also is that those people will be here for the wrong duration, or for a different purpose from that for which their visas were extended. It is also worth recognising that the technologies have changed quite a bit, not only since the Immigration Act 1987 was implemented, but also, I am quite sure, since this process started in 2004. It has been a long time in gestation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe issue in Part 2 is the ability of the immigration authorities to use biomedical and automated systems for identifying people\u2014for example, iris scans. We heard the Green Party member Keith Locke express his serious disquiet about those technologies and the way they could be used or misused. Indeed, the Green Party mentioned those concerns in its minority view. I think it is worth reflecting on technology generally, and the way in which society has introduced it, whether it is fingerprint technologies introduced many, many years ago or DNA testing for criminal inquiries and genetic identification. These new technologies carry with them legitimate and sometimes significant concerns about the way in which they could be used or misused. I think that is the concern that the Green Party and perhaps some others have, so I am pleased to see that the bill contains protections around the use of that information, and in particular the department\u2019s responsibility to complete a privacy impact assessment and to identify the potential effects that the use of this information may have on personal privacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt is another matter altogether whether in practice those processes and protections are strong enough. I think from a legislative perspective, having looked at Part 2 and realising the risks to the country, the bill as laid out provides very adequate protection. I am sure it will be incumbent on the Minister\u2014and I have every confidence that he will do this\u2014to ensure that those technologies are used appropriately. I certainly wish the Minister all the best in that endeavour. Obviously the country wants an Immigration Service that is of world standard, and that has the best technologies and the best processes. I do not think we can say that that has been the case in recent years, for reasons that are well documented and do not need to be gone into again. I think we need to back our Immigration Service and give it the tools and the technologies it needs to improve that performance. These sorts of biometric tools are definitely part of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe other area of Part 2 that I want to touch on briefly is the issue of classified information. This is another area where the Green Party has some concerns. But, again, it comes back to that fundamental risk management strategy. The risks in this area are exceeded by the benefits. I think that we need to measure those clauses in that context. Yes, there are concerns in terms of natural justice and the issues of equity when we are considering the risk assessment of certain immigrants, but I think on balance the need to keep certain information classified is well understood, and I support it. That is all I want to say about Part 2; I commend that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002215f679d8783f45b7abaf19874cd6ad4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215f679d8783f45b7abaf19874cd6ad4b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Immigration Bill has some interesting features to it, but, first of all, I just want to make a couple of points. A point that I did not make before is that I am struggling with the new language: to go from having \u201Cvisa\u201D and \u201Cpermit\u201D to just \u201Cvisa\u201D, and from \u201Cremoval\u201D and \u201Cdeportation\u201D to just \u201Cdeportation\u201D, is a struggle. I will hopefully get over that by the time the law takes effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want to address two things in this part. The Minister of Immigration has picked up one with the officials. Clause 7(1A) does not quite match section 3 of the Immigration Act. I asked him to address that, and he has done so by way of a typescript amendment. It appeared as if we were required as New Zealand citizens to establish our right to be in New Zealand. I have no problem with us establishing our right to enter New Zealand, but I do have a problem with New Zealand citizens having to prove that they have a right to be in New Zealand. We will vote on that amendment later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second issue is a little bit more vexed. Immigration consultants, lawyers, and others will struggle with the loss of section 35A and its replacement by way of clause 52, which is in Part 3. I am not going into Part 3, but I found a little part of the old section 35A tucked away in Part 2. It is clause 14. When clause 14 stands alone it does not make a lot of sense. It states: \u201CNo person who is unlawfully in New Zealand may apply for a visa and, where any such person purports to apply for a visa, it is a matter for the absolute discretion of the Minister.\u201D That clause was tucked away in section 35A(2), and it said that nothing \u201Cconfers on any person the right to apply to the Minister for a permit, and where any person who purports to apply for a permit under this section,\u2014(a) The Minister is under no obligation to consider the application;\u201D. But that is in the context of an obligation to hold a permit. I have a little difficulty with clause 14 being separated from the rest of the old section 35A, which we will all lovingly come to know as section 52 at some later point in time. We will get used to calling it section 52. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI do not raise these things because I am trying to be cute about anything; the bottom line is that these things are fundamentally important to people who are in our country illegally. There are a lot of them at any one time. I have heard the Minister comment about the transitional policy, as it was known in 2000, which was exactly the same as the transitional policy that the Rt Hon Bill Birch organised when he was Minister of Immigration some 10 years before me. He said that not many people\u20146,000 or 7,000\u2014took advantage of the transitional policy to work their way through to residence. In actual fact, a significant number of others did not show up in that figure but actually used section 35A. We had sanctuary days where people could come forward knowing that the Immigration Service would not uplift them and put them on a plane there and then. The service was able to look through their circumstances and say that if the only thing standing in the way of those people applying for residence\u2014which on all other fronts they appeared to qualify for\u2014was their unlawful status, then there was no reason not to put them on a temporary permit so that they could at least test their eligibility for residence under normal policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat process was used extremely effectively. I would not even try to guess how many people got residence that way, but I suggest that it would at least double the number of people that gained residence through the transitional policy. When I was responsible for making discretionary decisions as Minister of Immigration, as I was for the first 2\u00BD years in that position, I used to run that test by the cases that came to me if there was nothing standing in the way bar the unlawful status. Unless there was something dreadfully wrong about the circumstances of their remaining in New Zealand, I would put them on a temporary permit and let them test their status against normal policy. I do not think that was against New Zealand\u2019s interest at all; I certainly commend it to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac758da298f94c63acce633b84d76319\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac758da298f94c63acce633b84d76319\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak to Part 2 of the Immigration Bill, which is actually quite a substantial part. It covers the core provisions and matters in relation to decision making. The Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 32 makes changes to the original bill that impact on Part 2, and I want to talk about those in particular. One of the changes to Part 2 concerns the legislative ability to use biometrics. That is really all about keeping up with technology. I certainly doubt whether biometrics was a commonly used term in 1987 when the Immigration Act 1987 was passed. Biometrics involves the measurement of physical characteristics of a person for use in verifying his or her identity. Biometric information uniquely distinguishes one person from another, and can be used to confirm an individual\u2019s identity. Common forms of this sort of information include photographs and fingerprints, which we use commonly. Other internationally acceptable forms of biometrics are iris scans and voice recognition. I am pretty sure that in 1987 iris scans and voice recognition were probably the stuff of sci-fi movies, and certainly not common practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe use of biometrics in New Zealand\u2019s security system will only enhance security and help protect against identity fraud. Biometric identity information is increasingly being used in other countries, and is regarded as essential to modern immigration and border systems. Traditional, paper-based identity documents have become inadequate to manage identity fraud, and we are all very familiar with the cases that have been in our own media of people whose identities have been stolen, and the absolute anguish that they have had to suffer trying to prove their own identity. It is tragic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EPeople are very much aware now that huge personal damage can be caused by identity fraud, and that it can be quite time consuming to prove. The feeling is that biometrics will help improve the integrity of the immigration system in terms of confirmation in immigration decision-making, providing greater assurance in identity fraud, detecting non-citizens posing risks to New Zealand, allowing for processing immigration applications more quickly and effectively, facilitating the processing of arrivals at the border and New Zealand citizens, and taking advantage of technology to automate the current face-to-passport check that is a standard aspect of current border processing. Biometric identity information is increasingly being used in comparable countries such as Australia, Canada, and the United States, and is regarded as an essential modern immigration tool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill, as far as its legislative ability to use biometrics goes, enables the future collection and use of specified biometric information for identity verification purposes, including collection, storage, and use of photographs, fingerprints, and iris scans of foreign nationals to verify their identity and check their character; use of photographs of New Zealand citizens to verify their identity and confirm their citizenship; and the ability to share biometric information nationally and internationally in certain circumstances, which are being proposed by way of the Supplementary Order Paper before us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe changes to the biometric provisions will ensure New Zealand has up-to-date and internationally comparable measures to address immigration and identity fraud. This Supplementary Order Paper and Part 2 are all about taking part in the modern technology that is in front of us, and making sure that we can make use of that technology going forward, so that we have the ability to keep up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EAlso in Part 2 are clauses that relate to a new classified information system with special safeguards. This bill enables classified information to be used in immigration, and in refugee and protection decision-making, with special safeguards. It can be used only when the Minister of Immigration agrees, and the information relates to security or criminal conduct. The special safeguards to the classified information system are included to balance the right of the Government to use all available information to choose who may travel to, enter, and stay in New Zealand, and the rights of foreign nationals. Classified information obviously has to be used very carefully, and to date has been very rarely used. It is used only when there are very special circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00227266d8fd90d9422fb3955f9430e62957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227266d8fd90d9422fb3955f9430e62957\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will provide an explanation of my amendment to clause 30, which is a clause dealing with the use of classified information in decision making. The amendment particularly seeks to delete subclause (2) of that clause, which relates to refugee and protection decision-making claims. There is good backing for my amendment, because internationally the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees very strongly states that classified information should not be used in that way. In fact, in a discussion paper during the earlier review period for the Immigration Act changes the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, under point 21 of its paper, said \u201CAs acknowledged in the discussion paper, refugee/protection decision-making is different from standard immigration decision-making. Accordingly, UNHCR urges the Government of New Zealand to maintain the status-quo and not adopt practices that allow asylum claims to be determined and rejected on the basis of classified information. Classified information should not be used unless declassified and shared with all parties concerned. In UNHCR\u2019s view, such a practice would be at variance with international standards of best practice.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAmnesty International backs that up. It says in its paper: \u201CAINZ therefore concurs with the UNHCR recommendation to maintain the status quo and that classified information should not be used unless it is disclosed to the claimant and open to challenge. As it stands, clause 30 could see asylum-seekers disadvantaged by denying them natural justice, and is contrary to the practice in similar jurisdictions, including Canada, The UK, and Australia.\u201D Amnesty International seeks the removal of the clause 30 extension to asylum seekers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo there is good backing for my Supplementary Order Paper, and the reason is a very practical one, too. A lot of false information about asylum seekers comes into the hands of Immigration New Zealand and the hands of appeal bodies. It comes in because asylum seekers come from situations of conflict, situations of repression, and situations where the Government of their country is not particularly keen on them, because they are very often dissidents or religious minorities. Because of that, incorrect prejudicial information comes through the system, and lands in New Zealand. Also, because asylum seekers often come from politically or religiously divided countries, the communities here spread rumours. One group could be against another group because it reflects political or religious difference from their home country, so false information about these people is fed into the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESometimes even more democratic allies of the countries where the asylum seekers come from spread false information. We can look just at the Ahmed Zaoui case, where the French Government explicitly supported the military dictatorship in Algeria. So it was in the French Government\u2019s interest to spread false information about Ahmed Zaoui, who was a democratic opponent of the military dictatorship in Algeria. That is what came through the system, and that is what caused a whole lot of problems in the system\u2014this democrat was subject to false information by not only the military dictatorship in Algeria but also its democratic allies in Europe. So I think it is important to support my amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere are a number of improvements in this part, some of them relating to the questions I have just talked about. For instance, one of the improvements is to make sure that when classified information is provided, it is provided in a balanced way, so that it contains not only the negative information about someone but also the positive information. In the Zaoui case, right at the end of the process, after years and years, the SIS admitted that it did have quite a bit of positive information as well as the negative stuff that came from overseas. That information was put on the table and it was one of the reasons the security risk certificate was taken off him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI will briefly indicate a couple of other positive developments. The committee did a good job on bringing about these positive developments. One of the things that has been mentioned already is bringing in the Privacy Commissioner and adopting a whole procedure of privacy orders when biometric systems are being brought into the immigration processing system. That was a progressive change. Also there was improvement in clause 32, where the protection of classified information did not limit the application of the Ombudsmen Act, the Official Information Act, and the Privacy Act. That was a good step forward, so the committee did quite a good job in bringing in a number of improvements\u2014although not sufficient, in terms of the overall context of the bill\u2014to meet with the Green Party\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002204eb7f664ebc4e5189d16ac350b0709c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204eb7f664ebc4e5189d16ac350b0709c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Labour\u2014Dunedin North):\u003C/span\u003E I need just a 60-second call, I think, to conclude Labour\u2019s contribution to Part 2. I congratulate the Government and the Minister on ensuring that we have a fix in Supplementary Order Paper 32 as it affects school children who are the children of people who might be here unlawfully. Clause 14A states that if one is here unlawfully one cannot work or study, and now there is a Supplementary Order Paper stating that that provision applies unless one is a pupil in primary or secondary school, and that is great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt is a matter of fact that in the term of our Government, when this law was not in place, we were having to do this by Cabinet directive. It may even be the case that the incoming Cabinet was perhaps not as aware of it and did not maintain pressure on officials, because there seem to have been many instances of kids who were not going to school when they should have been going to school\u2014and they were not going to school only because they were the children of parents who were here unlawfully and had therefore been damaged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt does not fix the problem entirely because, of course, the mum or dad still may not want to send their kids to school and have the school know their home address. But it does mean, as I understand it, that those children can go to school free of charge, just as an exchange student can come from France to New Zealand and attend school free of charge. To the extent that that is the case, well and good, and, in any case, the immigration impediment is now gone, and the Government should be congratulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1cf01758afd4e73b128805b24a71877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1cf01758afd4e73b128805b24a71877\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E In response to Pete Hodgson\u2019s comments, yes, this situation was drawn to my attention through the whole Gerrard \u014Ctimi saga, which highlighted the plight of overstayers. It became apparent that we had hundreds of overstayer children, many of them in South Auckland, who were literally just not going to school. We do not want to say that there is a clear path, through overstaying, to gain residence in New Zealand, but neither do we want children penalised by their parents\u2019 actions. What this effectively does is allow the Minister of Education to allow these children to go to school while their parents\u2019 immigration status is being sorted out. So we are not saying: \u201CWell, look, overstayers, your children can go to school indefinitely, don\u2019t worry about normalising your immigration status.\u201D I think, though, I agree that it is an improvement on the situation we had before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn terms of Lianne Dalziel\u2019s point about the immigration amnesty, I think the point about amnesties is that they send the wrong signals. They send a signal that it is a path to residency, and I think it penalises people who follow the set procedure and comply with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dce6031eb1f407dae3f2e512bf800b7\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t advocating one; I was advocating sanctuary days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8cc9c679a9414aa790bc73356d8c27\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Effectively, the point I am making is that with the amnesty the Government gave around 2001, over 18 months the number of overstayers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde00009e8354947ab200f4eb4a0c9ef\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: And the amnesty National gave in 1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228839a8f5b55c42769b6fafc000e9cf24\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not blaming the last Government, but I am talking about the general concept of amnesties for overstayers. Eighteen months after the 2001 amnesty the numbers of overstayers had actually risen again, so it does not seem that the concept works in decreasing overstaying rates overall. I think the educational side is far more effective. Over time, including during the period under that member\u2019s Government, the numbers of overstayers have come down and we want to continue the trend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI think we have canvassed the use of biometrics. The other point on Part 2 that I will make and that we have not touched on yet is that there is a provision here to allow immigration information to be shared across Government agencies to ensure that people who are not entitled, by dint of not having the correct immigration status, are not able to access free public services, whether those are health and disability services, or some of the benefits that Work and Income offers. The Supplementary Order Paper is far more specific about the types of information that various services can ask to access from Immigration New Zealand. There is provision for biometric information to be shared in the future. At the moment law enforcement agencies do not have the technology to analyse biometric information, but no doubt as technology increases and becomes more sophisticated that may happen in the future. I think this is an important safeguard of public services for the people who are entitled to them. The broader points about biometrics have been well canvassed, and it is good to see once again a broad consensus across the Chamber on this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 32 in the name of the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman to Part 2, and the following amendment in his name to clause 7, be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1A) \u201Cand be in\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8e0899c41644afa2085146513e009d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Locke, I have bad news for you. The Clerk advises that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 30 have been agreed to. Now that we have passed those, your amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 31 to clause 30 is inconsistent with the previous decision of the Committee. Therefore your amendment is out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223315ce56cddc4949879456fd3e6be579\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b5e764263414beeb000c9f176cca17a\u0022\u003EPart 3  Visas\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5ef35046b1c4c57a93748ca58e419f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5ef35046b1c4c57a93748ca58e419f9\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I will take what I trust will be a relatively short call on Part 3 of the Immigration Bill. Part 3 is another very substantial part of this bill. It establishes a universal visa system. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee did quite a bit of work around this area, and recommended a number of minor and technical amendments. As a result of that work, Part 3 has a greater clarity about it and reads in a more logical fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe National Government certainly supports a simpler visa system. The single term \u201Cvisa\u201D will replace the terms currently used in the Immigration Act 1987: \u201Cvisa\u201D, \u201Cpermit\u201D, and \u201Cexemption\u201D. Instead, the term \u201Cvisa\u201D will be the only term used, and there will be three types of visa: residence class, temporary entry class, and transit. As I have said, the purpose of this change is to simplify things. The bill establishes a universal visa system that maintains flexibility in managing people\u2019s travel into New Zealand and their time while in New Zealand. The bill gets rid of the old distinctions so we will no longer talk about visas, permits, and exemptions. It uses the one term to refer to the authority to travel to, to enter, and to stay in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EA universal visa system means that all foreign nationals require a visa to be in New Zealand. Visas can be granted, or they can be deemed to have been granted. That is to maintain flexibility in managing risk and the range of unique circumstances under which a foreign national may enter New Zealand. I am interested to note that, for example, a visa may be deemed to be granted when a foreign national enters New Zealand territory in Antarctica. This is because he or she may travel directly to Antarctica from another country, rather than through New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a new concept in allowing interim visas to be granted for the purpose of maintaining a foreign national\u2019s lawful status in New Zealand where he or she has applied for a further visa and his or her application is under consideration. That is fair, reasonable, and proper. It is a positive change that should benefit foreign nationals who wish to extend their stay in New Zealand. I commend Part 3 to the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00225c08ce23a690434f9eabc870227e5c5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c08ce23a690434f9eabc870227e5c5d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of the Immigration Bill contains the clause that will become known as section 52. That section replaces section 35A of the Immigration Act, which we all are used to today. Of course, every member of this House, particularly constituency MPs who have undertaken constituency casework in the immigration area, will know that this is the section under which cases are taken to the Minister of Immigration. Often it is the absolute last resort as somebody desperately tries to have his or her issues addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI do not want anyone to think that section 35A and the new section 52 are actually all about the most gut-wrenching of circumstances. I got into a taxi the other day, and I had ordered the taxi using just my first name. The taxi driver picked me up from Parliament, and when I got into the taxi he said: \u201CIt\u2019s Lianne Dalziel, isn\u2019t it?\u201D. I said yes, and then he said that I was the reason that his mother-in-law is allowed to live in this country. It was so nice. This was really important because there had been a change in policy, and we said that when we changed the policy we would allow a little more discretion, a little more flexibility, and a slightly more humanitarian approach over that transitional period. That is what we did for his mother-in-law. It was not part of an amnesty or transitional policy in that respect; she really did qualify under the previous policy, but she missed out under the new policy. For the sake of the family, who were well-settled in New Zealand, we made a decision to intervene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAnother case was recently brought to my attention by my sister. She spoke at a conference in a different city from the one where I live. My sister said that she had been picked up at the airport, and that the woman who had picked her up had not realised that she was my sister until right at the very end of the presentation. My sister, who is a very clever presenter on issues of privacy, actually said to the audience\u2014and I am getting a bit sick of it really\u2014\u201CI suppose you have all been wondering. No, she is not my mother.\u201D She continues to say that, but I tell her that as she gets older she will not be able to say it any more. But this woman just froze, and after everyone had gone, as she was taking my sister away, she burst into tears and hugged her. She said that I had saved her life. The reason she said that was that I had allowed her to come to New Zealand when she was at high risk of consequences from a severely violent domestic relationship in another country. She did not qualify under our strict criteria, but under this provision\u2014section 35A; the new section 52, as it will become known\u2014we allowed her to stay. That is the importance of this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason I got up to speak on this part is that I think it is really important that we think very carefully about how this discretion is exercised. It must be exercised without fear or favour. There are National MPs in this House who know that I exercise that discretion without fear or favour. I recall that one of the very first phone calls I got after I became Minister of Immigration in 1999 was from Tony Ryall. He said he had had contact with people from Zimbabwe who were really concerned about their ability to get to New Zealand. They had relatives here. They could not buy a ticket home because they were not really going to go home, and they asked whether there was something we could do about it. I took that to Cabinet straight away, we intervened, and we created a special policy that enabled a group of people to come to New Zealand. Thank goodness we did! If we look at the consequences of what happened to those who remained, we will see that we did a very good thing. That was an approach from a National Party member. I think it is always important to remember that we are all members of Parliament representing our constituencies, and those constituents must be treated without fear or favour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will not go through the particular examples of the cases where I have felt it has been a bit disappointing of late in terms of the intervention. But if we do not hold on to that principle, then we will lose it. I think it is very important that Ministers are able to look at the very human side of immigration, which are circumstances that we ourselves would not think could possibly happen to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022211eae1738b6439a9d0b5a2681222ef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022211eae1738b6439a9d0b5a2681222ef4\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow on from the two speeches that have been made on Part 3 of the Immigration Bill. The first speech, made by Allan Peachey, was a very good explanation of what is happening in this part. Basically we are replacing a series of visas with a much more simplistic system whereby people have a common visa. There are some differences for people who come into the country under limited visas, but essentially the bill replaces the present complex system with something a lot simpler and easier to manage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think Lianne Dalziel made some very good points. All members of this House will have engaged in the activity of assisting their constituents through the immigration process. For constituent MPs, especially in an urban constituency, that is probably the bulk of our work. In my constituency about 70 percent of my work is on immigration-related issues. We are constantly doing that work. Immigration is one of the few areas where there are discretions. If people do not pay their taxes, there is not a lot we can do. But if someone wants to stay in New Zealand, we have the ability to advocate on that person\u2019s behalf to the Minister or to the Department of Labour. I must admit that during the term I have been in this House, both Labour and National have been very good to deal with in respect of immigration cases, and we expect that to continue in the future so that constituent MPs can represent their people and assist them in areas of concern to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think this visa process goes to a fundamental question. We have a problem in immigration in New Zealand in that we do not specify to people who come into New Zealand what holding a temporary visa actually means. When people enter New Zealand on a work permit or a visitor\u2019s visa, it is a temporary visa. There is no way of looking at it other than that: it is a temporary visa. If someone comes in under a residency programme, the system is different. Once a lot of migrants and a lot of people who come to New Zealand as visitors or on a work permit get settled here, they forget that they came in on a temporary visa and have an expectation that they will be able to stay here. Their children have been born here, their children are attending school here, and they have built up family connections. They have friends, a community has been built around them, and they have a work environment. They have made New Zealand their home. It normally takes a couple of years to do that, and they do not then realise that they entered New Zealand on a temporary visa. They are the people who come to our offices and say that they have sons or daughters born here, and they have worked for 3 or 4 years in New Zealand industries when we have wanted them to. They ask what the story is, and say that they need to be able to stay in New Zealand. That situation has been going on for many, many years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe crucial point is that we need to educate people, when they come to the border, on what their visa status actually is. People need to understand what a temporary visa is, in comparison with a long-term visa, leading to residency. That is a major part of the way that people live their lives while they are here. If they do not understand that difference, they can easily forget their entry point and then have an unrealistic expectation when compared with the original visa they entered New Zealand on. I think the approach taken here will assist in that education process. We need to engage in education so that people do not have unrealistic expectations, and so that they have a sense of certainty about their status. There is nothing worse for people living in a country that they have made their home than to find that they do not have the status they thought they had. That is the situation that we are confronted with time and time again as constituent members of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think this is an important aspect of the bill, both from the policy that it represents and also from the need to educate people who come into New Zealand so that we give the right signals and people can understand the journey that can come with being a New Zealand resident and then a New Zealand citizen. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00223efdc13621e241f0b64e59ebdc6b3aeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223efdc13621e241f0b64e59ebdc6b3aeb\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It has been quite useful to listen to the tales from Lianne Dalziel and others on the immigration cases that come before us. I think one thing that humanises all members of Parliament is that each of us has immigration cases. We all have to show our real compassion when dealing with those cases, and, when making our submissions on them, we have to try to get the Associate Minister of Immigration to show that compassion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think that in the case of clause 52, which has been referred to by other speakers, it is very useful to take into account the many varied circumstances that people and families find themselves in. Unfortunately that seems to be a little countered from another direction in the New Zealand Immigration Service, and that is through the immigration profiling group, which seems to go to great lengths holding up a lot of quite valid cases for temporary visas or other visas. Although it is very good to have this provision on exceptional circumstances in clause 52, it really should not be up to the Minister to correct so many wrong decisions of the New Zealand Immigration Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other type of visa I would like to talk about a little bit, and which is included in Part 3, is the transit visa. I think New Zealand has got a bit carried away with transit visa procedures over the last little while, and that is upsetting many people, particularly in the Indian community. There are a whole range of countries, particularly richer countries, whose citizens have visa-free entry to New Zealand and therefore can arrive and just come in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ETransit through New Zealand does not create a problem if someone is coming from Europe and stopping off in New Zealand before they go off to Niue, Fiji, or wherever. But it is a particular problem for people from some other countries such as India, where people now have to trot down to the high commission in New Delhi or wherever to get a transit visa just to be able to sit for one hour in a lounge at Auckland Airport, having come in on a plane that happens to stop in Auckland on its way to Niue, Cook Islands, or wherever it might be. It is just bureaucratic madness, really. There might be a very slight security ground for it, but I think we must have a balanced system of procedures and must not exaggerate threats. So the procedures for transit visas are creating a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn respect of temporary visas, it is true that often people do not understand quite what a temporary visa is. But, that being said, I think that about 180,000 people are here on work visas, and only a smaller proportion of them are on work-to-residence visas. A lot of those people have their whole family with them. They have come over here to try to start a new life, and they think their skills are needed here. When they have employment they have a future ahead of them; then all of a sudden there is a bit of a recession, they get laid off, and\u2014bang\u2014they are kicked out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think the Government and the Minister should put in place systems to cater for the recession so that people can have extensions, particularly people who have been here for a while on work visas. That is another side of our compassion, and it has a practical use too, because when there is a bit of an upturn, all of a sudden we turn around and say: \u201CWe need these skilled people. Where are they? Oh, they\u2019ve disappeared overseas; we kicked them out.\u201D Working out ways to allow more skilled people to stay here is quite useful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002204c9b89dda384a169188e21db20451d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204c9b89dda384a169188e21db20451d2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I will follow up on the comment that David Bennett made, which flows on exactly from the point that Keith Locke was making. People are told to apply for temporary visas to come here to look for the job that they know will lead them to residence. They are told that in the London branch of Immigration New Zealand; they are told that in various offices around the world. David Bennett can shake his head all he likes; I know that people are told to do that. It is very simple for somebody who does not need to apply for a visa: they can come here for 3 months visa free and they can apply for an extension when they get here. A lot of people come to New Zealand on a temporary visa on their journey to residence, and it is a perfectly legitimate way to use the policy to get here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that there are people in this country at the moment who are working on a work-to-residence permit. If they are made redundant, they are given up to 3 months by Immigration, depending on which office they deal with. If they do not find an equivalent job\u2014they have to get a job that meets the points they have claimed under their expression of interest\u2014then basically they are told to go. That is the story that was on the front page of the Press. I tell this Chamber that that story on the front page of the Press cost us big time as far as skilled migrants coming to New Zealand from the UK is concerned. That is exactly the point that Keith Locked made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhen we hit a recession we have to have a mechanism for just seeing us through. Quite frankly, letting people who are on that direct route to residence have an open work permit until the recession is over would be a much better idea. They would not be able to apply for benefits, so if they could not find a way of looking after themselves in the meantime, they would go of their own accord. But they will not be front-page news because Immigration has told them they have to go. People have failed to cotton on to that point as far as this recession goes. We will need those skills again, yet we are telling those people that we will flick them even if they are on a route to residence. We will flick them if they do not meet the criteria after being made redundant in these circumstances. Jim Anderton and I have written to the Minister of Immigration about that point. We want to talk to him about it. I hope that he sees this as an opportunity to test the bona fides of what we want to do. We want to do it for our country. We think New Zealand\u2019s reputation will be on the line if we continue to have those stories in our media. They are reported on the other side of the world instantaneously, as the Minister knows, and it is costing us big time reputationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 32 in the name of the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022695263a1687f4d7daa8e8918d9f5a319\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abdbb5411f3d437282b74d0c9a5edcf5\u0022\u003EPart 4  Arrivals and departures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd17841bd58742adbaff4684a325bab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd17841bd58742adbaff4684a325bab3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E I am so pleased to be able to speak to Part 4 of the Immigration Bill, and to speak only positively about advanced passenger processing. I was the Minister of Immigration when we introduced advanced passenger processing, and it was a very proud moment in my life. Extending the border offshore is certainly something that is of significant benefit. But it does raises privacy issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI will share a recollection I have of a privacy seminar that I spoke at, a short while after we had moved to introduce this measure. Justice Michael Kirby was speaking at the seminar as well; in fact, he was opening it. It was a very interesting debate, because he raised the question of the vast quantities of information held by airlines. It was a significant privacy issue, given that the information was in the hands of private organisations, and some State-owned organisations. Huge amounts of information are held by these carriers. The point he was making, though, was whether it was an appropriate digression from normal principles of privacy to allow those vast quantities of information to be brought together. His view was that there was a difference with the airlines bringing people into Australia or New Zealand\u2014those were the examples that he was using. In neither Australia nor New Zealand does one have to produce an ID card just to be walking down the street. There are countries in the world where one has to produce an ID card if asked to do so. In New Zealand and Australia, something that we actually value about living here is that we do not have to have ID cards. He said that for us to be part of a process that enables us to know who is coming here, who they are, where they have come from, and why they are coming here, that is perfectly acceptable. I think that goes a considerable way to meeting a lot of the concerns that people have about information that is being held by carriers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think it is important that we can shift the border offshore, because we can manage a lot of the concerns we have as a small isolated island State and a lot of the risk around our borders. We are subject to some of the concerns that overseas countries have to deal with on an hourly basis, although in New Zealand it is on a daily basis, a weekly basis, or a monthly basis. So I am very supportive of this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9b5519e4cf4301a70ec57ad08d8248\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9b5519e4cf4301a70ec57ad08d8248\u0022\u003EMICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E We are getting into the detail of the Immigration Bill, and Part 4 is very much a process part of the bill. As the previous speaker mentioned\u2014quite glowingly, I think, given her being the person who thought of it\u2014this part also relates to the processes around advanced passenger processing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI come back to the comment that the member for Dunedin North made about Part 1, particularly around the issue of review, because it is relevant to Part 4 in the context of the Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister of Immigration has brought forward. In fact, Mr Hodgson tabled an amendment for a review of this bill within 2 years, or alternatively 4 years. That amendment probably had members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee shivering in their boots when they thought about the fact that this bill has taken nearly 5 years to get to the Committee stage. I completely understand what the member was trying to do, but certainly a review in 2 years\u2019 time would not be anything like as comprehensive as the making of this legislation. The member agreed that there were other ways to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EOne way, I think, is to future-proof the legislation to enable those sorts of changes to be effected as opportunities and technologies come about. The Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper in relation to pre-screening and the trans-Tasman agreement that has been reached between Kevin Rudd and the Prime Minister is a very good example of the sort of future-proofing that we can do. We have here an amendment that will enable the processing of passengers before they get on to the plane from a biosecurity and a passport control perspective, and that will certainly speed up the process at the point of embarkation. I think that is a really good example of not waiting for a review to make that change, but also of future-proofing, because the provision does not just apply to a trans-Tasman service; it is written in a way that could apply to any international inbound service to or from New Zealand, albeit it would probably be most effective in a point-to-point transfer, and if a stop-off was required in transit in the Middle East or South-east Asia the system might be a little less effective. Nevertheless, we have future-proofed this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI also want to mention again biometric testing. Whereas in Part 2 we had the power of the Immigration Service to require biometric testing, we now have, in Part 4, an obligation on the passenger to supply that information. The same sorts of risks and onuses both on the passenger and on the Immigration Service remain, and I do not think it is worth relitigating that. But I acknowledge that this is another part where the obligation now falls on the passenger. We are into the business end of the bill and I certainly commend Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3381ed65fc14d3f8a28ba089b9810d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3381ed65fc14d3f8a28ba089b9810d6\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Although there are benefits from Advance Passenger Processing overseas, there are also downsides from that, and those have been identified by Amnesty International and the Human Rights Commission in their submissions to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the Immigration Bill. I have an amendment to clause 89 to try to correct that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBoth the Human Rights Commission and Amnesty International say clause 89 may infringe article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, according to which every person has the right to seek asylum. That is from the Amnesty International submission, and the Human Rights Commission\u2019s submission is very similar in that respect. Clause 89 could also infringe New Zealand\u2019s adherence to the 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, because it is out of the spirit of that convention to prevent asylum seekers from hopping on a plane to come to New Zealand to claim asylum, particularly, perhaps, when they are coming from a rather repressive country. I think New Zealand has flights arriving from Dubai and Shanghai\u2014places with repressive Governments. There may be asylum seekers from those countries, and under clause 89 of the bill the aircraft carriers are supposed to deny those asylum seekers the right to get on a plane if they do not have fully effective documentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI have set out on Supplementary Order Paper 31 in my name an amendment to rectify that by adding to clause 89(1) the following paragraph: \u201C(e) that the carrier or person or person in charge of any craft cannot be held responsible under subsection (1)(a) if the passenger is to claim asylum in New Zealand under the Refugee Convention 1951.\u201D This amendment makes it clear that if someone comes off a plane in Auckland from Dubai or Beijing and claims asylum, then the carrier does not have any responsibility for that. It is important to put that provision into the legislation. Otherwise we are violating, as I said, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and our adherence to the 1951 convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlready the number of people who are claiming asylum at the border has gone down to virtually single figures, I think, and that is partly because of the Advance Passenger Processing system. We are already lucky, in that we are at the end of the chain in terms of the desire of people to claim asylum here, compared with, say, countries in Europe. We should not put additional legal barriers in the way of asylum seekers. It is a very important part of having a compassionate society that we should be open to people who come here to seek asylum. We cannot glory in having such a dramatic drop in the number of applications that we are receiving; that is not the mark of the humanitarian society that we should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f10c959b74d34988b371c62cebdf0a62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f10c959b74d34988b371c62cebdf0a62\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call on Part 4, which concerns arrivals and departures. This is not a contentious area at all. It does not deviate too much from the original 1987 Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI will make some comments about advance passenger identification. I think that is obviously a very important way that we can screen arrivals in New Zealand. I have had a tour of Auckland International Airport, and I was able to look at the very sophisticated ways in which immigration staff look at on-board profiling and pre-board screening. It is very sophisticated, and clearly that is the way to go to prevent people from reaching our borders and to stop them getting to our borders in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes immigration control areas for immigration processing and maintains advance passenger processing obligations. In the debate on Part 2 we talked about biometric screening, and clearly that is the way of the future. Part 4 states that passengers travelling to New Zealand are obligated to provide biometric information. I note in clause 110A that people who are leaving must also allow biometric information to be obtained from them. I think that this is a non-contentious part of Part 4, and I commend this part to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 31 in the name of Keith Locke to clause 89 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002246affe5b1f35487392e94a0fcb1a239c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001086\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 32 in the name of the Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001087\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e04e0b6695e044daa19a034f5f2ace4a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 58; New Zealand Labour 43; ACT New Zealand 5; Progressive 1; United Future 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9; M\u0101ori Party 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00224fae6bfad1d54b7a8ac375709e215acd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fae6bfad1d54b7a8ac375709e215acd\u0022\u003EHon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Committee to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9923d4165414e959aede4a71386802b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200909157e4db42c3f9d40e18cc7e60782400572001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 8.51 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"